[QUOTE=Portobello Red;17808269]Jamie Carragher's Cafe Sports England Bar on Stanley Street was the venue for Liverpool's annual fancy dress Christmas party, delayed because of Christmas fixture congestion.


Rafa ?

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/2852/alloallotg5.jpg

or this one ?

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/4958/maxpaddy1024ti0.jpg

you can't beat Moyes :cheers:


http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollum%20maquette.jpg

Moyes at this years derby




http://photos7.flickr.com/7075034_ee4b479d54_m.jpg

a joyous Moyes realises he can get 4 cans of tesco's value bitter for £1

I wondered how long it would take to get the Moe and Golum pictures up.

theres a whole raft of lookalikes posted on bluekipper but I suppose most reds wouldnt go on there.

The one I like is Arteta and Captain Scarlet

Anyway as this a reds thread I do wonder about them letting pictures be taken at private party in fancy dress - they are bound to end up on the net and be open to ridicule.

Mind you Moyes's cardigan takes a beating :lol:

RTK - YANKEES GO HOME

The events of the past few days have proved what, deep down, we've known for a long time. These two jerry builders are not fit to be associated with our club. Whatever we might have thought about their motives, their personas, their politics, we allowed ourselves to believe that they had a gut sense of Liverpool's special ness, and a good sense of what is the minimum acceptable requirement here in terms of honour and tradition. In short, they gave a good impression of understanding, and cherishing The Liverpool Way.

They said they would build a stadium fit for the world's most legendary football club.

They said they would never contemplate securitising their loans against the club.

They said they'd back our manager.

They lied.

We know this now

We know it for an absolute fact.

Our club is in the hands of disreputable men, men who, if they want success for Liverpool, want it solely in order to fatten up the calf for sale.

The current situation is unworkable. Rafael Benitez, with his ingrained sense of honour, dignity and morality, has been publicly humiliated by Hicks and Gillett (and while Hicks is far and away the baddie of the piece, let's not underestimate the smiling, twinkling George's complicity in all this any more than he has underestimated our intelligence, our nous, and our own ingrained ability to rat out a wrong 'un when they wheedle their way in.) Rafa would have walked away by now but for one small thing the Americans will never 'get'. He loves it here. He loves the club, loves the fans, loves the city, and loves The Liverpool Way. More than anybody at the club, he is desperate to deliver for us that which we long for so badly.

They will sack him in the summer. They have left themselves with no other option. If Hicks had come out on Sunday and said:

"Fair do's Rafa, we were itchy on the trigger, you weren't conforming to the chart flow on our business plan, we wanted you out... but we realise now we got it wrong. Go buy Drenthe, Daniel Alves and Sergio Aguero, and while you're at it, tie up Mascherano long term and here's a new 5 year contract..."

You'd possibly have given them a stay of execution. But he didn't. He gave the manager (and thus the fans, the club, the players) a vote of no confidence in front of, and to the delight of, the world's slavering media. He'll have to sack Rafa in the summer, just to keep face. Unless...

Unless he's not there. And he's not too far from doing one, you know. This whole madcap scheme that George has dragged him into is far, far madder, far more expensive, and far less fun than he'd thought it'd be. He thought it was going to be like planting money seeds and picking dollar bills off the tree in a few years time. He thought Liverpool fans were going to be like Dallas Cowboys supporters, if a little louder - but nonetheless grateful for his patronage, and a little bit cowed by his enormous wealth. What he's found here is that it's difficult, it's cold, it's expensive - and the fans care a little too much about their team. They care so much that they answer back to the owners.

That's what we have to do, comrades - answer back, loud and clear. We know the arguments, we know we're not Geordies, we know there's something very un-Liverpool about all this marching and protesting. But there's something very, very Scouse about the refusal to lie down and toe the party line, the refusal to swallow corporate ***** and the willingness to strike and fight back if we need to right a wrong.

Our immediate target needs to be Foster Gillett. In the way that these flinty oligarchs always send their disappointing offspring away to the furthest, most hostile outposts of their empire to try and toughen them up, Foster has drawn the Liverpool straw. He's only pretending to live here. He spends his time in London, comes up for the Monday meeting, pads around Melwood then vapourises. He doesn't really want to be here. A sustained period of invective targeted at Foster on Monday night will unsettle him further. He'll be straight on the phone to his Dad saying:

"Look what that idiot partner of yours has subjected me to. I'm out of here."

No matter how rich the magnates or how close their partnership, filial loyalty and the need for a father to protect his offspring will come ahead of everything. The splinters we're hearing about in Hicks and Gillett's relationship will become a chasm, with the effect of accelerating their exit strategy.

Be under no illusions. If DIC come in, they'll want to run it as a business, too. Whoever comes in next - and we could be bracing ourselves for a future where ownership changes hands every 5 or 10 years - will never have Liverpool's traditions running through them like we do. But there's a minimum acceptable standard in ownership too, and Hicks and Gillett have fallen badly short. It gives us no joy to recommend it, but we have to drive them out - starting with Foster on Monday night.

These are critical times for Liverpool F.C. If Hicks stays, Rafa goes - it's that simple. And if Rafa goes, the empire he's building crumbles - no-one would even bet against Carra and Stevie Gerrard walking out on the shell that used to be LFC. All and any other reservations and complaints we've got about ticket allocations, ground moves, and horrid purple ties have to be put to one side. Any feeling about Rafa's rotation and tactics. All to one side. This is Us against Them. The Liverpool Way against The American Way. We've got run the ********, end of story. Monday night, let them know. Yankees, Yankees **** off home..."

THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT RAFA
THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT FANS
LIVERPOOL FOOTBALL CLUB
IS IN THE WRONG HANDS

Please use this thread for ideas for next Monday night. Catchy ditties that can be aired by all. Get the message acoss vocally to young Foster in the stands and his guardians back across the Atlantic. Post anything you've got below – and we'll sweep through the best of them over the weekend and get them back up, ready for everyone to air on Monday night. Tuesday night against Luton was just the start. We need to flush this cancer out of our club. We can all play our part. Fighting for The Liverpool Way. We want our club back.

We'll fight for the boys in red,
We'll fight the fight for Liverpool,
The team that Shankly bred….
_________________

in a years time the same emotional incontinents will be shouting about DICheads!

Without a doubt these are the same folk who jammed the airwaves with the same sort of stuff, except calling from Rafa to go as he was undermining some mythical scouse principle by not playing like Newcastle, or some other crap!

There's a newish fanzine out for Liverpool fans and judging by it's cover and content it looks good.

http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?p=104652#post104652

Out of interest, is there a feeling that It is on on the Kop this January like this time last year?

European Cup?

Dead right!

It's funny how you hear many Liverpool fans say they are better than any year previously under Benitez, yet this year they seem to have given up on the PL much earlier than in years gone by.

Slightly contradictory messages coming from Liverpool fans at the moment.

Rafa's big question mark is the league, it's his weakness. The attention to detail, planning and tactics employed to take on say Birmingham or Wigan is not needed. He's a meticulous man, he lloks at every detail and considers the consequence of every action and puts a plan in place to counter it. Rafa will win the league at Anfield if he loosens up and accepts to win games we may have to concede goals along the way or he gets £100 million to fit out his team with better individual players.

Are we closer...no and yet compared with previous years Liverpool are better. Bizarre. Look at the drawn games, mainly games Liverpool have 'controlled', games played on the margin, a few one goal wins and we'd be flying. Fine margins etc.

Closing a 9 point gap on 1 side is possible, doing it on 3 is tough.

Look at the drawn games, mainly games Liverpool have 'controlled', games played on the margin, a few one goal wins and we'd be flying. Fine margins etc.


I keep hearing this.

If and buts....

We ALL have if's and buts.

We battered City and lost.

We battered Arsenal to conceed a last minute equaliser (4 point swing there).

We battered Bolton and lost.

We missed a penalty against WHU when 1 - 0 up and lost.

These days the PL gets harder year by year, in reality you need to win 10 out of 12 matches to get your 90 points, and even that may not be enough this year.

There are now 3 teams that take points off each other.

A group of about 12 teams that you must get 4 preferebly 6 points off, and 8 teams you must get 6 points off.

Liverpool are still trying to catch up with the teams that won the PL in the early 2000's.

But...there it is again...I wasn't using but in the "ifithaddenbeenfer" sense. Fine margins.

Man United have sneaked away from tough, tight games this season and last because they have greater fire power than most. Again fine margins but the pack is stacked in their favour on account of Giggs, Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez and even Saha...

It will take very little to turn Liverpool from "great in Europe, tactical masters but won't win the league" to champions at home and across the continent.

And you didn't batter City, City were well worth that win!

And you didn't batter City, City were well worth that win!

We'll agree to disagree, they had one shot all match, we hit the woodwork 3 times and missed dozens of great chances.

Over the season we'll all get points we don't deserve, and drop points when we shouldn't.

If I'm honest, as a United fan I hope you keep Rafa as long as possible as he'll never get his head around the PL.

"NO MORE EXCUSES, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, TA RA FERGIE" - Stretford end bedsheet

"FERGIE MUST STAY" - Liverpool, various times

Be careful what you wish for....

as an add on to that Metro, name me a manager you think would take Liverpool from 3rd/4th and regular European Cup finalists/winners to league champions.

Other than Wenger, I'm struggling.

Indeed, good point well made.

Just like to add "or Rafa" to my final sentence.

A man who wins the European Cup, assembles a youth/reserve set up that will stand the club in good stead over the next few years and puts teams out that rarely look like getting beaten (even when they do!) deserves more time to see if he can bridge the gap.

If he does he'll have a dynasty on his hands, if he doesn't - so what, a new will need 3 years and £150 million just to get his feet under the table.

:down:

"It's a great economic model. People are worried that I might take money away from the Rangers to go to Liverpool. It's just the reverse. Liverpool is going to pull off lots of extra money that if I choose I can use for the Rangers or Stars."

Tom Hicks on Liverpool FC.

He said this on "In My Own Words" aired by Foxsports last year.

The program is on http://texas.rangers.mlb.com/tex/fan_forum/multimedia.jsp


http://mlb.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?vid=7789&_mp=1&w=2007/open/teams07/tex/video/061907_tex_hicks_ownwords_400.wmv

He makes the comments around 10.20.

Found here:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=206073.1880

Reply #1918

It's funny how you hear many Liverpool fans say they are better than any year previously under Benitez, yet this year they seem to have given up on the PL much earlier than in years gone by.

Slightly contradictory messages coming from Liverpool fans at the moment.

Do you not think we have a better team? Admittedly we've been playing badly over christmas, but we do have a better team, if you read around the bullshit in the press. Its a shame our season has been hit by lots of injuries to key players, and the press have ignored this in our case but highlight to excuse Chelsea's poor results. This is the first time in years I've seen a Liverpool side that can play keep ball, shred teams and is utterly solid at the back, albeit fleetingly this season. Look to the last 3 CL group games to see what the team is capable of; 16 goals in 3 games. We've actually lost only 2 league games so far this season. Our injuries have included:-
Alonso who has missed half a season with a broken foot
Agger has been out all year with the same injury
Pennant been missing with a broken leg for nearly half a season, and without pennant rafa seems reluctant to play crouch.
Carragher & Gerrard were injured early on in the season

the two we've missed most are Agger & Alonso, without them our distribution from the back, care of Hyypia, Riise & Carragher is more often than not a hoof up the field. Whenever we've played with proper ball playing full backs (arbeloa & aurelio) and Agger at centre half we've had a lot more options to unlock the opposition.

From today's Guardian:

Anfield owners holding out for a windfall


· Hicks denies intent to sell as brinkmanship goes on
· £350m offer from DIC may see club change hands

Andy Hunter
Monday January 21, 2008

Less than a year after they bought out Liverpool, Americans George Gillet and Tom Hicks are reported to be looking for a buyer.

Tom Hicks last night insisted he would not sell his 50% stake in Liverpool, as a game of brinkmanship developed between the club's American owners and Dubai International Capital, the corporation which would usurp them.
DIC, the investment arm of the Dubai government, is prepared to lodge a formal takeover bid for Liverpool this week having come to doubt the reported determination of George Gillett, Hicks's co-chairman at Anfield, to oust his business partner from the club after 11 troubled months in charge. But the company is adamant it will not pay an inflated price for a club who may be saddled with major debt in the coming days and who still require significant investment for a new stadium.

For their part, and despite frequent public denials, Hicks and Gillett are understood to be receptive to DIC's interest in the entire company, but only for a price that would give them a huge profit on their initial £218.9m investment. It is believed DIC inquired informally whether a £300m bid might be acceptable approximately 10 days ago and were told the Americans were seeking a far greater return. DIC's formal bid for Liverpool would have to be in the region of £350m.

The Dubai company had proposed giving Gillett the financial backing he needs to purchase Hicks's stake in the club, Gillett having been enraged by his co-chairman's admission that they approached Jürgen Klinsmann about Rafael Benítez's job and by the amount of debt the Texan wants to put on to the club's books. But Gillett has not turned his doubts into a direct challenge to Hicks and is close to agreeing to a £350m loan with the Royal Bank of Scotland and US-bank Wachovia. That would allow the Americans to refinance their original purchase of Liverpool last February, repay loans acquired to buy players in the summer and commence work on a 70,000-seat stadium. That in turn, the Americans believe, would allow them to name a higher price for Liverpool, although DIC doubts whether they can afford the £30m-a-year interest repayments and believes they will have to sell at a later date to avoid financial meltdown.

Until DIC raises its offer or the Americans lower theirs, the stand-off and the instability surrounding Liverpool will continue, though Hicks last night angrily denied reports that a deal to sell the club had already been struck.

"A report issued today claiming that the Liverpool Football Club has been sold to DIC is a complete fabrication," said Hicks in a statement. "I have not received any offer to purchase the club from the DIC or anyone else, much less accepted any such offer. Nor do I have any intention of doing so. The facts are that I and my family have always been, and remain, fully committed to co-owning the club; that no one in my family has ever indicated any intention or desire to sell our stake in the club; and that we expect and intend to be co-owners of the club and to actively and enthusiastically support the club's manager, players and fans for many years to come."

It is a turbulent background against which Liverpool face Aston Villa at Anfield tonight needing a win to break back into the top four, having been overtaken by Everton and Manchester City yesterday.

"Villa are closer to us now, as are Everton and Manchester City, so we know we cannot make any mistakes," said Benítez

yoshef - LFC may be slightly better than in years gone by, however, I reckon they are further from winning the league than at any previous point under Benitez. The other teams are getting better faster.

Benitez took over a fairly decent squad, and hasn't really got much closer to the top teams in the last 2 / 3 years.

The comparision to Fergie dosen't hold water - he took over a team 2nd bottom of the league, full of alcoholics, and going no where.

yoshef - LFC may be slightly better than in years gone by, however, I reckon they are further from winning the league than at any previous point under Benitez. The other teams are getting better faster.

Benitez took over a fairly decent squad, and hasn't really got much closer to the top teams in the last 2 / 3 years.

The comparision to Fergie dosen't hold water - he took over a team 2nd bottom of the league, full of alcoholics, and going no where.

how do you reckon that? Can you go through Benitez's "fairly decent squad" that Benitez inherited and tell me where the players are now?

remember that you're comparing the likes of Igor Biscan to Xabi Alonso, Djibril Cisse to Fernando Torres, Salif Diao to Javier Mascherano, Stephane Henchoz to Daniel Agger, Bruno Cheyrou to Jermaine Pennant, Neil Mellor to Peter Crouch, Florent Sinama Pongolle to Ryan Babel. Some of these players, e.g. Salif Diao where signed on high wages, long contracts and were content to sit out their contracts, tying up resources, and most of them were sold at a loss (basically because they were crap).

