United Maritime Province [Archive]

Smevo

February 13th, 2007, 10:01 AM

You just reminded me to post something I was thinking the other day. I'm wondering what should be done with the county structure. What I was kinda leaning towards was changing it to be in line with the boundaries of the regions. In other words, the regions are the counties. I figured, since the electoral boundaries for provincial and federal elections aren't aligned to the county boundaries, it shouldn't be too much of a problem in that respect. Basically, the electoral boundaries don't have to shift much if at all.

The reason behind re-aligning the boundaries was politically motivated, however. Since there would most likely be regional councils, making the regions the counties would do two things:
1) it would even out county populations a little more meaning you wouldn't have one council representing 8,000 people (Victoria County on Cape Breton) and another representing 350,000 people (HRM). Instead you'd still have one representing 350,000 people (Halifax's region) and another representing 150,000 people (Cape Breton region) for example. I wanted to use Northern New Brunswick numbers for this, but instead I'll post later what each region could theoretically be, then edit to update it when the new census comes out in a month.
2) It would eliminate the political redundancy that would be created by creating regional councils and leaving the current county structure in tact. This would also eliminate one county in the region which represents few people making a fuss over something the regional council passed even when the other three or four old counties involved (representing the majority of the region's population) were in favour of whatever resolution it was. Eliminate redundancy and bickering, essentially the whole idea behind and biggest benefit of the union of the provinces in the first place.

Just to clarify a much earlier personal opinion I mentioned regarding reversing the amalgamations made in Nova Scotia, the reason behind my opinion is simply that I don't believe the amalgamations were done properly. As it was brought up, amalgamations should have been done around the same time as the ones in New Brunswick were (eg Fredericton and Saint John), but also should have been done the same way. Instead of amalgamating an entire county giving the central city almost complete control over an enormous amount of area and mostly representing the urban/suburban residents in the process which is a prime recipe for haphazard sprawl, only the urban and suburban areas themselves, plus a reasonable buffer zone for future growth, should have been amalgamated. This would not take away the power of the city to negotiate land annexations with the province/county, but would somewhat keep the city in check and more committed to limiting sprawl.

Anyway, you can feel free to agree or disagree, I just wanted to clarify my point and make sure nobody thought it was population motivated in any way, since the rural areas that are controlled by the city (which is the part that I disagree with) add only a small amount of population to the regional municipality.

Smevo

February 13th, 2007, 01:38 PM

Alright, I did some figuring and calculating...

Here's a rough picture of the regions. And I know the map's outta whack, but it still works.
http://www.pbase.com/image/74330313.jpg
Red=North Region, Purple=Border Region, Blue=Northumberland Region, Pale Blue=Fundy South Region, Green=Fundy North Region, Yellow=South Region, Orange=East Region, Brown=Canso Region, Pale Green=Cape Breton Region. (These names are just being thrown out to put names to the regions and are open for change)

Regional Statistics:
Region....................Counties....................Population
Northern.............Victoria (NB)..................226,663
..........................Madawaska
..........................Restigouche
..........................Gloucester
..........................Northumberland
Northumberland...Kent............................291,365
..........................Westmorland
..........................Province of PEI
Border................Carleton.......................152,034
..........................York
..........................Sunbury
..........................Queens (NB)
South..................Digby.........................74,226
..........................Yarmouth
..........................Shelburne
..........................Queens (NS)
East...................Lunenburg...................406,702
..........................Halifax
Canso..................Pictou.......................76,070
..........................Antigonish
..........................Guysborough
Fundy North........Cumberland................149,174
..........................Colchester
..........................Hants
..........................Albert
Fundy South........Kings (NS)................246,640
..........................Annapolis
..........................Kings (NB)
..........................Saint John
..........................Charlotte
Cape Breton........Victoria (NS)..............143,229
..........................Inverness
..........................Cape Breton
..........................Richmond
-----------------------------------------------------------------

The new province (let's call it Acadia for now) would fit into the scheme of things like this...

Population....Land Area....Density..........GDP.............Parliament Seats
.................................................Total......P/C........House...Senate
1,822,092...130,448.......13.97.......$59.32B...32,556.....25........24

Which leaves us with this on the national level

Population.....Land Area......Density...................GDP
..............................................................Total.............P/C
Ontario.............Nunavut.......Acadia..............Ontario........NWT
Quebec............Quebec........Ontario............Quebec..........Alberta
BC...................NWT...........Quebec............Alberta..........Yukon
Alberta.............BC..............Alberta............BC................Ontario
Acadia...........Ontario...........BC................Acadia..........SK
Manitoba...........Alberta........Manitoba........SK.................NL
SK..................SK...............SK................Manitoba..........BC
NL*................Manitoba........NL*...............NL.................Nunavut
NWT.................NL..............Yukon...........NWT...............Quebec
Yukon...............Yukon..........NWT............Yukon.............Manitoba
Nunavut...........Acadia......Nunavut........Nunavut............Acadia
*indicates 2001 statistics, all others are 2006 for population and 2005 for GDP
All stats from Wikipedia except county stats from StatsCan 2001 census.

skyscraper_1

February 13th, 2007, 09:27 PM

Very impressive work Smevo! Acadia looks like a much more impressive place to live, work and invest in with numbers like that. Small size, high density and a sizable GDP. The new region/county break down is also interesting - Though I would change some of the boundaries, hehe over all its great.

skyscraper_1

February 13th, 2007, 09:42 PM

Oh yea - I would also want to point you in the direction of The Atlantica Party. They do not push for full political union, but a lot of what they propose is a step forward.

http://www.atlanticaparty.ca/index.html

Smevo

February 13th, 2007, 09:43 PM

I'm open to suggestions on boundary changes too. It's kinda hard to figure out around the Fundy area, and the way Sunbury, Queens, and Kings counties in NB are set up makes things interesting. :) I can update and edit as suggestions come in. :)

Reddog794

February 14th, 2007, 06:04 AM

The boundry issue, is big because it would effect the development progression. You'd have to split Cape Breton in teo, North South, due to the urban settlements. As well I'd see PEI in two different regions, as per the same situation. I like the idea of uniting the fundy area, it would improve development in the urban areas, and the ferry service already running would eventually become self sufficiant, plus you'd see a jump in people moving around inside the new Province easier, with development areas like that.

I digress though, Fantastic work! I'm really impressed with that build up of info. I hope you don't mind but I going to use that on the website, well the info and such. The Atlantica party is basically the first 5 steps to regional union. Sorry I haven't been checking so regularly, exams, and work kind of take over my time.

Smevo

February 14th, 2007, 11:19 AM

It's easiest to figure out populations by current counties, so here's the three current provinces.

http://www.pbase.com/smevo/image/74362997.jpg

http://www.gov.ns.ca/snsmr/muns/info/mapping/images-county/nsgcmap3.gif

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f232/stu_pendousmat/SJChQuKi.jpg

By Reddog's suggestion, I'm guessing Cape Breton would be split into CBRM + Victoria County, and then Inverness + Richmond County (correct me if I'm wrong).

Not positive how PEI would be split up. Uniting the whole Fundy region as one would make it comparable in population to "East" region though much larger in area, that's why I initially split it in two. Anyway, post suggestions, preferably with county names though if a county itself is to be split, just edit a picture and post it and I should be able to figure out a roughly accurate idea of population of the region.

As far as using it on the website, you are more than welcome to. I posted it to get some hard facts out there and confirm/dispell some beliefs as to where we'd rank in different areas. To be safe, make sure you list the source as Wikipedia though, we don't want to get involved in copyright crap with this since we're actually trying to make it a reality.

skyscraper_1

February 16th, 2007, 02:56 AM

The total nominal GDP of Acadia(population 1.8 million) is equal to that of Bangladesh(140million) hehe

Smevo

February 16th, 2007, 05:37 AM

^haha...nice. Acadia, 100% of GDP of Bangladesh, 1% of the people! :lol:

Reddog794

February 16th, 2007, 07:43 AM

Not the whole fundy area, but the Saint John-Digby spanning region, and combine Westmoreland, Albert, and the country around Amherst, on NE bank of the fundy, and SE bank region focusion around Truro. Focus on the cities, because that's what the Economy feeds on.

I digress, these are ideas, and that's really cool about the GDP. More ammo.

Smevo

February 16th, 2007, 09:10 AM

Lemme see if I got this straight. Fundy in 3 regions:
Region 1 counties:
Charlotte
Saint John
Kings (NB)
Digby
Annapolis
(exploit the ferry as connecting medium b/w Digby and Saint John)

Region 2 counties:
Westmorland
Albert
Cumberland (Amherst)

Region 3 counties:
Colchester (Truro)
Hants
Kings (NS)

Good suggestion, I'll figure out the differences when I get a chance tomorrow. As far as the Cape Breton suggestion, was I on target?
Maybe the North East Region counties:
Cape Breton (all that makes up CBRM)
Victoria (Baddeck)

and Strait of Canso Region:
Richmond (St. Peter's)
Inverness (Port Hawkesbury, Inverness)
Guysborough
Antigonish (namesake)
Pictou (New Glasgow-Stellarton-Trenton-Westville)

Reddog794

February 16th, 2007, 09:54 PM

Smevo

February 17th, 2007, 05:10 AM

Good good. I'll work on the new populations tomorrow. I'll try to think up more issues too, but one for now is how would we deal with the Altantica economic proposal? And would it be good or bad for the region?

skyscraper_1

February 17th, 2007, 06:03 AM

Parts of the Atlantica proposal I certainly endorse. I think the superhighway would be a good way to get Maritime goods(both produced by local companies and foreign owned) to the large markets of the US and central Canada. Then use rail links to pump the Asian imported goods into central Canada( and save the costly annual repairs that heavy truck traffic would cause.)

