Thais and Indonesians doesnt have to depend on foreign aid to fight insurgency so why dont us? Do we have money and equipment? No!! and that's the actual problem...

Sorry my friend, but Thailand and Indonesia received U.S. assistance....

And if you read the full article, they (Thais) weren't very helpful. Not surprising coming from a country of military coups and human-rights violations.

As for Indonesia, look where they are heading...Islamic Fundamentalism. Need proof? Read about the Bali bombings and current news about Indonesia. It's not hard to figure out....

http://www.openairwaves.net/militaryaid/report.aspx?aid=860

Here is a link of all countries that received U.S. military aid assistance...

Keep in mind, these were countries with HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS...

If critics want to bash the U.S. for going into Iraq, look what the U.S. continues to pay for to fight the war on terror. It's not just Iraq and the oil. Call it another form of imperialism if you will, but I'll leave that to be debated in another thread...

http://www.openairwaves.net/militaryaid/HumanRights.aspx

lol, indonesia there is a religous war going on with beheadings and massacres it is muslims vs. christians. Towns, villages and cities of either muslim or christian are at war with each other and each side with their own paramilitary that conduct genocides against each other.

And with thailand the southern part of it is severly plauged by terrorism by islamic fundamentalist who want a separate state.

IMHO they are no better than us.

look at whats going on in indonesia http://youtube.com/watch?v=8Bo-ZRb1Edg :no:

Here is a link of all countries that received U.S. military aid assistance...

Keep in mind, these were countries with HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS...

If critics want to bash the U.S. for going into Iraq, look what the U.S. continues to pay for to fight the war on terror. It's not just Iraq and the oil. Call it another form of imperialism if you will, but I'll leave that to be debated in another thread...

http://www.openairwaves.net/militaryaid/HumanRights.aspx

those countries are of strategic benefit to U.S. that is why they aid lol and israel is on top of the list no wonder why... :lol: it is self explanatory

if u.s is so much concern about human rights violations why don't it invade somalia or sudan and put things in order where there is a genocide going on or zimbabwe where robert mugabe is ruling like hitler, or north korea wherein there is a real weapons of mass destruction and of course cuba which is a pain in the ass for decades and is just a few 100 miles off their shores.... would it make any difference if these countries have a considerable amount of "OIL RESERVES" like iraq....?? xD

^^^ somalia and sudan's problems are internal, it means against their own fellow man.. hath it from a foreign forces and direct threat to the US mainland and interest such as naval and us airforce bases, then there would be war...

The Philippines gets some funding from America and the Philippines doesn't really have not much of strategic point for the Americans for we have bases in Korea and Japan, it's like the Philippines have not much value to the US other than a former US colony and that the muslim insurgents may also use the Philippines by the arab fundamentalist as a training ground for the reason being that the backdoor of the Philippines is very much open to the arab world.

^^ If that so i wanna ask why was iraq invaded when it has no direct threat to the U.S.?? or am i forgetting something that iraq was threat to israel which is a primary U.S. interest...

And dude, other than concerns over islamic insurgency the philippines is still a great strategic assest to the U.S. here in south east asia specially in the china sea because japan and korea bases are far away over up there. They are still in need to establish satelite bases here in our country specially that china is growing militarily and it's influence is growing over the South east asian region.

Yes, I definitely agree with marxman and TJ of having U.S. bases here again in the Philippines, even if it is on a short temporary basis.

I would highly recommend the southern Mindanao region where the A.R.M.M is located.

Back during the Cold War, the bases were near metro-Manila in Luzon, the central point of Philippine government administration. The U.S. didn't want communism taking over Manila (and the rest of the country) like it did in Hanoi, Vietnam - just a hop and skip away across the South China Sea.

Now, the problem is the islamic insurgency in the south like Basilan and some parts of Zamboanga. Don't forget GenSan and Davao as well. With Indonesia providing the political platform and safe-haven for filipino insurgents, the RP and US need to work together again to stop this foolishness of murders/kidnappings that go on EVERY SINGLE YEAR for decades and decades!!!

temporary? how long is that "temporary" ..do you think the US will temporarily stay here? I hope what you called Islamic insurgency may not blow-out of proportion ... media only makes this called insurgencies BIG ..there are also Islamic extremies in US and in Europe may say more bloody than this called scalawags in Mindanao.as i said before only Filipinos can solve the prob of Filipinos....

and Clark and Subic was not strategically based in Luzon bec of communism it was already operating way backworld war I

temporary? how long is that "temporary" ..do you think the US will temporarily stay here? I hope what you called Islamic insurgency may not blow-out of proportion ... media only makes this called insurgencies BIG ..there are also Islamic extremies in US and in Europe may say more bloody than this called scalawags in Mindanao.as i said before only Filipinos can solve the prob of Filipinos....

and Clark and Subic was not strategically based in Luzon bec of communism it was already operating way backworld war I

I say "TEMPORARY" because probably filipinos like you would protest and want the bases out.

Other Islamic extremities in U.S. and Europe? Of course there are!

But why don't you care about the extremeties here in the Philippines? Focus on the problem here and stop worrying about other places, they also have to focus on their problems.

I say the bases here in the Philippines will help make a difference in fighting Islamic extremists....

Of course media blows things out of proportions. But sometimes they are the truth, and bombings/murders from insurgents have a BIGGER impact on the future stability and reputation of the Philippines in the long run.

Clark and Subic were STILL central locations during the Cold War. It didn't need to move, it was further developed. But yes, it was still central to the Philippine government and was a deterrence against communism. :ohno:

And yes. It was still strategically based in Manila, REGARDLESS when it was built. There where many airfields and camps the Americans built during the early 1900s. Even Makati had an airfield which is now part of Ayala Ave.!!!! :ohno:

Only filipinos can solve the problem of filipinos? Well, some of us can't wait forever...

You can wait all you want...... :ohno:

^^ I care or the right word is concern , my point is why Filipinos are so focus on mindanao insurgencies? imo mostly they are scalawags and small time bandits operating in small pockets in the island & put a US Base bec of that?well as you said we worry in our problem then let go of uncle sam , are we afraid that we cannot do the fighting? do you think it's bigger than the NPA's ? It's so ridiculous Thailand has more violent killings from "islamic extremists"(no uncle sam to the rescue) in there places but there media never blow it out of proportion ..never been a Thai headline .

and if ever the US will put a base, it's for their own good (security) not bec for the Filipinos.

^^ u seem to underestimate our own homegrown terrorist capabilities to kill and mass murder...ffs they blew up a passenger ship.. do u remember the super ferry fire where hundreds died? The abu-sayyaf they are the ones who put the bomb in that ship and killed those people.

^^they(extremies) blew The twin towers in New York too.. kills thousands of people.... so you think uncle sam can solve it ? if you really want the root cause of the problem you go back to mindanao history my friend ... it's already in their veins even you cut-off the heads of their leaders still young weeds will grow .

They are trying to solve by invading by afghanistan and going after bin-laden it was going good until the focus went on iraq and thats were all the bad sh*t happen becoz they should not be there in the firsr place.

Same with here i think we are in need for U.S. aid to solve this problems becoz kapos tayo sa budget pare at luma na yung mga equipment natin minsan mas hightech pa yung mga terrorista... ok gets

Also what do u mean it is already in their veins?? u mean ang terrorismo ay nasa ugat at dugo na nila?? so what do u suggest we kill them and their family and their children?? if we do that or even just think in that way then we are no better than them.

edit: tell u most of these so called members of the abu-sayyaf of npa or any terrorist group are not even true to their ideology they just in their as mercenaries kasi ang hirap ng buhay nila at kaya nila e benta ang buhay nila para may makain lang yung pamilya nila. To solve it we need to better the standard of living of these people in those areas becoz as i said insurgency breeds and thrives in areas where poverty, poor education and hunger is prensent.

and if ever the US will put a base, it's for their own good (security) not bec for the Filipinos.

Nope, they meant forward base, not permanent military base just like in Clark or Subic before.

Yes, I definitely agree with marxman and TJ of having U.S. bases here again in the Philippines, even if it is on a short temporary basis.

I would highly recommend the southern Mindanao region where the A.R.M.M is located.

Back during the Cold War, the bases were near metro-Manila in Luzon, the central point of Philippine government administration. The U.S. didn't want communism taking over Manila (and the rest of the country) like it did in Hanoi, Vietnam - just a hop and skip away across the South China Sea.

Now, the problem is the islamic insurgency in the south like Basilan and some parts of Zamboanga. Don't forget GenSan and Davao as well. With Indonesia providing the political platform and safe-haven for filipino insurgents, the RP and US need to work together again to stop this foolishness of murders/kidnappings that go on EVERY SINGLE YEAR for decades and decades!!!


okey we put the US forward bases in Kalayaan Islands Group in the south China sea, Cagayan de Sulu ) near Sandakan Sabah, and Davao Gulf, with the below conditions :

1. pay rental for the base, same amount as what the US pay for their bases in Turkey, Portugal, etc.
2. the rental to pay in cash and not half in scrapped military planes, naval vesels, etc. Or they can
pay with the latest / modern type of military planes, naval vessels and other war machines.
3. the military base agreement should be pattern like their military bases agreement with Japan,
South Korea, and other European countries especially for crimes committed inside or outside their
bases.
4. the Base should be under the control of Philippine government.
5. No Nuclear weapons or chemicals harmful to the environment could be stored in the base.
6. Pinoy citizens who can afford to travel to US mainland and territories should be exempted from
Visa requirement to enter the US, just like the citizens of Western European and Australians.
7. US military personnels charge of committing crime inside or outside their bases whether off-duty
or not, must be tried in a Philippine Court in MetroManila and should be detained in a Philippine Jail.
8. US serviceman convicted of raping a Filipina should be castrated in Rizal Park in Manila before
detaining in our jails. :lol:
9. After the period of 20 years the US Military base should be turn-over to our government with all
equipments to be turn-over to our government. And then they can establish another base in other
parts of our country as designed by the government.

the above were just some important points to be included in the Base Agreement.

:

^^ u seem to underestimate our own homegrown terrorist capabilities to kill and mass murder...ffs they blew up a passenger ship.. do u remember the super ferry fire where hundreds died? The abu-sayyaf they are the ones who put the bomb in that ship and killed those people.


please note the word "terrorist" is only a relative word, anyone can apply it to the other opponent camps.

before the founding of Israel, the heroes and the founding father of Israel were called terrorist by the British. To those Israelis they believe they were freedom fighters.

also during the Phil-American War the americans called the Filipino revolutionist as insurgents and terrorist. but to us they were our freedom fighters.

Do you know how many hundreds of Filipinos were killed by the US Cavalry in Balangiga Samar and in Sulu during the Phil-American War.

Soldiers killed people because they have to obey the orders from their superiors and I cannot blame them. Guerillas killed people because of their political beliefs and I cannot blame them or judge them.
BUT soldiers and guerillas should follow the Geneva Convention on the rules of warfare.


The Abu Sayaff were terrorist but not the other rebel groups like the MILF, MNLF, etc.


I am neither anti-American, nor against our government, nor pro-rebel group. we just have to understand the feelings and beliefs of others.

that not all those who were against the Americans were terrorist, and not all rebels against our government were terrorist.

The Pinoy Muslims were fighting for justice and survival of their ethnic groups. Our government should win their hearts and minds because military might will not defeat them. Their childrens and their grandchildrens will continue their fights if they were defeated by military might.. it will be just another never ending war story.

While other rebels were fighting for their political beliefs which they rightly or wrongly think is the best for our corrupt country.

Terrorist to one is a freedom fighter to the other.

of course the islamic militants who destroy the Twin Tower of Manhattan were terrorist, Also I believe the Abu Sayaff were terrorrist. But not the others, they were Freedom fighters.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marianas.jpg


Posts: 1006

Re: is marianas really ours? or not?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2007, 08:49:52 am »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The island is ours, if the Philippines is a superpower.



Re: is marianas really ours? or not?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2007, 11:09:14 am »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lets launch a invasion force .... 2 marine battalions then retreat balik sa pinas just for fun

lets just say it was a experimental military maneuvers blah blah

I even think that what had once belonged to Spain now belonged to us, filipinos. (uti possidentis) But difficult for america possesed those islands. yet the majority of those islands belongs to filipinos, as well as those chamorros who spoke the language similar to the bisaya.

and geographically, it is situate in the philippine sea.

once, i have read the book made during the marcos administration, aside from sabah, the philippines attempted to have claim over marianas and the carolines.


Logged



Paul kyre
Member

Posts: 139



Re: is marianas really ours? or not?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2007, 12:00:15 am »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: el_commandante on May 25, 2007, 08:49:52 am
The island is ours, if the Philippines is a superpower.



it can be, a strong navy is better as well as a marine force. For we, filipinos, is situated in an archipelago, we require a strong modernized navy. and it is an obligation to modernize it.

Logged



Paul kyre
Member

Posts: 139



Re: is marianas really ours? or not?
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2007, 12:04:27 am »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: Fern374702 on May 25, 2007, 11:09:14 am
lets launch a invasion force .... 2 marine battalions then retreat balik sa pinas just for fun

lets just say it was a experimental military maneuvers blah blah


but if the filipinos living there support us, it is more than experimental. i evfen think that before that, we must have a strong navy and intelligence before we think of an invasion-or liberation.

i even think it would remind of the malvinas war.


¡Tras su manto de neblinas,
no las hemos de olvidar!
"¡Las Marianas-Filipinas!",
clama el viento y ruge el mar.


Ni de aquellos horizontes
nuestra enseña han de arrancar,
pues su blanco está en los montes
y en su azul se tiñe el mar.

Por ausente, por vencido
bajo extraño pabellón,
ningún suelo más querido
de la Patria en la extensión.

¿Quién nos habla aquí de olvido,
de renuncia, de perdón?
¡Ningún suelo más querido
de la Patria en la extensión!

¡Rompa el manto de neblinas,
como un sol, nuestro ideal;
Las Marianas-Filipinas,
en dominio ya inmortal!

Y ante el sol de nuestro emblema,
pura, nítida y triunfal,
brille, ¡oh Patria!, en tu diadema
la Perdida perla del Este.

¡Para honor de nuestro emblema,
para orgullo nacional,
brille, ¡oh patria!, en tu diadema
la Perdida perla del Este

this would be the song-out of the original "Malvinas Argentinas"





« Last Edit: June 10, 2007, 12:08:52 am by Paul kyre » Logged



pj_aranda
Member

Posts: 218



Re: is marianas really ours? or not?
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2007, 06:48:45 am »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aba pwedeng maging plausible scenario yan kung na mind control tayo ng mga naunang gobiyerno na sa atin ang malvinas hehehe. Marianas war tapos ang mga kelpers mga chamorros hehehe


Logged



hughdotoh
Member

Posts: 272



Re: is marianas really ours? or not?
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2007, 01:28:37 pm »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anybody asked the Marianas locals if they would want to be administered by Filipinos?

Logged



Hauptmann Loyd
Member

Posts: 12



Re: is marianas really ours? or not?
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2007, 10:21:27 am »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt it if they ever want us to administer them considering what we have been thru and where we have been now after 50 years have past since independence from america.

Logged



Paul kyre
Member

Posts: 139



Re: is marianas really ours? or not?
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2007, 02:22:41 am »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the inhibitants in the marianas islands, Guam, and in Carolines are mostly chamorros, followed by descendants of filipino settlers lived during the spanish Regime.

In fact,

Spanish political prisoners (primarily Filipino revolutionaries) were deported to both Guam and the Marianas Islands. This caused the native Chamorros bloodline and their culture to become strongly influenced by the Filipinos. Currently, the Chamorro, are of mixed Micronesian, Spanish, and Filipino blood, and three in ten Guamanians have a direct Filipino ancestor. The Chamorro language have also been affected which caused it to have word cognates with languages found in the Philippines, specially Bisaya.

In Palau, 16% of the population is composed of ethnic Filipinos, most of whom are primarily descendants of exiled political prisoners. Filipinos also constitute the majority in the Northern Mariana Islands, and the second most numerous ethnic group in both Guam and Palau, and a minority in the Caroline Islands.

While Palau and the Marianas Islands were heavily affected by Filipino culture, the Marshall Islands and Micronesia remained relatively unaffected.

General Artemio Ricarte used to think about these islands as a part of a greater Philippine Nation, the so-called "Rizaline Republic".


Logged



hughdotoh
Member

Posts: 272



Re: is marianas really ours? or not?
« Reply #11 on: Today at 10:56:28 AM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to put it into perspective, the Spanish almost wiped out the native Chamorros (the Spanish called them Ladrones, "thieves"). The last full-blooded Chamorro died in the 19th century. Then it was populated with Filipinos, Chinese, and Polynesians.

But hey, they got cute chicks in Agana.

Logged



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i agree with your neutral view on this issue. Only a handful of Muslims blew up ships, planes and themselves but yet the whole world accuse all Muslims of being a terrorist. At the same time the world never care about other 'freedom fighters' in Sri Lanka (the most equipped 'terrorist' group in the world), communist NPA in the Philippines, ETA in Spain and other countries.

Just because the Arab drove the plane toward the Twin Tower, they became the enemy of the United States, and automatically they are the enemy of the world. And virtually every Muslim are being branded as terrorist.

please note the word "terrorist" is only a relative word, anyone can apply it to the other opponent camps.

before the founding of Israel, the heroes and the founding father of Israel were called terrorist by the British. To those Israelis they believe they were freedom fighters.

also during the Phil-American War the americans called the Filipino revolutionist as insurgents and terrorist. but to us they were our freedom fighters.

Do you know how many hundreds of Filipinos were killed by the US Cavalry in Balangiga Samar and in Sulu during the Phil-American War.

Soldiers killed people because they have to obey the orders from their superiors and I cannot blame them. Guerillas killed people because of their political beliefs and I cannot blame them or judge them.
BUT soldiers and guerillas should follow the Geneva Convention on the rules of warfare.


The Abu Sayaff were terrorist but not the other rebel groups like the MILF, MNLF, etc.


I am neither anti-American, nor against our government, nor pro-rebel group. we just have to understand the feelings and beliefs of others.

that not all those who were against the Americans were terrorist, and not all rebels against our government were terrorist.

The Pinoy Muslims were fighting for justice and survival of their ethnic groups. Our government should win their hearts and minds because military might will not defeat them. Their childrens and their grandchildrens will continue their fights if they were defeated by military might.. it will be just another never ending war story.

While other rebels were fighting for their political beliefs which they rightly or wrongly think is the best for our corrupt country.

Terrorist to one is a freedom fighter to the other.

of course the islamic militants who destroy the Twin Tower of Manhattan were terrorist, Also I believe the Abu Sayaff were terrorrist. But not the others, they were Freedom fighters.

i know... term for terrorism is a war method it can be used by both sides in war wether be it conventional or guerilla as i said it and explained myself in old defence thread some very long ass time ago.

But nevertheless abu-sayaf are still terrorists for they do acts of terrorism so is the military if they kill and intimidate civilians they are doing acts of terror. Like for example the political killing all over the country is an act of terrorism itself.

They are trying to solve by invading by afghanistan and going after bin-laden it was going good until the focus went on iraq and thats were all the bad sh*t happen becoz they should not be there in the firsr place.

Same with here i think we are in need for U.S. aid to solve this problems becoz kapos tayo sa budget pare at luma na yung mga equipment natin minsan mas hightech pa yung mga terrorista... ok gets

Also what do u mean it is already in their veins?? u mean ang terrorismo ay nasa ugat at dugo na nila?? so what do u suggest we kill them and their family and their children?? if we do that or even just think in that way then we are no better than them.

edit: tell u most of these so called members of the abu-sayyaf of npa or any terrorist group are not even true to their ideology they just in their as mercenaries kasi ang hirap ng buhay nila at kaya nila e benta ang buhay nila para may makain lang yung pamilya nila. To solve it we need to better the standard of living of these people in those areas becoz as i said insurgency breeds and thrives in areas where poverty, poor education and hunger is prensent.



still trying? well they paid huge MONEY to Pakistan to solved the Alqaida but still no Bin Laden, new camps are sprouting inside afghanistan ... the problem w/ the americans they thought they can solve terrorists prob by imposing their strength ( military bases are included) w/ conventional warfare against an unconventional enemy ..as in intel parlance will tell you " be a terrorist to capture a terrorist"
I agree we lacked equipments and training but i always believed that Filipinos can only solved "internal" problems just like in Iraq they can only solved their problems.

If you read mindanao history our brother muslims was here long before us . they fought against the spaniards , americans and the japanese , and they are threatened by christians who are dominating the politcal and economic landscape.
quoting your "this abu sayaf is not true to their ideology" that's why i said they are band of scalawags and small time bandits who are just for the money , the true muslims are those peace loving who are "learned" who fight there war thru writings .

I quoted Igacis bec it's ridiculous putting a US base just for the sake of fighting this scalawags,,, putting a base is just putting target for the terrorists .

If you really want Filipinos not to fight each other pls. don't make Mindanao the scapegoat making the "woes of the Phils" . of anything goes bad its bec of mindanao ... the real problems are our socio-economic woes, centric governtment and greedy politicians

still trying? well they paid huge MONEY to Pakistan to solved the Alqaida but still no Bin Laden, new camps are sprouting inside afghanistan ... the problem w/ the americans they thought they can solve terrorists prob by imposing their strength ( military bases are included) w/ conventional warfare against an unconventional enemy ..as in intel parlance will tell you " be a terrorist to capture a terrorist"
I agree we lacked equipments and training but i always believed that Filipinos can only solved "internal" problems just like in Iraq they can only solved their problems.

If you read mindanao history our brother muslims was here long before us . they fought against the spaniards , americans and the japanese , and they are treaten by christians who are dominating the politcal and economic landscape.
quoting your "this abu sayaf is not true to their ideology" that's why i said they are band of scalawags and small time bandits who are just for the money , the true muslims are those peace loving who are "learned" who fight there war thru writings .

I quoted Igacis bec it's ridiculous putting a US base just for the sake of fighting this scalawags,,, putting a base is just putting target for the terrorists .

If you really want Filipinos not to fight each other pls don't make Mindanao the scapegoat making woes of the Phils . of anyrhing goes bad bec of mindanao ... the real problems are our socio-economic woes, centric government and greedy politicians



my friend, perhaps we can also allow the American Base provided it is not inside Muslim Mindanao, the best possible site is Davao Gulf or Surigao, Kalayaan Island in south China Sea, and also provided the below conditions were met.

1. pay rental for the base, same amount (or bigger amount) as what the US pay for their bases in Turkey, Portugal, etc.

2. the rental to pay in cash and not half in scrapped military planes, naval vesels, etc. Or they can
pay with the latest / modern type of military planes, naval vessels and other war machines.

3. the military base agreement should be pattern like their military bases agreement with Japan,
South Korea, and other European countries especially for crimes committed inside or outside their
bases.

4. the Base should be under the control of Philippine government.

5. No Nuclear weapons or chemicals harmful to the environment could be stored in the base.

6. Pinoy citizens who can afford to travel to US mainland and territories should be exempted from
Visa requirement to enter the US, just like the citizens of Western European and Australians.

7. US military personnels charge of committing crime inside or outside their bases whether off-duty
or not, must be tried in a Philippine Court in MetroManila and should be detained in a Philippine Jail.

8. US serviceman convicted of raping a Filipina should be castrated in Rizal Park in Manila before
detaining in our jails. Castaring and jailing in Philippine jail of guilty American serviceman is applicable whether the Pinay rape victim is a pious lady or a prostitute.

9. After the period of 20 years the US Military base should be turn-over to our government with all
military equipments intact and to be turn-over to our government. And then they can establish another base in other parts of our country as designed by the government.

the above were just some important points to be included in the Base Agreement.

:

okey we put the US forward bases in Kalayaan Islands Group in the south China sea, Cagayan de Sulu ) near Sandakan Sabah, and Davao Gulf, with the below conditions :

1. pay rental for the base, same amount as what the US pay for their bases in Turkey, Portugal, etc.
2. the rental to pay in cash and not half in scrapped military planes, naval vesels, etc. Or they can
pay with the latest / modern type of military planes, naval vessels and other war machines.
3. the military base agreement should be pattern like their military bases agreement with Japan,
South Korea, and other European countries especially for crimes committed inside or outside their
bases.
4. the Base should be under the control of Philippine government.
5. No Nuclear weapons or chemicals harmful to the environment could be stored in the base.
6. Pinoy citizens who can afford to travel to US mainland and territories should be exempted from
Visa requirement to enter the US, just like the citizens of Western European and Australians.
7. US military personnels charge of committing crime inside or outside their bases whether off-duty
or not, must be tried in a Philippine Court in MetroManila and should be detained in a Philippine Jail.
8. US serviceman convicted of raping a Filipina should be castrated in Rizal Park in Manila before
detaining in our jails. :lol:
9. After the period of 20 years the US Military base should be turn-over to our government with all
equipments to be turn-over to our government. And then they can establish another base in other
parts of our country as designed by the government.

the above were just some important points to be included in the Base Agreement.

:

sa #4 lang ba backout na ang kano niyan :D

i think its enough to train our Filipino soldiers to fight terrorism , more on intel trainng and also i suggest the Israeli army are more capable to train us when it comes to fighting terrorists.... Moshe Dayan style!

still trying? well they paid huge MONEY to Pakistan to solved the Alqaida but still no Bin Laden, new camps are sprouting inside afghanistan ... the problem w/ the americans they thought they can solve terrorists prob by imposing their strength ( military bases are included) w/ conventional warfare against an unconventional enemy ..as in intel parlance will tell you " be a terrorist to capture a terrorist"
I agree we lacked equipments and training but i always believed that Filipinos can only solved "internal" problems just like in Iraq they can only solved their problems.

If you read mindanao history our brother muslims was here long before us . they fought against the spaniards , americans and the japanese , and they are treaten by christians who are dominating the politcal and economic landscape.
quoting your "this abu sayaf is not true to their ideology" that's why i said they are band of scalawags and small time bandits who are just for the money , the true muslims are those peace loving who are "learned" who fight there war thru writings .

I quoted Igacis bec it's ridiculous putting a US base just for the sake of fighting this scalawags,,, putting a base is just putting target for the terrorists .

If you really want Filipinos not to fight each other pls don't make Mindanao the scapegoat making woes of the Phils . of anyrhing goes bad bec of mindanao ... the real problems are our socio-economic woes, centric government and greedy politicians

The main purpose of the bases isn't really to aid us and fight terrorism but to generate revenues... ;)

i agree with u regarding the mistake of the u.s war policy towards iraq but regarding afghanistan i think the u.s have a real sensible reason as to why they invaded it

1. major al-qaeda bases hosted by the taliban
2. osama bin laden
3. thousands of islamic terrorists are trained over there and send to all corners of the world.

As i told over and over before in previous topics i know about this things dude and the ideas of 4th generation warfare which there is no battlefronts and the battle can be fought anywhere anytime using hit and run methods and blending with the civilians. In which the conventional army will find it very difficult to deal with as evidenced as to what is happening in iraq and afghanistan.

I also agree about not allowing the americans to fight here in our soil, like how they fight in iraq because it will only bring and attract more terrorist to our soil.

Because look here folks al-qaeda and other terrorist groups have never been in iraq now that the u.s. is in iraq al-qaeda is also now in iraq and other various extremist factions.

Same can happen here that is why we can only allow the u.s. to give minimal assistance like equipment and training with no further combat assistance if we don't want our country to be the next iraq.

Because im sure if americans will take our war into their own hands this will open the floodgates of jihadis from all countries to fight their war here in our soil.

also to add I watched of videos in youtube and other sites regarding various warlords that were interviewed in afghanistan iraq, serbia and chechnya and mind u the philippines is always mention by this jihadist leaders as one their major fronts in their global jihad.

^^ If that so i wanna ask why was iraq invaded when it has no direct threat to the U.S.?? or am i forgetting something that iraq was threat to israel which is a primary U.S. interest...

And dude, other than concerns over islamic insurgency the philippines is still a great strategic assest to the U.S. here in south east asia specially in the china sea because japan and korea bases are far away over up there. They are still in need to establish satelite bases here in our country specially that china is growing militarily and it's influence is growing over the South east asian region.

Then why did the US abandoned the US air and Naval bases in the 90s instead of rebuilding it after Mt Pinatubo eruptions? US could of offered more compensations, finanacial and such , invest more money to rebuild the bases if it's really a dire need for the regional stability in the region? Korea and Japan are far more closer to China and Russia than the Philippines which is whom the US needs to watch out as the cold war between Russia and the US has long melt down with several Russian states separated from USSR.

As far as Iraq is concern, at first there was a direct threat to the US because the US spy whom is an Iraqi national failed to give a proper information to the US as far as WMD and that it was suspected that Iraq at the time was a training ground for Al Quaida terrorist cell. The US spy in Iraq failed, US can't back out anymore since the US already attacked Iraq with no proof of an actual weapon of mass destructions. The fallen former dictator has been a threat to its neighboring arab countries even back in early eighties and earlier on, not to mention that the late S.Hussein is murdering it's own people. We don't want to go into details here in this thread plus we covered all these in the past.

^^ yep the U.S. attacked iraq based on wrong information and now it's too late abd yes this was discussed in previous defense thread.

U.S. withdraw and did not rebuild because our politics decided that these bases should go wether or not the mt.pinatubo erupted.

And since also at that time USSR has just recently collapsed ending the coldwar thus the need for U.S. to maintain the base.

But now with the rise of china as a superpower the u.s. might think of re-establishing bases again here in the philippines since philippines is in a very strategic postion and is near the china sea which holds vast amounts of resources specially oil.

I say "TEMPORARY" because probably filipinos like you would protest and want the bases out.

Other Islamic extremities in U.S. and Europe? Of course there are!

But why don't you care about the extremeties here in the Philippines? Focus on the problem here and stop worrying about other places, they also have to focus on their problems.

I say the bases here in the Philippines will help make a difference in fighting Islamic extremists....

Of course media blows things out of proportions. But sometimes they are the truth, and bombings/murders from insurgents have a BIGGER impact on the future stability and reputation of the Philippines in the long run.