The comparision to Fergie dosen't hold water - he took over a team 2nd bottom of the league, full of alcoholics, and going no where.

Revisionist bollocks. He stumbled and fumbled around, faced the sack and eventually broke Man Uniteds 26 year old duck when Liverpool and Arsenal took a nose dive. Largely due to tight, stifling football with a match winner in goal and Cantona up front. Once the barrier was broken the whole thing developed.

Rafa's brought the quality of the team and squad up, there's no doubting that. 2 European Cup finals (that's one more than Alex 21 years in charge of the richest, biggest, greatest football team ever Ferguson) in 3 seasons suggests progress.

In fact an argument could be made that Ferguson is a failure owing to his dismal European record.

The comparision to Fergie dosen't hold water - he took over a team 2nd bottom of the league, full of alcoholics, and going no where.

:lol: thats utter bullshit, Ferguson inherited a team consistently finishing in the top 4, and finished 11th in his first season, spent heavily - finished 2nd in his second but then back down the table for years, continually spending heavily.

81-82 3rd atkinson
82-83 3rd atkinson
83-84 4th atkinson
84-85 4th atkinson
85-86 4th atkinson
86-87 ferguson takes over in november after ron is sacked for a bad start - 11th
87-88 2nd ferguson
88-89 11th ferguson
89-90 13th ferguson
90-91 6th ferguson

Revisionist bollocks. He stumbled and fumbled around, faced the sack and eventually broke Man Uniteds 26 year old duck when Liverpool and Arsenal took a nose dive. Largely due to tight, stifling football with a match winner in goal and Cantona up front. Once the barrier was broken the whole thing developed.

Rafa's brought the quality of the team and squad up, there's no doubting that. 2 European Cup finals (that's one more than Alex 21 years in charge of the richest, biggest, greatest football team ever Ferguson) in 3 seasons suggests progress.

In fact an argument could be made that Ferguson is a failure owing to his dismal European record.

Good point - re Ferguson's record in Europe - to be fair to him United have an appalling European record relative to their reputation - three major European finals in the 50 or so years since they first competed in European competition.

No one can doubt that Ferguson has done a great job domestically but underachieved in Europe. To argue otherwise would be foolish.

What galls me with the media is that just because we have spent 21m on one player we have somehow attempted to buy the league. Otherwise most of Benitez's big buys are in the 6m to 10m bracket which is chicken feed in todays market.

Man Utd have two 28m players and four 18m players as well as a 12m and the usual 5m to 10m squad players. That is not to mention Chelsea's ridiculous outlay on players. Even as members of the so called big four we and Arsenal are not competing on a level playing field.

Yet Arsenal can win the prem and can take Utd to the wire when they don't?

At this point, what would the Livepool fans consider a successful (domestic) season?

Less than 2 points behind the league winners and in the top 4?

Would failing to qualify for the CL or even Europe althogether, be enough for the fans to turn against Benitez?

Yet Arsenal can win the prem and can take Utd to the wire when they don't?

But in the last 3 years since the start of the Mourinho era at Chelsea, the start of the so-called big four, Arsenal have won nothing and we have won the Champions League and FA Cup and finished above them for the last 2 seasons.

I appreciate Arsenal's qualities and recognise Wenger's achievements this season and I also stand by my statement that currently and during this period Utd and Chelsea enjoy riches beyond Liverpool and Arsenal and the rest.

But in the last 3 years since the start of the Mourinho era at Chelsea, the start of the so-called big four, Arsenal have won nothing and we have won the Champions League and FA Cup and finished above them for the last 2 seasons.

I appreciate Arsenal's qualities and recognise Wenger's achievements this season and I also stand by my statement that currently and during this period Utd and Chelsea enjoy riches beyond Liverpool and Arsenal and the rest.

Actually Arsenal won the Cup in 2005 beating Mancs and nearly won Champions League in 06 but I take your point - Arsenal have not challenged for the title since Chelsea emerged. Maybe they will this time - we (LFC) won't.

Actually Arsenal won the Cup in 2005 beating Mancs and nearly won Champions League in 06 but I take your point - Arsenal have not challenged for the title since Chelsea emerged. Maybe they will this time - we (LFC) won't.

Fair enough. I thought that was 2004. The sad thing is I can name the FA cup winners in the 70s and 80s but not 3 or 4 years ago. Unfortunately it shows how devalued the FA Cup has become in recent times. We also nearly won the Champions League last year but you get nothing for nearlies. If we don't win the league (as looks likely), I hope Arsenal do win it because most of what they do, at least on the pitch, is what is good about the game.

Comic capers in the cup. If nothing else we're keeping the rest of the footballing world amused :no:

Some people have painted themselves so far into a corner with the 'Rafa is God' stuff that they will not be able to manouver, no matter how iffy the man may (or may not!) turn out to be. How can they overturn such unequivocal backing given over the last few weeks.. this went way beyond sanity, leaving them, as I say, with no way out, should they be shown to be innaccurate in their devotions.


What will happen if in the future, if the owners (who ever, or what ever global megacorps this may be) should be considering someone better, but are scared of stirring up the over emotional and violently expressive once again? I can just hear the chants now
"we're in division 2, but we don't care - Rafa's ours and our club ain't about money"

What a quandry.

Does anybody really think that the two yanks spoke to Klinsman because they want to do worse for the club.. or perhpas do you think that they may have thought that he may indeed do a better job for LFC, an institution that they have an interest in being successfull, than rafa currently is?

Yes, Americans can never, ever do any wrong. Pity they didn't get the IDF involved somehow. They're lovely. :yes:

Isn't that just passionate fans supporting their team, saying don't pull fast tricks behind our backs, we wont be shat on easily....!

but the language! I don't agree Juxt. I found it all quite embarrassing, not to say irritating. It went way too far. As I say, what happens if it becomes obvious that Rafa isn't Gods representative on Earth.

Also, at the end of the day it isn't the fans club...and 'we' took the thirty pieces of silver a long time ago. Even when my love of the club was unconditional (take that to read when I was an imature youngster) I was never so deluded to think that I or any other fan had some sort of veto on how the club was run. Expressing opinion is one thing.. making absurd demands is quite another. The Americans have only acted in the way any corporate owner would/will.. you will have to get use to that, having already took the silver! Some people have taken such an extreme position that they now have no way back, if Rafa is no good, or, God forbid, the Yankees turn out to be quite good owners!


As I said the other week, alternatives where on the cards once. Fans could have bought the club out and did a Baca sort of thing.. or they could do what those who sincerely objected to Man U taking the corporate route did, by taking the 'soul' with them and starting afresh?

Yes, Americans can never, ever do any wrong. Pity they didn't get the IDF involved somehow. They're lovely. :yes:

In the context of my usual respect for you awayo, you're becomeing a bit of a tit with this 'yankee love' thing.

Read my posts properly, it is about the nature of corporate football clubs, not about being owned by Americans. As I said, DIC or any other take over group will behave in exactly the same way.. having their 'investment', not what the tribe on the terraces think, as the first priority.

My other main point, of course, is that I am begginning to think that Rafa ain't so good! What happens if there comes a day that it becomes obvious that we need to get someone better, now that so many have pinned their colours so absolutely to the rafa mast... er, if you know what I mean!

As I say, what happens if it becomes obvious that Rafa isn't Gods representative on Earth.

Then he becomes unpopular and then gets replaced like many previous managers, no need to hold over-passionate fans to shame in some sort of corner for supporting Rafa.

Also, at the end of the day it isn't the fans club...and 'we' took the thirty pieces of silver a long time ago. Even when my love of the club was unconditional (take that to read when I was an imature youngster) I was never so deluded to think that I or any other fan had some sort of veto on how the club was run.

Like most clubs, it may not be the fans club in terms of ownership, but without those paying fans, there will be vastly reduced revenue. There will be many new fans ready to take the place of any fan that leaves though.

Expressing opinion is one thing.. making absurd demands is quite another. The Americans have only acted in the way any corporate owner would/will.. you will have to get use to that, having already took the silver! Some people have taken such an extreme position that they now have no way back, if Rafa is no good, or, God forbid, the Yankees turn out to be quite good owners!

The fans had no choice in the matter of where the silver payer was coming from, they are aware that they have no choice, but they have a freedom to let be heared their opinnion on the actions of these silverpayers.

As I said the other week, alternatives where on the cards once. Fans could have bought the club out and did a Baca sort of thing.. or they could do what those who sincerely objected to Man U taking the corporate route did, by taking the 'soul' with them and starting afresh?

Or they can just shut up and be un-passionate supporters.


I don't understand your position on this whole matter, you say you fully supported the club years ago, when you knew the club had taken the silver, but now have lost interest due to taking silver from another source.

Yes, OVER emotional sums it up just about right. That is my point.


I am not blaming over emotional fans for supporting him, I am complaining about them making a huge political gamble on the back of it. What is wrong with the owners sounding out klinsman if they feel that he could do a better job for LFC than rafa? Just think about it. Fans should not have that sort of veto .. and feeling that they do, well!
As I said, they are not just voicing their opinions, they are trying to intefere in a process that they all agreed to go along with.

Should those lunatic Take That fans be able to dictate anything to do with the groups commercial ventures, because they are the fans, and fill the venues?


For myself, I am not saying I have lost interest in LFC, I still love them, it is that wider development within football which brought home the fact that the whole game (including LFC) has gravitated away from the likes of me. I also said that evven when I was a kid I was never so deluded to feel actual ownership over the private enterprise. Nobody makes you place your alleigence to any particular club, people make their own choices to dedicate too much of their lives and passions to corproate ventures.

I am not blaming over emotional fans for supporting him, I am complaining about them making a huge political gamble on the back of it. What is wrong with the owners sounding out klinsman if they feel that he could do a better job for LFC than rafa? Just think about it. Fans should not have that sort of veto .. and feeling that they do, well!
As I said, they are not just voicing their opinions, they are trying to intefere in a process that they all agreed to go along with.

Should those lunatic Take That fans be able to dictate anything to do with the groups commercial ventures, because they are the fans, and fill the venues?


For myself, I am not saying I have lost interest in LFC, I still love them, it is that wider development within football which brought home the fact that the whole game (including LFC) has gravitated away from the likes of me. I also said that evven when I was a kid I was never so deluded to feel actual ownership over the private enterprise. Nobody makes you place your alleigence to any particular club, people make their own choices to dedicate too much of their lives and passions to corproate ventures.

Actually, just thinking, my Take That analogy works quite well with regards to teh current LFC situation. Just like groups like that have over enthusiastic fans, very few of them go on to become stalkers... some LFC fans have behaved like manic stalkers lately. As I said, no way back if their issues prove to be illfounded.

I have also made clear my views on the previous owner, the cliched and stupidly sentimental Moores fellow, on here. That is my opinion. I would never in a million years though have demonstrated on the KOP or taken such a viscious and detrimental campaign in an attempt to make his presence untenable.. as at the end of the day it was HIS fucking club, not mine!

I think a sense of reality of what football is and what LFC is are needed. Bill Shankley was right when he said that it was more important than life and death.... as he was making a joke!

This maybe to do with the new owners only recently owning the club, then getting into a dispute with Rafa, then sounding out a replacement, which the fans did not like. Rafa is a very popular man at the moment, as soon as the results go the wrong way Rafa will loose support and then will be replaced. The fans are reacting to what they see as the wrong actions by new owners, the fans can not be accused of interferring in political matters, they are loyal paying fans, not power holding politicians, so if the owners do react against the fans, due to a small number of "Violently offensive fans", then they will be the wrong owners.

yes, then the fans will be seen as fickle, reactionary and over emotional pricks, who have now real knowledge of 'these things', which is just my point. Some of the things, like boycotts of companies associated with these two etc, have been absurd... total war .. and yet they may be wrong. If they had their way and the club was sold why is there an expectation that other owners would act as merely representatives of the fans wishes, rather than owners of the club in which they have made some sort of heavy investment?

If you want LFC to be able to compete to win things you will have to put up with this lack of respect and consulation, as it is this path that 'we' decided some time ago to agree would be best to keep 'our' club successfull. It has been that way for years and will only get more intense.

As for your last point, I agree and I just hope you are right... who ever runs the place... I still love it.

Just seen the LFC thread on the sports section.. the ridicule exposes just how wrong some of the actions have been. The irony (especially giving awayos daft comments below) is that I have always thought that the two americans were the wrong ones to take over the club. American sports business is entirely alien to what goes on in Europe, and it is these big European clubs that we have to compete with, nobody else. I think it would have been better to go with DIC the first time, but then that leaves me open to accusations of only being clever in hindsight. I am though, prepared to stick with my opinion should a third party come in, especially if it comes from within the city... Moores markII, effin hell!

In the context of my usual respect for you awayo, you're becomeing a bit of a tit with this 'yankee love' thing.

Read my posts properly, it is about the nature of corporate football clubs, not about being owned by Americans. As I said, DIC or any other take over group will behave in exactly the same way.. having their 'investment', not what the tribe on the terraces think, as the first priority.

My other main point, of course, is that I am begginning to think that Rafa ain't so good! What happens if there comes a day that it becomes obvious that we need to get someone better, now that so many have pinned their colours so absolutely to the rafa mast... er, if you know what I mean!

Okay, Tony, I'll believe you about the corporate thing.

However, the fans' ire over Hicks' comments and behaviour in recent weeks is a direct response to them. They're not being over-emotional and hankering back to a golden age of working class footie. After all, they mostly (and probably naively) welcomed G&H's take over of the club.

Considering Hicks' treatment of Benitez and barefaced lies or this and other matters concerned with the stadium and debt, it was inevitable that the fans would have been pissed off. And rightly so.

I don't really see why they should. My guess is that they would only approach Klinsman (or anybody else, personally I think Klinsman would have been terrible) if they felt that he could do better for LFC, and therefore their 'investment'? ANY new owner will behave in exactly the same way. I think it is the gross over reaction to them sounding Klinsman out that irked me most actually. There is only one reason as to why they would do this. One of the reasons why I got myself in a tizz about this issue is that so many have been making thier doubts about Rafa anyway, especially on the radio phone ins, I have a feeling that they are the very same people, emotional retards - same tactics and knee jerk responses!

I am not saying people should not be pissed or have an opinion, it was the embarrissingly overboard nature of the campaigns that made me cringe.

As for things like the ground and refinancing, this is what I mean about the way in which corporate football works, no owners would do anything different, thats the way it is. People backed the move into this type of environment in the belief that it will enable us to keep on winning things, now they want a sugar daddy to come in, subsidise the club, give what is possibly a mediocre manager unlimited amounts of cash to spend just how he wants, and get the fans permission before they fart in the directors box.... it won't happen and if anyone thought that corporate football would work any other way will be in for many many heartaches in the coming years.


remember the old saying that held well for decades, about nobody entering football (ownership) in order to make money? The world of corporate football is exclusively about making money. I think corporate football will help Liverpool to sustain successes, I dispair though about the impact it will have on the wider game, long term.. but there you go, 'we' took the 30 pieces of silver and betrayed the game in the process. We are part of something else now. The downside is that people who go to matches have to see themselves as customers now, which will eventually make as much sense as giving your heart to B&Q or Woolworths....
sadly.

This was found here:

http://www.liverpoolway.co.uk/forum/ff-football-forum/56113-dubai-international-capital-dic.html


Reasons why DIC have to take over LFC + Sheikh Mohamed's image

F2IXgUebtDQ&eur

Kraft hints at Reds bid

American has not ruled out Liverpool takeover

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_3092096,00.html


American businessman Robert Kraft admits he has not ruled out a possible takeover of Liverpool.

Kraft owns American football side New England Patriots and Major League Soccer outfit New England Revolution.

And Kraft - who is founder, chairman and chief executive of the Kraft Group - was strongly linked with a bid to buy the Reds before the Merseyside club was taken over by fellow Americans George Gillett and Tom Hicks for £470million in 2007.

