What's the current progress on Belfort - Delle (CH)?

I think you're from Germany?! Here you can find some information (german): http://www.bav.admin.ch/hgv/01872/01878/01915/index.html?lang=de

Just click on "Biel-Delle" or "Delle-Belfort".

The project is a bit delayed - planned inauguration is now by the end of 2014 instead of 2012.

Sources : elysees.fr

TGV Duplex rame d'essai

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/1341/39149307.jpg (http://img545.imageshack.us/i/39149307.jpg/)

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4402/10afb.jpg (http://img16.imageshack.us/i/10afb.jpg/)

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2271/10bzy.jpg (http://img193.imageshack.us/i/10bzy.jpg/)

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3669/10des.jpg (http://img215.imageshack.us/i/10des.jpg/)

TGV du 30ème anniversaire

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/8475/93515039.jpg (http://img641.imageshack.us/i/93515039.jpg/)

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/1079/58953688.jpg (http://img801.imageshack.us/i/58953688.jpg/)

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/1615/92405666.jpg (http://img708.imageshack.us/i/92405666.jpg/)

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/111/41893290.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/i/41893290.jpg/)

I think you're from Germany?! Here you can find some information (german): http://www.bav.admin.ch/hgv/01872/01878/01915/index.html?lang=de

Just click on "Biel-Delle" or "Delle-Belfort".

The project is a bit delayed - planned inauguration is now by the end of 2014 instead of 2012.

According to this project page there will be direct TGV Paris - Biel (Bienne) via Belfort.

According to this project page there will be direct TGV Paris - Biel (Bienne) via Belfort.

No, you got it wrong. There won't be a TGV Paris-Biel... But there will be a good connecting service Biel<->Belfort-Montbeliard TGV with a RE (RegioExpress) service.

Sources : elysees.fr

TGV Duplex rame d'essai

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2271/10bzy.jpg
Il est entrain de dire: "de quoi il me parle lui??" :lol:

Vidéo de la rame 746 en ligne et de l'interieur à 350km/h sur la lgv rhin-rhone.

uf60lcDZxAo

RFF : Réseau Férré de France

jn8UPj2kalw

5mErMnSVs9Q

Gadiri, c'est celui là le TGV que nous avons commandé ?

Gadiri, c'est celui là le TGV que nous avons commandé ?

Oui, c'est un TGV Duplex 2N2, le thread sur le forum marocain : TGV Duplex | 320 km/h | 14 Units | 400 millions € | #Being Acquired (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1238619&page=8)

TGV 30 ans

ZZ-FncKLayM

La SNCF fête les 30 ans de son TGV Lyon-Paris

G19QymTiuTo

SNCF célèbre 30 ans de TGV

7AIgqWbDf9Q

DoUWRh-lpsA

80Ltf5T3j18

Le TGV cherche un nouveau souffle pour ses 30 ans

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SNCF et RFF : Travaux et cadencement de 2011 a 2016

z3R6atAS2mc

Gare de Lyon, Paris
New yellow platforms hall construction.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34474.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34477.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34486.jpg

in the new timetable the majority of French trains will run according to a new schedules.
SNCF has put up a preview here:
http://horaires2012-sncf.com

Here you can see what's changed, and what opportunities SNCF missed...

Gare Saint Lazare, Paris
Renovation.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34450.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34456.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34453.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34455.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34470.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34461.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34459.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34463.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34464.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34466.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34468.jpg

From December 2011 onwards, a new rail company will start operating in France. It's Thello (http://www.thello.com/index.html), who'll operate trains between Paris, Milan and Venice.

Meanwhile, Artesia, the SNCF-Trenitalia join venture, will be terminated.

From December 2011 onwards, a new rail company will start operating in France. It's Thello (http://www.thello.com/index.html), who'll operate trains between Paris, Milan and Venice.


Two months to go to the new timetable, and all they've got to show for the moment is a new corporate identity. No information on schedules, no possibility to book tickets. Looks like they still have some way to go..

I hope they will at least put decent sleepers back in the Paris - Venice train.

Two months to go to the new timetable, and all they've got to show for the moment is a new corporate identity. No information on schedules, no possibility to book tickets. Looks like they still have some way to go..

I hope they will at least put decent sleepers back in the Paris - Venice train.

And there is no information about Paris - Rome train. Whole web page doesn't look good.

And there is no information about Paris - Rome train. Whole web page doesn't look good.

There will be no night trains to Rome at least until June 2012. Passengers can connect with 30 daily Milan-Rome fast trains. Much better than adding 5h30 on old tracks with a night train!

There will be no night trains to Rome at least until June 2012. Passengers can connect with 30 daily Milan-Rome fast trains. Much better than adding 5h30 on old tracks with a night train!

But having to get up at 5 o clock in the morning is something not all passengers will appreciate... And a HST doesn't save you that much time over just continuing the night train if you consider that Trenitalia probably won't want to sell you a ticket for a train to Rome unless it leaves an hour after your arrival by nighttrain in Milano...

But having to get up at 5 o clock in the morning is something not all passengers will appreciate... And a HST doesn't save you that much time over just continuing the night train if you consider that Trenitalia probably won't want to sell you a ticket for a train to Rome unless it leaves an hour after your arrival by nighttrain in Milano...

Milan will be a final destination of one of such trains. Maybe they will schedule a very late departure from Paris-Bercy like 0h30, so that trains arrive in Milano around 8h - still abysmal, as a day train can complete the trip in less than 6h travel time.

Milan will be a final destination of one of such trains. Maybe they will schedule a very late departure from Paris-Bercy like 0h30, so that trains arrive in Milano around 8h - still abysmal, as a day train can complete the trip in less than 6h travel time.

They could also do something similar to what the Caledonian sleeper does: Just leave the train standing in the station for a while, so that passengers can sleep in.
Leave Paris at a normal time (around 9 in the evening), drop some cars in Milano and have part of the train continue to Venice, and part to Rome.

Rumors have it that Thello also wants a commercial stop in Switzerland. That would point towards an early departure in Paris, rather than a late one...

But having to get up at 5 o clock in the morning is something not all passengers will appreciate... And a HST doesn't save you that much time over just continuing the night train if you consider that Trenitalia probably won't want to sell you a ticket for a train to Rome unless it leaves an hour after your arrival by nighttrain in Milano...

I would definitely prefer to wake up at 9 o'clock so I have to change trains in Venize so the route is much longer.

Bercelona, Paris, London, Amsterdam and Rome are the biggest tourist cities in Europe and there is market for overnight trains between all of them.

Elipsos prove that good service, promotions, marketing and quality makes the night train 100% full. Elipsos 1st class with shower, a la carte menu in train restaurant and continental breakfast is night to remember.

They could also do something similar to what the Caledonian sleeper does: Just leave the train standing in the station for a while, so that passengers can sleep in.
Leave Paris at a normal time (around 9 in the evening), drop some cars in Milano and have part of the train continue to Venice, and part to Rome.


Exactly, arrive in Milano early and then sleepers stay standing until 9:30 or so and people could leave train or sleep further.

Some overnight ships make like this. Arrive at night 3:00 for example but passengers can leave either 3:00 or 6:00 or 8:00 whatever time they like, very good solution.

^^ It seems quite a waste of space to leave a train idling in a platform on morning peak time...

^^ It seems quite a waste of space to leave a train idling in a platform on morning peak time...

Yes, but likely necessary as the morning rush prevents any open paths for the run back to the carriage depot for cleaning and provisioning. Older European terminal stations tend to be massive affairs (a legacy of infrastructure intensive locomotive hauled trains), so the tradeoff is not that great, perhaps.

