For someone who's tagline is "always looking up," your posts have a strange habit of being depressing or negative on anything in downtown.

There's only one downtown project I'm negative about and that's the arena. Downtown development is a very good thing in every case but this one. Government's spending approximately 25% of a major projects cost just to prepare the site is ridiculous especially considering most of that money went to help the local power company upgraded their equipment. This much other available space downtown they could've been used for a much lower cost. Depending on the final outcome the new deal with Cordish could also be a governmental disaster. The government and more particularly politicians need to quit making development decisions in the that to the private sector who knows a lot more about economics!

Agreed, as much as I love the local scene there is still a need for chains. And MsRadell, unless you boycott major concerts in Louisville for the next 30 years, I'll be you'll end up supporting the arena, like the rest of us, like it or not.

It's not a fantasy world, its economic fact, people move to city's for jobs and an appealing atmosphere. Considering the growing popularity of urban areas and downtowns, Louisville must invest in itself, especially in downtown if it wants to stay competative. You cannot name a single city that's on its way up without a vibrant downtown. If you're looking at it from a simple cost benefit ration, think of this. With the additional 75 million spent at that site, all Cordish will have to do is build the minimum 200,000 sq ft and we will automatically break even in terms of economic development.

The "build it at the fairgrounds to save money" mentality is what took Louisville from what it was in the 1920's to what it was in the 1980's (the "strike city" image didn't do much for job growth either, but that's a different discussion). Think about it, what if we used that mentality instead of offering UPS tax incentives to build a hub here? Or heck why spend the money on waterfront park? Pick up an urban economics book, the reasoning behind these things is obvious...

If anyone has been by Louisville and seen the Big Four railroad bridge sans approaches for decades... it's slated for conversion into a rail trail.

Jeffersonville bridge project close to decision (http://www.news-tribune.net/local/local_story_325131844.html)
News Tribune, November 20, 2008

Jeffersonville city officials are close to selecting a design for the approach to an old railroad bridge across the Ohio River that will allow pedestrians and bicyclists to use the span.

City planner Jim Urban says he expects the city will choose a design by mid-November. Eight engineering firms have submitted proposals.

Urban says it will likely be more than a year before construction begins. He estimates the project will cost about $5 million.

The approach will allow pedestrian access to the Big Four Bridge, which connects Jeffersonville to Louisville, Ky.

Jeffersonville officials hope the bridge project will spur downtown redevelopment. Plans call for a convention center, hotel, and new housing.

I'll give Louisville the same advice I'd give any city. Who is your target market? What are product are you selling them? Why would they buy it from you?

The problem with convention centers, 4th St. Live type complexes, arenas, and so on is that they basically "me too" items. There is nothing in what Louisville has done here that creates a differentiated downtown environment, or one that is particularly competitive against peer cities that also have new arenas, newer and bigger convention facilities, more hotels and restaurants, etc. And it says nothing around what Louisville is all about as a city. One Museum Plaza or IdeaFestival is worth 10 arenas IMO.

Basically, investing in those facilities and types of amenities is extremely expensive. And the ability of a community to support them is fairly linearly related to community size. Regardless of what you think about "tiers of cities", etc., the fact of the matter is that Louisville's MSA population is materially lower than the cities with which it aspires to compete. This renders it difficult to compete because every dollar Louisville spends is that much more precious.

That's not to say that you can't do some targeted things here. But they've got to be in a supporting role. I do not see how things like a downtown arena really differentiate Louisville. Certainly it could be a positive for downtown and might marginally help attract events, but it is not going to fundamentally change the competitive landscape for the city.

bolen, you say you don't want to be like Indy or Charlotte, but you endorse a downtown development strategy for Louisville that is basically a clone of Indy's. Indy builds a minor league park, Louisville builds one. Indy builds a Marriott Hotel, Louisville lures the same developers to build a clone. Indy builds a new downtown arena, Louisville wants one too. Indy tries to lure sporting events, Louisville wants them too. Indy even built a downtown park along its small riverfront before Louisville did. Indy has chains restaurants and a Borders, Louisville wants chain restaurants and a Borders.

I don't think this the right approach. Indy is 40% bigger than Louisville in MSA population, and plays larger than it is because its sphere of influence is so large in Indiana and even into eastern Illinois. It's the 25th largest TV market in the country, for example. Indy's sporting event strategy is so much better than Louisville's it isn't even funny. Even so, I've got my reservations about the Indy approach because paying for the facilities is killing that city financially. I think it is questionable whether or not Indy is even big enough to pull this off, and the investment in sports and convention facilities has starved investment in other critical areas. As you are well aware, the two cities are radically different in culture, history, and feel. So why would they pursue the same downtown strategies? Louisville can do better than this.

My biggest problem is that there seems to be little beyond these downtown developments in terms of civic development strategy. There's city of parks, which I think is awesome, but what else? The monolithic focus on downtown has long been a hallmark of Mayor Abramson. It's his greatest strength and also his greatest weakness.

Very insightful post arenn. To see what Louisville needs to focus on, I say look right outside downtown. Personally I would like to see more investment in the arts, as well as historic preservation. I personally think those are two of Louisville's strongest marketing tools, and they are honestly a huge part of what makes Louisville unique.

One thing I would REALLY like to see is further investment in education as well. Louisville doesn't compare well at all when it comes to college attainment when it comes to peer cities, and this has a huge impact. While being in Kentucky doesn't help, I can't see why the city can't strive to make its public school system among the best in the country.

It seems like Louisville likes to make statements with architecture. The Humana building did this twenty + years ago - and (if) Museum Plaza happens -- it will do the same. Maybe that could be a focus area. Louisville could copy the strategy of Columbus, IN and get some wealthy local foundation to help pay for world renowned or up and coming world architects to design new buildings in Louisville. I don't think Louisville should be criticized for "copying" other cities by building a new downtown arena. They really needed one about twenty years ago -- or more. I'd say they're a little late getting this one built. (You might argue the location -- or the price) but -- Who knows, if one would have built in the 70's, the Colonels might still be playing in the NBA. Or, if one had been built in the 90's, maybe now the Hornets would be playing in town -- or the SuperSonics(?). Education improvements definitely wouldn't hurt either.

Who knows, if one would have built in the 70's, the Colonels might still be playing in the NBA. Or, if one had been built in the 90's, maybe now the Hornets would be playing in town -- or the SuperSonics(?).
Who really wants an NBA team? All they, or any professional team for that matter, do is bleed to local communities for money! The athletes themselves know we don't live or contribute significantly to the city the team plays in and the ticket prices are so ridiculous the average Joe cannot attend games. Maybe professional sports are a good investment for big cities but I certainly don't think they are for midsize cities.

i.e. Cincinnati

We are still paying for the Paul Brown Stadium with a half-cent sales tax increase, and the projections of revenues from that has decreased significantly.

Who really wants an NBA team? All they, or any professional team for that matter, do is bleed to local communities for money! The athletes themselves know we don't live or contribute significantly to the city the team plays in and the ticket prices are so ridiculous the average Joe cannot attend games. Maybe professional sports are a good investment for big cities but I certainly don't think they are for midsize cities.

Well thats a misinformed post if Ive ever seen one. You can actually get NBA tickets for much cheaper than UofL tickets. There are a expensive seats, but thats not for the average Joes you speak of. Believe it or not there are people in town that can afford the high dollar seats, and Im sure quite a few of them would.

The only way I can see the whole 'bleeding the local communities for money' is for a new stadium/arena, but Louisville is already building a new arena so that doesnt matter. Arenas these days are built to last a lot longer that the arenas of 15-20 years ago.

And if you dont think pro athletes dont do a lot for their community, then I dont know what to say to you. Local Boys and Girls Clubs and stuff like that see their donations go thru the roof when pro franchises come to town. Charities around Louisville would love to have a pro team in town.

Its would also help attract more professionals to the city. Louisville is at a competitive disadvantage with other cities because of the lack of pro sports. Right now Louisville probably doesnt look a whole lot different than Lexington to outsiders that dont know a whole lot about the area.

Damn those Grizzlies, not doing jack shit for the city of Memphis.

http://www.nba.com/grizzlies/community/foundation_history_mission.html

The Memphis Grizzlies Charitable Foundation is committed to serving Memphis youth through education and mentoring. Since December 2001, the Foundation (and the Memphis Grizzlies Charitable Fund, which preceded the Foundation) has donated over $21 million to Memphis-area nonprofit organizations. Tens of thousands of individuals have directly benefited from these funds, resulting in new facilities, programs and outreach, including Memphis Athletic Ministries’ Memphis Grizzlies Athletic Center, Memphis City Schools’ Grizzlies Academy, Memphis Grizzlies House at St. Jude, and the Boys & Girls Clubs’ LifeLine Mentoring Program.

CVG, you've got to net it out. Indy spent $720 million on a new Colts stadium. And it is facing an unbudgeted $20 million annual cost to operate the stadium. The city built the Pacers a new arena not that long ago, but that organization is gearing up to have their lease renegotiated. Cincy signed the all time worst stadium lease in history, where they have to provide unspecified future upgrades at no cost to the team if other teams get them. (Basically, whatever other teams get, Cincy gets them too - it is a blank check).

There are arguments to be made in favor of pro sports. However, small cities will definitely pay through the nose for the privilege.

I'll give Louisville the same advice I'd give any city. Who is your target market? What are product are you selling them? Why would they buy it from you?

The problem with convention centers, 4th St. Live type complexes, arenas, and so on is that they basically "me too" items. There is nothing in what Louisville has done here that creates a differentiated downtown environment, or one that is particularly competitive against peer cities that also have new arenas, newer and bigger convention facilities, more hotels and restaurants, etc. And it says nothing around what Louisville is all about as a city. One Museum Plaza or IdeaFestival is worth 10 arenas IMO.

Basically, investing in those facilities and types of amenities is extremely expensive. And the ability of a community to support them is fairly linearly related to community size. Regardless of what you think about "tiers of cities", etc., the fact of the matter is that Louisville's MSA population is materially lower than the cities with which it aspires to compete. This renders it difficult to compete because every dollar Louisville spends is that much more precious.

That's not to say that you can't do some targeted things here. But they've got to be in a supporting role. I do not see how things like a downtown arena really differentiate Louisville. Certainly it could be a positive for downtown and might marginally help attract events, but it is not going to fundamentally change the competitive landscape for the city.

bolen, you say you don't want to be like Indy or Charlotte, but you endorse a downtown development strategy for Louisville that is basically a clone of Indy's. Indy builds a minor league park, Louisville builds one. Indy builds a Marriott Hotel, Louisville lures the same developers to build a clone. Indy builds a new downtown arena, Louisville wants one too. Indy tries to lure sporting events, Louisville wants them too. Indy even built a downtown park along its small riverfront before Louisville did. Indy has chains restaurants and a Borders, Louisville wants chain restaurants and a Borders.

I don't think this the right approach. Indy is 40% bigger than Louisville in MSA population, and plays larger than it is because its sphere of influence is so large in Indiana and even into eastern Illinois. It's the 25th largest TV market in the country, for example. Indy's sporting event strategy is so much better than Louisville's it isn't even funny. Even so, I've got my reservations about the Indy approach because paying for the facilities is killing that city financially. I think it is questionable whether or not Indy is even big enough to pull this off, and the investment in sports and convention facilities has starved investment in other critical areas. As you are well aware, the two cities are radically different in culture, history, and feel. So why would they pursue the same downtown strategies? Louisville can do better than this.

My biggest problem is that there seems to be little beyond these downtown developments in terms of civic development strategy. There's city of parks, which I think is awesome, but what else? The monolithic focus on downtown has long been a hallmark of Mayor Abramson. It's his greatest strength and also his greatest weakness.



arenn, that is a well thought out post but u are a bit off here. by no means is louisville really copying anything in indy, but its downtown is really starting to remind me of indy's in a way it is developing. in fact if center city gets built out the way its sposed to (on top of this new clarks landing across the river) www.brokensidewalk.com, and the arena is built, louisville and indy will have similar amenities in their downtowns minus the football stadium. i will have to check but i think indy only has a couple thosand more downtown hotel rooms, and bith cities have close to the same number of rooms attached to the convention center until the new hotel opens in indy.
u are all right that fourth street is as packed as ever, and I mean even on tuesday nights, the other day i heard a lady say this reminds me of "that street in vegas." I couldnt help but laugh I mean has she been to the same vegas as me?
anyways as much as louisville is copying indy, indy is copying chicago which is copying new york which is copying tokyo. well u get the idea, downtowns are important to cities at every level, so louisville is smart to be building its up.
now arenn, u seem to operate under the notion that louisville desperately tries to build its downtown to compete with larger cities at the expense of its neighborhoods. this couldnt be further from the truth. the fact is louisviles neighborhoods are so strong that they dont need much help. no where in a place like indy will you find a highlands or crescent hill, or even old louisville. when i was talking about lack of indies in downtown indy, i was talking of the cbd. sure if you want to stretch downtown further out you can include more indies, but the same can be easily said of louisville, where local indie shops operate in old louisville and the cbd of jeffersonville, less than 1 mile from the cbd core.
as stated, the biggest obstacle for louisville is education and whiote collar job growth. it is doing ok in this regard but ok is not good enough. louisville is using the notion if u builid it they will come, and its not a bad thing. the idea is build ur curb appeal then gut the inisde of the house later, the curb appeal being 4th street and downtown and the inside of the house being high paying jobs and education.
now i really didnt mean for this to be a comparison of two cities but louisville is much closer in size to indy than you are stating. it looks like louisvilles city population will be adjusted to well over 760k by the next census with its recent challenge, and indys metro area is not even 30% larger, much less than the 40% u stated. image wise, indy is on a different level (pobably soiley due to pro sports otherwise indy is viewed as a hick town just like louisville is nationally). categorically, they are both on a similar tioer, with louisville being at the lower level of that tier. anyways what has always unnerved me about this general region is the unfounded competition btwn cities. some of this has reason bc they do compete, just look at the race for the ffa convention, which i think indy will probably (deservedly) win this december. we even see this in ky even though louisville has a nearly three tmes larger metro area than lexington! I have said this before but personally id like to see louisville, indy, and cincinnati, along with columbus and dayton, create some sort of greater geographic alliance. for soem reason i see these cities linked much more than i see louisville linked to nashville, saint louis, or even lexington.

Louisville MSA is 1,233,735. Indy MSA is 1,695,037. That's a difference of 461,302 or 37.4% - not an insignificant number. It's almost as much as the entire population of the Louisville MSA outside of Jefferson County (524,471). Based on the current growth rate differential, this gap will widen by over 110,000 per decade - the equivalent of an entire Clark County, Indiana. The Indy Nielsen DMA is 1,072,090 households, Louisville's is 657,180. If you use the BEA Economic Area as the proxy for population within about a one hour driving distance, Indy's is 3,308,425 vs. Louisville at 1,524,920. Louisville is mostly surrounded by sparsely populated rural areas. Louisville may indeed be undercounted in the Census, but there's no reason to believe it is uniquely undercounted versus other similarly situated cities. We'll find out in a couple years.

Notwithstanding the figures, I think Indy is a fairly smallish city as well. I've said before that there's nothing wrong with Indy another million people wouldn't cure. It's an exaggeration of course, but illustrates a valid point. Among Midwest metros of greater than one million population, Indy is 9 out of 10 in population. Despite its top performance in population growth, it is unlikely to move up in the rankings, other than by adding counties. (There is at least one, maybe two counties that should be added in the next Census).

As for the other comparisons between the cities, they are non-factual and only grounds for a flame war. I'll just say that my own view is that Indy and Louisville are complementary cities. It's as if someone took the elements that would make a true first class city and split them between the two. If only you were able to combine the best of Louisville with the best of Indy, you'd have the ingredients for a Midwest juggernaut. They are a like a Venn diagram with very little overlap.

The biggest risk to the city of Louisville is actually growth IMO. If Louisville does grow to the size of Indy's MSA, it is likely because of massive suburban expansion. Louisville benefits enormously from not having the equivalent of a Hamilton County. That is, a large, affluent suburban county that is home not only to an increasing share of the upper classes, but also of office space and employment as well as high end retail. Carmel, Indiana has 6 million square feet of Class A office space and over 50% of current growth is there. Hamilton County will likely be pushing 300,000 in the next Census (the housing crisis will probably cause them to fall short). If Oldham County turns into something like that - watch out. One thing Louisville really needs to focus on is creating sustainable suburban environments in the parts of Jefferson County outside the Watterson, lest they suffer the same fate at Indy's older "township" suburbs. Cincinnati is suffering from the exact same effect, with almost all the growth in places like Warren County. Because Louisville isn't there yet, it has the opportunity to put in place strategies to sustain a competitive positioning when it does.

Louisville MSA is 1,233,735. Indy MSA is 1,695,037. That's a difference of 461,302 or 37.4% - not an insignificant number. It's almost as much as the entire population of the Louisville MSA outside of Jefferson County (524,471). Based on the current growth rate differential, this gap will widen by over 110,000 per decade - the equivalent of an entire Clark County, Indiana. The Indy Nielsen DMA is 1,072,090 households, Louisville's is 657,180. If you use the BEA Economic Area as the proxy for population within about a one hour driving distance, Indy's is 3,308,425 vs. Louisville at 1,524,920. Louisville is mostly surrounded by sparsely populated rural areas. Louisville may indeed be undercounted in the Census, but there's no reason to believe it is uniquely undercounted versus other similarly situated cities. We'll find out in a couple years.

Notwithstanding the figures, I think Indy is a fairly smallish city as well. I've said before that there's nothing wrong with Indy another million people wouldn't cure. It's an exaggeration of course, but illustrates a valid point. Among Midwest metros of greater than one million population, Indy is 9 out of 10 in population. Despite its top performance in population growth, it is unlikely to move up in the rankings, other than by adding counties. (There is at least one, maybe two counties that should be added in the next Census).

As for the other comparisons between the cities, they are non-factual and only grounds for a flame war. I'll just say that my own view is that Indy and Louisville are complementary cities. It's as if someone took the elements that would make a true first class city and split them between the two. If only you were able to combine the best of Louisville with the best of Indy, you'd have the ingredients for a Midwest juggernaut. They are a like a Venn diagram with very little overlap.

The biggest risk to the city of Louisville is actually growth IMO. If Louisville does grow to the size of Indy's MSA, it is likely because of massive suburban expansion. Louisville benefits enormously from not having the equivalent of a Hamilton County. That is, a large, affluent suburban county that is home not only to an increasing share of the upper classes, but also of office space and employment as well as high end retail. Carmel, Indiana has 6 million square feet of Class A office space and over 50% of current growth is there. Hamilton County will likely be pushing 300,000 in the next Census (the housing crisis will probably cause them to fall short). If Oldham County turns into something like that - watch out. One thing Louisville really needs to focus on is creating sustainable suburban environments in the parts of Jefferson County outside the Watterson, lest they suffer the same fate at Indy's older "township" suburbs. Cincinnati is suffering from the exact same effect, with almost all the growth in places like Warren County. Because Louisville isn't there yet, it has the opportunity to put in place strategies to sustain a competitive positioning when it does.


another good post and i dont think i can disagree with u. the reality is that neither louisville, nor indy, nor cincinnati are big cities and each has a lot to work on to be the complete package. but as you said, i think really combining louisville and indy and probably adding cincy and u have a much more complete, large city with many different interesting districts, jobs, education, shopping, sports, etc.

With the rising popularity of urban neighborhoods, rising gas prices, and "green" trends that are on the rise, if Louisville does hit any kind of growth spurt in the next few decades it could actually get denser as it gets larger. The days of uncontrolled sprawl may be coming to an end. While I think we will always (atleast in the forseable future) have sprawl because of the abundance of land in this country I think it will begin to slow down, closer to the rate of actual population growth. Having nearly all jobs in the metro within Jefferson county, and the larger counties in southern Indiana, will help keep Louisville from having a Hamilton County. On that note however, all it would take is for an enterprising developer to build an "edge city". But I don't see that kind of demand for office space in the outer counties for a long time.

Basically, my view is that Louisville should take adopt a strategy of quality over quantity. It's what I call the "Geneva-like jewel" strategy. Geneva, Switzerland has a city population of 187,000 and the metro area is 769,000 (per Wikipedia, so YMMV). That goes to show you can have a world class city without getting into the keeping up with the Jones' strategy which requires size uber alles. One might argue that closer to home it is the same strategy places like Charleston, SC or Savannah, GA have pursued. I think Louisville is ideally suited to something like this.

Basically, my view is that Louisville should take adopt a strategy of quality over quantity. It's what I call the "Geneva-like jewel" strategy. Geneva, Switzerland has a city population of 187,000 and the metro area is 769,000 (per Wikipedia, so YMMV). That goes to show you can have a world class city without getting into the keeping up with the Jones' strategy which requires size uber alles.
Maybe you should go talk to Mayor Jerry! He seems to think bigger is better and has for a long time. Of course by creating merger he was able to create a new job for himself.:ohno:

Well thats a misinformed post if Ive ever seen one. You can actually get NBA tickets for much cheaper than UofL tickets. There are a expensive seats, but thats not for the average Joes you speak of. Believe it or not there are people in town that can afford the high dollar seats, and Im sure quite a few of them would.
I'm not sure where you get your figures from since everything I've seen shows the average cost of an NBA (or NFL or NHL or whatever professional sport you choose) ticket is considerably higher than a ticket for the same sport in college.
The only way I can see the whole 'bleeding the local communities for money' is for a new stadium/arena, but Louisville is already building a new arena so that doesnt matter. Arenas these days are built to last a lot longer that the arenas of 15-20 years ago.

And if you dont think pro athletes dont do a lot for their community, then I dont know what to say to you. Local Boys and Girls Clubs and stuff like that see their donations go thru the roof when pro franchises come to town. Charities around Louisville would love to have a pro team in town.

Its would also help attract more professionals to the city. Louisville is at a competitive disadvantage with other cities because of the lack of pro sports. Right now Louisville probably doesnt look a whole lot different than Lexington to outsiders that dont know a whole lot about the area.
You're correct pro sports help the poor and the rich and the community. Which leaves the working middle class to pay for them! Professional sports teams and work hard to have a community image that is positive but that's the extent of it, image. They don't really care about the community they are part of except when they need something and then they are there with their hands out. Something Louisville or any other midsize city certainly doesn't need.

CVG, you've got to net it out. Indy spent $720 million on a new Colts stadium. And it is facing an unbudgeted $20 million annual cost to operate the stadium. The city built the Pacers a new arena not that long ago, but that organization is gearing up to have their lease renegotiated. Cincy signed the all time worst stadium lease in history, where they have to provide unspecified future upgrades at no cost to the team if other teams get them. (Basically, whatever other teams get, Cincy gets them too - it is a blank check).

There are arguments to be made in favor of pro sports. However, small cities will definitely pay through the nose for the privilege.

You bring up Indy in every other post. I dont give a damn about Indy.

The point I am making is that Louisville is already spending way too much money on an arena for a college team. So an NBA/NHL team in Louisville would not be bleeding the community for more money, the arena is already there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVG View Post
Well thats a misinformed post if Ive ever seen one. You can actually get NBA tickets for much cheaper than UofL tickets. There are a expensive seats, but thats not for the average Joes you speak of. Believe it or not there are people in town that can afford the high dollar seats, and Im sure quite a few of them would.
I'm not sure where you get your figures from since everything I've seen shows the average cost of an NBA (or NFL or NHL or whatever professional sport you choose) ticket is considerably higher than a ticket for the same sport in college.

I get my figures from actually looking at ticket prices on NBA teams and looking at ticket prices of UofL games.

UofL will charge you $30 a ticket give or take for good lower arena seats or bad upper arena seats.

NBA teams will charge you hundreds or in some cases thousands of dollars for good lower arena seats or $5-10 a ticket for bad upper arena seats. And everywhere in between for other tickets.

Of course the ticket average will be higher for the cost of NBA teams because of the cost of good lowers which the 'average Joe' you want to talk about is not going to be buying tickets to. The average fan can get season tickets to 41 NBA games for cheaper than season tickets to 20 UofL games.

UofL seats are very expensive, because they have a monopoly on sports in the metro. Pro sports, not talking about arenas, generally don't bring any kind of economic benefit to the community as a whole. All they do is essentially redistribute entertainment dollars. The main benefit from them is image, and in attracting people to move here. It's the same effect parks, museums, and zoos have, while not on the same scale. People choose a city to relocate to partially based on amenities. This is especially true when it comes to the young professionals.

Generally I ride the fence when it comes to pro teams, I can see both sides. But if we're already building a multi-million dollar arena, and an NBA teams has interest in moving here, why not try to pursue the idea? I'm not saying Louisville should sell its soul, but if a good deal could be reached, why not? It would make UofL tickets cheaper, which are outrages honestly. I looked into getting season tickets for football once they build the new addition to the stadium. The cheapest initial "donation" was $7500 per seat, and a steep annual cost. I don't have numbers but I looked into Colts season tickets, and they were cheaper. So while on average college tickets may be cheaper, UofL's are certainly on par.

I'd find it hard to believe that a NBA team would be excited about moving into a arena that was designed for a college team instead of them! To the best of my knowledge it's never happened any other place so it probably won't happen here.

There are very few arenas shared by college and professional teams and all of those were built for the professional team and then the college team was able to use it. I can't imagine any professional team playing in an arena covered with logos of a college team! :nuts:

In todays economy an NBA team would probably be excited to move into a new arena period. A few teams actually need new arenas now but arent getting the support from the community. Half the Big East teams share their arenas with NBA/NHL franchises, there are also a lot of NBA/NHL franchises that share arenas with each other, hell 2 NBA franchises share an arena in LA with an NHL team. Sharing an arena wont be as big of a deal as you make it out to be.

I couldn't think of any major current NBA arenas that were built originally for a University basketball team and then the NBA came along and wanted to move in also. There are a few NBA arenas that share their space with University teams: Milwaukee Bucks / Marquette Golden Eagles; Memphis Grizzlies / Memphis Tigers; and maybe the New York Knicks and St. Johns University (I'm not sure if all of St. John's home games are at MSA). There may be a few others.