However, Gillett and Hicks are rumoured to be unsettled on Merseyside following Liverpool's lacklustre form and a much publicised bust-up with manager Rafa Benitez regarding the club's January transfer policy.

Dubai International Capital are thought to remain interested in a bid to buy out Gillett and Hicks, after withdrawing from the race to own the Reds last year, and Kraft has now hinted that he could also consider a takeover at Anfield.

"We haven't ruled it out completely," Kraft told Sky Sports News.

"But I'm worried a little bit. I want to be able to win whatever we do. But there are no rules in terms of spending on players.

"We would never want to be in a business where we couldn't compete and right now some of the structure doesn't allow you to compete on a level playing field."

And Kraft admits he has met with David Moores, who was Liverpool chairman before selling his stake to Gillett and Hicks and is now a director at Anfield, in the past.

"I spent a lot of time with Mr Moores and his group in Liverpool and we know something about building an opportunity," Kraft added.

"The fan base in Liverpool is a lot like the fan base of the Patriots when we bought them.

"They are dedicated fans if you give them a quality product and they know you are doing their best to win."

Kraft hints at Reds bid

American has not ruled out Liverpool takeover

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_3092096,00.html


American businessman Robert Kraft admits he has not ruled out a possible takeover of Liverpool.

Kraft owns American football side New England Patriots and Major League Soccer outfit New England Revolution.

And Kraft - who is founder, chairman and chief executive of the Kraft Group - was strongly linked with a bid to buy the Reds before the Merseyside club was taken over by fellow Americans George Gillett and Tom Hicks for £470million in 2007.

However, Gillett and Hicks are rumoured to be unsettled on Merseyside following Liverpool's lacklustre form and a much publicised bust-up with manager Rafa Benitez regarding the club's January transfer policy.

Dubai International Capital are thought to remain interested in a bid to buy out Gillett and Hicks, after withdrawing from the race to own the Reds last year, and Kraft has now hinted that he could also consider a takeover at Anfield.

"We haven't ruled it out completely," Kraft told Sky Sports News.

"But I'm worried a little bit. I want to be able to win whatever we do. But there are no rules in terms of spending on players.

"We would never want to be in a business where we couldn't compete and right now some of the structure doesn't allow you to compete on a level playing field."

And Kraft admits he has met with David Moores, who was Liverpool chairman before selling his stake to Gillett and Hicks and is now a director at Anfield, in the past.

"I spent a lot of time with Mr Moores and his group in Liverpool and we know something about building an opportunity," Kraft added.

"The fan base in Liverpool is a lot like the fan base of the Patriots when we bought them.

"They are dedicated fans if you give them a quality product and they know you are doing their best to win."


Dont call us mr Kraft, we'll call you!

Think he is probably cut from the same cloth as messers gilllette and hicks.

I mean, "The fan base in Liverpool is a lot like the fan base of the Patriots when we bought them.

"They are dedicated fans if you give them a quality product and they know you are doing their best to win".

Yet more american corporate bull!

From icliverpool tonight. How likely this is to happen, I've no idea but potentially this is the best case scenario. Not much meat on the bones of the story as yet.

A NEW group is preparing a plan to buy out Liverpool FC's US owners.

It is understood the group comprises high-profile LFC fans, legal experts and people in senior public positions.

They are believed to be proposing a Continental-style model where fans own a huge stake in major clubs.

The ECHO understands the group plans to raise £500m to buy the club AND finance a new stadium.

^^

£500m
100,000 fans


£5,000 each.

Hmmm, when fans complain about season ticket prices and attendances for FA Cup matches are below capacity, I do not think you will ever get this many `fans' to cough up £5,000 each.

I would have thought the missus, Mr Mortgage, the Kids, the new car would all take precedent over this.

Getting a bit like the anti Glazer brigade at OT.

1st and foremost the team is poor, nowt to do with the current owners!

^^

£500m
100,000 fans


£5,000 each.

Hmmm, when fans complain about season ticket prices and attendances for FA Cup matches are below capacity, I do not think you will ever get this many `fans' to cough up £5,000 each.

I would have thought the missus, Mr Mortgage, the Kids, the new car would all take precedent over this.

Getting a bit like the anti Glazer brigade at OT.

1st and foremost the team is poor, nowt to do with the current owners!

But that assumes that all fans would have an equal stake, which is obviously not the case. This would only work with a number of substantial backers. There are plenty of businessmen out there who could invest £1 million in the club without breaking a sweat. So for every one who does that, there are 200 fans who would only have to pay £1! Also, complaining about ticket prices and buying a stake in your own club are entirely different things.

^^

£500m
100,000 fans


£5,000 each.

Hmmm, when fans complain about season ticket prices and attendances for FA Cup matches are below capacity, I do not think you will ever get this many `fans' to cough up £5,000 each.

I would have thought the missus, Mr Mortgage, the Kids, the new car would all take precedent over this.

Getting a bit like the anti Glazer brigade at OT.

1st and foremost the team is poor, nowt to do with the current owners!

actually Liverpool's fa cup matches this season were both "sell outs". just under 42,000 against luton (despite it being on the telly) and 42,500 against Havant and Waterlooville. why they had to have so much segragation (espically against the non league team is beyond me) as it knocked about 2,000 off the 44,500 capacity :bash:. Indeed Arsenal managed to fill their 60,000 capacity against Newcastle without worrying about mass segragation.

But that assumes that all fans would have an equal stake, which is obviously not the case.

Actually, the plan IS for everyone to have an equal stake

Actually, the plan IS for everyone to have an equal stake

At the intial stage it is yes - what I meant was that for the plan of a 'fans' buyout to succeed it doesn't necessarily rely soley on getting everyone to pay up £5000. If they don't sell enough stakes at that price, then they can raise the stakes and offer the opportunity for people with more money to buy larger stakes (there are plenty of very rich Liverpool fans around the world, and even in our city). They wouldn't have a greater say in the running of the club, but would get a proportionally larger return on their investment.

there are posts on RAWK suggesting pooling together, ie 100 fans pooling £50 each to buy 1% of a share.

They'd have to make the directors box a lot bigger.

LIVERPOOL SUPPORTERS UNION
'Sons Of Shankly


"The socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, everyone having a share of the rewards. It's the way I see football, the way I see life" (Bill Shankly)

Where we are now : Well we've set up a working party that will meet shortly to discuss the issuing of a statement to the supporters on behalf of the group, tentatively titled 'The Sons Of Shankly ',. We have also agreed a strategy to conduct elections and the creation of formal committee to take the group forward . A meeting will be called within the next few weeks to allow all interested parties to attend and contribute to the creation of the new group.

In the interim , Nicky Allt has agreed to stand as chairman, Neil Atkinson as spokesperson, with Giulio Canneti, Andy Heaton and Alan Kayll filling all other administrative roles in the interim.

We intend to contact eveyone who expressed an interest in getting involved last night . Please bear with us, as the response last night far exceeded our wildest expectations, it could hardly have been more of a success, but we will get back to you as soon as we can .


The outcome of the meeting last night was that the fans stand united behind two aims :

* Firstly, the short term aim of getting Hicks and Gillett out of our club. Its not just about the debt; there's their lies, deceits and lack of respect for us. We hit them in pocket and we do so noisily but peacefully. We will start with a boycott of the club Shops - persuade people not to buy from official outlets; making LFC a less attractive financial proposition for G&H. We are also calling for a 15 minute post-game protest immediately after the final whistle after the Sunderland game. Stay in your seats and make your views known loudly.

* Secondly, the aim is to set the 'Sons Of Shankly ' group up as a subscription based trade-union style movement , similar to continental socio groups, based upon one-member one-vote principles which can stridently represent our interests, i.e. the interests of every Liverpool supporter.

We acknowledge we need mainstream support and that many supporters do not go on internet forums or websites. The support of these supporters are crucial to our goals. If we stand united and speak with one voice both of these goals are possible. It was acknowledged that any alternative to the current ownership will not be benign and that we'll need to stand together and voice our common goals not just for six weeks but for sixty years, not just with 400 but with 4 million. We can use the brand and its popularity against anyone who tries to exploit us.

interesting piece!

http://www.thebusiness.co.uk/the-magazine/cover-story/477216/spreading-the-wealth.thtml

Forget the fans buyout, nice idea but there's no way 100,000 people or mini consortiums will come together with £5k each. In fact I feel that we're being had off by Rogan Taylor - it's an academic experiment.

Liverpool FCs future is as a profit vehicle for someone else, that needn't be a major concern so long as the owners get a balance between what they do for the club and how they do it with what they take out. In fact there's a big big argument to say Liverpool FC NEED to be more commercially driven and aware if they want to achieve and maintain success. The fact that the most successful football club, in the richest, most watched league on the planet, with one of the biggest fan bases in any sport had to go whoring around the globe for 'investors' tells you that previous regimes have failed to develop off the field activities to sufficiently aid the team.

Hicks (I'll stick with Hicks because it seems Gillet has gone AWOL) doesn't appear to have the clout (money, not a big fanny) or brains to run OUR football club so I back any moves to influence regime change. It's refreshing to see Liverpool fans once again taking a moral, well thought out and dignified approach to demonstration.

how about 10,000,000 liverpool fans each paying £50 each. then we can all have a slice of the cake! :cheers:

Share Liverpool FC

FAQs

http://www.shareliverpoolfc.com/faqs.php


Are you really going to get 100,000 people
to sign up in this short a space of time?

We took nearly 50,000 fans to Istanbul – Athens too. In reality, it cost most of us between £1,000 and £2,000 to make the trip; more if we took our partners & kids along. Liverpool fans have always turned out when the Club needed them. They find the money somehow, even at short notice. And remember, there are literally millions of us round the world who really care about LFC.

Yes, but £5,000 is a lot of money. Won’t
many Liverpool fans be effectively priced
out of something they’d love to take part in?

Take your point. We don’t want to see any Liverpool fan excluded. We will seek to provide opportunities for groups of fans to purchase one ‘member share’ (carrying one vote) between them, providing they can nominate one individual to represent them.

Why shouldn’t I just wait and see what happens, without putting up any money?

You could miss out badly. The list will close. Also we will propose giving the first 20,000 people to respond special staus and possibly enhanced advantages for ticket purchase. Those who commit first deserve some reward for their enthusiasm.

Modern sports clubs can’t be run like this, can they?

Why not? Many people know that Barcelona
and Real Madrid are owned by their fans. So are
German clubs, apart from Bayer Leverkusen.
In fact, teams owned by their fans like this have won the European Cup 6 times since it became the Champions League in 1992. Even in USA, the NFL Green Bay Packers are run by a not-for-profit company; they’ve won the Superbowl 3 times despite having by far the smallest population of any NFL team.

That’s fine, but in Britain, especially if you need a new stadium, you need a sugar-daddy. That’s the reality, isn’t it?

No. Look at Arsenal. They’ve no sugar-daddy. The club costed up its plans, secured loans and convinced people to lend to them at a fixed-rate. The Banks trust the club’s finances will be well-run and that fans will continue to watch the club.

If we could show how much fans of this club care, and how they’re prepared to back their
faith with hard cash, then everything changes.
We don’t need a sugar daddy – we ARE the sugar daddy - because most of the money comes from us in the end anyway.

How do we get investment in the future
or cash to buy players?

If we have a well run, debt free Club to start
with, there will be money to buy players (how much do you think is spent servicing the Club’s debts?). Also the elected Board may wish
to raise money (as any business must sometimes). At Barca, very rich individuals stand for election with promises of further investment. But it doesn’t mean they ‘own’ any part of Club.

But surely this way of running things ‘mutually’ belongs to the past?

The Co-operative group, with shops, a bank, insurance and undertakers is run like this. It’s got a turnover of £8 billion a year, and buries
1 in 4 of us! It is also the biggest farmer in the country and the biggest retail co-operative in the world. It‘s owned by over 2 million customers, all owning one share.

What if we don’t get the £500m?

Lets say we only get £100m – the equivalent
of 20,000 fans signing up. At that point we would ask the 20,000 ‘members’ what they want to do. Some of us might want – as a group (Supporters' Trust) - to buy a significant portion of the club’s shares. Certainly, at that point, any individual member who wanted the money returned would be entitled to it.

Can I sell my share later on? What if I need the money back in a rush?

The simple answer to the first question is no. There will be no ordinary‘trading’ in individual shares – no profit can be made from selling
them - (otherwise the Club would be permanently ‘up for sale’ – just like Man Utd was). However, if a member can find someone who does not already own a member share, then a transfer at the original price may be arranged through the elected Board.

Nobody will be asked to part with a penny until a detailed Constitution is presented in which all necessary details are made plain.

How do we know we’ve hit the target?

We will have a partner Bank where the monies will be kept until we reach the target. We will ask the two Bishops of Liverpool to act as verifiers for us – they’ll see the bank accounts, have access to all the books and be able to speak to the bank to certify that it’s all there. We will also ask the Liverpool City Council Treasurer to act as a scrutineer.

So, if we don’t make the targets and we all take our money back, what about the interest the money has earned?

We’ll donate it to a Charity of your choice, less any deductions for verifiable expenses incurred in running the ‘Share Liverpool FC’ operation (website server charges; legal costs to draw up a Constitution etc.).

What will we get to vote on?

Members will elect the Board of Directors for Liverpool FC, for a term to be decided by you. (Barcelona elect their President every four years.) After an Election, just like the Government, the Board will have executive control of the Club, but they may want an elected ‘Fans’ Council’ to advise them. The Board will know that – in a few years time - they will be judged on their performance by the owners – YOU.

Will we get a vote on the team or the manager?

No. The elected Board has executive responsibility for running the Club.

Will members be guaranteed a ticket if they want one?

With 100,000 members? You’re kidding!

Has anyone ever done this in UK before?

No, though there have been many formations of ‘Supporters' Trusts’ at professional clubs in the past decade– and three Football League Clubs are run by a majority shareholder Supporters' Trust. Liverpool would be the pioneers in completing a ‘members’ buy-out.

What we propose would probably start a ‘revolution’ in Club ownership structures in UK. But then, Liverpool fans have often been at the vanguard of changing the culture of football.

"The Barcelona model, to me, is how a football club should be run. They are one of the most pre-eminent names in world football, yet the club is owned by its supporters on a one-member, one-vote basis and they control it. That strengthens it because it's never subject to the whim of one person; it's a collective endeavour. English football should see that as a big strength. I'd love to see if we could grow the Barcelona model here."

Andy Burnham,
Secretary of State for Culture, Media & Sport.

http://www.shareliverpoolfc.com/legal.php

The problem with trying to replicate the Barca model is that they did it from scratch, we're looking at raising £500,000,000 and will still then require borrowing of £350/500,000,000 on top to finance the modernisation of the clubs assets and providing working capital!

Nice idea but it'll need a long time to establish, ideally we'd need someone to come into the club now and then set up a mechanism for turning it over to a society or trust over an extended period, say 10/15 years.

It'll be interesting to see the level of involvement but I can't help but think it's an emotional quest rather than a practical one at this stage being ran by academics who'll no doubt do a paper on the social experiment at some point.

there are posts on RAWK suggesting pooling together, ie 100 fans pooling £50 each to buy 1% of a share.



I pledged to that scheme, some generous person has said he'll match the first 200 people to pledge so in effect I will be giving £100 instead...got to start somewhere

Q.7: Those 2 million people are shareholders so it's different.

Q.14 Wrong, Stockport County are run like that and the exec was interviewed on BBC Radio Merseyside the other night.

I could pick holes in a few other things too, i'll be surprised if this happens on the scale required. And that's without a transfer kitty. It'll have to be an offer that can't be refused for the yanks to give up on an organisation they have found to offload their losses onto.

on the DIC front, the Echo had this interesting little snippet today


Significantly, Sheikh Mohammed al-Maktoum, whom the ECHO can reveal was a boyhood Liverpool fan, has now taken a personal interest in making the deal happen.