To say that an Atlantic Gateway would generate little in economic activity is a farce. Look at the Port of Vancouver, Canada's Pacific Gateway. According to its website.

"Across Canada, Port activities generate 30,100 direct jobs, 21,200 indirect jobs and a further 17,900 induced jobs. In total, the Port of Vancouver is responsible for 69,200 jobs and $1.5 billion in direct wages.

In 2004, economic activity at the Port generated more than $763 million in tax contributions to all levels of government. Of this, $740 million was paid by employers and employees through income taxes, fuel taxes and social insurance contributions. The VPA and its Port of Vancouver tenants paid $155 million in property taxes to municipal and provincial governments. Cruise ship passengers generated almost $15 million, mostly in hotel taxes and GST. The federal government received $411 million, 54% of total tax contributions; the provincial government $263 million, 35% of total contributions; and, municipal government $89 million, 12% of total contributions."

Of course - Halifax is a much smaller port, but with increased traffic comes increased jobs, wages, and tax revenue - Revenue that could be shared with the region if we are one province.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, I differ with the Atlantica plan in a few ways, namely "Atlantica" is proposed as an absolute free zone with a total free market approach, with little government control and intervention. I would love to see taxes lowered in the region as much as possible, however I still think both the federal and provincial government can play a strong positive role in the region.

With the right approach I think communities lining the provincial highways would be brimming with export based service and manufacturing industries.

skyscraper_1

February 17th, 2007, 06:06 AM

Another thing to think about is provincial debt: Nova Scotia has much higher debt then New Brunswick. Granted it could be offset by the fact that NBer's would get to access royalties from the off-shore.

Reddog794

February 17th, 2007, 08:31 AM

true, what else?

Smevo

February 18th, 2007, 04:51 AM

Revised Regions
I made some additional revisions because the revisions around the Fundy Regions left some imbalance and impracticality in two neighbouring regions.

http://www.pbase.com/smevo/image/74500456.jpg
Ok, the legend, Red = Northern Region, Pink = Gulf Region, Purple = Border Region, Pale Blue = Mouth of Fundy Region, Dark Green = Tantramar Region, Dark Purple = Cobequid Region, Yellow = South Shore Region, Orange = Halifax Region, Brown = Canso Region, Pale Green = Northeast Region, Blue = Island Region.

Northern Region - 175,846
Counties: Victoria (NB), Madawaska, Restigouche, Gloucester
Principal Towns/Cities: Grand Falls, Edmundston, Campbellton, Bathurst
(lost Northumberland (Miramichi) in the revision)

Gulf Region - 82,200
Counties: Northumberland, Kent
Principal Towns/Cities: Miramichi, Cocagne
(new region created during revisions)

Border Region - 152,034
Counties: Carleton, York, Sunbury, Queens
Principal Towns/Cities: Woodstock, Fredericton, Oromocto, Minto
unrevised

Mouth of Fundy Region - 209,212
Counties: Charlotte, Saint John, Kings (NB), Digby, Annapolis
Principal Towns/Cities: St. Stephen, Saint John, Quispamsis/Rothesay, Digby, Middleton.
(renamed. added Digby lost Kings (NS) in revision)

Tantramar Region - 184,042
Counties: Westmorland, Albert, Cumberland
Principal Towns/Cities: Moncton, Riverview, Amherst
(new region)

Cobequid Region - 148,706
Counties: Colchester, Hants, Kings (NS)
Principal Towns: Truro, Enfield, Kentville
(renamed region, lost Cumberland and Albert Counties, added Kings (NS) county)

South Shore Region - 102,359
Counties: Yarmouth, Shelburne, Queens (NS), Lunenburg
Principal Towns: Yarmouth, Shelburne, Liverpool, Bridgewater
(renamed, lost Digby county, added Lunenburg county to even out population)

Halifax Region - 359,111
Counties: Halifax
Principal City: HRM
(renamed, lost Lunenburg county)

Canso Region - 105,813
Counties: Richmond, Inverness, Guysborough, Antigonish, Pictou
Principal Towns: St. Peter's, Port Hawkesbury, Guysborough, Antigonish, New Glasgow.
(added Richmond and Inverness counties)

Northeast Region - 116,848
Counties: Cape Breton, Victoria (NS)
Principal Towns/Cities: CBRM, Baddeck
(renamed, lost Richmond and Inverness)

Island Region - 135,294
Counties: Prince, Queens (PE), Kings (PE)
Principal Towns/Cities: Summerside, Charlottetown, Montague
(renamed, lost Westmorland and Kent counties)

The reason I had to make the new Gulf region was because there was no connection between Kent county and PEI. These new revisions even out the regional populations even more, now with only one region (Gulf) under 100,000 and the largest being Halifax with 359,000. Still open for more suggestions/comments. :cheers:

Smevo

February 19th, 2007, 12:53 AM

How would the unions react to this? Since a uniting of the provinces would lead to an eventual (though not necessarily immediate) merger of the provincial unions (eg- NSTU NBTA and PEI Teachers union; NSNU, NBNA, and PEINA, etc). This might cause some animosity among the stronger unions, though the weaker ones should be happy though may not necessarily be. What do you guys think and how should we attack the union issue?

I know for a fact we're going to have the three government employees unions as well as probably CUPE as opposition.

Smevo

February 21st, 2007, 09:18 AM

One thing that's become a hot topic lately, notably in Quebec and New Brunswick, and was mentioned in the Atlantica proposal, is election reform. Obviously there is no perfect model, but is our current model (FPTP) good enough for Acadia or should a new model be introduced upon uniting of the provinces (eg- some form of Proportional Representation (PR) or Single Transferable Vote (STV)). I'm not too clear on the difference between the two mentioned options for change, but I'll read up more on it. Before I post any thoughts of my own on this, I want to know your thoughts on it.

As for opposition to the proposal, we already know about the bureaucrats and the CBLP, and probably a lot of people in the current capital regions whether they have ties to bureacrats or not, but are there any others? Who else is going to be our biggest threat?

SS1 - I agree with your thoughts on the Atlantica proposal. Some parts are obviously good, but some parts (like the absolute free zone you mentioned) I take issue with. Nomatter how much you believe in Adam Smith economics in principle, there will always be a healthy place for government in reality. As for the provincial debts, that might very well be a hard issue to sway people on, though all three provinces are *supposedly* running annual surpluses. (I say supposedly because as soon as a new government comes in they always accuse the old government of running a deficit, maybe as truth or maybe just to make themselves look better come budget time)

skyscraper_1

February 24th, 2007, 06:36 PM

Just a interesting note...if you search for "United Maritime Province" on google the top sites that come up are SSC and SSP. hehe and you also get my sig as well. So if anyone is looking for Maritime union supporters they will find us!

Smevo

February 24th, 2007, 08:09 PM

Excellent! :)

vid

February 25th, 2007, 05:49 AM

Who here was starting the "Lets abolish parliament" threads at SSP?

It reflects poorly on your group. :)

skyscraper_1

February 25th, 2007, 07:57 AM

Although mentioned in this thread. "The Atlantica Party" has nothing to do with us or the movement.

samsonyuen

February 26th, 2007, 01:14 AM

I think it'd be a good idea. I'm not sure if it should include Newfoundland and Labrador too or not, but the three for sure (NB, NS, PE).

Smevo

February 26th, 2007, 02:48 AM

Who here was starting the "Lets abolish parliament" threads at SSP?

It reflects poorly on your group. :)

We have nothing to do with the Atlantica Party, and they're supposed to have nothing to do with parliament. That's just some guy who joined the Atlantica Party trying to further their agenda without actually saying anything informative in the threads themselves. On the other hand, we're using our threads to figure things out firstly, with the side bonus of raising awareness for our cause.

If you check out the Atlantic Provinces forum on SSP, you'll see this "atlanticaparty" guy has started threads separately from our threads with completely different ideas.

C'mon vid, you've been around long enough to know us better than that. ;) :cheers:

Reddog794

February 26th, 2007, 03:08 PM

The idea though would be to connect with him, and see what he really wants from this. He may not have the same goals, but the same ideas of function. As much as a parlimentary shake-up would probably help expedite our goals, it's not one of the better options in the long run. A question to ask on this thought though, would be how would we structure the new Provincial Legislature? Take a page from the Nepoleonic Code, and structure it similar to Quebecs? Or retrace it to the format of the original "Responsible Government"? The main concern is if we radically redo the format for government, it could either scare away, or draw, more public interest into the idea.

vid

February 27th, 2007, 01:18 AM

C'mon vid, you've been around long enough to know us better than that. ;) :cheers:

I know but sometimes I am different than I am.

Smevo

February 27th, 2007, 04:47 AM

^lol, we all are. :cheers:

He does raise some valid points that we'll have to look at, but he went way to far with the abolishing parliament issue, especially since his forum name on SSP is "atlanticaparty" automatically associating all his views with the party itself, even though the party itself is only a provincial party. Even the party itself is going to have a hard time differentiating themselves from the AIMS group (the Atlantica economic proposal) since they say in their own forum that they are not affiliated with AIMS.