The issue with the logos on the floor isn't a problem though. They just snap those wood pieces together. A change from an NBA logo to a College Logo at Center court and different names at the ends of the court would probably just take an hour or two. If Louisville is thinking about trying to get an NBA team, it would likely be 2011 at the earliest before the team could start. By that time, there should be some lessons learned from OKC to see how the fans in that town are still supporting the Thunder. If the folks there are still strongly supporting a team (that could still be playing pretty badly), it could be an indicator that Louisville could do it too. One difference though - OKC doesn't have a major University basketball program within its boundaries to compete with the NBA. (Oklahoma and Oklahoma State are near, but not right in the City.) This likely would make it more difficult to sell as many NBA tickets in Louisville because there would be a lot of competiton from the home University.

Kansas City also has a state of the art downtown arena that they would love to get an NBA team into. The next team that comes available, there's going to be a heckuva bidding war breaking out.

Kansas City also has a state of the art downtown arena that they would love to get an NBA team into. The next team that comes available, there's going to be a heckuva bidding war breaking out.
I'm glad you mentioned bidding. By bidding you mean giving money and that's exactly what any professional sporting team wants Money! They shop around to find the city gullible enough to open up their checkbook to the team. Something no city can afford especially the way today's economy is.

Teams tried to bleed cities for everything they've got and then move to the city to get a better deal. The only have loyalty while the checkbook is open.

^ You must be a miserable person in real life.

Louisville should shut down the malls, because all they want is money from people.

Louisville should shut down all restaurants (I guess they still have a few open) because they are trying to make a profit.

Churchill Downs, Six Flags, various museums, and any other activity in Louisville should just be shut down and Louisville should be put under communist control with no forms of entertainment and Msradell should be in charge.

People should only spend their money the way Msradell sees fit because he/she is a miserable person who wants to live a boring, sheltered life out in the suburbs.

^^:ohno: What a laugh, you don't listen to a thing anybody else says. I'll try to put it in words you can understand.

I'd be more than glad to have an NBA, NFL, NHL and whatever professional sports team wants to come to Louisville here. I just don't believe we should use taxpayer money to get them to come here. As mentioned by others they always end up being a money losing proposition for the city. They should be able to be supported by their fans and investors not by the general public. Just a few mentioned malls, restaurants, etc., these are not supported by taxpayers so why should professional sports teams be?

The 'bidding' comes in the form of tax incentives that every city/state gives to companies when they want relocations. Beleive it or not NBA teams do produce jobs for the city.

Also corporations pony up money, not private citizens. YUM had $100 million on the table for arena naming rights when the Hornets (or maybe the Grizzlies) were looking at Louisville, now the city cant even get $40 million for arena naming rights.

Also here is part of the Thunder deal in OKC involves:

The 15-year deal calls for the Sonics to pay the city $1.6 million annually for use of the building and reimburse $409,000 per year to replace revenue from naming rights for the arena currently paid by local Ford car dealerships.

Harrods Creek bridge closed indefinitely (http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20081126/ZONE04/81126040/1008/NEWS01)
The Courier-Journal, November 26, 2008

Metro Public Works has closed the River Road bridge over Harrods Creek after a state engineer deemed the bridge unsafe for travel, according to a press release from the mayor's office.

The bridge will be closed indefinitely as Public Works explores options for repair.

“We were concerned about the integrity of the side pillars on that bridge,” Ted Pullen, director of Public Works, said in a statement. “I visited the bridge today with the state engineer and he agreed that the railing is substantially deteriorated. Our only choice to maintain public safety is to shut down the bridge.”

The letter from state engineer Matt Bullock reads in part: “The deterioration that I observed in the field has gotten more severe since the last inspection on March 26, 2008, and creates a hazardous situation for the driving motorist. I do not believe that the railing on the bridge or the guardrail on the southwestern approach could deflect an errant vehicle.”

Jefferson County Public Schools has been notified and will alter bus routes beginning Monday. Drivers are encouraged to use Wolf Pen Branch and Lime Kiln Lane as alternate routes.

Very nice! I haven't been in Anchorage in years, but from the articles I've read, and the photos I've seen, Anchorage has been completely transformed. Thank you Schnatter!

American Trails honors Schnatters (http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20081126/NEWS01/811260430/1008/NEWS01)
Anchorage trail was gift to neighbors
By Chris Otts, Courier-Journal, November 26, 2008

John Schnatter has turned two of his favorite hobbies -- exploring nature and building things -- into a project that has earned national recognition.

American Trails, a Redding, Calif.-based nonprofit, has honored the Papa John's International founder and his wife, Annette, for a new trail in Anchorage. The group presented Schnatter's real estate company, Evergreen Real Estate LLC, with its corporate award at its biannual symposium in Little Rock, Ark., last week.

The award also recognizes the Schnatters' $3 million contribution to the planned Louisville Loop trail.

"The work that he is supporting there and has done on his land is truly phenomenal," said American Trails director Pam Gluck.

The two-mile trail runs west from the center of Anchorage to Lakeland Road. It was completed in July, though Schnatter has been adding finishing touches, like a loop at the west end.

"It's been getting a lot of attention," said Ray DeMasters, who was walking the trail yesterday, as he does almost everyday on his break from the nearby Anchorage Post Office.

Schnatter built the trail, which runs through an undeveloped 100-acre farm he owns, as a gift to his Anchorage neighbors. It is open to the public.

"We always try to do things in a high-integrity manner, and when other people notice, it's very gratifying," Schnatter said in an interview yesterday.

Schnatter declined to say how much the trail cost, but no one thinks it was cheap.

In addition to the 10-foot-wide asphalt and brick path, the trail includes two concrete-and-steel foot bridges, an in-ground amphitheater, wooden decks overlooking wetlands and Willow Lake, a wildflower garden that has not yet sprouted, a half-mile fitness trail offshoot, benches, medallion compasses on the ground and about 100 new trees.

The trail is also meant to give students at the nearby Anchorage School, including the Schnatters' 10-year-old son Beau, a natural classroom. Schnatter said he could envision students harvesting pumpkins from a garden off the trail and selling them to raise money for the school.

This summer city planners said they wanted to make the Anchorage trail part of the 100-mile Louisville Loop bike and pedestrian trail.

But Schnatter has not been receptive to the idea. It puts him "between a rock and a hard place" because Anchorage residents might not want the overall trail coming "right through the middle of Anchorage," but he wants to support the loop -- a project he has given $3 million to.

He hopes Louisville officials instead pursue Anchorage's idea of routing the loop trail beside the La Grange Road railroad tracks, he said.

Schnatter has also backed off an original goal for his trail -- to connect to E.P. "Tom" Sawyer State Park via a tunnel under Lakeland Road. He said there is no reason to spend $250,000 on the tunnel when the trail users "seem to be happy" without it.

"Sometimes, as Clint Eastwood said, a man's got to know his limitations," Schnatter said.

Harrods Creek bridge closed indefinitely (http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20081126/ZONE04/81126040/1008/NEWS01)
The Courier-Journal, November 26, 2008
Maybe now the citizens of Prospect won't be so hardheaded about allowing construction of a new bridge! It seems they are against all bridges, they don't want the East End Bridge even though it's been on the drawing boards for almost 40 years. They don't want to replace this bridge because it might create more traffic (or actually it may help traffic flow). I think we ought to forget about any bridges and the Prospect area and just build the bypass around Prospect. In about 20 years when they couldn't get any place because they would be no bridges on US-42, River Road, Wolf Penn Branch and many others they might realize that bridges are a good thing!

TARC to study commuter rail service in city
Line might link with Fort KnoxBy Sheldon S. Shafer • sshafer@courier-journal.com • December 1, 2008

The Transit Authority of River City plans to spend as much as $150,000 to hire a consultant and study the possibility of establishing commuter rail service between Louisville and points southwest of the city, including Fort Knox.

While it's unclear how much a commuter line would cost, and how popular it might be, the study "is the next logical step" in assessing alternative modes of transportation for the region, said TARC Executive Director Barry Barker.

The move comes less than a month after advocates attempted to renew interest in commuter rail service by inviting local elected and economic-development officials on a demonstration train ride.

The trip, over Paducah & Louisville Railway tracks, ran from the company's yard near 13th and Kentucky streets in Louisville, past Fort Knox and ended in Cecelia -- a 49-mile excursion. The one-way rail trip (the riders returned by bus) took about 90 minutes, longer than it would by car. But it met the goal of getting "people thinking more seriously" about commuter rail service, said David Morse, spokesman for The Coalition for the Advancement of Regional Transportation, which partnered with the Kentucky-Indiana Rail Advocates to organize the ride.

Cheaper than light rail
Barker said a commuter rail service, using existing lines, would be far cheaper than light rail, an idea that has been a topic of discussion since the 1980s but has been shelved in recent years because of its high cost.

"A back of the envelope" cost estimate for commuter service southwest out of Louisville would be $50 million to $75 million, Barker said. That would include building side or switching tracks, stations with platforms and a signal system, and buying diesel-powered commuter cars.

Light rail would require installation of an overhead electrified network, buying electrified cars and probably construction of new parallel tracks. Building a light-rail line of about 15 miles might cost $850 million, Barker said.

He stressed, however, that TARC cannot afford to build or operate a commuter rail line without some guaranteed source of new revenue, perhaps from federal aid or a tax increase.

It's doubtful, Barker said, that commuter fares would cover all costs.

TARC officials said they will try to find partners, including the city, to help pay the consultant, who would be directed to study the feasibility of the line and its capital and operating costs, as well as to identify possible funding sources.

Barker said the consultant also will be asked to examine the prospects for alternative forms of transportation, such as express bus service to the Fort Knox region.

Nashville's model
Even if the consultant recommends commuter rail, it's unclear what part Paducah & Louisville Railway is willing to play.

Spokesman Tony Reck said the company would not permit a commuter service on its tracks, unless it is indemnified and assured it would have no liability.

There also would have to be guarantees that the additional traffic would not pose any safety problems and would not interfere with the railroad's business, Reck said, noting that eight to 12 trains a day traverse some portion of its line between Louisville and Cecelia, with much of the traffic at night.

Reck, who said that "we really don't need" commuter trains, added that the railway company would not help pay for the service, which he said would be expensive.

But it has worked elsewhere.

A model for Louisville commuter service is the Nashville Music City Star, which runs 31 miles between Nashville and Lebanon, Tenn.

The line opened in 2006 and cost $42 million to construct and about $4.8 million a year to operate. The line is publicly owned and runs parallel to Interstate 40, carrying up to 1,000 people most workdays, according to the Nashville transit agency.

A one-way ticket costs $5.

The engine used in Nashville is a refurbished Amtrak model that can reach speeds of about 50 mph. It cost about $200,000 and usually pulls two cars, each of which seats about 150 passengers.

Tie-in with Fort Knox
John Owen of Kentucky-Indiana Rail Advocates said there was a push for commuter rail service between Fort Knox and Louisville as far back as the 1960s. He said he thinks a commuter line has always been feasible.

Louisville Metro Council member Tina Ward-Pugh, D-9th District, chairwoman of the council's transportation committee, called the consultant study "absolutely a good thing."

She said several council members probably would agree to provide some of the funding to hire the consultant.

"We can't plan our future around the automobile," said Ward-Pugh, who took the recent demonstration train trip along with Metro Council President Jim King, D-10th.

King noted that with Fort Knox in line to get more jobs under the national base-realignment plan, it makes increasingly good sense for Louisville to have a transportation tie-in with the post.

Hardin County Judge-Executive Harry Berry, who also took the train ride, said he doesn't believe Hardin Fiscal Court could afford to help pay for the rail service.

But Berry said that, if the stops were in the right location and if the train could go at a reasonable speed, the commuter coaches would probably attract a lot of riders.

Brad Richardson, executive director of One Knox, an economic- and community-development agency in Radcliff, said about 1,500 civilians and military personnel who work at Fort Knox live in Jefferson County.

Commuter rail might get more and more use as the personnel assigned to Fort Knox build up under base realignment, he said.

There's been a lot of discussion on here lately on what Louisville's goals should be. This letter in the C-J pretty much sums up what I would most like to see here...again.

Christmas shopping on Fourth Street
By Doris J. Batliner • Special to The Courier-Journal • December 1, 2008

Fourth Street was a magical place in the 1930s and '40s. We used to go to walk through and look every year as the Christmas season arrived. My mother, aunt and my sister and I, as well as our cousins, caught the streetcar around 6 in the evening. It was dark and, if we were lucky, there was a hint of snow in the air.


We arrived at Fifth and Market Streets and made our first stop at Ben Snyder's, whose windows were always lit and Santa and his elves were always in residence.

We pressed our noses against the windows and enjoyed the colorful display.

Next on our list were the beautiful windows of Bacon's at Fourth and Market.

Sometimes, the dolls and trees were lit and dressed for the holiday. We decided that we would like to go in to look and, in those days, the stores were open so that we could walk through and say hello to my Uncle Hugh's lady friend, Miss Bess, who was in charge of the hosiery department. She always had a candy cane for each of us, and we knew it. And we looked forward to seeing her.

Next came Sutcliffe's sporting goods store, where the displays were always unusual and always mechanized. There were large tin soldiers that played their drums and dolls that rocked in their rocking chairs or manikins that pushed baby buggies with dolls as passengers. It was always unusual and worth seeing, and we never missed it.

Bon Ton and Jefferson Dry Goods were decorated and lit, but the best was yet to come as we went down the street. The five-and-dime stores, Kresge's and McCrory's, were open and full of all kinds of goodies. We had each saved up to do our Christmas shopping, and these were the places where we shopped.

The stores were decorated with trees and lights and Santa was in each of them. Our eyes were always bigger than our budgets, and we always had to borrow from our mothers to finish getting presents for those on our list.

We could not resist the colorful Christmas stockings and lovely scarves and gloves. And we all made a stop at their candy counters, and at McCrory's we stood mesmerized as Mary Wolfe played the newest Christmas songs for which customers could buy the sheet music. I remember my mother bought "White Christmas" and "I'll Be Home for Christmas."

Then came the truly magical stores. Kaufman's, Stewart's and Selman's had mechanized displays in their windows. They varied from Santa's with the elves, moving trains full of holiday shoppers and angels and Christmas crèches that were perfect and lovely. On every corner, a Santa rang his bell as we dropped money in the pot for the Salvation Army. There were so many of them that the air was full of the sound of tinkling bells.

As we arrived at Guthrie Street, the traffic was stopped. Fourth Street was open to two-way traffic in those days. In the middle of Fourth Street was a long wooden table set up by the Jaycees for the Mile of Dimes. By the end of the season, it would be a mile long and full of dimes. We each had a dime to contribute, and we felt very grown up as we walked up to the table and handed the man our donation and watched as he placed it on the table. We felt very good knowing that we had done our part to help the battle against polio.

By the time we reached Broadway, we were tired and in awe of all we had seen. My dad picked us up in his Essex and drove us to Dawn Bakery where we bought warm donuts, which we brought back to our house to have with hot chocolate that my Aunt Maggie had prepared for us. We went to bed that night knowing that Christmastime had finally arrived.

Christmases have come and gone over the years, but those magical trips to Fourth Street stand out in my memory. No matter how sophisticated the stores' displays in the malls have become, they will never equal Christmas on Fourth Street.

DORIS J. BATLINER

Nashville's model
Nashville Music City Star, which runs 31 miles between Nashville and Lebanon, Tenn.

The line opened in 2006 and cost $42 million to construct and about $4.8 million a year to operate. The line is publicly owned and runs parallel to Interstate 40, carrying up to 1,000 people most workdays, according to the Nashville transit agency.

A one-way ticket costs $5.
According to these figures the line brings in about $10,000 per day during the workweek, this amounts to $2.5 million a year or about half of the operating costs. The rest of these costs have to be subsidized to say nothing about repayment of the original $45 million to build the line.

Sounds like a real good investment to me, I'm sure with the good economic condition of Louisville, Kentucky and the rest of the country it's something we should jump on immediately! Especially considering the line here would be longer, so the operating costs would also be higher and the initial investment is about double Nashville's so I'm sure we could make money with it.

There is no mass transit system in the world that makes money. New York, London, all these are subsidized. The point is not to make money, it's an improvement to infrastructure. Which would in turn improve the livability of a city and attract people to live here. Everything in urban economics is not as black and white as whether or not something makes a profit. Think about it, do highways make money, do parks make money? No, but they do improve things.

^Ditto. No mass transit system can generate profit anymore due to the expensive overhead and construction. With the Music City Star, they are actually using pre-existing heavy rail lines that are not well adapted for fast commuting, although there are still time savings to be had versus using Interstate 40. For the first few years, it was bleeding money but that has closed up as more use the service. It runs into downtown Nashville to a terminal where buses feed from there.

Extensions south, west, and elsewhere are planned, which would increase usage. Of course, having dedicated, high-speed lines would be much better.

--

Unique zoning gives Clarksville control over development (http://www.news-tribune.net/local/local_story_333130911.html)
Town officials hope Clark’s Landing will become an economic epicenter
By David A. Mann, News and Tribune, November 28, 2008

When the Clarksville Town Council earlier this month passed a measure that put new zoning on the old Colgate-Palmolive Co. plant, it chose a type of classification that could be found nowhere else in town.

“[The zoning was] made specifically for that area,” explained Clarksville Redevelopment Director Rick Dickman. “There were some unique situations there.”

The name, Clark’s Landing mixed-use zoning district, references the name of what town officials hope will become an economic epicenter.

The types of architecture and building materials are among variables officials now have control over. It’s in attempt to develop an area filled with retail, restaurants and condominiums. A museum, hotel and convention center also are among options.

The new zoning covers not only the former Colgate plant, but also a host of other properties to the south approaching the Ohio River.

With its adoption, the town can put limits on what can go in each parcel. For example, Dickman said, a 10-story building wouldn’t be allowed near the river, so as to make sure views aren’t blocked. However, such construction would be allowed further back on the site, near the Colgate plant.

An artist rendering of what town officials hope the site will look like was released a few weeks ago.

The project will add density to a valuable area of town, said architect Wayne Estopinal, whose company, The Estopinal Group, developed the rendering.

“It’s a new urbanist approach,” he explained. “It’s creating a much more dense kind of town,” rather than development that sprawls outward.

That dense approach is something that’s proven successful, though there are very few examples of it in Southern Indiana, Estopinal said. And the fact that it would be developed just a mile away from a metropolitan center such as downtown Louisville adds even more uniqueness to the project.

Officials have acknowledged that the creation of such a development likely would take more than a decade. The next step, according to Dickman, will be for the town to hire a planner to develop a master plan.

“We want someone who is a world-class designer of this kind of property,” he said.

Ideally, landowners from the area would sign off on the master plan, and it would become a legally binding document.

Getting all the property owners to go along with the project in a coordinated manor likely will be the biggest challenge for town officials, Estopinal added.

Carman Industries, manufacturer of materials-processing equipment, was one of the businesses rezoned last week.

“We see it as prime property,” Carman President Jim Hyslop said of his company’s land on Riverside Drive.

While he’s talked to Dickman about long-term plans for the area, he’s unaware of any immediate push to acquire Carman’s land.

Any speculation on what the company would do if an offer was made would be premature he said. Future development of the area is largely dependent on what happens with the Colgate plant.

That plant closed last year, a few years after the company announced it was relocating jobs to Tennessee and Mexico.

The property is undergoing an environmental assessment. Soil samples from the site are being analyzed and, depending on findings, a deal may be in the works for a potential buyer to purchase the old property by year’s end, Dickman said.

Details on the price and the potential buyer have not been disclosed, although it recently was listed on a real estate Web site for $9 million, down from a previous asking price believed to be about $13 million.

The site has historic considerations, as well. However, the plan being presented is favorable to some historians. The building was originally constructed in the late 19th century as a prison, then later converted to a plant.

“I think it’s a way — and perhaps the best way — to save the old prison building,” said Jane Sarles, a member of the Clarksville Historical Society.

She admits she’s not an architect, but said the buildings seem to be compatible with the old structure that’s being preserved.

“The development looks pretty nice,” she said. “[The plant] is such an important part of our history. It seems to be the kind of development we need.”

“I’m pleased that the town is taking a proactive step to redevelop the area,” said Greg Sekula, director of the Southern Regional Office of the Historic Landmarks Foundation of Indiana.

However, he said, he would like to see some additional focus on other historic sites in the area, besides Colgate. There are homes worthy of preservation along Riverside Drive and on Woerner Avenue, he said.

So you know

• The town of Clarksville has dubbed the former Colgate-Palmolive Co. plant and the surrounding property as Clark’s Landing. The goal is to develop the land, hopefully retaining the existing historic buildings, for mixed use — such as living space and retail and business. An unidentified buyer is interested in the property. The last listed asking price on a real estate Web site for the Colgate property was $9 million.

^Ditto. No mass transit system can generate profit anymore due to the expensive overhead and construction. With the Music City Star, they are actually using pre-existing heavy rail lines that are not well adapted for fast commuting, although there are still time savings to be had versus using Interstate 40. For the first few years, it was bleeding money but that has closed up as more use the service. It runs into downtown Nashville to a terminal where buses feed from there.

Extensions south, west, and elsewhere are planned, which would increase usage. Of course, having dedicated, high-speed lines would be much better.
The solution is not commuter rail nor is it more highways. The solution is a return to urban living. Urban living provides many advantages, shorter commutes, sense of community (lower crime), reduces the area covered by utilities and services (thus reducing costs) and many others. Creating subsidized sprawling commuter rail systems only encourages people to move out of urban areas as does or expressways and interstate highways.

Dense living with cars may work in a small town, but when you have a city the size of Louisville or bigger trying to live in a dense pattern without a transit system, there's too much space required to store cars everywhere (redundant storage as well: base point and destination point storage) and too many people trying to drive them in a small area. Highways and transit are both subsidy based forms of transportation each with strengths and weaknesses. Highways allow transportation for a sprawled network and trains/transit allow transportation for a dense network. While intra-city light rail might be preferable to commuter rail for general convenience, it's too expensive for Louisville currently. Commuter rail is a more cost effective way to bring trains into play in the short term. In order to live in a dense, urban pattern, transit is going to have to play some part.

Jeffersonville Town Center......no news in about a year. I thought I would look up some info. on it to see if anything had changed. Well, the site plan has changed again and it appears it is now more of a power center as opposed to a lifestyle center. Stylistically, that sucks, but it is much better than what is currently on that site as well as helping out the retail landscape for the northern Louisville suburbs. Here's to hoping that whatever happens in Fern Creek will look much better and be more of a true lifestyle center (although, after seeing rendering and images I'm not thrilled....)
http://www.7development.net/images/properties/flyers/jeffersonville.pdf

The new plans for the town center are quite interesting. I guess they have decided to put retail fronts on the west side of the development to block out the view to the Theatair X. And, since Clarksville just built a movie theater, scrapped the whole cinema idea. They do have to hurry though...if they wait much longer there won't be a need for another hotel, since they are already building 3 of them across the way.

Dense living with cars may work in a small town, but when you have a city the size of Louisville or bigger trying to live in a dense pattern without a transit system, there's too much space required to store cars everywhere (redundant storage as well: base point and destination point storage) and too many people trying to drive them in a small area. Highways and transit are both subsidy based forms of transportation each with strengths and weaknesses. Highways allow transportation for a sprawled network and trains/transit allow transportation for a dense network. While intra-city light rail might be preferable to commuter rail for general convenience, it's too expensive for Louisville currently. Commuter rail is a more cost effective way to bring trains into play in the short term. In order to live in a dense, urban pattern, transit is going to have to play some part.
Pardon me but I never said we wouldn't need mass transit, I only said that we wouldn't need commuter rail! Nor did I say we should depend on automobiles. There's a big difference between what you criticized in what I said. Commuter rail is not used for inner city transportation, it's used for intra-city transportation. In the example given running a line between Louisville and Fort Knox, the line would be considered commuter rail. Commuter rail has limited stops and basically travels between cities. You still must use other transportation to get to and from the station's in most cases. Some of the best examples of commuter rail can be found in the New York City area where people are brought in via commuter rail to Grand Central station and then dispersed via subway and bus. This is not needed in Louisville. It would be better for the Fort Knox area to develop its own infrastructure to support the population than subsidizing transportation from Louisville on a daily basis.

Louisville needs buses, trolleys and other flexible means of transportation within the city core. Also high density living makes walking and bicycling options worth considering in many cases so no major transportation vehicles of any type are required. In the very very worst case maybe the light rail line from the Airport to downtown via the fairgrounds, Churchill downs, the hospital's and downtown might be an option if the feeder system to it is developed correctly.

So will Clark Landing be developed over time by several developers or by one? I'm a little confused on that detail. Preferably, by several this would give more diversity to what is developed there. That's what I hate about City Center, I fear it may turn out bland and "suburban" My hope is that home grown businesses florish near by, which with the increase in foot traffic my very well be a possibility.

Msradell, while I don't think anyone would argue against you when it comes to building more inward/upward and less outward, I don't see connectivity of a commuter rail being a bad thing. I don't see an mass exodus of people from Jefferson County to Meade and Hardin because of this. If anything it will either allow people to live in Jefferson County and work at Ft.Knox, or allow for more higher paying job opprotunities for people already living in the area. Also with more ridership, this will give TARC more federal funds, which might make a future lightrail more possible.

And not to play devil's advocate, but the route you proposed, which is essentially identical to the one proposed a few years ago wouldn't work because in order to get ridership you have to have a line from a place of work to a residential area. Not that many people along the line you mention work downtown. What would be more viable route in my opinion would be eastward toward St.Matthews, through Pheonix Hill, Cresent Hill and the Frankfort Ave. area. A line down Baxter to Bardstown Rd would also work. These are all older dense neighborhoods which already have high ridership on Tarc.

We need to define what is commuter rail, Msradell. Typically, commuter rail is considered heavy rail -- the same rail that freight rolls on. In this case, the lines extending to LaGrange and Fort Knox (or really almost to Elizabethtown) would fall under that definition. Distances on heavy rail can vary anywhere from 10 to over 150 miles (e.g. MARC), and contain limited stops -- namely, large communities. Park and ride lots/garages, and connectors to other modes of transit are more frequent at the stations.

Light rail is lighter-gauge rail and is designed solely for commuters. It is best for shorter distances of less than 50 miles, as they cannot travel at very fast speeds and feature more localized stops. Some may have park and ride lots/garages, but they are typically smaller in size.