^^ It seems quite a waste of space to leave a train idling in a platform on morning peak time...

Milano Centrale has a lot of spare capacity. Even during the morning peak...

Where can I find a detailed map with all railways from France (including closed railways)?

Thello trains, a Trenitalia-Veolia joint venture, will start operating Dec. 11th on this schedule:

https://www.thello.com/_meta/pictures/Prices_Schedules/Horaire_thello_-_21.png

What I really don't understand is why Dijon-Milano takes 75min more than Milano-Dijon

What I really don't understand is why Dijon-Milano takes 75min more than Milano-Dijon

Does one direction have significantly more uphill than the other, perchance?

What I really don't understand is why Dijon-Milano takes 75min more than Milano-Dijon

I believe its got to do with peak hour sharing of tracks with other trains as they head into city terminals.

Thello trains, a Trenitalia-Veolia joint venture, will start operating Dec. 11th on this schedule:

https://www.thello.com/_meta/pictures/Prices_Schedules/Horaire_thello_-_21.png

What I really don't understand is why Dijon-Milano takes 75min more than Milano-Dijon

Could have something to do with maintenance in the Simplon tunnel, or in France. As soon as SBB uploads it's graphical timetables we will know more.

It leaves from Paris Lyon ? Usually night trains depart from Paris Bercy.

It leaves from Paris Lyon ? Usually night trains depart from Paris Bercy.
Artesia trains (SNCF) used to leave from Bercy, it's seems that Veolia chose Paris Lyon, which is much better.

Map Network TER Nord-Pas-de-Calais:
Major stations Lille Europe, Lille Flanders, Arras, Calais ...

TER Nord-Pas-de-Calais is the regional express transport network of the administrative region of Nord-Pas-de-Calais. With 1,300 miles of network, it is the densest network after that the Île-de-France.

The network first existed as a regional transit (TCR), which was the first in France, then in 1997 he was chosen as the test network with other networks to try the regional express transport (TER).

Regional trains are used by 112000 passengers every day.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/TER_map_Nord-Pas-de-Calais_II.png/800px-TER_map_Nord-Pas-de-Calais_II.png

http://www.lavoixdunord.fr/stories/image460x00/mediastore/VDN/Region/A2010/M08/_100817-ter-pi.jpg

http://6f.img.v4.skyrock.net/6f6/luckylucky62/pics/2959267569_2_7_47PqRxkI.jpg

http://www.zoomsurlille.fr/images/stories/articles/gare_lille_europe.jpg

http://d2ghi3veuw5n4i.cloudfront.net/4ebf5cc3d332d5a88a216201b9ba764b

http://www.casimages.com/img/070308054433375530.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Gare_de_Valenciennes.jpg/800px-Gare_de_Valenciennes.jpg

Only 57,000 people?

No, I was wrong these are good numbers!

Attendance

More than 112 000 passengers daily or 34.5% + attendance between 2002 and 2008 (5.6% between 2007 and 2008)

Equipment

- 74 stations with ATMs (including 13 railway lines)

- 806 TER (including 34 + TGV TERGV allowed) and 15 cars circulate daily

- 129 breakpoints in the Nord-Pas de Calais

- 1430 Km of lines

http://www.ter-sncf.com/Regions/nord_pas_de_calais/Fr/A_propos_de_TER/Marques_TER/Chiffres_TER/Default.aspx

These are pictures from the station of Lens (62), a city that will host the opening of the Louvre in 2012!
Station Lens to a form of locomotive with its large fireplace!
http://image-photos.linternaute.com/image_photo/640/1291895400/1377229.jpg
http://image-photos.linternaute.com/image_photo/640/1226007803/1377245.jpg
http://image-photos.linternaute.com/image_photo/640/1004521303/1377231.jpg
http://image-photos.linternaute.com/image_photo/640/1225063086/1377254.jpg
View of mine tailings from the docks of the Gare de Lens.
http://image-photos.linternaute.com/image_photo/640/1315838809/1377846.jpg
photos prise de l'internaute voyages © Gérard ROBERT

Versailles-Chantier http://www.metro-pole.net/x/RER_17.gifhttp://www.metro-pole.net/x/RER-C_17.gifhttp://www.metro-pole.net/x/IdF2_17.gifhttp://www.metro-pole.net/x/IdF2-N_17.gifhttp://www.metro-pole.net/x/IdF2-U_17.gif
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34326.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34283.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34281.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34289.jpg
A TER (I don't know of what Region) bound to Montparnasse, also notice the blue double decker RER C on the other platform.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34287.jpg
http://www.metro-pole.net/x/IdF2_17.gifhttp://www.metro-pole.net/x/IdF2-N_17.gif Bound to Montparnasse and coming from Rambouillet.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34291.jpg
http://www.metro-pole.net/x/IdF2_17.gifhttp://www.metro-pole.net/x/IdF2-U_17.gif Bound to La Verrière and coming from La Défense
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC34292.jpg

A TER (I don't know of what Region) bound to Montparnasse, also notice the blue double decker RER C on the other platform.


Basse Normandie.

Question: How do you travel to and from CDG Airport and the main railway station at the capital/center (Gare De Nord)???

Wikipedia said I should take something like this one:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Gare_CDG_2.JPG/800px-Gare_CDG_2.JPG

But it doesn't give specific information (like what is the name of the train or service, how many stations do I need to travel, if I need to transfer or not, etc etc.)

Assuming that I'm a first time visitor in France, can you kindly teach me how to travel by train between CDG Airport railway station and main railway station at the center/capital?

Thanks :)

P.S.
There is another airport rail link service being proposed called CDG Express:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDG_Express

Thing is, why is the ending destination at "East station" (Gare De Est)? Shouldn't the direct connection land at the main station "the north" (Gare Du Nord)?

Just a thought.......

No, that an hi-speed train, it's expensive and rare and designed for traveling for long distance and require pre-booking a seat, and you need a cheaper and more frequent one - local train line RER B - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RER_B

It has express and regural trains, but don't worry - both regural and express trains stops both at Airport and at Gare Nord.

There is no main station in Paris... There are several main hubs... Gare du Nord is important as the name says for northbound high-speed services (London, Brussels, Amsterdam, Lille, ...), Gare de Est for eastbound high-speed services (Strasbourg, Germany, Switzerland [just till the timetable change in December], ...), and so on. Gare de Est and Gare du Nord are just 15 minutes walk away from each other.

No, that an hi-speed train, it's expensive and rare and designed for traveling for long distance and require pre-booking a seat, and you need a cheaper and more frequent one - local train line RER B - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RER_B

It has express and regural trains, but don't worry - both regural and express trains stops both at Airport and at Gare Nord.

Yeah, I heard about RER........but I think it's more of the suburban rail type.

So with that said, I'm presuming the fastest airport rail link (CDG<->City Center) is still by TGV bullet train. :)

So yeah, what would the route map be like:
CDG Airport Railway Station (TGV)<->Gare Du Nord

Is it one straight/direct service or do I need to make a transfer or switch trains? :)

Yeah, I heard about RER........but I think it's more of the suburban rail type.

So with that said, I'm presuming the fastest airport rail link (CDG<->City Center) is still by TGV bullet train. :)

So yeah, what would the route map be like:
CDG Airport Railway Station (TGV)<->Gare Du Nord

Is it one straight/direct service or do I need to make a transfer or switch trains? :)
Yes, it will be faster, but if you don't care to pay extra money and do extra paperwork to win like 10 minute of difference... Than it's ok.

