In the spirit of attempting to having more topic specific threads, I've decided to bring up a discussion (pending interest) of the Library Square plan that was in part initiated by the Patterson Park Development Corporation.

The area sits just north of the Patterson Park neighborhood, where Pulaski Highway feeds into Fayette St.

I'm interested to gauge other people's thoughts are on this matter and to see if they see the same red herrings I do. :)

If the moderators think this should be in the Baltimore Development thread, apologies.

http://www.pattersonparkneighbors.org/Library_Square/Library_Square_master_plan.pdf

Nate

thanks for posting that! I'm glad to see they have put together some details on their proposal. I haven't read through it yet, but once I do I'll chime in on my thoughts. I used to live about a block south of that area so I know the issues fairly well. To be blunt, Fayette is basically a mess over there and needs some serious work. It is seen as a huge physical barrier to development north of the park....BUT, the ppcdc and other investors have started to venture north of fayette to the 200 blocks and rehab homes over there too. I know previously, many of the older home owners in that neighborhood were actually opposed to the library square project because they were concerned over higher property taxes. Its amazing how you can see so much blight and not want to improve it. Last comment before I go is that the ppcdc has done a tremendous job in that neighborhood, but they do move VERY slow on these projects. They are sponsoring a coffee shop being built on fairmount and I think belnord and they were claiming it would open in the spring of last year. I've yet to see any construction on it yet (except for the banner outside announcing it). Its gonna be a while before that coffee shop is up and going unfortunately.

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If the moderators think this should be in the Baltimore Development thread, apologies.

http://www.pattersonparkneighbors.org/Library_Square/Library_Square_master_plan.pdf

Nate

I think this is exactly what the mods have in mind...not having everything in 1 huge thread...

^^ I agree. I think this is exactly the form towards which this forum should progress. As for the project, I'm not all that familiar with what is there now, but the new renderings look great. I really like the idea of ground level retail and the tree-lined corridor. It reminds me of the Park Blocks in Portland. I also like the new design for Paca Elementary. Does the current school look anything like that?
I'll have to read over that plan when I have more time. I'm interested to know what scale construction they're looking for to line the Square if anything is constructed. Thanks for posting this, Nate.

Beautiful project. I used to live a few blocks up on the first block of Milton Ave adjacent to Patterson Park. This project would bring that area back. I got my fingers crossed on this one.

Okay, I'll post a letter I sent to former City transportation engineer Gerry Neily and on-line planner extroirdonaire who lives in Butchers Hill regarding the plan. He and some members of TRAC have had a relationship with him for a number of years:

"...have you looked at the Library Square Draft Plan? Are they serious? They want Fayette to have establishments facing the park. That's nice to have. The problem is they don't and south of Fayette is hot and they don't specifically say there needs to be demolition or drastic alteration to the ends of the north/south blocks, but it's pretty damn implicit. Do you think those residents are seriously going to let their newly renovated houses get knocked down?

Secondly, did TND do any analytical traffic impact studies with their vehicular calming stipulations for Fayette St? Orleans is one block away and they don't even seriously consider the impacts even though the plan was supposedly embracing the larger neighborhood. If you calm Fayette, what the hell happens to Orleans? Sink deeper into dispear? Without condemnation, does one really think they can take all of Orleans and the intersectiong block houses for apartment buildings? The housing stock there is still largely in tact and being renovated.

I'd thought about the idea of making Fayette/Orleans a one-way pair, where more full-time parking on Orleans might improve the scenario. (I know the trend is the other way, but what else do you do with Orleans?)"...

I like the idea of what they want to do here, I simply think that it's not meant to happen at this place and time, esp. since that part of town has it's rowhouses dominate the north-south streets instead of the east-west streets which makes this situation untenable in my mind unless everyone who lives in those houses affected is for this.

