Same, article just a little different from the TBT rather than the SPT.

Downtown Life Is About To Begin
By: Michael Van Sickler
Article Link (http://www.tbt.com/tampabay/news/article37448.ece)

http://www.tbt.com/multimedia/archive/00053/tbd_skypointminder03_53325d.jpghttp://www.tbt.com/multimedia/archive/00053/tbd_skypoint0319_53324d.jpg

he view from Bobby Neale's home in Land O'Lakes is a field of cows.

From his Brandon townhouse, Ian Markowitz scans a retention pond.

Rock Scaglione looks out his window in Seminole Heights and sees a street of bungalows.

In the coming weeks, they will swap these standard Tampa Bay neighborhood backdrops for high rise urban chic.

By late April, Neale, Markowitz, Scaglione and a few hundred soon-to-be neighbors will be part of a historic migration to downtown's first major offering of urban living: 777 Ashley Drive.

SkyPoint, the $80-million, 32-story tower with 381 condos, is the biggest residential high-rise in downtown's history. Its residents will pioneer a way of life in a downtown known for its office towers, parking lots and deserted after-hours streets.

"Downtown is very transitional," Neale said. "Sometimes it's pretty vacant. But with all the things that are projected to come, I just see it getting better and better."

Will this experiment work?

SkyPoint's developers are betting it will.

Novare Group, an Atlanta company, and Intown Group, a local firm, recently started building Element, a 34-story condo tower, across from SkyPoint along Franklin Street. On Thursday, they will seek zoning approval for Twelve, another tower on Ashley Drive. Part boutique hotel, part condo, it would be the tallest yet at 47 stories.

So who exactly are the people moving into these condos, which fetch between the $170,000s (for the 650-square-foot units) to more than $500,000?

Downtown will soon find out. The target market for Novare and Intown's projects are those between 25 and 40.

Scaglione of Seminole Heights fits the profile. He's 29 and single. He works at a human resources firm. He'll be moving into a one-bedroom condo on the 13th floor that he paid $200,000 for in 2005.

"I envision coming home from work, maybe working out, finding a restaurant on foot, getting entertained without having to hop into a car" Scaglione said. "I grew up in Tampa, and know all about downtown not having a lot going on. This is all pretty exciting."

On Thursday, they will seek zoning approval for Twelve, another tower on Ashley Drive. Part boutique hotel, part condo, it would be the tallest yet at 47 stories.

This stood out to me the most in the article. Pretty intense cluster if all 3 end up coming to fruition. Ranging in hight from 32 to 47 stories...that end of downtown will definitely have a presence.

This stood out to me the most in the article. Pretty intense cluster if all 3 end up coming to fruition. Ranging in hight from 32 to 47 stories...that end of downtown will definitely have a presence.

Novare also owns the rights to the Gold Bank Building to the South of Skypoint, and the Times article says they have a 4th project pending next to Skypoint.

Skyline wise and pedestrain wise it will definitley be a cluster to write home about.

At 47 stories, TWELVE would be the tallest Novare to date. 360 and The Atlantic come close, but not quite.

OK, while we're yet to see what TWELVE is going to be (render wise)...

Does anyone see a problem with the 4 (yes - even the gold bank site) Novare buildings right next to each other? Yes, we want density, yes -- we want a 24/7 down...

But do we want 3, potentially 4 buildings (and 5 if you count the Wood Partner's building that was slated for the Maas block) that look similar (or are replicas with different colors) that close to each other? This isn't row houses or brownstones - these are skyscrapers.

I hope they have a unique design for TWELVE to be unveiled. Something original, daunting and jaw dropping gorgeous.

I think that 3630 Peachtree shows they can do different styles.

http://www.novaregroup.com/images/portfolio/3630.jpg

Honestly, I do not mind four, five, or even six similar looking buildings. The buildings look good, and fit in nicely with the CBD. Also, they are so different from what is being built in Channelside and further south with Trump and Tampa Tower, that we are developing distinct districts within the downtown.

Look at Vancouver. Similar buildings can compliment each other wonderfully.

I like how they interviewed a relative of a Tampa Gangster, Scaglione, lol
I'm excied for Twelve, what block is it set to be built on? The Gold Bank?
I don't really like that building.

I believe it's in Novare's best interest to vary them somewhat. Besides, if not Novare and their almost cookie-cutter designs, then what, nothing (in that part of town? I'll the Novare work - they've certainly demonstrated an aptitiude to get it done and the savvy to make them look good. If Novare does not, developers-to-follow (and there will be more) will provide the variety.

TWELVE is slated on the block immediately to the north of Skypoint (and immediately west of Element).

I'm excied for Twelve, what block is it set to be built on? The Gold Bank?
I don't really like that building.

TWELVE is proposed on the block North of Skypoint, and Gold Bank is on the block South of Skypoint.

OK, while we're yet to see what TWELVE is going to be (render wise)...

Does anyone see a problem with the 4 (yes - even the gold bank site) Novare buildings right next to each other? Yes, we want density, yes -- we want a 24/7 down...

But do we want 3, potentially 4 buildings (and 5 if you count the Wood Partner's building that was slated for the Maas block) that look similar (or are replicas with different colors) that close to each other? This isn't row houses or brownstones - these are skyscrapers.

I hope they have a unique design for TWELVE to be unveiled. Something original, daunting and jaw dropping gorgeous.


Well if you look at TWELVE projects they are usually different designs. Also, it seems like all of Navare's more recent projects other then maybe Element, have been different. For example look at the rendering Jonkee posted, and The Atlantic project which is only a story shorter then the TWELVE proposal. Either way it will be an excellent cluster, and like I've siad before, it's not like the Novare projects are ugly. But we should just wait until the 22nd, or whenever we get the renderings on TWELVE, to find out.:)

Here's Atlantic, it loses the garage pedestal look that Novare grooves on. 46 stories, so as FloridaFuture said, just one floor lower than TWELVE.

http://www.novaregroup.com/images/portfolio/atlantic.jpg

Just, my opinion but I would like to see something more along the lines of 100 North Tampa. Imagine how spectacular the penthouses would be with gothic inspired dormers at 47 stories.

Just, my opinion but I would like to see something more along the lines of 100 North Tampa. Imagine how spectacular the penthouses would be with gothic inspired dormers at 47 stories.
Ya! But to keep the repativeness down, maybe if they made a more brickish skyscraper with that it would be better for our skyline.

If you guys remember, Novare's proposal for Channelside looks very different than Skypoint and Element. Just a hunch, but I'm predicting that the Twelve will certainly look unique to DT Tampa.

I've said it before, but I'd be thrilled if Novare would purchase the Kress block and do the redevelopment there. They did a project about 6 years ago in Atlanta called Metropolis that was two towers flanking a shorter building in the middle. If you look at the finished product - http://www.novaregroup.com/portfolio_metropolis.html - I think this design might lend itself well to the Kress building(s). :)

Something along those lines would certainly work, at this point I'm open to almost anything so long as it gets some crews in the building to restore it while it is still salvagable. In walking around down there and seeing all the broken windows and such you can only imagine the amount of water and debris which is probably rotting it away one day at a time.

Official thread for the project so we're not speculating in the Skypoint and Element condo threads. Plus, with everything set to be unveiled (in part) this week with the council meeting, I figured TWELVE could use it's own home on SSC's Tampa/St. Pete forum :)

What time is the meeting set for on Thursday?

^zoning hearings are at 6 perhaps?

iirc, that's how such thursdays usually go.

It is at the Verizon Building right? What floor?

It is at the Verizon Building right? What floor?

Isn't at the Old City Hall?

^yep. 3rd floor.

I recommend the stairs. ;)

Third floor of the City Hall building?

yes dude.... The historic one that doesn't look like a prison.

You could have found this out in a whopping 20 seconds with a simple web search for "tampa city council meeting directions".:nuts:

I am sorry, but I was just asking a question.

no need to apologize. it's funny is all.

You can also watch it online or on CCTV. Channel 15 on Brighthouse.

http://www.tampagov.net/dept_Cable_Communications/cttv/webcast.asp?cscRedirectID=227

I think I'll probably attend in person, as long as Thursday goes smoothly. I'm anxious to see TWELVE. On that note, I'm going to be in Atlanta in the next few weeks and I plan on staying at TWELVE Atlantic Station. If that works out I'll be sure to take some pics. I'm sure there will be some similarities. The website alone is superior to most hotels (which technically doesn't take a whole lot....).

You can also watch it online or on CCTV. Channel 15 on Brighthouse.

http://www.tampagov.net/dept_Cable_Communications/cttv/webcast.asp?cscRedirectID=227

I think I'll probably attend in person, as long as Thursday goes smoothly. I'm anxious to see TWELVE. On that note, I'm going to be in Atlanta in the next few weeks and I plan on staying at TWELVE Atlantic Station. If that works out I'll be sure to take some pics. I'm sure there will be some similarities. The website alone is superior to most hotels (which technically doesn't take a whole lot....).

Funny, we are going to be up in Atlanta next week as well. I'm hoping to get some good photos and scope out many of the Novare properties.

I was going to do it around the 1st, but all the hotels were insane (TWELVE was booked). Did more looking around, the Final Four was in town. ha. Go figure. So I'm adjusting a few days.

^lol... I was going to ask about that... I have people I know who are coming here from there to get away...

The good thing is after the FF leaves town there is lots of availability. Luckily it's a for fun trip, so dates are flexible.

I was going to do it around the 1st, but all the hotels were insane (TWELVE was booked). Did more looking around, the Final Four was in town. ha. Go figure. So I'm adjusting a few days.

We are going to be staying out in Carrollton, fairly west of Atlanta where our customer has their primary location and then meeting with a model we do quite a bit of work with down in Newnan, GA which is to the south west so aside from going into Atlanta proper to visit the Aquarium and to check out some of the Novare projects I think we will be pretty insulated from march madness.

We are going to be staying out in Carrollton, fairly west of Atlanta where our customer has their primary location and then meeting with a model we do quite a bit of work with down in Newnan, GA which is to the south west so aside from going into Atlanta proper to visit the Aquarium and to check out some of the Novare projects I think we will be pretty insulated from march madness.

You shouldn't have any problems. I'm going to be in midtown, which I'm sure will be a hot mess. So I'll just head up a few days later. Novare has a ton of projects in Atlanta so I'm sure I'll check out at least a few (and hopefully stay in TWELVE).

Approved. The council kept gushing about the project, thank you thank you thank you. Sorry about the quality of the pics, what can you expect from photos taken of a TV?

http://www.jongales.com/pics/twelve/twelve-tampa-street.jpg

http://www.jongales.com/pics/twelve/twelve-tampa.jpg

Wow this is actually a really nice building!!!

Nice job Jonkee!

Any word on any of the other projects? Like the Teleconference Center or Vancover Development tower? Hopefully there will be a higher quality rendering in the paper tomorrow.

Anyway I love how the garage is covered and doesn't look like Element and Skypoint's garage. That will help out the streetscape a lot. Also the top looks great too. Something a little more creative for Tampa on top.

Awesome! Cannot wait to see some higher quality renderings.

It's a really busy meeting tonight, the only interesting project so far has been TWELVE. When they swore everyone in I heard a few people in front of mics comment "wow". Pretty much the entire room stood up.

A few notes from their presentation.

Both this building and Element will have floors dedicated to TECO parking as we knew, but what I didn't know is that on evenings and weekends this parking will be available to the public. Very nice.

The restaurant is central to the project and Novare already has a name for it and is working with a restaurateur (though actual names weren't mentioned). There will be outside seating on the corner of Ashley and Cass.

The sidewalk along Cass (and I think Ashley) will be quite wide to prepare for a more pedestrian downtown.

The service entrances are on Polk St and will face SkyPoint's. Novare said it makes it easier and I'll buy that.

Prices were not mentioned but it's above SkyPoint/Element. Not super high-end, but Greg did note that the materials (I'm guessing stuff like the enclosed garage) were higher-end and pricing would reflect that. But thanks to the hotel there will be amenities not usually available at that tier. Stuff like valet, room service, etc.

^Sounds like Novare is doing a lot of nice things to go along with this project. Hopefully the wider sidewalk is where the outdoor dining is, I hate when tables get in the way of where I'm trying to walk, so I would assume a wider sidewalk is because of the outdoor dining.

I take back every friggin' negative thing I said about the massing of the Novare/In-town buildings. Holy HELL. I love that design.

While the base looks better far away than close up, the spire has me intrigued and thrilled at the same time... I love the look... We'll have to wait for the real rendering to come online but thanks a TON jonKnee for posting

Wow, this is simply amazing. Not really at all like the other 2 Novare towers in the area, nice height, good design... what more could you ask for?

Well Looks like they're filling up the empty blocks on Ashley Finally!!!

Wow, this is simply amazing. Not really at all like the other 2 Novare towers in the area, nice height, good design... what more could you ask for?

It isn't and yet it is... It's still the Parking-base-with-retail/units-above deal but the devil is in the details and how it's presented.

And of course, for those confused, the building will be running north to south, so Skypoint units will only be seeing the thin profile, while the Element condos (at the west end of that tower) will be facing a broad-side of the building.

Very nice...

Not a bad project at all...

They certainly struck the right nerve with council, though I think the design is pretty conservative with a whiff of "15 years ago", if you know what I mean...

But considering the prominence of this tower's location in the skyline, and how it will inevitably remain prominent for many years to come, I think it is just about as good as it's going to get for a project with considerable programmatic constraints. They basically had to play it safe, as that is the wisest solution, all things considered... Though I was there to speak on another project, I spoke in favor of the project on a whim (mainly because nobody else did, and I thought that was pretty lame to have no community support be voiced, when I know there is plenty of it... so yeah, anyone who watched.... the coughing fast talking guy was me)... I commended Novare on the effort with the design and their work in invigorating northern DT, and commended the City Council for what is turning out to be a fair eye for meeting the needs of developers in that end of town, while keeping the future of the neighborhood and city as their firstmost priority... Heck, even Councilwoman Alvarez woke up for a moment to crow about this one...

Hooray! Another fine quality building. I really dig that crown and base. It will nicely compliment and improve upon its neighbors Skypoint and Element.

Yes, the layout of the buildinds maximizes every unit's views. The wide side of each building always faces the thin side of another. They showed great foresight in planning this area :)

so yeah, anyone who watched.... the coughing fast talking guy was me)...

Heh, I thought that was you. Be careful, I could augment my previous photo gallery (the meeting is still stored on my DVR). :)

It's not like a shitload of people on the internet haven't seen my picture before...

of course, none of them lived like 10 minutes away...


ok, so what do you want? Be a mod? money? beer? WHAT?!?!?!


:D

That's awesome!! :banana:

I like it a lot. Very talll and unlike any other of Novare's projects. This is going to be a hell of a structure when it is finish. Being the tallest in Tampa will make it stick out so great in the skyline. I can't wait when construction starts. Did they mention anything about starting construction?

No, it will not be the tallest when completed. It is only 562ft...

It's funny, because if only half of what is proposed gets built, Tampa will be pretty dense an moderately tall. Not bad.

What's coolest is now I can draw this into the sketch of Tampa I was doing in Google Sketchup...

What an amazing project for the city. Knowing how Novare-intown operates, we should see construction begin within the year. Am I jumping the gun a little with that statement?

What an amazing project for the city. Knowing how Novare-intown operates, we should see construction begin within the year. Am I jumping the gun a little with that statement?

Novare really doesn't wait for much except for their current projects in the city. So when Element is topped out I think is when we'll start to see work beginning on TWELVE.

Novare really doesn't wait for much except for their current projects in the city. So when Element is topped out I think is when we'll start to see work beginning on TWELVE.

I'm thinking site work will probably begin much before Element tops out as well... Anyone know when Element is supposed to actually go vertical?

^Now there is also the Novare Channelside project that is already approved. I'm not sure if TWELVE will wait for that one too, or if they will try to get the hotel done first to compete with the other hotel projects.

Most likely, TWELVE will start way before Element is topped off. Look at Element, it took only a short period time from getting approved to starting construction. If anything, TWELVE will start by August-September. Atlanta has what, 5 projects u/c or completed and I don't think they waited after everyone to start another tower

^^ There are four u/c now with five already completed but they've never built more than one tower at a time in the same sub-market. I could see them building one downtown and one at Channellside at the same time.

I'm really liking this Twelve. Novare really seems to be stepping up their game at street level which for me it most important.

Most likely, TWELVE will start way before Element is topped off.
No, it is not most likely... It is a remote possibility at best.

Most likely, TWELVE will start way before Element is topped off. Look at Element, it took only a short period time from getting approved to starting construction. If anything, TWELVE will start by August-September. Atlanta has what, 5 projects u/c or completed and I don't think they waited after everyone to start another tower

The TWELVE project will not break ground until 2008. ;)

The TWELVE project will not break ground until 2008. ;)

I think you'll see it this fall.

Trump says TWELVE is going to start construction next week. And we all know Trump knows what he's talking about. :P

The following quote comes from an article posted in the Tampa Bay Business Journal entitled, "Boutique hotel aims to enrich Tampa's cultural scene."

"The first development of the Twelve brand, Twelve Atlantic Station, is located in Midtown Atlanta. Start of construction on Twelve Arts District is not expected until 2008."

To read the entire article, check out:
http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2006/11/27/daily19.html?jst=s_cn_hl

They've got their hands full right now, jobe, so I think they'll hold off until next year to tackle the TWELVE Arts Tampa project.

btw, ALL of the Novare girls were last night at the TCC meeting... They all sat on the same row as me actually... very nice, though I myself don't usually go for tall, thin, modelly looking girls... A shame too, because a few of them 'magically' wanted to talk to me after I got up and gushed over their employer's efforts.

Pics or ban. :lol:

The TWELVE project will not break ground until 2008. ;)

That would be fine with me, early 2008.. By then Venu should be going vertical as well.. Basically 2-50 stories on Ashley Street...( And if Related Get's the Trump project) then 3- 50 stories on Ashley Street.. Never would of thunked it..

Here's a little newsflash - 95% chance (won't say it is impossible) that Venu will not break ground in 2008 . . . I would say 98.5% chance that it does not break ground before Augus 2008.

Here's a little newsflash - 95% chance (won't say it is impossible) that Venu will not break ground in 2008 . . . I would say 98.5% chance that it does not break ground before Augus 2008.

Well my sources say there is sales center in the Merchantile Bank and if sales go well we plan to break ground way before August 2008..:yes: :yes: : :yes:

I will put some money on that one Smiley???

I will put some money on that one Smiley???

Hahaha, the SSC futures market. I love it.

Pics or ban. :lol:
Lucky for me, the other Admins on the staff would never vote to ban the person who convinced them to band together to create this site in the first place.

:cheers:


Sorry no pics from the council meeting... And unlike you, I'm sure that I would have no skills at getting a woman to pose for me... Not like I would ever ask... sober that is. :)

Being someone that hires product models for events fairly often I'm more amused than anything that Novare would have some on hand, though I suppose it makes perfect sense to schmooze the people at the meetings.

Being someone that hires product models for events fairly often I'm more amused than anything that Novare would have some on hand, though I suppose it makes perfect sense to schmooze the people at the meetings.

I'm sure they don't hurt sales either. ;)

I will put some money on that one Smiley???

I don't bet and if I did, I would not bet you because I am not going to steal your money. They need to do sales, then demo the old building and prepare the site, then break ground. I seriously doubt that that will happen before August (4 mths) - it is pretty much April right now. IT would be nice if it did - but I would be shocked (though Novare shocked me)

Being someone that hires product models for events fairly often I'm more amused than anything that Novare would have some on hand, though I suppose it makes perfect sense to schmooze the people at the meetings.
I think it was more like their entire staff, as their entourage numbered in the teens...

Hey Smiley, you said Aug 2008, not 2007...

doh!

So I did, I meant Aug 2007 - my bad

I just booked a room for next week at TWELVE Atlantic Station. Will get to check out Novare from the inside :).

All sorts of awesome.

Time to update the development news. *waits patiently for better rendering*

ps jonkee is all sorts of awesome for putting a pic up

as is jason for being a pimp with the novare girls. very suave.

I didn't pimp anything... I did get hit on pretty shamelessly by a cute girl toting a toddler though... She was really cute, but so small that I think I would break her...




I saw the presentation boards of the two projects primarily of interest to folks here... And the city council had the right instincts... The TWELVE project looked great... And the Metlife project not quite so much...

One thing that I took away from the Council's assessment of the metlife project... Councilwoman Alvarez thought its scale was too great... But other council members were actually peeved that the project was knocking down canopy trees, wasn't mixed-use enough, nor urban enough for them to approve it...

Seriously, they told the developer point blank, go back to the drawing board and come back with something that saves more canopy trees on the northern part of the parcel (near the light to the mall/commuter plane terminal)

And also met new design codes for parking structures in the Westshore overlay district code, which stipulates that all multi-level parking structures must have ground floor uses (like retail, office, etc) fronting the streets...

And also to redesign the very banal boxes they were proposing for the office buildings.

It should be of note that the project included two 190ft highrises ( which would be the 2nd and 3rd tallest in Westshore, behind only the Embassy Suites on Westshore Blvd) on the southern portion of the site... There were also several other midrises, and I think 2 new parking garages, making for a total of 11 buildings proposed for the 25+ acre site.

I'm impressed. It's damn near heroic, if that could be said about a highrise.

Quick Question:
For anyone who watched or was at the meeting...Did they talk about the Teleconvergence Center or did they delay any vote for a later date? I have not heard anything on that project and I thought it was up for approval too?

^No Channelside project was discussed in any way.

They pushed it back to April in the middle to end of the month.

Right, the 12th or something, right?

Right, the 12th or something, right?

I'm not sure about the Teleconference Center for the April 12th meeting, but that is supposidly the day Del Villar goes for approval unless it's pushed back.

I think that it is the 26th.

Finally an article for TWELVE, and a nice article by the Trib.

Red Carpet Rolled Out For Twelve

By JANIS D. FROELICH The Tampa Tribune

Published: Mar 29, 2007

DOWNTOWN - City urban planner Wilson Stair said it's a nice touch that condominium residents of the Twelve project will be able to order room service from the hotel housed in the same building.

But what really upped his enthusiasm for Twelve Hotel and Residences, which won city council approval last week without controversy, is the dynamic statement the 47-story building will make at street level. Its entrance, including an outdoor cafe, will stretch around Ashley Drive and Cass Street, and the front of the parking garage will be decorated with artwork.

Twelve will occupy a key location in the Ashley Drive makeover - across from the proposed art museum site - and Stair and other city officials say they weren't about to let that plum spot go to just any ho-hum structure.

Twelve, which will have 410 condos and 135 hotel rooms, is the fourth project for Atlanta-based Novare and its Tampa investment partners, intowngroup. Council members are familiar with the work of Novare and intowngroup, including the near-completed SkyPoint and the under-construction Element condo projects in downtown. The partners also plan a 425-condo project, including a rooftop restaurant, at 110 N. 12th St. in the Channel District.

Stair said Twelve is the best of Novare and intowngroup's trio of downtown projects.

"They worked up to this," he said. "It started pretty bare bones."

He characterizes the city's effort to get the best out of the developer as akin to "building a boat in a bottle."

"The ornate, art deco architecture wasn't there to begin with," he said. "But they were able to solve a number of functional issues while taking Twelve a different direction from what was originally planned."

Stair said the biggest challenge was placing such a large building on one of Tampa's small city blocks.

Twelve will have 837 parking spaces, including 190 it will offer to Tampa Electric Co. employees. The Element project also will offer 190 spaces to the utility, which lost parking space when it sold land to Novare and intowngroup. TECO will use the 380 spaces on weekdays.

The partners' three projects are filling a void in downtown's somewhat tattered north end. Still, it's unusual for a project as large as Twelve to breeze through a council hearing with so few comments from council members.

Twelve, 801 N. Ashley Drive, will replace a parking lot. The property, also bordered by Polk and Tampa streets, is crucial if downtown's gateway is to become a dramatic entranceway, Councilwoman Linda Saul-Sena said.

In response to his question, Councilman John Dingfelder was assured that the project's retail stores would open to the street.

Novare has developed a Twelve project in Atlanta and has another on the way there. The Tampa project will include a restaurant, Lobby at Twelve, intowngroup President Greg Minder said.

Reporter Janis D. Froelich can be reached at (813) 835-2104 or jfroelich@tampatrib.com.

http://centraltampa.tbo.com/centraltampa/MGBMFAT3UZE.html

Are we going to get an offical render from Novare that isn't taken from a TV?
I would like to start modeling it.

Not for weeks.

I really enjoyed my stay at TWELVE Atlantic Station this week. The rooms feel like home a lot more than a normal hotel. The computer that they have in the room can be used to request things (like a toothbrush from house keeping) which was handy. For whatever reason it wasn't letting me call up our car with the valet, but that is a minor quibble (they just scanned the ticket at the front desk). Lobby, the restaurant, was nice and very busy. It would be great to have a similar place in downtown Tampa.

I'm not the biggest fan of Atlantic Station as an area, but TWELVE was great. Novare has done a *lot* in Atlanta, it's really something to drive around and look at all their buildings. I'm looking forward to the Tampa version.

Yeah, Atlantic Station in general really disappointed me. I really prefer the Channel District, which I think will be comparable in a few years.

Glad you enjoyed the hotel... I'm really excited about TWELVE going up.

^ On that note, I prefer Midtown Atlanta to both. Lots of street accessible independent restaurants and [the amazing] Piedmont park.

Midtown is much nicer, yes.

I still generally dislike Atlanta, though. I'm not sure why. I'll phone in when I figure it out.... it's got so much going for it.

Has anyone seen the new billboard at the 12 ADH site.. Can someone tell me if it is a rendering of the Novare building???

You can see it in the Skypoint cam..

From the skypoint cam, looks like Element

^^It is, if you zoom in you can see it.

OK, I'm doing the dirty work here by bumping this thread to the main page because wslu was asking a question and I've heard doubts before by several members regarding Novare's Twelve project in Tampa.

"Will Novarre's tower get built" -- well, TECHNICALLY they've got their tower built, and they are working on their second... along with a proposed third and fourth while holding porperty rights to a potential fifth development in downtown Tampa and Channelside. I'm assuming that it was the Twelve Arts District project that was being referenced here.

We've heard basically nothing about Twelve since it came before the City Council and the immediate fallout. That's part of the timing (still a long way away from anything getting anywhere near construction stage) and the market (Condos going ice cold)., But the kicker that always gets me is the fact Twelve is not a Condo project by itself. It's a hotel. It's a hotel in a city that hosts conventions, the Super Bowl, NCAA tournament games for men and women, etc, etc.

In my opinion, the question surrounding Twelve doesn't stem from sales in the Condo market. It depends on need in the Hotel market downtown. Every unsold condo -- and this is just assuming and guesswork and someone can correct me here -- is a potential unit to turn into another rentable hotel room. There is a ceiling for Condo units sold but I don't think there is a true ceiling on the number of rentable hotel rooms. The question is would the people who operate Twelve be able to do conversions on rooms (from open space to hotel space) in a timely fashion and is it cost effective?

In comparison to Trump Tower of Tampa -- Twelve has no financing and while it may be seeking, it's not even close to a begin-build date. Unlike SimDag, Novare/In-Town have completed projects. "Trump" was a name stuck on the building. And though Mr. Trump doesn't like his name sullied, I also think he's learned to abandon non-viable projects. Why would he want out if otherwise?

Does Novare/In-Town want to move forward on this project? Can they sell it to financers? Will there be a market? Plenty of questions but compared directly to TTT, Twelve Arts District is in a better place on the market with a better company. They'd sooner delay the project than abandon it. I mean, I'm no Novare hsitorian but do they have a record for ditching projects?

Interesting...

I'm not commenting any further on this though because Jason keeps yelling at me for putting the wrong things in the development threads (example TTT thread). Plus I don't know some of the things that are discussed here.

Interesting...

I'm not commenting any further on this though because Jason keeps yelling at me for putting the wrong things in the development threads (example TTT thread). Plus I don't know some of the things that are discussed here.

lol @ yelling over the internet. :lol: :)

lol @ yelling over the internet. :lol: :)

Well, every time I go off topic in the TTT thread he yells at me.

Anyways, I like the progress of this development. Better than what TTT and HRT are going through right now.

^^ HRT isn't even worth mentioning. The only question is really why hasn't someone else bought that property yet (answer: No surging office market downtown)

I believe that Twelve is a mixture of Condos and Hotel Rooms - so it would probably be marketed after Element is complete. At least Novare's other Twelve projects are:

http://www.twelvehotels.com/Home.do

Well, Novare staggers their projects so its no surprise that we haven't heard anything on it for a while. I'm sure when Element is topped out we'll see and hear more action on TWELVE. And by the time that happens the residential market should be improved.

Interesting...

I'm not commenting any further on this though because Jason keeps yelling at me for putting the wrong things in the development threads (example TTT thread). Plus I don't know some of the things that are discussed here.

Well, it could be worse... I went pretty far off topic in the other thread with JBrisco, talking about Pro wrestling. You're still talking development with your questions so you're ahead of the curve compared to my transgressions :)

Back on topic -- I know Jonknee (I think?) has stayed at Atlantic station and it just occurred to me how different Condo floor plans may end up beign from the boutique hotel room floorplans in Twelve. That'll effect the entire "conversion" concept.

But seriously, they change the hotel room numbers -- increase them or decrease them -- depending on demand, they're still so distant from any begin-construction dates. There is an argument worth having regarding how many hotel rooms DT Tampa can support. THe Marriott Waterside, the Embassy Suites hotel (with a possible second hotel immediately near the Embassy Suites -- rumored at least), The Sheraton, the restored Floridan, several other hotels that I don't know the name for, as well as one (or more?) on Harbor Island...

Lots of rooms... Though there had been such a lack of them for a long time...

Well, Novare staggers their projects so its no surprise that we haven't heard anything on it for a while. I'm sure when Element is topped out we'll see and hear more action on TWELVE. And by the time that happens the residential market should be improved.

Correct about the staggering of projects but I'm (...pigeonholing myself) skeptical about the market being healthier then. There are issues at the local, state and national level that have to be dealt with and stabilized and that is being ignored at current or just given band-aids instead of solving the problem.

Here they are:

Pictures from various sources....


Hyatt Regency Tampa

http://tamparegency.hyatt.com/hyatt/images/hotels/tpart/gallery_1.jpg

Courtyard by Marriott Downtown Tampa

http://cache.marriott.com/propertyimages/t/tpadt/phototour/tpadt_phototour01.jpg

Tampa Marriott Waterside

http://filelibrary.myaasite.com/Content/4/4430/956843.jpg

Sheraton Tampa Riverwalk Hotel

http://images.travelnow.com/hotelimages/s/040000/040137A.jpg

Marriott Residence Inn Tampa

http://cache.marriott.com/propertyimages/t/tpatd/phototour/tpatd_phototour01.jpg

Hilton Garden Inn Historic Ybor City

http://www.hiltongardeninn.com/en/hotels/content/TPAYCGI/media/images/photo_gallery/TPAYCGI_Hilton_Garden_Inn_Tampa_Ybor_Historic_District_gallery_welcome.jpg

The Don Vicente de Ybor

http://www.sptimes.com/2006/06/18/images/xlarge/Travel_donvice_579236.jpg

Embassy Suites Hotel Tampa

http://www.hayneswhaley.com/project_images/TampaEmbassySuites2.jpg

Ashley Plaza Hotel

http://www.travelhero.com/graphics/propimages/98/98182-01.jpg

The Westin Tampa Harbour Island

http://specialoffers.starwoodhotels.com/uploadedfiles/sop/westin_harbor_island/1764_exterior_night.jpg

Hampton Inn and Suites - Ybor City

http://www.centroybor.com/images/assets/Hampton%20Inn%20and%20Suites%20Tampa%20Ybor%20City%20.JPG

I know in Atlanta's TWELVE Atlantic Station they do the hotel by floor (it's only a handful of floors, I think 4) which makes sense for security. I seem to remember a hotel only elevator as well, which also makes sense.

That does clarify things, Jonknee. OK, sorta chalks up my talk as wishful thinking....

At the same time, my concern about hotel room overabundance.. well, it sorta gets to me that most of those hotels showing are low/medium occupancy (sans the Waterside and the Embassy SUites). Floridan and Twelve Arts District (with their moderate size) would be competition in the downtown market with those already abundant.

^True. I think it also must be realized with an improving office market, and more tourism options in downtown (new museums, Ybor revtialization, Channelside revitalization, riverwalk, cleaning up of downtown and surrounding area from Tampa Heights to Central Park) that there will be more demand for downtown hotel rooms as well.

...but that is a long way off, as we (I) got on that woman who bought into Skypoint thinking it would all be here already.

It's the business stuff that I wanted to include in my post but didn't. How high is the vacancy rate downtown? I wish there were some more distinguished corporate entities in the core instead of in suburban office parks... But that's something city leadership needs to deal with... And most city leaders don't see that as an issue compared to other day-to-day issues within the city that goes beyond the downtown CBD core.

TWELVE is going to set itself apart from the others because the rooms are all suites (effectively a furnished apartment). And since it has a relatively small number of rooms I see it doing very well. And it's still years off.

I am looking for numbers - but I was under the impression that downtown Tampa hotel occupancy rates were actually pretty strong.

Does anyone else have that recolection?

I seem to remember occupancy being high as well, that's why Embassy Suites wants to expand.

I am looking for numbers - but I was under the impression that downtown Tampa hotel occupancy rates were actually pretty strong.

Does anyone else have that recolection?

Check out the thread Bay Area Lodgings Industry Finds Room For Growth (posted by mobster on August, 14). It offers a lot of valuable information. :)

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=511056

As for Twelve Arts Tampa, based on Novare's track record (30 projects either completed or under construction with no less than four additional projects waiting in the wings), I fully expect it to be built shortly after Element is finished.

Keep in mind that many TECO employees currently use the proposed/approved site for parking and will ultimately relocate within Element's parking garage. I'm thinking prior to the sale of the property that TECO and Novare came up with some contractual agreement securing the parking until the new spaces become available. :cheers:

I think that it was to be in Skypoint until Element was complete. Seeing that it does own the building.

Was checking the Novare's site and notice that the added a new TWELVE project, but for Phoenix. The reason I'm bringing it up, is that it says that construction should start around the 2nd Quarter of 08. Just got me alittle interested on why nothing has been brought up on TWELVE Tampa when Novare is already looking into 2nd Quarter.

^Because the Novare people have said all along that TWELVE will happen after Element is done.

Element is a long way from completion (still need it clarified -- 10 floors of parking or nine?! ;) ). They should start on the tower portion of the building by new years if not before but even then -- it's going to continue to be a long build.

Ant to be honest, as one of Novare's supporters: the market worries me now. Not just real estate - everything.

We could plunge into another Great Depression and Novare would still be building.

We might just plunge into a "mini" Great Depression. Who is shocked? Not me. This country loves debt a little to much (consumers too, not just the government!)

Element will be a great addition, and if I don't get a place in Skypoint, I'll surely get something in Element.

^The consumers are the government. That's the part that people STILL don't get...

OT, but the historical indicators have been pointing to that writing being on the wall for the past 5 years or so. There are certainly enough similarities and parallels to 1920's America to put fear in the minds of even the most blindly ardent. Lets hope, however that the worst does not come to fruition.

Wouldn't we have to see a recession first ? That's not even axiomatic. You know, economists have accurately predicted ten of the last three recessions.

*cymbal crash*

^The consumers are the government. That's the part that people STILL don't get...

You are right, but when I mention consumers here, I mean the American people. You are right though, the government is the biggest consumer.

Wouldn't we have to see a recession first ?

Unfortunately, not necessarily, though it might be argued we have been in a type of recession for the past number of years.

Given the globalness of the world economy at this point in time it is unlikely that a depression on the scale of the great depression, which was indeed, a world depression at the time will repeat itself any time soon, if at all. For example, the current housing market burst in the US could have caused markets around the globe to crash, however, the strength of the Chinese (among others) market has kept that at bay.

With that said though....a recession is inevitable at some point. It is also worth noting that historically most of the time we do not know we are in a recession until we are either in the middle of it or we are on the way out.

Steve

For example, the current housing market burst in the US could have caused markets around the globe to crash, however, the strength of the Chinese (among others) market has kept that at bay.

^^ See - I think you have that backwards. It is the strength of the US market that keeps the Chinese economy booming - not the other way around.

Yes and no, the world economy, as entwined as it is, certainly feeds the Chinese economy, that is a given with our demand for goods from the east. It is well documented in several sources, including The Economist from several weeks back, that the Chinese economy is what is playing a major role in keeping the economies of a good part of the world, most notably Asia, from hitting a bust as well. But, again, it is really a world economy now that one needs to look at for the big picture, not just the individual countries.

Steve

But back to TWELVE Arts District. I read somewhere a few weeks back that they were taking out a good portion of the condos and changing them to hotel rooms...at least I believe that it was TWELVE they were talking about..even if not, it does make sense that they would do that, it is easy to change them back to condos should the market turn around when they near construction after Element is topped off.
Steve

Given the globalness of the world economy at this point in time it is unlikely that a depression on the scale of the great depression, which was indeed, a world depression at the time will repeat itself any time soon, if at all. For example, the current housing market burst in the US could have caused markets around the globe to crash, however, the strength of the Chinese (among others) market has kept that at bay.

With that said though....a recession is inevitable at some point. It is also worth noting that historically most of the time we do not know we are in a recession until we are either in the middle of it or we are on the way out.

Steve

I wouldn't go out betting the house on the first half of your economic position. ;) $90 a barrel oil affects the entire global economy like a giant sledgehammer! Talk about inflationary pressures... Whatever's made with oil (even in China) is also shipped around the world with oil; gotta pass the cost on to someone - and yes, that would be the consumer. :(

As for us, the economic not-so-rosey news that we'll be forced to come to grips with before next year's elections will be a real eye-opener for all of U.S.. The recent foreclosure mess is just the tip of the iceberg; I suspect that it's much worse than we've been told at this point. I also suspect we'll soon start to hear grumbling about the credit crunch where auto loans and credit card defaults are concerned... a default tsunami so to speak; the real trickle down... Did someone say, 'check, please!'?

But earth will continue to revolve and businesses will continue to evolve...

As for TWELVE Arts - my gut says that it's gonna rise soon after Element is completed. My gut also tells me that sales for Element will be better than what would have been expected. Wasn't Florida the first state to really take a hit in the housing market? If so, then I suspect that it will be one of first to see a reversal of fortune with the numbers slowly improving once we've managed to weather the upcoming "doozey" recession. Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part. :)

Actually, someone should try to find out if they really are switching out condo units for hotel units... This will likely downsize the building some (hotel rooms are smaller), but may also speed its construction.

I think it's kinda odd that no new DT hotel construction got started in time to be open for the '09 Super Bowl. (Unless the one at Seaboard Square starting sometime soon is going to be a small one that magically gets built in like 10 months)

I stayed at TWELVE Atlantic Station and the room was not any smaller than the units I toured at Skypoint. They weren't furnished quite as nicely (the couch had a commercial feel to it), but otherwise it was a normal ~700 sq foot condo.

Actually, someone should try to find out if they really are switching out condo units for hotel units... This will likely downsize the building some (hotel rooms are smaller), but may also speed its construction.

I think it's kinda odd that no new DT hotel construction got started in time to be open for the '09 Super Bowl. (Unless the one at Seaboard Square starting sometime soon is going to be a small one that magically gets built in like 10 months)
I've tried many times trying to contact either Novare or TWELVE Hotels on TWELVE tampa and haven't gotten one reply.

Yes and no, the world economy, as entwined as it is, certainly feeds the Chinese economy, that is a given with our demand for goods from the east. It is well documented in several sources, including The Economist from several weeks back, that the Chinese economy is what is playing a major role in keeping the economies of a good part of the world, most notably Asia, from hitting a bust as well. But, again, it is really a world economy now that one needs to look at for the big picture, not just the individual countries.

Steve

The Chinese Market may be supporting some Asian Economies, but their Economy is completely reliant on us. We support them, not the other way around.

According to the US Census Trade Statistics (Source: http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html#2007 )


2007 US Exports to China: 41.23 Billion Dollars
2007 China Imports to US: 205.06 Billion Dollars

Of course there is obvious interelation - but clearly their Economy is much more dependant on us.

I apologize Jason - This will be my last off topic post.

^No worries mate...


I stayed at TWELVE Atlantic Station and the room was not any smaller than the units I toured at Skypoint. They weren't furnished quite as nicely (the couch had a commercial feel to it), but otherwise it was a normal ~700 sq foot condo.
Wow, are you kidding me? I thought their rooms were smaller. That's a big hotel room.

One thing that is missed in the oil market is that China and Tehran have created deals that surpass the oil market. China is getting oil from Iran that does not go the the normal market trends. Similar to what Russia was giving and may still be giving China, before Russia joined the world market.

China is dealing with Venezuela and Cuba now and trying the same with Mexico. Mexico depends on the US for too much so they are not giving in.....I know some may not want to hear this but our oil problems are going to get worse before they get better. Our biggest import of oil come form Canada, Mexico and Venezuela....Chavez is in in bed with China so that may hurt us here in the US.

Last I read, only 40% of China's oil comes from the free market. They aren't producing but they are pulling oil at well under market values which kills us all at the pumps.

Unfortunately, not necessarily, though it might be argued we have been in a type of recession for the past number of years.

Hence, my wry comment on economists. Yes, all is not well. No, we are not in a recession, much less headed for worse.

Wow, are you kidding me? I thought their rooms were smaller. That's a big hotel room.

Nope. Check out the website (http://www.twelvehotels.com/AtlanticStation/accommodations/Accommodations.do)... The smallest rooms start out at 690 sq ft and the largest top out at 1,200. The room I had was *really* nice for the price (full kitchen, balcony, living room, bed room, etc). It was effectively renting a room in Skypoint for the night except the building was more high-end (valet, full restaurant downstairs, etc). I highly recommend it.

And again, the hotel went by floors... I think 2-5 or so for TWELVE Atlantic Station (there is underground parking so the second floor isn't one of those 2 unit floors like Skypoint, it's a regular plate). So TWELVE Tampa could in my mind easily expand from X floors of hotel to X+Y floors with little to no floorplan changes.

There are a couple of renderings of this Twelve on the architects website. Its on the front page in flashplayer. RJT+R (http://www.rjtplusr.com/)

Interesting, it looks good in those pics. I did not know they did Element too, that is cool.

Steve

Looks like my exclusive has finally been broken. That lasted a good 8 months.

Here is the new image:

http://jongales.com/pics/twelve/TWELVE-arts-tampa.jpg

And FWIW here are the older ones I captured off the TV:

http://jongales.com/pics/twelve/twelve-tampa-street.jpg

http://jongales.com/pics/twelve/twelve-tampa.jpg

kinda looks like TTT....

The problem with the new image, Jonknee, is that it's the thin side fo the building and not the broad side. The broad side will be facing Ashley Street... At least that was the plan. Hmmmm

EDIT: Looking at the image, it seems they changed the orientation of the building. This should piss off Skypoint residents. Note the river in the very foreground of the picture.

I can't quite figure it out from the rendering, but I thought they made a big deal in the presentation about the hotel entrance being off Cass and the loading area off Polk (which is where Skypoint's backdoor is as well). That lines things up and would keep cars moving along Ashley.

The river curves around, so it could still be aligned opposite of Skypoint.

^ why would skypoint people be upset? I thought both orientations would block view corridors since it's right across the street?

Interesting. Strangely less inspiring than the initial artwork.

^ why would skypoint people be upset? I thought both orientations would block view corridors since it's right across the street?

Cause it's better to have thin side of the building facing you then the broad side. It's less there facing you so you can see more around it.

Anyway that rendering doesn't even look complete to me. Especially the parking garage/base....

The problem with the new image, Jonknee, is that it's the thin side fo the building and not the broad side. The broad side will be facing Ashley Street... At least that was the plan. Hmmmm

EDIT: Looking at the image, it seems they changed the orientation of the building. This should piss off Skypoint residents. Note the river in the very foreground of the picture.

I have to agree, John. It appears with how the Kress bldg. and the Floridan are situated in the rendering that they've changed the orientation of the tower so that it now runs east/west - just like Element and Skypoint.

Robert's remark that it looks less inspiring is on point; in some ways it looks like a completely different project (less classy, asthetically). I sure hope that Flfuture is right and that it's just a partial rendering.

Can you say, 'Value Engineering' ?

I can't quite figure it out from the rendering, but I thought they made a big deal in the presentation about the hotel entrance being off Cass and the loading area off Polk (which is where Skypoint's backdoor is as well). That lines things up and would keep cars moving along Ashley.

The river curves around, so it could still be aligned opposite of Skypoint.

There's a smaller image that might help. Its the second image from the top on the on the right side of the page.

You mean the developer might have misrepresented the final orientation of the building?!? To not discourage sales at Skypoint?!? A developer would NEVER do that...

You mean the developer might have misrepresented the final orientation of the building?!? To not discourage sales at Skypoint?!? A developer would NEVER do that...

Take a step back here with regards to skypoint nad Novare's intentions. Skypoint was well under way in Spring 2006 when Novare / In-Town and TECO announced their deal for the two parking lots north of Skypoint. The thread specifically about that announcement should still be somewhere back in the forum index several (dozen) pages but its there. Now if someone officially said the orientations were going to be a certain way as to not effect each building, I can't quite remember if it was said def. or not. But I do recall the topic coming up and the point being discussed that the orientations would be situated in a way not to hinder views from each building.

Skypoint was basically sold out as was...

I'm going to see if I can ind that thread that was originally about hose two lots... Though there may be some discussion on early pages on either the first or the second Skypoint thread.

EDIT: I can't do the research myself as I am goign out of town and gotta pack but Here is the thread I was talking about regarding the lots that would become Element and Twelve (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=315568). Dunno if orientation is discussed or not.

Considering the rendering doesn't even look finished, I don't think it's prudent to make any inference into design changes.

Let's hope so.

yeah - that rendering is missing a few NURBS!

It may be worth considering, when thinking about how 12 would impact views from Skypoint and Element.... If 12 is oriented N-S, that block's Element's view of the river, which an E-W orientation presumably would not do. Either way some building is going to lose views. Question being, do you toast Skypoint's north views, pissing off half of the residents in the cheaper building, or do you toast Element's river views, pissing off 4/5 of the residents in the more expensive building?

In either case... I complain about my view changing, too, but if you buy downtown for your view expecting it to never change, you're rather a bit of a fool, don't you think?

In either case... I complain about my view changing, too, but if you buy downtown for your view expecting it to never change, you're rather a bit of a fool, don't you think?

Exactly. Tall large buildings that block views get built in down towns...that is why you live there and not in the burbs. It is literally impossible to NOT block some view when you build a tower. In my opinion I would like to have more buildings, even if they blocked my view. This is what makes a dense core with people living 24/7, the whole reason people are moving into down town.

Steve

In either case... I complain about my view changing, too, but if you buy downtown for your view expecting it to never change, you're rather a bit of a fool, don't you think?
No, you are an absolute blithering idiot, worthy of a 'Darwin Award'.

No, you are an absolute blithering idiot, worthy of a 'Darwin Award'.

What the heck is that about Jason?

It may be worth considering, when thinking about how 12 would impact views from Skypoint and Element.... If 12 is oriented N-S, that block's Element's view of the river, which an E-W orientation presumably would not do. Either way some building is going to lose views. Question being, do you toast Skypoint's north views, pissing off half of the residents in the cheaper building, or do you toast Element's river views, pissing off 4/5 of the residents in the more expensive building?

In either case... I complain about my view changing, too, but if you buy downtown for your view expecting it to never change, you're rather a bit of a fool, don't you think?

Yes, of course views are going to change, but this is a slightly different case I think. Since this is the same developer doing a corner or two of four blocks next to each other, in consecutive time frames, they're going to do whatever they can to preserve the best views for each of the condo towers.

So sure Element's back (thin side) would face the broad side of TWELVE, but that's better then the broad side of Skypoint facing the broad side of TWELVE. That way, out of these three projects, the broad side of neither of the three directly faces the broad of another.

And the way Element is already oriented (same direction as Skypoint) only the people on the back end (west side) would have a significant river view.

Is there any update information on this building?
Just Wondering...

^^ There's been nothing, TG. No news, no new renders, etc.

Oh..
I personally like the project but it looks somewhat like skypoint and element
I like the height though.

I think there is a council meeting on it in March. I'm not even sure about this. I remember there being talk about a council meeting for something, and everytime, TWELVE pops up.

Oh..
I personally like the project but it looks somewhat like skypoint and element
I like the height though.

That's Novare for you -- cookie cutter designs. But I like the project as well and it will create a good sized residential cluster with street action (hopefully) with Skypoint and Element on the next block

so im in charlotte this last week... and i notice a building that looks alot light a skypoint or an element. and sure enough, i check emporis the other day on who is the project developer is, its novare (the building was "Avenue")

wish i would have remembered my cam... there's a whole slue of projects going up

That's Novare for you -- cookie cutter designs. But I like the project as well and it will create a good sized residential cluster with street action (hopefully) with Skypoint and Element on the next block
At least this one uses a different architect.

One of these days I'll take pictures of all the novaire towers here in Atlanta. I think you'll notice a few similarities in their designs.

One of these days I'll take pictures of all the novaire towers here in Atlanta. I think you'll notice a few similarities in their designs.

The Spire I think is the one they manly used, Also the 310? in Houston?

so im in charlotte this last week... and i notice a building that looks alot light a skypoint or an element. and sure enough, i check emporis the other day on who is the project developer is, its novare (the building was "Avenue")

wish i would have remembered my cam... there's a whole slue of projects going up

Avenue is a Novare project. It was built on the sight of an old smaller convention center I believe.

One of these days I'll take pictures of all the novaire towers here in Atlanta. I think you'll notice a few similarities in their designs.

Took the words right out of my mouth, they are all over the place up here.

I believe they have been designing their buildings to help entrench a brand focused style/design.... Its pretty obvious that when you're in ATL, you can tell which buildings were built by Novare. Soon the same will hold true for Tampa (when Element is nearly finished).

I think its actually a pretty smart move. As long as they keep offering what the market demands (technological features, concierge, pool, views, etc), they should continue to be successful.

I'd gladly welcome 10 Novare buildings compared to some of the buildings Tampa has unfortunately been saddled with recently (I won't name any names specifically, but a few come to mind in the Channel District).

^you beat me to it. I was just going to say that Novare goes after a certain look and style over and over on purpose, to develop an entrenched brand (and save a small amount of money)... just like Trump, or the Four Seasons, or any number of other high end places... Novare simply does it for a different market segment.

I think they're pretty slick really.

McDonalds has a certain look too.

Its not so bad if there are just a couple (Element and Skypoint), but when they start to make up like 20% of your skyline, it starts to get very generic. I'll try to put together a little photo survey within the next week to highlight my pissing and moaning about the Novaireization of Atlanta. The only building in Tampa's skyline I have a real issue with is the Park Tower, but other than that it looks fine for the size of city Tampa is.

But Trump does something different in every town because all he is doing is collecting a check for different developers. The soon to be DOA Trump Tower Atlanta is a pair of "C" shaped buildings facing each other. The individual developers come up with their own design and Mr.Combover collects his fee.

^I was referring more to how he used to do it I suppose. You know, the image of glassy towers, gold fixtures and generalized gaudiness... Now he just capitalizes on the brand he developed. which is why it will soon be a worthless brand. The people paying extra just for his name will figure that out soon enough. Bully for Trump and the developers though, right?

http://www.investingvalue.com/news/images/donald-trump.jpg

One of these days I'll take pictures of all the novaire towers here in Atlanta. I think you'll notice a few similarities in their designs.

First are the pictures of my Skypoint unit in Tampa.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/Afguy1985/skypoint-1.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/Afguy1985/AllMyPhotos035.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/Afguy1985/AllMyPhotos013.jpg

Second are the pictures of my Spire unit in Atlanta.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/Afguy1985/spire-2.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/Afguy1985/Spire-1.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/Afguy1985/view__3.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/Afguy1985/Spire1.jpg


The only difference really are the views! I love these buildings. :)

:bow:Wow, you have no idea how jealous I am right now! That is awsome that you have units in both great buildings, in two great cities! Man, I would give my left arm for your views!

Steve

You appear to have one of Skypoint's better views too. Go you! :banana:

Lucky is a understatement. The Skypoint unit is mind blowing. I love the set-up up the pad, good job, and the views are AMAZING! And you have a extremely great view of Atlanta in the Spire. Jealous, I'm not jealous.............


ok I am!

Is there a date for this project to start?
and does anyone know if theres a sales office?

^Nope.

I doubt we'll see any movement on this project until Element is at least topped off. Novare staggers their projects. TWELVE isn't even up on the Novare website yet.

I doubt we'll see any movement on this project until Element is at least topped off. Novare staggers their projects. TWELVE isn't even up on the Novare website yet.

Oh...
well i hope it goes up :)

There isn't a start date, but as FF said, they will probably start around Element is topped off. They might even finish the Element parking garage before topping off so the people at TECO who are currently using the TWELVE lot for parking can park over there instead and start preparing for TWELVE. Rumors that I have heard of the starting date though, Nov. or Dec.

I have emailed Novare two times on the matter though, neither times have I got a reply back though.

I am think they will finish the garage first, isn't there an agreement for TECO employees to use parts of the garage during the day, or is that a rumor? Also, maybe email TWELVE instead, they might be able to offer some insight.

Steve

I am think they will finish the garage first, isn't there an agreement for TECO employees to use parts of the garage during the day, or is that a rumor? Also, maybe email TWELVE instead, they might be able to offer some insight.

Steve
Yeah, the plan is for Novare to lend parking spaces to TECO so they can park there instead and than start TWELVE. That is why I am thinking that they will open maybe the first two floors of parking to TECO and than start TWELVE. If that happens, we might see ground work starting by September.

I'll email TWELVE tonight! :)

Twelve will not start until the market improves. Friend just bought a unit in skypoint and they are focused on selling the units in Skypoint and element.

You are most likely correct, but the lead date for TWELVE to be completed will be a good 2 years out from now, so the market will hopefully have improved some by then (not all the way for sure though). Also, being a good part hotel will help a lot to secure good financing if the units are not selling as fast as they would hope. If I am not mistaken I believe that Novare already changed some of the condos out to hotel rooms since the original plan was unveiled. It is quite easy to change things like that as the whole thing gets built/planned/marketed.

Steve

If you are looking for a deal look at Skypoint. They are doing all sorts of stuff to get rid of units there.

Is there any current news about this project?

There isn't a start date, but as FF said, they will probably start around Element is topped off. They might even finish the Element parking garage before topping off so the people at TECO who are currently using the TWELVE lot for parking can park over there instead and start preparing for TWELVE. Rumors that I have heard of the starting date though, Nov. or Dec.

I have emailed Novare two times on the matter though, neither times have I got a reply back though.

I'm just curious as to where you are getting your info concerning the start date?

I'm just curious as to where you are getting your info concerning the start date?
God, that's a long time ago I posted that, but one of the workers on Element told me when I asked him about Twelve is that when they begin to do interior work on Element and done with exterior, more info will be going out around them times.

I do want to remind everyone that the economy when Element started -- while shaky -- was a sight better than it is now. Same thing for when Twelve Arts District was unveiled originally...

The project being put on hold doesn't sound far fetched. It reflects the current state of the real estate market and the financial industry.

Yeah, I would not doubt that this project could be delayed; though, since it is part hotel they could easily raise the number of hotel units/floors and lower the condo units, that is something that could be changed during construction if the market turned around while they were building. As for financing....the money is there for people/companies that can qualify (not implying that Novare can qualify though).

Steve

^Problem there is, fuel costs and mounting job losses are catching up with tourism too. The local market now projects to have a significant rise in hotel vacancy rates during the next 24 months, perhaps longer. Hotel construction is also going to slow down.

It only makes sense, though it is unfortunate that one of the more ambitious projects will be taking that economic crunch. Tourism much like most other industries is going to be hard pressed in this state. It would be interesting to see how the numbers for this summer stack up against the previous five on a state level. I would wager there is a very significant drop.

In addressing another relevant aspect of the development, it is worth noting that many of lenders are getting increasingly more and more strict and stringent on their mortgages and understandably so. Having just closed on a house last night, I can tell everyone that the amount of information needed today is easily 2x that of what it was 1-2 years ago. It got down to the point for Laura and I of supplying college transcripts, as evidence of career direction. Financing a condo of questionable market value is going to be very, very difficult.

BUT - it makes sense to build it at this time. Costs of labor have gone down and materials aren't in high demand. It will take at least a year before the building could be occupied anyway, and by then it is possible that we will have seen a market rebound.

^^ I still don't believe many analysts are as optimistic about a market rebound anytime soon. Of course a market rebound may depend on which presidential candidate resides at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. next January.

It only makes sense, though it is unfortunate that one of the more ambitious projects will be taking that economic crunch. Tourism much like most other industries is going to be hard pressed in this state. It would be interesting to see how the numbers for this summer stack up against the previous five on a state level. I would wager there is a very significant drop.

In addressing another relevant aspect of the development, it is worth noting that many of lenders are getting increasingly more and more strict and stringent on their mortgages and understandably so. Having just closed on a house last night, I can tell everyone that the amount of information needed today is easily 2x that of what it was 1-2 years ago. It got down to the point for Laura and I of supplying college transcripts, as evidence of career direction. Financing a condo of questionable market value is going to be very, very difficult.

I just bought a new house in Wesley Chapel and it was actually pretty smooth...basics like paystatements, credit report, account statements, etc...nothing to bad...Loan was for $228,000...maybe a little lessthan yours, so maybe that's why it was easier? I wanted to buy a 2BR in Skypoint, but i just could not afford it...oh well...

BUT - it makes sense to build it at this time. Costs of labor have gone down and materials aren't in high demand.
That's factually incorrect. Building material costs have been and still are skyrocketing.

I work for a national building materials supplier/manufacturer... We have raised our prices nearly 30% just since the beginning of this year... And all of our competitors have raised their prices by at least 40%... Again, that's in just 7 months, and just about everybody is scheduled to raise their orices another 10% in the next 45 days.

That's factually incorrect. Building material costs have been and still are skyrocketing.

I work for a national building materials supplier/manufacturer... We have raised our prices nearly 30% just since the beginning of this year... And all of our competitors have raised their prices by at least 40%... Again, that's in just 7 months, and just about everybody is scheduled to raise their orices another 10% in the next 45 days.


I didn't say building material prices haven't skyrocketed, I just said they aren't in high demand like they were a couple of years ago.

I didn't say building material prices haven't skyrocketed, I just said they aren't in high demand like they were a couple of years ago.

Demand is one thing, but price trumps all.

I work for a national building materials supplier/manufacturer... We have raised our prices nearly 30% just since the beginning of this year... And all of our competitors have raised their prices by at least 40%... Again, that's in just 7 months, and just about everybody is scheduled to raise their orices another 10% in the next 45 days.

Wow - and I thought oil companies were gouging . . .

I would submit that tourists will not be the primary source of support for hotel rooms in DT Tampa - rather, business-people and conference participants. However, their frequency still requires a decent economy.

Agreed, though the cruise terminal does give a lot of one or two night stays to the DT area hotels.

Steve

With this weeks financial turmoil. would it be best to mark this project as "on hold"? Even if there has been no word from Novare?

All of Novare/InTown's stuff in Tampa that hasn't started yet is on hold (including the Channelside project). I was meaning to post about this over the weekend.

Depends. Projects of this scale take a while to be completed. Even if they broke ground today it would likely be close to 2 years to be done, so I would bet that it is still currently a "go". Although of course it also depends on where Novare gets financing from, financing is tighter, but if you have a good plan and a stable past (as Novare does) then the money can be found.

So, if they are not starting until Element is done (as most agree) then they would not even be breaking ground until April/May/June of next year - at the earliest. Economists I have heard think the market should be sorting itself out in a year or so....so with all that said I would give this project a "go" even though it would not start until (likely if at all) Octoberish 2009 with a opening in the end of 2011 or start of 2012 or so.....giving plenty of time for the market to get back on its feet.

but that is all conjecture on my part...

Steve

All of Novare/InTown's stuff in Tampa that hasn't started yet is on hold (including the Channelside project). I was meaning to post about this over the weekend.

Interesting, where did you hear that? I had read that the Channelside project was on hold, but not the rest.

Steve

^ Intown axed the staff working on it (including a friend of mine). Not entirely unexpected, but they had apparently finished up work on Element and had nothing to move onto.

Found some official renders on the Rule Joy Trammell and Rubio architect's website
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb313/JosefBrisko37/12b.jpg
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb313/JosefBrisko37/12a.jpg

^Wow nice job. The tower looks great.

I sent Novare an email late last week asking about this and the Channelside project. Of course I'm guessing it's delayed, but I'm confident it will get built eventually.

Edit- Also, there are more renderings on the home page as they flash by.

^Wow nice job. The tower looks great.

I sent Novare an email late last week asking about this and the Channelside project. Of course I'm guessing it's delayed, but I'm confident it will get built eventually.

Edit- Also, there are more renderings on the home page as they flash by.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb313/JosefBrisko37/12c.jpg
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb313/JosefBrisko37/12d.jpg

oh wow, that looks nice. I'm hoping they can get this up. It looks so superb.

Good find as well JBrisco. Perhaps we may see this tower rise before the end of 2009. :applause:

Very nice. Can you put a link to the home page?

Very nice. Can you put a link to the home page?

http://www.rjtplusr.com/

^Wow nice job. The tower looks great.

I sent Novare an email late last week asking about this and the Channelside project. Of course I'm guessing it's delayed, but I'm confident it will get built eventually.

Edit- Also, there are more renderings on the home page as they flash by.
Yeah, Novare rarely reply to any of my emails. Maybe I'll contact these guys and see if I can get any information about their timeline.

I'm sorry but I don't see the appeal of this building. Three buildings by the same developer that look basically the same to most people clustered together at the edge of downtown. Skypoint is semi-successful and Element already had to go rental. How would this new building be any different? Not to mention I think people have finally learned their lesson and aren't going to pay massively inflated prices to buy a place in Tampa, no matter how much of a novelty it is. I'd like to hear from actual people who have the money and desire to move there instead of internet talk about how nice the skyline will look with another empty building.

I'm sorry but I don't see the appeal of this building. Three buildings by the same developer that look basically the same to most people clustered together at the edge of downtown. Skypoint is semi-successful and Element already had to go rental. How would this new building be any different? Not to mention I think people have finally learned their lesson and aren't going to pay massively inflated prices to buy a place in Tampa, no matter how much of a novelty it is. I'd like to hear from actual people who have the money and desire to move there instead of internet talk about how nice the skyline will look with another empty building.

While the buildings all look similar, from the parking garage pedestal to the spire and the height of the building, this one is by FAR the best looking. To put, this would be the centerpiece of that cluster and would take away the table top affect made by Element and Skypoint. I think it would make Element and Skypoint look better.

This building is already different becasue a large portion of it is hotel. I think Novare's and TWELVE's product is proven not just in the bay area, but the Southeast region where their projects continue to succeed in Nashville, Charlotte, Atlanta and Austin.

And if you want to hear from people who live in Skypoint, here is a pretty good place to start. There are at least a few people on here that live in Skypoint. :)

The artist rendering looks nice, but the others are rather uninspiring. I think it's the extended balconies on either side of the building which give it that crappy beach-condo look.

I'm sorry but I don't see the appeal of this building. Three buildings by the same developer that look basically the same to most people clustered together at the edge of downtown. Skypoint is semi-successful and Element already had to go rental. How would this new building be any different? Not to mention I think people have finally learned their lesson and aren't going to pay massively inflated prices to buy a place in Tampa, no matter how much of a novelty it is. I'd like to hear from actual people who have the money and desire to move there instead of internet talk about how nice the skyline will look with another empty building.

I'm sorry its a novelty to live inside the city? Uhh no its not. Prior to World War 2 and the home construction boom in the 50's EVERYONE lived in the city/downtowns. And it was that way for thousands of years, or atleast it is in all civilized cities. The only exception being the medieval ages but ofcourse that was not a civilized time.
The shift towards moving back to the city is one that is long waited because we can not rely on our own transportation for a lot of miles anymore. I commute to school 17 miles every day. Do I like that? No, do I have a choice? No. I'd give anything to live in the city so I could cut my commute time and distance in half.
Btw one of the pent houses in Element has already been leased out and those won't even be complete until March. I see Element being a really successful rental tower.
Its not their fault they had to go rental, its impossible to get a mortgage now. Also these over inflated prices are part of the problem. The only thing I agree with you on.

I'm sorry its a novelty to live inside the city? Uhh no its not. Prior to World War 2 and the home construction boom in the 50's EVERYONE lived in the city/downtowns. And it was that way for thousands of years, or atleast it is in all civilized cities. The only exception being the medieval ages but ofcourse that was not a civilized time.
The shift towards moving back to the city is one that is long waited because we can not rely on our own transportation for a lot of miles anymore. I commute to school 17 miles every day. Do I like that? No, do I have a choice? No. I'd give anything to live in the city so I could cut my commute time and distance in half.
Btw one of the pent houses in Element has already been leased out and those won't even be complete until March. I see Element being a really successful rental tower.
Its not their fault they had to go rental, its impossible to get a mortgage now. Also these over inflated prices are part of the problem. The only thing I agree with you on.

I don't need a history lesson, it was clear that I was speaking about Tampa where living in the city is very much a novelty (hence our first high rise condos). I'm a firm believer that Tampa will make progress with Downtown leading the way but I don't think another massive tower is what we need (right now). Element may well turn out to be a successful rental tower even though I don't think that it will but the point is that these buildings were intended to be Tampa's first luxury condos, not luxury rentals.

I also actually live at SKYPOINT so I'm not talking out of my ass. I can tell you right now that there is now way this building is more than 50% occupied with actual residents (the number of investors holding on to properties they got screwed on may be another story). So you have Skypoint still struggling to sell, Element going all rental, and now we are going to add more condos? I'm just not buying it, nor do I think anyone else will. There are plenty of places to live in and around the city and the desire to do so just is not there (IMO of course).

Ah I see what you're saying. They are building 3 apartment towers that aren't so luxurious compared to Element. TWELVE will probably end up being mostly hotel anyway.

I don't know where the money would come from to start element. Intown would have to come up with it, because Novare is tapped out. They have four buildings up here half full at best and big competition from other buildings coming online and resale from older Novare buildings. They have Viewpoint just coming online, The Atlantic finishing up this summer, and Twelve (which has been done for over a year and is still offering deals to get people in). They won't move on the price, but what they are doing is offering incentive upgrades, They are at $75,000 in upgrades for a two bedroom right now (typical stuff, hardwoods flooring, custom closet systems, various accessories). From what I understand if you want 42" LCD's in each room, they'll get them for you too. I think I mentioned I didn't want to pay any closing costs either and the saleswoman said that wouldn't be a problem.

So I think Twelve Tampa will be a vacant lot for awhile, because Novare is having trouble in its primary market and I don't see them risking capital in secondary market. Kind of like Post Properties with their Howard project, once things started to get tight in the head office, everything gets put on hold.

As I mentioned before, all of Intown's stuff is on hold. They laid off their staff, that pretty much says it all.

As I mentioned before, all of Intown's stuff is on hold. They laid off their staff, that pretty much says it all.

When did Intown lay off their staff? I hadn't heard that (not saying it's not true, I just haven't heard yet).

I'm kind of surprised, considering they were focusing on Element for rentals (in-house marketing and leasing, in conjunction with Smith & Associates). Makes me wonder if Novare is the entity stuck holding the bag on it all, so to speak...

A few months ago. Not all the staff, just the ones working on new projects. They finished up on Element and had nothing to work on. I don't think they had many people to begin with.

I'm sorry but I don't see the appeal of this building. Three buildings by the same developer that look basically the same to most people clustered together at the edge of downtown. Skypoint is semi-successful and Element already had to go rental. How would this new building be any different? Not to mention I think people have finally learned their lesson and aren't going to pay massively inflated prices to buy a place in Tampa, no matter how much of a novelty it is. I'd like to hear from actual people who have the money and desire to move there instead of internet talk about how nice the skyline will look with another empty building.

We may here from these guys soon, but I have to disagree with you about being the same as Skypoint and Element, Twelve is much taller-different colors scheme and better street level action..

And not all of the DT projects are empty.
Harbour Island Tower sold out.
Grand Central 70% occupied.
Skypoint 90% sold
Element is over 50% occupied.
Ventana I believe is sold out as well.

Certainly when TWELVE is finished and developed, it will be an astounding and great edition to the skyline. And yes, Novare Group is partnered in this, but that doesn't mean that everything turns out the same. Look at Atlanta and Charlotte and they have several projects in them cities that don't look the same. And I believe TWELVE is always on-hand to make sure that their hotels are different to every other building in whatever city they build in.

It was also said earlier that deposits have been made on 70% of the units at The Slade. But those could fall through.

FYI on Novaire, they are offering a "Buy one, get one free" deal on Viewpoint here in Atlanta. The deal is basically all two bedrooms are being dumped at one bedroom prices (3% commission based on original full two bedroom price). So basically after the $75K price cut from about six months ago, they are knocking another $75-$125K off.

Hopefully, Novaire will make it out of this mess, but if things are tanking like this here in Atlanta (they have at least three buildings yet to sell out), which didn't see the deflation nearly as bad as TB (values down only 8-12%), then they might not be around to even get started on Twelve Tampa.

We may here from these guys soon, but I have to disagree with you about being the same as Skypoint and Element, Twelve is much taller-different colors scheme and better street level action..

And not all of the DT projects are empty.
Harbour Island Tower sold out.
Grand Central 70% occupied.
Skypoint 90% sold
Element is over 50% occupied.
Ventana I believe is sold out as well.

Where do you get your information? I live at Skypoint and talk to the sales staff regularly and at best they describe sales as "ok" and then describe the economy. Also, it may be 90% sold but it is nowhere near as occupied.

And as far as Element goes, I'm sorry but you are flat our wrong. I'm looking out my window right now and there are two lights on at 10pm on the entire side of the building facing Skypoint. I can also see into the apartments and they don't even looked finished construction wise. There is absolutely no way that building is 50% occupied.

Where do you get your information? I live at Skypoint and talk to the sales staff regularly and at best they describe sales as "ok" and then describe the economy. Also, it may be 90% sold but it is nowhere near as occupied.

And as far as Element goes, I'm sorry but you are flat our wrong. I'm looking out my window right now and there are two lights on at 10pm on the entire side of the building facing Skypoint. I can also see into the apartments and they don't even looked finished construction wise. There is absolutely no way that building is 50% occupied.

I can't deny that you do know what's going on at Skypoint. How are the restaurant's doing by the way?


On Element if you go to the Novare page for Element on February 24 th at 704pm on the web cam there is at least 20 lights on facing the Skypoint..

Where do you get your information? I live at Skypoint and talk to the sales staff regularly and at best they describe sales as "ok" and then describe the economy. Also, it may be 90% sold but it is nowhere near as occupied.

And as far as Element goes, I'm sorry but you are flat our wrong. I'm looking out my window right now and there are two lights on at 10pm on the entire side of the building facing Skypoint. I can also see into the apartments and they don't even looked finished construction wise. There is absolutely no way that building is 50% occupied.

Also, Grand Central is about 95% owned or rented right now, but if I had to guess (based on floors 3-6 in the East Building), probably 10% of the places are seasonal residents so probably about 85% occupied.

Ventana is nowhere near "sold out" ... based on window treatments and/or balcony furniture, I'd say its 50-60% occupied.

Just having "lights on" doesn't mean a new place is occupied. The Slade has had about 8-10 condos with the lights on for the past week or so, but still no signs of life in that building.

Also, most of these developers are just that developers and are not primarily in the rental business. Its an entirely different business model. Ideally you get your financing, build and get out. Hanging around and having to deal with tenants is the last thing they want to do, its a serious drag on an organization and if their inventory gets too high, say an entire building worth of unsold units, things can get bad. My guess is Novare/Intown, and the other developers are all either just barely staying afloat or they are bleeding cash because they are now in the rental business and weren't set up for it. I wouldn't expect Twelve or anything on that site to break ground for at least 5-7 years, too much capacity to burn off.

It looks like they sold the lot where Twelve was going to be built back to TECO.

Friday, July 10, 2009, 11:59am EDT
Debt deadlines loom for Novare GroupTampa Bay Business Journal - by Will Boye Charlotte Business Journal
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Novare Group, an Atlanta developer that was involved in downtown Tampa residential tower projects like Element and SkyPoint, is facing possible default on “a substantial” amount of debt.

As with many developers, the residential market has been anything but kind to Novare lately. And, in its financial statements obtained by sister paper Nashville Business Journal, the company says the impact of the financial crisis on banks has not helped.

“We have endured down markets before, although none like this, and we will emerge from this one as well,” Novare Chief Executive Jim Borders said in a letter to the Atlanta Business Chronicle, also a sister paper. “While these are obviously not the best of times, we are playing through it the only way we know how: With honesty, transparency, dedication, execution and optimism.”

Last year, Novare suffered a net loss of $61 million, and in the first quarter of this year, it recorded a $47 million loss, the company’s financial statements show.

Novare has stopped making payments on $48 million in debt owed to Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. Novare says it is negotiating a transaction with Lehman that would largely eliminate its credit facility with the investment bank, which filed for bankruptcy last year.

Novare is no longer making scheduled interest payments on loans secured by projects in Tampa, Charlotte, Atlanta and Houston. Novare suspended the payments as lenders consider a request to restructure those loans, which total more than $57 million.

No properties have been foreclosed upon, Borders said in an e-mail to the Atlanta Business Chronicle, “but there are near term and past due maturities that could result in that.”

In its opinion on the company’s financials, Novare’s independent auditor, Deloitte, said defaults and $280 million in debt maturing this year “raise substantial doubt about the company’s ability to continue as a going concern.”

Novare says in the financial statements that it is seeking opportunities to reduce debt and, in some cases, will have to transfer properties to lenders, including Lehman, to satisfy its debts. Novare reduced salaries by 10 percent across the board in the second quarter and reduced its head count, including some members of senior management.

Large presence in Tampa
Novare worked with intowngroup to build two multifamily towers in downtown Tampa — the 32-story SkyPoint condominium tower and the 35-story Element, built as condos but later converted to rental units after the housing market crashed.

SkyPoint has sold 341 of its 380 units since opening in 2007 with 17 sold this year alone, according to Hillsborough County property records. The most recent sale came Thursday with a $303,000 unit purchase.

SkyPoint LLC, the limited liability company linked to Novare-intowngroup, built the tower using a $64.1 million loan secured through Freemont Investment & Loan of California in May 2005, according to property records.

SkyPoint received an additional $10.5 million investment from Jamestown, a real estate investment and management company in Atlanta, in March 2006.

Element Properties LLC, the Novare-intowngroup company that built Element, did it with an $84.3 million loan from Corus Bank in December 2006.

There has been no other significant activity surrounding the Novare-intowngroup properties, outside of a sale June 19 of land where a parking lot sits just north of SkyPoint to Teco Properties Corp. for $2.75 million. Novare-intowngroup had purchased the land through its Tampa Ashley Block limited liability corporation in September 2006 for $7.5 million from Teco Properties.

Novare also has interest in other properties in the Tampa region. Much of it has not been used for residential construction but instead is being used as parking lots.

Greg Minder, principal for the Tampa-based intowngroup, was out of the country when reached Friday and asked to be contacted when he returns next week.

Values no longer there
Novare has been hurt by the dramatic decline in the condo market, which has left the company unable to sell units at a profit, according to documents obtained by reporters.

The company also has spent money for future development on land and architectural plans that “are worth substantially less, and in some instances, worth nothing in a world where development is nearly impossible,” Novare’s Borders wrote in a letter to investors.



Tampa Bay Business Journal staff writers Michael Hinman and Janet Leiser, Nashville Business Journal staff writer Turner Hutchens and Atlanta Business Chronicle staff writer Douglas Sams contributed to this report.

:(

That lot will end up getting sold again after the recession is over.

That is prime property right in front of the new park(s). It should sell well after things turn around. TECO did ok on the deal netting over 5MIL from what the article says.

When the market come back I wouldn't be surprised to see Novare purchase the land right back.

It'd be interesting to know the status of their Channelside land as well. Just like TWELVE, that was a good looking project...

When the market come back I wouldn't be surprised to see Novare purchase the land right back.

It'd be interesting to know the status of their Channelside land as well. Just like TWELVE, that was a good looking project...

Knowing the city it might become a garage... Lol

If they are bleeding money that badly and since they seem to be in the process of defaulting on mutiple lines of credit, I doubt Novare will end up being a player in anything for at least a decade. The housing market isn't improving and the next big round of ARMs is scheduled to reset during the next several months. Unless you were smart enough to re-fi early last summer, your pretty much stuck. So as these loans reset, expect another bump up in foreclosures late summer and early fall. The next shoe to drop is the commercial real estate bubble. Basically it isn't close to being over and though some "green shoots" do exist, a certain amount of deflation is still going to occur as real estate continues to adjust downwards.

Novare had two towers and several lots in Tampa, they have at least five towers up here in Atlanta and I don't know how many lots. Their properities up here are selling just as, ahem, briskly as the ones in Tampa. At this point they'll be luck to make it out of this economy period.

I don't think they'll make it without at least filing a Chapter 11.

Like anything like this is getting built anytime soon anyway . . . TECO still will need to unload the land - or, even better - someday build a new HQ (which I doubt) and rebuild the building on Franklin

Like anything like this is getting built anytime soon anyway . . . TECO still will need to unload the land - or, even better - someday build a new HQ (which I doubt) and rebuild the building on Franklin

Yeah, their HQ building is so in need of an extreme home makeover. They should use some of the tidy profit they made from the sale/buyback of the Twelve parcel and update!

Yeah, their HQ building is so in need of an extreme home makeover. They should use some of the tidy profit they made from the sale/buyback of the Twelve parcel and update!

Yeah but instead they'll probably raise their rates and say the economy is tough on them.
TECO charged me $460 on a deposit when I was living in Tampa Heights. Not to mention how many times they've ruined the quality of life for other people in other states. I doubt they'll do anything proactive in the community of downtown Tampa.

Time for a title change on this post: to Dead :(

I was just thinking about this the other day and how having the Novare design for the property would actually be something not to look forward to. This may be a blessing in disguise as whatever DOES get built on that property may better contrast/compliment Skypoint/Element than what TWELVE Arts District would have.

^Well of course it could be better, but it could be worse. TWELVE appeared to be a pretty kick-ass project.