Yes, it will be faster, but if you don't care to pay extra money and do extra paperwork to win like 10 minute of difference... Than it's ok.

Hehe don't worry. Money would be no object for me on this one. I.e. what I give up with higher fare, I gain back with faster traveling time and efficiency.

So yeah, what's the route map? (no one said anything yet) :)

TGV from CDG Airport don't go to Paris, but to other cities. CDG's TGV station is served only by trains like Lille-CDG-Lyon.

Hmm.........aww, but I think there is (sorry if I sound stubborn or hard-headed).

Either way, I think the clue(s) lie/s in these train stations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gare_de_TGV_Haute-Picardie
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gare_d%27Arras
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lille_Europe_railway_station

Assuming that I'm a first time visitor in France, can you kindly teach me how to travel by train between CDG Airport railway station and main railway station at the center/capital?


There are two railway stations at CDG airport.

There's a station at T3 that is served by RER (commuter) trains, and one at T3 that is served both by RER and TGV trains. The RER trains go to Paris Nord. The TGVs go everywhere (even to Belgium) but Paris proper. The CDG TGV station is on a connecting line that connects the LGV Nord with the LGV EST and the LGV Sud-Est, so it is only used by trains bypassing Paris, what the SNCF calls "inter sector" trains.


There is another airport rail link service being proposed called CDG Express:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDG_Express

Thing is, why is the ending destination at "East station" (Gare De Est)? Shouldn't the direct connection land at the main station "the north" (Gare Du Nord)?

That is indeed planned. The reason for using Paris Est is that it has a lot of spare capacity, so it's an easy solution.
However, they could use Paris Nord if they used that station more efficiently. (In fact, they could run the LGV-Est trains to Paris Nord too...)

With the RER it only takes 15 minutes from CDG to Paris Nord, you can't go faster by rail right now.


A TGV service between CDG and Paris Nord is in theory possible, but it would only use only a few KMs of proper High Speed line that is already congested. In other words it wouldn't save that much time (5 min. max) and it would give problems to the real TGV services coming in and out of Paris. And it wouldn't have the advantage of the RER that also takes you beyond Paris Nord straight into the hart of the city with halts at the Notre Dame for example.

btw, if you want to use the TGV right now from CDG to Paris Nord it will take a couple of hours. It's not a real option.

http://www.metro-pole.net/x/IdF2_17.gifhttp://www.metro-pole.net/x/IdF2-H_17.gif Epinay Villetaneuse
Z 50000 bound to Montsoult - Maffliers
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC35859.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC35861.jpg
Left Z2N and in the right a VB2N bound to Paris Gare du Nord
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC35862.jpg


With the RER it only takes 15 minutes from CDG to Paris Nord, you can't go faster by rail right now.

It is 25 min, not 15 min.
The express service Gare du Nord - CDG of the RER B will disappear by 2012 during the rush hour.
Every train will be local and will stop at every station.

btw, if you want to use the TGV right now from CDG to Paris Nord it will take a couple of hours. It's not a real option.

Yikes two hours?

Hmm.....it looks like it isn't a suggestible option at the moment.

Anyways
I just browsed through the french version of the wiki page (even though I don't read French):
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDG_Express

Someone mentioned that if the project is approved, the target completion date would be year 2016. :)

The CDG Express project is almost dead by now, the RATP proposed an express train departing from the surface platforms of Gare du Nord.

I noticed that there is direct TGV Lille Europe - Mullhouse trains via Strasbourg:

Lille Europe 11:26
Mulhouse Ville 15:47

Basel is only 36 km further, so why not extend this connection to Basel, which is the important destination??

Lille is much more better exchange place than Paris so it could be also a great option for Eurostar and Thalys passengers traveling to Switzerland.

I noticed that there is direct TGV Lille Europe - Mullhouse trains via Strasbourg:

Lille Europe 11:26
Mulhouse Ville 15:47

Basel is only 36 km further, so why not extend this connection to Basel, which is the important destination??

Lille is much more better exchange place than Paris so it could be also a great option for Eurostar and Thalys passengers traveling to Switzerland.

There are actually two such TGVs. One goes via Strassbourg, the other via Dijon. Continuing them to Basel would be a good idea, but I'm afraid the whole idea of train services being part of a network is only starting to trickle down to the timetable planners at the SNCF.
If one were to extend this train to Basel it would arrive there around 16:15 which would be perfect to allow connections to everywhere in Switzerland.

There are also some practical issues however. SBB and SNCF actually want to get rid of the French section of the railway station in Basel, so that realy only TGVs that can run in Switzerland can be used here...

Now what I think might be a good idea, and one that would interest the Swiss too, would be a TGV Brussel - Lille Europe - CDG - Strassbourg - Basel - Bern. The Swiss governement would really like to have a train between Bern, Strassbourg and Brussel again, and such a train would offer quite a few interesting possibilities...

We might get something like that in the near future anyway if Eurostar runs to Basel.

color full trains

By the way, Switzerland is a contributor of the new Rhin Rhone LGV.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Graphique_Financement_TGV_Rhin-Rh%C3%B4ne.svg/500px-Graphique_Financement_TGV_Rhin-Rh%C3%B4ne.svg.png
Confédération Helvétique = Switzerland

French State : 32%, €751 million
RRF (French Rail Network) : 28%, €642 million
Franche-Comté Region : 14%, €312 million
Alsace region : 9%, €206 million
European Union : 8%, €200 million
Bourgogne region : 6%, €131 million
Switzerland : 3%, €66 million

color full trains
The interior of the Z50000 is even more colorfull.
HspEoqHYaq8

RIbSnYI-I4E

VEOLIA has today announced its intention to sell its transport business as part of a plan to dispose of up to Euros 5bn worth of assets in the next two years. The French company is under pressure to stem a slump in its share price in the wake of two successive profit warnings.

Veolia will now sell its 50% share in Veolia Transdev, despite only completing the merger in April.

Story continues Here (http://www.railjournal.com/newsflash/veolia-to-exit-transport-market-1412.html)

Guessing time: When do you think the new Alstom AGV bullet trains will be used in France?

Guessing time: When do you think the new Alstom AGV bullet trains will be used in France?

In 2007 SNCF ordered their latest trains, a batch of 50 TGV Duplex. The next order may be for AGV, maybe when it's time to replace the TGVs on the Paris Sud Est route. Alstom is working on a Duplex version of the AGV.

Since SNCF has a 20% stake in NTV, they might be able to get a look at how well NTV and their customers receive the AGV.

I don't know did this video about AGV is already posted here, but it is interesting.

Alstom AGV 001

http://cdn.streamlike.com/hosting/alstom2/page.php?med_id=df7b2e289910f45d&lng=en&channel=transport&language=all&type=detailed&number=10

Alstom AGV 001 test run in France, 360kmh, December 2008

http://cdn.streamlike.com/hosting/alstom2/page.php?med_id=c5b4b75c3dbfd3f5&lng=en&channel=transport&language=all&orderClause=date&type=detailed&number=10&offset=10

AGV NTV

http://cdn.streamlike.com/hosting/alstom2/page.php?med_id=27508765eecf291d&lng=en&channel=transport&language=all&type=detailed&number=10

Are there any plans to speed up the Brussels-Paris line?
I might be working in Brussels in a couple of years, but I really think the town sucks (sorry if anyone gets offended).
I'd much rather live in Paris and commute daily.

Today, that isn't really viable; so do they plan to increase the speed of that particular line?

Have you visited bruxelles?

Have you visited bruxelles?