It may be worthwhile connecting with the party itself because we have a lot of common ground on the political level with them, but there are some things that if they're not willing to budge may hurt the possibility of both a cooperation between us and them and the possibility of a United Maritime Province itself. We'd actually have to have a full-out talk with them to compare our views with theirs to see if it would be worthwhile to network with them and associate ourselves with them.

tap

March 1st, 2007, 02:57 AM

tap

March 1st, 2007, 03:06 AM

Who here was starting the "Lets abolish parliament" threads at SSP?

It reflects poorly on your group. :)

For the record (forgive me, I know its off topic) (we got banned in mid-debate)
NO ONE is advocating abolishing parliament.

The point of the topic is to argue that Canada's parliament (and more to the point of this thread, provincial legislatures) are ineffective, that is they have lost the ability to say no to the government. They are rubber-stamp organizations.

If that is true, then our legislatures no longer fulfill the role for which they were created (centuries ago in England) because they no longer can control the government (the executive/monarch).

If our legislatures no longer fulfill this role, we are provocatively asking, why not abolish then and save money and end the charade?

Again, for the record, we do not advocate abolishing legislatures, we want legislatures reformed as an effective check on the power of the government so that political discourse in Atlantic Canada can be of better quality.

tap

Smevo

March 1st, 2007, 04:10 AM

^Our groups have some things in common, tap, and electoral reform may be something worth investigating, but imo (and none of this necessarily reflects the opinion of our group), it should stop at electoral reform and the changes that would have in the legislatures. I think abolishing the legislatures would kill any political power we already have, do more damage than good. I'm staying away from the parliament issue because our case is merely a regional one, and we're not involving ourselves in any way (save any possible senate/constitution reform necessary to create a politically united province) with federal politics.

Reddog794

March 1st, 2007, 06:55 AM

At no point have I ever made any intentions to change the federal structure. One of my points for a United Maritime Province, is that it would give us a stronger swing in Ottawa. I'd prefer if you kept that stuff out of here, because obviously the moderaters don't think it should be up in this forum, and we'd like to keep this thread up, for a United Maritime Province type of discussion... that is what it's titled. I know I sound like a jerk, I'm not, I just got home from work, and on another spin of thought. Dev, I can't make the journey, work won't give me the time. Later though, yes.

What would be the first step in getting this going, save for a website/blog? Meaning the UMP.

Smevo

March 1st, 2007, 07:16 AM

^agree completely with you there, Cliff. Too bad you can't make the trip down, I'll still be going down this weekend though and hopefully be able to make some progress spreading our cause to my family and network of friends and acquaintances. Any weekend should be ok for me with about two weeks notice, I was only able to head down on short notice this time because I already had the time booked to go to Sydney, but plans changed.

As far as getting this going, we should probably start working on some drafts of the letters to send to the legislative assemblies, parliament, senate, Mr. MacNeil of the Province of Cape Breton movement, and possibly to the Atlantica Party. Once the letters are revised to a satisfactory level, they'll be ready to send off to their destinations. Perhaps we should each write one to each of our local MLA's/MP's as well (eg- I'd write for my ridings in Fredericton and Sydney, Cliff for Saint John and Dartmouth, and SS1 I presume for Halifax, and whoever else for their own ridings). Though I don't think any letters or emails should be sent off until their contents are satisfactory (eg - consistent vision, and minor things that make a major impact like correct grammar/spelling) and we have a website up and running to refer to. It will probably take time to write the letters in the first place, considering most of us are students who also work, and then more time to revise them, so it might be good to start them now.

Just curious, Cliff, if you've been checking the SSP thread too. It went a little off track again with a renewal of the capital debate, but there were some good points raised there and hopefully it'll get back on track again.

Tap, if you want to try your luck here with your own thread, I can't personally stop you, but I'm warning you it will get locked here as quickly as it did on SSP. In other words, it's pointless and reflects badly on your own group. But keep it out of this thread, it's not welcome here. We are a real movement with real objectives, and we use these threads to sort things out, so we need them to stay open.

Rhino

March 1st, 2007, 07:23 AM

here here .

Smevo

March 2nd, 2007, 04:32 AM

Great initiative. I've been thinking about this Maritime Union last night and found this thread on Google. I had SSP and SSC in my bookmarks for some time.

This was posted by a newly registered forumer on SSP. :banana: IT WORKED!!! :D
:banana:
:pepper:
:applause:
:rock:
:righton:
:dance:

Ok, I'll stop now.

Reddog794

March 2nd, 2007, 05:26 AM

sweet

Reddog794

March 2nd, 2007, 05:37 AM

We originally wanted to propose a full-monty political union for the four provinces because it makes sense, however our initial feedback indicated it was a hard sell due to entrenched paroquial attitudes so we have adopted a ‘softer’ economic union proposal and an occasional regional legislature focusing on common issues. We didn’t want the regional issue to sink the reform issue.

We would still consider working towards a Maritime Union if it had any kind of traction.

Some advice, don't let the issue of the location of the capital bog down the disussion.

tap

Haha, ya that's a sticky point, but we've moved through that already. It's now a point of centralizing our ideas, into something we can present to people. I'm in for a meeting of like minded people for this. Tap, what other points do you have, on the idea of a United Maritime Province? Beyond the capital. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the possibility? But no Atlantica jazz please, this is not the place.

tap

March 2nd, 2007, 02:21 PM

Apologies if we have broken any rules.

If we are still welcome in the thread, we feel we can contribute to the debate on MU.

We are a real movement with real objectives, and we use these threads to sort things out, so we need them to stay open.

Tell us about the movement.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the possibility? But no Atlantica jazz please, this is not the place.

Is the MU plan to amalgamate legislatures into one legislature with existing ridings?

How will MU be accompolished? A referendum or parallel bills in provincial legislatures?

Who will lead the cause?

Does MU include Newfoundland? I assume from the name it does not. If not why?

Reddog794

March 3rd, 2007, 07:28 AM

tap

March 3rd, 2007, 11:13 PM

I have a feeling, with the Hiberina projects going as they are, NL wouldn't see it in they're best interests. For right now, just the Maritimes is what's needed. NL is going to be okay in the next few yars, they've been making the right moves.

If we combined the Maritimes into one Legislature, with the same Federal riderings, but slightly different in the Provincial ridings. That's why I wanted to know your opinion is on this. You guys really understand the system, and I was curious, what would it take to make this happen?

Why rush to exclude NL? There is no reason to. We share a common history, people, and experience. Any MU with NL would be that much stronger.

Creating MU is a rather big issue, the biggest in years in these parts. I don't see how you could do it (or would want to do it) without some type of referendum. Would it be undemocratic for the political systems simply to legislate MU into existance?

Second, would the political systems be interested. I don't think so. MU has been discussed many times before, the last time in 1970, and it never passed. Apart from the fact that many party positions would become redundant (3 out of 4 leaders and cabinets loss their jobs), the entrenched party structures do not act unless it is for their own benefit even if the common good is incredibly obvious. Unless MU is a hugh vote getter, and it isn't, I doubt they will be interested.

And if a referendum then MU becomes a 300 pound political gorilla ...

skyscraper_1

March 4th, 2007, 01:53 AM

Why rush to exclude NL? There is no reason to. We share a common history, people, and experience. Any MU with NL would be that much stronger.

Creating MU is a rather big issue, the biggest in years in these parts. I don't see how you could do it (or would want to do it) without some type of referendum. Would it be undemocratic for the political systems simply to legislate MU into existance?

Second, would the political systems be interested. I don't think so. MU has been discussed many times before, the last time in 1970, and it never passed. Apart from the fact that many party positions would become redundant (3 out of 4 leaders and cabinets loss their jobs), the entrenched party structures do not act unless it is for their own benefit even if the common good is incredibly obvious. Unless MU is a hugh vote getter, and it isn't, I doubt they will be interested.

And if a referendum then MU becomes a 300 pound political gorilla ...I think our goal is to find supporters and get the word out. People are generally supportive of the idea, but its not a hot button issue. If we can get enough active grassroot support some politician will eventually pick up the issue. For a union to be successful the support must come from below, not legislated from parliament

tap

March 4th, 2007, 02:18 PM

I think our goal is to find supporters and get the word out. People are generally supportive of the idea, but its not a hot button issue. If we can get enough active grassroot support some politician will eventually pick up the issue. For a union to be successful the support must come from below, not legislated from parliament

Absolutely Agree. So you have to become political. Only disagreement is the 'finding some politican' bit. Under this method what you need to find is an existing major party with a shot a becoming the government in or more provinces, not just a politican, since individual politicians cannot act without the acquiescence of the top.

Smevo

March 7th, 2007, 12:43 AM

I've been away for a bit, so I've got quite a bit to respond to.

Apologies if we have broken any rules.

If we are still welcome in the thread, we feel we can contribute to the debate on MU.

You are more than welcome in the thread, we just want to keep it on topic.

Tell us about the movement.

The movement is basically us, just a group of citizens starting a grassroots political movement to make this area of the country better. We are neither a political nor economic organization nor did we get this idea handed to us from a political or economic organization. The idea came from the people, being us, and because of that there is no real deadline and we are less likely to give up than the aforementioned organizations.

