ITALY | High Speed Rail [Archive]

ricu__

February 23rd, 2007, 04:38 PM

Italian TAV

TAV (treno ad alta velocità) is a special purpose owned by RFI for planning and construction of high-speed rail lines along italy's most important and saturated transport routes. The porpose of TAV construction is to aid travel along Italy's most saturated and used rail lines and to add tracks to these lines, namely the Milano-Napoli (Milan-Naples) and Torino-Milano-Venezia corridors. One of the focuses of the project is to turn the rail network of Italy into a modern and high -teach system of passneger. A secondary purpose is to indroduce high-speed rail to the country and its hight-priority corridors. An important consideration of the lines is to improve travel times, train frequency, and safety. When demand on regular linesis lessened with the opening of dedicated high-speed lines, those regular lines will be used primarily for low-speed regional and city rail service. With these ideas realised, the italian train network can be integratedwith other european rail networks.
In Italy, the dominant method of transport is the use of automobiles and the motorway network. There is a very strong divide of how people and goods are transported, the majority being carried using cars and trucks. In Italy There are metro system in Rome, Milan, Naples, Torino, Genova and Catania and tram systems in city like Milano, Naples, Roma, Torino, Florence, Palerm, Bergamo and Sassari. In other 20 city there are great trolley bus systems. A major reason to develop a highly developed and systematic rail network in the country is to encourage a sense of competitiveness between different modes of transport and to improve an under-utilised and aging rail infrastructure.

http://i9.tinypic.com/2j2st9t.png http://i12.tinypic.com/2lsi9tl.gif

http://i17.tinypic.com/2gxkazb.png
http://i18.tinypic.com/35bcrb4.jpg
work in progress (Rome)

http://i9.tinypic.com/4d3i90x.jpg
http://i12.tinypic.com/2usy535.gif

http://i18.tinypic.com/434rcj9.gif
http://i12.tinypic.com/29aws4g.jpg

http://i16.tinypic.com/2l93aky.jpg
http://i13.tinypic.com/2upxnqa.jpg

http://i9.tinypic.com/2zs8eug.jpg
http://i19.tinypic.com/2q24phl.jpg
http://i19.tinypic.com/48vyotu.jpg

The messina's bridge (will link Sicily and south Italy)

New railway stations:
Florence
http://i16.tinypic.com/4bh1tmd.jpg
http://i13.tinypic.com/2duz4g4.jpg
http://i19.tinypic.com/2v0iqz8.jpg
http://i17.tinypic.com/4gtc07t.jpg

Napoli
http://i17.tinypic.com/3yg4wtv.jpg
http://i17.tinypic.com/4gpfo6g.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/33f8hhi.jpg

Roma
http://i12.tinypic.com/2uqi3xe.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/44hb8fa.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/317coz6.jpg
http://i16.tinypic.com/2d6thec.jpg

Torino
http://i9.tinypic.com/2zogirk.jpg
http://i13.tinypic.com/34eoyh4.jpg

Milano
http://i15.tinypic.com/2h33969.jpg
http://i19.tinypic.com/43qdrt2.jpg

www.trenitalia.it
http://www.en.tav.it/
http://www.strettodimessina.it/

ricu__

February 23rd, 2007, 06:13 PM

the new Reggio Emilia TAV station

http://i13.tinypic.com/2da111e.jpg

http://i17.tinypic.com/2zow55v.jpg

http://i17.tinypic.com/46y0x6q.jpg

Federicoft

February 23rd, 2007, 07:10 PM

Strait of Messina bridge thank God was finally discarded.

frozen

February 23rd, 2007, 09:34 PM

Spettacolare!! :) :) :)

GENIUS LOCI

February 24th, 2007, 04:25 PM

Strait of Messina bridge thank God was finally discarded.Finally?
I'm not sure

sdf11

March 5th, 2007, 01:07 AM

http://i19.tinypic.com/43qdrt2.jpg

Italy need it a lot. . . . .
The rail station of the richest city in Italy it's really poor. . .

GENIUS LOCI

March 5th, 2007, 04:51 PM

Poor?

I don't understand what you mean with poor

If you mean that it looks a bit oldand too dirty, you're right; but now they're completely restructuring it

If you mean they have to tear down (or partly tear down) the station to add a new futuristic structure it would sound to me as a vandalic act... :)

Enzo911

March 5th, 2007, 06:20 PM

http://i17.tinypic.com/46y0x6q.jpg

I love this one

elfabyanos

March 6th, 2007, 11:59 AM

Italy need it a lot. . . . .
The rail station of the richest city in Italy it's really poor. . .

All I remember about that station is acres of gorgeous stone and being really bloody clean. And then you exit onto that lovely square with a fountain. Brilliant.

TohrAlkimista

March 28th, 2007, 05:02 PM

Which TAV-Station is projected by Zaha Hadid? the one in Napoli?

TohrAlkimista

March 28th, 2007, 05:03 PM

All I remember about that station is acres of gorgeous stone and being really bloody clean. And then you exit onto that lovely square with a fountain. Brilliant.

do you mean Milano Centrale?

Fanatic74

March 28th, 2007, 05:20 PM

mah io avrei aspettato ancora qualche anno prima di inziare:bash:
ma perchè siamo ridotti cosi male??

TohrAlkimista,a parte Chuck Norris e Mc Giver,condivido perfettamente quello che è riportato nella tua firma,parole sante :lol:

-{ Rick }-

March 29th, 2007, 03:42 AM

Which TAV-Station is projected by Zaha Hadid? the one in Napoli?

Yep :cheers:

TohrAlkimista

March 29th, 2007, 10:40 AM

Rick ma perchè non apriamo un 3d nel foro Italiano con lo stato delle costruzioni delle nuove stazioni, che sono fighissime?

@Fanatic: eh lo so grazie...specialmente il binomio culturale Eva Henger-Einstein è azzeccato...:D

Napo

April 15th, 2007, 10:00 PM

The italian High Speed train: ETR 500

http://i11.tinypic.com/2q23b13.jpg

The interiors
http://i13.tinypic.com/49auydv.jpg

The driver's cab
http://i19.tinypic.com/30ro6fc.jpg

ETR 500 trains
http://i10.tinypic.com/30w7b5j.jpg

Geokioy

April 16th, 2007, 12:34 PM

Coccodrillo

April 16th, 2007, 11:28 PM

1) Commercial service 300 km/h, during a testing run it reached 352 km/h.

2) Who knows?

GENIUS LOCI

April 24th, 2007, 02:42 PM

Testing Etr 600

iDDB84cBYmI

Rhoy

April 24th, 2007, 09:10 PM

http://i17.tinypic.com/4gpfo6g.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/33f8hhi.jpg

Is that Nspoli Afragola??? really?

Paulo2004

April 27th, 2007, 12:56 AM

Nice future stations.

joseph1951

August 21st, 2007, 04:31 PM

The maximum operating speed for the new Italian HSL is 300km/h.

In the near future the train operating max speed will be 250km/h on Milano-Bologna-Florence-Rome-Naples and on the Turin Milan lines.

The ETR500 max operating speed is 300Km/h. In commercial operations the maximum speed will be 250km/h for the time being. On a test run it has achieved +350 km/h.

The ETR500 suffered a great deal of theething troubles, it is also heavier and more expensive than TGV, and has far less power/weight ratio than the French train.

At the moment, on the Milan-Florence line the commercial speed achieved by ETR500 is only about 115 km/h. Hardly a high speed.

On the other high speed routes the average commercial speeds are:
Milan Rome 128.2 km/h.
Rome Naples 156.92 km/h
Torino-Milan -105.51 km/h

In the past, when the Florence-Rome high speed line was only partially completed, the commercial speed was higher.

The current commercial speed between Turin and Milan is almost equal to that achieved in 1950 with light diesel railcairs.

In 1990 there were tiliting trains which were much faster.

The Italians have spent a huge amount of money to buidl three miserable high speed lines and, so far, the results have been quite disappointing.

As a matter of fact, in Italy, in the past 15 years, the rail service has greatly deteriorated.

TohrAlkimista

August 21st, 2007, 04:32 PM

If I'm not wrong, a 3d about TAV is already existing somewhere in this section.

joseph1951

August 21st, 2007, 05:25 PM

I do not know of a 3rd about this thread. Incidentally what do you mean about 3rd? 3rd page?

Wilhem275

August 21st, 2007, 10:28 PM

The Italians have spent a huge amount of money to buidl three miserable high speed lines and, so far, the results have been quite disappointing. As a matter of fact, in Italy, in the past 15 years, the rail service has greatly deteriorated.

Actually, no HSLs have been completed, so the results are still to come!:)

Augusto

August 22nd, 2007, 10:12 PM

In the 90' a new service had been lauched between Lyon (France) and Milano through the Alps mountains. But the Italian Pendolino ETR 460 were so unreliable that they were taking more time than before. A few years later those trains have been withdrawaled.
What was wrong with them? They were quite good looking and probably the only trains in France with the spanish Talgo were cheap and good espresso was available..

joseph1951

August 25th, 2007, 12:02 AM

The pendolinos (ETR480) used in France were subjected to maintenance problems, also they were boycotted by SNCF which prefers TGVs.

worldwide70rm

August 29th, 2007, 09:52 AM

Here some pix of the new Pendolino (ETR 600) running between Tiburtina Station and Scalo San Lorenzo in Rome

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/8039/p1000333uy0.th.jpg (http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1000333uy0.jpg)
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/2352/p1000333mn7.th.jpg (http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1000333mn7.jpg)

worldwide70rm

August 29th, 2007, 09:53 AM

Another one
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/781/p1000337og8.th.jpg (http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1000337og8.jpg)

worldwide70rm

August 29th, 2007, 10:05 AM

still another one
http://i12.tinypic.com/6h368uu.jpg

tneruals

August 31st, 2007, 07:31 PM

The maximum speed for the new Italian HSL is 300km/h. In the near future the train operating max speed will be 250km/h on Milano-Bologna-Florence-Rome-Naples and on the Turin Milan lines.
The ETR500 max operating speed is 300Km/h. In commercial operations the maximum speed will be 250km/h for the time being. On a test runa it has achieved +350 km/h.

The ETR500 suffered a great deal of theething troubles, it is also heavier and more expensive than TGV and has far less power that the Frenche train.

At the moment, on the Milan Florence line the commercial speed achieved by ETR500 is only about 115 km/h. Hardly a high speed.

On the other high speed routes the average commercial speeds are:
Milan Rome 128.2 km/h.
Rome Naples 156.92 km/h
Torino-Milan -105.51
In the past, when the Florence Rome high speed line was only partially completed the commercial speed was higher.
The current commercial speed between Turin and Milan is almost equal to that achieve in 1950 with light diesel railcairs. In 1990 there were tiliting trains which were much faster.
The Italians have spent a huge amount of money to buidl three miserable high speed lines and, so far, the results have been quite disappointing. As a matter of fact, in Italy, in the past 15 years, the rail service has greatly deteriorated.
The ETR 500 top speed between Rome and Naples and between Turin and Novara (high-speed line to be completed to Milan) is 300 km/h and not 250 km/h as you mentioned. If average speeds are not very high it is because urban "penetrations" into Naples, Milan and Rome have yet to be completed. Despite the numerous construction delays, the Rome-Naples high speed line was the first in Europe to successfully implement the use of the European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS) of second level whereas elsewhere implementation has proven to be very difficult.

GENIUS LOCI

December 7th, 2007, 02:02 PM

Milano-Bologna HS line. They finished the bridge on Po river

Here some pics

http://www.ferrovie.it/fol.tim/img/FN2413101.jpg

http://www.ferrovie.it/fol.tim/img/FN2413102.jpg

http://www.ferrovie.it/fol.tim/img/FN2413103.jpg

http://www.ferrovie.it/ferrovie.vis/timdettvp.php?id=2413

Federicoft

December 7th, 2007, 10:13 PM

I'm pretty sure there was another thread on the Italian TAV.

Is it possible to merge them?

edit: probably there isn't any, so let's remember what all this is about. :)

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/43/italialineeaving24d0648ua8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The final network will be:
blue: 300+ km/h
yellow: 250 km/h

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5646/italytavnew24d9895qe7.png (http://imageshack.us)

Booze

December 7th, 2007, 10:42 PM

Roma - Firenze is 300 km/h yet?

Coccodrillo

December 8th, 2007, 04:10 PM

Roma-Firenze is designed for 300 km/h on some stretches, but being electrified with 3 kV DC, speed limit is now about 250 km/h.

GENIUS LOCI

December 10th, 2007, 05:05 PM

Roma - Firenze is 300 km/h yet?
As Coccodrillo said 250 km/h, but it is the first HS track in Italy built in '70s

Coccodrillo

December 10th, 2007, 10:36 PM

The Direttissima Rome-Flroence line is the first HSL in Europe, built a few a few years before the Paris-Lyon, even if it is a mixed traffic line, goods and passenegrs.

However, this line is in fact used only by HS trains, InterCity, and fast local trains, and does not have a lot of freight trains.

Bitxofo

December 11th, 2007, 04:39 PM

Are there high speed trains leaving from Venice to Rome? How long do they take?
:?
Grazie!
;)

elfabyanos

December 11th, 2007, 07:00 PM

As Coccodrillo said 250 km/h, but it is the first HS track in Italy built in '70s

I understand that it is being upgraded to 300km/h throughout.

elfabyanos

December 11th, 2007, 07:02 PM

Are there high speed trains leaving from Venice to Rome? How long do they take?
:?
Grazie!
;)

Fastest I found tomorrow
11:54 MESTRE
16:03 ROMA TE duration 04:09

TohrAlkimista

December 11th, 2007, 09:51 PM

Are there high speed trains leaving from Venice to Rome? How long do they take?
:?
Grazie!
;)

Yes, there are Eurostar services...

but the network is not completed yet,

http://www.ferroviedellostato.it/ffss/img/Italia.jpg

Blue: in service
Green: u/c
Yellow: to project

so the service between Venice and Rome alternates HS parts with "normal" network speeds.

For example (the shortest travel):
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/681/immagine2no8.png

it lasts 4h and is served with ETR-500:

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/7/7f/250px-FS_ETR500-brandsAV.jpg

Coccodrillo

December 11th, 2007, 10:43 PM

Are there high speed trains leaving from Venice to Rome? How long do they take?
:?
Grazie!
;)

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/italian-network/italian-network.gif

The HSL between Firenze and Bologna will open in december 2009 (probably). Between Bologna and Venezia/venice speed limit is on some parts 200 km/h.

I understand that it is being upgraded to 300km/h throughout.

No it isn't.

elfabyanos

December 12th, 2007, 11:27 AM

http://www.ferroviedellostato.it/ffss/img/Italia.jpg

Blue: in service
Green: u/c
Yellow: to project

I didn't know the Bologna-Verona line was u/c already!

Coccodrillo

December 13th, 2007, 10:01 PM

It is a 200 km/h mixed passenger-freight line, replacing the existing single track line.

Shezan

December 14th, 2007, 01:53 AM

even the Foggia-Bari line is U/C ?!?

elfabyanos

December 14th, 2007, 12:17 PM

It is a 200 km/h mixed passenger-freight line, replacing the existing single track line.

Excellent thanks.

Coccodrillo

December 16th, 2007, 10:25 AM

even the Foggia-Bari line is U/C ?!?

No it isn't.

Only Torino-Milano-Bologna-Firenze and Roma-Napoli-Salerno will be really high speed lines (300 km/h) electrified with 25 kV AC. Even if it is planned to use these lines also by freight trains, I think they will used mainly or only by HS trains.

As I have already said Firenze-Roma is a 250 km/h mixed traffic line electrified in 3 kV DC.

The parts shown in green of the Palermo-Messina line are not really HS but mixed traffic 200 km/h lines electrified in 3 kV DC.

Napoli-Foggia-Bari is not under construction, and will be partly a 200 km/h mixed traffic line and partly will be an upgrade of existing lines. I don't know much about this project.

The yellow lines in project are being planned as mixed traffic lines, some of them in 3 kV DC, some in 25 kV AC.

eomer

December 19th, 2007, 10:13 AM

No it isn't.

Only Torino-Milano-Bologna-Firenze and Roma-Napoli-Salerno will be really high speed lines (300 km/h) electrified with 25 kV AC. Even if it is planned to use these lines also by freight trains, I think they will used mainly or only by HS trains.

Is the Milano-Bologna-Firenze section still under construction or is it in service ? The forecast for oppening was 2007: I think it should be oppened now.

As I have already said Firenze-Roma is a 250 km/h mixed traffic line electrified in 3 kV DC.

According to UIC, "High Speed" starts at 250 km/h: Firenze-Roma is already an HSR.

GENIUS LOCI

December 19th, 2007, 06:59 PM

Is the Milano-Bologna-Firenze section still under construction or is it in service ? The forecast for oppening was 2007: I think it should be oppened now.

No :bash:
Milano-Bologna stretch is forecasted to be opened in December 2008

windawinda77

December 29th, 2007, 03:55 PM

Federicoft

December 31st, 2007, 02:03 PM

^^
It is, but the main problem is that Italy is not a country of authoritative decisions. Everything should be debated, approved and revised by the greatest number of people possibile, seeking for a compromise from all the parts involved.
For instance, to avoid Nimbys, every municipality where the TAV passes thru was granted with schools, parks, libraries and other projects build at contractor's expenses. :crazy:

All this has lifted times and costs.

Having said that, there are much more orographic difficulties compared to France or Spain as well.

Federicoft

December 31st, 2007, 02:05 PM

Count-down at Milan Central station for the opening of Milan-Bologna TAV, expected on December 2008.

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/2069/21408430928b53dff219b6bbt8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

tneruals

January 22nd, 2008, 09:54 PM

NTV, The First Italian Private Railway Operator, Chooses Alstom for the Supply and Maintenance Of 25 AGV Trains

LEVALLOIS-PERRET, France--(Business Wire)--Regulatory News:

The Italian train operator Nuovo Trasporto Viaggiatori (NTV) has
ordered from Alstom (Paris:ALO) 25 of its brand new very high speed
AGV1 trains for EUR 650 million. The contract covers the maintenance
of the trains for a 30 year period which is not included in this
amount. It also foresees an option for a further 10 trains.

The signing of this contract - which follows the Italian Transport
Ministry's agreement to award NTV a Railway Company licence and
authorisation to perform passenger service in Italy - marks the
beginning of the implementation phase of NTV's project that will
enable the private operator to start service on the new high speed
lines early 2011.

NTV, created in December 2006 by Italian entrepreneurs Luca
Cordero di Montezemolo, Diego Della Valle, Gianni Punzo and Giuseppe
Sciarrone, will operate in the very high speed railway market in
Italy.

NTV and Alstom will present the details of this contract during a
press conference to be held on 7 February 2008 in Rome.

NTV will operate the AGV on the Italian high speed network at a
speed of 300 kph. NTV's trains will comprise 11 coaches and will offer
around 500 seats. The AGV is built according to the most recent
European standards of interoperability and follows the European and
Italian regulations for the safeguard of environment and safety. Its
traction system played a key role in the performance achieved on 3
April 2007 by the train that set the new world rail speed record and
allows the AGV to operate at a speed of up to 360 kph.

Alstom has already manufactured 70% of the trains worldwide
currently operated at over 300 kph. The Group's very high speed
activity is in constant development, thanks to its unrivalled
experience and technological lead. Since the launch of the first TGV2
in 1981, Alstom has sold nearly 650 very high speed trains throughout
the world. They have covered over 2.8 billion kilometres (6,500 times
the distance between the Earth and the Moon) and carried 1.6 billion
passengers. Their commercial speed has progressed from 260 kph to 320
kph, and they have set three world rail speed records: 380 kph in
1981, 515.3 kph in 1990 and 574.8 kph in 2007.

1 Automotrice Grande Vitesse. AGV is a registered trademark of
Alstom

2 TGV is a registered trademark of the SNCF

About Alstom Transport

A promoter of sustainable mobility, Alstom Transport develops and
markets the most complete range of systems, equipment and service on
the railway market. With operations in over 60 countries and a
workforce of 26,000 employees, Alstom Transport's strength lies in its
ability to manage entire transport systems, encompassing rolling
stock, signalling, infrastructure and services, and offer "turnkey"
solutions. Generating sales of EUR 5.3 billion, the company is the
world number one in the sector and is the leader in the very high
speed market.

About NTV

NTV was founded in December 2006 by Luca Cordero di Montezemolo,
Diego Della Valle, Gianni Punzo e Giuseppe Sciarrone. In January 2008
Banca Intesa San Paolo became part of the company with a 20% share.
NTV's mission is to plan, organise and operate passengers services on
the high speed lines. The company, by aiming to offer high quality
services at competitive prices, wants to contribute to the growth of
the Italian railway system and to the valorisation of the new high
speed lines, which are fundamental for the modernisation of the
Italian transport system.

Websites www.alstom.com, www.transport.alstom.com

Copyright Business Wire 2008

Xabi

February 18th, 2008, 12:52 PM

Really nice stations. First one looks Zaha Hadid's.

Thorin

February 19th, 2008, 06:22 PM

First one looks Zaha Hadid's.

It is.

Paulo2004

February 19th, 2008, 10:37 PM

Nice, cool look.

RSG

February 23rd, 2008, 05:43 AM

Very nice. I like that HSR requires a certain design of station to complement the train design.

TohrAlkimista

March 3rd, 2008, 12:14 PM

Yesterday was broken the previous speed record on the italian railways network, the ETRY500rf reached 355 km/h on the Milan-Bologna route, during a test. The line will be opened on the 15th December 2008.

tneruals

March 3rd, 2008, 09:19 PM

Just to add some clarity: the record was reached by a conventional, non-modified ETR500 high-speed train.

Shezan

March 5th, 2008, 04:59 AM

thanks for the reply, Coccodrillo :cheers:

joseph1951

March 17th, 2008, 03:57 AM

The ETR 500 top speed between Rome and Naples and between Turin and Novara (high-speed line to be completed to Milan) is 300 km/h and not 250 km/h as you mentioned. If average speeds are not very high it is because urban "penetrations" into Naples, Milan and Rome have yet to be completed. Despite the numerous construction delays, the Rome-Naples high speed line was the first in Europe to successfully implement the use of the European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS) of second level whereas elsewhere implementation has proven to be very difficult.

Not quite so. The top speed of the new Italian High Speed lines is 300Km/h, but initally the commercial speed will be only of 250Km/h, as per official data published by TAV, Trenitalia, and Italferr. AS a matter of fact, the new titlting which will use the new HSL will have a max top speed of 250 km/h.