Transit oriented development can occur around both, and is desirable. See this post (http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,6079.msg348462.html#msg348462) for some great news on this.

As for the other comments, it's far too late to simply abandon the suburbs or ignore the outlaying communities. Regardless if gas is $4 or $1, people will still travel to and from areas that are further away. We can't simply say "screw them" because they are traveling via auto, because they account for a lot of the region's population.

Spreading the wealth around would be an acceptable solution. Invest not only in the inner city with new developments and transit -- and transit oriented development, but in the inner and first-ring-outer suburbs with redevelopment and transit.

As evidenced in Arlington, Virginia, what was a suburban outlay of Washington D.C. has become quite dense. The Metro now runs underneath a large segment of the city, and what was suburban developments are giving way to skyscrapers, mixed-use developments and density.

I'll give you two cents if you can figure out where the transit stops and the line is in this aerial of Arlington (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Arlington,+Virginia&sll=39.099233,-84.517486&sspn=0.302673,0.727844&g=Cincinnati,+OH&ie=UTF8&ll=38.885855,-77.097845&spn=0.018974,0.04549&t=k&z=15). I was last through the city in 2004, and would like to see how much of it has changed in a few scant years.

(That aerial has been updated in the past 6 months, to reflect the new developments.)

Msradell, while I don't think anyone would argue against you when it comes to building more inward/upward and less outward, I don't see connectivity of a commuter rail being a bad thing. I don't see an mass exodus of people from Jefferson County to Meade and Hardin because of this. If anything it will either allow people to live in Jefferson County and work at Ft.Knox, or allow for more higher paying job opprotunities for people already living in the area. Also with more ridership, this will give TARC more federal funds, which might make a future lightrail more possible.
I believe that creating interconnecting rail routes between cities is a waste of valuable governmental resources. It's much better for people to live closer to where they work than to provide them subsidized transportation for longer commutes. Your idea about more ridership provides more Federal funds is true but those funds would be spent subsidizing the commuter rail system and would not be available for other projects.

And not to play devil's advocate, but the route you proposed, which is essentially identical to the one proposed a few years ago wouldn't work because in order to get ridership you have to have a line from a place of work to a residential area. Not that many people along the line you mention work downtown. What would be more viable route in my opinion would be eastward toward St.Matthews, through Pheonix Hill, Cresent Hill and the Frankfort Ave. area. A line down Baxter to Bardstown Rd would also work. These are all older dense neighborhoods which already have high ridership on Tarc.
Yes that is the former proposed route and you are correct about it not going to where people live. But, you notice that I mentioned a system of buses and trolleys feeding that line. That line would be relatively cheap to build because right of way would not be an issue. Because of this it would be a good demonstration project for the initial line, once people became comfortable with the concept additional lines could be added. There are lots of possibilities for the additional lines, including Middletown, Saint Matthew's, the Highlands, Prospect, PRP, etc. the are nearly endless.

I was actually not favor of this route when it was initially proposed but how things have developed it appears it may be a good first step due to political and cost considerations. The route you discussed probably would have good ridership but right of way would be very difficult to acquire.

The new plans for the town center are quite interesting. I guess they have decided to put retail fronts on the west side of the development to block out the view to the Theatair X. And, since Clarksville just built a movie theater, scrapped the whole cinema idea. They do have to hurry though...if they wait much longer there won't be a need for another hotel, since they are already building 3 of them across the way.

I don't think it has anything to do with the adult place. That place will be gone IF JTC ever happens. The adult place will be too valuable and will sell. Additionally, IF JTC happens, I guarantee there will be a hotel there.

Heavy rail actually refers to subway or L type systems, not traditional diesel-electric rail technology.

There are a couple schools of thought on commuter rail. One is that it is a subsidy to sprawl, letting people move further out and live a basically suburban car oriented lifestyle without paying the commuting penalty. The other is that it is a subsidy to downtown, and helps bind cities and suburbs together. I probably fall into the latter category is some places, though I've strongly opposed, for example, expansion of the Chicago Metra system into the remote corners of the sprawlburbs.

I don't know why Ft. Knox would be first on anyone's list for rail transit, however. What percentage of downtown commuters live out there or vice versa?

I don't know why Ft. Knox would be first on anyone's list for rail transit, however. What percentage of downtown commuters live out there or vice versa?

I don't have any data to back this up but I'm guessing it is a very low number. I don't believe much thought has been put into this proposal. They probably picked the sight because of the existing and usable rail line and they would like to entice people living in the Ft. Knox area to downtown.

^Fort Knox is part of the national base realignment program, and because of other base closures and consolidations, Fort Knox is seeing a massive influx of new residents... to the tune of 6,000 in the next three years.The corridor from Louisville to Elizabethtown is becoming heavily populated, and this is a natural focus point for a rail line.

^^Heavy rail is rail that does not fall under the definition of light rail or rapid transit, and in terms of passenger rail, it can either mean inner-city rail or commuter rail. It can carry heavier loads of passengers. In the United States, rapid transit can fall under heavy rail -- such as what was described for the Oasis line (Indiana and Ohio) east of downtown Cincinnati to Milford.

Subways and elevated lines fall under rapid transit, which can fall under heavy rail in the United States.

I don't think it has anything to do with the adult place. That place will be gone IF JTC ever happens. The adult place will be too valuable and will sell. Additionally, IF JTC happens, I guarantee there will be a hotel there.

What I think is funny though is that somebody felt it was necessary to built a little earth mount with shrubbery on top at the edge of the parking lot of the JTC's Beef'o'bradys. I'll bet you anything they only did it protect their customers from the view.

What I think is funny though is that somebody felt it was necessary to built a little earth mount with shrubbery on top at the edge of the parking lot of the JTC's Beef'o'bradys. I'll bet you anything they only did it protect their customers from the view.


Not sure what mound you are talking about. i didn't really pay attention. However, usually, these mounds are for "surcharging the land". If the land needs some compacting and time isn't a huge factor, you dump a bunch of dirt on it and let gravity do the work.

Middletown Station.....

From time to time i will peruse Loopnet to see if I find anything.....

On the site plan for Middletown Station they are now showing a Staples next to Target with a 2010 open date.

has anyone seen the plans for the 30+ acre development adjacent to Midletown Station, on the NEC of English Station and Shelbyville?

Dense living with cars may work in a small town, but when you have a city the size of Louisville or bigger trying to live in a dense pattern without a transit system, there's too much space required to store cars everywhere (redundant storage as well: base point and destination point storage) and too many people trying to drive them in a small area. Highways and transit are both subsidy based forms of transportation each with strengths and weaknesses. Highways allow transportation for a sprawled network and trains/transit allow transportation for a dense network. While intra-city light rail might be preferable to commuter rail for general convenience, it's too expensive for Louisville currently. Commuter rail is a more cost effective way to bring trains into play in the short term. In order to live in a dense, urban pattern, transit is going to have to play some part.

I grew up in Louisville, but have lived the past 22 years in DC and some time in NYC. Here in DC The Metro System has been responsible for more development than any one thing since 1976. The bus and 103 mile rail system carries more people in one day than the number of people in the entire Louisville Metro region. STILL, we have people living in the outer burbs who vehemently campaign for no more funding for Metro and more for roads because they would rather stay stuck in traffic for hours at a time. We also have 5 separate Commuter rail lines that radiate out into the burbs each day carrying about 80,000 passengers. As gas prices have recently fallen ridership has actually gone up!

The truth is passenger mile for passenger mile transit is the cheaper alternative to build, operate and ride than building roads. Each time I come home I ponder all of the possible rail routes that could spur development. It's a great way to get to work. No one cuts you off, cuts the amount of $$ you spend maintaining and keeping your car full of gas, and lets you read, relax or just 'think' on the way to work.

We are entering a new world, density will be a good thing, your quality of life will improve. I’m so happy to be able to walk to any of three large grocery stores within 5 blocks of my home. People can still proudly own their cars, but save money while keeping them. It’s not too much of a stretch to think that Ford and or GE could tool up to design and build these systems keeping people employed

Louisville would be a perfect city to develop a strategic transit plan. There are plenty of rail corridors in all directions to use. It broke my heart to see that the T2 plan was shelved, but in my opinion, it wasn't enough. Yes it will cost alot,.. but so does building, maintaining, and rebuilding roads.. Oh well just my fare cards worth

Wouldn't Louisville be the smallest U.S. City with a rail system if one was built here? I can't think of any city's that are smaller than have one.

^^ not at all

^^ not at all
Then who is? I'm not talking about cities sizes as our mayor quotes, but rather the actual size of the city or the actual size of the metropolitan area.

Doesn't Memphis have light rail? Salt Lake City does.

Charlotte has light-rail, and Nashville has heavy/commuter-rail, although I haven't compared their CSA/MSA statistics yet.

I stand corrected, Salt Lake City is smaller than Louisville, the others mentioned however are not. The one closest in size, Memphis does not have an operating system yet when rather than beginning design work on a system.

Here are the sizes of the city's mentioned:
City CSA MSA
Salt Lake City 180,000 1,100,000
Memphis 674,000 1,280,000
Nashville 590,000 1,521,000
Charlotte 671,000 1,651,000
Louisville 557.000 1,233,000

Salt Lake City is an interesting case, it's noticeably smaller and has a significant combined light rail and medium rail system under construction. A significant part of it travels outside the MSA up to 40 miles north and 40 miles south to ski areas.

The Louisville area is the only one where the MSA crosses a natural barrier (the Ohio River) and is one of two where the MSA crosses state lines. As a point of reference the Louisville MSA goes from Scottsburg IN to E-town.

And of course, Salt Lake City hosted the winter Olympics, which undoubtedly was a big help in getting them moved up the list of communities to receive federal funding for light rail.

Doesn't density matter more than population when it comes to rail? Not that Louisville is the densest city on the list but it is comparable to the others, especially when you look at the urban areas.

The Louisville area is the only one where the MSA crosses a natural barrier (the Ohio River) and is one of two where the MSA crosses state lines. As a point of reference the Louisville MSA goes from Scottsburg IN to E-town.

Memphis... Mississippi river...?

bigger, but Philadelphia & St Louis both cross rivers/state lines

NYC crosses rivers too don't forget!

Rivers and other barriers, by creating bottlenecks, and actually produce high density corridors suitable to transit. I'm not saying that applies in Louisville, but it's a possible scenario.

The county directly to the north of SLC (and about 5 minutes from downtown) has about 300,000 people and the county directly to the south of SLC has over 450,000 people and neither are in the SLC metro area, but are part of the combined statistical area so SLC is much larger than that 1.1 million metro would indicate. Its a perfect place for commuter rail and still dense enough in the core for light rail.

Key: While there will be money taken away from the Interstate 65 bridge dualization project, it is because there are federal mandates to have a pedestrian appendage from the new interstate highway span. The cost to renovate the Big Four Bridge are half what it would cost to construct sidewalks on the new Interstate 65 span, and it will still meet the federal requirements.

Big Four Bridge project gets boost (http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20081206/NEWS02/812060497)
Tourism bureau gives $160,000
By Ben Zion Hershberg, Courier-Journal.com, December 6, 2008

A Southern Indiana organization formed to promote regional tourism yesterday gave a financial boost to the Big Four Bridge's planned pedestrian ramp, which is expected to become a major visitor attraction.

The Clark-Floyd Convention and Tourism Bureau presented Jeffersonville Mayor Tom Galligan a $160,000 check that he can use as matching funds for a $1 million state and federal grant for the ramp's design and initial construction.

"I wish we could wave a magic wand and make it all happen at once," said Jim Keith, the convention bureau's executive director.

He said he can visualize the day -- possibly in 2011 -- when the former railroad bridge has been refurbished for pedestrians and bikers, bringing downtown Jeffersonville and downtown Louisville within an easy walk of each other.

Construction of a connecting ramp, funded largely by private contributions, is under way on the Louisville side. But money for construction of a bridge deck for pedestrians, some structural repairs and the Jeffersonville ramp, now estimated to cost about $3 million, is expected to come mostly from funding for a new downtown bridge over the Ohio River, said Jim Urban, Jeffersonville's planning and development director.

Renovating the Big Four is expected to cost less than half what it would cost to provide a federally mandated pedestrian walkway on the new bridge, Urban said.

To be ready to build once funding is available, Urban said, he expects city officials next week to choose one of eight firms that have submitted designs for the ramp.

The selection must be approved by the Indiana Department of Transportation. Urban said he expects that to be done soon enough for the designers to be working on a plan next month. He thinks construction will be under way in 2010 and the bridge to be in use in 2011.

Galligan said the money from the convention bureau, together with $40,000 from the Aegon Foundation in Louisville, make up the local match needed for a $1 million transportation enhancement grant for bridge planning and construction.

Renovating the bridge "links our two communities together," he said.

"I think it really is going to be part of a big picture," City Councilman Mike Smith said. He said Jeffersonville is working on a new master plan for the neighborhood around the Big Four ramp that includes a hotel, convention center, housing, and refurbishing of sidewalks and streets.

Councilwoman Barbara Wilson said the refurbished bridge can be a catalyst for revitalizing downtown.

Keith said the money from the convention bureau is from an $860,000 bond issue that is being sold this month. The bonds will be paid with hotel-room taxes.

The bond issue also will provide $100,000 in matching funds for work on the Howard Steamboat Museum in Jeffersonville and several other tourism-related projects.

The county directly to the north of SLC (and about 5 minutes from downtown) has about 300,000 people and the county directly to the south of SLC has over 450,000 people and neither are in the SLC metro area, but are part of the combined statistical area so SLC is much larger than that 1.1 million metro would indicate. Its a perfect place for commuter rail and still dense enough in the core for light rail.

You must go to Mayor Abramson's school of counting. If you read my post I clearly stated the Louisville MSA extends from Scottsburg IN to E-town, so the counties you mentioned are included! Louisville isn't as big as people are led to believe.

You must go to Mayor Abramson's school of counting. If you read my post I clearly stated the Louisville MSA extends from Scottsburg IN to E-town, so the counties you mentioned are included! Louisville isn't as big as people are led to believe.

It seems you're the one having some reading comprehension problems - he mentioned counties north & south of SLC (Salt Lake City), thus boosting SLC's overall area size to higher than Louisville's (he said they're in SLC's CSA, not MSA). But, yeah, Louisville isn't all that big compared to others with rail - doesn't mean it wouldn't work there. Sometimes you have to look past just a total population # or density #.

There are some smaller cities out there that have at least a little light rail system such as Little Rock, AR
http://www.cat.org/rrail/streetcar.html

There are some smaller cities out there that have at least a little light rail system such as Little Rock, AR
http://www.cat.org/rrail/streetcar.html

This system is actually a trolley system which really is no better than buses since it uses the same space as vehicles. The only advantage it is it's cuter so it attracts tourists. The entire run is only 2.5 miles so it's hardly a commuter service, it's only a scenic tourist attraction.

This system is actually a trolley system which really is no better than buses since it uses the same space as vehicles. The only advantage it is it's cuter so it attracts tourists. The entire run is only 2.5 miles so it's hardly a commuter service, it's only a scenic tourist attraction.

I have to admit I've never ridden the Little Rock trolley but If you look at the main street trolley in Memphis, which is also 2.5 Miles long, you'll realize that it serves somewhat of a commuting service. Every time I've been to Memphis i've noticed that inner downtown commuters always outweigh tourist. It's just part of the whole transit system.

You must go to Mayor Abramson's school of counting. If you read my post I clearly stated the Louisville MSA extends from Scottsburg IN to E-town, so the counties you mentioned are included! Louisville isn't as big as people are led to believe.

No dumbass, you are wrong again. E-town is not in Louisvilles MSA, but is in the CSA.

SLC = Salt Lake City
MSA= Metropolitan Statistical Area (Louisville)
CSA= Combined Statistical Area (Louisville/E-town/Scottsburg)

I was talking about how much larger the CSA for SLC is when you consider 700,000+ people live in the area that arent counted in the MSA. When the census bureau got bored and redefined some things a few years ago SLC was one of the metros that lost a lot of people, but reality is that the area is still quickly approaching 2 million.

^^This happened to Lexington. Our MSA was around 650,000 when the who Micropolitan Statistical Area came into existance and Richmond, Frankfort and Mt. Sterling went from being a part of the metro to seperate micropolitans. The CSA is now approaching 660,000 but our metro is now only counted at 450,000

You must go to Mayor Abramson's school of counting. If you read my post I clearly stated the Louisville MSA extends from Scottsburg IN to E-town, so the counties you mentioned are included! Louisville isn't as big as people are led to believe.

Scottsburg and Elizabethtown are NOT included in the MSA. Hardin county never was and Scottsburg's county was taken out recently. However, bot are included in the CMSA which has right at 1,300,000.

Tax credits could facilitate more developments in New Albany (http://www.news-tribune.net/local/local_story_345111346.html)
Horseshoe Foundation likely to flip $30,000 bill to get ball rolling
By Daniel Suddeath, News and Tribune, December 10, 2008

New Albany took a step toward encouraging more private investment in the city Tuesday, and the best news is it won’t cost taxpayers a penny.

On Tuesday, the Redevelopment Commission approved a $30,000 contract with a firm to petition the federal government for a New Markets Tax Credit, or NMTC, program.

The commission stipulated in the measure the contract would have to be paid for by a grant the city is expected to receive from the Horseshoe Foundation of Floyd County.

An announcement on whether the city will receive the Horseshoe grant is anticipated today.

According to U.S. Department of Treasury, NMTC permits taxpayers to receive a credit against federal income taxes for making qualified equity investments in designated community development areas.

The credit given to an investor totals 39 percent of the cost of the investment and is provided over a seven-year period.

For the first three years, the investor receives a credit equal to 5 percent of the amount of stock or capital interest at the time of purchase. The value is 6 percent annually for the final four years of the deal.

One stipulation is that investors cannot redeem their investments before the end of the seven-year period.

Part of the equation includes that the city would have to form a community development entity if New Albany is awarded the program, pending the outcome of the application.

Carl Malysz, deputy mayor and director of community development for the city, said he worked on the idea with Develop New Albany and the Urban Enterprise Zone Association.

“This is a way to leverage private investment,” he said.

New Albany’s designated community development areas include downtown, where Malysz said the city needs to push for more commercial and retail developments.

Basically, Malysz added, the entire riverfront of New Albany is included in the community development tracts approved by the federal government.

WHAS11 News
Late tonight the national FFA organization confirmed to WHAS11 news that it is holding a news conference on Friday morning.

The release called it a major, multi-million dollar economic development and agri-business announcement.

We learned that the giant convention that Louisville lost a few years ago is coming back.
==========================================================
FFA convention could return to Louisville
By Emily Udell • eudell@courier-journal.com • December 11, 2008

Gov. Steve Beshear and Louisville Mayor Jerry Abramson will join the National FFA Organization at the Kentucky Exposition Center tomorrow for an announcement about where it will hold future conventions, indicating the event will likely return to the city.

State and local officials have been working to woo the group formerly known as the Future Farmers of America back to Louisville since the convention left in 2005 after seven years here.

FFA spokeswoman Julie Adams declined to give details about the announcement tonight, but said it would have major economic benefits for the city and state.

“This is an exciting time for FFA,” Adams said. “We are waiting with bated breath to share all the details.”

She said that FFA members wearing the Indianapolis-based organization’s signature blue corduroy jackets were likely to be in the crowd.

At the same time as the 10:30 a.m. announcement scheduled in Louisville, the organization also planned an announcement about future conventions at Conseco Fieldhouse in Indianapolis. That news conference also promised economic benefits for central Indiana, which could indicate a plan for rotating the convention between the two cities.

An economic impact study completed by the FAA last year found the conventions, which target young people interested in agribusiness careers, generate $40 million for the host city.

Chris Poynter, a spokesman for Abramson’s office, also declined to comment on the details of the announcement, but said the city has been working to bring the convention back to Louisville.

“The FFA was a huge convention for this city,” he said. “When it was here, all the restaurants filled up, all the hotels filled up, all the major museums and attractions were full.”

As many as 55,000 people, many of them high school students, attended this year’s conference in Indianapolis, which was held in October.

Louisville and Indianapolis were the finalists among 14 cities that vied to host the FFA convention starting in 2013.

The FFA began meeting in Louisville in 1999 after decades of meeting in Kansas City, Mo. But in 2002, the group decided to begin holding the convention in Indianapolis in 2006, continuing through 2012. At the time, organizers cited a shortage of hotel rooms in Louisville.

Since the group decided to change locations, Louisville has added hotel rooms and several downtown attractions, including the Muhammad Ali Center.

It's good to see this return to the city, conventions have an awesome direct effect on the economy.

Exciting news. If it ends up that the convention may rotate back and forth between Louisville and Indianapolis - I think it could be a good thing for the FFA organization. I think both cities offer great opportunities for the organization - and - by keeping both cities on their toes - trying to impress the organization - and - by not getting to keep the convention for a set number of years - being more appreciative of the convention when it is in town - the convention will likely be better off for it. After hosting the event for several years, I think Indianapolis got a little complancent. We'll see what the official announcement is tomorrow - but if its is some type of sharing of the convention for a set time period - it could be a good thing for everyone - Louisville, Indianapolis and especially the FFA.

Does anyone have any info on Humana's RFP for more office space? I was trying to dig up anykind of positive news on the two projects by Jefferson Development Group and Barrister to see if any had gained any head way. Unfortunately I couldn't find any new information. While reading the Business First article I did find some interesting information on the future prospects for development downtown from Humana. It was noted that 10 companies had responded to Humana's RFP, there was one other company, from Covington looking at the same site as Barrister for a project, they had currently just finished a project for Humana for their regional office there, and Humana was looking for this to be done by 2010 or 2011. With the economy the way it is I am sure this has fallen on Humana's priority list, but as long as it is still an objective I see Louisville getting another ~500,000 sq ft office building within the next few years. In the article Barrister was fairly clear that they weren't proposing Capital Plaza strictly on the Humana RFP, once the economy heats up again there is still hope.

Very interesting different spin in the coverage between Louisville and Indy:

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20081213/NEWS01/812130484/1008
http://louisville.bizjournals.com/louisville/stories/2008/12/08/daily50.html

http://www.ibj.com/html/detail_page_Full.asp?content=26740

Very interesting different spin in the coverage between Louisville and Indy:

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20081213/NEWS01/812130484/1008
http://louisville.bizjournals.com/louisville/stories/2008/12/08/daily50.html

http://www.ibj.com/html/detail_page_Full.asp?content=26740

indy more urban and with more restaurants than louisville? hahahahah. they must not have been outside of downtown indy.

They're probably talking more about downtown Indy, which they do have a point. Indy does have a lot more restaurants and of course they actually have retail downtown, something we are wishing for here. From what I've heard Louisville has better urban neighborhoods, but I doubt that the FFA will venture into the Highlands, Cresent Hill, etc.

But that's not really the point, both cities win big with this deal. This is a huge convention and brings millions, and Louisville and Indy will be reaping the benefits for years to come.

Sounds like they don't want the kids going anywhere "off campus".

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20081216/BUSINESS/81216042

GE drops plans for Consumer & Industrial spinoff

By Jere Downs • jdowns@courier-journal.com • December 16, 2008

General Electric reversed course today and announced its Consumer & Industrial Division headquartered at Appliance Park is no longer up for sale or a spinoff to shareholders.

"As a result, Consumer & Industrial will remain within GE reporting directly to Jeff Immelt and Jim Campbell will remain President and CEO. The challenging economic environment makes a spin or a sale now extremely difficult," the company said in a statement

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20081216/BUSINESS/81216019

'8664' plan would increase downtown traffic, state says

By Marcus Green • magreen@courier-journal.com • December 16, 2008

The alternative to the Ohio River Bridges Project known as “8664” would lead to increased traffic congestion, higher emissions and longer delays than the federal plan to build two new bridges and reconfigure Spaghetti Junction, a state study has found.

The report, obtained under Kentucky’s open records laws, was completed by consultant Wilbur Smith Associates. It concludes that plans to “eighty-six,” or remove an elevated portion of Interstate 64 downtown, and turn it into a surface-level parkway would send more traffic onto downtown streets.

The proposal also could restrict pedestrian access to the city’s Great Lawn at Waterfront Park because of a wider River Road, the consultants say. And, by scrapping plans for a new downtown bridge adjacent to the Kennedy Bridge, it would funnel more traffic on the Clark Memorial Bridge.

But proponents of the 8664 plan rebut the findings, which they say are based on scant information on their proposal.

“Put simply, they didn’t study 8664, and therefore their conclusions are invalid for a comparison to 8664,” spokesman Joe Burgan said. If the state wanted to seriously study the group’s plan, “they should have consulted 8664 and its engineers rather than reading the Web site.”

Now there is a study that shows 8664 may not be such a great idea but 8664 proponents don't believe it. Kind of sounds like how other people don't believe their studies! I'm not sure if there's really a right or wrong answer to the 8664 proposal but I do know that both groups are in favor of the east end bridge so let's quit talking and start building!

Actually, those claims do sound like the big heads are trying to come up with anything to turn people off of 8664..... less pedestrian friendly access to waterfront park?..... we're talking about billions of dollars.... thats hardly a weighty issue in the scheme of things. Let's talk long term here...

Honestly, the more I think about everything I have read, the harder it gets for me to fault the over-all advantages of turning 64 into a parkway. I think that the access could still be limited and highway-esque in many areas, but become much more a part of the street-grid downtown. I personally dont believe that this latest study sounds reputable or well-researched.

It's not, and it's just the Transportation Cabinet engaging in decades-old policies of maintaining the status-quo when it comes to non-innovation. One has to look at the most successful tear-down project completed: the West Side Highway (New York State Route 9A), which transformed a blighted elevated highway into a six- to eight-lane parkway, complete with sidewalks, bike paths, a landscaped central reservation (where pedestrians can also stop mid-block when crossing), and enhanced streetscape features. There are enough traffic lights -- that are well timed, that traffic moves smoothly at 35 MPH for about 3 or 4 signals before having to stop at one.

I'm of the belief that we should build the East End bridge and put any work downtown on hold. After observing the traffic patterns for a few years, then we can make an educated decision about what to do downtown. Regardless, you have the intersection of 3 interstates at one point. There is no easy way to make traffic move through such a situation.