Clark and Subic were STILL central locations during the Cold War. It didn't need to move, it was further developed. But yes, it was still central to the Philippine government and was a deterrence against communism. :ohno:

And yes. It was still strategically based in Manila, REGARDLESS when it was built. There where many airfields and camps the Americans built during the early 1900s. Even Makati had an airfield which is now part of Ayala Ave.!!!! :ohno:

Only filipinos can solve the problem of filipinos? Well, some of us can't wait forever...

You can wait all you want...... :ohno:


I would not call those temporary shelters or installations in basilan a US base, there are not even more than 3,000 US marines there. They are just there to merely train the Philippine forces on how to tract down and combat terrorists since before hand, these people kidnap foreign nationals left and right with numerous bombing all over the Philippines rendering the Philippine Government almost helpless in combating the Abu Sayaf group whom are all affiliated to Al Quida from it's hostility towards the Philippine Government.

The incident on PAL 747 bound for Tokyo from Cebu was the initial phase for testing a terrorist plots to bomb aircrafts bound to the US. That was where the same technique used by Reid, the shoebomber a British National who planted bomb in his shoe in an attempt to bomb a US passenger Jetliner bound to the US to kill more american. These are all the same operatives run by Al Quaida cell all over the world. And since the southern backdoor of the Philippines is open to it's neighbor, it's easy for these operatives to come in and out freely within mindanao and beyond the Philippine Islands.

^^ yep the U.S. attacked iraq based on wrong information and now it's too late abd yes this was discussed in previous defense thread.

U.S. withdraw and did not rebuild because our politics decided that these bases should go wether or not the mt.pinatubo erupted.

And since also at that time USSR has just recently collapsed ending the coldwar thus the need for U.S. to maintain the base.

But now with the rise of china as a superpower the u.s. might think of re-establishing bases again here in the philippines since philippines is in a very strategic postion and is near the china sea which holds vast amounts of resources specially oil.

Probably not the case to establish a base in the Philippines. There is Korea and Japan, Hawaii is closeby. Technology is far more advanced now than it used to be, for instance, the Stealth bomber can cross across the world from the base here in the midwest where I live in no time and hit it's target down in the middleeast, what more with just China? If building another base in the Philippines is the utmost importance to the US Gov't, it would of long been established by now. Philippines President Arroyo kept an even more closer relationship with the Bush Administration. It would of been easy to start with it with both philippine leader and the US in talks.

The US withdrew from the Philippines 3 years prior to the actual year of expiration of the lease. It was not totally decided on by the Philippine government, it could of been extended at the time for all we know or simply scale down but I doubt if back in those days, the earlier Philippine government would request a full scale pull out of those bases because the lease can provide additional revenue to the Philippine treasury and I'm sure it would be according to the Philippine government terms.

sa #4 lang ba backout na ang kano niyan :D

i think its enough to train our Filipino soldiers to fight terrorism , more on intel trainng and also i suggest the Israeli army are more capable to train us when it comes to fighting terrorists.... Moshe Dayan style!

# 4 - US Military Base to be under Philippine control.

actually since 1979 all the US Military Bases in the Philippines reverted to Phillippine government control, I just re-emphasized it.

Reverting to Philippine Control. In 1979 all bases reverted to Philippine control under an agreement that placed each base under a Philippine Base Commander, created an American facility - a legal term distinct from a base - within the Philippine bases, gave Philippine forces responsibility for perimeter security, and called for a complete review of the MBA every five years.

pls see this web link : http://www.heritage.org/Research/AsiaandthePacific/asb78.cfm

Probably not the case to establish a base in the Philippines. There is Korea and Japan, Hawaii is closeby. Technology is far more advanced now than it used to be, for instance, the Stealth bomber can cross across the world from the base here in the midwest where I live in no time and hit it's target down in the middleeast, what more with just China? If building another base in the Philippines is the utmost importance to the US Gov't, it would of long been established by now. Philippines President Arroyo kept an even more closer relationship with the Bush Administration. It would of been easy to start with it with both philippine leader and the US in talks.

The US withdrew from the Philippines 3 years prior to the actual year of expiration of the lease. It was not totally decided on by the Philippine government, it could of been extended at the time for all we know or simply scale down but I doubt if back in those days, the earlier Philippine government would request a full scale pull out of those bases because the lease can provide additional revenue to the Philippine treasury and I'm sure it would be according to the Philippine government terms.

dude, the issue is not about the airraids or bombing targets in china the issue is the naval control of the china sea in which philippines is the utmost strategic location if they want to have a presence in this area. get it :)

and they don't really need a new base they just need a port in which to dock ships(carriers) and standby their military forces to provide presence in the region.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/base1.jpg


Worldwide reorientation of U.S. military basing: Part II: Central Asia, Southwest Asia, and the Pacific

The first article in this series sketched the outlines of the U.S. military's basing realignment: the shift to rotating forward deployments at austere bases and how that will affect the U.S. presence in Europe and Africa. While the changes there have attracted the most attention, U.S. planners have also been considering moves in Asia and the Pacific, while expanding the bases in Central Asia established since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. The build-up in Djibouti on the Horn of Africa, the removal of U.S. forces from Saudi Arabia, and the shift of facilities in Korea away from demilitarized zone (DMZ), while not part of the grand design, complete the picture of a tectonic shift in worldwide U.S. military policy.


Central Asia: Challenging Russia in its own Backyard

Following the end of the Cold War and the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Russia regarded the five ex-Soviet states of Central Asia as part of its own sphere of influence, and some influential circles in Moscow were extremely unhappy when after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks the United States started establishing bases and negotiating landing rights across the region.

The U.S. airbase in Kyrgyzstan, at the capital Bishkek's international airport, named Manas, has received the most attention, especially after it was unofficially named 'Ganci Air Base' after one of the fire-fighters who fell at the World Trade Center. The base's main role now seems to be supporting the overall air effort, providing a base for air-to-air refuelling tankers, and some attack aircraft. There is at least one other major airbase, at Karshi Khanabad in Uzbekistan. ‘K2,’ as it is nick-named, is a major supply conduit into northern Afghanistan, with a joint service supply organization supporting the U.S. forces in Afghanistan centered in Bagram, outside Kabul. There are also a number of other smaller facilities, alongside numerous landing-clearance agreements. All the other states of Central Asia -- Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, and even avowedly neutral Turkmenistan --have granted overflight rights, allowed fuel supply arrangements to be set up, or granted landing permissions for U.S. military aircraft. Apart from the varied bases and camps in Afghanistan, where the U.S. effort is concentrated in Bagram and Kandahar, two to four bases remain in Pakistan. Pakistani bases were critical for the initial stages of Operation Enduring Freedom, and now the major base at Jacobabad hosts small teams of the CIA, FBI, and Special Operations Forces still engaged in the hunt for Osama bin Laden.

The bases in Central Asia are officially described as being temporary; there only as long as the operations in Afghanistan are necessary. But that same form of words was used to justify the U.S. presence in Saudi Arabia from 1991 to 2003. The United States similarly may have a military presence in the former Soviet states for a long time to come.


The Middle East

In Saudi Arabia, the end of Saddam Hussein’s regime in Iraq offered an opportunity to wind up a U.S. military presence that had become burdensome for both sides. The Saudi government had increasingly resented the U.S.-backed UN sanctions regime on Iraq, and the United States had become unhappy with Saudi cooperation on anti-terrorism efforts “well before” the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.[1] Neither was the U.S. government happy with Saudi refusals since February 1998 to let the U.S. bases there be used for attacks against Iraq. On entering office, the administration of U.S. President George W. Bush wished to restore the pre-1991 status quo; i.e., low-profile mutual commercial interest on the part of two countries not sharing many of the same values.

Thus the last U.S. forces left the remote Prince Sultan Air Base near Al Kharj in September 2003, with the Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AWACS) radar aircraft ending their nearly 20-year deployment there after being first sent to the region in the early 1980s to monitor the Iran-Iraq war.

Djibouti, on the other hand, is a relatively new relationship for the United States. It is a small country sited at a very strategically valuable spot at the bottom of the Red Sea, adjoining Somalia, Ethiopia and Eritrea. Yemen is just across the narrow Bab El Mendeb strait that links the Red Sea with the Gulf of Aden. The major power most interested in the country for decades has been France, which granted the state its independence in 1977 and still maintains more than 3,000, mostly Army, personnel there. But in October 2002, following the September 2001 terrorist attacks, the United States decided to establish a forward base in the Horn of Africa region to attack terrorists operating though-out the sub-region.

Combined Joint Task Force-Horn of Africa was initially established aboard the U.S. Navy command ship Mount Whitney, which reached the Gulf of Aden in November 2002. The United States then established a base at Djibouti's international airport and built it up to a strength of some 2,000, primarily Special Operations Forces operating against terrorist throughout the region. They have been supported by Special Operations helicopters from the U.S. Air Force. Djibouti was, in a way, the prototype for the overall austere basing strategy, with rotated rather than permanently assigned forces, and reflected the U.S. military’s reluctance to spend large sums on troop support facilities.


The Pacific

While the new U.S. basing policy was received with open arms in Eastern Europe among the former Warsaw Pact states, when the United States started exploring the issue informally with its allies in the Pacific, it met a much cooler reception. The need for U.S. bases in the Western Pacific, beyond Hawaii, falls into two categories: bases for troops to operate from within the region, and naval staging posts to support the transit of carrier groups toward the Indian Ocean and Middle East. Inquiries have been made in the previous six months or so with both the Philippine and Australian governments, and been turned down in both cases.

With the withdrawal of permanently stationed U.S. forces from the Philippines in 1992, U.S. forces in Southeast Asia were reduced to a naval logistics headquarters, Task Force 73, and a fighter training support unit in Singapore. But with the development of the new basing strategy in early 2003, the United States tried without success to develop further bases in the region -- although the Philippines has allowed exercises to take place in which U.S. Special Forces deploy to the southern Philippines to assist in countering the long-running communist insurgency. A visiting U.S. National Defense University delegation received a negative answer when they asked about potential reassessment of the position in a meeting with the Philippine Visiting Forces Commission.

Australia would have been an even more attractive proposition from the point of view of supporting Middle East deployments. There are already U.S. two satellite ground stations and a naval communications station in Australia, but no combat forces. The western Australian port of Fremantle has hosted U.S. aircraft carrier group visits numerous times, and the home-porting of a carrier group there would have immensely reduced the U.S. Navy deployment strain. The nearest other carrier base currently, Yokosuka, Japan, is just under twice the distance to the Persian Gulf than Fremantle. However, it is not known what type of facility the Defense Department was seeking from Australia. Preliminary stories in the Washington press stating the United States was interested in bases in Australia led to questions in the Australian press. Finally, in mid-August, Richard Armitage, the visiting U.S. deputy secretary of state, said that no request was to be made, as Australia was not geographically best positioned. While it is likely that there was some consideration of an Australian base, there remains little chance of major U.S. forces being stationed in Australia.

In terms of ground forces, Armitage was virtually correct, and until very recently, there has been no serious consideration of stationing another carrier group, apart from the Kitty Hawk and her group at Yokosuka, anywhere outside the continental United States.

Whether Australia was under consideration as a carrier base or not, the Navy is now reversing that previous thinking and is seeking to station another carrier and its associated strike group further forward in the Western Pacific. While no decision has been made, both Hawaii and Guam are under consideration to move a carrier forward to. Yokosuka is some 3,200 miles from Singapore, where the carrier groups transit the Malacca Strait to enter the Indian Ocean and head toward the Middle East. All the other Pacific coast carriers are based on the U.S. West Coast, about 8,000 or more miles from Singapore. Moving a carrier to Hawaii would chop that distance to just over 6,700 miles, while a Guam site would be just a little more advantageous than Yokosuka, at 2,900 miles. However, the site decision will not be able to made on purely military considerations, as adding 5,000 people to the population of Guam is an entirely different matter from adding those people to the population of Hawaii. It is not known when the final decision will be made, but Hawaii may be in a better position than Guam thanks to the availability of support facilities. One of the deciding factors may be an active airfield to base the carrier's 80-plane air wing while in port; Hawaii may hold the advantage in that respect, having more attractive facilities available.

The final base shift now underway in the Pacific is also not strictly related to the current austere basing proposals, but is a consequence of the unique situation on the Korean Peninsula. The United States has 37,000 troops, including the 2nd Infantry Division, in South Korea to help defend it from the million-man North Korean Armed Forces. The 2nd Infantry Division has been stationed for decades as part of the initial defense lines just south of the fortified border. In mid-2003, the decision to move the division south away from the front lines was announced, partially to remove some of the U.S. 'tripwire' factor that would see America quickly involved in any war on the Peninsula, and partially to make the troops available for other missions in the region, which will help to relieve the stress on the Army. As a first step, troops currently spread along the border area in a number of camps will be concentrated into two major locations, and then all the fighting forces will be relocated south of the Han river, some distance south of the current confrontation line. No timing has been agreed for the move, which will take some years, but the United States will move out from Yongsan headquarters site in central Seoul by 2006.

The grand design behind the austere bases strategy has not been able to be implemented in the Pacific, but U.S. forces there, as well as those in the Middle East and Central Asia, are being re-orientated to better suit them for the challenges ahead. U.S. forces will have to face a period of adaptation if rotationary six-month deployments are to become commonplace far from the troops' homes and loved ones. Recruiting, and especially personnel retention, will suffer. Only time will tell how serious the consequences are and thus how effective the new pattern will be.


---------------------------------------------------------------

[1] International Institute for Strategic Studies, The US-Saudi Relationship – towards greater equilibrium?, Strategic Comments, Vol. 9, No.4, June 2003.


Author(s): Colin Robinson

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http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3738/is_199912/ai_n8875082

Singapore: An important link in U.S. Navy forward presence

Sea Power, Dec 1999 by Prina, L Edgar

From the end of World War II, through the Korean and Vietnam conflicts and Desert Storm in the Persian Gulf, the U.S. Navy maintained a key base in the Philippines, one that played a major role in support of the national strategy aimed at peace and stability in the Western Pacific. But when, in 1992, the Philippine Senate rejected an agreement that would have extended the U.S. stay at the Subic Bay base, the Navy had to move out within three years.

The question then became this: Could the loss of Subic, which had contributed so much to the training and readiness of U.S. forward-deployed forces, be offset by making arrangements with other countries for access to bases within their borders? The answer, of course, has been "not entirely." Subic was special. But after the Navy terminated its presence there in 1992, the United States concluded a series of access agreements and other arrangements with its Southeast Asian friends and allies who have wanted a continued U.S. military presence in the area.

Important among these countries is Singapore, a prosperous island-nation with a population of three million-and a deep harbor. It sits astride the junction of the Pacific and Indian Oceans near the southern tip of the Malay Peninsula. Singapore was the site of a major British Royal Navy base for more than a century-until Imperial Japanese Army forces, led by Gen. Tomoyaki Yamashita, "the Tiger of Malaya," captured it in 1942, in the early days of the war in the Pacific. Singapore became an independent nation within the British Commonwealth in 1964. The majority of its population is ethnic Chinese.

The US policy makers rejected the previous Phil government demand to increase the Base rental and etc, so the Phil Senate abrogated the Base agreements.

Then they hurriedly left the Base just after the Mt. Pinatubo eruption.

Later, a year after their leaving the Phil Base they found that the US will spent more in servicing the US Naval Fleet. They found that the cost of servicing US Navy ships in Malaysia and Singapore is more than 50 times they spent in their Philippine base. A huge base where they can even held their own military exercises.

A year after they set up a forward base in Singapore, a top US Navy commander remarked that they felt the great loss of US Navy Base in the Philippines.

But do the americans even a want permanent base in the philippines?

The cold war is over. The chinese are half-capitalists now.

Subic base was the only base the americans really wanted in the Phils. It was a superb deep water port that was easily defendable. the Davao or Gensan ports are not.

The pact uncle sam now has with the Phil is ideal for them. It gives them emergency access to some of our ports and airfields.

But do the americans even a want permanent base in the philippines?

The cold war is over. The chinese are half-capitalists now.

Subic base was the only base the americans really wanted in the Phils. It was a superb deep water port that was easily defendable. the Davao or Gensan ports are not.

The pact uncle sam now has with the Phil is ideal for them. It gives them emergency access to some of our ports and airfields.

In my view the americans want a permanent base in our country, they just cannot say it openly as they don't want to be rebuff again.

so we just invite them again, with some important conditions to the Base Agreements favorable to our country's sovereignty, defense, and economy.

I would not call those temporary shelters or installations in basilan a US base, there are not even more than 3,000 US marines there. They are just there to merely train the Philippine forces on how to tract down and combat terrorists since before hand, these people kidnap foreign nationals left and right with numerous bombing all over the Philippines rendering the Philippine Government almost helpless in combating the Abu Sayaf group whom are all affiliated to Al Quida from it's hostility towards the Philippine Government.

Keep in mind. I meant TEMPORARY in the LITERAL sense. Because eventually when the Philippines can get back on it's feet again, those U.S. bases WILL close. If you look at the European theater, many U.S. bases have closed there because the shift is now in the Middle East, with bases in Qatar, Bahrain, Afghanistan, Oman, etc. I was deployed to 3 of those bases, so I see the shift in alignment and strategy.

I wouldn't say the U.S. bases there are "MERELY to train" the Philippine forces. They would also be there to have a SHOW OF FORCE and as a deterent for any future major escalations should they occur by insurgents. They would also provide jobs for locals and pour in some revenue to the Philippine economy.

Seems like people here have anti-American resentments yet want the benefits ONLY of a U.S. base in the Philippines, if any.

That's the problem I personally see here, a HALF-HALF attititude. I think if managed and administered properly, it would be a more of a WIN-WIN situation for both the Philippines and the U.S., with more benefits to the filipinos.....

Just because the Arab drove the plane toward the Twin Tower, they became the enemy of the United States, and automatically they are the enemy of the world. And virtually every Muslim are being branded as terrorist.

Well, it's pretty hard NOT to discriminate a large group of people when a few of them in that group commit MAJOR HEINIOUS INTERNATIONAL CRIMES EVERY YEAR!!!

Your thinking reminds me of arguments here in the states against RACIAL/ETHNIC profiling. It's also a psychology and statistical issue.

If a certain group/affiliation of people commit major certain crimes over and over again, you can't help but be cautious and take preventive measures.

You can argue many people commit crimes, but an organized network (like Al-Qaeda) who take EXTREME CALCULATED measures who kill by the HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS (like the Twin Towers) should be dealt with accordingly.

I don't think EVERY muslim is branded as terrorist, but it's the terrorists fault for those negative stereotypes. They don't care that their actions are hurting the general muslim community. I totally disagree with your viewpoint that it seems to be our negligence in branding everyone as terrorists. I see many muslims here in the states who enjoy their freedom just like everyone else. And if any of them should commit terror, then they should be dealt with accordingly, just like everyone else....

^^ It's not useful if they will have a permanent base here. They would rather have the military exercises held every now and then.

IMHO, the exchange of information and knowledge done through the military exercises is helpful in our fight against terror. In as much as terrorists have their own linkages internationally, we cannot oppose the fact that we have to gain more knowledge in combat and military exercises that U.S. can teach us.

If you read mindanao history our brother muslims was here long before us . they fought against the spaniards , americans and the japanese , and they are threatened by christians who are dominating the politcal and economic landscape.
quoting your "this abu sayaf is not true to their ideology" that's why i said they are band of scalawags and small time bandits who are just for the money , the true muslims are those peace loving who are "learned" who fight there war thru writings .

I quoted Igacis bec it's ridiculous putting a US base just for the sake of fighting this scalawags,,, putting a base is just putting target for the terrorists .

If you really want Filipinos not to fight each other pls. don't make Mindanao the scapegoat making the "woes of the Phils" . of anything goes bad its bec of mindanao ... the real problems are our socio-economic woes, centric governtment and greedy politicians

IMO, you really UNDERESTIMATE the insurgency problem in Mindanao.

They are NOT small-time bandits JUST FOR THE MONEY. They have kidnapped and killed tourists/people FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD!!! Their extreme religious views and ties to Al-Qaeda go BEYOND "just for the money"!!! :ohno:

You are right, the muslims where in the southern archipelago long before the Spaniards even came. But that's a poor excuse for the problems that continue down in the A.R.M.M. and the constant battles preventing our nation, the Philippines, from gaining progress and reaching it's true potential.

Why? Because the A.R.M.M. is an ISLAMIC-supported government, with goals of SHARIA (thanks to the Abu-Sayef).

The A.R.M.M. is supposed to be "AUTONOMOUS" yet it receives 98% of it's operating revenues from the national government!!! (read wikipedia).

That is a JOKE!!! Why call yourself AUTONOMOUS if you can't even take care of yourself! It is also one of the most impoverished areas in the Philippines, which is really sad. I think this is due to both corruption at the local and national level (POOR FILIPINO LEADERS!!!)

But I believe filipinos are industrious and can get back on their feet. It doesn't matter if they need to ask help again with foreign assistance or not. The most important thing is for filipinos to start making a DIFFERENCE for themselves. And as long as a few bad apples keep ruining for eveyone EVERY SINGLE YEAR, something has to be done about it!!! Even if it means help and assistance....

I see your point dinabaw...the problem is that filipinos ALWAYS are in constant internal struggle with themselves. You really think only filipinos can still help themselves? Yes they can, but we need real leaders who are not afraid of criticism from the masses and who can ASK for help without losing PRIDE!!!

I think ALL of the Philippines problems are interwined and related in one way or another. So the FOCUS should be to separate the issues and tackle each issue accordingly. And IMO, U.S. bases will HELP, not HURT, the Philippines...

^^ It's not useful if they will have a permanent base here. They would rather have the military exercises held every now and then.

IMHO, the exchange of information and knowledge done through the military exercises is helpful in our fight against terror. In as much as terrorists have their own linkages internationally, we cannot oppose the fact that we have to gain more knowledge in combat and military exercises that U.S. can teach us.

True. But it seems like it's taking really long for the Philipine Defense Forces to get rid of the insurgency problem. I think part of the problem lies in political corruption and the economic poverty levels in the various regions.

I am just hoping that the economic progress we are slowly gaining will help in contributing to the quality of life for the masses. In turn, violence and crime will lessen, although not disappear...

A U.S. base in the southern Philippines would provide local job revenues, allow a platform to effectively fight the insurgents, and impose a MAJOR deterent against Islamic rule in our country...

Joint exercises are good, but all this in-house FILIPINOS-ONLY fighting IMO will only continue to LINGER ON and CONTINUE YEAR AFTER YEAR.

I agree with dinabaw in the sense that filipinos should take care of their own problems....but how long do we still want to continue waiting? :ohno:

Look at our current economic progress. If it weren't for GMA and her good fiscal management from foreign/international companies/governments, this country wouldn't be progressing the way it is now. Even the OFWs are remitting their money back to the Philippines, and unfortunately, this isn't even money generated in the Philippines!!!

So I think international influences are helping the Philippines alot more than filipinos want to admit. And now, I think a U.S. base would continue in that help, especially in security and fiscal revenue. When the Philippines can get back on it's feet again, the base can be closed (like Clark & Subic).

IMO, you really UNDERESTIMATE the insurgency problem in Mindanao.

They are NOT small-time bandits JUST FOR THE MONEY. They have kidnapped and killed tourists/people FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD!!! Their extreme religious views and ties to Al-Qaeda go BEYOND "just for the money"!!! :ohno:

You are right, the muslims where in the southern archipelago long before the Spaniards even came. But that's a poor excuse for the problems that continue down in the A.R.M.M. and the constant battles preventing our nation, the Philippines, from gaining progress and reaching it's true potential.

Why? Because the A.R.M.M. is an ISLAMIC-supported government, with goals of SHARIA (thanks to the Abu-Sayef).

The A.R.M.M. is supposed to be "AUTONOMOUS" yet it receives 98% of it's operating revenues from the national government!!! (read wikipedia).

That is a JOKE!!! Why call yourself AUTONOMOUS if you can't even take care of yourself! It is also one of the most impoverished areas in the Philippines, which is really sad. I think this is due to both corruption at the local and national level (POOR FILIPINO LEADERS!!!)

But I believe filipinos are industrious and can get back on their feet. It doesn't matter if they need to ask help again with foreign assistance or not. The most important thing is for filipinos to start making a DIFFERENCE for themselves. And as long as a few bad apples keep ruining for eveyone EVERY SINGLE YEAR, something has to be done about it!!! Even if it means help and assistance....

I see your point dinabaw...the problem is that filipinos ALWAYS are in constant internal struggle with themselves. You really think only filipinos can still help themselves? Yes they can, but we need real leaders who are not afraid of criticism from the masses and who can ASK for help without losing PRIDE!!!

I think ALL of the Philippines problems are interwined and related in one way or another. So the FOCUS should be to separate the issues and tackle each issue accordingly. And IMO, U.S. bases will HELP, not HURT, the Philippines...

let's count the recent insurgencies in Mindanao , let's start w/ the Sipadan incident what did the abu sayaf get? it's MONEY! the Burnhams ..its MONEY and Bossi ? it's all MONEY! so don't tell me this group have "religious" ideology they are just a bunch of hoodlums .Can you point to me a sinlge kidnapping by the abu sayafs that didn't involved money? or any kidnapping asking ideological demand.



do you think only the ARMM have a problem..... well you never mentioned Coldillera Autonomous Region they still get assistance from the government ,comparing to ARMM . ARMM have more good roads and structures than Cordillera how about our corrupt Governors , Mayors and Congressmen who pockets money intended for poor people, you never seen that ?Sakit nating mga Filipino eto hindi lang sa kakaunti . you like to train your eyes in Mindanao when prob arises .well maybe you can also train your eyes in other places in the Phils like Samar and Leyte which is 2 of the poorest provinces and infested w/ communists insurgencies.

I agree w/ you we as Filipino FOCUS and tackle issues accordingly. But i am not for US bases.

What's wrong w/ some people here ? most countries in this world want total independence ,stand in their own feet ,but here we are we like uncle sam to do this and to do that ..para tayong nakakapit pa rin sa nanay natin...hindi naman tayo ka gipit tulad ng ibang nation sa Africa ..it's so totally diff. giving aids than putting US bases here.. did Thailand ask the US to help them in their insurgency prob? kakahiya naman yan ... kaya tinatawanan tayo ng Asean neighbors naka kapit pa tayo sa nanay natin !

:ohno: okey we put the US forward bases in Kalayaan Islands Group in the south China sea, Cagayan de Sulu ) near Sandakan Sabah, and Davao Gulf, with the below conditions :

1. pay rental for the base, same amount as what the US pay for their bases in Turkey, Portugal, etc.
2. the rental to pay in cash and not half in scrapped military planes, naval vesels, etc. Or they can
pay with the latest / modern type of military planes, naval vessels and other war machines.
3. the military base agreement should be pattern like their military bases agreement with Japan,
South Korea, and other European countries especially for crimes committed inside or outside their
bases.
4. the Base should be under the control of Philippine government.
5. No Nuclear weapons or chemicals harmful to the environment could be stored in the base.
6. Pinoy citizens who can afford to travel to US mainland and territories should be exempted from
Visa requirement to enter the US, just like the citizens of Western European and Australians.
7. US military personnels charge of committing crime inside or outside their bases whether off-duty
or not, must be tried in a Philippine Court in MetroManila and should be detained in a Philippine Jail.
8. US serviceman convicted of raping a Filipina should be castrated in Rizal Park in Manila before
detaining in our jails. :lol:
9. After the period of 20 years the US Military base should be turn-over to our government with all
equipments to be turn-over to our government. And then they can establish another base in other
parts of our country as designed by the government.

the above were just some important points to be included in the Base Agreement.

:

Hey, nice thoughtful list you created there...!

Here are my thoughts...

1. Sounds fair. And this time, the money should be used FOR THE NATION, not abused like what Marcos did to Clark and Subic during his reign.

2. Rental in CASH? Can we at least have a RECEIPT? HAHA....Scrapped planes? It is the filipinos fault if they had accepted scrapped planes in the past. Filipinos don't have to accept anything. As far as modern-equipment goes, that is on a case-by-case basis. Not all U.S. military modern-equipment can be released to foreign nations.

3. I agree... :)

4. I sort of agree. But the Philippines government should also have limits to that control. If you don't want U.S. servicemen abusing filipinos, the U.S. will also want to insure Philippine political corruption will not abuse the U.S. base...

5. I agree... :)

6. That is an immigration issue, not a military one. Here at the immigration port in Los Angeles, the Philippines is near the top of the watch list due to statistical data of past filipinos who have VIOLATED their visa requirements. Call it TNT if you will, always in hiding. I know some of them here personally. One of them is my friend. Citizens in Europe or Austriala don't come here illegally as other countries, hence they have lesser restrictions.

7. I agree with OFF-BASE, OFF-DUTY. For ON/OFF-BASE ON-DUTY, that should depend on a CASE-BY-CASE basis. What if it was a FILIPINO at fault??? Should a U.S. court conduct the trial?

8. Funny! (Except for the serviceman!) What if a filipina is at fault? Not all filipinas are saints... :ohno:

9. 20 years? Why not 21? or 19? The Philippine government should set a minimum time limit. After that, then it's up to both countries if they want to extend or not. GIVE ALL EQUIPMENT BACK? You are sounding like filipinos want nothing but HAND-OUTS. Sure, we can give you back the buildings, the runways, and all the fixtures included. Do you also want the last remaining toilet paper, forks, and spoons also??? :nuts: :ohno:

let's count the recent insurgencies in Mindanao , let's start w/ the Sipadan incident what did the abu sayaf get? it's MONEY! the Burnhams ..its MONEY and Bossi ? it's all MONEY! so don't tell me this group have "religious" ideology they are just a bunch of hoodlums .Can you point to me a sinlge kidnapping by the abu sayafs that didn't involved money? or any kidnapping asking ideological demand.



do you think only the ARMM have a problem..... well you never mentioned Coldillera Autonomous Region they still get assistance from the government ,comparing to ARMM . ARMM have more good roads and structures than Cordillera how about our corrupt Governors , Mayors and Congressmen who pockets money intended for poor people, you never seen that ?Sakit nating mga Filipino eto hindi lang sa kakaunti . you like to train your eyes in Mindanao when prob arises .well maybe you can also train your eyes in other places in the Phils like Samar and Leyte which is 2 of the poorest provinces and infested w/ communists insurgencies.