The ETR500 in a 12 car formation + 2 locos has an output of only 8800Kw under 25Kv wire and weigh aboutt 664 tons. That is about 13.75Kw/ton, compared to the TGV power to weight ratio of about 22kw/ton.

On 3,000, volt dc, above 200km/h, the ETR500 has only half power (i.e.: 6.87/kW/ton).

On The DD (Florence Rome High Speed) it runs at a 220km/h, with a top speed of 250 km/h in case of late runnings.

The ETR 500 on 3000 volt dc, above 200km/h mark can only use one loco (i.e. 4400KW).

With a power to ratio of only 13,7kw/ton on th HSL under 25kv.ac the ETR500 can reach 300km/h after a fairly slow and long accerelation. However a consist of ETR500 of 8 carriages and 2 locos offers far better perfomance than a consits of 12 cars + 2 locos

The ETR500,which is a conventional train, such as the ICE 1, with top and tail locos, is not ideal for the italian network.

The Etr200 of 1939 was a total succes. The Etr200, an d the Etr250 were articulated trains with power distribution.
Furthermore, any TGV of the latest generations can be regeared in about 3 and 1/2 minutes, by adjusting the software.

Once regeared, the TGV can draw 17600Kw for about 20 minutes. That is over 44kw/ton.

A regeared TGV, such as the TGV which did the non-stop run Calais Frethun Marseille-Saint Charles run (1.067 km) in 3 hours 29 minutes and 29 seconds) A regeared standard TGV can accelerate from 0 km/h to 300 km/h in less tha three minutes. Indde on the Lyon- Marseille section the TGV do easily exced 330km/h on a daily basis.

Furthermore, the new French High Speed Lines have a double wiring cable of 2x 25kw, and the ondulatory movements of the (thick) catenary starts at about 620Km/h.

Thet new Italian high speed lines, although they use the French method, are made with only one cable and the ondulatory movements of the thin and elastic catenary starts at about 370Km/h.

Therefore, if you push an ETR500, in a reduced formation, let say two locos + 3 cars, at speed above the critical speed in which ondulatoy movements of the catenary occur (about 370Km/h), you will run the risk of damaging or even pulling down the catenary.

The technical department of engineering of the defunct Ferrovie dello Stato (FS) did not want the ETR500.

The ETR500 was rejected by senior FS enginners since the very beginning, when it was still on the drawing board.

The ETR500 was built for political reason. The seating is also anti-ergonomic.

It is the worst High speed train (sic!!!) in Europe.

It is quite significant that NTV, the new High speed Italian private operator, has chosen the AGV.

I was in Italy a few months ago. Much to my regret, I have to say that, the Italian railway system has progressively deteriorated since the late 1990, on all major lines.

About 2/3 of the Milan-Turin are completed (85km) on al total lenght of 153km. When fully completed the Turin-Milan HSL will be 125km long with end sections on the historical line. Yet , in 1990 the Pendolino tilting train was doing Milan Turin (153 Km) in 1h 18 minutes, on the old slow line.

Now The ETR500 cover the same distance, but travellng for 85 km on th new High speed line in 1h and 22 minutes!

Furthermore, the italian cross-overs from the historical (slow speed ) lines to the HSL lines, and viceversa, are taken at speed of 20-40 miles. The French crossovers (flyovers) can be negotiated between 220km/h and 260km/h.

In the future, trains non stopping at Bologna and at Florence, will transit through Bologna at 80-100km/h (underground High speed station), and through Firenze High Speed station at 70-80 (YES, SEVENTY-EIGHTY ) Km/h.

When the Milan-Rome HSL will be completed (but when? in the year 2010?) and fully operational, a non-stop Milan-Rome will cover the 567 between the two cities in 3 hours, at best, at an average speed of 189 km/h.

Now, the French best timing, on the new section of East HSL is about 278. km/h, between Gare de l'Est and the Gare TGV Champagne (if I remember correctly), covering from stat to stop 179km in about 36 -38 minutes.

Trainman Dave

March 17th, 2008, 06:16 PM

Thank you Joseph1951 for that fascinating post.

Given the content of your post, I have to assume that none of this information is available on the WWW. Is it possible for you cite the titles of paper documents which might be in a Library?

I have been curious for some time about the relatively low timetable speeds for the ETR-500 services. Now I am beginning to understand.

tneruals

March 17th, 2008, 07:56 PM

Recent information released by Trenitalia/RFI says the top commercial speed on the Milan-Bologna line will be 300km/h, except for a section of the line in Modena province with tighter curve radii where speed will be limited to 240km/h. Even the long span bridge over the Po River has been built for speeds up to 300 km/h and during a recent test an ETR500 crossed that bridge at over 330 km/h. Yes, the last segment of the Turin-Milan line has yet to be completed, but trains already reach 300 km/h between Turin and Novara (I've taken that train and it does go up to 300 km/h. Some people have posted videos on youtube with GPS monitoring showing that such speed is actually reached). The same speed is reached on the HST line between Rome and Naples.

The ETR500 may not be fantastic train, but it has its good sides too. It rides more smoothly on new HST lines than the TGV (which I've also taken). It also has a nice design which I personally find much more appealing than that of the TGV.

I agree that Trenitalia services have deteriorated in recent years, so I think competition from NTV and its sleeker AGV trainsets will be more than welcome.

Not quite so. The top speed of the new Italian High Speed lines is 300Km/h, but the commercial speed will be only of 250Km/h, as per official data published by TAV, Trenitalia, and Italferr.

The ETR500 in a 12 car formation + 2 locos has an output of only 8800Kw under 25Kv wire and weigh aboutt 660 tons. That is about 13.7Kw/ton, compared to the TGV power to weight ratio of about 22kw/ton.

On 3,000 volt dc the ETR500 has only half power (i.e.: 6.85/Kw/ton).

On The DD (Florence Rome High Speed) it runs at a 220km/h, with top speed in case of late runnings of 250km/h.

Furthermore, any TGV of the latest generations can be regeared in about 3 and 1/2 minutes, by adjusting the software.

Once regeared, the TGV can draw 17600Kw for about 50 minutes. That is over 44kw/ton.

The ETR 500 on 3000 volt dc can only use one loco (i.e. 4400KW).

With a power to ratio of only 13,7kw/ton on th HSL under 25kv.ac the ETR500can reach 300km/h after a very slow and long accerelation of about 12 minutes.
A regeared TGV, such as the TGV which did the non-stop run Calais Frethun Marseille-Saint Charles run (1.067 km) in 3 hours 29 minutes and 29 seconds) A regeared standard TGV can accelerate from 0 km/h to 300 km/h in less tha three minutes. Indde on the Lyon- Marseille section the TGV do easily exced 330km/h on a daily basis.

The ETR500,which is a conventional train, such as the ICE 1, with top and tail locos, was a total disaster.

The Etr200 of 1939 was a total succes. The Etr200, an d the Etr250 were articulated trains with power distribution.

Furthermore, the new French High Speed Lines have a double wiring cable of 2x 25kw, and the ondulatory movements of the (thick) catenary starts at about 620Km/h.

Thet new Italian high speed lines, although they use the French method, are made with only one cable and the ondulatory movements of the thin and elastic catenary starts at about 370Km/h.

Therefore, if you push an ETR500, in a reduced formation, let say two locos + 3 cars, at speed above the critical speed in which ondulatoy movements of the catenary occur (about 370Km/h), you will run the risk of pulling down the catenary.

The fact that I am writing in English, it does not mean I am English. In fact I am of Italian orgin, living in th UK.

Before becoming seriously ill with ME I was a fairly successful translator: among other translations, I translated the Italferr technical specifications into English for the new High Speed line from Bologna to Florence, as well as some chapters of the New Florence Hight Speed Station, designed by Sir Norman Foster.

The technical department of engineering of the defunct Ferrovie dello Stato (FS) did not want the ETR500.

The ETR500 was rejected by senior FS technicians since the very beginning, when it was still on the drawing board.

The ETR500 was built for political reason. The seating is also anti-ergonomic.

It is the worst High speed train (sic!!!) in Europe.

It is quite significant that NTV, the new High speed Italian private operator ,
has chosen the AGV.

Only three ETR500 train sets have been sold abroad to Turkey, probably at a great discount, or given for free to Turkey.

Turkey has also bought a large number of ICE3 and CAF trainsets.

I was in Italy a few months ago. Much to my regret, I have to say that, the Italian railway system has progressively deteriorated since 1990, on all major lines.

About 2/3 of the Milan-Turin are completed (85km) on al total lenght of 153km. When fully completed the Turin-Milan HSL will be 125km long with end sections on the historical line. Yet , in 1990 the Pendolino tilting train was doing Milan Turin (153 Km) in 1h 18 minutes, on the old slow line.

Now The ETR500 cover the same distance, but travellng for 85 km on th new High speed line in 1h and 22 minutes!

Furthermore, the italian cross-overs from the historical (slow speed ) lines to the HSL lines, and viceversa, are taken at speed of 20-40 miles. The French crossovers (flyovers) can be negotiated between 220km/h and 260km/h.

In the future, trains non stopping at Bologna and at Florence, will transit through Bologna at 60-100km/h (underground High speed station), and through Firenze High Speed station at 60 (YES, SIXTY) Km/h.

When the Milan-Rome HSL will be completed (but whe year 3010?) and fully operational, a non-stop Milan-Rome will cover the 567 between the two cities in 3 hours, at best, at an average speed of 189 km/h.

Now, the French best timing, on the new section of East HSL is about 278. km/h, between Gare de l'Est and the Gare TGV Champagne (if I remember correctly), covering from stat to stop 168km in about 36 minutes.

Trainman Dave

March 17th, 2008, 08:53 PM

tneruals

March 17th, 2008, 09:06 PM

Hi,

There's a pdf (in Italian, unfortunately), with key data on the Milan Bologna line.
www.ferroviedellostato.it/allegati/2.%20MI-BO%20in%20cifre.pdf

I've found it doing a search in google using the terms "alta velocità" modena 240. I'm saying this because I've managed to open it only by clicking on the link provided by google, otherwise it won't open... You can also find it browsing through the website of Ferrovie dello Stato.

It basically says: 300 km/h velocità di progetto (240 km/h nella provincia di Modena) - 300 km/h project speed (240 km/h in the province of Modena)

5.450 m raggio di curvatura minimo (3.440 m nella provincia di Modena) - 5.450 m mininum curvature radius (3.440 m in the province of Modena). It doesn't go more into detail.

Do you have any information about where the 240 km/h section of the line is?

Trainman Dave

March 17th, 2008, 09:52 PM

Hi,

There's a pdf (in Italian, unfortunately), with key data on the Milan Bologna line.
www.ferroviedellostato.it/allegati/2.%20MI-BO%20in%20cifre.pdf

I've found it doing a search in google using the terms "alta velocità" modena 240. I'm saying this because I've managed to open it only by clicking on the link provided by google, otherwise it won't open... You can also find it browsing through the website of Ferrovie dello Stato.

It basically says: 300 km/h velocità di progetto (240 km/h nella provincia di Modena) - 300 km/h project speed (240 km/h in the province of Modena)

5.450 m raggio di curvatura minimo (3.440 m nella provincia di Modena) - 5.450 m mininum curvature radius (3.440 m in the province of Modena). It doesn't go more into detail.

Thank you. I dug a little deeper on that web site and found a map which would sugest that there probably less than 25 km which has a speed restriction

elfabyanos

March 17th, 2008, 11:27 PM

tneruals

March 17th, 2008, 11:36 PM

My experience with high-speed train lines in Italy is limited to several trips on the Florence-Rome Direttissima and on the Turin-Novara (Milan) line. Although electrified at 3kV, the Direttissima, whose first sections date back to the late 1790s if I'm correct, is a great line with numerous interconnections allowing trains to join the line for a while and then leave the line to serve nearby cities, a bit like a motorway. Yes, I do admire French high-speed lines, but some of the stations are quite far from cities (Amiens-Picardie TGV, for example), making bus connections necessary. Although running on the short (80 something km) Turin-Novara line for the time being (until late 2009 when the extension to Milan will be completed), the train speed definitely feels faster than on the Direttissima, and you can really tell as the train runs parallel to the motorway. Plus the few times I've taken that train they announced the train had reached 300 km/h. And although Trenitalia may not have the best service, they give you a free coffee or drink with cookies, and that is in 2nd class (OK, it doensn't mean service on regular lines is necessarily good, but I thought that was a nice thing to do).

Personally I'm really looking forward to NTV starting high-speed service between major Italian cities (2010 should be the start). Its CEO is no mediocre businessman, for sure, and he knows something about speed since he's also the CEO of Ferrari! Very few details have emerged about how train coaches (Alstom AGV) will be configured, but rumours say there will big leather seats with personal LCD screens.... Well, that service will probably come at a cost, people will scream it's for the élite, but knowing my fellow citizens, they'll flock to it:-)

Thank you. I dug a little deeper on that web site and found a map which would sugest that there probably less than 25 km which has a speed restriction

tneruals

March 17th, 2008, 11:41 PM

I think one of the main problems with the line passing near Modena was a historical villa and its park. Old stones are everywhere in Italy (at times I wish there weren't that many:-)

^^ It bears inspection, there is a tight s-bend from the bridge with SS 12, finally straightening out again at Fontana to the west of the city, meeting up with the A1 motorway. I know this area of Italy well as I have relatives in Reggio Emilia. It's peculiar the HSR has not been made to follow the A1 all the way from Bologna or nearabouts, it presumably could have kept a better alignment, though I'm sure there were reasons.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=modena&ie=UTF8&ll=44.669507,10.910282&spn=0.060796,0.160675&t=h&z=13

Trainman Dave

March 18th, 2008, 02:38 AM

^^ It bears inspection, there is a tight s-bend from the bridge with SS 12, finally straightening out again at Fontana to the west of the city, meeting up with the A1 motorway. I know this area of Italy well as I have relatives in Reggio Emilia. It's peculiar the HSR has not been made to follow the A1 all the way from Bologna or nearabouts, it presumably could have kept a better alignment, though I'm sure there were reasons.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=modena&ie=UTF8&ll=44.669507,10.910282&spn=0.060796,0.160675&t=h&z=13

I believe that the alignment arround Modena is political. There are connections, on/off the new line, either side of the city so that a few trains per day can continue to serve the city of Modena. This was discussed in European press in 2001 or 2002.

Trainman Dave

March 18th, 2008, 02:45 AM

tneruals you don't have to convince me. Joseph1951 gave me some interesting analysis of the relatively low power on the ETR-500 which would amoung other events explain why it has never operated into Paris despite extensive testing a few years ago. The LGV between Macon and Paris has some fairly stiff grades and even the Eurostars are under powered for this section of track. The ETR-500 with the power specifications cited could not keep with the modern TGV's on this very congested section of track.

This would also explain why there has been no effort to upgrade the Roma - Feirenza directissma of which I have very fond memories. In 1993 I video taped the journey south of Arezzo over the shoulder of the driver in ETR-460. A truely memorable experience. The speedometer registered 260+ km/h.

Hopefully the AGV will stimulate this speed upgrade.

tneruals

March 18th, 2008, 01:34 PM

I wasn't trying to convince you. I just wanted to give some personal feedback.

tneruals you don't have to convince me. Joseph1951 gave me some interesting analysis of the relatively low power on the ETR-500 which would amoung other events explain why it has never operated into Paris despite extensive testing a few years ago. The LGV between Macon and Paris has some fairly stiff grades and even the Eurostars are under powered for this section of track. The ETR-500 with the power specifications cited could not keep with the modern TGV's on this very congested section of track.

This would also explain why there has been no effort to upgrade the Roma - Feirenza directissma of which I have very fond memories. In 1993 I video taped the journey south of Arezzo over the shoulder of the driver in ETR-460. A truely memorable experience. The speedometer registered 260+ km/h.

Hopefully the AGV will stimulate this speed upgrade.

Coccodrillo

March 20th, 2008, 12:22 AM

A map with the number of train pairs of the 2008 timetable:

http://www.milanotrasporti.org/forumfiles/uploads/msrcooper_Asse_BO-FI-RM.jpg

All long distance trains between Bologna, Firenze and Roma are shown, but not on the other branches, which have more trains.

EuroStar trains between Milano and Firenze run on the classic lines, taking about 2h45. InterCity trains take 3h15 but have more stops.

For Milano-Roma, actual travel times are: 4h05 EuroStar stopping only at Bologna, 4h30 other EuroStar, 5h50 InterCity.

Only three ETR500 train sets have been sold abroad to Turkey, probably at a great discount, or given for free to Turkey.

Turkey has also bought a large number of ICE3 and CAF trainsets.

Are you sure? I have never heard about that.

lasdun

March 20th, 2008, 04:46 PM

Although electrified at 3kV, the Direttissima, whose first sections date back to the late 1790s if I'm correct,

That would predate Stephenson's rocket by some 30 years? Was it cable hauled or horse pulled before?

I really liked traveling on the ETR500, very comforable and nice design. Interesting to hear about it's technical deficiencies.

tneruals

March 20th, 2008, 10:17 PM

ooops, typo.... 1970s, of course!

That would predate Stephenson's rocket by some 30 years? Was it cable hauled or horse pulled before?

I really liked traveling on the ETR500, very comforable and nice design. Interesting to hear about it's technical deficiencies.

elfabyanos

March 21st, 2008, 12:39 AM

^^ I wanted to comment on that too!! lol

joseph1951

March 29th, 2008, 01:08 AM

A map with the number of train pairs of the 2008 timetable:

http://www.milanotrasporti.org/forumfiles/uploads/msrcooper_Asse_BO-FI-RM.jpg

Are you sure? I have never heard about that.

Yes. It would appear that Turkey has agreed to buy three (3) ETR500. And, if I remember correctly, the Turkeys Railways has bought 10 ICE3 and 20 (?) 250km/h CAF trains.

In recent years the best trains that came out of Italy were the Etr 401 (the prototype of the pendolino), then the ETR 450-460-470-480. They were produced by Fiat Ferroviaria. They were sold to Spain, Norway, Uk, etc.

Fiat Ferroviaria was then sold to Alstom. Therefore the ETR 600 tilting train is French.

The ETR 500 is an heavy conventional train made of two locos + 8 or 12 carriages. Conceptually it is similar to the German ICE-1, but less confortable than the latter. It is grossly undepowered.
The old school of FS engineers did not want it. It was chosen for political consideration, non technical.
Indeed the first lot of ETR500 is now used as EsCity on the Milan-Venice historical route. On the 3kv cantenary, on high speed, the ETR500 can only use one locomotive, the other loco being as dead weight.

You sholuld know this, being an Italian who lives in Italy.

The ICE 3, the Velaro, the Spanish "pato" all the TGV's and the future French AVG have better performance than the ETR500. Ditto for the Japense trains such as the Nozomi. All Japanese HST have power distributed under the carriages. The Japanese double decker HST's can carry over 1300 passengers, if I remeber correctly.

The ETR500 is also flawed because in the Direttissima at 250 km/h it can only use one locomotive
(4,400Kw).
In fact, on the Direttissima its commercial max speed is 220 km/h (250km/h for late running).
For better perfomance the ETR500 needs locomotives capable of develolping 6,000 Kw, or motorisation of the two carriages next to the two locos. To add two motors in each carraige next to the locos (i.e: 2,200 Kw per carriage x 2 carriages = 4,400 Kw of extra power), would be a fairly symple operation.
Then you will have 2 locos + 8.800kw + 4 extra engines mounted on the two carriages , with each engines having a power output of 1,100 Kw per motor, for a total of 13,200 Kw or 20 Kw/ton.

The Italians have a long tradition of articulated trains with power distribution under the carriages (ETR200 (1939), ETR 250 and ETR300 Settebello (1959?), and also on the tilting trains, like the ETR450-460-470-480 , and now on Altsom ETR 600.

Unfortuntely in planning the ETR500 the did forget their long tradition af light HST's with power distribution.

These tilting trains on the Direttisima Florence-Rome outperfom easily the ETR500. On the Direttissima the old ETR450, can easily reach 275 km/h with only one pantograph active. This is not possible with the ETR500, which requires two pantographs active at speed above 250km/h.
The "old tiltings (with the tilting mechanism on working order) can, and they did, also outperfrom the ETR500 on conventional lines by +15% to 30%. Indeed, a tilting train could do, Milan-Rome in
3h and 35 minutes right now.

In 1990, on the historical line Turin-Milan the journey time with the tilting train ETR450 was 1h 12minutes.

Also, in 1990 the journeys on ETR 450 on the Bologna- Milan were scheduled in 1h and 26 minutes Now, on the Milan-Bologna historical line the journey time with the ETR500 is 1h and 42 minutes - a journey time which was achieved regularly by the ICs in 1990 with locomotives E444 + 12 carriages.

Progress? No.

joseph1951

March 29th, 2008, 01:31 AM

whay the italian high speed development is going so slowly?, with the size and saphe of italy not many lines are nedded to conect properly all italians regions...may be with the hisgh speed km that have been already opened in spain would be enough...is it more difficoult to built high speed trains in italy than in spain?

Merely for politcal reasons. The single track line Bologna-Verona was predisposed for doubling 50 years ago. The upgrading/doubling works have started over 15 years ago. The doubling and upgrading of the line is not complete. The line is only 114 km long, and it is on the Po valley, the flattest part of northern Italy.

It took over 20 years to complete the Florence-Rome HSL.

The lines in yellow appearing on the Italian map are to be completed by year 2020, at best.

The new HSLs to be open between 2008 and 2010 are the remaining section of the Turin-Milan (35 km), the Milan-Bologna, the Bologna-Florence. The Milan-Venice is upgraded only for about 30 km, from Milan to Pioltello (max speed 220 under 3 kv) and from Mestre-Padua section (about 24 km, max speed 220 km/h under 3kv). The remaining of the line to be built and electrified with th French system of 25kv ac is still, either in the costruction phase, i:e Piltello Brescia, or in the planning phase i.e: Brescia, Verona, Vicenza and Padua.
In Italy, for each high speed line, on average, 10kms/year are built.

joseph1951

March 29th, 2008, 01:50 AM

Do you have any information about where the 240 km/h section of the line is?

Around Modena.

joseph1951

March 29th, 2008, 01:53 AM

Bravo Italia!!! Forza!!!...and some questions...
1) What is the maximum speed of ETR 500?
2) This bridge in the straight of Messina is going to be build or not? and if yes when?
Grazie...for the info:)

No. The buiding of the Bridge on the straight of Messina has been rejected and postponed "at infinitum", that is idefinitely. Nice rendering though, of a bridge which will not be built during my lifetime.

joseph1951

March 29th, 2008, 01:58 AM

Actually, no HSLs have been completed, so the results are still to come!:)

One has been completed : the Direttisima Florence-Rome, finished after 25 years of "slow costruction".

joseph1951

March 29th, 2008, 02:00 AM

Just to add some clarity: the record was reached by a conventional, non-modified ETR500 high-speed train.

On reduced formation.

joseph1951

March 29th, 2008, 02:01 AM

Just to add some clarity: the record was reached by a conventional, non-modified ETR500 high-speed train.

On reduced formation and it took about 10 minutes to pass from 199km/h to 355km/h. Fast acceleration?

joseph1951

April 1st, 2008, 02:33 AM

Thank you. I dug a little deeper on that web site and found a map which would sugest that there probably less than 25 km which has a speed restriction

1- The maximum project speed of the new Italian HSL's is 300km/h.
The commercial speed will be 250km/h.
This was on the TAV and Italferr Web sites. Now disappeared.

Maxim projectula speed does not mean maximum servicing ceiling on commercial operations.

The new Italian HS Lines are built according to the French philosphy, but not according to the most recent French technical specifications.
The Feench cantenaries are very thick and strong. On the newly built French HSL the critical oscillatory movements of the catenary start at around -600-620 Km/h. On the "Old French 1500volt d.c. heavy style catenary, the critical ondulatory movements occur at around 449 km/h.

3 -In the German High speed system the critical ondulatory movements of the catenary occcur at about 591 km/H.

In Italy on the old 3000 volt d.c. systems of the the DD (first HSL Line) the critical ondulatory phenomenon starts at around 280Km/h.

In the Rome-Florence High Speed line, the 3000v d.c. Italian catenary is light and "elastic", far less performant that the old French 1500 dc.

In fact, in France, on the old section Paris-Bordeaux two double decker TGVs travel at 220km/h with 4 PANTOGRAPHS raised.

In The Italian DD it is not possibile to travel at speed of 250km/h with 2 pantographs raised. It has been done with the testing of the ETR500, but at night, with huge flashes.

Running an ETR500 in the Rome-Florence High Speed line energised at 3kw d.c. above 250 km/s, with two pantograph raised there is the real risk of fusing pantograph annd catenary, and pulling down both the overhead cables and the supporting poles.

Indeed, on the DD HSL line the ETR500 can only travel at a top speed of 200km/ with 2 patogrpaphs raised.

Above this speed, on he DD the ETR500 must run only with 1 pantograph raised, this with only one loco active which supply only half of the maximum train power.

The pulling down of the cateranry has happened several times on the historical Milan-Bologna, with Pendolinos, and ETR500, with only one pantograph active and at speed below 200km/h. On the histrorical Milan-Bologna (with 132 km of line authorised for speed up to 200km/h) the ETR500 can use the two pantographs only up to 100km/h.

In the new Italian High Speed lines, are built according to French philosphy, but with Italian technical specifications for HS mixed traffic lines. Therefore the catenary installed on these lines is thinner or less rigid than the new French catenary. On the Italian newly built mixed trafic HSL the critical oscillatory movements of the cantenary (when the pantograph tends to loose contact with catenary and causes electrical arches), start occurring at about 370Km/h.

This value, is the critical theoretical value for the begining of critical oscillatory movements of the catenary on the newly Italian HSL.

The new Italian lines are also built as "High Speed and High Capacy lines", thus "planned" for mixed traffic, and designed with lower gradients (inclines), and with a lower lateral non-compensated accelerations, copmare to those used for pure HSL lines.
Therefore the Italian mixe trafficl HS/HC lines are built with constraints and costs that the "pure" HSLs built on other Countries do not have, because the latter were built as HSLs exclusively dedicatd to passenger traffic.

They new Italian HSL AV/AC are also built for a maximum axial load of 25 tons, compared to the 17-18 maximum axial load of the pure and more cheaper versions of HSLs totally dedicated to the transportation of passengers.

The Italian AV/AC philospophy of having mixed the two concepts has had bad consequences, such as the soaring of the cost of builiding the infrastructures and of the lowering of the maximum potential speed of these lines.

It would appear quite clear that the labelling of these lines as AV/AC (High Speed /High Capacity) were a mere political expedient.

Also the usage of this lines for freight trains is quite doubtful, at least for the foreseeable future.

Furthermore, the idea of a fture underground crossing of Bologna central station (with a speed limitation of 60 km/h -mas 100km) the further speed liimitations to the transit of the fast trains, on the yet to be built or completed Firenze-Belfore Station , imposes several crossings at considerable speed restrictions, which will greatly reduce the maximum commercial speed on the Milan-Rome- Milan- Naples services.

Therefore, after the completion of the entire works I do not think that the journey times of 2h and 30 minutes or even less, between Milan - to Rome, from Milan -Central Station to Rome-Termini, can be easily achieved. It seems to me a whishful thought, too difficult to turn into reality.

In Italy, given the short distances between medium size cities, the max speed is not the most vital factor. Acceleration is. The Spanish high speed non tilting Talgo 350 - the Duck or "El Pato" - would offer a far better performace than either the TGV, or the faboulous ICE3 (its Velaro version has reached 403 km/h without any modification to the standard set).

The Talgo "El Pato" "S103?" is extremely light. It has reached a top speed of 362 km/h. It will be used on the Madrid-Bacelona line for stopping fast trains, whilst the Velaro will be used for long-distance non-stopping trains.

Practically the El Pato acceleration curve, from 150 km/h to 300 is almost vertical. It takes only 3 km for El Pato to pass from 150 to 300 km/h. On commecial service, El Pato has a commercial speed of 330 km/h. Obviously, the omologation of a train for a given commercial speed is: max speed +10%

Even after modifications to the ETR500, by adding extra motors to the two carriages adjacent to the two locos and make it reach 400km/h, it would not be possibile to use that speed in commercial service or, indeed just for a records.

The risk of pulling down the catenary and the supporting poles, at speeds around 370 km/h is real.

Also both ETR500 locomotives of first and second series do not conform with the new EU crash worthiness standards, and the construction line of this type of trains has been closed.

It is rumored that the new bogies to be mounted to the ETR500 2nd series will be those built by Alstom.......

On the Turin-Milan High speed section the reduced formation of the ETR500 touches 300km/h after 50 km of slow accelaration.

Onthe ETR500, to pass from 150 km/h to 300km/h is slowly painful. It is the wrong train for fast speed, in short distances.

The same can be said for Milan-Bologna "record".

The 355Km/h were achieved after 10 minutes and 44 seconds. The train started accelerating after 20 km, south of Milan (wired under 3kw d.c.), then it enterd the new HSL at 199km/h, then it took 10 minutes and 44 second of painfully slow acceleration to reach 355km/h, which were maintained just for a few seconds.

In y opinion the best usage of the ETR500 2nd series in 2 locomotive + 12 carriages compostions is for long -non stop services between Milan -Roma and Milan -Naples, Turin -Rome, Turin-Naples .

For fast trains, making fequent intermediate calls, better and faster services could be provided with a totally different type of train.

Let's for a moment look at the new HS Milan-Brescia-Verona-Vicenza-Padua-Mestre-Venice line.
The first 20 km from Milan towards Brescia are under 3kv d.c., with a top speed of 200km/h and the remaining 55-60km to Brescia will be on 25kv ac.

The 80-83km from Milan-Brescia will be covered, at best, in 30-35 minutes, at an avergae speed of less than 160 km/h.
One can easily see that the ETR500 is not the best train for fast journey on this line.
Incidentally, the new ETR600 Tilting trains have a top sped of 250km/h. It is possible to build active tilting trains capable of +320 Km/h.

The fact that the newest tilting trains have a max speed of 250km/h and that they will be partially used on the newly built HSLs suggests that for the foreseeable future the mmaximum commercial speed of the passenger trains running on the new HSL will be of 250km/h, with some superfast trains capable of short peaks at 300km/h, to make up time, in case of late running.

Given the short distances between many cities served direcly by these lines it seems to me that the journey times forecasted are very decent.
Namely Milan -Bologna 65 minutes . Which can, perhpas, be reduced to 60 minutes , for some flag trains.
Bologna-Florence 35 minutes.
Florence-Rome 1h 30. On some (very few) flag trains the journey tme could be shlashed 1h 25' -1h 20
Milan. Central -Rome Termini 3 hours. Perhaps 2h 50' - 2h 55' for a few flag-trains, from Mi.Cle. To Rome -Termini

A possibile reduction in journey times between Milan Central and Rome-Termini to 2h 30 minutes or, indeed to 2h flat appears to be fairly unfeasable.

The Montezemolo AGV ( NTV) will be limited to a top speed of 300km/h. This does not mean that the NTV's AVG will be able to travel on the Italian high Speed lines at sustained commercial speeds of 300km/h.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is the speed diagram of the reduced formation of the ETR500 (2 locos + 8 carriages) used on the Turin-Milan High Speed line.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5378/torinonovarasvtv1.png

==========================================================

On The Milan-Bologna HS Line the 355 Km/h were achieved with the ETR500 Y or X, which are capable of running under 3kv d.c. / 25Kv a.c., but the 2 ETR500 Y/X are tests train of a reduced/modifiable formation of 2 locos + 3 carriages/ 2 locos and 8 carriages.

It is not clear which formation was used and, I believe, that this detail is quite irrelevant.

Similarly, it is standard practice to test a newly built line at speeds in excess of the maximum planning speed.

In other counties record speeds well above 355km/h have been obtained several times, long time ago, using either trains in normal revenue services or "doped" trains.

The doping or tweaking of trains, the strengthening of rails and catenaries, is not done merely for national propaganda purposes, but also to push the technology to its technical and conceptual limits and, last but not least, for research and for marketing purposes,.. to sell trains in the global market , etc, etc.

gincan

April 1st, 2008, 11:36 AM

Very interesting read there. I wish there was some way to get hold of the acceleration graphs for all the diffrent high performance trains.

plottigat

April 1st, 2008, 05:56 PM

I'm sure you're a real train lover, and I completely agree with you about ETR500, but...
Merely for politcal reasons.
Economic reasons, to enter the so-called euro zone Italy had to cut, postpone or slow a lot of projects.
We're proud parents of one of the biggest public debt in the world (don't remeber if it's the 2nd or the 3rd or something like that).

FS had to invest over 6.900 million Euro of public money only for the Milano-Bologna stretch. And the goverment gave all those euros veeeery slowly, they simply didn't have the cash avaibility.

In Italy, if you work for the goverment as a supplier, today you have to wait at least 200 days from the date of your invoice to get your money. You are your country's bank...
Trust me, my company is always waiting. I don't work in engineering, but I'm afraid that they have the same problems.

Bologna - Florence
For its size, complexity, financial investments and deployment of technical and human resources, the high speed Bologna-Florence line is unique on a global level: 93% of its about 78.5 km of total track runs through tunnels within the Apennines, in a geological context which is among the world’s most difficult, varied and complex (from flyschoid formations to clays, from argillites to loose soils).

The line numbers a total of 9 tunnels, whose length ranges from a minimum of 600 metres to a maximum of 18.5 km and which are separated by short overground stretches (less than 5 km in total). This almost makes the Bologna-Florence line a single, immense tunnel.

The line tunnels are accompanied by a 10 km service tunnel, most of which runs parallel to the final stretch of the Vaglia tunnel, and 12 access tunnels, known as “windows”, with a total length of almost 9 km, used to create intermediate tunnel faces in the construction of the longest tunnels and, later, when the line becomes operational, for line maintenance and, in the event of an emergency, as an emergency service and escape route. The link with the existing line is also underground, with 2 tunnels with an overall length of about 9 km between Pianoro and San Ruffillo in Bologna.

To ensure that the engineering works were carried out efficiently, it was necessary to work on 40 faces contemporaneously: a deployment of men and resources which makes the sites of the Bologna-Florence line one of the most important projects currently in progress worldwide.

The tunnels in figures:

78.5 km total line length
73.4 km tunnel length
3.4 km manmade tunnels
70 km natural tunnels
- 10.7 km Pianoro Tunnel
- 3.8 km Saturano Tunnel
- 9.1 km Monte Bibele Tunnel
- 10.4 km Raticosa Tunnel
- 3.5 km Scheggianico Tunnel
- 15 km Firenzuola Tunnel
- 0.5 km Borgo Rinzelli Tunnel
- 0.3 km Morticine Tunnel
- 6.7 km Vaglia Nord Tunnel (up to Km 71+500)
- 10 km Vaglia Sud Tunnel

8.8 km access windows to line tunnels
10.6 km service tunnels to line tunnels
9 km link tunnels for connection with the existing line

One has been completed : the Direttisima Florence-Rome.
From an official source. I apologize if somebody has already posted it (I'm sure that joseph1951 saved all FS site on his hard-disk :D)
Florence – Rome
The direct Rome-Florence line was Europe’s first high speed line.

Opened in 1978, the line was built with the aim of upgrading the characteristics of the line and the railway service of the time by integration with the existing rail network and the potential to allow for the circulation of traditional freight and passenger trains as well.

The line – which crosses 3 Regions (Tuscany, Umbria, Lazio), 5 Provinces (Florence, Arezzo, Terni, Viterbo and Rome) and 30 municipalities – is 241 km long: it begins at the Station of Settebagni (16 km outside Rome) and terminates at Bivio Rovezzano (4 km outside Florence’s Campo di Marte station). There are six interconnections with the old Rome-Florence line: Orte, Orvieto, Chiusi, Arezzo, Valdarno and Rovezzano.

The maximum speed on the line is 250 km/h. On the Valdarno Sud-Figline section experimental simulations have been undertaken with ETR 500 trains which have reached a speed of over 300 km/h.

From the point of view of the timing and construction of infrastructure, the direct line can be subdivided into three separate phases, adopting homogeneous engineering and performance standards:
• phase one: Settebagni to Città della Pieve (constructed between 1970 and 1977) covering a total of 122 km, and Figline to Firenze Rovezzano (constructed between 1970 and 1980);
• phase two: Città della Pieve to Arezzo (constructed between 1976 and 1985);
• phase three: Arezzo to Figline (constructed between 1985 and 1991).

Phase two saw an improvement in line standards, made possible in part by the more favourable terrain in this area.

During phase three, the needs for greater comfort and higher performance led to a further improvement of standards. During this third phase, the problems caused by the insertion into the environment of this new infrastructure were also addressed, adopting mitigation measures for the first time on high speed lines in Italy.

With the construction of the new high speed lines between Turin, Milan and Naples the need arose to reexamine the characteristics of the direct Rome-Florence line.

The upgrading of the direct line to conform with the standards of the new high speed lines under construction required works on existing civil engineering structures (tunnels, viaducts etc), electrical traction facilities, signalling and telecommunications.

This upgrading process was implemented with a targeted plan through both night time interruption of service and the interruption of traffic on some sections and interconnections with the old Rome-Florence line.

Sorry for my English and the little OT, Cheers!

Coccodrillo

April 1st, 2008, 06:37 PM

- 6.7 km Vaglia Nord Tunnel (up to Km 71+500)
- 10 km Vaglia Sud Tunnel

This is a single tunnel about 18 km long (and with a maximum rock coverage of about 650 m, but this type of information is still hard to find).

I don't know why it is considered as two tunnels. Even the Sanremo tunnel (13,2 km) on the Genova-Ventimiglia railway is officially composed by three tunnels.

GENIUS LOCI

July 2nd, 2008, 03:47 PM

Not exactly HS station, because it will be built underground, but tho overstnding Bologna station will be completely 'rebuilt'

This is the project by Arata Isozaki presented yesterday

http://www.urbanfile.it/public/filo_2k/17276_85838462it4.jpg

http://www.urbanfile.it/public/filo_2k/172720_gdf.jpg

The underground HS tracks

http://www.urbanfile.it/public/filo_2k/172714_fafasf.JPG

http://www.urbanfile.it/index.asp?ID=3&SID=666

GENIUS LOCI

July 2nd, 2008, 03:48 PM

Not exactly HS station, because it will be built underground, but the overstanding Bologna station will be completely 'rebuilt'

This is the project by Arata Isozaki presented yesterday

http://www.urbanfile.it/public/filo_2k/17276_85838462it4.jpg

http://www.urbanfile.it/public/filo_2k/172720_gdf.jpg

The underground HS tracks

http://www.urbanfile.it/public/filo_2k/172714_fafasf.JPG

http://www.urbanfile.it/index.asp?ID=3&SID=666

GENIUS LOCI

July 2nd, 2008, 03:57 PM

Other pics

http://www.multimedia.ilsole24ore.com/bin/Media/47637/C_3_Media_47637_galleryitems_galleryitem1_immagine.jpg

http://www.multimedia.ilsole24ore.com/bin/Media/47637/C_3_Media_47637_galleryitems_galleryitem2_immagine.jpg

http://www.multimedia.ilsole24ore.com/bin/Media/47637/C_3_Media_47637_galleryitems_galleryitem3_immagine.jpg

http://www.multimedia.ilsole24ore.com/bin/Media/47637/C_3_Media_47637_galleryitems_galleryitem4_immagine.jpg

http://www.multimedia.ilsole24ore.com/fotogallery/5d58e2f2-478f-11dd-a870-91396f7e96b7/5d58e2f2-478f-11dd-a870-91396f7e96b7.shtml?1

GENIUS LOCI

July 2nd, 2008, 03:58 PM

X38

July 4th, 2008, 07:24 PM

Napo, please repalace those not-working links by working links.
Thanks, X38.

foxmulder

July 6th, 2008, 07:12 PM

well, they need these stations badly. good to hear.

GENIUS LOCI

July 15th, 2008, 03:57 PM

Today NTV (Nuovo Trasporto Viaggiatori) spa, which will be a private competitor with national railways (TrenItalia) on HS stretches, presented its own train: Alstom NGA

Nuovo Trasporto Viaggiatori
NTV’s Italian journey has begun: starting in 2011, the passenger service of Italy’s leading high-speed railway operator will get underway.

With its fleet of 25 new trains, NTV offers trips rich in entertaining experiences and service, as well as the utmost comfort.

NTV shall be the first operator worldwide to use the new Alstom AGV train, holder of the world railway speed record.

With the arrival of NTV, a new way of travelling is born, focussed on the quality of the passenger’s time: on the train, in the station and at the destination.

The fleet NTV
The company Nuovo Trasporto Viaggiatori will use only AGV model (Automotrice Grande Vitesse) high-speed Alstom trains equipped with the same traction system as the train that set the world rail speed record of 574.8 km/h on 3 April 2007.

This extraordinary performance confirms that Alstom’s experience in the field of high-speed operation is unequalled: worldwide, 70% of the trains currently used at speeds of more than 300 km/h were built by Alstom, whose equipment has travelled more than 2.8 billion kilometres and carried 1.6 billion passengers.

In other words, the AGV train, designed by Alstom and adopted to the world of NTV for the very first time, is nothing less than the state of the art in high-speed railway technology.

The AGV is based on a brand new concept, being built to travel at 360 km/h, in addition to being the only train to satisfy in full all the latest European specifications of interoperability (STI 2006), as well as European Union and Italian standards on safety and the environment.

The trains operated by NTV will hold 460 passengers in a total of 11 cars (length of train: 200 metres) and will travel on the Italian high-speed network at 300 km/h. The interiors are styled by Italdesign-Giugiaro.

There will be 25 trains in the NTV fleet.

http://www.ntvspa.it/en/nuovo-trasporto-viaggiatori/37/3/high-speed-train-agv-italy-description

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/6334/file3707479220et2.jpg

http://www.ntvspa.it/ntvupload/images/Pegase_Rouge_01_Juillet_2008_IT.jpg

http://www.corriere.it/Media/Foto/2008/07/15/fdg/TRENO_fdg.jpg

video (simulator) (http://www.ntvspa.it/en/video/15/53/2/V/16/NTV)

news broadcasted by Italian network (http://www.tg1.rai.it/dl/tg1/tg1_PopupVideo.html?t=ed%2013.30%2015.07%20lancio%2016&v=http%3A%2F%2Flink.rai.it%2Fx%2Fvod%2Fnews%2F08lug%2Fasx%2F20080715140319mpo40jftg1_ed_13_30_15_07_16_treni_superveloci-rainet.asx)

Dale

July 20th, 2008, 06:57 AM

Dale

July 20th, 2008, 06:58 AM

Today NTV (Nuovo Trasporto Viaggiatori) spa, which will be a private competitor with national railways (TrenItalia) on HS stretches, presented its own train: Alstom NGA

http://www.ntvspa.it/en/nuovo-trasporto-viaggiatori/37/3/high-speed-train-agv-italy-description

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/6334/file3707479220et2.jpg

http://www.ntvspa.it/ntvupload/images/Pegase_Rouge_01_Juillet_2008_IT.jpg

http://www.corriere.it/Media/Foto/2008/07/15/fdg/TRENO_fdg.jpg

video (simulator) (http://www.ntvspa.it/en/video/15/53/2/V/16/NTV)

news broadcasted by Italian network (http://www.tg1.rai.it/dl/tg1/tg1_PopupVideo.html?t=ed%2013.30%2015.07%20lancio%2016&v=http%3A%2F%2Flink.rai.it%2Fx%2Fvod%2Fnews%2F08lug%2Fasx%2F20080715140319mpo40jftg1_ed_13_30_15_07_16_treni_superveloci-rainet.asx)

Ferrari red - I love it!

GENIUS LOCI

July 21st, 2008, 02:18 PM

Do you mean they are renovating the station ? What is the timetable ?