Yeah? Why would I say it sucks if I hadn't visit?

Are there any plans to speed up the Brussels-Paris line?

That's unlikely given the current economic situation of Belgium as well as France.

Since the line is already built for 300 km/h, upgrading it would cost millions and the benefits would be little; even if the line itself would be upgraded to 360 km/h and there would be AGV rolling stock, that wouldn't mean that 1/5th of the travel time would be slashed, since a higher top speed needs more time for acceleration and deceleration.

Maybe 1/10th is a realistic time gain. Currently Thalys takes 1h22 to get from Paris Nord to Brussels South. That's 82 minutes. 1/10th of that is an improvement of... 8 minutes.

So all in all, the time gained is only a couple of minutes. Any cost/benefit analysis would advise against such an investment.

I might be working in Brussels in a couple of years, but I really think the town sucks (sorry if anyone gets offended).


If you want to live somewhere that sucks less and commute daily, look at Antwerpen, Gent or Leuven.
You don't need to go as far as Paris. Commuting from Paris would be an expensive proposition anyway.

Ok, thanks guys.

So all in all, the time gained is only a couple of minutes. Any cost/benefit analysis would advise against such an investment.

A more meaningful investment would be to build a tunnel connecting Gare du Nord and Gare de Lyon, and build a new underground TGV station in the middle of Paris. That would save a lot of time for a lot of people...

Why would they upgrade a 300 km/h line? They need to speed up Antwerp-Brussels first.

That's unlikely given the current economic situation of Belgium as well as France.

Since the line is already built for 300 km/h, upgrading it would cost millions and the benefits would be little; even if the line itself would be upgraded to 360 km/h and there would be AGV rolling stock, that wouldn't mean that 1/5th of the travel time would be slashed, since a higher top speed needs more time for acceleration and deceleration.

Maybe 1/10th is a realistic time gain. Currently Thalys takes 1h22 to get from Paris Nord to Brussels South. That's 82 minutes. 1/10th of that is an improvement of... 8 minutes.

So all in all, the time gained is only a couple of minutes. Any cost/benefit analysis would advise against such an investment.

Actually the alignment was built for 350km/h, so the only real restriction is the rolling stock. Still, thats a lot rolling stock to replace.

France learnt their lesson with the LGV Sud-Est and made sure future routes had some future proofing. Unfortunately I can only find the wikipedia page to support that, the French (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Nord) one states curve radius of 6000m (good for 400km/h), with some 4000m (good for 320-330km/h), but this isn't where I originally read this.

Found another link though http://www.railfaneurope.net/tgv/tgvnord.html

Actually the alignment was built for 350km/h, so the only real restriction is the rolling stock. Still, thats a lot rolling stock to replace.

Not as much as you might think.

There are 17 PBKA sets, still all in service.

There were 10 TGV réseau tricourant sets specially adapted, and re-painted
in red, for circulation to Amsterdam (they don't have 15 kV so they can't
go to Germany). One has been returned to the TGV réseau fleet.

There are ordinary TGV réseau tricourant for the missions to the south of
Paris.

And then there is the Eurostar fleet, which is going to be renewed.

So we don't speak about that much sets, and some of them are already
quite well worn-out, despite the Lacroix refurbishing.

So I don't think that the obstacle would be the rolling stock.

The eurostar sets aren't going to be renewed any timesoon,at least another 10 years. They are expanding the fleet but with sets capable of only 320km/h.

There is not a single set currently operating on the LGV Nord that can do 350km/h. As there are no other significant obstacles saying "So I don't think that the obstacle would be the rolling stock. " is confusing to me. What other obstacles would it be then?

The eurostar sets aren't going to be renewed any timesoon,at least another 10 years. They are expanding the fleet but with sets capable of only 320km/h.

Which is something I do not understand. Why is the Eurostar fleet extended ?
There are sets in the current fleet that are not used :

- Although they could perfectly be used for the services to Brussels, the NOL
sets are not used for channel traffic

- SNCF uses some of its sets for french domestic traffic

- There was one belgian set that was left unused for years in the Brussels
South depot. It has now be taken over by SNCF too.

So before buidling a new fleet, why is the existing one not operated properly ?
And why is expansion necessary ?

Expansion is necessary as Eurostar wants to expand its services. Eurostar wants to offer direct trains to Amsterdam and Geneva, and the current fleet is equipped with the necessary systems for the Netherlands and Switzerland. The current TGV TMST trainsets can't go to the Netherlands (no ATB-EG, no ERTMS) and can't go to Switzerland either (no 15 kV installation).

The new e320-trains should fix this.

Expansion is necessary as Eurostar wants to expand its services. Eurostar wants to offer direct trains to Amsterdam and Geneva, and the current fleet is equipped with the necessary systems for the Netherlands and Switzerland. The current TGV TMST trainsets can't go to the Netherlands (no ATB-EG, no ERTMS) and can't go to Switzerland either (no 15 kV installation).


Actually you don't need 15kV to get to Geneva. The current Eurostar sets could probably already run there, as the line is "French" all the way to Cornavin.

Indeed, Geneva has always been served by regular TGVs, SudEst or Duplex. In this example Eurostar just needs the extra capacity to start a new service.

Ah, I didn't know that. One learns every day :)

In other news, RFF has granted a € 80 million contract to a consortium led by Alstom to electrify and upgrade an 80 km line between Valence and Moirans. See IRJ (http://www.railjournal.com/newsflash/rff-awards-contract-to-upgrade-valence-rail-link-1433.html)

The line to Geneva is 1500 V DC though, and not all EuroStar sets can run under it.

The line to Geneva is 1500 V DC though, and not all EuroStar sets can run under it.

Why not? Everything to the north of Paris (including Gare du Nord) is 1500 V except for the LGVs.

Not really. :ohno:

All the 1500 V in France is to the SOUTH of Paris:

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/france/france.gif

Not really. :ohno:

All the 1500 V in France is to the SOUTH of Paris:

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/france/france.gif

Humm, once again I am mistaken. Obviously it's not my best day, because I knew this.

Anyway, since Eurostar also serves destinations in the south of France (ski destinations for example) all their trains should already be 1500 V capable, no?

You are right, it's not your best day! :)

The line to Geneva is 1500 V DC though, and not all EuroStar sets can run under it.

Some TGV Eurostar can operate under 1500 V DC. I don't know how many, but certainly not all.

You are right, it's not your best day! :)
Hopefully I'll be better at it by tomorrow :cheers:
Some TGV Eurostar can operate under 1500 V DC. I don't know how many, but certainly not all.

I looked it up on Wikipedia, where I found this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_373#Power):
Five of the SNCF-owned sets are quadri-voltage, being able to operate from 1,500 V DC (French lignes classiques) in the south of France; these sets are used for London–Avignon and ski services.

The line to Geneva is 1500 V DC though, and not all EuroStar sets can run under it.

It is going to be converted to 25kV though. Don't know about Bourg - Macon though. That would also need to be converted so trains can reach Geneva from Paris without passing under 1500V.

I think serving Geneva will become interesting for Eurostar once the CEVA line is complete in Geneva, because then easy connections can be offered both to the French and the Swiss Alps from the same service.

And also AlexNL, I thought all the 200m Three-capitals half-sets were in operation on Eurostar, with no spares. All the 'spares' are the shorter NoL half-sets in use with SCNF?

Can anyone clarify? I've always found trying to understand where the Eursotars are difficult.

Bourg-Mâcon will remain 1500 V DC for a while as SNCF has still many DC only stock.