LIVERPOOL SUPPORTERS UNION
"Sons of Shankly"


You may or may not have heard of us. But here's a little bit about who we are.

To do exactly as it says on the tin. A Union for all Liverpool Supporters.
A voice that represents us all. A platform for us all to stand together and fight for what we believe in.

It is early days, and more details of how the organisation will grow will appear over the next few weeks and months. But the catalyst for our formation.....

We want Tom Hicks and George Gillett out of our club - why?

THEY LIED & HAVE JEOPARDISED OUR CLUB FOR THEIR PERSONAL GAIN

They promised that all loans would be would be secured against their own personal assets.

THEY LIED

•They have taken out a loan of £350m. £105m has been secured against the club and £245m against Kop Holdings – which owns 100% of Liverpool Football Club and has only one source of revenue: The Club.

•So, regardless of the smoke and mirrors, Liverpool Football Club has to pay all of the interest on all of the £350m.

•The interest payments alone for this debt will be around £30m each year. All of which will be payable by Liverpool FC – more than enough to wipe out the club's operating profit.

•Gillett and Hicks have only taken out this new loan over an 18 month contract. This is very unusual for a deal of this size; three years is the usual minimum term. Wall Street analysts believe that this is because they had difficulty in getting the banks to lend them the money. Which raises questions about:


THE STADIUM

• £60m of that loan has been earmarked for starting construction of the new ground.

•There is no funding yet in place to complete the stadium, nor has planning permission been granted for a 71,000 capacity. Existing consent is for 60,000, with any increase depending upon improvements to transport and car parking. With no underground car park, the new plans have less car parking than the original 60,000 design!

•If they can't borrow again in 18 months then they cannot complete the stadium. How can they pledge now that the stadium will be built? In the same way they pledged it would be well on its way to completion twelve months ago – by misleading us.

•So do they actually intend to complete the building of the new stadium?

•Should Hicks & Gillett get the loan to actually build the new ground, the additional interest payments will be £25m per year.

•This will leave Liverpool Football Club to shoulder annual payments of £55m in interest alone. Which begs the question:


WHERE WILL THE FUNDS COME FROM FOR TRANSFERS?
• When they took over, Hicks & Gillett promised to back the manager in the transfer market.

•From the two transfer windows Hicks and Gillett have owned the club for, Benitez has spent £48.5m on players, and recouped £33.5m in player sales. A net spend of £15m. This is the up-to-date figure that includes the purchase of Skrtel and the sale of Sissoko.

•The club brought in around £30m from the run to the Champions League Final last season alone. On top of this there is the increased TV money the club's has received.

•Where is the money Gillett and Hicks have backed the manager with? They've lied to us, they've manipulated the press, and some people have believed the spin. We won't.

•In reality, after all the talk about money and Snoogy Doogy, the manager has spent £15m in the last two transfer windows. How is that backing him in the transfer market?


It is about time the real picture was painted for all Liverpool fans out there.
They promised to respect the club's heritage, history and traditions.

THEY HAVE LIED AND LIED.

They asked to be judged on what their actions. Well they have failed to make a start or produce the funding on the stadium, the major reason why David Moores looked for investment, they have failed to back the manager in the transfer market, They have not put one single cent of their own money into this club and they have undermined the traditions of the football club and the office of manager.

They have, however, managed to create huge debt for LFC to pay off without any end product.

How, exactly, is the football club in a better position now than it was twelve months ago under David Moores?

After the Sunderland game, we staged a 15 minutes stay behind protest at the end of the game. We intend to do the same again.

During the protest, Steve McManaman commented on Setanta that the Americans had backed the manager in the transfer market, secured their new loan bringing money into the club, and we should all forget about it and move on. We don't blame McManaman, a fair number of good Reds have been won over by their spin, so why shouldn't a blue?


So it's time to spread the message and get the real goings on from within Anfield to a wider audience.
It's about time the truth was exposed.
Hicks and Gillett have to be forced out of Anfield before they wreak more havoc.

Keep a look out for http://www.sonsofshankly.com which will be going live in the next few days. We'll be handing out flyers at the match with details of any future events.

We'll announce any future meetings on our website, everyone invited, all opinions welcomed.

Please send this announcement on to everyone you know. And keep an eye on our website for further updates and how to get involved.



The next meeting is scheduled for The Olympia at 12pm on Saturday 16th February – before the Barnsley game.
The Olympia
99 West Derby Road
Liverpool
L6 2AF

Everybody welcome - See you all there.



"Liverpool Football Club, Is In The Wrong Hands"

"The socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, everyone having a share of the rewards.
It's the way I see football, the way I see life"

LIVERPOOL SUPPORTERS UNION
"Sons of Shankly"

I think the 'Sons of Shankly' have more chance of success in getting rid of G & H than the share scheme.
Will keep my eye out for the web site.

They have my support. I will go along to that meet with me mates.As for mcmanaman, the less said the better. He was the player who cost Liverpool up to £15Million (his valuation at the time) in 1997 by seeing out the rest of his contract and later going on a Bosman free. Ok you cant blame him looking after number 1 but am glad i have sky and not sentana and dont have to listen to him trying to sound articulate. One of the most overated footballers who ever played for Liverpool in my opinion.

Gillet out, DIC in.

We'll be hating Arabs next season.

Any match going reds get down to the Olympia on Saturday from noonish, it's not a single focus event it's a start towards bring the support back together as one to counter ongoing and future issues.

It's Houlliers fault!!!

It's Houlliers fault!!!

I think you're mistaking us for the "ifithaddenbeenfer" brigade across the park.

That's strange because on another forum i'm reading about reds saying ifithaddenbeenfer all these draws and half of them could have been converted to wins they'd only be 4 points behind Arsenal

<doh>

The website

http://www.sonsofshankly.com/

Is now live, any criticisms/feedback, by all means let us know in this thread

And thanks to everyone who helped us come up with the logo, we have decided to go with Kitsers iconic design, but understand the work that other put into other also excellent designs.

It amazing what we can achieve if we work together

See you all tommorow

Cya tomorrow!

Cya tomorrow!

not if i see you first! :lol:

The ball is well and truely rolling.

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would this lot sack rafa?

Maybe.

I think I speak for all Evertonians when I say....K.R.I.O.C.

It would have been good if this sort of initiative had been brought forward when muzzyman was selling up, they may have even got a discount on the clubs value...old sentimental that he is an all!

Now they will have to pay a huge premium, take on big debts and still be lumbered with a manager so many got enraged about Hicks and Gillette touting someone else in order to 'protect their investment'! I am sure that Parry and Moores must have touted Rafa before giving Houlier the boot.. tis normal at even the best run clubs!

That's true Tony but it's not about the Yanks or Rafa. And the horse probably has well and truely bolted but there is still a function to be served.

Ownership of the club is the ultimate aim but it's an aim that realistically probably won't be realised. Apart from that there can be a lobby and pressure group and most importantly a community that will serve fans needs in a connected and constructive way.

Take a look at the website, the stated aims are there but bear in mind this is in it's infancy, constitution and focus is still to be decided.

http://www.sonsofshankly.com/

I'll do that toad. Nothing wrong with the aspiration, just think the timing is bloody awful (and probably a knee-jerk one at that too?)

The timing is awful but as Neil Atkinson says on the video all the years of moaning in the pubs, on the internet, letters to the Echo etc. have been brought into a union of likeminded people to try and address prompted by the current shenanagins.

all the years of moaning in the pubs, on the internet, letters to the Echo etc. have been brought into a union of likeminded people


I doubt it, there's 40,000 would be managers out there and even all the moaners can't agree on everything, half the moaners moan about the other half of the moaners.

rafa really has lived a charmed life in terms of the fans opinion of him. Its strange. On paper he's making so many mistakes, but whenever I think of him I get images of when he sat on the floor during the Chelsea CL semi penelty shoot-out cos he was so so bloody nervous. I instinctively like him, even if he's making a bloody pigs ear of things right.

Maybe like so many accuse us reds of being I think too much with my heart and not my head.

Once again you completely miss the point Keayman.

Explain how. Haven't the yanks just given rafa the money for torres, skirtel and will do for Masherano?

Forget that they've borrowed it, most do. Only be concerned about that if you're a shareholder and want great dividends, but as a fan, are any Real Madrid fans worried that it's the government who constantly bouys them up.

The yanks didn't sit Gerrard on the bench or wrap Torres up in cotton wool last saturday - that was Rafa.

I listen to a fair share of footy phone-ins and read footy forums - hardly any 2 fans seem to pick the same starting 11, the preferred manager they'd have or players to go for.

Torres and Skyrtel were bought out of OUR money.

The Americans are leveraging debt and not making capital investment.

Rafa's put a side out regardless of Gerrard and the INJURED Torres that created something like 30 goal chances which required 10 or more top class saves by the Barnsley goalkeeper while Rafa's big error cost us the game - the dope in our goal.

But that isn't the issue, it's not about the manager it's about having a football club for the kids of the city in the future, where they can access the games, avoid being used as cash cows and reconnect the football club, and if Evertonians go down this line and I'm sure they will, clubs with their communities.

Real Madrid are not a business they're a community and national asset, that's why the city authoritys and institutions work so willingly with them. Liverpool FC and every other club in the league are businesses.

I'm just looking forward to the derby now.

Remember you lot with you daft blow up tesco bags!?

Oh the joy we're going to have!

If all the ills of the current lfc (and I don't see that many tbh) are all down to the Yanks. Is that win against Inter down to them as well then as you can't pick and choose when it suits you? :|

My red friends....


Was Rafa vindicated in his plan to stick with Dirk Kuyt? I watched the game (well done Liverpool!) and he got into some dangerous positions. Also his delivery from the wings was pretty impressive....he got some good balls into the box.

Perhaps he's not an out and out striker and is best suited to playing just off a central striker to the sides.


Inter's defending was sublime at times last night considering. Im glad their fans were made to feel welcome in town as well from what i've heard. Well done reds.

I think Kuyt played much better in that position, and caused a lot more trouble. He can be a bit scrappy, and it was good to see him getting stuck in and causing a few problems.

He's definately not an out and out striker (the goal wouldn't have gone in without the deflection) but playing out on the wing and roaming in to the box behind the strikers could be a very useful role.

I also thought that Inter's defending was on the most part exceptional, almost an impeneterable wall and it stumped Liverpool who were unable to break on the counter (as there was nothing to counter) and could get their free flowing passing passed the solid defence. We needed Crouch to unsettle them and eventually the law of averages says that if we tried hard enough often enough we would get through, so it was nice to get the reward.

Let's hope that this victory sets the tone for the rest of the tournament. It's the one competition where, as a Liverpool fan, there's no team in the world I'm scared of facing.

My red friends....


Was Rafa vindicated in his plan to stick with Dirk Kuyt? I watched the game (well done Liverpool!) and he got into some dangerous positions. Also his delivery from the wings was pretty impressive....he got some good balls into the box.

Perhaps he's not an out and out striker and is best suited to playing just off a central striker to the sides.


Inter's defending was sublime at times last night considering. Im glad their fans were made to feel welcome in town as well from what i've heard. Well done reds.

From what i seen of last night (having been lucky enough to have gotten a ticket), they (Inter fans) were very well received. The atmos at the ground was superb between both sets of fans. I think they will reciprocate the friendliness in the 2nd leg. I know Italians on their own turf have a bad reputation in the last few years, which i think is well deserved. But i think this is more centred on Roma, Lazio, Juve, etc and not the Milanese two clubs. I mean who can forget the disgraceful treatment of Man United supporters in the Quarter Final last season at the Olympic Stadium in Rome?

Milan will be moody on account of the Juventus fanbase there.

I support 2 teams...it's bizarre that arguably as good a team as Europe has seen for the last 2 or 3 seasons finds it so hard to succeed in it's local league!

i always find it amazing and quite bizzaar how Juve are the biggest supported team in Italy (Italy's Man United if you like!). they average only about 10,000 in their league games with most seats costing under a tenner equivalent! mind the ground is in a freezing cold location outside Turin! Yeah AC Milan are a bit like Liverpool. Terrible in Serie A these days but great in Europe.

Sadly I can see half of our league ending up like that.

I've watched games on MOTD from JJB, Reebok, Riverside and other premiership grounds where there have been whole stands with hardly anyone in them.

Obviously the big clubs like Liverpool, Everton, Spurs, United, etc will always be relatively full....but the other half of the premiership seems to have empty seats everywhere....even in big profile games.

i always find it amazing and quite bizzaar how Juve are the biggest supported team in Italy (Italy's Man United if you like!). they average only about 10,000 in their league games with most seats costing under a tenner equivalent! mind the ground is in a freezing cold location outside Turin! Yeah AC Milan are a bit like Liverpool. Terrible in Serie A these days but great in Europe.

Juve are a funny one - i read somewhere that over half their match going fans come from outside Turin, mainly because of the stadium, which is now disused and awaiting redevelopment (they play at a 27k stadium now, olympico di turin). The stadium as you say in in the middle of the mountains, and the fans hated it because of the poor views and the athletics track. They were due to downsize it before the whole board resigned and they were relegated for the match fixing scandal. Usually they'd have an average turnout of around 30-35k, but with all the scandal, shite stadium, flogging off all their best players, playing in serie b for a season, and moving to another ground you can see why they get so low a turnout.

Sadly I can see half of our league ending up like that.

I've watched games on MOTD from JJB, Reebok, Riverside and other premiership grounds where there have been whole stands with hardly anyone in them.

Obviously the big clubs like Liverpool, Everton, Spurs, United, etc will always be relatively full....but the other half of the premiership seems to have empty seats everywhere....even in big profile games.

Thats the problem with all seater stadiums. They really highlight the empty seats! Bolton actually got a full house against Athletico Madrid last week (but only because those who had spent more than £20 in the club shop were given a free ticket to the match!) Sunderland and Boro too also have very reasonable prices to attract fans to the match. But all of these clubs play in out of town venues, that are just devoid of atmosphere (similar proposition to Everton's possible move to Kirkby). The stadiums are probably way too big for their respective fan bases. I mean Sunderland holds 47,000!

Everton always average about 36,000 each season no matter where they finish in the league. not bad for a stadium that only holds 40,000. They also must surely be 1 of the best 4 away supported teams in the league along with United, Liverpool and Newcastle. As you know in the recent Carling Cup semi final, Everton took 6,000 fans to stamford bridge (paying those ludacrously high London prices). For the return leg Chelsea sold only 1,800 tickets at Goodison. That speaks volumes.

I know i sound like a stuck record! But having been to all those new stadiums in the last few years (probably like yourself), they are just so devoid of atmosphere and are too sterile. Let alone being half empty most of the time. I really hope they develop Goodison (in particular the Park End) up to about 50,000 with the executive extras for the prawn sandwich brigade. The ground isnt as decrapit as some people make out. Sure i admit there are too many obstructive views. Thats the downside i suppose. But with neither Liverpool or Everton being flush for cash at the moment, i cant really see building new stadiums being a sensible idea.

Everton always average about 36,000 each season no matter where they finish in the league. not bad for a stadium that only holds 40,000.

Not to mention that hundreds of the seats in Goodison give horrendous restricted views.

We as a city are surely THE best football supporters in Britain, if not in Europe. Bearing in mind the cost of going to the game in comparrison to going to a match in the Bundeslige or Serie A and given the fact that this is an area of high unemployment and low wages and that neither of us has won a title in 20 years (and we in particular were absolute garbage in the whole of the 90's)....it's frankly remarkable.

Newcastle are a great footballing city, but it must be remembered that they are a one club city so gates of 50k sholdn't be too suprising.