If I'm not wrong: in 2009, but I'm afraid they're a bit late

Anyway this is official website of Milano Centrale http://www.cantieremilanocentrale.it/client_en/index.php

Recent pics of renovation from this thread on Italian Forum http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=610009

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3236/2522963792_d4a5f55891_b.jpg

http://www.cantieremilanocentrale.it/media/images/gallery/image_d47666462128240656ceb2f10563c4ed_galler%20di%20testa_400x400.jpg http://www.cantieremilanocentrale.it/media/images/gallery/image_ad220de10c0c309e01c8370f402ca131_galler%20di%20testa1_400x400.jpg

http://www.cantieremilanocentrale.it/media/images/gallery/image_bd265f70f32eb4a2be04a2d712f6e17c_galler%20di%20testa2_400x400.jpg http://www.cantieremilanocentrale.it/media/images/gallery/image_2aebd374433084ef2032b95a7889756a_galler%20di%20testa3_400x400.jpg

http://www.cantieremilanocentrale.it/media/images/gallery/image_c42ec39a0bcf178bebaf58b13cd5fdad_gall%20carrozze%20ponte%20tapis400x400.jpg http://www.cantieremilanocentrale.it/media/images/gallery/image_8a3bed15c86ada18bcbf4ae07411fe14_gall%20carrozze%20tapis400x400.jpg

http://www.cantieremilanocentrale.it/media/images/gallery/image_ba39c88cc0364ed280fe84c748da4d16_gall%20carrozze%20tapis2_400x400.jpg http://www.cantieremilanocentrale.it/media/images/gallery/image_334a2c77167495948bc91c4a6a12ce29_gall%20carrozze%20pont400x400.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2235/2468421356_35e2fe1858_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2039/2468142292_24f25ac50c_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2115/2343713030_846310c415_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3167/2342972609_e4953b4712_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2287/2343714068_7b9a9c9013_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2409/2342932727_722b3d2c9b_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2074/2343795552_9e5221593b_b.jpg

http://www.corriere.it/vivimilano/Corriere%20della%20Sera/Fotogallery/Tagliate/2008/04_Aprile/18/STA/01.JPG

http://www.corriere.it/vivimilano/Corriere%20della%20Sera/Fotogallery/Tagliate/2008/04_Aprile/18/STA/04.JPG

http://www.corriere.it/vivimilano/Corriere%20della%20Sera/Fotogallery/Tagliate/2008/04_Aprile/18/STA/05.JPG

http://www.corriere.it/vivimilano/Corriere%20della%20Sera/Fotogallery/Tagliate/2008/04_Aprile/18/STA/06.JPG

http://www.corriere.it/vivimilano/Corriere%20della%20Sera/Fotogallery/Tagliate/2008/04_Aprile/18/STA/07.JPG

http://www.corriere.it/vivimilano/Corriere%20della%20Sera/Fotogallery/Tagliate/2008/04_Aprile/18/STA/08.JPG

http://www.corriere.it/vivimilano/Corriere%20della%20Sera/Fotogallery/Tagliate/2008/04_Aprile/18/STAZ/15.JPG

city_thing

July 21st, 2008, 03:54 PM

I'm dying from jealousy at the moment. God damn you Milan, you're beautiful.

Dale

July 21st, 2008, 05:24 PM

GENIUS LOCI -

Splendido! on the renovation.

hans280

July 22nd, 2008, 03:06 PM

GENIUS LOCI -

Splendido! on the renovation.

Yeah, I agree. The essence of the renovations looks very similar to the ones they just completed at Gare de l'Est here in Paris. With the one difference that Milan's railway architecture looked much grander to start with. :)

Kuvvaci

October 10th, 2008, 11:21 PM

wonderful stations :okay:

Perennial Quest

November 26th, 2008, 10:22 PM

A couple of weeks ago a new livrey for the ETR500 was presented.
Here a couple of pics where you can see the old and the new livrey (the red one):

http://i36.tinypic.com/2r5rr6s.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/50qgeq.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/2mo4ef5.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/1zyk12r.jpg

Railfan

November 27th, 2008, 09:04 PM

Nice train!

wronny

December 4th, 2008, 03:36 PM

Within ten days it will be inaugurated the new High Speed Railway between Milano and Bologna (200 km).
During the commercial service, the train will reach the maximum speed of 300 km/h.
In the meantime, during a test on the Bologna-Firenze High Speed Railway (78,5 km), that will be inaugurated next year and that runs for about the 90% in tunnel, another ETR500 has reached the speed of 340,2 km/h. Not bad for a very antiquated and bankrupt train, as someone supports in these pages.

http://www.ferrovie.it/fol.tim/img/FN2523101.jpg

Dinuś

December 4th, 2008, 04:48 PM

^^ Great news! :banana: Does anyone have an updated map of Italian High-Speed lines?

wronny

December 4th, 2008, 05:22 PM

Here:

http://www.ferroviedellostato.it/cms-file/allegati/_shared/Alta_Velocita.pdf

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/immagini/rfi/avac2008piccola.png

wronny

December 4th, 2008, 11:33 PM

And this is the "New" Stazione Centrale di Milano, where will arrive the ETR500

http://www.webalice.it/wronny/Immagini/Stazione%20Centrale.jpg

Eddard Stark

December 4th, 2008, 11:48 PM

Here:

http://www.ferroviedellostato.it/cms-file/allegati/_shared/Alta_Velocita.pdf

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/immagini/rfi/avac2008piccola.png

I would like to add that the offer of Trenitalia will change dramatically with the opening of the MIlano-Bologna AV line, basically starting the core of the AV project in Italy.

There will be a train every 30 minutes between Rome and Milan, with some trains reaching Naples and Turin as well. Trains will take only 3:30 minutes in some cases between Rome and Milan. Between Rome and Genoa, Bari, Venezia and Verona there will be faster trains taking 3:59 minutes. This is by no means final, still many pieces are missing from the project (the Novara-Turin line, The Bologna-Firenze line and the last 20km of the Rome-Naples line)

Anyway, Italy (actually a fairly long country) will finally shrink in size!

Perennial Quest

December 7th, 2008, 08:40 PM

ETR500 Frecciarossa @ 300 km/h on the new AV Milano-Bologna route.

BwxKlM5M6Mg

GENIUS LOCI

December 9th, 2008, 03:40 PM

Etr 600 Freccia argento

Freccia Argento (sito Trenitalia) e a Lodi (Trainzitalia, nick: Alex)

http://i33.tinypic.com/j0f7tz.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/2jdnime.jpg

Verso

December 9th, 2008, 03:50 PM

Wow, I didn't know Italian trains were so fast, I thought they drove just 160 km/h (which still wouldn't be bad).

Federicoft

December 9th, 2008, 04:05 PM

Why 160? Lol. You concentrate too much on highways. :P

Anyway it's a big problem. They should absolutely invest much more on advertising, set some useless speed record and things like that.
Everybody knows France for its high speed trains for instance. We are spending dozens of billions € in one of the biggest high speed lines project in the world and hardly anyone knows anything about it, not even our neighbours (and I suspect many Italians don't know anything either).

Verso

December 9th, 2008, 04:37 PM

Why 160?

I thought the average speed was even lower. :D Once I was looking at some HSLs, and their average speeds seemed to be just about 140 km/h. :dunno: A funny thing on the Trenitalia website is that by all intl trains (http://www.trenitalia.com/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f4e43bf7c819a110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD) between Italy and its neighboring countries they put a pic of a Slovenian pendolino, which doesn't even run in Italy any more. :lol:

elfabyanos

December 9th, 2008, 08:02 PM

elfabyanos

December 9th, 2008, 08:55 PM

Does anyone know what this construction is to the south of Bologna? It looks suspiciously like a new railway line is being constructed.

http://wikimapia.org/#lat=44.4561151&lon=11.3727593&z=16&l=0&m=s&v=1

Federicoft

December 9th, 2008, 09:21 PM

That's the Bologna-Florence HSL, due to open in December 2009.
From that point on the railway will run underground through the city centre in a new tunnel which is u/c along with a new HS station and will be completed in 2012. Until then trains will run on the old line through Bologna.

http://www.italferr.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e6c080e509eda110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD

Map:
http://www.italferr.it/cms-file/allegati/italferr/NodoBologna.pdf

elfabyanos

December 10th, 2008, 11:27 AM

Thx

Eddard Stark

December 10th, 2008, 01:08 PM

I thought the average speed was even lower. :D Once I was looking at some HSLs, and their average speeds seemed to be just about 140 km/h. :dunno: A funny thing on the Trenitalia website is that by all intl trains (http://www.trenitalia.com/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f4e43bf7c819a110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD) between Italy and its neighboring countries they put a pic of a Slovenian pendolino, which doesn't even run in Italy any more. :lol:

Average speed is one thing, top speed is another, commercial speed one more. Top speed reached on our AV lines is about 360Km/H. Commercial speed on new AV lines is pretty much everywhere 300Km/H, which is the speed the train maintains after leaving station and before reaching next. Consider it as the 130Km/h speed limit on highways.

Average speed is not used usually to measure AV lines. Average speed is actually the time it takes to travel between 2 stations divided per the distance. This of course is lower than commercial speed because of acceleration, deceleration and the pieces of urban railways which usually are not AV (for example Milan). Average speed on Milan-Bologna is theoretically about 200 km/h (65 minutes to cover 220km)

That said...average speed on highways is not 130km/h: to go from Milan to Bologna it doesn't take one and half hour for the same reason as for the train: you have to get in and out the city. So the average time is about 2 hours and 20 minutes (with no traffic problems of course). The average "highway" speed between the 2 city center is then about 100km/h

I hope that's clear

keber

December 10th, 2008, 02:47 PM

Not only that, even on high speed lines actual speed of train varies quite a lot because of track configuration (hills etc). Especially evident is that on Paris-Lyon TGV track. And as I noticed even on Firenze-Roma line, where Pendolinos rarely reach maximum speed 250 km/h.

GENIUS LOCI

December 10th, 2008, 03:04 PM

^^
Firenze-Roma was designed for a maximum speed of 250 km/h

It was the first HSR stretch in Italy (and in Europe) built in '70s
Now there is a project to upgrade it to allow 300 km/h speed

Amuse2000

December 10th, 2008, 03:04 PM

plottigat

December 10th, 2008, 08:00 PM

Now there is a project to upgrade it to allow 300 km/h speed
A project? I thought the upgrading was already u/c!

In 2009 the fastest milan-rome train will take 3 hours, and in 2012 when bologna's hs station will be finished?

Verso

December 10th, 2008, 08:06 PM

Average speed is one thing, top speed is another, commercial speed one more. Top speed reached on our AV lines is about 360Km/H. Commercial speed on new AV lines is pretty much everywhere 300Km/H, which is the speed the train maintains after leaving station and before reaching next. Consider it as the 130Km/h speed limit on highways.

Average speed is not used usually to measure AV lines. Average speed is actually the time it takes to travel between 2 stations divided per the distance. This of course is lower than commercial speed because of acceleration, deceleration and the pieces of urban railways which usually are not AV (for example Milan). Average speed on Milan-Bologna is theoretically about 200 km/h (65 minutes to cover 220km)

That said...average speed on highways is not 130km/h: to go from Milan to Bologna it doesn't take one and half hour for the same reason as for the train: you have to get in and out the city. So the average time is about 2 hours and 20 minutes (with no traffic problems of course). The average "highway" speed between the 2 city center is then about 100km/h

I hope that's clear

Yeah, I know that, but if the top speed is 300 km/h, how can then the average speed be just about 140 km/h? (I remember a similar average speed looking at driving times on Italian railways)

Or average speeds on Italian HSRs are higher?

GENIUS LOCI

December 10th, 2008, 08:21 PM

Actually nowadays the only stretches completed of the Milano-Roma-Napoli is Firenze-Roma-Napoli

Then if you bring an ETR 500 to Napoli from Milan it will reach just on Roma -Napoli maximum speed of 300 km/h and between Firenze and Roma a 250 km/h maximum speed
On the other stretches HS train run on traditional railways with all other convoys and reach a top speed of less than 200 km/h
Then now real HS is only from Firenze to Napoli
On December 12th Milano Bologna HS tracks will be opened and in Dec. 2009 even Bologna-Firenze: only in that date Milano-Napoli HSR will be fully operational

elfabyanos

December 10th, 2008, 11:27 PM

Genious Loci - the project to upgrade the Drrettissima - will that require new railway or will it just have some realignment and change of juice to 25kV AC?

elfabyanos

December 10th, 2008, 11:33 PM

Not only that, even on high speed lines actual speed of train varies quite a lot because of track configuration (hills etc). Especially evident is that on Paris-Lyon TGV track.

Some of the line is restricted to 270km/h at the south end near Dijon and Lyon, which used to be the max speed of the TGVs. The TGVs were upgraded but some of the track couldn't be. The French learnt from this mistake though.

keber

December 11th, 2008, 07:40 AM

Genious Loci - the project to upgrade the Drrettissima - will that require new railway or will it just have some realignment and change of juice to 25kV AC?
Realignment of some sharp curves and 25 kV power supply.

GENIUS LOCI

December 11th, 2008, 10:22 AM

Meanwhile... if you want to drive an ETR 500 (old one) at 300 km/h on Roma-Firenze

http://www.o-zoners.com/eurostar/eurodriver.html

:)

Eddard Stark

December 11th, 2008, 12:52 PM

Yeah, I know that, but if the top speed is 300 km/h, how can then the average speed be just about 140 km/h? (I remember a similar average speed looking at driving times on Italian railways)

Or average speeds on Italian HSRs are higher?

I told you...between Milan and Bologna in a few days average speed will be more than 200 km/h

If you refer to the other 2 new AV lines open (Torino-Milano and Roma-Napoli) in reality they are not completed: the Torino Milano is only 2/3 completed. it takes only 25 minutes to go from Turin to Novara where the new line stops (so 216km/h average speed). The Roma-Napoli is almost completed, but 20 km are not. The "official" time to make the 220km is 1h and 27minutes but in reality more often than not it takes just 1h and 10-15 minutes. When the last 20 km will be finished it will be 1 hour, so more than 200 km/h average speed.

To summarize: the 2 existing line are not complited, the first new AV line in Italy will be opened in a matter of days (if we exclude the slower Firenze-Roma finished in 1992)

Eddard Stark

December 11th, 2008, 12:55 PM

Yeah, I know that, but if the top speed is 300 km/h, how can then the average speed be just about 140 km/h? (I remember a similar average speed looking at driving times on Italian railways)

Or average speeds on Italian HSRs are higher?

On top of course average speed on the non-AV relations are of course that of a traditional railway...so if you looked at Milano-Venezia for example that average speed is probably accurate since commercial speed anyway is 180km usually on traditional railways in Italy (a few pieces at 200 many at 160-140)

Federicoft

December 11th, 2008, 01:57 PM

BTW some renderings of the new Bologna TAV station, next to the old Bologna Central Station.

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/9224/hrx4s79819152kk0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/1637/5po0n49824792hm7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/8058/t99m4x9821912qp5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/8881/foto59832497ky1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/7414/zone2bcgplatform9846669fo3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/65/zone2bcgviacarracci9837oo3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/4811/zone2bcginterior1986200do1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

High Speed trains will stop here, passing through Bologna city centre in a brand new tunnel, reaching Milan in 55 min. and Rome in 1h. 45 min.

GENIUS LOCI

December 11th, 2008, 02:47 PM

^^
Actually this is the Bologna Central station project of renovation, while HS station is U/C now and will be completely underground close to Bologna Centrale (pratically Bologna Centrale will be a station with 4 more underground platforms for HS trains)

http://www.concorsostazionebologna.it/img/dpp/stazioneAV.jpg

http://www.concorsostazionebologna.it/img/dpp/cartografiaurbana.jpg

http://www.concorsostazionebologna.it/img/dpp/stazioneAVvirtuale.jpg

Obviously all will be integrated in the Bologna Centrale renewal you posted

Federicoft

December 11th, 2008, 03:08 PM

Yeah, basically a new underground station will be built next to the old one. That's exactly what I meant.

hans280

December 11th, 2008, 03:39 PM

Anyway it's a big problem. They should absolutely invest much more on advertising, set some useless speed record and things like that.
Everybody knows France for its high speed trains for instance. We are spending dozens of billions € in one of the biggest high speed lines project in the world and hardly anyone knows anything about it, not even our neighbours (and I suspect many Italians don't know anything either).

...and whatever members of the Italian public DO know they tend to scoff about. I know this first hand because I work in Paris together with a couple of Italian colleagues. They are both somewhat in awe of the "tight shop" that is French project management. The new line is typically conceived as an integrated approach: the actual tracks from end-to-end; power; signalling; so-and-so many newly built or renovated stations.... it is all part of the project and it will all be finished at the same time, at which point the new line is taken into use whole and full and without any "temporary solutions".

I will not sport with your intelligence by saying that French LGV projects are always finished on time. More often than not, a delay (one!) is announced during the project phase, whereupon a revised time schedule is drawn up and communicated to the public. Further revisions to the revised scedule have been very rare. According to Antonio and Silvia (the said colleagues) this compares favourably with the practices of FS, who announces deadlines that are broken one time after the other and, in the end, proudly declare that the new line to Naples will now be inaugurated... minus the last 25 km in Campania which will follow later; or the line to Bologna to be inaugurated end 2009... minus the station which will follow three years later. I mean... for Pete's sake, the whole connection from Turin to Salerno was - according to plans presented around 2000 - supposed to be finalised in etapes between 2005 and 2007.

In my (admittedly Protestant) view, it is hardly surprising that people don't take such practices seriously. :ohno:

GENIUS LOCI

December 11th, 2008, 04:27 PM

Test on Milano-Bologna

Piacenza. Per Trainzitalia postato da: E.655.540.

http://i38.tinypic.com/2agn30i.jpg

Saliceto (PC). Per Trainzitalia postato da: THE MAX

http://i34.tinypic.com/3532vbt.jpg

GENIUS LOCI

December 11th, 2008, 04:53 PM

ETR 500 speed record (355 km/h) on Milano-Bologna HSR testing

ScBYOvBb9Ug

hkskyline

December 13th, 2008, 07:00 PM

Italy launches Milan-Bologna high-speed train link

MILAN, Dec 13 (Reuters) - Italy launched a high-speed train link between the northern cities of Milan and Bologna on Saturday, part of a planned expansion to reach Rome next year and woo passengers away from airlines.

The fast train will cut travel time between the two cities to 65 minutes, state railway company unit Trenitalia said. Other trains take about twice as long on average to cover the 210-km (130-mile) stretch.

"The train has become a transport solution for everyone and throws out a challenge to the airplane," Trenitalia said in a statement.

Regular high-speed service from Milan to Bologna will start on Sunday. Italy has three other fast train routes.

The high-speed service is scheduled to reach Rome next year and cut travel time between Milan, Italy's financial centre, and the capital to three-and-a-half hours non-stop.

The state railway company, Ferrovie dello Stato, aims to corner 60 percent of the market for travel by any method over the route over the next two years, Chief Executive Mauro Moretti said.

The quicker train service has started as a group of Italian businessmen embark on an ambitious project to relaunch bankrupt national airline Alitalia SpA . Alitalia's main attraction is its dominance of the Rome-Milan air route.

Federicoft

December 13th, 2008, 08:14 PM

The high-speed service is scheduled to reach Rome next year and cut travel time between Milan, Italy's financial centre, and the capital to three-and-a-half hours non-stop.

Less than three hours actually.

Perennial Quest

December 13th, 2008, 09:24 PM

ETR480:
xnkbJ-zIsu0

serdar samanlı

December 13th, 2008, 10:09 PM

What is the difference of TAV from Eurostar Italia?

Federicoft

December 14th, 2008, 12:46 AM

TAV stands for Treno ad Alta Velocità (High Speed Train), but it is commonly used to refer to the railway line proper, i.e. the infrastructure.
Eurostar Italia is the commercial name of the trains that run on it, although I think that name will be discontinued soon.

GENIUS LOCI

December 14th, 2008, 04:51 AM

Some pics of inauguration of HSR Milano Bologna in Milano Centrale by various italian forumers

prime immagini dalla centrale

altre più tardi

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4060/img2676nv9.jpg

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/2741/img2673mz0.jpg

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/1090/img2647ql9.jpg

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/8705/img2646vs5.jpg

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/3694/img2645so3.jpg

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/4926/img2644eb0.jpg

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2761/img2643uq7.jpg

ecco le altre foto

i treni

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8720/img2652jk0.jpg

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4388/img2654ol9.jpg

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/3247/img2655te3.jpg

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6066/img2656qv1.jpg

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/1689/img2661yi7.jpg

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/6374/img2662wc9.jpg

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/7751/img2668hc1.jpg

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/9168/img2669ru4.jpg

gli interni

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/6667/img2658cw4.jpg

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/7184/img2660yc3.jpg

La Moratti

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/8553/img2663vz5.jpg

è partito

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/489/img2670sh7.jpg

il nuovo passaggio verso il metrò

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3371/img2648jv3.jpg

il palco autorità

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/4691/img2675je3.jpg

l'area stampa

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/3075/img2671vo2.jpg

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5489/img2677ov2.jpg

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/122/img2678ga3.jpg

Bel reportage Tony... :cheers:

La freccia Argento o Paperotto, come lo chiam Joga... :cheers: Fighissimo!

http://i34.tinypic.com/1217pc4.jpg

Ma, scusate, visto che eravate tutti in stazione non potevate aspettare un po' che arrivavo anch'io?

Ero per puro caso da quelle parti (presentazione di un libro all'auditorium Gaber) quando ho sentito della musica provenire dalla stazione, la tentazione è stata troppo forte: Concerto della banda dei Carabinieri

Foto senza cappello:

http://i37.tinypic.com/257zzae.jpg

Foto con cappello: Inno di Mameli

http://i35.tinypic.com/1zcjo28.jpg

E, per finire, bellissimo spettacolo di fuochi artificiali e musica in piazza duca d'Aosta.

Perennial Quest

December 14th, 2008, 01:53 PM

Two trains on the Milano-Bologna during the testing runs.

bel video di marcia parallela sulla milano-bologna (230 vs 300 km/h)

_n660inIbnY

Federicoft

December 14th, 2008, 02:02 PM

The Milano-Bologna HSL has entered into commercial service this morning.

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/8603/mibo2ws6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/102/mibo1iq7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Verso

December 14th, 2008, 04:30 PM

Congrats, beautiful trains.

keber

December 14th, 2008, 06:54 PM

Nice trains, but ugly seats.

Perennial Quest

December 15th, 2008, 12:26 AM

Nice trains, but ugly seats.

More than the seats themselves, I don't like that brown colour.
Although they're new, this way they doesn't seem very...clean.

GENIUS LOCI

December 15th, 2008, 12:33 AM

Other pics of Milano Centrale

stamattina ho accompagnato la ragazza a fare il first certificate all'atahotel executive, e seguentemente (con l'abusata scusa del 'tanto è qui vicino') ho fatto con lei un salto alla stazione centrale e ho scattato alcune foto.

si comincia con una inquadratura abusata, ma d'obbligo per illustrare l'impressione della galleria delle carrozze finalmente (quasi) del tutto sgombra:

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9311/img0024ly9.jpg

ed ecco le rampe mobili degli ellissi in funzione! naturalmente un bel giro non me l'ha levato nessuno!