Is the MU plan to amalgamate legislatures into one legislature with existing ridings?

How will MU be accompolished? A referendum or parallel bills in provincial legislatures?

Who will lead the cause?

Does MU include Newfoundland? I assume from the name it does not. If not why?

Reddog already addressed the ridings issue, and that's pretty much dead on. The public education and letters to the political bodies would eventually result (ideally) into parallel bills that would run referendums region-wide all on the same day. We are leading this cause, and we are just a group of citizens, by coincidence of the younger generation and university students. The reason we didn't include Newfoundland was for two reasons, the one Reddog mentioned about Hibernia, but also because culturally and historically they are quite different than the rest of the Maritime Provinces, though they are the closest in both to us in the rest of the country, so it seemed unlikely that they would want to be part of the union. That said, if they did want in, we wouldn't kick them out.

Unless MU is a hugh vote getter, and it isn't, I doubt they will be interested.

Very true that this is the case now, however, this is a growing long-term movement, mostly of the young generation, whose future has two roads with the acceptance or rejection of this union.

So you have to become political. Only disagreement is the 'finding some politican' bit. Under this method what you need to find is an existing major party with a shot a becoming the government in or more provinces, not just a politican, since individual politicians cannot act without the acquiescence of the top

Becoming political is what is in our future. Ideally, we would want a major party to throw their support behind this. However, if this grows into a hot button issue with increased public knowledge, a political party would have to introduce this. However, though unlikely, it is possible that a private member's bill from an individual politician could help spur this into a hot button issue and help us get the word out what this means for the future of the Maritimes as a whole.

tap

March 9th, 2007, 01:11 PM

We are encouraged and impressed by people such as yourselves who have the desire to help Atlantic Canada evolve forward. To go from talk to action shows strength.

Could one of us sit in on your next meeting?

tap

March 13th, 2007, 02:57 PM

There are also two new Atlantic Union discussion threads ongoing in these to local forums:
http://www.atlanticcanadalive.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=18
http://www.peiinfo.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=26

And hopefully a third new thread here soon,
http://freenl.jconserv.net/index.php

Cheers

steve81

March 14th, 2007, 10:32 PM

Judging from the comments in these forums, there seems to be huge resistance from PEI. As if they will never accept this. I think we should also consider merging NB and NS in the case PEI rejects this. Just to let Islanders know that we don't need them in order to do it. NB + NS = population of 1,643,459 while PEI has 135,851 (2006 census).

Smevo

March 16th, 2007, 03:07 AM

Thanks for the links, tap. They're interesting reads. I don't really see the opposition as huge as steve81 sees it. They seem to be pretty open, but again it seems the stumbling block is the assumption of Halifax being capital and the fear of being "taken over" by Nova Scotia. It may be a good idea for a few of us to join those forums and clarify our position, because right now (no offense tap) we're being lumped in with the Atlantica Party which carries too much of a connotation involving the AIMS movement. Also, they're doubting that Charlottetown would be agreed upon as a potential capital (again the capital issue, I know) but it's one of our most favoured to be the capital. Anyway, I'll probably sign up this weekend, and I know Reddog already joined one of them at least.

Also, I don't think we should alienate PEI with the "we don't need you" stance, as they have a lot to offer to the union even with their small population, similar to the story of Northern New Brunswick, just with different things to offer. In order for the union to be a success, we have to recognize what each region can contribute and we have to recognize also that every region's contribution is valuable to the united province.

Anyway, good to have you aboard this board as well Steve. As for meetings, this is generally where most of the brainstorming get's done, but I'm not opposed to you, tap (or anyone else interested), sitting in on an in-person meeting. They're hard to schedule, however, seeing as our group is a little more spread out and slightly more immobile. It would depend on timing and on the other members. :cheers:

Also, for anyone reading, please remember that our involvement in this movement started with the initial post on this message board and exploded from there, so input is a valuable commodity. We are just really starting to get organized and have a long way to go.

A valuable piece of input from steve in one of his posts on SSP is that we need other provinces outside the union to agree to this too, so in addition to letters already mentioned here, it seems we may have to add recipients to the tune of the rest of the legislative assemblies and some selected MP's from other provinces. If we can get Quebec and Ontario on board, that's 5 of our 7 provinces needed and the required half of the population, so we'd need to convince two more provinces as well. Quebec and Ontario are the most important because the minimum 7 combined provinces in favour must represent a minimum of half of the Canadian population.

tap

March 16th, 2007, 01:34 PM

steve81

March 16th, 2007, 09:29 PM

Also, I don't think we should alienate PEI with the "we don't need you" stance, as they have a lot to offer to the union even with their small population, similar to the story of Northern New Brunswick, just with different things to offer. In order for the union to be a success, we have to recognize what each region can contribute and we have to recognize also that every region's contribution is valuable to the united province.

We can't let PEI block a NB-NS union in the case they're not interested in joining, but I agree we should welcome them and recognize that they have a lot to contribute. I think people in PEI will be reticent in the beginning, but if they see that NB and NS want to go ahead, they would certainly want to be part of it.

Smevo

March 17th, 2007, 01:07 AM

We can't let PEI block a NB-NS union in the case they're not interested in joining, but I agree we should welcome them and recognize that they have a lot to contribute. I think people in PEI will be reticent in the beginning, but if they see that NB and NS want to go ahead, they would certainly want to be part of it.

You're right, if PEI didn't go for this initially, but NB and NS did, there's no reason not to merge those two provinces. I think with a clear position of why we're doing this and that it's for all Maritimers in all three provinces, and that it would be a merger of cooperation rather than a "take-over", people will open up to this more and more. The biggest concern is always whether the region's voice will be heard, so we can't give any impression that it won't be. This would be a united voice for Maritimers rather than three fighting voices for their capital cities. The more I think about it, the more I think reform away from the FPTP is a must to avoid the current situation of parties just trying to get re-elected from conitinuing. That should also help ensure that the "voice" of individual regions are truly heard.

tap

March 18th, 2007, 06:48 PM

You're right, if PEI didn't go for this initially, but NB and NS did, there's no reason not to merge those two provinces. I think with a clear position of why we're doing this and that it's for all Maritimers in all three provinces, and that it would be a merger of cooperation rather than a "take-over", people will open up to this more and more. The biggest concern is always whether the region's voice will be heard, so we can't give any impression that it won't be. This would be a united voice for Maritimers rather than three fighting voices for their capital cities. The more I think about it, the more I think reform away from the FPTP is a must to avoid the current situation of parties just trying to get re-elected from conitinuing. That should also help ensure that the "voice" of individual regions are truly heard.

Electoral reform?
Do you mean pre-Union?
Do you mean federally or provincially?

Smevo

March 18th, 2007, 11:25 PM

No, most likely associated with the union itself or post union but soon after. Provincial only, federal is a whole other can of worms we don't want to open. We're a provincial-only group and are going to stay that way until the union is a reality. Also, that was personal opinion, meant as a suggestion to be debated, and not necessarily (we'll see how the next few posts go) the opinion of the group itself.

As mentioned earlier, we are not involving ourselves in any kind of federal shake-up, so keep the federal stuff out of here. Our only concern on the national level is getting the other 4 provinces representing 50% of the population to support us.

Smevo

March 26th, 2007, 08:38 PM

Alright, I've signed up for three of the forums and started lending my voice to one so far. We may have a problem there with one of the admins being against the idea and seeming to assume we are the same as the Atlantica Party (no offense, Mr. Dean in any time I brought the difference up here or over there). I encourage others here to join the discussion. Supporters and non-supporters are welcome to discuss, because we do want to get informed on what opposition we face and how realistic this actually is, though like I said on SSP, I personally am not going to give up. But please back up your opinions on either side of this issue.

tap

March 27th, 2007, 04:25 PM

Does anyone have any information on the estimated costs/savings of either Atlantic or Maritime Union. I assume there would be cost savings but others say no, as in 'no union has ever produced the promised savings'.

Smevo

March 27th, 2007, 08:05 PM

The problem is, there's going to be initial cost. The savings come in upon the reduction of redundancy. I can't really put $figures to either one right now though, but I do know that Graham aimed his cuts at the public service because it was one of the largest parts of the annual budget and the easiest to manipulate in terms of increasing or decreasing it's size. The unions didn't like that too much though, and they won't like us for the same reason.

steve81

March 29th, 2007, 12:18 AM

As mentioned earlier, we are not involving ourselves in any kind of federal shake-up, so keep the federal stuff out of here. Our only concern on the national level is getting the other 4 provinces representing 50% of the population to support us.

We do need the support of the House of Commons and the Senate though. I don't think this is much of a big deal. The hardest place to get support is within the Maritimes themselves.

Smevo

March 29th, 2007, 01:20 AM

We do need the support of the House of Commons and the Senate though. I don't think this is much of a big deal. The hardest place to get support is within the Maritimes themselves.

This is true, I was just pointing out that we're not interested in changing the federal structure. The seat distribution and approval associated with the plan to unite the provinces is one thing, but electoral reform on the national level which was asked about is not something we want to involve ourselves in even remotely.

Reddog794

April 11th, 2007, 06:24 AM

On to a meat of the bones type point then, does anybody have the numbers on urban growth in the Maritimes? Or maybe the money all three provinces are spending on their cities? How much are the cities, making the provinces? With a more unified pool of investment, there would be a more oppertunities for basic economic oppertunites. It would lead to a more diverse economy. Come on people, questions, thoughts.