I know i sound like a stuck record! But having been to all those new stadiums in the last few years (probably like yourself), they are just so devoid of atmosphere and are too sterile. Let alone being half empty most of the time.

You are so right. I really do fear for Everton FC if the kirkby move is forced upon us. Apart from up to a 3rd of season ticket holders living on the Wirral and there being a large walk up fanbase to Goodison from the surrounding area....I wonder how Everton expect the situation to be any different from the experiences of other out of town retail park stadiums???

I can see us loosing a great deal of our fanbase generation on generation.

with neither Liverpool or Everton being flush for cash at the moment, i cant really see building new stadiums being a sensible idea.

I don't think Bill Kenwright can afford Kirkby and so have hope that it won't happen.

Liverpool are a different kettle of fish in that they are richer, take in more profit and can probably generate more investment. They have a bigger brand, a bigger worldwide fanbase and better opportunities for comercial growth than Everton. I believe (and hope) that their stadium will come to fruition and that the initial heavy burden will be worth it when they recoup the massive proffit margins, as Arsenal have done with Emirates.

This is all sounding a bit too civil if you don't mind me saying chaps ;)

Back to the wind-ups. We know Matzaratti was sent off 3 times in his one Everton season which was nearly as bad as Slaven Bilic but come on - they were never two bookings, just sloppy and clumsy - never would he have been sent off in the present prem climate.

Also Viera was only protecting his face, if the ball hadn't hit his hands, it would have hit his face and gone out for a corner.

On another note. Aren't Everton just great :)

This is all sounding a bit too civil if you don't mind me saying chaps ;)

Back to the wind-ups. We know Matzaratti was sent off 3 times in his one Everton season which was nearly as bad as Slaven Bilic but come on - they were never two bookings, just sloppy and clumsy - never would he have been sent off in the present prem climate.

Also Viera was only protecting his face, if the ball hadn't hit his hands, it would have hit his face and gone out for a corner.

On another note. Aren't Everton just great :)

Agree with you on Matzaratti was a bit harsh, but i'm not complaining, but Viera performed a sly hand ball, oh protect my pretty face with my hands, he was looking through his hands at the ball, so he could position them.

Viera performed a sly hand ball


I counted at least 3 hand balls from Viera in about 10 minutes..Well done Liverpool and what a player Steven Gerrard is..world class..I hope you go on and win it...and thats from a lifelong Evertonian...Materatzi or whatever his name is..what go's around comes around..dirty cheatin' B******.

I hope you go on and win it...and thats from a lifelong Evertonian...


FUCK THAT!

:lol:

FUCK THAT!

:lol:

1st game with my Dad circa 64 or around that time when Alex Scott was on the wing..followed the blues ever since,every game in Big Bobs 30 goal season..Except the game he got his 30th..:gaah:

Yep..Too right I want them to win it..For My Lad..

I doubt it, there's 40,000 would be managers out there and even all the moaners can't agree on everything, half the moaners moan about the other half of the moaners.


:lol: Yes!

After all my moaning, I think Rafa (or any manager who is not an obvious instant catastrohy) should be given five years. Rafa needs to stop meddling and micro managing. When you think about it, the setting up of tight formations and micro managing every part of a game as though players are robots is for small clubs, with limited resources and players not blessed with god given talent. Big clubs don't need to do that, after all they are supposed to have the staff who can already play at the top of their game, all they need is inspiration. Drop the micro shit and Rafa will come good.

I've said that before - Rafa has an underdog mindset when in reality Liverpool are underdogs maybe half a dozen times a season...if that.

Tenerife and Valencia were underdogs, Liverpool most certainly are not.

Ged is a Livertonian or perhaps since his first love are the blues, an Everpudlian and there's nothing wrong in that, wish I could be maybe sometimes, I never leave the reds out when bigging the city up to outsiders, how could I but now i'm getting off as I think i'm going soft.

Ged is a Livertonian or perhaps since his first love are the blues, an Everpudlian and there's nothing wrong in that, wish I could be maybe sometimes, I never leave the reds out when bigging the city up to outsiders, how could I but now i'm getting off as I think i'm going soft.



Noooooooooo mate I'm an Evertonian Lad..I just cant work out G why some people just love winding people up over footy.

Liverpool were brilliant the other night mate..I find the truth easy to say matey...You of all people know me..dontcha..eh.

I've said that before - Rafa has an underdog mindset when in reality Liverpool are underdogs maybe half a dozen times a season...if that.

Tenerife and Valencia were underdogs, Liverpool most certainly are not.

I'd agree with that, which is evidenced by the fact that we always do well when we are the underdogs (perhaps explaining part of our recent success in the Champions League where we still manage to maintain a bit of an underdog spirit despite being statistically one of the favorites) but can loose to a team like Barnsley (plus numerous other examples).

It's this lack of consistency which makes it hard to perfom well enough in the Premiership, but makes us perform our best in the CL. Now if only we could keep that underdog spirit alive on the few times that we really are the underdog, but get a winning spirit when we're the favorites. I think we need to get Mourinho in to do some arrogance coaching! :lol:

Anyway..what d'yer think of me 2 little vids on the Images thread..eh...eh. :cheers:

Your vids are cracker Ged. If I spent my time praising each of your contributions my posts No. would be up to 300 by now (watch out Dave)

I like your Langton castle and Phil ones too - the out of the ordinary are the ones I go for which is why Daves are great too, and Tom, Kenny Rouge and all them.

It's only banter on the footy mate, where would we be without it.

Your vids are cracker Ged. If I spent my time praising each of your contributions my posts No. would be up to 300 by now (watch out Dave)

I like your Langton castle and Phil ones too - the out of the ordinary are the ones I go for which is why Daves are great too, and Tom, Kenny Rouge and all them.

It's only banter on the footy mate, where would we be without it.


Ta G..I know its only a wind up mate :okay:,you should see me and me lad when 1 or the other are playing on the box and we're having a little keg or 3 of DG together..F'n Iron girder...:cheers:

Extended video highlights: Liverpool 2 - 0 Internazionale

http://www.liverpoolpies.tv/2008/02/video_vault_extended_video_hig.html

I've said that before - Rafa has an underdog mindset when in reality Liverpool are underdogs maybe half a dozen times a season...if that.

Tenerife and Valencia were underdogs, Liverpool most certainly are not.

Exactly!

looks like movement - Hicks & Gillett are allowing DIC to conduct due diligence on the club (again). I'm keeping my fingers crossed but not getting my hopes up too much after last time.


Liverpool's American owners set to sell
George Gillett and Tom Hicks
Oliver Kay

Tom Hicks and George Gillett Jr, Liverpool’s American owners, are preparing to signal the beginning of the end of their regime at Anfield by granting Dubai International Capital (DIC) permission to examine the club’s accounts with a view to making an official takeover bid next month.

Hicks has consistently claimed that he has no intention of selling his 50 per cent stake in the club, but, while he plans to retain some of his shares and some of his influence at Anfield for the immediate future, face-to-face discussions with DIC officials in Dubai and, more significantly, London last week have brought a deal closer.

Although a final agreement is understood to be some weeks away, with the Americans eager to maximise their profits after a turbulent 12 months in control, sources in the United States have indicated that they are ready to demonstrate their willingness to sell by granting a period of due diligence to DIC, the private-equity investment arm of the Dubai Government.

Gillett, whose involvement with the club is now minimal, is expected to be the first to sell his 50 per cent stake, possibly by the middle of next month. Hicks is likely to sell only part of his stake initially, leaving DIC in majority control of the club but retaining some interest and his place on the board, at least in the short term.
Related Links

* Hicks puts block on quick sale at Liverpool

* Hicks unable to quell whispers

Hicks’s abrasive manner means that he is regarded as the most likely obstacle to any deal being completed, but discussions are said to be progressing “sensibly and professionally”, albeit slowly. Although Hicks could, in theory, buy Gillett’s stake in order to strengthen his own bargaining position, that is thought to be unlikely.

For now, no price has been agreed between DIC and either of the co-chairmen. The Americans, whose initial takeover just over 12 months ago was valued at £218.9 million, now put the club’s worth at more than £400 million, but £350 million of that figure would be swallowed by the debts incurred as a result of their recent refinancing deal. DIC would be reluctant to meet that valuation if, as remains the case, Liverpool are in danger of missing out on qualification for next season’s Champions League and the associated riches.

DIC’s plans for Liverpool are not yet clear beyond its eagerness to conduct a wide-ranging review of all departments of the club, but its arrival would be greeted enthusiastically by many supporters.

Welcomed by some as saviours in February last year, the Americans have attracted hostility not only by taking the club into debt — something that they pledged they would not do — but also by their treatment of Rafael Benítez, the manager, having held talks with Jürgen Klinsmann, the former Germany coach, about replacing him. There was also the embarrassment over their grandiose designs for a new stadium, which were unveiled amid fanfare in July only to be dropped owing to spiralling costs less than five months later.

Tom Hicks Jr, who was invited to join his father on the board, was confronted angrily by some supporters when he visited a pub near Anfield on Saturday. He claimed yesterday that he “had several constructive conversations” during his visit and that he hoped to “follow up with them next time I am in Liverpool”.

By contrast, Gillett’s son, Foster, who was initially dispatched to Merseyside to liaise between Benítez and the owners, has spent the past month in Montreal, apparently with no plans to return. Benítez has attempted to build bridges with Hicks in the meantime, but now it seems that power at Anfield is about to be transferred to Dubai.

I recently heared on the radio an ex-Liverpool player who is now an advisor to H&G say they are in for the long term, no intention of selling up.

Don't believe anything a businessman says.

I think when they start having advisors tell you things, you know the opposite will happen.


Anyone hear the latest Groundshare idea on Radio Merseyside, sounded like an April fools joke, 80K stadium, 2 x L shaped pavillions joined together one owned by each club with suitable logos, each logo to be neutral colour so as not to offend other, white seats with red or blue lights shon on them, going on about shared identity and how both clubs are closely linked.

Sounded like a merger to me Liverton or Everpool F.C.

I recently heared on the radio an ex-Liverpool player who is now an advisor to H&G say they are in for the long term, no intention of selling up.

Don't believe anything a businessman says.

I think when they start having advisors tell you things, you know the opposite will happen.


Anyone hear the latest Groundshare idea on Radio Merseyside, sounded like an April fools joke, 80K stadium, 2 x L shaped pavillions joined together one owned by each club with suitable logos, each logo to be neutral colour so as not to offend other, white seats with red or blue lights shon on them, going on about shared identity and how both clubs are closely linked.

Sounded like a merger to me Liverton or Everpool F.C.

Blasphemy! :lol:

It certainly appears that this news is confirmation of the rumblings that DIC are closing in on a deal.

As for the groundshare, what bollocks. Why do BBC Merseyside give coverage to tat like this and yet chose to ignore relvent issues?

Agree totally Toad. I heard it last night and it was repeated 3 times by David Backhouse,the architect behind this: "It has to be looked at" it's been looked at and the fans don't want it. 3 Echo polls with thousands voting,75% against.More ominous though is i'm pretty sure the Dubai crowd are in favour!

I recently heared on the radio an ex-Liverpool player who is now an advisor to H&G say they are in for the long term, no intention of selling up.

Who was the "ex-Liverpool player?" that you heared on the radio? Probably a typo, but you didn't name him in your post. We've all cocked up posting sometimes. Name him please:)

Who was the "ex-Liverpool player?" that you heared on the radio? Probably a typo, but you didn't name him in your post. We've all cocked up posting sometimes. Name him please:)

Didn't hear it personally but my mate was talking about Jimmy Melia who apparently is based in Dallas or thereabouts. It may well have been him.

I don't know what the Dubai stance is but following all this logic of paying for a stadium then surely the answer lies in not owning one which I don't believe is valid.

Hicks and Gillet are billy bullshitters.

Didn't hear it personally but my mate was talking about Jimmy Melia who apparently is based in Dallas or thereabouts. It may well have been him.
So according to your mate, but you didn't hear it personally, it was an ex Liverpool player transferred in 1964.
Thanks.

So according to your mate, but you didn't hear it personally, it was an ex Liverpool player transferred in 1964.
Thanks.

Just read on the Liverpool Way forum and it confirms that he was on Terrace Talk on Radio City saying they're in for the long haul.

Remember when Stevie G-La wanted to get off to Chelsea and was "persuaded" otherwise.

Could not one of the local Tony Sopranos not have a word in Hicks' ear?

I mean his lad was in the Sandon last weekend, they're not hard to get to!

Didn't hear it personally but my mate was talking about Jimmy Melia who apparently is based in Dallas or thereabouts. It may well have been him.


Yes that's the one, and i should maybe make an ammendment that he is probably a spokesman for only Hicks.

Well done today liverpool.

Rafa van Rijn
IAtWfs63twQ

well according to The Times tonight (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article3479591.ece), DIC have already bid £400 million for the club and the offer hasn't been knocked back yet.

well according to The Times tonight (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article3479591.ece), DIC have already bid £400 million for the club and the offer hasn't been knocked back yet.

Granada are reporting it has now.

Granada are reporting it has now.

:(

It's in the end game, Hicks and Gillet struggled to refinance at £350 million so how is Hicks going to finance £225 million to buy out Gillet? If we've learned one thing about Hicks it's that he's a tough, no nonsense lying cunt. If he had a few bob and was philanthropic he'd be great.

Tom Cannon is full of shit as well, how do the BBC keep on getting had off by him?

I fear that Liverpool are heading for deep trouble (yes....fear. I am a scouser first and foremost and despite being a blue take no pleasure in one of the city's clubs having a wrecking ball taken to it).

I fear he's going to take out further loans to buy out Gillette, lumping this on the club. I dread to think what the interest rates will be and what the overall debt would be on that.

As for Tom Cannon. What a bellend. I've lost count of the amount of times Tom Cannon has been toe-cringingly wrong on a great number of subjects to do with football. Some of the laughable comments he's come out with have been shocking.

I believe Sky Sports News have stopped using him and his little 'insights'.

Some of Cannons gems....

"Everton & Liverpool will Groundshare at the docks" - Shortly before news broke that both clubs had told the council/nwda "No chance!" and during a time when Liverpool where finalising plans for Stanley park.

"Man Utd's loss at Benfica will cost them 50 million in sponsorship" - Shortly before news broke that they'd brokered the biggest shirt sponsorship in the history of the game.

"The Glazers would never take over at Old Trafford: It is one thing for Roman Abramowich to buy Chelsea, it is quite another to try and get hold of Manchester United"


In short....a complete dickhead.

Hicks and Gillet have had to put their own security up for around £220 million of the debt on 'Kop Football' plus a few bob of their own. They struggled to do that as a shared risk, how will Hicks raise a further £225 million from loans?

the only way the debt could be directly put on the club is against future incomes, bigger stadium...until that is sorted out then LFC won't be acceptable risk for lenders.

Hicks is playing the end game, he's getting as much as he can out before he walks.

I wish I had a face as hard as his, £50million profit for doing fuck all...

how will Hicks raise a further £225 million from loans?




George Bush will have plenty of time on his hands soon & will be looking for a plaything.

; )

Just winding you's up my red friends, although him and Hicks did run a baseball team together back in the day didnt they???

Hicks is playing the end game, he's getting as much as he can out before he walks.

I wish I had a face as hard as his, £50million profit for doing fuck all...


Not too disimilar to agent Johnson during his tenure as Everton owner. Though thankfully for the Blues he got his eye wiped and didnt walk away with much profit.

Not before recieving death threats, having to have police escorts out fo some games and numerous mass protests outside & inside the ground though.

As I said earlier one of the local gangsters wants to have a word. The same ones who shit gerrard up.

Johnson was unfortunate is some sense that his proper businesses hit trouble.