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3429/img0025nb6.jpg

l'atrio e le biglietterie...

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/7396/img0026jf7.jpg

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/3308/img0027vt2.jpg

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/1237/img0028gs5.jpg

il tabaccaio ha guadagnato una rutilante insegna rossa...

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/1609/img0029qd1.jpg

la galleria di testa.

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6279/img0030jv4.jpg

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/7618/img0031qd7.jpg

i tabelloni (quando spariranno quelli vecchi ci sarà una fantastica vista dal piano binari alla galleria di testa attraverso gli arconi!)

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/6175/img0032wl0.jpg

e infine i marciapiedi per servizio AV (niente treni purtroppo, ma si intravede un cisalpino etr470 nella seconda)

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3769/img0033cz9.jpg

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/244/img0034fc8.jpg

sdf11

December 15th, 2008, 01:15 AM

I like the contrast old/new of the new Milano station....but the trains are the bad contrast I think...maybe when arrives the new AGV Italy will can fight with other countries in HST...

Also I have a dubt...Is this the same train that the Renfe HST S114??? its very similar...

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/3247/img2655te3.jpg

Renfe S114:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3250/3015615744_6b5a4ea40e.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3210/3014793833_d43f24c8ee.jpg?v=0

Eddard Stark

December 15th, 2008, 02:06 AM

More than the seats themselves, I don't like that brown colour.
Although they're new, this way they doesn't seem very...clean.

they are almost 20 years old...they have been under a restyling. Actually inside they are very roomy and nice, much better than TGV and ICE IMHO. Probably you cannot fell that from the pictures.

And outside the Frecciarossa is very nice...but I guess it's a matter of taste

The new trains from Alstom will be instead for NTV the competitor of Trenitalia. Italy will be the first country with a private HSR company challenging the former private monopolist.

Coccodrillo

December 15th, 2008, 07:05 AM

Also I have a dubt...Is this the same train that the Renfe HST S114??? its very similar...

Yes.

But the italian version is a tilting train (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendolino), the spanish one doesn't tilt.

GENIUS LOCI

December 15th, 2008, 09:54 AM

they are almost 20 years old...Not at all... the old ETR 500 are these ones

http://users.atw.hu/diesirae/FENYKEP/ITA/ETR500_MilanoCle6.JPG

While 'new' ETR 500 are in line since the beginning of 2000

http://users.atw.hu/diesirae/FENYKEP/ITA/ETR500_MilanoCle2.JPG

...they just choose awful seats

Eddard Stark

December 15th, 2008, 10:42 AM

Genius they just changed the loco...but the wagons are the same ones.

I don't find seats ugly, maybe it looks so from the picture. I have travelled many times on them and they are nice and cozy. The table in the middle, in a nice wood material, is much better than the usual plastic stuff you get on trains or airplanes. And the bathrooms (which were the weak point of the pre-restyling ETR500) look like something from a stylish bar.

finally, what you see in pictures is the second class. First class and business areas are so confortable that there is no comparison with any other train I have travelled with in Europe

cristof

December 15th, 2008, 10:50 AM

amazing, so now, we can go from Milano to Roma in using the High speed train during all the journey?

GENIUS LOCI

December 15th, 2008, 10:59 AM

Genius they just changed the loco...but the wagons are the same ones.

I think you miss my point

They restyled this ETR 500 version (politensione)

From this...

http://users.atw.hu/diesirae/FENYKEP/ITA/ETR500_MilanoCle2.JPG

...to this

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/02gO3kv2uzfrv/610x.jpg

While old version of ETR 500 (monotensione), wich is the train you say has 20 years of 'life', hasn't been renewed (I don't think they use it in the future for new HS links)

http://users.atw.hu/diesirae/FENYKEP/ITA/ETR500_MilanoCle6.JPG

Eddard Stark

December 15th, 2008, 11:01 AM

amazing, so now, we can go from Milano to Roma in using the High speed train during all the journey?

Not yet: next year they will open the last piece which is the Bologna-Firenze. This HSR is a fantastic engineering work, basically almost uninterrupt succession of 80km of tunnels betweent the 2 cities. Only the tunnel under the channel is comparable. Unfortunately it will not beat the world record since they are basically 5 different tunnels with few hundreds meters (sometimes few meters) open air in between. This line will cut almost 30 minutes more between Rome and Milan

But that's not all: in 2011 also the new HSR connection under Bologna should open, a 15 km tunnel which will bypass the city and connect the 2 HSR line Milano-Bologna and Bologna-Firenze. By then (hopefully) also the new HSR underground station of Bologna should open. This link should cut 15 minutes between Rome and Milan so it's an important piece of the project too.

So if everything goes according to plans, it would be possible in 2011 to connect Rome and Milan in 2 and half hours no stop. And that year the NTV - the private competitor of Trenitalia - will start its operation. So Italy may find itself suddenly on the forefront of HSR in europe

cristof

December 15th, 2008, 11:06 AM

Eddard Stark

December 15th, 2008, 11:07 AM

I think you miss my point

They restyled this ETR 500 version (politensione)

From this...

http://users.atw.hu/diesirae/FENYKEP/ITA/ETR500_MilanoCle2.JPG

...to this

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/02gO3kv2uzfrv/610x.jpg

While old version of ETR 500 (monotensione), wich is the train you say has 20 years of 'life', hasn't been renewed (I don't think they use it in the future for new HS links)

http://users.atw.hu/diesirae/FENYKEP/ITA/ETR500_MilanoCle6.JPG

Maybe I am wrong but I am quite sure: they changed just the loco between monotensione and politensione...the wagons (the 12 wagons after the loco) are the same ones...20 years old more or less. They were extremely good wagons so they are still up to date.

Trenitalia bought some years ago new locomotives for all ETR500 because of the decision to make new HSR lines at polytension instead of the normal monotension which we have in Italy

Eddard Stark

December 15th, 2008, 11:09 AM

wahou great, thanks for the summary ;)
maybe the train will reach brussels so i could go to milano in HSR directly,
is there a connection from Milano to the france to connect the HSR in italy with Paris?

You don't wanna go there...we have been discussing a HSR link between Turin and Lion for quite a VERY long time...there are issues on the alpine valleys which do not want the line but they seem on the point to be fixed. Anyway we will not see HSR opened before 2025...my forecast.

cristof

December 15th, 2008, 11:18 AM

ok, so wait and see ;)

GENIUS LOCI

December 15th, 2008, 11:50 AM

Maybe I am wrong but I am quite sure: they changed just the loco between monotensione and politensione...I knew they refurbished the wagons

Anyway by my personal experience, on old TGV interiors are quite ugly and dirty as they're the original ones, while on 'new' duplex TGV are very good
If I'm not wrong there was a refurbishment program for TGV old version trains

Federicoft

December 15th, 2008, 12:05 PM

GENIUS LOCI

December 15th, 2008, 12:08 PM

You don't wanna go there...we have been discussing a HSR link between Turin and Lion for quite a VERY long time...there are issues on the alpine valleys which do not want the line but they seem on the point to be fixed. Anyway we will not see HSR opened before 2025...my forecast.

Without waiting 2025 (bit pessimistic, anyway) TGV trains reach Milan even today and there are Italian ETR 460 in line on Lyon-Milan connection, obviously using traditional rail
Then within few years, even with a not fully completed HSR link between France and Italy, you could bring a HS train between Paris and Rome (and Naples, don't forget HSR Rome-Naples is open since last year) with 'just' Lyon-Turin not HS (maybe from Lyon to Italian border it will work in few years, anyway, as they started to build the line since 2 years at least)

sotavento

December 15th, 2008, 04:55 PM

Maybe I am wrong but I am quite sure: they changed just the loco between monotensione and politensione...the wagons (the 12 wagons after the loco) are the same ones...20 years old more or less. They were extremely good wagons so they are still up to date.

Trenitalia bought some years ago new locomotives for all ETR500 because of the decision to make new HSR lines at polytension instead of the normal monotension which we have in Italy

they picked the 30 "old" (dating from 1992?) intermediate coaches of each ETR500 consist and replaced the old monotension locomotives (clas 414) with new bi-tension locomotives(class 404).

The new ETR500 are some 60 consists ... 30 of them use the old intermediate cars ... and these consists have been recently revamped ... the remaining cars were built new in year 2000.

the old locomotives class 414 now operate in consists of "conventional" coaches:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/it/electric/E414/160407_e414.jpg
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/it/electric/E414/FS_E414-132__2007-06-30_Milano.jpg
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/it/electric/E414/pix.html

the new colors of the ETR500 look much more stilish than the old green one:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/it/electric/emu/ETR500/dual/AV/Etr_500_2.jpg
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/it/electric/emu/ETR500/dual/AV/FS_ETR500-04__90_83_5_199_238-7__ToPN-01.jpg

ETR485 Pendolino also looks great in its new colors:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/it/electric/emu/ETR485/FS_ETR485-32-09_ETR485-052_BAC__2006-12-02_VeronaPN-09.jpg

sotavento

December 15th, 2008, 04:55 PM

I knew they refurbished the wagons

Anyway by my personal experience, on old TGV interiors are quite ugly and dirty as they're the original ones, while on 'new' duplex TGV are very good
If I'm not wrong there was a refurbishment program for TGV old version trains

SNCF also swapped traction between some duplex consists and some old ones for the new East routes. :dunno:

Perennial Quest

December 15th, 2008, 05:15 PM

[cut]
the new colors of the ETR500 look much more stilish than the old green one:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/it/electric/emu/ETR500/dual/AV/Etr_500_2.jpg

The colour scheme has been changed another time since theese pictures. Now ETR500 (404) trains have much more red all over them (see pics below).
BTW I prefer them coloured like in your pics. :cheers:

GENIUS LOCI

December 16th, 2008, 12:35 AM

Sorry but I couldn't resist to post other pics of Milano Centrale renovation

posto questa foto che ho fatto, molto carina della biglietteria EST

Il vecchio e il nuovo

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/3121/imgp1745fn5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Queste le cose che mi sono piaciute, e non c'è molto da commentare , solo da ammirare...

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/7242/14dec2008001kl2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/5781/14dec2008024an7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/9428/14dec2008025jo0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/2260/14dec2008005nf6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/1741/14dec2008009ut6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/3038/14dec2008023kl7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/3502/14dec2008018xw2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Spaces waiting for shops

Queste sono le cose che si prospettano bene, ma su cui per ora sospendo il giudizio..

La futura galleria commerciale, importantissima per far si che la stazione si affranchi almeno un po' dal degrado ambientale

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1036/14dec2008010ld9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/7133/14dec2008011dk5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

La bilgietteria: esteticamente è bellissima, e finalmente sono scomparsi per sempre gli orridi divisori in vetro, ma c'è qualcosa da rivedere nei turni di lavoro, perche' domenica alle 18:30 le code erano pazzesche ovunque, pochi gli sportelli aperti.

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/1566/14dec2008013ke8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Areas waiting they hurry up workin' and outside areas waiting for the mess to be stopped

E queste sono le cose che non mi sono piaciute per niente.

Qualche ritardo è comprensibile ed anche fisiologico , in un opera di tale portata, ma la parte verso IV novembre è MOLTO indietro

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4535/14dec2008015wz7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/2070/14dec2008016qf3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Il puttanaio automobilistico è totale..non tanto per il solito traffico, ma perche’ ci sono macchine depositate per ogni dove..l’ex-rotonda dei taxi in facciata.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/911/14dec2008026xr0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

….. Fin quasi dentro la Galleria delle carrozze. Conoscendo la ben nota civilta’ dell’automobilista milanese, spero sia prevista qualche piccola risistemazione della piazza, o ci troveremo ben presto i Suv davanti alle scale mobili…

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7092/14dec2008028mh8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Soprattutto, io vorrei tanto sapere cosa è previsto esattamente per le ex- biglietterie est e ovest, che non sono state neanche toccate, e si prestano fin troppo bene a diventare luogo di bivacco…per me sarebbero luogo ideale per i ristoranti, ma per ora sono vuote ed abbandonate…

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/9505/14dec2008004ra2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

hkskyline

December 16th, 2008, 04:57 AM

Is this related :

Italy launches Rome-Milan high-speed train
15 December 2008
Associated Press Newswires

ABOARD ES ITALIA AV 9427 (AP) - Just outside Milan, the countryside started to blur as the Italian Railway's new Red Arrow high-speed train reached its maximum velocity of 186 mph (300 kph).

Dario Rigamonti, a consultant traveling to Florence on Monday, moved to an empty window seat, gazing out in wonder: "It is impressive."

The speedier service shaves an hour off the lucrative 300-mile (500-kilometer) Milan-Rome route, connecting Italy's political and financial capitals in three hours and 30 minutes 18 times a day.

The timing of the new service, which launched Sunday, couldn't be better for the state-owned Italian Railway. Air service between Milan and Rome has been thrown into disarray with the relaunch of Alitalia, which lost passengers to trains and to the highways as wildcat strikes and reduced connections made air travel uncertain.

A second-class one-way ticket can cost around euro67 ($90.52), while an airline trip is at least euro90 ($121.59) and driving can cost some euro85 ($114.84) in gas and toll charges.

Italian Railway CEO Mauro Moretti aims to snag 60 percent of the 3.7 million passengers who fly the route every year.

But analyst Diego Petrocelli of Bain & Co. said they won't really start taking a bite out of air travelers until the time gets under three hours. Attainment of that goal is expected at the end of 2010 when the track between Florence and Bologna is improved to shorten that leg to 30 minutes.

The Italian Railway will have to consolidate passenger loyalty before 2011, when it faces private competition in the form of NTV, a new company led by Ferrari president Luca Cordero di Montezemolo.

The new company, which will launch with 25 11-car AGV trains by French engineering company Alstom SA, plans to connect Italy's most important business centers.

High-speed travel is not news in Europe. France launched the first TGV service in 1981, between Paris and Lyon, shortening a five-hour drive to two hours and 40 minutes. Germany's InterCity Express trains began service in 1991 and Spain started its first fast trains in 1992 to coincide with the Seville Expo that year.

The Spanish railway's high-speed service from Madrid to Barcelona took off in February, going after a chunk of Europe's busiest air route, which registered 4.7 million passengers in 2006.

The 400-mile (650-kilometer) trip by rail takes two hours and 38 minutes -- well under the three-hour benchmark for attracting frequent fliers.

Italy began its first-high-speed service on the Rome-Naples route in 2005.

The future will be connecting high-speed service with neighboring countries -- but that seems a while off, said Petrocelli.

Work on the hotly contested high-speed TAV line between Turin and Lyon in neighboring France was halted due to protests before the 2006 Winter Olympic Games -- and still has not resumed. The stretch is part of a European-wide project to connect Lisbon, Portugal and Kiev, Ukraine, by train.

------

Associated Press writers John Leicester contributed from Paris, Matt Moore from Berlin and Daniel Woolls from Madrid.

Federicoft

December 16th, 2008, 11:50 AM

Italy began its first-high-speed service on the Rome-Naples route in 2005.

Rome-Florence route, 1988. First purposely built HSL in Europe (1978-1993), second HS service after the TGV.

hans280

December 16th, 2008, 01:41 PM

Federico, I think there's an issue of time inconsistency here: by the standards these days (endorsed and proffered by the European Union...) for a line to classify as "high speed" you should be able to drive at least 250 km/h throughout. As far as I remember it is only on the northern half of the Direttissima that you can reach such speeds? I think this line counted as high speed when it was inaugurated, but not by the standards of our time.

Federicoft

December 16th, 2008, 02:18 PM

The Direttissima (Rome-Florence HSL) has a 250 km/h speed limit almost on its whole lenght and some slower stretches are being upgraded.

When the first stretch was opened in 1977, the speed was limited to 180 km/h (later upgraded to 200 km/h) due to the lack of proper signalling and HS train stocks. Of course that's not HS, but the infrastructure is nevertheless the same as today.

In 1988 the first Pendolinos entered into service and the line (which was nearly completed at the time) was upgraded at 250 km/h. That was the first HS service in Italy, the third in the world after the Shinkansen and the TGV. Way before the Rome-Naples line in 2005.

hans280

December 16th, 2008, 04:34 PM

^^ Ah, I see. I didn't realise that the southern part of the line was upgraded in 1988. But in that case, please tell me one thing: back in the days when FS still had a TAV site there was express reference to upgradings of the Diretissima in order to shave some minutes (a few minutes - not many) of the travel time between Rome and Florence. What kind of upgradings were they, if the line is already equipped for 250 km/h? And, in case you know, are these upgradings - whatever they are - currently progressing? I ask because as I remember it the improvements on this line were necessary to reduce travel times to the "magic three hours" on the future Milan-Rome service.

A separated but related question, in case anyone knows: are the travel times on the new Italian HSLs going to be affected by the implementation of new types of highspeed trains? I ask because the original 3 hours for Milan-Rome seemed to me a bit unambitious considering the length of the track. (For comparison: the 640 km Madrid-Barcelone in less than 2h40.) I was told by an Italian friend that this was partly because the old HS trains - the ETR 500 series - accelerates so famously slowly at speeds above 200 km/h. When the line passes through cities like Bologna and Florence this is of course a huge handicap. But... I'd have thought that with the new Pendolinos which are a comparatively lightweight train doing 250 km/h, not to mention NTV buying the new AGVs, the effective speed on the Italian HSLs should be about to increase. Does anyone know more?

Perennial Quest

December 16th, 2008, 05:26 PM

GENIUS LOCI

December 16th, 2008, 06:05 PM

For the second question: the 3 hours time on Milan-Rome is how it will long from Dec. 2009 when Bologna-Firenze HSL will be completed
But HS trains will share the tracks with traditional rail though while crossing Bologna and Florence, which slow the run in these two points.. we have to wait 2011 or 2012 (I think) to see both new underground HS city bypass completed, with new two underground HS stations to have less than 3 h. even with a max. speed of 300 km/h

Anyway I think it could be possible they could upgrade some stretces to 350 km/h or so: as I posted in previous pages ETR 500 could reach even a speed of 355 km/h, NTV (Trenitalia competitor for HS) will have new Agv wich could run at 360 km/h.. and Trenitalia itself probably will buy a 360 km/h new train (probably Hitachi)

Federicoft

December 16th, 2008, 06:31 PM

Federicoft

December 16th, 2008, 06:33 PM

For the second question: the 3 hours time on Milan-Rome is how it will long from Dec. 2009 when Bologna-Firenze HSL will be completed
But HS trains will share the tracks with traditional rail though while crossing Bologna and Florence, which slow the run in these two points.. we have to wait 2011 or 2012 (I think) to see both new underground HS city bypass completed, with new two underground HS stations to have less than 3 h. even with a max. speed of 300 km/h

When the urban bypasses in Bologna and Florence will be completed, travel time for non-stop trains between Rome and Milan will be 2h 30min.

GENIUS LOCI

December 16th, 2008, 08:01 PM

Time for an updated map (dec. 2008)

deep blue indicates operative HS stretches

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/immagini/rfi/avac2008piccola.png

hans280

December 17th, 2008, 12:50 PM

As I posted in previous pages ETR 500 could reach even a speed of 355 km/h, NTV (Trenitalia competitor for HS) will have new Agv wich could run at 360 km/h.. and Trenitalia itself probably will buy a 360 km/h new train (probably Hitachi)

Yeah, but if you take a second look at the video clip from the cabin of the train, it accelerates incredibly slowly. For comparison, I was sitting last week in a German ICE3 and it was virtually jumping like a rabbit from 200 km/h to 300 km/h. On very long unbroken stretches this doesn't matter so much, but if you have to slow down in Bologna and Firenze (and, dare I add, in the suburbs of Modena...) then a slow acceleration becomes a major handicap.

Perennial Quest

December 17th, 2008, 03:40 PM

I agree on the fact that ETR500 has a slow acceleration at high speeds. Another thing we should think about is that the ETR500 reached 355km/h during test runs. So we don't know how it would behave if it should reach that speed usually, during normal operation. Mostly regarding reliability and wear.

GENIUS LOCI

December 17th, 2008, 05:00 PM

^^
According Trenitalia official website

Frecciarossa - velocità 300/350 km all’ora

Frecciargento - velocità 250/285 km all’ora

Frecciabianca - velocità 220/230 km all’ora

http://www.trenitalia.com/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=7b3309296b85a110VgnVCM10000080a3e90aRCRD

Anyway the test was with a conventional train ETR 500, not modified

wronny

December 17th, 2008, 05:21 PM

... I'd have thought that with the new Pendolinos which are a comparatively lightweight train doing 250 km/h, not to mention NTV buying the new AGVs, the effective speed on the Italian HSLs should be about to increase. Does anyone know more?

However, don't forget that Italy is a country full of mountains, on the contrary of other countries, therefore in many stretches it will not be possible to run over 300 km/h and sometimes over 250 km/h, due to the tunnels. For example, the Bologna-Firenze will be about 78 km long, 73 of which are in tunnel.
In these conditions 3 hours between Milan and Rome is a very short time.

dreaad

December 17th, 2008, 08:48 PM

^^
Firenze-Roma was designed for a maximum speed of 250 km/h

It was the first HSR stretch in Italy (and in Europe) built in '70s
Now there is a project to upgrade it to allow 300 km/h speed

no, it will remain @ 250 km/h because of the short curve radius (~3 km) while new italian HSL, like LGV Med and East in France have minimum radius of 5 km

TohrAlkimista

December 18th, 2008, 05:31 PM

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/cesaranto/album2/av1.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/cesaranto/album2/av3.jpg

http://www.aviazionecivile.com/vb/showthread.php?t=91678

Coccodrillo

December 20th, 2008, 02:01 PM

Frecciarossa - velocità 300/350 km all’ora

Frecciargento - velocità 250/285 km all’ora

Frecciabianca - velocità 220/230 km all’ora

300-250-200

Federicoft

December 20th, 2008, 04:59 PM

http://i41.tinypic.com/18k7rb.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/nn66ac.jpg

serdar samanlı

December 20th, 2008, 05:10 PM

What is the name of that bridge and where is it located?

Federicoft

December 20th, 2008, 05:14 PM

It's the bridge on the Po River, in San Rocco al Porto, on the Milan-Bologna HSL.

http://maps.google.it/maps?f=q&hl=it&geocode=&q=san+rocco+al+porto&sll=41.442726,12.392578&sspn=19.742502,46.582031&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=13&g=san+rocco+al+porto

dreaad

December 21st, 2008, 03:48 AM

TEST @ OVER 300 KM/H ON THE NEW HSL BOLOGNA-FLORENCE (78 km): OFFICIAL OPENING IN DECEMBER 2009

Ara1DnZuZXQ

what effect into tunnels!!

joseph1951

December 22nd, 2008, 01:43 AM

^^
According Trenitalia official website

http://www.trenitalia.com/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=7b3309296b85a110VgnVCM10000080a3e90aRCRD

Anyway the test was with a conventional train ETR 500, not modified

The ETR500 (first called Eurostar Italia, then Eurostar AV, and now re-branded Frecciarossa – Red arrow) is a conventional train with 2 locos (top and tail) enclosing 12 carriages.
It is too heavy and underpowered.

On the Italian HSLs built with the French philosophy it can develop only 8800 kW (with two locomotives active) and the train weighs 660tons, which means that is has a maximum power ratio of 13.7 kW /ton on 25 kW/ac, and 6.7 kW/ton on 3000 volt dc, with one panto raised.

The TGV’s, the AGV and the Velaro have about 22/kW/ton.

The Japanese Nozomis have far more power per ton than any Italian train mentioned here.

The ETR500 has a very sluggish acceleration from 160km/h to 300km/h and, from 160 km/h to 300km/h it has to run about 50 km!

The ETR500 is a 20 years old train. The FS engineers did not want it. The politician wanted it.

The ETR500 has another drawback.

Under the conventional 3000 volt dc it requires two pantographs to draw more than 6000kw. On the conventional lines fed on 3000 volt dc the 2 pantographs can be raised up to a speed of 130km/h.

On the Rome –Florence DD the 2 pantographs can be raised up to 220km/h.

Under 3000 volt dc one pantograph feeds only one loco which develops 4400 kW : too little for a train weighing 660 tons.

Thus on the Florence Rome DD its max sped is 220 km/h.

The pendolino family (ETRs 460, 485, 600) have a top speed of 250 km/h, but they can be pushed to 260-275 km/h. They are lighter, and they have better power/weight ratio than the ETR500.

Therefore the pendolinos can run on the DD at 250-270km/h with one pantograph raised whilst the ETR500 cannot run at those speeds.

It would have made sense to buy TGV Duplex or TG Pos Duplex. They are lighter, cheaper and have better performances than the ETR500.

It is true to say that the ETR500 Y, the ETR500 used for testing the HS lines, on reduced composition (2 loco + 3 carriages) has reached 355 km/h on the new HSL Milan –Bologna.

But, perhaps, it is worth to mention that it took 10 minutes and 44 second to pass from 199km/h to 355 km/h.
Also there were problems with the catenary and the pantograph.

From Milan Central station to the record speed of 355 km/h, the ETR500 Y run for 106 km!!!!!!!!!!!.

Italian new high speed lines

The
1- Milan – Bologna
2- Bologna - Florence
3- Rome - Naples
4- Turin - Milan

The maximum project speed of these lines is 300 km/h with some restrictions at 240-250 km/h. For instance on the Milan Bologna AV . Other restriction to 220 km/h are on the two segments of the the Milan-Venice- already built.

Milan Bologna - Historical line;
it is 219 km long of which 132 capabel of 200 km/h running. 20 years ago there was a proposal to bypass the seven intermediate stations (Modena, Parma, etc) by building section of line avoiding the crossing in these seven stations. With a modest cost 70 km of bypasses wuold have been built, thus allowing non stop trains to have 200km of line over 219 of its entire lenght capabel of sustaining 200km/h runnings. It was a cheap upgrade and thus dismissed. This upgrade of the historical Milan-Bologna is still necessary even after the construction of the so called HSL Milan-Bologna

Milan Bologna HSL

From Milan Central station to Lambrate 60 km/h (first 4 km from Milan Central Station)
From Milan Lambrate to Milan Rogoredo(?) 140 km/h (km 14 from MI- Central Station)
From Milan Rogoredo to Melegnano: 6 km at 200km/h
Then at km 20 from Milan Centrale the HSL begins .
The line has a top project speed of 300 km for about 150 km.

Then there are 34 km around Modena which can be taken at a maximum speed of 240 km/h.
Then, South of Modena, at Lavino, (about 10 km before Bologna Central Station) the catenary is feed at 3000 volt dc and the speed drops at 200 km/h.

The underground crossing of Bologna will occur – when the underground station is finished - at a greatly reduced speed , probably 60km/h , or 100km/h in the more optimistic option.

Furthermore, after the underground crossing of Bologna Central Station there will be a sharp curve which will limit the speed around 60km/h.

Then, to accelerate from 60 km/h to 250/300 km/h will be very time consuming.

Bologna -Florence

The new HSL Bologna – Florence will be about 78 km long , and at its extremities i.e.: Bologna and Florence, the old line will be used.

The historical line Bologna Florence is 97 Km/long . In the last 18 km has already 4 tracks.

In 1939 with the ETR200, the distance between Florence and Bologna was covered in 35 minutes. It would have been sufficient to upgrade this line to allow the transit of about 500 trains a day. The main problem limiting the capacity of the historical Bologna-Florence is its lack of switching points from one track to another which would allow a fast train to change track to overtake a slow train..
This upgrade would have cost very little.
Furthermore although in some points the Historical line and the new HSL run almost parallel there is no interconnection between the new Bologna-Florence HSL and the old line!
.
When the New Florence AV station (Firenze Belfiore) will become operational (year 2015??) the high speed trains not calling at Firenze Belfiore will transit through the station at 60 km/h!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This does not compare favourably with the French TGV Stations.

In France, and in other countries, trains not calling at certain stations , cross those stations at speed ranging from 200 km/h to 360 km/h. (The Avignon TGV Station was passed at 366 km/h).

Turin – Milan. 125 km of new HSL on the total line length of 153 km.
At the moment the HSL section opened is only 85 km long.

The ETR500 used in this line is of reduced formation of 2 locomotives + 8 carriages.
To accelerate from 160km/h to 300 the ETR500 has to run for about 50 km.

Although it reaches for a few seconds 299-300 km/h, the journey time of a non-stop Turin- Milan AV is 1h 22 minutes.
On the old Turin-Milan, the Paris-Milan TGV which is limited at 160 km/h and makes three stops covers the 153 km from Turin to Milan in 1h 26 minutes.

In the early ’90 the old pendolino ETR 450 was doing the 153 km from Turin to Milan in 1 h 12 minutes, on the historical line.

Florence – Rome DD

The old historical line is 316 km long. It has and index of tortuosity (i.e: curves) of over 50% with curves allowing top speeds of 95-105 km/h. The construction of a new fast line interconnected with the old one was a priority . Hence the DD, which has a top speed of 250 km/h.
At the end points, the 4 interconnected tracks are already insufficient. Namely between Rome and Orte (83 km) and Alto Mugello-Florence.

Hence the need of 2 extra tracks exclusively dedicated to Very High speed trains (360-400 km/h).
Also the shortest line between Milan –Rome (and Naples) is Not via Florence-Bologna.
The shortest line between Rome and Milan is from West of Rome , then it continues passing between Empoli and Florence, where it will connected to the existing lines for Florence on one side, and for Empoli-Pisa on the other side . (VHSL Rome-Piacenza)

Then it will continue straight up to Modena (interconnection) and then to Piacenza.

This new very high speed line would also considerably improve journey times not only between Rome to Milan but also with Genova (at Empoli-Siena interconnection), and with Turin (at Piacenza). At Piacenza the new Line will be joining the present HSL MI-BO.

Then with this new VHSL less than 2h15 minutes between Milan and Rome, and 3h 10 minutes between Milan -Naples will be feasible.

With the completion of Milan –Bologna and Bologna Florence HSL(in 2009) , the journey between Milan and Rome will not be achieved under 3 hours. At best some non- stop trains will cover the distance between Milan and Rome in 2h 55 minutes. Not fast enough to win all the airplane business between the two Cities.

Pisa, via a new VHSL will be at 1h 20 minutes from Rome.

Turin, via a new VHSL up to Piacenza and then Piacenza –Voghera-Alessandria-Asti will be 2 ½ hours from Rome.
A further reduction in journey time between Rome and Turin will be achieved if the section Piacenza –Alessandria –Asti is upgraded to 200-220 km/h.

Trenitalia
The top commercial speed for the ETR500 (now called Frecciarossa) on the new HSL’s is 250km/h.

The new HSLs built in Italy with the “French philosophy” have a thin catenary and the ondulatory problems occur at around 350-370 km/h with loss of contact between catenary and pantograph.
Therefore, unless a stronger catenary is installed it will be impossible to have commercial runs at 350-360 km/h on the new Italian HSLs.

On the contrary, the new French HSLs have ondulatory movement of the catenary at around 620 km/h (Ligne LGV Est).

The Paris –Lille-Calais was built with the possibility of raising its top speed up to 360 km/h. The same is true for the Lyon Marseille, and also for the LGV Atlantique.

In the German HSLs the ondulatory movements of the catenary occur at around 591 km/h.
Italy has no train yet capable of running on commercial speeds of 350-360 km/h.
The new High Speed Train capable of 350/360km/h has not yet been chosen.
At the moment Trenitalia has not even have enough ETR500 “Frecciarossa” sufficiently maintained to allow to all ETR500 top speeds of 250 km/h. On the newly opened Milan-Bologna HSL some ETR500 “Frecciarossa” are limited at 200km/h.

It is rumoured that the new Italian 350 km/h HST it will be the “Zefiro” to be built by built by the Consortium AnsaldoBreda/Bombardier.
The Zefiro is still on the conceptual phase ( i:e: drawings on a PDF format).
The specification for the 2nd series of the ETR500 (Now Frecciarossa) is clearly stated on Trenitalia website as having a maximum speed of 300 km/h.
Maximum speed does not mean maximum commercial speed.

Even the top speed of the AGV bought by NTV has been downgraded to 300 km/h.

Given the very short distance between medium size towns (100,000 – 400,000 inhabitants) Italy needs more trains capable of very high acceleration , such as the Talgo 350, rather than having train with a very hypothetical top speeds of 300-360 km/h .

The Talgo 350 can accelerate from 160 to 300 km/h in about a minute.

These type of considerations should not be dismissed lightly in view of the construction of the Turin-Novara- Vercelli -Milan- Brescia –Verona, Vicenza, Padua, Mestre Venice –Trieste.

Perhaps is worth noting that in this transversal HSL, Novara is 90 km from Turin and 50 from Milan. On the Venice side, Brescia is 83 km from Milan, Verona 60 km from Brescia, etc.

Hence, in this case, extremely fast acceleration is vital. Brescia, Verona, Padua are towns of 400,000 inhabitants. This HSL should be considered as a very fast metropolitan line.

Furthermore the new Talgo Avril will have a top speed of 380 km/h and will weigh less than 300 tons.
It will carry 400-500 passengers. Ideal for Milan- Brescia-Verona Padua, Mestre-Venice-Trieste.

Or, in alternative the Nozomi 500.
Or the TGV Pos Duplex.
Or the AGV, etc

The industrial triangle Turin –Milan-Genova.

Economically and industrially these three towns are one.
The all have over 1,000,000 inhabitants (Milan over 4 millions with its hinterland).
The are about 150 km from each other. Genova is a major Italian port (together with Savona which is 50 km west of Genova, towards Nice).

They are not adequately served by efficient and fast rail services
They have ben talking of linking these three large industrial towns with fast rail links since the early '60.

Sorry for the typos
.

dreaad

December 22nd, 2008, 02:35 AM

^^
from 160 km/h to 300km/h it has to run about 50 km

ok,ETR500 is slower than other high speed trains in terms of acceleration, but NOT so slower.
it's similar to ICE 2 in this sense.
for example, in the HSL turin-novara (first part completed of HSL turin-milan) long about 85 km, after 15-20 km from the beginning of HSL, the train goes @ 300 km/h (not always).

lthough it reaches for a few seconds 299-300 km/h, the journey time of a non-stop Turin- Milan AV is 1h 22 minutes.

that's because of the very slow interconnection between HSL and historical line in novara @ 30 km/h. in december 2009 the line will be completed and the trip time from turin porta nuova to milano centrale (main central stations) is reduced to 1h (50 minutes from turin porta susa).

On the old Turin-Milan, the Paris-Milan TGV which is limited at 160 km/h and makes three stops covers the 153 km from Turin to Milan in 1h 26 minutes.

TGVs start from turin porta susa station. ETR500 that runs on the HSL, starts from the porta nuova station. so you must add 10 minutes to the TGVs to be equivalent to ETR500 (1h36)

When the New Florence AV station (Firenze Belfiore) will become operational (year 2015??) the high speed trains not calling at Firenze Belfiore will transit through the station at 60 km/h!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

for reaching very high transit speed in these type of cities (florence and bologna for example), it is necessary to build an outside city interconnection (like paris), but it's much more complicated due the lack of space near the cities, where building the station in a favourauble position.
on the other side, mantaining the central station in the city centre for maximum interoperabilty, it's impossible to reach very high speed due to the urban track (even if it's underground)
the french model of HSL stations will be applied for the novara and reggio emilia stations ( this last one on the milan-bologna HSL), which are smaller cities like avignon, valence and some other on french HSLs.

With the completion of Milan –Bologna and Bologna Florence HSL(in 2009) , the journey between Milan and Rome will not be achieved under 3 hours. At best some non- stop trains will cover the distance between Milan and Rome in 2h 55 minutes. Not fast enough to win all the airplane business between the two Cities.

Pisa, via a new VHSL will be at 1h 20 minutes from Rome.

Turin, via a new VHSL up to Piacenza and then Piacenza –Voghera-Alessandria-Asti will be 2 ½ hours from Rome.
A further reduction in journey time between Rome and Turin will be achieved if the section Piacenza –Alessandria –Asti is upgraded to 200-220 km/h.

after the completion of all new italian HSLs, it can be possible travelling from milano rogoredo ("gate" station of milan) to roma tiburtina ("gate" station of rome) in 2h30'.

concerning the proposition of other HSLs, it would be wonderful, but actually there are no funds and, however, the population served by these new lines is not enough to be worth one's while.

The top commercial speed for the ETR500 (now called Frecciarossa) on the new HSL’s is 250 km/h.
:?:?:?:?:?

the present record is 355km/h as you wrote before

The new High Speed Train capable of 350/360km/h has not yet been chosen.

NTV (first alternative private railway company in italy) has already ordered 25 AGVs for 2011 when it will start the service. for trenitalia job order we have to wait yet...but AGV is not the favourite.

joseph1951

December 22nd, 2008, 08:21 AM

^^

ok,ETR500 is slower than other high speed trains in terms of acceleration, but NOT so slower.
it's similar to ICE 2 in this sense.

Reply : exactly

for example, in the HSL turin-novara (first part completed of HSL turin-milan) long about 85 km, after 15-20 km from the beginning of HSL, the train goes @ 300 km/h (not always).

Reply not true. The graphic shows that it reaches 299 km/h after 50 kms!

that's because of the very slow interconnection between HSL and historical line in novara @ 30 km/h. in december 2009 the line will be completed and the trip time from turin porta nuova to milano centrale (main central stations) is reduced to 1h (50 minutes from turin porta susa).

Reply:

1 hour for 153 km = 153 km/h.
On the Ligne Est the TGV covers 176,6 kms from station to station (start ad stop) in about 36 minutes and the average COMMERCIAL SPEED in excess of 279 km/h!

TGVs start from turin porta susa station. ETR500 that runs on the HSL, starts from the porta nuova station. so you must add 10 minutes to the TGVs to be equivalent to ETR500 (1h36)
Reply:
But the TGV stop at Porta Susa, Vercelli, Novara and Milan Central. It also travel on the historical line at a top speed of 160 km'/h.

In the historical line there are several speed restrictions (example: Novara station - 90 km/h)...

for reaching very high transit speed in these type of cities (florence and bologna for example), it is necessary to build an outside city interconnection (like paris), but it's much more complicated due the lack of space near the cities, where building the station in a favourauble position.

Reply:

NO . After Lavino it should have been possbile to continue with an avoiding line north of Bologna with a top speed of 220 km/h connecting to the Florence HSL at san Rufillo and also with a section to Ancona. This is called avoiding line, bypassing line, or similar (ceinture grande vitesse). The trains would have been able to call at Bologna Central and also for the non-stop Milan-Rome and Milan Ancona to avoid the crossing of Bologna Cntral Station.
Aso the excavation of underground station of Bologna is causing severe damages to the local buildings.

on the other side, mantaining the central station in the city centre for maximum interoperabilty, it's impossible to reach very high speed due to the urban track (even if it's underground)

Reply
The central station would have maintained its interoperablity for those trains calling at Bologna. Even with the underground station under Bologna Central (only four tracks, for stopping H trains and 2 for non stopping trains) Bologna will not be capable of handling the extra traffic.
------------------

the french model of HSL stations will be applied for the novara and reggio
Reggio emilia stations ( this last one on the milan-bologna HSL), which are smaller cities like avignon, valence and some other on french HSLs.

Reply
Reggio Emilia HS Station is not connected to the rest of the rail network.
It is a "gare des bettraves" (a beetroot station), a station in the middle of nowhere

after the completion of all new italian HSLs, it can be possible travelling from milano rogoredo ("gate" station of milan) to roma tiburtina ("gate" station of rome) in 2h30'.

Reply:
Milan Roagoredo is 14 Km south of Milan Central.
Roma Tiburtina is about at the same distance from Roma termini.

From Rogoredo to Milan Central it will take at least 20 minutes. Perhaps it should be remebered that most trains and connections will start and or terminate a Milan Central Station. or at Roma Termini.
Milan Central Station is the most important station in Italy.

It will be like terminating the TGV Transmanche (London St Pancras - Paris Gare du Nord) at Bromely South (in the Uk) and,in France, 16 km outside Gare du Nord. With the only difference that London and Paris have better and more public transport (train and underground) than either Milan or Rome, whose local rail, and metro network is still extremely underdeveloped.
A Milan-Rogoredo Rome- Tiburtina non-stop in 2h 30 minute implies to add another hour, or 1 and 1/2 hour if you arrive at Milan Central and have to go to Rome Termini

Hence this train Milan-Rogoredo - Rome tiburtina would add another hour or 90 minutes to the end points.
For instance those people who travel by day from Paris to Milan with the TGV will arrive at Milan Central and - if from Milan Central - they will have to change train to Rome Tiburtina to arrive to Rome Termini....it will be disastruous.

concerning the proposition of other HSLs, it would be wonderful, but actually there are no funds and, however, the population served by these new lines is not enough to be worth one's while.

Reply:
Really???

:?:?:?:?:?

the present record is 355km/h as you wrote before .

Reply
A record made in a newly built line with a train of reduced composition IS NOT THE MAXIMUM COMMERCIAL SPEED ESTABLISHED BY TRENITALIA FOR THE MILAN-BOLOGNA AV FAST SERVICE

FOR THE TIME BEING THE MAXIMUM COMMERCIAL SPEED FROM MILAN TO BOLOGNA AV FAST IS 250 KM/H.
PLEASE REFER TO TRENITALIA SCHEDULE AND OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS
INDEED ON THE MILAN - BOLOGNA HSL SOME ETR 500 FRECCIAROSSA AV FAST, HAVE A MAXIMUM speed of 200 km/h , due to poor maintenance of the ETR500 AV FRECCIAROSSA

Keeping repainting and rebranding the ETR500 is not a substitute for proper maintenance.

A simple trip on the new HS service will confirm you that the top speed achieved by some of the ETR 500 rebranded and repainting is a mere 254 km/h, with a slow down to 220 km a Reggio ad 230km at Modena.

Indeed some of these AV Fast arrive at Bologna Central station 15 -20 minutes late!!
On the TAV project, the travelling time on the Milan-Bologna HSL was supposed to be between 55 and 60 minutes. Only some ETR500 can make the journey in 65 minutes. Some other ETRs 500 make the journey in 80-85 minutes.
Very bad for a journey of 219 km, station to station.

Suffice to say that any modern locomotive, such as the Taurus, with 10-12 carriages having a top speed of 200km/h could make the Milan-Bologna journey on the new HSL in just 70 minutes.

It is true that Trenitalia (also nicknamed by many Italian users: trenitaglia = (traincutter) and Treniraglia (train-bray, train caterwaul) has a peculiar way of calculating the late runnings.

But this deserves a topic on its own

NTV (first alternative private railway company in italy) has already ordered 25 AGVs for 2011 when it will start the service. for trenitalia job order we have to wait yet...but AGV is not the favourite.

Reply:
NTV has bough a downgraded version of the AGV with a top speed of 300 km/h NTV had no choices since the Maximum speeds technically achievable on certain sections ot he new Italian HSl are between 220- and 300 km/h.
The maximum top commercial speed allowed is fixed to 250 km/h This has been known for over ten years. These data were also published on the Trenitalia web site.

Why you Italians , resident in Italy, insist in misinforming on international web sites about the catastrophic situation of the so called TAV. In 1990m trains were much faster, better and cheaper. You are still mentioning the Bridge on the Messina Straight and keep putting on the net various graphic representation of the said Bridge which will not be constructed for at least 50 years.

The project has been rejected after the first Berlusconi governement.
Lets not forget that the doubling of the Bologna-Verona was pre-planned during the construction of the first track (abou 100 years ago?).

The lay down of the second track has started almost 20 years ago. 112 km of track in the flattest plain of Italy not completed after almost 20 years? Less than haf a mile of track a year?

Youought to remember that in any other so called civilised western nation, scandal like this would have caused political upheaval . In your domestic web-sites you call these political malpractices "Biblical times"....

Also,on the Italian web sites you tell very different stories. And on the Italian web-sites you are very bitter of the state of affairs ot the rail transport in Italy

I do not know of any Italian resident in Italy who is happy about the HSL lines the TAV, etc.

Furthermore, the newly built miserable Italian HSL's have cost from six to ten times more per miles than the HSLs built in Spain, Germany, France, Japan., etc ., etc.

Also was it really necessary to build SIX interconnections between the 182 kms of HSL running between Milan and Bologna?

For what? To serve unbuilt stations, such the one at Reggio Emilia?.

Modena (37 km north of Bologna) has 2 interconnections. , Lavino 10 Kms north of Bologna has one interconnection...!!!!! Etc.

At best what has been done in Italy is an example of how NOT to built HSL. It was a mere exercise of squandering money at the expense of both the taxpayers and travelleres.

As an Italian resident abroad, I am ashamed of this squandering of money and loss of talents.
I am also ashamed of my felows Italians, resident in Italy who disseminate mis-information on international web-sites and international forum, perhaps to massage their frustrated egos.

Now when I have to come to Italy, which is quite often, I travel interantionally by plane ad domestically by bus or taxi, or domestic planes - all means of transportation which I detest.

I adore trains as long as they are not Trenitalia trains. Having to travel in Italy by public means has become a nightmare.Thirld wordl airports. not adeqautely interconnected with other mode of transportation. No decent refreshin facilities where you can seat and have a decent cupo of coffe ad a decent sandwich. Try a Stanstead to Bologna or Rimini or Forli and then once landed try to reach Ferrara or Padua from Rimini or Bologna by train. You will experience the ordeal

Or try Ferrara-Senigallia, or Ferrara Milan- Bergamo by Train with a leg of the journey on AV. That's is pure Hell.
Last but not least in Italy , even on the new HSLs you have not yet discovered high platforms. You still have to climb up to the carraiges.

Why don't you learn from Japan, China, etc?

After all the High platforms were invented over 150 years ago. When the British invented the train.

With the money waisted in 800 km of unfinished semi-fast lines you could have built 8000 km of superfast lines.

In th future I would expect from you more acurate information.

Sorry for the typos but I have been up all night.

serdar samanlı

December 22nd, 2008, 09:52 AM

Eurostar Italians also run on existing lines as I have seen Eurostar Italias in Venice and the there are no HSLs to Venice yet

serdar samanlı

December 22nd, 2008, 09:54 AM

GENIUS LOCI

December 22nd, 2008, 11:52 AM

Why you Italians , resident in Italy, insist in misinforming on international web sites about the catastrophic situation of the so called TAV. In 1990m trains were much faster, better and cheaper.You are still mentioning the Bridge on the Messina Straight and keep putting on the net various graphic representation of the said Bridge which will not be constructed for at least 50 years.

The project has been rejected after the first Berlusconi governement.
You're makin' misinformation now, as the Bridge is scheduled to be built

Slagathor

December 22nd, 2008, 11:57 AM

Scheduled to be built is meaningless, especially when there's an economic recession ravaging the planet. I'll believe it when they start pouring concrete.

Federicoft

December 22nd, 2008, 12:22 PM

The bridge won't be built anytime soon (thanks God).

At any rate, the TAV project is at a good stage, but it's still far from being completed. Moaning now about how long did it take, or about how small are the advantages it offers compared to old lines while all urban bypasses are still to be completed is pointless, just pointless. How many years were necessary for the TGV to reach Marseilles? Almost 30, last time I checked.

In four years will be possibile to travel from Milan to Naples on brand new trains in 3h 30min. Period.

wronny

December 22nd, 2008, 03:16 PM

Joseph1951, where do you live now?

dreaad

December 22nd, 2008, 04:32 PM

for example, in the HSL turin-novara (first part completed of HSL turin-milan) long about 85 km, after 15-20 km from the beginning of HSL, the train goes @ 300 km/h (not always).

Reply not true. The graphic shows that it reaches 299 km/h after 50 kms!

do you travel often on this line?? I did it about 5-6 times and I can say what I've written before.
you can't take only one example to prove this.

1 hour for 153 km = 153 km/h.
On the Ligne Est the TGV covers 176,6 kms from station to station (start ad stop) in about 36 minutes and the average COMMERCIAL SPEED in excess of 279 km/h!

ok, I can say you that the 85 km of HSL turin-novara (with acceleration and deceleration) are covered in 22-23 minutes: so the average speed is about 240 km/h. but, as I told you before, there is a slow interconnection yet.
and some times trains arrive in milano centrale 5 minutes early or more.
so we can say that trenitalia is quite conservative (for fear of delays) when organizing the timetable, as proved also with the ETR500 from milan to rome in 3h30' when the real time is just 3h15', if no problem occurs during the journey .and this is common for all italian railways. that is not a very good thing however.

Reply
Reggio Emilia HS Station is not connected to the rest of the rail network.
It is a "gare des bettraves" (a beetroot station), a station in the middle of nowhere

and french TGV stations are in the city centre in your opinion?? or they are quite outside??so, the situation is exactly the same.

NO . After Lavino it should have been possbile to continue with an avoiding line north of Bologna with a top speed of 220 km/h connecting to the Florence HSL at san Rufillo and also with a section to Ancona. This is called avoiding line, bypassing line, or similar (ceinture grande vitesse). The trains would have been able to call at Bologna Central and also for the non-stop Milan-Rome and Milan Ancona to avoid the crossing of Bologna Cntral Station.
Aso the excavation of underground station of Bologna is causing severe damages to the local buildings.

severail damages?? I don't believe. however, your suggest may be good, if there will be sufficient conditions and no problem with local authorities.I say this because the slowdown @ 240km/h near modena is due to the municipality which didn't want the railway track inside its territory: so it had to be built a curve around the border of the town :bash:

Suffice to say that any modern locomotive, such as the Taurus, with 10-12 carriages having a top speed of 200km/h could make the Milan-Bologna journey on the new HSL in just 70 minutes.

@ 200 km/h you cover the HSL in minimum 1h15'-1h20'.

The central station would have maintained its interoperablity for those trains calling at Bologna. Even with the underground station under Bologna Central (only four tracks, for stopping H trains and 2 for non stopping trains) Bologna will not be capable of handling the extra traffic.

this is false, because with the new station there will be not any problem of conflict with regional trains as actually happens and suburban service can be increased.

A Milan-Rogoredo Rome- Tiburtina non-stop in 2h 30 minute implies to add another hour, or 1 and 1/2 hour if you arrive at Milan Central and have to go to Rome Termini

what!?!?!?!? an another hour to reach the main stations?? do you think this really?? this is totally FALSE

this is a testimony from a forumer of FOL (http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22820&p=665824&hilit=milano+lambrate+rogoredo#p665824)

18.59: starting from milano centrale
19.03: transit at milano lambrate
19:06: transit at milano ROGOREDO

so adding the pause of stop at milano rogoredo, in 10-11' you go from milano centrale to rogoredo.
and from roma tiburtina to roma termini the trip time is 8' (regional trains taken as example).

so you must add 20 minutes to reach the central stations not 1h30'... what do you want to demonstrate?

FOR THE TIME BEING THE MAXIMUM COMMERCIAL SPEED FROM MILAN TO BOLOGNA AV FAST IS 250 KM/H.

FALSE. you can say that with present timetable ,it can be sufficient travelling @ 250 km/h without any delay, but the commercial speed is 300km/h.

INDEED ON THE MILAN - BOLOGNA HSL SOME ETR 500 FRECCIAROSSA AV FAST, HAVE A MAXIMUM speed of 200 km/h , due to poor maintenance of the ETR500 AV FRECCIAROSSA

this happens in special cases, NOT always. the normal speed is 300km/h excluding some parts of the track with slowdowns.
since you have mentioned the poor maintenance (with the new naples garage for maintenance of fast trains, these type of problems should not verify themselves like now), I can say you that DB has taken off from service ALL ICE-T trains since the 25th of october due to lack of security guarantees from siemens (do you remeber the tragedy of eschede when over 100 people were killed???).
that's not be comparable with problems that sometimes an ETR500 has.

A simple trip on the new HS service will confirm you that the top speed achieved by some of the ETR 500 rebranded and repainting is a mere 254 km/h, with a slow down to 220 km a Reggio ad 230km at Modena.

a simple trip is not sufficient. read some posts of FOL forumers and many of them can prove that the maximum speed is reached (not always however).

Only some ETR500 can make the journey in 65 minutes. Some other ETRs 500 make the journey in 80-85 minutes.

NO!! along the new HSL, the major part of ETR500 does the journey in 65', sometimes in 60'.and seldom with delays over 5-10 minutes.
as I told you, trenitalia wants a conservative time.

Also was it really necessary to build SIX interconnections between the 182 kms of HSL running between Milan and Bologna?

For what? To serve unbuilt stations, such the one at Reggio Emilia?.

Modena (37 km north of Bologna) has 2 interconnections. , Lavino 10 Kms north of Bologna has one interconnection...!!!!! Etc.

At best what has been done in Italy is an example of how NOT to built HSL. It was a mere exercise of squandering money at the expense of both the taxpayers and travelleres.

italian HSLs are built following the german model with lots of interconnections. they can be used in the future (NOT now) for maximum interoperabily with intercity or cargo trains.
actually they are quite useless and you are right, but in an optic of use for several decades at least, it has been a good thing building them now.

With the money waisted in 800 km of unfinished semi-fast lines you could have built 8000 km of superfast lines

uhm... starting from the 12 december 2009 we will not have semi-fast lines however.

Furthermore, the newly built miserable Italian HSL's have cost from six to ten times more per miles than the HSLs built in Spain, Germany, France, Japan., etc ., etc.

you are right, especially for compensation costs for all municipality crossed by new lines and lots of interoconnections. however, the bologna-florence HSL, considering the orography of the territory (93% into tunnels for 73 km,a worldwide record), doesn't cost much more than other HSLs.
this is not a good reason however to not building these new lines.

Or try Ferrara-Senigallia, or Ferrara Milan- Bergamo by Train with a leg of the journey on AV. That's is pure Hell.
Last but not least in Italy , even on the new HSLs you have not yet discovered high platforms. You still have to climb up to the carraiges.

cargo railway system is underdeveloped in italy unfortunately.
In th future I would expect from you more acurate information.

also the same from you.

hoosier

December 23rd, 2008, 06:44 PM

Time for an updated map (dec. 2008)

deep blue indicates operative HS stretches

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/immagini/rfi/avac2008piccola.png

Nice map. Shouldn't there be a connection from Bologna to Venice on TAV?

Also, are there plans to connect TAV to TGV in France?

Federicoft

December 23rd, 2008, 06:49 PM

^^
Yes, there is a planned HS line between France and Italy whose construction works should begin soon.
http://www.ltf-sas.com/index2.php?lg_visite=en

TGV trains already run on Italian lines and vice-versa though.

hoosier

December 23rd, 2008, 06:50 PM

dreaad

December 23rd, 2008, 07:05 PM

to connect to the TGV network in france (it's already connected via a slow line, in fact there are 3 couples of TGV between milan/turin and paris), it is necessary to build the high capacity (not speed) turin-lyon line to improve the cargo service. it's foreseen the construction of a 52 km tunnel long across the alps. maximum speed around 200-220 km/h. estimated cost of the entire line about 13 billion €, but there are still many conflicts with local people in the susa valley near turin, where the line crosses the alps.
they don't want for any reason the new line,especially for environment damage and very high costs which don't justify the project.
however,for the only high speed passenger service it's not worthwhile.

between bologna to venice it's not foreseen any HSL, but between verona and bologna the line is being upgraded @ 200 km/h.

it's still in project the HSL between treviglio (near milan) and padua (max speed 250 km/h).

hoosier

December 23rd, 2008, 07:10 PM

I suggested a Bologna-Venice line so that Venice and Rome would have a direct connection to one an other.

dreaad

December 23rd, 2008, 07:10 PM

but there aren't enough money :D:D:D

sämelihülz

December 23rd, 2008, 07:31 PM

Train breakdown angers Swiss

The Cisalpino train jointly run by Switzerland and Italy is so unreliable that the Swiss want to take over responsibility for its maintenance.

One of the company's tilting trains broke down in the Lötschberg tunnel in southern Switzerland on Monday, and 200 passengers had to be transferred to a substitute. They suffered a delay of about two hours.

Cisalpino is a joint venture of the Swiss and Italian state railway companies.

Reacting to the latest breakdown, Swiss Federal Railways said on Tuesday that it does not think the Italian side is sufficiently fulfilling its obligations in maintaining the trains.

However, bringing the maintenance to Switzerland could pose contractual problems.

The Swiss have already taken measures to cope with the repeated problems posed by the Cisalpino, frequently running conventional rolling stock on the line instead. But Swiss Federal Railways does not have enough trains to dispense with the tilting trains altogether.

The Cisalpino train has run into problems ever since coming into service 12 years ago. Its fittings are often unreliable, and it frequently runs late.

A new, improved, generation of tilting trains was originally due to be delivered in May 2007; they are now scheduled to come into service in June 2009.

Flattering :lol:

joseph1951

December 23rd, 2008, 08:40 PM

Joseph1951, where do you live now?

For the las 28 years resident in the UK with long stays in the US of A

joseph1951

December 23rd, 2008, 08:41 PM

Nice map. Shouldn't there be a connection from Bologna to Venice on TAV?

Also, are there plans to connect TAV to TGV in France?

NO

Coccodrillo

December 24th, 2008, 11:15 AM

About Cisalpino trains: yesterday I arrived at home 2 hours late because the Milano-Zürich trains of 13.10 and 15.10 (or at least the second one) broke down. So the passengers of both trains boarded the 16.10 train: there were 600 people in a train with 450 seats, and even if I had a ticked with a reserved seat it was impossible to board the train: passengers were everyehere, even near the doors and the toilets.

Cisalpino personel asked me to wait for the 17.10 train, but i leaved Milano Centrale 25 minutes late. The 17.35 train also had 35 minutes of delay, the 19.10 (Firenze-Bologna-Milano-Zürich) was 3 hours late because an earthquake blocked the line near Bologna, finally only the 20.10 train leaved Milano Centrale on time.

Reply
Reggio Emilia HS Station is not connected to the rest of the rail network.
It is a "gare des bettraves" (a beetroot station), a station in the middle of nowhere

No, it will/should be above a perpendicular regional railway.

cristof

December 24th, 2008, 11:28 AM

why Eurostar as the the trains which reach London? the Italian TAV cannot put another name on it? can somebody explain me plz?

GENIUS LOCI

December 24th, 2008, 11:35 AM

The name Eurostar, if I'm not wrong, is used for ETR 500 before Channel tunnel construction was finished

serdar samanlı

December 24th, 2008, 11:39 AM

The name Eurostar, if I'm not wrong, is used for ETR 500 before Channel tunnel construction was finished

You mean the name "Eurostar" was first given to Italian HSTs than Channel Tunnel trains?

GENIUS LOCI

December 24th, 2008, 11:46 AM

I'm not sure... anyway it is used since many years in Italy

sämelihülz

December 24th, 2008, 07:43 PM

It would be cool to make a train Line from Milano, accross the Swiss alps, Zürich-Basel, then France, Strasbourg-Paris, and then to London without changing the train. A sort of High Speed Train through 4 countries.

What do you think about this idea?

joseph1951

December 24th, 2008, 09:44 PM

why Eurostar as the the trains which reach London? the Italian TAV cannot put another name on it? can somebody explain me plz?

Actually the "Eurostar" name was branded by Fiat Ferroviaria. The the name was leased as a branded name to the anglofrench TGV Transmanche, which is a quadri-voltage extremely long and narrower version of a TGV.

So the anglo-french Eurostar has nothing to do with the Eurostar name and the train used in Italy.
Later on, after the name "Eurostar" was leased to the anglo-british consortium, the Italians adopted the branded name "Eurostar Italia".

Although the anglo-fench Eurostar (TGV transmanche) is a TGV derivative is less poweful than a conventional TGV.
However, it is far more perfomant thant the ETR500 Eurostar Italia now "ETR500 Frecciarossa AV fast".

joseph1951

December 24th, 2008, 09:54 PM

You're makin' misinformation now, as the Bridge is scheduled to be built

The bridge is in the final planning stage . The initial works should begin in 2010 and the bridge should be opened in 2016.

This assuming that the government first approve the plan and then foot the bill.

Also, given the "biblical times" (this is a common Italian expression) to carry out public work, I have serious doubt that the Bridge will be either built and then operational within the (very theorethical) time-scale quoted by the financial daily "Il Sole 24 ore" .

dreaad

December 24th, 2008, 09:59 PM

joseph1951

December 24th, 2008, 10:38 PM

eurostar is more performant in terms of acceleration (little more), but not in maximum speed reached during testing (355 vs 334).

eurostar is more powerful in terms of pure power than a standard TGV (12,2 MW vs 8,8 MW) but since it's have 18 carriages vs 8 carriages the power/weight ratio is more favourable for standard TGV (16KW/ton vs 23 kW/ton)

Which eurostar are we talking here? Look on wikipedia in English, French, Italian etc.
The TGV TMST "Eurostar three capitals" has 12,200 kw output and weigh about 790 tons. (2 locos + 18 carriages)
The regional Eurostar TGV TMST weigh about 590 tons and has 12,200 Kw output (2 locos + 14 carriages)

The TGVs of second, third, fourth generations have an output of 8,800 kw and weight about 430-477 ton (depending on the type of TGV).
This includes the TGV Duplex.
The TGV Pos is slighly more powerful than the other TGVs.
The Korean TGV is the least poweful of the TGV family . It carries about 1,350 passenger. It accelerates from 0 to 300 km/h in 6 minutes. Which for the French TGV is a slow accleration.
Susbesenquty the Korean have developed heir own train capable of 350 km/h,which is clearly a derivative of the Fench TGV they bought.
The 350 km/h korean TGV derivative has been sold to Turkey. The ETR500 has been sold only to Italy.
Why don't you ask yourself why the ETR500 has been sold only to the Italian railways?

The Italian Eurostar reached the 355 km/h passing from 199km/h to 355 km/h in 10 minutes and 44 second.
On the TGV run Calais -Marseille (1067 kms in 3 hours 29 mins, 29 seconds) speeds of -360-366 Km/h were reached . Speeds above 320 and 360 were maintained for long time.

The Italian ETR500 has an output of 8,800 kw and weight 660 tons. With 2 loco + 12 carriage formation it can only exceeds 300-305 km/h on flat land and for very short periods.

On 3000 volt DC and above 200 km/h, with only one loco active, it develops only 4,400 kw.

The video on the record speed obtained with one of the two testing ETR500 , namely the ETR500Y, which is a train composed of eight carriages and 2 locos, has ben posted in this section of skyscraper railways.
You ought o look at it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV

joseph1951

December 24th, 2008, 10:59 PM

joseph1951

December 24th, 2008, 11:04 PM

[QUOTE=joseph1951;29843572]

this link should work . It is the speed diagram of the ETR500 on reduced formation with 8 carraiges from Turin AV, towards (Novara) Milan.

It is clear that the 300km/h mark is barely touched, after 50 km of slow acceleration on the HSL. Now the Tuirn Novara HSL is on the flat land of the Po valley. The same is true of the Milan-Bologna HSL line

On the Milan- Bologna line the Etr500 use to have 12 carriages , so it is feasible to assume that these heavier trains will have even a slower acceleration, on the very flat Milan- Bologna HSL .

But probably somebody will tell me that this is because of the type of sandy soil on the Milan HSL section is different to that of Turin HSL section.....

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5378/torinonovarasvtv1.png

Bologna junction - Underground station
before joining the HSL, the non stopping train will slow down in tunnel at 160km/ then it will transit at a furher reduced speed on the undeground platform 2 or 3, then it will negotiate a tight curve with a radius of 475m, then it will climb up with an incline of 1.8 %, then it will resurface, then it will be connceted to the HSL to Florence by a crossover negotiable at a speed of 100 km.

Well ,... on the surface track 1 and 3 the transit is possible at 60-80 km/h and, immediately outside the railways station, towards Florence, the old line allows a top speed of 125 -km/145 km/h

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/rfi/The%20Bologna%20Junction.pdf

Florence Belfiore Station - undergound crossing

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/rfi/Florence%20urban%20junction.pdf

after slowing down to 80km/h at Belfiore Station , where there are two curves, one of which is
305m radius, the train will continue to Campo di Marte at 110/km , then it will cross Campo di Marte Station, and continue at low speed for another 4 km to Rovezzano, where the historic DD begins.

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/rfi/Florence%20urban%20junction.pdf

dreaad

December 24th, 2008, 11:36 PM

Who cares about the story of Turin and that the world "comes to Turin"?
The videdo you posted is also dubbed in American.. What next? Are we gong to see videos of the Roman Empire at its Height to justify the present mediocre trains?...

This is the ETR500 acceleration diagram which I posted on page 4 of this topic...

=========================================================
Here is the link containing the acceleration diagram of the reduced formation for the ETR500 (2 locos + 8 carriages) used on the Turin-Milan High Speed line.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5...ovarasvtv1.png

On The Milan-Bologna Line the 355 Km/h were achieved with the ETR500Y, which is capable of running under 3kv d.c. / 25Kv a.c., but it is a test train of a reduced formation of 2 locos + 3 carriages. This is the standard formation of the ETR500Y test train.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOOOOO!!!
ETR500 Y1 which did the record @ 355 km/h has 8 carriages!!!
http://www.railwaygazette.com/ur_single/article/2008/12/9128/getting_ertms_into_service_quicker.html

http://www.trenomania.org/fotogallery/thumbnails.php?album=976

ScBYOvBb9Ug

only the Y2 test train has 3 carriages.
you mix it up with the special composition (3 carriages) of the TGV used for record of april 2007 (574.8 km/h).

there are other 3 ETR500 which have 8 carriages and are used on the turin-milan HSL. all the others 57 have 12 carriages.

you don't know how things are exactly.

p.s.: who cares about turin?!?!? who cares about your ignorance and stupidity??

dreaad

December 24th, 2008, 11:49 PM

Which eurostar are we talking here? Look on wikipedia in English, French, Italian etc.
The TGV TMST "Eurostar three capitals" has 12,200 kw output and weigh about 790 tons. (2 locos + 18 carriages)
The regional Eurostar TGV TMST weigh about 590 tons and has 12,200 Kw output (2 locos + 14 carriages)

The TGV of second, third, fourth generations have an output of 8,800 kw and weight about 430-477 ton (depending on th type of TGV).
This includes the TGV Duplex.
The TGV Pos is slighly more powerful than the other TGV.
The Korean TGV is the less poweful of the TGV family . It carries about 1,350 passenger. It accelerates from 0 to 300 km/h in 6 minutes. Which for the French TGV is almost unheard of.
Susbesenquely the Korean have develope their own train capable of 350 km/h which is clearly a derivative of the Fenche TGV they bought.
The 350 km/h Korena TGV derivative has been sold to Turkey. The ETR500 has been sold only to Italy.
Why don't you aske yourself why the ETR500 is sold only to the Italian railways?