Smevo

April 11th, 2007, 06:52 AM

I've been meaning to post updates on this for the past little bit, unfortunately, time was short lately.

Even so, I will be posting updates including updated populations for the regions and their cities, and I could do an overall urban growth/rural decline statistic for the area with very little extra work on what I already have done. The updated populations are already computed, I just need to post them, hopefully this weekend. As far as the money spent on cities, I don't have a clue, I just know it usually goes to the wrong things. :lol:

Definitely, the unified pool of investment for urban areas would be a great asset for the area. Basically, anything that would become a unified pool of money for any area (tourism, infrastructure, advertising areas to business, etc) would be a great asset for the area. And diversification is the key to prolonged success, specialization was the bane of this area, especially in the example case of SYSCO which still had all the molds for everything it made before, but under a manager that decided to move operations to a mill he ran in a competing city, ended up specializing in steel rail production, and as they say, the rest (and the mill) is history. There are other examples of this too.

On another update, I searched through the threads on the various message forums to compile a point-style list of highlights about the prospect of the union that I'll also be posting soon, just to have it all in one place. I've also begun researching the links that have been provided in the different forums, and will probably search for even more papers when I get the chance, in an effort to come up with some more info on the history of the idea and hopefully some more fuel for the movement. I've been doing this all in an effort to inform myself so the letters I take part in writing/revising will be well researched and well thought out.

One thing that I didn't know about that was mentioned in IOA Garden in Disorder? Reaction to the Maritime Union Proposal on Prince Edward Island. (http://ace.acadiau.ca/polisci/appsa/papers/paperC.htm) by Henry Srebrnik of UPEI, is the foreign land ownership law, which has thusfar limited the amount of influence the Irvings and McCains have been able to have on the island. This is an obvious point that will have to be dealt with, and perhaps not only with respect to PEI. One thing that became clear while reading it, though, is that "general views" are rapidly changing with the maturing of the Generation-X and post Generation-X population. Anyway, I should be able to post a better update on the weekend, at least of the populations and urban growth because those are already done.

Smevo

April 16th, 2007, 04:13 AM

http://www.pbase.com/smevo/image/74500456.jpg
Ok, the legend, Red = Northern Region, Pink = Gulf Region, Purple = Border Region, Pale Blue = Mouth of Fundy Region, Dark Green = Tantramar Region, Dark Purple = Cobequid Region, Yellow = South Shore Region, Orange = Halifax Region, Brown = Canso Region, Pale Green = Northeast Region, Blue = Island Region.

Northern Region - 167,172
Counties:
Victoria (NB) - 20,319
Madawaska - 34,071
Restigouche - 33,834
Gloucester - 78,948
Principal Towns/Cities:
Grand Falls - 5,650
Edmundston - 14,110
Campbellton - 9,236
Bathurst - 18,154

Gulf Region - 80,317
Counties:
Northumberland - 48,868
Kent - 31,449
Principal Towns/Cities:
Miramichi - 18,129*

Border Region - 154,754
Counties:
Carleton - 26,632
York - 90,872
Sunbury - 25,542
Queens - 11,708
Principal Towns/Cities:
Woodstock - 5,113*
Fredericton - 56,245
Oromocto - 8,706

Mouth of Fundy Region - 207,773
Counties:
Charlotte - 26,898
Saint John - 74,621
Kings (NB) - 65,824
Digby - 18,992
Annapolis - 21,438
Principal Towns/Cities:
St. Stephen - 4,780
Saint John - 90,016
Digby - 2,097
Middleton - 1,829

Tantramar Region - 192,457
Counties:
Westmorland - 132,849
Albert - 27,562
Cumberland - 32,046
Principal Towns/Cities:
Moncton - 97,065
Amherst - 9,547

Cobequid Region - 151,240
Counties:
Colchester - 50,023
Hants - 41,182
Kings (NS) - 60,035
Principal Towns:
Truro - 22,376
Enfield - 3,415
Kentville - 13,552

South Shore Region - 100,183
Counties:
Yarmouth - 26,277
Shelburne - 15,544
Queens (NS) - 11,212
Lunenburg - 47,150
Principal Towns:
Yarmouth - 7,162
Shelburne - 1,879
Liverpool - 2,759
Bridgewater - 8,021

Halifax Region - 372,858
Counties:
Halifax - 372,858
Principal City:
Halifax - 282,924

Canso Region - 103,183
Counties:
Richmond - 9,740
Inverness - 19,036
Guysborough - 9,058
Antigonish - 18,836
Pictou - 46,513
Principal Towns:
Port Hawkesbury - 3,517
Antigonish - 4,655
New Glasgow - 20,876

Northeast Region - 113,522
Counties:
Cape Breton - 105,928
Victoria (NS) - 7,594
Principal Towns/Cities:
Sydney - 33,012
Glace Bay - 19,968
Sydney Mines - 15,500
New Waterford - 9,661

Island Region - 135,851
Counties:
Prince - 44,499
Queens (PE) - 72,744
Kings (PE) - 18,608
Principal Towns/Cities:
Summerside - 14,517
Charlottetown - 38,801
Montague - 1,812

All populations from Statistics Canada, Census 2006, by Urban Area (UA). *indicates population is by Census Subdivision (CSD) because Urban Area (UA) was not available.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

The new province would fit into the scheme of things like this...

Population....Land Area....Density..........GDP.............Parliament Seats
.................................................Total......P/C........House...Senate
1,779,310...129,956.49.......13.69.......$59.32B...32,556.....25........24

Which leaves us with this on the national level

Population.....Land Area......Density...................GDP
..............................................................Total.............P/C
Ontario.............Nunavut.......Acadia..............Ontario........NWT
Quebec............Quebec........Ontario............Quebec..........Alberta
BC...................NWT...........Quebec............Alberta..........Yukon
Alberta.............BC..............Alberta............BC................Ontario
Acadia...........Ontario...........BC................Acadia..........SK
Manitoba...........Alberta........Manitoba........SK.................NL
SK..................SK...............SK................Manitoba..........BC
NL................Manitoba........NL...............NL.................Nunavut
NWT.................Yukon..............Yukon...........NWT...............Quebec
Yukon...............NL..........NWT............Yukon.............Manitoba
Nunavut...........Acadia......Nunavut........Nunavut............Acadia
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Just for fun, here's some more stuff...
Cities and towns over 10,000 in population by either CSD, CMA/CA, or UA

City.......................................CSD....................CMA/CA..............UA
Halifax.................................372,679(HRM)........372,858(HRM)......282,924
Sydney................................102,250(CBRM)......105,928(CBRM)....33,012
Glace Bay................................(CBRM).............(CBRM)...............19,968
Sydney Mines/North Sydney.......(CBRM).............(CBRM)................15,500
Truro...................................11,765................45,077................22,376
New Glasgow.........................9,455................36,288.................20,876
Kentville...............................5,815.................25,969................13,552
Saint John............................68,043...............122,389...............90,016
Quispamsis...........................15,239................(SJ)...................(SJ)
Rothesay.............................11,637................(SJ)...................(SJ)
Moncton..............................64,128................126,424.............97,065
Dieppe................................18,565.................(MCN)...............(MCN)
Riverview............................17,832.................(MCN)...............(MCN)
Fredericton..........................50,535................85,688...............56,245
Miramichi.............................18,129................24,737..............13,441(Chatham-Douglastown)
Edmundston.........................16,643................21,442..............14,110
Bathurst..............................12,714...............31,424...............18,154
Campbellton.........................7,384.................17,888...............11,676
Charlottetown......................32,174................58,625..............38,801
Summerside.........................14,500................16,153..............14,517

To summarize this table, Acadia would have 14 Municipalities, 14 CMA/CA's, or 16 Urban Areas over 10,000 in population to attract new opportunities to the region. :cheers:

New tables to come in the next post.

Every population and land area statistic used came directly or indirectly through computation and are based on the Statistics Canada Census 2006. Every GDP and Parliament Seats statistic came directly or indirectly through computation and are based on statistics found on Wikipedia.com.

Smevo

April 16th, 2007, 06:06 AM

I'll only do the Acadia portion for now, but if you want comparisons to the rest of Canada, I can edit and do that too. I can also expand these if you like to include Within CMA/CA urban, Outside CMA/CA urban, Within CMA/CA rural, and Outside CMA/CA rural. All these statistics come from Statistics Canada Census 2006 with percentages calculated based on these same statistics. The Acadia stats are (obviously) the sum of the stats for PEI, NS, and NB.

Province.................Population...Total Urban...Total Rural....% Urban..% Rural...Urban Growth....%UG
Prince Edward Island.....135,851......61,173......74,678........45.03........54.97.......206...............0.3
Nova Scotia................913,462.....506,932....406,530.........55.50.......44.50.......1,349.............0.3
New Brunswick............729,997......372,935....357,062.........51.09.......48.91.......4,292............1.2
Acadia...................1,779,310...941,040....838,270.........52.89........47.11.......5,847...........0.6

Since the Parliament Seats issue is going to be raised, I'll throw out a few scenarios of that here, the most fair will be in bold though we all know that's not necessarily the most likely.