The original Eurostar fleet consisted of:
3001-3022 Eurostar UK (11 long sets)
3101-3108 SNCB (4 long sets)
3201-3232 SNCF (16 long sets)
3301-3314 Eurostar UK (7 short sets)
3999 spare locomotive

That's 38 sets (76 half sets) and 77 locomotives. Each half set is numbered indipendently. The long ones have 9 coaches, the short ones 7 (18 and 14 plus 2 locomotives for the whole train).

How many long sets are in the Eurostar pools? Or are some used by SNCF alongside the 7 short sets for domestic LGV Nord services?

Wikipedia says that 3 long sets are in use by SNCF for domestic services.

Set numbers: 3203/4, 3225/26, 3227/28

They can be recognized by the SNCF logo's and the TGV colored grey nose.

Today, that isn't really viable; so do they plan to increase the speed of that particular line?
Humm...it takes 90' from Paris to Bruxelles and top speed is 300 km/h: I don't think it's possible to go faster now.

Here are some pics taken the oppening day of LGV Rhin-Rhône East.
http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/rre1.jpg
"Besançon Franche Comté TGV" new station.

http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/rre2.jpg
"Belfort-Montbelliard-Méroux-Moval" new station

http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/rre3.jpg
"Belfort-Montbelliard-Méroux-Moval"...no shuttle to the cuty of Belfort...

http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/rre4.jpg
TGV Strasbourg-Montpellier.

http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/rre5.jpg
Savoureuse's Bridge

http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/rre6.jpg
Savoureuse's Bridge

http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/rre7.jpg
Savoureuse's Bridge (detail)

http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/rre8.jpg
Savoureuse's Bridge (general view)

http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/rre9.jpg
"Belfort-Montbelliard-Méroux-Moval" at sunset

http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/rre10.jpg
"Belfort-Montbelliard-Méroux-Moval" north face.

Nice pics, thanks. :)
The Savoureuse viaduct is in concrete?
Those pillars have always left me wondering if it´s in concrete or some new kind of extra-hard plastic.

On the 9th picture we can see the Belfort-Delle line.
What about it? Is the project of reopening that line progressing?
That would be great for the rail connections to Belfort city, and also to Porrentruy and Delemont in Switzerland.

Nice pics, thanks. :)
The Savoureuse viaduct is in concrete?
Those pillars have always left me wondering if it´s in concrete or some new kind of extra-hard plastic.

I would guess they're steel.



On the 9th picture we can see the Belfort-Delle line.
What about it? Is the project of reopening that line progressing?
That would be great for the rail connections to Belfort city, and also to Porrentruy and Delemont in Switzerland.

The Swiss are still pushing for a reopening. Currently it's foreseen for 2015. Plans are being drawn up, and the building should start in 2013.
The plan is to run hourly trains Biel - Delemont - Porrentruy - Delle - Belfort TGV - Belfort.

^^ plus some extra Belfort-Delle trains at peak hours

I would guess they're steel.

I'm sure they're steel.

Anyway, I like it.
It looks smaller than it actually is.
It´s the one near Hericourt which crosses the classic Besançon-Belfort line, isn´t it? :)

del

del

Calling to all French railfans - what the hell with SNCF online reservation and e-ticketing?
When I try to order a ticket from http://www.tgv-europe.com/en/ , all i got is an error page in French - http://www.voyages-sncf.com/salle_attente/salle/index.html?_LANG=en

Calling to all French railfans - what the hell with SNCF online reservation and e-ticketing?

There is a new version...

There is a new version...
Thanks. Would you be so kind to provide a link to one?

Paris, Gare de Lyon railway terminal, renovation and extention of the Hall 2.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/GaredeLyon2.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC38985a.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC38990a.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC38993a.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC38997a.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC38999a.jpg

Inside
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC38956a.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC38965a.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC38967a.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC38969a.jpg

Hey folks. Question. Why isn't there more political will to accomplish the Torino-Lyon link sooner rather than later? Isn't that a major business route (i.e, Paris-Milan)?

Also, would it be quicker to use the new Gothard base tunnel (when it opens) and route the Milan train through Basel and then to Paris?

Hey folks. Question. Why isn't there more political will to accomplish the Torino-Lyon link sooner rather than later? Isn't that a major business route (i.e, Paris-Milan)?

Also, would it be quicker to use the new Gothard base tunnel (when it opens) and route the Milan train through Basel and then to Paris?

The traditional route for Paris - Italy is actually via the Simplon. Look at a map, you'll see that Paris - Dijon - Lausanne is more or less a straight line aimed at Milano. After that it gets a bit more complicated because of the mountains. The Simplon tunnel was build with French money for a reason...

Gotthard is a bit out of the way. Once the new tunnel is open Paris - Gotthard - Milano could be done in 7h30 too, but it would be a bit pointless to go that far out of the way. You can actually already do Paris - Basel - Simplon - Milano in 7h15.

Currently a Paris - Lausanne - Milano train could do it in 7 hours, but no such train exists. The current TGVs via Lyon - Torino do it in 7h5, but could do it in 6h20 if they took the new line from Torino to Milano. All that is needed for that is new trains. Improvements in railway lines can gradually reduce the times even further, so I think that the Gottard will never be a viable option for Paris - Milano.
The new Mont Cenis base tunnel will eventually be built. In Italy the political will to throw money at big construction companies is never in short supply, even if the political will to run international trains is.

The Lyon-Turin (also known as Fréjus, or Mont Cenis) base tunnel is as expensive as the Gotthard base tunnel (and even more considering access lines), but with a (much) lower predicted traffic (both passengers and freight).

Paris-Milano via the Fréjus would however be quicker than both the Gotthard and Simplon routes.

^^ Especially given the unwilligness of the Swiss to convert, improve or built the Chiasso-Luzern into a high-speed rail link.

^^ Especially given the unwilligness of the Swiss to convert, improve or built the Chiasso-Luzern into a high-speed rail link.

You are free to offer the Swiss money to do it for you, you know.

As long as the Swiss do it with their own money however they will spend it in a way that maximizes the return on their investment, as anyone not blinded by a crazy agenda can usually appreciate...

^^ Thank God, the French and especially the Italian have a more build-first, use-later mentality.

^^ I was sure about your views. The more a rail project costs and the less it is useful, the more excuses you can find about "money wasted on useless railways" :D

^^ No, I care more about operating losses than construction, one-off costs.

Does anybody know if they'll be running direct Paris-Munich trains when the new link to Strasbourg is completed?

Does anybody know if they'll be running direct Paris-Munich trains when the new link to Strasbourg is completed?

There already is a daily TGV Paris-Stuttgart-Munich.

Does anybody know if they'll be running direct Paris-Munich trains when the new link to Strasbourg is completed?

Pretty sure there'll be a TGV running to Munich once Stuttgart 21 and all the surrounding constructions are finished.

^^ No, I care more about operating losses than construction, one-off costs.

Construction is not a one-off cost. If you think so you have a very low grasp of economics.
If you buy a car do you care about the price of the car, or do you buy the most expensive one available, regardless of how much debt you have to sadlle yourself up with? Or do you look for something that fits your needs that you can afford?

You are a strange fellow. You claim to be in favor of minimal government intervention in the economy. Usually people who hold such an opinion are also in favor of fiscal restraint. However, you seem to be of the opinion that governments should act as if money grows on trees, and their prime function is throwing as much of it as possible at private companies to build fancy infrastructure, regardless of its utility.
That is quite a head you must have that two ideas so add odds with each other live in it together.

