Philippine Defense Forces [Archive] - Page 24

Simple Dude

November 5th, 2010, 04:18 AM

France joins terrorism alerts for Philippines
AP
By HRVOJE HRANJSKI,Associated Press - 16 minutes ago

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MANILA, Philippines – France joined the U.S. and four other countries Friday in warning about possible terrorist attacks in the Philippines, even as the country's president expressed dismay with what he said were unduly alarmist reports.

In its travel advisory, the French Foreign Ministry said a risk of terrorist attack exists in the entire Philippines and particularly in urban areas near airports, shopping centers, places of worship, hotels and places frequented by foreigners.

The U.S., Britain, Australia, Canada and New Zealand issued similar alerts early this week that expanded previous travel warnings for the volatile southern Philippines, where Muslim rebels and al-Qaida militants are active, to include the capital, Manila.

Australia, citing unspecified but reliable reports, said an attack in Manila may be imminent.

Philippine Defense Secretary Voltaire Gazmin has said that the military and police have not uncovered any specific threat. Still, government forces in Manila have been put on the highest state of readiness.

Security has been stepped up at malls and airports, where police increased their visibility with bomb-sniffing dogs and baggage inspections.

President Benigno Aquino III on Thursday expressed dismay at the series of security advisories. He said his government was not informed about the advisories even though they came from the country's allies.

He said they jeopardized the tourism industry and added "unnecessary anxiety to our citizens."

"I think it's blown out of proportion," he said in an interview with ABS-CBN television, adding his government would express its displeasure.

A Philippine official told The Associated Press on Wednesday the warnings may have come from a confidential terrorist threat assessment report by Western security officials indicating that Muslim extremists may attack a popular Manila mall, a trade center and political figures, including two Manila-based Asian diplomats. The official, who monitors security threats, spoke on condition of anonymity due to a lack of authority to talk to the press.

The Philippines, including its capital, has been hit by deadly terrorist attacks in the past.

Despite years of battle setbacks, Muslim militants, including those from the al-Qaida-linked Abu Sayyaf, have continued to plot attacks, at times collaborating with Indonesian militants, according to the military.

Abu Sayyaf militants were blamed for the bombing of a ferry in Manila Bay in 2004, setting off an inferno that killed 116 people. A year later, the militants claimed responsibility for bombings of a bus in Manila and two southern towns that killed eight people and wounded more than 100 others.

___

Associated Press writer Jim Gomez contributed to this report.

^^ nakita ko to sa yahoo,... i think this countries also wants us to make our Military Modernization quick,... tingnan niyo,... these countries or some are the Major Military suppliers in the world,... parang strategy nila para tayo bumili sa kanila ng makabagong armas that could improve our security,...

Simple Dude

November 5th, 2010, 04:21 AM

kidding aside....we should continue training pilots....even when we don't have the jets yet.....training people is a lot harder and takes time to hone their skills.....while still dreaming for those planes....just keep training our young officers.....there is wisdom to it...you'll see..when money comes and we're able to buy those jets already.....then there is already a pool of qualified men to fly them......just continue preparing.....

^^ I agree!! lets just use what we have for now,...
because one day,... we will rise again,... :okay:

Linguine

November 5th, 2010, 05:18 AM

http://images.inquirer.net/media/networkindex/images/pic-11050117490520.jpg

SLEEK NEW TRAINER PLANES. Four of 18 brand-new SF-260 trainer planes from Italy are turned over to the Philippine Air Force at Clark Air Base in Pampanga on Thursday. The planes, purchased under the military’s modernization program, cost a total of P621,671,409.06, including spare parts, training and logistical support. RAFFY LERMA

mwg12a

November 5th, 2010, 06:24 AM

^^ nakita ko to sa yahoo,... i think this countries also wants us to make our Military Modernization quick,... tingnan niyo,... these countries or some are the Major Military suppliers in the world,... parang strategy nila para tayo bumili sa kanila ng makabagong armas that could improve our security,...

I am more inclined to think that this is a ploy to destabilize the country and sabotage the economy. I don't think those country would do that just for profit. They know that the Philippines has no enough money for all these. Although, it may also be a way to pressure the Philippine government to act quickly to modernize it's own military. US has their troops in the Philippines so they are not too worried about these but they still have to provide warning. It's easy for al quaeda to convince the Philippine rebels to create a havoc because of their own personal agenda. Al Quaeda is just taking advantage of these.

Simple Dude

November 5th, 2010, 08:14 AM

I am more inclined to think that this is a ploy to destabilize the country and sabotage the economy. I don't think those country would do that just for profit. They know that the Philippines has no enough money for all these. Although, it may also be a way to pressure the Philippine government to act quickly to modernize it's own military. US has their troops in the Philippines so they are not too worried about these but they still have to provide warning. It's easy for al quaeda to convince the Philippine rebels to create a havoc because of their own personal agenda. Al Quaeda is just taking advantage of these.

We have the money to buy these weapons,... but its not yet the priority,... and yeah, your right... since that the dollar is going down and Philippine economy is getting better,... :cheers:

kenken94

November 5th, 2010, 02:59 PM

Why are these countries issuing travel advisories when in fact they should just issue those on people TRAVELING WITHIN THEIR OWN COUNTRY?

I mean, look at the most recent reports, terror attacks from Al-Queda were all concentrated on Western European countries like Great Britain and France and North American nations like Canada or the United States. London and Paris are all hotspots for bomb threats. Even their ultra-sophisticated police force are even taking a toll on locating and stopping these attacks. They should look at their own selves first.

They're the ones who's sending more and more troops to Afghanistan and Pakistan. I guess they can't see that the threat is focused on causing terror on THEIR country more than any place in the globe. Terrorist look at America as it's worst enemy so of course their efforts are all focused on destabilizing these nations.

I believe I can consider the Philippines is a lot more safer than London, Paris or New York. Metro Manila and Metro Cebu are all highly secured Metropolitan Areas with Cebu being declared as insurgency free and safe for foreign travelers.

Even Mindanao, I've been traveling back and forth to a lot of areas in Mindanao and yet there's not a single terror attack except ARMM of course. Davao, Zamboanga, Tagum, Butuan and CDO are all safe cities to travel.

Maybe the Philippines should issue a high travel advisory on these nations since they're the ones being bombed not us. I can't understand what's on the mind of these people.

Kintoy

November 5th, 2010, 03:05 PM

PAF pilots have flight simulators powered by Microsoft (software used)

http://www.philskies.net/library/peter/lipa2-3.jpg

http://flyawaysimulation.com/userimages/FSX-box-artwork-Deluxe.jpg

that PC looks like a Pentium III pa :lol:

juniordiscovery

November 5th, 2010, 03:56 PM

:okay: yey, more trainer planes...:D

http://www8.gmanews.tv/images/topstories/ZZZ_110410_2.jpg

Air Force personnel prepare one of 18 new SF-260 F trainer planes from Italy during turnover rites at Clark Airbase in Pampanga on Thursday. Mark Adrian
from GMANews.tv

:cheers:

Nice! May dumating na na apat... :cheers::okay:

crossboneka

November 5th, 2010, 03:58 PM

that PC looks like a Pentium III pa :lol:

e flash game lng yang flight simulator nla kaya pede na yan :lol: :lol:

i've heard ung Philippine Army nman natn Plants Vs Zombies daw gamit.

Arvor

November 5th, 2010, 04:12 PM

There are travel advice on every possible destination issued by the home country intended mainly for their own travellers or citizens safety, the Phillippines is not singled out for any political reason or otherwise they simply dont have any need for it, the only political and unjustified overreaction ive seen towards the Phillippines in my lifetime is the Hong Kong travel restrictions following the now forgotten bus hostage incident .

---

Regarding the microsoft flight simulators lol yeah i saw that in the documentary on youtube of the paf that i posted on here a few months ago, i must admit it made me laugh a bit .

I remember this flight simulator in SM mega mall in like 1995 one of the times i was home and it had some hydraulics moving the cabin a bit while you try and land this boeing 747 during a storm, kailangan may mag uga uga doon sa cessna plane cockpit lol .

Or at least a flatscreen monitor im willing do donate mine lol ? .

----

YyMQlALrX80&p
If the air force really wanted to im sure they could find enough money to buy one of these .

http://cms.ukintpress.com/UserFiles/Image/TTT%20images/TNO_Desdemona-traffic-siumlator.jpg

The Desdemona concept was developed by TNO Human Factors (The Netherlands)(www.tno.nl) in conjunction with AMST Systemtechnik (Austria) (www.amst.co.at). It features a rotating cockpit similar to the Xenosphere, mounted on a rotating platform, allowing translation and rotation in all directions. The cockpit can move along an 8 m horizontal track, along with a 2 m translation on the vertical axis. Acceleration of 0.5 G is attainable while moving along the horizontal and vertical track. The entire platform is rotated around a vertical axis, opening the possibility to centrifugal force. Variation of the angular velocity with constant eccentricity results in a varying G-load. This can also be achieved by varying the eccentricity while keeping angular velocity constant. This allows the Desdemona to simulate accelerations up to 3G.

----

http://www.infranor.ltd.uk/images/4-virtual-simulators.jpg

Actually perhaps SM corp, Phillipine airlines, Cebu Pacific and the Phillippine air force with some extra funds from the government could join to procure and build some kind of state of the art simulator facility in Manila .

The facility will be open to paying private individuals and pilot schools during office or commercial hours, while the airlines could also then pay to use it for training their pilots, meanwhile the air force could run or man the system for free removing labour costs and helping the private partners make some profit, and in return for all this the air force and government can use the simulators for free after office and commercial hours so during the evenings and the entire night until dawn, hows that for public/private partnership ... .

Kintoy

November 5th, 2010, 04:15 PM

e flash game lng yang flight simulator nla kaya pede na yan :lol: :lol:

i've heard ung Philippine Army nman natn Plants Vs Zombies daw gamit.

sobra ka naman. pwede naman yung Pentium III sa counter Strike...

gmaer

November 5th, 2010, 04:58 PM

Who wants to be a Marine?

Marines set up recruitment center at Mall of Asia (http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=627204&publicationSubCategoryId=63)
By Jaime Laude (The Philippine Star) Updated November 05, 2010 12:00 AM

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/939/gen5k.jpg

MANILA, Philippines - Recruitment of idealistic and disciplined young men and women to its ranks highlighted the celebration of the Marine Corps’ 60th anniversary yesterday.

The recruitment was held at the SM Mall of Asia in Pasay City. Also part of the celebration was a photo exhibit of the Marine Corps’ achievements and fighting capability.

Marine recruitment officer 2Lt. Gizzell Sernat said successful applicants would have a stable job and an opportunity to serve the country.

“The Marines would rather die than lose their honor. Trainees will be idealistic. They will be given a stable job and good salary,” Sernat told The STAR.

“The trainees would learn the value of discipline. They will also experience the camaraderie shared by the Marines,” she added.

Sernat said another recruitment activity would be held in Isabela province next week. She said the Marines target 2,000 recruits this year.

Applicants should be 18 to 21 years old and should have completed at least 72 units of any college course. Those who graduated from courses offered by Technical Education and Skills Development Authority are also qualified to apply.

Applicants must submit accomplished application forms and take tests designed to assess their intelligence quotient, abstract, verbal, and mathematical skills and knowledge of current events.

After passing such tests, applicants will be subjected to physical tests to determine if they are fit to join the training.

Sernat said the Marines have also conducted recruitment activities in Iloilo, Tugegarao and in Pangasinan.

Other activities marking the corps’ anniversary were film showing, demonstration of fighting and rescue capabilities, and silent drills.

There are about 9,000 Marine troops and trainees in the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP).

Meanwhile, the AFP launched its yearly military sports festival yesterday. AFP chief of staff Gen. Ricardo David graced the event held at Camp Aguinaldo.

Also present were Army chief Lt. Gen. Arturo Ortiz, Air Force chief Lt. Gen. Oscar Rabena and Navy chief Vice Admiral Danilo Cortez.

The three declined to comment when asked about the alleged terror threat that prompted the US and four other countries to issue travel advisories to their citizens in the country.

“The AFP chief had spoken,” Ortiz said.

Earlier, David downplayed the terror plot, saying that the military had not detected any credible terror threat in Metro Manila or in other parts of the country.

gmaer

November 5th, 2010, 10:21 PM

e flash game lng yang flight simulator nla kaya pede na yan :lol: :lol:

i've heard ung Philippine Army nman natn Plants Vs Zombies daw gamit.

Contra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_(video_game)) po gamit nila... :bash:

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/contra-world-challenge-big.jpg

gmaer

November 5th, 2010, 10:30 PM

are you nuts.....yan sf 260 ang gagamitin mo sa gulo.....:lol: hagingan lang yan ng isang jet bagsak yan.....ako pa ang napahiya.....do you have any idea on airplanes.....o eto basahin mo.....Jane's All the World's aircraft...dami mo pick up dyan....

The SF-260 can be used in COIN operations as a ground attack plane not as an air defense interceptor.

matutuwa lang ako kay gazmin kung makakapag deliver sya ng kahit 8 jets lang....ok na....kahit anong klase.....basta jets....

Any Jets will do? :banana:

http://rbiii.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/foes.jpg?w=375&h=324

rubiopr27

November 6th, 2010, 02:03 AM

The SF-260 can be used in COIN operations as a ground attack plane not as an air defense interceptor.

Any Jets will do? :banana:

http://rbiii.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/foes.jpg?w=375&h=324

an F-86 and a MiG 15? Korean War pa 'yan...

_________________________________________________________________
FIGHT FOR FREEDOM!

mwg12a

November 6th, 2010, 02:06 AM

That's what I thought !! :lol: Mas mukhang moderno pa yuong decomissioned fighter jets ng pinas nuon kaysa diyan.

ambott2002

November 7th, 2010, 10:58 AM

maghintay n lng tau kay bongbong o kay gibo wala talga tau maasahan sa admin na toh...

jpdm

November 7th, 2010, 12:39 PM

That's what I thought !! :lol: Mas mukhang moderno pa yuong decomissioned fighter jets ng pinas nuon kaysa diyan.

But they are just trainer aircrafts actually. As gmaer said they can double as COIN if not used for training.

Perhaps, if the economy improves and money will be available, we can always find some cheap but new aircrafts maybe from Italy, Russia, Israel and even from former Warsaw pact countries like Czech Rep. and Poland.

French, British, Swedish, European (West) and American war machines are very expensive and we cant afford them.

kalbongdad

November 7th, 2010, 01:52 PM

an F-86 and a MiG 15? Korean War pa 'yan...

_________________________________________________________________
FIGHT FOR FREEDOM!

ok na yan.....basta jets....wag lang di propeller....:lol:.....

Simple Dude

November 7th, 2010, 02:39 PM

Simple Dude

November 7th, 2010, 02:41 PM

maghintay n lng tau kay bongbong o kay gibo wala talga tau maasahan sa admin na toh...

^^ man, c'mon we need patience 1st... di pa nga natapos yung termino ni Pnoy eh,... lets wait kahit half of his term lang like 3 years from now,... kung wala paring pag babago,... dun, mag reklamo ka,... pag ngayon, its too early for this hehe :D

Linguine

November 7th, 2010, 03:12 PM

Brand new trainer planes bolster confidence of PAF pilot-trainees
Sunday, 07 November 2010 09:25 Zaff Solmerin

http://www.businessmirror.com.ph/images/stories/daily_images/2010/November2010/11082010/nation01.jpg

THE confidence of some 170 young pilot trainees of the Philippine Air Force is a bit bolstered by the purchased of 18 brand-new four-seater SF260FH trainer planes from Augusta of Italy, four of which were subjected to test flights recently at the Air Force City in Clarkfield, Pampanga.

Air Force chief Lt. Gen. Oscar Rabena said assembly of eight of the planes will be done by December and the rest will be completed by April 2011 since the spare parts were arriving in batches from Alenia Aermacchii S.p.A, the plane manufacturer.

AEROTECH Industries Philippines Inc., Aermacchi’s local industry partner, is the assembler of the SF-260FH.

The 18 aircraft are worth P622.59 million, just a small portion of the projected P7-billion funds needed to modernize the air assets of the military.

“Of course, we’re happy because after three years of waiting after the award of the project, now we’ve these brand-new aircraft for our young pilot trainees,” said Rabena when asked about the confidence of the trainees and their trainers.

Vintage aircraft such as Huey helicopters and Nomad planes and other ageing planes of the Air Forces had been tagged as “flying coffins” and/or “widow-makers.”

Trained pilots showcased the new planes in aerial exhibition before they proceeded to Lipa City, home of the Air Force’s flying school.

“The trainer aircrafts are in service with the 27 different miltiary customers, civil professional flying schools and private operations worldwide with 1,000 units in flight operations. The fleet has flown almost two million hours. The latest customers include the Italian Air Force,” Rabena said.

The technical specifications of the plane have a span of 8.35-m and length of 7.40-m. It has maximum takeoff of 1,350-kg. It’s engine is marked Allison 250-B17D Turboprop; Power, SLS, ISA —350 HP; Limited Speed—236 KEAS; Limited Load Factor—+6/-3 g; Maximum Level Speed—228 KTAS; Rate of Climb—2,200 ft/min; and Range Clean—350 nm.

Last year, the Air Force purchased 15 T-41 trainer planes from South Korea that were already being used by pilot trainees.

In the pipeline for the Air Force are seven attack choppers worth P3.2 billion, eight utility choppers worth P2.8 billion and a refurbished C-130H cargo plane worth $34 million.

Zaff Solmerin

In Photo: Defense Secretary Gazmin prepares to pour champagne on the plane’s wing, while PAF Chief Lt. Gen. Oscar Rabena and APF Chief Gen. Ricardo David Jr. (inside the plane) look on. (Zaff Solmerin)

http://www.businessmirror.com.ph/home/nation/3391-brand-new-trainer-planes-bolster-confidence-of-paf-pilot-trainees

Arvor

November 7th, 2010, 03:24 PM

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/South_China_Sea/images/CIA_Map_%20SCS_for_publication.gif

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/South_China_Sea/images/Ownership_Claims-Middlebury.gif

I really wonder why ASEAN has been unable to forge at the very least a common front in rejecting Chinese claims in the ASEAN sea ... lol, it is after all a common security threat to the majority of ASEAN states .

http://www.asiaobserver.com/images/fbfiles/images/Nanhai_claim.gif

http://media.economist.com/images/20090314/CAS917.gif

Alinghi

November 7th, 2010, 03:35 PM

^^ the ASEAN is weak in terms of a unified stand against issues.. gone are the days when we had a united ASEAN that approaches problems with a unified policy.. and we don't have regional leaders anymore like Fidel Ramos, Mahathir Mohamad, Lee Kuan Yew who can rally ASEAN countries to a common beneficial cause :ohno:

Arvor

November 7th, 2010, 04:11 PM

http://0.tqn.com/d/history1900s/1/0/2/O/viet35.jpg

The Southeast Asia Treaty Organization (SEATO) was an international organization for collective defense which was signed on September 8, 1954 in Manila. The formal institution of SEATO was established at a meeting of treaty partners in Bangkok in February 1955. It was primarily created to block further communist gains in Southeast Asia. The organization's headquarters were located in Bangkok, Thailand. SEATO was dissolved on June 30, 1977.

ASEAN spans over an area of 4.46 million km2, 3% of the total land area of Earth, with a population of approximately 600 million people, 8.8% of the world population. In 2010, its combined nominal GDP had grown to USD $1.8 trillion. If ASEAN was a single country, it would rank as the 9th largest economy in the world and the 3rd largest in Asia in terms of nominal GDP.

Yeah we need to re establish SEATO or some new form of it to include former communist foes now fellow members like Vietnam and Laos etc, at the very least a solidarity defense clause against unwarranted invasion by non ASEAN countries of ASEAN members and their territories under international laws .

If ASEAN as a whole spent togheter on defense 2.5% of gdp it could mean around 45 billion$ putting its defence budget at the top 10 or equal Japans defence budget .

mwg12a

November 7th, 2010, 09:23 PM

But they are just trainer aircrafts actually. As gmaer said they can double as COIN if not used for training.

Perhaps, if the economy improves and money will be available, we can always find some cheap but new aircrafts maybe from Italy, Russia, Israel and even from former Warsaw pact countries like Czech Rep. and Poland.

French, British, Swedish, European (West) and American war machines are very expensive and we cant afford them.

I know i was refering to that one pic he posted as jets not the SF-260. I know SF-260s are just for training.

maghintay n lng tau kay bongbong o kay gibo wala talga tau maasahan sa admin na toh...

Sana nga tumakbo si Gibo at matalo si Aquino sa reelection. Malaki sigurong intriga pag si Bongbong Marcos ang lalaban. Malakas din ang hatak nito dahil marami pa ring supporter, pero, hindi yata magandang tignan dahil, mag spark na naman ng panibagong issue.

Rajah_Soliman

November 7th, 2010, 10:03 PM

eeeeewwwwww :rofl:

more power and good luck to all our pilots :bash: :cheers:

PAF pilots have flight simulators powered by Microsoft (software used)

http://www.philskies.net/library/peter/lipa2-3.jpg

http://flyawaysimulation.com/userimages/FSX-box-artwork-Deluxe.jpg

The SF-260 can also be used for COIN operations (the Warrior version)

http://www.timawa.net/images/paf/sf260warrior.jpg

bitoy

November 7th, 2010, 10:04 PM

Sana nga tumakbo si Gibo at matalo si Aquino sa reelection. Malaki sigurong intriga pag si Bongbong Marcos ang lalaban. Malakas din ang hatak nito dahil marami pa ring supporter, pero, hindi yata magandang tignan dahil, mag spark na naman ng panibagong issue.

:lol: Wala ng re-election for presidency for PNoy. :D

Gibo and Bongbong? :lol: only a real fortuneteller would know.

Wala naman talagang maasahan sa administrasyon na ito ang mga MAGNANAKAW...kelangan, magnakaw sila ng panibagong style na mahirap mabuko. :D

mwg12a

November 7th, 2010, 10:28 PM

eeeeewwwwww :rofl:

more power and good luck to all our pilots :bash: :cheers:

Bakit naman? Lahat naman ng piloto, dito tinuturuan sa mga flight simulators, pag nag rerenew sila ng license, dito din sila pinapakuha. Effective yang flight simulators na yan. Mas nagiging effective nalo na kung may hands on na sila. Hindi sa quality ng pilot training ang dapat dapat worry, sa decision making nila at yuong faith ng aircrafts na ginagamit nila. Hindi mo alam, lahat ng commercial airlines na sinaskyan mo, trained din sa flight simulator sa umpisa yuong iba sa mga cessna lang :lol::lol:

Linguine

November 8th, 2010, 04:49 AM

Navy wants multi-role vessels
By Ding Cervantes (The Philippine Star) Updated November 08, 2010 12:00 AM Comments (19) View comments

CLARK FREEPORT, Philippines – The Navy wants to procure multi-role vessels (MRVs) similar to one that sailed through turbulent waters to deliver relief goods to residents of Pangasinan and Isabela isolated by rains during typhoon “Juan.”

Col. Ariel Caculitan, acting Navy public affairs chief, said these vessels will enhance the Navy’s security efforts and boost its capability in performing disaster and calamity-related missions.

An MRV can also serve as a floating government humanitarian center during times of calamity, he added.

Caculitan said the vessel can be a platform for medical treatment of calamity victims in isolated areas.

“It can also accommodate a host of activities of the Department of Social Welfare and Development (DSWD) and non-government organizations for the affected communities, be a springboard for disaster response and rescue operations teams, and carry other logistic and engineering supplies and equipment that are needed in response to a humanitarian emergency anywhere in the archipelago,” he said.