First, here's the current situation...all from Wikipedia.org
Province....2001 Population/HOC Seat.......2001 Population/Senate Seat
NL.............73,275.71...............................85,488.33
NB............72,949.80................................72,949.80
NS............82,546.09................................90,800.70
PE.............33,823.50...............................33,823.50
QC............96,499.72..............................301,561.63
ON............120,105.75.............................475,418.58
MB.............79,970.21..............................186,597.17
SK..............69,923.79..............................163,155.50
AB..............141,657.48............................495,801.17
BC..............139,562.07............................651,289.67

I won't include the territories because they are erroneous in the formula.
*AC...........71,172.40..............................74,137.92

Now, here are some scenarios I was playing with, basing the # seats on different criteria.

Based on....................HOC Seats...............Senate Seats
NL................................24..........................21
QC................................18..........................6
ON................................17..........................4
MB................................22..........................10
SK................................25..........................11
AB................................17..........................4
BC................................16..........................3
Avg..............................17..........................6
Avg - AC.......................16..........................5
Avg - hi/low...................17..........................6
Avg - AC - hi/low............16..........................5

Some more insight from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Senate)
Seats are assigned on a regional basis, with each region receiving twenty-four seats. The regions are: Ontario, Quebec, the Maritime provinces, and the Western provinces. The seats for Newfoundland and Labrador, the Northwest Territories, Yukon, and Nunavut are assigned apart from these regional divisions.

...
Under the constitution, each province or territory is entitled to a specific number of senate seats. A senator must reside in the province or territory for which he or she is appointed. The Constitution divides Canada into four "divisions," each with an equal number of senators: 24 for Ontario and Quebec each; 24 for the Maritime provinces (10 each for Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and 4 for Prince Edward Island); and 24 for the Western provinces (6 each for Manitoba, British Columbia, Saskatchewan, and Alberta). Newfoundland and Labrador, which became a province in 1949, is not assigned to any division, and is represented by 6 senators. The three territories (the Northwest Territories, the Yukon, and Nunavut) are allocated 1 senator each. Quebec senators are the only ones to be assigned to specific districts within their province. Historically, this was adopted to ensure that both French and English-speaking senators from Quebec were represented appropriately in the Senate.

As a result of this arrangement, Ontario, British Columbia, and Alberta — Canada's fastest growing provinces in terms of population — are severely under-represented, while the Maritimes are greatly over-represented. For example, British Columbia, with a population of about four million, is entitled to six senators, while Nova Scotia, with a population of fewer than one million, is entitled to ten. Only Quebec has a share of Senators proportional to its share of the total population. It should be noted that most other upper-houses worldwide do not use population as a basis for membership.

....
Murray-Austin amendment

On June 22, 2006 Senator Lowell Murray (PC-Ontario) and Senator Jack Austin (Liberal-British Columbia) introduced an amendment to the Constitution of Canada to alter the makeup of the Senate.[10] This amendment would enlarge the Senate to one hundred and seventeen members, giving a greater number to the western provinces of British Columbia (12), Alberta (10), Saskatchewan (seven), and Manitoba (seven) each up from six. The amendment would also increase the number of divisions to five by separating British Columbia into its own division, and increase the number of additional Senators the Queen can appoint to five or ten, from four or eight. Austin, in a letter to BC Premier Gordon Campbell claims to have the support of a majority of the members of the Liberal-dominated Senate.[11]

The amendment was debated on June 27 and 28 and then sent to a special committee on Senate Reform. That committee considered the amendment and, on October 26, endorsed it. The matter has been before the Senate since that time and, on December 11, Conservative Senator David Tkachuk proposed an amendment to the proposed constitutional amendment that would provide for twenty-four Senators for British Columbia. This amendment was seconded by Liberal Senator Larry Campbell.

Insight on the House of Commons from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_House_of_Commons)
The House of Commons is composed of 308 members, each of whom represents a single electoral district (also called a riding). Law requires that there be a minimum of 282 electoral districts; there are currently 308. Seats are distributed among the provinces in proportion to population, as determined by each decennial census, subject to the following exceptions made by the constitution. Firstly, the "senatorial clause" guarantees that each province will have at least as many Members of Parliament as Senators. Secondly, the "grandfather clause" guarantees each province has at least as many Members of Parliament now as it had in 1986. Finally, no province may lose more than fifteen per cent of its seats after a single decennial census.

As a result of these three clauses, smaller provinces and provinces that have experienced a relative decline in population are over-represented in the House. Only Ontario, British Columbia, and Alberta — Canada's fastest-growing provinces — are represented roughly in proportion to their populations. Provincial boundary commissions are responsible for drawing the boundaries of the electoral districts. Territorial representation is independent of population; each territory is entitled to only one seat. The calculation is done by taking the minimum 282 seats and subtracting the three terrorites to equal 279 seats. The population of Canada is then divided by 279 to equal the electoral quotient. The population of the province is then divided by the electoral quotient to equal the provincial seat allocation. (Source: Jackson & Jackson, Politics in Canada, Prentice Hall, Toronto, pg 438)

Alright, that's all the buildup of info for now. I know there are more questions to be raised, so raise away so we can brainstorm. My brain is mush tonight, but I'm sure I'll come up with more as time progresses. :cheers:

skyscraper_1

April 18th, 2007, 03:49 PM

Smevo

April 18th, 2007, 09:48 PM

Thanks for doing all this work Smevo! :)

This stat worries me

"Acadia...................1,779,310...941,040....838,270.........52.89........47.11.......5,847...........0.6"

53% urban? That is terrible, cities are the engine of culture, innovation and economic growth and rural areas, while beautiful, are very inefficient.That figure should be around 80%.

Yeah, that is pretty troubling, especially since nationally it's over 80%. Statscan seems to be inconsistent with its definition of "urban area" this census where it relates to smaller towns. Some glaring omissions are Miramichi (with Chatham-Douglastown only appearing in one menu as an "urban area") and Woodstock. Though small, these areas are surprisingly urban, especially when you consider areas they mention being urban such as Oromocto and Grand Falls. It's made me curious what their criteria is based on, as someone who's travelled extensively through this region. Even with these changes, it still wouldn't be anywhere near the national average though.

This does, however, give us some more fuel locally. One of PEI's arguments for being distinct is its rural areas, but that table shows that all three provinces are very similar as far as rural/urban population divide. If I get the chance, I might do a similar percentage by land area (as I did for the CBRM in the projects thread). I also might go back and do a province-by-province breakdown rather than trying to compare it with the whole country, just to see where we'd fit in.

The slow urban growth is also disturbing, not in the way of stealing from the rural areas, but in the lack of draw our urban areas have for interprovincial/international immigrants. :(

sudburyboy

April 25th, 2007, 01:18 AM

Haligonian

April 25th, 2007, 05:41 PM

Yes, the Maritimes are much more rural than other parts of the country. This is an unfortunate side effect of government handouts.

One important fact to consider is that towns, cities, and rural areas in the Maritimes aren't generally worse off than areas of comparable size elsewhere in Canada. The difference in wealth really comes down to the difference in urbanization, and the difference in urbanization can itself be totally accounted for by the lack of a major city like the kind that exist in every other part of the country.

Smevo

April 26th, 2007, 04:09 AM

well, why not send these in to your MP?
i know i could, if needed send these to my MP in ontario, if this ever got to parliment, no one can deny these numbers, and with help from say MPs from everywere, it might actually get done, theres great ideas on these threads, but no one ever follows through with them far enough to make a difference, anyone wants to talk about it PM me.

Working on it...I'm glad to see support from outside the region. It's possible that we might need you to send a letter to your MP, since we do need support from parliament following the 2/3 representing 1/2 rule for constitutional change.

The handouts idea is an absolute mess because, on the one hand, you get governments giving "handouts" to certain areas while on the other hand they're trying to get people from these same areas to move to the major centre(s) of the provinces. While I partially agree with you, Haligonian, it's not as one-sided as you usually depict.

If the cities were left to their own devices tomorrow without government interference, you would see Moncton, Halifax, and Charlottetown continue to do well, some areas continue to do poorly most likely Northern New Brunswick and "remote" (by Maritime standards) rural areas, and others like SJ and Sydney/GB turning the corner as well as possibly some smaller urban areas in the region (eg- New Glasgow/Stellarton, North Sydney/Sydney Mines). I separated the CBRM because, even though they are somewhat interdependent, they still develop separately in most ways. For example, even if the other three areas bounced back, New Waterford would still probably be last to do so if it ever really could. I'm on the fence as to how Fredericton would do since the government plays an enormous role in this city and the general capital region.

I should have some "freetime" to work a bit more on this now that school's done, though a good chunk of that "freetime" will be taken up by travelling to and from Saint John twice a week. Anyway, I'll probably get around to catching up on what I wanted to do in this thread and PM'ing this weekend. As for now, I just got home from a double shift that I drove back from SJ to work, so it's off to bed for me. :nuts:

Smevo

May 19th, 2007, 09:29 PM

I don't know how it's possible that I have less "freetime" now than during the schoolyear, but that's the case lately. Anyway, I'm still very much onboard and still plan to deliver on the promises I made for this thread earlier. Just want to keep up the chitchat! Keep those ideas and questions and concerns coming. I'm getting a little more fuel for our fire bit by bit, but I have to try to remember it all and put it all together to post here. Even if I do join the wave to Alberta, which looks like it may be the case, my move would be temporary (max 5 years) and I'd be moving back to the Maritimes (more specifically Sydney) after that, so my drive for this movement won't die out. We need to be more persistent than the "Province of Cape Breton" movement, which comes and goes in popularity, but is always there and being pushed by it's core supporters. We also have a much stronger case, imo, but we still have to keep an eye on them.

tap

May 30th, 2007, 12:31 PM

Hi all,

Is the movement getting together soon? I would like to sit in.

