I have read quite a few claims on this forum that Orlando has more Office Square footage than Tampa in the CBD. I stumbled upon the GVA Advantis ( site: http://www.advantisgva.com ) site this evening which seems to indicate that downtown Tampa has more leasable office space than Orlando - which again, is not what I have read many users on here claim.

Just thought I would share:

Tampa CBD Rentable SQFT: 6,903,331
Orlando CBD Rentable SQFT: 6,414,772
Westshore Rentable SQFT: 11,332,107
St. Petersburg CBD: 2,309,338
Gateway: 3,337,996

Tampa Total (Hillsborough County): 30,829,627
St. Petersburg Total (Pinellas County): 12,441,166
Orlando Total (Orange, Seminole and Osceola Counties): 32,375,943
(Pasco County not included.)

Tampa: (3rd Quarter 2006 Data)
http://www.advantisgva.com/filedownload.asp?id=305

Orlando: (2nd Quarter 2006 Data)
http://www.advantisgva.com/filedownload.asp?id=282

St. Petersburg: (3rd Quarter 2006 Data)
http://www.advantisgva.com/filedownload.asp?id=330

Interesting. I suppose it may depend on how "downtown" is defined in determining which one has more in its downtown. However, on a metro scale, I would've guessed Tampa Bay had more office space just from driving around the area.

Moved this into a better place for mutual discussion.

One stat that is missing is how much space is Owner Occupied and therefore not considered leasable space.

Ok, How can Tampa only claim to Hillsborough County alone, but Orlando gets to claim three counties? Tell me how this works.

What exactly is "Leasable" supposed to include or exclude, b/c it looks like they are EXCLUDING all educational, agency, civic, and medical office square footage which is county/city/fed/state related. And Orlando has a boatload of that office space in DT, in several different properties:

1. OUC
2. OC Cthse (that's over 1.2 million square feet alone)
3. Fed Cthse#1
4. Orange Co. Admin. Bldg.
5. City Hall
6. CNL's City Hall-leased space
7. FAMU
8. UCF Digital Media School
9. Lynx HQ
10. Orange County History Ctr. (former Cthse)

... there's more


Also, why isn't Lake County included in those stats, that's been part of the metro for years?

As for the metro numbers, we already know Tampa has more office space. We've known that from the other study based on 2004 figures.

Nobody's made "claims" about office space; it emanates from a post made a year ago from a study based on 2004 numbers.

I have read quite a few claims on this forum that Orlando has more Office Square footage than Tampa in the CBD. I stumbled upon the GVA Advantis ( site: http://www.advantisgva.com ) site this evening which seems to indicate that downtown Tampa has more leasable office space than Orlando - which again, is not what I have read many users on here claim.

Yeah, I guess we all made that stuff up.

try www.colliers.com for the Colliers International US Real Estate Review for the 2004 and 2005 numbers.

I haven't checked for an updated report for 2006 yet b/c I wasted my time looking up the post that had the info you couldn't bear to believe was true.

Orlando: 8,176,000
Tampa: 7,856,000

this was the 2004 report data for downtowns. it's a rather large PDF file.

Orlando: 10,242,000
Tampa: 7,864,000

This was the 2005 numbers.

Grow up. Nobody made it up. If you just spend a little time researching the issue instead of throwing accusations around, there wouldn't be so much BS on these boards.

In fact, I went back to that website for the 3rd Quarter 2006 numbers for both cities. Here's some more unsubstantiated claims by an Orlando forumer regarding downtown office space:

Orlando: 10,562,476, with 653,909 UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Tampa: 7,924,745, with 85,000 under construction

phew
but regardless of which downtown has more office space, why be on a witch hunt to prove orlando forumers wrong? Oh wait, we're all here to lie and make false accusations to make ourselves feel superior to Tampa in some way.
I know this really adds nothing to this particular debate, but imo is just another reason why orlando forumers participate so little on this site.

No one has answered my question!! I want to know how Orlando can claim 3 counties and we only count one.

No one has answered my question!! I want to know how Orlando can claim 3 counties and we only count one.
Seriously I understand your question. To really answer it, you have to ask: are we talking about the cities of Orlando and Tampa or are we talking about the MSA's of Orlando and Tampa. If we are talking MSA's then Tampa could claim Hillsborough, Pinellas, Pasco and Hernando. Orlando could claim Orange, Osceola, Lake and Seminole.

There is a link that shows all the MSA's in America. It's a pretty large GIF but that should help. If you look closely at the map, you can see official boundary lines for the municipalities which may include multiple cities.

http://www.census.gov/geo/www/maps/msa_maps2004/msa2004_previews_htm/cbsa_us_wall_1104.htm

Yeah, I guess we all made that stuff up..