I agree w/ you we as Filipino FOCUS and tackle issues accordingly. But i am not for US bases.

True, insurgents always ask for money. But they use their religious idealogy as their means. And this religious idealogy pervades into INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM.

We need to train our eyes TO ALL PROBLEMS in the Philippines, including the insurgency problem in Mindanao..

My mom grew up in Marcos territory, up in La Union. She would also tell me stories of the communists and NPAs in the Cordilleras region. But they are not of the extreme calculated measures you see in Mindanao. How many Cordilleras insurgents you see behead tourists or blow up things like you do in Mindanao. And if they do, then they're good at getting away from the media then unlike the southern insurgents...

I respect your opinion of not wanting bases here...I'm just voicing my own opinions and keeping a lively debate here.. :)

And I am serious also about filipinos helping filipinos..it's just that we also have to be realistic with ourselves, and our LIMITS. I'm sure filipino can solve their own problems, but we still need to keep LEARNING and DEVELOPING our nation. Even if it means a U.S. base....

Why does philippines still battling with communist insurgency NPA although the problem should be solved years ago. So called democratic country, why cant we convince our people to throw the ideology because we're one of the most westernized country (or culture) in Asia, yet the problem this communist give us never receded, and they kill people too...why point fingers in Mindanao alone? Just because they're Muslim? or you're just being stereotype to all terrorising problems that arise lately? or you just parrot every muslim/terrorism catchwords because it's fashionable to do so.

i agree with the economics problem but i dont agree with your so called successful good fiscal management by GMA. Deficit managed to be reduced not because efficiencies of government finances but rather by decreasing interest rate and stronger peso. what will happen if peso devalued suddenly and interest rate surge by 3-4%? and why stronger peso? because peso and other currencies are moving in the same direction as a result of weakened greenback.

if people see the country is moving forward, i'd say yes, but vietnam will overtake us in 10 years. and you shall not see Philippines regaining their so called second best country after japan if corruption still rampant, depending on foreign assistance in every infrastructure projects, and keep sending the best brain overseas to gain more short term solution in terms of money and losing their best ideas and work ethics which clearly benefit their host country.

we'll be forever stay as a sick man of asia. weak defense, weak economy, and weak politics.

Why does philippines still battling with communist insurgency NPA although the problem should be solved years ago. So called democratic country, why cant we convince our people to throw the ideology because we're one of the most westernized country (or culture) in Asia, yet the problem this communist give us never receded, and they kill people too...why point fingers in Mindanao alone? Just because they're Muslim? or you're just being stereotype to all terrorising problems that arise lately? or you just parrot every muslim/terrorism catchwords because it's fashionable to do so.

i agree with the economics problem but i dont agree with your so called successful good fiscal management by GMA. Deficit managed to be reduced not because efficiencies of government finances but rather by decreasing interest rate and stronger peso. what will happen if peso devalued suddenly and interest rate surge by 3-4%? and why stronger peso? because peso and other currencies are moving in the same direction as a result of weakened greenback.

if people see the country is moving forward, i'd say yes, but vietnam will overtake us in 10 years. and you shall not see Philippines regaining their so called second best country after japan if corruption still rampant, depending on foreign assistance in every infrastructure projects, and keep sending the best brain overseas to gain more short term solution in terms of money and losing their best ideas and work ethics which clearly benefit their host country.

we'll be forever stay as a sick man of asia. weak defense, weak economy, and weak politics.

I agree with some of your sayings, but I don't think the Philippines is hopeless. FAR from that!!!

And yes, GMA does have good fiscal management, especially when you compare her with her predecessors. All those financial indicators you throw do make some sense, but the peso is also based on demand!!! Filipino DEMAND :colgate:

OFWs make maraming pera overseas. But they always send money back to the good old Philippines. Now they are buying houses, buying furniture to fill those houses, using electricity/water to run those houses, etc. etc. So you see? The demand for Philippine products and currency is real. Now infrastructure is developing. Infrastrucure doesn't just disappear if times go bad. They are LONG-TERM....

Vietnam is still a COMMUNIST country. They are still years behind in infrastructural development and in key areas. True, growth is high, but they are just beginning in the globalization arena...

What's wrong w/ some people here ? most countries in this world want total independence ,stand in their own feet ,but here we are we like uncle sam to do this and to do that ..para tayong nakakapit pa rin sa nanay natin...hindi naman tayo ka gipit tulad ng ibang nation sa Africa ..it's so totally diff. giving aids than putting US bases here.. did Thailand ask the US to help them in their insurgency prob? kakahiya naman yan ... kaya tinatawanan tayo ng Asean neighbors naka kapit pa tayo sa nanay natin !

No country has to accept Uncle Sam's aid. They ALL have accepted help from their own free will.

And I have never seen the U.S. attack a country for rejecting aid from the U.S.

Countries accept aid from U.S. because they REALLY NEED THE HELP!!!

As a matter of fact, IMO alot of them are the REAL GREEDY ones because their own corruption has given them their own problems, now they just want the freebie handouts without really helping themselves.

The U.S. has given Thailand and Indonesia financial assistance. But I really don't know if they are really using that assistance to really help themselves or not.

:ohno:

Hey, nice thoughtful list you created there...!

Here are my thoughts...

1. Sounds fair. And this time, the money should be used FOR THE NATION, not abused like what Marcos did to Clark and Subic during his reign.

2. Rental in CASH? Can we at least have a RECEIPT? HAHA....Scrapped planes? It is the filipinos fault if they had accepted scrapped planes in the past. Filipinos don't have to accept anything. As far as modern-equipment goes, that is on a case-by-case basis. Not all U.S. military modern-equipment can be released to foreign nations.

3. I agree... :)

4. I sort of agree. But the Philippines government should also have limits to that control. If you don't want U.S. servicemen abusing filipinos, the U.S. will also want to insure Philippine political corruption will not abuse the U.S. base...

5. I agree... :)

6. That is an immigration issue, not a military one. Here at the immigration port in Los Angeles, the Philippines is near the top of the watch list due to statistical data of past filipinos who have VIOLATED their visa requirements. Call it TNT if you will, always in hiding. I know some of them here personally. One of them is my friend. Citizens in Europe or Austriala don't come here illegally as other countries, hence they have lesser restrictions.

7. I agree with OFF-BASE, OFF-DUTY. For ON/OFF-BASE ON-DUTY, that should depend on a CASE-BY-CASE basis. What if it was a FILIPINO at fault??? Should a U.S. court conduct the trial?

8. Funny! (Except for the serviceman!) What if a filipina is at fault? Not all filipinas are saints... :ohno:

9. 20 years? Why not 21? or 19? The Philippine government should set a minimum time limit. After that, then it's up to both countries if they want to extend or not. GIVE ALL EQUIPMENT BACK? You are sounding like filipinos want nothing but HAND-OUTS. Sure, we can give you back the buildings, the runways, and all the fixtures included. Do you also want the last remaining toilet paper, forks, and spoons also??? :nuts: :ohno:




# 1 and # 2. Cash rental - I think the money should be paid directly to National Treasury.

# 7 - If the Filipino worker at the base fault is administrative, then it is up to his employer (US DOD)
to decide, if it is a crime then since if the Base is under Philippine sovereingty then the case is
under Philippine court.

# 8 - If the Pinay is at fault, only the Philippine Court can judge it. As you know even those GRO,
bar girl, prostitutes, etc were human being and is also covered by law from the crime of rape.

# 9 - pls note that when they left Subic, the US govt really transported to Oakland Ca. even those
office tables, chairs. and perhaps even their toilet papers. They hired some commercial ships
just to transport those things from Subic to Bay Area Ca..... :lol:

For what reasons they took all back ? just to spite us ? when in fact for nearly a century they
have a free use of the Base and only in the 70s they paid rentals which is peanuts compared
to what the US govt is paying to Turkey and Portugal for their bases there.

and half of that payment were in kind .... scrapped or mothballed Naval vessels and planes, etc.

# 1 and # 2. Cash rental - I think the money should be paid directly to National Treasury.

# 7 - If the Filipino worker at the base fault is administrative, then it is up to his employer (US DOD)
to decide, if it is a crime then since if the Base is under Philippine sovereingty then the case is
under Philippine court.

# 8 - If the Pinay is at fault, only the Philippine Court can judge it. As you know even those GRO,
bar girl, prostitutes, etc were human being and is also covered by law from the crime of rape.

# 9 - pls note that when they left Subic, the US govt really transported to Oakland Ca. even those
office tables, chairs. and perhaps even their toilet papers. They hired some commercial ships
just to transport those things from Subic to Bay Area Ca..... :lol:

For what reasons they took all back ? just to spite us ? when in fact for nearly a century they
have a free use of the Base and only in the 70s they paid rentals which is peanuts compared
to what the US govt is paying to Turkey and Portugal for their bases there.

I see. Ok...Good points there...but really, they (U.S.) showed that much resentment to the filipinos when they left by taking everything? IMO, that would also reflect the resentment the U.S. felt from filipinos after years of working with them. All of a sudden, the Philippine government refuses to renew the lease, so BYE BYE...

Maybe that's why they took everything. I really don't know...

The rent is probably cheaper in the Philippines because that is what Marcos had agreed with the U.S. during his rule. Maybe it was more but Marcos pocketed the difference. It's interesting that the bases closed a few years later after he was kicked out through EDSA. Call it people power if you will, but I really feel Marcos backed down when he knew the U.S. would not back him up.

Well, didn't the Philippines take those scraped and moth-balled pieces of junk? I wouldn't have. But unfortunately, even after years of receiving millions of dollars, that's all the Philippine military had. That's why, Philippine leadership is SO IMPORTANT. Yet, Marcos and hundrends of other corrupt politicians continue to bring this country down.

If we build a U.S. base now, all rental income should go straight to the NATIONAL TREASURY, as you say. There should be 2 watchdog groups (with no interest to each other) to oversee financial accountability. One should be a Philippine agency, and the other a U.S. agency based in the Philippines who should also have filipino employees.

If we have another Daniel Smith case, then maybe you are right, Philippine courts should have a part in trial. But just remember, Philippine justice system is WAY DIFFERENT sometimes compared to American justice system. Look at the Julia Campbell peaceworker case. What happened to her killer? Have we heard of him lately? Do you see a bunch of Americans on CNN burning the Philippine flag or stomping on GMA's picture? And still I haven't heard about the killer? Can someone update us on this? And yet, filipinos love to hate U.S. GIs for raping filipina women. Who wouldn't? But both parties were at a BAR, and both were DRINKING! I really think Daniel Smith committed rape myself, but not a first degree rape like first degree murder. He was not 100% guilty. There were enough circumstances to make me feel 40 years in prison was way too much.

If you don't believe me, look at Campbell's killer. Where is he now? What sentence did he actually get? I know GMA banned the death penalty, but the victim (in this case, an American) is dead......

Video of Bossi photographs - pls click below :

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/latest/8878/Italian-envoy-not-convinced-of-Bossi-photographs

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/50164/SunStar-Bossi-abductors-eyeing-transfer-to-Basilan

SunStar: Bossi abductors eyeing transfer to Basilan
07/09/2007 | 07:04 AM

Email this | Email the Editor | Print | Digg this | Add to del.icio.us The abductors of Italian priest Giancarlo Bossi are reportedly planning to move him to Basilan province, according to information intercepted by the Philippine Marines.

Sun-Star Zamboanga (www.sunstar.com.ph) reported Monday that Lt. Col. Felix Almadrones, head of the Marine Battalion Landing Team 8, said they are now verifying this information.

“We have deployed personnel to determine the veracity of the information we gathered," Almadrones said.

He also said he has ordered personnel to track down a group of armed men who reportedly landed on the shores of nearby Basilan province.

Citing the information reaching him, he said the armed men proceeded to Akbar town.

Earlier reports indicated Bossi’s abductors wanted to turn over their captive to the custody of al Qaeda-linked Abu Sayyaf bandits.

Bossi, 57, of the Pontificio Istituto Missioni Estere (Pime) and parish priest of Payao town in Zamboanga Sibugay, was seized last June 10.

Col. Ramiro Alivio, chief of the 1st Marine Brigade, said they also received reports that Abu Sayyaf leader Isnilon Hapilon has returned to his native place in Basilan.

Hapilon is the remaining top Abu Sayyaf leader wanted by the United States government for the kidnapping and killing of American hostages. - GMANews.TV

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http://www.gmanews.tv/story/50163/(Update)-Ex-Basilan-mayor-is-source-of-Bossi-photos

Home > Nation > Top Stories (Update) Ex-Basilan mayor is source of Bossi photos
07/09/2007 | 12:12 AM

Email this | Email the Editor | Print | Digg this | Add to del.icio.us ZAMBOANGA CITY -

A former town mayor of Basilan has been tagged as the source of three photographs of a kidnapped Italian Catholic priest that surfaced on Thursday, the military said Sunday.

The military and police said rogue members of the Moro Islamic Liberation Front headed by Akiddin Abdusallam are believed holding the 57-year old priest Giancarlo Bossi who was kidnapped June 10 in Zamboanga Sibugay province.

The group is also believed to have ties with the Abu Sayyaf.

Also Sunday, National Security Adviser and Acting Defense Secretary Norberto Gonzales said that the Philippine government has told former Italian Parliament Member Margherita Boniver not to be too optimistic about the case of Bossi due to the involvement of the Abu Sayyaf Group.

Gonzales said this is the reason Boniver was unenthusiastic about the initial set of pictures received by Father Bossi’s friend as she believes those are not enough proof that the priest is alive.

“We told her not to be too optimistic as we are dealing with the Abu Sayyaf. What we are saying is it won't be easy or quick given the kind of people that we are dealing with. This is what we told her," Gonzales said.

Military sources said the former town mayor was the source of the photos, which were sent through cell phone to Spanish priest Angel Calvo, Bossi's friend, in Zamboanga City.

It was unknown how the unnamed former mayor was able to get the photos.

Authorities were investigating the authenticity of the photos, all showing Bossi sitting on a boulder surrounded by young trees. One photograph showed Bossi holding a transistor radio.

It was unknown when the photos were taken, but Bossi’s group, the Rome-based Pontificio Instituto Missioni Estere (PIME) confirmed the photos.

"There are now pictures of the captivity of Father Giancarlo Bossi," said a PIME blog dedicated to Bossi.

"Taken in an undisclosed place where there are trees of a young forest. He is wearing the same clothes he wore on the day of his kidnapping. The cinelas (slippers) are red and new."

"There is [a pair of] rubber shoes, too, left on the ground. Containers of water suggest that they are hiking up in some higher places, may be mountains, where the air is much thin and cooler. Other things are inside these pictures, but we do not care! We will never put them in this Blog. They make us sad. We like other pictures; those of the day of his liberation," it said.

PIME said it has no contact with the kidnappers.

The MILF, which is monitoring the situation, said Bossi's captors were demanding "tens of millions" of pesos in ransom.

Bossi is the third Italian priest kidnapped in the past year in the southern Philippines.

Rogue MILF rebels kidnapped Father Luciano Benedetti, 52, in Zamboanga del Norte province in 1998 and held for nearly 10 weeks until he was freed in exchange for a huge government ransom.

In 2001, renegade MILF rebels and members of the bandit group called Pentagon Gang also snatched Father Giuseppe Pierantoni as the 44-year-old priest from Bologna said Mass in the parish church of Dimataling town in Zamboanga del Sur.

The priest was freed after six months in captivity in exchange for an unspecified ransom, but he claimed to have escaped from his kidnappers. - Al Jacinto

SunStar: Bossi abductors eyeing transfer to Basilan
07/09/2007 | 07:04 AM

The abductors of Italian priest Giancarlo Bossi are reportedly planning to move him to Basilan province, according to information intercepted by the Philippine Marines.

Sun-Star Zamboanga (www.sunstar.com.ph) reported Monday that Lt. Col. Felix Almadrones, head of the Marine Battalion Landing Team 8, said they are now verifying this information.



^^ That is VERY BAD PRACTICE for the Philippine Defense Forces to update the media on the whereabouts of the kidnapped Italian priest.

Intelligence and SITUATIONAL AWARENESS are very CRITCIAL in these kinds of scenarios.

If Bossi's whereabouts where intercepted by Philippine Marines..keep it CONFIDENTIAL for now!!!! :ohno:

Yet, now we know almost as much as the AFP on the whereabouts of this kidnapped person! :ohno:

Why doesn't the Philippine military practice proper intelligence methods and COMMUNICATIONS SECURITY????

Now I hope many of us will realize why filipinos take such a long time in helping ourselves.

The Philippine AFP should NOT disclose any sort of operations or intel that might endanger the lives of Philippine military personnel or the kidnapped person himself... :ohno:

Doesn't the Philippine military have a protocol or SOP (standard operating procedure) in regards to media relations and discussions about military operations???

If they don't have one, please...they should make one!!!!

I will agree with dinabaw that the U.S. shouldn't be here, only when the Philippine AFP proves it can manage itself with proper military leadership in tackling these kinds of issues....

]True, insurgents always ask for money. But they use their religious idealogy as their means. And this religious idealogy pervades into INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM.[/B]

We need to train our eyes TO ALL PROBLEMS in the Philippines, including the insurgency problem in Mindanao..

My mom grew up in Marcos territory, up in La Union. She would also tell me stories of the communists and NPAs in the Cordilleras region. But they are not of the extreme calculated measures you see in Mindanao. How many Cordilleras insurgents you see behead tourists or blow up things like you do in Mindanao. And if they do, then they're good at getting away from the media then unlike the southern insurgents...

I respect your opinion of not wanting bases here...I'm just voicing my own opinions and keeping a lively debate here.. :)

And I am serious also about filipinos helping filipinos..it's just that we also have to be realistic with ourselves, and our LIMITS. I'm sure filipino can solve their own problems, but we still need to keep LEARNING and DEVELOPING our nation. Even if it means a U.S. base....

Never heard Al quidas demand for money or the indosesian extremists .. thet's why the abu sayaffs and jemah islamiah had a falling out realtionship bec they have diff. ideology .

Using their ideology or not it's the same they are extorsionists ...glad your npa insurgents in Cordillera are much tamer . did you read recently unearthed mass graves in Samar? or burning villages for not paying revolutionary tax ? i dunno what's your idea of the abu's beheading and the NPA's killing and torturing its all they same they are all MURDERERS.. ... heard of their propoganda ? NPA's are all over the country unlike the abu's they are only contained in some islands .
I think there is still prejudice when it comes to Mindanao ...if their are cheats in election blame it to mindanao , if economy is down blame to the " chaos in mindanao" when something negative happened in Mindanao the media salivating for news ..jockeying for the first plane out to mindanao but a heinous crimes like the recent killing of his daughter for no reason at all oh it's unpalatable news :ohno: ..well we
never heard praises that we provide a BIG chunk of agriculture and natural resources. :ohno:


If your impatient for a slow and painful resolve of this insurgents and your living in the US how much we who are living here, then maybe blame our forefathers for clamoring for independence maybe we are now a state of the USA and not run to them when the tough gets going ... that's what independence is we need to resolve on our own , on our terms ..you will not cry and run to your mother bec you are bullied....you fight !

No country has to accept Uncle Sam's aid. They ALL have accepted help from their own free will.

And I have never seen the U.S. attack a country for rejecting aid from the U.S.

Countries accept aid from U.S. because they REALLY NEED THE HELP!!!

As a matter of fact, IMO alot of them are the REAL GREEDY ones because their own corruption has given them their own problems, now they just want the freebie handouts without really helping themselves.

The U.S. has given Thailand and Indonesia financial assistance. But I really don't know if they are really using that assistance to really help themselves or not.


but Thailand and Indonesia never let a foreign army fight for them as i said US aids are diff from having a US miltary base / manpower.

I see. Ok...Good points there...but really, they (U.S.) showed that much resentment to the filipinos when they left by taking everything? IMO, that would also reflect the resentment the U.S. felt from filipinos after years of working with them. All of a sudden, the Philippine government refuses to renew the lease, so BYE BYE...

Maybe that's why they took everything. I really don't know...

The rent is probably cheaper in the Philippines because that is what Marcos had agreed with the U.S. during his rule. Maybe it was more but Marcos pocketed the difference. It's interesting that the bases closed a few years later after he was kicked out through EDSA. Call it people power if you will, but I really feel Marcos backed down when he knew the U.S. would not back him up.

Well, didn't the Philippines take those scraped and moth-balled pieces of junk? I wouldn't have. But unfortunately, even after years of receiving millions of dollars, that's all the Philippine military had. That's why, Philippine leadership is SO IMPORTANT. Yet, Marcos and hundrends of other corrupt politicians continue to bring this country down.

If we build a U.S. base now, all rental income should go straight to the NATIONAL TREASURY, as you say. There should be 2 watchdog groups (with no interest to each other) to oversee financial accountability. One should be a Philippine agency, and the other a U.S. agency based in the Philippines who should also have filipino employees.

If we have another Daniel Smith case, then maybe you are right, Philippine courts should have a part in trial. But just remember, Philippine justice system is WAY DIFFERENT sometimes compared to American justice system. Look at the Julia Campbell peaceworker case. What happened to her killer? Have we heard of him lately? Do you see a bunch of Americans on CNN burning the Philippine flag or stomping on GMA's picture? And still I haven't heard about the killer? Can someone update us on this? And yet, filipinos love to hate U.S. GIs for raping filipina women. Who wouldn't? But both parties were at a BAR, and both were DRINKING! I really think Daniel Smith committed rape myself, but not a first degree rape like first degree murder. He was not 100% guilty. There were enough circumstances to make me feel 40 years in prison was way too much.

If you don't believe me, look at Campbell's killer. Where is he now? What sentence did he actually get? I know GMA banned the death penalty, but the victim (in this case, an American) is dead......


First let me inform you that justice grinds so slowly in the Philippines, you see Imelda Marcos plunder case is still not reseolved after 21 years, most of other Filipinos who had minor crimes were languishing in the crowded jail for many years and their case was not even heard yet in the Court.

Actually Daniel Smith is lucky that he was confined only in the US Embassy.

About Julia Campbell, I am really sad that an American lady Peace Corp volunteer was killed for no apparent reason or no reasons at all. Indeed the perpetrator must be sentenced quickly by the court. However our justice system handed to us by the Americans has many technicalities which a good criminal lawyer can use.

below is the latest developments in Julia Campbell murder case as of
June 20, 2007

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/47422/Confessed-Campbell-killer-pleads-not-guilty


Confessed Campbell killer pleads not guilty
06/20/2007 | 04:31 PM

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Barely two months after he confessed to the crime, the suspect in the killing of US Peace Corps volunteer Julia Campbell last March made a turnaround and entered a not-guilty plea in court.

Radio station dzRH reported that carpenter Juan Duntugan, 25, claimed he admitted to the crime earlier this year just so his family will not be dragged into the mess.

It said Duntugan also claimed he was "confused" at the time he confessed to the crime.

Duntugan's claim prompted Lagawe, Ifugao Judge Esther Flor to set the next hearing for July 23.

Last April, Duntugan admitted killing Campbell by accident after she bumped into him in Banaue town in Ifugao. He thought she was an enemy, and hit her with a stone.

The government filed murder charges against Duntugan. -GMANews.TV

imelda should be prosecuted and thrown into jail for billion of dollars siphoned public funds, and yet, people are still crawling in her case, and left her untouched, with 10 bodyguards on each shopping trip.

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/latest/8905/Saksi-CBCP-wants-to-block-Anti-Terrorism-Law

Never heard Al quidas demand for money or the indosesian extremists .. thet's why the abu sayaffs and jemah islamiah had a falling out realtionship bec they have diff. ideology .

Using their ideology or not it's the same they are extorsionists ...glad your npa insurgents in Cordillera are much tamer . did you read recently unearthed mass graves in Samar? or burning villages for not paying revolutionary tax ? i dunno what's your idea of the abu's beheading and the NPA's killing and torturing its all they same they are all MURDERERS.. ... heard of their propoganda ? NPA's are all over the country unlike the abu's they are only contained in some islands .
I think there is still prejudice when it comes to Mindanao ...if their are cheats in election blame it to mindanao , if economy is down blame to the " chaos in mindanao" when something negative happened in Mindanao the media salivating for news ..jockeying for the first plane out to mindanao but a heinous crimes like the recent killing of his daughter for no reason at all oh it's unpalatable news :ohno: ..well we
never heard praises that we provide a BIG chunk of agriculture and natural resources. :ohno:


If your impatient for a slow and painful resolve of this insurgents and your living in the US how much we who are living here, then maybe blame our forefathers for clamoring for independence maybe we are now a state of the USA and not run to them when the tough gets going ... that's what independence is we need to resolve on our own , on our terms ..you will not cry and run to your mother bec you are bullied....you fight !

So you think abu-sayef is only contained in some islands? :ohno: Wrong. Their actions have included bombing links in metro-Manila and even collusion with various criminals AROUND the nation. They even beheaded a hispanic years ago that lived here in the Corona, California area near my residence in America. Have you ever been here to the states dinabaw?

Statement of Senator Dianne Feinstein on the Claim
by Philippine Extremist Group
That They Have Killed Corona Man
June 12, 2001

"I am deeply distressed by the claim made by the Philippine extremist group, Abu Sayyaf, that they have killed one of their American hostages, Guillermo Sobero of Corona, California. I strongly condemn their actions, and I call on Abu Sayyaf to release all hostages immediately and unconditionally.

I remain hopeful that Mr. Sobero is still alive, and I have contacted the State Department and asked them for any additional information that they may have about Mr. Sobero’s condition.

It is my sincerest hope that he will be released unharmed and can return to his family and loved ones in the United States. I understand the deep pain they must feel right now, and my thoughts and prayers go to them.”

My staff has been in contact with the family, and I want them to know that I will do anything I can to help. This is a chilling indictment of the Muslim separatist cause.



So you say they are contained in some islands only? :ohno: Perhaps in a general sense, you are correct. But the Abu-Sayef commits crimes at a higher EXPOSED intensity that one cannot help but be resentful for these kinds of actions. Their actions go BEYOND the Philippine borders, all the way across the Pacific Ocean and the world. Can you imagine the reputation of filipinos they tarnish all over the world? This really hurts our kababayans and OFWs... :ohno:

At least the NPAs limit themselves to their specific regions when asking for revolutionary taxes, although they are widespread. You think just because I am here in America (even though I'm full-blooded filipino, go to the Philippines every year, and my parents live there) that I don't have the knowledge or insight of filipino pain and suffering that you go through?

I am friend's with my sister's old supervisor at Glendale Memorial Hospital here in Los Angeles (both are nurses, like most filipinas here. :)). When I helped her buy her house here (I'm a loan officer), she didn't like dealing with real estate. She told me her story of her house up near Nueva Vizcaya where NPA insurgents destroyed her business equipment when she didn't want to pay them their "taxes". It has caused her alot of stress, and it's sad because she is a nurse administrator herself. But they did leave her alone when she provided some food and other little things for them. If it was Abu-Sayef, it would have been much more GRAVE in my opinion. They have calculated agendas that, in general, go beyond the limits of today's NPAs (generally-speaking only).

You think just because she is in America now our homeland (the Philippines) doesn't affect her or me?

You seem to feel that everyone is picking on Mindanao. I hope you understand also that all this ATTENTION of Mindanao has also given Mindanao lots of assistance and help.

Germany is the Philippines’ third largest development partner after Japan and the United States.

Since 1961, the Philippines has benefited from about 552.27 million euros in financial cooperation and 249.5 million euros in technical commitments. German assistance is focused primarily in the Visayas and Mindanao areas.

^^ This little piece of an article from the Manila Times is one of HUNDREDS that reflect the millions of pesos in aid and foreign assistance to Mindanao. This includes the United States!!! I can provide many more links to Mindanao aid from foreigners, but I think you get my point.

And here you are complaining that everyone is picking on Mindanao and that the U.S. should leave, and this and that... :ohno: No one is perfect, not even the United States Of America. But Mindanao is still developing and will get better if you get a bigger picture of the development process and the "scalawags" that need to be dealt with SWIFTLY, now...not later. Everyday they linger on, they are slowing down the development in the region.

I just find your opinions disheartening sometimes.... :(

But peace to you, my kababayan........

^^ ^^ ^^

If you will research in the Internet, you will find that the American CIA is partly responsible for the creation of Al Qaeda. It was created by the Arabs recruited by the CIA to fight in Afghanistan during the Soviet rule of that country.

The founder of Abu Sayaff Janjalani and others were trained in Afghanistan.

There was an allegations from some sources in the Internet that the Abu Sayaff was created by a group in the military with the original purpose of infiltrating the rebel group MNLF.

But just like with all others secret military project most of the time "napapalpak din", remember Jabidah and the Red Scorpion Group ? The Red Scorpion Group in the 1980s was apparently established to infiltrate the NPA, then the RSG became a kidnapping group later that operates in Luzon.

The above were just allegations posted in the Internet by some sources. :)

So you think abu-sayef is only contained in some islands? :ohno: Wrong. Their actions have included bombing links in metro-Manila and even collusion with various criminals AROUND the nation. They even beheaded a hispanic years ago that lived here in the Corona, California area near my residence in America. Have you ever been here to the states dinabaw?




So you say they are contained in some islands only? :ohno: Perhaps in a general sense, you are correct. But the Abu-Sayef commits crimes at a higher EXPOSED intensity that one cannot help but be resentful for these kinds of actions. Their actions go BEYOND the Philippine borders, all the way across the Pacific Ocean and the world. Can you imagine the reputation of filipinos they tarnish all over the world? This really hurts our kababayans and OFWs... :ohno:

At least the NPAs limit themselves to their specific regions when asking for revolutionary taxes, although they are widespread. You think just because I am here in America (even though I'm full-blooded filipino, go to the Philippines every year, and my parents live there) that I don't have the knowledge or insight of filipino pain and suffering that you go through?