Plus is anyone interested in sitting in on a meeting of the Atlantica Party executive?

We will be discussing MU/AU.

Jonathan Dean

Smevo

May 30th, 2007, 07:34 PM

Hey Jonathan, I don't think I'll be able to make any meetings for a while with my trips to SJ and all. I might try to meet up with reddog one of these times down, but we'll see what unfolds. I'm guessing the earliest we could all meet would be mid-summer at an unknown location, though probably in Halifax. I'm sure it will be discussed in this thread when it comes up. I would like to have a meet before my move out west, because after that I won't be able to come back until I move back for good after about 5 years.

Smevo

June 20th, 2007, 02:03 AM

A roadblock that should have been pretty obvious to me has just dawned on me...a simple fix but it could very easily have opposition. Places within the new province with the same (or very similar) names. There aren't many, and they're all small villages, but they still exist. For example - Tracadie, NS and Tracadie-Sheila, NB. Also, Millville, NS (in Cape Breton) and Millville, NB. I think there's a few more too. Anyway, just something to consider. Let's keep this chatter up.

Other things that would have to be standardised would be minimum wage (it's close, but still slightly different) and public employee contracts along with many other things, but those are some examples. It's important to note that standardising does not mean decreasing.

On a related note, because it's been a long time since I made promises that I still haven't fulfilled, I'm going to reserve a day or two in the next week or two with the sole purpose of fulfilling the promises I made to this idea as well as filling in the blanks in the Sydney development thread as well.

The more stories that come out about the proposed Atlantic Gateway (though not the entire AIMS proposal), the more encouraged I am that this movement is the future of the region, and the best option. It's unusual to have such highly populated provinces such as Ontario, Quebec, BC, and Alberta in a country so sparsely populated as ours, but they're not breaking up anytime soon and this is the environment we have to compete in, so neither the status quo nor especially the prospect of province status for Cape Breton are realistically viable options for the survival of the region as anything more than a large retirement community. Anyway, I'll fill in more on the aforementioned days. I just want to keep this up and let everyone know I'm still committed to this movement.

skyscraper_1

July 4th, 2007, 07:03 PM

Just as a sad note, I have been hearing some stuff on the news about Cape Breton becoming its own province. Sillyness.

Atlantic Canada all together can hardly raise ears in Ottawa. Cape Breton hardly has a population equal to PEI it would be equally inable to have its voice heard.

Smevo

July 4th, 2007, 07:57 PM

Sadly, my access to the internet has been sporadic at best this summer, but I've been keeping up with that and it's becoming very concerning to me, and has motivated me even more into kicking myself in gear in support of this movement. I'm in SJ and hopefully meeting with Cliff tomorrow, so hopefully we'll have some more fuel and updates for everyone after that.

The updates on the CB Provincehood movement is that they've formed a shadow government and are planning (reportedly anyway) a general election for the shadow government for 2008. The formation of the shadow government, thankfully, does not ensure provincehood at all let alone that soon. It's going to be an impossible sell to Mr. MacNeil and Mr. Bill Davies of the movement, however what matters is the general population of the island. If they're successful, I'm very afraid that my opportunity to move back will very quickly disappear. If we're successful, however, I'm very sure that people will be more attracted to the Maritimes in general and every part of it. I'm still planning on including that group in my own letter writing, but I need to take a day next week to sit down and formulate the contents of the letters, which I'll host and post the link to for you guys and girls.

skyscraper_1

July 18th, 2007, 02:00 AM

The updates on the CB Provincehood movement is that they've formed a shadow government and are planning (reportedly anyway) a general election for the shadow government for 2008. The formation of the shadow government, thankfully, does not ensure provincehood at all let alone that soon. It's going to be an impossible sell to Mr. MacNeil and Mr. Bill Davies of the movement, however what matters is the general population of the island. If they're successful, I'm very afraid that my opportunity to move back will very quickly disappear. If we're successful, however, I'm very sure that people will be more attracted to the Maritimes in general and every part of it. I'm still planning on including that group in my own letter writing, but I need to take a day next week to sit down and formulate the contents of the letters, which I'll host and post the link to for you guys and girls.

Just the notion of Cape Breton province hood is silly. Not to beat up on Cape Breton but take a look at these numbers.

Unemployment rate
Province of Cape Breton.....................................16.0%
Province of Nova Scotia(mainland)....................7.7%

The province of Cape Breton would be dependent on the federal government for income

Estimate Federal government transfers of total budget

Province of Cape Breton..............~ 50%
Province of Nova Scotia................~25-30%

One of the whole arguments for the pro-province side is that they were forced to join NS without notice. This maybe true, but if we start yanking that string we soon realize that Nova Scotia as a whole was forced into confederation without a democratic vote. Should Nova Scotia separate from Canada? Well, maybe, but that is whole different thread.

Oh and I am working on a Atlantic Canada myths post so stay tuned......

Haligonian

July 18th, 2007, 06:13 PM

Some people exaggerate the history of Cape Breton and how it was "forced" into joining Nova Scotia.

First of all, Nova Scotia was originally everything between New England and Newfoundland, which theoretically included both Cape Breton and PEI, though early on they were not inhabited. Cape Breton was later divided from the mainland when it was kept by France in the early-mid 1700s. After it was re-captured, it was again part of Nova Scotia. In the late 1700s (1770s-80s) Nova Scotia was carved up and the pieces were used in various settlement schemes. New Brunswick was heavily settled by Loyalists but Cape Breton was not. It was re-absorbed into the mainland colony of Nova Scotia because it was far too small to be its own colony.

steve81

July 30th, 2007, 05:32 PM

The Cape Breton Provincehood Movement is nothing to be worried about. It simply can't happen legally without the approval of the Legislative Assembly of Nova Scotia.

skyscraper_1

September 2nd, 2007, 04:15 AM

Partners without a union

Telegraph-Journal August 29th, 2007

In Brief: News that the Maritime premiers and cabinets will meet this fall has some again talking about Maritime union. AIMS acting President Charles Cirtwill suggests that while there are benefits, there isn't the political will.

by Daniel McHardie

FREDERICTON - The rebirth of Maritime cabinet meetings could sweep major policy reforms into the region even though New Brunswick's premier is ruling out a formalized political union between New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island.

The concept of Canada got in the way of Maritime Union back in 1864 at the historic Charlottetown conference and ever since politicians, academics and citizens have weighed the advantages of reopening the merger debate.

Donald Savoie, the Canada research chair in public administration and governance at the Université de Moncton, is an unabashed supporter of Maritime Union. While he admits a full political merger is not likely soon, he has high hopes for these meetings.

"We should abolish all inhibitions to trade between the three Maritime provinces. Let's set a target for 12 months and let's do that," Savoie said. "There is no economic reason why we can't do that with a sense of urgency."

The British Columbia and Alberta governments used a joint cabinet meeting to announce the Trade, Investment and Labour Mobility Agreement, which has served as a standard for inter-provincial trade agreements. And Savoie said his Maritime free-trade idea could be born in a similar process.

Savoie said Maritime Union is increasingly a viable option with escalating global economic competition facing the three provinces. But he admits that such a shift would take a massive public debate and referendums.

"Maritime Union as a political union would be a difficult boat to row because there are still far too many vested interests in going with the status quo," he said. "It would require a hell of a sales job to explain a Maritime Union. So in the absence of that we do this co-operation."

When the three Maritime cabinets sit down for a joint meeting in October, Premier Shawn Graham said he will not be sidetracked by the broader debate of Maritime Union. Instead Graham said his government will keep its "laser focus" on the self-sufficiency agenda.

The New Brunswick premier said relegating the political union debate will give the three governments enough breathing room to start finding new ways of co-operating, which could lead to a different kind of merger.

"These meetings with respective cabinets at the table could be the genesis of concepts where we see agencies and commissions combined amongst respective jurisdictions to create greater economies of scale," Graham said. "That's why we want to take these tentative first steps to look at where we can achieve consensus by working together."

Graham, Nova Scotia Premier Rodney MacDonald and Prince Edward Island Premier Robert Ghiz announced on Monday the joint cabinet meeting at Mount Allison University in October. Four main themes will be explored: Developing the region's aerospace industry, opening the provinces as a gateway for North American commerce, fighting a shared problem of population decline and enhancing inter-Maritime trade.

The Maritime Union idea was studied by a royal commission in the 1960s, although that process was derailed over time by the waning interest of successive governments. Since then any formal merger of the provinces has given way to joint cabinet meetings or the Council of Atlantic Provinces, which holds meetings of the premiers or ministers on specific points of concern.

A national business leader reignited the debate in March. Catherine Swift, president and chief executive officer of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, called on the regional governments to examine union as a way to reduce red tape and cut costs.

Charles Cirtwill, the acting president of the Atlantic Institute for Market Studies, said the merger question makes for good debate but bad politics.

"From an administrative side of things and efficiency side of things there are all kinds of good arguments to make for it. But the simple fact of the matter is from a political perspective it is never going to happen.