I happened to see a study with conflicting information from that claim. It is nothing personal. I posted someone elses numbers to the web page. I personally have not taken inventory of the office space in Tampa or Orlando.


try www.colliers.com for the Colliers International US Real Estate Review for the 2004 and 2005 numbers.

Thanks for posting this for me, I will definately take the time to read it.


I haven't checked for an updated report for 2006 yet b/c I wasted my time looking up the post that had the info you couldn't bear to believe was true.


A.) Thanks again for taking the time to do that - but I did not ASK you to so if you feel that it was a waste of time I suggest that you don't do it next time.

B.) Your characterization that I could not "bear" this to be true is not correct. To Quite the Contrary, I had heard this claim from not just you, but from Jasonhouse as well. I took it at face value and as fact. I was surprised by the data that I found, and wanted to share it with everyone.


Grow up. Nobody made it up. If you just spend a little time researching the issue instead of throwing accusations around, there wouldn't be so much BS on these boards.

I think you are out of line. I am comfortable with my maturity and demeanor in this matter. I did not accuse anyone of anything. I even left room for doubt in my original post. Go back and read it. It simply says, that the report "seems to indicate that downtown Tampa has more leasable office space than Orlando". I did not "throw any accusations around" and frankly, I did do research. I posted numbers that I found from a reputable real estate firm.

I simply stated as fact what one study reported on. Nothing more.

phew
but regardless of which downtown has more office space, why be on a witch hunt to prove orlando forumers wrong? Oh wait, we're all here to lie and make false accusations to make ourselves feel superior to Tampa in some way.
I know this really adds nothing to this particular debate, but imo is just another reason why orlando forumers participate so little on this site.

I am not on a witch hunt. Nor was I even intentionally searching for information about Orlando or Even Tampa Office Space for that matter. Since you are accusing me with out even knowing... I feel obliged to defend myself. I happened to be searching for information about an Office development in St. Petersburg, when I came across the St. Petersburg Office Inventory. Tracing it back to the main site I came across the Tampa and Orlando documents.

I have done nothing here but post data from some GVA Advantis publications. Both you and JZ are reacting a bit defensively in my opinion

but imo is just another reason why orlando forumers participate so little on this site.

Again, I just stated facts from a study. I certainly hope that a post which is well documented and factual (At least by whatever definitions of Office Space and CBD's area that it uses) would not keep Orlando forumers from participating on this entire website!

If people have other statistics in agreement, or disagreement with these. I welcome them. If you are certain these numbers are incorrect - then be confident and disagree... and offer a link to another study.

What exactly is "Leasable" supposed to include or exclude, b/c it looks like they are EXCLUDING all educational, agency, civic, and medical office square footage which is county/city/fed/state related.

After reading the colliers study, I agree that the difference appears to be what is considered part of the office market. But in addition, I think that Colliers defines the Orlando 'CBD/Downtown' area as a larger area than GVA Advantis.

Unfortunately, the GVA Advantis report does not show a map like the Colliers study does. So that just leaves us guessing as to why these two sources of information are in disagreement.

I don't understand what the problem was with this topic.


some of you people need to CHILL OUT!

General response #1:

Why when discussing MSA's hint that Tampa "could claim the counties of..."? Why not just state the recognized facts, i.e., the counties that are part of the recognized MSA instead?

General Response #2: To Multifamilyinvestor:

Your subsequent explanations do not change the fact that in your initial post, your underlying point was that some Orlando forumers made "claims." My only point is that it is NOT a "claim" if the information is based on a fact, it is instead a FACT. The original forumer who posted those stats also posted the link to their source.

General Response #3: To Tampamobster21

If you read either of these reports, they both break down both metros into regions and county and separate the findings for each. Noone ever said anything about Tampa metro claiming only Hillsborough. THat's just how it seemed from how Multifamilyinvestor characterized the findings.

General Response #2: To Multifamilyinvestor:

Your subsequent explanations do not change the fact that in your initial post, your underlying point was that some Orlando forumers made "claims." My only point is that it is NOT a "claim" if the information is based on a fact, it is instead a FACT. The original forumer who posted those stats also posted the link to their source.


I never read the original post. Only refererences to it after the fact. Like I said before, I had seen Tampa forumers mention this before as well. The FACTS seem to be in dispute here depending on what criteria are used to compare the two CBDs. Not by me... but by two separate sources of information.