I am friend's with my sister's old supervisor at Glendale Memorial Hospital here in Los Angeles (both are nurses, like most filipinas here. :)). When I helped her buy her house here (I'm a loan officer), she didn't like dealing with real estate. She told me her story of her house up near Nueva Vizcaya where NPA insurgents destroyed her business equipment when she didn't want to pay them their "taxes". It has caused her alot of stress, and it's sad because she is a nurse administrator herself. But they did leave her alone when she provided some food and other little things for them. If it was Abu-Sayef, it would have been much more GRAVE in my opinion. They have calculated agendas that, in general, go beyond the limits of today's NPAs (generally-speaking only).

You think just because she is in America now our homeland (the Philippines) doesn't affect her or me?

You seem to feel that everyone is picking on Mindanao. I hope you understand also that all this ATTENTION of Mindanao has also given Mindanao lots of assistance and help.



^^ This little piece of an article from the Manila Times is one of HUNDREDS that reflect the millions of pesos in aid and foreign assistance to Mindanao. This includes the United States!!! I can provide many more links to Mindanao aid from foreigners, but I think you get my point.

And here you are complaining that everyone is picking on Mindanao and that the U.S. should leave, and this and that... :ohno: No one is perfect, not even the United States Of America. But Mindanao is still developing and will get better if you get a bigger picture of the development process and the "scalawags" that need to be dealt with SWIFTLY, now...not later. Everyday they linger on, they are slowing down the development in the region.

I just find your opinions disheartening sometimes.... :(

But peace to you, my kababayan........



I think you have no idea about bandit groups in Mindanao , they are not only abu sayafs , theri is a a group called pentagon, and some emerging extortion groups and etc. sometimes they mix or join other groups . Let me remind you Jemah Islamiah is a diff. animal than the Abu's i dunno where you get the info they are operating "international" (the abu's).
If you really read the news lately the abus' are now a "headless chicken" bec Janjalani and his Luitenants(originals) are DEAD, their is no ideology to grasp , the remnants are all scalawags same as the scalawags groups in Luzon , the waray waray etc and don't tell me Luzon bandits are not on beheading and torturing or never chopped the bodies of Japanese or American kidnapped victims .The problem when the torutring is done in Mindanao it's "NEWS" .
The abu's have no capability of making bombs now it was "the" Jemmah Islamiah when they are still connected w/ them .
Tell me what specific region that the NPAs never collect revolutionary tax ? w/ no more money coming fro Red China & their chief dancing the night away in Netherlands , they need the money more .


as i said and still believed their is prejudice about mindanao , i am not only saying it from people abroad but also in Luzon .The FOCUS when it comes to negativity is more in Mindanao. If you can live TRULY in mindanao all those misconceptions and threats is not as BIG as some percieved.

by Igacis
Statement of Senator Dianne Feinstein on the Claim
by Philippine Extremist Group
That They Have Killed Corona Man
June 12, 2001

"I am deeply distressed by the claim made by the Philippine extremist group, Abu Sayyaf, that they have killed one of their American hostages, Guillermo Sobero of Corona, California. I strongly condemn their actions, and I call on Abu Sayyaf to release all hostages immediately and unconditionally.

I remain hopeful that Mr. Sobero is still alive, and I have contacted the State Department and asked them for any additional information that they may have about Mr. Sobero’s condition.

It is my sincerest hope that he will be released unharmed and can return to his family and loved ones in the United States. I understand the deep pain they must feel right now, and my thoughts and prayers go to them.”

My staff has been in contact with the family, and I want them to know that I will do anything I can to help. This is a chilling indictment of the Muslim separatist cause.

see ... well tell me the reaction of this US senator w/ Miss Cambell death who was senselessly & brutally killed in Codilleras ?

NONE

If you really read the news lately the abus' are now a "headless chicken" bec Janjalani and his Luitenants(originals) are DEAD, their is no ideology to grasp , the remnants are all scalawags same as the scalawags groups in Luzon , the waray waray etc and don't tell me Luzon bandits are not on beheading and torturing or never chopped the bodies of Japanese or American kidnapped victims .The problem when the torutring is done in Mindanao it's "NEWS" .

It is the belief of muslim zelaots that a beheaded person cannot go to heaven, hence their predeliction to behead their enemies.

It is also the belief of muslim zealots that it is not a sin to rape a woman who is not of their faith, hence their habit of repeatedly raping their women hostages.

imelda should be shot with the rest of her family . i have not problem with that . i just can't believe dumb ass people in her province still voted her son and daughter into office. those people must love abuse.

dude, the issue is not about the airraids or bombing targets in china the issue is the naval control of the china sea in which philippines is the utmost strategic location if they want to have a presence in this area. get it :)

and they don't really need a new base they just need a port in which to dock ships(carriers) and standby their military forces to provide presence in the region.

Yes, Japan and Korean US bases can do that for the US government, with Hawaii and Guam as back up for it....

In my view the americans want a permanent base in our country, they just cannot say it openly as they don't want to be rebuff again.

so we just invite them again, with some important conditions to the Base Agreements favorable to our country's sovereignty, defense, and economy.

I'd say the US Government would think it would be nice to have another base anywhere in the Philippines but it's not a "must" because of the presence of US bases in Japan and Korea which in turn close to Hawaii and Japan. I'm pretty sure that if the US do want another base in the Philippines, the US would offer a higher lease price on these bases and follow what is duly constitutional in favor to the Philippine government but "beneficial" to the American interest.

^^ ^^ ^^

If you will research in the Internet, you will find that the American CIA is partly responsible for the creation of Al Qaeda. It was created by the Arabs recruited by the CIA to fight in Afghanistan during the Soviet rule of that country.

The founder of Abu Sayaff Janjalani and others were trained in Afghanistan.

There was an allegations from some sources in the Internet that the Abu Sayaff was created by a group in the military with the original purpose of infiltrating the rebel group MNLF.

But just like with all others secret military project most of the time "napapalpak din", remember Jabidah and the Red Scorpion Group ? The Red Scorpion Group in the 1980s was apparently established to infiltrate the NPA, then the RSG became a kidnapping group later that operates in Luzon.

The above were just allegations posted in the Internet by some sources. :)

You can't rely solely on the internet.. It can be misleading and you don't know if these articles are 100% accurate.

It is the belief of muslim zelaots that a beheaded person cannot go to heaven, hence their predeliction to behead their enemies.

It is also the belief of muslim zealots that it is not a sin to rape a woman who is not of their faith, hence their habit of repeatedly raping their women hostages.


^^

the above was a very prejudiced statement and seems to be an indictment of the muslim religion and not only the muslim zealots.

you should post a copy of the article or books from where you get that very biased statement. otherwise you are destroying all the hard works of the government and civic societies in trying to reconcile and making good relations between the Filipino of christian and muslim faith, after more than a centuries of prejudiced and bigotry by our colonial masters and by some of our fellow filipinos
of christian faith.

the other reasons for the war in mindanao was owing to other Filipinos religious bigotry and their centuries-old prejudiced view of our brother Muslim in Mindanao.

you seem to be another salman rushdie :lol:


Wasalaam aleikum.

^^ I got that info years ago from reader's digest.

religous bigot ? I've been spending 1 week each month in the muslim part of mindanao for the past year.

^^ I got that info years ago from reader's digest.

religous bigot ? I've been spending 1 week each month in the muslim part of mindanao for the past year.

i am just curious, what are you doing there ?

It is the belief of muslim zelaots that a beheaded person cannot go to heaven, hence their predeliction to behead their enemies.

It is also the belief of muslim zealots that it is not a sin to rape a woman who is not of their faith, hence their habit of repeatedly raping their women hostages.

^^
you should post a copy of the article or books from where you get that very biased statement.

you seem to be another salman rushdie :lol:


I got that info from the "reader's digest" condensed book of Echo Chen "Stories of the Sahara". Echo Chen was a taiwanese writer married to a spanish man. she wrote vividly about her stay in spanish sahara during the violent days of the birth of the new nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanmao_(author)

Salman Rushdie was recently knighted. what gives ?

i am just curious, what are you doing there ?


business

Only thing i can say about the abu-sayyaf is they are a very serious terrorist group that western powers are so concern of and they should not be taken lightly and they are threat mainly to our tourism economy and industry.

Their loose attachment to idealogy of islamic fundamentalism is what makes them even more dangerous than their fundamentalist counterparts because it makes them very unpredictable in their strategies.

Yes, Japan and Korean US bases can do that for the US government, with Hawaii and Guam as back up for it....

no dude they can't do that, they need a base or port for their naval forces to provide close naval presence to the rich disputed resources of the china sea and the philippines not korea, japan or guam or hawaii is suitable for that...

japan and korea amd hawaii and guam as back up?? loooll!!!! these bases are no where near the china sea which makes them useless...

^^ After the closure of US bases in the Philippines in 1992, the United States has benefited from a series of access agreements and other arrangements with Southeast Asian partners that have supported continued U.S. military engagement. These arrangements, including port calls, repair facilities, training ranges and logistics support, have become increasingly important to the US overseas presence. For example, Singapore announced in early 1998 that its Changi Naval Station, which became operational in the year 2000, would be available to U.S. naval combatants and include a pier which can accommodate American aircraft carriers. In January 1998, the United States and the Philippines negotiated a Visiting Forces Agreement that, when ratified, will permit routine combined exercises and training, and ship visits. Thailand remains an important refueling and transit point for possible operations to neighboring trouble spots, including the Arabian Gulf. Australia has long provided key access to facilities for U.S. unilateral and combined exercises.



There is really no need for the US to open new military bases overseas.
In the next global war, distance is no longer a factor. It would be measured in how fast a nation can mobilized an attack or defensive group or just push the red button and hell would break loose. The 7th fleet is usually just around the corner of the Pacific ocean if any minor conflict would accur.

It is the belief of muslim zelaots that a beheaded person cannot go to heaven, hence their predeliction to behead their enemies.

It is also the belief of muslim zealots that it is not a sin to rape a woman who is not of their faith, hence their habit of repeatedly raping their women hostages.

you should be more careful with your words. I'm a muslim and i can confirm none of your allegations above are true.

Rape is a sin, no matter if it's to muslim or non muslim, and non muslims rape too...

Yes, Japan and Korean US bases can do that for the US government, with Hawaii and Guam as back up for it....

You are right....

If needed, Japan and Korea U.S. bases can be used for logistical support.....

you should be more careful with your words. I'm a muslim and i can confirm none of your allegations above are true.

Rape is a sin, no matter if it's to muslim or non muslim, and non muslims rape too...

^^ gen1 must have read Bracia Burnham's "In the Presence of my Enemies" because I kinda read that part somewhere in that book. The rape of infidels and killing non muslims as being "legal" to a jihadist. Though derived from true story, the book kinda placed Islam in a brutal limemight. Because the Islamic philosopies mentioned in that book came from a mouth of a fundamentalist. But gen1 did differentiated "zealots"(fundamentalist) right? rather than just plain generalized word "muslims".

^^ After the closure of US bases in the Philippines in 1992, the United States has benefited from a series of access agreements and other arrangements with Southeast Asian partners that have supported continued U.S. military engagement. These arrangements, including port calls, repair facilities, training ranges and logistics support, have become increasingly important to the US overseas presence. For example, Singapore announced in early 1998 that its Changi Naval Station, which became operational in the year 2000, would be available to U.S. naval combatants and include a pier which can accommodate American aircraft carriers. In January 1998, the United States and the Philippines negotiated a Visiting Forces Agreement that, when ratified, will permit routine combined exercises and training, and ship visits. Thailand remains an important refueling and transit point for possible operations to neighboring trouble spots, including the Arabian Gulf. Australia has long provided key access to facilities for U.S. unilateral and combined exercises.



There is really no need for the US to open new military bases overseas.
In the next global war, distance is no longer a factor. It would be measured in how fast a nation can mobilized an attack or defensive group or just push the red button and hell would break loose. The 7th fleet is usually just around the corner of the Pacific ocean if any minor conflict would accur.

You are absolutely correct!

The U.S. military has one of the best logistics in the world. Even though China might have a bigger military in terms of personnel, the U.S. has a 24/7 on-call/on-demand military force that can mobilize in days, not weeks or months.

What is important though, is airspace rights/access for American jets to fly over certain countries enroute to enemy targets. This became a problem in 2003 during the US/Iraq war for Turkey, who feared reprisals from Iraqi Kurds near the Turkey/Iraqi border. The Kurds, who were oppressed under the Sadam Hussein regime, were feared by the Turkish government to continue their separatist cause in southeastern Turkey.

Bottomline...the U.S. getting rid of Sadam Hussein would empower the Kurds to seek autonomy from Turkey.

Hence, Turkey imposed a NO-FLY zone of their own against the U.S. military.

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=45317

U.S. foreign policy for military operations, IMO, has been to limit implementation of physical bases on a "as-needed" basis based on current world threats and intensity. This includes not only U.S. interests, but security and safety for neutral and ally countries in keeping stability within the region.

If you look at the middle east, where the "hotspots" of todays wars have deep roots, most of them are now in Arab countries. This includes Al-Seeb AB in Oman, Al-Uedid AB in Qatar, Bahrain, U.A.E., Bagram AB in Afghanistan, etc. These places hardly existed or weren't even developed as they were 10 or 20 years ago. And even the European theater has seen a decrease of U.S. military personnel due to base-realignment, downsizing, and financial constraints.

I strongly believe that a U.S. base is needed in southern Mindanao as a deterrent for extreme Islamic Fundamentalism. Once the threat in the A.R.M.M is subdued and sustained to lower levels, then the Americans can leave after their lease is up. In the mean time, it would provide economic revenue for the surrounding local areas. Who knows, that base may also became a major economic hub and industrial zone in the future like Clark & Subic. :)

If people here still disagree about a U.S. base in the Philippines, I will only agree with them when we all know that the Philippine AFP can handle and lead their people EFFECTIVELY. Right now, it isn't doing that. What military in their right mind would compromise COM/SEC (communications/security) by letting the media know what messages they intercepted from the enemy??? See TheAvenger's article...POST #296 :ohno:

you should be more careful with your words. I'm a muslim and i can confirm none of your allegations above are true.

Rape is a sin, no matter if it's to muslim or non muslim, and non muslims rape too...

Hey ssangyongs, RavenCute is right....

gen1 did DIFFERENTIATE the certain type of muslims who believe in what he said.

Also, some muslims believe in the extreme form of "jihad" and of paradise along with 70 virgins. I don't think you believe that, di ba?

Just because gen1 said that doesn't mean that I believe you are a muslim zealot. I have friends here who are muslim and I don't believe they are terrorists...and yes, I am U.S. military.....

Please, don't create unnecessary drama and make something a PERSONAL attack when it isn't.

If you feel muslims are being discriminated, just say so and why. If someone has a counter-argument, please provide your own reasonable counter-argument. We will listen..promise.. :)

I think you have no idea about bandit groups in Mindanao , they are not only abu sayafs , theri is a a group called pentagon, and some emerging extortion groups and etc. sometimes they mix or join other groups . Let me remind you Jemah Islamiah is a diff. animal than the Abu's i dunno where you get the info they are operating "international" (the abu's).
If you really read the news lately the abus' are now a "headless chicken" bec Janjalani and his Luitenants(originals) are DEAD, their is no ideology to grasp , the remnants are all scalawags same as the scalawags groups in Luzon , the waray waray etc and don't tell me Luzon bandits are not on beheading and torturing or never chopped the bodies of Japanese or American kidnapped victims .The problem when the torutring is done in Mindanao it's "NEWS" .
The abu's have no capability of making bombs now it was "the" Jemmah Islamiah when they are still connected w/ them .
Tell me what specific region that the NPAs never collect revolutionary tax ? w/ no more money coming fro Red China & their chief dancing the night away in Netherlands , they need the money more .


as i said and still believed their is prejudice about mindanao , i am not only saying it from people abroad but also in Luzon .The FOCUS when it comes to negativity is more in Mindanao. If you can live TRULY in mindanao all those misconceptions and threats is not as BIG as some percieved.

Those bandit groups you mention can be rid of if regional poverty levels were higher and the effectiveness of the AFP & PNP were better. I see your point about the waray-waray and Luzon "bandits", but Mindanao insurgency has created a "STIGMA" of their own. So IMO, you or I can't really do anything about that. You should be blaming those "bandits" in Mindanao for this. If we don't hear about the "northern" tortures, then something is going on there... Either they have kept it a low-profile or they don't do it with the intensity and extremism that they do in Mindanao. Your Mindanao "bandits" should similarly follow their northern brothers then if you don't want Mindanao to have the negative spotlight in the news. That's also the problem, the public media...but that's another thread....

I agree with your last statement. I've been to Zamboanga, Basilan, and General Santos and have seen the area. There is still much poverty, but in general, most of the filipinos were very friendly and peaceful (like all filipinos :))

The problem is, dinabaw, certain select groups of "scalawags" have a major impact on the LONG-TERM REGIONAL SECURITY in Mindanao. They cannot be classified as "bandits" or under the general criminal category. Their presence has major influence that you or I don't clearly see with our own eyes. But their influence and residual threats have prevented development from national/foreign support for DECADES. Why do you think the area is SO POOR!!!

Sure, you can blame the elitists from Manila or Luzon, but IMO they are just a PART of it. The other PARTS are down there in Mindanao. Like what we agreed upon earlier, the root problems need to be focused on and tackled accordingly. This includes focusing on Mindanao and ending the threats there so businesses can flourish without fear of extremists/kidnappings/murders, etc. etc.

hi all

i just read this article on www.atimes.com and i want to post it here , as an example for the the Philippines military, the unit prices for the fighter jets seem to be affordable, president arroyo's government allocated around 5 billion pesos for buying new attack helicopter, with that amount they could get around 6 to 10 of these chinese-pakistan fighter jets (i did some research on the internet, and they seem to be good fighter jets, the JF-17 model), with the budget the afp got for modernisation, they could buy up to 30 to 50 fighter jets over a period of 5 to 7 years. and the philippine air force would have the equipment they need, problem solved!

now let us take a look at the philippine navy, the chinese are building 4 frigates for the pakistanis, at an amount of 600 million us-dollar. i think over the same period, lets say 5 to seven years, the philippine navy could also afford this. and the philippine navy problem is solved.

i saw the model of that chinese-pakistan frigate and i must say, they look sophisticated and good.

here is a model of the frigates we are talking about:


[url]http://www.strategycenter.net/imgLib/20041101_12F22P.jpg

and here a model of the fighter jet:

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/1354/jf17pakistan33zn.jpg

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/5513/jf17pakistan23dp.jpg

and this one:


http://images.google.ch/imgres?imgurl=http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/images/JF-17_taxi.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/fc-1-pics.htm&h=663&w=1300&sz=125&hl=de&start=1&um=1&tbnid=0n5-qm4Ibyau-M:&tbnh=77&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3DJF-17%2B%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dde%26sa%3DG


here the article:


China rises to Pakistan's defense
By Syed Fazl-e-Haider

QUETTA, Pakistan - Islamabad and Beijing have pledged to expand and consolidate bilateral ties in the area of defense.

In a meeting last week with visiting Chinese Admiral Hu Yanlin, political commissar of the Chinese navy, Pakistani Defense Minister Rao Sikandar Iqbal thanked the Chinese government for its continued support of the modernization plans of Pakistan's armed forces. The two sides underlined the need for long-term



sustainable relationship in defense.

Chinese assistance to Pakistan has been instrumental in strategic projects such as the JF-17 aircraft, F22 frigates and al-Khalid tank. Pakistan-China defense relations cover the defense industry and joint defense production and development. The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) plans to buy new Chinese-made J-10 fighters in big numbers. Last year, the signing of the US$600 million frigate deal was considered a milestone in the defense cooperation of Pakistan and China.

Islamabad has increased the defense budget for the current financial year to Rs275 billion ($4.5 billion) from Rs250.2 billion last year.

Separate allocations have been made for the purchase of JF-17 aircraft from China. Announcing a 10% increase in the defense budget, the government vowed to have credible deterrence and invincible defense to ensure protection of the country's ideology and economic independence.

China is Pakistan's main supplier of military equipment, and it has been strengthening the defense industry of the South Asian country.

This March, two jointly developed JF-17s arrived in Pakistan for further tests and flight evaluation. The flight evaluation to be conducted by PAF will be a great deal of help in improving the performance of aircraft, facilitating the maturity of JF-17s and making the aircraft more competitive and reliable. The JF-17 had its first public appearance in Islamabad on March 23, during a National Day Joint Services Parade flyover.

The two sides tested the first prototype in August 2003, while another test flight was made in Chengdu, Sichuan province, the following month. The flight tests of prototype aircraft in China have been moving ahead smoothly. Last year, President General Pervez Musharraf inspected the JF-17 factory and assembly line in Sichuan. With its advanced design, state-of-the-art manufacturing technology, Mach 1.6 speed, advanced avionics and excellent handling capabilities, the JF-17 is on a par with the world's most advanced light fighter jets.

The production was completed in a record period of four years. China National Aviation Corp officially signed the development contract in 1999. The project initially suffered a setback due to imposition of economic sanctions against Islamabad in 1999 after 1998 nuclear tests. The sanctions hindered acquisition of avionics and weaponry for the aircraft.

The FC-1 fighter was also developed under a joint venture of China and Pakistan by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corp. It is a lightweight multi-purpose fighter based on a MiG-33 design and powered by a single Klimov RD-93 turbofan engine. It is capable of beyond-visual-range air-to-air combat, as well as laser-guided weapons delivery. Though primarily developed for Pakistan, it provides a low-cost replacement for many developing countries that are currently operating the aging MiG-21/F-7 and Northrop F-5 series.

FC-1 was originally known as the Super-7, which was the first fighter jet completely designed and manufactured by China. It was China's new-generation fighter that improved systems for attacking ground targets. Its advanced radar positioning and operating systems gave the plane greater flexibility and better close-range maneuverability than previous designs. Development of the Super-7 upgrade was slowed with the end of US technical assistance in1989.

China has developed the FC-1 as a substitute for the Super-7. The $500 million FC-1 project has support from the China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corp, mainly for export to replace the 120 F-7M/P fighters currently in service. The deal to manufacture 150 FC-1 jets was struck when Musharraf visited China in 1998.

In April 2005, the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex formally opened its JF-17 production facility at its Kamra factory. Production started that year, and the first four locally built aircraft were handed over to the PAF last December. The PAC plans to deliver four more aircraft this year. Serial production is planned to start this year, turning out 20 aircraft annually.

New frigates too
In May, Pakistan signed a $600 million defense deal with China, which includes construction of four F22P frigates for the Pakistan Navy, upgrading of the Karachi dockyard, and transfer of technology for indigenous production of a modern surface fleet. Under the deal, three frigates will be built in Shanghai, and the fourth will be constructed at Karachi dockyard, which will also be upgraded to enable Pakistan to build its own frigates later.

The first frigate is to be delivered to Pakistan next year and the other three by 2013 along with transfer of technology. The frigates will be equipped with helicopters specially designed for surface-to-surface and surface-to-air missiles along with numerous associated self-defense systems. This was the first time that the two navies reached a high-level collaboration to augment the surface fleet.

The Pakistani opposition parties accuse the government of fudging figures and understating defense-related allocations. They claim that the defense budget is actually far more than the Rs275 billion shown in official documents. The opposition parties call the ever-increasing military allocations without parliamentary oversight unjustified. They stress the need for carrying out an audit of defense expenditures by Parliament to examine whether and how much of the military budget has been used to enhance defense capability.

Syed Fazl-e-Haider, sfazlehaider05@yahoo.com, is a Quetta-based development analyst. He is the author of six books, including The Economic Development of Balochistan, published in May 2004.

You are right....

If needed, Japan and Korea U.S. bases can be used for logistical support.....

u seem to forget the issue is the china sea and distance these bases have from the china sea and SE asia... the hawaii are guam bases are nothing compared to having a military presence here in the philippines.

And the issues are not air control but the control of the china sea and gaining a foothold on the china sea and let me tell u china is not like iraq where u can just bomb easy targets uncontested through your aircraft carriers and long range b2 bombers.. china has very advanced sophisticated weapons systems that can counter whatever the U.S. can muster and the china's navy growing and growing. Not to mention they got home base advantage over the U.S. when total war breaks out.

So gaining a firm base in the philippines and shifting the military presence from the guam and hawaii bases to the philippines i think is more sensible for the U.S. And using only the hawaii and guam base as a supply bridge and or a kind of alamo base when retreating.

dudes,times are changing and strategies are ever changing no base can be a significant base and remain a permanent base forever... and old insignificant U.S. bases here in our soil can be brought back to life in no time when the tensions and atmosphere changes and remember china will be very unpredictable in the future...

and having their bases here will also be for the benefit of our country and always remember the parcel islands the spratlys and the scarborough we have a major share over those terrirtories and it's resources and china wants it badly.

deleted

the development of the stryker light armored vehicle (lav) and the formation of troops around this lav, the "stryker brigades" is in line with the US military's move towards troops that can be transported through the air with their C-17s and C-5s.

the threat of a conventional, slugging-out war with another major country has so diminished their concentration has shifted to these light infantry and light armor armed units (suitable for low-intensity conflicts and chasing extremists around the globe).

however it must be recalled that the united states was heavily involved (funding and design-wise) in the construction of the General Santos City sea port and International Airport.

It was initially thought that they would be establishing a permanent base there. Now I think it is in line with the current treaty we have with the US. the Gensan port and airport can and will probably be used by the US in an emergency.

So i think that if the US decides (and the phil senate agrees to) a permanent base, it is likely to be in gensan.

the development of the stryker light armored vehicle (lav) and the formation of troops around this lav, the "stryker brigades" is in line with the US military's move towards troops that can be transported through the air with their C-17s and C-5s.

the threat of a conventional, slugging-out war with another major country has so diminished their concentration has shifted to these light infantry and light armor armed units (suitable for low-intensity conflicts and chasing extremists around the globe).

however it must be recalled that the united states was heavily involved (funding and design-wise) in the construction of the General Santos City sea port and International Airport.

It was initially thought that they would be establishing a permanent base there. Now I think it is in line with the current treaty we have with the US. the Gensan port and airport can and will probably be used by the US in an emergency.

So i think that if the US decides (and the phil senate agrees to) a permanent base, it is likely to be in gensan.

many years ago there was a gossip that the US have built a secret, hardened-airport runway somewhere in central mindanao to be used later as forward base incase of war. any update or confirmation about that. I have seen personnally the new gensan airport and i am not sure if that is the one mentioned.

^^ the mysterious Gensan airport w/ a 3,000 m plus runway(the 2nd longest in PI next to Ninoy international) ,who do you think will land there ?commercial boieng 747's?

Islamic militants behead 4 Marines

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/regions/view_article.php?article_id=75990


The encounter between about 50 Marines and some 300 Abu Sayyaf members erupted at around 10 a.m. Tuesday and stretched until 7 p.m. of the same day.

The troops were on their way back to base after acting on a reported sighting of kidnapped Italian priest Giancarlo Bossi, reportedly being held by the Abu Sayyaf in the area.

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/50520/General-Hapilon-avenged-sons-death-beheaded-Marines


General: Hapilon avenged son's death, beheaded Marines
07/11/2007 | 11:06 AM

Email this | Email the Editor | Print | Digg this | Add to del.icio.us The son of Abu Sayyaf leader Isnilon Hapilon was killed in the clash between the Marines and a "lawless" armed group in Basilan last Wednesday, prompting its enraged members to behead four servicemen.

This was the information gathered by Marine Major Gen. Ben Mohammad Dolorfino, military chief for Metro Manila and part of the government team negotiating a peace treaty with the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF).

"There were reports that the son of Abu Sayyaf leader Isnilon Hapilon were among the fatalities. He reportedly suffered a gunshot wound to his mouth," Dolorfino said in Filipino during an interview on dzMM radio.

"They got angry, that's why they decapitated the Marines," he added.

The four were deemed missing in action after the military retreated from the encounter. Their bodies were found early morning Thursday at Al-Barka town.

Dolorfino said their heads have already been recovered.

A lost command of the MILF reportedly joined the Abu Sayyaf in staging the attack against military men tracking kidnapped Italian priest Giancarlo Bossi in Tipo-Tipo town.

"There is no other group in Mindanao that beheads its victims except for the Abu Sayyaf," Dolorfino added.

Hapilon is said to be the chief of the Abu Sayyaf faction in Basilan.

For his part, Marines spokesman Lieutenant Col. Ariel Caculitan said the attack may not have been launched by the Abu Sayyaf alone.

"They are not all Abu Sayyaf members, they might have dragged other armed groups in the area into the fighting ... Humaba na yon (the call became longer) and that led them into participating in the encounter," Caculitan said. - GMANews.TV

Video of 4 Marines decapitated. just double cick the below web link:

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/8972/4-sa-15-sundalo-na-napatay-sa-ambush-pinugutan!

^^ ^^ :bash: :bash: :bash:

... surround the whole island with navy, evacuate the civilians ... then napalm bomb the whole island ... cancer na to! kailngan ng chemo theraphy!

^^

What happened to the joint training between the Philippines and the Australian special force? When would the Philippine Senate approve this joint training?

^^ It's really disgusting to hear such news. Beheading a person is such an injustice to humanity, for me. Even if they are rebels and an enemy of another gorup, I don't think it is appropriate that they have to do such acts to them.

I hope these groups will be dissolved. If they can do such to military men, how much more for the civilians? I'd like to think the civilians are really threatened.

the mysterious Gensan airport w/ a 3,000 m plus runway(the 2nd longest in PI next to Ninoy international) ,who do you think will land there ?commercial boieng 747's?

^^ The runway at General Santos isn't the second longest in the country. It's the third. :yes:

Ranking of Runways at Major Philippine Airport in Terms of Length:
1. 06/24 (Ninoy Aquino International Airport) 3,737 m
2. 04L/22R (Mactan-Cebu Internationa Airport) 3,300 m
3. 17/35 (General Santos International Airport) 3,227 m
4. 02L/20R (Diosdado-Macapagal International Airport) 3,200 m (tie)
4. 02R/20L (Diosdado-Macapagal International Airport) 3,200 m (tie)

I'm in favor of the proactive stance of the military in the fight against communist insurgency. Instead of just killing and getting killed in the mountains running after the rebels, the military has been fighting insurgency through medical missions, infrastructure projects and lectures to educate the people regarding the CPP's deceptions. These civil-military operations have endeared the soldiers to the urban poor communities in Metro Manila, who have asked for their return.