No country builds railways on a "build first, see if someone uses it later" basis. Except maybe for Greece. There they even built railways knowing in advance that no-one will use them. See where that got them.
In France they do carefully research the utility of a project before going ahead. Make no mistake there. And with the new PPP model you can be even more sure that before the building starts a careful assessment of future traffic will be made, otherwise it is impossible for the private investors to know if they are making a good investment. As the works are about to start on the extensions of the LGV Atlantique it is already know what trains will run on it and how often.

I assume you have no problem with a private company spending it's money in accordance with the interest of its shareholders. Why then are you so resistant to the idea of a government spending its money in accordance with the interests of the taxpayers? Do you really expect me to vote in a government that does not use _my_ taxes wisely?

I was sure about your views. The more a rail project costs and the less it is useful, the more excuses you can find about "money wasted on useless railways" :D

As a French, I can give an example which, imho, should close your money&stuff contest: the Channel Tunnel.... = a bloody cost (not to mention the (multiple) quasi-bankruptcies of the "EuroTunnel" company), BUT, all in all, (especially as seen from today) , it was quite an essential project, don't you think guys ??

But not really financially viable.. still even today ! :no:

As a French, I can give an example which, imho, should close your money&stuff contest: the Channel Tunnel.... = a bloody cost (not to mention the (multiple) quasi-bankruptcies of the "EuroTunnel" company), BUT, all in all, (especially as seen from today) , it was quite an essential project, don't you think guys ??


When it was proposed the Channel tunnel was deemed a potentially profitable enterprise, or private investors would not have invested in it.
However the tunnel has since then been handicapped by regulations. There were plans to run trains from other UK towns to Paris, and from other European towns to the UK. There was a plan for a night train. However these plans all were hampered to one extent or another by rules that forbade cabotage, and the requirement of pre boarding checks on all passengers.

I'm not objecting the Fréjus Base Tunnel usefulness, but its cost-benefits ratio, which is quite poor.

When it was proposed the Channel tunnel was deemed a potentially profitable enterprise, or private investors would not have invested in it.
However the tunnel has since then been handicapped by regulations. There were plans to run trains from other UK towns to Paris, and from other European towns to the UK. There was a plan for a night train. However these plans all were hampered to one extent or another by rules that forbade cabotage, and the requirement of pre boarding checks on all passengers.

It is only fair that cabotage in UK is forbidden if British operators can't run their own trains to places in France other than Paris and carry intra-French traffic.

It is only fair that cabotage in UK is forbidden if British operators can't run their own trains to places in France other than Paris and carry intra-French traffic.

I know. But this "unfairness" is not the only problem. A train where you have to subject yourself to a check-in procedure and pre boarding check half an hour before departure will never be able to compete with a train where this inconvenience is not inflicted upon you.

I know. But this "unfariness" is not the only problem. A train where you have to subject yourself to a check-in procedure and pre boarding check half an hour before departure will never be able to compete with a train where this inconvenience is not inflicted upon you.

Here we go again:

- UK is not part of Schegen

- Calais-Dover is THE major hotspot for illegal attempted crossings in Western Europe. Just look at the shantytowns stateless people and those who refuse to identify themselves form in the French side

- without pre-check of valid documents and, where applicable, visas, a hostage-like situation in which disgruntled would-be immigrants pull a knife or a gun and demand the train to stop and open doors or else they'd kill passengers becomes more likely than now

-due to UK laws, it is much more difficult to deport and expell would-be illegal immigrants once they set foot in UK territory and claim asylum, especially if they have children. They would have to work out some legislation to make St. Pancras an "international area" with detention facilities and a much larger security apparatus to process bogus asylum claims. E.g., St. Pacras would become like an International Airport for legislation purposes (which brings taxation matters as well).

We didn't even spoke of the need to have a passenger manifest in the Chunnel with an exact list of names and count of passengers travelling. That is for safety, to identify potential terrorists, keept track of justice evaders crossing to/from Mainland etc.

The French don't care much, though, they interview people in St. Pancras in a mere few seconds whereas the British officers stationed in Gare du Nord sometimes do more thorough interviews.

Check-in procedures are also good to control luggage on the x-ray, making the Chunnel less attractive for drug traffic!

^^ :ohno:

Vatican City & Andorra (+ Monaco who is a special case about that) are not part of Schengen either... I mean, and so ?


(no comment about your other "points".. )

- UK is not part of Schegen
- Calais-Dover is THE major hotspot for illegal attempted crossings in Western Europe. Just look at the shantytowns stateless people and those who refuse to identify themselves form in the French side
- without pre-check of valid documents and, where applicable, visas, a hostage-like situation in which disgruntled would-be immigrants pull a knife or a gun and demand the train to stop and open doors or else they'd kill passengers becomes more likely than now
-due to UK laws, it is much more difficult to deport and expell would-be illegal immigrants once they set foot in UK territory and claim asylum, especially if they have children. They would have to work out some legislation to make St. Pancras an "international area" with detention facilities and a much larger security apparatus to process bogus asylum claims.


Maybe it's time you and other get a bit less paranoid about migration. Why should capital and goods be able to move freely, but people not?

But can you explain why the problems you describe above were never a problem on continental European border crossing trains, even in times when the borders between eg. Germany and France were even more thightly policed thant the border between the UK and France is now.


We didn't even spoke of the need to have a passenger manifest in the Chunnel with an exact list of names and count of passengers travelling.

Why do you need that? Why is it not required of the other trains going through the tunnel?

But can you explain why the problems you describe above were never a problem on continental European border crossing trains, even in times when the borders between eg. Germany and France were even more thightly policed thant the border between the UK and France is now.

I guess the French stopped fussing about the German border since the Maginot line lol.

Seriously, I bet the border was loose, already, in the 1960s.

And the non-European immigration threat to Europe was minimal by then.

Why do you need that? Why is it not required of the other trains going through the tunnel?

The shuttle has controls and manifests on the vehicles entering the chunnel, which allow some matching should a fata accident happen there.

The shuttle has controls and manifests on the vehicles entering the chunnel, which allow some matching should a fata accident happen there.

But no passenger lists. And when the Gotthard opens trains running through that tunnel won't have manifests either. Apparently not everyone is that paranoid.

Jean Nouvel to renovate train hub in heart of Paris
By Bryan Pirolli | January 23, 2012

http://i.bnet.com/blogs/austerlitz-vue-sous-halle-avec-commerces.jpg

PARIS – The historic train station, Gare d’Austerlitz, is on board to be renovated by Jean Nouvel starting this year. The 600 million euro project, designed to upgrade the station and its surroundings, is projected to continue through 2020.

The Gare d’Austerlitz is one of Paris’s six main train stations. Originally built in 1840, it serves two metro lines, one Paris regional rail, and multiple national trains to the southwest of France. With 23 million passengers per year, the SNCF, France’s railway company, hopes that the new train station will not only facilitate transportation via new high speed lines, but also rejuvenate the neighborhood.

Christian Brézet, director of the project spearheaded by the Gares & Connexions, a branch of SNCF in charge of developing 3000 French stations, shared details with SmartPlanet. During the renovations, traffic will continue across the railways. Buildings dating to the 1860s, classified as historical monuments since 1997, will be preserved and integrated into the new design, conceived by architects Jean Nouvel and Jean-Marie Duthilleul. For example, 200 million euros will be dedicated to renovating the glass roof in the grand hall where hot air balloons were manufactured during the 1870 siege of Paris.

The current train station is not the easiest to navigate. Brézet said that a large part of the renovation will be opening up and easing transportation within the station itself. “The renovation of the station will integrate the development of a system that will increase travelers’ comfort and also aid in finding their way in the station,” he said. Improved access to train platforms, including new escalators and hallways, should make navigating the often confusing station easier.

Plans also include reorganize the courtyards, creating a grand staircase towards the river, easing access to the adjacent hospital and offering better roads for light traffic including taxis, bikes, and pedestrians. Construction crews will also destroy several SNCF buildings currently on the site in favor of new office buildings and green spaces.

More than just easing transportation, Nouvel and his team hope to rejuvenate the neighborhood around the train station, which is located on the bank of the Seine. The adjacent Jardin des Plantes and Natural History Museum are important landmarks but few people are drawn to the streets around the Gare d’Austerlitz. The renovation will eventually draw new stores, cafés, and businesses into the neighborhood. “One of the principal objectives of the renovations is based on the idea of creating an Austerlitz quarter, a train station quarter,” Brézet said.

While the stairway towards Avenue Pierre-Mendès France should be constructed as soon as 2013, many plans for the new station remain long-term. Gare d’Austerlitz will welcome a new high speed TGV train to Lyon by 2025, making it an even more important transport hub. Brézet said that SNCF is hoping for 50 million travelers per year by 2030, thanks in part to 15,000 more suburban trains.

Certain plans are still undefined, but Brézet said that as part of the Grand Paris urban expansion project, the Gare d’Austerlitz could be a connection point for the new line linking the airport at Orly. “Different propositions are being studied and discussed by the public to consider different ways to connect with the Massy-Orly line, creating a Parisian antenna for this new network,” he said.

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/global-observer/jean-nouvel-to-renovate-train-hub-in-heart-of-paris/3153

I guess the French stopped fussing about the German border since the Maginot line lol.


Actually in the 19th century you could cross from Germany in to France without even a passport. You also didn't need a passport to enter the UK. And a major cause of that were the railways...
Border ID controls were most common between the world wars.

del

- Calais-Dover is THE major hotspot for illegal attempted crossings in Western Europe. Just look at the shantytowns stateless people and those who refuse to identify themselves form in the French side



Maybe be should talk about it in the international border thread but...

Andorra-Spain has one road with no kind of control. It is thrue that, because mountains, it is a Spanish Village (Os de Civis) that must cross the Andorran territory to go anywhere (or crossing high mountains). As we know, Andorra is a free tax country.
There are no customs controls on the border nor police cars around it. Even there is not a sign to point when you are crossing the border. As well as main border to Spain as well as border to France are strongly controlled, this one is just... not controlled. Borders are controlled because smuggling. France and Spain know how many freight arrive to Andorra and can check how many smuggling they are having. About people... anyone who enters in the country, sometime he will leave..... (and it is very easy to have controlled a person there)

But there is a more hotspot border in Schengen territory: Ceuta border.

There are two cities in the norht of Africa which are part of European Union, Schengen treaty, use Euro, etc, etc...

One of them, Ceuta, is only 14 km away from Europe.

Should you enter there, you can get a ferry to Europe with no custom control and go anywhere


There were too many illegal little ships but the coast is so controlled that most of them are returned.
But should someone cross the border on African continent, it is impossible to check later (yeah, you can ask for passport to any citizen in the street, just that)
Maybe Canary islands have been receiving more illegal inmigration because they are only 97 km away from Southern Morocco and Western Sahara... and not so far from Mauritania.
Moroccan police works to catch illegal inmigration but... if someone wants to go from central Africa to Europe, it could be easy with a ship from Mauritania to Canary Islands and later a plane to anywhere in Europe with no passport control........


This is a google map about the Ceuta fence

http://maps.google.es/maps?q=ceuta&hl=es&ll=35.873533,-5.354054&spn=0.00118,0.002642&sll=40.396764,-3.713379&sspn=9.082693,21.643066&hnear=Ceuta,+Ciudad+de+Ceuta&t=h&z=19

and two pics

http://blog.rtve.es/.a/6a014e6089cbd5970c01538de09862970b-pi

http://www.fotosalminuto.com/banco_images/21062011_114242_248.jpg



- without pre-check of valid documents and, where applicable, visas, a hostage-like situation in which disgruntled would-be immigrants pull a knife or a gun and demand the train to stop and open doors or else they'd kill passengers becomes more likely than now


Entering with any weapon in other country can make you be arrested, not only apply in UK.

There are trains crossing all Europe... and they will find how to check you do not have weapons.


In Spain there are scanners in most stations and they are thinking how to erase them.
But... in my city I know the case of a person who was going to get a regional train (not a long distance high speed train), had to cross the scanner and they detected it was a weapon... Yeah, it was a weapon who was carried to give another person for a competition (an official shooting competition and was asked to carry another weapon for reserve).

He was arrested because he hasn't licence to carry weapons (it was the person who was going to participate in the competition the only person allowed to carry them).


And there are direct trains to Portugal, France, Switzerland and Italy... and no so strong controls.

In Spain there are scanners in most stations and they are thinking how to erase them.


These scanners are pretty much useless and a nuiseance to boot.

+1
everybody hate them. They are not at all stations and I can show how they are not effective.

^^ Scanners are important to give a clear segregation impression on the travel experience. A passenger shouldn't thinkg a train platform is like a walk in the park. It is actually a dangerous places (that should be on long-term sealed with platform screen doors anyway), where heigthened attention should be paid.

When I'm in an aiport, I'm always attentive of strange movements, unnatended packages, etc. If I ever stop one unattended package (happened just once so far), I'll immediatelly back away from the place and notify a policeman/security officer ASAP.

Why should it be any different on a train station? As I said, it is not a leisure place, it is a transportation structure.

Scanning can also prevent non-passenger from getting close to the platform. People who are not travelling have no business whatsoever getting close to a train. Nobody does that in an airport (only on air shows), why should it be different for trains?

^^ Scanners are important to give a clear segregation impression on the travel experience. A passenger shouldn't thinkg a train platform is like a walk in the park. It is actually a dangerous places (that should be on long-term sealed with platform screen doors anyway), where heigthened attention should be paid.

When I'm in an aiport, I'm always attentive of strange movements, unnatended packages, etc. If I ever stop one unattended package (happened just once so far), I'll immediatelly back away from the place and notify a policeman/security officer ASAP.

Why should it be any different on a train station? As I said, it is not a leisure place, it is a transportation structure.

Scanning can also prevent non-passenger from getting close to the platform. People who are not travelling have no business whatsoever getting close to a train. Nobody does that in an airport (only on air shows), why should it be different for trains?

That's just nonsense, in Spain only major train stations have scanners, and only for long distance and few regional trains... If you want to bring something ilegal to a train just get on a smaller station that doesn't have any kind of control.
Also, rail transport should NEVER get any close to the over exagerated "safety" measures instated on airports, one of the biggest advantages of a train is that you can get to the station few minutes before departure, also that you can be helped by family or friends to get in.

Trains HAVE to be different from air transport, and keep things that have been working for almost two centuries now.

very beautifulhttp://www.collegefun4u.com/track.php?u=4

Why should it be any different on a train station? As I said, it is not a leisure place, it is a transportation structure.


London St. Pancras would lke you to think differently on that matter...

But honestly, where do these opinions stem from? It's not as if on a platform, a train's gonna come hurtling off the tracks and take everyone out like skittles, nor is it likely that some fanatical will run in with a bomb and ruin everyone's day that way either.
(Well it is possible, but the chances? Ridiculously small, with that kind of logic, you amy as well constantly wrap everything in your house in safety wrap incase it falls off a shelf and injures you.