"You are never going to get a political consensus from the three provinces and the populations thereof to merge."

http://www.aims.ca/inthemedia.asp?typeID=4&id=1842&fd=0&p=1

Smevo

October 5th, 2007, 10:07 PM

For anyone that has facebook, there were a couple of groups that started up for the Province of Cape Breton movement, they say don't believe the propoganda, but they had been spreading it themselves, bragging about the membership size of the two groups (double-counting members that were in both) and claiming to be a movement of only a couple of months, which was in August. I'm pretty sure they blocked me because it's an open group, and I have a "request to join" on the side instead a simple "join group". The blocking would have been because of a post I made in the anti-provincehood group which was basically just a copy-pasted post of skyscraper1's here. Anyway, here are the groups so you can check the chatter out for yourselves.

"I Support the Cape Breton Island Provincehood Campaign"
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2379552373
"Cape Breton Island - Canada's 11th Province!"
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2457796151

And finally the group I'm a part of (I'm just keeping an eye on the others)
"I Do Not support the Cape Breton Island Provincehood campaign"
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2359163250

If any of you are on facebook and feel like adding me, just PM me and I'll give you the link, or you can just find my post in the final group, you'll recognize it once you see it. Also, I plan on starting our own group there soon, and then I'll just edit the info when we get the blog up.

As for the other stuff I promised, I sound like a broken record, but I will be coming through on those eventually. I am starting to have a little more time, but I've been putting my upcoming photothreads as priority since I haven't posted one in a long time. I'm hoping to do one soon of the Acadian province's growth areas broken down by region, or it may be a series, I haven't decided yet.

Anyway, I didn't get to meet up with Cliff when I was in SJ, but if any of you Haligonians are interested, I'll be in Halifax the 12th and 13th of this month. Probably not 'til 9pm'ish on Friday and I'm not sure when we'll be leaving Saturday, but I'm going to try to make it late afternoon. Anyway, just lemme know. Also, I did get to meet up with HalifaxMTL666 from SSP, and we had an interesting talk about this issue, and he seems very supportive. He's living in Moncton now, originally from Rimouski but told me he was born in the Maritimes. Anyway, that's all for now. Even when I'm not posting frequently, I'm still checking in so keep the chatter going.

Oh, one more thing, there's a great book (I haven't finished it yet, but I've gotten through a chunk of it) related to our cause called "What Happened to the Blueprint for Atlantic Advance?" by H. A. Fredericks, who was involved with the APEC and was around the backroom dealings of the major players in the history of this movement. Anyway, I found it at Chapters (so Coles should have it too), and to where I've gotten so far, seems very valuable as a major source for our information.

Smevo

October 11th, 2007, 04:40 AM

Hmmm....they may know and be keeping an eye on us as well, it's seems I've been "unblocked" since my last post here. :wave: :lurker: :poke:

tap

October 23rd, 2007, 02:52 PM

Hello everyone,

We have updated our policies to affirm our support for a debate on Atlantic Union. It dovetails nicely with our ideas for reform; common sense and substantive steps forward for Atlantic Canada. We made the announcement a few days ago. To see the details check out the policy section on www.atlanticaparty.ca

It makes sense if we could meet sometime soon.

Cheers,

Jonathan Dean
info@atlanticaparty.ca

Smevo

November 2nd, 2007, 08:59 AM

Meeting would be ideal, but mobility is a bit of an issue. Even if people can get to the meeting location logistically, there's still the issue of classes and getting time off work, which usually ends up trumping the initiative. That being said, I haven't lost any drive for this and have been working away at more information and other things I've promised, I just want to get it put together neatly rather than haphazardly throwing things out there.

But to give you a sample, I've figured out what I have and don't have for a photo series. The tentative regional configuration consists of 11 Regions combining for 29 regional focal points for development. This may sound like a lot, but remember that it's not the goverment throwing development at these points, and each focal point and region itself would build on its strengths. For example, one would expect Digby or Shelburne to go after a headquarters of a multi-national corporation.

Anyway, out of these 29 focal points, I have yet to get photos for 11 of them, including nothing for the Cobequid or South Shore Regoins. Now, by the new year, I may be able to bring that number down to 7, but I'll still be leaving out the entire South Shore Region, so if anybody is willing and able to help out (just a few photos to show the character of the area instead of a comprehensive tour), reply to me in whatever form you please telling me which of the following you can contribute (the places with an asterisk are ones I may be able to get by the New Year, but that's assuming I get a battery charger by then which hopefully I will). The places are:

*Grand Falls, NB (5,650)
St. Stephen, NB (4,780)
Digby, NS (2,097)
*Truro, NS (22,376)
Enfield, NS (3,415)
Kentville, NS (13,552)
Yarmouth, NS (7,162)
Shelburne, NS (1,879)
Bridgewater, NS (8,021)
*Port Hawkesbury, NS (3,517)
*Antigonish, NS (4,665)

A curious question that came to my mind a couple of days ago was about naming of institutions. Obviously the Community College systems would have to be standardized, merged, and operated under a new name (not merging campuses, just the "head office" operations if you will) perhaps Community College of Acadia - X Campus where X is the community/historic figurehead's name. UPEI and CBU shouldn't have problems because of the island effect, but how relevant would UNB's name be and how much opposition would we face from them? And Acadia University's name would take on a whole new connotation (for better or worse?). Anyway, just some food for thought. I'll hopefully have a facebook group up and running by the end of the weekend, I've just got to figure out how to display the information in a way suitable to the site. Anyway, I'll post the link when it's up.

tap

November 20th, 2007, 03:28 PM

Does this union group have a presence on Facebook?

jd

Smevo

November 20th, 2007, 08:58 PM

Working on it, I'm working on a temporary blog as a website to link a group to first though. I'll post both links once they're up. Hopefully they'll both be up after this weekend. :)

tap

November 21st, 2007, 12:23 AM

Smevo check your messages.

jd

tap

November 21st, 2007, 12:24 AM

You all may be interested in this:

http://www.theguardian.pe.ca/index.cfm?sid=81070&sc=98

jd

Smevo

December 7th, 2007, 06:57 AM

Interesting reader comments posted on there, a good mix of opinions for sure. Thanks for posting Mr. Dean.

I'm currently working on a blog, and have set up an email account for the movement, and have given Reddog794 and skyscraper1 the login info for both. I've drafted a couple of posts, but want to get some tables up before I publish any of them. Anyway, I'll keep you posted and give the link when I've done so. As soon as I publish the first posts, I'll set up the associated facebook group as well, so I'll post all the links together. Just wanted to give some progress. :cheers:

Edit: replied to your message tap...almost got to Halifax this weekend, but it was a last minute thought and then a last minute cancellation. :(

cormiermax

January 24th, 2008, 10:29 PM

i like the idea so we could stop getting pushed around.

tap

February 8th, 2008, 06:19 PM

We have a new Facebook group; 'Atlantica Party' where a good discussion on union should happen.

jd

tap

March 8th, 2008, 02:23 PM

Hello,

We have a series of public meetings coming up that will definitely include discussions on Union and we need an email address from all who are interested so we can keep you in the loop regarding times & places.

Send a quick email to info@atlanticaparty.ca

jd

tap

March 12th, 2008, 07:19 PM

Our initial meeting schedule as been posted at www.atlanticaparty.ca/html/events.html

And we are also accepting members now.

jd

tap

March 20th, 2008, 03:43 PM

Atlantica Party leader to appear on Breakfast TV on March 26th around 7:20 am

tap

October 8th, 2008, 11:35 PM

We are starting up fall activities.

We want to start riding associations in Nova Scotia and to become registered as a party in anticipation for the next provincial election. If you are interested in running as a candidate, being an organizer or volunteering please let us know.

Also look for our political blog which will be starting soon.

tap

March 12th, 2010, 04:21 PM

N.S. gets new party for next election

By CLARE MELLOR Staff Reporter
Wed. Mar 10 - 4:35 PM
The Atlantica Party is readying itself for the next election.

Elections Nova Scotia approved the Atlantica Party’s registration as an official party Monday.
“It feels good,” party leader Jonathan Dean said Tuesday.

The Atlantica Party has been around four years but was not registered during the last provincial election in 2009. Dean ran as an independent in the election, finishing last with 51 votes in the riding of Halifax Clayton Park.

“(Registration) will provide us with the legitimacy that we need in order to engage Nova Scotians on a number of different issues,” Dean said.

“It is one more step forward in us being able to present a full slate of candidates in the next election.”

Registration requires a minimum of 250 signatures of qualified voters in Nova Scotia. At least 25 of those signatures must be from 10 different electoral districts, said Dana Phillip Doiron, a spokesman for Elections Nova Scotia, on Tuesday.

Dean said that the party, which he describes as a “reform-minded pro-democracy party,” will probably run a candidate in Yarmouth when a provincial byelection is called there.

Former Conservative Yarmouth MLA Richard Hurlburt recently resigned his post.

The Atlantica Party will work over the next three years to form riding associations and attract candidates, said Dean.

“The party itself is actually more of a reform movement that has taken the form of a political party, so we are very much a grassroots self-organizing entity,” he said.

“Once we get the message out there that we are legitimate and we are for real and we mean business, then I think we’ll see a lot of interest across the province.”

AP has a regional view of Atlantic Canada and wants to promote economic and political unity of the region.