General Response #3: To Tampamobster21

If you read either of these reports, they both break down both metros into regions and county and separate the findings for each. Noone ever said anything about Tampa metro claiming only Hillsborough. THat's just how it seemed from how Multifamilyinvestor characterized the findings.

NO, that is exactly how the GVA Advantis reports are written. One for Orlando which includes those 3 counties, but 2 separate reports for Pinellas and Hillsborough. I reported the information the way the reports were written.

Again:

Tampa including Hillsborough County: (3rd Quarter 2006 Data)
http://www.advantisgva.com/filedownload.asp?id=305

Orlando including Orange, Seminole and Osceola: (2nd Quarter 2006 Data)
http://www.advantisgva.com/filedownload.asp?id=282

St. Petersburg including Pinellas: (3rd Quarter 2006 Data)
http://www.advantisgva.com/filedownload.asp?id=330

The Maps from Colliers' Study:

I looked at the two maps for Orlando and Tampa. Unless I'm mistaken, they are using OBT to Mills to Gore to FH South as Orlando's boundaries, if I'm reading that map correctly, and they are using Tampa's CBD from 275 south, the River to the west, the Channel/Ibor to the east, and inclusive of Harbor Island to the south.

Orlando's DT CBD boundary does take up more area here, according to Colliers. However, I know for a fact that apart from the ORHS and FH South clusters, most everthing else w/re to office space is between the Ivahnoe exit to the north, 408 to the south, Division to the west, and Summerlin to the east.

Back to Tampa.

When driving past the CBD cluster to the east, there is nothing but parking lots and lower income housing (maybe demolished now for new projects) and warehousing, even up to and past 275 to the north. To the west, past the River, there's UT north of Kennedy, but still not much in the way of offices until you near Dale Mabry. I'm surprised they didn't include Davis Island and Tampa General (according to the map). Maybe it's b/c of the access point being to the west. I don't know.

So, the geography and context of the two downtowns is completely different, hence why I think they used the parameters for Orlando's CBD that they did.

In ORL, there is continuous development from FH South to ORHS along Orange, which is why I think they included them in the district. However, I admit, why they extended the western boundary to OBT is beyond me. Still, there are no offices out there so it wouldn't affect the numbers anyway.

The raw Numbers:

They actually list the number of Class A and Class B & C bldgs. that are part of this study. Here's what they list for each:

ORL CLass A: 20
ORL Class B&C: 165

Tampa Class A: 13
Tampa Class B&C: 60

I think that originally, an underlying theme for why the original poster posted this info was to set straight the myth that Orlando was not a real city with a real downtown. This stat proved, that, in light of this type of criticism from the likes of Tampa and Miami... well, pretty much everybody in Florida, that Orlando had respectable numbers compared to other major Florida cities--- what was lacked in building height was made up in raw numbers.

jz,

I'm not sure if I get that underlying theme you suggest, even if this is the same old "tampa over orlando" garbage that floods this forum time and again. Either way, hopefully now with the "facts" the "opinions" can be curbed.

jz,

I'm not sure if I get that underlying theme you suggest, even if this is the same old "tampa over orlando" garbage that floods this forum time and again. Either way, hopefully now with the "facts" the "opinions" can be curbed.

I guess my point is that the common perception for years has been that this is the Mouse House and nothing more. Yet, those numbers prove that the opposite is true.

Since that study was first posted, we've had HUGE announcements dealing with: Commuter Rail, Burnham, UCF Med School, The PAC/O-rena/Citrus Bowl projects, and the latest expansion of OIA ala the $200M Intermodal Center.

So, as for that perception that was or still is maintained by many people, all I can say is.... whatever.

^Orlando continues to diversify rapidly, and has gained national attention in recent years for its ability to expand into other industries. If a few people only 70 miles West cannot see it for what it is, that is their problem not yours.

Since that study was first posted, we've had HUGE announcements dealing with: Commuter Rail, Burnham, UCF Med School, The PAC/O-rena/Citrus Bowl projects, and the latest expansion of OIA ala the $200M Intermodal Center.

All impressive projects.

I think that originally, an underlying theme for why the original poster posted this info was to set straight the myth that Orlando was not a real city with a real downtown. This stat proved, that, in light of this type of criticism from the likes of Tampa and Miami... well, pretty much everybody in Florida, that Orlando had respectable numbers compared to other major Florida cities--- what was lacked in building height was made up in raw numbers.

Thats rediculous. Even if we are to believe the GVA Advantis numbers, the two cities downtowns are similar in size with regard to office space.

Tampa CBD Rentable SQFT: 6,903,331
Orlando CBD Rentable SQFT: 6,414,772

No one ever said anything about Orlando not being a real city.

enough already.