Also, if you have been following the Harrod's Creek one lane bridge fight, you may not know that is linked to the Ohio River Bridges project. That is a a major route for material to get to the construction site. If it remains one lane for preservation purposes (according to RiverFields, who is also against an East End bridge), then a choke point is created and the project becomes more unreasonably expensive. The politics behind this suck.

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20081217/ZONE04/812170518/-1/ZONE02

I haven't read the link yet, but at least it is something. We haven't heard anything about the Midlands in over a year. I thought it went the way of JTC......

That's good to see that project is still on board, sucks though that one person can derail such a good project. Blue is paying for more than is required. Hopefully he can get over this hurdle and start turning some dirt. This also gives me hope for some other projects that we haven't heard about in a while, such as Iron Quarter.

In regards to 8664, my main concern is that river road in the area in front of the Galt House seems to get flooded every spring the same thing would probably happen in the Portland area since the road would be behind the flood wall, that issue would have to be dealt with before we went along with this. I'm not saying I'm for or against the idea, I would just like to see more studies done on the commuters coming from Indiana along I-64, that's one place I'm sure you won't see any 8664 bumber stickers. One thing is for sure, they need to start on the east end span.

Has anybody heard anything recently regarding the planned Embassy Suites downtown? Is it now officially dead?

Has anybody heard anything recently regarding the planned Embassy Suites downtown? Is it now officially dead?

Are you talking about the project in the old Hilliard Lyons building?

yes, the Embassy Suites website still lists that it is set to open in '09. But I seriously doubt that it is ever updated.

I remember hearing about this last year. I believe it will replace the Valvoline as well. I also remember them talking about a roof patio. Does anyone know if this is still part of the design? I Really think Louisville is lacking in roof top patios. One of the things I love about Austin.

Boombozz expanding Highlands location
Submitted by Lou on Tue, 12/23/2008 - 09:05. Dining Extras

Louisville based Tony Boombozz announces it will officially open its newest Boombozz restaurant in March of 2009 at 1448 Bardstown Road, at the corner of Eastern Parkway and Bardstown Road. The new prototype will replace the current Highlands Tony Boombozz Pizzeria, a delivery and carryout only unit which will close at the end of this year to prepare for the new location to be named Boombozz Pizza & Tap House.

A 10-year old concept with its roots in Louisville, Boombozz Pizza & Tap House will be a friendly neighborhood restaurant and bar proudly featuring mouthwatering award-winning pizza, pastas, calzones and salads. To quench your thirst it will offer a full bar complete with its selection of beers from around the world and 21 on tap. It will feature Kentucky’s first frosted bar top, an innovative design built into the bar to keep beverages cold.

Boombozz’s prototype building will feature over 4,000 square feet, over 150 seats and a free-standing separate To-Go structure new to the restaurant design.

“The prototype was strategically designed to create a comfortable, cozy favorite local hang-out,” said Tony Palombino, CEO/Founder of TBB America LLC “Guest feedback played a key

earX-tacy is pretty much a must see if you are in Louisville!

'Weird' is making a comeback, business group says (http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20081224/NEWS01/812240665/1008/NEWS01)
Most have positive outlook about sales
By Jeffrey Lee PuckettCourier-Journal.com, December 24, 2008

When ear X-tacy owner John Timmons first floated the idea of a "Keep Louisville Weird" campaign, the goal was to keep local money circulating among local businesses.

"Weird" was code for "homegrown," as opposed to the big-box franchises that were moving into town at an alarming rate.

With a recession booming, circling the wagons seems like a more viable idea than ever. Members of the Louisville Independent Business Alliance, all supporters of the "Keep Louisville Weird" model, seem to be a miniature of the national picture.

Among the businesses involved in the alliance and "Keep Louisville Weird," some are worse off, most are maintaining and a few are doing surprisingly well.

"It seems to me that most people have a positive outlook," said the alliance's director of membership, Jennifer Rubenstein. "I think that people kind of realize the value of buying locally, and local shop owners feel like now is an even important time for our organization to be active and let people know what kind of impact their dollars have.

"I think that most people, from what I've heard, are doing OK right now but everybody's a little worried about the future."

Timmons, who based "Keep Louisville Weird" on a similar campaign in Austin, Texas, has been feeling the heat. Music sales were suffering even before the recession became entrenched.

"I can do this in 25 words or less: 'Wanna buy a record store, cause business sucks?' " Timmons said, with a bit of a gallows chuckle. "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, the play was pretty good."

The Christmas shopping season has eased Timmons' concerns a bit.

"The holiday shopping season has definitely picked up for us, I think in part due to the fact that music and movies are a feel-good item," Timmons said. "Our holiday business usually hits 10 to 14 days before Christmas and it's certainly true this year. Our year overall has been down, but it's looking like the holiday season is up over last year. We'll take any good news we can get at this point."

Things are brighter elsewhere. Horton's Hardware is planning to open two new stores, and Rainbow Blossom, a health-food store, will open its fifth location next spring. After taking a sales hit following the opening of rivals Wild Oats and Whole Foods Market in 2003 and 2004, Rainbow Blossom sales have been climbing, said Summer Auerbach, vice president of operations.

"I've been told that grocery stores are not usually affected as much as other retail outlets in an economic recession because people still need to eat," she said. "If you think about it, it makes sense, because in theory, people should be eating out less and doing more grocery shopping instead. Whether or not they will continue to prioritize buying natural and organic food is another issue.

"In general, I would have to say that our sales fall into the preventative health category, something that doesn't seem to exist in the current health-care world. As insurance costs and prescription-drug prices continue to skyrocket, I would imagine that we could see an increase in people trying to take their health into their own hands."

Unlike at ear X-tacy, Rainbow Blossom's Christmas sales are down. The store's annual Green Gift Fair, held Dec. 13 and featuring 20 vendors set up inside the store, was a disappointment.

"We definitely had more people but sales were down around $300," Auerbach said.

Wild & Woolly Video owner Todd Brashear said that business has, for the most part, remained level. Sales are down but rentals are up, largely due to lower rental fees established before the recession.

"Business has slowed down the last couple of years but I don't think it has anything to do with the economy," he said. "There are just so many more alternatives for entertainment. That's been our biggest hurdle."

Brashear carries titles not readily available elsewhere, a niche marketing approach that has paid off, and charges less than most chain stores.

"People have told us that they're glad at least one thing has gotten cheaper," he said. "I'm glad I'm selling something cheap. I'd rather sell a $2 video rental than a Cadillac."

Here's a link to the Arena WebCam.http://oxblue.com/pro/open/ksfb/louisvillearena

I really like how at certain times of day on the webcam you can see the massive LG&E shadow on the arena site. And tha Boombozz news is really great. I was actualy just there the other day and thinking how that intersection could be even better with the improvement of that corner. Qdoba is great and does really well-- definately a great use of the corner location.

I was also thinking about something else, and maybe someone has an inside scoop on this, but how is it that Bardstown Road doesn't have a Chipotle?.... It is after all the "organic" alternative to Qdoba. It just seems like an establishment that will be there within a matter of time.

I really like how at certain times of day on the webcam you can see the massive LG&E shadow on the arena site. And tha Boombozz news is really great. I was actualy just there the other day and thinking how that intersection could be even better with the improvement of that corner. Qdoba is great and does really well-- definately a great use of the corner location.

I was also thinking about something else, and maybe someone has an inside scoop on this, but how is it that Bardstown Road doesn't have a Chipotle?.... It is after all the "organic" alternative to Qdoba. It just seems like an establishment that will be there within a matter of time.

They may go there, but I'd expect one in the NE area also. The problem now is that very few rest. are growing because of the economy. As far as chains go, it is one that we don't currently have that I'd expect in the next 2-3 years. Along with; Potbelly, Ted's Montana Grill, Abuelo's, & Tilted Kilt. However, there are going to be a ton of restaurants close very soon. This isn't a local thing, but nationaly, it has been known within the rest. sector that a lot of large chains are closing all or a lot of units after the new year.

weezer, you still in Pittsburgh? I know this is OT, but I was wondering what you thought of it.

^^
I love Pittsburgh!
It certainly has its downs, but over all it is a really urban city with some incredible architecture. And the hills are friggin awesome to look at! The concentration of universities in the city also has given me access to some of the best libraries I've ever been to. I seriously can't get enough of Carnegie's library!! Perhaps my favorite part is the fact that I do not have a car up there, nor am I really sure I want one up there. The bus system is great, and I'm moving into Oakland (just outside of Downtown) which has everything I could need within walking distance. I doubt I'll ever live in Pittsburgh as a working resident, but it is exactly where I want to be while I'm in school.

Thanks for the info. Glad you're liking it there.

louisville photo thread are obviously lacking so I posted one with a few random photos, in the urban showcase section..
(is the search tool still broken?)

Today I had to take a trip Downtown and since I was nearby I decided to snap a few photos of the Arena site. Being Sunday, there was no work taking place. Here's a few of them, you can find all of them in the Arena Thread (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=563434&page=5).
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/783/a19095hy6.jpg (http://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=a19095hy6.jpg)
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/2571/a19094li4.jpg (http://img384.imageshack.us/my.php?image=a19094li4.jpg)
http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/6433/a19093nf7.jpg (http://img355.imageshack.us/my.php?image=a19093nf7.jpg)
http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/7083/a19091sw5.jpg (http://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=a19091sw5.jpg)

And a little bonus, Aegon in the mist!
http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/5916/a19096nu5.jpg (http://img399.imageshack.us/my.php?image=a19096nu5.jpg)

Nice too see you posting pics again Mud. BY the way the Aegon in the mist shot is very nice!!

Louisville buys Center City tract
By Dan Klepal • dklepal@courier-journal.com • January 6, 2009

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Buzz up! Louisville Metro government now controls all of the land needed to expand the 4th Street Live entertainment complex.

The city closed last month on five acres of prime downtown real estate — the so-called water company block — paying slightly more than $12.5million. The land eventually will be leased to the Baltimore-based Cordish Cos. for an expansion of the popular entertainment district.

There is one final purchase left to make: a building on the property that the city will buy for $750,000 in June.

Louisville Economic Development Director Bruce Traughber said the design of the new entertainment district, which is to be called Center City, will begin within the next couple months.

Traughber said the land — bounded by Second, Third and Liberty streets and Muhammad Ali Boulevard — is unique in that it offers a large chunk of property that can be developed in the heart of downtown.

^^^^Another one of Mayor Jerry's fiascoes that costs Louisville taxpayers money. The deal on this project has to be one of the most stupid deals ever developed by a city government! The developer has 14 years to complete the project and only has committed to spending $750,000! Certainly sounds like a great deal me (at least for the developer and for those getting kickbacks). If Louisville if ever going to progress we need to change our politicians and political direction. :nuts:

Looks like City Center is a go.

City secures water company property for Cordish deal (http://www.courier-journal.com/section/NEWS01&template=newsfront)
By Dan Klepal, Courier-Journal, January 7, 2009

Louisville Metro government now controls all of the land needed to expand the 4th Street Live entertainment complex.

The city closed last month on 5 acres of prime downtown real estate -- the so-called water company block -- paying slightly more than $12.5 million.

The land eventually will be leased to the Baltimore-based Cordish Cos. for an expansion of the popular entertainment district.

There is one final purchase left to make: a building on the property that the city will buy for $750,000 in June.

Louisville Economic Development Director Bruce Traughber said the design of the new entertainment district, which is to be called Center City, will begin within the next couple months.

Traughber said the land -- bounded by Second, Third and Liberty streets and Muhammad Ali Boulevard -- is unique in that it offers a large chunk of property that can be developed in the heart of downtown.

"The property offers hope as a key redevelopment parcel for the community," he said. "Its location, within walking distance of 4th Street Live and other venues like the arena, should be an exceptional opportunity for us."

Louisville's new arena is under construction at Second and Main streets.

Getting Louisville Metro Council approval to buy the land was a protracted political battle, with council members withholding their permission in an attempt to force changes to the city's development agreement with Cordish.

After months of delay, Cordish agreed to a few changes -- such as doubling the minimum development they will build to 200,000 square feet -- but refused to budge on several others.

The council finally approved the land purchase in November, with all 15 Democrats voting for it and all 11 Republicans voting against.

At least TARC is allowed to resume service. Ever notice that whenever something great, in terms of bus service, happens in Louisville, Miller Transportation steps up to the plate, threatens a lawsuit or goes crying to the Feds?

Transit agency: TARC can keep U of L shuttle service (http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20090107/NEWS01/901070647)
By Sheldon S. Shafer, Courier-journal, January 7, 2009

Federal transit officials have reversed a ruling made in late October and now say that TARC can continue its circulator service in and around the University of Louisville's Belknap Campus.

The bus agency also can continue a deal with U of L in which all university faculty, staff and students can show a university ID card and ride any TARC bus free at any time.

In October the Federal Transit Administration ruled that the circulator system constituted a charter business and had to be opened up to private vendors under new federal regulations that took effect last spring.

But TARC officials recently persuaded the agency that the U of L circulator is connected to two regular TARC routes and thus, not governed by the new regulations.

The Belknap service is one of several TARC operations challenged in recent months by Louisville-based Miller Transportation, a private bus company.

TARC Executive Director Barry Barker yesterday accused that company's president, John Miller, of "trying to establish that he has divine rights."

He added that the reversal of the earlier Belknap circulator ruling "means we can go on being flexible and creative in providing service."

Miller declined comment yesterday on the federal agency's change in position.

But he'd said in October that TARC's Belknap shuttle service has long been "a burr under my saddle" and that his company would like to operate a similar campus shuttle.

U of L is paying the Transit Authority of River City $445,000 this fiscal year to provide the Belknap shuttle service and for the free rides for its personnel and students at any time.

The payment doesn't cover all of TARC's costs, Barker said.

About 5,000 U of L faculty, staff and students ride the Belknap circulator, or some other TARC bus, on a typical day, including several thousand who park at Papa John's Cardinal Stadium and ride a bus to the main Belknap campus, TARC officials said.

The shuttle is free for them; citizens without U of L ID cards can ride the shuttle for 50 cents.

TARC has had a bus-service deal with U of L since 1999.

Barker acknowledged that when the federal transit agency initially ruled in October, a computer-software glitch with the "trip planner" function on TARC's Web site made it appear that the Belknap shuttle route did not share a bus stop with any other regular TARC route.

Actually, the Belknap service shares stops with two TARC routes -- Second Street and Eastern Parkway. TARC maps showed the common bus stops and the trip planner was quickly corrected to reflect the connections, Barker said.

Brian Lester, a U of L junior, said yesterday that he is glad to see the TARC service continue without disruption.

He lives in an apartment near Hill and Fourth streets and said he usually rides a TARC bus three times a week to get to campus.

The shuttle service, he said, "is handy, especially when it's raining or really cold."

Under the new federal regulations that led to Miller's complaint, TARC must let private vendors take over any bona fide charter service, or face the loss of federal funding.

In response to other Miller challenges, the federal agency has ruled that TARC can continue to provide once a month special "trolley hops" serving businesses along Frankfort Avenue and along the Main-Market corridor.

And it recently ruled that TARC can provide its "Day on the Town" service, where buses transport people on social outings, only to groups that cater to the elderly, the disabled and the poor.

TARC may have to drop that service to groups that are not qualified as federal human-service organizations, such as church groups and housing-complex associations, Barker said.

TARC voluntarily has decided to drop its Kentucky Derby and Kentucky Oaks shuttles.

It also has stopped its regular charter business, including for corporate functions and weddings.

I would hardly say Center City is a go. Yes we have the land... now Cordish has to do their part. They just backed out of the Kansas Speedway deal b/c of the economy among other issues. For some reason I don't think we are going to end up getting what we expect on this parcel of land. I hope I'm wrong... I guess only time will tell. Good news about TARC though!

^^^^Another one of Mayor Jerry's fiascoes that costs Louisville taxpayers money. The deal on this project has to be one of the most stupid deals ever developed by a city government! The developer has 14 years to complete the project and only has committed to spending $750,000! Certainly sounds like a great deal me (at least for the developer and for those getting kickbacks). If Louisville if ever going to progress we need to change our politicians and political direction. :nuts:


14 YEARS??? Are you serious? Who makes such agreements. To me, it seems like this could be a giant fiscal black hole.

I think it's time for new leadership in Louisville. Abramson is played out. He still remains extremely charismatic (which is why I fear the next election), but it feels like he has too much power. I still think he acts in what he believes is Louisville's best interest, but the proper checks and balances are out of line.

DaVille, the things I am reading on messages boards and blogs about Abramson sound eerily similar to what was being said about Indianapolis Mayor Bart Peterson before he went down to election defeat. He too was considered invincible to the point where the Republicans really didn't run any establishment candidate. Now the triggering event for Peterson's loss was a tax hike/crisis (property tax and income tax related). Absent that, I think he'd still be in there. But I think it goes to show that anyone can be beat if the circumstances are right.

I think it's time for new leadership in Louisville. Abramson is played out. He still remains extremely charismatic (which is why I fear the next election), but it feels like he has too much power. I still think he acts in what he believes is Louisville's best interest, but the proper checks and balances are out of line.
The only person's best interest he acts in behalf of are his own and his cronies. If you look at the history of privatization of assets you'll see that not one of them has been beneficial for Louisville, they've been beneficial for the group buying the asset (most of which are closely connected to Abramson).

U of L is paying the Transit Authority of River City $445,000 this fiscal year to provide the Belknap shuttle service and for the free rides for its personnel and students at any time.

The payment doesn't cover all of TARC's costs, Barker said.
So why does UofL get preferential treatment for its students? Why shouldn't they pay what everyone else does? Sounds like a sweet deal to me like so many others in Louisville that the taxpayers subsidize. We definitely need to see a complete accounting of metro finances.

So why does UofL get preferential treatment for its students? Why shouldn't they pay what everyone else does? Sounds like a sweet deal to me like so many others in Louisville that the taxpayers subsidize. We definitely need to see a complete accounting of metro finances.

Maybe because the school is subsidizing $500k to TARC

Msradell, all transit trips operate at a loss. Fare paying passengers don't cover all their costs either.

Could this be the beginning?

Stumbo files gambling bill
By Gregory A. Hall • ghall@courier-journal.com • January 9, 2009

House speaker Greg Stumbo filed his video lottery terminal bill today to expand gambling at racetracks.

According to a statement from the Prestonsburg Democrat, who was elected speaker this week, the slot-like video terminals would be an expansion of the Kentucky lottery and would not need a constitutional amendment like full-blown casinos would.

Maybe because the school is subsidizing $500k to TARCI'd agree if that covered the additional costs for the service but the article stated that it didn't.* Since the majority of UofL is tax exempt that means the remainder of the service is subsidized by metro taxpayers.Msradell, all transit trips operate at a loss. Fare paying passengers don't cover all their costs either.I realize this and that's another concern of mine (the amount of the subsidy) especially with the present economic conditions.* Also as I noted above UofL pays minimal property taxes so other than the "donation" to TARC they're getting a free ride so to speak.* I'm not mistaken the total UofL population is about 25,000 people if you count undergraduate and graduate students as well as professors and staff.* Based on this UofL is paying about $20.00 per person for this service.* I'm quite sure almost anyone would think this is a great deal and like to be eligible for it.

It's been a while since I've been on here, still not much news :(

TARC counts the students who use this service from the stadium to campus in their ridership counts, which is thousands of rides a day. This means more federal money for the system, also with free rides they also get increased membership that possibly wouldn't be there without the deal. TARC probably comes out pretty good with the deal, which isn't a bad thing. The more money for public transportation the better.

As much as I want an established retail scene downtown, the deal with Cordish does leave a bad taste in my mouth. I'm hopin we're wrong about this, but the best thing that might come from this deal is if Cordish backs out and gives up their rights to the land. I'd personally rather see the land offered to the highest bidders, like the market is suppose to work. I have no problem with the city buying this land and offering incentives to build, but this deal seems to sweet for Cordish. While I believe they can pull off something great at this site, I do not like the deal at all.

Could this be the beginning?

Stumbo files gambling bill
By Gregory A. Hall • ghall@courier-journal.com • January 9, 2009

House speaker Greg Stumbo filed his video lottery terminal bill today to expand gambling at racetracks.

According to a statement from the Prestonsburg Democrat, who was elected speaker this week, the slot-like video terminals would be an expansion of the Kentucky lottery and would not need a constitutional amendment like full-blown casinos would.
Hopefully this will happen quickly so Kentucky money quits going to Indiana casinos! All we accomplish by not legalizing gambling in Kentucky is to help other states where it's legal and hurt our horse tracks. I certainly don't see anything negative about legalizing this and full-blown casinos in Kentucky. :cheers:

Hopefully this will happen quickly so Kentucky money quits going to Indiana casinos! All we accomplish by not legalizing gambling in Kentucky is to help other states where it's legal and hurt our horse tracks. I certainly don't see anything negative about legalizing this and full-blown casinos in Kentucky. :cheers:

Me neither. I work for the schools and we could use casino money, whether it is from horse tracks or otherwise.

but gambling is the devil's nectar....

but gambling is the devil's nectar....
:lol::lol: If that's the worst problem we've got things are pretty good. Gambling is all around us so we might just as well except it and reap the benefits for Kentucky instead of letting it go out of state.

:lol::lol: If that's the worst problem we've got things are pretty good. Gambling is all around us so we might just as well except it and reap the benefits for Kentucky instead of letting it go out of state.

I am being extremely facetious. I agree that Gambling is here to stay and the State of Kentucky should be benefiting from its citizen's vices. Not just Indiana and West Virginia.

I don't really have a problem with casinos (as long as they don't put one downtown) or gambling in general. I just hate how some polticians think it will solve all problems we have in this state. Most the gambling revenue will be money from residents, so essentially all gambling would do is keep the revenues in the state. The sad thing about it is if you go to these casinos a lot of people there probably shouldn't be there, but as long as bordering states have them, I see no reason for Kentucky not to have them.

i just received my copy of the book..Louisville 2035. for 10 bucks, you need to own it..great read

It's good to see this project is still alive and well, the projected jobs from this would be roughly 8,000 a lot of them would be very high paying, education based. The economic implications from this project alone would be huge, imagine the spin offs possible from such an investment. THIS is the kind of investments that the state needs to get on board with....

Nucleus invites new developers for Haymarket property
By Patrick Howington

Plans to develop the old Haymarket property as a life-sciences research park are revving up again following a Baltimore developer’s withdrawal from the project last August.

Nucleus, the life-sciences initiative of the University of Louisville Foundation, recently invited developers and architectural firms to express interest in the project.

The property, in the downtown block bounded Market, Preston, Jefferson and Floyd streets — now largely a parking lot — is intended to be a campus to support growing life-sciences companies.

Plans for the project’s first phase call for three buildings along the south side of Market Street, including a “signature office building” at the corner of Preston that would include laboratory space.

Another building would be a roughly 650-space parking garage at the corner of Floyd Street that Nucleus would develop with Louisville Metro government.

The third building would contain both laboratories and offices and be located just east of the garage, between it and the “signature” building, according to a notice Nucleus published Dec. 31.

Firms have until Feb. 9 to submit their qualifications to be a partner in the project.

Tenants of the research park would include fledgling companies started by U of L researchers and more mature companies that would be recruited to the site.

In addition to the Haymarket block, the park would include half a block just to the west, running along Jefferson between Floyd and Brook streets. That tract included MedCenter 3, a life-sciences incubator that Nucleus oversees.

The signature office building at Market and Preston will serve as a “gateway” to U of L’s Health Sciences campus to the south, the request for qualifications said. The campus and the Haymarket site are separated by Interstate 65.

Because of its strategic location, it will be important for it to “set and reinforce the Class A tone and character” of the entire Haymarket development, Nucleus said in its notice.

Plans announced last March called for the building to have modern architecture to give it a high-tech feel, about 210,000 square feet, and a tower of up to 10 stories. However, plans could change under a new development team.

21C Named one of the best....

21c Museum Hotel named among top hotels in U.S.
By Larry Muhammad • lmuhammad@courier-journal.com • January 18, 2009

Louisville's 91-room boutique hotel, 21c Museum Hotel, known for Southern-style luxuries as a backdrop for contemporary art, has been named one of "The World's Best Places to Stay" on the Gold List of Conde Nast Traveler, a leading travel magazine.

Including more than 700 hotels worldwide, the Gold List distinction is based on quality of rooms, service, location, design and activities. 21c, which last year was ranked the 16th-best hotel in a poll of the magazine's readers, scored more than 90 points on the Gold List test.

The hotel boasts a 5,000-square-foot exhibition space, plus room amenities including mint julep cups, iPods with custom music and 42-inch flat-screen HDTV television sets.

A new restaurant downtown on Market...

(from Brokensidewalk)

Fresh off the opening of the upscale Z’s Fusion restaurant on Market and Fourth Streets, we bring news of another eatery planning to open soon. This time, its Chop Shop Salads on the corner of Market and Fifth Streets. The restaurant is so new, its web site hasn’t even gone live yet. As far as we can tell, the place makes, well, salads. The Chop Shop will join a slew of other lunch spots that have opened recently downtown. The restaurant takes the place of Roy Steele’s Shoe Repair, which moved around the corner last year to a new shop on Fifth Street. A new store front has been installed and the interior has been gutted. They covered up the windows pretty well, so it’s difficult to see inside, but there’s all sorts of construction going on with a few new walls going up.

Man, 21C has really turned into a hit over its few years.

At least mass transit is being talked about with some kind of seriousness now, hopefully Louisville can get this done...

TARC approves new long range plan for light rail system.
FOX 41

Light rail reconsidered for TARC




TARC spent about $8 million and worked six years planning a light rail line from downtown to the Gene Snyder. Then, leaders decided there was not enough money to build two new bridges and a light rail line. But light rail is making a comeback by popular demand.

TARC began work on a new long range plan by talking to riders, nonriders, and leaders about it's present service.

"The fact I don't have to spend money on gas. Don't put miles on my car," said Leigh Ann Gearhiser, TARC rider.

"There was high appreciation for what TARC does for the community. Very high approval rating for TARC in general," said Nina Walfoort, TARC.

Many who were surveyed like how TARC helps seniors, the disabled and the poor get around. But what will it take to get others on board?

"People have an appetite for something a little faster, more comfortable. The light rail is still way up there," said Walfoort.

"I think it's a good idea. I would ride it," said Jackie McMurtry, TARC rider.