This proactive measure will help prevent the loss of many lives in the communist insurgency, as it nips recruitment in the bud by showing the people that unity and cooperation, and not conflict, is the answer to the country's problems.

Army redeploying troops to Metro slums
By Jaime Laude
Wednesday, July 11, 2007
Philstar

Army troops are being redeployed to slum areas in Metro Manila as part of the military’s effort to counter recruitment and propaganda by communist guerrillas.

Malacañang said the renewed troop deployment is part of security preparations ahead of President Arroyo’s State of the Nation Address (SONA) and the implementation next week of the controversial Human Security Act.

Executive Secretary Eduardo Ermita, however, assured the public that there is no cause for alarm since the troop deployment was made with the consent of local officials.

National Security Adviser and acting defense chief Norberto Gonzales said Malacañang had nothing to do with the troop deployment since it was decided on by the military’s National Capital Region Command (NCRCom).

Gonzales said the renewed troop deployment only showed the popular support of local officials and residents for the military’s civil-military operations.

“I guess the military is trying to prove that they didn’t do anything wrong the first time,” Gonzales said.

He said many barangay officials and community leaders welcomed the presence of troops in depressed areas.

Some 100 troops were being deployed Tuesday in Quezon City and Taguig, said Col. Ricardo Visaya, commander of the Armed Forces’ Civil-Military Operations battalion. Visaya said the troops’ return has the approval of local officials.

“After getting approval from Quezon City Mayor Feliciano Belmonte and Taguig Mayor Freddie Tinga, we sent back our CODE (Community Development) squads to these cities (Monday),” Visaya said.

Visaya said they are awaiting the approval of Manila Mayor Alfredo Lim to redeploy the troops in Tondo and other urban areas in the city next week.

Some 19 barangay officials from Manila, Caloocan City, Quezon City made the appeal for the return of the soldiers to urban poor areas.

The military sent 260 soldiers into 26 impoverished areas in November where it said communist rebels were trying to recruit residents to their 39-year armed rebellion against the government.

They were pulled out several days before the May 14 elections following charges they were being used to dissuade voters from backing the opposition.

NCRCom chief Maj. Gen. Benjamin Dolorfino said the 260 troops will all be back in the communities by next week.

Dolorfino said the military had to be proactive to confront possible threats from communist insurgents, and has taken a “gunless” approach, including medical missions, infrastructure projects and lectures.

Visaya said the troops will be dressed in their “General Office” attire and are not allowed to bring along rifles but only their sidearms.

“This time more vigorous actions will be undertaken to educate the people about the Communist Party of the Philippines’ (CPP) deceptions,” Visaya added.

“They will be taught how to counter the recruitment of the CPP.”

Visaya said the CPP and its front groups are welcome to observe the conduct of the lectures and the activities of the soldiers.

“They (communist rebels) do not need to hide. In fact, I am inviting them to be present in all our engagements,” he said.

Visaya said the invitation would belie claims that the presence of soldiers in the slum areas is a move to curtail civil rights.

Each soldier will be accompanied by policemen who will be staying with them during assignment, he said.

Militant groups led by Bagong Alyansang Makabayan (Bayan) immediately condemned the move, saying the deployment had been timed to coincide with the Human Security Act, which takes effect Sunday.

Bayan said the return of the military to urban communities in time with the implementation of the new anti-terror law will be used as another “fear factor” against critics in urban poor communities.

Bayan secretary general Renato Reyes said the military’s claim of conducting anti-communist lectures to counter alleged recruitment activities by communist rebels “is simply preposterous” as it is “a lame excuse” to justify military presence in Metro Manila.

At the same time, Reyes called on the repeal of the anti-terror law.

“The Arroyo regime is setting up a very dangerous scenario here. The troops are back and the terror law is set to take effect,” Reyes said.

Armed Forces of the Philippines chief Gen. Hermogenes Esperon Jr. earlier said communist rebels have infiltrated left-wing groups, which he claims are fronts for the CPP and the New People’s Army (NPA). - With Paolo Romero, Katherine Adraneda, AP

14 Phil Marines killed in Basilan.
http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/latest/8976/QTV-14-Marines-killed-in-Basilan-clash


MILF denies beheading.
http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/latest/8977/MILF-denies-beheading-Marines


AFP proves Au Sayaff MILF links
http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/latest/8979/AFP-probes-Abu-MILF-links-to-Basilan-clash


MILF admitted attacking Marines
http://www.gmanews.tv/story/50535/MILF-umamin-sa-pag-atake-sa-Marines-23-sundalo-daw-patay



http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines.jpg

Marines on Wednesday load the bodies of their comrades killed during a battle with Moro rebels in Tipo-Tipo, Basilan Tuesday 10th July.




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/Marinesbeheaded.jpg

rest in peace marines...

an old marines operation footage surfaced in youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu2ppMbQA5Q&mode=related&search=

u seem to forget the issue is the china sea and distance these bases have from the china sea and SE asia... the hawaii are guam bases are nothing compared to having a military presence here in the philippines.

And the issues are not air control but the control of the china sea and gaining a foothold on the china sea and let me tell u china is not like iraq where u can just bomb easy targets uncontested through your aircraft carriers and long range b2 bombers.. china has very advanced sophisticated weapons systems that can counter whatever the U.S. can muster and the china's navy growing and growing. Not to mention they got home base advantage over the U.S. when total war breaks out.

So gaining a firm base in the philippines and shifting the military presence from the guam and hawaii bases to the philippines i think is more sensible for the U.S. And using only the hawaii and guam base as a supply bridge and or a kind of alamo base when retreating.

dudes,times are changing and strategies are ever changing no base can be a significant base and remain a permanent base forever... and old insignificant U.S. bases here in our soil can be brought back to life in no time when the tensions and atmosphere changes and remember china will be very unpredictable in the future...

and having their bases here will also be for the benefit of our country and always remember the parcel islands the spratlys and the scarborough we have a major share over those terrirtories and it's resources and china wants it badly.

I agree with you that the Philippines needs a U.S. base there but the Philippine government won't allow one now. Besides, you also seem to forget the airlift capabilities and air interdiction capabilities of the U.S. military.

I agree what you say about the South China Sea and the distances involved from Hawaii or Guam. But distances is not the major issue (although it is a logistical factor). The main issue for U.S. military strategy at this time, IMO, is deterrence...not control.

^^ ^^ :bash: :bash: :bash:

... surround the whole island with navy, evacuate the civilians ... then napalm bomb the whole island ... cancer na to! kailngan ng chemo theraphy!


^^ ^^
though I alway sympathize with the plight of our brother Filipinos of Muslim faith, perhaps that is the only way to give a lesson to the Abu Sayaff and the scalawags of MILF and to avenge the beheading of the Marines, but it is easier said than done.

it will be a nightmare for the govt to transport the civilians to Zamboanga and also feeding them while in the evacuation camp.

about napalm .... I have seen in vietnam how the whole mountain and ricefields were burned by napalm .... both banks of mekong and saigon river were all burned black to the grounds. it took about 25 years before the vegetation returns. and then many american veterrans of vietnam war were
affected and still suffering from the effect of napalm ... Agent Orange I think is the name of those napalm bombs.

...correct me if im wrong... i thought MILF and the Govt. were under Cease Fire?

anyways, why not ask help from the Americans that's already stationed there? We can use their advance equipment along with their men. 2 is better than 1... :[

I agree with you that the Philippines needs a U.S. base there but the Philippine government won't allow one now. Besides, you also seem to forget the airlift capabilities and air interdiction capabilities of the U.S. military.

I agree what you say about the South China Sea and the distances involved from Hawaii or Guam. But distances is not the major issue (although it is a logistical factor). The main issue for U.S. military strategy at this time, IMO, is deterrence...not control.

U also forget that china can match whatever capability the U.S. can muster against them specially with troop mobilization their shipyards and factories are churning out war machines like a toy factory and not to mention that U.S is halfway around the globe and china is just around the corner that it can easily build an army bigger than the entire population of the U.S., britian and canada and western europe combined... :nuts:

U.S will never win if it goes on offensive war against china best for the U.S. to do is get a strong base with significant distance to the chinese motherland and take the defensive stance and protect the resources until china drains outs and gives up the offensive assualt over their interests.

U.S is no longer the lone superpower in the world my friends... soon china will surpass the U.S. in every military arms category... shocking isn't it to those U.S. supremacy patriot fanatics eh..??? well thats the truth eat it!! The U.S. is getting weaker and weaker with its protracted wars over the middle east and other rogue states meanwhile china is getting stronger and stronger economically and militarily...

...correct me if im wrong... i thought MILF and the Govt. were under Cease Fire?

anyways, why not ask help from the Americans that's already stationed there? We can use their advance equipment along with their men. 2 is better than 1... :[

I think the American military group right now in the southern Philippines is more of humanitarian mission than a battle group. The Philippine Armed Forces could really fight their way and get rid of these extremists since the AFP are better equipped and better trained. Their main problems are logistical planning and good information about their enemies.
Sometimes we would just think that the military should just comb the forests to flush out the insurgents, but that's not the way they wanted to play this insurgency problems.

U also forget that china can match whatever capability the U.S. can muster against them specially with troop mobilization their shipyards and factories are churning out war machines like a toy factory and not to mention that U.S is halfway around the globe and china is just around the corner that it can easily build an army bigger than the entire population of the U.S., britian and canada and western europe combined... :nuts:

U.S will never win if it goes on offensive war against china best for the U.S. to do is get a strong base with significant distance to the chinese motherland and take the defensive stance and protect the resources until china drains outs and gives up the offensive assualt over their interests.

U.S is no longer the lone superpower in the world my friends... soon china will surpass the U.S. in every military arms category... shocking isn't it to those U.S. supremacy patriot fanatics eh..??? well thats the truth eat it!! The U.S. is getting weaker and weaker with its protracted wars over the middle east and other rogue states meanwhile china is getting stronger and stronger economically and militarily...

Now why would the US be on an offensive to start a war against China?

I'm sorry, but you seem to be reading some garbage magazines. jgacis and I are still with the US military and somehow have a better idea on how advance some of the US military hardware is right now or those being developed. As I said, (since you said that China is now a major power), in case China would go out and start a war against America or its allies, most likely it would not be a conventional warfare. The war would be over in a few hours. God help us, I'm sure no one will win if ever this event happened.

U also forget that china can match whatever capability the U.S. can muster against them specially with troop mobilization their shipyards and factories are churning out war machines like a toy factory and not to mention that U.S is halfway around the globe and china is just around the corner that it can easily build an army bigger than the entire population of the U.S., britian and canada and western europe combined... :nuts:

U.S will never win if it goes on offensive war against china best for the U.S. to do is get a strong base with significant distance to the chinese motherland and take the defensive stance and protect the resources until china drains outs and gives up the offensive assualt over their interests.

U.S is no longer the lone superpower in the world my friends... soon china will surpass the U.S. in every military arms category... shocking isn't it to those U.S. supremacy patriot fanatics eh..??? well thats the truth eat it!! The U.S. is getting weaker and weaker with its protracted wars over the middle east and other rogue states meanwhile china is getting stronger and stronger economically and militarily...
All i can say to Tj is your F*$#^^%$^ dreaming :)

Governmet shouldnt do any peace talk with MILF, they should eliminate them along with abusayaff and some small time terrorist...

anyways, why not ask help from the Americans that's already stationed there? We can use their advance equipment along with their men. 2 is better than 1... :[


To answer your question, one needs to look at the VFA between the R.P and U.S.

The VFA is the VISITING FORCES AGREEMENT....

If you look carefully, the U.S. CANNOT perform direct combat missions in the Philippines. It's role (U.S) now is only intel, training, and liason support. No combat with insurgents (kasi I guess AFP/corrupt politicians don't want foreigners shooting our own filipinos? Even though they are criminals..:ohno: ) This is deeply-rooted from perhaps past anti-American colonial sentimism, in my opinion.

Why? Perhaps it is filipino pride?...I don't know. That's something the Philippine Defenses Forces and the current administration have decided.

Liability issues are a concern, although I think that is the LESSER problem...but it seems filipinos are more worried about that (like the Daniel Smith case) than solving the ROOT problems (by the way, the ROOT problems are also ingrained in filipino corruption and poverty).

Video Basilan battle

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/8984/GMA-news-team-reports-on-Basilan-battle

wondering why some of the mortars used by Marines on that tuesday battle, won't fire. in yesterday TV video footage aired by Ch 7, they mentioned that there were instances when mortars won't fire. perhaps another case of corruption in the logistic or receiving scrap or 2nd-hand military equipment from US military aid. :)

that is the problem, we cannot buy new modern equipmens for our military forces because most of the peoples taxes were stolen / plundered by corrupt politicians and other bureaucrats. shame on them. dapat sila ang pinugutan ng ulo ng abus....

if the rebels did not decapitate those Marine it will be just another combat story. But the beheading is barbaric and it is not in the tenet of any religions including Islam and Christianity the beheading of combatants and civilians. It is also against the provisions of the Geneva Convention on Warfare.

Those rebels and Abus in Basilan should be punished.

still trying? well they paid huge MONEY to Pakistan to solved the Alqaida but still no Bin Laden, new camps are sprouting inside afghanistan ... the problem w/ the americans they thought they can solve terrorists prob by imposing their strength ( military bases are included) w/ conventional warfare against an unconventional enemy ..as in intel parlance will tell you " be a terrorist to capture a terrorist"
I agree we lacked equipments and training but i always believed that Filipinos can only solved "internal" problems just like in Iraq they can only solved their problems.

If you read mindanao history our brother muslims was here long before us . they fought against the spaniards , americans and the japanese , and they are threatened by christians who are dominating the politcal and economic landscape.
quoting your "this abu sayaf is not true to their ideology" that's why i said they are band of scalawags and small time bandits who are just for the money , the true muslims are those peace loving who are "learned" who fight there war thru writings .

I quoted Igacis bec it's ridiculous putting a US base just for the sake of fighting this scalawags,,, putting a base is just putting target for the terrorists .

If you really want Filipinos not to fight each other pls. don't make Mindanao the scapegoat making the "woes of the Phils" . of anything goes bad its bec of mindanao ... the real problems are our socio-economic woes, centric governtment and greedy politicians
Huge money?

We get like 3 billion dollars which splits to 1.5 million for economic aid and 1.5 for military aid.

Do you know how many billions it costs to deploy 90,000 men in a area with little or no infrastructure?

Can you put a price on 800 lives that have been lost?

Governmet shouldnt do any peace talk with MILF, they should eliminate them along with abusayaff and some small time terrorist...


it is like saying we start a full scale war that could become a full scale civil war in the south, that is what the scalawags and fundamentalist in the rebel group wants to happen... pitting innocent muslims civilians and innocent christian civilians against each other. A war that nobody wins ...

i reckoned the rebels and abu sayaff should be isolated in basilan, evacuate the civilians and then full scale military operations in that islands to start and punish those rebels and abu sayaff. of course, evacuating them will be a nightmare.... some may even choose to stay and hide in the mountains.

unfortunately basilan is the place where muslims and christian live in harmony side by side for many years. some of the muslims there were relatives of the christian in that place, same like in other parts of western mindanao. but the winds of war will separate them, what an irony in our war-torn corrupted country.

Video Basilan battle

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/8984/GMA-news-team-reports-on-Basilan-battle

wondering why some of the mortars used by Marines on that tuesday battle, won't fire. in yesterday TV video footage aired by Ch 7, they mentioned that there were instances when mortars won't fire. perhaps another case of corruption in the logistic or receiving scrap or 2nd-hand military equipment from US military aid. :)




There should be an investigation also on those mortars. A mortar round, propellant and fuses should last for many many years. Not handled properly those propellant can be damaged. Mortar rounds are easy to fire. Soldiers should know what increment of propellant to be use on the ignition cartridge.
I noticed that the mortar rounds are not on their cylindrical casings and just laying on the ground and no one was assigned to them.

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mondo bizzaro
Member

Posts: 1225



Re: Islamic militants behead 4 Marines
« Reply #30 on: Today at 10:23:36 AM »

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Quote
The military said eight people have been confirmed dead in the incident, at least four of them beheaded. Six others have been reported missing while nine more were missing.

Mis-encounter. An un-coordinated movement of sovereign troops in sovereign land which ends up in a firefight with recognized rebels and concluded by a postmortem multiple decapitation by the rebels?

Isn't that too much? The decapitation part. Gigil na yun. Overkill.

And I thought that Islam said that corpses should not be violated.



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CBCP - When we have to absolutely interfere.


prairiefire
Member

Posts: 185



Re: Islamic militants behead 4 Marines
« Reply #31 on: Today at 10:26:21 AM »

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It seems that the MILF still thinks it can win a renewed war against us, otherwise why this seemingly unprovoked attack. They even call Tipo-Tipo " their territory". A lot of this has been our fault. We have shown them again and again that we lack the cojones to finally and totally crush them. Peace talks, ceasefires, truces... all these have shown that we lack the will to put an end to this disgrace once and for all. And another 14 marines, brave men all, have made the ultimate sacrifice because of the idiocy, stupidity and cluelessness of our politicians.
This is one of the few times i really miss Erap. He did know how to deal with these scum. Having lechon served in Camp Abubakar may have been politically incorrect, but oh was that sweet! It is time we really decide on whether the Republic of the Philippines really owns all of Mindanao, or just "most" of Mindanao.

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shadowars
Member

Posts: 95


the brightest light, casts the darkest shadow..


Re: Islamic militants behead 4 Marines
« Reply #32 on: Today at 10:58:56 AM »

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The room is heating up..anger, that's what we feel right now..it's a good driving force for retaliation..for sure, all of you wants it..

Sana noon pa, but maybe the President decided for a peace talk, because it would cost the Republic less.. but if she ever changed her mind, and decide ala Erap, to declare another full -scale war against the MILF, (considering She thinks it the best course of action to do), I just have two questions:

1. Can we afford it right now? and

2. For how long can we sustain another all out war?,

without bringing down the economy and the value of the peso with it? because if our financial think tanks can just assure the people that we can sustain it for a year without much impact on the economy, then i suggest we do it. becuase skrimishes like this , when summed up, in a year, may cost less in pesos, but drains up some of the troops morale .. the longer the conflict, the more mental and emotional strain it will inflict on the fighting force..

But then again, its all up to the President.




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mondo bizzaro
Member

Posts: 1225



Re: Islamic militants behead 4 Marines
« Reply #33 on: Today at 11:09:26 AM »

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This incident will be forgotten in the name peace.

What happened to those seven civilians decapitated by the ASG?

Do you think the Marines can fare any better?

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CBCP - When we have to absolutely interfere.


prairiefire
Member

Posts: 185



Re: Islamic militants behead 4 Marines
« Reply #34 on: Today at 11:23:06 AM »

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I see your point, shadowars. War should always be the last resort. But, understand that in Mindanao right now, large tracts of territory are controlled by an organization that does NOT recognize our government, and thinks of itself as another country. An organization whose concept of self has gotten so swell-headed it actually DICTATES to the national government when it can and when it can't enter "their" territory. By tolerating this, our government has de facto ceded such territories to them. It's as if we don't have the might to stop this nonsense.
BUT WE DO! And if only the government would have the political will to see this to the end, we can win. No, a year is not enough. It took the Americans 16 years in the early 20th century to suppress the moros, but suppress them they did. In fact, after 1916 no more major moro uprisings were noted. Erap showed us the way. Start a no-nonsense military campaign against them. Inform the public of why this was necessary. Include in the program a propaganda blitz to show us as the good guys. Use their own atrocities against them. Make moderate muslims part of the propaganda effort. Decimate them militarily, and when they are weakened, they will be willing to talk sincerely, not this moromoro that is slowly but surely bleeding us dry.
The MILF recognize strenght and power, which we haven't been showing much of lately. Seems like we have projected to them that we value peace at all cost. This is mainly our error, which only we can fix.

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sbhntr
Member

Posts: 189



Re: Islamic militants behead 4 Marines
« Reply #35 on: Today at 12:11:01 PM »

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if i may piggyback on what prairie fire posted. wrote this about two hours ago but wasnt able to post:

hate to be negative but i'm interested to see how important those fallen marines are to the filipinos. will the press and politicians portray this as just another day in the war against insurgents ( i dont think the press like calling them terrorists)? will they downplay it for the sake of "peace"? my opinion, the time is right to mount a propoganda blitz against these groups and move people's opinion towards disarming and dismantling them. the media is controlled by a very few and i'm sure if you push the right button, this can be done. the philippine media is good in creating hype. must be done quick before the usual groups put out the usual complain about militarization or the displacement of civilians and the victimization of children (there is a pattern on how the other side do these things) once (and if) the afp starts moving. heck, put it out to the foreign press so countries which support these terrorist will be forced to make a public condemnation. this is a good opportunity which came about at a very high price, hope the sacrifices will not be rendered meaningless...

ps: would it be possible to do this?: since the philippine govt has more or less recognized these groups, this action could be highlighted as a violation of the geneva convention. if the milf respond that they are not signatories, then declare them a terrorist group. if they acknowledge, then demand the surrender of those involved (all 500 or so) including the chain and put them up for war crimes.

« Last Edit: Today at 01:10:54 PM by sbhntr » Logged



kenjisan
Member

Posts: 56



Re: Islamic militants behead 4 Marines
« Reply #36 on: Today at 12:40:17 PM »

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I watched the video footage from GMA 7. The reporter said that the mortar fire from the enemy is much better than that of our marines. Someone should investigate those defective mortar rounds (Are those the one's we bought from Pakistan???). Those 10 decapitated marines should be given justice. Also 100 marines vs 500 MILF - ASG guerillas. Were the marines reinforced or did they just have to fend for themselves? I hope someone from the inside could enligthen us on what really happened to our boys.

Shalom

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dimasupil
MBAC
Member

Posts: 156



Re: Islamic militants behead 4 Marines
« Reply #37 on: Today at 12:46:37 PM »

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RIP to the fallen Marines.

Let's just wait a little bit. Siguradong babawi ang AFP.

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lightning strike
Member

Posts: 4



Re: Islamic militants behead 4 Marines
« Reply #38 on: Today at 01:03:54 PM »

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I think we can afford for a new war against this terrorist what we can't afford is to let this tragedy pass by without serving justice and it is the responsibility of the Government especially to the family of the murdered soldiers to call for an offensive to give them the dose of their medicine.

In times like this we need to let them know that criminal and cowardly acts will not go unpunished and the Military Organization should know that they owe their dead comrades big time. Steadfast action is required so as not to put their sacrifices in vain.

What the Government should not do is to agree on a soft reaction on this incident otherwise this terrorist will see this as weakness on the part of the Government and will only encourage them to engage on the same terroristic act in the future since they already know that the Government cannot do anything about it.

JUSTICE MUST BE SERVED!!!!!!!!!!!

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sbhntr
Member

Posts: 189



Re: Islamic militants behead 4 Marines
« Reply #39 on: Today at 02:30:48 PM »

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this was taken from philstar and it bothers the living heck out of me... are they using time to erode the impact? the govt is waiting for imt to form an opinion before taking action? would i be mistaken in assuming that at this moment, the milf would be stocking up, hunkering down, re enforcing its ranks, making it harder and costlier for the afp?


On the other hand, Maj. Gen. Edgardo Gurrea, chairman of the government panel for the JCCH, said they are investigating the incident.

“Efforts are now being done to gather correct information on what had really happened there,” Gurrea said.

Gurrea said Malaysian Maj. Gen. Ismail Khan, head of the International Monitoring Team (IMT), will head the investigation into the incident.

“All Gen. Ismail is waiting for is clearance from the Malaysian government to enable his group to help gather information, right on the ground, to determine what had really happened there,” Gurrea said.

Gurrea stressed the important role of the IMT as “third party observer” in the conduct of investigations by the JCCH.

The IMT, led by Malaysia, is composed of representatives of Islamic countries who are monitoring the truce between the government and MILF.

Malacañang, for its part, remained restrained in its response, merely saying the government would raise the incident before the JCCH and the IMT.



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dimasupil
MBAC
Member

Posts: 156



Re: Islamic militants behead 4 Marines
« Reply #40 on: Today at 03:16:53 PM »

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We'll see. Given that our troops were able to recover the casualties, they may be in pursuit of or at least in close proximity to the enemy.

A counter attack hasn't been ruled out.

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SSGT
Member

Posts: 132



Re: Islamic militants behead 4 Marines
« Reply #41 on: Today at 03:29:08 PM »

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no more peace talks!!! they are all bandits, no need to deal or talk to bandits... we should strike hard and fast!

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redoctober
Member

Posts: 17



Re: Islamic militants behead 4 Marines
« Reply #42 on: Today at 03:50:06 PM »

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in reference the beheading of the filipino marines .

its amazing that the people that carried out this crime , believe they are brave fighters . if anything it shows to the whole wide world the cowards that they are . its one thing fighting a person but to behead a person after killing them is a sign of scum of the highest order and the low life that they are .

but let a very clear message go out across the whole of the philippines , that the people / group that carried out this crime can continue running but you cannot hide . your day will come . every loyal filipino soldier / marine will take a loyal oath on the filipino flag to track you down and get justice .

redknight from europe



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SalatSaPoknat
Member

Posts: 9



Re: Islamic militants behead 4 Marines
« Reply #43 on: Today at 05:20:03 PM »

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Where the hell are those COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS, who keep on bad mouthing the AFP for "Human Rights Violations".

THE THREAT (FOR THE MILF) WAS NEUTRALIZED THE MOMENT THE PMC GRUNTS WERE DISABLED, DIS ARMED, WHY DECAPITATE THEM.

KAILANGAN PA BA INVISTIGAHAN YAN?

WALA BANG "COMMON SENSE" ANG MGA TAGA CHR?

Ano ang press release ng CHR bakit mum ngayon yang mga yan?

I personally think that the afp formally should ask the CHR for comment. Para magkaalaman kung ano talalaga ang silbi ng "commision na iyan.

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gani
Member

Posts: 128



Re: Islamic militants behead 4 Marines
« Reply #44 on: Today at 06:17:09 PM »

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GOD bless the souls of the marines who died in this encounter.may they rest in peace.
it was clearly shown how the marines will fight
outnumbered,but they will hold and fight it out to the end.
condolence to the loved ones left behind by these brave men.
GOD BLESS THE PHILIPPINE MARINES.

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Perhaps we should IMPEACHED someone for the debacle in Basilan. :) The chain of command is responsible for these debacle.

^^ ^^
about napalm .... I have seen in vietnam how the whole mountain and ricefields were burned by napalm .... both banks of mekong and saigon river were all burned black to the grounds. it took about 25 years before the vegetation returns. and then many american veterrans of vietnam war were
affected and still suffering from the effect of napalm ... Agent Orange I think is the name of those napalm bombs.

Agent Orange was a defoilation chemical that was sprayed from the air in the jungle to make the trees shed its leaves. The reasoning was that the leaves made for good cover for the vietcong, so make the leave fall out and eliminate the cover.

It turned out to be a bad move as when the leaves fell, the underbrush grew taller, providing even better cover for the VC.

Napalm is a fire bomb, in its simplest form is thickened gasoline that adheres to flesh to make it more effective as anti personnel ordnance.

What I would use for those abu sayaf bastards is FAE (fuel air explosive). The mother of all bombs. It's the nearest thing to a nuclear bomb in destruction effects but without the radiation.

Man, I feel sorry for those marines. If I were PGMA I would courtmartial the battalion CO and shoot the stupid company commander.

If the GMA news reports are accurate the 100 marines were transported in three trucks, at least one of which was a non-4 wheel drive dump truck.

Jesus Christ, an entire platoon crammed inside each of the unarmored trucks driven in hostile territory? A single grenade thrown inside that truck would create massive casualties.

Man, I feel sorry for those marines. If I were PGMA I would courtmartial the battalion CO and shoot the stupid company commander.

If the GMA news reports are accurate the 100 marines were transported in three trucks, at least one of which was a non-4 wheel drive dump truck.

Jesus Christ, an entire platoon crammed inside each of the unarmored trucks driven in hostile territory? A single grenade thrown inside that truck would create massive casualties.

http://pdff.sytes.net/index.php?showtopic=3404&st=15


huminahon kayo mga tol, babawi din ang mga marines. tiyak yon!

Tormentor Posted: Jul 12 2007, 06:37 AM

Teniente Primero

Group: Rangers
Posts: 196
Member No.: 56
Joined: 31-July 04

In the exclusive video footage taken by GMA reporter embedded with the Marines and shown just this morning, it was obvious that the troops let down their guards, probably believing that the MI will not attack them. There was no proper combat patrol formation, troops were relaxed on the way back to base after they failed to find Fr. Bossi.

At saka, kitang kita dun sa video ang mortar rounds ng Marines na hindi pumutok! Putsa, isa lang sa lima ang hindi dud! Sabi nga ng reporter, mas marami pang mortar rounds na pumutok ang mga kalaban kaysa mortar ng Marines.

The lack of vehicles is very obvious, The Marines also used borrowed a civilian Daewoo truck which promptly stuck in the mud!

The V150 proved useful as most of the wounded were evacuated using this single APC and the M35 trucks were death traps. Kaya AFP - i deploy nyo na ang Barako! anything armored is better than civilian trucks!
--------------------

Running away is futile, you just die tired.

spearhead Posted: Jul 12 2007, 06:44 AM


Comandante


Group: Paratroops
Posts: 274
Member No.: 655
Joined: 14-February 06



Ito na ang bakbakan video footage sa Basilan, July 11/07 Manila time (from combat studio):

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/8982/Marines-e...ttle-in-Basilan

RESBAK TIME!

Rest in peace for those who gave their lives for freedom...

This post has been edited by spearhead on Jul 12 2007, 06:48 AM

Holler Posted: Jul 12 2007, 06:45 AM


Sargento Segundo

Group: Marauders
Posts: 66
Member No.: 132
Joined: 16-September 04


QUOTE
At saka, kitang kita dun sa video ang mortar rounds ng Marines na hindi pumutok! Putsa, isa lang sa lima ang hindi dud! Sabi nga ng reporter, mas marami pang mortar rounds na pumutok ang mga kalaban kaysa mortar ng Marines.


I saw this too!

It was very frustrating and so pitiful to see pinned down Marines still fighting gallantly while their mortar team fired dud after dud mortar rounds!
Dapat yung dud na mortar ipalo dun sa ulo ng mga taga logistics at corrupt generals!

--------------------

Military & Defense:

http://militarydefense.blogspot.com/

Hyundai Car Owners:

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spearhead Posted: Jul 12 2007, 06:57 AM


Comandante


Group: Paratroops
Posts: 274
Member No.: 655
Joined: 14-February 06



Some snipers got killed too...

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/50535/MILF-uma...ndalo-daw-patay


Dalawang M-35 military trucks ang nasira habang kinuha pa ng mga bandido ang isa pang sasakyan sa insidente, ani Iqbal.

Idinagdag pa nito na limang five M-60 machine guns, isang sub-machine gun, limang M-203 grenade launchers, dalawang M-14 rifles na may sniper scopes, isang night vision goggle at dalawang radio transceivers ay nakuha rin.


2 User(s) are reading this topic (2 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)

Buti pa ata si Erap, he went an "all out war" against the MILF and was able to calm down the Mindanao area. But then, they started to regroup and became powerful again because of some politicians and financial assistance from somewhere else.

On that video, It seems that the firefight was totally a snafu. The way those GMA reporters account of the actual battle seems unreal or they are just not that close to the entire encounter as compared to the timeline of the event.
A firefight that last from 10 am until 7 pm is really a very long firefight.

I big salute to those brave marines for doing their job and prayers to those who perished.

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/latest/9004/Saksi-MILF-blames-AFP-for-Basilan-encounter



http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/8984/GMA-news-team-reports-on-Basilan-battle



http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/8983/14-marines-killed-in-battle-with-MILF-battle

^^i really feel for those marines, outnumbered with defective equipment(probably caused more by corruption rather than lack of funds), far from home. im wondering though why the firefight lasted for so long without them getting any reinforcements.

UBUSIN NA AT PASABUGIN YUNG MGA ABU SAYF NA YAN!

^^ Indeed, they should be dissolved. They are just inflicting harm to our soldiers and to our people.

I salute all those marines who have fought the battle until the end. They were out there to find the Italian priest but they had to fight under such conditions. It was reported that an Abu leader was seriously wounded and the son died in the clash.

They have fought a good fight. May their souls rest in peace.

^^i really feel for those marines, outnumbered with defective equipment(probably caused more by corruption rather than lack of funds), far from home. im wondering though why the firefight lasted for so long without them getting any reinforcements.

The Marines are really outnumbered considering it is the bailwick of the MILF. This is a big slap in the face of the AFP because of their defective equipments. I hope this will be an eye opener (again..again..again..again..again... infinity!)... Reinforcement are their but the battleground is very strategic for the enemy that hides them in the bushes and trees...

UBUSIN NA AT PASABUGIN YUNG MGA ABU SAYF NA YAN!

I dont think its the work of the Abu Sayaff. The MILF admits that it is their territory. That they are the ones who had an encounter with the marines...

Now why would the US be on an offensive to start a war against China?

I'm sorry, but you seem to be reading some garbage magazines. jgacis and I are still with the US military and somehow have a better idea on how advance some of the US military hardware is right now or those being developed. As I said, (since you said that China is now a major power), in case China would go out and start a war against America or its allies, most likely it would not be a conventional warfare. The war would be over in a few hours. God help us, I'm sure no one will win if ever this event happened.

Example if china invades taiwan that would put the U.S. on the offensive move ... get it?? U.S. vowed to defend taiwan if china uses force and invades it.

Sure U.S. doesnt want a war with china but china is challenging the U.S. by threatening it's interests.

Why would u say the war would be over in a few hour? lol lol, wth?? it seems even shorter estimate than iraq that lasted a week. China is not like iraq that the war will just be over within hours as you say or even weeks china is a superpower and the U.S. fears them and the are going uneasy... :)

Well, unless your a talking about nuclear warfare well it could be over yes within hours but after that conventional warfare will still follow after that unconventional war comes and turns the whomsoever occupied country into another iraq.
In a conventional war China can stand up against the U.S. and i hope the U.S. will never go to war with china because that will wreck the entire asia.

We are just assuming if possible, all i can sau china is not that easy dude if U.S. is advanced china is catching up behind them...

All i can say to Tj is your F*$#^^%$^ dreaming :) Governmet shouldnt do any peace talk with MILF, they should eliminate them along with abusayaff and some small time terrorist...

papi_chulo if u got nothing to say to me here other than that is better for to just stfu :nuts:

And sorry our goverment doesn't the capability the eliminate them all as of yet that is why they are using peacetalks because towns and villages are getting involved in the crossfire and encounters and innocent civilians and people are dying. Now put that what i said in yer small head.

^^ Indeed, they should be dissolved. They are just inflicting harm to our soldiers and to our people.

I salute all those marines who have fought the battle until the end. They were out there to find the Italian priest but they had to fight under such conditions. It was reported that an Abu leader was seriously wounded and the son died in the clash.

They have fought a good fight. May their souls rest in peace.

They are again considered the unsung heroes of the country and will be included in the "libingan ng mga bayani". <--- Ganun lang bah? tsk.tsk.tsk.tsk... I hope Sentaro Trillanes can create a legacy for the welfare of the Filipino Soldiers!

Example if china invades taiwan that would put the U.S. on the offensive... get it?? U.S. vowed to defend taiwan if china uses force and invades it.

Why would u say the war would be over in a few hour? lol lol, wth?? it seems even shorter estimate than iraq that lasted a week or within hours as you said. China is not like iraq that the war will just be over within hours as you or even weeks china is a superpower and the U.S. fears them and the are going uneasy... :)

In a conventional war China can stand up against the U.S. and i hope the U.S. will never go to war with china because that will wreck the entire asia.

We are just assuming if possible, all i can sau china is not that easy dude if U.S. is advanced china is catching up behind them...

Iraq and China are not the same. Iraq's military was down and out during Operation Iraqi Freedom in just a few days. The battle going on right now is a secular war.

China on the other hand has its own uniformed military forces. And a military warfare strategy or rules of engagement would be applied if the war would go conventional. If both go nuclear, then most likely your butt would not be save and so as mine. It might just go in a flash, that no one might see the result.

If ever China will attack Taiwan or any allied nations, the US would not just go into war with China, they would be in a defensive mode in protecting Taiwan. Which I'm sure why the naval fleet is roaming the Pacific 24/7 and NORAD is always on the lookout on the military movements of any nations.

Kung maging pasaway ang China, the US can just do a naval blockade on all of China's container ships and on land, stop all the cargo trucks that has all their export products and it will start an internal revolution in Mainland China. :)

^^i really feel for those marines, outnumbered with defective equipment(probably caused more by corruption rather than lack of funds), far from home. im wondering though why the firefight lasted for so long without them getting any reinforcements.

why the mortar rounds failed to detonate must be investigated. artillery ordnance occassionaly fail to detonate if it hits mud (the fuse doesn't hit hard enough to ignite)

Man, I feel sorry for those marines. If I were PGMA I would courtmartial the battalion CO and shoot the stupid company commander.

If the GMA news reports are accurate the 100 marines were transported in three trucks, at least one of which was a non-4 wheel drive dump truck.

Jesus Christ, an entire platoon crammed inside each of the unarmored trucks driven in hostile territory? A single grenade thrown inside that truck would create massive casualties.

You make a really good point gen1.

Unfortunately, like what I mentioned about post #296 in regards to communications security, the AFP needs to be more disciplined and trained!!!

Why in the hell did the AFP tell the media press about the intercepted intel reports that Bossi was in Basilan?!!! :ohno: Even if the insurgents already knew the marines where coming, that news report only gave further warning to other supporters that endangered those troops. And reading the other posts here, there is defintely LACK of training or adherence to military protocols.

I really thought the U.S.-R.P BALIKITAN excercises would help make a difference, but that obviously doesn't show in this case. Who knows, maybe the AFP men are getting proper training from U.S. forces, but we all know the difference between receiving training and IMPLEMENTING them.

For some psychological reason, there is a deep-rooted problem IMO with filipinos fighting filipinos and leadership (whether political or military). This needs to stop. I really think there is something ingrained in our filipino culture that will continue to hold ourselves back. THIS NEEDS TO STOP!!!!

I really hope you understand @dinabaw, that these Islamic insurgents (whether Abu-Sayef, MILF, or "scalawags") are not the small-time "BANDITS" you claim they are. Criminals who behead our own troops are TERRORISTS!!!
NOT BANDITS!!!!! :ohno:

Example if china invades taiwan that would put the U.S. on the offensive move ... get it?? U.S. vowed to defend taiwan if china uses force and invades it.

Sure U.S. doesnt want a war with china but china is challenging the U.S. by threatening it's interests.

Why would u say the war would be over in a few hour? lol lol, wth?? it seems even shorter estimate than iraq that lasted a week. China is not like iraq that the war will just be over within hours as you say or even weeks china is a superpower and the U.S. fears them and the are going uneasy... :)

Well, unless your a talking about nuclear warfare well it could be over yes within hours but after that conventional warfare will still follow after that unconventional war comes and turns the whomsoever occupied country into another iraq.
In a conventional war China can stand up against the U.S. and i hope the U.S. will never go to war with china because that will wreck the entire asia.

We are just assuming if possible, all i can sau china is not that easy dude if U.S. is advanced china is catching up behind them...

I think you really are wrong about China, but I do have to admit I admire your stubborness to believe China is CATCHING UP with the U.S....

How can China stand up against the U.S. in a conventional war? Do you really think China has the technology and logistical capability to defeat the U.S. militarily? NOT!!!!

I'll just give you a small example. Ever heard of GPS? Yes, the Global Positioning System. Who created and currently controls that? The U.S.... If it wanted to, the U.S. can shut-down GPS in a second. But it probably won't. GPS is needed for real-time navigation data on precision-guided bombs and intercontinental missiles. In war time, the U.S. would DEGRADE all GPS signals, making it useless for the enemy. But U.S. weapons can still use them because they have the encryption codes to use full operational capability of the encoded GPS signals.

So how would China's missiles reach the U.S? Would it use antiquated or stand-alone INS/INUs (inertial nav systems/units) without GPS guidance for their missiles' navigation systems? If it did, they would become easier targets for U.S. military space satellites that monitor and warn from these threats. INS/INUs precess over time (lose accuracy due to the precession effect of the gyros) and weapons that have better capabilities (ie. embedded GPS/INS nav systems) have the upper advantage. China would have to send up their own 24 geosynchronous satellites to have worldwide nav capability. FAT CHANCE!!!

The U.S. has one of the most sophisticated COMMAND, CONTROL, AND COMMUNICATIONS capabalities in the world. U.S. AWACS (airborne warning and control systems) have full "eye-in-the-sky capability" for hundreds (if not thousands) of nautical miles with direct communications with U.S. naval, marine, army, and air force troops. Include "floating-city" aircraft carriers from the U.S. Naval Fleet, minimum radar-detection planes like the F-117 (soon to be phased out) and the F-22 Raptor, and contracted U.S. commercial airliners to mobilize a high percentage of our troops, and you have a system unlike no other that China has a match for against their "foreign devils". All you probably see are the Chinese military parades in Beijing on CCTV... :nuts:

You seem to only look at the numbers. It's true, the Chinese military, by the numbers, outnumbers the U.S. But the U.S. has been adapting to "doing more with less". This has really stretched our U.S. troops and have caused lots of pain with familiy and employment. It also has made our military strategy "smarter" and more technological advanced that makes up for the highly-numbered Chinese Red Army. What equipment does China have? Sure they could have improved and upgraded their systems, but I can reassure you that the majority of them are Cold-War chassis platforms that have not proven themselves in today's global wars.

Another example, look at our UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles) like the Global Hawk and Predator. The logistical support and intel these weapons provide are nowhere near the level that Chinese UAVs can match (if they even exists!!!).

Ok dude, if you keep insisting China is playing catch-up, tell that to the Pentagon, Army War College, etc. etc. and all the other think-tanks out there who have been simulating having wars with China for years! You can bet that for every mistake experienced in the battlefield, U.S. military strategists are implementing, improving, and learning 24/7.

These are just a few samples. So please tell me how China can win? No need to go about taking about Taiwan and other U.S "interests". This is a military thread, so tell me how China can millitarily defeat the U.S. It won't happen...

Btw, this is not off-topic, because whatever happens the Philippines Defense Forces would be caught in the middle! :nuts:

I dont think its the work of the Abu Sayaff. The MILF admits that it is their territory. That they are the ones who had an encounter with the marines...

A ranking Abu sayyaf leader, Isnilon Hapilon, was among those wounded in the encounter. His son was among those killed. Considering this and the fact of the beheadings, coupled with the weak denials of the MILF that the beheadings were done by their forces, it's possible the MILF has been deceiving the government all along and has still not severed its ties with the ASG.

From Philstar:

A Yakan Islamic missionary working in a line agency of the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao (ARMM) claimed the MILF and Abu Sayyaf were behind the ambush.

The missionary echoed the claims made by Alivio that the soldiers were drawn into an ambush by the Abu Sayyaf.

“There was so much treachery in the ambush because it was perpetrated deep inside MILF territory. There are indications that the unsuspecting Marines were allowed to go deeper inside the camp first before they were attacked and killed like wild animals,” said the missionary.

Troops have been sent to Basilan on reports that Bossi had been brought to the province by his kidnappers.

GMA NEWS
7/12/2007

President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo on Thursday ordered the military to “hunt down" those who killed 14 marines and beheaded 10 of them following an encounter in Tipo-Tipo town in the island-province of Basilan.

"The Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) is duty bound to hunt down and arrest those who treacherously killed and beheaded the soldiers," Mrs Arroyo said in a statement.

The President said the Moro Islamic Liberation Front must either let government forces pursue Abu Sayyaf members if these were responsible or that they must themselves account for the killings before the ceasefire committee.

"If the perpetrators are Abu Sayyaf, the MILF must stand apart from these terrorists and allow their pursuit and interdiction by government forces. If MILF forces are culpable, then they must be accounted for by the Ceasefire Committee and be brought to justice. There can be no excuses or alibis for these acts of savagery," Mrs Arroyo said.


My suggestion to GMA is...

1. To end all peacetalks (it's obviously not working for the last few decades :ohno: )

2. Dissolve the A.R.M.M (why call it "Autonomous" when over 95% of it's revenues come from the national government? :ohno: ).

3. Allow U.S. special forces to engage in combat operations,

4. Weed out the incompetent AFP leaders who can't lead our AFP troops!!!

This is just my opinion of course...

Btw, although I respect GMA, I just can't understand how she can say that last statement "There can....savagery" without sounding so cliche! If she really meant that, she should be doing more about it!!! But I guess everything is political, and once again I'm sure filipinos would start complaining if she did take measures too "extreme" for the common masses.. :ohno:

But then again, that's what a leader is all about...

A ranking Abu sayyaf leader, Isnilon Hapilon, was among those wounded in the encounter. His son was among those killed. Considering this and the fact of the beheadings, coupled with the weak denials of the MILF that the beheadings were done by their forces, it's possible the MILF has been deceiving the government all along and has still not severed its ties with the ASG.

From Philstar:

The Government as always... deceived!
But as long as we didn't see the body of the dead son of Hapilon, we should not believe it. Maybe it is just one of their psy strat...

I took this pic when I was in Basilan last January. It is one of our AFP troops TFZ (Task Force Zamboanga).

I'm posting it here as a tribute for their sacrifice in taking the risks out there...

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/2803/dscn37071cg6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

We need to support our AFP troops, they deserve better training and benefits...

My suggestion to GMA is...

1. To end all peacetalks (it's obviously not working for the last few decades )

2. Dissolve the A.R.M.M (why call it "Autonomous" when over 95% of it's revenues come from the national government? ).

3. Allow U.S. special forces to engage in combat operations,

4. Weed out the incompetent AFP leaders who can't lead our AFP troops!!!

This is just my opinion of course...

Btw, although I respect GMA, I just can't understand how she can say that last statement "There can....savagery" without sounding so cliche! If she really meant that, she should be doing more about it!!! But I guess everything is political, and once again I'm sure filipinos would start complaining if she did take measures too "extreme" for the common masses..

But then again, that's what a leader is all about...

My other option(Suggestion)

1. Give Peace a last chance. An Ultimatum time bounded absolute last chance!

The reason why we are "super" delayed in our peace talk because our politician are used to it already. They love to be seen in the television and be read in the newspaper for a longer period of time. Very very very too too too bureaucratic! Too Much! Rotten Democracy!

IMO, i dont believe that peace is within reach. How can you achieve that if the ultimate aim of the other party is a separate state? And they are gaining grounds already starting from the Tripoli Agreement to the Political Autonomy of the Region, they are even trying to increase the coverage gradually in our very eyes!

>>> The GRP Panel must do this: "This is our peace plan", Take it or lets go to war! Thats it...

The Government as always... deceived!
But as long as we didn't see the body of the dead son of Hapilon, we should not believe it. Maybe it is just one of their psy strat...

Well, let's wait for the investigation. I'm just pointing out the inconsistencies in the claims of the MILF. For instance, the MILF's claim that they were compelled to do a counter attack because the Marines "intruded into [their] territory and [their] forces were alarmed and had to defend their positions". If the MILF attack was done in self-defense, why did the GMA7 footage show the Marines seeking cover behind their trucks and coconut trees, "looking like they were not sure where the shooting was coming from"? There were also soldiers trying to counter attack with a mortar, which would not fire. Their trucks were stalled in the mud, and it was raining hard.

Does the mere unexpected presence of the Marines in MILF territory (with clearly no means or ability to launch an attack) qualify as an offensive?

Moreover, even though the encounter transpired in MILF territory and the MILF admit responsibility for the attack, they could not explain why the soldiers were beheaded. On the other hand, they deny that their forces were responsible for the beheadings. The MILF have a policy not to harm their captives. Beheading is the trademark of the ASG.

Did the ASG just happen on the scene after the soldiers were killed, and behead the Marines without the knowledge of the MILF? To use the cliche, tell that to the Marines!

to set the matter straight, all the lands and seas in the philippine archipelago were the sovereign territory of thePhilippine government.

the MILF or the MNLF only temporarily controlled a part of our territory.

I think you really are wrong about China, but I do have to admit I admire your stubborness to believe China is CATCHING UP with the U.S....

How can China stand up against the U.S. in a conventional war? Do you really think China has the technology and logistical capability to defeat the U.S. militarily? NOT!!!!

I'll just give you a small example. Ever heard of GPS? Yes, the Global Positioning System. Who created and currently controls that? The U.S.... If it wanted to, the U.S. can shut-down GPS in a second. But it probably won't. GPS is needed for real-time navigation data on precision-guided bombs and intercontinental missiles. In war time, the U.S. would DEGRADE all GPS signals, making it useless for the enemy. But U.S. weapons can still use them because they have the encryption codes to use full operational capability of the encoded GPS signals.

So how would China's missiles reach the U.S? Would it use antiquated or stand-alone INS/INUs (inertial nav systems/units) without GPS guidance for their missiles' navigation systems? If it did, they would become easier targets for U.S. military space satellites that monitor and warn from these threats. INS/INUs precess over time (lose accuracy due to the precession effect of the gyros) and weapons that have better capabilities (ie. embedded GPS/INS nav systems) have the upper advantage. China would have to send up their own 24 geosynchronous satellites to have worldwide nav capability. FAT CHANCE!!!

The U.S. has one of the most sophisticated COMMAND, CONTROL, AND COMMUNICATIONS capabalities in the world. U.S. AWACS (airborne warning and control systems) have full "eye-in-the-sky capability" for hundreds (if not thousands) of nautical miles with direct communications with U.S. naval, marine, army, and air force troops. Include "floating-city" aircraft carriers from the U.S. Naval Fleet, minimum radar-detection planes like the F-117 (soon to be phased out) and the F-22 Raptor, and contracted U.S. commercial airliners to mobilize a high percentage of our troops, and you have a system unlike no other that China has a match for against their "foreign devils". All you probably see are the Chinese military parades in Beijing on CCTV... :nuts:

You seem to only look at the numbers. It's true, the Chinese military, by the numbers, outnumbers the U.S. But the U.S. has been adapting to "doing more with less". This has really stretched our U.S. troops and have caused lots of pain with familiy and employment. It also has made our military strategy "smarter" and more technological advanced that makes up for the highly-numbered Chinese Red Army. What equipment does China have? Sure they could have improved and upgraded their systems, but I can reassure you that the majority of them are Cold-War chassis platforms that have not proven themselves in today's global wars.

Another example, look at our UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles) like the Global Hawk and Predator. The logistical support and intel these weapons provide are nowhere near the level that Chinese UAVs can match (if they even exists!!!).

Ok dude, if you keep insisting China is playing catch-up, tell that to the Pentagon, Army War College, etc. etc. and all the other think-tanks out there who have been simulating having wars with China for years! You can bet that for every mistake experienced in the battlefield, U.S. military strategists are implementing, improving, and learning 24/7.

These are just a few samples. So please tell me how China can win? No need to go about taking about Taiwan and other U.S "interests". This is a military thread, so tell me how China can millitarily defeat the U.S. It won't happen...

Btw, this is not off-topic, because whatever happens the Philippines Defense Forces would be caught in the middle! :nuts:

All i can say give china another 2 decade or more and you will see... :)
China is a serious challenge to U.S. and yes they are catching up behind the U.S. wether u like it or not.

Whatever technology the U.S. has china is also developing also remeber the israeli shares their technology with china as well as russsia...

You seem to forget that china is the worlds #1 copy machine.. ;)

All i can say give china another 2 decade or more and you will see... :)
China is a serious challenge to U.S. and yes they are catching up behind the U.S. wether u like it or not.

Whatever technology the U.S. has china is also developing also remeber the israeli shares their technology with china as well as russsia...

You seem to forget that china is the worlds #1 copy machine.. ;)

you're half way wrong dude.

chances are, 2 decades from now, the chinese maybe able to develop some super advance military weapons, but by that time, the americans may also be able to shut them down along the way with their own advance lazer weapon system which is being developed as of now. they may not gonna go to war each others anyway.

regarding about the other technologies, china is still way way behind the US. the only chinese advance technologies they have in hand are mostly in the military use. while they are still relying from foreign technologies when it comes to televisions, automobiles, computers, and other appliances, where the americans, europeans, koreans and japanese are on tops. and as what u said, the chinese so far were the #1 copycats, merely just copying or reversing some foreign technologies, and still have no original designs yet on those said fields.

in a matter of fact, the chinese will never catch up with the US. china dont even have a vast reserves of any major natural resources such as fuel fossils, not unless if they opt to capture the whole southeast asia. that is why they cannot have this long term resources to run their country forever like that.

unlike china, the US have the otherwise such as their vast deposits of fuel fossils somewhere in their west coast like in california and texas. what the americans are doing right now is strategically to finish off others resources first so that one day the world will look to US for resources specially in the oil fields. the US is also rich in corn fields which can be converted into a major source of ethanol. on top of this, the americans have other sources to backup their working machines, their commonwealth states such as hawaii, guam, grenada, etc.

one more thing u should know, about 2 decades from now, within those years, the big 3 american nations, US, MEXICO, & CANADA is eyeing a EURO style common currency. when that happen, those big 3's economies will become unreachable, and so to say china will never be able to sustain that kind of growth they were experiencing for the past 30 yrs or so. they will gonna need a serious economic problem in the near future.

therefore, that makes china as a dangerous asian neighbor, u know. you'll never know when the giant roars again and snatch its next prey. :)

Each one have their opinion about china well i stick with mine... ;)
Yes right now right china is far behind the U.S. but i believe if china keeps on progressing it will eventually catch up the with U.S. sooner or later .. :)

2 decades from now the u.s will most likely will be broke. japan and china are the two countries that are buying american treasury bonds in the billions. america has become a borrower. its over for america. they have too many latinos and blacks emigrating to that country. latinos and blacks are not known to be innovative people. look at the people emigrating to america, eritrean, kenyan,sudanese,etiopians, mexicans. those are not smart people. they are known to be gangs in america. its over for america and western europe because those are the type of people who are emigrating to their countries. the power shift will be in asia. asian are smart and innovative country and they dont allow blacks and latinos in their country. not like north america and western europe.

papi_chulo if u got nothing to say to me here other than that is better for to just stfu :nuts:

And sorry our goverment doesn't the capability the eliminate them all as of yet that is why they are using peacetalks because towns and villages are getting involved in the crossfire and encounters and innocent civilians and people are dying. Now put that what i said in yer small head.
i got another thing to say...your loosing it!!! haHAHAHAHHA

i got another thing to say...your loosing it!!! haHAHAHAHHA

:dunno: what's with this guy?? u got nothing else to contribute in this thread than just keep flaming? :ohno:

The Battle of Tipo Tipo in Basilan last July 10, 2007 from 1000 hours to about 1800 hrs of the same day

When our heroic Marines from the 1st Marine Landing Team based in Basilan were returning to their base after their unsuccessful attempt in looking for the kidnapped Italian priest Fr Bossi.




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines19.jpg



On the early morning of June the Marines were patrolling the area (Fire zone) of Tipo Tipo looking for the kidnappers and the kidnapped Italian priest.



http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/1-1.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/2-2.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/3-1.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/4-2.jpg

The embedded TV reporters of GMA TV to the Marines looking for Fr. Bossi.




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/5-1.jpg

The Marines were returning to their base.




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/6-1.jpg

however one of the trucks in their convoy got stuck in the mud.




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/7-1.jpg

Their convoy stopped and returned to the truck stuck in the mud.




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/8-2.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/9-2.jpg

The marine convoy convoy composed of about 150 soldiers were fired upon by about 300 to 400 moro guerillas hiding in the bushes.




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/10-2.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/11-1.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/12-1.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines1.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines2.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines3.jpg

fixing of the mortar after unsuccessful firing.



http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines4.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines5.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines6.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines7.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines8.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines9.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines10.jpg

defective mortar ammo




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines11.jpg

mortar that don't fire. many times "kaput"




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines12.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines13.jpgmany time unsuccessful firing of mortar.




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines14.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines15.jpg

air support arrives but found it difficult to give support owing to the very thick jungle cover where the Marines and guerillas seems to be not visible.




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines17.jpg

about 1900 hours the Marines were leaving the area of the battle.




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines18.jpg




other set of photos of the battle :


http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipo12.jpg
during the heat of the combat.




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipo13.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipotipo.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipo5.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipo6.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipo7.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipo8.jpg

fighting stops at dusk after an arranged ceasefire by the local monitoring team.




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipo9.jpg

dead Marines




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipo10.jpg

spokeman of the Moro Islamic Liberation Forces (MILF)




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipo11.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipo15.jpg

Palace Secretary ex Gen. Ermita


another set of photos :

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipoa.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipob.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipoc.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipod.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipoe.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipof.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipog.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipoh.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipoi.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipoj.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipok.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipol.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipom.jpg




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/tipon.jpg


Condolence to the families of the dead Marines who gaved their lives for our country.


Shame on the moro guerillas who have betrayed the tenets of Islam and who have violated the Geneva Convention on warfare.

I think you really are wrong about China, but I do have to admit I admire your stubborness to believe China is CATCHING UP with the U.S....

How can China stand up against the U.S. in a conventional war? Do you really think China has the technology and logistical capability to defeat the U.S. militarily? NOT!!!!

I'll just give you a small example. Ever heard of GPS? Yes, the Global Positioning System. Who created and currently controls that? The U.S.... If it wanted to, the U.S. can shut-down GPS in a second. But it probably won't. GPS is needed for real-time navigation data on precision-guided bombs and intercontinental missiles. In war time, the U.S. would DEGRADE all GPS signals, making it useless for the enemy. But U.S. weapons can still use them because they have the encryption codes to use full operational capability of the encoded GPS signals.

So how would China's missiles reach the U.S? Would it use antiquated or stand-alone INS/INUs (inertial nav systems/units) without GPS guidance for their missiles' navigation systems? If it did, they would become easier targets for U.S. military space satellites that monitor and warn from these threats. INS/INUs precess over time (lose accuracy due to the precession effect of the gyros) and weapons that have better capabilities (ie. embedded GPS/INS nav systems) have the upper advantage. China would have to send up their own 24 geosynchronous satellites to have worldwide nav capability. FAT CHANCE!!!

The U.S. has one of the most sophisticated COMMAND, CONTROL, AND COMMUNICATIONS capabalities in the world. U.S. AWACS (airborne warning and control systems) have full "eye-in-the-sky capability" for hundreds (if not thousands) of nautical miles with direct communications with U.S. naval, marine, army, and air force troops. Include "floating-city" aircraft carriers from the U.S. Naval Fleet, minimum radar-detection planes like the F-117 (soon to be phased out) and the F-22 Raptor, and contracted U.S. commercial airliners to mobilize a high percentage of our troops, and you have a system unlike no other that China has a match for against their "foreign devils". All you probably see are the Chinese military parades in Beijing on CCTV... :nuts:

You seem to only look at the numbers. It's true, the Chinese military, by the numbers, outnumbers the U.S. But the U.S. has been adapting to "doing more with less". This has really stretched our U.S. troops and have caused lots of pain with familiy and employment. It also has made our military strategy "smarter" and more technological advanced that makes up for the highly-numbered Chinese Red Army. What equipment does China have? Sure they could have improved and upgraded their systems, but I can reassure you that the majority of them are Cold-War chassis platforms that have not proven themselves in today's global wars.

Another example, look at our UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles) like the Global Hawk and Predator. The logistical support and intel these weapons provide are nowhere near the level that Chinese UAVs can match (if they even exists!!!).

Ok dude, if you keep insisting China is playing catch-up, tell that to the Pentagon, Army War College, etc. etc. and all the other think-tanks out there who have been simulating having wars with China for years! You can bet that for every mistake experienced in the battlefield, U.S. military strategists are implementing, improving, and learning 24/7.

These are just a few samples. So please tell me how China can win? No need to go about taking about Taiwan and other U.S "interests". This is a military thread, so tell me how China can millitarily defeat the U.S. It won't happen...

Btw, this is not off-topic, because whatever happens the Philippines Defense Forces would be caught in the middle! :nuts:
YEAH YOUR ryt bro...i told tj he's fu**** dreaming about his chinese red army cant beat u.s.a no matter wot. and plus U.S.A is capable of shutting down chinese supplies....eihaiehiaeih

you're half way wrong dude.

chances are, 2 decades from now, the chinese maybe able to develop some super advance military weapons, but by that time, the americans may also be able to shut them down along the way with their own advance lazer weapon system which is being developed as of now. they may not gonna go to war each others anyway.

regarding about the other technologies, china is still way way behind the US. the only chinese advance technologies they have in hand are mostly in the military use. while they are still relying from foreign technologies when it comes to televisions, automobiles, computers, and other appliances, where the americans, europeans, koreans and japanese are on tops. and as what u said, the chinese so far were the #1 copycats, merely just copying or reversing some foreign technologies, and still have no original designs yet on those said fields.

in a matter of fact, the chinese will never catch up with the US. china dont even have a vast reserves of any major natural resources such as fuel fossils, not unless if they opt to capture the whole southeast asia. that is why they cannot have this long term resources to run their country forever like that.

unlike china, the US have the otherwise such as their vast deposits of fuel fossils somewhere in their west coast like in california and texas. what the americans are doing right now is strategically to finish off others resources first so that one day the world will look to US for resources specially in the oil fields. the US is also rich in corn fields which can be converted into a major source of ethanol. on top of this, the americans have other sources to backup their working machines, their commonwealth states such as hawaii, guam, grenada, etc.

one more thing u should know, about 2 decades from now, within those years, the big 3 american nations, US, MEXICO, & CANADA is eyeing a EURO style common currency. when that happen, those big 3's economies will become unreachable, and so to say china will never be able to sustain that kind of growth they were experiencing for the past 30 yrs or so. they will gonna need a serious economic problem in the near future.

therefore, that makes china as a dangerous asian neighbor, u know. you'll never know when the giant roars again and snatch its next prey. :)
yeah your ryt again brotha!!! i told him that but in a short way that china cant beat u.s.a but hes still..i dunno...maybe just let him dream about it..ieaiheiahieha

^^ Congratz papi_chulo noob forumer that don't know s*** u got nothing else to say than quote other forumers point of view and say yah yah u ryt... and i won't argue with u and start this thread into a flaming topic.. :|

anyways we stressed our view and it's pointless to further argue between U.S. and china because only time will tell.. ;)

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/ZZZ_071207_1_b.jpg

Marines killed and beheaded in Basilan last 10th July.


http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view_article.php?article_id=76172

14 Marines killed; 10 were beheaded
MILF, Abu join forces in Basilan ambush
Julie Alipala , Christine Avendaño
Mindanao Bureau, Inquirer
First posted 02:28 AM 07/12/2007
LAMITAN CITY -- They were returning to base in heavy rains after a fruitless search for kidnapped Italian priest Giancarlo Bossi when their trucks stalled in the mud. Then the firing began.

In a 10-hour gun battle that turned into a carnage, 14 Marines were killed -- 10 of them beheaded -- and nine others wounded in one of the most shocking military debacles in years in the country’s southern islands.

“They were surprised when bullets rained on them,” Brig. Gen. Ramiro Alivio told the Philippine Daily Inquirer, recounting Tuesday’s daylong clash between 50 badly outnumbered Marines and some 400 Abu Sayyaf bandits and Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) guerrillas in Albarka municipality (formerly Tipo-tipo) on Basilan island.

The commander of the 1st Marine Brigade based in Basilan province said several enemy combatants were also killed in the one-sided encounter.

A GMA Network television crew which covered the battle described their experience as hellish.

The network’s video footage of the fighting showed the Marines seeking cover behind their trucks and coconut trees, looking like they were not sure where the shooting was coming from.

The footage also showed soldiers trying to counterattack with a mortar but it would not fire.

Abu Sayyaf ‘signature’

A senior military officer, who did not want to be quoted for lack of authority to speak to the media, said that it was the “signature” of the Abu Sayyaf to behead people.

“Only the Abu Sayyaf is into beheading people,” the officer said in a phone interview.

Branded as a terrorist organization by foreign governments, the Abu Sayyaf has gained international notoriety for decapitating hostages, including American tourist Guillermo Sobero who was beheaded in 2001.

The officer said Tuesday’s ambush was likely a retaliation by the bandits for the death of two of their commanders in an encounter on July 5 with soldiers from the same 1st Marine Brigade.

MILF admits involvement

One of the Abu Sayyaf leaders reportedly killed in that incident was the son of Abu Sayyaf leader Isnilon Hapilon, who was shot in the mouth.

Late on Tuesday, the Marines initially reported suffering four dead with 10 others missing -- until the headless corpses turned up.

The MILF, with which the Arroyo administration has been engaged in off-and-on peace talks for years, admitted its troops were involved in the fighting in Barangay Ginanta but said they acted in self-defense.

Mohagher Iqbal, MILF chief negotiator, said the military sent troops to Ginanta, a known MILF territory, without proper coordination.

Iqbal said the MILF forces were taken by surprise upon seeing the soldiers and opened fire.

Search for Bossi

Four MILF guerrillas were killed while seven others were wounded in the battle, he said.

Iqbal also admitted that MILF rebels scouring the area after the firefight recovered 11 headless bodies -- compared to Alivio’s figure of 10 -- and turned these over to the authorities.

Iqbal could not explain why the soldiers were beheaded.

“I received the report that our troops beheaded seven Marines,” Iqbal said. “We are investigating and determining the identities of those involved. We have an existing policy not to harm any captured enemy.”

Alivio said the soldiers were part of a search-and-rescue effort for Fr. Bossi, 57, who was abducted in Payao town, Zamboanga Sibugay province, on June 10.

There has been no word on the whereabouts of the priest since he was taken by armed men after saying Sunday Mass.

Stuck in the mud

The Basilan fighting would seem to support, at least on surface, earlier reports that Bossi’s captors might have already moved him out of Zamboanga Sibugay.

“They must be hiding something there,” Alivio said, referring to the intensity of Tuesday’s attack on the Marines.

On July 3, his abductors sent out photos of the kidnapped priest, which led the military to suspect he was now being hidden in Basilan.

Alivio said the Marine soldiers, who rode on three military trucks, were on their way back to their headquarters in Campo Uno here after an operation in connection with the Bossi kidnapping when they were ambushed.

“One of the three trucks got stuck in mud. It was then raining hard and that made the movement of the soldiers quite difficult,” he said.

‘We were outnumbered’

Alivio said the soldiers were moving ahead slowly when they were fired upon by about 400 gunmen, who he said belonged to the MILF and the Abu Sayyaf.

Alivio said the soldiers retaliated and the heavy firefight lasted for about 10 hours.

Alivio said the headless bodies “were (those of) the missing soldiers during the firefight.”

“We were outnumbered, that’s the reason we suffered heavy casualties,” Alivio said.

Tuesday’s casualties were the most the military had suffered in a single encounter in recent years. In 2005, 12 soldiers were killed in a clash with the Abu Sayyaf in Patikul town in Sulu province.

Marine officials in Manila said they still had no information on whether the MILF was responsible for the “treacherous” ambush.

Marines spokesperson Lt. Col. Ariel Caculitan blamed “lawless elements” and the Abu Sayyaf for the ambush.

“Definitely, there will be some actions and investigations as to what really happened Tuesday,” Caculitan told reporters.

“If there was participation of some MILF members, then we would have to seek the intervention of the Coordinating Committee on the Cessation of Hostilities (CCCH) considering that the government and the MILF are currently holding peace talks and we have a ceasefire,” he said.

Acts of ‘barbarism’

Told that MILF officials were blaming the military for not coordinating with them when they entered the MILF area, Caculitan said while the area might have been MILF, a lapse in coordination was “not a go-signal to consider attacking Marine troops.”

He said it was possible that the firefight, which started at 10 a.m., lasted long because “other lawless groups” joined in, “considering blood relations and other connections in the community.”

“It was very treacherous ... our vehicles were even torched,” Caculitan said.

The Abu Sayyaf also provoked outrage and disgust from Islamic scholars and ordinary Filipinos when they beheaded seven workers in Jolo in April this year. Malacañang branded that incident “an act of barbarism.”

In 2000, the same group of bandits beheaded two school teachers as a “birthday gift” to then President Joseph Estrada after the government rejected rebel demands in exchange for the release of hostages they were holding.

In June 2001, the Abu Sayyaf beheaded Sobero as an “Independence Day gift” to President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo.

There have been a number of low points in the history of military efforts to stamp out the Abu Sayyaf as well as the communist rebels.

In May 2000, Abu Sayyaf bandits killed 13 soldiers in Basilan’s Lantawan town, mutilating some of the corpses.

In August 2000, the military suffered one of the biggest losses in the war against insurgents when communist New People’s Army rebels killed 17 soldiers in fighting in Himamaylan town in Negros Occidental province.

In November 2001, NPA guerrillas ambushed an Army unit in Compostela Valley province, killing 18 soldiers.

In February 2005, Moro National Liberation Front guerrillas killed 13 Marines in an ambush in Patikul, Sulu. With reports from PDI Research, Jeoffrey Maitem, Inquirer Mindanao, and Reuters

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/headline80pct.jpg

2 decades from now the u.s will most likely will be broke. japan and china are the two countries that are buying american treasury bonds in the billions. america has become a borrower. its over for america. they have too many latinos and blacks emigrating to that country. latinos and blacks are not known to be innovative people. look at the people emigrating to america, eritrean, kenyan,sudanese,etiopians, mexicans. those are not smart people. they are known to be gangs in america. its over for america and western europe because those are the type of people who are emigrating to their countries. the power shift will be in asia. asian are smart and innovative country and they dont allow blacks and latinos in their country. not like north america and western europe.

hahahahaha. plz tell me you guys arent gonna let him get away with that.

@TJ, @iqacis, @AH-7Raja, @cruizer, @papi chulo & etc.

my views is this :

1. the economic power of china will sooner or later became a military power to reckon.

2. china and the us will not start a nuclear war. but china will encroached and will try to annex the islands and lands they think they owned a hundred years or a thousand year ago.

3. whether the US likes it or not they will be involved in a future war with china directly or indirectly.

if they don't want to get involve they might as well remove their military forces in Asia and let the Russians come in. :)

4. for the balance of forces in asia, the US or the Russian must show their presence in south china sea. australia is not a regional power and it is only complementing the political and military options of the US and UK.

5. though we did not like the unfair previous mutual defense treaty and the previous military base treaty, and the recent Visiting Forces Agreement with the US, we don't have any choice but let the US have their VFA, or their forward or permanent bases in the Philippines if they want to. Especially we have the weakest military establishment in Southeast Asia.

6. however if the Americans choose to have their bases here or continue the VFA, there must be a fair military treaty unlike the previous one, they have to pay rental, and the treaty must respect the provisions of our constitution, especially in matters of crimes committed by their forces while they were here inside our national territories.

7. In any new treaty, it should specify that US is bound to help and/or defend the Philippine territories, whether the territory is acquired through historical rights (Sabah) or acquired through the UN Convention on the Law of Sea (reference our Kalayaan Islands Group near the Spratly Group and the Scarborough Reef in the South China Sea.

8. It should specify in the new treaty that unlike the present Mutual Defense Treaty where it mentioned that the US shall help the Philippines only if the attack came from the Pacific side (Pacific Ocean). The new treaty must emphasize that they were bind to help / defend our territory wherever directions in the compass the attack originated and must include the mentioned conditions as mentioned above regarding the extent of the Philippine sovereign territories as per our Constitution and as specified in the UN Law of Sea Conference.

9. In the new treaty it should be worded clearly that the US "will" (not use the word "shall") defend the Philippines from foreign attack whether it came from the North (Chinese Taiwan), from the northwest (China mainland), from the west (Vietnam), from the southeast (Malaysia), and from the south (Indonesia).

I don't think any attack will come from the US since in our east side (Pacific Ocean side) is the US territories of Marianas and the Carolines islands. Further east is the state of Hawaii. :lol:

10. The old Mutual Defence Treaty should be re-negotiated or a new Mutual Defense Treaty must include the avove conditions and it should be ratified by the US Congress. (Pls note the present Mutual Defense Treaty was never ratified by the US Congress, the implementation of that incase of an attack defended on the whims or decisions of the US President.

OR perhaps we can make a deal with the US that they can have a perpetual military base in our country with the above conditions provided they will return to our country their US territory of Marianas and the and their former territory of Carolines islands (which I reckoned is a US Commonwealth now). :lol: :banana: :banana:

Videos of the burial of Marines killed in Basilan.

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9045/Saksi-Marines-slain-in-Basilan-battle-buried-with-honors




Hunt for the killers.

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9046/Saksi-Arroyo-orders-hunt-for-those-who-beheaded-marines-in-Basilan




Lim okeys military deployment in Manila - the next battlefield

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9047/Saksi-Lim-okays-military-deployment-in-Manila

Go marines...
let us all pay tribute to our gallant and heroic marines who were brutally killed in the line of duty by the barbaric bandits (CPPNPA, MILF, Abu Sayyaf) who are trying to assert their puny existence in our peace loving country...

Buti pa ata si Erap, he went an "all out war" against the MILF and was able to calm down the Mindanao area. But then, they started to regroup and became powerful again because of some politicians and financial assistance from somewhere else.

On that video, It seems that the firefight was totally a snafu. The way those GMA reporters account of the actual battle seems unreal or they are just not that close to the entire encounter as compared to the timeline of the event.
A firefight that last from 10 am until 7 pm is really a very long firefight.

I big salute to those brave marines for doing their job and prayers to those who perished.

That is the reason why Erap is very popular among Mindanaoans simply because he got the balls to act on it. He was able to invade and occupy Abu Bakar, an MILF stronghold which was shamefully returned to them during this administration. Matagal ng problema ito at walang presidente maliban kay Erap ang totoong umaksyon sa sitwasyon ng Mindanao.

^^ erap was maybe popular with some of the mindanawans of bisaya, ilocano, and ilonggo descent, but not with muslim mindanawans and the christian mindanawans who live in the mixed religion towns and cities.

An insurgency cannot be resolved through military means alone.

Hindi naman relihiyon ang pinaguusapan dito kundi yung gulo na nililikha ng mga yan na halos hindi matapos tapos. You gotta be in Mindanao to hear their sentiments. Ive been there before and I know what it's like.

show your support to the Philippine Marines go to their site

http://www.philippinemarinecorps.mil.ph

^^ It's not really religion. It's like the apparent reason is religion but there's more than that. Nonetheless, these secessionist groups involve themselves into peace negotiations only to continue their old ways. How can they prove their sincerity if they continue their association with the known terror groups?

It's like denying you're not eating anything even if your mouth is full. They admit the attack but denied their linkages with the ASG even if these men were beheaded.

Well, let's wait for the investigation. I'm just pointing out the inconsistencies in the claims of the MILF. For instance, the MILF's claim that they were compelled to do a counter attack because the Marines "intruded into [their] territory and [their] forces were alarmed and had to defend their positions". If the MILF attack was done in self-defense, why did the GMA7 footage show the Marines seeking cover behind their trucks and coconut trees, "looking like they were not sure where the shooting was coming from"? There were also soldiers trying to counter attack with a mortar, which would not fire. Their trucks were stalled in the mud, and it was raining hard.

Does the mere unexpected presence of the Marines in MILF territory (with clearly no means or ability to launch an attack) qualify as an offensive?

Moreover, even though the encounter transpired in MILF territory and the MILF admit responsibility for the attack, they could not explain why the soldiers were beheaded. On the other hand, they deny that their forces were responsible for the beheadings. The MILF have a policy not to harm their captives. Beheading is the trademark of the ASG.

Did the ASG just happen on the scene after the soldiers were killed, and behead the Marines without the knowledge of the MILF? To use the cliche, tell that to the Marines!

Your right dude!

to set the matter straight, all the lands and seas in the philippine archipelago were the sovereign territory of thePhilippine government.

the MILF or the MNLF only temporarily controlled a part of our territory.

Halos walang pakialam ang ating government with regard to national territory...
Check this out:

1 Spratly Islands
2 Sabah
3 Scarborough Shoal
4 Palmas or Miangas Island

All these islands/ islets are nearest to the philippines compared with other countries but we did nothing. Even slightly poorer than us (indonesia) claimes the Palmas Island and we did nothing...

That is the reason why Erap is very popular among Mindanaoans simply because he got the balls to act on it. He was able to invade and occupy Abu Bakar, an MILF stronghold which was shamefully returned to them during this administration. Matagal ng problema ito at walang presidente maliban kay Erap ang totoong umaksyon sa sitwasyon ng Mindanao.

TOTOO!

Hindi naman relihiyon ang pinaguusapan dito kundi yung gulo na nililikha ng mga yan na halos hindi matapos tapos. You gotta be in Mindanao to hear their sentiments. Ive been there before and I know what it's like.

As a matter of I am frequently in mindanao. the craters made by the 105 howitzers of the erap war are still there, ginagawang lubluban ng kalabaw. a few of the schoolhouses hit by artillery are still in disrepair.

MNLF led by misuari is more of a marxist movement.
MILF is led by the muslim royal families.
the Abu Sayyaf is an extremist faction of the MILF. They have an overlapping membership with the MILF (like an MILF warrior will have nephew in the abu syyaf)

your sentiment seem to be more of a davao mindanawan view.

MILF :P

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/6-1.jpg

however one of the trucks in their convoy got stuck in the mud.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/7-1.jpg

Their convoy stopped and returned to the truck stuck in the mud.

The marine convoy convoy composed of about 150 soldiers were fired upon by about 300 to 400 moro guerillas hiding in the bushes.


The dump truck is stuck in the mud. So what do you do since you're in hostile territory? Do you sit in the back of the towing truck and watch how the dump truck is being towed ?

*ina ! ! ! a smart CO would have at least deployed his troops to form a defensive perimeter around the disabled vehicle. a smarter one would have just left the disabled vehicle.

In the first place it was stupid to use a 2WD vehicle in roads of that condition :ohno:

hey guys, i was browsing youtube for Philippine military vids and i stumbled upon this >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEy3tlLW0IE

wat the heck happend? when? where? Bolo vs. M16 aint a good idea

As a matter of I am frequently in mindanao. the craters made by the 105 howitzers of the erap war are still there, ginagawang lubluban ng kalabaw. a few of the schoolhouses hit by artillery are still in disrepair.

MNLF led by misuari is more of a marxist movement.
MILF is led by the muslim royal families.
the Abu Sayyaf is an extremist faction of the MILF. They have an overlapping membership with the MILF (like an MILF warrior will have nephew in the abu syyaf)

your sentiment seem to be more of a davao mindanawan view.

just because Misuari before is a professor of Political Science in UP before he founded the MNLF does not make him a marxist. anyhow there is nothing wrong to believe in marxism or in any political beliefs under the sun.

to let others have their own beliefs is democracy and guaranteed in the US Constitution, the UN Declaration of Human Rights, and in the Philippine Constitution's Bill of Rights.

btw about MIsuari, since he was Manila-oriented as he pursued his education in Manila and later became a Professor in our State University, the government should not antagonize him. He is more closer to our christian-dominated government compared to other rebel leaders of MILF or MNLF who were educated in Saudi or Egypt. His alledged crime was due to when his followers fought a brief battle with the government forces when Misuari fallen from grace with the Palace. His other alledged crime was when they said he fled to Sabah a foreign-territory when the government is looking for him that time. If our government is claiming Sabah as part of our country under historical rights, then how can the government said he fled to another country.

Misuari can be a bridge of reconciliation between the Moro rebels and our government and between the christian and the muslim in our beloved country.

IMO what happened was not a prepared ambush. A prepared ambush would have been precipitated by the use of mines and rpgs to disable the vehicles, specifically the single APC.

My belief is that a target of oppurtunity arose when the dump truck got stuck in the mud and the marine forces got separated.

And the ambush did not entail a battalion-sized force of 400-450 MILF, at least not initially. If it did, with such evidently poorly led marines, they would have been annahilated.

The marines are well trained and highly motivated soldiers. They are some of the finest infantry. In this fiasco I put the blame entirely on the marines' officers.

The dump truck is stuck in the mud. So what do you do since you're in hostile territory? Do you sit in the back of the towing truck and watch how the dump truck is being towed ?

*ina ! ! ! a smart CO would have at least deployed his troops to form a defensive perimeter around the disabled vehicle. a smarter one would have just left the disabled vehicle.

In the first place it was stupid to use a 2WD vehicle in roads of that condition :ohno:


to revise

just because Misuari before is a Political professor in UP before he founded the MNLF does not make him a marxist.

btw about MIsuari, since he was Manila-oriented as he pursued his education in Manila and later became a Professor in our State University, the government should not antagonize him. He is more closer to our christian-dominated government compared to other rebel leaders of MILF or MNLF. His alledged crime was due to when his followers fought a brief battle with the government forces when Misuari fallen from grace with the Palace.

My intent in pointing out the difference between the MILF (Moro Islamic Liberation Front) and the MNLF (Moro National Liberation Front) is to illustrate the "part religious nature" of the insurgency/secessionist movement in mindanao.

BTW nur missuari was a member of the Kabataang Makabayan (KM). I'm sure you know that all KMs are marxists and are members of the Communist Party of the Philippines.

I have no beef against marxists, as practically all self respecting UPdil students during the marcos years used marxist analysis to understand societal troubles of the era. we only differed on the praxis part.

Nur missuari is in jail because he called for an rebellion (in front of TV no less) when he was told that he would no longer be reappointed as Governor of the ARMM. The position was to be (as it is now) an elective position. Several people persihed in that brief rebellion.

Long time no post.. Sino me video nung actual gunfight?
Medyo nashock ako dun sa nangyari.. Yun na ata pinakamalaking casualty count ng marines ah..

Long time no post.. Sino me video nung actual gunfight?
Medyo nashock ako dun sa nangyari.. Yun na ata pinakamalaking casualty count ng marines ah..

see the previous pages for the Battle of Tipo Tipo, Basilan last 10th July

^salamat. Naghahanap ako ng video nun sa Youtube eh.. wala ko makita.. :D

Hunt fo those who beheaded Marines in Basilan

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/9046/Saksi-Arroyo-orders-hunt-for-those-who-beheaded-Marines-in-Basilan



Wounded in Basilan

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/9054/4-soldiers-wounded-in-Basilan-now-in-hospital



Arroyo orders hunt

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/9055/Arroyo-orders-hunt-for-those-who-beheaded-Marines



Marines accorded full honor

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/9056/Marines-killed-in-Basilan-accorded-full-honors



http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/9057/Trillanes-to-call-probe-of-Battle-of-Tipo-Tipo



Akbayan slams attack that left 14 Marines dead
07/13/2007 | 11:39 AM

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Leftist party-list group Akbayan on Friday slammed the Moro Islamic Liberation Front attack in Basilan that left 14 marines dead, 10 of whom were beheaded.

"It is simply deplorable. No political ends could be achieved by such brutality," Akbayan chairman emeritus Etta Rosales said in a statement.

Rosales, who is also outgoing Akbayan Representative, noted that “soldiers and rebels alike are bound by internationally recognized humanitarian principles."

She also called for a review of military activities in Mindanao.

"Military retaliation would not be enough. The crisis in Mindanao begs for strategic political solutions," the Akbayan official said.

About 100 marines belonging to the 1st Marine Brigade were returning to camp after checking reports that abducted Italian priest Giancarlo Bossi was in Tipo-Tipo town in the island-province of Basilan when they clashed with hundreds of gunmen.

The marines brought back four dead comrades from the seven-hour firefight and 10 others declared missing in action were later found beheaded.

The military initially tagged the Abu Sayyaf terrorist group but the MILF, which is engaged in peace talks with the government, owned up to the attack.

The MILF blamed the military for the clash, saying it could have avoided if government troops had not encroached on their “bailiwick" and “coordinated" with them. The Moro rebel group also denied having beheaded the marines.

Another Akbayan leader also backed calls for an inquiry on the incident.

"It is strange how a group whose strength has been downplayed consistently by the military could possibly overpower our Marines," said Akbayan Rep. Risa Hontiveros.

“The allegation that the soldiers carried defective armament and poor equipment, if proven true, should be a wake up call for the military zealots in the Cabinet. While they are busy exploiting the military for their own political survival, our soldiers are suffering due to insufficient equipment," Hontiveros said.

The Commission on Elections earlier proclaimed Akbayan to have obtained the needed votes for a seat in the House of Representatives. Hontiveros is reportedly their top nominee. -GMANews.TV

.

AFP explains malfunctioning arms.

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/9032/AFP-explains-malfunctioning-arms




Lady-officer among Marines in Basilan battle.

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/9027/Lady-officer-among-Marines-in-Basilan-battle



Trillanes to call prove of Battle of Tipo-Tipo

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/9057/Trillanes-to-call-probe-of-Battle-of-Tipo-Tipo





http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/Basilan2.jpg
Marine Brig. Gen. Juancho Sabban on Thursday pays his respect to comrades
killed during a firefight with Moro rebels in Basilan last Tuesday. AP




http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/Basilan1.jpg

military vehicles used in the Battle of Tipo Tipo inspected for damages.




From the MILF website :http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/basilan3.jpg

to set the matter straight, all the lands and seas in the philippine archipelago were the sovereign territory of thePhilippine government.

the MILF or the MNLF only temporarily controlled a part of our territory.

Obviously, the word "territory" is being used in a different context, i.e. the MILF hideout.

My intent in pointing out the difference between the MILF (Moro Islamic Liberation Front) and the MNLF (Moro National Liberation Front) is to illustrate the "part religious nature" of the insurgency/secessionist movement in mindanao.

BTW nur missuari was a member of the Kabataang Makabayan (KM). I'm sure you know that all KMs are marxists and are members of the Communist Party of the Philippines.

I have no beef against marxists, as practically all self respecting UPdil students during the marcos years used marxist analysis to understand societal troubles of the era. we only differed on the praxis part.

Nur missuari is in jail because he called for an rebellion (in front of TV no less) when he was told that he would no longer be reappointed as Governor of the ARMM. The position was to be (as it is now) an elective position. Several people persihed in that brief rebellion.

actually MILF is the breakaway group after MNLF signed a peace treaty with GRP. Hashim Salamat the founder of MILF was a fomer commander of MNLF.

btw I read in the papers that the Governor of Basilan was a former MNLF and also one of the founding leader of Abu Sayaff. I think the allegations that the Abu Sayaff was founded by a certain group in our military in order to infiltrate the moro guerillas (then became a lost command) can be confirmed if someone or you can research the connections between the founding leader of Abus and our military. perhaps you can start a kind of investigative journalism on that subject since you always visit the south ... just for fun or just for the heck of it.

[quote ]the Kabataang Makabayan (KM). I'm sure you know that all KMs are marxists and are members of the Communist Party of the Philippines.[quote]

you mentioned it as if you have stumbled into a new discovery..:)
anyhow communist is a misnomer... you can attain that communism stage after perfecting socialism which may take a century ...... and before socialism stage ... have to pass the nationald democracy stage.

so if we follow the theory of marxism..... there is no communist government nor a communist party... nor a communist yet in this world or in our time.

by the way do you know that Jesus Christ and the first christian group were the first socialist as they practice a way of life that is synonymous with socialism. that the Mayflower pilgrim from England that officially colonize and settled the US East coast practice a kind of socialism that makes the US the birthplace of modern socialism. do you know also that social security principles, cooperatives, etc were borrowed from socialism principles.
That western european countries like Sweden practice socialism, that UK, France, Italy and other western european countries have socialist government once in a while.

do you know also that because the English (later the British) and the US government hated Russia (later the Soviets) even during the time of the Russian Czarist government, these Anglo-Saxons hated Russians so much that they demonize the word communism during the cold war era, that's why we Pinoy because of relentless western (and american) propaganda mistakenly thought that communism is synonymous with the word devil.

btw that is just my view, i am neither a communist nor a socialist, nor a leftist. I am just a simple, poor, non-conformist, and a nationalist Pinoy. a kind of a devil's advocate. :)

btw... my komrad :) ...... perhaps we should end this topic of marxist or communist since we are deviating from the defense topic in this defense forum.

“NEVER WAS SO MUCH OWED BY SO MANY TO SO FEW” Prime Minister Winston Churchill

spearhead Posted: Jul 11 2007, 09:52 PM

Comandante

Group: Paratroops
Posts: 275
Member No.: 655
Joined: 14-February 06

An old footage of Phil. Marines operation against ASG surfaced in Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu2ppMbQA5Q...related&search=

Marines, ASTIG.

courtesy of the Phil Defense Forum :

@spearhead wondering what is your username in this SSC Forum :)

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/atribute.jpg



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IMO what happened was not a prepared ambush. A prepared ambush would have been precipitated by the use of mines and rpgs to disable the vehicles, specifically the single APC.

My belief is that a target of oppurtunity arose when the dump truck got stuck in the mud and the marine forces got separated.

And the ambush did not entail a battalion-sized force of 400-450 MILF, at least not initially. If it did, with such evidently poorly led marines, they would have been annahilated.

The marines are well trained and highly motivated soldiers. They are some of the finest infantry. In this fiasco I put the blame entirely on the marines' officers.

I totally agree.

So why do the AFP troops continue to lack strategy and tactics in this war against insurgents?