London St. Pancras would lke you to think differently on that matter...


There is no problem having a shoppig area within a station. Airports do have that as well. I just think platforms should r segregated with checkin/scanning facilities and platform screen doors. The latter is of utmost importance. Even if screening is not possible, putting fare gates is a first step.

^^ Scanners are important to give a clear segregation impression on the travel experience. A passenger shouldn't thinkg a train platform is like a walk in the park. It is actually a dangerous places (that should be on long-term sealed with platform screen doors anyway), where heigthened attention should be paid.

When I'm in an aiport, I'm always attentive of strange movements, unnatended packages, etc. If I ever stop one unattended package (happened just once so far), I'll immediatelly back away from the place and notify a policeman/security officer ASAP.

Why should it be any different on a train station? As I said, it is not a leisure place, it is a transportation structure.

Scanning can also prevent non-passenger from getting close to the platform. People who are not travelling have no business whatsoever getting close to a train. Nobody does that in an airport (only on air shows), why should it be different for trains?

Do you really want travel to be as disagreeable and inconvenient as possible?

Why do I have the impression that you ware basically against everything that has the potential of making life worth living?

Do you really want travel to be as disagreeable and inconvenient as possible?

Why do I have the impression that you ware basically against everything that has the potential of making life worth living?

It is just about thwarting terrorists.

It is just about thwarting terrorists.

No it is not.
The security regime imposed on airline travelers is a net cost to those travelers as it does not buy us any additional security. It has shown again and again as being ineffective at thwarting terrorists. Anything that only means that terrorists have to change tactics or targets is basically useless.

Producing a good or service that has a high cost but no value is something that goes completely counter to the free market ideology you normally defend, which makes it strange that you keep proposing it.

What really "thwarts" terrorism is old fashioned police work and intelligence, and most importantly, refusing to let them dictate how we go by our daily business. Refusing to be terrorized, in other words.

And stop being worried about terrorism. The only thing you need to know about terrorism is that it is so vanishingly rare that you are more likely to die in an accident involving your dish washer than in a terrorist attack.

It is just about thwarting terrorists.

What kind of purpose would you expect from platform doors in the context
of terrorism prevention ?

As far as I know, platform doors are used for two purposes :

- suicide prevention
- "track protection" where driverless trains are used

The first objective works reasonably well on lines that are otherwise entirely
and effectively sealed, that is, only for underground/subway/tube lines.
For classical railways lines that run mainly "in the open" and are not sealable,
there is no interest in installing platform doors since suicidal people will find
umpteen other spots along the line to do away with themselves if they so
wish.

Installations in conjunction with driverless trains is even more debatable,
I think. It's supposed to be there to prevent people from wandering or
falling on the track, because a driverless train would fail to notice the
obstacle. But with human-driven trains, it's almost impossible to stop
in time anyway...

None of those objectives are related to terrorism and I fail to understand
what platform doors could achieve in terms of terrorism prevention.

Don't be silly. Everything is about terrorists, terrorism, and stopping terrorism. Suburbanist, as you can tell, is positively terrified.

All trains should be mounted with a GAU-8/A Avenger 30mm on the nose, remotely controlled by a CIA operative in front of a PC in Utah, and all potential threats should be met with a strafing all the way along the platform. That'll show 'em.

Not even the terrorists are too stupid to work out that trains can be attacked outside the stations. Suburbanist....hmmm.

Terrorist strategist: "Hey Boss! I have an idea! Let's blow up a train station."

Terrorist leader: "We're too late. That won't work anymore. Suburbanist convinced governments to install platform screen doors on the railway station platforms. We have bombs that can destroy a train and the whole train station, but they can't penetrate the platform screen doors."

^^ Scanners are important to give a clear segregation impression on the travel experience. A passenger shouldn't thinkg a train platform is like a walk in the park. It is actually a dangerous places (that should be on long-term sealed with platform screen doors anyway), where heigthened attention should be paid.

When I'm in an aiport, I'm always attentive of strange movements, unnatended packages, etc. If I ever stop one unattended package (happened just once so far), I'll immediatelly back away from the place and notify a policeman/security officer ASAP.

Why should it be any different on a train station? As I said, it is not a leisure place, it is a transportation structure.

Scanning can also prevent non-passenger from getting close to the platform. People who are not travelling have no business whatsoever getting close to a train. Nobody does that in an airport (only on air shows), why should it be different for trains?

That's just nonsense, in Spain only major train stations have scanners, and only for long distance and few regional trains... If you want to bring something ilegal to a train just get on a smaller station that doesn't have any kind of control.
Also, rail transport should NEVER get any close to the over exagerated "safety" measures instated on airports, one of the biggest advantages of a train is that you can get to the station few minutes before departure, also that you can be helped by family or friends to get in.

Trains HAVE to be different from air transport, and keep things that have been working for almost two centuries now.



Maybe... off-topic (this thread is for French railways).

A train is not a plane, the difficult to have a train knipnapped is hard compared with a plane, a train, specially the electrical ones, can be stopped where authorities want, etc...

And last terrorist attacks made all over the world (Tokyo, Madrid, London, etc...) where made in underground or commuter trains, not on long distance trains.
Should an underground have to put a scanner?

I have crossed Spanish scanners and found no sense as far as only baggage is checked. You do not cross by a people scanner and you can hide under your coat a bazzuca or similar if you want!!!.
Apart of talking that no policemen are behind those scanners, there are stations without them and you can shuttle and cross the country with no controls.

But with or without scanner, for high speed trains, only passengers (for high speed trains) are allowed to stay in the platform and check-in is closed two minutes in advance.
New tickets with high speed lines had stamped "check-in will close two minutes before departure". And if it was printed with an old ticked format the system printed it later... and everyone knew they had to be two minutes in advance.

Reason?. Some lines offer a penalty refund of 100% if more of FIVE minutes delay (even if a more than two hours journey, which plane company offer that?). So they asked only passengers in the plattform and a check-in in advance avoiding delays arriving the train.

Scanners arrived later. No scanner needed to assure accuracy to be on-time.

And talking again about French railways.

Does anyone know anything about running of new trains Pau-Oloron and works between Oloron and Bedous?

And talking again about French railways.

Does anyone know anything about running of new trains Pau-Oloron and works between Oloron and Bedous?

RFF knows:

http://www.rff.fr/IMG/Lettre%20d'info%20OB%20BD(1).pdf

Basically reopening Oloron - Bedous is not foreseen until 2015.

error post

RFF knows:

http://www.rff.fr/IMG/Lettre%20d'info%20OB%20BD(1).pdf

Basically reopening Oloron - Bedous is not foreseen until 2015.



Thanks.


Are available any pics about works to Bedous?



PS. I've taken SNCF bus at Aspe valley several times and should anyday be a new railway there, be sure I will be there.
I live 195 km away from Bedous

Gare Saint Lazare, Paris
Renovation.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC40725a.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC40716a.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC40721a.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC40723a.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC40708a.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC40709a.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC40715a.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/Vincentthomas/Album%204/DSC40729a.jpg

What is the aim of this hall? Is it a rer-metro connexion hall like in Gare du nord?

While renovating the train station, they are building a brand new mall. This is part of the "coeur saint-lazare" plan. Here is the official website : http://www.coeurstlazare.fr/ . It's a bit old and empty, but there are some pieces information, if you can read French.

merci :)

(i'm french)

ok i didn't know, i'm new over here :)

http://www.metro-pole.net/x/IdF2_17.gifhttp://www.metro-pole.net/x/IdF2-H_17.gif Z50000 and Z6100
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