TARC plans to study a cheaper alternative than light rail: a commuter train to Ft. Knox on an existing rail line. But it's new long range plan puts light rail back in the "someday" category, despite its $800 million cost.

"Building a highway between two places receives greater federal funds than building a transit line between two places. That needs to change," said David Morse, CART.

Mass Transit advocate David Morse believes more federal support for transit projects is coming and will help. The problem is, Louisville will have to increase its occupational tax or raise other new revenue to get it.

"The federal government is here to help but they're not here to take the whole load. Local communities are still going to have to step up," said Morse.

David Morse's group, CART, had hoped to get an occupational tax increase on the November ballot. But the idea of raising a tax during bad economic times never got off the ground.

CART is now working to convince the community local mass transit will never improve unless we are will to agree to help pay for improvements.

Now is certainly not the time to even talk about increasing taxes no matter the purpose. Louisville is also not the right city for light rail because we don't have population or jobs concentrated in such a way that it's practical. Yes we need to promote and expand transportation options but light rail would be a waste of valuable resources for Louisville.

Now is certainly not the time to even talk about increasing taxes no matter the purpose. Louisville is also not the right city for light rail because we don't have population or jobs concentrated in such a way that it's practical. Yes we need to promote and expand transportation options but light rail would be a waste of valuable resources for Louisville.

+1

I'm beginning to think you all are either the same person or lovers. For one, this is a long range plan, second they are talking about a .02% raise in occupational taxes, if this meant getting a mass transit system worth using, I would be all in. Light rail could work if placed in the right areas, like as I said before the more compact areas, Frankfort ave, the highlands, Germantown, Old Louisville to U of L (students would eat this stuff up),the west end, even to the older part of St.Matthews. You guys say that Louisville is on its way down, it will be the next Detroit (I went to the auto show yesterday, Louisville is far from Detroit), but when it comes to smart investments you say it can't be done. Doesn't make sense to me.

For one, this is a long range plan, second they are talking about a .02% raise in occupational taxes, if this meant getting a mass transit system worth using, I would be all in.
I'm not sure where you got that number but it wouldn't generate enough money to much of anything. If man, woman and child in the county made $25,000, it would bring in $5 per person or about $5,000,000 annually which wouldn't be enough to start talking.
Light rail could work if placed in the right areas, like as I said before the more compact areas, Frankfort ave, the highlands, Germantown, Old Louisville to U of L (students would eat this stuff up),the west end, even to the older part of St.Matthews.
There are two problems with this, the first place those areas don't have any place to build light rail without destroying a lot of houses and the character of the neighborhoods. Secondly, those are all places where people live, not work so where would they commute to? Downtown? The logistics just don't work.
You guys say that Louisville is on its way down, it will be the next Detroit (I went to the auto show yesterday, Louisville is far from Detroit), but when it comes to smart investments you say it can't be done. Doesn't make sense to me.
I agree, Louisville is nowhere near where Detroit is and hopefully won't get there but it's certainly not progressing like many cities are. It also doesn't have the vibrancy downtown like many cities do. This won't happen until we have shopping in a large group of residents in the downtown area. Neither of which is really happening. A downtown cannot flourish by being a destination alone.

I'm beginning to think you all are either the same person or lovers. For one, this is a long range plan, second they are talking about a .02% raise in occupational taxes, if this meant getting a mass transit system worth using, I would be all in. Light rail could work if placed in the right areas, like as I said before the more compact areas, Frankfort ave, the highlands, Germantown, Old Louisville to U of L (students would eat this stuff up),the west end, even to the older part of St.Matthews. You guys say that Louisville is on its way down, it will be the next Detroit (I went to the auto show yesterday, Louisville is far from Detroit), but when it comes to smart investments you say it can't be done. Doesn't make sense to me.

is there a way to check ip addresses on here? id be curious about both msradell and redeveloper.

I'm not sure where you got that number but it wouldn't generate enough money to much of anything. If man, woman and child in the county made $25,000, it would bring in $5 per person or about $5,000,000 annually which wouldn't be enough to start talking..

I got those numbers from the TARC website, and the number is more like $40 million

There are two problems with this, the first place those areas don't have any place to build light rail without destroying a lot of houses and the character of the neighborhoods. Secondly, those are all places where people live, not work so where would they commute to? Downtown? The logistics just don't work.

The line would of course go downtown, which is the largest concentration of employment in the city. And there are existing lines (and even stations) all within those areas. It could be done with a minimum impact, possibly use existing streets.

I'm beginning to think you all are either the same person or lovers. For one, this is a long range plan, second they are talking about a .02% raise in occupational taxes, if this meant getting a mass transit system worth using, I would be all in. Light rail could work if placed in the right areas, like as I said before the more compact areas, Frankfort ave, the highlands, Germantown, Old Louisville to U of L (students would eat this stuff up),the west end, even to the older part of St.Matthews. You guys say that Louisville is on its way down, it will be the next Detroit (I went to the auto show yesterday, Louisville is far from Detroit), but when it comes to smart investments you say it can't be done. Doesn't make sense to me.

I posted the +1 - just to restrain my comments but you'll can't even bridle your response to that.


CARD04 - you say it doesn't make sense - specifically what doesn't make sense to you? I mean aside from saying I'm ok w/ you taxing the next guy...what part of this doesn't make sense?

is there a way to check ip addresses on here? id be curious about both msradell and redeveloper.
Go right ahead in check anything you want you'll find that we don't even know each other. We just both have realistic views about what needs to be done to improve Louisville.

I posted the +1 - just to restrain my comments but you'll can't even bridle your response to that.


CARD04 - you say it doesn't make sense - specifically what doesn't make sense to you? I mean aside from saying I'm ok w/ you taxing the next guy...what part of this doesn't make sense?

The fact that you say Louisville is in a "downward spiral" but then go against something that would greatly improve infrastructure, something that would help draw people and business to this city. Charlotte (a city you compared Louisville to), just completed a light rail system, which from what I understand is working out very well. While quite a bit larger Charlotte on average is no denser than Louisville, density is the key ingredient when looking into mass transit. Louisville doesn't have an ocean or mountains that naturally attract people, so it has to invest in parks and other public infrastructure in order to stay competative.

I got those numbers from the TARC website, and the number is more like $40 million
I don't know where the $40 million number comes from. If every person in Louisville makes $25,000 per year end the occupation tax rises 0.02% and you multiply $25,000 x 0.0002 you get $5 and you multiply that by the approximately one million people and you get five million dollars. The math is pretty simple. The $25,000 number per person may be a little off but if it's any thing it's probably too high since the one million number includes children, welfare recipients, unemployed, etc.
The line would of course go downtown, which is the largest concentration of employment in the city. And there are existing lines (and even stations) all within those areas. It could be done with a minimum impact, possibly use existing streets.
Using streets makes perfect sense considering they are so under used, I'm sure shutting a couple down wouldn't be a problem. The rail lines you talk about are either abandoned or used for freight trains. Freight trains in light rail do not mix. I also think you'd be surprised to see what percentage of the jobs are downtown and what percentage of those workers live in the areas you mention, it's much lower than you think.

The fact that you say Louisville is in a "downward spiral" but then go against something that would greatly improve infrastructure, something that would help draw people and business to this city. Charlotte (a city you compared Louisville to), just completed a light rail system, which from what I understand is working out very well. While quite a bit larger Charlotte on average is no denser than Louisville, density is the key ingredient when looking into mass transit. Louisville doesn't have an ocean or mountains that naturally attract people, so it has to invest in parks and other public infrastructure in order to stay competative.

Louisville needn't oceans, moutains or parks to be competitive. It needs a welcoming business environment. It needs 3 things to be specific:
A pro business enviornment
A burocracy that isnt cumbersome
And "all" of the other existing attributes that make it unique and special.

All else will follow; endowments, funding, public projects, arts, charities, infrastructure et al.

Louisville does not role out the red carpet for anything other than manufacturing and logistics oriented work. It is a one tier environment. It needs an administration that focus's on the higher echelon companies in order to create the payrolls that generate massive tax revenues. Many of our competing regional cities understand that - and so you see what they reap. You have to understand; to do that here contradicts the Mayor's agenda and ideology.
Facts are facts and it is really fruitless to debate how we've gotten where we are. It is time we begin to climb out of the hole - are concede to defeat.

The fact that you say Louisville is in a "downward spiral" but then go against something that would greatly improve infrastructure, something that would help draw people and business to this city. Charlotte (a city you compared Louisville to), just completed a light rail system, which from what I understand is working out very well. While quite a bit larger Charlotte on average is no denser than Louisville, density is the key ingredient when looking into mass transit. Louisville doesn't have an ocean or mountains that naturally attract people, so it has to invest in parks and other public infrastructure in order to stay competative.

specifically regarding Chalotte - i flew to Charlotte several times last summer.

You have 2 power house banking institutions - anchoring the city - let alone the hundreds of subsidiary support businesses....it really was in summer of 08 off the map. Median income - I don't recall but in the stratosphere. I saw the rail great but the lines are basically short -I also saw the million dollar flats going up everywhere.

The single most impressive thing I saw in that city. Was of the thousands of people that were walking the streets at lunch time. I think I saw 2 or 3 w/out ties. That to me was amazing...and in some ways steril. Sometimes the smallest of details paints the biggest of pictures. It means the city is amass in revenue and is wealthy. It has a good handle on growth but must be careful too not get lost w/out an identity. Charlotte is impressive but isn't without it's criticisms. North Carolina and many of it's cities are worthy to study.

Facts are facts and it is really fruitless to debate how we've gotten where we are. It is time we begin to climb out of the hole - are concede to defeat.

Agreed, while Louisville isn't the city it was in the 1980's there is still much we need to improve upon. The college attainment level tells it all, roughly only 22% as of 2000. If Louisville wants to be a serious competitor for the jobs you mentioned these numbers must be improved. Here's a website put together by one of my economics professors while I was at UofL. I paints a good picture of Louisville's economic picture if you take the time to look at the reports. http://monitor.louisville.edu/

I don't know where the $40 million number comes from. If every person in Louisville makes $25,000 per year end the occupation tax rises 0.02% and you multiply $25,000 x 0.0002 you get $5 and you multiply that by the approximately one million people and you get five million dollars. The math is pretty simple. The $25,000 number per person may be a little off but if it's any thing it's probably too high since the one million number includes children, welfare recipients, unemployed, etc.

Using streets makes perfect sense considering they are so under used, I'm sure shutting a couple down wouldn't be a problem. The rail lines you talk about are either abandoned or used for freight trains. Freight trains in light rail do not mix. I also think you'd be surprised to see what percentage of the jobs are downtown and what percentage of those workers live in the areas you mention, it's much lower than you think.

Here's the link for the tax info http://www.ridetarc.org/news.asp?ArticleID=332, not to downplay your math, but their's might be a little more scientific.
I understand that a very small percentage of total jobs in the metro are downtown, but no where else are they more concentrated? I'm also not talking about closing down an entire street, but simply using part of it for lightrail, and if the lines are abandon even better, point being there is a way to install the lines without any major demolishion.

This isn't a definite, it's just an idea, there will be studies on the best routes, where they would make the most sense, we can only hope our elected officials would make the best decision. If it turns out that light rail simply isn't viable at this time, I wouldn't support it, the fact that they are thinking outside the box and just perhaps are giving it a chance it was is so appealing to me.

Here's the link for the tax info http://www.ridetarc.org/news.asp?ArticleID=332, not to downplay your math, but their's might be a little more scientific.
After reading the article I see where the confusion is, it was stated in your original post they would raise the tax 0.02% when in reality they want to raise the tax 0.2% a significant difference! If you take my estimate and multiply by 10 (the difference of the percentages above) you get $50 million which is a little higher thantheir number which is what I guessed. This means they want to double the local employment tax! Certainly not something that anybody (except TARC) would be happy with. :ohno:

Msradell and REdeveloper have different writing styles, IMO. Probably not the same person.

One thing to consider about Charlotte, it has a very pro-development and pro-change attitude. Charlotte knows where it came from and where it wants to go - i.e., a very different place. I was chatting with someone about Louisville the other day (a transplant now living there), and his take was that Louisville loves what it is and is proud of what it is - a huge strength, but also a weakness. Charlotte has big tracts of land along that rail line zoned simply TOD. Can we imagine the same types of reshaping of the urban frabric brought on by rail that Charlotte is embracing and hoping for being welcomed in Louisville? I wonder.

If you ask me, if you're going to do rail, the place to do it is along Frankfort Ave. where there is already an existing high quality rail line you could probably run some DMU type vehicles on for little more than the cost of the trainsets and some basic asphalt platforms. Getting the railroad to go along with it would be a challenge, of course. Also, there is the problem that the only manufacturer of FRA compliant DMU cars - Colorado Railcar - just went bust.

Here's a question, and maybe its a REALLY dumb one, but what would it cost to put an elevated track above some of the existing rail lines that are unusable due to freight? I think something that would be hard to sell people on is the idea of light rail running on streets. It isn't really any better than taking a bus. Just looks cooler... In stretches like the Frankfort Ave line, it seems like it could be possible to "simply" build a track over the freight line... that way it isn't running on the street and you arent looking for land or a lane to put the track on... of course it may just be outrageously expensive and impractical... but what project isnt these days?

Here's a link to the costs for expanding Seattle's light rail system: Seattle costs (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/380438_transitcost25.html). In summary they're going to spend about $22 billion to expand their system 34 miles. That works out to about $600 million per mile. The expansion is a mix of grade level and elevated section, and it's an expansion so a lot of the fixed costs (control center, maintenance sheds, etc.) have have already been spent and are not required again.

These costs are probably quite similar to what would be required in Louisville and in my opinion well out of the range of reality.

The problem with elevated rail over freight is that you probably have to leave room for double stack container cars - or around 26 feet of vertical clearance. Its more than a simple road/road overpass + there is the vibrations, etc. And elevates stations at around $40 million apiece. I'd suggest somewhere around $150 million per mile, but that's a shot in the dark.

Elevated systems can be built for less than that in the right circumstances. The Clarian people mover in Indianapolis (elevated AGT) only cost $35 million or so for about $1.5 miles.

Thanks for the input! I really have little knowledge about construction costs and things, but the idea always struck me as worth exploring, so I thought I'd ask. Seattle's system seems insanely priced, but surely it has to do somewhat with aquiring land(assuming we are talking about 34 new miles of rail) and building in established, high-value areas? Not that even $300mil per mile is something Louisville should tackle, but I can't imagine that Louisville would be looking at numbers similar to that of a system in a city like Seattle. Arenn's numbers sound a little more realistic for the type of project the Louisville would do should the city ever opt for elevated rail.

On a different note---
Museum Plaza may be teatering on a cliff, but its web cam still works, and it took some cool shots of the Zirmed tower as it finishes up!

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/eweezerinc/Zirmed2.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/eweezerinc/Zirmed1.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/eweezerinc/Zirmed3.jpg

Louisville needn't oceans, moutains or parks to be competitive. It needs a welcoming business environment. It needs 3 things to be specific:
A pro business enviornment
A burocracy that isnt cumbersome
And "all" of the other existing attributes that make it unique and special.

All else will follow; endowments, funding, public projects, arts, charities, infrastructure et al.


With regards to my previous posting about Charlotte, I think this is a very telling post. I translate it as "Louisville needs to be more pro-business, but otherwise is just fine the way it is." Now I think Louisville has many good qualities, but I don't think that if it merely changes its bureaucracy and becomes more pro-business, that college grads and corporate headquarters will be beating a path to its door.

The idea of placing inter-city passenger rail on elevated tracks over freight rail makes as much sense as combining high speed passenger cars and high speed, long-haul freight trucking on Interstate highways, that is it makes no sense at all. Inevitably there will be an unintentional mixing of the modes, which is a recipe for disaster.

Have we not killed enough people already?

^^
Actually, I was suggesting a light-rail elevated track that would work within the metro, and only where there happen to be convenient, existling lines such as along Frankfort Ave... Furthermore, I was merely asking the feasibility as I would consider myself ignorant to types of transit and the various alternatives and possibilities. But hey, thats cool. You're right. Score you for one upping another forumer. I've officially been schooled.

After reading the article I see where the confusion is, it was stated in your original post they would raise the tax 0.02% when in reality they want to raise the tax 0.2% a significant difference! If you take my estimate and multiply by 10 (the difference of the percentages above) you get $50 million which is a little higher thantheir number which is what I guessed. This means they want to double the local employment tax! Certainly not something that anybody (except TARC) would be happy with. :ohno:

You could say it that way or that instead a fifth of a penny for every dollar, we would spend a little less than half a penny for every dollar. At $50K that's a hundred dollar increase. I'm fully for no taxation without representation, but if Tarc shows up with a solid feasible plan for enhanced mass transit in Louisville, I would be willing to give up a hundred dollars for that, especially when gas goes back up to $4 a gallon, and higher. This is simply a long range plan, nothing definite, but it's smart. Gas will not be under $2 a gallon for long.

Those are some good shots of the Zirmed Gateway Tower. Anyone know if anything else will go up in that parking lot? It would be nice to see it filled in.

I've heard that "green" technologies will be the next revolution, as was information technology in the late part of the 20th century. If this is true, this is a step (hopefully not only)in the right step for Louisville.

UofL alum pledges $20 million toward renewable energy center
The Courier-Journal • January 26, 2009

Gov. Steve Beshear and University of Louisville are announcing the creation of a renewable energy center funded by a $20 million pledge from an alumnus and his wife.

U of L is calling the gift the largest ever individual donation to U of L or any public Kenucky university. It came from Henry Conn and his wife, Rebecca, of Atlanta. Both are originally from Louisville.

“We were looking for one cause to significantly support, in an effort to make the needle move, to really make a difference,” Conn said in a written statement.

Conn is a senior executive advisor for corporations throughout the world, U of L said. He previosly held senior positions with A.T. Kearney, a global consulting firm; Tarkenton Conn & Co, and TRW, Inc.

The center will be called The Conn Center for Renewable Energy and Research and Environmental Stewardship, officials said.

U of L officials said the the Kentucky General Assembly established the center in 2007 to provide leadership, support and policy develoment in renewable energy. Today, officials announced that the center will be located at U of L.

There was an article in the Herald Leader today about this. Good stuff for Louisville!

Thanks for the input! I really have little knowledge about construction costs and things, but the idea always struck me as worth exploring, so I thought I'd ask. Seattle's system seems insanely priced, but surely it has to do somewhat with aquiring land(assuming we are talking about 34 new miles of rail) and building in established, high-value areas? Not that even $300mil per mile is something Louisville should tackle, but I can't imagine that Louisville would be looking at numbers similar to that of a system in a city like Seattle. Arenn's numbers sound a little more realistic for the type of project the Louisville would do should the city ever opt for elevated rail.
If you go look at where they're building this expansion it's actually not in the heart of Seattle, it's in some of the outlying areas. The system in the heart of Seattle is already completed and that's the expensive part. This part should be a cheaper portions of the project so I feel they're probably close to what it would cost here, unfortunately it appears the costs are just ridiculous to build such a system.

^^
Wow. Well I wish Louisville made mass transit as big a priority as it is in Seattle. $22billion... How much of that is federal money?

U of L officials said the the Kentucky General Assembly established the center in 2007 to provide leadership, support and policy develoment in renewable energy. Today, officials announced that the center will be located at U of L.
Any word on whether it will be on the main campus was a Shelby campus? It seems like the Shelby campus is being developed into a technology park so I would think it would go there.

^^
Wow. Well I wish Louisville made mass transit as big a priority as it is in Seattle. $22billion... How much of that is federal money?

I believe most of it is local. A tax passed in November that will raise many billions - though that is over the 20 or so year life of the tax. It's not present value.

Yeah that would make since to put it on Shelby Campus, Business First mentioned it would be part of Speed School, but my assumption is that they will need a new facility. I do know that UofL just made a deal to buy the land just south of speed which is currently housing Kentucky Manufacturing Co, this site could also work.

Is the Seattle system heavy of light rail? I know when it was proposed back in 2002 the light rail line in Louisville was estimated to cost roughly $500 million to go from the Gene Synder to downtown, still expensive but not quite at the 22 billion in Seattle.

NIMBY's are at it again :ohno:...

Plans for hotel at Zorn and I-71 face challenge
By Martha Elson • January 27, 2009

Approval of plans for a Holiday Inn Select hotel at Zorn Avenue and Interstate 71 is being challenged by the City of Mockingbird Valley, Mockingbird Valley Preservation Alliance and River Fields environmental group.

The Metro Board of Zoning Adjustment approved plans and a height waiver for the proposed project Dec. 15 but decided to rehear the case Monday, at the request of the three parties.

The meeting will be held at 8 a.m. at the Old Jail Building, 514 W. Liberty St. The hotel's developer is the Barrister Group.

Attorney Deborah Bilitski, who represents Barrister, said in a Jan. 14 letter to Judy Francis, the zoning board's chairwoman, that the board does not have the authority to reopen or reconsider a "final decision" from Dec. 15.

Attorney Bob Griffith, who represents Mockingbird Valley and the other two parties, said the building would be too tall in a "sensitive area" that's a gateway to a Scenic Byway on River Road and the Mockingbird Valley National Register of Historic Places District. The building is proposed to be 84.75 feet in the front and 98.75 feet in back, compared to the 45 foot height normally allowed in that area.

Paul Bickel, a member of the preservation alliance, said he would like to see a nice hotel there but the one that's proposed "changes the feel of the area" and could "set a dangerous precedent."

Mixed-use project proposed at Masterson's site
It includes housing, commercial space
By Sheldon S. Shafer • sshafer@courier-journal.com • January 27, 2009

A developer wants to build a mixed-use project that would include commercial space and housing, some of it targeted for University of Louisville students, at the Masterson's site near the Belknap Campus.

City officials confirmed that Investment Property Advisors, which has offices in Valparaiso, Ind., has control of the restaurant site.

The well-known, family-owned restaurant is now open to the public only for Sunday brunch. But Masterson's operates a large catering, conference and banquet business at the site. The existing building would be torn down.

Two members of the family, Philip and Brian Masterson, declined comment on the plans for the property.

Except for some private residences on the northeast portion of the block, Masterson's owns the entire area bounded by Cardinal Boulevard and Third, Fourth and Bloom streets.

Chase Sorrick, one of the owners of Investment Property Advisors, said in a phone interview that representatives of the firm will be in Louisville in mid-February to meet with city officials and neighbors on plans for the site. Sorrick indicated the plans are still fluid, pending the meeting and further talks.

Deborah Bilitski, the developer's Louisville zoning lawyer, declined comment.

John Fischer, an assistant director of the city's economic development department, affirmed Investment Property's plan to develop the Masterson's site. He said the department plans a mid-February meeting with the developer and neighbors. The developer, he said, "has control of the site" through either options or contracts.

Herb Fink, chairman of the Old Louisville Property Improvement Committee, attended an initial meeting with the developers last fall. He said the planned development probably would cost at least $6 million.

The primary proposed land use was for student housing, he said, adding that "we would definitely have concerns about the density, land use, traffic and circulation."

Larry Owsley, U of L vice president for business affairs, said he had talked with the developer but that, at this point, the company was not "actively negotiating" with U of L for an affiliation for it to provide staff, security and programs for any student residents.

U of L has about 3,300 on-campus beds for students and has said it wants to have at least 4,800 in the next few years.

Edwards Communities of Columbus, Ohio, plans to open units with 859 beds just west of the campus this fall, Owsley said.

And Phenix Investment Associates of Georgia plans to have ready this fall several hundred additional apartments for students, also just west of campus.

A third company, Icon-Cards Development LLC, has put on hold plans for new student housing just northwest of Cardinal Boulevard and Floyd Street.

Owsley said that, if more than 1,500 new units for students become available, some of the existing older units on campus could be phased out. Some of them date to the early 1960s.

Masterson's Restaurant opened at the site in the 1960s. Previously, the Hollywood Steak House was situated on the property.

A Louisville developer, Louis & Henry, pursued plans in 1995 to put 160 apartments and 15,800 square feet of retail space on the Masterson's property, which includes a large parking lot.

Those plans were shelved in the face of residents' opposition.

"The neighborhood had strong objections," Fink said. The proposed project "was out of scale. (The site) would have been overdeveloped."

Is the Seattle system heavy of light rail? I know when it was proposed back in 2002 the light rail line in Louisville was estimated to cost roughly $500 million to go from the Gene Synder to downtown, still expensive but not quite at the 22 billion in Seattle.
The Seattle system is light rail. They had originally talked about expanding the downtown monorail system but that price was even higher! I think the original estimate for Louisville was low balled to get people interested and could never have been built for that price. They're also going to put it down the middle of I-65 so there wouldn't have been any right of way costs. Of course there also wouldn't have been any customers. :ohno:

Hollands have a Green vision for Louisville (http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20090201/SCENE05/902010330)
By Diane Heilenman, Courier-Journal, February 1, 2009

Augusta Brown Holland sees the future when she looks out the back windows at the Green Building that she and her husband, Gill Holland, have almost completed at 732 E. Market St.

The future is not just the Louisville couple's well-known ambition that their renovation of a 110-year old dry goods building earn Louisville's first Platinum LEED designation.

Their building does have all the bells and whistles that could earn it a Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design (LEED) plaque from the U.S. Green Building Council -- geo-thermal heating and cooling, extensive recycling, a heat-mediating, planted roof.

What is really important about the Green Building, said Augusta, 32, is that it is "the nugget" of the future she has long envisioned for her hometown.

When she looks out over the roof planted with sedums and the solar panels, she sees across the back alley, clear through to Jefferson Street.

There, she envisions the half-dozen blue garage doors on an old white warehouse opening and closing with farmers bringing fresh, organic food and other products to hundreds of shoppers at a year-round metro market.

Jefferson Market, it would be called, and it may happen as soon as two years from now, said Augusta, holding an overview plan created by Project for Public Spaces, the New York City-based consultant the Hollands and partners have privately retained.

The plan shows an entire city block from Shelby to Clay streets, Market to Jefferson transformed into a marketplace destination.

Augusta Holland, a member of the Louisville family that owns Brown-Forman Corp., is a former policy analyst for the Environmental Defense Fund headquartered in New York. She has a degree in sociology from the University of Virginia and a master's degree in urban planning from Columbia University in New York.