I know it's been mentioned before but how else may a DIC involvement hit the city? Rich foreign investors, with money to invest rather than capital leverage, in a port city on the edge of europe with connection to the Americas, Asia and Africa?

I
I fear he's going to take out further loans to buy out Gillette, lumping this on the club. I dread to think what the interest rates will be and what the overall debt would be on that.

As for Tom Cannon. What a bellend. I've lost count of the amount of times Tom Cannon has been toe-cringingly wrong on a great number of subjects to do with football. Some of the laughable comments he's come out with have been shocking.

I believe Sky Sports News have stopped using him and his little 'insights'.

agree about Hicks, he just sees the potential of Liverpool once the stadium is built.....problem being he hasn't got the money to make the potential into reality in the mean time he has plunged us into unbelievable debt, debt to buy us in the first place(nice of him) debt to buy new players, debt to pay for lawyers and numerous plans of a stadium, he'll put debt on us if he buys gillett out oh and thats not forgetting the debt that will happen just to fund the stadium ,never mind the interest the refinancing every few months.....if Liverpool don't get the champions league fourth place under Hicks then it threatens the clubs future like it did Leeds United.

The biggest plus point of DIC is that if Liverpool have a couple of bad season they can bail us out, Hicks can't and he can just ride off like a cowboy with a bag of money and no worries.....all for the sake of a risk and potential.

As for Cannon ...what a big bag of blabbering shite he is....got all his qualifications from a university I've never heard of an embarassment to evertonians:lol:

does Hicks have to buy the whole of Gillett's share to gain control? I'd have thought he would only need to buy a portion, even as small as 1%, at any premium to get control. IF this is the case, I'm assuming Gillett just doesn't want to sell any of his stake to Hicks.

Why would Gillett want to be lumbered with 48/49% of something he has no control over unless he knew Hicks could turn it around fast and make big money?

It's a farce, so much for due diligence eh...Rick Parry and the clubs merchant bank expert advisers should be put in front of a firing squad when the dust settles.

Why would Gillett want to be lumbered with 48/49% of something he has no control over unless he knew Hicks could turn it around fast and make big money?

It's a farce, so much for due diligence eh...Rick Parry and the clubs merchant bank expert advisers should be put in front of a firing squad when the dust settles.

good point!

You guys are looking at this all wrong.

Multi millionaire mega successfull businessmen in the field of sports and oil do NOT think over a 2-5 year plan. They consider their investments in 10 and 20 year plans.

This is how the rich stay rich. Growth over time.

Contrary to what people think a 20-30 million pound profit from Liverpool would be dissapointing in the extreme. It may be a fotrune to us but these are guys used to buying and selling sports franchises and making an absolute fortune. Hundreds of millions of dollars changing hands. They sign baseball players on 125 million dollar deals.

£20 mill is NOTHING to them.


Why would a quick exit and a 20 mill profit each be disappointing for them???

....because the premiership's growth over the past 10 years has been phenomenal. The money involved has been SICK. The success is unreal with 4 EPL clubs still in the Champions League and 4 in the Uefa cup.

Add to this the fact that there's no doubt of the games world wide apeal with Liverpool holding an estimated 30 million fans world wide (I suspect this is an understatement). There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that there will be gamnes abroad and that they will make a FORTUNE from travelling.

There is also the small outside possibility of a G14 superleague at some point in the future which liverpool would be part of.


Then there is the marketing of Liverpool FC itself and it's comercial operations. Both of which Hicks was shocked to see the state of when he came in. LFC should and could (with an American system in place) become one of the biggest brands in the world. Easily the biggest brand in football. The potential to increas significantly profit made from comercial operations is one of the reasons Hicks wants the club. It is incredibly underutilised at present.

....why do you think the Dubai governments investment arm is DESPERATE to get the club!? What an advert for Dubai owning a EPL club and branding it with Dubai all over the show would be!

As the oil starts to run out, the tourism trade will be vital.


Then theres the stadium. Arsenal are due to hand over £70 million war chest to Wenger for the first year of a 60,000 seat stadium.

Liverpool's will hold an additional 11,000 and Anfield is a much bigger propesct for naming rights. I dread to think how much they could rake in from "THIS IS ANFIELD....HOME OF THE PEPSI COLA ARENA!". I imagine it would smash all sponsorship deals and becoming the biggest grossing deal in footballing history.

WHY ELSE DO YOU BELIEVE DUBIA INVESTMENT ARM IS SO DESPERATE TO EGT THAT BRAND!?


The money they could give to the new manager (cos I GUARANTEE Rafa will be gone very soon - possibly as soon as Hicks wins the power struggle)....from the money they make on the stadium and utilising the full power of the marketing of LIVERPOOL FOOTBALL CLUB will be unreal.


....of course all this is taking a rosy optimistic, best case senario.

But you can see why there is a scramble for control and ownership of that club.

In 20 years time the potential proffits are scary to think about.

Don't forget that Hicks COULD sell one of his other franchises to fund a full takeover.

Don't forget that Hicks COULD sell one of his other franchises to fund a full takeover.

I'm not 100% but I dont think the banks would like that; I'm sure he has secured his portion of Kop Holdings loan on some of his own assets. Also, I think if he sells them off piecemeal then he would struggle even more to borrow further funds for the stadium, as both the club and the holding company are already "spoken for" to an extent with the current refinancing loans which need sorting out again in less than 18 months.

ITV sells non-core Liverpool fc.tv stake

http://www.bradinsight.com/news.asp?siteid=4&id=75966

Broadcaster sells its non-core asset back to Liverpool FC for 15.8m

ITV has sold its 50% share in Liverpool football club's website for £15.8m to the club as part of the broadcaster's ongoing disposal of its non-core assets.

The initial payment for Liverpoolfc.tv will be £10.5m on completion of the deal and a further balance of £5.25m is due in December 2008. The deal also includes repayment of approximately £3.5m of debt.

The Liverpoolfc.tv transaction is part of ITV's programme of disposing of non-core assets, which has raised over £600m since the creation of a single ITV from the merger of Carlton and Granada in 2004.

Among the assets disposed of were 10% of Liverpool FC itself for £17.4m early last year and a one-third stake in Manchester United's TV channel MUTV late last year. ITV still owns 5% of Arsenal FC.

His armband proved he was a red - Torres, Torres
You'll never walk alone it said - Torres, Torres

We bought the lad from sunny Spain
He gets the ball he scores again

Fer-nan-do Torres Liverpool's number 9.

Well done again Liverpool.

Tom Hicks 'set to move on Dubai'

A DEAL for Dubai International Capital to buy George Gillett’s Liverpool stake is imminent, it has been claimed.

Sources close to DIC today revealed Tom Hicks is ready to drop his resistance to George Gillett selling his stake in Liverpool Football Club to DIC.

An offer from DIC for Gillett’s shares remains on the table and should the American accept he would walk away from Anfield with a profit of around £40m.

Gillett is believed to want more and DIC remain insistent they will not be raising their offer but with talks still going on between the two parties it is thought a deal could be reached within days.

Hicks’ reluctance to enter into any sort of partnership with DIC is well known and on several occasions he has spoken of his willingness to use a veto to block any such deal.


But he has been in touch with DIC in the last 24 hours to tell them he will not stand in their way if they can agree a price with Gillett. He has also told DIC he is willing to enter into talks with them at the earliest possible opportunity to discuss the future of the club.


DIC’s growing confidence that a deal can and will be done saw them dispatch a representative to Anfield for last night’s Premier League game against West Ham.


The representative met with members of various fans group in a bid to gauge their opinion about the club and the best way forward for it.


He also witnessed first hand the latest protest by fans against the current owners with a demonstration which lasted the full 15 minutes of the half-time interval.


The Spirit of Shankly has already indicated it is ready to offer DIC a cautious welcome and would be prepared to enter into a dialogue with them.

The Spirit of Shankly has already indicated it is ready to offer DIC a cautious welcome and would be prepared to enter into a dialogue with them.

hahaha!

Thats good of them.

Noel White and Graham Souness.. look no further!

Ha ha! Barnsley have just beaten the Chelsea johnnies! Which is nice.

:banana::banana::banana:

DIC clinch £170m stake in Liverpool

Daily Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2008/03/10/sfnliv210.xml


Liverpool's joint owner, George Gillett, has agreed to sell 49 per cent of the club to Dubai International Capital in a deal worth up to £170 million, it was claimed yesterday.

According to Amanda Staveley, head of PCP Capital Partners, the private equity firm handling negotiations on behalf of DIC, Gillett agreed the deal in principle late on Friday.

"The legal documents have yet to be signed, but we're really pleased," said Staveley. "Of course we want to own Liverpool outright but this large stake is a great start."

DIC now need to agree on a partnership with Gillett's co-chairman and fellow American, Tom Hicks, who has made it clear he has no intention of giving up his control of Anfield.

Despite Hicks' angry attack on Staveley on Saturday, in which he accused the financier of leaking private correspondence to this newspaper, he has not ruled out the possibility of a key meeting with DIC executives in Dubai today.

His son, Mack, and two senior Hicks Holdings executives, Casey Shilts and Roy Bailey, had already scheduled unrelated meetings in Dubai this week to discuss a property deal and both DIC and a spokesman for Hicks confirmed last night that talks on the future of Liverpool were likely to take place over the next few days.

According to the deal, agreed in outline last week, Hicks would take one per cent off Gillett to give him a majority holding of 51 per cent. DIC would then control the other 49 per cent.

Hicks ends talks with Dubai group

Liverpool co-owner Tom Hicks has ended negotiations with Dubai International Capital (DIC) over acquiring a 49% stake in the club.
DIC had earlier announced it was in advanced talks to buy a stake in the Anfield side.

But in a statement on the Liverpool website, Hicks said: "I have decided to terminate further discussions with DIC.

"I and my colleagues will continue to explore a number of other options with regard to the ownership of the club."

Talks had been taking place between DIC and Hicks about how a joint relationship would work.

George Gillett, Hicks' co-owner, is understood to have agreed in principle to sell 49% of his 50% stake to DIC, and the other 1% to Hicks to give the Texan a controlling interest.


This needs to be ended once and for all and it really doesn't look to me that it's going to happen anytime soon

DIC have accepted that Hicks, co-owner of Kop Football (Holdings) Limited, will not sell his share in Liverpool in the near future, but would insist on a clause giving them first refusal to buy his stake.

Hicks added: "DIC made it clear that if they invested in the club, they would want it to be managed by committee.

"Based on my 13 years of successful experience as an owner of professional sports teams, and based in particular on the situation at Liverpool Football Club over the past year, it is clear to me that such a committee approach would not be in the best interest of Kop, of the club or of the club's loyal and passionate supporters."

Hicks and fellow American Gillett took control in a deal worth £218.9m in February 2007. But their own relationship has broken down and the pair - Hicks in particular - have been the target for strong criticism from supporters.

It is believed Gillett is willing to sell but the situation is further complicated by an agreement between him and Hicks that means one cannot sell his share without the agreement of the other.

Back to square one.

Moores must find it harder and harder to live with himself as this sorry saga goes on.
If only he'd sold to DIC in the first place instead of holding out for a few more bucks for himself from Hicks.

I joked years ago that Moores junior was a mole planted by Everton when the family fortune was firmly behind the Blues. Too many Le Carre novels. :banana:


Recent events are proving stranger than fiction.......

Rafa is freezing out Alonso, it seems for no good reason other than failure to give sycophantic support.... is this a character flaw in Rafa? Was it the same that drove out Pacco? I don't know!



Alonso is one of just a few genuinely world class players at the club!

I joked years ago that Moores junior was a mole planted by Everton when the family fortune was firmly behind the Blues. Too many Le Carre novels. :banana:


Recent events are proving stranger than fiction.......


Pity they got in first with agent Johnson though :ohno:

This whole sorry saga has now reached a point where i cant be bothered any more,as a frequent lurker on many libpool forums i now avoid the subject like the plague.
WHAT A FECKIN MESS:bash:

Rafa is freezing out Alonso, it seems for no good reason other than failure to give sycophantic support.... is this a character flaw in Rafa? Was it the same that drove out Pacco? I don't know!



Alonso is one of just a few genuinely world class players at the club!

That might have been arguable a few weeks back Tony but Alonso has been playing consistently in the last 5 games in the new system which seems to be working well. Unfortunately he has frozen himself out tonight to be at the birth of his child.

He is showing glimpses of his true class at present and will be badly missed tonight.

I thought Alonso's Mrs was having a bin lid.

that's the reason for the latest fall out. Alonso wanted to stay and only join if the birth had gone OK (no idea what has actually happened there) Rafa had a strop and went to the press, rather than agreeing to Alonso's request, or dropping him completely from the frame straight away.

What else could he say?

"Where's Xabi?"

"er dunno...not telling you...I'm concentrating on coaching my team.."

:lol:

43 years,revenge is sweet.

great result eh chaps

well played

great result eh chaps

well played

Nice one.

Ruined somewhat by the ref. He had a good first half but second half made a mockery of the game and a fool of himself. Didn't half settle my nerves though. :cheers:

i hope we get arsenal, united or chelsea in the quarters. i would fancy beating any of them in the european cup (maybe not in the league! :lol:).

Torres' Goal v. Inter

PHE6xyy1t2o

^^ :D

Had to turn off last nights post match analysis from Hairyhands Keys, Rednapp and Souness, the way they were going on you'd have thought we'd lost. Think I'd rather have watched the game & analysis in French, Chinese or Arabic, they put Sky to shame, much more exciting. :ohno:

Torres' goal was probably one of the goals of the season for me. The turn and the the control when he pulled the trigger was sublime.

^^ :D

Had to turn off last nights post match analysis from Hairyhands Keys, Rednapp and Souness, the way they were going on you'd have thought we'd lost. Think I'd rather have watched the game & analysis in French, Chinese or Arabic, they put Sky to shame, much more exciting. :ohno:

I think that Sky's coverage of Istanbul though was much better than ITV's or LFC TV. The post win coverage (on field, lap of honour/YNWA part) was fantastic, as was Phil Thompson's sentiments.. and timing!

Andy Gray is a tit, he's always been a tit but last night he was an uber tit.

I'd settle for (not be satisfied with neccessarily) another EC Final, and to be a lot closer to Arsenal, Utd and Chelsea than we are now.

It's been done to death since the weekend, but the reality is that if you could imagine us doing what we haven't done for years, which is to beat Utd and Arsenal, at theirs, in the league- then the likelihood is, given that the other Big 4 games nearly always end in a draw, Arsenal, Utd and Chelsea would very probably drop 7,7, an 4 points in relation to us respectively- in which case, things get interesting.

If we treat those two games like we treat the second leg of CL matches, then you might just be able to imagine the above...

I thought Inter -in between bouts of defensive howlers- looked quite formidable last night (until they lost the player), and, in reality, it was a tie which could've gone either way with a bit of finishing on their side and without Reina's 3 fantastic saves on ours.

As you Gray's a tit, but then, all pundits are tits really- they're paid (and retained) to be sensationalist and dumb, rather than realistic and fair.

Today, you have Henry Winter saying how Inter and Milan wouldn't finsh higher than mid-table in the Prem, whilst Real would get relegated.

That's bollocks.

The fact is it was an odd tie- after the first 20 where were losing the midfield we adapted and played very well. I still they, Inter, a better side than us, to be honest, but they didn't do it. Football...

Other than stating the fact that the Inter player should not have been sent off, which any neutral or sane minded person would agree with, I cannot see why you had a problem with Gray???

The ref was a joke that night....equally bad for both teams, but the sending off was a shocking decision.

Other than stating the fact that the Inter player should not have been sent off, which any neutral or sane minded person would agree with, I cannot see why you had a problem with Gray???