During typhoon “Juan,” Caculitan said an MRV carrying Marines and Navy men surged through rough seas and reached isolated folk in Divilacan and Isabela to deliver 36 tons of food and other basic needs from the United Nations Children’s Emergency Fund and the DSWD.

“The MRV also had a 60-man rescue team, a communications team, medical team, two payloaders, trailers, and a crane used for undertaking engineering and rehabilitation of various facilities,” he said.

“The urgency of acquiring the MRV is often felt strongly during times when people’s lives and properties are in great danger,” he said.

The MRV measures 120 meters and can load up to 7,200 tons of cargo.

It can accommodate 100 crewmen and 500 passengers and travels at a speed of 12 knots.

Meanwhile, Aerotech Philippines Inc., the local counterpart of Italian aircraft manufacturer Alenia Aermacchi, has turned over to the Air Force four brand new SF-620 trainer aircraft, comprising the first batch of 18 such aircraft costing a total of P622.59 million intended to be delivered to the PAF up to April next year.

gmaer

November 8th, 2010, 05:53 PM

ok na yan.....basta jets....wag lang di propeller....:lol:.....

Can you cite an Air Force that doesn't use propeller driven aircraft to train their combat pilots first before handling jet powered aircraft? Pilot training starts from classroom lecture and flight simulators to turbo prop trainers then to basic jet trainers and the actual fighter jet.

Simple Dude

November 8th, 2010, 06:10 PM

^^ diba nag acquire na yung Navy ng MRV from S.Korea?

gmaer

November 8th, 2010, 06:28 PM

^^ diba nag acquire na yung Navy ng MRV from S.Korea?

They already ordered one MRV from South Korea that looks like the Indonesian Makassar class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makassar_class_landing_platform_dock) LPD while the 2nd one might be acquired from Singapore.

http://www.manilastandardtoday.com/insideNation.htm?f=2010/may/17/nation3.isx&d=2010/may/17

ryxies27

November 9th, 2010, 12:49 AM

Cebu shipbuilder to deliver PH’s largest vessel

180,000 DWT ship bought by Japanese firm

By Paolo Montecillo
Philippine Daily Inquirer
First Posted 22:10:00 11/08/2010

Filed Under: business, Shipbuilding, International (Foreign)Trade
Most Read

MANILA, Philippines—Cebu-based shipbuilder Tsuneishi Heavy Industries Inc. (Thici), one of Cebu’s largest employers, is set to deliver the biggest locally built sea vessel to its new owners this Thursday.

In a statement, Thici—a joint venture between Japan’s Tsuneishi group and local conglomerate Aboitiz Equity Ventures (AEV)—said it recently completed the construction of a 180,000 deadweight ton bulk cargo vessel to be delivered to Kambara Kisen of Japan.

“The bulk carrier with hull number SC-185 and named Tenshu Maru is the 114th ship built by the company,” it said in a statement. Thici delivered its 113th ship to its owners only last July 12.

Thici is located in Balamban, Cebu, and was established in 1994. The company builds merchant ships of up to 100,000 deadweight tons and delivers to different parts of the world.

Thici uses the same high-quality shipbuilding technologies and standards as those in Tsuneishi, Japan. The Japanese firm owns 80 percent of the company while the Aboitiz group owns the balance of the shares.

Thici’s main facilities are located at a 55-hectare land and consists of two slipways, floating docks for ship repair, floating cranes, warehouse, assembly factory, hardcover factory, pipe factory, paint shop, machine shop and an office building.

Last year, the company said it had invested P12 billion for the expansion of the Cebu facility that will eventually employ around 9,000 workers from the 4,000 a year ago.

The Cebu-based Aboitiz family is also engaged in other industries such as transportation, banking, energy generation, food, real estate and construction.

AEV chalked up a P5.6-billion profit in the third quarter of the year—up by 128 percent year on year—on the back of robust power, banking and food businesses.

For the nine-month period, AEV posted a consolidated net income of P16.8 billion, an increase of 187 percent year on year. This translated to earnings per share of P3.05 for the period.

:okay:
I hope they start making war ships for our country :lol:

kalbongdad

November 9th, 2010, 01:26 AM

agree...my idea is buy new ships from euro countries and then have the other ships built here using their technologies para meron technology transfer....

Alinghi

November 9th, 2010, 03:42 AM

They already ordered one MRV from South Korea that looks like the Indonesian Makassar class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makassar_class_landing_platform_dock) LPD while the 2nd one might be acquired from Singapore.

http://www.manilastandardtoday.com/insideNation.htm?f=2010/may/17/nation3.isx&d=2010/may/17

very good news for the AFP. I hope this will be the impetus for the PN's transformation into a credible maritime armed force and eventually lead to its blue-water capability :)

Simple Dude

November 9th, 2010, 05:25 AM

They already ordered one MRV from South Korea that looks like the Indonesian Makassar class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makassar_class_landing_platform_dock) LPD while the 2nd one might be acquired from Singapore.

http://www.manilastandardtoday.com/insideNation.htm?f=2010/may/17/nation3.isx&d=2010/may/17

ok, thanks for the info. dude :okay:

Wow, this is a good start for our Navy,... hope sa airforce and land forces din magkaroon ng makabagong teknolohiya next year,... :cheers:

muzic_lover2981

November 9th, 2010, 06:14 AM

this is indeed a great news! Hopin that tuloy tuloy na ang pag upgrade ng AFP.

kalbongdad

November 9th, 2010, 06:16 AM

ambott2002

November 9th, 2010, 03:14 PM

Linguine

November 9th, 2010, 03:24 PM

Abolish PMA?
By DEXTER A. SEE
November 9, 2010, 7:41pm

BAGUIO CITY – National and local officials in this mountain resort city vehemently opposed the passage of House Bill (HB) 1090 filed by Surigao 1st District Rep. Philip Pichay to abolish the Philippine Military Academy (PMA) in order to lessen or eradicate “the baneful effects of the mistah system in the military and police organizations” which often lead to destabilization activities that affect the country’s momentum in achieving economic growth.

Mayor Mauricio G. Domogan cited PMA had been serving as a solid training ground for responsible and dedicated military and police officers who have shown their sincerity in the service.

While there were a few military and police officers who joined efforts to overthrow several administrations, Domogan said this should not be used as an argument to abolish the premier military school in Asia, considering that the same are isolated incidents.

For his part, Rep. Bernardo M. Vergara said it is ironic that military adventurists came from the ranks of the PMA, the primary institution tasked to mold officers who should be at the forefront of defense against constitutional adversaries, citing that such premise is not sufficient to warrant the abolition of the Academy because reforms were already instituted to get rid of such malpractices.

However, Vergara revealed the move to abolish the Academy will go nowhere since he, an official of the PMA Host Parents Association, will lead congressmen to block the same.

Under Pichay’s proposal, PMA will be eventually abolished and the same will be divided into three specialized schools, one each for the Army, Navy, and Air Force.

Earlier, PMA officials branded Pichay’s proposal as mere talk, saying the chances of the bill being enacted into law is dim.

Pichay’s proposal added the tri-service academies will provide 2-year officer courses which will embody the academic and training needs of the major services command.

Applicants to the tri-service academies should have finished a basic 2-year college course equivalent to 72 units. The applicants must be at least 19 years old but not more than 21 years old at the time of his or her entry to any of the academies.

http://www.mb.com.ph/articles/286711/abolish-pma

Lurker99

November 9th, 2010, 03:30 PM

kalbongdad

November 9th, 2010, 03:33 PM

baka yung pakpak lang yung lumipad :lol::bash:

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

gmaer

November 9th, 2010, 04:41 PM

salamat sec. gonzales......:lol: btw.....kahit yung air force bilhan na lang ng isang squadron man lang ng eastern european jet fighters....ok na....medyo mura dun.....wag lang yung mga chinese made....:lol:

I don't think China will even allow its own cheap but modern fighter jets like the J-10 and JF-17 to be used to defend Philippine interest like in the Spratly Islands unless the Philippine Air Force will acquire them from Pakistan who is a licensed non-Chinese producer of the JF-17 Thunder.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YniKlbPh29k/SR_8zKXXPnI/AAAAAAAACqg/GSUjZV1bczM/s400/jf17_thunder_pakistan3.jpg

gmaer

November 9th, 2010, 04:46 PM

ok, thanks for the info. dude :okay:

Wow, this is a good start for our Navy,... hope sa airforce and land forces din magkaroon ng makabagong teknolohiya next year,... :cheers:

The Philippine Army will be acquiring more upgraded versions of the Vietnam War-era M113 APC called the ACV-300 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACV-300) from Turkey while the Philippine Air Force's recent development is still the SF-260 turboprop trainer planes and the successful bid of a 2nd hand refurbished C-130 Hercules.

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3850/acv300commandpostmalays.jpg

gmaer

November 9th, 2010, 04:56 PM

baka yung pakpak lang yung lumipad :lol::bash:

Meron naman talaga lumilipad na pakpak lang eh :lol:

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/3990/b2yj2.jpg

Simple Dude

November 9th, 2010, 05:36 PM

The Philippine Army will be acquiring more upgraded versions of the Vietnam War-era M113 APC called the ACV-300 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACV-300) from Turkey while the Philippine Air Force's recent development is still the SF-260 turboprop trainer planes and the successful bid of a 2nd hand refurbished C-130 Hercules.

^^ wow, so ilan ba yung total estimate mo ang darating pa? hehe hope umabot 500 and modern equipments are next hehe :banana: :banana:

hope next time mga light tanks naman and 155mm Howitzers... diba yun naman yung plan for the Army,... but i also suggest more amphibious tanks for the marines and more frigates and corvettes for the Navy... :D

Simple Dude

November 9th, 2010, 05:41 PM

I don't think China will even allow its own cheap but modern fighter jets like the J-10 and JF-17 to be used to defend Philippine interest like in the Spratly Islands unless the Philippine Air Force will acquire them from Pakistan who is a licensed non-Chinese producer of the JF-17 Thunder.

^^ yeah hehe and i think we just have to push through with the planned F/A-18,... kahit isang squadron lang,... or a total of 80+... :cheers:

gmaer

November 9th, 2010, 05:53 PM

^^ wow, so ilan ba yung total estimate mo ang darating pa? hehe hope umabot 500 and modern equipments are next hehe :banana: :banana:

hope next time mga light tanks naman and 155mm Howitzers... diba yun naman yung plan for the Army,... but i also suggest more amphibious tanks for the marines and more frigates and corvettes for the Navy... :D

6 ACV-300s were already acquired in November last year and was already used in action in Masbate and Mindanao. I think 14 more is under way. The Philippine Army does have a few 155mm howitzers but they rarely use them because these are border guns best suited for long distance bombardment like if you are in a DMZ.

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m109/40niner_com/gear/155-1.jpg

Simple Dude

November 9th, 2010, 05:54 PM

this is indeed a great news! Hopin that tuloy tuloy na ang pag upgrade ng AFP.

^^ yah,... thats what we all dream,... i think one reason din kung bat di umuunlad yung bansa coz of lack of security and unstable government,... as an archipelago,... we should strengthen 1st our Navy,... and 2 is the air force,... 3rd is the ground forces to have a strong Territorial Defense,... and i hope and pray that this would happen in the year 2016 or 2020,... :cheers:

Simple Dude

November 9th, 2010, 05:55 PM

6 were already acquired in November last year and 14 more I think is under way.

di ba kulang yan?? hehe :cheers:

gmaer

November 9th, 2010, 06:15 PM

di ba kulang yan?? hehe :cheers:

The budget as of September 2010 to acquire more ACV-300s was only P882 million (14 only) but the real plan was to get 34.

Simple Dude

November 9th, 2010, 06:19 PM

^^ ngee? 34? maliit pa yan hehe pero at least meron,... :lol:

Simple Dude

November 9th, 2010, 06:24 PM

The Philippine Army does have a few 155mm howitzers but they rarely use them because these are border guns best suited for long distance bombardment like if you are in a DMZ.

^^ we still need more and need to use those we have,... for our soldiers safety,... and we badly need more armored vehicles like light tanks and some transport vehicles... and most of all we really need more modern choppers,... :cheers: hehe

kalbongdad

November 10th, 2010, 01:42 AM

^^ we still need more and need to use those we have,... for our soldiers safety,... and we badly need more armored vehicles like light tanks and some transport vehicles... and most of all we really need more modern choppers,... :cheers: hehe

as far as tanks apcs and choppers of the army are concerned...medyo hindi tayo behind....sa mil thread....parang mahigit 42 na ata ang bagong secondhand choppers ng pinas (ironic) sa panahon ni little evil gloria.....the focus should be on the navy and air force.....yung navy medyo nabilhan na at least medyo may mga bago silang MPACs....helos na lang kulang sa kanila at mga a dozen ships pa ok na sila.....yung airforce talaga ang kailangan ng fighter jets.....we should buy from european sources.....kahit isang squadron lang muna ok na.....

Linguine

November 10th, 2010, 02:04 AM

Philippines, Vietnam sign defense agreement
By Dona Pazzibugan
Philippine Daily Inquirer First Posted 07:08:00 11/10/2010 Filed Under: Defense, agreements, Foreign affairs & international relations, Military

MANILA, Philippines—The Philippines has entered into a defense cooperation agreement with Vietnam that calls for exchange visits and educational exchanges between the military of the two nations.

Defense Secretary Voltaire Gazmin signed the memorandum of agreement (MOA) on defense cooperation with Vietnamese Defense Minister Gen. Phung Quang Thanh during the recent state visit to Vietnam of President Benigno Aquino III.

The MOA seeks to strengthen dialogue and cooperation between the Philippine Department of National Defense (DND) and the Ministry of National Defense of Vietnam.

“One of the features of the MOA is the conduct of visits and educational exchanges between the Armed Forces of the Philippines and the Vietnamese Peoples’ Army,” the DND said in a statement.

Gazmin, a retired Army general, paid an official visit to Vietnam last Oct. 25 when he had a bilateral meeting with General Thanh.

Gazmin was part of Mr Aquino’s delegation during the two-day state visit to Vietnam on Oct. 26.

gaLj

November 10th, 2010, 03:14 AM

muzic_lover2981

November 10th, 2010, 06:29 AM

Guys i have found something that really interesting....
but i want confirmation if this is true?
We have m-41 Bulldog tank?

try to open this link:
http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=11402.0

kalbongdad

November 10th, 2010, 10:40 AM

xxxriainxxx

November 10th, 2010, 02:40 PM

Gazmin aborts Spratlys landing (http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/regions/view/20101110-302455/Gazmin-aborts-Spratlys-landing)
By Redempto Anda
Inquirer Southern Luzon
First Posted 12:26:00 11/10/2010

Filed Under: Military, Foreign affairs & international relations, Spratlys
PUERTO PRINCESA CITY, Philippines—-Defense Secretary Voltaire Gazmin aborted landing on the island of Pagasa Tuesday afternoon because of the poor condition of its airstrip, scuttling what was to have been his first official visit as defense chief to the disputed territory in the Spratlys.

Returning to Puerto princesa, Gazmin vowed to prioritize the Armed Forces' capability to defend its territorial claim in the Spratlys.

Accompanied by Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) Chief of Staff Ricardo David and Western Command chief Juancho Sabban, the defense secretary decided to head back to the Western Command base in Puerto Princesa City after assessing that the C130 cargo plane carrying them could not use the runway because portions of it had been eroded by rain.

"We were hoping we would be able to land but because of the rains... there was a problem in the runway," Gazmin said at a press briefing following the aborted landing.

Gazmin said he will prioritize the repair and upgrading of the runway on Pagasa Island, the construction of a pier, the improvement of its communications systems and the provision of facilities and amenities for the soldiers stationed in the territory.

"This is all part of our modernization program. We are not neglecting this. I assured General Saban we are taking this very seriously because the Western Command is one of our most important commands," he said.

Gazmin stressed that he wanted to ensure that there are sufficient facilities to ease the condition of soldiers deployed on the islands.

"It is difficult there. Imagine being on an island for two months. We are looking how we can improve the facility to improve the lives of the people who are deployed in these islands," he said.

Gazmin said the defense department was close to finalizing a plan to consolidate a multi-year budget for modernization into a single fund which it can use at a single given time to make purchases.

"We are developing a program where we can have a multi-year obligational authority so we can lump-sum the fund and do the necessary purchases," Gazmin said.

Currently, the Department of National Defense (DND) is working on a P5-billion annual budget to fund its modernization program for the entire Armed Forces.

Asked whether the DND will continue to receive funds from the Malampaya gas pipeline project in northern Palawan for its modernization, Gazmin said, "We are in discussion with the Department of Energy" on the appropriation of the gas royalty funds for AFP's modernization.

"We are developing a process so that whoever takes over (the defense department), this program is already in place," he said.

kalbongdad

November 10th, 2010, 03:22 PM

gmaer

November 10th, 2010, 04:47 PM

Many military assets were procured under GMA Administration.
1. Cyclone Class Patrol Ship
2. 6 ACV-300 more to be procure
3. 20 Refurbish Huey Helicopters
4. 8 Sokols Helicopters
5. 18 SF-260 trainers
And many more...

C130H procurement and refurbishment, IFV's & APC , attacks helicopters (under review), MRV were projects of the previous Administration.

Now, I want to hear what are plans Pnoy's administration for our Military.

The Cyclone class patrol ship was donated (not procured) by the US Navy to the Philippine Navy under the US Military Assistance Program. The recent C-130 bid is from Pnoy's administration and 14 more ACV-300 APCs will be acquired under the new presidency. There were no IFV acquisition made during GMA's term. There will also be more refurbished Huey helicopters under the new administration. Pnoy is still in the process of gathering more funds for the AFP modernization by leasing military properties to private real estate developers.

gmaer

November 10th, 2010, 04:51 PM

Guys i have found something that really interesting....
but i want confirmation if this is true?
We have m-41 Bulldog tank?

try to open this link:
http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=11402.0

Yes the Philippine Army used to have 7 units of the M-41 MBT and they were used during the MNLF war campaigns in the late 1960s. You can see one in display either in the Fort Bonifacio or Camp Aguinaldo military museum. They are all retired now.

gmaer

November 10th, 2010, 04:59 PM

as far as tanks apcs and choppers of the army are concerned...medyo hindi tayo behind....sa mil thread....parang mahigit 42 na ata ang bagong secondhand choppers ng pinas (ironic) sa panahon ni little evil gloria.....the focus should be on the navy and air force.....yung navy medyo nabilhan na at least medyo may mga bago silang MPACs....helos na lang kulang sa kanila at mga a dozen ships pa ok na sila.....yung airforce talaga ang kailangan ng fighter jets.....we should buy from european sources.....kahit isang squadron lang muna ok na.....

European fighter jets are also expensive!

1. Eurofighter Typhoon cost $101 million per unit
2. Dassault Rafale cost $90.5 million per unit
3. JAS Gripen cost $61 million per unit

* All excluding export tax, training, supply, maintenance, and operating cost

Arvor

November 10th, 2010, 06:40 PM

gmaer

November 10th, 2010, 07:12 PM

Q0o65MqgKyg
Thai Gripen in Sweden

mq542OpyTU4
Gripen NG

The Gripen is pretty much the best choice overall as it strikes a good balance between price/capability and ruggedness, purchasing other east block designs except for the latest and best of their line such as the SU30 MKI/2 is simply not worth it if we seriously believe in defending our territory, alot of American plane designs on the other hand are getting quite old while their replacements are too costly to both purchase, maintain and operate .

My personal fav of course remains the Rafale .

The Philippine Air Force is looking for a 2-engined multi-role fighter jet :)

Su30MKi vs. JAS Gripen

Unit cost:
Su30MKi is $36.55 million
JAS Gripen is $61 million

Introduced:
2002 for the Su30MKi
1996 for the JAS Gripen

Combat Experience:
Sweden = none
India/Russia = many

Current Users:
Su30MKi = 2
JAS Gripen = 5

Pilots:
Su30MKi = 2
JAS Gripen = 1

Engine:
Su30MKi = 2 x turbofans with thrust vectoring and afterburning
JAS Gripen = 1 x turbofan with afterburning only

Speed:
Su30MKi = Mach 1.9
JAS Gripen = Mach 2

Range:
Su30MKi = 3000km without fuel tanks
JAS Gripen = 3200km with fuel tanks

Main gun:
Su30MKi = 30mm caliber gun (150 rounds)
JAS Gripen = revolving cannon (120 rounds)

Hardpoints:
Su30MKi = 12
JAS Gripen = 7+1

And the winner is... Su30MKi @ $36.55 million per unit is cheaper, newer, was built by countries with real combat experience, has 2 pilots to minimize human errors, has 2 thrust vectoring and after-burning turbofan engines for better survivability, has more range for fuel economy, and more weapons load for more firepower!

http://www.defpro.com/data/gfx/news/a7cd121ecb4a960dace7c1fbfe996ad3fe7a4068_big.jpg
^^ looks good on PAF colors

kalbongdad

November 11th, 2010, 12:50 AM

siguro.....develop na lang tayo ng sariling atin....recruit natin mga aswang sa siquijor....:lol:

Arvor

November 11th, 2010, 02:18 AM

The Philippine Air Force is looking for a 2-engined multi-role fighter jet

If this is the case the super hornet or older f18s would be the more likely outcome due to certain political considerations, the su 30 could be interesting if equipped with western avionics and missiles .

as built by countries with real combat experience

Not really relevant BAE was also involved in the Gripen the UK and US both has more experience than India or Russia .

gaLj

November 11th, 2010, 04:47 AM

^^
With a cash strap budget refurbished planes and light attack/trainer aircrafts are the best we can acquire.

As of yet, we can use our newly acquired propelled planes for COIN, reconnaissance and territorial patrol.

pi_malejana

November 11th, 2010, 08:17 AM

:okay:

AFP receives P172M worth of heavy equipment from China
11/11/2010 | 02:49 PM (http://www.gmanews.tv/story/205714/afp-receives-p172m-worth-of-heavy-equipment-from-china)

The Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) on Thursday received P172 million worth of heavy equipment from the Chinese government to be used in the construction of infrastructure projects in the countryside.

Defense Secretary Voltaire Gazmin and AFP chief Gen. Ricardo David formally received the donation from Chinese Ambassador to the Philippines Liu Jianchao in a ceremony held at Camp Aguinaldo, the military’s main headquarters, in Quezon City.

The donation consisted of eight graders, two loaders, three road rollers, four backhoe loaders, three dump trucks, two road wreckers, an aerial vehicle and 10 bulldozers.

Gazmin said the equipment would be of great assistance to the AFP “in our many developmental nation-building and construction endeavors throughout the country."

David said the aid was timely, noting that the military is aggressively pursuing non-traditional missions, particularly the intensification of constructing developmental projects throughout the country.

“We are building schools, bridges, water facilities and other infrastructures throughout the country, most especially in the far flung areas; hoping to stem the tide of terrorism, which draws strength in the destituteness and impoverishment of communities," he said.

Gazmin thanked the Chinese government “for the generous assistance that we shall treasure as a token of enduring friendship and cooperation between our two nations and peoples."

The AFP in December last year forged an agreement with China’s People’s Liberation Army, paving the way for the future full grant of 12 more units of engineering equipment worth 10 million Chinese Yuan or P113 million to the Philippine military. - KBK, GMANews.TV

jpdm

November 11th, 2010, 02:16 PM

European fighter jets are also expensive!

1. Eurofighter Typhoon cost $101 million per unit
2. Dassault Rafale cost $90.5 million per unit
3. JAS Gripen cost $61 million per unit

* All excluding export tax, training, supply, maintenance, and operating cost

Expensive indeed. Perhaps Italian, East European, Russia, Brazil and even China and India as alternatives?

jpdm

November 11th, 2010, 02:16 PM

gmaer

November 11th, 2010, 05:59 PM

If this is the case the super hornet or older f18s would be the more likely outcome due to certain political considerations, the su 30 could be interesting if equipped with western avionics and missiles .

No need to patronize western avionics and missiles...

India exercised its Su-30MKIs against the Royal Air Force's Tornado ADVs in October 2006. This was the first large-scale bilateral aerial exercise with any foreign air force during which the IAF used its Su-30MKIs extensively. This exercise was also the first in 43 years with the RAF. During the exercise, RAF's Air Chief Marshall, Glenn Torpy, was given permission by the IAF to fly the MKI. RAF's Air-Vice Marshall, Christopher Harper, praised the MKI's dogfight ability, calling it "absolutely masterful and unbeatable".

In July 2007, the Indian Air Force fielded the MKI during the Indra-Dhanush exercise with Royal Air Force's Eurofighter Typhoon. This was the first time that the two jets had taken part in such a exercise. The IAF did not allow their pilots to use the radar of the MKIs during the exercise so as to protect the highly-classified N011M Bars. During the exercise, the RAF pilots candidly admitted that the Su-30MKI displayed maneuvering superior to that of the Typhoon.

An earlier variant of the Su-30MKI, the MK, took part in war games with the United States Air Force (USAF) during Cope-India 04. The results have been widely publicized, with the Indians winning "90% of the mock combat missions" against the American force's F-15C.

Not really relevant BAE was also involved in the Gripen the UK and US both has more experience than India or Russia .

Was the US involved in the development of the JAS Gripen? Sweden chose to develop the Gripen rather than purchase a variant of the F-16, F/A-18A/B, or the "F-5S" version of the Northrop F-20 Tigershark.

Expensive indeed. Perhaps Italian, East European, Russia, Brazil and even China and India as alternatives?

Italy is one of the co-developers/producers of the Eurofighter Typhoon. What fighter jets does Brazil and Eastern Europe has to offer? It will be difficult to acquire war machines from China especially that the Philippines may use it against them (Spratly Islands). Russian fighter jets are indeed cheap while India manufactures the Su30MKi.

gmaer

November 11th, 2010, 06:07 PM

siguro.....develop na lang tayo ng sariling atin....recruit natin mga aswang sa siquijor....:lol:

Psychological Warfare? If China is spying on us from the air then let them see...

http://www.xerxy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/inflatable_military_trucks.jpg
^^ inflatable missile trucks - position them in Palawan pointing to Chinese positions

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11511886

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/howaboutthat/7563546/Russias-inflatable-decoy-weapons-and-military-hardware-in-pictures.html

http://en.rian.ru/photolents/20100831/160395421.html

http://cakeheadlovesevil.wordpress.com/2009/11/01/fake-weapons/

http://en.rian.ru/images/16039/53/160395350.jpg
^^ inflatable fighter jet - position them in the Kalayaan islands air strip

gmaer

November 11th, 2010, 11:50 PM

Date Released: 03 Nov 2010

Captured Documents confirm Extra Judicial Killings ordered by CPP (http://www.army.mil.ph/press_release/2010/031110.htm)

Division Public Affairs Office, Camp Peralta, Jamindan, Capiz - Based on the revelations of former and captured Communist front secretaries in Region and confirmed by documents surrendered by a Communist front Secretary in Negros, the Communist Party of the Philippines has ordered its armed wing, the New People's Army, to execute even their former mass supporters and leaders who have now sided with the military.

Two weeks ago, Danilo Escropolo Badayos, Kilusang Rehiyon Sentral Bisayas Front Secretary was captured in Dumaguete City by virtue of a warrant of arrest dated January 14, 2010 and issued by Judge Ananson Jayme of the regional trial court in Bayawan City, for charges of rebellion. The documents containing these plans were seized from him upon his arrest.

The documents reveal that the CPP intends to pursue a strategy of terrorism guided by their vision of elevating the People's war to the highest level; disregarding Rules of Engagement and respect for International Humanitarian Law. The plans encouraged the use of illegal landmines and explosives in populated areas which is a clear violation of the CARHRIHL and the Geneva Convention which bans the use of landmines. The documents also outlined the systematic murder of unarmed civilians as a way to terrorize the masses into submission.

During the celebration of the CPP-NPA-NDF's 40th year, they vowed to elevate the People's War to the highest level (I-angat ang digmaang bayan sa pinakamataas na antas) by increasing the volume of their violent activities. They have now adopted a more violent strategy wherein they intend to focus more on violent tactical offensives over mass-works. This sudden shift in strategy is a response to the successful insulating factor of the Army's Civil Military Operations in insurgency affected barangays. These empowered barrios stand up against the NPA in the name of community defense and are now the targets of retaliation of the terrorists.

According to 3ID Chief Major General Vicente Porto, "The recovery of these plans provides us a correct picture of the situation in our area, especially in Negros. We now have everything we need to stay two steps ahead of the New People's Army. Our troops will continue to remain vigilant and with the information gathered off these documents, we will now bring the fight to them."

The most recent victim of the terrorist KR-N's murderous rampage was Renante Canete, a former rebel member of the RPA's Alex Boncayao Brigade. Canete was shot twice in the head yesterday afternoon by five armed men of the New People's Army near his home in barangay Lopez Jaena, Sagay City, Negros Occidental. The killers were reported to have fled towards Hacienda Erlinda, barangay Malasibog, in neighboring Escalante City. The army and the police are now conducting pursuit operations of the killers.

"We are seeing a pattern in these killings and terrorist acts consistent with the plans seized from front secretary Badayos. We now have evidence thru these documents that these systematic killing of civilians as military targets is sanctioned by the Communist Party's highest leadership and are carried out by the NPA," so says regional spokesman 1LT Mark Andrew T. Posadas of the Army’s 3rd Infantry Division.

"With this latest killing in Negros island, the civilian death toll has risen to 170% compared to last year's figures," he adds. The increase in civilian deaths perpetrated by the NPA in pursuit of this new strategy is indeed alarming. We call on all peace-loving citizens to join us in our call in seeking justice for those ruthlessly murdered at the hands of the terrorist New People's Army.

We challenge our partners in Bayan Muna and Karapatan to show to us that championing human rights includes all Filipinos regardless of their profession or political inclination. This includes condemning and fighting for the human rights of those murdered by the New People's Army terror groups. The more you keep silent on these murders, the more the public understands why you exist and who you are protecting.

We hope that these cases of extra-judicial killings in our Region will find resolution so that the families and loved ones of those who perished in this conflict will attain the peace of mind that comes with knowing what truly happened.

Arvor

November 11th, 2010, 11:53 PM

No need to patronize western avionics and missiles...

Its easy to find all sorts of articles that sing the praises of this or that fighter craft, bottom line they do have superior technology and combined experience that for the most part are acessible between NATO/western manufacturers .

Was the US involved in the development of the JAS Gripen?

Gripen uses a variant of american engines also used on the F18 .

gmaer

November 12th, 2010, 12:54 AM

Gripen uses a variant of american engines also used on the F18 .

You are referring to the NG (Next Generation) Gripen that uses the US F/A-18's General Electric F414G engine but that doesn't mean that the United States co-developed this fighter jet... SAAB must have just bought the license to buy and use this engine.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/04/25/223299/saabs-demo-aircraft-to-highlight-gripen-ng-capabilities.html

This is similar to what the IAI did when they developed the KFIR - copied the French Mirage using US-licensed parts but there was no joint venture between the 2 countries when the KFIR was produced.

Arvor

November 12th, 2010, 02:58 AM

mwg12a

November 12th, 2010, 03:14 AM

Psychological Warfare? If China is spying on us from the air then let them see...

http://en.rian.ru/images/16039/53/160395350.jpg
^^ inflatable fighter jet - position them in the Kalayaan islands air strip

What was their objectives here before? Or is it recent?

Arvor

November 12th, 2010, 03:20 AM

What was their objectives here before? Or is it recent?

Its a recent Russian gimmick, the idea is to sell lifesized inflatable mockups of real weapons because they only cost a few thousand $, thereby hoping to lure real munitions away from the real weapons or to mislead and make the enemy spend costly missiles to destroy these inflatable props that cost much less .

Arvor

November 12th, 2010, 03:30 AM

Indonesia buys Super Tucano to replace OV-10
Indonesia has decided to buy eight Super Tucano light attack aircraft to replace its OV-10 Broncos. Deliveries will start in 2012.

This is getting frustrating basically all the stuff id like to see the PAF procure are being procured by our neighbours Thailand with the Gripens and Indonesia with the Tucano ... .

gmaer

November 12th, 2010, 04:40 PM

Gripens have always used GE engines and your point was that because India an Russia were involved in some conflicts that they somehow have a technological lead over SAAB, this simply isnt the case and BAE is involved with the Gripen, BAE being a company that is now basically as American as it is British .

BAE stands for British AErospace systems. My point was Sweden has very less combat experience compared to India and Russia so SAAB products are not that battle tested.

This is getting frustrating basically all the stuff id like to see the PAF procure are being procured by our neighbours Thailand with the Gripens and Indonesia with the Tucano ... .

Because the Philippines cannot afford the JAS Gripen and if they do they will still not buy it because the Philippine Air Force is looking for a 2-engined MRF. Indonesia can donate or sell their OV-10 Broncos to the Philippines so the Philippine Air Force can upgrade them to the M version. The OV-10 is a 2-engined bomber while the Super Tucano has a single engine.

Its a recent Russian gimmick, the idea is to sell lifesized inflatable mockups of real weapons because they only cost a few thousand $, thereby hoping to lure real munitions away from the real weapons or to mislead and make the enemy spend costly missiles to destroy these inflatable props that cost much less .

It will also help a country project to other spying countries that they have such weapons even though in reality they are just dummies. This is what you call psychological warfare and this was done before by the Allied forces in World War 2 under Operation Bodyguard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bodyguard) to deceive Nazi Germany.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/howaboutthat/7563546/Russias-inflatable-decoy-weapons-and-military-hardware-in-pictures.html

^^ This will be a good alternative solution for the Philippine Air Force for now - use dummy fighter jets and park them near hangars as if they are ready for deployment.

mrboy

November 12th, 2010, 05:07 PM

Army unit equipped with highly maneuverable watercrafts (http://www.sunstar.com.ph/zamboanga/local-news/army-unit-equipped-highly-maneuverable-watercrafts)

http://www.sunstar.com.ph/sites/default/files/imagecache/default_image_cache/images/gallery/zamboanga/2010/11/11/zamboanga-zamboanga-scout-boats-2010-11-12jpg.jpgZAMBOANGA. Elite Army troops board the newly built scout boats as they maneuver Thursday along the west coast of Zamboanga City. (Bong Garcia)

THE Army has equipped one of its elite units with highly maneuverable watercrafts to strengthen the government's campaign against terrorism, kidnappings, and piracy in Mindanao.

Lt. Gen. Arturo Ortiz, chief of the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP), has activated a battalion of elite troops known as the 4th Scout Ranger Battalion during his visit Thursday afternoon in Basilan province.

Additionally, the Zamboanga City-based 4th Special Forces (Riverine) Battalion has been given an extended task to secure Basilan province as well. The battalion is equipped with highly maneuverable watercrafts consisting of 12 scout boats and one support boat

Ortiz led the inauguration and blessing Thursday morning of the 12 units of newly built 23-foot scout boats and one unit of 55-foot support boat.

Lt. Col. Lincoln Tagle, 4th Special Forces Battalion commander, said that the scout and support boats were built by local boat makers under the Philippine Army Watercraft Project "Condor" through Ortiz's initiative.

"This is in response to the requirements of the AFP and the prevailing security situation in Mindanao, particularly in Basilan province," Tagle said.

Each of the scout boats is powered by a 115-horsepower outboard motor engine with a maximum speed of 39 knots while the support boat is powered with a 240-horsepower inboard engine with a maximum speed of 24 knots.

A scout boat can carry six personnel in full combat gear and two crews on board while the support boat can be manned by a crew of five and can carry 50 personnel in full combat gear.

The project "Condor" has a total cost of P10.566 million, which is just the equivalent cost of procuring one unit of light support boat that can carry only 25 personnel, Tagle said.

Ortiz said he came up with the project out of a need to secure the waterways between this city and Basilan province as it cannot be denied that terrorism, kidnappings, and piracy are among the biggest problems in this part of the country.

Ortiz added that he came up with the project "because we are facing the enemy that is highly mobile, fluid and efficient".

According to him, one solution to the aforementioned problems is to guard the waterways.

"Deny them (enemy) the use of these waterways and we shall deny them mobility and support," he added.

Ortiz activated the 4th Scout Ranger Battalion as the Philippine Army is taking over the security duties from the 1st Marine Brigade in Basilan province (which comprises of one city and 12 municipalities).

The 4th Scout Ranger Battalion is deployed alongside troops from the Army's Special Operations Command (Socom) forces that replaced the marine troops.

All of the Army troops in Basilan are deployed under the newly created Special Operations Task Force-Basilan headed by Col. Nicanor Dolojan, the concurrent Socom deputy commander.

Dolojan said the task force was created last September to take command and control of all the Army units deployed in Basilan province.

The 1st Marine Brigade was deployed to Central Mindanao, particularly in Cotabato. (Bong Garcia)

sunstar zamboanga

Arvor

November 12th, 2010, 06:34 PM

My point was Sweden has very less combat experience compared to India and Russia so SAAB products are not that battle tested.

And that point is highly irrelevant as combat experience has little to do with technological know how and industrial capability, while combat experience could lead to improvements on military weapons one would still need to possess the knowledge and industrial capability to translate said experience, Sweden is hands down ahead of India and even Russia in alot of defense tech, alot of India's attempt to build so called "indigenuous" weapons which in reality are basically modified copies from tanks to fighters and helicopters have been rather dismal compared to Swedish projects, while India's main purveyor of military technology Russia is itself lagging the west and is now "asking the west" to help it to "modernize" .

You seem to believe that knowledge and experience are compartimentalized between western states the truth is it is not so, as they actually share alot of military and technical information, combat experience and knowledge with each other and between their corporations which enjoy quite a deep level of partnership from the drawing board to the battlefield, compared to the level of sharing between the west and the rest of the world to which they do limit transfers of technology mainly in those fields which are no longer the state of the art or the next generation of their product lineups and never giving out the full picture of their latest knowledge .

Aside from the fact that Sweden does have acess to their American and other European partners technology, knowledge and experience, Sweden also has a long "experience in producing" the state of the art in military equipment and technology itself and thats the bottom line and the "experience" that count the most when it comes to military hardware .

And in the end of the day a country need not be engaged in actual conflict itself to have the equipment it produces tested in conflict by its clients .

Btw if combat experience is an issue both Russia and Indias experience in modern combat is extremely limited compared to the west, which since the end of the cold war has sucessfully taken down entire countries with ease suffering comparitvely low casualties, while Russias latest conflict in Georgia altho have helped it score some points geopolitically also exposed its weakness in its capabilities, to this day there isnt a country outside the western alliance that is likely to be able to resist them successfully in a conventional war if it came to it .

the Philippine Air Force is looking for a 2-engined MRF

Which would more likely be F18's ... .

The OV-10 is a 2-engined bomber while the Super Tucano has a single engine.

This is irrelevant the number of engines does not make the Tucano inferior in any way, two engines are worthless if an aircraft isnt maintained adequately and thats the more important issue .

This is why PAF aircrafts are dropping like flies probably losing more to equipment failures than it does to enemy actions .

gmaer

November 12th, 2010, 06:48 PM

And that point is highly irrelevant as combat experience has little to do with technological know how and industrial capability, while combat experience could lead to improvements on military weapons one would still need to possess the knowledge and industrial capability to translate said experience and India does not posess alot of technological know how in this field where Sweden is hands down ahead of India and even Russia in alot of defense tech field, alot of Indias attempt to build so called Indigenuous weapons which in reality are basically modified copies from tanks to fighters and helicopters have all been rather dismal failures compared to Swedish projects, while Indias main purveyor of military technology Russia is itself lagging the west and is now "asking the west" to help it to "modernize" .

You seem to believe that knowledge and experience are compartimentalized between western states, the truth is it is not as compartimentalized between western states as it is between the west and the rest of the world to which they do limit transfers of technology, mainly in those fields which are no longer the state of the art or the next generation of their product lineups and never the full picture of their latest knowledge .

Aside from the fact that Sweden does have acess to their American and other European partners technology, Sweden also has a long experience in building the state of the art in military equipment and technology thats the bottom line and the experience that count the most .

Btw if combat experience is an issue both Russia and Indias experience in modern combat is extremely limited compared to the west, which since the end of the cold war has sucessfully taken down entire countries with ease suffering comparitvely low casualties, while Russias latest conflict in Georgia altho have helped it score some points geopolitically it also exposed its weakness in its capabilities, to this day there isnt a country outside the western alliance that is likely to be able to resist them sucessfully in a conventional war if it came to it .

So it should be the JAS Gripen from Sweden (for the PAF) because Thailand has it? Well good luck!

Which would more likely be F18's ... .

Are you sure? The F18 is NOT the lone candidate.

This is irrelevant the number of engines does not make the Tucano inferior in any way or provide extra security, two engines are worthless if an aircraft isnt maintained adequately, and this is why the Tucano is a superior solution as the OV 10 is unlikely to see a restart of its production line which simply means an ever decreasing supply of parts for a fleet thats rapidly ageing .

That is the PAF requirement for combat aircraft. Do you know Marsh Aviation (http://www.hueybravo.net/MarshAviation.htm)? Do you know the next generation OV-10 Bronco (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/OV10092309.xml)?

Arvor

November 12th, 2010, 07:39 PM

So it should be the JAS Gripen from Sweden (for the PAF) because Thailand has it? Well good luck!

For multiple reasons in my own opinion such as reliability, cutting edge technology, running costs, and operational doctrine for its use, it is by no means my first choice .

Regarding doctrine : that the country could probably only afford between half a dozen to a dozen new jet fighter craft means that the PAF could not defend the country in the same way an air force with dozens or hundreds of aircraft can .

To this end the way the PAF's jets should defend the country would be to fight like insurgents, and to do this we would need to disperse or base our aircraft widely in often remote areas and have the ability to quickly move around to new locations .

To this end we need an aircraft that is both advanced enough technoligcally, cheap and easy to maintain and operate but also designed for this type of doctrine, the Gripen inherits Swedens doctrine being a frontline country during the cold war against the Soviets of dispersing their aircraft in remote areas, the Gripen is designed to be able to land on small country or provincial roads and to be serviced and turned around for missions by a small team of 4 conscripts, this means that we can basically designate 2 or even 3 dozen places around the country in remote areas by the side of tiny roads which could be used by our aircrafts as bases, the Gripens are small enough to be parked between 2 trees or even large sheds, this would make it harder for opponents to pinpoint the possible location of our few fighter crafts and prevent our air forces from being annihilated as badly on the ground as during ww2 .

QJQKCUjcslM
Gripen landing on a small and remote country road moves into a small clearing in the woods and is serviced by a small team and readied to fly off again, if we could afford 30+ or more advanced jet fighters then obviously this doctrine would not be as relevant .

Are you sure? The F18 is NOT the lone candidate.

Other candidates are either too expensive or would encounter political difficulties from the Phillippines most important military ally and benefactor while reducing its ability to fight in a coalition .

That is the PAF requirement for combat aircraft. Do you know Marsh Aviation? Do you know the next generation OV-10 Bronco?

Ive read of the Boeing plan to restart production years ago but its not a reality at this point .

With regards "marsh aviation" its services wouldnt be needed if the country had a new modern aircraft for the role wouldnt it ?, the Tucano can perform two roles coin and pilot training which would make it more efficient and streamline the fleets .

gmaer

November 12th, 2010, 08:25 PM

For multiple reasons in my own opinion such as reliability, cutting edge technology, running costs, and operational doctrine for its use, it is by no means my first choice .

My Su30Mki is better and cheaper than your JAS Gripen!

Other candidates are either too expensive or would encounter political difficulties from the Phillippines most important military ally and benefactor while reducing its ability to fight in a coalition

Don't you consider the F/A-18 as expensive @ $60 million?

Ive read of the Boeing plan to restart production years ago but its not a reality at this point

A prototype was already introduced which is now undergoing testing.

With regards "marsh aviation" its services wouldnt be needed if the country had a new modern aircraft for the role wouldnt it ?, the Tucano can perform two roles coin and pilot training which would make it more efficient and streamline the fleets .

Marsh Aviation was contracted by the Philippine Air Force to upgrade, maintain, and supply parts for their OV-10 Broncos plus provide technology transfer opportunities. You are referring to the B version of the Super Tucano not the A version that Indonesia ordered.

Arvor

November 12th, 2010, 08:59 PM

Don't you consider the F/A-18 as expensive @ $60 million?

Its quite cheap compared to others certainly twin engined aircraft .

My Su30Mki is better and cheaper than your JAS Gripen!

Russian planes are well known for problems regarding spare parts and and a large plane like that with two engines would cost more to maintain not to mention fuel hungry, one of the reasons the Gripen is quite successfull is exactly because it has proven to be very reliable easy and cheap to maintain compared to other modern jet fighters, also brute force doesnt make an aircraft better the Gripen is stealthier and smarter due to its modern avionics and data communication systems .

-Gripen costs less
Gripen costs much less to buy than the other competing aircraft, which means more fighters for the same money. What is more, annual operating costs are only half as high. This is because of the following:

-Major cost advantages in terms of maintenance and fuel usage thanks to the efficient single engine.
Fewer people required to maintain the aircraft, Gripen will, over life, have a substantially lower real Life Cycle Cost than its nearest single engined competitor, and is able to operate at a fraction of the cost of its twin engined competitors.

-Gripen is the same size as the F-5 Tiger, so the existing infrastructure can be used without having to make expensive changes.

-Average time between failures is longer than that of its competitors.

-Average time to repair is shorter than that of its competitors.

-Technical updates are primarily software based – so do not require as many expensive changes to hardware.

Marsh Aviation was contracted

Like i said this would not have otherwise been needed had the air force a new aircraft .

gmaer

November 12th, 2010, 10:53 PM

The PAF MRF engine requirements = 2 engines! :banana:

Its quite cheap compared to others certainly twin engined aircraft .

The Su35/34/3027, MiG29, and F15E are all modern twin engined aircraft but cheaper than the F/A-18!

Russian planes are well known for problems regarding spare parts and and a large plane like that with two engines would cost more to maintain not to mention fuel hungry, one of the reasons the Gripen is quite successfull is exactly because it has proven to be very reliable easy and cheap to maintain compared to other modern jet fighters, also brute force doesnt make an aircraft better the Gripen is stealthier and smarter due to its modern avionics and data communication systems .

How can it be fuel hungry when the Su30MKi can reach 3000km on a single fuel compared to the JAS Gripen that needs external fuel drop tanks to be able to reach that range? And where did you get the information about Russian planes being well known for problems regarding spare parts?

-Gripen costs less
Gripen costs much less to buy than the other competing aircraft, which means more fighters for the same money. What is more, annual operating costs are only half as high.
This is because of the following:

The JAS Gripen cost $61 million compared to $37 million for the Su30MKi. It is like buying 2 Su30MKi for the price of 1 JAS Gripen!

-Major cost advantages in terms of maintenance and fuel usage thanks to the efficient single engine.

The JAS Gripen needs external fuel drop tanks to achieve 3200km range and always remember... the PAF MRF engine requirement.

Fewer people required to maintain the aircraft, Gripen will, over life, have a substantially lower real Life Cycle Cost than its nearest single engined competitor, and is able to operate at a fraction of the cost of its twin engined competitors.

Do you have the figures on the cost to operate and maintain the JAS Gripen?

-Gripen is the same size as the F-5 Tiger, so the existing infrastructure can be used without having to make expensive changes.

Northrop F-5
# Length: 47 ft 4¾ in (14.45 m)
# Wingspan: 26 ft 8 in (8.13 m)
# Height: 13 ft 4½ in (4.08 m)
# Wing area: 186 ft² (17.28 m²)

JAS Gripen
# Length: 14.1 m (46 ft 3 in)
# Wingspan: 8.4 m (27 ft 7 in)
# Height: 4.5 m (14 ft 9 in)
# Wing area: 30.0 m² (323 ft²)

-Average time between failures is longer than that of its competitors.

-Average time to repair is shorter than that of its competitors.

Where's your source on this average time?

-Technical updates are primarily software based – so do not require as many expensive changes to hardware.

Same thing with the Su30!

Like i said this would not have otherwise been needed had the air force the Tucano .

The Marsh Aviation contract will allow for technology transfer that the Philippine Air Force badly needs for self-reliance. Buy the Super Tucano and you have to buy everything from the seller.

gmaer

November 13th, 2010, 02:44 AM

JAS-39 Gripen crashes after flight control system failure

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=19e_1237494829

^^Too much for the advanced modern sophisticated or whatever you call those avionics!

The Indian Su30Mki suffered only 2 accidents while the JAS Gripen had 13 accidents - lucky number eyy?

Arvor

November 13th, 2010, 04:58 AM

The Su35/34/3027, MiG29, and F15E are all modern twin engined aircraft but cheaper than the F/A-18!

Your comparisons have a pattern of being arbitrary, so now you're comparing an F15E which is a "strike" version and one that went off production a decade ago ?, the other east bloc designs ive described earlier as being part of those aircrafts that would be politically problematic for our countries relationship with our main allies .

How can it be fuel hungry when the Su30MKi can reach 3000km on a single fuel compared to the JAS Gripen that needs external fuel drop tanks to be able to reach that range?

Gee maybe the gigantic size of the plane and thus its equally gigantic fuel tank might explain that ?.

Despite this however the Spratleys the main flashpoint for conflict is well whitin the Gripens combat radius from Palawan .

And where did you get the information about Russian planes being well known for problems regarding spare parts?

From the top of my head as one example you could look up the Malaysian air forces experience with them ... .

Nov 6/09: Malaysia’s national Bernama news service reports that Malaysia may be looking to China for maintenance help with its SU-30 fleet. Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) chief Jeneral Datuk Seri Rodzali Daud was quoted as saying that:

“China had risen to become the superpower of the region and is advanced in its technology as well and our relationship with China is getting better and better…. They can help us in many areas, like for parts and maintenance of the SU-30. In fact, Malaysia is also looking into some of the Chinese military products.”

Russia’s maintenance performance, and its maintenance model of shipping parts to and from Russia rather than setting up local facilities, has created problems for several customers. If Malaysia responds by giving China and Chinese firms a significant role in servicing its SU-30MKM fleet, the Russians will have created a problem for themselves as well.

While China also operates SU-30s, they are much less advanced models, without the canard wings, thrust vectoring, or improved electronics. Chinese theft of Russian designs has made the Russians much less eager to sell them more advanced equipment, but collaboration with Malaysia on SU-30MKM maintenance could open a different door for industrial espionage. Most military sales have terms and conditions designed to prevent this sort of thing, but the key lies in management and enforcement.

Oct 28/09: Defence Minister Datuk Seri Dr Ahmad Zahid Hamidi says that Malaysia’s MiG-29Ns will be phased out early, due to their high maintenance costs. The ministry intends to immediately reduce its fleet to 10 MiG-29Ns for airspace defence (something that may simply ratify existing operational numbers), which would decline further to 6 in 2010. The jets will be phased out at the end of 2010. From The Malaysia Star:

“With this, the Government would save RM260mil [about $76.1 million] a year in maintenance costs and the sum could be used to maintain other aircraft in the Royal Malaysian Air Force inventory…. [Zahid said that] Malaysia bought the [18] MiG[-29Ns] at a relatively low price but later, the RMAF had to contend with higher expenses in spare part replacement and maintenence work…. Each MiG also needed to undergo preventive and restoration work which cost RM10mil and RM7mil [$2-3 million] for engine overhaul every year after it completed a flight time of between 1,000 hours and 4,000 hours, he said. Zahid said the cost of maintaining the MiGs was also high as the jets needed to be sent to Russia for overhaul.”

Later comments indicate that the MiGs will all be sold. The SU-30MKMs will take the MiGs’ place initially, and with Malaysia’s F/A-18Ds aging in place, a competition may be in the works for a new set of lighter interceptors if Malaysia’s recovery continues. Zahid mentioned the possibility of buying from America (likely the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet, which was offered in the SU-30MKM competition), Britain (Eurofighter), France (Rafale), or Sweden (JAS-39 Gripen). Malaysia’s neighbors in Australia will soon induct F/A-18F Super Hornets into service, and Thailand has begun receiving JAS-39C/D Gripens. Russia appears to have been pointedly excluded from that list, and buying more SU-30MKMs does not seem to be an active option at this time.

Do you have the figures on the cost to operate and maintain the JAS Gripen?

The usually quoted costs by its operators are between 2000 and 2500$/hr, and usually only require 1/3rd of ground support crews compared to other aircraft according to the SAAF .

The JAS Gripen cost $61 million compared to $37 million for the Su30MKi. It is like buying 2 Su30MKi for the price of 1 JAS Gripen!

Sorry i dont know how you came to that conclusion but its not at all like buying 2 aircraft for one as for 2 Gripens you could get only 3 SU30's ... .

Too much for the advanced modern sophisticated or whatever you call those avionics!

The Indian Su30Mki suffered only 2 accidents while the JAS Gripen had 13 accidents - lucky number eyy?

Like i said arbitrary arguments takings things out of context, the Gripen has been in service for some time and the incidents were mainly caused by human related error rather than equipment failure, the SU30"MKI" suffered those 2 crashes in the same year due to equipment failure and it is absurd to compare a subtype which means nothing as the SU30 or flanker family including the su27 as a whole suffered more crashes .

------

At this point in time given the countries military infrastructure its gdp and finances the Gripen represents the best jet fighter solution, in say 15-20 years time when the size of the economy would have hopefully increased along with the defence budgets and infrastructure the country could then afford a new fleet of larger more sophisticated and expensive aircraft .

Like i said the Gripen is not my first choice and these are just my opinion but there's more to chosing an aircraft than its "looks" and "size" .

Simple Dude

November 13th, 2010, 03:03 PM

^^ @Gmaer: Su-30mki is insane,... really cool hehe i think its a lot better than the F/A-18,... hehe sana ito nalang 1st batch of fighters natin sa 2012,... kahit 30-60 units lang, ok na for initial acquisition pero if pwedeng mas marami pa edi the better,... :okay:

but it would be better if we combine d Grippen and su-30mki nalang, kasi there are capabilities din ng Jas-39 na wala sa su-30mki,... like the emergency landing capabilities ng grippen,... hehe so let the Jas-39 be a patrol nalang mainly and some short distance role or pwede ring bomber and anyway it is mainly for dogfights din and the main fighter is the Su-30mki thats if talagang mabagsik na yung kaaway since its an all-weather-aircraft,...

kasi if ako yung pipili,... i would choose the dassault Rafale,... :D

Arvor

November 13th, 2010, 05:40 PM

The problem is we dont have alot of money at the moment so we can only purchase a few jets but also after purchasing them our defence budget is too small to properly maintain a large fighter force and their pilots in a satisfactory level of proficiency and readiness or availability .

Russian aircraft are indeed cheaper to procure initially that means that when you buy them they are cheaper outright, but the problem with Russian planes especially if were talking about a large two engined plane is the running and maintenance cost which are significantly higher than what our military budgets and infrastructure can sustain, and the well known problems with regards parts etc would we really do as Malaysia and force ourselevs to Kow Tow to the Chinese for spare parts ?, wed be lucky if the Chinese do not ask for the entire Spratleys and Palawan itself in exchange for that type of support which defeats the entire purpose of our need for fighter craft which will mainly be to guard against Chinese agression .

It is no use to be able to buy even 30 SU30's if after one year they would all be stuck sitting on the ground because of high maintenance cost, and because we don't have parts or can't afford to fill up the gigantic fuel tanks of those big two engined gas guzzlers, and our pilots fly only a few hours per year instead of hundreds of hours required to maintain a high level of proficiency .

I would chose the Rafale aswell if we had the money for it but in reality at this time we dont, so its important to take our current realities into account aswell it does not mean that we would operate small fighters like the Gripen forever, doctrine and equipment can change over time depending on these other parameters like funding and industrial capability or military infrastructure etc .

Simple Dude

November 13th, 2010, 06:32 PM

waraywaray architect

November 13th, 2010, 07:13 PM

^^ yeah, kinda true,...but ok, we just buy at least 15 of these aircrafts,... and guys, c'mon... why some of you keeps on saying that we really cannot afford to buy an aircraft?? :lol: marami pang mga bansa Diyos ko yung mas mahirap pa sa atin, na mas malakas yung depensa nila,... just like Pakistan and Vietnem,... even Vietnam also has 4 of these Su-30 and a lot more Russian made aircrafts,... :sly:

I think the problem is with the Philippine Congress who doesn't want to fund the acquisition of these needed aircrafts? The Philippines can afford it, just give the PAF the money. But instead, Tongressmen diverts these funds and just want to steal money from the people to fund their mansions and mistresses and their bridge to nowhere projects. I also know for a fact that big time Chinese businessmen in the country doesn't pay their taxes honestly and the government is loosing millions if not billions annually from these uncollected taxes. I've heard about this modernization since the 1990's and until now we're still talking about it? This is insane.

I also think that we need to acquire these aircrafts from the US, not Russia, or China or any known countries that doesn't have a good relationship with the US. These countries know very well that the Philippines is a US ally. We don't want our aircrafts to be hijacked by not supplying spare parts in case of conflict.

Arvor

November 13th, 2010, 08:33 PM

and guys, c'mon... why some of you keeps on saying that we really cannot afford to buy an aircraft??

Yeah basically what waray wrote, if we really want it we could put the money togheter to buy aircrafts its just that politics gets in the way to the point where our country basically only spends 1% of GDP on defence, the country does have other pressing social problems but defence could use some investments too .

kalbongdad

November 14th, 2010, 01:15 AM

Yeah basically what waray wrote, if we really want it we could put the money togheter to buy aircrafts its just that politics gets in the way to the point where our country basically only spends 1% of GDP on defence, the country does have other pressing social problems but defence could use some investments too .

agree.....politics and lack of political will....dahil kung gugustuhin may paraan kung ayaw may dahilan....

Linguine

November 14th, 2010, 12:47 PM

New Special Forces unit in Zamboanga gets new boats
Sunday, 14 November 2010 11:19 Bong Garcia Jr. / Correspondent

http://www.businessmirror.com.ph/images/stories/daily_images/2010/November2010/11152010/nation01.jpg

ZAMBOANGA CITY—The Army has equipped one of its elite units with highly maneuverable watercraft to strengthen the government’s campaign against bandits, kidnappers and pirates in Mindanao particularly on the waterways of this city and Basilan province.

At the same time, the Army commander, Lt. Gen. Arturo Ortiz, activated the 4th Special Forces (Riverine) Battalion during his visit on Thursday afternoon in Basilan.

Equipped with 12 highly maneuverable scout boats and one support boat, the 4th Special Forces (Riverine) Battalion, though based in this city was given the task to secure Basilan province, too.

Ortiz led the launching of the newly built 23-foot scout boats and the 55-foot support boat.

Lt. Col. Lincoln Tagle, 4th Special Forces (Riverine) Battalion commander, disclosed the scout and support boats were built by local boatmakers under the Army’s Project Condor through the initiative of Ortiz.

“This is in response to the requirements of the Armed Forces in addressing the security situation in Mindanao, particularly in Basilan province,” Tagle said.

Each of the scout boats is powered by a 115-horsepower outboard motor which has a maximum speed of 39 knots, while the support boat is powered with 240-horse power inboard motor that has a maximum speed of 24 knots.

A scout boat can carry six combat-ready soldiers and two crewmen, while the support boat can carry 50 personnel in full combat gear and is manned by five crew members.

Project Condor cost P10.566 million, the equivalent of procuring one light support boat that can carry only 25 personnel, Tagle said.

Ortiz said he came up with the project since there is a need to secure the waterways between this city and Basilan.

Ortiz added that he came up with the project “because we are facing an enemy that is highly mobile, fluid and efficient.”

He said that one solution in dealing with the problems on banditry, kidnapping and piracy is to guard the waterways.

“Deny them [enemy] the use of these waterways and we shall deny them of mobility and support,” he added.

Ortiz activated the 4th Scout Ranger Battalion as the Army took over security duties from the 1st Marine Brigade in Basilan, that has one city and 12 towns.

The 4th Scout Ranger Battalion is deployed alongside with the troops from the Army’s Special Operations Command (Socom) who replaced the Marines.

All of the Army troops deployed in Basilan were placed under the newly created Special Operations Task Force-Basilan headed by Col. Nicanor Dolojan, the concurrent Socom deputy commander.

Dolojan said the task force was created in September to take command and control of all the Army units deployed in Basilan province.

The 1st Marine Brigade was deployed to Central Mindanao particularly in Cotabato.

The complete pull out of the 1st Marine Brigade is set to be completed within this month, Dolojan said.

In Photo: Troops from the Army’s 4th Special Forces (Riverine) Battalion train in their highly maneuverable watercraft at the western coast of Zamboanga City. (Bong Garcia Jr.)

http://www.businessmirror.com.ph/home/nation/3693-new-special-forces-unit-in-zamboanga-gets-new-boats

kalbongdad

November 14th, 2010, 02:42 PM

well i think tama itong kanilang strategy.....but still kailangan pa rin ng mga mpacs na highly mobile at lagyan lang ng missile lauchers...

gaLj

November 14th, 2010, 03:38 PM

well i think tama itong kanilang strategy.....but still kailangan pa rin ng mga mpacs na highly mobile at lagyan lang ng missile lauchers...

Don't worry this is just an interim solution :cheers:

Arvor

November 14th, 2010, 04:11 PM

kalbongdad

November 15th, 2010, 12:18 AM

well meron na tayong mga mpacs kaso wala nman decent missile armaments...yun na lang sana medyo....kampanti ka na...kung ang dedepensa han mo ay mga isla naman magkakalapit.....

GodIsNotGreat

November 15th, 2010, 03:51 AM

I’m no military guy, and so I’d like some enlightenment on these new fastcrafts/their support ship, their methods and armaments.

They look small; it seems to me they can easily be targeted and sank with the firepower that’s available to the enemy.

What are their capabilities against similar fastcrafts of the Abu Sayyaf? Gamit pa ba ng Abu Sayyaf yung kumpit, or have they got improved sea-going vessels?

Arvor

November 15th, 2010, 04:54 AM

Selected 2009 defence budgets for the South East Asia region

Country-2009 Budget-% GDP

Indonesia $3.5 billion-0.63%
Malaysia $4 billion-1.00%
Philippines $1.16 billion-0.70%
Singapore $8.23 billion-5.00%
Thailand $5.13 billion-2.00%
Vietnam $2.80 billion-3.00%
Australia $24.2 billion-2.00%
China $70.3 billion-10.00%

Source: International Institue for Stratetgic Studies

el_dasik_oo1

November 15th, 2010, 10:38 AM

Interesting i did not know we had those they look similar to the "combat boat 90", i remember as a kid my grandmother would tell me stories about these fast "Kumpit" boats back in the day and she seemed quite awed by them, i know the military used them aswell .

I’m no military guy, and so I’d like some enlightenment on these new fastcrafts/their support ship, their methods and armaments.

They look small; it seems to me they can easily be targeted and sank with the firepower that’s available to the enemy.

What are their capabilities against similar fastcrafts of the Abu Sayyaf? Gamit pa ba ng Abu Sayyaf yung kumpit, or have they got improved sea-going vessels?

I forgot which newspaper I read it but these boats were made by Samal, Badjao and Tausug boatmakers.

kalbongdad

November 16th, 2010, 12:26 AM

I forgot which newspaper I read it but these boats were made by Samal, Badjao and Tausug boatmakers.

go to the military forum.....dami yan pati mga pics.......mga procurement yan sa panahon ni little evil gloria courtesy of sec. gonzales and gibo teodoro....pa...mas lalo kang matutuwa sa MPACs.....search philippine navy MPACs...ganda video dyan...:)

el_dasik_oo1

November 17th, 2010, 04:51 AM

^Will search.. Member ako dun sa PDFF tapos lurker sa Timawa Forum. Hindi naman ako masyado nagpopost dun, nakikibalita lang ako sa mga bago and future procurements ng AFP.

Yeah, I already saw the MPACs! Great machines! :D Natatawa lang ako sa nakita kong thread comparing the MPACs vs the Scout Boats. It's like comparing a Ferrari vs a Kia Pride.

Sana tuloy tuloy na talaga itong paggawa or pagkuha ng mga sarili nating gawang mga produkto. :D

Sana kung kuha pa ulit ang Navy ng additional MPACs.. Eto sana:

http://www.dockstavarvet.se/Images/Products/Combat_patrol/combat_patrol_01.jpg

kalbongdad

November 17th, 2010, 01:45 PM

Linguine

November 18th, 2010, 04:21 PM

Military reshuffle affects three area commands
Thursday, 18 November 2010 20:04 Zaff Solmerin / Correspondent

THE Armed Forces will implement on Friday a major revamp that will affect three unified area commands, two in Mindanao and one in Luzon.

On Thursday the military spokesman and Civil Relations Service commander, Brig. Gen. Jose Mabanta Jr., said the three commands affected by the new movement of commanders are the National Capital Region Command (NCRCom), Eastern Mindanao Command (Eastmincom) and Western Mindanao Command (Wesmincom).

The Armed Forces high command designated Maj. Gen. Romeo Lutestica, a member of Philippine Military Academy (PMA) Class 1978, as acting commander of the Wesmincom on November 10 upon the mandatory retirement of Lt. Gen. Benjamin Dolorfino (PMA Class ’76).

Lutestica will now return to his original assignment as commander of the Army’s 1st Infantry “Tabak” Division.

Mabanta said President Aquino has approved the designation of the Eastmincom commander, Lt. Gen. Raymundo Ferrer (PMA Class ’77),Ω to take the helm of the Wesmincom. Mr. Aquino, likewise, approved the designation of the NCRCom chief, Maj. Gen. Arthur Tabaquero (PMA Class ’78), as new Eastmincom commander.

The transfer of Ferrer and Tabaquero is a lateral movement since the commands they will leave and their new commands call for a three-star officer.

Mabanta was silent on who will be appointed NCRCom chief but, for the meantime, the deputy commander, Brig. Gen. Romeo Fajardo, will be the acting commander.

Earlier, reports said the NCRCom will soon cease to be a unified command with the plan of the Department of National Defense (DND) to downgrade it to an “Armed Forces-wide support unit” with the revision of the implementing rules of Republic Act 9188, the law that created the command in 2003.

If the plan will push through, the command will be relegated to a two-star position, wherein a one-star general is qualified to assume as commander.

“Defense and the Armed Forces top brass want a member of PMA Class ’79 as NCRCom chief,” a source said. Fajardo is a member of PMA Class ’79.

On Wednesday Marine Col. Alexander Balutan (PMA Class ’83) assumed as commander of the 1st Marine Brigade now based in Central Mindanao. The brigade was pulled out from Basilan recently after less than three years of battling the Abu Sayyaf Group and lawless armed groups.

Commo. Orwen Cortez (PMA Class ’79) also recently assumed command of the Naval Forces Western Mindanao, the biggest command in the Navy.

Apparently, PMA Class ’79 is now the “ruling class” because of their perceived closeness with Defense Secretary Voltaire Gazmin, a former Army chief, who has been accused of meddling into the promotion system. Gazmin, however, repeatedly denied the accusation.

The issue of alleged favoritism cropped up after defense and military officials hastily promoted Lt. Gen. Gaudencio Pangilinan (PMA Class ’79) as Northern Luzon Command chief, where he got his third star.

Pangilinan, who was the Army comptroller when Gazmin was the Army commander, was never assigned as division commander, a very important step in the career path of senior officers before they are designated as unified area commanders.

http://www.businessmirror.com.ph/home/nation/3910-military-reshuffle-affects-three-area-commands

gmaer

November 18th, 2010, 09:53 PM

Simple Dude

November 19th, 2010, 02:58 AM

waraywaray architect

November 19th, 2010, 03:12 AM

^^ No,... look at their GDP and national income,... the Quality of life is better here in the Philippines and Philippines has a better economy than these countries,... :cheers2:

1.Philippines
$324.692 billion
per capita:$3,520

2.Vietnam
$256.584 billion
Per capita: $2,942

3.Pakistan
$451.972 billion
per capita:$2,713

The reason Pakistan is well armed is because of rival India, and Vietnam doesn't want to be overtaken by its fellow communist China. These countries are compeled to arm themselves and will fight back if provoked. I think the Philippine politicians will only take action if a foreign country like China attacks the country. These people are real fools.

Simple Dude

November 19th, 2010, 03:20 AM

^^ @waraywaray architect: Yes, exactly hehehe :D
just like after the WW2, Philippines used to be Booming in terms of Technology and Economy or next to Japan,... even our Military that time was kinda advanced (the very 1st S.E. Asian nation to have supersonic fighters) but as time goes on,... i really dont know why a great Nation like the Philippines should fall,... i think its all because of corruption... tsaka parang ginagawa na rin nilang negosyo yung digmaan sa mga panahon na'to... :ohno: :ohno:

we never learn :tongue3:

Simple Dude

November 19th, 2010, 03:26 AM

^^ and i wont deny that Vietnam is more advanced than the Philippines in terms of Agriculture,.... and for me, parang yun din ang balak gawin ni Erap dati,... yung project niyang "Angat Pinoy" which is also good,... :okay:

gmaer

November 19th, 2010, 03:57 PM

^^ No,... look at their GDP and national income,... the Quality of life is better here in the Philippines and Philippines has a better economy than these countries,... Let's just say that we are the most corrupt country in Asia,... :cheers2:

1.Philippines
$324.692 billion
per capita:$3,520

2.Vietnam
$256.584 billion
Per capita: $2,942

3.Pakistan
$451.972 billion
per capita:$2,713

Where did you get those figures? It would be nice if you can post the link to your source. Pakistan has its own oil industry while the Philippines buys rice from Vietnam so who has the better economy? The Philippines doesn't have its own oil industry and why does the Philippines have to regularly import rice from Vietnam?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Asian_and_Pacific_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

Rank Country 2009 GDP
15 Pakistan 166,515
16 Philippines 160,991

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Asian_and_Pacific_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

Rank Country 2008 GDP
11 Pakistan $427,300
13 Philippines $317,500

Deus Ex

November 19th, 2010, 05:17 PM

The Philippines is more advanced. Period. Wala nga silang ******** MRT, LRT, skyway...etc.****** ***.
Pessimists.

Simple Dude

November 19th, 2010, 05:27 PM

Where did you get those figures? It would be nice if you can post the link to your source. Pakistan has its own oil industry while the Philippines buys rice from Vietnam so who has the better economy? The Philippines doesn't have its own oil industry and should not be buying rice from Vietnam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Asian_and_Pacific_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

Rank Country 2009 GDP
15 Pakistan 166,515
16 Philippines 160,991

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Asian_and_Pacific_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

Rank Country 2008 GDP
11 Pakistan $427,300
13 Philippines $317,500

^^Pare,... yung source ko Wikipedia rin, check mo country by country kasi nasa gilid yung nun yung official na information tsaka di nabubura ng basta basta where as yung info. mo na by GDP, gawa lang yan ng isang ordinaryong myembro kasi you can just edit it anytime you want,...

ok, lets make it this way,... in terms of agriculture, mas advanced talaga yung Vietnam kaya dun tayo bumibili ng pagkain sa kanila,... PERO in terms of infrastructures and Quality of life mas LAMANG tayo sa kanila,... isa pang source ko,... may Viet ako na kaibigan and may kilala akong nakapunta na rin dun bilang tourist,... tama si Deus Ex, walang mga ganyan sa kanila,... but anyway, my point is sana,... as a Filipino, and if we really love the country,... lets all help building the Filipino Nation and WE SHALL RISE AGAIN,... sa awa ng diyos di tayo gaano ka behind, and we better hurry up,... :cheers1:

gmaer

November 19th, 2010, 05:31 PM

The Philippines is more advanced. Period. Wala nga silang ******** MRT, LRT, skyway...etc.****** ***.
Pessimists.

Really? :bash:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_Pakistan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_Vietnam

Our PNR sucks compared to these countries!

gmaer

November 19th, 2010, 05:33 PM

^^Pare,... yung source ko Wikipedia rin, check mo country by country kasi nasa gilid yung nun yung official na information tsaka di nabubura ng basta basta where as yung info. mo na by GDP, gawa lang yan ng isang ordinaryong myembro kasi you can just edit it anytime you want,...

ok, lets make it this way,... in terms of agriculture, mas advanced talaga yung Vietnam kaya dun tayo bumibili ng pagkain sa kanila,... PERO in terms of infrastructures and Quality of life mas LAMANG tayo sa kanila,... isa pang source ko,... may Viet ako na kaibigan and may kilala akong nakapunta na rin dun bilang tourist,... tama si Deus Ex, walang mga ganyan sa kanila,... but anyway, my point is sana,... as a Filipino, and if we really love the country,... lets all help building the Filipino Nation and WE SHALL RISE AGAIN,... sa awa ng diyos di tayo gaano ka behind, and we better hurry up,... :cheers1:

You're beginning to sound like April Boy... BE REAL! :bash:

mrboy

November 19th, 2010, 05:50 PM

^^Sir,are the rumors true that Southern Command (Southcom) will be back again or rename to Mindanao Command?

gmaer

November 19th, 2010, 05:56 PM

^^Sir,are the rumors true that Southern Command (Southcom) will be back again or rename to Mindanao Command?

AFP to merge two Mindanao commands (http://asiancorrespondent.com/ReadArticle/afp-to-merge-two-mindanao-commands.htm)
Nov. 12 2010 - 04:25 pm By Ben O. Tesiorna, Correspondent.

DAVAO CITY – The Armed Forces of the Philippines is allegedly planning to merge the two military commands in Mindanao – the Eastern Mindanao Command and the Western Mindanao Command, into just one command to be called the Southern Command.

Though under one commander, the Southern Command will still have two sub-commands. The former WestMinCom will reportedly be transferred to Cagayan de Oro City while the former EastMinCom will still have Davao City as its base.

The new unified command will also have Davao City as its main headquarters. The WestMinCom is presently headed by Lt. Gen. Ben Dolorfino while EastMinCom is headed by Lt. Gen. Raymundo Ferrer.

Military officials who requested anonymity for having no authority to talk about the matter said that what remains to be resolved now is who would head the unified command.

The officers who are high-ranking said that the AFP hierarchy must however ensure that whoever would be chosen to head the unified command would be someone who has the trust and confidence of majority of the AFP members and not by just a few commanders. BOT

Deus Ex

November 19th, 2010, 05:58 PM

PNR?
**** that!
At least we have ******* trains!
Do they have even one elevated road/train system? Nope!

Deus Ex

November 19th, 2010, 05:59 PM

Do they have one skyline that resembles the ******* and ******* skyline in Metro Manila(muntinlupa)?
Nope!
Pessimists...

mrboy

November 19th, 2010, 06:00 PM

AFP to merge two Mindanao commands (http://asiancorrespondent.com/ReadArticle/afp-to-merge-two-mindanao-commands.htm)
Nov. 12 2010 - 04:25 pm By Ben O. Tesiorna, Correspondent.

^^ So if the plans will pursue Southern Command will be based in Davao City? What is the possible thing that will happen with the Headquarters in Zamboanga City?

Simple Dude

November 19th, 2010, 06:04 PM

Really? :bash:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_Pakistan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_Vietnam

Our PNR sucks compared to these countries!

^^ hehe i think your out of date,... anyway, we have better PNR than that hehe punta ka dun sa PNR thread natin hehe i compare mo yung sakanila,... :lol:

anyway, i think most countries has a Rail ways,... its just that Vietnam dont have LRT,MRT and Skyways,...

Simple Dude

November 19th, 2010, 06:09 PM

You're beginning to sound like April Boy... BE REAL! :bash:

^^ No,... im just telling you what i know,... take it easy, i'll make this clear,... im not feeling superior here... my friend, what make you say that im being like APRIL BOY?? :lol: it is my rights to say what i know, and in fact... member din ako ng Wikipedia but i dont really post much in there,... i just dont agree that Vietnem and Pakistan is richer than the Philippines coz i have something to prove it... and also i am defending my beloved country,... peace :nocrook:

gmaer

November 19th, 2010, 06:46 PM

I almost forgot this debate...

Your comparisons have a pattern of being arbitrary, so now you're comparing an F15E which is a "strike" version and one that went off production a decade ago ?, the other east bloc designs ive described earlier as being part of those aircrafts that would be politically problematic for our countries relationship with our main allies .

Went off production a decade ago? See http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/f15/

In April 2001, Boeing received a contract for a further ten F-15E aircraft for the USAF, bringing the total to 227. The air force initially planned to purchase 392 F-15s.

Gee maybe the gigantic size of the plane and thus its equally gigantic fuel tank might explain that ?.

Correct! And the space used for external fuel drop tanks can be used for additional weapons.

Despite this however the Spratleys the main flashpoint for conflict is well whitin the Gripens combat radius from Palawan .

How about Metro Manila, Scarborough Shoal, Batanes Islands, and the ARMM?

From the top of my head as one example you could look up the Malaysian air forces experience with them ... .

I am fighting for the Su-30 MKi which is used only by India and Russia NOT by Malaysia.

The usually quoted costs by its operators are between 2000 and 2500$/hr, and usually only require 1/3rd of ground support crews compared to other aircraft according to the SAAF .

It is higher than those figures.

Sorry i dont know how you came to that conclusion but its not at all like buying 2 aircraft for one as for 2 Gripens you could get only 3 SU30's ... .

I did a price comparison where the Su30 MKi is almost half the price of the JAS Gripen.

Like i said arbitrary arguments takings things out of context, the Gripen has been in service for some time and the incidents were mainly caused by human related error rather than equipment failure, the SU30"MKI" suffered those 2 crashes in the same year due to equipment failure and it is absurd to compare a subtype which means nothing as the SU30 or flanker family including the su27 as a whole suffered more crashes .

-
On 1 June 2005, a JAS 39A Gripen (serial no 39-184) from Airwing F 17 Kallinge, when acting as a target in a dogfight exercise, apparently ceased to obey commands from the pilot, LtCol Axel Nilsson. After attempting to regain control while the aircraft slowly descended, the pilot ejected from the aircraft and landed safely by parachute.

On 17 November 2008, the landing gear of a Swedish Air Force Gripen collapsed after landing at F 17 Kallinge. The pilot was on a routine mission, when he received an error indication. He decided to abort the mission and return to the airfield. When taxiing, he felt that the brakes did not work properly, so he decided to stop as soon as possible. As the engine was switched off, the front landing gear suddenly collapsed, and the aircraft fell on its nose.

On 31 May 2010, a Gripen from F 21 Luleå came loose and sped away during an engine test. The aircraft gained considerable speed before rolling off the hard surface and onto nearby soft terrain, where it finally flipped over.

At this point in time given the countries military infrastructure its gdp and finances the Gripen represents the best jet fighter solution, in say 15-20 years time when the size of the economy would have hopefully increased along with the defence budgets and infrastructure the country could then afford a new fleet of larger more sophisticated and expensive aircraft .

How many countries have concluded that it is the best jet fighter solution? Thailand will still use their F-5s and F-16s when they bought the JAS Gripen so that means that it is not their best jet fighter solution.

Like i said the Gripen is not my first choice and these are just my opinion but there's more to chosing an aircraft than its "looks" and "size" .

Who's choosing an aircraft by "looks" and "size"? I chose the Su-30 MKi based on performance and price.

gmaer

November 19th, 2010, 07:22 PM

It is no use to be able to buy even 30 SU30's if after one year they would all be stuck sitting on the ground because of high maintenance cost, and because we don't have parts or can't afford to fill up the gigantic fuel tanks of those big two engined gas guzzlers, and our pilots fly only a few hours per year instead of hundreds of hours required to maintain a high level of proficiency .

Why 30 when 12 is enough? The Su30Mki does not have high maintenance cost. The gigantic fuel tanks are fuel efficient which is why they can reach 3000km @ Mach 1.9 and the Philippine Air Force requires twin engines for more endurance and better survivability.

The Su-30MKI is more advanced than the basic Su-30MK, the Chinese Su-30MKK, and the Malaysian Su-30MKM .The aircraft features state of the art avionics developed by Russia, India and Israel which includes display, navigation, targeting and electronic warfare systems. Other key avionics used in the aircraft were sourced from France and South Africa.

gmaer

November 19th, 2010, 07:27 PM

^^ So if the plans will pursue Southern Command will be based in Davao City? What is the possible thing that will happen with the Headquarters in Zamboanga City?

That is where the controversial 500 US Military Advisers are currently based so it might be converted as a multi-national training facility to put them away from direct combat because they used to be stationed in Basilan and Sulu.

gmaer

November 19th, 2010, 07:32 PM

Do they have one skyline that resembles the ******* and ******* skyline in Metro Manila(muntinlupa)?
Nope!
Pessimists...

What can the skylines do to defend Metro Manila? They can just be bombed by the enemy to add more destruction to the city. Remember the Kobe (Japan) Earthquake...

http://www.maelor-humanities.org.uk/GCSEhum/Resources/PP-photos/pp-KeyIss-1/kobe-earthquake.jpg
^^ left picture showed the additional damage caused by elevated roadways

Deus Ex

November 19th, 2010, 07:52 PM

Defend? The question is :
What can 6 "new" diesel powered submarines do to destroy our fighting spirit?
******* pessimists...

Deus Ex

November 19th, 2010, 07:53 PM

****
No diesel powered submarine can wipe out the entire skyway, all 3 existing elevated rail lines, or our improving PNR.
Pero, kawawa nga lang ang ating airforce. Pathetic. That's the only threat that could diminish the underrated glory of our infrastructure.

gmaer

November 19th, 2010, 08:33 PM

Defend? The question is :
What can 6 "new" diesel powered submarines do to destroy our fighting spirit?
******* pessimists...

****
No diesel powered submarine can wipe out the entire skyway, all 3 existing elevated rail lines, or our improving PNR.
Pero, kawawa nga lang ang ating airforce. Pathetic. That's the only threat that could diminish the underrated glory of our infrastructure.

Who are you calling pessimists? ******* Ignorance has no place here! :bash:

A diesel powered submarine can be armed with submarine-launched surface-to-surface guided missiles which makes it more stealthy deadly because the Philippine Navy doesn't have ASW capabilities!

http://www.subart.net/los_angeles_class.jpg

The BGM-109 Tomahawk is a long-range, all-weather, subsonic cruise missile. Introduced by General Dynamics in the 1970s, it was designed as a medium- to long-range, low-altitude missile that could be launched from a submerged submarine.

Deus Ex

November 19th, 2010, 08:37 PM

Deus Ex

November 19th, 2010, 08:39 PM

gmaer

November 19th, 2010, 08:39 PM

What ignorance?
It's called being realistic. Akala mo napaka advance na ng Pakistan and Vietnam...wake up!
America has our asses covered, regardless. If the Philippines Government didn't allocate these funds to create the MRT link, the improvement of the PNR, the skyway, we would ******* have more than pathetic diesel powered, "antiquated" submarines.

The Philippines doesn't have any diesel powered "antiquated" submarines at all so what are you talking about? Pakistan and Vietnam has the more advanced weapons than the Philippines.

Deus Ex

November 19th, 2010, 08:42 PM

The Philippines doesn't have any diesel powered "antiquated" submarines at all so what are you talking about? Pakistan and Vietnam has the more advanced weapons than the Philippines.

No pictures, no proof.
What I was saying is: If we didn't allocate these funds to improve our ADVANCED infrastructure(in comparison to Vietnam and Pakistan), we would have more than pathetic diesel powered submarine.

Deus Ex

November 19th, 2010, 08:43 PM

Besides, if our country wasn't an archepelagic nation, we would certainly have had a better PNR.
That's just my opinion. I'm done here.

gmaer

November 19th, 2010, 08:44 PM

The only reliable source of information regarding these issues would be someone living in these countries.
You don't, so your information cannot be trusted. If I remember, there is a filipino here living in Hanoi. His information can be trusted.

Google Is Your Friend... Don't you trust books? I had been into a multi-national military arms dealer as an outsourced web programmer for them to advertise and update their products and services online so I know what I am talking about.

Deus Ex

November 19th, 2010, 08:46 PM

You mean "small" arms dealer, right?

Kintoy

November 19th, 2010, 08:48 PM

you should ask xxxrianxxx because he lives in Vietnam...

gmaer

November 19th, 2010, 08:57 PM

No pictures, no proof.
What I was saying is: If we didn't allocate these funds to improve our ADVANCED infrastructure(in comparison to Vietnam and Pakistan), we would have more than pathetic diesel powered submarine.

What proof are you looking for? Advanced weapons from Pakistan and Vietnam?

Pakistan has the JF-17 Thunder (which they co-developed/manufactured with China) and the F-16 Falcon (which they got in return for allowing US Forces to operate on their soil in their fight against the Taliban in Afghanistan)

http://topnews.in/files/jf-17.jpg

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/11/11/business/11military.600.jpg

Vietnam has the Su-30MK2V and the Su-27SK/UB

http://i3.6.cn/cvbnm/40/ba/8c/d865cf3ac7121619f48dbd958c72b2e7.jpg

More proof to come!

Deus Ex

November 19th, 2010, 09:05 PM

********
Kayanga sinabi ko "kawawa ang airforce natin". Didn't you bother to read the earlier posts?
If you wanna believe what you believe, let it be. No one can deny that America has our asses covered.

gmaer

November 19th, 2010, 09:07 PM

You mean "small" arms dealer, right?

Nope... it is a MULTI-NATIONAL company so how can it be small arms?

gmaer

November 19th, 2010, 09:21 PM

Deus Ex

November 19th, 2010, 09:50 PM

That is if the VFA is still in effect! :banana:
Vietnam and Pakistan has no experience in archepelagic warfare. Let them bring their puny yet "advance" airforce.

Deus Ex

November 19th, 2010, 09:53 PM

Nope... it is a MULTI-NATIONAL company so how can it be small arms?
How do you expect me to engage in this talk? I am just a kid trying to make you see the superiority of our infra compared to Pakistan & Vietnam. Yes, their airforce is deadly, no doubt, but we have the infrastructure. We have the expressways...the NLEX, SLEX,.
They have diesel submarine, but what experience do they have utilizing these submarines?

gmaer

November 19th, 2010, 10:53 PM

How do you expect me to engage in this talk? I am just a kid trying to make you see the superiority of our infra compared to Pakistan & Vietnam. Yes, their airforce is deadly, no doubt, but we have the infrastructure. We have the expressways...the NLEX, SLEX,.
They have diesel submarine, but what experience do they have utilizing these submarines?

The recent sinking of a modern South Korean warship by a torpedo fired from a midget submarine is a strong evidence on how stealthy and deadly submarines can still be and the fact that the Philippine Navy does not have ASW capabilities means that any navy whether they have actual combat experience using submarines or not as long as they possess a diesel powered submarine can easily destroy any of the current PN warships without notice.

FYI: Pakistan has experience in submarine warfare in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 December 9, the Indian Navy suffered its biggest wartime loss when the Pakistani submarine PNS Hangor sank the frigate INS Khukri in the Arabian Sea resulting in a loss of 18 officers and 176 sailors.

Source: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/History/1971War/44-Attacks-On-Karachi.html

Simple Dude

November 20th, 2010, 12:55 AM

^^ guys hehe uhm i think you have to understand the situation,... Vietnam is a communist country so they may focus more on military,... Pakistan has a giant rival,... India... so militarily speaking mas advanced technology nila pero ECONOMICAL speaking mas advanced economy natin kesa sa kanila and also the Infrastructures,... kumbaga, they spend more on weapons coz they have to and we spend more on infrastructures and also unfortunately wasting it with corruption,.... it doesnt mean na kung may oil yung bansa mayaman na sila,... :cheers1:

Kintoy

November 20th, 2010, 01:02 AM

Pakistan imports 319,500 barrels of oil per day

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2175.html

Kintoy

November 20th, 2010, 01:08 AM

Pakistan oil production: 59,000 barrels per day

Philippine oil production: 25,000 barrels per day

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2173.html

waraywaray architect

November 20th, 2010, 04:35 AM

Pakistan oil production: 59,000 barrels per day

Philippine oil production: 25,000 barrels per day

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2173.html

you cannot compare the Philippines to Pakistan by just the oil. Pakistan doesn't have tourism comparable to the Philippines. Also, Pakistan is still vulnerable... without the US sneak attacks on the Taliban they would probably have been overtaken by these Islamic militants which is not even a country but just an organization with extreme Islamic ideologies.

waraywaray architect

November 20th, 2010, 04:50 AM

That is if the VFA is still in effect! :banana:

VFA is just a formality so that the US will not appear to be doing illegal against the Philippines. Si Miriam lang ang against dyan. With the VFA or not, they will not just give up on the Philippines that easy just look at how they had improved so many airports and other infrastructures around the country. They did that so the Philippines can handle US aircrafts and rapid deployment in terms of emergency or war in the region. That's where their "investment" will be paid off.

Linguine

November 20th, 2010, 05:21 AM

AFP opposes proposed dismantling of Cafgus

Saturday, 20 November 2010 00:00

BY WILLIAM B. DEPASUPIL REPORTER

THE Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) on Friday expressed strong objections to proposals to dismantle paramilitary groups amid accusations that they were the root-cause of warlordism in the country. Armed Forces spokesman Brig. Gen. Jose Mabanta Jr. said that there was no truth to the allegations that militia groups, like the Civilian Armed Forces Geographical Unit (Cafgu), have been involved in human rights abuses and acted as private armies to some influential political clans.

He stressed that while there were incidents involving militia groups in human rights abuses, these were “isolated cases.”

“In the past, the Cafgu performed credibly. These [alleged human rights abuses] are isolated cases,” the Armed Forces spokesman said.

Mabanta explained that Cafgus played an important role in the military’s operation that “at this point it [dismantling of paramilitary groups] cannot be done.”

He added that Cafgus fill the security vacuums if ever military forces were transferred to areas where they can be best used.

The Armed Forces, he said, would not oppose the dismantling of Cafgus in areas where peace and order have been restored.

“If they attain . . . peace and order we will need to start disbanding [the] Cafgus. [They] are not permanent. They exist because [there is a] need [for them],” Mabanta said.

He also pointed out that maintaining the Cafgus, who only receive P90 a day, entail minimal expenses.

Mabanta said that there are some 50,000 Cafgus in various parts of the country and they would be disbanded once the military is able to liberate areas from the influence of enemies of the state.

“[Once] we attain improvement we can start deactivating the Cafgus,” he said.

According to Mabanta, the plan now is to place the Cafgus under the special forces so as to strengthen their morale and welfare.

He said that one of the major concerns of the Armed Forces regarding these units is how to increase their take-home pay.

“Certainly for a better morale and welfare program you need to increase pay and allowances, but it really depends on the authorities,” Mabanta added.

Earlier, the militant group Bagong Alyansang Makabayan (Bayan) called on President Benigno Aquino 3rd to order the dismantling of all paramilitary units following reports by Human Rights Watch that they have been involved in human rights abuses.

“A mere executive order from President Aquino is all it takes to dismantle the paramiltary units. This can greatly reduce the kind of abuses that various human rights groups have monitored over the years. The
Maguindanao massacre should be the last of its kind. No longer should paramilitary units be allowed to become private armies,” Bayan Secretary General Renato Reyes said in a statement.

http://www.manilatimes.net/index.php/news/nation/32574-afp-opposes-proposed-dismantling-of-cafgus

Arvor

November 20th, 2010, 05:22 AM

In April 2001, Boeing received a contract for a further ten F-15E aircraft for the USAF, bringing the total to 227. The air force initially planned to purchase 392 F-15s.

Irrelevant semantics ... .

----

And the space used for external fuel drop tanks can be used for additional weapons.

How about Metro Manila, Scarborough Shoal, Batanes Islands, and the ARMM?

All those areas are well whitin the Gripens combat range without external fuel tanks, and if it does carry external tanks it would only truelly require one which extends the range considerably while two would not yield any real benefit, still leaving sufficient numbers of hard points .

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I am fighting for the Su-30 MKi which is used only by India and Russia NOT by Malaysia.

We are not India or Russia and it is you that requested examples of bad experiences which i promptly gave, it does not matter if you narrow it down to a sub type because India too has had nasty surprises ranging from sudden price hikes by the Russians to problems with spare parts that grounded a substantial number of their fleet .

----

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arvor
The usually quoted costs by its operators are between 2000 and 2500$/hr, and usually only require 1/3rd of ground support crews compared to other aircraft according to the SAAF .

It is higher than those figures.

So whats the figure according to you ?, and how much for the SU 30 ?.

the Russian Su-35 and MiG-29 aircraft, whose operational expenses are triple that of the western aircraft. Croatia does not need twin-engine aircraft not only because of its small territory and its defence strategy, but also because they are simply too expensive. The price of that kind of fully equipped aircraft in a package including pilot training, technical staff and reserve engine reaches from 110 to 120 million dollars.

In consideration then are concrete and available data on the price of flying per hour. According to the available official data, the cost of an hour of airtime on a Swedish Gripen is 2,500 dollars, while an airborne hour on the F-16 Block 52 comes to 3,700 dollars. If we take into consideration that Croatian plots might spend 50 hours in the air a year, still well below the NATO standard (150 airborne hours), the cost of flying one Croatian pilot in a Gripen would come to 125 thousand dollars a year, and 185 thousand for the F-16. Annual costs and the difference in operational costs increase if we calculate the annual airborne time of all Croatian pilots of some 600 hours.

In that case the total price of using the Gripen comes to 1.5 million US dollars a year, while the estimated price for an F-16 is 2.2 million dollars a year. For a 25-year service life one would have to earmark 37.5 million US dollars for the Gripen and 55 million dollars for the F-16. It should be noted that minimal airtime has been used in this calculation, as the costs would triple based on the NATO-standard flight regime of 150 hours. The difference in annual operational costs between the two aircraft arise from the fact that the Gripen consumes less fuel, is easier to repair, needs a smaller maintenance staff of 60 people a year, unlike the F-16 which requires the attention of 230 people, that number relevant for a 150 hour annual airborne time. The Gripen also needs less ground maintenance equipment and a longer period between breakdowns. What can be considered an advantage for the F-16 is a greater mission range, as the Gripen has a maximum range of 3000 km, and the F-16 of 3900 km.
http://www.nacional.hr/en/clanak/34674/f-16-vs-gripen-croatian-air-force-to-spend-800-million-for-new-wings

The six aircraft had to fly a full three hours to reach the site of the Nashi camp, put on a one-hour show and then return to their base at Lipetsk. VVS officials would not provide any cost figures for the show they put on, but one of Russia's most well-known test pilots, Magomed Tolboyev, told Obshaya Gazeta in Moscow that it would cost at least $216,000. This is based on a figure of $12,000 per flight hour to operate the Su-27, which consumes 5 to 6 tons of aviation fuel per hour. Aviation fuel costs about 20,000 roubles ($790) per ton .
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/013/938alwas.asp

----

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arvor
Sorry i dont know how you came to that conclusion but its not at all like buying 2 aircraft for one as for 2 Gripens you could get only 3 SU30's ... .

I did a price comparison where the Su30 MKi is almost half the price of the JAS Gripen.

The JAS Gripen cost $61 million compared to $37 million for the Su30MKi. It is like buying 2 Su30MKi for the price of 1 JAS Gripen

This ( above ) is what you wrote and no matter how you try to wiggle out of it thats a huge and very expensive margin of error if the country actually had to trust your calculating skills !, on top of this you are disingenuously pointing out figures for basic models without the necessary improvements of avionics and equipment .

As of March 2010, sources in the Indian Defense Ministry announced that a contract for 42 more Su-30MKI was in the final phases. In June 2010, it was reported that the Cabinet Committee on Security had cleared the 15,000 crore (US$ 3.41 billion) deal and that the 42 aircraft would be in service by 2018. By August 2010 the number of aircraft had shrunk to 40 and the cost increased to $4.3 billion or $102 million each, comparable in cost to the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, but lacking in features such as AESA radar or stealth.

----

How many countries have concluded that it is the best jet fighter solution? Thailand will still use their F-5s and F-16s when they bought the JAS Gripen so that means that it is not their best jet fighter solution.

Because you believe that a country would automatically just throw away aircraft because they bought a new type ?, btw the only country doing that in the region is Malaysia with their Russian planes ... .

----

Who's choosing an aircraft by "looks" and "size"? I chose the Su-30 MKi based on performance and price.

The SU 30's running costs are beyond this countries means even if its initial procurement costs are low, overall the Gripen provides the best solution given our infrastructure and budgets and the type of operational doctrine which we would be forced to employ, a doctrine where we would need a capability of operating with our natural allies a stealthy and small signature, robust designed for austere bases, being relatively cheap yet advanced aircraft like the Gripen is .

----

The Phillippine economy as a whole is for now better than that of Pakistan or Vietnam hands down, even if it does suffer inefficiencies due to outdated farming models not because Vietnam employs superior technology, while both Pakistan and Vietnam are using colonial era railway networks hardly an accomplishment, finally both countries have larger defence budgets including as a % of GDP while Pakistan recieves alot of American military aid .

Kintoy

November 20th, 2010, 10:25 AM

you cannot compare the Philippines to Pakistan by just the oil. Pakistan doesn't have tourism comparable to the Philippines. Also, Pakistan is still vulnerable... without the US sneak attacks on the Taliban they would probably have been overtaken by these Islamic militants which is not even a country but just an organization with extreme Islamic ideologies.

actually I cited that statistic as a rejoidner on the argument about Pakistan and oil. Like the Philippines, Pakistan is largely dependent on imported oil, even if it still has some domestic production

Arvor

November 20th, 2010, 04:39 PM

Some countries that have oil do not necessarily have the refining capacity to process all of it or to process different types of oil, so some of the raw material is first sent to overseas refineries before it is re imported as refined products for all sorts of things ranging from plastic bags to clothes and petrol for cars or chemicals .

The Phillipines for example has less refining capacity than Singapore but probably have barely enough to cover our requirements, so in the end we have to import some more to fully cover domestic demand .

kalbongdad

November 21st, 2010, 01:44 AM

Linguine

November 21st, 2010, 04:12 PM

Aquino to focus on ‘professionalizing’ paramilitary forces
Sunday, 21 November 2010 20:30 Mia Gonzalez

PRESIDENT Aquino said on Thursday he would work on “professionalizing” paramilitary forces to insulate them from partisan politics and thus make them less likely to be used as private armies.

The President made the statement when asked to comment on reports that he plans to revive the commission against private armies created by his predecessor.

“We are reviewing how all the so-called paramilitary forces are being supervised. We will professionalize them. The Cafgu [Civilian Armed Forces Geographical Unit] will have to go to Special Forces, insulated from partisan political activity. I will ask for their operating guidelines for review,” he said.

Mr. Aquino said the Armed Forces and the National Police are concentrating on disbanding the identified private armies and making sure that no new ones are formed.

Mia Gonzalez

http://www.businessmirror.com.ph/home/nation/4009-aquino-to-focus-on-professionalizing-paramilitary-forces

Arvor

November 21st, 2010, 05:25 PM

Its about time they do more about private armies and militias, if they really need auxiliaries they should instead create a conscript auxiliary service a "home guard" branch parallel to the military for every major island group .

mwg12a

November 21st, 2010, 10:46 PM

Exactly! That eliminates creation of warlord armies just like the case of Ampatuan.

Alinghi

November 22nd, 2010, 03:06 AM

sana gawing professional militia nalang ang mga CAFGU's instead of abolishing it.. parang National Guard ng USA at bigyan ng control ang mga LGU's over them para ma monitor at ma manage ng mabuti.. in this way, their compensation and benefits will be improved kasi national at local govt. ang magtutulungan.. this will also make them useful especially in times of natural disasters.. we should indoctrinate them with democratic principles para hindi maging abusado

Linguine

November 22nd, 2010, 04:19 AM

http://www.manilatimes.net/images/stories/rokstories/2010/1122/masacre.jpg

Military tanks patrol past the house of former Gov. Datu Andal Ampatuan Sr. of Maguindanao in Shariff Aguak on Sunday. AFP PHOTO

http://www.manilatimes.net/index.php/component/content/article/42-rokstories/32787-motorcycle-bomb-blast-wounds-two-civilians-in-maguindanao-

gmaer

November 22nd, 2010, 05:21 PM

Irrelevant semantics ... .

You just got surfed! :banana:

We are not India or Russia and it is you that requested examples of bad experiences which i promptly gave, it does not matter if you narrow it down to a sub type because India too has had nasty surprises ranging from sudden price hikes by the Russians to problems with spare parts that grounded a substantial number of their fleet .

We are not Sweden nor Thailand! :bash:

So whats the figure according to you ?, and how much for the SU 30 ?.

This ( above ) is what you wrote and no matter how you try to wiggle out of it thats a huge and very expensive margin of error if the country actually had to trust your calculating skills !, on top of this you are disingenuously pointing out figures for basic models without the necessary improvements of avionics and equipment .

Can't you read? The Su30MKi cost $36 million while the JAS Gripen cost $61 million.

Because you believe that a country would automatically just throw away aircraft because they bought a new type ?, btw the only country doing that in the region is Malaysia with their Russian planes ... .

Are you sure? The Su30-MKM and MiG-29 are Malaysia's primary MRFs because the F/A-18s are intended for maritime duties.

The SU 30's running costs are beyond this countries means even if its initial procurement costs are low, overall the Gripen provides the best solution given our infrastructure and budgets and the type of operational doctrine which we would be forced to employ, a doctrine where we would need a capability of operating with our natural allies a stealthy and small signature, robust designed for austere bases, being relatively cheap yet advanced aircraft like the Gripen is .

Good Luck with your single-engined JAS Gripen! :ohno:

Arvor

November 22nd, 2010, 08:16 PM

We are not Sweden nor Thailand!

True we have fewer ressources and can afford fewer planes than Sweden or Thailand .

----

Can't you read? The Su30MKi cost $36 million while the JAS Gripen cost $61 million.

That "was" what it cost, you should first read your previous comment ... .

The JAS Gripen cost $61 million compared to $37 million for the Su30MKi. It is like buying 2 Su30MKi for the price of 1 JAS Gripen

And then you should read this .

August 2010 the number of aircraft had shrunk to 40 and the cost increased to $4.3 billion or $102 million each, comparable in cost to the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, but lacking in features such as AESA radar or stealth.

In any case it still isnt "like" 2 for one .

----

Are you sure? The Su30-MKM and MiG-29 are Malaysia's primary MRFs because the F/A-18s are intended for maritime duties.

Malaysia is getting rid of its mig 29's due to cost and spare parts issues .

----

Good Luck with your single-engined JAS Gripen!

Well the Gripen would be up in the air more often since it requires as little as ten minutes to turn around ( great hot refueling capability ) and since it can last longer than SU 30's between serious faults, and especially since the fuel costs would be substantially cheaper than your gas guzzler, the Gripen can also land and take off from significantly shorter runways or roads near the battlezone .

The country would be better off with an aircraft and pilots that can actually spend more time flying and patrolling our territories, than one thats grounded most of the time only used occasionally for displays during the national day .

The country does not need "show planes" just to show off some useless "cobra maneouver", it needs planes that actually work most of the time and aircraft that fit the countries ressources and infrastructure in other words its ability to maintain and keep them flying, and more importantly an aircraft that can provide our pilots with sufficient flying time to keep them proficient in their task, it is the overall reliability and quality that decides more than any other victory or defeat in the air .

Gripen with its reduced RCS or radar cross section and its datalink aknowledged to be quite good and equipped with Meteor and Iris T missiles would be quite formidable and a match for any aircraft any of our neighbours can field, their Russian planes and their gigantic red hot engines and RCS signatures would be nothing but giant bullzeyes for those missiles in short they would never know what hit them .

j8KOPzLbdF0
Meteor missile

gmaer

November 22nd, 2010, 09:32 PM

Malaysia is getting rid of its mig 29's due to cost and spare parts issues .

Duh who? I'm talking about the Su-30 not the MiG-29! And what will replace the MiG-29 anyway? It's the Su-30! hahah

Well the Gripen would be up in the air more often since it requires as little as ten minutes to turn around ( great hot refueling capability ) and since it can last longer than SU 30's between serious faults, and especially since the fuel costs would be substantially cheaper than your gas guzzler, the Gripen can also land and take off from significantly shorter runways or roads near the battlezone .

Where the hell did you get the information that the Su-30 is a gas guzzler? And who would risk landing/taking off a multi-million dollar fighter jet near the battle zone here in the Philippines? The Philippine Army doesn't even engage their brand new APCs in direct fire but for troop transport and fire support only because of their known weakness against enemy fire.

The country would be better off with an aircraft and pilots that can actually spend more time flying and patrolling our territories, than one thats grounded most of the time only used occasionally for displays during the national day .

The Su-30 will have more flying hours than your JAS Gripen on a single refuel.

The country does not need "show planes" just to show off some useless "cobra maneouver", it needs planes that actually work most of the time and aircraft that fit the countries ressources and infrastructure in other words its ability to maintain and keep them flying, and more importantly an aircraft that can provide our pilots with sufficient flying time to keep them proficient in their task, it is the overall reliability and quality that decides more than any other victory or defeat in the air .

The cobra maneuver helps a lot in dog fights and is the future of air warfare.

Gripen with its reduced RCS or radar cross section and its datalink aknowledged to be quite good and equipped with Meteor and Iris T missiles would be quite formidable and a match for any aircraft any of our neighbours can field, their Russian planes and their gigantic red hot engines and RCS signatures would be nothing but giant bullzeyes for those missiles in short they would never know what hit them .

The Su-30 has a highly-classified radar and anti-radar system unlike the JAS Gripen that is already well known to many countries. Have you seen an Su-30 on video? I have seen so much of your JAS Gripen videos but it is like the same old F-16!

---

All across defense forums, the Su-30 has the upper hand vs. YOUR JAS Gripen...

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/air-force-aviation/jas-39-vs-su-30-mki-1922/

http://forum.pakistanidefence.com/lofiversion/index.php/t18489.html

Want more? :banana:

Arvor

November 22nd, 2010, 10:01 PM

I'm talking about the Su-30 not the MiG-29!

It seems that you dont know what your talking about literally, but perhaps if you review your prior comments you might just get it ... .

----

The Philippine Army doesn't even engage their brand new APCs in direct fire but for troop transport and fire support only because of their known weakness against enemy fire.

Well theres no point in an air force acquiring jets if they are afraid to take "risks" and this reinforces my picture of what you want these SU30's to do basically they are to be used for display .

----

All across defense forums, the Su-30 has the upper hand vs. YOUR JAS Gripen...
Want more?

No thanks im not interested in the SU30 winning in your opinion battles on "forums" from 2003 and 2004 but this seems to be the whole basis of your argument .

Btw a comment on one of your own links says :

Stop opening these "who is better, who is the best, who is more advanced" thread. Even if you want to compare at least gave out some specifications. and even with every spec listed you wouldn't know who will have the upper hand in combat unless they go toe to toe with each other.

gmaer basically wants SU30's because they are "big" and because they might win a few obsolete convos in forums, If this is the extent of what the Phillippine air force will do then its no use buying any jets at all it would just be an absolute waste of money, id prefer to see a real air force capable of actually fighting in the air and not one solely for display and combats on subjective forums ... .

And as that commenter said give out specifications and facts if you want to compare .

Arvor

November 22nd, 2010, 11:08 PM

The cobra maneuver helps a lot in dog fights and is the future of air warfare.

The future ? more like the the past !, the SU30 cant out maneouver or outrun a Meteor missile it wont come anywhere close to a "dogfight" and in the slight chance that does occur then the Iris T would be sufficient to deal with it .

The Su-30 will have more flying hours than your JAS Gripen on a single refuel.Where the hell did you get the information that the Su-30 is a gas guzzler?

Are you now saying its not a gas guzzler ?, as for more flying hours the range difference is minimal and since your plane will have to fly from further away it would negate this tiny advantage and would require alot more maintenance and refuelling time on the ground .

----

This is where doctrine comes into play your SU30's are maintenance intensive and require large facilities and runways, its base in Luzon means that it would have to travel so far before reaching a battlezone negating any range advantage, and by the time it returns to base in Luzon it would find that its gaemer over for the SU30 as its already been bombed by the Chinese who are well whitin range of Basa and Clark .

The Gripen on the other hand does not need long runways or extensive ground maintenance teams, its landing distance is shorter than an F16 which means that it can land anywhere a small stretch of 400 meters of road can be found, the Gripen and its team can therefor be highly mobile moving around the countryside of Luzon and Palawan, when it does land its efficient hot engine refuelling capability means that it takes at most 10 minutes to refuel and since its engines are more reliable and the aircraft easier to maintain than the SU30 it will not have to spend as much time on the ground .

The Gripen is adapted not just to our budget but also to our current level of military capabilities and infrastructure while the SU30 requires a more sophisticated support structure, the fact that we can only afford a few aircrafts for the moment and the fact that we lack alot of the other systems required to defend our airspace from radars to sam systems etc, means that we need to have aircraft that can both fight low intensity skirmishes at the borders but also survive a first strike and all out war scenario, in other words we need an aircraft that can also live and fight like an insurgent if their home bases are bombed .

Then theres political reality :

What if the Americans say no can we live without their aid at this time given our low budgets and are we willing to alienate them ? .

Since the Chinese are our most likely adversaries followed by Malaysia which after experiencing spare parts problems with the Russians for their mig29 and su30 fleet are now going to work closer with the Chinese for spare parts, how does this impact our capacity to maintain an SU30 fleet ?, as ive mentioned before if we were to ask the Chinese for help in maintaining our fighter fleet it would then render said fleet obsolete as the Chinese would put enough demands on the table that would make defending our territory pointless .

2ndly who are our natural allies and compatibility issues ?, Russia ?, China ?, Malaysia ?, would it be wise to purchase aircraft at the mercy of countries that are the least likely to be our friends in actual conflict ?, instead of having equipment that are compatible with our more natural allies like the US, South Korea, Japan, Thailand or Singapore and Australia etc ? .

Our international flashpoints :

Spratley, Northern Luzon islands, Chinese invasion of Taiwan, Sabah

----

In any case in the end of the day the SU30 probably has less chance than the Gripen which itself is a longshot and the most likely choice would be an F18 .

kalbongdad

November 23rd, 2010, 01:43 AM

buy those darn fighter jets already....quit studying them....it has been done for the last decade or so......buy them already.....:bash: biglang nainip :lol:

hokage

November 23rd, 2010, 03:22 AM

It takes a lot more than airplanes to have a reliable air defense. A single engine cessna could penetrate the airspace and create havoc on the "dogfighting supersonic" fighters parked on the tarmac. We don't have a radar umbrella to detect intruders. So with a limited budget, prioritize if the enemy is internal or external. I don't think even Korea, Japan or Singapore will have a chance on a full scale invasion by China which is unlikely to happen anyway, with US, Russia around. So focus on the internal enemy, which is the way wars are fought nowadays. The leftists communists and Islamic insurgencies that is financed abroad to deestabilize the government and create a fertile ground for a revolution is the clear and present danger for the country. A good counter intelligence and secure border is the key to the country's security.

kalbongdad

November 23rd, 2010, 06:29 AM

kalbongdad

November 23rd, 2010, 02:48 PM

oi naggigyera na sa paligid.....kung kelan huli na ang lahat saka magkukumahog maghanap ng air assets.....mga bopol talaga itong mga ito.....

Simple Dude

November 23rd, 2010, 03:33 PM

gmaer

November 23rd, 2010, 03:56 PM

Well theres no point in an air force acquiring jets if they are afraid to take "risks" and this reinforces my picture of what you want these SU30's to do basically they are to be used for display .

It will be a WASTE of money to risk a multi-million dollar fighter jet by landing/taking off near the battle zone. They are better off in air bases.

gmaer basically wants SU30's because they are "big" and because they might win a few obsolete convos in forums, If this is the extent of what the Phillippine air force will do then its no use buying any jets at all it would just be an absolute waste of money, id prefer to see a real air force capable of actually fighting in the air and not one solely for display and combats on subjective forums ... .

And as that commenter said give out specifications and facts if you want to compare .

I chose the Su-30MKi because of its performance and cost NOT because it is big!

---

Breaking news:

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/rids/20101123/i/r3633845624.jpg

Smoke rises from South Korean Yeonpyeong Island after being hit by dozens of artillery shells fired by North Korea November 23, 2010. Several South Korean civilians and soldiers were wounded and many others were being evacuated to bunkers on Tuesday, a Seoul television reported. The island is located near the western maritime border between the two Koreas, 11 km (7 miles) from the North and about 115 km (71 miles) northwest of Seoul. REUTERS/Yonhap

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/rids/20101123/i/r2610382932.jpg

Arvor

November 23rd, 2010, 05:43 PM

It will be a WASTE of money to risk a multi-million dollar fighter jet by landing/taking off near the battle zone. They are better off in air bases.

You mean the very few well known locations of bases that have inadequate warning and defense systems and well whitin reach of our most likely adversaries aircraft and missiles ?, your talking as if the average PAF AB can defend itself even against a squadron of hostile kites .

Meanwhile Chinese aircraft do not have sufficient range when it comes to southern Palawan or the countryside of northern Luzon, and the tactic of dispersal would keep any adversary guessing as to where our aircraft might be removing the risk of attack on the ground, while keeping our aircraft close to the front where they can kick ass but it seems youd prefer they stay in some base where they can fight on forums ... .

There is no use in buying expensive aircraft if they are just to be used for displays, trainer jets would be sufficient for that purpose, risk is inherent in flying and "war" nato and the western alliance or their allies elsewhere like S.Korea etc does not shrink from a fight or from basing themselves close to frontlines, id like to see our air forces have the same level of proficiency and agression instilled in them with a doctrine adapted to our budgets and infrastructure .

I chose the Su-30MKi because of its performance and cost NOT because it is big!

That's clearly not the case as the latest Indian figures show that an MKI will cost close to 100 million and without aesa or the advantage of a small rcs while your figures are for a basic SU30, furthermore in terms of overall lifetime cost your aircraft is more expensive and less reliable .

So when it comes to the balance of cost/quality/capability the Gripen clearly wins .

Not to mention politics just take the latest N.Korean and S.Korean clash do you really believe that if this turns into an all out war that wed be on the side of China the country where we would be forced to take our spare parts from ? .

gmaer

November 23rd, 2010, 05:47 PM

But thats clearly not the case the latest Indian figures show that an MKI will cost close to 100 million and without aesa or the advantage of a small rcs, furthermore in terms of overall lifetime cost your aircraft is more expensive and less reliable .

So when it comes to the balance of cost/quality/capability the Gripen clearly wins .

Source please for the $100 million cost per unit of the Su-30MKi? Balance of cost/quality/capability the Gripen is NOT the winner!

Arvor

November 23rd, 2010, 06:06 PM

Source please for the $100 million cost per unit of the Su-30MKi? Balance of cost/quality/capability the Gripen is NOT the winner!

Published: Tuesday, Aug 17, 2010

With an astronomical 155% increase in price in three years, the Russian Sukhoi-30 fighter aircraft seem to be going the Gorshkov way.

The deal for aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov was hammered in 2004 for $974 million (Rs4,560 crore), but it was renegotiated in 2010 at $2.3 billion (Rs10,770 crore).

After the Indian Air Force (IAF) wrote to the ministry of defence expressing concern at its depleting strength and pressing for immediate purchase of 40 Sukhois-30s under the fast-track provision, which does not warrant tendering or open competition, a deal was inked with Russia in 2007 for $1.6 billion (Rs7,490 crore), that is $40 million (Rs190 crore) a piece.

Latest figures tabled in parliament, however, show that another deal for 40 + 2 Sukhois (2 are replacements for aircraft that crashed last year), to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) under licence from the Russian Federation’s Irkutsk, has been struck for $4.3 billion (Rs20,125 crore), that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece.

The latest deal will make the IAF inventory 270-strong and India the largest operator of Sukhois by 2018, when HAL is to deliver the aircraft.

But the escalation in cost cannot be justified, especially since the aircraft being manufactured by HAL do not have enhanced features, such as the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar. Defence experts, in fact, are of the view that since the assembly line is in Bangalore, where HAL is based, the latest deal should have cost less.

The deal becomes even more loss-making since American fifth-generation fighter aircraft, F-35, manufactured by Lockheed Martin are priced at $100 million (Rs470 crore) a piece. F-35, an advanced stealth fighter with features such as supercruise and AESA radar, competes with fourth-generation fighters, such as Eurofighter Typhoon and the French Rafale, in Norway and Denmark for deals.

The American F-16, again made by Lockheed Martin, is competing in India for IAF’s fighter jet deal with Typhoon and Rafale.
IAF already has these four-plus generation fighters, which are awaiting clearance for upgrade in a separate deal involving Irkutsk and HAL.

The “deep upgrade” will include enhanced combat features, systems and avionics, which would increase the flight performance and keep the aircraft in service for a longer duration. The biggest feature of the “deep upgrade” is the inclusion of the AESA radars replacing the passive radars in IAF Sukhois.

The twin-engine heavy-weight Sukhoi entered IAF service in 2000 after clearance in 1997, but has not undergone any upgrade since.
(All currency conversions are based on current rate and are approximate)

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_aircraft-deals-with-friend-russia-costing-dear_1424437

Now you're turn will you finally give us the per hour running cost of even the basic SU30 which i gave btw .

Determining cost is not just about the initial fly away cost its about the lifetime running cost from fuel to maintenance or spare parts etc .

gmaer

November 23rd, 2010, 06:45 PM

Now you're turn will you finally give us the per hour running cost of even the basic SU30 which i gave btw .

Determining cost is not just about the initial fly away cost its about the lifetime running cost from fuel to maintenance or spare parts etc .

THAT IS TO UPGRADE THE SU-30 MKI WHICH WILL MAKE IT COST $100 MILLION!

Arvor

November 23rd, 2010, 06:58 PM

THAT IS TO UPGRADE THE SU-30 MKI WHICH WILL MAKE IT COST $100 MILLION!

This reminds me of your "supersonic" comment all over again, i suggest you read the article one more time because you seem to be having trouble understanding it ... .

IAF already has these four-plus generation fighters, which are awaiting clearance for upgrade in a separate deal involving Irkutsk and HAL.

Latest figures tabled in parliament, however, show that another deal for 40 + 2 Sukhois (2 are replacements for aircraft that crashed last year), to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) under licence from the Russian Federation’s Irkutsk, has been struck for $4.3 billion (Rs20,125 crore), that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece.

The latest deal will make the IAF inventory 270-strong and India the largest operator of Sukhois by 2018, when HAL is to deliver the aircraft.

But the escalation in cost cannot be justified, especially since the aircraft being manufactured by HAL do not have enhanced features, such as the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar. Defence experts, in fact, are of the view that since the assembly line is in Bangalore, where HAL is based, the latest deal should have cost less.

But maybe you do understand but can't aknowledge the fact presented ?, nowhere does it say anything about the cost being due to "upgrades" for the MKI since the figure was given for the license production mki, But if that was indeed the case well it again highlights my point about how disingenuous your method of counting cost is, basically wed buy a basic SU30 for 37 million then have to spend millions more to equip it with better munitions which means that the end product would cost ??? .

I think its important that we scrutinize all you're arguments "fine print" before we buy your claims because its starting to look real fishy imo, lol and we wonder why our military ends up with crappy equipment while middlemen and officers get kickbacks .

kalbongdad

November 23rd, 2010, 07:18 PM

tago na lang tayo sa ilalim ng mesa....dahil pinag aaralan pa ang kailangan nating air assets....mga isang dekada pa ulit siguro bago nila malaman kung ano ba talaga koya ang gusto nila....:lol: with the record foul ups of this admin hindi malayo na wla tayong mabili dahil lahat may nakikitang kurapsyon.....maliban lang sa grupo nila.....:lol:

Arvor

November 23rd, 2010, 07:21 PM

Kailangan lang mag handa nang kickback budget and its done ... ? .

kalbongdad

November 23rd, 2010, 07:41 PM

pinakamabilis nito maghanda na tayo maghukay ng mga lungga...na mapagtataguan natin....:lol:

gmaer

November 23rd, 2010, 08:07 PM

This reminds me of your "supersonic" comment all over again, i suggest you read the article one more time because you seem to be having trouble understanding it ... .

But maybe you do understand but can't aknowledge the fact presented ?, nowhere does it say anything about the cost being due to "upgrades" for the MKI since the figure was given for the license production mki, But if that was indeed the case well it again highlights my point about how disingenuous your method of counting cost is, basically wed buy a basic SU30 for 37 million then have to spend millions more to equip it with better munitions which means that the end product would cost ??? .

I think its important that we scrutinize all you're arguments "fine print" before we buy your claims because its starting to look real fishy imo, lol and we wonder why our military ends up with crappy equipment while middlemen and officers get kickbacks .

OK YOU WON BY I DIDN'T LOSE YET BECAUSE THE PHILIPPINE AIR FORCE HASN'T SELECTED YOUR JAS GRIPEN AND I DOUBT IT BECAUSE THE PAF REQUIRE THEIR NEXT MRF TO BE 2- ENGINED! A BITTER TRUTH FOR A HARD FOUGHT DEBATE?

Arvor

November 23rd, 2010, 08:18 PM

Well gmaer im not interested in going round and round in circles here either as you will obviously never aknowledge the real cost of the SU30, or adress any of the other issues relating to doctrine and politics associated with the purchase of such equipment .

As far as im concerned ive made my arguments as to why the Gripen should be our intermediary jet fighter for the next 15-20 years until we are able to afford bigger and more sophisticated ones, youve made your arguments for the SU30 people can review the past few pages of arguments and make up their own minds .

------

In the end as ive pointed out for now the most likely choice until we see an actual tender for fast jets is the F18 .

------

My personal choice when our economy rises to the size of Taiwan or Turkey or lets say in about 20 years would be a mix of :

http://www.defesanet.com.br/rv/le_bourget_05/imagens/rafale_c.jpg
Rafales as main multirole/fighter x54

http://www.robotechresearch.com/rpg/vehicles/EBSIS/Gripen/gripen1.jpg
Gripens as a cheap state of the art multirole/fighter to increase numbers x100

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3018/2631851912_8ce536a149.jpg?v=0
M346 as jet trainer/light strike/fighter x50

http://aviaorevue.terra.com.br/img/Fotos/2009/640x408/supertucano3_640x408.jpg
Super Tucano as Trainer/Coin x100

http://aerobaticteams.net/images/paf-blue-diamonds/paf-blue-diamonds-logo.png
Then lol ill throw in 8 SU30 for a reformed Blue Diamond display squadron so they can show off some cobra maneouvers :lol: .

gmaer

November 23rd, 2010, 09:06 PM

Well gmaer im not interested in going round and round in circles here either as you will obviously never aknowledge the real cost of the SU30, or adress any of the other issues relating to doctrine and politics associated with the purchase of such equipment .

As far as im concerned ive made my arguments as to why the Gripen should be our intermediary jet fighter for the next 15-20 years until we are able to afford bigger and more sophisticated ones, youve made your arguments for the SU30 people can review the past few pages of arguments and make up their own minds .

What do you know about PAF doctrines and politics? :ohno:

My personal choice when our economy rises to the size of Taiwan or Turkey or lets say in about 20 years would be a mix of :

http://www.defesanet.com.br/rv/le_bourget_05/imagens/rafale_c.jpg
Rafales as main multirole/fighter x54

http://www.robotechresearch.com/rpg/vehicles/EBSIS/Gripen/gripen1.jpg
Gripens as a cheap state of the art multirole/fighter to increase numbers x100

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3018/2631851912_8ce536a149.jpg?v=0
M346 as jet trainer/light strike/fighter x50

http://aviaorevue.terra.com.br/img/Fotos/2009/640x408/supertucano3_640x408.jpg
Super Tucano as Trainer/Coin x100

*sigh* day dreaming and fantasies... :banana:

http://aerobaticteams.net/images/paf-blue-diamonds/paf-blue-diamonds-logo.png
Then lol ill throw in 8 SU30 for a reformed Blue Diamond display squadron so they can show off some cobra maneouvers :lol: .

Why can't your JAS Gripen do aerobatics?

In the end as ive pointed out for now the most likely choice until we see an actual tender for fast jets is the F18 .

In June 2010 the Department of National Defense (DND) is also looking at Canada or France for the acquisition of fighter jets.

http://www.inforel.org/fotoNoticia/mirage_1.jpg

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/aircraft-pictures/assets_c/2009/02/Canadian%20Hornet-thumb-450x298.jpg

Arvor

November 23rd, 2010, 10:15 PM

gmaer

November 23rd, 2010, 11:27 PM

Lol you do know that the Mirage 2000 is a single engine design ?, so what happend to the 2 engine requirement all of a sudden ?.

The only other new French fighter craft they could be looking at is the Rafale which would cost more than the F18, that they are looking to Canada aswell however means second hand cf18 aircraft, the modernized version of which is only good until 2020 .

So like i said the F18 is the most likely result .

That's according to the only recent MRF news and it appears that the PAF will not be buying any brand new fighter jet so goodbye JAS Gripen! The American F18 will not be the likely result if they will stick with their requirements but the Canadian or CF18... and sorry to blow your bubble canopy coz it will not be the upgraded version. There's still hope though for Russian planes if they will buy brand new and base it on their primary requirements.

pi_malejana

November 23rd, 2010, 11:40 PM

pinakamabilis nito maghanda na tayo maghukay ng mga lungga...na mapagtataguan natin....:lol:

balita ko nililipat na daw ung mga howitzer natin papuntang batanes para itapat sa incoming North Korean missiles...:lol::nuts:

in case magka-giyera, magpapadala po ba uli tayo ng mga tao tulad nuong Korean War??:dunno:

:cheers:

Arvor

November 24th, 2010, 12:13 AM

There's still hope though for Russian planes if they will buy brand new and base it on their primary requirements.

Now who's dreaming ?

Btw the Canadian cf18's wont last long in PAF service but given its use of a similar engine to the Gripen it would be logical to then procure it as a replacement .

kalbongdad

November 24th, 2010, 12:19 AM

balita ko nililipat na daw ung mga howitzer natin papuntang batanes para itapat sa incoming North Korean missiles...:lol::nuts:

in case magka-giyera, magpapadala po ba uli tayo ng mga tao tulad nuong Korean War??:dunno:

:cheers:

malamang mahilig tayo makisawsaw....di ba...kahit saan may flashpoint nandon mga pinoys......sa haiti ....sa east timor...since meron tayong shared history with ROK mga sentimentalists na pinoy for sure....magpapadala yan ng tulong when push comes to shove.....

gmaer

November 24th, 2010, 12:42 AM

balita ko nililipat na daw ung mga howitzer natin papuntang batanes para itapat sa incoming North Korean missiles...:lol::nuts:

in case magka-giyera, magpapadala po ba uli tayo ng mga tao tulad nuong Korean War??:dunno:

:cheers:

Yes! A medical/dental and engineering team might be sent. My aunt is a dentist and she volunteered to be part of the dental team in the 1st gulf war in Kuwait when she was still working in Saudi Arabia. I remembered she brought home a gas mask as protection against Iraqi SCUD missiles.

gmaer

November 24th, 2010, 12:48 AM

malamang mahilig tayo makisawsaw....di ba...kahit saan may flashpoint nandon mga pinoys......sa haiti ....sa east timor...since meron tayong shared history with ROK mga sentimentalists na pinoy for sure....magpapadala yan ng tulong when push comes to shove.....

Those are peacekeeping missions because the Philippines is an active member of the UN security council... very unusual for a poor military force. They usually send in only a battalion-size of soldiers and policemen plus doctors and engineers.

gmaer

November 24th, 2010, 12:55 AM

Now who's dreaming ?

Btw the Canadian cf18's wont last long in PAF service but given its use of a similar engine to the Gripen it would be logical to then procure it as a replacement .

That is not dreaming. That is a fact that only Russia offers brand new twin-engined fighter jets that are cheaper than the cheapest brand new F/A-18. Can you name other cheap but new 2-engined fighter jets?

waraywaray architect

November 24th, 2010, 04:17 AM

Arvor

November 24th, 2010, 06:52 AM

That is not dreaming. That is a fact that only Russia offers brand new twin-engined fighter jets that are cheaper than the cheapest brand new F/A-18. Can you name other cheap but new 2-engined fighter jets?

Like i said before the fly away price for the basic model SU30 is cheap but lifetime and running costs and reliability are a different story, once those other costs are figured in that initial fly away price becomes less attractive, what was true for the arguments between the Gripen vs SU30 will hold true for the F18 vs the SU30 those issues wont go away .

Couple this with the Russians penchant for being unreliable with contracts, support and parts which other countries using their aircraft have experienced .

The Russians also having felt betrayed by Malaysia and Indonesia by defecting to the Chinese for training and parts and maintenance basically stealing "Russian bussiness" arent going to be as trusting of ASEAN nations or lenient with the Phillipines, they are likely going to be tougher with their conditions than they were with Malaysia and Indonesia so it would be harder for us to wiggle out of Russian maintenance personnel or arbitrary price hikes for parts and whatnot .

In short Russian aircraft is more trouble and costlier than its "worth" at first glance and presents alot of practical problems aswell as political ones .

mrboy

November 24th, 2010, 08:00 AM

AFP says it’s ready to help South Korea (http://globalnation.inquirer.net/news/breakingnews/view/20101124-305066/AFP-says-its-ready-to-help-South-Korea)

MANILA, Philippines -- If President Aquino orders it, the military would be ready to help South Korea confront North Korea, which provoked a shooting war on Tuesday, Armed Forces chief Gen. Ricardo David Jr. said Wednesday.

“Matters that are happening among our neighbors are concerns of the Philippine republic. But these are matters for the policy makers. As far as the Armed Forces of the Philippines is concerned, we are ready whatever will be...the decision of our policy makers,” David told reporters at a news conference in Camp Aguinaldo.

“Your Armed Forces is prepared to help any nation, particularly under the United Nations flag, to pour troops or any undertaking particularly near our shores,” he added.

During the 1950-1953 Korean War, the Philippines sent soldiers under the Philippine Expeditionary Force to Korea (PEFTOK) to help defend South Korea from an invasion by the communist North Korea.

The Philippines dispatched 7,420 Filipino soldiers to South Korea as part of the United Nations operation. A total of 112 of them died in the course of duty.

David said the country's “brave and courageous” soldiers are ready to face “whatever threat that we will be facing.”

“We will defend ourselves based on the available resources of your Armed Forces of the Philippines,” he said, adding in jest, "Kahit na yung tools natin...palakol lang pwede nating gawin (Even if our tools were only axes, we would do it).”

inquirer.net

le Reine

November 24th, 2010, 09:24 AM

^^Ano naman kayang maitutulong natin? Just wondering...

kenken94

November 24th, 2010, 09:31 AM

Manpower, medical teams.

xxxriainxxx

November 24th, 2010, 10:35 AM

Foreigner confronts anti-VFA protesters (http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/metro/view/20101124-305080/Foreigner-confronts-anti-VFA-protesters)
By Jaymee T. Gamil
Philippine Daily Inquirer
First Posted 17:21:00 11/24/2010

MANILA, Philippines -- Protesters calling for the scrapping of the Philippine-US Visiting Forces Agreement were caught off-guard when a Caucasian man angrily confronted them in front of the US Embassy along Roxas Blvd. Wednesday morning.

The foreigner, who sounded American, approached the "Scrap the VFA Movement" protesters at the tail end of their program and angrily told them, "Do you want to stop US aid to the Philippines?"

Before the group could respond, he was quickly ushered away by a Filipino woman, whom the protesters surmised to be his girlfriend or wife.

The group said they would have responded: "Our clear stand is that US aid to the Philippines is a package. It doesn't come without strings attached. Yes, it is fine with us if US aid to the Philippines is stopped," Chester Amparo, secretary general and spokesman of the Kilusan para sa Pambansang Demokrasya said in Filipino.

He said that in giving aid to the Philippines, the US was simply maneuvering to "win the hearts and minds of Filipinos" in return for business and political favors.

The VFA has made the Philippines a "launching pad" and "virtual base" of US politico-military strategies, according to a subsequent statement from the group. It also accused foreign troops of intervening in Philippine internal affairs by engaging in combat operations in Mindanao.

Wednesday saw the protesters flying paper planes, symbolic of the last plane that took off from the US Subic Naval Base in Zambales on Nov. 24, 1992, which marked its closure.

"But in the VFA, the very thing we rejected in the US Military Bases has returned," Amparo protested.

The "Scrap the VFA" movement is composed of advocacy groups Kilusan, Kaisa Ka, Wedpro, Catwap, Alliance of Progressive Labor, Partido ng Manggagawa and Makabayan.

On Tuesday, the Legislative Oversight Committee on the Visiting Forces Agreement convened in the Senate to review the VFA and its implementation.

mrboy

November 24th, 2010, 12:19 PM

^^

"Yes, it is fine with us if US aid to the Philippines is stopped," Chester Amparo, secretary general and spokesman of the Kilusan para sa Pambansang Demokrasya said in Filipino.

sige nga, kayo nga pumunta ng basilan at mamahagi ng tulong dun. :nuts:

xxxriainxxx

November 24th, 2010, 12:22 PM

mrboy

November 24th, 2010, 12:26 PM

^^ pag-iingay lng sa daan ang ginagawa niyan, DOON kaya sila sa basilan mag-ingay tutal nandun naman yung mga sundalong amerikano.. :lol:

kyril

November 24th, 2010, 12:26 PM

^^

"Yes, it is fine with us if US aid to the Philippines is stopped," Chester Amparo, secretary general and spokesman of the Kilusan para sa Pambansang Demokrasya said in Filipino.

Selfish asshole. Another meaningless and pointless protest.

xxxriainxxx

November 24th, 2010, 12:32 PM

^^ pag-iingay lng sa daan ang ginagawa niyan, DOON kaya sila sa basilan mag-ingay tutal nandun naman yung mga sundalong amerikano.. :lol:

Urong ang mga kwan nyan pag tinutukan sila ng baril ng ASG.

In fairness sa mga sundalong amerkano sa atin, pag may kalamidad, sila ang isa mga nauuna mangrescue. Gaya nung binagyo ng Frank ang bayan namin sa Aklan, nauna pa ang mga kano sa pagtulong kesa sa national govt na kinalimutan na kami.

mrboy

November 24th, 2010, 02:08 PM

^^baka sa amerikano pa sila hihingi ng tulong...

gmaer

November 24th, 2010, 03:48 PM

Like i said before the fly away price for the basic model SU30 is cheap but lifetime and running costs and reliability are a different story, once those other costs are figured in that initial fly away price becomes less attractive, what was true for the arguments between the Gripen vs SU30 will hold true for the F18 vs the SU30 those issues wont go away .

Couple this with the Russians penchant for being unreliable with contracts, support and parts which other countries using their aircraft have experienced .

The Russians also having felt betrayed by Malaysia and Indonesia by defecting to the Chinese for training and parts and maintenance basically stealing "Russian bussiness" arent going to be as trusting of ASEAN nations or lenient with the Phillipines, they are likely going to be tougher with their conditions than they were with Malaysia and Indonesia so it would be harder for us to wiggle out of Russian maintenance personnel or arbitrary price hikes for parts and whatnot .

In short Russian aircraft is more trouble and costlier than its "worth" at first glance and presents alot of practical problems aswell as political ones .

You failed to answer my question: Can you name other cheap but new 2-engined fighter jets?

gmaer

November 24th, 2010, 03:50 PM

gmaer

November 24th, 2010, 03:51 PM

^^Ano naman kayang maitutulong natin? Just wondering...

Auxiliary Forces :cheers:

gaLj

November 24th, 2010, 04:11 PM

^^
Psychological Deterrence

gmaer

November 24th, 2010, 04:52 PM

Interview: Sten Tolgfors
Minister for Defense, Sweden

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4094490&c=FEA&s=INT

Published: 17 May 2009

Q. Did Norway's selection of the F-35 Lightning II over the Gripen in November hurt relations with Sweden?

A. Norway looked for a different kind of aircraft than the Gripen. It looked for a heavier combat plane for attack operations. The Gripen is not optimized for that. The Gripen is very suitable for our needs and those of other countries who use it, and is a very capable aircraft for air-combat, air-surveillance and international operations.

The Gripen is built as a system of systems. In other words, it is based on cooperating and sharing signal intelligence with other fighters. Norway looked for a plane that could single-handedly perform operations, autonomous operations. This is not the Gripen's strength.

The JAS Gripen is a good choice--IF you're willing to buy more of them, and/or another aircraft type for heavy attack missions. Ironically it's supposed to be a "true" multirole fighter but this article shows that the JAS Gripen cannot work alone... It is not an independent fighter!

Kintoy

November 24th, 2010, 05:05 PM

the Philippines can also vote with South Korea in whatever resolutions vs NK

mrboy

November 24th, 2010, 05:07 PM

Former President Fidel Ramos was a hero in that war. :)

Nice Trivia..:)

coldfire083

November 24th, 2010, 06:29 PM

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/11/24/350140/pictures-more-surplus-uh-1s-en-route-to-the-philippines.html

PICTURES: More surplus UH-1s en route to the Philippines
By Greg Waldron

The Philippine air force will receive five used Bell UH-1 transport helicopters under a deal facilitated by the US Army Security Assistance Command (USASAC).

Acquired via the USA's Excess Defense Articles programme, the helicopters have been refurbished under a Foreign Military Sales deal. They are en-route to the Philippines aboard a US freighter, which left Jacksonville, Florida on 4 November.

http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=37151
http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=37152

"The Philippine air force purchased the renewed aircraft to assist in their continued counter-insurgency and disaster relief efforts," the USASAC says. It did not provide financial details of the deal.

http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=37153

The Philippines has flown the Huey since the 1970s, and its air force has an active fleet of 78 UH-1H/Vs, says Flightglobal's HeliCAS database.

A sprawling, multi-ethnic country, the Philippines has suffered insurgencies of varying intensity in its half century of independence. The Abu Sayaf and Moro Islamic Liberation Front are separatist groups that seek an independent Islamic republic in the southern Philippines.

The country is also prone to natural disasters such as typhoons, floods and volcanic eruptions.

gmaer

November 24th, 2010, 07:24 PM

Arvor

November 24th, 2010, 07:36 PM

You failed to answer my question: Can you name other cheap but new 2-engined fighter jets?

I repeat because you still dont seem to get the concept, the F18 can be considered cheap vs the SU30 if the cost is based on lifetime and operational cost as a whole, price also depends on politics any aircraft can be procured at a cheap price or even for free given enough rationale for it, in the end of the day it is just as possible to purchase a cheap very basic model of non Russian aircraft to compete with the basic SU30 that you are peddling, but as i have pointed out in previous posts the SU30 MKI is now apparently costing 100 million a piece without asea etc .

So if you want a name then ill simply say F18 Super Hornet .

----

The JAS Gripen is a good choice--IF you're willing to buy more of them, and/or another aircraft type for heavy attack missions. Ironically it's supposed to be a "true" multirole fighter but this article shows that the JAS Gripen cannot work alone... It is not an independent fighter!

Once again you seem to have completely misunderstood an article and im having to spell it out for you .

Q. Did Norway's selection of the F-35 Lightning II over the Gripen in November hurt relations with Sweden?

A. Norway looked for a different kind of aircraft than the Gripen. It looked for a heavier combat plane for attack operations. The Gripen is not optimized for that. The Gripen is very suitable for our needs and those of other countries who use it, and is a very capable aircraft for air-combat, air-surveillance and international operations.

The Gripen is built as a system of systems. In other words, it is based on cooperating and sharing signal intelligence with other fighters. Norway looked for a plane that could single-handedly perform operations, autonomous operations. This is not the Gripen's strength.

The Gripen as mentioned by the minister is an excellent aircraft for patrolling airspace and air to air combat exactly what we would use our planes for, while Norway was looking for an "attack" plane which is what the JSF essentially is a "bomb truck", the JSF is not a very good air superiority fighter in that role .

Norway being a small air force that cant procure multiple types has a specific role in the western alliance which is to fight in coalitions, other coalition aircraft are meant to kick down the door with air superiority fighters like the F22, EF Typhoon, Rafales or F15's etc which would then be followed up by the "bomb trucks" .

So here you failed to understand 3 things, 1) Norways role in NATO and 2) Norways role in the JSF partnership in which Norway has sunk billions of $ in return for industrial offsets while Norway also faced heavy US political preassure to remain with the now floundering JSF program, and 3) you also then failed to understand the role of the JSF .

JSF was created in the begining as a means of slowing down Europes fighter defense industry which had just come up with the Rafale, the EF Typhoon and the Gripen, the Americans wanted to secure the allegiance of the F16 Nato nations and to secure sales when they replaced those fighters which was why they tried to lockdown those countries by allowing them stakes in the program ( Netherlands, Norway, Italy ), today those countries are thinking twice when it comes to the JSF exactly because of the aircrafts failure to live up to its original selling points mainly as a cheap multirole aircraft to replace the F16 including in price, what came out was the complete contrary a very expensive maintenance hog of a plane that is only suited for "attack" or bombing roles, for many nations it would mean the end of a serious air-air capability something Norway does not truelly need, the Gripen has thus emerged as the new and natural successor to the F16 as a cheap modern reliable and efficient multirole aircraft .

You need to understand doctrine which is a mix derived from a countries politics, geography, economics and the aircraft itself, Norway being a small power without significant interest outside its immediate borders and part of Nato living in a relatively peacefull post cold war Europe can live without a great air superiority aircraft .

Other countries like Italy or the UK which are major powers with regional or global interests have a need to be able to more or less "project" power alone, they possess multiple aircraft types both having either EF Typhoons, Tornadoes, F16's etc on top of their JSF orders .

( There is considerable debate amongst other countries with regards the lack of serious competition for their next fighter fleets having chosen the JSF due to political and economic reasons, Canada, Australia, Netherlands, Denmark and even Norway, Canada of course do not need top of the line air superiority aircraft since they are part of NORAD and under the American defence umbrella and leadership. )

and is a very capable aircraft for air-combat, air-surveillance and international operations.

If anything your article actually endorses the Gripens suitability for Phillipine service .

gmaer

November 24th, 2010, 07:40 PM

^^ you have a point,... kung kelan marami nang namatay satin saka na tayo mag eefort na magkaroon ng dipensa,... katulad ng WW2,... kasing dami ba ng hapon yung napatay ng mga Pinoy compare mo sa mga napatay nila satin??

In WW2, nobody knew when and where will Japan start their offensive until Pearl Harbor was attacked by surprised. The Philippines was still preparing at that time with the help of the USAFFE, the Philippine Army was founded. The Philippine Navy (actually there was no Philippine Navy yet at that time but an "offshore patrol boat squadron") and Philippine Army Air Corps had few equipment because it was the US Navy and the US Army Air Corps that were tasked to handle the waters and the skies until they too were attacked by surprised on Philippine soil immediately right after Pearl Harbor.

gmaer

November 24th, 2010, 07:53 PM

I repeat because you still dont seem to get the concept, the F18 can be considered cheap vs the SU30 if the cost is based on lifetime and operational cost as a whole, price also depends on politics any aircraft can be procured at a cheap price or even for free given enough rationale for it, in the end of the day it is just as possible to purchase a cheap very basic model of non Russian aircraft to compete with the basic SU30 that you are peddling but as i have posted the SU30 MKI is now apparently costing 100 million a piece without asea etc .

So if you want a name then ill simply say F18 Super Hornet .

No, I asked for OTHER! You already mentioned the F18 on your previous post which is why I was asking for OTHER cheap but new 2-engined fighter jet. You propose like April Boy who keeps on bragging the Sokol until such time that bad news came and he stopped.

Once again you seem to have completely misunderstood an article and im having to spell it out for you .

NO I am NOT... APRIL BOY!

The Gripen as mentioned by the minister is an excellent aircraft for patrolling airspace and air to air combat exactly what we would use our planes for, while Norway was looking for an "attack" plane which is what the JSF essentially is a "bomb truck", the JSF is not a very good air superiority fighter in that role .

I know so no need to reiterate :ohno:

Norway being a small air force that cant procure multiple types has a specific role in the western alliance which is to fight in coalitions, other coalition aircraft are meant to kick down the door with air superiority fighters like the F22, EF Typhoon, Rafales or F15's etc which would then be followed up by the "bomb trucks" .

Norway has a small air force but how about the Philippines?

So here you both failed to understand Norways role in NATO and Norways role in the JSF partnership in which Norway has sunk billions of $ in return for industrial offsets, also Norway faced heavy US political preassure to remain with the now floundering JSF program, and you also then failed to understand the role of the JSF .

JSF program defined: http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/man/uswpns/air/fighter/jsf_development.html

JSF was created in the begining as a means of slowing down Europes fighter defense industry which had just come up with the Rafale, the EF Typhoon and the Gripen, the Americans wanted to secure the allegiance of the F16 Nato nations when they replaced those fighters which was why they tried to lockdown those countries by allowing them stakes in the program, today those countries are thinking twice when it comes to the JSF exactly because of the aircrafts failure to live up to its original selling points mainly as a cheap multirole aircraft to replace the F16 including in price what came out was the complete contrary a very expensive maintenance hog of a plane that is only suited for "attack" or bombing roles, for many nations it would mean the end of a serious air-air capability, the Gripen has thus emerged as the new and natural successor to the F16 as a cheap modern reliable and efficient multirole aircraft .

The JSF program plans to replace the F-16, A-10, F/A-18, AV-8B and British Harrier GR7 & GR9s, as well as the Canadian CF-18.

If anything your article actually endorses the Gripens suitability for Phillipine service .

Read again my letters in bold. It is already the Swedish Minister of Defense who admitted that their own Gripen CANNOT single-handedly perform operations, autonomous operations... meaning? You need more than 1 JAS Gripen to do the job for you... It takes two to tango!

Do you even think the Philippine Air Force will opt for a multi-role fighter that is NOT independent?

I am beginning to think that the reason why Thailand chose the JAS Gripen and decided not to retire yet their F-16 and F-5 is to pair their new JAS Gripen with their older F-16 and F-5 which is something that the Philippines doesn't have and can't afford.

gmaer

November 24th, 2010, 08:14 PM

@ Arvor: It is only now that I noticed that you're located in Stockholm which is the capital and the largest city of Sweden. No wonder why you brag so much about your own JAS Gripen! What if you're not located in Stockholm, we interchange locations... will you still brag for the JAS Gripen? Do you know what's going here in Manila, Philippines? I won't brag for the JAS Gripen... never!

AT PUPUTULIN KO DALIRI KO KUNG MAGKARON MAN NG JAS GRIPEN ANG PILIPINAS!! (do you understand tagalog? ignoranteng swedish!)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_dVQroFdPWMQ/SvpttorsM2I/AAAAAAAABHc/87lDT5aKCFU/s400/JAS39Gripen_000.jpg

+

http://en.wikipilipinas.org/images/e/e5/PAF_Seal.png

=

http://www.khanapakana.com/userfiles/chalakoo/how%20to%20cut%20finger.jpg

Arvor

November 24th, 2010, 08:40 PM

which is why I was asking for OTHER cheap but new 2-engined fighter jet.

F15 you name it ... .

Norway has a small air force but how about the Philippines?

The Phillipines would be unable to keep the JSF flying, that it is a smaller air force means that the Phillipines actually need centric warfare aircraft and related systems like the Gripen which improves efficiency of rare ressources .

Read again my letters in bold. It is already the Swedish Minister of Defense who admitted that their own Gripen CANNOT single-handedly perform operations, autonomous operations... meaning? You need more than 1 JAS Gripen to do the job for you... It takes two to tango!

Geebus no you're the one who needs to read again the minister said nothing about it not being able to operate alone, he said that its not its strong suit and was talking more about the "attack" role which is the role of a bomber, just to point it out again :

and is a very capable aircraft for air-combat, air-surveillance and international operations.

The Gripen is built as a system of systems. In other words, it is based on cooperating and sharing signal intelligence with other fighters.

What the minister meant just to simplify it down i suppose is that the Gripen is optimized for "net centric warfare" or in other words "team work" it does not preclude the air force from sending a single fighter in the air to do a patrol in hostile airspace which would be weird frankly !.

The Gripen fighter, being phased into service by the South African Air Force (SAAF), is already delivering on the promises made by its manufacturer, Saab of Sweden.

This was reported on Wednesday by Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) chief radar and electronic warfare systems engineer Francois Anderson.

Although the Gripen is still in the commissioning phase and thus is still classified as a project and not as operational aircraft, the fighters were used to help provide aerial security, enforcing restricted flight zones, for the 2010 FIFA World Cup in June and July.

The Gripens, which are operated by 2 Squadron at Air Force Base (AFB) Makhado in Limpopo province, were, during the World Cup, forward deployed to Pretoria and to AFB Overberg (near Bredasdorp) in Western Cape province.

"The pilots reported that the aircraft was delivering on the promises -- carefree handling, seamless [avionics] integration, excellent situational awareness, ease of operations away from base, and quick turnaround times," revealed Anderson.

Turnaround (refuelling and preparing an aircraft for a new mission, immediately after it has returned from a prior mission) times could be, it seems, as short as ten minutes.

"The Gripen has seamlessly integrated digital avionics with data fusion," stated Anderson, who added that it had benign flying characteristics, was agile, designed for network centric warfare, was well equipped for electronic warfare, and was quite a stealthy design.

The Royal Thai Air Force has procured an integrated air defence system with Gripen C/D, the ERIEYE airborne early warning system and a Command and Control C2 system including data link communication. In combination with bilateral Co-operation mainly focused on technology transfer, this will provide Thailand with the foundation for an advanced network based defence system.

The South African Air Force's (SAAF) growing fleet of SAAB Gripen fighters conducted about half the 51 aircraft intercepts conducted during the June/July soccer world cup. The SAAF deployed 11 of the available 15 Gripen during the month-long tournament as well as 12 of 24 BAE Systems Hawk lead-in fighter trainers.

Also deployed on interception duties were 12 unarmed Pilatus PC7 Mk II Astra trainers, 14 AgustaWestland A109M and some Eurocopter BK117 light utility helicopters. Air Force director fighters, Brigadier General John Bayne, told a Gripen briefing at the SAAB chalet at Africa Aerospace & Defence 2010 exhibition that ends today that some 347 combat air patrols (CAP) were flown to secure all 64 games.

In a similar briefing in August, Major General Les Lombard, the General Officer Commanding te Air Force Command Post said with “that grouping of aircraft we could cater for various threats, be it from paragliders right up to the possibility of hijacked airliners.”

“We deployed four Tellumat-supported Umlindi radars from 140 Squadron, three tactical mobile radars (TMR) from 142 Squadron and integrated these with our static radars, ATNS and SAAF long range, which allowed us a very good tactical integration...,” Lombard said.

“In terms of radar sensor information, the CAF (chief of the air force, Lieutenant General Carlo Gagiano, who spoke before Lombard) alluded to the effectiveness of the Gripen radar, it was really marvellous to see the effectiveness of that and many low flying aircraft were considerably surprised by our ability to detect them in areas where they thought they could fly under radar coverage. The Gripen could pass on the data – via Link ZA – to the SCC so that intercepts could be vectored onto them. This opens up a whole new concept of operations within the SAAF and is something we will pursue down the line.

“We also had the ability to integrate the radars of the navy frigates and the SA Army Thutlhwa... ...these obviously are force multipliers … the frigates were just off the coast, to give us the coverage we so badly needed for low flying aircraft [at coastal venues].” In addition, said Lombard, the SA Army deployed 29 observation posts (OP's) at various venues and these were in direct communication with the SCC “in order to supply us with visual input of very low flying aircraft or aircraft with very low radar cross section. The SA Navy supplied five further OP's in the Cape area.

Bayne noted that the air defence system recorded detected 65 non-compliant aircraft, including airliners, which led to the 51 intercepts. Nine aircraft were diverted. Police waiting at airfields took unspecified action against 43 pilots. Bayne praised the availability of the SAAF's new fighter fleet, noting that seven Gripen and four Hawk were deployed to AFB Waterkloof to provide CAP over the northern matches (Polokwane, Pretoria, Nelspruit, Johannesburg, Rustenburg, Durban and Bloemfontein) and four of each to AFB Overberg to CAP Cape Town and Port Elizabeth.

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9764:gripens-do-half-of-51-world-cup-intercepts&catid=35:Aerospace&Itemid=107

Your view of air forces and air warfare is outdated talking about dogfights and sending planes alone, this is the 21st century not the 20th the tactics your proposing became obsolete after the Korean war .

----

@ Arvor: It is only now that I noticed that you're located in Stockholm

Wow you're making the discussion personal, Stockholm is one of the cities where i sometimes stay or live but i primarily live in Brussels and Manila my family basically has property in multiple countries, i have always said that the Gripen is not my first choice but a choice based on circumstances .

AT PUPUTULIN KO DALIRI KO KUNG MAGKARON MAN NG JAS GRIPEN ANG PILIPINAS!! (do you understand tagalog? ignoranteng swedish!)

I can speak multiple languages including Swedish pero siempre marunong din ako mag tagalog, as for ignorante ikaw dito ang hindi marunong umintindi nang english bobo lol, magreracist racist ka pa dahil hindi ka manalo sa facts, sorry that tactic won't work and sige putulin mo ang daliri mo i dont really care for you're finger wrong hostage dude :lol: .

gmaer

November 24th, 2010, 08:57 PM

F15 you name it ...

I thought you said that the F-15 has already stopped production? Unless you are referring to the F-15 Silent Eagle which the Philippines cannot afford. The F-15 Silent Eagle was developed for countries who wanted something similar to the F-22 Raptor but can't afford it.

.
Your view of air forces and air warfare is kindof backwards talking about dogfights and sending planes "alone", this is the 21st century not the 20th the tactics your proposing became obsolete after the Korean war .

I don't think so... What is more economical to do? Send 2 birds for 1 stone or just one? That's why the Philippine Air Force is looking for a 2-engined multi-role fighter jet so that it will only take 1 aircraft to do the task of 2 aircraft - saves gas and money! This is not an obsolete tactic but rather a wise one for a poor country like the Philippines.

We are NOT Stockholm NOR Brussels.

Arvor

November 24th, 2010, 09:21 PM

I thought you said that the F-15 has already stopped production?

I said f15E

I don't think so... What is more economical to do? Send 2 birds for 1 stone or just one? That's why the Philippine Air Force is looking for a 2-engined multi-role fighter jet so that it will only take 1 aircraft to do the task of 2 aircraft - saves gas and money! This is not an obsolete tactic but rather a wise one for a poor country like the Philippines.

Who says you need to send two Gripens ?, and even if we went with that logic as i have stated so many times two Gripens in the air would cost less than a single SU30 due to fuel and maintenance costs .

Your arguments are becoming increasingly incoherent .

We are NOT Stockholm NOR Brussels.

Anong kinalaman ng Stockholm or Brussels ?, this is not Moscow either lol .

Like i said people can read the past couple of pages of arguments i made mine for the Gripen you made yours for the SU30 people can read and decide for themselves if they are at all interested .

gmaer

November 24th, 2010, 10:18 PM

I said f15E

You did NOT mention F15E! And if you are really referring to the F15 Silent Eagle then it is designated as F15SE not F15E.

Who says you need to send two Gripens ?, and even if we went with that logic as i have stated so many times two Gripens in the air would cost less than a single SU30 due to fuel and maintenance costs .

Your arguments are becoming increasingly incoherent .

I am no longer mentioning about the Su30 and besides you're wrong when you said that it will cost less to have 2 Gripens in the air than a single Su30 because the Su30 has more internal fuel capacity and range without external fuel drop tanks than your Swedish government's JAS Gripen!.

Anong kinalaman ng Stockholm or Brussels ?, this is not Moscow either lol .

Like i said people can read the past couple of pages of arguments i made mine for the Gripen you made yours for the SU30 people can read and decide for themselves if they are at all interested .

Who's from Moscow? I'm from Manila.

Let us have a poll instead on which MRF best suit the Philippine Air Force.

JAS Gripen = 1
F/A-18 = 1
Su-30 = 1
F-16 = 0
KFIR = 1
Mirage = 0

What else?

Arvor

November 24th, 2010, 10:37 PM

You did NOT mention F15E!

I wrote that in reference to this reference ( below )

I thought you said that the F-15 has already stopped production?

Which referred to a previous post in which i wrote f15e .

----

Who's from Moscow? I'm from Manila.

You said Brussels and Stockholm which was irrelevant to the conversation to which i posted an equally irrelevant comment, and im from Las Pinas btw you can just ask .

you're wrong when you said that it will cost less to have 2 Gripens in the air than a single Su30 because the Su30 has more internal fuel capacity and range without external fuel drop tanks than your Swedish government's JAS Gripen!.

Yes thats how inefficient you're Russian governments SU30's are they cost more to run per hour than two Gripens at the same time, in fact it cost the equivalent of at least 4 Gripens to run a single SU30 per hour .

----

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Caesar mobile artillery + Atlas information and communication system ( Thailand procured this system aswell )

What "network centric" and or "system of systems" mean in practice .

Here is a good example of network centric warfare, above you will see the caesar artillery system under command from a command vehicle using the atlas command and communications system .

4 caesars along with their escorts and command vehicle are deployed in a battlezone, it takes the four caesars two minutes to set up their canons and fire 24 shells at the designated target and then half the time to pack up and leave the firing position before their own shells even hit the target, thus preventing the possibility of counter battery fire from the enemy, they are now ready to deploy to their next location and destroy their next target .

The caesar batteries location can be seen by the commander in the field command vehicle, the commander can basically see and know whatever all his and other units or forces on the ground or air can see and vice versa, the commander can thus order either a single canon or an entire battery group to fire at any target visible to the system of systems, this means that if there is a drone flying over Basilan and spots insurgents the commander can know and see it in real time and immediately dispatch the proper unit to take them out, in this case a mobile artilery unit but he can just aswell send aircraft, sea or ground forces .

The system is also capable of processing information and sending orders to the appropriate units automatically .

This is the power of net centric warfare in that you gain a greater and instant or real time information of where all your forces are and depending on your systems reach where all your enemies are located aswell, this means that you can do more with less and faster .

The same principle applies with the Gripen as exemplified by the South African forces experience during the world cup last summer where their commanders had a superb view of the territory, the Gripens the warships and land based units were able to share information in real time and thus have a greater awareness of the battlespace, this meant that they were able to efficiently allocate the best assets to intercept targets .

This is what the minister meant regarding "a system of systems" .

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Singapore network centric forces

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ERIEYE - Explained

I am beginning to think that the reason why Thailand chose the JAS Gripen

Thailand imo bought the Gripen and the Caesar artilery system including Atlas and new systems for its navy for the purposes of trying out or developing a modern network centric warfare system like those employed in the west and Singapore in asean, it wouldnt surprise me if Thailand start procuring other related systems in the near future such as future soldier gear .

By purchasing Caesar, Gripen and Saab Erieye Thailand is cementing its place as asean's 2nd most advanced military force behind Singapore .

kalbongdad

November 25th, 2010, 01:54 AM

Simple Dude

November 25th, 2010, 10:39 AM

In WW2, nobody knew when and where will Japan start their offensive until Pearl Harbor was attacked by surprised. The Philippines was still preparing at that time with the help of the USAFFE, the Philippine Army was founded. The Philippine Navy (actually there was no Philippine Navy yet at that time but an "offshore patrol boat squadron") and Philippine Army Air Corps had few equipment because it was the US Navy and the US Army Air Corps that were tasked to handle the waters and the skies until they too were attacked by surprised on Philippine soil immediately right after Pearl Harbor.

^^ hehe yah, thats why we have to be more prepared now coz we never know when the aggressors will strike,... it might be now, later or tomorrow... tsaka masaklap pa ay kung makikita nalang natin ang mga taong pinahihirapan, pinapatay at nag iiyakan dahil sa wala tayong panlaban sa kanila at wala na tayong magagawa :cheers:

Simple Dude

November 25th, 2010, 10:46 AM

much ado about nothing......sa pinas under study pa ng isang decada ang bibilhin na air assets....siguro another decade to actually buy them....before it gets delivered....luma na so kailangan ng mag study ulit ng another decade....might as well wag na bumili naka save pa tayo....:lol:

^^ you have a point,... hehe this country really suckz,... mga bobo kasi yung karamihang nakaupo,... :lol: dapat nga diba mas una pa tayo sa Thailand at Singapore magkaroon nyan kasi ikumpara mo Pilipinas sa Thailand,... mas malala kaguluhan dito eh,... dun, anong kaaway nila?? mga red shirts?? ano kaya satin?? NPA, Abu Sayaf, Moro Islamic Liberation front which is supported by foreign people and is really Heavily armed... :cheers:

kalbongdad

November 25th, 2010, 03:45 PM

^^ you have a point,... hehe this country really suckz,... mga bobo kasi yung karamihang nakaupo,... :lol: dapat nga diba mas una pa tayo sa Thailand at Singapore magkaroon nyan kasi ikumpara mo Pilipinas sa Thailand,... mas malala kaguluhan dito eh,... dun, anong kaaway nila?? mga red shirts?? ano kaya satin?? NPA, Abu Sayaf, Moro Islamic Liberation front which is supported by foreign people and is really Heavily armed... :cheers:

oi ano ka i disagree....matatalino mga tao dito....puro nga study ang ginagawa eh....:lol:

gmaer

November 25th, 2010, 04:16 PM

^^ When Thailand bought the JAS Gripen they also ordered an AWACS plane from SAAB so that means if the Philippines will buy the JAS Gripen they will also need to buy an AWACS plane but they don't have any plans of buying an AWACS plane!

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/2056/16893943.jpg

Arvor

November 25th, 2010, 06:02 PM

Thailand simply bought the package because like i said they seem to be following in the footsteps of Singapore in building net centric warfare capabilities, its not necessary to buy the erieye system other countries simply bought the fighter, in any case the erieye is a force multiplyer even if we dont buy gripen or fighters or if we bought other fighters it would be very useful .

For example it could be coupled with our existing S.211 light jets or ww2 era warships or smaller ships with less capability, acting as their ears and eyes and enhancing command and control improving our capability to intercept aircraft or illegal vessels in our territory .

Right now we have little means of knowing who is in our territory both in the air or on our seas, we cant even bill commercial airliners properly for passing through our airspace because we have radar gaps costing us transit revenues .

For all we know unless someone looks there could be a Chinese ship parked off our east coast right now and their crew is having a BBQ on our beaches in Aurora province .

gmaer

November 25th, 2010, 06:56 PM

For example it could be coupled with our existing S.211 light jets or ww2 era warships or smaller ships with less capability, acting as their ears and eyes and enhancing command and control improving our capability to intercept aircraft or illegal vessels in our territory .

Not all Philippine Navy warships are WW2-era:

1. Jacinto Class (RN Peacock Class)
2. Mariano Alvarez Class (USN Cyclone Class)
3. Gen. Emilio Aguinaldo Class - proudly Filipino-made!
4. Tomas Batillo Class (ROKN Chamsuri PKM Class)

Arvor

November 25th, 2010, 07:33 PM

Relax no one said they were all ww2 ... .

gmaer

November 25th, 2010, 11:08 PM

Not all Philippine Navy warships are WW2-era:

1. Jacinto Class (RN Peacock Class)
2. Mariano Alvarez Class (USN Cyclone Class)
3. Gen. Emilio Aguinaldo Class - proudly Filipino-made!
4. Tomas Batillo Class (ROKN Chamsuri PKM Class)

Did you know? That the BRP Emilio Aguinaldo class was initially designed and developed to be the 1st missile boat of the Philippine Navy. The plan was made by former President Marcos but was canceled by the next president that followed him so the BRP Emilio Aguinaldo class ended up as a pure gun boat.

See http://newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/SearchResults.aspx?keyword=philippine%20navy%2C%20ferdinand%20marcos&lang=en

Marcos to launch gunboat [Articles]
The Straits Times, 22 June 1984, Page 3, AFP

Marcos to launch gunboat MANILA, Thurs. The Philippine navy's first missile-firing gunboat would be launched by President Ferdinand Marcos on Saturday, navy spokesmen said today. Designed and built by Filipino naval architects and engineers, the 44-m, 215-tonne vessel named after the first Philippine President Emilio Aguinaldo, would be equipped with ...

The 1st picture is the BRP EMILIO AGUINALDO gunboat and the 2nd picture is a 32 meter missile boat armed with 4 Gabriel Missiles.

(44 meters)
http://timawa.net/images/contributions/c_aguinaldoclass2.jpg

(32 meters)
http://img2.imageshost.ru/imgs/8df9f495676ce3ed48fd248783904984/5fa68f38d5d127189898f8a037ebf1aa.jpg

Gabriel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_(missile)) missile listed the Philippine Navy as one of the users. May be a former operator?