Her master's thesis on farmland preservation in Kentucky's Oldham County explored why farmers sell their land to developers. It made her realize how much farmers need direct sales to consumers and made her think about a downtown farmers market in Louisville.

She met Gill Holland when both were living in New York City but happened to be attending a North Carolina wedding.

Holland told her he was a record label producer and film producer ("Sweet Land," "Flow: For the Love of Water"). Augusta Brown said she was going to establish a year-round fresh-food market in downtown Louisville. "I thought," Gill recalled, "that is so sexy."

The short version is, Augusta delayed her plans to leave New York City and start the project in Louisville.

"I was already looking at buildings," she recalled.

They married in Louisville and lived in New York until daughter, Cora, now 2 years old, was born. Then, the Hollands moved to Louisville where Gill ran his businesses from a rented office on East Market Street, which doubled as Gallery NuLu, named as in "new Louisville," with some of the snappy sensibility of Manhattan's SoHo art area.

Gill, 44, was raised in his native North Carolina and in his mother's native Norway. He has become a fervent Louisvillian, in love with the possibilities of the city that he thinks is poised for greatness.

His producer's pragmatism shows when he gives an impromptu walking tour of the Jefferson Market block to-be. Gill likes to call up some hard figures and marketing facts.

"There will be 2,500 people at Liberty Green," he noted, pointing in the direction of the Jefferson Street public housing with apartments, town homes and condos.

He pointed uptown a few blocks to the hotel area and notes Jefferson Market will cater, also, to tourists within walking distance from downtown hotels. Holland gestured to existing historical and not-so-historical buildings and says he has been talking with Actors Theater of Louisville about renovating them as temporary housing for actors and actresses.

Clearly, the dramas played along Louisville's East Market Street in the past two decades are not over.

As antiques dealer Joe Ley and artists such as Billy Hertz and the Zephyr cooperative anchored the area, small cafes and retail followed, and the East Market Art Zone spawned Gallery Hops that attracted wannabe and real urbanites. By the time the Hollands came to town, developers were beginning construction on condos and lofts and at least two architecture firms relocated to the area.

When the Hollands moved into their Green Building last fall, they renamed Gallery NuLu and offered NuLu as a brand name to the East Louisville Business Association, which voted yes.

All these shifts have been possible, in part, with the decision late last year by Wayside Christian Mission to sell most of its 10-building campus in the area for the homeless to the Hollands and other investors and to relocate, rather than renovate the hodge-podge campus.

Jefferson Market partners include Louisville-born actor William Mapother ("In the Bedroom"), Lois Mateus, a retired executive of Brown-Forman, and her husband, contractor Tim Peters, who oversaw the Green Building renovation.

"We are looking at a lot of ways, both public and private and non-profit and/or a hybrid to have this market endure sustainably," Gill said.

Augusta said plans include small and large vendors, initially six to 10, possibly including Creation Gardens, which currently sells primarily wholesale to chefs. The market would sell a mix of fresh and prepared foods. It would help solve the food desert zone that plagues downtown and western Louisville.

"Now, anyone who wants organic food has to drive all the way into St. Matthews to Whole Foods," Holland noted.

The Jefferson Market investment group asked for a $150,000 study, half of which came from the Kentucky Agricultural Development Board created by the legislature in 2000 to pursue investments in alternative businesses for Kentucky farms hit by the demise of tobacco revenues.

The report, conducted for the Mayor's Healthy Hometown Movement, concluded that more Kentucky-grown foods could be sold with increased co-ordination of farmers markets and with the establishment of a private, indoor public market over the next three to five years.

Hollands have a Green vision for Louisville (http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20090201/SCENE05/902010330)
By Diane Heilenman, Courier-Journal, February 1, 2009

Augusta Brown Holland sees the future when she looks out the back windows at the Green Building that she and her husband, Gill Holland, have almost completed at 732 E. Market St.

The future is not just the Louisville couple's well-known ambition that their renovation of a 110-year old dry goods building earn Louisville's first Platinum LEED designation.

Their building does have all the bells and whistles that could earn it a Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design (LEED) plaque from the U.S. Green Building Council -- geo-thermal heating and cooling, extensive recycling, a heat-mediating, planted roof.

What is really important about the Green Building, said Augusta, 32, is that it is "the nugget" of the future she has long envisioned for her hometown.

When she looks out over the roof planted with sedums and the solar panels, she sees across the back alley, clear through to Jefferson Street.

There, she envisions the half-dozen blue garage doors on an old white warehouse opening and closing with farmers bringing fresh, organic food and other products to hundreds of shoppers at a year-round metro market.

Jefferson Market, it would be called, and it may happen as soon as two years from now, said Augusta, holding an overview plan created by Project for Public Spaces, the New York City-based consultant the Hollands and partners have privately retained.

The plan shows an entire city block from Shelby to Clay streets, Market to Jefferson transformed into a marketplace destination.

Augusta Holland, a member of the Louisville family that owns Brown-Forman Corp., is a former policy analyst for the Environmental Defense Fund headquartered in New York. She has a degree in sociology from the University of Virginia and a master's degree in urban planning from Columbia University in New York.

Her master's thesis on farmland preservation in Kentucky's Oldham County explored why farmers sell their land to developers. It made her realize how much farmers need direct sales to consumers and made her think about a downtown farmers market in Louisville.

She met Gill Holland when both were living in New York City but happened to be attending a North Carolina wedding.

Holland told her he was a record label producer and film producer ("Sweet Land," "Flow: For the Love of Water"). Augusta Brown said she was going to establish a year-round fresh-food market in downtown Louisville. "I thought," Gill recalled, "that is so sexy."

The short version is, Augusta delayed her plans to leave New York City and start the project in Louisville.

"I was already looking at buildings," she recalled.

They married in Louisville and lived in New York until daughter, Cora, now 2 years old, was born. Then, the Hollands moved to Louisville where Gill ran his businesses from a rented office on East Market Street, which doubled as Gallery NuLu, named as in "new Louisville," with some of the snappy sensibility of Manhattan's SoHo art area.

Gill, 44, was raised in his native North Carolina and in his mother's native Norway. He has become a fervent Louisvillian, in love with the possibilities of the city that he thinks is poised for greatness.

His producer's pragmatism shows when he gives an impromptu walking tour of the Jefferson Market block to-be. Gill likes to call up some hard figures and marketing facts.

"There will be 2,500 people at Liberty Green," he noted, pointing in the direction of the Jefferson Street public housing with apartments, town homes and condos.

He pointed uptown a few blocks to the hotel area and notes Jefferson Market will cater, also, to tourists within walking distance from downtown hotels. Holland gestured to existing historical and not-so-historical buildings and says he has been talking with Actors Theater of Louisville about renovating them as temporary housing for actors and actresses.

Clearly, the dramas played along Louisville's East Market Street in the past two decades are not over.

As antiques dealer Joe Ley and artists such as Billy Hertz and the Zephyr cooperative anchored the area, small cafes and retail followed, and the East Market Art Zone spawned Gallery Hops that attracted wannabe and real urbanites. By the time the Hollands came to town, developers were beginning construction on condos and lofts and at least two architecture firms relocated to the area.

When the Hollands moved into their Green Building last fall, they renamed Gallery NuLu and offered NuLu as a brand name to the East Louisville Business Association, which voted yes.

All these shifts have been possible, in part, with the decision late last year by Wayside Christian Mission to sell most of its 10-building campus in the area for the homeless to the Hollands and other investors and to relocate, rather than renovate the hodge-podge campus.

Jefferson Market partners include Louisville-born actor William Mapother ("In the Bedroom"), Lois Mateus, a retired executive of Brown-Forman, and her husband, contractor Tim Peters, who oversaw the Green Building renovation.

"We are looking at a lot of ways, both public and private and non-profit and/or a hybrid to have this market endure sustainably," Gill said.

Augusta said plans include small and large vendors, initially six to 10, possibly including Creation Gardens, which currently sells primarily wholesale to chefs. The market would sell a mix of fresh and prepared foods. It would help solve the food desert zone that plagues downtown and western Louisville.

"Now, anyone who wants organic food has to drive all the way into St. Matthews to Whole Foods," Holland noted.

The Jefferson Market investment group asked for a $150,000 study, half of which came from the Kentucky Agricultural Development Board created by the legislature in 2000 to pursue investments in alternative businesses for Kentucky farms hit by the demise of tobacco revenues.

The report, conducted for the Mayor's Healthy Hometown Movement, concluded that more Kentucky-grown foods could be sold with increased co-ordination of farmers markets and with the establishment of a private, indoor public market over the next three to five years.


Oh my lord, here come the Browns part deux

This article is really just a typical CJ feel good fluff piece serves more of a p/r piece than subtantive reporting. This couple has been on the blitz in recent months....you need folks w/ amgitions like that to partner w/ others to pull off a more grand plan. The only problem, the plan will need money, hence a developer and an exit strategy. My guess neither are in place to take this anywhere off the paper the architects have colored.

^^
Seriously, I appreciate your being honest and taking a perhaps more down-to-earth opinion on stuff, but maybe you could be more skeptical than negative of their pontential? Perhaps they know what they're doing and aren't just jumping off the deep end. I dunno, that's what we can hope for. I certainly hope they succeed. Nothing big can happen without dreamers who want to see big things happen... Have a little faith. :okay:

REdeveloper, this isn't the C-J's comment section. If you want to have a constructive conversation, feel free. But your broad assertions of everyone's inability to develop Louisville is getting real old. So, add something constructive, or don't add anything at all.

eweezer - my approach and view is from w/in the industry and I don't mean to be negative - although I realize it may appear. I don't sugar coat the reality of things - I just tell it like it is. I'm sorry it is not colorful and full of hope and aspiration. I can see the perception of my thoughts can come off as negative but count on the fact that I will not open my mouth on this forum unless I know what I am saying to be fact. This is where I came from a year ago w/ MP - pissed off a lot of people. There have been many projects I have not commented on as I simply can not judge whether they will or will not succeed. Some I know - will not. Others I support w/out reservation. Fact is there are a huge slate of projects in the last couple of years that were financed wrecklessly or not thoughtout completely regarding a comprehensive plan and it didn't mean Louisville was booming it meant Louisville was heading for a major correction. This will continue to unfold in the next 2 years at least. Now if this forum wants a single minded, polarized approach to Development projects then my 2 cents will never be of any value.

This project NuLu - is a great fluff piece but one needs to read a real publication to realize - planting grass on a rooftop and envisioning urban vegetable markets has no NEWS value to any industy let alone our community; other than those that just bank on hope.

"You'll never succeed in idealizing hard work. Before you can dig mother earth you've got to take off your ideal jacket. The harder a man works, at brute labor, the thinner becomes his idealism, the darker his mind."
-D.H.Lawarance


Oh and daville - tough'n up you'll be ok

Well, so far, confirmed developments by the Holland's -- 1

Confirmed developments by REdeveloper -- 0

Naw. You're just coming off as kinda pompous. But I appreciate the effort. :okay:
I don't know why it's naive to want others to succeed... Whether you think they have what it takes or not. It's called a positive outlook. You act like you can't wait to watch the Hollands fail miserably.. And we all certainly appreciate different opinions on these forums, and we get them on here often. But we all have one thing in common in this thread: we want Louisville to succeed. Again, big difference between skepticism and negativity. Oh well.

Does anyone know how well(or not..) Downtown's tree population has faired in the wake of the ice storm? I knew Brokensidewalk posted photos of a lot of damaged trees in Waterfront Park.

Well, so far, confirmed developments by the Holland's -- 1

Confirmed developments by REdeveloper -- 0

another gainful statistic by our man daville

Naw. You're just coming off as kinda pompous. But I appreciate the effort. :okay:
I don't know why it's naive to want others to succeed... Whether you think they have what it takes or not. It's called a positive outlook. You act like you can't wait to watch the Hollands fail miserably.. And we all certainly appreciate different opinions on these forums, and we get them on here often. But we all have one thing in common in this thread: we want Louisville to succeed. Again, big difference between skepticism and negativity. Oh well.

Does anyone know how well(or not..) Downtown's tree population has faired in the wake of the ice storm? I knew Brokensidewalk posted photos of a lot of damaged trees in Waterfront Park.

Depends upon your perspective. The mature oaks and hardwoods in the west end at Shawnee and larger parks are virtually untouched for the most part while smaller ornamental trees on 6th street, Main street, Market Street and many other places are in pretty bad shape. Do not expect the city to be replanting this spring. I think it will need to come from private donations. Organize a campaign to replant and I'll donate.

Naw. You're just coming off as kinda pompous. But I appreciate the effort. :okay:
I don't know why it's naive to want others to succeed... Whether you think they have what it takes or not. It's called a positive outlook. You act like you can't wait to watch the Hollands fail miserably.. And we all certainly appreciate different opinions on these forums, and we get them on here often. But we all have one thing in common in this thread: we want Louisville to succeed. Again, big difference between skepticism and negativity. Oh well.

Does anyone know how well(or not..) Downtown's tree population has faired in the wake of the ice storm? I knew Brokensidewalk posted photos of a lot of damaged trees in Waterfront Park.

Not very well, especially around 4th street. A lot will need to be replanted

Thanks, REdeveloper, for proving my point.

Anyone know where the 20th century troll lines use to run downtown?

Is there any link available to identify the grid specifically looking if Hill Street was included. Found an old photo w/ a cobblestone and trolley line running on what appears to be Hill Street but east/west seems odd. I would've thought lines ran north/south.

eweezer - my approach and view is from w/in the industry and I don't mean to be negative - although I realize it may appear. I don't sugar coat the reality of things - I just tell it like it is. I'm sorry it is not colorful and full of hope and aspiration. I can see the perception of my thoughts can come off as negative but count on the fact that I will not open my mouth on this forum unless I know what I am saying to be fact. This is where I came from a year ago w/ MP - pissed off a lot of people. There have been many projects I have not commented on as I simply can not judge whether they will or will not succeed. Some I know - will not. Others I support w/out reservation. Fact is there are a huge slate of projects in the last couple of years that were financed wrecklessly or not thoughtout completely regarding a comprehensive plan and it didn't mean Louisville was booming it meant Louisville was heading for a major correction. This will continue to unfold in the next 2 years at least. Now if this forum wants a single minded, polarized approach to Development projects then my 2 cents will never be of any value.

This project NuLu - is a great fluff piece but one needs to read a real publication to realize - planting grass on a rooftop and envisioning urban vegetable markets has no NEWS value to any industy let alone our community; other than those that just bank on hope.

"You'll never succeed in idealizing hard work. Before you can dig mother earth you've got to take off your ideal jacket. The harder a man works, at brute labor, the thinner becomes his idealism, the darker his mind."
-D.H.Lawarance


Oh and daville - tough'n up you'll be ok


No, really, you are full of it and have become nothing less than a troll. I am far from all candy fluff pro cheerleader louisville like mayor abramson, but I also know Louisville is a legit city doing great things, with lots of development both underwayand planned. louisville needs a year round market and will support it. comubus oh has a great example of what it couldbe, my hom eof cincy has a good one, but it is more of an old city historic market. louisville will easily support a year round market with all the rotationg ones it has around town, I think there are at least 20 weekly markets around the areas.:ohno:
everyone on this forum knows you are lying about who you say you are. everyone also should kknow that you sent me a PM saying you would not meet me in person because of the anonymity needed in your profession? Here you are badmouthing major projects, so why dont u man up and show who you really are? meet me at highland coffee sometime. you pick the time and date. you can even give me a fake name, i dont care. but seriously, come with deeds and draft plans of "all your major projects" and "inside information." :bash:until then, we know you are full of it. Seriously, is there a way to check IP addresses here bc im willing to bet this guy is not posting from louisville. Daville, do you know how to contact mods?

^^He could be posting from louisville and its just that he's a fifteen year old.

Look, this is totally uncalled for; I welcome the moderator to evaluate. I welcome the moderator to contact me via PM to evaluate whether I am a 15 year old or person like you contributing to the board. If there is anything I have said that contradicts this forums rules I welcome the boot. Several of you continue to personally attack, because my opinons are unpopular. So until the Mod makes that determination - get over it. Since when does anyone on this forum need to post credentials to validate a post.

Here is the PM I sent you as follows:

You requested a PM....so here you are. I'm not a troll - I have a different opinion. Don't let my opinion upset you. Just agree that it is different and leave it at that.
I appreciate the invitation to discuss the matter but I would hope you can appreciate the fact I can not share priveledged information on a public forum regarding my industry w/out anonimity.

No, really, you are full of it and have become nothing less than a troll. I am far from all candy fluff pro cheerleader louisville like mayor abramson, but I also know Louisville is a legit city doing great things, with lots of development both underwayand planned. louisville needs a year round market and will support it. comubus oh has a great example of what it couldbe, my hom eof cincy has a good one, but it is more of an old city historic market. louisville will easily support a year round market with all the rotationg ones it has around town, I think there are at least 20 weekly markets around the areas.:ohno:
everyone on this forum knows you are lying about who you say you are. everyone also should know that you sent me a PM saying you would not meet me in person because of the anonymity needed in your profession? Here you are badmouthing major projects, so why dont u man up and show who you really are? meet me at highland coffee sometime. you pick the time and date. you can even give me a fake name, i dont care. but seriously, come with deeds and draft plans of "all your major projects" and "inside information." :bash:until then, we know you are full of it. Seriously, is there a way to check IP addresses here bc im willing to bet this guy is not posting from louisville. Daville, do you know how to contact mods?

^^He could be posting from louisville and its just that he's a fifteen year old.

I certainly wish you guys would quit being so childish and instead of making fun of the legitimate posters start talking about this subject at hand. I do believe REdeveloper is very legitimate but even if he's not he brings up some good points. You guys really need to take off your rose colored glasses and realize what's happening in Louisville! Yes there is some good going on but there's certainly a lot more bad that you guys won't acknowledge.

Look, this is totally uncalled for; I welcome the moderator to evaluate. I welcome the moderator to contact me via PM to evaluate whether I am a 15 year old or person like you contributing to the board. If there is anything I have said that contradicts this forums rules I welcome the boot. Several of you continue to personally attack, because my opinons are unpopular. So until the Mod makes that determination - get over it. Since when does anyone on this forum need to post credentials to validate a post.

Here is the PM I sent you as follows:

You requested a PM....so here you are. I'm not a troll - I have a different opinion. Don't let my opinion upset you. Just agree that it is different and leave it at that.
I appreciate the invitation to discuss the matter but I would hope you can appreciate the fact I can not share priveledged information on a public forum regarding my industry w/out anonimity.

The problem really isnt your opinion but your outlandish claims like i developed so much in louisville and i know every project is going to fail blah blah blah. why didnt gallery nulu fail? why are the wayside buildings currently under renovation? why has holland already successfully opened the green buiding with many events, incuding the sweet halfway to forecastle festival. why is he leasing 732 social as a new upscale restaurant?
do u need a definition?
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
please quit making up lies! opinions are good and welcome, but lies are not. if you are who you say you are, you will meet me in person and prove it! i dont get the big deal? i would love to hear some of your inside info and im sure the people at brokensidewalk would too. i will keep your anonymity great developer of louisville! to msrasdell, there is way more good occuring in louisville than bad. like way more.

^^ The terms and conditions of this forum prohibit harrasament too so why are you any better than somebody you call a troll?

I'd also like to see your list it shows more good things are going an than bad in Louisville.

The problem really isnt your opinion but your outlandish claims like i developed so much in louisville and i know every project is going to fail blah blah blah. why didnt gallery nulu fail?

You are harrassing with this continual request to meet and IP address demand.


I never said every project is going to fail; that is a lie and inflamatory.

NuLu Gallery you ask? What does their site say? http://www.gallerynulu.com/ - CLOSED in September of 08.

Any further inquiries to me personally can be made via PM - take it off the board.

The problem really isnt your opinion but your outlandish claims like i developed so much in louisville and i know every project is going to fail blah blah blah. why didnt gallery nulu fail? why are the wayside buildings currently under renovation? why has holland already successfully opened the green buiding with many events, incuding the sweet halfway to forecastle festival. why is he leasing 732 social as a new upscale restaurant?
do u need a definition?
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
please quit making up lies! opinions are good and welcome, but lies are not. if you are who you say you are, you will meet me in person and prove it! i dont get the big deal? i would love to hear some of your inside info and im sure the people at brokensidewalk would too. i will keep your anonymity great developer of louisville! to msrasdell, there is way more good occuring in louisville than bad. like way more.

You are harrassing with this continual request to meet, definitions of troll and IP address demands.

I never said every project is going to fail; that is a lie and inflamatory.

NuLu Gallery you ask? http://www.gallerynulu.com/ - CLOSED in September of 08. duh!

Any further inquiries to me personally can be made via PM - take it off the board.

I just opened up my home, a cafe in the dinning room, an art gallery in the living room and a vegetable market in the kitchen. Who do I contact w/ the Curious Journal for my interpretation of New Louisville....plezzz

I never said every project is going to fail; that is a lie and inflamatory.


But, earlier you said:



Oh my lord, here come the Browns part deux...

This couple has been on the blitz in recent months....you need folks w/ amgitions like that to partner w/ others to pull off a more grand plan. The only problem, the plan will need money, hence a developer and an exit strategy. My guess neither are in place to take this anywhere off the paper the architects have colored.



So, what is it exactly that you meant? You are doubting their ability to pull off a development (although they've proven an ability to do so). With such a strong doubt, one can easily (and should) infer that you claim this project would fail.

I don't know why you have such a pessimistic outlook, although I do know you have a jaded view of Louisville (and cities in general). Remember when you compared Louisville to the blight of Detroit? Remember when you referenced the urban vitality of Jacksonville, FL? I do. That's why you're opinion is not highly regarded. You're knowledge of Louisville is suspect at best. You couldn't even recall Mayor Abramson's role in luring and keeping UPS's operation here. So, why should we heed your warning to "the Brown's part deux"?

Here's what I know (and have seen with my own eyes). The eastern part of downtown has made tremendous strides in the past few years. With the removal of the Clarksdale Projects, and the inclusion of many shops, galleries, and great restaurants, there is no reason to believe this momentum should stop. The Holland's have money, vision, and charisma. If anyone can pull of these trendy developments, it is them.

You may not want to be a part of what is going on in Louisville. But, don't bad mouth and talk down to the people who do. You've given us no reason to believe you are in a position to speak authoritatively on such issues, so really, you just sound like a pompous "wannabe".

Here's what I know (and have seen with my own eyes). The eastern part of downtown has made tremendous strides in the past few years. With the removal of the Clarksdale Projects, and the inclusion of many shops, galleries, and great restaurants, there is no reason to believe this momentum should stop.


Yes, I agree w/ you regarding this project. Fantastic public housing project, the stockyards - wonderful 501c3 venture, Butchertown area sustaining and resurging. So are many other parts of Metro. Highlands will always be strong, Old Louisville, well it is a jewel, UofL housing/athletics great, YWCA great, Galt - really needed it, yes, Frazier Museum - great, Brown Forman building great in fact the whole 2nd to 8th block is magnificant, Glassworks ideal concept and delivery - so on and so on. As I've said Louisville is capable of a lot of great things. I too am looking for that next great project.

There is reason to believe the "momentum" even in the east will stop. The gov. is debating a one trillion dollar stimlus, a mega billion TARP bailout (multiphase) and a complete and utter freeze on conventional lending not to mention the millions of jobs that may be lost in the next several years and the local newspaper rag is on the morphine drip chatting up LEED certification as though that is some opiat to the masses. In order to gain certification it must be "profitable." Until you obtain certification quite the p/r blitz - if they obtain - I'll reverse my course. I guess it is my aversion to people touting projects and there sucess before they are completed, certificaitons and magnificant adornments without securing an occupancy permit or financing. Destruction of public infrastructure without securing bonds. I guess we just have to agree to disagree on certain perceptions and prognosis. And I will try to throttle down my skepticism publicly. As I've said - if I didn't really care - I wouldn't be fighting mad.

NuLu Gallery you ask? http://www.gallerynulu.com/ - CLOSED in September of 08. duh!

The article simply stated that they renamed it so in essence I guess Gallery NuLu in no longer but I don't think it failed as you suggest.

"When the Hollands moved into their Green Building last fall, they renamed Gallery NuLu and offered NuLu as a brand name to the East Louisville Business Association, which voted yes."

NuLu Gallery you ask? http://www.gallerynulu.com/ - CLOSED in September of 08. duh!

The article simply stated that they renamed it so in essence I guess Gallery NuLu in no longer but I don't think it failed as you suggest.

"When the Hollands moved into their Green Building last fall, they renamed Gallery NuLu and offered NuLu as a brand name to the East Louisville Business Association, which voted yes."

I stand corrected - thank you

Hey, whoa. I know we aren't fond of RE's views or his(?) particular perspective on Louisville development, but let's not crucify him(I'm assuming?).. I hope I didnt fuel this with my couple posts, and I am sorry if I did. Let's stick to Louisville and her(?) development that is urban. =]

Hey, whoa. I know we aren't fond of RE's views or his(?) particular perspective on Louisville development, but let's not crucify him(I'm assuming?).. I hope I didnt fuel this with my couple posts, and I am sorry if I did. Let's stick to Louisville and her(?) development that is urban. =]

Thank you.

How about development that is urban, suburban and/or rural? I think the thread is Louisville/So.Indiana development - not urban renewal although I'm all for that where appropriate.

I was looking at the Broken Sidewalks site ( afew pages back and saw the story discussing the new $73 million classrooom. Although the exact location for the building has not been decided, they show a birds eye view around the campus near the ellipse. Wow,.. if there was EVER an opportunity to retrofit many many buildings with PhotoVoltaics and Green Roofs,.. this is it!. What a statement that would make towards UofL's committment to green technologies.. oh and would save the university some cash by turning it's power back to the grid. It can be done!

Steve - UofL Grad living in Washington DC

^^ I certainly agree that the opportunity for green technologies exists at the UofL campus. The biggest problem preventing it from happening is money. Kentucky like many other states has cut back funding for higher education considerably and the university's are lucky to get enough funding to operate. Unless other sources of funding are followed this certainly isn't going to happen in the very near future.

I was looking at the Broken Sidewalks site ( afew pages back and saw the story discussing the new $73 million classrooom. Although the exact location for the building has not been decided, they show a birds eye view around the campus near the ellipse. Wow,.. if there was EVER an opportunity to retrofit many many buildings with PhotoVoltaics and Green Roofs,.. this is it!. What a statement that would make towards UofL's committment to green technologies.. oh and would save the university some cash by turning it's power back to the grid. It can be done!

Steve - UofL Grad living in Washington DC

That is simply an arbitrary pic. They've stated that it will be at the Speed school. There is actually quite a bit of room there for several buildings.

They need to get rid of the asphalt around the Speed buildings and add grass and sidewalks, like in the pic you mentioned. Near the south end of that property, next to the tracks, they have room for probably one building.

I see the next few new classroom/research buildings, that aren't replacing the old dorms, being built around Speed. Mainly because that is the direction it should go and the easiest route for it to go. I think we will eventually see buildings where the current intramural fields (old baseball field and track) are now. Not get rid of the intramural fields, but moving them, as their exact location isn't important to the urban fabric of the school.

As you all know, UofL has purchased the 30+ acres directly south of Speed. This is the future growth area for UofL classroom/research buildings. Filling in Speed will simply help bridge the gap. This will connect the west side of campus all the way to PJCS (east side already connected that way).

but this picture is worth a thousand words toward the commitment of green technology. Look at the vast roofs of the former library? (Ekstrom?) The greening of the campus should be comprehensive to include any flat rood that would support PhotoVoltaics or actual green roofs. Paved surface parking lots should be converted to new technology green surfacing like this (http://www.inhabitat.com/2006/06/24/salvaverde/). This grant and new speed building should make a loud and clear statement to put us on the map of green technology. These typical DO have a large startup cost, but when working properly will ultimately save the university money by money not given to LG&E (are they still in charge?). The city of Louisville has a large number of flat roof buildings. Extend energy credits to thos who invest in PhotoVoltaics. We're on the verge of a breakthu with new thin-film that can be applied in places never dreamed of.

With all the talk of putting lines under ground, I wonder what the cost comparison would be to get a good portion of the city connected to something like this?

With all the talk of putting lines under ground, I wonder what the cost comparison would be to get a good portion of the city connected to something like this?

It usually costs 10-25k per block to bury utilities, really depends on whether sidewalk has to be torn up, if any easements have to be purchased, and etc.

It usually costs 10-25k per block to bury utilities, really depends on whether sidewalk has to be torn up, if any easements have to be purchased, and etc.
Where did this information from from? Does it include the feeds into each house or in this left up to the homeowner? This number certainly sounds extremely low for the amount of work required.

Where did this information from from? Does it include the feeds into each house or in this left up to the homeowner? This number certainly sounds extremely low for the amount of work required.

+1 - no way $10k-$20k a block - would like further explanation.

on your question regarding feeds, yes - outside of the easement would be the cost of the property owner. That would include transformer/pad + lineal foot cost of primary and secondary run lines into building/residence. It cost $10k-$20k for that scope alone per property, commercial anyway.

Also some property owners would be required to place "switching gear transformers" periodically and recently I looked into relocating one 25 lineal feet w/in their easement and the quoted estimate from LG&E was $40k. LG&E can locate these transformers anywhere w/in their easement and not notify property owners until after the fact, meaning not required to be depicted on a civil U1 drawing. This particular one was w/in 15 feet of the entrance to a hotel and vehicles could not see around the switching transformer to exit. Hazard and eye soar but would be my nickle. No thanks we'll deal w/ it.

What I was wondering was if the cost to run into each home would be included in the project cost (if it indeed was undertaken) or if each homeowner would be billed for their feed like is done for sewer and water taps. If individuals were to be billed for it that would certainly kill the enthusiasm very rapidly.

I asked a local developer last year what it would cost to bury power lines and he said LG&E told him about $75,000 per city block.

It would be outlandishly expensive. If this would ever to even be considered it would have to be over the course of a few decades.

What I was wondering was if the cost to run into each home would be included in the project cost (if it indeed was undertaken) or if each homeowner would be billed for their feed like is done for sewer and water taps. If individuals were to be billed for it that would certainly kill the enthusiasm very rapidly.

Yes, homeowners would be required to capitalize the feed from easement.

The feed is only as good as the weakest link. So any upgrades would begin w/ the largest points of distribution.

Until such time as there is a cost benefit ratio that E-ON can capitalize on there won't be any forward momentum. Right now these disaster related nuances are too in-frequent and time will squash the chatter. E-ON bills back to consumers their maintenance expenses through Ky. Ute Regs.

On the flip side, if I was a home owner I would buy a generator hard/wire it in to the electrical panel and knock this out for $2k-$4k depending on size and treat it as any other creature comfort. This does add value to a home and is affixed to the RE.

its worth every penny imo! they need to bury the wires in the highlands and on bardstown road!

its worth every penny imo! they need to bury the wires in the highlands and on bardstown road!
Feel free to pay for it then, just make sure the rest of us don't have to contribute!

Cordish backing out of part of its 4th Street development plans:

The Cordish Co. has abandoned a lease for nearly 20,000 square feet of space in the Starks Building that it originally intended for a restaurant and an expansion of its 4th Street Live entertainment hub.

Cordish signed the lease in mid-2007 for the ground-level space that for years had been partly occupied by Rodes, a men's clothing store. The 15-floor building is located on the northeast corner of Fourth Street and Muhammad Ali Boulevard.

"I think the recession got them. The tsunami has hit everybody," Mendel Hertz, one of the owners of the Starks Building, said of Cordish, a Baltimore-based company and one of the country's largest developers of urban projects. "They took a giant step backward."

Cordish had been negotiating for months with McCormick & Schmick's Seafood Restaurants of Portland, Ore., to occupy most of the space in the Starks Building.

Cordish owed nearly $50,000 in unpaid back rent for the space it had reserved in the Starks Building. Hertz said the building owners had started eviction proceedings against Cordish but recently reached a settlement by "swapping out" space elsewhere. He said Cordish is a tenant in office buildings owned by Hertz in other cities.

The main thing, Hertz said, is that the key ground-level corner space fronting on Fourth Street is now available to be marketed to other users. Hertz said the space could end up being used for retail, a restaurant or for professional offices.

The nearly 20,000 square feet of space is contained in two nearby separate locations, one of which was the Rodes store.

The Starks Building has 340,000 square feet of space, about 65 percent of which is now occupied. Hertz said that when his company bought the building 2 l/2 years ago it was only about one-third under lease.

He said about $2 million has been spent on upgrading the building.

Cordish spokeswoman Kim Damion referred questions to Mike Leonard, an executive with Hogan Real Estate, Cordish's Louisville partner in 4th Street Live.

In a statement, Leonard said McCormick & Schmick was processing a lease for the space but, put its expansion on hold because of the recession.

Cordish has pledged to build 200,000 square feet of new development as an expansion of 4th Street Live in a project called Center City on Second Street. Leonard said Cordish plans "to move ahead with our Center City expansion plans."

Metro government spokesman Chad Carlton said the city is confident Cordish eventually will make that investment. "We all understand that the global economic crisis is affecting business across America," he said.

Meanwhile, a new business, Executive-Spa, opened yesterday on the second floor of the Starks Building. The business is owned by Robert K. McAfee, a Louisville businessman, and members of his family.

McAfee said the business is leasing about 2,400 square feet of space and hours are 9 a.m. to 7 p.m. weekdays and 11 a.m. to 7 p.m. Saturday (closed Sunday).

Services include massages, facials, manicures, pedicures, and haircuts and styling. Furnishings feature a 1928 snooker table, an old barber chair and other antique furniture. McAfee said the business has an all-female staff and the spa caters primarily to men, but women clients are welcome.

He said he isn't concerned about opening amid a recession. "The worse things are, the more stressed people are and the more they want to get massages and just relax," he said

Just an update on how awfully expensive light rail systems are. As part of the Federal Financial recovery package Phoenix Arizona is planning a 3 mile extension of its system into the suburbs. The cost of 3 miles is $250,000,000! And that just includes right away and rail and station construction it does not include additional rolling stock and support facilities. Imagine what the cost of even a small system would be for Louisville!

Cordish backing out of part of its 4th Street development plans:

The Cordish Co. has abandoned a lease for nearly 20,000 square feet of space in the Starks Building that it originally intended for a restaurant and an expansion of its 4th Street Live entertainment hub.

Cordish signed the lease in mid-2007 for the ground-level space that for years had been partly occupied by Rodes, a men's clothing store. The 15-floor building is located on the northeast corner of Fourth Street and Muhammad Ali Boulevard.

"I think the recession got them. The tsunami has hit everybody," Mendel Hertz, one of the owners of the Starks Building, said of Cordish, a Baltimore-based company and one of the country's largest developers of urban projects. "They took a giant step backward."

Cordish had been negotiating for months with McCormick & Schmick's Seafood Restaurants of Portland, Ore., to occupy most of the space in the Starks Building.

Cordish owed nearly $50,000 in unpaid back rent for the space it had reserved in the Starks Building. Hertz said the building owners had started eviction proceedings against Cordish but recently reached a settlement by "swapping out" space elsewhere. He said Cordish is a tenant in office buildings owned by Hertz in other cities.

The main thing, Hertz said, is that the key ground-level corner space fronting on Fourth Street is now available to be marketed to other users. Hertz said the space could end up being used for retail, a restaurant or for professional offices.

The nearly 20,000 square feet of space is contained in two nearby separate locations, one of which was the Rodes store.

The Starks Building has 340,000 square feet of space, about 65 percent of which is now occupied. Hertz said that when his company bought the building 2 l/2 years ago it was only about one-third under lease.

He said about $2 million has been spent on upgrading the building.

Cordish spokeswoman Kim Damion referred questions to Mike Leonard, an executive with Hogan Real Estate, Cordish's Louisville partner in 4th Street Live.

In a statement, Leonard said McCormick & Schmick was processing a lease for the space but, put its expansion on hold because of the recession.

Cordish has pledged to build 200,000 square feet of new development as an expansion of 4th Street Live in a project called Center City on Second Street. Leonard said Cordish plans "to move ahead with our Center City expansion plans."

Metro government spokesman Chad Carlton said the city is confident Cordish eventually will make that investment. "We all understand that the global economic crisis is affecting business across America," he said.

Meanwhile, a new business, Executive-Spa, opened yesterday on the second floor of the Starks Building. The business is owned by Robert K. McAfee, a Louisville businessman, and members of his family.

McAfee said the business is leasing about 2,400 square feet of space and hours are 9 a.m. to 7 p.m. weekdays and 11 a.m. to 7 p.m. Saturday (closed Sunday).

Services include massages, facials, manicures, pedicures, and haircuts and styling. Furnishings feature a 1928 snooker table, an old barber chair and other antique furniture. McAfee said the business has an all-female staff and the spa caters primarily to men, but women clients are welcome.

He said he isn't concerned about opening amid a recession. "The worse things are, the more stressed people are and the more they want to get massages and just relax," he said

sucks

That corner gets a lot of foot traffic during lunch, after work, and during the summer with patrons going to and from 4thSt Live, I would imagine once the economy gets rolling again that some developer would see it as a good investment. I would think it would improve the street level activity on Muhamad Ali also. Most of the street life in downtown is focused on Main St and 4th St, it would be nice to see some other destination type development to draw people to other areas. I'm holding my breath on City Center, that could be either really great or mediocre IMO. Once U of L develops its Nucleus research park there will be thousand of new workers downtown, hopefully that will pump some life into other streets.

Sucky news about Cordish. Although another chain, McCormick's & Shmick's s a solid restaurant. I am sure it will pop up in Louisville sooner than later.

^^
I'd agree with that. I think the interest M&S had in the Starks location shows their confidence in the Louisville market and that they find downtown to be a prime location. Its a shame they won't be at that location, but they'll be somewhere DT in time. Honestly, it's a bit of good news in a way. This leaves an opportunity for a different developer to move in and keep the area from being a Cordish Disney Land. I hope something local can set up in the space.

^^ I agree. I think the more property that can be developed by local people - who have a stronger interest in the long term betterment of Louisville - the better. I think Cordish is too busy worrying about all of their other projects around the country - that they can't focus too much on Louisville.

Nice. Broken Sidewalk has gotten some great first-hand information from the developers of the mixed use project in Old Louisville.

http://brokensidewalk.com/2009/02/24/old-louisville-mixed-use-project/#more-3604

http://brokensidewalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/mastersons_11.jpg

hey eweeeze

thanks for the link, as an out of towner..i do appreciate it..

thanks again

The project looks very nice and certainly will enhance the north side of the campus as well as provide a nice transition into old Louisville. Except, there's a huge problem with it! Like everything else in the area may have forgotten about the parking situation. We all know 600 beds will yield a lot more than 150 cars. There is already a tremendous parking problem in the area and on street parking for the residents is for all intentional purposes nonexistent in the evenings and on weekends.

UofL, the area residents and Metro Gov't need to develop a solution for this problem instead of just adding to it with developments like this. Zoning and planning should staunchly refuse to allow anything to be built that doesn't provide adequate parking for the residents. This situation is hurting the image and marketability of old Louisville and needs to be resolved now rather than later.

That project looks great for the area, if only they would do away with the strip mall across the street. Parking on the north side of campus is horrible. I think they need to turn the business school lot into a parking garage, and there are a few areas on 4th street that could hold a garage. The trick would be to provide adequate parking without creating huge surface lots.

Nice project. Maybe instead of trying to make the developer provide parking for everyone - they could come up with some other plans ---- like having a car sharing program there, promoting more bicycle use, maybe keep the extra cars at a remote site. Looks like a great, walkable area - and with less car parking - it will help it stay that way -- and keep the residents healthier by encouraging them to walk more - and not drive their cars everywhere. Again - nice project.

......The trick would be to provide adequate parking without creating huge surface lots. You are certainly correct on this count. The additional parking either needs to be underground (best possible solution) or at least above grade ramp garages that are designed to blend into the surrounding environment.
Nice project. Maybe instead of trying to make the developer provide parking for everyone - they could come up with some other plans ---- like having a car sharing program there, promoting more bicycle use, maybe keep the extra cars at a remote site. Looks like a great, walkable area - and with less car parking - it will help it stay that way -- and keep the residents healthier by encouraging them to walk more - and not drive their cars everywhere. Again - nice project. In an idealistic world you are correct but in reality "it ain't going to happen"! With a few exceptions (New York City, Chicago, etc.) Americans are dedicated to their cars and any solution that doesn't acknowledge that is not going to succeed. At the present time, UofL students get free transportation on TARC yet how many of them give up their cars or even use them irregularly? The answer is few if any. Developers need to start designing based on reality and gov't needs to ensure adequate parking and other amenities are provided for each development before approving it.

Have you been to Ann Arbor, Michigan? This isn't something that is limited to the "big cities." Ann Arbor has successfully used form-based zoning to allow developers to build to a) a maximum density that is allowed for that neighborhood, and b) remove wasteful parking spaces. Centralized parking structures contain cars for the residents, if they so choose to use it.

--

First residents moving into downtown condos (http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20090225/NEWS01/902250405/)
Residents moving into new homes
By Sheldon S. Shafer, Courier-Journal.com, February 25, 2009

Residents have begun moving into the new Fleur de Lis condominium development at Main and Preston streets across from Louisville Slugger Field.

The condo complex is one of the largest housing developments in downtown Louisville recently, and one of the few major center-city projects whose construction has persisted during the recession.

"We had the funds, and we were very fortunate," said partner Henry Potter, the architect whose firm designed the $27 million project.

So far, about 35 of 83 units have been secured by sales contract, and four owners have already moved into the five-story structure.

Zach McClave and his wife, Lindsey, both young professionals who work downtown, left Crescent Hill for their new Fleur de Lis home in late January. East Main Street "is a great neighborhood. We are across the street from the ballpark, and one of the best urban parks in the United States is practically our front yard," he said, referring to Waterfront Park.

Jeremy Murrell and his fiancée, Courtney Sandora, recently moved to their condo from Jeffersonville, Ind. Both are in their 30s and work downtown.

Murrell said he likes being close to work and being able to walk to many amenities. He said he appreciates the condo's "open floor plan and having a lot of natural light. I love the underground parking and the security is great."

Ground was broken for Fleur de Lis in August 2006, two years after the partners unveiled their plans. Some initial delays were related mainly to waiting for the fluctuating price of materials, chiefly steel, to stabilize and the time it took to arrange financing, the partners said.

The condos replace a string of dilapidated industrial buildings that were on land the city acquired in the early '90s for Slugger Field. The city bought the property from the Brinly-Hardy Co. Preservationists fought to save the old buildings, but the partners said they were beyond salvation and razed them.

As a concession, the partners have incorporated remnants of the original Brinly-Hardy main office, including bricks and the company name over the door, into a first-floor lobby area.

Mayor Jerry Abramson said Fleur de Lis is "another stellar housing development for downtown. It blends unique architecture with a great location on Main Street."

The project's exterior materials include brick, stone, aluminum and blue-tinted glass. Construction is substantially complete, Potter said. Fountains, reflecting pools and landscaping in two interior courtyards will be finished in March.

An exercise room, the lobby, a party room, a roof terrace and a 156-space basement garage are done. About 20,000 square feet of ground-level commercial space has drawn lots of interest, Potter said.

The condos have from 1,100 to around 3,000 square feet of space and range in price from $250,000 to around $620,000. The units have wood floors, granite countertops, stainless steel appliances, hot tubs, balconies, 10-foot ceilings, bay windows, security systems, underground parking spaces and optional fireplaces.

Most rooms overlook one of two interior courtyards, and the river is in view from many of the condos on the upper floors.

Potter said buyers, including those who secured units via contracts, include young professionals, middle-aged empty nesters and retired couples. Many work in the nearby medical center.

Potter said that although the recession might slow sales, the project's "location is a big plus" -- a stone's throw from Slugger Field, Waterfront Park, restaurants and galleries. His partners in Fleur de Lis Development LLC are investors Paul Keith, Dale Boden, Phil Scherer and David Bowen.

Fleur de Lis is only 83 untis? I had thought it was closer to 200! Still great news all the same.

In an idealistic world you are correct but in reality "it ain't going to happen"! With a few exceptions (New York City, Chicago, etc.) Americans are dedicated to their cars and any solution that doesn't acknowledge that is not going to succeed. At the present time, UofL students get free transportation on TARC yet how many of them give up their cars or even use them irregularly? The answer is few if any. Developers need to start designing based on reality and gov't needs to ensure adequate parking and other amenities are provided for each development before approving it.

One solution could be to have students living on campus park at Papa Johns. There's an insane amount of parking space that is only used for 6 home games a year, the only problem would be on game days they kick students out to the fair grounds (which I hated). Maybe they could build a huge garage near Papa Johns with the capacity for students and people attending the games. The shuttle already goes on this route daily so students could take a quick ride down to their cars when needed. Commuter student could still use the lots near campus, which in my opinion would make more sense as they HAVE to drive in order to get to class, residents can just walk. With more developments like the one just announced, students could walk to coffee shops and restaurant, a few blocks from their dorms. I would have to think that such developments that create a "univesity city" would attract students. I would love to see that strip mall demolished for something more urban, filling in the whole block with retail and housing.

Just an idea, as a commuter student, I had a LOT of time to think about the university's parking problem while at UofL.

It's good to see one of our condo projects downtown completed in time such as these. There are actually several two story condos within the project which would make the condo count smaller. They're actually really nice, I wouldn't mind having one, if only I could afford it .

Capital Plaza news from broken sidewalk!!


Development Watch: Capital Plaza Looks Ahead To 2012

It seems like all the mega-projects that created Louisville’s unprecedented development buzz in the last few years have been hibernating for some time. One of the most exciting projects, Capital Plaza, still plans to make an addition to the River City skyline, as early as the end of this year. That all depends on the economy, though. Currently, the 25-story office tower proposed just over a year ago by Barrister Commercial Group is officially on hold, but if the markets improve, the 380 foot tall tower could be opening its doors sometime in 2012.


The tower is planned for the surface level parking lot on Market Street between Sixth and Seventh Streets and will include 25,000 square feet of sidewalk retail space, 500,000 square feet of Class-A office space, and 1,600 parking spots. Some of those spots will be underground to serve government parking that was displaced by the project and the rest will be in a 6-7 story garage above the retail space. Barrister has continued to discuss purchasing the site from the city with Bruce Traughber of the Metro Economic Development Cabinet.




The developers also hope to turn Capital Plaza into Louisville’s tallest green building. In an effort to receive LEED certification for the project, a landscaped plaza with be situated above the garage on the 7th or 8th floor; the plaza will help to handle rainwater runoff. Other ‘green’ systems are also being explored such as wastewater filtration. Baker Barrios Architects of Atlanta have been brought on board for the design.


Most of the towers proposed in and around downtown recently have been tied to the Humana request for office space and are dependent on utilizing the company as a tenant for their projects to be fully realized. Barrister has been searching for tenants other than Humana for their building and have found interested parties that make the project independent of the Humana office space request. An unnamed corporation from the Northeast is still interested in moving its headquarters into the building once the economy improves and Mike Brown at Barrister says the goal of Capital Plaza is to bring a new corporate headquarters to the city. Even with a major tenant, construction would still hinge upon finding 40-50% occupancy for the building.


We were hesitant to sign on to the City Hall parking lot site at first, as we wondered if it might be better used to expand City Hall. After a year, though, we believe this site is an excellent choice for the building. Louisville is lucky to have a compact and well-organized civic center one block south and we now think growth of the civic center should be focused to the southwest of Jefferson Square, not the north. It’s all in the name, too. Market Street should be a commercial street, and nothing says that like Capital Plaza. Putting our City Hall on Market would send out the wrong message, like putting our government up for sale. The high-quality design of this building also helps, too. A well-detailed and massive structure on one of downtown’s widest streets will definitely help this stretch of downtown feel more urban and contribute to the westward growth already happening around West Main Street and the Glassworks.


If it’s finished before Museum Plaza, the Capital Plaza will check in at Kentucky’s 6th tallest building. It’s definitely good news that Barrister hasn’t tied themselves to the Humana office space bandwagon, as it means not only is Capital Plaza more likely to be built sooner, but another tower could take a nod from Humana sometime in the future.

That's great news, a little glimpse of hope in some trying times for the city. I'm really excited about the company wanting to move it's headquarters here, not only a new building but new jobs. Lets keep our fingers crossed.

The parking situation on the north side of campus can easily be solved. All they need to do is purchase (or have a developer do it-even easier) the lot that contains the shopping center with Gray's Books. Then, turn the entire block (including surface parking UofL already owns) into a 6 story parkign garage with street level retail all the way around and wide sidewalks.

The building would look good, would provide a lot more entertainment, similar to the Masterson's project, get rid of an ugly strip center, get rid of ugly surface parking and provide about 2,000 parks (I've measured it, the number is accurate).

Then replace the rest of the surface parking north and south of Kurz Hall with dorms similar to Johnson Hall.

pretty generic article but at least they mention some projects that we haven't heard anything about since they were announced.

Blue says he’s talking to possible office tenant for Iron QuarterBusiness First of Louisville - by John R. Karman III Staff Writer


Little has been said publicly in recent months about plans for Iron Quarter, a potential $50 million retail and office project planned for the 100 block of West Main Street.

No visible work has taken place on the site, which is home to mostly derelict buildings, since the development was proposed two years ago.

But last night, developer Todd Blue, chairman and CEO of Cobalt Ventures LLC, said that plans for the project aren’t dead, despite the poor economy.

In fact, he said he is in talks with a large office tenant that could anchor the development and allow work on Iron Quarter to move forward.

Blue didn’t name the potential tenant and gave no timetable as to when any decisions would be made. He also didn’t say what the likelihood might be of the possible tenant committing to the project.

If the company does not sign a lease, Blue said, he would “re-evaluate” the project.

Guthrie receives Forum’s top award
Blue made his comments during the 2009 annual dinner meeting of the Louisville Forum, which was held Feb. 26 downtown at The Jefferson Club.

He was part of a four-person panel, moderated by former Louisville Mayor David Armstrong, that discussed the state of downtown development, given the poor state of the economy.

The event also featured the presentation of the 2009 Louisville Forum Fleur-de-lis Award to Jack Guthrie, chairman and founder of Guthrie/Mayes Public Relations.

Blue told the crowd that Louisville has been victimized by forces in the national and international economies that are stifling development in many parts of the country.

“A bad economy doesn’t discriminate,” he said.

Still, Blue had some words of optimism during the event, noting that, despite the economy, he has sold 18 of 42 units at his Mercantile Gallery Lofts complex on East Market Street.

“We can make it through as a community, and we can make it through as a country,” Blue told the Louisville Forum gathering.

Weyland sees interest in lofts project
Other speakers at the forum event included David Karem, executive director of the Waterfront Development Corp.; Mike Leonard, chief operating officer of Hogan Real Estate, a partner to The Cordish Co. in the creation of Fourth Street Live; and developer and architect Bill Weyland, principal of City Properties Group LLC.

Karem told the crowd that Waterfront Park will hold a June 4 event where an Abraham Lincoln sculpture created by Louisville artist Ed Hamilton will be unveiled. The event also will mark the first time all three phases of the park will be open and connected, Karem said.

Leonard said that the Baltimore-based Cordish Co. remains “very bullish” on Louisville due to continued sales growth at Fourth Street Live. The developer is looking forward to expanding the entertainment concept through its nearby Center City project, he added.

Leonard didn’t address a timetable for Center City nor did he talk about Cordish’s recent decision to drop plans to develop space on the first floor of the downtown Starks Building, as reported in the Feb. 20 print edition of Business First .

Weyland, who is building a 12-story downtown office tower for Zirmed Inc., said he soon will have more news of his efforts at Liberty Green, a residential development east of downtown.

He said he also is getting “favorable reviews” from banks interested in his Whiskey Row Lofts project, which is planned for property adjacent to the city’s coming downtown arena.

“Things are continuing to happen,” Weyland said. “There are still banks lending money.”

"Leonard said that the Baltimore-based Cordish Co. remains “very bullish” on Louisville due to continued sales growth at Fourth Street Live."

Is this true? I had heard that sales weren't growing much at all at Fourth Street Live. What do you locals think? Are things going ok? What do you think is needed to make sure things remain stable or growing? The opening of the Arena? More conventions? More downtown residential? All of the above?