Generally, these type of designs might be best implemented north of Madison and east of the biotech park, where massive redevelopment is possible and plans have not yet been prepared (don't touch the Eager St houses--we need to demolish those for the subway! :D)

Nate

Okay, I'll post a letter I sent to former City transportation engineer Gerry Neily and on-line planner extroirdonaire who lives in Butchers Hill regarding the plan. He and some members of TRAC have had a relationship with him for a number of years:

"...have you looked at the Library Square Draft Plan? Are they serious? They want Fayette to have establishments facing the park. That's nice to have. The problem is they don't and south of Fayette is hot and they don't specifically say there needs to be demolition or drastic alteration to the ends of the north/south blocks, but it's pretty damn implicit. Do you think those residents are seriously going to let their newly renovated houses get knocked down?

I like the idea of what they want to do here, I simply think that it's not meant to happen at this place and time, esp. since that part of town has it's rowhouses dominate the north-south streets instead of the east-west streets which makes this situation untenable in my mind unless everyone who lives in those houses affected is for this.

Generally, these type of designs might be best implemented north of Madison and east of the biotech park, where massive redevelopment is possible and plans have not yet been prepared (don't touch the Eager St houses--we need to demolish those for the subway! :D)

Nate

Nate, I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here (or what you've quoted Gerry Neil as saying). I think (hope) Gerry has misinterpreted what is being proposed (or maybe I have). But the way I understand it, when they say the buildings on Fayette will be "facing the park" they are not talking about patterson park, they are talking about the triangular median in between Fayette that will become a landscaped park. I don't see any implication that anything will happen or is being propsed that affects any homes south of Fayette. Currently, the entrances to many of the buildings on Fayette have entrances that face east/west... in order to make Fayette a commercial district, those buildings should either function or at least appear to be facing Fayette (ie. the park).
As far as I see this project, it is nothing on the scope of a streuver bros project that would demolish large areas and rebuild up... this is really more of a series of rehabs and small construction projects to liven a dead street. All the people that rehabbed homes just south of there (including myself) would not have their homes sacrificed for this development. Thats the good news about it, the bad news is, because its not a streuver bros type, rebuild an entire area thing, it will be a long slow process with very little instant gratification like we've seen in charles village.

^The quoted material I presented was written myself to Mr. Neily.

I did that so as not to rewrite from scratch what I wanted to say.

You're correct, the houses facing the "park" are facing the triangulary "Library Square" (a new moniker).

From an urban design standpoint, it would be more conducive as a community/retail/commercial destination if the houses south of Fayette St faced Fayette. But they don't; that part of town the rowhouses are primarily built out to fill the North/South streets, so that the sides face the East/West Streets--in this case Fayette.

The problem as I see it is that the housing stock south of Fayette is in good shape and recently rehabbed. I don't think homeowners will want to make the change to essentially rebuilding their properties for commercial use facing the north. The plan only really works, if everybody does this--an even more likely occurance. The plan says that to accomplish this, no demolition would be required,neccesarily. But from their schematics and sketches, TND shows drastic reconstruction of the houses facing the street (like completely adding a third floor in an architecturally appropriate fashion. Many of their diagrams imply or show new buildings which would require going 4 to6 houses deep into the N/S streets for new 4 to 5 story buildings, IIRC.

I simply see this as illogical, because the newly renovated houses south of Fayette are a hard asset. Is it worth destabilizing that. The money was just invested to solidify the stock. Is it appropriate to do it there, is it likely to occur without coordination of all the owners. Would the City have to get involved, or god help us, the BDC? That's basically what I was getting at.

That and the whole traffic Fayette/Orleans mess, which TND completely ignored.

Nate

(BTW, the head of TND is Stuart Sirota, who doesn't seem to think much of transportation from a technical or analytical manner, IMO. Like him, I love New Urbanism, but he treats it as a religion as how things should be, but aren't really. Too much normative reasoning. He eventually kicked me off his listserve for being inflammatory, discourteous, unprofessional and the like. :lol: Boy, everyone here would get banished on his site if I got banished. Long story there....:nuts: :cheers: