Hey guys,

Have a question: is the city of Pretoria now officially called Tswane, or is it just the name of the municipality? Most recent info i can find on this issue is from early 2006... So i wondered whether the politicians are still fighting over the name or not.
Why would they want to change Pretoria's name anway? It's not like Pretoria has a racist meaning or anything, it's a historical name just like any other city in the world i guess? And what a waste of money to change a city's name by the way... Oh, now that im talking about silly names, are they going to change the name of the world cup stadium in Durban, or will the whole know it as King Something stadium in 2010?

Later

Hey guys,

Have a question: is the city of Pretoria now officially called Tswane, or is it just the name of the municipality? Most recent info i can find on this issue is from early 2006... So i wondered whether the politicians are still fighting over the name or not.
Why would they want to change Pretoria's name anway? It's not like Pretoria has a racist meaning or anything, it's a historical name just like any other city in the world i guess? And what a waste of money to change a city's name by the way... Oh, now that im talking about silly names, are they going to change the name of the world cup stadium in Durban, or will the whole know it as King Something stadium in 2010?

Later

Its officials bro who decided to change it, I think they had to make money for one of thier brothers. Be ofiicial, I personally cannot confirm it.

Its officials bro who decided to change it, I think they had to make money for one of thier brothers. Be ofiicial, I personally cannot confirm it.

No offence to the past hero's of the struggle & the ancestor's of the land before the white heathen stole from them etc etc ... but I find that name changing is totally unnecessary, fine, change a few street names, maybe one or two towns, but please leave the Big City names, even airport names, the change of them to the names of the respective city's there were in was a good move, but now all of a sudden theres a change & O.R Thambo has arrived.

Change the name of the municipalities fine, like here in Durbs, everything is changed from Durban Metro to eThekweni, which is cool, long as Durban still is the city name,


Coming back to your question, I think the municipalities have changed names, not sure about the main name, but as soon as they change it, you will know, cause the money for changing road signs will magicaly appear & in a flash, Pretoria will be a thing of the past on road signs.

No offence to the past hero's of the struggle & the ancestor's of the land before the white heathen stole from them etc etc ... but I find that name changing is totally unnecessary, fine, change a few street names, maybe one or two towns, but please leave the Big City names, even airport names, the change of them to the names of the respective city's there were in was a good move, but now all of a sudden theres a change & O.R Thambo has arrived.

Change the name of the municipalities fine, like here in Durbs, everything is changed from Durban Metro to eThekweni, which is cool, long as Durban still is the city name,


Coming back to your question, I think the municipalities have changed names, not sure about the main name, but as soon as they change it, you will know, cause the money for changing road signs will magicaly appear & in a flash, Pretoria will be a thing of the past on road signs.

its now tshwane. I kinda like the name. Pretoria always brought to mind a dull city and whilst a change of name will not make the place anymore exciting (I hate pretoria/tshwane it is dirty and bloody dull) it might improve tourism by revitalising its image.

its now tshwane. I kinda like the name. Pretoria always brought to mind a dull city and whilst a change of name will not make the place anymore exciting (I hate pretoria/tshwane it is dirty and bloody dull) it might improve tourism by revitalising its image.

Municipality is Tswane. City is still Pretoria.

Trust me, the day the city's name changes to Tswane, you will be sure to know about it! I can guarentee you it won't happen quietly!...

Municipality is Tswane. City is still Pretoria.

Trust me, the day the city's name changes to Tswane, you will be sure to know about it! I can guarentee you it won't happen quietly!...

I thought the city name had changed too. I saw some altered road signs the other day and SABC refer to it as Tshwane and when we have to contact government departments etc the address they give is usually 'Tshwane'

I thought the city name had changed too. I saw some altered road signs the other day and SABC refer to it as Tshwane and when we have to contact government departments etc the address they give is usually 'Tshwane'

Pretoria is still Pretoria. With all the uproar at the time nothing has been made official yet. i read an article the other day which stated that final approval for the total name change has not occured and the city is still pretoria. The municipality is still Tshwane tho

Pretoria is still Pretoria. With all the uproar at the time nothing has been made official yet. i read an article the other day which stated that final approval for the total name change has not occured and the city is still pretoria. The municipality is still Tshwane tho

What a big joke, I must say. This big city and nobody even has a clue what its name is-- that's how strangely this has been handled. Hopefully they can officially let us know what they plan to call it in the long run.

TshwanePretoriaahhhhhhhh

What a big joke, I must say. This big city and nobody even has a clue what its name is-- that's how strangely this has been handled. Hopefully they can officially let us know what they plan to call it in the long run.

TshwanePretoriaahhhhhhhh

Tswane is an African name and Pretoria is in Africa to it follows that some cities names will have to be changed. I don't know of any large city in Holland or England that has an African name so if Africans choose to change the name of a city, they have a democratic right to do so. Remember that Pretoria and the other cities were named by colonial masters so when Africans get their independence they should be able to name their country and cities any way they choose. Sorry to bring this up but I think many on this forum seem to forget that the country belongs to all the people not a select privilaged few.

Tswane is an African name and Pretoria is in Africa to it follows that some cities names will have to be changed. I don't know of any large city in Holland or England that has an African name so if Africans choose to change the name of a city, they have a democratic right to do so. Remember that Pretoria and the other cities were named by colonial masters so when Africans get their independence they should be able to name their country and cities any way they choose. Sorry to bring this up but I think many on this forum seem to forget that the country belongs to all the people not a select privilaged few.

^^ True that that africanman, but the government seems to busy worrying about changing names than dealing with bigger problems we facing, thats the only issue I have with it. The costs that the country has to occur for changing the names runs into millions, & that money can be used A) to fight crime, B) Build houses for the homeless, C) HIV treatment.

^^ True that that africanman, but the government seems to busy worrying about changing names than dealing with bigger problems we facing, thats the only issue I have with it. The costs that the country has to occur for changing the names runs into millions, & that money can be used A) to fight crime, B) Build houses for the homeless, C) HIV treatment.

I quite like Tshwane, but Pretoria was actually founded and developed by Afrikaaners and I dont see that they should naming rights just because they lost power. Johannesburg makes more sense to change as no one group developed or affected it... but changing the identity of the only major city could makes the country appear unstable to the rest of the world.

I quite like Tshwane, but Pretoria was actually founded and developed by Afrikaaners and I dont see that they should naming rights just because they lost power. Johannesburg makes more sense to change as no one group developed or affected it... but changing the identity of the only major city could makes the country appear unstable to the rest of the world.

I agree that the SA taxpayer has to foot the bill for all these useless name changes, while local ANC politicians need to worry more about the development issues and service delivery. Also I think to foreign tourists it gets confusing as one often time does not know where these places are. For instance when I read an article about Mthatha, it took me a while to figure out it used to be Umtata rather than some new resort on the Wild Coast. Also confusing is that the names of the municipalities are different from the actual cities such as Durban and eThekwini.

I agree that the SA taxpayer has to foot the bill for all these useless name changes, while local ANC politicians need to worry more about the development issues and service delivery. Also I think to foreign tourists it gets confusing as one often time does not know where these places are. For instance when I read an article about Mthatha, it took me a while to figure out it used to be Umtata rather than some new resort on the Wild Coast. Also confusing is that the names of the municipalities are different from the actual cities such as Durban and eThekwini.

so it's a waste of taxpayer's money, when are politicians not wasting taxpayer's money? show me a government that hasn't wasted taxpayers money on frivolous projects, whats that? there are none?!? well what do you know? at least the name of the capital city will no longer be a foreign one - and it does sound better at that too.

so it's a waste of taxpayer's money, when are politicians not wasting taxpayer's money? show me a government that hasn't wasted taxpayers money on frivolous projects, whats that? there are none?!? well what do you know? at least the name of the capital city will no longer be a foreign one - and it does sound better at that too.

at least the name of the capital city will no longer be a foreign one - and it does sound better at that too.

Thanks for your replies guys, i suppose i'm not the only one who doesn't have a clue :nuts: So what's this stuff about Pretoria being a foreign or not-African name?? As far as i know, Afrikaners are African, being decendents of Dutch and French settles doesn't make you less African i guess? The 'voortrekkers' did not have any political relation with the Netherlands or the UK at the time when Pretoria was founded, they were just as African as the Zulus or Xhosa IMO. And the city was actually founded by some guy named Pretorius, so Pretoria makes quite alot of sense to me! Besides, lots of people in the world know Pretoria, no oneis familiar with Tshwane.

at least the name of the capital city will no longer be a foreign one - and it does sound better at that too.

Thanks for your replies guys, i suppose i'm not the only one who doesn't have a clue :nuts: So what's this stuff about Pretoria being a foreign or not-African name?? As far as i know, Afrikaners are African, being decendents of Dutch and French settles doesn't make you less African i guess? The 'voortrekkers' did not have any political relation with the Netherlands or the UK at the time when Pretoria was founded, they were just as African as the Zulus or Xhosa IMO. And the city was actually founded by some guy named Pretorius, so Pretoria makes quite alot of sense to me! Besides, lots of people in the world know Pretoria, no oneis familiar with Tshwane.

It's a hard call- usually I'd side with anything that creates a feeling of equality, but isn't that being done with renaming plenty of municipalities already? Hmmm...

And again, there are more important, more worthy issues than this, for money to be put into. I'd hope that the name "Pretoria" sticks, I guess.

It's a hard call- usually I'd side with anything that creates a feeling of equality, but isn't that being done with renaming plenty of municipalities already? Hmmm...

And again, there are more important, more worthy issues than this, for money to be put into. I'd hope that the name "Pretoria" sticks, I guess.

they were just as African as the Zulus or Xhosa IMO.

That is a very bold statement, extremely bold

they were just as African as the Zulus or Xhosa IMO.

That is a very bold statement, extremely bold

^^well they are afircan, for afrikaners home is africa. there culture is not found anywhere else in the world. It is uniquely south african and that makes them indigenous in my mind.

I'm sick of this black mentality that you are not african unless you are black. Because all of us (bar a few) are africans

^^well they are afircan, for afrikaners home is africa. there culture is not found anywhere else in the world. It is uniquely south african and that makes them indigenous in my mind.

I'm sick of this black mentality that you are not african unless you are black. Because all of us (bar a few) are africans

Then that concept should be applicable to all types of immigration

Then that concept should be applicable to all types of immigration

If indians have lived here for generations, they are african. The cubans, italians, mexicans that have gone to america are considered americans.

Just because the afrikaners roots are european, doesnt make them not indigenous. There are no native afrikaners in europe, there identity and culture were formulated in this land.

You have a narrow mind if you believe that African only equals Black.

If indians have lived here for generations, they are african. The cubans, italians, mexicans that have gone to america are considered americans.

Just because the afrikaners roots are european, doesnt make them not indigenous. There are no native afrikaners in europe, there identity and culture were formulated in this land.

You have a narrow mind if you believe that African only equals Black.

It's a pretty hard concept to grasp, but anyways back to the topic, how do you pronounce Tshwane

It's a pretty hard concept to grasp, but anyways back to the topic, how do you pronounce Tshwane

why the hell is it a hard concept to grasp that Afrikaners are African? Are you saying that black Americans are not American just because they are a minority? Afrikaans is an indigenous language to South Africa and is not spoken anywhere else in the world therefore it is African.

I really don't want to cause any problems, infact my number one goal is to become the least racist and ignorant person in the world's history. But it is a hard concept to grasp, it really is

why the hell is it a hard concept to grasp that Afrikaners are African? Are you saying that black Americans are not American just because they are a minority? Afrikaans is an indigenous language to South Africa and is not spoken anywhere else in the world therefore it is African.

because they're not. (irrigardless of what they may say).
and no you don't have to be black to be african. and their not being african has nothing to do with them being a minority. just as no one would not consider an african american to be "not american" - oh wait actually that was the case a hundred years ago.

It's a pretty hard concept to grasp, but anyways back to the topic, how do you pronounce Tshwane
T' - shwa - ne

That is a very bold statement, extremely bold

Not really, the afrikaner is a migrant (ex european ansestry, mixed with African birth) and they migrated up from the cape to the rest of SA. This is simmilar to the Xhosa and Zulu and in fact all Southern African "black" tribes who migrated South from more northern regions of central Africa.
The only true Southern African tribes are the Hottentots and koisan who were there before both "white" and "black" races arrived.
Southern Africa has a very intresting history going back 1000 years

^^well they are afircan, for afrikaners home is africa. there culture is not found anywhere else in the world. It is uniquely south african and that makes them indigenous in my mind.

I'm sick of this black mentality that you are not african unless you are black. Because all of us (bar a few) are africans

^^
You're 100% right, otherwise it would be like saying Caucasian Americans are not real Americans...

because they're not. (irrigardless of what they may say).
and no you don't have to be black to be african. and their not being african has nothing to do with them being a minority. just as no one would not consider an african american to be "not american" - oh wait actually that was the case a hundred years ago.

Native Americans & Asian Americans & African Americans & Hispanic Americans & Caucasian Americans = AMERICANS

Black South Africans & White South Africans & Colored South Africans & Indian South Africans = SOUTH AFRICANS

Can't you see the analogy? Sounds like someone's using double standards...

because they're not. (irrigardless of what they may say).
and no you don't have to be black to be african. and their not being african has nothing to do with them being a minority. just as no one would not consider an african american to be "not american" - oh wait actually that was the case a hundred years ago.

Come on... How ignorant are you? If white south africans aren't africans, then what are they?? How about Australians? Are aboriginals the only Australians, the rest are just exported Europeans?? Anyways, lets not turn this into some silly discussion...

Tshwane is pronounced 'Tswane'. The "h" only quickens the pronunciation of the 'Tswa'.

Obviously Afrikaaners are Africans, as the majority of them were born and raised in Africa, although Afrikaans is not an African language. Afrikaans falls under the Indo-Aryan family of languages, not the Niger-Congo family of languages - which is native to all Sub-Saharan Africa.

Then that concept should be applicable to all types of immigration


Well it does apply to all types of immigration. Whites in South America do not go about calling themselves European, do they? Fidel Castro doesn't go about proclaiming his European heritage because he was born and bred in the Caribbean. It would be non-sensical for him to do so.

And the same with whites down here - we do not consider ourselves Europeans floating about in Africa. We were born here, our history is here, our family is here, and we feel socially, culturally and politically connected to the continent. It is not a difficult concept to grasp, because it is a reality that just cannot be changed. Saying otherwise - as you might have gathered from our responses - is somewhat insulting. And incorrect.

Like I said i'm not trying to cause any problems, and my post
which said "That's a really bold statement"
Was only meant to say that, Afrianers aren't equally as African as black africans, regardless of how intergrated they are to the continent, just like Americans aren't equally as american as red indians etc. I don't doubt that Afrikaners are Africans and I think all Africans need to understand that but I think it is factually incorrect and historically incorrect to say that they are 100% as African as black Africans. I think a lot of you are misinterpreting my posts as ignorant posts, but I only posted so that we do not rewrite history to suit ourseleves. This post is 100% based on facts and not of my opinion. Afrikners are indeed south african and they are africans, their language is indigenous to Africa and Africa is their only home, they are African as I am African, Like i said I am not some ignorant person trying to steer up controversy, I love Afrikaners and South Africa.:)

.......okay, what the hell happened here. they way you pronounce Tshwane is Chwa-neh

Tshawne is a better name imo (which ever way you pronounce it). It might improve the town's image.

I guess the name change is OK. But I cant help smelling something fishy in this name changing business. When Mugabe changed the Zimbabwe capital's name from Salisbury to Harare, no one thought anything about it. Look what happened 20 years down the line. Could this be a reaction to Black south africa feeling that they have to correct historical wrongs?

Today it could be changing names, tomorrow it could be something totally different.

Like I said i'm not trying to cause any problems, and my post
which said "That's a really bold statement"
Was only meant to say that, Afrianers aren't equally as African as black africans, regardless of how intergrated they are to the continent, just like Americans aren't equally as american as red indians etc. I don't doubt that Afrikaners are Africans and I think all Africans need to understand that but I think it is factually incorrect and historically incorrect to say that they are 100% as African as black Africans. I think a lot of you are misinterpreting my posts as ignorant posts, but I only posted so that we do not rewrite history to suit ourseleves. This post is 100% based on facts and not of my opinion. Afrikners are indeed south african and they are africans, their language is indigenous to Africa and Africa is their only home, they are African as I am African, Like i said I am not some ignorant person trying to steer up controversy, I love Afrikaners and South Africa.:)


ur sayin dat whites arent 100% african n den agen jus afta dat u say dat dey r african as u r african..wtf?!?! make up ur flippin mind man!

now ya'll shut up n listen to me! y da hell do u wanna change a city's name which costs millions of bucks when u hav much bigga problems?? its not like dat makes da city betta or anyfin! when ur sittin hungry on da street ur not gonna care wat da hell da city's name is..so dey shud ratha hav used dat money for poverty or wateva. tut tut tut...:ohno:

Yeah it takes, a trillion bucks to change a cities name, use the money for changing the name on poverty, dude you should do stand up comedy:lol: :lol: :lol:

Thryve,
Please lock this thread as it is going in a direction it shouldn't. Also this topic should be discussed in the Pretoria Discussions and Gallery thread instead of being in the main area. Also I find the racial comments in this section offensive that should belong on a political website. Besides Pretoria is Pretoria and will always be to me.

well personally, i would imagine that some of SA's biggest cities would have to undergo name changes to reflect a more diverse and multi-racial south africa. i can bet you, there is going to be just as much outcry if you change, Joburg, Cape Town, Durban or Pretoria, so i guess at the end of the day, the ANC just has to do it. No Afrikaner will agree with a name change of any of the big cities, they have been crying fawl even when the small towns get renamed. Change is inevitable and some may not like it, but its inevitable.

I just think its pointless tho', fine celebrate past hero's. If SA didnt have big problems like it has now, fine change Pretoria to Tshwane, make Joburg Mandela city, Durbs eThekweni, but SA has got issues which need to get sorted out, which needs funding inorder to sort it out. Rather spend those funds to sort these problems out.

now ya'll shut up n listen to me! y da hell do u wanna change a city's name which costs millions of bucks when u hav much bigga problems?? its not like dat makes da city betta or anyfin! when ur sittin hungry on da street ur not gonna care wat da hell da city's name is..so dey shud ratha hav used dat money for poverty or wateva. tut tut tut...:ohno:


Hey bru you are back! Thank you for gracing us once again with your tirades. I fink weve got bigga problems than da changin of da city names! Da biggast problem here is that you, mister nixx, is still da part of da struggle. Da struggle to make sense and da struggle to spell.

Good luck with your banters.

They provide me with some comic relief.

wateva? tut tut

yeah, i agree, SA has always had big problems from apartheid itself and now to crime, hiv and unemployment. you will never have a time when all the problems are sorted and you can begin to transform things. The ANC has ushered a lot of the transformation that has enabled the country to enter what a lot of people view as the age of hope despite the problems mentioned above. So like BEE and AA, name changing is inevitable, to reflect the demoraphics of the country. Its a necessary evil, if i can call it that way.

yeah, i agree, SA has always had big problems from apartheid itself and now to crime, hiv and unemployment. you will never have a time when all the problems are sorted and you can begin to transform things. The ANC has ushered a lot of the transformation that has enabled the country to enter what a lot of people view as the age of hope despite the problems mentioned above. So like BEE and AA, name changing is inevitable, to reflect the demoraphics of the country. Its a necessary evil, if i can call it that way.

well personally, i would imagine that some of SA's biggest cities would have to undergo name changes to reflect a more diverse and multi-racial south africa. i can bet you, there is going to be just as much outcry if you change, Joburg, Cape Town, Durban or Pretoria, so i guess at the end of the day, the ANC just has to do it. No Afrikaner will agree with a name change of any of the big cities, they have been crying fawl even when the small towns get renamed. Change is inevitable and some may not like it, but its inevitable.

Cape Town won't see it's name change anytime soon since the DA is in control of it under mayor Helen Zille, who would not even consider renaming the Mother City when there are much more pressing needs like the housing backlog in that city.

Prioritys first, yesterdays Daily News says it all.

Tshwane is pronounced 'Tswane'. The "h" only quickens the pronunciation of the 'Tswa'.

Obviously Afrikaaners are Africans, as the majority of them were born and raised in Africa, although Afrikaans is not an African language. Afrikaans falls under the Indo-Aryan family of languages, not the Niger-Congo family of languages - which is native to all Sub-Saharan Africa.

HirikataShi, What are then North Africa languages Arabic included? if Afrikaans is not an African language as noted above then neither would be the Noth African languages which makes them also not Arfrican, its strange as the Arabains have been in North Africa since befre the Africans were there so technically its part of arabia not africa

:nuts: Hey bru you are back! Thank you for gracing us once again with your tirades. I fink weve got bigga problems than da changin of da city names! Da biggast problem here is that you, mister nixx, is still da part of da struggle. Da struggle to make sense and da struggle to spell.

Good luck with your banters.

They provide me with some comic relief.

wateva? tut tut

ha ha ha, you two crack me up or should that be Krak mee uup:nuts:

HirikataShi, What are then North Africa languages Arabic included? if Afrikaans is not an African language as noted above then neither would be the Noth African languages which makes them also not Arfrican, its strange as the Arabains have been in North Africa since befre the Africans were there so technically its part of arabia not africa

Arabic isn't an African language, it is from the Arabian peninsula, which is in Asia.
When you say North African languages, I assume you are referring to the Nilo-Saharan and Hamitic languages spoken in countries like Ethiopia, Somalia, Sudan, Chad, the Central African Republic, Burkina Faso, Mali, etc...? Although those are not Niger-Congo languages they still fall under the branch of languages that are exclusively African and have no links (with the exception of Amhara - a Semitic language) to any languages spoken outside of the continent.

well personally, i would imagine that some of SA's biggest cities would have to undergo name changes to reflect a more diverse and multi-racial south africa. i can bet you, there is going to be just as much outcry if you change, Joburg, Cape Town, Durban or Pretoria, so i guess at the end of the day, the ANC just has to do it. No Afrikaner will agree with a name change of any of the big cities, they have been crying fawl even when the small towns get renamed. Change is inevitable and some may not like it, but its inevitable.

from what I have read only Cape Town and Johannesburg will stay as is and all others Durban,PE, Slummies, Bloem, Maritzburg etc will all get new names in the future

You can say that Afrikaners are African but we can’t have an African Country with a European name as a capital, we will not accept that. When someone is brought up believing they are better then others, they tend to think of only their needs that’s why many whites are having hissy fits about Pretoria. Many Africans and Arabs have migrated to France but you don’t see French cities with African names, same goes for Holland, how many African or Arab named cities are in these two countries.
People bring up cost only when it supports their point, no one complains when most of the countries resources are spent on the privileged few but when the ANC does anything people talk of corruption. Many have mentioned Cape Town’s white mayor as someone who would not waste money on a name change, she is a beneficiary of the Apartheid system, just like all white South Africans. Cape Town will one day be a true African city where black people are treated with dignity in their own city and country. We all know that even with the end of Apartheid, thing have not really changed for Africans.

You can say that Afrikaners are African but we can’t have an African Country with a European name as a capital, we will not accept that. When someone is brought up believing they are better then others, they tend to think of only their needs that’s why many whites are having hissy fits about Pretoria. Many Africans and Arabs have migrated to France but you don’t see French cities with African names, same goes for Holland, how many African or Arab named cities are in these two countries.
People bring up cost only when it supports their point, no one complains when most of the countries resources are spent on the privileged few but when the ANC does anything people talk of corruption. Many have mentioned Cape Town’s white mayor as someone who would not waste money on a name change, she is a beneficiary of the Apartheid system, just like all white South Africans. Cape Town will one day be a true African city where black people are treated with dignity in their own city and country. We all know that even with the end of Apartheid, thing have not really changed for Africans.

Africanman, your issues are your issues. You argue that you cant have an African city with a European name?

1. Pretoria is not a European name - find me a similar name somewhere in europe.
2. So you cant have a European name, but you can have European influence in Africa? Arent you a bit of a hipocrit then?
3. European architecture in Africa - should it all be demolished because it is foreign? If European influences constantly offend you - destroy them all? All buildings, all universities with a history?
4. You cant erase history, even if you try. you can learn to learn from history. Destroying anything of offence will do little for African's sense of self-worth. You need to form a new identity - one that aknoledges the past without destroying a future.

Do you think africans were the only people ever to be ruled over by a foreign nation? Think again. Go and look at european history. Rome ruled over the Brittish at one stage~! The Chinese, the japanese, korea, egypt, ethopia, russia, poland, the ukraine - all invaded at some stage. Indonesia is not tearing down all dutch buildings all of the sudden.

History forms you, whether you like it or not. you cant wish away your history, and we have far more urgent things to worry about than to spend billions on erecting an alternative universe. If you have bad service delivery in Pretoria, why would tshwane be different? If civil servants dont care about the poor in Pretoria, why would they do so in Tshwane?

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet - they say. The fact though, you can change the name, but without addressing the reality of challenges, the mindsets and animosities nothing will be accomplished. Plus, you are telling people that only the rulers' opinions count - that it is OK to remove others from history. Isnt that new AFro-colonialism?

Change the names, but deal with the other issues as well. They want to change Potchefstroom's name to Thlokwe. Guess who protested? The black community, because they see the millions spent on this as a waste. They still use the bucket system - but a mayor only see his own little political war as important.

Take your Africa for the Africans message to some other forum. Your sectarian and racist statements are no different to those of apartheid's rulers in years back.

As for you slamming Cape Town's DA mayor Helen Zille, what is wrong with having one city controlled by the opposition while the rest are controlled by the ANC. You probably don't know that the DA mayor Helen Zille has opposed apartheid while she was a member of the ANC-aligned Mass Democratic Movement (MDM) when PW Botha was president. The people of Cape Town voted for the DA as a democratic expression of their disgust at the maladministration that took place when the ANC ruled the city from 2002-2006. Helen Zille is at ease working in black communities like Nyanga and Crossroads as well as she does with white and mixed-race suburbs. Helen Zille is an African as much as her black, coloured and white compatriots are regardless whether they vote for the ANC, DA, IFP or whoever. South Africa is in the words of former President Nelson Mandela a "rainbow nation for all."

And the people who are talking about corruption and maladministration also talked about the same things under apartheid when the NP was in power. The South African people, black and white, have the right to demand good governance and accountability from their elected represntatives at national, provincial and city level.

By the way things have changed alot for the better for black South Africans since 1994 although there is still more work to be done to alleviate poverty and unemployment. But the country in on the right track economically with GDP growth of 4.5% over the last three years and the fact that new jobs are being created. That is a result of the discipline shown by Finance Minister Trevor Manuel and SA Reserve Bank governor Tito Mboweni who successfully brought about this turnaround in economic fortunes due to fighting inflation and keeping government debt under control. This has been done by an ANC government that inherited a fiscal mess from the NP apartheid government. And Trevor and Tito are Africans too just like Helen Zille in Cape Town.


You can say that Afrikaners are African but we can’t have an African Country with a European name as a capital, we will not accept that. When someone is brought up believing they are better then others, they tend to think of only their needs that’s why many whites are having hissy fits about Pretoria. Many Africans and Arabs have migrated to France but you don’t see French cities with African names, same goes for Holland, how many African or Arab named cities are in these two countries.
People bring up cost only when it supports their point, no one complains when most of the countries resources are spent on the privileged few but when the ANC does anything people talk of corruption. Many have mentioned Cape Town’s white mayor as someone who would not waste money on a name change, she is a beneficiary of the Apartheid system, just like all white South Africans. Cape Town will one day be a true African city where black people are treated with dignity in their own city and country. We all know that even with the end of Apartheid, thing have not really changed for Africans.

Im sure this was a Pretoria thread :?

If you want to ban me go ahead but my point remains the same. Pretoria's name was changed because the majority of the people felt that they wanted the change. Government should do what the people want.
The only difference between the boers and the British is that the British left when they were defeated, the boers are just like the British the only difference is that more of them have chosen to stay in Africa. Many whites left South Africa and went to Canada and other countries when we finaly won independence, yes independence, because they were threatened by democracy, just like many on this site. We will never go back to the old days and we will continue to change this country to reflect our identity.

(1) Are you capetown?
(2) No one on this site has advocated a return to apartheid, if you want to argue with Apartheid-cheerleaders, go to YouTube. I've been arguing with deranged AWB-nuts and ex-Nats there for 5 months.
(3) Most white South Africans - Anglos and Afrikaaners - continue to reside in South Africa.
(4) :lock:

Let's just stop this and return to constructive ideas:) .

What will a name change mean for the city?
Is a name change necessary?
Is it possible to have a dual name for Pretoria?
Is the name Pretoria representative of all Pretorians and South Africans?
What is the History of the Name Pretoria?
Why was Tshwane chosen as the city's possible future name
:cheers: To you.....

This is not necessary, lets leave this topic to the politicians. Yes I would love to see most of the names change but the best thing is to spend those millions building houses and make that all of us are safe in our country. Changing names should be tha last priority on government list.

Pule my man! you said it best!

I agree with you Pule

If you want to ban me go ahead but my point remains the same. Pretoria's name was changed because the majority of the people felt that they wanted the change. Government should do what the people want.
The only difference between the boers and the British is that the British left when they were defeated, the boers are just like the British the only difference is that more of them have chosen to stay in Africa. Many whites left South Africa and went to Canada and other countries when we finaly won independence, yes independence, because they were threatened by democracy, just like many on this site. We will never go back to the old days and we will continue to change this country to reflect our identity.

Take your anal shot with you and go to hell!!

Oh I'd Rather
Live in Polokwane
Than in Pietersburg
And I'd rather go to Limpopo
Than to Northern Province
And I'd like to drive down Beyers Naude
or even Ngiyabonga Avenue
Than change gears in DF Malan
Even if its into first in a Z4 Roadster
I'd rather live in a home than a house
I'd rather work in a place than a space
I'd rather be free to live in the sky
Than work in a sharp cornered building made by someone who thought that imagination could come after something called housing
Hundertwasser said that the geometric straight line is the architect's crime against humanity. I agree. Of courese names are important.
Would you rather be - Mo - or Smith?
Of course your name is important. It is the sound of you. It is your mother and father's word for your heart. How do you create a beautiful memory for the buildings you are making? Not with a bank balance but with an idiosyncratic corner that does not fit. And a name that noone forgets.
Ya da da
There is no safety in a world without creative juice flowing free, sticky, interesting, argumentative, emotional.

seriously, enough with the poetry.
I come here for construction related topics & disscussion on SA, not a English lesson.

Really, what has this thread turned into :nuts:

Most people dont even seem to know whether Tshwane is the name of the municipality or the city as well! Seems like the SA gov has some clarification work to do eh?

When i think of name changes I always think of communist regimes (Leningrad, Ho Chi Min City etc.) or retarded dictators really! I think most of the world would frown at changing the name of most of your cities as well... And history is part of your country, whether you like it or not... All this 'uniting the country by changing city names' blabla, I dont believe it really.

Cheers

Well, at least London is not Londinium any more... And even the ausies are getting with it now - Ayres Rock is now officially Uluru.

To me, real men of action changes perceptions, they change attitudes, they change conditions. a name change without any of the above mean nothing. The living conditions did not improve with the name change (which cost billions). Women don't feel safer in Tswhane than in Pretoria.

It is like putting a nice white sheet over a rotted corpse and stating proudly that you have brought it back to life!

seriously, enough with the poetry.
I come here for construction related topics & disscussion on SA, not a English lesson.

Did you read what I wrote? Did you just see that it was written like a poem? It was a lesson in construction and identity. It said that names are significant to how people perceive and experience constructions.

okay... sorry , was having a one of those days yesterday.

my apologies for not reading it properly.

This thread is so entertaining.

Take your anal shot with you and go to hell!!

I don't know what an anal shot is, please let me know what it is since you seem to have some experience.
My point was to get a reaction from people on this site. Name changes happen all the time. Airport, highway and building names are changed almost daily all over the world. I don't think most South African whites are rasist but I noticed that whenever their is a change e.g Oliver Tambo Airport, many people seem to be opposed to it. My point is not to have everything renamed, that is pointless but national heroes have monuments etc named after them all the time. Shaka's father is a historical figure for Africa and even though many none Zulu's can't pronounce his name the population of Kwazulu chose to name the stadium after him, same goes for Tswane and Oliver Tambo. I think people feel threatened because things are changing to satisfy the wants of the rest of the population. All the names of large South African cities have European origins and we have to accept that this is due to colonization and aparteid, those are the facts. Since SA is now a independent, democratic country, changes will be made not to get back at the white/euro population but to reflect the identity of other citizens.
I got the reaction I expected, many white South Africans are proud to be South Africans but please remeber that Native Africans are proud oth their country too so when the elected government changes a name, don't take it personal, if it was, then all the cities, towns etc would have new names by now.

I don't know what an anal shot is, please let me know what it is since you seem to have some experience.
My point was to get a reaction from people on this site. Name changes happen all the time. Airport, highway and building names are changed almost daily all over the world. I don't think most South African whites are rasist but I noticed that whenever their is a change e.g Oliver Tambo Airport, many people seem to be opposed to it. My point is not to have everything renamed, that is pointless but national heroes have monuments etc named after them all the time. Shaka's father is a historical figure for Africa and even though many none Zulu's can't pronounce his name the population of Kwazulu chose to name the stadium after him, same goes for Tswane and Oliver Tambo. I think people feel threatened because things are changing to satisfy the wants of the rest of the population. All the names of large South African cities have European origins and we have to accept that this is due to colonization and aparteid, those are the facts. Since SA is now a independent, democratic country, changes will be made not to get back at the white/euro population but to reflect the identity of other citizens.
I got the reaction I expected, many white South Africans are proud to be South Africans but please remeber that Native Africans are proud oth their country too so when the elected government changes a name, don't take it personal, if it was, then all the cities, towns etc would have new names by now.
you shouldn't imply that the whites aren't natives. many people get offended by that.

^^ yes we do!

this is an issue that will never be resolved, for differing views on the matter are steadfastly stuck to.

I believe that changing names for the sake of it is uter waste especially for the damage it does to the existing brand value the city is losing. I'm in marketing and the most important goal of any brand is to foster goodwill and thereafter purchase. In the sense of cities that purchase is investment, be it economic, tourism or the like. Changing the name leads to confusion, loss of identity and is proven that it reduces flows of FDI. South African cities can ill afford these side effects while they are trying to pull their people out of poverty.

So racial and personal issues (even put the enormous cost to the cites and businesses) name changes are a very very dangerous thing to do, for a city could find itself completely off the economic map.

Evita proposed that the name be changed to Pretshwane.

hehehe... :lol:

lol

So native africans - are we on that again? When are you native? Its not enough that you were born in the country? So there are no native australians or americans left (north and south)? How many generations before you become a native?

In Vermont in the US they can be quite anal about native versus non-native vermonters. When I was working there a newspaper article appeared. A 95year-old granny died. The article started... Megan Pate died at the ripe old age of 95 at Collinwood's centre for the aged in Woodstock on tuesday. This NON-NATIVE Vermonter came to the beautiful state of Vermont just after her 4th birthday. She lived in vermont for 91 years, but they had to make it clear that she was not a native. Because she just wasnt.

^^ South Africa is a nation of immigrants. My ancestors moved southward in the 1700s. The Xhosa moved southward from 400 AD to 1600 AD. While I realise it isn't popular with the ANC to acknowledge that their ancestors moved to South Africa and are not indigenous to South Africa (just as certain Afrikaaner nationalists refuse to acknowledge that there were blacks in South Africa long before Dutch Huguenots arrived in the 17th century), it is the damn truth. The only "native" South Africans are a very very very small percentage of the overall population, if we want to play that game.

^^ South Africa is a nation of immigrants. My ancestors moved southward in the 1700s. The Xhosa moved southward from 400 AD to 1600 AD. While I realise it isn't popular with the ANC to acknowledge that their ancestors moved to South Africa and are not indigenous to South Africa (just as certain Afrikaaner nationalists refuse to acknowledge that there were blacks in South Africa long before Dutch Huguenots arrived in the 17th century), it is the damn truth. The only "native" South Africans are a very very very small percentage of the overall population, if we want to play that game.

I agree with you on that. Only the Khoi and the San were the original inhabitants of South Africa. The rest were immigrants including firstly the Bantu, then the whites, Malays and Indians followed.

Im a native, *click click, stok stlick stok click sqla*

this native game is so not kewl. i am black and i don't think i am more entitled to be a south african than anyone else whether they are white, green or pink. i guess sometimes this sort of thing might be difficult for people from the rest of the african continent to grasp because as far as they are concerned if you are white you a european and if you are black you are an african. this is often the case in Ghana where i have had the privilege of living and running a business there for a year now.

this native game is so not kewl. i am black and i don't think i am more entitled to be a south african than anyone else whether they are white, green or pink. i guess sometimes this sort of thing might be difficult for people from the rest of the african continent to grasp because as far as they are concerned if you are white you a european and if you are black you are an african. this is often the case in Ghana where i have had the privilege of living and running a business there for a year now.

Great discussion, I have to say that I respect the views of all the people who have made their feelings known, a democratic world is always better. I have lived in and visited many countries and I have to acknowledge that South Africa is probably the most unique because it has no “native” population to speak off. Most European countries and other African countries tend to have a large population that they consider native to the area. I don’t know who in Europe migrated from where but I do know that most Africans migrated from somewhere on the African continent. It’s great to know that South Africans do not have a problem that I have noticed in many places I have lived or visited, you all consider yourselves native to SA and that is commendable.

Dat is why we are the Rainbow nation silly :D

great pic of Pretorai on the banner today
Yay

Yawn we still on this topic, Illcome back when you have all worn yourselves out.
Strange how we seem to get these sort of threads every year with someother chap who thinks he speaks for the majority.
Ill be over in the positive section

^^Me to, & didnt this banner come up previously ? or are SSC doing a re-run of all the old banner's again?

Havent seen it myself... really nice. Congrats to old P-town for the great banner....

As I understand it Pretoria was founded by a Afrikanner called Pretorius, now they want to change the name, why? If it wasn't for him a city wouldn't even be there.

However, its all starting to make sense now. Changing place names is part of the slow but sure process of making whites feel foreign in their own country so they will eventually leave. But one must ask; why dosen't the ANC just skip a few steps and get to the point of kicking all white people out of the country, they shouldn't waste valuable time and money implementing early steps such as changing place names. Maybe its so it dosen't look so obvious and Zimbabweish.

As I understand it Pretoria was founded by a Afrikanner called Pretorius, now they want to change the name, why? If it wasn't for him a city wouldn't even be there.

However, its all starting to make sense now. Changing place names is part of the slow but sure process of making whites feel foreign in their own country so they will eventually leave. But one must ask; why dosen't the ANC just skip a few steps and get to the point of kicking all white people out of the country, they shouldn't waste valuable time and money implementing early steps such as changing place names. Maybe its so it dosen't look so obvious and Zimbabweish.

I'm sorry, but I think that that is a load of crap I'm white but I will say- Cause most people in SA are black the names should be balck names is you get what I mean.

I'm sorry, but I think that that is a load of crap I'm white but I will say- Cause most people in SA are black the names should be balck names is you get what I mean.

what da hell ppl?!?! its jus a flippin name! doesnt change anybin bout da city or wat so eva! now deir wastin millions of rands on changin lots of names while dey cud ratha help da flippin poor or sumfin..:ohno:

I just think its pointless tho', fine celebrate past hero's. If SA didnt have big problems like it has now, fine change Pretoria to Tshwane, make Joburg Mandela city, Durbs eThekweni, but SA has got issues which need to get sorted out, which needs funding inorder to sort it out. Rather spend those funds to sort these problems out.

I live in a city named Federal Way Washington. I would love to have our name changed.

My wife and I will be visiting South Africa this June and July and we look forward to visiting Tshwane.
Since the overwhelming majority of the people in South Aftica want to change the name, I am in total agreement. Other cities and countries have had name changes.

I live in a city named Federal Way Washington. I would love to have our name changed.

My wife and I will be visiting South Africa this June and July and we look forward to visiting Tshwane.
Since the overwhelming majority of the people in South Aftica want to change the name, I am in total agreement. Other cities and countries have had name changes.

oh jus make sure to bring a bodyguard wif ya!! da money dey cud hav used to improve fightin crime r bein used on changin place names:)

oh jus make sure to bring a bodyguard wif ya!! da money dey cud hav used to improve fightin crime r bein used on changin place names:)

Ya da spelling bodyguard needed with low iq person such as yous. No wonder u not find job - u cants talk properly.

Seriously, where are the administrators when you need them? Dear Nixxi, I promise not visit your little rascist, stupid-white-man, we-hate-blacks and democracy chatroom. Because I have nothing to add there. THIS IS A CONSTRUCTION AND DEVELOPMENT FORUM, visit boerevryheid if you feel the need to splurge your urge.

Can't we ban this wingnut? He hasnt said a word worth listening to yet. Dear NIXX, a good argument can win over even your most prolific opponents. It becomes clear that you have neither the savvy nor the intellectual capactiy to think up, let alone spel and construct such an argument.

Nixx_900816 has got serious issues, he's one of the most racist people to come around the South Africa and SSC|Africa forums since Mukkingfutz

I am so sorry my great fellow Africans. I am sorry for having a very low IQ, for not being able to spell correctly and not for being a racist, but for being a realistic person. Please forgive me, hopefully we will all be able to live and work together in this great continent of ours. :)

What happened in here?

I live in a city named Federal Way Washington. I would love to have our name changed.

My wife and I will be visiting South Africa this June and July and we look forward to visiting Tshwane.
Since the overwhelming majority of the people in South Aftica want to change the name, I am in total agreement. Other cities and countries have had name changes.

Please understand, that I do agree that name changes have to take place sooner or later, but what comes first is service delivery, & the rights of the very people that have brought the current rulers into power are being neglected, post 94 they promised free houses with electricty & running water for EVERYONE, up till now there is still shack settlements everywhere, people are frustrated of waiting, so hence the stealing & looting begin, where some people who already have houses are being forced out by other's & water mains being re-routed to shack settlements & Live Elec cables being damaged & extra illegal connections are being made.

The millions that go into name changing is scary, those very millions could be used to better the housing conditions for these people, maybe the crime rate might drop when issues like this are sorted out?

I just think its pointless to ignore these people & see money being used to change names than to see to the very people that brought them into power.

I am so sorry my great fellow Africans. I am sorry for having a very low IQ, for not being able to spell correctly and not for being a racist, but for being a realistic person. Please forgive me, hopefully we will all be able to live and work together in this great continent of ours. :)

Now that is the attitude! Rascism is of course very realistic. Bru, get the picture - SSC does not have a forum that is concerned with your realistic rascism. There are many forums that will cater to your taste though...

Try kappiekommando, boerevryheid, praag or transvaler... There you can be realistic to your hearts content... Us, your great fellow? Africans will continue on our little dream line here. You came here to hijack a forum, hoping to spread your little vile of venom. Realistically, it is only this little ukrainian that is giving attention to you (now thats me). The rest seem to be ignoring you already. I will do the same.

Pretoria to stay Pretoria for now

Jordan has assured AfriForum that Pretoria's name will not change until he decides otherwise

May 08, 2007, 22:30

AfriForum, a civil rights group, says Pallo Jordan, the arts and culture minister, has assured them at talks that the country's capital remains Pretoria until he decides otherwise.

The group met Jordan in Pretoria to discuss latest attempts to change the city's name to Tshwane City. Kallie Kriel, an AfriForum spokesperson, says Jordan has told AfriForum he will not make a decision on a name change for Pretoria while emotions are running high on the issue. He says the same ruling applies to Potchefstroom.

Last week the Tshwane metropolitan council said Pretoria was only a suburb on Tshwane.

http://www.sabcnews.com/south_africa/general/0,2172,148673,00.html

UNITL HE DECIDES, what is this a dictatorship and one man decides these things. I would have thought it would have been a public issue

UNITL HE DECIDES, what is this a dictatorship and one man decides these things. I would have thought it would have been a public issue

Welcome to the New SA

great seems like the old SA but with different faces making the important decitions for ALL of us

Welcome to the New SA

He can't change the name unilatterally, he has the backing of the majority of the SA population. Many SA whites are quick to say how African they are but if we look at the big picture, we all know that they can migrate to England, Canada and the USA alot easier than Black Africans. I know that many in the white community have not yet adjusted to having black people make some decisions. The slums were around when 20years aho and I doubt that many who are complaining about name changes were complaining about the previlaged lifestiles they enjoyed at the expence of the majority of the population.
SA might be a diverse country, so is England, USA and France but you those countries do not have African names for major cities, I wonder why...

gyAqBPiJArc

The name will change to Tshwane. It is the botched process of the way it was handled by the previous ANC mayor and the controversies of the SABC, etc. But the name Pretoria will not stay for long. It not an issue of if it will change but when and there needs to be a proper process of consultation on the next go around. Personally I think they should keep the name Pretoria but the ANC will never drop this politically-motivated issue.

gyAqBPiJArc

Nice vid! Good to see that young people are actually standing up to protect their afrikaner cultural heritage, in a democratic and positive way! I always thought Pots and Stellenbosch were the only universities where education was in afrikaans, apperantly not.
Is the discussion about English at undergraduate and graduate level, or just at graduate level? Education at graduate level in english is pretty common in alot of places these days I guess!

Nice vid! Good to see that young people are actually standing up to protect their afrikaner cultural heritage, in a democratic and positive way! I always thought Pots and Stellenbosch were the only universities where education was in afrikaans, apperantly not.
Is the discussion about English at undergraduate and graduate level, or just at graduate level? Education at graduate level in english is pretty common in alot of places these days I guess!

I think you can stand up to protect your cultural heritage without excluding others - which is what happens to a very large extent. The video made me very worried concerning growing polarisation in SA politics. And this video is (to me at least) nothing more than propoganda by an increasingly marginal, outdated, aggressive and xenophobic FFplus. You have a chance to protect what is dear to you, without slamming everyone that is different from you.

And what's the deal with the dramatic music? Hectic... Feels like a bad hollywood movie - que the music, we are making a point. The old flag, the vierkleur, die stem - I refuse to be emotionally manipulated into giving those old symbols a moments notice! OK, die stem will prob remain, and thats fine - but the vierkleur and the oranjeblanje will never do anything for me. And it is sad that young people with future promise hang onto these relics. They have no idea what system those symbols supported. They get drunk in clubs and sing "die stem" like it is a rock song - little knowing how oppressed we were under that flag! under the old flag we would not have been able to work abroad, play sports abroad. Our economy was in tatters. We were banning films, music, books and thoughts left and right -NO FREE SPEECH! We were at war. We were the pariahs of the world.

And now? Yes, crime is high - but it has always been high - it only recently spilled over into the quiet suburbs. The new regime makes me mad as a hat most days - but that does not mean I long to go back to the good old days where you could get everything just because you happened to be afrikaans.

Mad as a hatter? Wrong terminology. So although the new regime drives me crazy... they also make mad and angry. But still we are better off now than under PW finger and the banning of all things un-afrikaans. Afrikaans was a state-subsidised language - and it almost died because of it.

Now, in this hard day and age?
1. More afrikaans tv shows (growing by the minute)
2. More afrikaans musicians than ever -and they make MILLIONS. Just 20years ago progressive rock bands were banned for being too liberal, today we have FOKOFPOLISIKAR
3. More afrikaans books published than ever before - and this is a fact

So don't come to me with crap about your language dying. It is the speakers fault is a language dies, not the non-speakers fault. I speak afrikaans fluently, and I have been to Pretoria students meetings where afrikaners refuse to speak english even though many people understand nothing! How clueless is that?!!

And you complain because you can't study a university course in your first language? It is an english world, and if you are professional you will need to work in english - so might as well study in the language that they speak in the UK, seeing as though so many afrikaners flock there in any case.

That's my little tirade for the day.

Can't stand people with a victim mentality. the world is not fair, it is up to you to make it work. Just because the government of the day refuses to crawl up your arse does not mean your language is about to die.

I'm not from South Africa, I'm from Holland. So I'm an outsider in this discussion, and obvioiusly, I don't understand all the rhetoric and symbolism in that video.

To me it looks like young people getting enthousiastic for a right case; if the FF was a marginalized group, why did 60% of the students vote for it in the university elections, as the video says? Seems to me they just want education that suits there needs better.

There is nothing wrong with being proud of your own culture and language. Afrikaners sure have this dark past of apartheid, but that should be no reason to not be proud of it.

And it's not an English world we live in. It's a world with alot of different languages, you should know that if you're from South Africa. Whats wrong with people wanting education in their mother language? As i said, I can totaly understand the need for education in English at graduate level, since literature and research are also often in English at that level. But at undergraduate level, it's another thing.

Look at Europe, we're not English. In Spain, there are Catalan and Basque universities, in Finland, there is a Swedish university etc.

And if the world is not fair, and it's up to yourself to make it work, isn't that exactly what the students in the video are doing???

I'm not from South Africa, I'm from Holland. So I'm an outsider in this discussion, and obvioiusly, I don't understand all the rhetoric and symbolism in that video.

To me it looks like young people getting enthousiastic for a right case; if the FF was a marginalized group, why did 60% of the students vote for it in the university elections, as the video says? Seems to me they just want education that suits there needs better.

There is nothing wrong with being proud of your own culture and language. Afrikaners sure have this dark past of apartheid, but that should be no reason to not be proud of it.

And it's not an English world we live in. It's a world with alot of different languages, you should know that if you're from South Africa. Whats wrong with people wanting education in their mother language? As i said, I can totaly understand the need for education in English at graduate level, since literature and research are also often in English at that level. But at undergraduate level, it's another thing.

Look at Europe, we're not English. In Spain, there are Catalan and Basque universities, in Finland, there is a Swedish university etc.

And if the world is not fair, and it's up to yourself to make it work, isn't that exactly what the students in the video are doing???

UP is majority afrikaans, and believe me as an outsider (non-afrikaans) that is made clear to you. The FFplus has very little representation nationally, but at UP they win every year by spreading fear amongst white afrikaans students concerning crime, death of afrikaans etc. UP has close to 50 000 students. Many don't participate in the campus election. The FF wins every year by spreading stuff like this. Last year roughly 10% of students voted during the election. Which means although they have 60% of the vote, they are not representative...

Afrikaans is not a dead language. I love the language - it is so intricate and creative! But many of these conservative right wingers refuse to share their language - making people hate them. The afrikaner is victim of stereotyping at many times - but they help to sustain these stereotypes.

And in South Africa - we speak mostly english in the workplace - it is the only common denominator between 11 languages. And at UP you are always welcome (with most varsity courses) to write in afrikaans should your english fail during an exam. Most first year afrikaans students can have class in afrikaans. Many choose not to. The text books are english, so actually it is easier to do everything in english.

Many afrikaans people complain more than doing anything else. And this is what the video is about. About afrikaans suffering, marginalisation and so on. It is a call to bring back the safety of the old regime.

Afrikaans is a vibrant language, beautiful in its simplicity. unfortunately messages such as this has the opposite effect. it negatively stereotypes afrikaners as rascist. Which (I want to believe) the majority of them are not.

This video just struck a chord in my heart. It upset me. Because immediately it brought back the memories of afrikaans people making sure that you know you are not one of them. I don't usually react this emotionally on an issue, but one thing (according to me) is clear...

Polarisation and racial stereotyping will not benefit us in south africa. I too am often keen to think in terms of reductionist racial stereotypes (like i do when talking about afrikaners or the FFplus). But in the long run it will destroy us. This video has a very dark undertone - an undertone of continual racial segregation and isolation. Pride in what you are can often be the foundation stone for radical, violent nationalism. And in SA not only the Afrikaners are guilty of this! Be proud of your heritage and culture - but we must make sure that we don't allow this pride to seperate us from fellow human beings.

Just a side note - I think it is unfair of me to say afrikaners do this or that. The vast majority of afrikaans people are incredible and open and friendly. In my piece above when I talk about afrikaans people in a negative sense, please understand that I am referring to a very small right wing minority. Even at UP the majority of afrikaans students are happy to be integrated into the larger SA community - but as in all cases, a small bitter enclave can spoil the picture. And unfortunately negative stereotypes are always based on the minority within a given group.

Afrikaans people are wonderful - but there are a few of them (like in all groups everywhere) that really gets on my nerves!

OK, I think I am a bit too emotional about this issue.

Joop, thank you for your inputs, and it was never my intention to attack you or ridicule anything you said. It is a complicated topic, laden with hidden traps and perceptions. So I think I should be careful not to fall victim to my own prejudice!

I didn't want to say anything because I assumed Joop was an Afrikaaner and I did not want to inflame tensions. Joop, did you listen to the lyrics of that song?
Especially the part from 2:23 - 2:08 (counting downward)? It's the only reason I posted this vid here. You can also go to the YouTube message board where I posted this from and see the comments that have been left there.

Thanks for your replies guys. Obviously, I was not aware that the vryhydsfront is kind of an extreme right party, and I dont know alot about the current situation of Afrikaans in South Africa. It's interesting to hear opinions on this subject though!

I tried to understand what the guy was singing in the video, but I couldnt make much of it besides the city names. Since I'm from Holland, reading Afrikaans is easy, but understanding it in songs or conversations is something different :D

Oh yeah, i read the comments on YouTube, your comment was no good either, HirakataShi!

Nice vid! Good to see that young people are actually standing up to protect their afrikaner cultural heritage, in a democratic and positive way! I always thought Pots and Stellenbosch were the only universities where education was in afrikaans, apperantly not.
Is the discussion about English at undergraduate and graduate level, or just at graduate level? Education at graduate level in english is pretty common in alot of places these days I guess!

FVCK THEM ALL AND WHEN WE ARE DONE WITH THEM THEY WILL BEG TO LEAVE.

FVCK THEM ALL AND WHEN WE ARE DONE WITH THEM THEY WILL BEG TO LEAVE.

You can get in trouble for this bro. And a part of me wants to make sure you do. But then, I realise you must have a very small intellectual capacity. Only that can explain your debating skills.

So you hate whites?
You want to kill whites?
Shame, hard to be anti-rascist, ne?

Grow up. And as a side note. IF YOUR ARGUMENT MAKES NO SENSE
(politically, grammatically or socially) WRITING IT ALL IN BIG CAPITAL LETTERS DOES NOT MAKE IT MORE COHERENT!

FVCK THEM ALL AND WHEN WE ARE DONE WITH THEM THEY WILL BEG TO LEAVE.

Mukkingfutz? Is that you?

"Welcome to South Africa, watch yo' back cracka'!" is NOT the tourism message Mzantsi needs.

You can get in trouble for this bro. And a part of me wants to make sure you do. But then, I realise you must have a very small intellectual capacity. Only that can explain your debating skills.

So you hate whites?
You want to kill whites?
Shame, hard to be anti-rascist, ne?

Grow up. And as a side note. IF YOUR ARGUMENT MAKES NO SENSE
(politically, grammatically or socially) WRITING IT ALL IN BIG CAPITAL LETTERS DOES NOT MAKE IT MORE COHERENT!

I bet you liked that video, those individuals parents killed and maimed us for years. It’s a new day now, we will not be intimidated by thugs, who think they have more rights than Africans. My response was directed at the individuals who made the video but your reaction shows that you are one of them. During apartheid, these racist’s parents relied on fear as the way to control us but we are not afraid, you have a right to your superiority complex but we will do as we please and if you don’t like it, follow your fellow racists out of the country.

So Pretoria will stay Pretoria? Cheers to some sensibility. How are things in the Capital?

^^
So will it stay Pretoria or not? I'm confused now... has there been any official statement on the matter?

You can say that Afrikaners are African but we can’t have an African Country with a European name as a capital, we will not accept that. When someone is brought up believing they are better then others, they tend to think of only their needs that’s why many whites are having hissy fits about Pretoria. Many Africans and Arabs have migrated to France but you don’t see French cities with African names, same goes for Holland, how many African or Arab named cities are in these two countries.
People bring up cost only when it supports their point, no one complains when most of the countries resources are spent on the privileged few but when the ANC does anything people talk of corruption. Many have mentioned Cape Town’s white mayor as someone who would not waste money on a name change, she is a beneficiary of the Apartheid system, just like all white South Africans. Cape Town will one day be a true African city where black people are treated with dignity in their own city and country. We all know that even with the end of Apartheid, thing have not really changed for Africans.


:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

If indians have lived here for generations, they are african. The cubans, italians, mexicans that have gone to america are considered americans.

Just because the afrikaners roots are european, doesnt make them not indigenous. There are no native afrikaners in europe, there identity and culture were formulated in this land.

You have a narrow mind if you believe that African only equals Black.

HAHAHAHA!! You really think the Afrikkaners are natives of Africa like the Irish are natives of Ireland?!?!?!

why the hell is it a hard concept to grasp that Afrikaners are African? Are you saying that black Americans are not American just because they are a minority? Afrikaans is an indigenous language to South Africa and is not spoken anywhere else in the world therefore it is African.

Wow, the nerve of some people. They are NOT true Africans! They are invaders who took the land and oppressed the people! What, you think the Zulu/Xhosa's and the AfriKKKaners are brothers now?

Come on... How ignorant are you? If white south africans aren't africans, then what are they??
Ethnic Europeans mostly from Dutch extraction.

How about Australians? Are aboriginals the only Australians, the rest are just exported Europeans??

Damn staight! Just like what the Afrikkans/Americans did, they pushed the Natives off of THIER LAND and into some crappy ass third world reservation/slum.

Khalfani, of course some aspects of the colonisation process are pretty sickening, but perpetuating hatred between people on the basis of "who was here first" is just as wrong. Our world was shaped by people migration. Xosas themselves originate from the great lake region and are thought to have migrated to southern africa around 800 (as part of the Nguny migration). For some reason you seem to beleive that the world would be a better place if you reversed all migations that occured in the last millenium, or century ? That is rather arbitrary and it's also completly irrelevant is the current geo-political context.

You can get in trouble for this bro. And a part of me wants to make sure you do. But then, I realise you must have a very small intellectual capacity. Only that can explain your debating skills.

So you hate whites?
You want to kill whites?
Shame, hard to be anti-rascist, ne?

Grow up. And as a side note. IF YOUR ARGUMENT MAKES NO SENSE
(politically, grammatically or socially) WRITING IT ALL IN BIG CAPITAL LETTERS DOES NOT MAKE IT MORE COHERENT!

1- I can get in trouble and you, mr almighty, can make sure I do....
Aparteid is done and barried so you can't call the security police on the kaffirs.
2- small interllectual capacity- I know how you feel, these blacks don't seem to understand that they are inferior, changing names and trying to go to university. This is a right for the european, sorry " white africans" because they are superior interllectually and morally. They have been nice enough to let us have a black president but we seem to expect more than that.

^^
I think you need help... you just don't see how you became the kind of racist you despise, just the other way round.

How old are you Africanman

Correction: Xhosas arrived in South Africa from 400AD.

Anyway, nothing that Jakes said was in anyway remotely racist or anti-Black. His comments were specifically directed toward "africanman" and not Africans or Blacks in general.

Finally: :lock: :lock:

Anyway, nothing that Jakes said was in anyway remotely racist or anti-Black. His comments were specifically directed toward "africanman" and not Africans or Blacks in general.


Yeah but the racist card always comes out handy when a troll runs out of arguments to use against people.

Correction: Xhosas arrived in South Africa from 400AD.

Anyway, nothing that Jakes said was in anyway remotely racist or anti-Black. His comments were specifically directed toward "africanman" and not Africans or Blacks in general.

Finally: :lock: :lock:

The Nguni peoples which include Xhosas and Zulus may have arrived as early as 300 AD although the Khoi-Khoi and San peoples were there first during BC times. If I am not correct the Venda people in Limpopo province are Hamitic like those in Ethiopia and they arrived in early AD.