The Italian Eurostar Reached the 355 km passing from 199km/h to 355 in 10 minutes and 44 second.
The TGV run Calais -Marselle (1067) kms in 3 hours 29 min 29 seconds Speed of 366 Km were reached . Speed above 320 and 360 were maintained for long time.

The Italian ETR500 has an output of 8,800 kw and weight 660 tons. On 2 loco + 12 carriages can only touch 300-303 km on flat land and for very short periods.

On 3000 volt Dc with only one loco activer can develop only 4,400 kw.

The video on the record sped obtained with one of the two testing ETR500 , coposed of three carriages and 2 locos is on this section of skyscraper railways.
You ought o look at it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV

I referred to the eurostar used for international service. I know all the the technical data about TGVs and ETR500.
however the weight of an ETR500 with 12 carriages is 616 tons (68 tons for each loco plus 40 tons for each carriage).
that is to be precise.

I said before that ETR500 is slower than other trains, but with better comfort by comparison with ICE3 and newer TGV (duplex, reseau etc...). and not only italian people say that.

if you are convinced that italian HSLs are very bad... you don't understand anything.

in my behalf, this conversation with a so arrogant person ends now.

joseph1951

December 24th, 2008, 11:53 PM

[QUOTE=joseph1951;29843698][QUOTE=joseph1951;29843572]

this link is for th eofficial web site of Trenitalia AV

http://www.ferroviedellostato.it/cms-file/allegati/_shared/Alta_Velocita.pdf

According to the above document in pdf the new 55 Trenitalia trainsets homologated for 350km/h will be bought by 2011.

Perhaps is worth remembering that, according to the UIC rules, to homologate a given train speed it is necessary to exceed the homologation speed by a minimum of 10%.
Therefore, a train which has an homologated speed of 350 km/h must reach at the very least, and repeatedly, 385 km/h.

That's why the Spanish Velaro has an homologatd speed (i.e.: maximum speed) of 350km/h and, prior the homologation of that speed has reached 403 km/h).

The old French TGV Sud Est , which originally had a top speed of 270 km/h reached 380km/h.

The 355 km/h reached by the Italian ETR500 on the newly opened HLS Milan Bologna (after 10 min and 44 seconds to accelerate from 199km/h to 355 km/h could hardly qualify the ETR500 for a top commercial speed of 320 km/h.

Also
1- the top speed must be reached in shortish time. The Velaro accelerates from 0 km/h to 350 km/h in 380 seconds, or 6 minutes and 20 seconds.
The top speed must be sustained.

The documents from Trenitalia AV gives also th HSL timetable for 2009.
It would appear that timetable contains contradictions.
Namely,
Milan_Rome non-stop (from Milano -Centrale to Roma Termini) = 3hrs for about 570-579 km =
From Milan -Rogoredo to Rome Tiburtina: 2h 45 minutes
From Milan - Naples 5hrs 35 minutes and limited to a few HSL ETR 500
Rome Naples HSL in 1 hour 10 minutes and also 1 hour and 21 minutes= averaging about 180/km/h or 151km/h...
Frecciaorossa AV
From Milan to Florence 1 hr 45 minutes

Plase note that on the historical lines
a) Milan -Bologna = 219 km
b) Bologna - Florence 97 km
Total distance Milan -Florence on the historical lines 316 km
316 km : 105 minutes = Avergae speed of 180.57 km/hour

The new Bologna Florece HSL should be shorter that the historical line.

http://www.ferroviedellostato.it/cms-file/allegati/_shared/Alta_Velocita.pdf

joseph1951

December 25th, 2008, 01:45 AM

NOOOOO!!!
ETR500 Y1 which did the record @ 355 km/h has 8 carriages!!!
http://www.railwaygazette.com/ur_single/article/2008/12/9128/getting_ertms_into_service_quicker.html

http://www.trenomania.org/fotogallery/thumbnails.php?album=976

ScBYOvBb9Ug

only the Y2 test train has 3 carriages.
you mix it up with the special composition (3 carriages) of the TGV used for record of april 2007 (574.8 km/h).

there are other 3 ETR500 which have 8 carriages and are used on the turin-milan HSL. all the others 57 have 12 carriages.

you don't know how things are exactly.

p.s.: who cares about turin?!?!? who cares about your ignorance and stupidity??

The video talks about the history of Italy in a pompous manner an it is dubbed in American.

It is propaganda at its worst, and I find it offensive to all intelligent italians and foreigners. The Americans know about the Italian Renaissance.

Some American are extemely well educated (this also applies to many, many other foreigners).

In this forum we talk about trains not Renaissance, with particuarly emphasis on Turin as "caput mundi" , on everything.

Not even Mussolini has such bad a taste.
With regards to my ignorance , my late wife was American and she taught English and American Literature and Cambridge (UK, not Mass, USA) .
When I was young I got a Master at Yale...but I am Italian, from Ferrara.
And now I am extremely ill and crippled..(and I should be in bed...)

That's why, perhaps, I bother passing the time with people like yourself.
There was a time when Italy was creative. But, in my opinion, Italy, in the last 40 years. has increasingly become a second rate czarist-borbonic-retrograde nation.

Static and rigid.

Expanded egos is all its left......

No, I do not mix up the ETR series Y, which are used for testing lines, with the TGV which holds the world speed record of about 574,8 km/h, and which was an experiment made not only to test the new AGV motors, but also to test the techincal limits of the conventional rail lines, (and also to sell trains).

Up to 30 years ago the rail engineers did not even know what was he limit of contact between rail and wheel..

(Please refer to the late professor Giovanni Klaus Koenig's: Oltre il Pendolino, Valerio Levi Editore, Roma 1986)

The TGV holder of the world speed record was an experimental train to push to the limits the technical envelope rail + train.

I was told, and I also read that the ETR500 series Y had 3 carriages . Even if the ETR500 Y had 8 carriages it is clear that it accelerates very slowly.

At Melegnano (20km south of Milan Grand Central Station) it travels at 199km/h.
From 199km/h to 330 km/h it takes about 5 minutes and 45 seconds.
This hardly qualifies it for a 300km/h continuous commercial speed. (max commercial sustained speed +10%).

Italy has many medium size towns every 50-80 kms. Therefore acceleration is an important factor.

The ETR500 was originally planned for a max commercial speed of 250-275km/h.

It is a traditional heavy train (like the ICE1). Given the original plan they fixed it quite well. But, from the perfomance point of view, it cannot compete for accelaration and top speed with other HS trains of diferent concept.

Also, it is more than rumored that, during the record of the fampus 355km/h there were problems with the catenary and the pantograph.

To be fair, the experimental TGV holder of the world record of 574,8 km has caused some damages to the rails. But it was travelling at a speed of over 224 km/h higher that the ETR500 Y2..
Severe damages to the tracks and and catenary occurred even when, in the mid 1950, the French pushed a train at sped of over 330 km/h.. That experiment was also carried out to test the limits of the techonology available at the time......

The experimental TGV holder of the world speed record has demonstrated that:

a) The new highly efficient motors (planned for the AGV) were working, and also that:

b) with improvement in planning, design, construction and twiking it is possible to build trains which can run in excess of 360km/h consuming 15-20% less than a conventional TGV running at 300km/h.

The new Talgo AVRIL will have a commecial speed of 380km/h and will weigh less than 300 tons.

Perhaps if to the ETR500 Y2 + 8 carriages they had put skirts to cover the frontal bogies of the two locos, they would have reduced the air drag by 10%, or - if you prefer - the train would have had at its disposal 10% more energy at a very high speed.

It is well known that, with a train like the TGV to pass from 300km/h to 360 it requires a doubling of the amount of energy fro an increase of 20% in speed.

Thus the need of pushing the technology to find acceptable solutions.

To cover the frontal bogies of the two locos of the ETR500 requires 4 pieces of metal. At Trenitalia this is known. Since they have carried such type of experiment.

Nevertheless, they should have asked Ferrari..

It is well known that at speed above 300Km/h the air drag becomes the main problem.

Given 300-500km free line, the ETR500 Y2 wold have even exceeded the 355km record.

The 355 km/hour were reached at about 100-106 km from Milan Central station. Then, it was time to apply the breaks.....

Somebody , on this forum, has mentioned FOL, a good Italian railways forum. On FOL (hte old and the new Fol forums) there is all the story of the 355km/h record.

Furthermore, it seems that the ETR500 Frecciarossa AV train fleet will have its bogies replaced by the TGV bogies produced by Alstom..

It is reported in FOL as well.

The Spanish have TGC, Simens Velaros. Talgo, Italian tilting and non tilting trains. The Talgos. They have HST capable of 350 km/h andl also regional feeder HST capable of 330 km/h (Talgo 350) and of 250km/h.

Quitetly quitely they have built almost 2000 km of HSL and in a few years they plan to have 7000 km of HSL of standard gauge. And Spain is very mountainous. The averga heigh is 700 metres above sea level..

The Chinese have bought all the western and japanese technology (including the maglevs) . They even maneged to build night trains capable of 250km/h..

The Koreans bought the TGV and then built their own super TGV capable of 350 km/h and they exported it (even to Turkey)

Nototmention the Japanese. Teh Htachi trains are even sold to UK.. And they will build a maglev line of a 580 km/h top speed.
Learning means aso to compare ones project with the projects of other nations.
What is the point of endlessy eluogize ones miracle train named ETR500 Freciarossa AV, and desecrate what other nations and engineers have achieved. It is only with an honest compararison of alocal product (the ETr500) with what other technicians and nations have come up with that progress can be achieved. The obstinate refusal to honestly analyse and, when appropriate recognised that others have come up with better solutions is detrimental and counterproductive.

You have mentioned the http://www.railwaygazette.com, but have you had a look in the said website at the world record commercial speeds?

Merry Christmas

joseph1951

December 25th, 2008, 02:38 AM

dreaad

December 25th, 2008, 02:50 AM

joseph1951

December 25th, 2008, 02:56 AM

eurostar is more performant in terms of acceleration (little more), but not in maximum speed reached during testing (355 vs 334).

eurostar is more powerful in terms of pure power than a standard TGV (12,2 MW vs 8,8 MW) but since it's have 18 carriages vs 8 carriages the power/weight ratio is more favourable for standard TGV (16KW/ton vs 23 kW/ton)

In fact you are right. The TGV Eurostar TMST with a power ratio of about 16kW/ton cannot compete with the TGV Atlantique, Reseau or Duplex which have about 22-23 kW/ton.
This is especially true in the very crowded Ligne Paris-Lyon which, at time have one train every 4-5 minutes in each direction.
Given the fact that the LGV Paris-Lyon has a section with an incline of 3.1% (or 31 per thousands (as it is calculated in Italy) in case of slightly late running of TGV Eurostar Three Capitals, the train cannot make up time.

However, the TGV Three capitals manages to cover the 112 km from London St Pancras to the Portalof the Channel tunnel in about 30-35 minutes, in spite of the fact that this line has three constraints:

1- Exit in tunnel for St Pancras. In the tunnel the top speed is 230 km/h
2- Slow down at Ashford (flyover) at 240 km/h and
3- slow down to 160 km/h before entering in the Channel tunnel.

For the same reason the ETR500 cannot go to Paris. The Macon-Dijon part of the line (about 1/3 of the Paris Lyon) is too hilly. The ETR500 won't keep up with the TGVs.

The same is also true for the German new line, which has an incline of 4% (40 per thousand) and, among the ICE fleet, this line is only used by the ICE3 when it does not break down.

dreaad

December 25th, 2008, 03:19 AM

last clarifications

The old French TGV Sud Est , which originally had a top speed of 270 km/h reached 380km/h.

that TGV was NOT standard: it had bigger wheels and tension was increased to 29kV.
ALL ITALIAN RECORDS WITH ETR500 ARE DONE IN STANDARD CONDITIONS (both for the trainset and the tension)

the only TGV record in which the trainset was standard was the long test run between calais and marseille in june 2001.

The Italian ETR500 has an output of 8,800 kw and weight 660 tons. On 2 loco + 12 carriages can only touch 300-303 km on flat land and for very short periods.

yes, but on flat land a 12 carriages-ETR500 can run @ 300km/h for long periods, not short.

the same with older TGVs on the HSL paris-lyon over the hills, where they can run no more than 270 km/h.

joseph1951

December 25th, 2008, 04:21 AM

but do you have some difficulties understanding what I've written??
maybe you are not so intelligent as you say (if you have really got a master at yale, it's even worse).

I said perhaps that ETR500 is the best train all over the world??
NO!
you're annoying me with your monotone posts talking about how fast are TGVs.
I already know it and I already admit their superiority concerning perfomance in comparison to high speed italian trains.

you mentioned that TGV concept is used in many countries.
but do you know that the tilting train concept (a purely italian invention) is used in much more countries?
so italian railway engineering is not so bad.

The tilting train (ETR401) was one of the best train built n Italy in the last 40 years.
First around the early '70, they bui ltonly one prototype, and this prototype was in service three times a week on Ancona-Roma.

The politicians snobbed it . Fs did the same.
Then in 1985 - circa - with the DD half built, they discovered that they had no train capable of 250km/h running.

Therefore, they ordered Fiat ferroviaria to built a longer version of the ETR401.
15 or so years had elapsed after the original ERT401 had been built, and Fiat Ferroviaria was given very little time to build the ETR450.

So it was not posibile to upgrade the new tilting train (the pendolone ETR450) with new engines and electrical equipment, choopers , etc (elettronica di potenza).
Nevertheless, the ETR450 was a superb train.

In Italy it was never used at its full capacity . For the italian orography and its rail network it was a far better choice than the ETR500.

Once the DD was completed, in case of late running, several ETR450 managed to do Rome-Florence at a steady 260km/h with a journey time Rome-Florence from point to point of 1h 10 minutes, 1h 15 min

Milan-Bologna 1h 23 - 1h 26 min minutes . The ETR500 on the same line: 1h 43 minutes..

The Etr 460 had teething problems. Also the pleasant, but square Giugiaro nose caused too much air drag....which prevented it to reach 275 km/h as emergency max speed.

The Fiat tiltings were sold to half of world: from Finland to China.

Since Fiat had no support neither from the Italian governement nor from FS it had no chice but to sell the tilting to Alstom.

Once you sell a patent, the patent is not yours anymore. Once sold the Pendolino became French: an Alstom train. End of story.
Now they've got the full range. Italy has nothing.

Alstom was not doing well before the construction of the first French High Speed Line, but it had the support both of the French government and of the SNCF.

Since when SNCF has bought foreign trains?

Now Alstom is a world player, and the Italian Railways industry is almost inexistent.
Political myopia and sutpidity....... Please don't blame me for this.

For the record, Fiat had also planned a new and faster version of the Tilting. It was very light. Also it had had emergency air-brakes, lke the new Japanese Shinkansen 360, and the top commercial speed was to be of 320 km/h.

The Pedolino Avril (nothing to do with the future 380km/h Talgo Avril) remained just an idea

Initially, the distance of the non-stop Bologna-Padua (123 km) was covered in 1h 3 minutes. Now with the ETR 500 (lately EScity) it takes 1h 15 minutes.
At least this was true during last Summer.

================================

You might enjoy two Italian railways books , if you can still find them.
They might be out of print.

1- The already mentioned Giovanni Klaus Koenig : Oltre il Pendolino. Valerio Levi Editore , Roma, 1986

2- Werner Hardmeier - Ascanio Schneider: Direttissima Bolgna-Firenze-Roma, Edizioni Locodivision, pubblicato da Orell Fuessli Verlag Zuerich und Wiesbaden ,1989
and for the Italian Edition , Edizioni Locodivision , Via Cassino 41, Torino, 1990
==========================================================
Koening does not only talk about the Pendolino but his book is a real Italian Railway Encyclopaedia.
They are both superb books.

==========================================================
I am not against the ETR500. It is a 250km conventional heavy train which has been greatly improved with the second series. But it has its conceptual limitations.
In y oinion there is a need of long distance light trains with extremely fast accelerations ad top speeds of 320km/h or more. There is also a need of tilting and not tilting HSL trains (Regional trains of 5-6 carriages) to feed the long diostances HST . For instance 3- to 6 cariages HSL regional feeding trains with a power under 3000 volt of 1500kW
With permanent magnetic induction motors , such as those of the AGV. This should not be a great problem. A six carriages regional train weighing 240 tons and capable of developing 6000kW on the Venice-Mestre, which is electrified as the DD on 3000 volt dc, Or a similar train on the DD..or between Milan and Venice , and capble of developing more power on the 25kW ac..

There is also the need of dual voltage locomotives capable of developing 6000 kW on 3000 volt dc and more under 25kW ac. There is also urgent need for regional double decker trains, capable of 200km/h FOR COMMUTERS AND ALSO for day and Night Intercities. 200km/h commuters trains, and 200-230km/h day IC and 200-230 Night IC trains are quite common in many European Countries, from France, to Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc.

Why spending pharaonic sums of money for building an hypothetical Bridge on the Straight of Messina, while you don't even have the rolling stock to use on the new and old lines?

You are still using the E444 which were build almost 40years ago.
Never heard of Taurus Locos, Eurosprints, etc.?

Never mind the High density double decker trains (TAF) with a top speed of 140 km/h........

Last but not least: the adriatica line is almost entirely doubled . It could be capable of 200km/h running but, in the doubled or reconstructed sections, the top speed is limited to 150 km/h because the Bacc signalling system has not been installed.......... And yet Bologna-Bari is 650 km long ,and Bologna-Foggia 799 km long (if I remember correctly..) an over +30% increase in speed could make a big difference..

dreaad

December 25th, 2008, 11:06 AM

but in your opinion don't I know all the things that you've mentioned??

I know ALL about it. I know the current limits of italian railway. I know that it needs much improvements in management and new trainsets. I know well that italian railway industry is small now.

what is your contribution in this topic?? saying only that italian railway is very bad and we're retrogade. ok, this is true in part, but it's not very useful.
why don't you mention for example that italian engineers of Ansaldo Breda were the first to put in operation the ERTMS level 2 (European Rail Traffic Management System) and all oher engineers from france, germany and so on came here to learn how to succeed?
in spain, engineers tried to use it on the HSL madrid-lleida, but since they didn't succeed they used the old ASFA system with limited speed of 200 km/h.
and now they have upgraded to ETRMS level 1 on the HSL madrid-barcelona and speed is limited to 300 km/h (level 2 is scheduled in short terms however), instead of 350 km/h as previously forecast, and it will remain so as stated the minister of public works, Magdalena Álvarez.

Concerning HSL, the long run service has just started and next year it will be almost completed (except urban nodes), even if with several years of delay.
but it's important that finally the service has started and in these first days things are going well (concerning delays).

concerning the adriatica, when the delivery of the 12 tilting ETR600 to trenitalia (during 2009) will be completed, there will be a fast service between turin/milan and apulia, using the HSL until bologna. and more fast links ,using both historical and high speed lines, can be put in service.

joseph1951

December 25th, 2008, 06:05 PM

last clarifications

that TGV was NOT standard: it had bigger wheels and tension was increased to 29kV.
ALL ITALIAN RECORDS WITH ETR500 ARE DONE IN STANDARD CONDITIONS (both for the trainset and the tension)

the only TGV record in which the trainset was standard was the long test run between calais and marseille in june 2001.

yes, but on flat land a 12 carriages-ETR500 can run @ 300km/h for long periods, not short.

the same with older TGVs on the HSL paris-lyon over the hills, where they can run no more than 270 km/h.

---------------------------------------------------------------
1- The first TGV trainset which set the world train speed on the Paris-Lyon was not the one which set the world rail speed of 574,8 km/h .

The latter was of reduced formation (2 locos + 3 carriages) overpowered and, on the carriages, they had mounted the new motors to be used on the AGV.
The tension of the catenary had to be incresed by 50%. The electrical supply was raised to 31 kW ac (according to the French), from the standard 25kW ac.
The pantograph on the loco at the back was modified to take into account the more rigid catenary. The patograph at the front of the train was removed. The rail section in which the speed 150V was to be reached, or exceeded was also modified.

They had to test both the effectiveness of the concept of the train at its maximum technical envelope.
The aerodynamic of the set was also modified.

After the run at 574,8 damages to the track were detected.

The protype TGV which hold the world record speed on rail of 574,8 was a mere prototype.

It cannot be compared with a standard TGV. Incidentally the TGV POS Duplex run daily at 320 km/h and runs at 360km/h occurs freqently on the TGV Est with the TGV Duplex.

When running late the TGV runs also at 330 km/h between Lyon and Marseille, on daily basis.
Many runs to 500 km/h carried out on the last two years have shown that at those speeds the TGV is safe.

2- For the Calais-Marseille non stop run the conventional TGV used had its electronic configuration modified to allow to draw 8,800 kw X 2 = 17,600 kw for about 50 minutes. This gives it a faster acceleration and it can reach and sustain 360km/h for long period of time.

To tweak trains, catenary, engines , rails for experimental purposes is nothing new.

It was also done in 1939 in Italy with the ETR200 on the record run Florence -Milan .
On the ETR200 the nominal electric power of the catenary was raised from 3,000 volts to 4,000 volts. The copper of the catenary was replaced with a better quality copper.

Several tracks on curves were welded (famous is the welding of the curve of Modena).

An experimental run made with an experimental train is just an experiment ,and at best, it serves to test the conceptual limits.

Suffce to say that the French reached about 331km/h with a test train in the mid '40 but they then run trains at max speed of 160.

They have reached an official world record of 574,8 km/h but they run trains of maximum commercial speed of 320km/h . SNCF never wanted the AGV (formerly called TGV NG) which is capable of sustained speed of 360km/h.

The AGV has been imposed to SNCF by political and industrial forces. The SNCF policy focus of mass tranportation of passengers at 300-320 km/h.

That is why SNCF likes the TGV Duplex which often runs in double formation.

When you can run tweaked experimental tains at 574,8 km/h.........

When you can run over 176 km of track, in about 36 minutes at an average speed in excess of 271 km/h......... (consider tha the new HSL Milan- Bologna has 182 of HS tracks)..................

When you can run 1067 kms on 3 hours 29 minutes and 29 seconds,........

When you can run 12 -15 trains per hour per track, like in the Paris-Lyon, then you will start to be almost at par with Franace...........

On the Raways gazzete I posted the lines of the fastes railways scheduled runs in the world.

Italy manages a mere 170 km/h with the fastes train on the DD.
France over 271/km/h.

Why don't you look at the link posted? .Since you know everything...