Everything Blue touches has either failed or yet to turn a profit. He has yet to "develop" a successful real estate project, meaning debt STABILIZED. Yet, he is part of a panel advising city business leaders w/ Armstrong??????

Typical spin is "in discussions"...means - plans have been rolled up and put on the shelf, PERIOD. It is my Standard operating procedure. So don't take anything "positive" or "hopeful" out of those kinds of remarks - it is spin, nothing more nothing less - to divert. Part of the game.

Developers propose many things before one breaks ground, stabilizes and permenant debt is acquired. It is of no value to any consumer, to design a gadget, open a plant, produce gadgets, sell for a loss and then divest and close said plant. Start producing gadgets at a profit - then you've done something.That is a success and that is who they should be listening to.

"Leonard said that the Baltimore-based Cordish Co. remains “very bullish” on Louisville due to continued sales growth at Fourth Street Live."

Is this true? I had heard that sales weren't growing much at all at Fourth Street Live. What do you locals think? Are things going ok? What do you think is needed to make sure things remain stable or growing? The opening of the Arena? More conventions? More downtown residential? All of the above?

Bullish - means "keep smiling fellas the cameras are on" - 4th is subsidized by the city (tax payers) while Cordish attempts to weather the storm. Retail vacancies are abundant from Broadway to Market and could expect more over the next 18 months. Consumer credit bailout is next followed by retailers woes then another modest housing drop by loss of credit cards - then we've seen bottom and will rebound..or the correction should be complete. 18months - 2 yrs.

Conventions always good but if you want downtown to thrive - like others know here I'm always going to preach - give me "businesses" and everything else will take care of itself.

In the MP thread - brokensidewalk.com site was mentioned and it is a good site.

picked up this story:
http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20090303/NEWS01/903030381/1008/ARCHIVES

Now what does it mean from my perspective?

Jury is out - doesn't pass the smell test. I suspect why they are doing this but it is complicated/lengthy to explain. Doesn't look good when your landlord has become your sole tenant in-facto and the city has subsidized a "special deal" for one party. Getting very interesting. First, proposed Starks anchor out, Traughbor public comment is city is not involved in dispute and then this....

I thought Lucky Strike was going through renovations? The issue with it was that your average bowling patron does not like paying the high prices they were charging for a game of bowling, on the other hand those in the convention crowds, and young professionals may be willing to shell it out. The new place seems like it will be more of an upscale sports bar, which could work in my opinion. I don't think this really says that things are bad at Fourth Street, they still get a lot of visitors, and the restaurants are always full at lunch and right after work, not to mention the concerts and special events that go on. Conspiracy theories aside, I think the bottom line is that when you're in the entertainment business you have to constantly evolve to survive. There are very few clubs and bars that have been the same, most of those are your smaller neighborhood hangouts. The good thing is that once something leaves Cordish immediately replaces it. One thing is for sure, whether you like the development or not, 4th Street live has brought back a great deal of life to downtown, it has been as instrumental at that as waterfront park. So what if the bars change every few years, as long as it brings people downtown.

Some of those comments in the article are downright pathethic.

"gayor"????

In the MP thread - brokensidewalk.com site was mentioned and it is a good site.

picked up this story:
http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20090303/NEWS01/903030381/1008/ARCHIVES

Now what does it mean from my perspective?

Jury is out - doesn't pass the smell test. I suspect why they are doing this but it is complicated/lengthy to explain. Doesn't look good when your landlord has become your sole tenant in-facto and the city has subsidized a "special deal" for one party. Getting very interesting. First, proposed Starks anchor out, Traughbor public comment is city is not involved in dispute and then this....

I think, if you read into it, that it says that Lucky Strike got the boot so Cordish could open their own concept. They have stated several times that 4th St. is doing well, it had 4.8 million visitors!!! It is usually packed.....The landlord for Lucky Strike wouldn't comment and Corish is opening a new concept...their test for the concept, that also has bowling lanes, in the same space.

I think Cordish wanted to open this concept, then looked at their properties and the leases to see where they had the best shot to get a good space.

I think this concept will do real well there. That is one thing 4th St. is missing, a place to sit at a bar/table and just chill and watch a few games.

I think, if you read into it, that it says that Lucky Strike got the boot so Cordish could open their own concept. They have stated several times that 4th St. is doing well, it had 4.8 million visitors!!! It is usually packed.....The landlord for Lucky Strike wouldn't comment and Corish is opening a new concept...their test for the concept, that also has bowling lanes, in the same space.

I think Cordish wanted to open this concept, then looked at their properties and the leases to see where they had the best shot to get a good space.

I think this concept will do real well there. That is one thing 4th St. is missing, a place to sit at a bar/table and just chill and watch a few games.

Landlords don't boot tenants, they are prohibited from doing so if the term hasn't expired.

define visitor - You don't honestly believe 4th street bars/restaurants attracted in one fiscal year 5 times the population of the statistical metropolitan area do you, the entire city? I put the number at 350,000-250,000 at best. Do the math 356 days (x) 1000 people is 365,000. Considering 1000/day for every day of the year. Now consider the fallout, receipts and vacancies. No way there were 13,000 or 4.8M people every day....don't drink the koolaid.

They leased it to themselves because there wasn't any activity in the pipeline. Rather than the vacancy creating further disconnect w/in the contiguous space they are building out a bar/social club as I suspect there is no or little capital cost and no or little rent.
Let me be very clear, I would give them high-marks if they were doing this through conventional finance with out the assistance of taxpayer dollars subsidizing the build-out and the sell of liquor. Fact is it is your tax dollars to create "environment" and is this a sustainable and beneficial environment?

I suspect I am yet again in the minority on this issue.

Redeveloper, what's wrong man? You seem like a very sad person. Go down and watch the construction at the arena site or something, that always seems to cheer people up.

I have doubts on the validity of 4.8 million visitors, for the sheer fact that they could be counting the number of drinks sold. As they do not ticket or somehow record your entry into Lucky Strike, there is no accurate count to reach "4.8 million." I suspect that they are using their point-of-sale software to calculate the number of sales or items sold and dispensed.

Whether or not you have a dog in this fight, check out the new video on the 8664 website.
http://www.8664.org/

That video is really eye catching, I would love for the waterfront to look that green, and if only there was that much development in Shippingport / Portland. I personally think they should build the east end bridge first, study the traffic flow over the course of three years or so, then figure out whether they should build another downtown. If 86ing 64 is possible like they say, I am all for it, but I also understand we need good traffic flow, hopefully the government might make the best choice on this one....

^^ You certainly certainly have a lot more faith in our local governments than everyone else does. If you trust them to make the right decision I'm afraid I'm afraid you'll be sorely mistaken. And you can forget about them making any decisions in a timely manner, the east end bridge should already be completed and it's not even started. It's going slower than Freedom Tower and everyone thinks that's going too slow.

Wrong again. The local government has nothing to do with the Ohio River Bridges Project, which includes the East End Bridge and Tunnel (Interstate 265), the Downtown Bridge Dualization Project (Interstate 65) and the Kennedy Interchange reconstruction. The Kentucky Transportation Cabinet is coordinating most of the development of the project.

I have penned two articles regarding the project --
http://bridgestunnels.com/index.php?catid=113
http://bridgestunnels.com/index.php?catid=108

It's unfair to blame the slow development of the project on Louisville when the project regards federal interstate highways. When material costs have escalated way beyond what the original proposal called for -- now up to near $4 billion that the state has no control over, the highway is either delayed or tolled. The latter is an option that is very, very close to happening.

Wrong again. The local government has nothing to do with the Ohio River Bridges Project, which includes the East End Bridge and Tunnel (Interstate 265), the Downtown Bridge Dualization Project (Interstate 65) and the Kennedy Interchange reconstruction. The Kentucky Transportation Cabinet is coordinating most of the development of the project.
If you lived in Louisville you would know how the local politics affected the project. So much time was lost with bickering between local politicians, environmental groups and other special interests during the planning stages that the bridge(s) would be already completed if it hadn't occurred. There were multiple proposals on where to put the east end bridge even though the plan to connect I-265 had been in place since those sections of highway were built. Prospect argued that they didn't "want the bridge in their backyard" and historians argue for the preservation of a single private homestead so much the plan was revised to include a tunnel with increased the costs significantly. So please don't tell me the local area had no affect on the project! :ohno:
It's unfair to blame the slow development of the project on Louisville when the project regards federal interstate highways. When material costs have escalated way beyond what the original proposal called for -- now up to near $4 billion that the state has no control over, the highway is either delayed or tolled. The latter is an option that is very, very close to happening.
If the locally generated delays I mentioned above hadn't occurred the project would have started much quicker, well before the spikes in material costs. This project (especially in the east end bridge) has been in the long term plan "forever" but local politicians and activists did not start opposing it until they realized it was actually going to happen! While I agree there may not be a way to significantly lower the costs of the project now (except maybe getting rid of the stupid tunnel) Louisville is not ready for a toll road and if a toll is imposed his road will not be used by many people.

For an example of this look at the "Southern Connector" in Greenville South Carolina. This extension of I-385 was supposed to be a major relief to local traffic. In order to build it faster a private company built it in conjunction with the state with tolls imposed to pay back the costs. Instead the road is losing large sums of money because people refuse to pay the tolls! The same thing will happen in Louisville if tolls are imposed.

Landlords don't boot tenants, they are prohibited from doing so if the term hasn't expired.

define visitor - You don't honestly believe 4th street bars/restaurants attracted in one fiscal year 5 times the population of the statistical metropolitan area do you, the entire city? I put the number at 350,000-250,000 at best. Do the math 356 days (x) 1000 people is 365,000. Considering 1000/day for every day of the year. Now consider the fallout, receipts and vacancies. No way there were 13,000 or 4.8M people every day....don't drink the koolaid.

They leased it to themselves because there wasn't any activity in the pipeline. Rather than the vacancy creating further disconnect w/in the contiguous space they are building out a bar/social club as I suspect there is no or little capital cost and no or little rent.
Let me be very clear, I would give them high-marks if they were doing this through conventional finance with out the assistance of taxpayer dollars subsidizing the build-out and the sell of liquor. Fact is it is your tax dollars to create "environment" and is this a sustainable and beneficial environment?

I suspect I am yet again in the minority on this issue.

Yes they can and do. Trust me....

Cordish has several entities across the country. They may not have been able to boot them, according to their lease here, but they could ask them to leave in return for a favorable situation somewhere else.

I believe their number a lot more than yours. 1,000 people a day? They get more than that through there for lunch. Think about how many people simply walk through the complex. I'm sure they are using that number. Is that potentially misleading, sure, but I guarantee you there are more than 1,000 people in there every lunch and dinner, who are actually spending money.

They don't actually count everyone. In commercial Real Estate, there are several formulas to estimate traffic, depending on what you are monitoring and when. You take a count over a certain period of time and multiply it by the multiplier, which is dependent on time of day, what type of location, etc...

And yes, it is a sustainable and very enjoyable environment.

Hell, I'm going there tonight and will probably drop in excess of $100 that I wouldn't be spending if I didn't go. I'll also probably wind up dropping another $100 on a hotel that, again, I wouldn't be spending if I didn't go there.

If you lived in Louisville you would know how the local politics affected the project. So much time was lost with bickering between local politicians, environmental groups and other special interests during the planning stages that the bridge(s) would be already completed if it hadn't occurred. There were multiple proposals on where to put the east end bridge even though the plan to connect I-265 had been in place since those sections of highway were built. Prospect argued that they didn't "want the bridge in their backyard" and historians argue for the preservation of a single private homestead so much the plan was revised to include a tunnel with increased the costs significantly. So please don't tell me the local area had no affect on the project! :ohno:

If the locally generated delays I mentioned above hadn't occurred the project would have started much quicker, well before the spikes in material costs. This project (especially in the east end bridge) has been in the long term plan "forever" but local politicians and activists did not start opposing it until they realized it was actually going to happen! While I agree there may not be a way to significantly lower the costs of the project now (except maybe getting rid of the stupid tunnel) Louisville is not ready for a toll road and if a toll is imposed his road will not be used by many people.

For an example of this look at the "Southern Connector" in Greenville South Carolina. This extension of I-385 was supposed to be a major relief to local traffic. In order to build it faster a private company built it in conjunction with the state with tolls imposed to pay back the costs. Instead the road is losing large sums of money because people refuse to pay the tolls! The same thing will happen in Louisville if tolls are imposed.

Actually, I interned for the KYTC and was able to receive a lot of knowledge and was involved in some of the dealings with the Ohio River Bridges Project, especially with the preliminary designs and right-of-way acquisitions. Unlike Indiana, Kentucky did not purchase right-of-way past the planned U.S. Route 42 interchange, which should be faulted to the state. The highway was designed many, many years prior and it was assumed that no eastern highway span would be needed for 40 years at the least. They were off by only about 20 years.

I understand and am well versed in the dealings with the tunnel that dives under one historic estate. Could have this been mitigated? Perhaps. If we had constructed the approach to the bridge 40 years prior, the environmental and design approaches would have been much easier. The historic estate would have been demolished or relocated; the land subdivided. Today, though, that is an entirely different story, for better or for worse.

It is correct in stating that these regulations are for the benefit of the environment and the surrounding envrions. Highways no longer destroy dozens upon dozens of blocks in an urbanized area; they no longer cut through sensitive wildernesses or national forests -- the latter, which is still possible but would be delayed in years of mitigation processes and court proceedings. We no longer blast through acid rock and then try to mitigate the measures... oh wait, yes we still do (I'm looking at you, Interstate 99 in Pennsylvania and Fontana Lake North Drive).

Is this the fault of the local government? No. They could do little about the situation. The estate has been listed on the federal National Register of Historic Places, and early mitigation reports concluded that the property would lose its designation if the property was relocated. It's not just the house, but the grounds, that is driving its listing on the Register.

I've stated it again, and will state it here: I wholly believe in the feasibility documents conducted by KYTC that vouch that a tolled facility in its present state is viable. I hold a professional opinion that if Interstate 64 was removed from Louisville's waterfront, per the 8664 proposal, and that a ramp from Interstate 64 WB to Interstate 65 NB was removed, then traffic would be forced to use Interstate 265's northern crossing. Using Interstate 264 is an alternative, but it frequently congests and is at a level-of-service that is unacceptable for most of the day. Interstate 265 would make the trip around Louisville easy and quick; only 25 minutes with the implementation of high-speed toll lanes.

Yes, KYTC is listening in on the 8664 comments, and is taking them seriously.

From what I've read the true historic value of the home is questionable. It was only put on the historic register when talk about the project started prior to that no mention had been made of its historic value. The people who pushed for it to be on the historic register are the same people who oppose the bridge being in prospect and they felt this declaration may help their cause. Unfortunately all it did was delay the project and raise the cost.

If tolls are placed on a new bridge the traffic on the Waterston from I-64 West will become normal because everyone will use that route to avoid the tolls.

Incorrect.

* Drumanard, added 1992 - District - #88002654
* Also known as Mrs. A. M. Watson House;Strater House;See Also: Fitzhugh Hou
* 6401 Wolf Pen Branch Rd., Louisville
* Historic Significance: Architecture/Engineering
* Architect, builder, or engineer: Et al., Olmsted Associates
* Architectural Style: Tudor Revival
* Area of Significance: Landscape Architecture, Architecture
* Period of Significance: 1925-1949, 1950-1974
* Owner: Private
* Historic Function: Domestic, Landscape, Transportation
* Historic Sub-function: Forest, Garden, Natural Feature, Pedestrian Related, Secondary Structure, Single Dwelling, Unoccupied Land
* Current Function: Domestic, Landscape, Transportation
* Current Sub-function: Forest, Garden, Natural Feature, Pedestrian Related, Secondary Structure, Single Dwelling, Unoccupied Land

You should read up on the efforts by the Historic Preservation Advisory Teams to preserve this property and others, which involve organizations and cities from two states (not just Louisville) --
http://www.kyinbridges.com/historic-environmental/historic-preservation-advisory.aspx

Of course, one could argue that the proposed bridge of 30-some years led to the estate's approval. That would be false. Applications put forth to the Trust take years of paperwork and rubberstamping to even be considered, and can be very costly. By the time the house was even considered a historic landmark, the highway and bridge was considered dead-in-the-water, veiled as too costly and unnecessary as Interstate 64 was handling traffic adequately. That's not the case today.

If a house has a strong probability to be demolished, then it is most likely a candidate to be dropped from the Trust's inclusion.

Sounds like a pretty cool event

Glass-art convention coming to Louisville
By Sheldon S. Shafer • sshafer@courier-journal.com • March 5, 2009

Louisville will be the international center for glass art in June 2010 when the Glass Art Society has its annual convention here.

Approximately 2,000 glass artists and collectors from around the world are expected to attend the convention June 10-12, 2010, a year that will be the 40th anniversary of the founding of the Seattle-based society.


During the convention, some of the world’s leading glass artists will demonstrate their craft, including glass-blowing techniques, and show their work.


And some of the artists’ work will be left in Louisville to be put on permanent display, said Chris Poynter, spokesman for Mayor Jerry Abramson.


The society’s decision to meet in Louisville “is a huge feather in Louisville’s hat,” said Ken von Roenn Jr., a Louisville glass artist and one of about 3,500 glass artists and collectors who are members of the society.


The convention “brings together the most serious of glass artists from all over the world,” he said.


The society held its convention last year in Portland, Ore., and will meet this summer in Corning, N.Y.


Abramson will announce the society’s decision to meet in Louisville at a news conference Friday this (fri) afternoon at the University of Louisville Cressman Center for the Visual Arts at First and Main streets.


“The convention will bring an international spotlight on our growing glass-art culture,” Abramson said in remarks prepared for the news conference.


Pam Koss, executive director of the society, said in an interview that the group’s board recently chose Louisville as its 2010 meeting site over several possible locations in England.


She said Louisville “has a blossoming glass-art scene, with wonderful facilities,” including the Cressman Center studios, Glassworks and galleries that feature glass art that are located in the East Main-Market corridor.


Mary Lou Northern, Abramson’s senior adviser for cultural affairs, said Glassworks, a housing-office-artist studio development at Market and Ninth streets that opened in 2001, “made glass art a big deal — in terms of economic development and in terms of the public understanding what glass art is.”


Poynter said several gallery and studio owners have invested heavily in developing facilities that display and sell glass art, chiefly in eastern downtown.


The Louisville Convention & Visitors Bureau and a local committee of glass artists helped recruit the convention. The bureau estimates the convention will pump at least $800,000 into the local economy, mainly for restaurants and hotels.


In addition to exhibits and demonstrations, the convention will include seminars and lectures for society members. The convention will be based at the Louisville Downtown Marriott Hotel.


The convention “is not so big as far as numbers are concerned, compared with some of our other conventions,” Poynter said. “But it will bring a lot of international artists to Louisville, and they’re coming because of our growing glass-art culture.”

Seicer your killin em. It's nice to see people on here who actually know what they are talking about. While I understand the short comings of local government, I do have more faith in them than say state government. Actually I think most of the cities problems can be attributed one way or another to the state. My hope for this is that enough people rally behind this idea that it forces government to take a serious look at it.

^^ Just wondering but how do you think most of Louisville's problems are caused by the state? Is it because the state passed a law allowing metro gov't which certainly has been nothing to help Louisville or do you think it's something else. I personally think Louisville (particularly Mayor Abramson) have been enough to screw up Louisville without requiring help from the state.

Developers haven't thrown in the towel yet. Story from broken sidewalk.

Museum Plaza Watch: ‘Trust Us, This Thing’s Getting Built’
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Craig Greenberg went before Metro Council today to answer the tough questions about the state of the Museum Plaza development. We didn’t have a chance to sit in on the Q & A but did read over a letter Greenberg sent to Metro Council about the project. The gist of the meeting probably goes something like, “Financial meltdown. We’re doing our best. We’re ready to go. Economic crisis. We’re going to get this thing built. Credit crunch.” More realistically, Craig is trying to reassure Metro Council that matters are under control and the project will move forward as the economy improves.

Life’s not easy for a mega-project in these trying economic times. That giant spire that Santiago Calatrava designed in Chicago is just a hole in the ground and going nowhere fast, Dubai is in meltdown mode, and even the new World Trade Center is being held up every other day or so. Louisville is not unique by having a delayed mega-project. What is unique are a group of developers so dedicated to the city. And with $47 million already invested in the project so far, including $1.2 million to purchase property not owned by the city and about $14 million more to bury some power lines, the group can’t just walk away from an already substantial development.

So far, 20 permits and approvals to get started have already been acquired for the project, the Westin hotel franchise is still ready to go, and the developers are good for the money. They were even forced to bear all in a confidential letter demonstrating “Evidence of Net Worth” and their ability to personally meet the financial obligations. Greenberg reassures the Council as well that no city funds have been used so far in the project, and won’t until a complete financing package has been obtained.

And so far, the plans and design for the building haven’t changed. Greenberg’s letter to Metro Council explains that “the architectural and construction documents for Museum Plaza are to build a building and infrastructure that is the same as has been shown in renderings… over the past two years.” And the construction documents are done. Waiting. Sitting in a back office somewhere biding their time until financing rolls in. That’s them in the photo above.

Despite a barrage of concerns and worries from Metro Council, the developers are still showing no sign of breaking. While an anxious public keeps fingers crossed or pointing fingers poised, the pressure must be great for the four who have already put so much at stake. Here’s the optimism Greenberg and the rest of the development group still maintain for Museum Plaza:

“Laura Lee Brown, Steve Wilson, Steve Poe, myself and the entire Museum Plaza development team remain as committed as ever to building this important community project. It is too important not to build. Museum Plaza will not only energize and improve West Main Street, Downtown Louisville, and our entire community, but serve as a symbol of our community and state’s ability to rebound from these challenging times stronger than ever.

“Museum Plaza will be under construction within 30 days of closing our financing, building $150 million of infrastructure and having an economic impact of over $1 billion during our construction period. Over 4,500 different people will help build Museum Plaza, earning prevailing wages. Over 600 people will work on the site every day during its peak construction period. And, over 1,500 people will have permanent good jobs in the building upon its completion. Museum Plaza will quickly and forcefully stimulate Kentucky’s economy, while improving it and its image in the process.”
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Saturday, Mar. 07, 2009Comments (8) | Recommend (3)

By Tom Eblen - HERALD-LEADER COLUMNIST Just a few years ago, two of America's most downtrodden Main Streets were those in Los Angeles and Louisville. Their once-grand buildings had been abandoned or mangled. Vagrants wandered the streets.

Many people in those cities — like those in Lexington who cheered demolition of the old buildings on the block of our Main Street where CentrePointe is planned — thought the only hope was to bulldoze and start over.

Louisville and Los Angeles now have very different stories to tell about their Main Streets. At a symposium last week sponsored by the University of Kentucky College of Design, those stories were told by the architect/developers whose innovation and determination made them happen.

Tom Gilmore of Gilmore Associates is the force behind what is now known as the Old Bank District — three 100-year-old buildings in downtown Los Angeles that have been converted into 230 lofts surrounded by a neighborhood of restaurants, shops stores and cafés. He also saved a historic downtown cathedral the Catholic Church wanted to tear down. It has become a popular concert and event venue that is paying for the restoration.

Bill Weyland, managing director of CITY Properties Group, led the renaissance of Louisville's West Main, where he built the Louisville Slugger museum and baseball bat factory and the Glassworks complex of art studios, offices and lofts. He also restored the abandoned Henry Clay Hotel building on South Third Street into a popular complex of lofts, shops, restaurants, theaters and event space. He has several other projects under way.

At the heart of both stories was the vision each man had for restoring beautiful old buildings for new uses, and the tenacity it took to convince bankers, city officials, Realtors and bureaucrats that it could be done profitably.

The developers had many great war stories, but my favorite came from Weyland.

He had bought an old building that he thought had potential for something, but he didn't know what. Then he read that Hillerich & Bradsby was looking to modernize its Slugger factory in southern Indiana and build a tourist attraction. Weyland pitched his building, but Slugger executives wanted visibility from Interstate 64.

To get interstate visibility from a downtown site, Weyland's company proposed creating a 120-foot tall baseball bat to lean against the building. Slugger executives loved the idea, but city bureaucrats were aghast.

A huge bat would violate Louisville's restrictive sign ordinance, and the trademark Hillerich & Bradsby brand disqualified it from being considered public art. But Weyland wouldn't give up. If city officials wanted to bring Louisville Slugger back to Louisville, they had to find a solution, he said.

Finally, a code enforcement officer asked Weyland if it would be possible to vent plumbing up through the bat. Weyland was puzzled. "The guy then pointed out that there is nothing in the Kentucky building code that restricts the shape of a plumbing vent," he said. Problem solved, new Louisville landmark created.

The American Planning Association last year named West Main Street one of "America's 10 Great Streets."

What can Lexington learn from these examples, and many similar ones elsewhere? Weyland and Gilmore offered these thoughts:

Downtown historic preservation can't be just about preserving the past or creating museums; it must be about adapting the best of the past to the economy of the present and future.

"It's a touchy subject in the preservation community, because the first word in 'adaptive reuse' is 'adaptive'," Gilmore said. "You can't just save old buildings; you have to find ways to get people into them."

Old buildings are often worth reusing because they were built to last and are more structurally sound than they look. They have craftsmanship that can't be replicated, and they convey a sense of a city's history and culture. Still, some buildings must occasionally be sacrificed to save more significant structures around them.

Developers, bankers and city officials must be innovative, flexible and think long-term. Cities must abandon precise, restrictive rules in favor of more flexible processes that allow for dialogue and big-picture thinking.

"West Main Street's transformation almost seems magical, but it was a 30-year war in which we had to overcome the status quo and the thinking of bankers who said, 'There's no way to redevelop something like that'," Weyland said.

Downtowns must be designed for people and not automobiles. The key is creating a place where people want to walk and gather. Successful downtowns must work around the clock, allowing people to live, work and play in the same area.

"It's about building communities," Gilmore said. "And local mom and pop businesses are the lifeblood of cities. They make them unique."

Downtown housing is most attractive to young people and empty-nesters; growing families usually prefer the affordable spaciousness of suburbs. "Cities are for people who are young and people who are young at heart. It's not about age, it's about attitude," Weyland said.

"Ultimately," he said, "the success of our cities are about the experiences people have in them and the memories they create."