The ref was a joke that night....equally bad for both teams, but the sending off was a shocking decision.

we got lucky with the sendings off in both legs. i dont think either players should have been sent off. but the books are balanced by the luck Inter had in both the legs of the 65 semi final! just ask my arl fella! ;)

I think that Sky's coverage of Istanbul though was much better than ITV's or LFC TV. The post win coverage (on field, lap of honour/YNWA part) was fantastic, as was Phil Thompson's sentiments.. and timing!

i sky plussed both the coverage of sky and bbc1 that night! phil thompsons reactions were fantastic in front of ex AC Milan's Gianluca Vialla and Butch Wilkins! the bbc's coverage made equally fantastic viewing. alan hansen was jumping for joy in the studio, banging the windows, etc his colleague Preston born - Mark Lawrenson sat there completely non-plussed! considering he used to play for Liverpool, his lack of emotion was staggering. think he must have been a Man United fan growing up! :ohno:

I think that Sky's coverage of Istanbul though was much better than ITV's or LFC TV. The post win coverage (on field, lap of honour/YNWA part) was fantastic, as was Phil Thompson's sentiments.. and timing!

i sky plussed both the coverage of sky and bbc1 that night! Phil Thompsons reactions were fantastic in front of ex AC Milan's Gianluca Vialla and Butch Wilkins! the bbc's coverage made equally fantastic viewing. Alan Hansen was jumping for joy in the studio, banging the windows, etc his colleague Preston born - Mark Lawrenson sat there completely non-plussed! considering he used to play for Liverpool, his lack of emotion was staggering. think he must have been a Man United fan growing up! :ohno:

Other than stating the fact that the Inter player should not have been sent off, which any neutral or sane minded person would agree with, I cannot see why you had a problem with Gray???

The ref was a joke that night....equally bad for both teams, but the sending off was a shocking decision.

I didn't hear any English commentary. I was watching in an Italian bar with Italian commentary.

Point is, Andy Gray's always a tit.

I didn't hear any English commentary. I was watching in an Italian bar with Italian commentary.

Point is, Andy Gray's always a tit.

was it less biased than Andy Gray?

was it less biased than Andy Gray?

Well it would surely be wouldn't it?

My favourite bit was, with about 10 minutes to go, Paolo Rossi saying "Steven Gerrard. Mama mia."

I think he's a fan.

fantastic picture in La Gazzetta dello Sport :lol:

http://www.gazzetta.it/Fotogallery/Tagliate/2008/03_Marzo/11/ITALY/10.JPG

RIXKKoBnnYc&NR=1

His armband proved he was a red
Torres Torres
you'll never walk alone it said
Torres Torres

We bought the lad from sunny spain
He gets the ball and scores again
Fernando torres
Liverpools number nine

and..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUjRQfJ3f74&feature=related

i absolutely fucking love this song..... awesome !

and..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUjRQfJ3f74&feature=related

i absolutely fucking love this song..... awesome !

Certainly much more lyrical than Man United's "Take me home...United road!" :lol:

Fernando Torres

qGmxWT2AP8g&eurl

Nice video of Kenny, Souness, Lee with Torres etc, also some nice views of the city!(click here). Enjoy! (it's pinched from RAWK)

and..

DUjRQfJ3f74

i absolutely fucking love this song..... awesome !

Like that vid pool08

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR8EU8UaHZo
Sorry, last one did not work. Try the link above.

http://www.girlstalksports.com/images/userimage/gary.neville.jpg

+

http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Eraserhead-Poster-C10132877.jpeg

+

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/3277294.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=2C48553CC6AAB74C94D74B7F4C45EF34A55A1E4F32AD3138

=

http://www.gazzetta.it/Fotogallery/Tagliate/2008/03_Marzo/11/ITALY/10.JPG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR8EU8UaHZo
Sorry, last one did not work. Try the link above.

fantastic interview :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR8EU8UaHZo
Sorry, last one did not work. Try the link above.

Have to admit that I didn't watch this after the first attempt didn't work - great post though:


Fernando Torres - Interviewed by Michael Robinson 1/3

yR8EU8UaHZo


Fernando Torres - Interviewed by Michael Robinson 2/3

tto7bcWUy3k&feature=related


Fernando Torres - Interviewed by Michael Robinson 3/3

NQtH4Gh79Zk&feature=related

fantastic. keep them coming :cheers:

Souness is such a prick.

I wish he'd hibernate or something so I can focus on the football general, the greatest midfielder I've ever seen.

On the other hand Michael robinson is 10 times the pundit than he was a footballer!

THERE'S ONLY FATTY ROBBO!

You watch those, esp the last part (3/3) and it just makes u a tad upset that we can't be were we once were

i never had the chance to see KD, Souness, and the rest playing, i am not far off 18 so in my younger years although Rush was playing for us, i didnt appreciate football

regardless of what happens at Old Trafford, and no matter how happy we will be if we get all 3 points, we will still not have been close enough to win it. Say we finish 8 points behind who ever wins the league this year, you have to look at Birmingham at home, Chelsea at home, Wigan, and im sure there are a few other games

We should have won, and winning them would mean number 19 this season

As Souness and Torres said, you may feel a tad tired but players want to play

RB has found a winning combination in the last 7 games or so, but it is too late

Last years heartbrake was hard to take in Athens, i hope i get to see a Titan Airways 757 landing at JLA in May, with number 6

I hope.

You watch those, esp the last part (3/3) and it just makes u a tad upset that we can't be were we once were

i never had the chance to see KD, Souness, and the rest playing, i am not far off 18 so in my younger years although Rush was playing for us, i didnt appreciate football

regardless of what happens at Old Trafford, and no matter how happy we will be if we get all 3 points, we will still not have been close enough to win it. Say we finish 8 points behind who ever wins the league this year, you have to look at Birmingham at home, Chelsea at home, Wigan, and im sure there are a few other games

We should have won, and winning them would mean number 19 this season

As Souness and Torres said, you may feel a tad tired but players want to play

RB has found a winning combination in the last 7 games or so, but it is too late

Last years heartbrake was hard to take in Athens, i hope i get to see a Titan Airways 757 landing at JLA in May, with number 6

I hope.



how we managed to lose that final is a mystery to me. if ever a team was there for the taking it was Milan that night. :ohno:

Not to be for us today, but there is always Moscow in May.

:ohno:

Not to be for us today, but there is always Moscow in May.

:ohno:

Outclassed again unfortunately.

Outclassed again unfortunately.

I was worried that might have happened. Oh well! 't is only a game.

Outclassed again unfortunately.

No we weren't. We had lost that game before it started. Mascherano would have been bossing the midfield had he not been booked in the first 5 minutes. Why did he get booked? Was it a shocking challenge? no. Was it nasty? No. why then? Because beetroot face has been going on about the referee all week. Liverpool players have to play a different game when playing against Man U. Its usually a game of last minute phantom free kicks, weird refereeing decision, weird american football style blocking and off side laws being bent. What infuriates me is how that cheating shitbag ferguson can get away with influencing the referee so obviously every time we play them. It becoming ridiculous. This is what happens before the game:-


talk about the referee in the press
talk about the referee in the press
talk about the referee in the press
talk about the referee in the press
talk about the referee in the press
talk about the referee in the press
talk about the referee in the press
talk about the referee in the press
talk about the referee in the press
talk about the referee in the press


Come the game we can't even tackle their players, the two sides are playing under a different set of rules. The referee today was shocking. Torres gets seven shades of shit kicked out of him and then gets booked for asking why they're allowed to get away with that whilst mascherano can't even make an honest challenge. The referee, linesmen and even the media coverage last time we played them were shocking - Tevez quite clearly offside at anfield, there was only the man on the post, he was behind the goalkeeper so he is offside. Conveniently forgotten, "an attacking player is deemed offside if he is ahead of the ball and the second last defender". The rules quite clearly dont apply to this shower of shit houses. The amount of times I've seen Manure players surrounding and screaming at the referee about freekicks, a tactic ferguson practically invented etc.., and mascherano gets sent off for asking why? Just basic cheating if you ask me. Great Manager - i don't think so. Cheating shitbag - most definately.

I dread the day when his cheating shitbag antics start to work in european competition.

No we weren't. We had lost that game before it started. Mascherano would have been bossing the midfield had he not been booked in the first 5 minutes. Why did he get booked? Was it a shocking challenge? no. Was it nasty? No. why then? Because beetroot face has been going on about the referee all week. Liverpool players have to play a different game when playing against Man U. Its usually a game of last minute phantom free kicks, weird refereeing decision, weird american football style blocking and off side laws being bent. What infuriates me is how that cheating shitbag ferguson can get away with influencing the referee so obviously every time we play them. It becoming ridiculous. This is what happens before the game:-


talk about the referee in the press
talk about the referee in the press
talk about the referee in the press
talk about the referee in the press
talk about the referee in the press
talk about the referee in the press
talk about the referee in the press
talk about the referee in the press
talk about the referee in the press
talk about the referee in the press


Come the game we can't even tackle their players, the two sides are playing under a different set of rules. The referee today was shocking. Torres gets seven shades of shit kicked out of him and then gets booked for asking why they're allowed to get away with that whilst mascherano can't even make an honest challenge. The referee, linesmen and even the media coverage last time we played them were shocking - Tevez quite clearly offside at anfield, there was only the man on the post, he was behind the goalkeeper so he is offside. Conveniently forgotten, "an attacking player is deemed offside if he is ahead of the ball and the second last defender". The rules quite clearly dont apply to this shower of shit houses. The amount of times I've seen Manure players surrounding and screaming at the referee about freekicks, a tactic ferguson practically invented etc.., and mascherano gets sent off for asking why? Just basic cheating if you ask me. Great Manager - i don't think so. Cheating shitbag - most definately.

I dread the day when his cheating shitbag antics start to work in european competition.


Beetroot face...:lol::lol::lol::lol:..brilliant yosh.

Oh stop moaning.

He runs 20 yards to get involved in something that has sod all to do with him and he's on a yellow AND just watched his mate get booked for challanging the ref. Its about time a Referee stood up to players contesting every single decision. It wasnt the first time he mouthed off at the Ref and had already committed 2 or 3 fouls after he had been booked.

I say this not as a "bitter blue" but as a neutral who is sick of the way the game is going....dissent, cheating and direspect of the refs being a real stain on the game for me. If it had been an Everton player i'd have been fuming at the player in question not the ref.

He should have been sent off a few weeks ago against boro as well BTW. We also saw a blatent Gerrard hand ball in the penatly area overlooked recently, not to mention what we all saw at the derby.

Mascherano was a total idiot.

In the current climate, post-Ashley Cole incident, with a big media backlash and the refs promising a crackdown on dissent what person in their right mind would spend the opening half hour of a game ranting at every decision a referee makes?

Then he runs fully 30yards to question one of his decisions? Silly.

You could see his team mates weren't surprised by the sending off. Strictly speaking maybe he shouldn't have gone if his comments weren't abusive (a final warning might have done the trick) but at the end of the day, if you're that stupid then I've got no sympathy. If he'd conducted himself properly then he'd have been on the pitch for the 90. The whole build up to this weekend's matches was going on about players conducting themselves right around the referee.

Makes me laugh that Masch asks the ref `why`, and gets sent off, but Gerrard tells the ref he takes the fucking piss, and gets away with it

Oh stop moaning.

He runs 20 yards to get involved in something that has sod all to do with him and he's on a yellow AND just watched his mate get booked for challanging the ref. Its about time a Referee stood up to players contesting every single decision. It wasnt the first time he mouthed off at the Ref and had already committed 2 or 3 fouls after he had been booked.

I say this not as a "bitter blue" but as a neutral who is sick of the way the game is going....dissent, cheating and direspect of the refs being a real stain on the game for me. If it had been an Everton player i'd have been fuming at the player in question not the ref.

He should have been sent off a few weeks ago against boro as well BTW. We also saw a blatent Gerrard hand ball in the penatly area overlooked recently, not to mention what we all saw at the derby.

rooney is allowed to do it every game though? Liverpool can boss any teams midfield with mascherano, alonso and gerrard. Purple-head-ted knows this so he wants to play "different rules" - thats why every time we play them he's in the press a week before moaning about the referee protecting Ronaldo and flair players. Mascherano was booked after making his first challenge in the first 10 minutes, not because it was a particularly nasty challenge, but because the referee has been influenced. Game over, we can't boss the game. The kicking the shit out of torres was far more cynical, and torres was the one booked for it. And he has every reason to ask the referee why Torres got booked for letting United players kick shit out of him, he probably feels something underhand was going on.. and it quite clearly is. It was a joke decision... anybody can see this. Anyway, you're far from neutral really. Anybody but the thickest can see hes been influenced by this:-

Last Updated: Saturday, 22 March 2008, 10:58 GMT

Ferguson urges referees respect
Alex Ferguson has called for officials to receive more respect.
Manchester United manager Sir Alex Ferguson says the lack of respect shown to referees is "ridiculous."

Ferguson also insists he will never allow his players to harangue referees and has called for more respect to be shown to officials.


its a fucking joke. This is the manager who introduced the tactic into English football, how many times have we seen Jaap Stam, Roy Keane, Brian Mclair, paul ince etc.... surround the referee and scream at him until they were red in the face. Recently Arsenal and Chelsea are just as bad. I don't know why we bothered turning up today.

rooney is allowed to do it every game though? Liverpool can boss any teams midfield with mascherano, alonso and gerrard. Purple-head-ted knows this so he wants to play "different rules" - thats why every time we play them he's in the press a week before moaning about the referee protecting Ronaldo and flair players.

I must have imagined Rafa argueing the same point the other day then?

BBC.co.uk

Liverpool boss Rafael Benitez wants retrospective video evidence to be used to protect the Premier League's most skilful players.
Benitez, whose side play at Manchester United on Sunday, made his call after Sir Alex Ferguson pleaded for protection for Cristiano Ronaldo.

He said: "I have always felt that video evidence should be used after a game for disciplinary matters.

"You can find things, you can protect players for the next game."

Players will then know that there are cameras watching them. The video is really important

Liverpool boss Rafael Benitez

Benitez added the names of Liverpool captain Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres to the list of players he feels should receive protection.


So it's just skillfull players that should be protected!?

The Skyification of our game continues unabated.

SUPER SUNDAY SOCCERBALL FEATURING THE BIG FOUR WHOOOOPPPPPEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

What needs to be stopped is this kind of behaviour....

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/08_02/LiverpoolDM1908_468x370.jpg

Shithouse refereeing.

Roll on next week, if there is a game we don't need Mascherano it's against a mid table side in decline.

Please tell me Clatternburg isn't reffing next week.

; )

Who cares, they want respect then act like cunts. Fuck the lot of them.

Apart from Clattenburg obviously, Mark is a good ref.

Seriously if we keep getting shithouse referees we'll keep getting angst, I can handle mistakes, I can't handle gobshites pandering to that odious cunt Ferguson season after season.

We need the people who run this game to grow a set of balls.

We need Sky and the sensationalist SSN reigning in.

We need to emulate rugby with a zero tollerance to backchatting the ref, both during and AFTER a game. So when Fergie or whoever blasts the referee there us a strict and harsh punishment.

We need the laws of the game to be enforced.

The whole build up to this weekend's matches was going on about players conducting themselves right around the referee.

....you may be right about this weeks revenue-generating 'Hot Topic' ("Have you say! Phone in! Log on!), however I'd been unaware, until today, that this latest advertising hype had in fact effected an official change in the rules of the game during the week?

Maybe someone should've told the players?

No. I feel games are effectively rigged at OT. Today didn't ease that suspicion. Bennett, by rights, should never officiate another game.

Ever seen rightresult.net?

