Sorry for the confusion guys. Thanks Abhi. That answers my question.

‘Why beg Centre or WB when city has funds?’

Published: Thursday, Oct 21, 2010, 3:52 IST
By Ninad Siddhaye | Place: Mumbai | Agency: DNA

It is not often that E Sreedharan, managing director of the Delhi Metro Rail Corporation (DMRC), interacts with the media. In a rare, yet frank conversation, Sreedharan spoke to DNA on issues ranging from the funding pattern of metros to the differences between challenges in constructing the mass transport network in Mumbai and Delhi.


You are vehemently opposing the manner in which Mumbai metro project is being implemented. The master plan has been designed by the Delhi Metro Rail Corporation (DMRC), which is under your control.
Though the DMRC prepared the master plan, it did not involve any financial model. I am of the firm opinion that the metro should come under the Railways Act, and not the Tramways Act under which it is being constructed in Mumbai. The latter is an old and obsolete act and has been grossly misused by the state government to keep the metro under its control. How can a modern-day metro run under an act which is over 50 years old? Coming to my opposition to the public-private-partnership (PPP) model, it is clear from past experiences that metro projects require huge costs, and often run into losses. The first and second line of metro, being constructed by private players, cannot make profit. A metro has a social purpose and the government needs to be much more serious about it, which is not happening in Mumbai’s case.

State bureaucrats refute your claims. They say Delhi could manage funds as it is the national capital.
That is utter rubbish. Even we had our share of issues with the central government. The metro has to be constructed with 50% state and 50% central government equity. This financial aid from the Centre comes only if it is convinced. What is happening here (in Mumbai) is that the state is dominating so much that the Centre is not showing enough interest. This balance has to be perfect.

But then what about the concessions given to the PPP model by the Centre?
I have my reservations and I am quite firm about it. The agreement model is ideal for all the other infrastructure projects, but not the metro. Not a single metro in the country has been built on PPP. I have conveyed my opposition to the ministry of economic affairs, as well as the ministry of urban affairs, and they seem to agree with me. The problem is with the planning commission, which has prepared the model concession guidelines.

The third line between Colaba and Bandra, which is the costliest, is already in troubled waters. Do you think international financial agencies can provide a better solution?
Not really. International loan always comes at international rate of interest. Besides, agencies such as the World Bank are extremely critical of each and every brick in the project. Yes, we have also taken loan from Japanese International Cooperation Agency (JICA), but we have also promptly repaid a sizeable amount. I do not understand the Mumbai Metropolitan Region Development Authority. Mumbai is fortunate to have such a body which is sitting pretty on a huge land bank, which can earn the city billions. Why is the agency then not going ahead with its own finances to construct the metro? Even the part-PPP model which the DMRC has used for the airport route will not work for the Colaba-Bandra metro. We have kept the fares very high on that route since most of the commuters are air travellers. How can MMRDA use the model here?

Some residents want a fully underground metro. Is their demand legitimate?
No. In fact, having a fully underground metro is asking for more trouble. It has 10 times more security risks as compared to an elevated one. Moreover, the operational and maintenance cost of underground metro is 50% more than the elevated one. Even the construction cost is three times higher. For every kilometre of underground metro, we can easily construct 2.5 kilometre of elevated lines. In my opinion, the metro should be a combination of underground and elevated. In DMRC, we have one-third underground and two-third elevated network. Underground metro is necessary in congested areas. At places where the roads are wide, it can be elevated.

You have also criticised the construction industry. There have been a series of mishaps during Delhi metro’s construction. Even Mumbai saw some accidents last year in which innocent people lost their lives.
Though the construction industry is going places in terms of real estate, its standards with regard to the infrastructure sector remain of poor quality. Contractors must pull up their socks. I have to say that unfortunately, Indian contractors have not attained international quality standards. The problem seems to be of too many projects and too few contractors. This has to change fast.

There has to be a lot of capacity expansion among infrastructure contractors. In DMRC, towards the end of the project, we were finding it difficult to get contractors with international standards.

Finally, your observations on Mumbai metro.
They seem to have gone horribly wrong. The first line looks certain to have inordinate delays. Work for the second line is already attracting huge opposition from local residents. The government will have to, at some point, stop chanting the PPP mantra and get back to the equity model, which I think is the best solution. However, at the moment, the picture looks rather bleak.

source : DNA Mumbai

A metro has a social purpose and the government needs to be much more serious about it, which is not happening in Mumbai’s case.

.....

Underground metro is necessary in congested areas. At places where the roads are wide, it can be elevated.

.....

The government will have to, at some point, stop chanting the PPP mantra and get back to the equity model, which I think is the best solution. However, at the moment, the picture looks rather bleak.

the key points IMO. RIP mumbai metro

^^

Very true. PPP wont work for Metro, especially for a city like Mumbai. We have already seen the compromises in Line 1.

^^

Very true. PPP wont work for Metro, especially for a city like Mumbai. We have already seen the compromises in Line 1.
PPP won't work ANYWERE... It only fills pockets of private parties..

PPP won't work ANYWERE... It only fills pockets of private parties..

it works only where there is needed huge amount of capital like oil and gas discoveries...

Mumbai metro heading towards financial disaster: Sreedharan

Mumbai: Is Mumbai on the wrong track by letting private enterprise build its metro system? Yes, says Dr E Sreedharan, the man who helmed the construction of Delhi's 200-km-long metro network.

The veteran with over 57 years of experience, which includes constructing the 760-km-long Konkan Railway, was in Mumbai on Tuesday night to receive yet another laurel -- a magazine, Construction World, named the civil engineer 'Man of the year 2010'.

Sreedharan said that private participation in the Mumbai metro, which is being built with the private-public-partnership model, is a financial disaster in the making. "With the kind of investments required for a project like the metro, no private player should ideally come forward to construct it. The world over, metros are run by governments since it is a public service. Private players cannot expect a return on investment, as perhaps they are in the case of Mumbai," he said.

He also rubbished the bureaucracy's pet argument that states do not have the necessary funds, and cannot expect huge investments from the Centre. "Aid is needed only after there is clarity on the outlay. If bureaucrats cannot figure it out, it's their fault," he said.

He said that the idea of Mumbai not having enough resources is a fallacy. "The MMRDA is lucky to be sitting on large parcels of land. How can it say there is shortage of funds?" he questioned.


source (http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/mumbai-metro-heading-towards-financial-disaster-sreedharan-61387)

:cheers:

I think these articles answer the apprehensions regarding availability of funds for Mumbai metro.

Only in Maharashtra will you have a Govt totally ignoring the guy who built 4-5 phases of Metro and go on with its own thing. Geez! For some peoples egos, the whole city has to suffer.

Big mistake ...if they ignore Mr. Shreedharan...atleast respect his views...guys trust me....Mumbai Metro will might turn out to be a burden on this city....Reliance might charge high to get the returns.....

Yaar pata nahi par mujhe aisa lagta hai...Reliance ko to sirf return se matlab hoga na....Shreedharan Ji is actually right...

I dont agree at all with what sreedharan has to say


Mumbai already has a suburban network in place which person can ride from Kalyan to CST a distance of 108km return for Rs25 return (second class). The same thing on the Delhi metro will cost you much more, but a much better service.


Price can rise heavily only if there is a monopoly on transport. If Reliance has too costly a ticket, people will use BEST or the suburban and they (Reliance) will be left to rot.

Infact price can be dictated if there is a monopoly. That is a fundamental of economics.

If i have to go from Ghatkopar to Andheri , I will go via Dadar for a really cheap rate and avoid the metro.



Delhi never had a functioning suburban network of note to begin with. There is no way in hell private players can charge what they want. As the populace has the options to travel via other modes of public transport.

Infact the same if true for most other indian cities. The social cause Sreedaran is talking about is alive and kicking in the suburban railway under IR and second class in that has some of the cheapest fares per km in the world.

No need for anything else to be a social cause. The checks for price rise are already present and thus a PPP model can flourish in Mumbai for the first two lines atleast.

Lets keep fingers crossed and hope that it will be a good venture for the sake of the common public...

Lets keep fingers crossed and hope that it will be a good venture for the sake of the common public...

its not a question of keeping fingers crossed

Anil ambani raises the price too much then people are going to avoid the metro and go on suburban.

Let be honest and call a spade a spade.

A metro even built by 100% government funds and standards is not going to be as cheap as IR in the suburban. Delhi metro in itself is something like 2-3 times more expensive than Mumbai suburban per km travelled.


The lower middle class and poor are still going to prefer the suburban cause its saved a lot of money for them.

Middle Middle class and above might opt for the metro.

If Ambani tries to make a rise too quickly (as levels above inflation) then the middle middle class will abandon riding the metro.


If say Delhi metro makes a rise of 25% over 2 years. Is there any other mass public transport system to fall back on?


anil Ambani is no chump. The Ambanis have a nack of making money where others dont see anything. So lets not hold what MR Sreedharan (who i respect) says as law. Before bidding for this project he too would have known and factored in the threat of his prices being way overpriced as compared to IR.

its not a question of keeping fingers crossed

Anil ambani raises the price too much then people are going to avoid the metro and go on suburban.

Let be honest and call a spade a spade.

A metro even built by 100% government funds and standards is not going to be as cheap as IR in the suburban. Delhi metro in itself is something like 2-3 times more expensive than Mumbai suburban per km travelled.


The lower middle class and poor are still going to prefer the suburban cause its saved a lot of money for them.

Middle Middle class and above might opt for the metro.

If Ambani tries to make a rise too quickly (as levels above inflation) then the middle middle class will abandon riding the metro.


If say Delhi metro makes a rise of 25% over 2 years. Is there any other mass public transport system to fall back on?


anil Ambani is no chump. The Ambanis have a nack of making money where others dont see anything. So lets not hold what MR Sreedharan (who i respect) says as law. Before bidding for this project he too would have known and factored in the threat of his prices being way overpriced as compared to IR.

I still BELIEVE Mr. Shreedharan knows this better than us.....or for that matter anybody in INDIA....Yes, I too hope Mumbai Metro to be a success...lets see how things go....Waise you remember Ambanis in the electricity business in Mumbai....humnn

off topic but cool nonetheless.

ny-subway-historical-photos (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/10/21/nyregion/20101021-ny-subway-historical-photos.html)

Ratnakar Gaikwad blasts Sreedharan for metro remark

Published: Friday, Oct 22, 2010, 0:53 IST
By Ninad Siddhaye | Place: Mumbai | Agency: DNA

MMRDA commissioner Ratnakar Gaikwad was an angry man on Thursday. Just a day after ‘Metro man’ E Sreedharan criticised the Mumbai metro stating that “it is heading towards a financial disaster”, the metropolitan commissioner retorted by saying that his remark was damaging to the progress of the project and in very bad taste.

“Here is a private public partnership (PPP) model which has surprised even the transport experts in the US. Only one person seems to have a problem with it — E Sreedharan. His remarks on Mumbai metro are totally uncalled for,” said Gaikwad.

Sreedharan flayed the authority for implementing the PPP model. Refuting his charges of lack of efficiency among state-level bureaucrats to get funds from the Centre, Gaikwad said: “Many officials at the Centre are my batch mates. We have been camping in Delhi for days together to get the approval for viability gap. How do you think we have got a huge viability gap (Rs1,534 crore) funded for the second line of metro?”

Reacting to the remarks that the Delhi Metro Rail Corporation (DMRC) chief made about himself no longer being involved in the making of Mumbai metro, Gaikwad added that Sreedharan has been in touch with the authority officials. He also said that there is a huge difference between DMRC and MMRDA.

“DMRC is limited to constructing the Delhi metro while we are a holistic planning authority. We are implementing projects ranging from constructing dams to improving water supply to the metropolitan region to setting up of an innovation park which will help corporates in research and development. He (Sreedharan) thinks that we are sitting on a goldmine with our land bank. How can we use the entire money for constructing only the metro? For the nine lines, we need close to Rs42,000 crore and it is certainly beyond the financial ability of our organisation,” said Gaikwad.

http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report_ratnakar-gaikwad-blasts-sreedharan-for-metro-remark_1456286

^^ wow!! that is a joke!! he can't get Rs 1500 cr by selling assets(land)...that too in mumbai
this man is funny :lol:

^^ wow!! that is a joke!! he can't get Rs 1500 cr by selling assets(land)...that too in mumbai
this man is funny :lol:
Genius !!!!:bash: :bash:

^^ wow!! that is a joke!! he can't get Rs 1500 cr by selling assets(land)...that too in mumbai
this man is funny :lol:

why we need to sell land to get project done? why cant center pay for vgap amount? let say, I want to renovate my 3 bhk flat, but I dont have enough money to do that, I asked my dad for help with some money (in this case VGap) but he refused and asked me sell my 1 bedroom to get my renovation done :bash:

I really respect Shreedharan and how he handled the DMRC project, no one can match his dedication, but again it was delhi and whole scenario changes which city like Mumbai come in picture. Anyways I m not that expert like Shreedharan, but just thought that was not good remark either.

Big mistake ...if they ignore Mr. Shreedharan...atleast respect his views...guys trust me....Mumbai Metro will might turn out to be a burden on this city....Reliance might charge high to get the returns.....

Yaar pata nahi par mujhe aisa lagta hai...Reliance ko to sirf return se matlab hoga na.... ShreedharanJi is actually right...

Yes you are right partially, reliance is just looking for returns nothing more(wht we expect from business man, its not TATA), but I do agree with ichi, people here has choice to avoid metro and use locals or BEST or even monorail etc which is cheaper mode of transport. so if reliance is that fool enough to hike ticket beyond what was expected then people will not going to use....

I dont agree at all with what sreedharan has to say


Mumbai already has a suburban network in place which person can ride from Kalyan to CST a distance of 108km return for Rs25 return (second class). The same thing on the Delhi metro will cost you much more, but a much better service.


Price can rise heavily only if there is a monopoly on transport. If Reliance has too costly a ticket, people will use BEST or the suburban and they (Reliance) will be left to rot.

Infact price can be dictated if there is a monopoly. That is a fundamental of economics.

If i have to go from Ghatkopar to Andheri , I will go via Dadar for a really cheap rate and avoid the metro.



Delhi never had a functioning suburban network of note to begin with. There is no way in hell private players can charge what they want. As the populace has the options to travel via other modes of public transport.

Infact the same if true for most other indian cities. The social cause Sreedaran is talking about is alive and kicking in the suburban railway under IR and second class in that has some of the cheapest fares per km in the world.

No need for anything else to be a social cause. The checks for price rise are already present and thus a PPP model can flourish in Mumbai for the first two lines atleast.

this is not a classical monopoly. all charges are set by the local government, not by the private player

similarly for a person travelling from kalyan IR was also the only option, a monopoly. but the charges were set by the government

Yes you are right partially, reliance is just looking for returns nothing more(wht we expect from business man, its not TATA), but I do agree with ichi, people here has choice to avoid metro and use locals or BEST or even monorail etc which is cheaper mode of transport. so if reliance is that fool enough to hike ticket beyond what was expected then people will not going to use....

+1.
People need to realize that Mumbai already has an extensive well used public transit system. It is not that the metro being currently built, is being setup in a region with no public transport exists. Once can still travel between Andheri and Ghatkopar using BEST buses (and there are lots and lots of them) or using the local trains (via Dadar).

I believe, the profitability in PPP will be more by escalating the cost of the project and getting high VGF (and siphoning off) , rather than increasing the ticket cost later. Reliance or any private player will not be so naive to do that. May be real estate benefits would also be there, but I could not see any free real estate asset along Line 1 of Metro.

I believe, the profitability in PPP will be more by escalating the cost of the project and getting high VGF (and siphoning off) , rather than increasing the ticket cost later. Reliance or any private player will not be so naive to do that. May be real estate benefits would also be there, but I could not see any free real estate asset along Line 1 of Metro.

Mr. Gaikwad is acting like a child when he implies "Oh look Americans think this PPP model is good. Typical behaviour where the "White Stamp" is use to imply that everything is good.

"Real estate development on Line 1 is HUGE... that includes vast tracts of empty plots that are not visible due to slums and offices dotting the line along Andheri Kurla Road. Tons of old construction on the peripherals that will go into redevelopment.

Like others, i dont trust Reliance either. For all the arguments that people will still have a choice, its true only to a certain extent people WILL NOT have an option in case they jack up the rates. Its like saying... you can walk to Pune also, that's an option...

As an update Construction on Andheri Metro Station looks more complete than ever. The Stretch between Vaikunth Park (Teli Gali Signal) and WEH is also on its way with half the piers capped and girders placed. I also saw the foundation ready for the bridge across Andheri

I hope the trains and stations will have toilets ....
It's a serious question..

No need to take what Mr Sreedharan says as Gospel. He is no doubt a good technocrat. Problem is he thinks that on anything realted to Metro his should be the last word and if any advise he gives is not followed he does not like it.

He is no economist or financial wizard, so he is best advised to keep his financial advise to himself. He should really shut the F**k up.

I had read a newsreport in Business-Standard when he had voiced his opposition to the PPP route for Metro and was searching for it.Unfortunately it is available only in the half archive mode on that site.Luckily the same article was also published on other sites.

Posters here are alluding that a Pvt Sector Company will only be there to make huge profits and that it will gobble up large tracts of real estate.
While this fact of profit motive is well established and well known to everybody, what they do not know is the quantum of direct and indirect subsidies enjoyed (and ofcourse wasted) by these so called Socalist Options.

So for all those posters here thinking the DMRC is better model then the Mumbai PPP route here's some reality check.

http://www.indiatogether.org/2008/oct/eco-dmrc.htm

Give us a break, Mr Sreedharan.

08 October 2008 - In a fairly well-publicised letter to Planning Commission Deputy Chairman Montek Singh Ahluwalia, Delhi Metro Rail Corporation (DMRC) chief E Sreedharan has lambasted the Hyderabad public-private partnership (PPP) model, arguing that his state-owned model is the best one, that the Hyderabad model can "lead to a big political scandal", that the idea's to reap a windfall profit from the land allocated, and so on.

He points out that while the Maytas consortium has agreed to pay the government Rs.30,300 crores over the project's life (in terms of net present value, that's Rs.1,240 crore), much of this is due to the fact that the government gave the Metro 296 acres of land it can use for development - had this not been so, Sreedharan says Rs 10,000 crore more would have been required in terms of viability gap funding.

Most who read the letter, the contents of which were liberally leaked to the press, would assume none of this applied to the DMRC - indeed, the finance ministry's so impressed by the argument, it is actively examining the merits of this vis-a-vis the PPP model being pushed by the Planning Commission.

A closer look at the Delhi Metro annual report makes it clear that most of these arguments are self-serving, apart from of course the fact that the DMRC model, where the Union and Delhi governments own just 50 per cent each of the equity, means that no one's really in charge of the project - this has its own implications in terms of accountability and vigilance, but that's the subject of another column. Let's look at the sops the DMRC's getting and compare them with the Hyderabad ones that have so shocked the DMRC chief.

In 2006-07, DMRC had a total loan base of Rs.6648 crores, on which the average interest rate was 1.44 per cent and equity of Rs.3702 crores, which had earned no dividend so far and looks unlikely to ever earn one (Posters note that inspite of getting the loan at such laughably low rates it was not able to service it). If you assume a market interest rate of even 12 per cent and the same return for equity (though equity returns are usually much higher), this means DMRC is getting an annual subsidy of more than Rs.1000 crores. Nearly 90 per cent of the loan is a concessional one from the JBIC of Japan, but the exchange rate risk (which is significant in a project of such a long gestation) is borne by the Government of India. (Of course Govt of India would do anything for Delhi Metro)

DMRC never paid any excise/customs/sales taxes on capital equipment either - assume this to be a conservative 20 per cent and that's a one-time saving of another Rs.2000 crores, or another Rs.240 crores per year subsidy assuming the same 12 per cent interest rate. It also gets electricity at half the commercial rate, a saving of another Rs.25 crores per year. All this, by the way, when DMRC's annual revenues are just Rs.543 crores, of which Rs.252 crores is from real estate transactions! (Half from Real estate Earnings)

Contrast this with the Hyderabad case, where Maytas will raise all funds at commercial rates, has the same tariffs as the DMRC and will still pay the government a net present value of Rs.1240 crore. So, the savings from the PPP route are obvious.

But if you've been following Sreedharan's arguments, you'll have noticed the fatal gap in my argument - there's no mention of the 269 acres of real estate the Hyderabad metro's got, what Sreedharan calls the selling of family silver. According to the DMRC chief, had this land not been given, Maytas would have asked for Rs.10,000 crores instead of offering to pay the government.

What's important to keep in mind here is that the Delhi Metro itself got a huge amount of land - the 2006-07 annual report talks of 960 acres of land in just one place! In other words, whatever the Hyderabad metro got, Delhi Metro got many times that. And while the Hyderabad metro didn't get any land to lease/sell (it can develop/lease only the space above the metro stations/depots), the Delhi Metro's also transferring the leases of chunks of land for as many as 90 years - this is tantamount to selling government land.

While DMRC's auditors have said that this amounts to selling property and violates the law, the CAG says it is okay - the short point, however, is that DMRC's land deal is a lot sweeter than Hyderabad could ever imagine. Not surprisingly then that the Municipal Corporation of Delhi has levied a Rs.452 crores property tax on DMRC, which the latter has contested, citing the Chief Secretary's decision that this would not be levied. The New Delhi Municipal Corporation has followed with a Rs 33 crore demand.

Not paying taxes on the land, in turn, boosts Delhi Metro's profits even more, and it's unlikely the Hyderabad one will ever get any tax breaks like this. Interestingly, real estate income in 2006-07 accounted for 53 per cent of DMRC's total revenues, nearly 70 per cent of EBDIT profits - in terms of pre-tax profits, real estate profits were 11.6 times the overall profits.

What's most galling is that while the DMRC chief is so fulsome in his praise for his model, he doesn't care to mention that even as he's getting these hundreds of crores of annual sops, the Metro's struggling to meet even its physical targets. While the original target for Phase I was to carry 2.18 million passengers by 2005, this was lowered to 1.5 million in 2005 - the 2006-07 report says the ridership was 610,000! So, as the criticism of PPP projects builds up, you'll do well to keep these facts in mind.

Sunil Jain
08 Oct 2008
Courtesy: Business Standard

Sunil Jain is Associate Editor with Business Standard.

If the Delhi Metro did not have loans at such ridiculous and laughable rates and enjoyed such huge subsidies , it would surely be a Bankrupt corporation by now.

i am so sorry but the link is not working :)


Here it is:

http://profit.ndtv.com/news/show/govt-proposes-rs-4000-cr-investment-for-dmrc-27879

Make sure you grab the calculator to check the amount of money given by Govt of India to Delhi Metro in just 2 years:

4,140.75 Cr + 650 Cr + 2130 Cr + 5883 Cr

Does the central govt have a stake in Mumbai metro? Or a say in it's layout/operation? If they don't then maybe that's why they're not keen to invest in it.

Proper upgradation of suburban local trains , mono rail network setup , best services and metro phase 1,2,3 can give good options to commuters.

Important is how fast we implement. We are just working on phase 1 with line 1 now...! Steps to be taken to start work for all phases simultaneously . mmrda has only to award the contracts on ppp model . For those lines where the bidding is competitively received should be proceeded further and for others discussion,delibration and decision can be made later on.

I think every one is interested in investing in infrastructure.. coal ipo is the good example. now people dont care much for price but value for time and service.

@ Vicky

There is no doubt DMRC is likely to be loss making in few years and GoI has to spend a lot (this includes all metros that follow this model).

The problem in PPP is that, the profitability (in case of DMRC, it refers to the profitability for Netas and Babus) has to shared between 3 stakeholders - private player, state and central Govt netas and babus.Moreover in PPP, the Govt has to make an upfront payment during cosntruction (VGF) unlike DMRC model, where GoI is going to pay over the life of the JBIC loan.

Because of all this, the cost and inital central funding is prohibitively high that we ended up in elevated Metro, which clearly deserves underground . Who in the sane mind can think of eleveated Metro near Andheri station, considering the practical difficulties in acquiring land. And it is just my opinion.

Here it is:

http://profit.ndtv.com/news/show/govt-proposes-rs-4000-cr-investment-for-dmrc-27879

Make sure you grab the calculator to check the amount of money given by Govt of India to Delhi Metro in just 2 years:

4,140.75 Cr + 650 Cr + 2130 Cr + 5883 Cr

oh man!! this is just proposed... phase 3 has not seen the light of the day!!!

and Rs 5883cr is for both phase 1 and phase 2 which is 198 km...and total amount of the 1 and 2 phases were Rs 30k crore which becomes 20% of the total cost of DM that GOI has taken up

The article posted by Vicky007 is not free of biases. While trying to prove one's point people tend to mould or misrepresent facts to suit them.

One of the facts mentioned about low ridership figures than expected. These ridership figures were produced by RITES and not by DMRC.

Another point it says is that DMRC hasn't been able to service its loan. Actually, DMRC had started servicing the loan ahead of time.

Though I agree with the fact that Shreedharan shouldn't have said that Mumbai metro is heading for a financial disaster. Even if he believes so, he shouldn't have said that publicly. At least wait for the final results (though this wait could mean 20-30 years).

Andheri station and the skywalk leading to it
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/7237/ped107.jpg (http://img130.imageshack.us/i/ped107.jpg/)

PPP won't work ANYWERE... It only fills pockets of private parties..

it works only where there is needed huge amount of capital like oil and gas discoveries...

Not necessarily. It seems to be working fine on other public infrastructure projects as well. Tolled national highways (NHDP) are a case in point. No reason why the analogy cannot be extended to a metro system as well.

The article posted by Vicky007 is not free of biases. While trying to prove one's point people tend to mould or misrepresent facts to suit them.

The article was mentioned by me here just to set the record straight vis-a-vis the other articles appearing here which were dissing the PPP model.
The writer of the article is a Editor in a top ranking financial magazine of India and he has quoted facts and figures and also various subsidies that Delhi Metro has under various heads directly and indirectly, so by implying he is full of biases you are indulging in a very poor attempt to make Delhi Metro look good.


One of the facts mentioned about low ridership figures than expected. These ridership figures were produced by RITES and not by DMRC.

So you mean only the figures given by DMRC are credible and GOI body RITES is producing these numbers from thin air?


Another point it says is that DMRC hasn't been able to service its loan. Actually, DMRC had started servicing the loan ahead of time.

Fact is Delhi Metro was not able to service the loan earlier. Now it is barely able to do so.The fact it is only now able to do so (I am not convinced totally) on Loans coming in at 1.44% per annum is that a big deal?


Though I agree with the fact that Shreedharan shouldn't have said that Mumbai metro is heading for a financial disaster. Even if he believes so, he shouldn't have said that publicly. At least wait for the final results (though this wait could mean 20-30 years).

The ADAG group has already given the tariff rate on the first phase which is comparable to the charges of Delhi Metro and i am sure it will turn in profits before the first year is over. Till then Mr Sreedharan should try his Financial preaching somewhere else!!!!

^^ you need to be educated more Vicky..I believe you might be a graduate from Oxford or Kennel or Blah blah blah blah...all the very best with your Financial Preaching.....perfect for Maha Politics/...

reading your replies ehhhrr..koi fayda nahi hai argument karke aapse mahashay...Abhi Ignore putting a reply to him...

The article was mentioned by me here just to set the record straight vis-a-vis the other articles appearing here which were dissing the PPP model.
The writer of the article is a Editor in a top ranking financial magazine of India and he has quoted facts figures and the also various subsidies that Delhi Metro has under various heads directly and indirectly, so by implying he is full of biases you are indulging in a very poort attempt to make Delhi Metro look good.

Chill man. At least read carefully what I have written. I said it is not free of biases. There is a lot of difference between "full of biases" and "not free from biases". And BTW, I myself said that Shreedharan was wrong in saying whatever he said. So I am not making any attempt to make anybody look good or bad, but you definitely are as it can be clearly seen from your tone.

So you mean onlyt the figures given by DMRC are credible and GOI body RITES is producing these numbers from thin air?

If RITES claims that a 65 km of metro will be used by more than 2 million people everyday, then obviously the figure is a bullshit. London underground with a length of 400 km is used by 3-4 million everyday.

DMRC claimed that by 2011, 2 million people will daily use the metro and DMRC is inching closer to that figure.

Fact is Delhi Metro was not able to service the loan earlier. Now it is barely able to do so The fact that it is only now able to do so ( I am not convinced totally) on Loans coming in at 1.44% per annum is that a big deal?

There was a moratorium period given to DMRC which you are not aware of. What I have read in articles is that DMRC is servicing its loan on time / ahead of time and that's what I wrote.

Now I don't want to indulge in any argument after this as I can smell some agenda, so please avoid replying if you can.

Not necessarily. It seems to be working fine on other public infrastructure projects as well. Tolled national highways (NHDP) are a case in point. No reason why the analogy cannot be extended to a metro system as well.

the BOT in NHDP is a failed attempt even kamal Nath agreed it saying that in long term it will fail... just see the DGE the biggest example of failure of BOT

the BOT in NHDP is a failed attempt even kamal Nath agreed it saying that in long term it will fail... just see the DGE the biggest example of failure of BOT

I think BOT is working well for NHs. Govt anyways cannot invest on its own for all the highways, money has to come from somewhere.

DGE is failure from whose point of view? From pvt concessionaire it is great success as I guess it will break even in period less than a third of the total concession period. For commuters also it is working well.

Another good example of successful PPP projects in India are the airports.

PPP will work if the project is basically profit-making , but the lacklustre attitude of Govt makes it a loss making venture.

But there is no single Metro system in the world which is into profits. Even operating profits is a big question if the system gets old.

MM1 wll scrap through now and will not have much problems once operational (high ridership will result in good operating margins in the initial years) . But Mumbai has to deal with more congestion in already congested areas.

I think BOT is working well for NHs. Govt anyways cannot invest on its own for all the highways, money has to come from somewhere.

DGE is failure from whose point of view? From pvt concessionaire it is great success as I guess it will break even in period less than a third of the total concession period. For commuters also it is working well.

i agree that govt. cannot invest on its own... but this concept is a failure just wait for 7-10yrs when the volumes of cars,state buses and TRUCKS increases dramatically on NHs.. this will lead to massive traffic jams also it will be a major headache for GOI when the concession period finishes for most of the projects by 2035-40 it will be a HUGE HUGE task for them to maintain the large amount of expressways and highways

DGE is failure as it has resulted into a loss of govt. though very profitable for the private player...

^^ you need to be educated more Vicky..I believe you might be a graduate from Oxford or Kennel or Blah blah blah blah...all the very best with your Financial Preaching.....perfect for Maha Politics/...

reading your replies ehhhrr..koi fayda nahi hai argument karke aapse mahashay...Abhi Ignore putting a reply to him...

Mind your langauage. What the heck you mean by more educated? Do you even know what is your level of education vis-a vis mine? Let other posters decide who is more eduacted.

Till you are not challenged everything is fine and once someone shows you the truth with irrrefutable facts you are saying you dont want to argue.How convinient.

I regret my commitments are not allowing me to be coming on this forum everyday, rest assured whenver i do the facts and perspective will be put as they indeed should be.

^^ Goodluck to you....I hope they are just factual arguments and not something else...which many of us smelled in your last post....

Chill man. At least read carefully what I have written. I said it is not free of biases. There is a lot of difference between "full of biases" and "not free from biases". And BTW, I myself said that Shreedharan was wrong in saying whatever he said. So I am not making any attempt to make anybody look good or bad, but you definitely are as it can be clearly seen from your tone.



If RITES claims that a 65 km of metro will be used by more than 2 million people everyday, then obviously the figure is a bullshit. London underground with a length of 400 km is used by 3-4 million everyday.

DMRC claimed that by 2011, 2 million people will daily use the metro and DMRC is inching closer to that figure.



There was a moratorium period given to DMRC which you are not aware of. What I have read in articles is that DMRC is servicing its loan on time / ahead of time and that's what I wrote.

Now I don't want to indulge in any argument after this as I can smell some agenda, so please avoid replying if you can.

Boss just by claiming that the writer may have a Bias wont cut it, if you see any bias then prove it.Just saying he may have a bias is not good enough especially when he has put facts and figures in black and white (by the way after this article was published neither Mr Sreedharan rebuted it nor any DMRC official was able to counter it).

If you insist i wont give a point by point rebuttal to your post. I can again give reply to all the points you have raised above.Dont cast aspirations on other posters that they have an agenda just because their POV is different from yours.

^^ Goodluck to you....I hope they are just factual arguments and not something else...which many of us smelled in your last post....


Again a very vain attempt to escape from a irrefutible fact.
BTW Good luck to you too.

i agree that govt. cannot invest on its own... but this concept is a failure just wait for 7-10yrs when the volumes of cars,state buses and TRUCKS increases dramatically on NHs.. this will lead to massive traffic jams also it will be a major headache for GOI when the concession period finishes for most of the projects by 2035-40 it will be a HUGE HUGE task for them to maintain the large amount of expressways and highways

The portion highlighted in bold will anyways happen even if the road is constructed by govt. What difference will it make if pvt company operates the road. And BTW, when concession period ends, govt can again allot the road to another or same player for further widening (since traffic would have increased) and maintenance of the road. It is rolling process.

DGE is failure as it has resulted into a loss of govt. though very profitable for the private player...

Road isn't a failure but the govt strategies are. Govt should have asked for a large share in the toll collections for this road but the traffic projections they made were very pessimistic compared to actual conditions (and that could have been delibrate as a favour to the concessionaire).

That happens at all places. Even DIAL is providing conservative estimates for future air traffic to stall Greater Noida airport. However, traffic projections made by AAI have been much closer to reality than DIAL's so far.

Boss just by claiming that the writer may have a Bias wont cut it, if you see any bias then prove it.Just saying he may have a bias is not good enough especially when he has put facts and figures in black and white (by the way after this article was published neither Mr Sreedharan rebuted it nor any DMRC official was able to counter it).

Again you haven't clearly read what I posted. Let me repeat again. I didn't said that the writer may have biases. I wrote that the article is not free of biases, which means it has some biases. Earlier you assumed that I meant that the article is "fully biased", now you are assuming that I have said that the writer "may have biases".

Regarding proofs, I already gave two when I mentioned that the article is biased and I am not going to repeat them again because you don't properly read and straightaway start replying just by seeing the keywords and not getting the underlined meaning.

And facts can be moulded to suit anybody, like what was done in that article. Other day somebody posted that CG provided DMRC 13000 crores in 2 years without even thinking once that the loan component for Delhi metro is many times more than the CG's contribution.

Again you haven't clearly read what I posted. Let me repeat again. I didn't said that the writer may have biases. I wrote that the article is not free of biases, which means it has some biases. Earlier you assumed that I meant that the article is "fully biased", now you are assuming that I have said that the writer "may have biases".

Regarding proofs, I already gave two when I mentioned that the article is biased and I am not going to repeat them again because you don't properly read and straightaway start replying just by seeing the keywords and not getting the underlined meaning.

And facts can be moulded to suit anybody, like what was done in that article. Other day somebody posted that CG provided DMRC 13000 crores in 2 years without even thinking once that the loan component for Delhi metro is many times more than the CG's contribution.

Thats why I said he needs lil more education...so that he can learn to have some patience to read the complete thing and understand it before going allout with nonsense ...anyways

MOD...that was harsh - in any case Vicky was just trying to make a counter argument to Sreedharans.

Abhi's reply though a different POV was factual in its way. But please do not ridicule other posters just because they say something that touches your nerve. You think everything Sreedharan says is correct ? - Fine - but don't diss other posters...that is certainly not cool...

I think Vicky presented a cogent argument. After all we are talking in a very hypotetical fashion about Mumbai Metro - who knows how it would be ? Maybe it may do very well - changing the line of thinking in future metro projects...

Didn't you react strongly when people sais CWG would be a disaster ? So how come you don't practice what you preached earlier ?

True that ...please be considerate to the views of others... I am sure a lot of people would really love to have a spirited discussion but you dont have to call each other names :). Also, Vicky, I dont think there is any real requirement for this.

"He is no economist or financial wizard, so he is best advised to keep his financial advise to himself. He should really shut the F**k up."




MOD...that was harsh - in any case Vicky was just trying to make a counter argument to Sreedharans.

Abhi's reply though a different POV was factual in its way. But please do not ridicule other posters just because they say something that touches your nerve. You think everything Sreedharan says is correct ? - Fine - but don't diss other posters...that is certainly not cool...

I think Vicky presented a cogent argument. After all we are talking in a very hypotetical fashion about Mumbai Metro - who knows how it would be ? Maybe it may do very well - changing the line of thinking in future metro projects...

Didn't you react strongly when people sais CWG would be a disaster ? So how come you don't practice what you preached earlier ?

Again you haven't clearly read what I posted. Let me repeat again. I didn't said that the writer may have biases. I wrote that the article is not free of biases, which means it has some biases. Earlier you assumed that I meant that the article is "fully biased", now you are assuming that I have said that the writer "may have biases".

Thats what i wrote in my second reply to you. You are making a sweeping statement that the he have some bias.What bias does he have? he is just a financial expert giving his opinion.He does not have any stake in any project being put up in the PPP mode. He has mentioned what the facts are.(Clearly mentioning the Rupees in Crores, the Percentages etc)
Can anybody deny the quantum of subsidies, the total real estate etc which has been appropriated by DMRC and which is now in public domain thanks to this artcle.


And facts can be moulded to suit anybody, like what was done in that article.

The Writer has clearly brought out the facts.He has mentioned facts as they are, there is no spin to that.Point to note is that even DMRC has not denied or defended their stand after this article appeared.


Other day somebody posted that CG provided DMRC 13000 crores in 2 years without even thinking once that the loan component for Delhi metro is many times more than the CG's contribution.

It was not me who made that point.

Thats why I said he needs lil more education...so that he can learn to have some patience to read the complete thing and understand it before going allout with nonsense ...anyways

Stop hiding behind somebody's back. The more i am reading your posts (and i am sure others too) your level of education is becoming more apparent.

Stop getting Personal.

the BOT in NHDP is a failed attempt even kamal Nath agreed it saying that in long term it will fail... just see the DGE the biggest example of failure of BOT


DGE is failure from whose point of view? From pvt concessionaire it is great success as I guess it will break even in period less than a third of the total concession period. For commuters also it is working well.



DGE is failure as it has resulted into a loss of govt. though very profitable for the private player...

Guys check this paper---I will try to download it via Institute library

Alternative Concession Model for Build Operate Transfer Contract Projects

J. Constr. Engrg. and Mgmt. Volume 128, Issue 4, pp. 326-330 (July/August 2002)
Issue Date: July/August 2002

L. Y. Shen,1 H. Li,2 and Q. M. Li3
1Associate Professor, Building and Real Estate Dept., Hong Kong Polytechnic Univ., Kowloon, Hong Kong.
2Professor, Building and Real Estate Dept., Hong Kong Polytechnic Univ., Kowloon, Hong Kong.
3Professor, Civil Engineering School, Southeast Univ., Nanjing, China.
This paper develops an alternative concession model for build operate transfer (BOT) infrastructure projects. The concession period is a measure for deciding when the project ownership will be transferred from the investor back to the government concerned; it also demarcates the benefits, authorities, and responsibilities between the government and private investors. Previous studies have developed various techniques and methods, mainly suggesting proper organization structure, contracting procedures, methods of project financing, and risk allocation strategies when BOT-contract projects are implemented. These works have provided effective methodologies for the development of BOT contracts. Nevertheless, it appears that little has been undertaken in studying the way to determine the concession period in a BOT contract. This paper critically reviews the principles of establishing the concession period in a BOT contract. Such a review leads to developing a quantitative model for determining a proper concession period that can protect the interests of both the government concerned and private investors. An example is given that indicates how the alternative model can be applied to determine the concession periods of BOT infrastructure projects.

©2002 American Society of Civil Engineers

@ Vicky

There is no doubt DMRC is likely to be loss making in few years and GoI has to spend a lot (this includes all metros that follow this model).

The problem in PPP is that, the profitability (in case of DMRC, it refers to the profitability for Netas and Babus) has to shared between 3 stakeholders - private player, state and central Govt netas and babus.Moreover in PPP, the Govt has to make an upfront payment during cosntruction (VGF) unlike DMRC model, where GoI is going to pay over the life of the JBIC loan.

Because of all this, the cost and inital central funding is prohibitively high that we ended up in elevated Metro, which clearly deserves underground . Who in the sane mind can think of eleveated Metro near Andheri station, considering the practical difficulties in acquiring land. And it is just my opinion.

True, While the VGF component is paid Upfront by the Govt, it is a one time payment which over the longer run is cheaper to the DMRC model which to be commercially viable has to be supported in Direct and Indirect Subsidies of hundreds of crores of rupees (Even more then a thousand crore).So if you multiply this over a 30 years what does the final tab come to? Mindboggling isnt it??

What you mention about the Underground vs elavated metro is also true.Mumbai metro is clearly a unique challenge in the sense that if you build underground, the costs is very high while conversely if you try to build a elevated track the cost of construction is cheaper but thats true only if you have a clear right of way.If there is litigation and delays in the projects the cost can quickly rise to astronomical levels as commercial loans with interest of more then 8 to 10% is used for executing these projects.

I have seen many posters erroneously compare the cost per KM of Metro in Mumbai with that of Delhi. This comparison cannot be simply made as for Delhi there were very few obstacles (compared to Mumbai) in getting the right of way and hence the project gets operational faster.

A more apt case of Comparison would be with that of Navi Mumbai, as CIDCO already has possesion of land required for construction and hence is confident of completing the project in 30 months for the first phase.

True that ...please be considerate to the views of others... I am sure a lot of people would really love to have a spirited discussion but you dont have to call each other names :). Also, Vicky, I dont think there is any real requirement for this.

"He is no economist or financial wizard, so he is best advised to keep his financial advise to himself. He should really shut the F**k up."



I realize my mistake and appologize for that, but Sreedharan's attitude of " Its my way or the Highway" is very offputting.

The portion highlighted in bold will anyways happen even if the road is constructed by govt. What difference will it make if pvt company operates the road. And BTW, when concession period ends, govt can again allot the road to another or same player for further widening (since traffic would have increased) and maintenance of the road. It is rolling process.

Road isn't a failure but the govt strategies are. Govt should have asked for a large share in the toll collections for this road but the traffic projections they made were very pessimistic compared to actual conditions (and that could have been delibrate as a favour to the concessionaire).



see abhi in BOT as initially there were traffic snarls on DGE due to huge rush of toll collections.. i meant that same will happen at all BOT projects in the country due to growth of Auto sector(more than 20% every year)...whereas if the govt.. would have developed another model to maintain instead of BOT and earn revenue then maybe it could have been a better method... or maybe they could have added an initial tax whenever a person buys a vehicle

and for your second point i said the same that DGE is a failure from which i meant BOT is the failure on DGE and same will be the result with other BOT NHs because the initial projections by the Govt.(about auto sector growth) are already broken click (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=63650029&postcount=1681)

btw akash bhai pls download it :cheers:

What I surmise from his views is that if we are building such capital intensive projects designed for mass transit, the govt should have substantial, if not complete control right from design to operation so that its easier to manage without the need to manage between multiple agencies in the PPP model. The moment you start discussing profitability, numbers can easily be thrown on both sides. But numbers cannot explain a lot of policy decisions. All we get is edited stuff in newspapers and media. For example, why was the alignment changed from the original plan of Colaba-Bandra-Charkop to exclude Colaba Mahalakshmi Separately. Cost and feasibility is definitely not the factor since even before these alignments were being decided, there was a lot of planning and consideration that went into it.

DMRC claimed that by 2011, 2 million people will daily use the metro and DMRC is inching closer to that figure.

There was a moratorium period given to DMRC which you are not aware of. What I have read in articles is that DMRC is servicing its loan on time / ahead of time and that's what I wrote.


btw, dmrc initially claimed in excess of 3 million for phase 1 (55 km) and achieved just 20% of it. had dmrc been a private company, sreedharan would have been sacked long ago just for this.

i don't know what moratorium you are talking about. that is how debt is generally raised. companies start paying interest only upon completion of project, when they absorb the capital investments into their gross assets. it works esp. well for japanese banks since forex gains is more significant part compared to interest costs.

yen denominated loans have low interest rates. so, interest component would be very low. so what is important is forex losses on the loan. yen used to be 2.6 to a rupee back in 2006. it is now inching towards 1.8. i haven't seen dmrc accounting for such forex losses - accounting fraud (i don't think goi subsidizes this). and how did dmrc service it's interest payments in fy08-09: more real estate sale. land on books at 28 crores sold for 245 crores.

i frankly don't understand what sreedharan meant by dmrc is one of the 5 metro systems with operational profits. i think he stated that in 2008. does he even include depreciation? is he comparing this ebitda of dmrc with other metros? and what is the big deal about that when operational costs of a brand new system is so low compared to humungous capital costs. you must also remember that initial phases are the most optimal routes and subsequent routes & extensions have diminishing returns. allow it to run for a decade when it has much higher repairs expenses and then compare. by then we can expect govts subsidizing them and in general the service standards would return to avg. indian standards.

What I surmise from his views is that if we are building such capital intensive projects designed for mass transit, the govt should have substantial, if not complete control right from design to operation so that its easier to manage without the need to manage between multiple agencies in the PPP model. The moment you start discussing profitability, numbers can easily be thrown on both sides. But numbers cannot explain a lot of policy decisions. All we get is edited stuff in newspapers and media. For example, why was the alignment changed from the original plan of Colaba-Bandra-Charkop to exclude Colaba Mahalakshmi Separately. Cost and feasibility is definitely not the factor since even before these alignments were being decided, there was a lot of planning and consideration that went into it.

ya right. first have a highly regulated inefficient financial market. then print currency at will for a high inflation with interest rates in double digits and ensure capital intensive projects are unviable. then get governments involved through expensive subsidies.

anytime government involves itself, even if it public goods, it is bound to be in-efficient. only free market is efficient and will choose the most profitable project. non profitable projects will not be executed, very rightly.

^^ you need to be educated more Vicky..I believe you might be a graduate from Oxford or Kennel or Blah blah blah blah...all the very best with your Financial Preaching.....perfect for Maha Politics/...

reading your replies ehhhrr..koi fayda nahi hai argument karke aapse mahashay...Abhi Ignore putting a reply to him...

Stay away from ad hominem attacks . They dont do you any favour . Vicky has raised valid points , just try to counter facts with your own facts .

Oh and btw , we just Delhi politics in its full glory and are sure to see much more in the coming weeks. Dont even go there !!!

^^ you need to be educated more Vicky..I believe you might be a graduate from Oxford or Kennel or Blah blah blah blah...all the very best with your Financial Preaching.....perfect for Maha Politics/...

reading your replies ehhhrr..koi fayda nahi hai argument karke aapse mahashay...Abhi Ignore putting a reply to him...

Stay away from ad hominem attacks . They dont do you any favour . Vicky has raised valid points , just try to counter facts with your own facts .

Oh and btw , we just saw Delhi politics in its full glory and are sure to see much more in the coming weeks. Dont even go there !!!

Stay away from ad hominem attacks . They dont do you any favour . Vicky has raised valid points , just try to counter facts with your own facts .

Oh and btw , we just saw Delhi politics in its full glory and are sure to see much more in the coming weeks. Dont even go there !!!

Sir, A Humble request to read Vicky's comments one more...It's not about Delhi or Mumbai can we please come over it....???? It's about disgracing a person who has done miracles for this country and has taught us the way of getting things done and in right manner and without corruption and efficiently just because He( a thorough gentlemen ) has said something about your city administration .......You were the only guys who used to praise him like anything...and suddenly ...ehhhrrr....leave it ...it's useless explaining you guys....I would personally love to see mumbai in better shape and with Metro at its best...



and dude, delhi politics ...ehhh its noway as bad as Mumbai politics....if ya talking abt kalmadi ahem ahem he is your fellow maharashtrian and noway related to Delhi politics and so is Mr. Bhanot....

So understand the difference between state politics and event politics....

take care...and yeah no hard feelings..

Sir, A Humble request to read Vicky's comments one more...It's not about Delhi or Mumbai can we please come over it....???? It's about disgracing a person who has done miracles for this country and has taught us the way of getting things done and in right manner and without corruption and efficiently just because He( a thorough gentlemen ) has said something about your city administration .......You were the only guys who used to praise him like anything...and suddenly ...ehhhrrr....leave it ...it's useless explaining you guys....I would personally love to see mumbai in better shape and with Metro at its best...



and dude, delhi politics ...ehhh its noway as bad as Mumbai politics....if ya talking abt kalmadi ahem ahem he is your fellow maharashtrian and noway related to Delhi politics and so is Mr. Bhanot....

So understand the difference between state politics and event politics....



take care...and yeah no hard feelings..
I simply asked you to avoid personal attacks while making your point [whatever it is] . Vicky just asked Mr. Sreedharan to zip up , in a rather rude manner. Apart from that his criticism of Sreedharan's opinions are valid on factual basis. Someone has already pointed out to him and it seems he apologized. By questioning a forumer's education you are only breaking the rules of the forum.

Please note valid means worth listening to , not necessarily correct until proven so . So please go ahead defend Mr. Sreedharan or the model of DMRC or anything else you identify with , with all your might and information without indulging in personal attacks.

P.S. If anyone else attacks you in the same manner, ill point out the same to that person irrespective of wether i agree/disagree with them.

As far as that Kalmadi being Maharashtrian stuff, I'd just leave it right there and not embarrass myself and let you have the honours instead.

btw, dmrc initially claimed in excess of 3 million for phase 1 (55 km) and achieved just 20% of it. had dmrc been a private company, sreedharan would have been sacked long ago just for this.

It was RITES which claimed that figure.

i frankly don't understand what sreedharan meant by dmrc is one of the 5 metro systems with operational profits. i think he stated that in 2008. does he even include depreciation?

Depreciation is not included in operational profits because construction is a capital expenditure and not an operational expenditure. Here you are not talking about net profits.

you must also remember that initial phases are the most optimal routes and subsequent routes & extensions have diminishing returns.

That's actually opposite. Which each km increase in route length, the ridership figure increases exponentially instead of rising on a proportionate basis. For example, by 2005-06 when DM had route length of 65 km, the ridership figure was around 5 lakh. With doubling of route length to around 130 km about a month back, the ridership figure tripled to more than 15 lakh. Also with increase in ridership figures, the revenues realised from every single advertisement hoarding multiplies because of more eyeballs.

And with advanced technologies used in modern metro systems, the losses due to depreciation/ageing etc won't be as high as the older system operating in west.

It was RITES which claimed that figure.



Depreciation is not included in operational profits because construction is a capital expenditure and not an operational expenditure. Here you are not talking about net profits.



That's actually opposite. Which each km increase in route length, the ridership figure increases exponentially instead of rising on a proportionate basis. For example, by 2005-06 when DM had route length of 65 km, the ridership figure was around 5 lakh. With doubling of route length to around 130 km about a month back, the ridership figure tripled to more than 15 lakh. Also with increase in ridership figures, the revenues realised from every single advertisement hoarding multiplies because of more eyeballs.

And with advanced technologies used in modern metro systems, the losses due to depreciation/ageing etc won't be as high as the older system operating in west.

Yeah how true I am paying bloody 90,000 Rs per week for my company's advertisement on DMRC Platforms...ehhh....how the hell they don't earn more

i dont know why people are making this mumbai v delhi.

I dont care how much the centre has spent on Delhi metro. The fact is that some support regardless of how much the Central gov spent in Delhi 100% or 0% would be welcome.


The issue is of mumbai. I could not care less how much Delhi got. So lets not even bring Delhi into it.

I feel Mumbai deserves the line funding. End of discussion.

If centre feel that its way too much for the line, they should state how much they feel they are ready to fund and breakdown of the expenses they think is realistic.

Thats a constructive argument. Not dismissing it outright saying no.

The fact is again, Mumbai regardless of what other cities give or not, is one of the leading contributors to the GDP of the country. It pays much more than it gets. Sometimes you as the centre you need to say that it better to keep ya golden goose happy.


But i think that Sreedaran really has his sums wrong. Clearly Reliance is in it for the money. I trade shares not cause I love the companies in which i buy or sell but rather cause I make a profit on it. Thats the entire point of a private enterprise. People make money. Whats wrong in making money? People are going to have options other than the metro. Simple as that.....

Reliance must have got some real estate deals/(some deals) or something like that which makes this profitable.


I hold the Reliance infra stock and they are giving out a good dividend and have a healthy profit.

So I think we should not worry about the profit of things. If people on the market think that this would not be profitable then this stock would have tanked. That itself should tell us what we need to know about it. Cause Reliance infra i believe are carrying out a lot of major infra projects in mumbai (metro and western freeway)

http://money.rediff.com/companies/reliance-infrastructure-ltd/15130003/bse/year

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliance_Infrastructure

i dont know why people are making this mumbai v delhi.

I dont care how much the centre has spent on Delhi metro. The fact is that some support regardless of how much the Central gov spent in Delhi 100% or 0% would be welcome.


The issue is of mumbai. I could not care less how much Delhi got. So lets not even bring Delhi into it.

I feel Mumbai deserves the line funding. End of discussion.

If centre feel that its way too much for the line, they should state how much they feel they are ready to fund and breakdown of the expenses they think is realistic.

Thats a constructive argument. Not dismissing it outright saying no.

The fact is again, Mumbai regardless of what other cities give or not, is one of the leading contributors to the GDP of the country. It pays much more than it gets. Sometimes you as the centre you need to say that it better to keep ya golden goose happy.


But i think that Sreedaran really has his sums wrong. Clearly Reliance is in it for the money. I trade shares not cause I love the companies in which i buy or sell but rather cause I make a profit on it. Thats the entire point of a private enterprise. People make money. Whats wrong in making money? People are going to have options other than the metro. Simple as that.....

Reliance must have got some real estate deals/(some deals) or something like that which makes this profitable.


I hold the Reliance infra stock and they are giving out a good dividend and have a healthy profit.

So I think we should not worry about the profit of things. If people on the market think that this would not be profitable then this stock would have tanked. That itself should tell us what we need to know about it. Cause Reliance infra i believe are carrying out a lot of major infra projects in mumbai (metro and western freeway)

http://money.rediff.com/companies/reliance-infrastructure-ltd/15130003/bse/year

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliance_Infrastructure

nail on head. bombay's requirements for a modern mass transit system are inherently manifest. there is no need to look for justification in any other metropolis.

whether all bombay forumers on this forum have drunk the kool-aid re ppp, vgf, etc. is beside the point. no less an éminence grise than montek singh ahluwalia is a proponent of ppp, viz: indian express (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/montek-prescribes-ppp-for-mumbai-infrastruct/590353/), dna (http://www.dnaindia.com/money/report_ahluwalia-backs-ppp-model-for-maharashtra_1358527).

this is not a contest between incompetents (supposed?) like ratnakar gaikwad and pure as the driven snow technocrats like sreedharan. throughout bombay's history, its infrastructure was built by tapping into the local business community, e.g. elphinstone college (the first 'college' in the state built with public funds), the j.j school of arts (endowed by Jamsetjee Jeejeebhoy), rajabai tower (paid for by premchand roychand). i submit that bombayites more than most others in our fair nation understand the concept of free enterprise.

as has been pointed out elsewhere, bombayites have options, trains, best, cabs, the nefarious autos, not to mention 'contract' buses. the metro will have to compete with these.

plus note that keeping fares low has its own costs. 7-10 deaths per day on our train system, inhuman conditions in the coaches, etc. a somewhat self sustainable system is much preferred.

</end rant>

Depreciation is not included in operational profits because construction is a capital expenditure and not an operational expenditure. Here you are not talking about net profits.

yes, i understand. my question is what good is that number in a capital intensive project.


That's actually opposite. Which each km increase in route length, the ridership figure increases exponentially instead of rising on a proportionate basis. For example, by 2005-06 when DM had route length of 65 km, the ridership figure was around 5 lakh. With doubling of route length to around 130 km about a month back, the ridership figure tripled to more than 15 lakh. Also with increase in ridership figures, the revenues realised from every single advertisement hoarding multiplies because of more eyeballs.

And with advanced technologies used in modern metro systems, the losses due to depreciation/ageing etc won't be as high as the older system operating in west.

i meant phase 1 & 2 with ridership of 15 lakhs with a reasonable track length of 150 kms. are you saying future phases are more profitable? if so, why were they not taken up first?

and future ridership increases with increases in track length where newer ads would be placed. so, how did you come to the conclusion that revenues from every single adverstisement would multiply?

I hope the trains and stations will have toilets ....
It's a serious question..

+111. In Miami in US I was literally going from 1 station to another in search of it. Infact very very few stations in NYC have toilets.

Sir, A Humble request to read Vicky's comments one more...It's not about Delhi or Mumbai can we please come over it....???? It's about disgracing a person who has done miracles for this country and has taught us the way of getting things done and in right manner and without corruption and efficiently just because He( a thorough gentlemen ) has said something about your city administration .......You were the only guys who used to praise him like anything...and suddenly ...ehhhrrr....leave it ...it's useless explaining you guys....I would personally love to see mumbai in better shape and with Metro at its best...

and dude, delhi politics ...ehhh its noway as bad as Mumbai politics....if ya talking abt kalmadi ahem ahem he is your fellow maharashtrian and noway related to Delhi politics and so is Mr. Bhanot....

So understand the difference between state politics and event politics....

take care...and yeah no hard feelings..

Kalmadi is a Kannadiga... he was born n raised in Mah tho... but that means nothing... mah politicians are just as corrupt as most other politicians... corruption has no boundaries... it's only that centre has more politicians than states... so guess wat it means...

And since there is a lot of private money involved in Mumbai infra, kickbacks can be huge... Delhi n other metros are catching up on the private bit...

Relainc ebid for the project and won, its' now their obligation to provide a world class Metro for the safety and fast commute of mumbaikars. Why do people care so much who gets how much funding.

If Reliance fail to deliver a good metro system then they should be penalised and they're pretty damn slow by the looks of it.

nail on head. bombay's requirements for a modern mass transit system are inherently manifest. there is no need to look for justification in any other metropolis.

whether all bombay forumers on this forum have drunk the kool-aid re ppp, vgf, etc. is beside the point. no less an éminence grise than montek singh ahluwalia is a proponent of ppp, viz: indian express (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/montek-prescribes-ppp-for-mumbai-infrastruct/590353/), dna (http://www.dnaindia.com/money/report_ahluwalia-backs-ppp-model-for-maharashtra_1358527).

this is not a contest between incompetents (supposed?) like ratnakar gaikwad and pure as the driven snow technocrats like sreedharan. throughout bombay's history, its infrastructure was built by tapping into the local business community, e.g. elphinstone college (the first 'college' in the state built with public funds), the j.j school of arts (endowed by Jamsetjee Jeejeebhoy), rajabai tower (paid for by premchand roychand). i submit that bombayites more than most others in our fair nation understand the concept of free enterprise.

as has been pointed out elsewhere, bombayites have options, trains, best, cabs, the nefarious autos, not to mention 'contract' buses. the metro will have to compete with these.

plus note that keeping fares low has its own costs. 7-10 deaths per day on our train system, inhuman conditions in the coaches, etc. a somewhat self sustainable system is much preferred.

</end rant>

Well said! Aint about Delhi v Bombay - Irresepective of what any other city has received or not, Bombay's need is clear and present. Net net, Bombay needs a comfortable, clean and effecient mass transport solution to the ageing local train and BEST systems. All I would say to the centre is guys - quit taking and fork some over - c'mon! Whether the BOT model is superior or not, only time will tell. Unfortunately, none of these models can be accurately evaluated in the longer run as there is so much noise in the accounting along the way and so much unaccounted for money has exchanged hands, that any attempt down the line to prove which one is better is futile.

What is real though is whether out of all this an efficient and comfortable transport solution has been created and whether it makes enough to sustain its own maintenance. The investors need to see a profit after that. Beyond a point I could not give a rats a** whether the participants made a profit or not. They took the risk and if well managed, they will make their returns - Caveat Emptor - always works.

Relainc ebid for the project and won, its' now their obligation to provide a world class Metro for the safety and fast commute of mumbaikars. Why do people care so much who gets how much funding.

If Reliance fail to deliver a good metro system then they should be penalised and they're pretty damn slow by the looks of it.

hmm the issue if about mostly line 3.

I think we can put down the mucked up line 1 due to MMDRA planning rather than Reliance.

The money bit for line 1 and 2 is covered.

the pace at which construction is taking place i think by 2020 line 1-3 will be built.



I think overall even the suburban is improving a lot of safety. A well functioning/fairly priced metro will force suburban and IR to up its game.

It will be best for mumbai if both metro and suburban compete with each other, driving efficiency up and prices down.Now is BEST can get a BRTS of the ground , it will add further competition.

the problem really seems to be that cities are dependent on central help for raising funds. the present indian tax distribution structure seems to be deeply flawed. cities should not be dependent on the whims and fancies of fragile egos and changing governments. they need a more solid funding basis by inverting the tax distribution system. it should be local > state > centre

the problem really seems to be that cities are dependent on central help for raising funds. the present indian tax distribution structure seems to be deeply flawed. cities should not be dependent on the whims and fancies of fragile egos and changing governments. they need a more solid funding basis by inverting the tax distribution system. it should be local > state > centre

then you will be dissapointed by DTC and GST...

@BB

there are plenty of funds for mumbai to complete all its jobs.


Your talking about consistently raising a lot of money form Vashi bridge and other outlets. MMDRA recently sold a big plot in Wadala for 1600 crore.


Sreedhran does have a point that MMDRA has enough land to fund a lot of projects in Mumbai from the Trans harbour link to the viability gap on the 3rd line of the metro.They are sitting on a gold mine in terms of BKC (bandra kurla complex) so many plots yet to be sold.


However the deepest issue is the centre going back on its word. You cant say yes we will fund it and then do such a u turn. If they would have said out of the 9000 crore needed we feel us funding 5000 is right in our estimates then we could build from there.

Also did a lot of reading and fishing around for why mumbai metro Anil ambani is bidding.

Line 2 passes through Bandra Kurla complex with a lot of free land at disposal. A close friend in the know told me that Anil Ambani is planning a big land grab there(or has already purchased a lot of land) .So its the land with which he makes a profit via the metro passing there and not the metro itself. He plans to run the metro at a subsidised rate and build a lot of offices there and rent them out and make a profit there. Bribe a few MMDRA officials and then purchase the land near the metro for the purposes of the metro or some shit like that.

Okay people. Let's get back on topic.. What's the status at four bungalows ???

yes, i understand. my question is what good is that number in a capital intensive project.

Being operationally profitable is important because your expenses are limited to only construction. In fact even a part (though not complete) of the construction cost would be realized over time because of operational profits.

However, if the system is not even operationally profitable (like all metros of the world except 5), then you will not only drain resources during construction
but also during whole lifetime. The system will become a perennial burden on the govt.

Hence that number is important.

i meant phase 1 & 2 with ridership of 15 lakhs with a reasonable track length of 150 kms. are you saying future phases are more profitable? if so, why were they not taken up first?

Now that was funny. I said if suppose Phase-I is 50 km and 1 lakh people use it and if phase-II is again 50 km, then number of users in Phase-I + II will be more than 2 lakhs. It's not because Phase-II's 50 km yielded more ridership but because of the multiplier effect.

Let me explain with a figure.

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/4263/49314400.png

Suppose line AB is built in a city and its ridership is 1 lakh. Another line CD is build in the same city with same length a AB but not connected to AB. Its ridership is also 1 lakh.

However if line CD is built with an intersection with line AB at point X, then then the ridership of the lines AB + CD won't be 1+1 = 2 lakh. It will be much more than that. Why ? Because earlier the 2 possible routes in the city were AB and CD (or their part). However, if they were joined, then many new routes have become a reality such as AXC, AXD, BXC, and BXD which were not possible if these lines were independent, hence more people using the system.

So if ridership was 1 lakh for line AB, then after building line CD across AB, the ridership would increase by more than 1 lakh because of new possible combination of routes.

So the answer to your question is that even if you build Phase-II (line CD) before Phase-I (line AB), you will face the same situation. It wasn't the speciality of Phase-II which increased ridership but a multiplier effect which did.

and future ridership increases with increases in track length where newer ads would be placed. so, how did you come to the conclusion that revenues from every single adverstisement would multiply?

Bhai, with increase in length, the ridership in existing lines also increases because of the just explained ridership effect. For example if DMRC runs trains with 4 car length with a frequency of 4 minutes, then with increase in system length, the crowd in existing parts will also increase and it will have to increase the frequency to 2 minutes and increase the train length to 8 cars, hence increase of 4 times. So if earlier, 1000 people passed through 1 ad per hour while sitting in train, then at a later date, 4000 people will be passing through the same ad per hour.

And you know the correlation between no. of viewers and the ad revenue. Here I didn't talked about ads in new lines but increase in viewers for the ads in existing lines because of opening up of new lines.

Ab dobara mat poochna...

To all the intellectuals, financial analysts and economists... stop hijacking this thread.

Have you ever realized that members like Fuwad, Coolguyz etc. who actually contributed updates to this thread have stopped doing so ever since you wise people woke up.

A few words of advice for the people who are not from Mumbai. "Mumbai is NOT Delhi". The demographics involved in Mumbai are completly different from that of Delhi. Visting Mumbai as a tourist and actually living in Mumbai are two different things. How many of you have taken the Mumbai locals 6 days a week to work and back? How many of you have walked through Mumbai rains?

Have requested twice in the past to stop dissing each other and take your wise talk elsewhere as this thread is for the Mumbai metro updates.

Thank you..

To all the intellectuals, financial analysts and economists... stop hijacking this thread.

Have you ever realized that members like Fuwad, Coolguyz etc. who actually contributed updates to this thread have stopped doing so ever since you wise people woke up.

A few words of advice for the people who are not from Mumbai. "Mumbai is NOT Delhi". The demographics involved in Mumbai are completly different from that of Delhi. Visting Mumbai as a tourist and actually living in Mumbai are two different things. How many of you have taken the Mumbai locals 6 days a week to work and back? How many of you have walked through Mumbai rains?

Have requested twice in the past to stop dissing each other and take your wise talk elsewhere as this thread is for the Mumbai metro updates.

Thank you..

+1000000000000000 You said it mate!!!!!!

^^
Thank you.

Pre cast segment Construction site at wadala
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/289/ped119.jpg (http://img132.imageshack.us/i/ped119.jpg/)

Nice pic Coolguyz.

Thanks coolguyz. Loks like a lot of segmnets are ready, but not hoisted as the pillars are not yet complete.
@Coolguyz and Fuwad: Are there any areas of phase 1 where construction is still to begin, by that I mean any areas where even the piling work for pillars is yet to begin?

Thanks coolguyz. Loks like a lot of segmnets are ready, but not hoisted as the pillars are not yet complete.
@Coolguyz and Fuwad: Are there any areas of phase 1 where construction is still to begin, by that I mean any areas where even the piling work for pillars is yet to begin?

The segments have been ready since long time, the problem with the metro is that it passes through the most densiest areas, so they cant have those huge trailers carrying segments standing in inner roads during daytime, and at night time they bring in at most 2-3 segments of which 1 is always parked near the new HUL headquaters during day time
But with eastern freeway and some part of monorail, the trailers move during day time too, as its a relatively free area, they were trailers lined up on the MBPT road ready with segments, u can see I have posted the pics in the mumbai roads thread, so the work doesnt stop.

Thanks coolguyz. Loks like a lot of segmnets are ready, but not hoisted as the pillars are not yet complete.
@Coolguyz and Fuwad: Are there any areas of phase 1 where construction is still to begin, by that I mean any areas where even the piling work for pillars is yet to begin?

piling for pillars is not done yet for e-w rail overbridge on the western side of andheri.

^^ And also from Andheri station to Telli Galli on the eastern side.

Thats a lot of redundancy in capacity!! Or is this just another example of dumbass reporting?

====================================================


Bombardier to look for new business in metro car segmentThursday, 28 Oct 2010

Bombardier Transportation will bid aggressively for the metro rail projects of Hyderabad, Mumbai Phase-II, and Delhi Phase-III. The company will do this to ensure a larger order book for its coach manufacturing factory.

The company, which has set up a factory to manufacture metro cars in Savli, near Vadodara, has reached a capacity to roll out one car a day. The capacity can be further ramped up to 38 cars a day. It has an outstanding order of 286 coaches.

Out of a total order to deliver 538 metro cars to Delhi Metro Rail Corporation, Bombardier has already delivered 63 trains.

Mr Rajeev Jyoti president and MD of Bombardier Transportation India that “We will go aggressively after the new business, new expansion plans. But we have to take strategic steps. There won't be any desperate bids.”

Mumbai Metro Phase II will be developed and operated on a public-private partnership basis by Reliance Infrastructure; Hyderabad Metro will be implemented on a PPP basis by Larsen and Toubro. So, these orders have to be placed by these two companies.

One of the company's key objectives is to soon have this site manufacturing for export.

(Sourced from BL)


Source: http://www.steelguru.com/indian_news/Bombardier_to_look_for_new_business_in_metro_car_segment/172084.html

Mumbai Metro Update - JP Road Andheri West.

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/788/27102010244g.jpg

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/18/27102010246.jpg

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/4435/27102010250.jpg

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http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3990/27102010287.jpg

http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/7719/27102010288.jpg

yeesh. no wonder people crib about travelling to andheri

Great effort there Fuwad :cheers:

Thats a lot of redundancy in capacity!! Or is this just another example of dumbass reporting?

Seems latter as usual.

^^Its near station/market area .Its bound to be dirty filthy and congested.Metro has made it worse .

+111. In Miami in US I was literally going from 1 station to another in search of it. Infact very very few stations in NYC have toilets.


Dont worry sir, Indian railways provides free toilet facility for 36% of India's population, the metro will soon follow!

great update fuwad....nice work

Dont worry sir, Indian railways provides free toilet facility for 36% of India's population, the metro will soon follow!
Don't be too sure. Chennai and Bangalore Metro don't have toilets. Mumbai could follow suit ...

Don't be too sure. Chennai and Bangalore Metro don't have toilets. Mumbai could follow suit ...

but the tracks provide open-air toilets.

but the tracks provide open-air toilets.
It'll be near impossible to relieve yourself on a Metro track.
Atleast Mumbai is overhead electrification...
But, almost impossible, nevertheless...
People would rather do it on the streets than climb 100 steps to do it ...

great updates Fuwad. Nice work.

Pillars for the metro are still being constructed and we already see them plastered with banners..

great updates Fuwad. Nice work.

Pillars for the metro are still being constructed and we already see them plastered with banners..
When NHAi started building a flyover , before the pillars were up, the barricades and signage with project details were filled with politcos ads ...

Metro Updates !! JP Road Andheri west.

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/7920/27102010289.jpg

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/143/27102010290.jpg

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/2396/27102010291.jpg


http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/6849/27102010292.jpg

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Wow. Places are congested as hell.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8884/27102010311.jpg

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/6779/27102010312.jpg

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greatttttttttt update fuwad.... :cheers:

Thanks Fuwad. You and Coolguyz deserve an award :)

Great updates everyone. This will be a good thing for Mumbai.

Great pics fuwad! :cheers:

Don't the metro people try to stop you when you take pics at active construction sites?

^^
All the pics have been taken while standing in/on public place/property. The sites of which pics are taken are visible/ accessible to the general public as no barricading is in place for it. I have never entered any barricaded area to take my pics. Therefore I don’t see why someone should take any objection to my picture taking, of an activity/situation visible to everyone.

Thanks for the pics fuwad as any up-date is welcome.

Just concerned that some of the areas looked dangerous where you took your pics (pics:3608)

No proper safety or barricades is not acceptable for the general public even though the last pics are quite impressive.

^^

Thumb rule - Longer the distance from the station, better the impression. The elevated metro is going to be a permanent mess in the areas closer to the station.

Amazing updates Fuwad.

OFF TRACK
Metros VAG line runs into yet another hurdle

Roana Maria Costa & Chittaranjan Tembhekar TNN 02-11-2010

Mumbai: Monday dealt another blow to the citys Metro rail dream.Hurdles in the way of constructing Mumbais first upcoming Versova-Andheri-Ghatkopar (VAG) Metro rail corridor seem to be mounting with it showing no signs of completion yet.

WR has refused to offer four hours of train-blocks,for 57 days,for the construction of a crucial Metro rail bridge above the tracks between Andheri (E) and Andheri (W).

According to WR officials,a four-hour block for 57 days as asked by the MMRDA at Andheri station would not be feasible.Mumbai Metro One Private Ltd (MMOPL),a special agency set up under the leadership of Reliance Infrastructure and MMRDA is building the 12- km long Metro line costing around Rs 2,500 crore.

Chief PRO,WR,Sharat Chandrayan said that three months ago,the MMRDA had asked for a two-and-a-half hour block.However,a detailed planned was not attached.The details were all piecemeal.Now they have asked (unilaterally) for a four-hour block again without a scheme in place, he said.

He added that trains at Andheri do not run between 1:45 and 3:45 am.WR is not ready to cancel trains.Not running trains for four hours cannot be absorbed by the city.We will examine the proposal and request them to give us a complete scheme so that we can consider it, he said.MMRDA recently extended the deadline for completion of the VAG corridor from December 2010 to August 2011.MMRDA s sources and those who are closely monitoring the work,said the Metro line may not be completed by August 2011 as only four to five stations,out of the 12 stations,are near completion.Meanwhile,MMRDA spokesman Dilip Kawathkar said that there would not be any delay beyond August 2011.

http://lite.epaper.timesofindia.com/getpage.aspx?pageid=12&pagesize=&edid=&edlabel=TOIM&mydateHid=02-11-2010&pubname=&edname=&publabel=TOI

i hope this line takes 5 years to build. so that the monkeys in charge will finally understand the metro in this city needs to be u/g

Source (http://epaper.hindustantimes.com/Publications/HT/HM/2010/11/02/ArticleHtmls/WR-refuses-to-increase-block-time-for-Metro-02112010004010.shtml?Mode=1), Article (http://www.hindustantimes.com/WR-refuses-to-increase-block-time-for-Metro/Article1-620945.aspx)

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/4708/02112010004010.jpg

Yup. The same old Mumbai filth. Deadlines extended like always.

B_B: It should run underground where necessary and should be elevated where it can be. In the case of this line, some sections (particularly between SV Road and the airport and perhaps near Ghatkopar again) should probably have been underground, but I don't think the case can be made for an entirely u/g line. The costs are significantly higher (even more so given Bombay's sub-surface characteristics), and where feasible, we should be building elevated lines. Where absolutely necessary, we should go underground.

The delays are not due to the design reasons but because of poor management. The fact that this is new territory for the Ambanis probably contributes to it. They should hire some more experienced Delhi Metro people.

Minimum Metro fare hiked to Rs 9

Ashley DMello TNN 03-11-2010

Mumbai: Commuters will end up paying Rs 9 as minimum fare on the Mumbai Metros first line instead of the Rs 8 announced earlier as a 10% hike is allowed every four years from the time of signing the agreement,which was done in 2007.

The hike in price,will take place before the Metro starts operations next year on the first line from Versova-Andheri-Ghatkopar,in keeping with the agreement signed between the government and the consortium led by Reliance Infra that is building the Metro.According to officials,even with this hike,the fares will be the lowest in the world with the Beijing Metro having a minimum fare of RMB 2 (Rs 14) and the London Metro,1.80 pounds (Rs 130).
Mumbai Metropolitan Region Development Authority (MMRDA) commissioner Ratnakar Gaikwad said that the hike will be 10% of the fare.Even the BEST will have to hike its fares by then,he said.

According to Gaikwad and joint commissioner Ashwini Bhide,the Metro line may even be completed ahead of schedule as 68% of the work was already done.All stations and civil work would be finished by June next year.
Citizens groups opposing the Metro have,however,pointed out that all the stations on the route were still incomplete and a lot needed to be done before trials could be conducted.

In the meantime,a virtual classroom experiment to teach villagers residing in Thane district will be started in Nilji,which falls on the Vasai-Diva-Panvel railway line.This classroom experiment will use facilities that have been made available by the Valuable Group and Lodha builders.

http://lite.epaper.timesofindia.com/getpage.aspx?pageid=8&pagesize=&edid=&edlabel=TOIM&mydateHid=03-11-2010&pubname=&edname=&publabel=TOI

Indian Railways philosophy for the Mumbai commuter - You have to accept what we offer you. We will not allow anyone else to offer something better. As an average citizen you are not entitled to travel in comfort. What we offer you is in fact much more than what you deserve.

i hope this line takes 5 years to build. so that the monkeys in charge will finally understand the metro in this city needs to be u/g

Yeah. And with Rs. 600 cr/km construction cost for u/g, we will see one new line every 30 years.

According to officials,even with this hike,the fares will be the lowest in the world with the Beijing Metro having a minimum fare of RMB 2 (Rs 14) and the London Metro,1.80 pounds (Rs 130).

:lol:

Stupids have compared with all other metros around the world but forgot to compare with other Indian metros before announcing this. Delhi metro's lowest fare is Rs. 8 and it's Rs. 4 in Kolkata metro.

And this time it wasn't media, it was from "officials".

Well, minimum fare of 9 is prtty reasonable.

MMRDA cracks the whip on Metro; seeks update

By: Ranjeet Jadhav Date: 2010-11-03 Place: Mumbai

A report in MiD DAY has nudged the Metro rail authorities into expediting work on the Versova-Andheri-Ghatkopar Metro route.

A couple of days after MiD DAY carried a story on how work on the Metro rail has been dragging on ('Metro work slower than a snail', October 29), the Mumbai Metropolitan Region Development Authority (MMRDA) has taken serious note of the report.

"Officials from the Mumbai Metro One Private Limited (MMOPL), which is carrying out the work, was asked to give a presentation on Monday on the current status of work. This was after the article appeared in your paper," sources told MiD DAY.

"MMOPL Director KP Maheshwari gave a detailed presentation about the present status of work to MMRDA Commissioner Ratnakar Gaikwad." Another MMRDA official said Gaikwad had directed MMOPL to speed up work and complete it before the June 2011 deadline that MMRDA has set for completion of civil work.

Long way to go

The MiD DAY story mentioned how barely 3 km of the 11-km stretch of the route had been completed. It also highlighted that MMRDA was still to erect over 100 pillars and has to construct bridges by June 2011.

In the last 32 months (since February 2008), 68 per cent of the work on the first corridor of the Metro rail has been completed. So, will the remaining 32 per cent be done in eight months?

"Yes, we will complete work by June 2011," Gaikwad said yesterday. "Construction activity on the first Metro rail corridor is in full swing. Around 68 per cent work has already been completed."

Gaikwad, however, did not speak about the total number of pillars that have been completed on the stretch.
Of 424 pillars that fall along the route, 104 are still to be erected. Of the 320 pillars which have already been set up, the tubular viaduct through which Metro trains will pass, has been placed on 130 pillars.

Gaikwad claimed that the work is a year ahead of time, and trains will be operational by August 2011.
"All Metro stations will be completed by April 2011 and the iron bridge that will be placed over the Western Express highway is ready at the Kolkata workshop," he said. "It will soon be transported to Mumbai."

Baseless comments?

E Sreedharan, who has headed the Delhi Metro Rail Corporation for over a decade, had during his recent visit to Mumbai said that the Mumbai Metro is very much behind schedule.

Without taking names, Gaikwad said that people who are not aware of the ground reality of the Metro rail construction "should not make baseless comments that the Mumbai Metro Rail work is running behind schedule".

The other view

"I think the claims made by MMRDA that 68 per cent work is complete and the remaining would be completed by June 2011 is a statement to mislead the common man," said architect Nitin Killawala, who has filed a PIL against MMRDA over the slow pace of work.

"Even if MMRDA works round the clock, it will not be able to complete the civil work before deadline."

http://www.mid-day.com/news/2010/nov/031110-Versova-Andheri-Ghatkopar-Metro-route-mumbai-MMOPL.htm

Yeah. And with Rs. 600 cr/km construction cost for u/g, we will see one new line every 30 years.



back to the most discussed topic.

First it is for social good. So cost should not be a factor. There had been no efforts to find if the underground metro could be funded with multilateral devlopment agencies (JBIC, Asian bank etc)

Instead of per km cost, it should be per person (based on the city's population) cost. Mumbai with its density will not require long networks of 500 kms. I am sure that the revenues (if disclosed properly) from say 10 km line of Mumbai, will be way higher than that of similar line in any other city of India.

Still, if we want to speak of the economics , we have to comapre the ratios like cost to tax income from city , cost to GDP of city or cost to PV of incremental GDP expected (absolutely diff to estimate).

A simple cost per km comparison doesnt seem fair to me

thankyou so much fuward for the pics


I just dont see any progress. ITs the same pillars. Mind you i dont know much about the technical details.

^^kuch progress nahin hain .I travel that(Andheri) side to my office everyday . The work done is hardly 30% and the ch* tiya is saying 68% .Dont know which metro work he is talking abt certainly not mumbai metro.

[QUOTE=Abhishek901;66485559]Yeah. And with Rs. 600 cr/km construction cost for u/g, we will see one new line every 30 years.

That 600cr/km figure seems awfully suspect to me, but even if it's true and we spend that kind of money the pros of going u/g should be considered for a city like Mumbai. Like Indiadreams said, there's more to it than just cost of the line - it's the ROI that's more important. Additionally, just with this one line, we have seen endless delays, a good chunk of it with IR...you will not lose that kind of time if you were to build underground.

Also, delays and land acquisition hurdles translates to an increase in cost. The 200 cr/km figure for elevated, often quoted here, does not take into account into the extra costs incurred thus far.

Source (http://epaper.hindustantimes.com/Publications/HT/HM/2010/11/04/ArticleHtmls/%E2%80%98Metro-will-miss-deadline%E2%80%99-04112010006001.shtml?Mode=1), Article (http://www.hindustantimes.com/Metro-will-miss-deadline/Article1-621954.aspx)

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/12/04112010006001.jpg

Trust Reliance to increase the fare even before beginning services. lol.

Update: Station at Andheri is being constructed faster. NOt sure about the bridge between Andheri E and West. Only the ground work on the east side is visible with foundation pillars being laid and completed. There is little or not work visible for this bridge on the west side.

There is no work between Teli Galli and Andheri Station, not even digging.

T
There is no work between Teli Galli and Andheri Station, not even digging.

They are yet to get ROW for this stretch.

The progress is dismal to say the least, even after the monsoon. Juhu galli flyover is much better.

They are yet to get ROW for this stretch.

The progress is dismal to say the least, even after the monsoon. Juhu galli flyover is much better.
ROW ???

^^
Right Of Way

MMRDA cracks the whip on Metro; seeks update


Gaikwad claimed that the work is a year ahead of time, and trains will be operational by August 2011.


What is this joker Gaikwad claiming?? work is a year ahead of schedule.. LOL

I wonder how they claim such magic numbers (68%% of the work is done) when they no its not true at all. Like the BMC which claims every year that 90% of the work is done in preparation of the monsoon.

Right of Way - I thought it was taken care of right at the beginning of the project.

I wonder how they claim such magic numbers (68%% of the work is done) when they no its not true at all. Like the BMC which claims every year that 90% of the work is done in preparation of the monsoon.

Right of Way - I thought it was taken care of right at the beginning of the project.

^^
Right Of Way
Thank you.

As per Gaikwad metro is 100% complete when pillars and tubular viaducts are laid. Metro does not need tracks, electrical/signalling systems, ticketing systems, stations, testing etc. BEST can run buses up there.

That's Gaikwad for the city!

As per Gaikwad metro is 100% complete when pillars and tubular viaducts are laid. Metro does not need tracks, electrical/signalling systems, ticketing systems, stations, testing etc. BEST can run buses up there.
ROFL.

Right of Way - I thought it was taken care of right at the beginning of the project.

Not at all. They had problems in getting Right of Way for part of JP road, midway through the project.

Nevertheless, there is no problem for the stretch between Andheri station and Tele galli. It is just that they cannot close all the roads simultaneouesly since the buses have to move in and out of station. They have to release the closed roads (MV road between Tele galli and WEH ) and Nagardas road, before undertaking work in this stretch

http://picasaweb.google.com/etgrafix/RecentlyUpdated#slideshow/5537522326449010690


Bet the view will be fantastic from the Metro when it transverses the Jog Flyover on the WEH

http://picasaweb.google.com/etgrafix/RecentlyUpdated#slideshow/5537522326449010690


Bet the view will be fantastic from the Metro when it transverses the Jog Flyover on the WEH

Sorry dude, cant see the pic, uploading on your behalf, WEH station in the background
http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/29/etgraphics.jpg (http://img2.imageshack.us/i/etgraphics.jpg/)

Shit I was going to post the pic of the pillar near WEH. Ah well! The WEH pillar construction looks awesome. There is a new drain being built on the east side of the WEH. Maybe they will speed things up once the drain has been built.

Yeah the view would be nice, but it would be nicer thing if they would step on the gas pedal.

Source (http://epaper.indianexpress.com/IE/IEH/2010/11/10/ArticleHtmls/10_11_2010_523_004.shtml), Article (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Residents-to-approach-state-for-underground-Metro/709005/)

http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/1502/10112010523004.jpg

finance it, then we'll have it

^^ isn't the metro being billed by the tax payers money ? They are already financing it by paying tax to the goverment.

:eek2: Rs 56,000 cr :nuts:

yeah these people living there need to finance the metro even more.

Though they are paying taxes, an underground metro through that area will send property prices there northbound even faster than the normal rate.

That in itself should be an incentive for these people to cough up the money.


If somebody said underground metro from Mulund to Colaba. Hell i wont mind paying up at all, cause the value of my house increases to more than cover up the contribution.

that would be wonderful. if all my tax money was being spent in my area only

if part of my tax money can go to fund a statue in lucknow or a park in delhi then there is no reason why i should shell out some more for a metro in my locality

that would be wonderful. if all my tax money was being spent in my area only

if part of my tax money can go to fund a statue in lucknow or a park in delhi then there is no reason why i should shell out some more for a metro in my locality

cause the value of your home will rise at an even faster rate?




In any case even i think this figure of 56,000 crore seems really really high, MMDRA need to openly publish account about the for cost of various things. Not just give us a random unbelievably figure just to justify overground metro.


56,000 crore comes out to 12.7 billion USD if i am correct. That is a ridiculous sum for a 40 km metro from dahisar to mankhurd with wage costs so low in india.

The cost per km is higher than some big projects like Crossrail in London. with their high labour costs etc this figure is not believable at all for me atleast.Cross rail is going to cost £20 billion or about $32 billion for a nearly 120km making it cheaper per km than the MMDRA underground metro.

that would be wonderful. if all my tax money was being spent in my area only

if part of my tax money can go to fund a statue in lucknow or a park in delhi then there is no reason why i should shell out some more for a metro in my locality

Ohhhhh

It'll be near impossible to relieve yourself on a Metro track.
Atleast Mumbai is overhead electrification...
But, almost impossible, nevertheless...
People would rather do it on the streets than climb 100 steps to do it ...


you can never be too sure ... the churchgate and CST subway are closed from 2300 to 0500 precisely for this reason ... if they can dare to do it in an area like CST, it will be a cinch in a place like (say) wadala .. it helps that trains (and metro) do not run at the right time of nature call.

that would be wonderful. if all my tax money was being spent in my area only

if part of my tax money can go to fund a statue in lucknow or a park in delhi then there is no reason why i should shell out some more for a metro in my locality

do u pay the required 56000 crores tax ? and still waste time on SSC ... some inheritance you have it seems

Source (http://epaper.indianexpress.com/IE/IEH/2010/11/10/ArticleHtmls/10_11_2010_523_004.shtml), Article (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Residents-to-approach-state-for-underground-Metro/709005/)

http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/1502/10112010523004.jpg

saari ramayan khatam ho gayi to poochte hai ki sita ka baap koun tha ... abhi tak ye kumkhakaran ki neend so rahe the kya ...

do u pay the required 56000 crores tax ? and still waste time on SSC ... some inheritance you have it seems

Same old ranting dude....nothing new

Similar Article
Underground metro a must, insist citizens

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/Underground-metro-a-must-insist-citizens/articleshow/6898885.cms

dude everybody will say its a must

I will say i want a metro station inside my apartment directly going to nariman point non stop service.

I will say i want a metro station inside my apartment directly going to nariman point non stop service.

:lol: what will happen of privacy ichi bhai?? :lol:

:lol: what will happen of privacy ichi bhai?? :lol:

only i get to use that metro link.

One passenger :cheers:

do u pay the required 56000 crores tax ? and still waste time on SSC ... some inheritance you have it seems

err, what?

think about what you just said. if you can

thats the only reasonable solution let them pay the extra taxes and just hope the fuckin politicians dont eat it. then u can have your underground. with extra taxes you can even request pedder road underpass, why flyover when the big bo$$es can afford to put the road six feet under the earth"?

awesome. so whenever someone in any part of india expects better infrastructure or services they should pay extra to the government

can we afford u/g for Metro in Juhu otherwise?

can we afford u/g for Metro in Juhu otherwise?

when calcutta and delhi had the u/g metros did the citizens along those routes have to pay extra?

when calcutta and delhi had the u/g metros did the citizens along those routes have to pay extra?

All the cities in Spain have u/g metro built 100 years back. India is so much lacking in everything single thing.:bash::bash:

i think india is the only country in the world trying to build elevated metros in areas which are so dense

All the cities in Spain have u/g metro built 100 years back. India is so much lacking in everything single thing.:bash::bash:

:lol:

because we were ruled by British....... kid... i think you are new to India :lol:

:lol:

because we were ruled by British kid... i think you are new to India :lol:

I'm Malaysian.

Here Comes Bad News - Center Refuses to Pay Viability Gap for Line 3 even though it promised

http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report_first-underground-metro-in-a-spot-as-mmrda-scouts-for-funds_1465008

Now what will those people like to say who were screaming that Mumbai Gets equal funds ....

For those outsiders, who have never seen the ground realities in the westen burbs, please dont base your opinion on your experience in other cities or perceptions.

It is not privacy, but the sheer density in those areas warrant an underground metro (It is among the highly dense areas even within Bombay). If not the whole of Bombay, the western parts from Colaba till Malad and Chembur /Sion areas require underground Metro. It is worth the investment in a city like Bombay, where the land and public space are scarce.

What a mess :ohno:

yeah but dont you think a price tag of 56000 crore extra seems to be a ridiculous amount?

If I were incharge I'd chuck everybody out and hand it over to DMRC.

Here Comes Bad News - Center Refuses to Pay Viability Gap for Line 3 even though it promised

http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report_first-underground-metro-in-a-spot-as-mmrda-scouts-for-funds_1465008

Now what will those people like to say who were screaming that Mumbai Gets equal funds ....

why on earth they were demanding 40% funding with such a ridiculous price of rs 600 cr per km???

Even if MMRDA have mentioned any cost/KM, I am sure there will be some agency at central level who should analyze this at a detailed level before approving/disapproving.

If they feel that the cost/km is too high they should have said that explicitly or ask MMRDA to prove it.At least they could have said that this is max what we can give for Line 3.

Don't know what has gone inside though because the reason for not approving is not mentioned. In this case the center was aware of the high cost and Viability Gap for Line 3 and agreed to pay it earlier and now suddenly they disagreed

mumbai (for want of a better word) seems to be speaking in multiple voices. some want colaba to charkop first ... some want ghatkopar to andheri first ... some want a batata vada with all that too ... some want underground only .. some want a hovercraft to haul their fat a*** ... even for simple flyovers there are too many conflicting demands ... lata thinks that a flyover will strangle her nightingale ... some even want to throw out the bihari taxi-wallahs but are not willing to drive those taxis themselves ... some think that they run the country out of their pocket money ...

mumbai is in a big mess ... hyderabad and bangalore never complained (well almost) about getting the overground metro ... poor hyderabadis are waiting for any metro since the last ice age thanks to bloody raju ... delhi also seems quite happy with whatever they have ... kolkatans have stoically accepted an IR made metro ... need i say more ?

how much do you vote you big pocket fat cats ?? 40-45 % ??? how proud you are of that ?

i think the first thing that mumbai needs is to do is to vote in every election and explicitly let their voice be known ... rest will be taken care of ... please do vote even if you support thakrey clan ... nothing else will make any difference ... there are many in mumbai who are ready to hijack your voice ... much more so than in other cities ... and your vote is the best defense you have ... let me tell you one thing ... you vote may even let you get away with demanding that share of pocket money

Here Comes Bad News - Center Refuses to Pay Viability Gap for Line 3 even though it promised

http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report_first-underground-metro-in-a-spot-as-mmrda-scouts-for-funds_1465008

Now what will those people like to say who were screaming that Mumbai Gets equal funds ....

it will be tough but not impossible ... center is an unreliable partner for such things ... not that they are bad but they have much more to care for ... if you think from the POV of central govt it is not senseless if they refuse to sell their livers and eyes to fund a metro

i think MMRDA (or whoever idiot is handling this project) should try for soft loans from some international agency ... but with the 'Adarsh' reputation that Mumbai authorities have which international agency will be willing to put their money ? nevertheless nothing worth doing is ever easy ... instead of begging from center and forcing them to refuse again and again, it is better to try something else now ...

baaki Mumba Devi ki krupa !!

it will be tough but not impossible ... center is an unreliable partner for such things ... not that they are bad but they have much more to care for ... if you think from the POV of central govt it is not senseless if they refuse to sell their livers and eyes to fund a metro

i think MMRDA (or whoever idiot is handling this project) should try for soft loans from some international agency ... but with the 'Adarsh' reputation that Mumbai authorities have which international agency will be willing to put their money ? nevertheless nothing worth doing is ever easy ... instead of begging from center and forcing them to refuse again and again, it is better to try something else now ...

baaki Mumba Devi ki krupa !!

dude based on your logic no international agency will lend Delhi any funds what so ever due to the CWG scam and the various agencies. I would say adarsh scam is an eyewash compared to that. not to mention how late YSR's son seems to own so much land and the real estate deals in Hyderabad.


I do agree with you that Mumbaikars are not going to get anywhere by voting in the congress. Its simply going to be people like Murali Deora appearing to be hip and delivering jack all....we are better off with the BJP and Shiva sena combo. Congress simply talks "secular" and delivers nothing what so ever.



the fact of the matter is that Mumbai has become too dense a city for an overground metro. Even Bangalore i believe has the extremely dense parts underground.

With mumbai the fact that even the suburbs are extremely densely populated makes having an elevated metro a non idea.

Now i agree with most that MMDRA seems to have fudged the figures with regards to the cost needed to go underground. Maybe center needs to say what is a realistic figure as devendra said than dismissing outright.

ie say that such and such a sum is in our opinion a right thing.

The Bandra-colaba route

and the dahisar-charkop-mankhurd route

these past through some of the most dense areas in the city. Something like 40-50,000 people per square km. IMO its not too wise to construct an elevated metro through there...

mumbai (for want of a better word) seems to be speaking in multiple voices. some want colaba to charkop first ... some want ghatkopar to andheri first ... some want a batata vada with all that too ... some want underground only .. some want a hovercraft to haul their fat a*** ... even for simple flyovers there are too many conflicting demands ... lata thinks that a flyover will strangle her nightingale ... some even want to throw out the bihari taxi-wallahs but are not willing to drive those taxis themselves ... some think that they run the country out of their pocket money ...

mumbai is in a big mess ... hyderabad and bangalore never complained (well almost) about getting the overground metro ... poor hyderabadis are waiting for any metro since the last ice age thanks to bloody raju ... delhi also seems quite happy with whatever they have ... kolkatans have stoically accepted an IR made metro ... need i say more ?



how much do you vote you big pocket fat cats ?? 40-45 % ??? how proud you are of that ?

i think the first thing that mumbai needs is to do is to vote in every election and explicitly let their voice be known ... rest will be taken care of ... please do vote even if you support thakrey clan ... nothing else will make any difference ... there are many in mumbai who are ready to hijack your voice ... much more so than in other cities ... and your vote is the best defense you have ... let me tell you one thing ... you vote may even let you get away with demanding that share of pocket money
Travel from Dahisar to Colaba every day by existing trains, buses, roads etc like we do and then call people fat cats and god knows what . Time and again it has been explained the need for underground metro in Mumbai is due to the very high population density of the city and suburbs . Mumbai is a vertical spread unlike most Indian cities which spread radially , making models of other cities practically useless for the city , something you can just not fathom . In Hyd the ORR is coming up in virgin land. The city will now expand around it , hopefully in a disciplined manner . Mumbai is not so lucky where land is simply scarce .
For the least minimum , travel along the roads where the overground metros are planned /already been built and you will know what I mean .

Now , if Hyderabadis and Bangloreans are fine with the system they are getting over there that's their choice .

i think the first thing that mumbai needs is to do is to vote in every election and explicitly let their voice be known

err, you do know the metro is built by the state, not the city, and with help from the centre (in some cities). bombay's fate and decision is not made in-house - its made by maharashtra and delhi

of course it would be ideal if india had the brains to give enough of the taxes collected from its cities back to them and have strong mayors in each of them. but thats wishful thinking in this country

dude based on your logic no international agency will lend Delhi any funds what so ever due to the CWG scam and the various agencies. I would say adarsh scam is an eyewash compared to that. not to mention how late YSR's son seems to own so much land and the real estate deals in Hyderabad.


I do agree with you that Mumbaikars are not going to get anywhere by voting in the congress. Its simply going to be people like Murali Deora appearing to be hip and delivering jack all....we are better off with the BJP and Shiva sena combo. Congress simply talks "secular" and delivers nothing what so ever.



the fact of the matter is that Mumbai has become too dense a city for an overground metro. Even Bangalore i believe has the extremely dense parts underground.

With mumbai the fact that even the suburbs are extremely densely populated makes having an elevated metro a non idea.

Now i agree with most that MMDRA seems to have fudged the figures with regards to the cost needed to go underground. Maybe center needs to say what is a realistic figure as devendra said than dismissing outright.

ie say that such and such a sum is in our opinion a right thing.

The Bandra-colaba route

and the dahisar-charkop-mankhurd route

these past through some of the most dense areas in the city. Something like 40-50,000 people per square km. IMO its not too wise to construct an elevated metro through there...

+1

Isnt something is better than nothing ??
Would you have stopped the locals till they give you air conditioning.. which is absolutely essential in mumbai's climate ??
How about having a start now.. and later with better knowledge and governance.. things could be changed for remaining sectors ??

the locals when they started were pretty much the best system money could buy at the time. the fact that IR has not bothered to do anything in the last 60 years is a different story

the locals when they started were pretty much the best system money could buy at the time. the fact that IR has not bothered to do anything in the last 60 years is a different story

+1.

The locals were and even today are the life line of Mumbai. The original city of Mumbai has developed around these routes. If there was a way that a major part of the monetory incomings from the locals could be put back into the system, the Mumbai locals would have been amazing. Introducing the same carriages with a few cosmetic changes and calling them 'world class' is a slap in the face to the every day mumbaikar.

the mumbai locals are still one the of the cheapest way to travel. They literally are dirt cheap.

the metro will complement the locals IMO not take over them.


The population density is the real reason mumbai metro needs to be underground.

the locals when they started were pretty much the best system money could buy at the time. the fact that IR has not bothered to do anything in the last 60 years is a different story

IMO it's just a reflection of the poor economic policies of the last 60 years.

IMO it's just a reflection of the poor economic policies of the last 60 years.

:lol: how are that related to bichara IR's perfomance who till 2004 was running in huge losses due to too many employees and highly subsidised fares... and if you expected improvement in service then you are right that it was a big mistake on their part to subsidise the IR they should have had fares at least 10 times higher then what they are having now :)

Mumbai local trains should be added with 2-3 AC coaches, next to first class coaches. Automatic doors are must to keep AC working. Then local trains will be as good as metro for those who can afford..

Source (http://epaper.hindustantimes.com/Publications/HT/HM/2010/11/13/ArticleHtmls/No-tenders-floated-but-RInfra-may-build-R2375-13112010003018.shtml?Mode=1), Article (http://www.hindustantimes.com/No-tenders-floated-but-RInfra-may-build-R2-375-cr-Metro-line/Article1-625512.aspx)

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/8580/13112010003018.jpg

maybe someone needs to buy mmrda new calculators. 8 km is not 20% of 31.87 and neither is 2,375 crores 20% of 8,250 crores

Mumbai local trains should be added with 2-3 AC coaches, next to first class coaches. Automatic doors are must to keep AC working. Then local trains will be as good as metro for those who can afford..

That's a gr8 idea if it is implemented at a slightly higher fare structure.
As the Mumbai Suburban has an unmatched network it will definitely complement the metro network and encourage more people to take to public transport and increase revenue.

That's a gr8 idea if it is implemented at a slightly higher fare structure.
As the Mumbai Suburban has an unmatched network it will definitely complement the metro network and encourage more people to take to public transport and increase revenue.

actually it will broaden the audience of local trains to include car using ppl. bangalore traffic reduced after volvos introduced.. 6 second class, 4 first class, 2 AC coaches should be ok in a train..

AC coaches in local train can even be named "metro coaches" :lol:

actually it will broaden the audience of local trains to include car using ppl. bangalore traffic reduced after volvos introduced.. 6 second class, 4 first class, 2 AC coaches should be ok in a train..

AC coaches in local train can even be named "metro coaches" :lol:

^^ aisa hi metro chahiye tha to sab log underground underground kyu chilla rahe the :ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno:

dude based on your logic no international agency will lend Delhi any funds what so ever due to the CWG scam and the various agencies. I would say adarsh scam is an eyewash compared to that. not to mention how late YSR's son seems to own so much land and the real estate deals in Hyderabad.


no i did not mean that any intl agency will never lend money ... it just needs more hard work ... basically they need to be convinced that nobody is going to gobble up the money and put in swiss banks ... getting intl funds + soft loans by indian FIs (backed by govt) is a good idea ... no taxpayer money is involved as well as an impartial outside agency gets monitoring rights ...

no i did not mean that any intl agency will never lend money ... it just needs more hard work ... basically they need to be convinced that nobody is going to gobble up the money and put in swiss banks ... getting intl funds + soft loans by indian FIs (backed by govt) is a good idea ... no taxpayer money is involved as well as an impartial outside agency gets monitoring rights ...

why friend you have not read about the World Bank and Viderbha suicides....

I would not be too sure about the tag impartial outside agency.


The world bank as far as i am aware is involved in a lot of MMDRA projects. So its not as if they dont have a history off that.

they should approach again no doubt. They have no other option....


and about the gentem idea


that actually sounds good. AC class + normal class plus second class.

Only issue again with that is if too many people subscribe to the ac travel then I see big issues in closing doors.Nirax, the suburban lines are already built. It you dont need to do some major construction on them. Hence people dont mind it. Cause the pain is over with that.

not such a great thought to pass the blame of farmers' suicide on WB eh ? apne ghar me chor aur bahar dhindhor ?? WB do not have such a great leverage inside indian countryside to cause suicides. it is our neglect and bad governance which does the trick.

my point is that non-exchequer funding is superior for infrastructure projects. and that also leaves some funds with the govt so that next time a farmer commits suicide, they cannot blame anyone else ...

and think about it another way ... even if MMRDA is not able to pay back loan to (say) WB, they cannot physically remove and take away the metro. hai na chit bhi meri pat bhi meri !

that actually sounds good. AC class + normal class plus second class.

Only issue again with that is if too many people subscribe to the ac travel then I see big issues in closing doors.Nirax, the suburban lines are already built. It you dont need to do some major construction on them. Hence people dont mind it. Cause the pain is over with that.

it is sure a nice idea ... only hitch is that we already have 12 car trains (to be increased to 15 cars - please correct me if i am wrong) and all jam packed. the peak frequency is maximum possible already. so the locals are saturated ... any more than that and we will hear of rampant failures and risk to life (as if it isn't already)

so a new mass transit is urgently needed ... and a high capacity one like the locals ... and one which is built in reasonable time ... and one which costs reasonable money ... i do not see any mode of transport other than the one which is already being constructed which fits the bill. granted it is not going to be as high capacity as the locals coz they are std guage (locals are broad guage) but given the constraints of getting readily available technology here too we have essentially one option. and guess what ... we are already pursuing that.

now that leaves me confused as to why mumbaikars are complaining ... even more so when construction has already started ... why such a big clamor for u/g now ... ab tak kya kaan me tel daal ke gadhe bech ke so rahe the ?

not such a great thought to pass the blame of farmers' suicide on WB eh ? apne ghar me chor aur bahar dhindhor ?? WB do not have such a great leverage inside indian countryside to cause suicides. it is our neglect and bad governance which does the trick.

my point is that non-exchequer funding is superior for infrastructure projects. and that also leaves some funds with the govt so that next time a farmer commits suicide, they cannot blame anyone else ...

WB insisted farmers take on expensive seeds as a condition of a soft loan.

The farmers could not pay them back......:ohno: All in all horrible horrible management from the WB.what i am trying to say is that WB can goof up royally many times even if their intention might have been good. Though some are accusing them of being a front of the GM seed lobbyists.



While the metro cannot be taken back per say. MMDRA cannot pay back then they means the cities credit history is ruined. Its like somebody defaulting on credit card debt. You dont get any money in the future. that would be IMO extremely short sighted and Mumbai need ways more money metro aside in many things from the power grid to desalination plant.


Most off the network involves 9 car trains. They are converting them all to 12 and then to 15 in near future. However in some routes on fast trains they can expand them to even 20 by extending the platform. If IR was efficient we would have seen a 20 config train already by now.Frequency is 3min in rush hour. That can be cut down to 1 min with improved signalling and extra tracks. So even on suburban a hell of a lot can still be done. Even average speed can be increased upto 10km per hour.


What the metro is going to do is

(a) cover areas in the city and suburbs, which dont have nearby railway stations (ie within a one km radius). Especially the point from CST/Churchgate to Colaba. They really need to start building from the Colaba end and open the section from CST/churchgate to Colaba. People can take a local+metro to cover that area than take the bus after getting down at CST.

(b) increase capacity of the transport system


But the backbone regardless of how much the metro grows is the suburban.

why friend you have not read about the World Bank and Viderbha suicides....

and about the gentem idea


that actually sounds good. AC class + normal class plus second class.

Only issue again with that is if too many people subscribe to the ac travel then I see big issues in closing doors.Nirax, the suburban lines are already built. It you dont need to do some major construction on them. Hence people dont mind it. Cause the pain is over with that.

thanks for complements. idea came to me when somebody told delhi transport is better and will remain so forever.. and it doesnt make sense to make metro parallel to local rail lines - mumbai will be left with no land other than tracks :)

they thought bangalore volvo will never make profit. but it catered to an audience who wouldnt have used buses, and b'lore traffic reduced. i know there are many people in mumbai will never use local train even in first class..

it is sure a nice idea ... only hitch is that we already have 12 car trains (to be increased to 15 cars - please correct me if i am wrong) and all jam packed. the peak frequency is maximum possible already. so the locals are saturated ... any more than that and we will hear of rampant failures and risk to life (as if it isn't already)

so a new mass transit is urgently needed ... and a high capacity one like the locals ... and one which is built in reasonable time ... and one which costs reasonable money ... i do not see any mode of transport other than the one which is already being constructed which fits the bill. granted it is not going to be as high capacity as the locals coz they are std guage (locals are broad guage) but given the constraints of getting readily available technology here too we have essentially one option. and guess what ... we are already pursuing that.

now that leaves me confused as to why mumbaikars are complaining ... even more so when construction has already started ... why such a big clamor for u/g now ... ab tak kya kaan me tel daal ke gadhe bech ke so rahe the ?

2 ac coaches should be enough, fares should be kept high. no point in increasing coaches, instead frequency should be increased - take clue from metro - shorter but runs every 3 min.. i suggested this to hyderabd mmts and chennai mrts too :)

Source (http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report_metro-ii-work-to-start-early-2011_1466329)
Reliance Infrastructure is planning to start construction of the second metro project in Mumbai by early 2011, said KP Maheshwari, head of the metro division of the company. The 32km line will run from Charkop to Mankhurd via Bandra with 27 stations.

The Mumbai Metropolitan Region Development Authority is thinking of extending the line to Dahisar and the company has in principle agreed to the move. “We have completed the preliminary engineering and design and the topographical and geo-technical surveys and we should begin construction in the first quarter of calendar year 2011,” said Maheshwari on a conference call on Saturday.

Reliance Infra, which had bagged the Rs11,500 crore build-operate-transfer project in August 2009 in consortium with group company Reliance Communications and Canadian firm SNC Lavalin Inc, completed the fund tie-up for a debt of Rs7,000 crore for the project last month. The project will get a viability gap funding of Rs2,300 crore from the state government.

The project, tipped to be completed by 2015, has a concession period of 35 years with an extension of 10 years.

Reliance Infra is also developing Mumbai metro-I on the Versova-Andheri-Ghatkopar (VAG) corridor, which is set to be commissioned next year, and the Airport Express Line of Delhi metro.

The latter was to be completed on August 31 in time for the Commonwealth Games but was not leading to the Delhi Metro Railway Corporation (DMRC), levying a Rs20-crore penalty on Delhi Airport Express Metro Pvt Ltd (DAEMPL), Reliance Infra’s subsidiary. The company is hopeful of starting the line later this month.

For the quarter ended September 30, Reliance Infra’s net profit and operating income rose 11% and 2% to Rs360 crore and Rs4,043 crore respectively, from a year ago.

if wishes were horses we would .... still walk !!

it is not just about platform extension which is one issue but about a huge unmanageable crowd on the stations if you increase to 20 coaches (are you serious ?) .. on top of that with a frequency of 1 minute ... i wont even suggest 15 coaches ... as such locals serve a very narrow strip ... only two pathways .. and yeah i know that mumbai is linear but for God's sake it is not a spaghetti .. not yet at least !

Mumbai needs many more interconnections and routes ... that is why metro is needed ... locals will carry the lions share till metro network comes up in full glory ... after that the pressure on locals will reduce allowing for things like AC coaches. i feel until that we shd let the locals run pretty much as it is (meaning no mucking around with ACs etc)

While the metro cannot be taken back per say. MMDRA cannot pay back then they means the cities credit history is ruined. Its like somebody defaulting on credit card debt. You dont get any money in the future. that would be IMO extremely short sighted and Mumbai need ways more money metro aside in many things from the power grid to desalination plant.


no i was not advocating credit default ... i was just pointing out that even in extreme scenario the loss is not being borne by taxpayers. though things like 'not getting any money in future' are bugaboos ... raised by them to fall everybody in line. the truth is they have truckloads of money and few investible opportunities ... with coming QE2 the problem is going to be 10 times more ... they do not recognize that it is their biological clock ticking, not any inherent disability in their economy. all this stimulus is ultimately going to land up on our (and other like us) shores in the form of hot money (in stocks) and not so hot money (as loans) ...

what we need is a proactive policy to get those easy funds before anyone ... sooner or later they are going to reconcile with their ticking biological clock and this easy flow of money will stop ... it is a one time chance ... but our agencies are foolish beyond words ... they still hanker for govt money ... they make me feel almost ashamed that i live in a place governed by such rank idiots.

^^
and in case i did not point out, our own smart chap MMS lauded QE2 fulsome, much to the consternation of many oldies like Germany and Japan ... MMS sure knows economics, if not governance and politics !

MMS = Man Mohan Singh

and just in case someone thinks that opposition is smart here is a reality check (and to say that this guy was our finance minster) --

14 Nov, 2010, 03.50AM IST, Yashwant Sinha,
India should stop taking soft loans
-------------------------------------------------
So far as bilateral aid is concerned, we have already reduced the list of countries from whom we take grants. It has been the same policy from the time of the NDA government. Considering India’s internal resources and foreign exchange reserves, aids worth a few billion dollars from the World Bank or Asian Development Bank really does not matter. Even Official Development Assistance (ODA) from Japan is becoming irrelevant. We should stop taking grants or such soft loans like ODA.
------------------------------------------------
full link = http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/features/sunday-et/special-report/India-should-stop-taking-soft-loans/articleshow/6922478.cms

the saving grace is that AB Vajpayee sacked him in the final year and put Jaswant Singh in charge ... ABV also understood economics !

Source (http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report_metro-ii-work-to-start-early-2011_1466329)

27 stations in 32 km line means it will take minimum 45 min to reach one end to another.

and just in case someone thinks that opposition is smart here is a reality check (and to say that this guy was our finance minster) --

14 Nov, 2010, 03.50AM IST, Yashwant Sinha,
India should stop taking soft loans
-------------------------------------------------
So far as bilateral aid is concerned, we have already reduced the list of countries from whom we take grants. It has been the same policy from the time of the NDA government. Considering India’s internal resources and foreign exchange reserves, aids worth a few billion dollars from the World Bank or Asian Development Bank really does not matter. Even Official Development Assistance (ODA) from Japan is becoming irrelevant. We should stop taking grants or such soft loans like ODA.
------------------------------------------------
full link = http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/features/sunday-et/special-report/India-should-stop-taking-soft-loans/articleshow/6922478.cms

the saving grace is that AB Vajpayee sacked him in the final year and put Jaswant Singh in charge ... ABV also understood economics !

And why was he saying these things?

Could he have meant that the government was capable of raising the capital on its own instead of going for external grants. Did he also oppose any soft loans from external agencies?

sorry for going off topic.

27 stations in 32 km line means it will take minimum 45 min to reach one end to another.

yeah even i dont understand the rational of having so many stations. In the metro 1 site they have put down average speed of 30 km per hour. So i think we can say this is going to take about 1 hour give or take 5min for this one end to end.


sounds quite dumb to me atleast.


the objective is to get from one point to another as quickly and efficiently as possible.


So my question to the experts out there.

why do you need so many stations close together?


Why not have 2 km between stations so each station covers an area of 1 sqaure km? 1km is only 12minutes to walk.(i walk 1km in about 8minutes normal)

while i am sure you can have an average speed of 45-50km per hour with stations 2km apart. Instead of 30km per hour which i am guessing this will achieve. I notice metro 1 has the similar layout and is taking 23 minute for 11.4km. (about 30km per hour) which 11 stations


waiting for the people in the know to answer this. Cause in a city like mumbai which is linear in shape it seems to me that speed is more of an important factor than with some other cities which are circular in spread and usually the max distance from one end of the city to another is 25km, unlike greater mumbai where the distance is about 50km from dahisar to colaba)

I dont want to spend 2 hours commuting in an air conditioned metro. Rather sqeeze in a fast travelling suburban. (which should be be able to travel at 60km per hour (fast trains) pretty soon as a result of change to AC-DC ) and travel the same distance in 1 hour.

to put it bluntly in terms people can understand

I live in mulund east.

In rush hour


it takes me about 8min to walk mulund east station.

I have to wait for 5min before a fast train arrives.

It takes 40min to reach CST

I have to take a bus which usually all things added takes about 35min to reach Colaba from CST station as the bus usually gets stuck in traffic. Plus the walk to the space i want.


So in total it currently takes me about 1 hour and 30min to reach the tip of Colaba from my house in mulund in rush hour.


The speed at which the metro goes it would add another 10-15min to my commute.....

Why can't we have four-track metros then? If this is not going to solve any issue but rather add time to commute.

well all this solves is volume. Not the time of commute....

Plus it would not be an issue if property rates are ok. But which more and more people moving out of the city or to the outskirts cause they cant afford it, commute is going to be pretty.


I get a feeling the metro is just to maintain the status quo rather than actually improving things.



I dont know, maybe they can have fast and slow trains in the metro as well to overcome it. Dont know if thats possible.

to basically i calculated

person wanting to go from charkop to colaba

if he/she takes only metro

charkop to bandra to colaba is by current metro routes about 35km. Works out with changes from station to station to be about 1 hour and 10 minutes.

Bandra to Colaba will be 50minutes station to station factoring in frequency.

Bandra to Nariman point will take about 45min by metro plus 15 minute walk covers all of nariman point.

About 30min by suburban fast to churchgate plus 20min walk covers all of nariman point.



So technically taking the suburban fast is actually cheaper and quicker option.



It works out the same on the eastern side.

A shit loads of jobs are concentrated in ballard estate and fort.

Its quicker for me to take suburban fast Mulund to CST +walk more than take Mulund-Ghatkopar-flora Fountain metro +walk less.


even mumbai metro 1.

fast suburban Mulund to Dadar to Andheri (50min) > Mulund to ghatkopar suburban fast + metro to andheri (55min)

that last fact is really sad if true. it means people will only be using metro as a feeder, which kills the purpose of acting as a counterpart for suburban. commuters will stick to locals and then maybe switch to metro as opposed to bus routes. WE NEED FAST TRACKS. theres no other way to improve the situation.

bharatiya the basic fact is that if IR get their act together than the fast suburbans can travel with an average speed of 60km per hour and at a much increased frequency throughout the day.

they are currently travelling at 50km per hour and good frequency only in rush hour.


But as i said, if IR raises its game the metro will become a feeder for areas not served by the suburban


I dont even think a metro is needed on the eastern side when tracks 5 and 6 come into play.Thats going to add a lot of capacity and increase frequency drastically.



So whats going to happen in reality is.

I want to get from mulund to colaba.

Mulund to CST-fast sububran +metro to Colaba.



this is exactly why IMO they need first finish the bandra to kurla link on line 2 and start work on the Colaba to Nariman point of the line in metro 2.

The metro will still be used to cover area which were not covered by the suburban. But I think Metro will be in direct competition with BEST rather than the locals.

what you're saying then is essentially that Metro will provide better accessibility and connection to the faster and more efficient for long distance system, which in reality is and will remain the backbone of the city. this means that everyone will continue to use the locals, and therefor they will remain overcrowded.

do you think it is possible ichi that IR can increase their service to the point that the crowd is actually manageable and that years down the road when metro/monorail are fully implemented, we can have closing doors and AC like any other world class transport system?

also, if Metro is directly competing with BEST then whats the point in even having monorail?

to serve less dense areas? it seems that the route between chembur and wadala is not very crowded..

what you're saying then is essentially that Metro will provide better accessibility and connection to the faster and more efficient for long distance system, which in reality is and will remain the backbone of the city. this means that everyone will continue to use the locals, and therefor they will remain overcrowded.

do you think it is possible ichi that IR can increase their service to the point that the crowd is actually manageable and that years down the road when metro/monorail are fully implemented, we can have closing doors and AC like any other world class transport system?

+1 on the first part.


the second one.


It depends how much they can extend those platforms. Places like Masjid already have issues with slow trains stopping twice in the 12 coach config.


the stations like for eg mulund or thane can be extended enough for even 20 coach trains. However there is no chance of extension in some of the stations in sobo. What they can do is increase frequency of fast trains to 1 min on multiple tracks in rush hour and 5min outside rush hour. For that they need to heavily invest in signalling.



What should be done is better planning on the jobs front. BKC needs to be heavily promoted and built upon to generate many more jobs due to its central location rather than the tip of sobo.


Ie they need to make jobs more central and spread around BKC-Dadar-Wadala. Soo much concentration in sobo atm.


A well managed transport system, solution lay in the fact that job creation needs to be in a centrally located place in Mumbai MMR rather than on the tip.BKC become the premier CBD with metro passing right through it I hope will be enough to alter the pattern of commute.

Ie rather than all travelling in one direction, we need half to travel north south and the other half to travel south north.....


I notice with the spread of malls I dont need to travel into the city for good cinema halls. I do all my local shopping in Mulund (nirmal lifestyles) and dont ever need to use the train other than for work or in the past commuting to college(the bulk of whom are in dadar-matunga-sion thankgod!!!). People use the trains for work mostly.Gone are the days of my parents when they had to travel all the way to sobo to watch a film at Metro cinema :) on weekends.....

Managing the growing numbers without improving layout and location of commericl areas is like spitting in the wind

Well then the only solution is to increase the number of options with which we commute.

In addition to centralizing Mumbai as much as possible by creating a business district in midtown (Dadar) to BKC we will be encompassing more of South Bombay as well as tapping into the suburbs, we need to provide more means of getting there in the same amount of time as you do with locals.

Unlike most cities around the world in which the broad gauge long distance system is like the more expensive choice for commuters living outside the actual city or closer to the limits ie. Navi Mumbai, Thane, Mulund, Panvel, Borivali, Virar and other more far flung areas, we use this system as our Metro and RRTS. This is mainly because of the lack of space which means the city will need a unique solution.

But as of now the locals alone are not enough to be the primary means of transport, in terms of accessibility this issue is being addressed by Metro and Monorail. However, the capacity of a system can only be increased so much before another means of transport becomes necessary.

But I think Metro will be in direct competition with BEST rather than the locals.


that is true ... and i hope they also give the autos and taxis a run for their money ...

Ie they need to make jobs more central and spread around BKC-Dadar-Wadala. Soo much concentration in sobo atm.


A well managed transport system, solution lay in the fact that job creation needs to be in a centrally located place in Mumbai MMR rather than on the tip.BKC become the premier CBD with metro passing right through it I hope will be enough to alter the pattern of commute.


i guess that is already happening ... SoBo is mostly a banking hub and that too the PSB ones ... for ex, ICICI is either (nominally) based out of mumbai (they r in Vadodara) or (for all practical purposes) in BKC... even NSE is not based in SoBo ... last heard Reliance is also mulling to move out to NaviM .. and i guess HUL has moved out already. ... AirIndia is also planning to move out to Delhi, which leaves us with the funny situation that AirIndia building will have no AirIndia (if they continue to exist after all !)

the newer things like Bharat Diamond Bourse has no connection with SoBo.

i feel Colaba shd be left for Navy ... Mumbai needs to have a strong Naval base ... they had to relocate much of their stuff to Karwar due to space crunch ... but given the global security structure a strong navy is essential for india and it is advisable to have a major naval base in mumbai .. and colaba is ideal for that as it is surrounded by sea ... it goes without saying that you need a sea for navy but not for the banks ...

to MeMumbaikar ::

Are you IchiMaruGin1 ? where do you work in Colaba ? just curious .. no offense

i guess that is already happening ... SoBo is mostly a banking hub and that too the PSB ones ... for ex, ICICI is either (nominally) based out of mumbai (they r in Vadodara) or (for all practical purposes) in BKC... even NSE is not based in SoBo ... last heard Reliance is also mulling to move out to NaviM .. and i guess HUL has moved out already. ... AirIndia is also planning to move out to Delhi, which leaves us with the funny situation that AirIndia building will have no AirIndia (if they continue to exist after all !)


ICICI, Bank of Baroda, HDFC, IDBI, SBI, Axis Bank etc all major bank is based(HQ) in Mumbai

about ICICI and BoB there registered office in Vadodara.

Reliance will have to pay great price if they want to move out side Navi Mumbai, why just to go DAKC, will understand how huge investment is they had made there.

About HUL they are still in Mumbai
Source
http://www.hul.co.in/resource/contact/default.aspx

I only heard that air india moved there base from Mumbai airport to Delhi but about there HQ, I never heard anything.

Anyways here is the list of companies in Mumbai(not all but big ones)
source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Companies_based_in_Mumbai

i was talking about SoBo vs non-SoBo not Mumbai vs non-Mumbai ... but since you took the wrong signal (which is actually right) let me elaborate ...

it is part of a larger shift ... out of mumbai as well as out of SoBo ... all the textile mills who were mostly based in Dadar/Parel are shut ... textile industry as a whole has moved totally out of mumbai (maybe even maharashtra) ... and that is a good thing ... good for mumbai as well as india as well as the places which got those industries ...

it is the same relentless logic which sees back office work moving from Kansas to Bangalore will also see work moving out of Colaba to (say) Cochin ... the logic is irrefutable ... you do not need a tony expensive address to do back office work. it can be relocated to cheaper locations ... Reliance will only gain if they shift ... they have enormous wealth locked into the maker towers which can be unlocked to useful purpose. remember that Coca-Cola india which initially started from Mumbai relocated to Delhi 15 years back. HUL will also move out of SoBo (if not Mumbai) if they havent already, sooner or later ... their profit margins are already under pressure in a hyper competitive india ..

the navy should move out as well. having large naval installations in the heart of a city is a big security risk. besides its occupying prime land that can be of tremendous use to the city

it is of strategic importance not for the banks which occupy this land but becoz there is a natural harbor ... probably one of the best natural ports in India .. that is why it is also good for navy to anchor ... banks can move out to any place for that matter.

and what twisted logic tells you that navy causes it to be a security risk ? i am amazed by this illogic ... if push comes to shove, it is navy which will protect mumbai rather than the occupants of the 'prime land'

ey? large defence establishments are primary targets for any aggressor (whether a state or individuals). having india's largest naval base in the middle of the action did not help bombay in 26/11. the navy might is not of use for protecting a city from most attacks and is certainly not needed to be located in its heart. they can very well move across the harbour to the mainland if they want to be near bombay. karwar will hopefully take most of the load off bombay. bombay port too needs to be shut down, as was promised by the authorities in the late 80s

its much easier to shift a naval base than your financial capital i can assure you. banks cant just go 'anywhere else'. they need to be within an ecosystem

Source (http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report_metro-ii-work-to-start-early-2011_1466329)

Jackasses should concentrate on finishing the VAG corridor first and also fix the mess they created on the roads underneath before even thinking of line 2.

With the amount of delays in involved in line 1 there is no way these idiots should even think of being able to finish line 2 before 2015. Are they even sure if it going to be underground, above ground or one on top of the other with the way plans are changing on a weekly basis.

to basically i calculated

person wanting to go from charkop to colaba

if he/she takes only metro

charkop to bandra to colaba is by current metro routes about 35km. Works out with changes from station to station to be about 1 hour and 10 minutes.

Bandra to Colaba will be 50minutes station to station factoring in frequency.

Bandra to Nariman point will take about 45min by metro plus 15 minute walk covers all of nariman point.

About 30min by suburban fast to churchgate plus 20min walk covers all of nariman point.



So technically taking the suburban fast is actually cheaper and quicker option.



It works out the same on the eastern side.

A shit loads of jobs are concentrated in ballard estate and fort.

Its quicker for me to take suburban fast Mulund to CST +walk more than take Mulund-Ghatkopar-flora Fountain metro +walk less.


even mumbai metro 1.

fast suburban Mulund to Dadar to Andheri (50min) > Mulund to ghatkopar suburban fast + metro to andheri (55min)

This might be true for traffic patterns 5 years back. Lots of jobs have already moved to BKC/Parel/Andheri. Metro tries to connect to the offices directly(BKC and Andheri especially).

Moreover , you are basing your opinion on central line. It is not very easy to access western line stations (where almost 50-60% of population resides) from say Link road in the west or the regions east of WEH. A person from Charkop can rech his office in BKC/Lower Parel or Andheri E directly with maximum of 1 change (at a greater comfort).

And not all the traffic is office traffic. Try to travel on Link road/Linking road at any time of the day between 10 AM and 1 AM (in the night), you would see the traffic it generates.

Nevertheless, four tracks with a fast line similar to locals will be great considering Mumbai's vertical spread and long distances.

27 stations in 32 km line means it will take minimum 45 min to reach one end to another.

It should be around 55 min from Delhi metro experience.

Borivali to Churchgate is around 32km as well and it takes around an hour to travel in suburban trains.

Borivali to Churchgate is around 32km as well and it takes around an hour to travel in suburban trains.

on a slow train

about 40min on a fast.

Plus the locals are speeding up by the day cutting off minute by minute...

ey? large defence establishments are primary targets for any aggressor (whether a state or individuals). having india's largest naval base in the middle of the action did not help bombay in 26/11. the navy might is not of use for protecting a city from most attacks and is certainly not needed to be located in its heart. they can very well move across the harbour to the mainland if they want to be near bombay. karwar will hopefully take most of the load off bombay. bombay port too needs to be shut down, as was promised by the authorities in the late 80s

its much easier to shift a naval base than your financial capital i can assure you. banks cant just go 'anywhere else'. they need to be within an ecosystem

that reminds me of the old dictum

common sense is most uncommon ! what will navy do if you move them accross the harbor ? do you think an aircraft carrier can anchor on a sandy sunny beach.

kabhi kabhi thoda common sense apply kar le yaar

you do know that bombay's biggest port is across the harbour on the mainland dont you? and an even bigger port is coming up at rewas? or are you just not well informed?

^ so what are you proposing? they move mazagaon docks works there?

I agree with you that they move out of Navy Nagar. The armed forced should not be sitting in such prime land which IMO should be used for commercial purposes.


Mumbai: The first-ever metro in the city will put a bit of a hole in your pockets. Even before the 11-km elevated route starts its maiden journey, the fares are going to be hiked by 10%.

Officials of the Mumbai Metropolitan Region Development Authority (MMRDA), the agency constructing the route, have justified the hike saying it will still remain much lower as compared to the general rate of inflation.

Metropolitan commissioner Ratnakar Gaikwad on Tuesday briefed the media about the progress of the 11-km long Versova-Andheri-Ghatkopar (VAG) route. While claiming that the route, which is being constructed by the consortium led by Reliance Infrastructure, will be completed by June 2011, he agreed that the first revision of fares (which as per the agreement between MMRDA and Reliance Infrastructure is to be done every three years) will be applicable before the metro starts running. "We have to understand that the Mumbai Metro will be the cheapest in the world. Even if the first fare revision is applicable, the minimum fare will still be around Rs11," he said.

As per the revision, the concessioner (R-Infra) is to increase the fares by around 10% every fourth year of the metro running. Since the agreement was signed in February 2008, the fourth year of the concession period begins in February 2011. The fare on the VAG corridor will be Rs6 up to first three km, Rs8 for a distance between three and eight km and Rs10 for more than eight km.

"This is the first public-private partnership metro project in the world. We are proud to say that we will run the metro next year," said Gaikwad. He added that the DN Nagar car depot will be ready by December 2010 and all the 24 coaches of the first metro will be delivered by March 2011. However, officials agreed that the Andheri rail overbridge has some issues to be sorted out.


Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/mumbai-city-metro-fare-to-rise-even-before-it-starts-64323?cp




actually Rs10 for 11.4 km seems like a fair fare price. Not as expensive as some were expecting like Mr Sreedharan




Dare i say cheaper per km than Delhi metro?

Dare i say cheaper per km than Delhi metro?

DM has min Rs. 8/- fare, so yes its cheaper :)

Hope they maintain MM in good shape with that small money.

well if he sticks to the 10% increase every 4 years then the price of the ticket will drop in real terms with respect to rising inflation....

I sure it will be cheaper for pass holders.


Guess that route has the volume to keep the ticket price low.Trains are going to be packed from day 1 and significantly packed even outside rush hour.

So the volume of commuters keeps the price down.

on a slow train

about 40min on a fast.

Plus the locals are speeding up by the day cutting off minute by minute...

Yeah. On a fast train its probably 40 minutes.

on a slow train

about 40min on a fast.

Plus the locals are speeding up by the day cutting off minute by minute...

Yeah. On a fast train its probably 40 minutes.

There was a news report about an extension of Metro (underground) in New York for a tiny 2 km.

The price quoted was $2 billion, or 9,000 crores!!! How is it so much more expensive?

There was a news report about an extension of Metro (underground) in New York for a tiny 2 km.

The price quoted was $2 billion, or 9,000 crores!!! How is it so much more expensive?

I guess construction is very very expensive in US but I think the main cause of such high price would be due to land and congestion of high-rises in the area !!
:)

why would congestion of high-rises matter for an underground metro

its probably because it may have to be deep underground or buildings may have to be acquired for metro stations or something totally different

Union labor in NYC is VERY expensive.