Whites on the otherhand did not come until 1652 when the first European settlement was established at the Cape by the Dutch (later to become Afrikaners), while the English arrived in 1795 at Algoa Bay (present-day Port Elizabeth).

^^
I think you need help... you just don't see how you became the kind of racist you despise, just the other way round.

I need help... it's great to know that you are so conserned. What kind of help do you suggest I get...please don't send me to prison master or don't bulldoze my house..we are all African.
It's very strange that Europeans can migrate to Africa and feel that they are natives of the continent but when Africans are born in Europe they are considered citizens but not natives. Is their a reason for this or does transplanted nativity only apply to the African continent. The American argument does not hold water because white and black Americans understand that they are immigrants some willing while others came in chains. They at least know that American Indians are the Natives. I never met a native African east indian, native African Frenchman or a native African chinese but I guess they will accept us as Natives if we just move to India, France or China and decide that we are Natives. Henry is considered French but of guanese decent, Vieira is a French citizen but they always point out that he is of Sengalize decent.

Man you're really obsessed, I don't know if you're normally like this or you come here just to troll, but if you're usually like this I think you should see a therapist, it's not healthy to be so full of hate.

"What kind of help do you suggest I get...please don't send me to prison master or don't bulldoze my house..we are all African."
That was just sick...

As I understand it Pretoria was founded by a Afrikanner called Pretorius, now they want to change the name, why? If it wasn't for him a city wouldn't even be there.

However, its all starting to make sense now. Changing place names is part of the slow but sure process of making whites feel foreign in their own country so they will eventually leave. But one must ask; why dosen't the ANC just skip a few steps and get to the point of kicking all white people out of the country, they shouldn't waste valuable time and money implementing early steps such as changing place names. Maybe its so it dosen't look so obvious and Zimbabweish.


Same logic as saying that some white guy discovered Mount Kilimanjaro as if no one else had seen it before. How do you know that no one lived their at the time.

Man you're really obsessed, I don't know if you're normally like this or you come here just to troll, but if you're usually like this I think you should see a therapist, it's not healthy to be so full of hate.

"What kind of help do you suggest I get...please don't send me to prison master or don't bulldoze my house..we are all African."
That was just sick...

Yes indeed, very sick. You say I am a racist, that’s fine since I don’t really care what you think. A major problem in Africa is our need to pacify individuals who do not have our best interests at heart. You say that the ANC has not built housing for the African population, I thank you for your concern and I hope you expressed the same outrage when De Boer (who is rotting in hell if there is one) was lining your pockets with stolen wealth. It’s very easy to say “get along”, “that is the past” when you benefited and continue to benefit from the ills of the past.
What differentiated the Afrikaners from the rest of the population and allowed them to live in the so called 1st world while others toiled in abject poverty. The vast majority of “Afrikaners” are from Holland in Europe and they made a conscious effort to relocate to Africa, they are what we Africans call settlers, illegal immigrants in today’s terms. When you decide to come off your high horse where you think you are entitled to tell us what we should be happy with and how much we should move on, then we can have a true discussion about the plight of SA

Gents, I don't think we need this kind of discussion in this forum. Are we talking about develeopments in South Africa or what?


Africanman my brother, you are welcomed to the forum and you must know that I'm black and have never ever experienced any recial insult or whatsoever by my fellows South African forumers. Yes we might be having a difference based on cities but nothing to an extent of what you influencing here. I urge you to please stop these and contribute posetively to this forum.

All people here are die hearts South Africans and some of the are adores of our country even though they are based around the world. To all you other gents, I urge you to stop responding to this kind of statements with immediate effect.

My grandfather was in jail for years, my father was in detention and my family had to relocate to another African country where I was born so don't tell me to stop because you are black. Aparteid many not have had a major impact on your life but it did on mine and I have a right to be angry when people post video's that support the rigime that totured my family. I will not post here anymore so you do not have to worry about me spoiling the phoney discussion.

You should know that everybody in this forum is against what has been done to your family, do you honestly believe anyone here would support or even justify those brutal acts?
You surely have a right to be angry when you see something that touches you personally as apparently it was the case, but you don't have the right to insult people here and blame them for something they did not do.

I am talking to you in good faith, I swear, and I'm not looking for confrontation. If you're angry, you need to calm down for a sec and keep in mind that nobody here supports what the Apartheid regime did to your family. You just have to read their posts to see it.

And please don't play the victim role saying you will not post here anymore, you're going to make it sound as if anyone was censoring you here, which is not the case. But you will understand it is not acceptable that you come and insult people the way you do, you know? Please try to think of what I said, you'll see nobody here is against you, but you need to behave and respect the other forumers if you want to be respected.

whoa..havent read this thread before...calm down guys or ill have to fire some "warning shots"

My grandfather was in jail for years, my father was in detention and my family had to relocate to another African country where I was born so don't tell me to stop because you are black. Aparteid many not have had a major impact on your life but it did on mine and I have a right to be angry when people post video's that support the rigime that totured my family. I will not post here anymore so you do not have to worry about me spoiling the phoney discussion.

I don't think that's an excuse bro, my father and brother suffered under the apartheid regime. Are you aware that Nelson Rolihlahla Madiba spent 27 years in Jail and the first thing he told is to forget the past and build our future that doesn't have any room for racism. Do you know that the Apartheid regime killed President Thabo Mbeki's son and he also encourage irradication of racism?


There's no excuse to what you doing bro, yes I feel your pain but this forum is about a different issue. Just give these guys a break, they are part of the Rainbow nation.

If I am not correct the Venda people in Limpopo province are Hamitic like those in Ethiopia and they arrived in early AD.


Egads! No we are not hamites! Look at Venda's physical appearance and compare it to the Ethiopians. There is no similarity. Venda did originate in Eastern Africa, and may have had some contact with hamitic people (hence, most do not eat pork). A sub-group from the Venda practice Judaism and claim ancient Judean descent, but the closest relation to the Venda are the Shona. My dad and most of my relatives speak Shona fluently.

You should know that everybody in this forum is against what has been done to your family, do you honestly believe anyone here would support or even justify those brutal acts?
You surely have a right to be angry when you see something that touches you personally as apparently it was the case, but you don't have the right to insult people here and blame them for something they did not do.

I am talking to you in good faith, I swear, and I'm not looking for confrontation. If you're angry, you need to calm down for a sec and keep in mind that nobody here supports what the Apartheid regime did to your family. You just have to read their posts to see it.

And please don't play the victim role saying you will not post here anymore, you're going to make it sound as if anyone was censoring you here, which is not the case. But you will understand it is not acceptable that you come and insult people the way you do, you know? Please try to think of what I said, you'll see nobody here is against you, but you need to behave and respect the other forumers if you want to be respected.

Thank you for for this posting

Egads! No we are not hamites! Look at Venda's physical appearance and compare it to the Ethiopians. There is no similarity. Venda did originate in Eastern Africa, and may have had some contact with hamitic people (hence, most do not eat pork). A sub-group from the Venda practice Judaism and claim ancient Judean descent, but the closest relation to the Venda are the Shona. My dad and most of my relatives speak Shona fluently.

Did you used to live in Zimbabwe.

I don't think that's an excuse bro, my father and brother suffered under the apartheid regime. Are you aware that Nelson Rolihlahla Madiba spent 27 years in Jail and the first thing he told is to forget the past and build our future that doesn't have any room for racism. Do you know that the Apartheid regime killed President Thabo Mbeki's son and he also encourage irradication of racism?


There's no excuse to what you doing bro, yes I feel your pain but this forum is about a different issue. Just give these guys a break, they are part of the Rainbow nation.

Agreed. Nelson Mandela and Thabo Mbeki are great leaders that have contributed much to bringing peace and political stability to SA when we all feared a civil war before the transition apartheid and white minority rule to a fully-fledged multi-racial democracy. Were it not for them I do not know where SA would be today.

Did you used to live in Zimbabwe.

No. I've never been there.

Haha, look what this innocent tread i started has become! Please lock it, people are making sick comments here. I wonder why Africaman hasn't been banned yet? People get banned on SSC for alot less offending things that he said!

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

But afrikaans are always the bad guys in Mel Gibson movies! All white and white haired and muscly, and evil. So I vote for Tshwane.

Now who's gonna show some Tshwane snow pics?!?! Or were you too busy looking at that boring video?

We didnt really have any lasting snow in Tshwane. it started snowing just after 1 in Centurion, closer to Johannesburg (but still in Tshwane) but then the rain, sleet and hail followed. Pretoria is on a lower altitude compared to Jozi, and thus always 2 - 3 degrees warmer. The last time pretoria had snow was in 1968.

This thread is shocking! Removed and guilty parties have been dealt with.