Right Result EPL Team Played W D L F A GD RR Points EPL Points
1 1 Manchester United 30 23 3 4 66 16 50 72 70
2 2 Arsenal 30 20 9 1 63 23 40 69 67
3 3 Chelsea 30 18 7 5 52 24 28 61 65
4 5 Everton 30 18 5 7 52 24 28 59 56
5 4 Liverpool 30 14 11 5 55 26 29 53 59

before this week, obviously, but the reds get their fair share of dodgy decisions. And Masch was an idiot, you could read Gerrard's face, he knew it was going to happen.

What needs to be stopped is this kind of behaviour....

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/08_02/LiverpoolDM1908_468x370.jpg

?!

I'm perplexed. What sort of behaviour?

?!

I'm perplexed. What sort of behaviour?


Rob Stiles acting the nob I think VT..:lol:

Rob Stiles acting the nob I think VT..:lol:


caption competition: What is Alonso saying?

btw did anybody else have an ad for riot control gear at the foot of this page?

We need to emulate rugby

Oh my word.:wallbash:

Rugby isn't a sport.

It's an initiation and bonding ceremony between old boarding chums- a social and business Rite Of Passage and a 'proving-ground' for new members.

Like paintball and Fight Club, it's a displacement activity of frustrated macho hormones for old hunting classes, and for those who like to join....that's fine, I don't really care, but the point is, outside of it's own little niche, neither does anyone else.

In world terms only around 5 people actually play it. 15 people actually watch it. 0 people actually care about the result.

It affects no-ones lives win, lose or draw.

It's a social activity between chums. Lovely.

It isn't a competitive sport.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE ARGUMENTS AND PEOPLE GENERALLY "GIVING A SHIT" DON'T WATCH SPORT, WATCH THE FUGGIN RUGGER.

....you may be right about this weeks revenue-generating 'Hot Topic' ("Have you say! Phone in! Log on!), however I'd been unaware, until today, that this latest advertising hype had in fact effected an official change in the rules of the game during the week?

Maybe someone should've told the players?

No. I feel games are effectively rigged at OT. Today didn't ease that suspicion. Bennett, by rights, should never officiate another game.

Yeah, obviously it's not an official rule change :nuts:

What it is, is something that will effect the referee.

They'll have it in their minds that they can't be seen as soft on dissent/abuse towards officials since it's the big topic of the moment and all the ensuing bollocks that brings- condemnation from the England boss & the FA, the PFA mouthpiece speaking out, the frenzy on SSN etc will be playing on them

If Rafa didn't remind his players of this or Mascherano didn't take heed of it then it's nothing but lazy negligence. I know for 37 games of the season you get your own way and don't bother with these pesky rules but this was Utd at Old Trafford! No one gets the benefit of the doubt there. :ohno:

What needs to be stopped is this kind of behaviour....

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/08_02/LiverpoolDM1908_468x370.jpg

I totally agree, the sooner the captain of liverpool Football club starts acting like on the better instead of hiding in the background when big balls* and leadership are needed.

*testicles; not big hoofs up the pitch (for the benefit of evertonian readers obviously)

What it is, is something that will effect the referee.

It will affect a suggestable referree, a vane referree, a weak referree, a bent referree, yes, unfortunately I agree.

He has no place in the game.

These conspiracy theories are ridicluous.

I just made the point that it's nigh on impossible to get a penalty in front of the Kop against Liverpool. The other week Gerrard with a blatent hand ball which was seen by everyone there.

You've had moe than your fair share of riding good luck when it comes to refs.

Rugby might not be a great game and is full of homos indeed....but at least there is total respect and appliance of the RULES and zero tollerance to arsing about.

Also at least they don't fall down as though they've been shot by a fucking .45 magnum when they are slightly touched by an opposing player. That if you ask me is propper faggoty behaviour and I see ALL footballers get away with it (including a fair few Everton players) week in week out.

Pathetic.

Rugby might not be a great game and is full of homos indeed....but at least there is total respect and appliance of the RULES and zero tollerance to arsing about.

Yeah, very tough, very much like like Salem during the witch-trials then. And?

This isn't life honey.

People sometimes care about stuff. It's the glory of sport- real sport I mean.


Rules. There are no rules about what happened today, and before today I was unaware a proxy rule could be enacted on the sport for the hitherto non-crime of merely Talking To A Referree At Old Trafford.

That's not a rule. It's an abuse. Abuse of power. But maybe we should "totally respect" that sort of bollocks?

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/08_02/LiverpoolDM1908_468x370.jpg

I love this picture.

This is football.

Rules. There are no rules about what happened today, and before today I was unaware a proxy rule could be enacted on the sport for the hitherto non-crime of merely Talking To A Referree At Old Trafford.

Look up the rules on dissent.

Where was captain marvel today, both in a diffusing the situation sense and footballing sense?

Here's a list of the crap refereeing decisions you seem to have forgotten about, a lot of them won you cups too.

F.a. cup semi 1977 - clive thomas re- bryan hamiltons disallowed goal

League cup final, Sammy Lee lying down in an off side position right in front of the West ham goaliess line of vision as yous scored.

Roma getting a penalty as the ref pointed to the spot, fell over then got up only to give them a corner.

Stephan Henchoz handling twice in the area in the f.a. cup final v Arsenal in the 'owen' final.

The Garcia goal v Chelsea that never crossed the line in the semi final

Hansen handling Heaths goalbound effort on the line in the 84 milk cup final

Clattenburg not sending Kuyt off for a high two footed challenge, yet Hibbett goes for a shoulder on shoulder after rafa gives the ref '2 fingers as in been booked already' - does nothing when Carra wrestles Lescott to the ground twice though.

Graham Poll disallowing the goal off the back of Don Hutchison after Westerveld hit it at him, he was retreating at the time, the goalie could have waited, the decision was shrouded in mystery - it was the 90th minute ref claimed full time had gone then gave a free kick.

Rooney today could have had a pen, carra gets away with it again due to Rooneys honesty, but let's not mention that one...

Furthermore, let's weigh up the refs officiating at Everton's games this season - we've already mentioned Clottenburg. AJ's disallowed goal at Blackburn which every pundit was confused over. Yak's goal just this sunday gone - proven onside - there's another 5 points we'd have had in just those 3 games even if the Derby had been a draw which would have decreased your points by 2 at the same time. Pffft. The only points I think lfc have dropped due to a ref this season was at Anfield against Chelsea.

Where was captain marvel today, both in a diffusing the situation sense and footballing sense?

Here's a list of the crap refereeing decisions you seem to have forgotten about, a lot of them won you cups too.

F.a. cup semi 1977 - clive thomas re- bryan hamiltons disallowed goal

League cup final, Sammy Lee lying down in an off side position right in front of the West ham goaliess line of vision as yous scored.

Roma getting a penalty as the ref pointed to the spot, fell over then got up only to give them a corner.

Stephan Henchoz handling twice in the area in the f.a. cup final v Arsenal in the 'owen' final.

The Garcia goal v Chelsea that never crossed the line in the semi final

Hansen handling Heaths goalbound effort on the line in the 84 milk cup final

Clattenburg not sending Kuyt off for a high two footed challenge, yet Hibbett goes for a shoulder on shoulder after rafa gives the ref '2 fingers as in been booked already' - does nothing when Carra wrestles Lescott to the ground twice though.

Graham Poll disallowing the goal off the back of Don Hutchison after Westerveld hit it at him, he was retreating at the time, the goalie could have waited, the decision was shrouded in mystery - it was the 90th minute ref claimed full time had gone then gave a free kick.

Rooney today could have had a pen, carra gets away with it again due to Rooneys honesty, but let's not mention that one...




if there was ever any evidence required to prove just how bitter some blues are, its above.

^^ I know, referees making wrong decisions

if there was ever any evidence required to prove just how bitter some blues are, its above.

Yosh, it's a regurgitation of a post made a few week's back. That's 10 decisions in 30 years. I countered it with some decisions that cost us finals and a rebuttal of the Garcia decision and all I got was you might not have scored the pen (whereas I assume every pen would have been scored against us) and might then not have beaten 10 men in the ensuing 85 minutes and that Inzaghi's deflecting the ball in off his arm was not hand ball. I find it's pointless even debating with them.

Where was captain marvel today, both in a diffusing the situation sense and footballing sense?

Here's a list of the crap refereeing decisions you seem to have forgotten about, a lot of them won you cups too.

F.a. cup semi 1977 - clive thomas re- bryan hamiltons disallowed goal

League cup final, Sammy Lee lying down in an off side position right in front of the West ham goaliess line of vision as yous scored.

Roma getting a penalty as the ref pointed to the spot, fell over then got up only to give them a corner.

Stephan Henchoz handling twice in the area in the f.a. cup final v Arsenal in the 'owen' final.

The Garcia goal v Chelsea that never crossed the line in the semi final

Hansen handling Heaths goalbound effort on the line in the 84 milk cup final

Clattenburg not sending Kuyt off for a high two footed challenge, yet Hibbett goes for a shoulder on shoulder after rafa gives the ref '2 fingers as in been booked already' - does nothing when Carra wrestles Lescott to the ground twice though.

Graham Poll disallowing the goal off the back of Don Hutchison after Westerveld hit it at him, he was retreating at the time, the goalie could have waited, the decision was shrouded in mystery - it was the 90th minute ref claimed full time had gone then gave a free kick.

Rooney today could have had a pen, carra gets away with it again due to Rooneys honesty, but let's not mention that one...


Have to agree with Joshef, keayman. I wonder just how many Liverpudlians could/would want to construct such a list about Everton? I can't even imagine retaining that sort of info about another team in my head.

Shocking!

^^ Agreed

if there was ever any evidence required to prove just how bitter some blues are, its above.

I was waiting for that and you fell into the trap.

I wish I had a pound coin for the number of times I've heard or read about how you've just got your bitter sweet revenge on Inter Milan for something that happened when you were probably in nappies or maybe not even born 43 years ago.

The fact you can't disprove anything i've said above though speaks volumes.

Have to agree with Joshef, keayman. I wonder just how many Liverpudlians could/would want to construct such a list about Everton? I can't even imagine retaining that sort of info about another team in my head.

Shocking!


Tony - feel free.

Information about other teams by the 'most knowledgeable fans in the land' isn't a strong point of people who only wear red tinted glasses, in fact a red poster has even admitted to watching no other team, even on the telly, but his own - enough said - how can he offer opinions on anything then - it's true - you can't debate with them. LMAO

double post

Fair enough point there keayman, but I think that my main point still stands, that type stat retention (about situations that where not even against Everton..at least the Inter gripe as associated with Liverpool) is just a little too obsessive to be healthy?

So i'm bitter then because I can remember things you can't?

I'm a footy obsessive, play it, watch it, breathe it and spend a lot of money on it, as a hobby I'm castigated for having a good memory whereas I can't debate with people who only have selective (where it suits them) memories and 4 or 5 of those DID involve Everton.

You know from my books how good my memory is Tony ;)


Anyway, on a lighter note:

Wes Brown and Christiano Ronaldo are releasing a new record for charity. It's the old Andy Johnson hit 'Reina's drops keep falling on my head'

:)

Only problem is Wes Brown's head is further up his 'back', than where the ball hit so....

I know but after two flukes against Bolton (Gerrard) and Newcastle (Pennant), that's another thing yous are tops at ;)

ps. Sorry for remembering those Tony :)

to balance the equation here are a few "refereeing wrongs" given against Liverpool since 1978 (the ones i am old enough to recall).

1978 league cup final V Nott'm Forest. Perfectly good goal by Terry McDermott ruled out for handball. replays shown that he hadn't handled it. score at time 0-0

1978 league cup final replay V Nott'm Forest. Penalty awarded to Forest when replays had shown the Phil Thompson trip had occured outside the box. John Robertson converted the spot kick to win the trophy.

Another perfectly good girl by Terry McDermott ruled out for handball when replays shown it had struck his sholder as he attempted to bring it under control. score at time 0-1.

1982 European Cup quarter final tie V CSKA Sofia (away leg behind the then iron curtain). In the words of the the Welsh manager Mike England on radio the referee (just like against Inter Milan in 1965) had been paid off. the game was never shown on tv. Liverpool never got a decision in their favour all night including a perfectly good goal disallowed that would have put them through.

1985 European Cup final V Juventus. a proven dodgy goal by the Polish international Boniek allowed to stand. Again Liverpool didnt get a decision all night. it was obvious after the crowd trouble, Juventus had to win the game.

here are 5 proven bad decisions off the top of my head that cost Liverpool games and even some silverware. am sure there are many more. i will try and think of some more in the meantime.

Over the course of 30 years these decisions will surely balance themselves out.

I know but after two flukes against Bolton (Gerrard) and Newcastle (Pennant), that's another thing yous are tops at ;)

ps. Sorry for remembering those Tony :)

chelsea are the kings of the "in-off goals". have never seen a team score so many deflected goals than chelsea have over the last few seasons. including a couple of Joe Cole specials that were flying wide but somehow deflected into our net!

Yes Paul maybe so. Tell me then please where the 5 incidents i've included involving Everton have balanced themselves out cos I don't go along with that idea at all. I remember Chesterfield scoring a goal too that hit the back stantion of the goal and came out that fast that the ref thought it hadn't gone in - tell a Chesterfield supporter that the play off didn't matter.

Whilst I don't deny 'some' of what you have put may be correct, the ones I have put cannot be denied.

How about Gerrard falling over after missing his kick, first game of season against Sheff Utd - penalty given and scored - Sheff Utd relegated. Ok, they had a whole season to correct it so they deserved to go anyway, but that was another 2 points gained in your battle with us - ooops - sorry if this sounds bitter, just pointing a few facts out. ;)

chelsea are the kings of the "in-off goals". have never seen a team score so many deflected goals than chelsea have over the last few seasons. including a couple of Joe Cole specials that were flying wide but somehow deflected into our net!


OK Paul, i'll give you that, you're 2nd then :)

I know but after two flukes against Bolton (Gerrard) and Newcastle (Pennant), that's another thing yous are tops at ;)

ps. Sorry for remembering those Tony :)

so the appropriate term is 'nerd' then? :)

Yes Paul maybe so. Tell me then please where the 5 incidents i've included involving Everton have balanced themselves out cos I don't go along with that idea at all. I remember Chesterfield scoring a goal too that hit the back stantion of the goal and came out that fast that the ref thought it hadn't gone in - tell a Chesterfield supporter that the play off didn't matter.

Whilst I don't deny 'some' of what you have put may be correct, the ones I have put cannot be denied.

How about Gerrard falling over after missing his kick, first game of season against Sheff Utd - penalty given and scored - Sheff Utd relegated. Ok, they had a whole season to correct it so they deserved to go anyway, but that was another 2 points gained in your battle with us - ooops - sorry if this sounds bitter, just pointing a few facts out. ;)

that wasnt a penalty by gerrard in the opening game v Sheff Utd 2006-07 (i was as that game!). he went over looking for the pen. the game finished 1-1 actually, so only 1 point was gained. but as you say, surely they had another 37 games to pick themselves up and avoid relegation! its a bit like during the 1997-98 season Bolton's perfectly good winning goal against Everton at the reebok being chalked off. later that season they got relegated on goal difference ahead of Everton! you cant base logic like that or you would have been down!

Cup games like the Chesterfield FA semi final V Boro at Old Trafford (1996-97) are different. thats a one off game. i remember the incident in question. Chesterfield would have went 3-1 up and surely would have got to Wembley.

........................
Another perfectly good girl by Terry McDermott r................

:) Freudian slip.....

:) Freudian slip.....

haha! :lol: wonder what happened there!

We'll soon see if there is a big consipracy against the reds when the FA come to decide whether to charge mashcerano for his antics.

Regardless of whether the decision to send him off was right or not, when he got the card he should have walked without the dissent....he went off on one for a considerable length of time flipping out on the touchline and had to be restrained by his own manager who had the sense to step in.

Be interesting to see if he escapes further censure....because I can guarantee if it was an Everton player it would be a 6 game ban for that reaction.