Ok, so we should blame the officers. How do we go about getting rid of them? We should do something about it now before more lives get killed. :ohno:

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/c9f2a247.jpg

QUOTE
A Filipino sales representative demonstrates a Philippine made 9mm sub-machine gun during a yearly gun show held inside a local mall in Quezon City north of Manila Philippines, on 12 July 2007. The Philippine National Police (PNP) and the Association of Firearms and Ammunition Dealers (AFAD) told that the annual gun show will help in promoting responsible gun ownership as well as supporting the government’s campaign against loose firearms. EPA/MIKE F. ALQUINTO





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QUOTE
Filipino gun enthusiasts view a Philippine made 9mm sub-machine gun during a yearly gun show held inside a local mall in Quezon City north of Manila Philippines, on 12 July 2007. The Philippine National Police (PNP) and the Association of Firearms and Ammunition Dealers (AFAD) told that the annual gun show will help in promoting responsible gun ownership as well as supporting the government’s campaign against loose firearms. EPA/MIKE F. ALQUINTO

TheAvenger

you mentioned it as if you have stumbled into a new discovery..:)
anyhow communist is a misnomer... you can attain that communism stage after perfecting socialism which may take a century ...... and before socialism stage ... have to pass the nationald democracy stage.

so if we follow the theory of marxism..... there is no communist government nor a communist party... nor a communist yet in this world or in our time.

by the way do you know that Jesus Christ and the first christian group were the first socialist as they practice a way of life that is synonymous with socialism. that the Mayflower pilgrim from England that officially colonize and settled the US East coast practice a kind of socialism that makes the US the birthplace of modern socialism. do you know also that social security principles, cooperatives, etc were borrowed from socialism principles.
That western european countries like Sweden practice socialism, that UK, France, Italy and other western european countries have socialist government once in a while.

do you know also that because the English (later the British) and the US government hated Russia (later the Soviets) even during the time of the Russian Czarist government, these Anglo-Saxons hated Russians so much that they demonize the word communism during the cold war era, that's why we Pinoy because of relentless western (and american) propaganda mistakenly thought that communism is synonymous with the word devil.

btw that is just my view, i am neither a communist nor a socialist, nor a leftist. I am just a simple, poor, non-conformist, and a nationalist Pinoy. a kind of a devil's advocate. :)

btw... my komrad :) ...... perhaps we should end this topic of marxist or communist since we are deviating from the defense topic in this defense forum.

Interesting points you have there. But communist propaganda also demonizes democratic principles. Communism/socialism, IMO, breads more segregation of classes among citizens (hence, more corruption) than democracy.

I think there isn't a true democracy or true socialist government that can benefit us because we are not perfect human beings bounded by perfect principles that these ideologies provide.

What is important though is that we maintain balance but stick to a unifying system that the majority will willfully adhere through from there own beliefs. That is the leaders' responsibility to maintain these beliefs....

Posted: Jun 29 2007, 07:23 Pm

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QUOTE
MANILA, Philippines -- Admiral Timothy J. Keating, Commander, U.S. Pacific Command, met with Philippine President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo in the Presidential Palace Thursday morning. Admiral Keating, who assumed the U.S. Pacific Command post last March, was accompanied to the meeting by U.S. Ambassador to the Philippines Kristie Kenney. During the visit to the Philippines, Admiral Keating met with senior military and civilian leaders to discuss issues of mutual interest. (American Embassy, Manila photo by Ben Baguyo)

Saturday, July 14, 2007


‘Punitive’military action in Basilan


Hundreds more Marines were deployed to Basilan to hunt for Islamic militants who killed their comrades as they were searching for a kidnapped Italian priest, the military said Friday.

The 500-strong battalion was dispatched to Basilan after President Arroyo ordered the military “hunt down and arrest” militants blamed for killing 14 Marines in an ambush on Wednesday.

“One Marine battalion will proceed to Basilan to beef up the forces of First Marine Brigade in the area,” Marine spokesman Ariel Caculitan told reporters.

The Marines are also tasked with widening the search for Father Giancarlo Bossi, abducted from his parish on June 10 and thought to be held by militants, Ca*culitan said.

The slain Marines had been investigating a tip-off Bossi was being held in the area when they were ambushed near Tipo-Tipo town.

Ten of the killed Marines were beheaded.

The AFP Public Information chief, Lt. Col. Bartolome Ba*carro said Friday: “We are pre-positioning our troops in the area. It’s more of a punitive action against the perpetrators. We will be running after them.”

The military has accused the Abu Sayyaf, an Islamic extremist group known to have ties with al-Qaeda, and the Moro Islamic Liberation Front of joining forces to launch the attack.

Caculitan said troops had been pulled from nearby Jolo, where the military has been bogged down hunting for members of the Jemaah Islamiah extremist network and like-minded Abu Sayyaf.

He said the reinforcement was “meant to physically locate and rescue Father Bossi when the opportunity materializes.”

The 12,000-strong MILF, which has a three-year-old truce in place as it negotiates peace with the government, says its forces attacked the Marines after they entered MILF territory without advance notice.

The group has denied any involvement in the beheadings, and says four of its members were also killed in the clash.

The 57-year-old Bossi, of the Pontifical Institute for Foreign Missions (PIME), was seized by unknown heavily armed men near his parish church in the town of Payao in Zamboanga Sibugay.

The government had earlier said Bossi’s kidnappers could either be Abu Sayyaf men or renegade members of the MILF. The MILF has denied any involvement in the abduction and initially helped in the hunt for his captors.

Bacarro said the Marine Landing Battalion Team 1 left its base in Luuk, Sulu, Friday morning beef up the two Marine and army brigades already in Basilan.

In a related development, the Armed Forces on Friday temporary suspended the use of 81mm mortar rounds supplied to the troops in Basilan after some of them misfired in the middle of an encounter between the Marines and Islamic militants.

Video footage taken by a television news crew that was caught in the crossfire had shown that several mortar rounds failed to fire during the nine-hour gun*battle in Tipo-Tipo last Tuesday.

Bacarro said Marine and army troops in Basilan would instead be using a different stock of 81mm rounds.

“It is probable that a mortar round does not fire, but it is very rare that this they don’t fire at the same time . . . this lot number will be investigated,” Bacarro said.

The AFP official said the lot number of the misfired rounds revealed they were bought from the US military, although he could not immediately say when.

He added that the rounds in question might have been damaged after being exposed to the elements while being brought to the frontline.

Bacarro said the round might malfunction when portions of the ammunition exposed to moisture as soldiers carry them at backpacks when crossing rivers or getting drenched in rains.

Each 81mm round costs a*round $134, and its fuse another $10.



More marines sent to battle, but we all know the routine.....

FIGHT-FIGHT-FIGHT, tapos TALK-TALK-TALK....then FIGHT-FIGHT-FIGHT, then TALK-TALK-TALK, FIGHT-FIGHT-FIGHT, TALK-TALK-TALK, what a joke!!!... :ohno:

A better plan needs to be implemented and followed through...this is more waste of time for everybody... :ohno:

More marines sent to battle, but we all know the routine.....

FIGHT-FIGHT-FIGHT, tapos TALK-TALK-TALK....then FIGHT-FIGHT-FIGHT, then TALK-TALK-TALK, FIGHT-FIGHT-FIGHT, TALK-TALK-TALK, what a joke!!!... :ohno:

A better plan needs to be implemented and followed through...this is more waste of time for everybody... :ohno:


The AFP official said the lot number of the misfired rounds revealed they were bought from the US military, although he could not immediately say when.

Each 81mm round costs a*round $134, and its fuse another $10.

US $ 134.00 = about 5,000 pesos.

wow perhaps the rebels can buy it cheaper in the blackmarket.



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Interesting points you have there. But communist propaganda also demonizes democratic principles. Communism/socialism, IMO, breads more segregation of classes among citizens (hence, more corruption) than democracy.

I think there isn't a true democracy or true socialist government that can benefit us because we are not perfect human beings bounded by perfect principles that these ideologies provide.

What is important though is that we maintain balance but stick to a unifying system that the majority will willfully adhere through from there own beliefs. That is the leaders' responsibility to maintain these beliefs....

in my view socialism remove social classes, that is the main reasons Karl Marx invented that theory. everybody is equal (except the top brass in the govt, they were the children of God :) ,
which is also the same in capitalist society, the top brass in the govt were the children of God :) )

however in my view socialism makes people lazy and loss their initiatives since everybody is equal except the government people.

capitalism is the one that segregate people to different social classes :
elite, rich, middle class, poor, and the very poor. capitalism makes people materialistic, you have to strive to make more profit otherwise you won't survive in the system. or you have to became an OFW or became an Overseas Filipino Professionals, or you have to migrate to more develop countries in order to survive. capitalism makes poor people more poorer while the rich became more richer.

both socialism/communism and capitalism were economic system.
while demoracy is a kind of government system.

a government with a socialist/communist economic system can be democratic or totalitarian.

a government with a capitalist economic system can be democratic or totalitarian.

in both socialist/communist and capitalist system, the government top brass
were always the special kind of animal... exploiting the people :lol:

the US and Western Europe were practicing capitalism but it seems their governments were more democratic. :)

the Philippines is practicing capitalism but it seems our government is more totalitarian and corrupt than democratic. :lol:

in my view a mixture of socialist and capitalist economic system with a democratic kind of government is the best for the Philippines.

HOWEVER in our country since both the government and the civilian society were contaminated by corruptions, in any change of system, a kind of a machiavelian President (or a benign dictator) must rule us in the first 5 years, inorder to weed out the corrupt ones.


The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke -Tears of the Sun

http://www.gmanews.tv/blogs/joe-torres/archives/19-Basilan-An-introduction.html


http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/Introduction.jpg


Basilan, a place I will always treasure for moments and memories that will never come back, is again in the news. Tragedy hit the beautiful island I love. Bandits and armed men ambushed soldiers who were looking for a kidnapped priest. Here’s an article I wrote several years ago to help us understand the island.


THE TRAIL of the Abu Sayyaf led the government in the past to a hunt for alleged foreign terrorists and a search for clues outside the country. But the roots of the problem are deep in the southern province of Basilan, a collection of islands and islets at the southern tip of the Philippine archipelago.

Basilan is a netherworld intermittently lit by the fires of war between families, between tribes, between natives and colonialists, between people and government.

But it is not war that bothers the Basileños, it is inequity. Though surrounded by an abundant sea and boasting fertile land and virgin forests, the province is among the poorest in the country. Seventy-five percent of the island's food supply has to be imported from nearby provinces.

The root of the problem in Basilan is land. While Muslims constitute 71 percent of the Basilan population, Christians own 75 percent of the land. Compounding the land problem, the Chinese control 75 percent of business.

At the turn of the century, corporations such as Sime-Darby and Menzi controlled the land, planting it to rubber, coffee, coconut, African palm oil and pepper -- all for export.

The land has since been broken up with the passage of the Comprehensive Agrarian Reform Law. Some 17,900 hectares of agricultural estates above 50 hectares have been titled and distributed to some 50,450 farmer-beneficiaries who have organized themselves into cooperatives.

Most of the agrarian reform beneficiaries, however, are Visayan settlers, who were brought to the island by the American firms they worked for early in this century.

The law has virtually bypassed the native Muslim Yakan population, which comprise 70 percent of the population.

The chief problem is neglect by the national government, some local executives say. Since the EDSA phenomenon in 1986, the province seldom received funds from the national government. Unless money pours into the province, peace will never come, the officials say.

Without the funds, there can be no basic services. Before the arrival of American soldiers in 2001, the 230-kilometer provincial road has been pockmarked for years. The 134,900-hectare province has only two dump trucks then, donated in 1974, as well as one bulldozer, two grader and one payloader.

Residents also complain that they have not benefited from the Countrywide Development funds, which are disbursed by members of the House of Representatives.

The Department of Interior and Local Government insists that money has been sent to the province. The internal revenue allotment for Basilan has grown over the last five years.

The clannish attitude of politicians and residents has tied down development efforts in the province. Progress is shackled by the petty politics of various interest groups, which is in turn rooted in the long history of family feuds, clan conflicts and ideological rivalry.


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http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/latest/9087/Saksi-Biazon-says-ceasefire-may-have-led-to-death-of-marines-in-Basilan


IMG]http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/genbiazon-1.jpg[/IMG]

Senator Biazon - an ex Marine General. and former AFP Chief of Staff during Cory's government.

The AFP official said the lot number of the misfired rounds revealed they were bought from the US military, although he could not immediately say when.

Each 81mm round costs a*round $134, and its fuse another $10.

US $ 134.00 = about 5,000 pesos.

wow perhaps the rebels can buy it cheaper in the blackmarket.



It's ironic that the AFP official could not say when it was bought but was quick to point out it was from the U.S. military.

He probably doesn't even know how the rounds were stored and handled. That's a story we probably would never hear about. :ohno:

Slapstick knowledge, slapstick training, and slapstick common sense seems to be the only thing pervading inside AFP leadership.

Oh, by the way, surely the "costs" for each round is something the AFP or media would never forget and ignore. They seem to place more emphasis on that instead of training AFP troops the proper way (like implementing proper COM/SEC procedures or setting up proper defense perimeters when you have your truck stuck in the mud).... :ohno:

I respect our AFP troops, but AFP leadership needs to change......

^^ i recall reading a newspaper article several years back bout a scandal in ordnace procurement. The rounds being bought only had a year of shelf life left.

today's news articles say that the percentage of mortar round duds was 20%. that's much too high for such a simple type of ordnance. expired na siguro ang rounds na yan.

@avenger

if you were a UP Diliman student of the 70's or 80's and not a leftist you definitely belonged to a very very small minority in UP. Wala ka rin sigurong org. kahit sa vanguard karamihan leftist. you would be what we used to call the gad dems :lol:

BTW a number of european gov'ts are leftist. Our org used to get funding from the social democrats of west germany, around the equivalent of pesos 100K in the 80's :)

I totally agree.

So why do the AFP troops continue to lack strategy and tactics in this war against insurgents?

Ok, so we should blame the officers. How do we go about getting rid of them? We should do something about it now before more lives get killed. :ohno:

do you remember the old adage "there are no bad troops, only bad officers" ?

this is especially true when talking about the highly regarded marine foot soldiers.

there will undoubtedly be a reckoning, maybe not right now, but definitely some officers' heads will be rolling (figuratively speaking).

^^ i recall reading a newspaper article several years back bout a scandal in ordnace procurement. The rounds being bought only had a year of shelf life left.

today's news articles say that the percentage of mortar round duds was 20%. that's much too high for such a simple type of ordnance. expired na siguro ang rounds na yan.

Those mortar rounds have a shelf life of more than 30 years if handled properly on their cylindrical container or ammo box of 4s.
From the video, you can see that the rounds are on the ground and most likely the Propellant got wet.

The scandal that I read about years ago are for those ammos of the Howitzer cannons, they are far more expensive that those 81MM rounds.

http://www.gmanews.tv/blogs/joe-torres/archives/19-Basilan-An-introduction.html


Interesting article by Joe Torres there. Although his knowledge of the geography and demographics of Basilan is quite extensive, I disagree with officials saying that "The chief problem is neglect by the national government".

The national government is PART of the problem (ie. leadership/corrupt politicians), NOT the CHIEF problem...

His reference to Muslims, Christians, Chinese businessmen, etc. etc. to me is very interesting, but more like journalistic flamboyancy to portray the problems there as a CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS.

While that does deserve some truth to it, it only sidelines the real IMMEDIATE issues of safety, security, and the need for economic development (regardless of religious background). When you have the BASIC building blocks (food, safety, shelter) in place, then we can start about helping improve the masses by improving education, jobs, etc. etc. Some will complain the poor didn't have these in the first place, hence the terror and fighting. But keep in mind, it's the terrorists, not the poor, who have the money and ideology to evoke the cohesion of terror and fighting in the area.

Your common filipino is a very kind, generous, and hospitable person unlike insurgents who ACT-OUT against their own blood.

You only compound the problem by saying that Christians own the majority of land in a predominant Muslim community. So how is this to change? Should Christians turn around and sell them to Muslims? Should the property titles be traced back and corrected to the proper Muslim owners?

Again, questions about the past always bring back controversial solutions that only continue the debates and problems (without solving the problem).

This is so typical of filipino politics that I have seen, heard, and discussed.

His illustrative views only promote finger-pointing among ourselves at the expense of dissolving our ideas of any sense of hope and integration in the southern Philippines...

The better way, IMO, is to work towards the future and have everyone share in that vision. :)
(You can't do this with extremists).

In addition, Luzon has always historically been the growth machine of the Philippines during western colonization. Although Spain and America have proven their "self-interests" against the filipinos written among common filipino literature, I say that self-interests in the south (ie., A.R.M.M., insurgents) have also suppressed the growth of development, resources, and representation in the south within our Philippine nation.

Everyone wants equality, but it is not always a simple term to define. It comes at the expense of birth, familiy heritage, goodluck/badluck, education, self-education, poverty, self-motivation to learn about others, personality, religious beliefs, etc. etc. It is true we had lots of inequality in our history, but creating it in the future is to turn our heads away from our backs and start looking forward so we can see where we are going. We can't move ahead by looking at the rearview mirror all the time.

The better word is OPPORTUNITY for all, even if it means little by little, one step at a time. Instead, we keep fighting and pointing-fingers. We need to start taking action, like getting rid of our poorly-trained and corrupt politicians/leaders.

That would be one GREAT start.... :)

in my view socialism remove social classes, that is the main reasons Karl Marx invented that theory. everybody is equal (except the top brass in the govt, they were the children of God :) ,
which is also the same in capitalist society, the top brass in the govt were the children of God :) )

however in my view socialism makes people lazy and loss their initiatives since everybody is equal except the government people.

capitalism is the one that segregate people to different social classes :
elite, rich, middle class, poor, and the very poor. capitalism makes people materialistic, you have to strive to make more profit otherwise you won't survive in the system. or you have to became an OFW or became an Overseas Filipino Professionals, or you have to migrate to more develop countries in order to survive. capitalism makes poor people more poorer while the rich became more richer.

both socialism/communism and capitalism were economic system.
while demoracy is a kind of government system.

a government with a socialist/communist economic system can be democratic or totalitarian.

a government with a capitalist economic system can be democratic or totalitarian.

in both socialist/communist and capitalist system, the government top brass
were always the special kind of animal... exploiting the people :lol:

the US and Western Europe were practicing capitalism but it seems their governments were more democratic. :)

the Philippines is practicing capitalism but it seems our government is more totalitarian and corrupt than democratic. :lol:

in my view a mixture of socialist and capitalist economic system with a democratic kind of government is the best for the Philippines.

HOWEVER in our country since both the government and the civilian society were contaminated by corruptions, in any change of system, a kind of a machiavelian President (or a benign dictator) must rule us in the first 5 years, inorder to weed out the corrupt ones.


The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke -Tears of the Sun

Very interesting views there! So basically, different government systems have alot of overlap with each other, good point.

I would like to add to your views.

The key words are SEGREGATION and INTEGRATION...

In my opinion, communism/socialism focuses on primarily on segregation. There will always be the masses and the central government. Case closed.

A democracy/capitalistic system focuses on integration. It doesn't matter if you have poor, middle-class, or rich. In a democracy with a capitalistic system, even the poor have the OPPORTUNITY to become rich. You can't do that in a communist/socialist government.

In our today's world of global supermarkets, global networks, and the connected world-wide internet, the best governments (in my opinion) are those conducive to INTEGRATION....

@avenger

if you were a UP Diliman student of the 70's or 80's and not a leftist you definitely belonged to a very very small minority in UP. Wala ka rin sigurong org. kahit sa vanguard karamihan leftist. you would be what we used to call the gad dems :lol:

BTW a number of european gov'ts are leftist. Our org used to get funding from the social democrats of west germany, around the equivalent of pesos 100K in the 80's :)


i am not a UP students of any circa:) nor am I a leftist nor a rightist :)
i am just a non conformist nationalistic Pinoy.

i am not those rich and bright UP students who became cadre in NPA and died not really knowing that the peasant insurgencies is not really about ideologies but more of the injustices of the government. I am not one of those cadres and members of the Central Committee who chose to be identified with Red China that time not knowing that the common masses disapproves of dealing with china, I am not a member of KM either whose some top leaders chose to run to China when the martial law was declared exposing them as lackeys of Chicom. I preferred the Soviet kind of socialism than the chopsuey kind of China's socialism :)

i am not a leftist if that means being an officially or card carrying member of the CPP or the PKI. but my views is left of center.

I am a right thinking Pinoy nationalist.

^^ right on! :okay:

Kaso mas masarap na ngayon ang Chopsuey~Dimsum than Vodka~Caviar. :lol:

do you remember the old adage "there are no bad troops, only bad officers" ?

this is especially true when talking about the highly regarded marine foot soldiers.

there will undoubtedly be a reckoning, maybe not right now, but definitely some officers' heads will be rolling (figuratively speaking).

I wish GMA and the current admisitration would start inquiring about AFP leadership and start changing the way this leadership is taught at the PMA in Baguio City.

I am really curious now what the Americans are teaching our AFP troops (as allowed by the Philippine government) and how the AFP troops are implementing them. Perhaps the AFP troops are going through a huge learning curve right now.....

That's why I kept repeating in this thread (even before the beheadings) that AFP leadership and training IS VERY IMPORTANT, just as much (if not more) as all the TANKS, APCs, AIRCRAFT, GUNS, and all the other stuff people post here...

Case in point: Why did that Philippine Huey helicopter go down by a kite? There is no way it can crash like that unless it was flying unnecessarily "too low" like in a combat sortie, without proper safety observation precautions. Here in the states, all military aircraft must adhere to FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) rules around populated areas. There are minimum height clearances that must be met around different geographic areas. Combat sorties can only be practiced in designated military training zones.

The "system" and leadership is only as good as the people who administrate, follow, and implement them....

^^ right on! :okay:

Kaso mas masarap na ngayon ang Chopsuey~Dimsum than Vodka~Caviar. :lol:

pero mas cheeky ang russian girls... like those girls in Crimean Peninsula.:) more cheeky than the Amoy.

I am a right thinking Pinoy nationalist.

well of course you are. . . :)

@avenger

if you were a UP Diliman student of the 70's or 80's and not a leftist you definitely belonged to a very very small minority in UP. Wala ka rin sigurong org. kahit sa vanguard karamihan leftist. you would be what we used to call the gad dems :lol:

BTW a number of european gov'ts are leftist. Our org used to get funding from the social democrats of west germany, around the equivalent of pesos 100K in the 80's :)

oh you belong with the socdem :) with the sect gonzales faction ?

i belong to the natbelongtodem anymore :)

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Video of Marines before the battle of Tipo Tipo
you may click with your mouse the below weblink to see the Video.

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9068/GMA-videotapes-marines-before-Basilan-battle


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a religious Marines praying at the Grotto.




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Image of Virgin Mary in Marine camp.




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before the ambush which lead to the debacle in Battle of Tipo-Tipo




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the firefights start here when coming back when they tried to tug the stuck in the mud Daewo trucks.




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they were killed in the battle.




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the firefights suddenly stop after a controversial ceasefire which nobody knows where the ceasefire order came from.




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the dead and wounded loaded to the truck.


The 10 beheaded and mutilated marines were later recovered by the provincial government on the following day of the 11th July.

(If I am not mistaken I have read somewhere that out of the 10 Marines beheaded and mutilated, One is a female.)
You can see in the Video before the battle that there was 2 female Marines, one is the female Marines Ammo officer who is seen alive after the battle.

MANILA STANDARD TODAY
Basilan slays ‘a blow to peace talks’
THE killing of 14 Marines and the beheading of 10 of them during an encounter with Moro Islamic Liberation Front rebels in Tipo Tipo, Basilan, is a big blow to the peace process but it should be treated as “an isolated incident,” the government’s chief negotiator said yesterday.

Rodolfo Garcia said the skirmish took place as a result of a “misunderstanding and lack of coordination” between the government troops and the rebels.

“We are deeply saddened over the incident, but [that] should prod us to strive harder to attain peace so that this will not be repeated anymore,” he said.

The Marines were ambushed on Tuesday as they were checking reports that Italian priest Giancarlo Bossi, who was abducted from his parish while preparing to celebrate mass on June 10, and whom the Marines had been ordered to rescue, was being held in the area.

Reports said the Marines suffered a high-casualty count because they were grossly outnumbered and many of the mortar rounds they fired did not explode.

Garcia said that although the incident had serious repercussions on the peace process, it should not derail efforts to resume negotiations and conclude a peace agreement with the MILF.

Gadzhali Jaafar, the MILF’s vice chairman for political affairs, said the mutilation of corpses was against Islamic teachings and a violation of the rules of engagement adopted by the group.

He said all MILF troops found to have participated in the beheadings would be punished.

Garcia and Jaafar made their statements even as opposition Senator Francis Escudero supported President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo’s order to hunt down the rebels who killed and mutilated the Marines.

“The perpetrators of these brutal acts... must be brought to justice and peace talks cannot and should not shield them from being held liable,” he said.

But Escudero said the incident also showed that the military needed effective equipment to fight the insurgents.

“It is both criminally irresponsible and insensitive for this government to continue sending our soldiers to the field without the necessary working equipment and protective gear,” he said.

In Malacañang, Executive Secretary Eduardo Ermita said Mrs. Arroyo had already ordered the military to stop buying second-hand weapons following the Basilan incident.

“The President has already ordered that only brand-new equipment must be procured as part of the modernization program of the Armed Forces,” he said.

Acting Defense Secretary Norberto Gonzales agreed.

“That [buying used equipment] was our practice in the past, but we will not be doing that anymore,” he said.

“Our soldiers need proper equipment, and the President has ordered that this will be an urgent program,” he said.

And following the President’s orders, the Marines are sending a battalion to Basilan to track down the rebels responsible for beheading 10 of their comrades.

“Yes, we have received [information] that one Marine battalion will proceed to Basilan to beef up the forces of the First Marine Brigade in the area,” Marine spokesman Ariel Caculitan said. Fel V. Maragay, Roy Pelovello, Joyce Pangco Pañares, Arlie Calalo


Can anyone actually BELIEVE that this is just another ISOLATED INCIDENT? How many more isolated incidents do we need???

“misunderstanding and lack of coordination” ??? Are we really serious here???!!! :ohno:

THIS IS A MAJOR INSULT TO THE FAMILIES OF THE FALLEN TROOPS! :bleep:

FIGHT-FIGHT-FIGHT....TALK-TALK-TALK....FIGHT-FIGHT-FIGHT....TALK-TALK-TALK... :ohno:

If you read the last part of the article, so much EMPHASIS was on the lack of quality military equipment. How about the inept leaders who allowed these troops to venture out without insuring their competence and training??!!! We should also be looking at our training and leadership to help solve why these troops were poorly equipment.

Seems like politicians are so quick to blame the "tools of the trade" instead of the "fools of higher-grade"(corrupt officers)!!! :ohno:

To be really honest, in my opinion, there is a lack of quality in the system/leadership with the AFP and the politicians who continue to falsely believe that we can win this war through chit-chat....

This is another perfect classic example of using poor excuses (using old military equipment) as one of the main reasons why those troops were killed. Using old poor military equipment in the Philippine military has been an issue for DECADES. Why is it that they bring up this issue again??!! If only corruption and poor fiscal mismanagement have been addressed decades ago, the Philippine military wouldn't have crappy equipment today... :ohno:

Can anyone actually BELIEVE that this is just another ISOLATED INCIDENT? How many more isolated incidents do we need???

“misunderstanding and lack of coordination” ??? Are we really serious here???!!! :ohno:

THIS IS A MAJOR INSULT TO THE FAMILIES OF THE FALLEN TROOPS! :bleep:

FIGHT-FIGHT-FIGHT....TALK-TALK-TALK....FIGHT-FIGHT-FIGHT....TALK-TALK-TALK... :ohno:

If you read the last part of the article, so much EMPHASIS was on the lack of quality military equipment. How about the inept leaders who allowed these troops to venture out without insuring their competence and training??!!! We should also be looking at our training and leadership to help solve why these troops were poorly equipment.

Seems like politicians are so quick to blame the "tools of the trade" instead of the "fools of higher-grade"(corrupt officers)!!! :ohno:

To be really honest, in my opinion, there is a lack of quality in the system/leadership with the AFP and the politicians who continue to falsely believe that we can win this war through chit-chat....

This is another perfect classic example of using poor excuses (using old military equipment) as one of the main reasons why those troops were killed. Using old poor military equipment in the Philippine military has been an issue for DECADES. Why is it that they bring up this issue again??!! If only corruption and poor fiscal mismanagement have been addressed decades ago, the Philippine military wouldn't have crappy equipment today... :ohno:


I guess, if there is a Marines-led military uprising today or this week, many fed-up civilians will support it.

I guess, if there is a Marines-led military uprising today or this week, many fed-up civilians will support it.

Sure they will. History has proven it time and time again...

And you can also be assured the Philippines will once again learn the hard way...

Do marines wear any kind of Body Protections such as Flak Jackets/Kevlars???

Do marines wear any kind of Body Protections such as Flak Jackets/Kevlars???

I hope some can still remember the once exposed purchasing of low quality "kevlar helmets" kuno... that was exposed by TV Patrol.... few years ago... It was exposed by a certain high ranking officer of the Naval FOrce... As far as i know this Naval Officer was relieved from his post and became an Ambassador in a far far away land... The controversy dies a natural death.... oblivion...

No bullet proof vest.... No "real" kevlar Helmets...

All must have portable radios and Bullet proofs in hostile territory... when patrolling...

Senators have 200 Million Each... Congressmen have Million Each...
They are not the one dying in the battle field...

Marines should be given paramount importance in securing national sovereignty...

Sakit ako dughan mag tanaw sa mga pinoy soldiers...
(My heart is aching watching these filipino soldiers)
(Sumasakit ang Puso koh sa twing makikita ko ang mga Filipinong Sundalong ito!)

All must have portable radios and Bullet proofs in hostile territory... when patrolling...



Now i know Philly aint the richest Country in the world, but why not concentrate the best equipment they have right now, on locations with most dier needs? Basilan? Specialy with high a profile case like Fr. Bossi... i wonder how many would've been saved if they were wearing Kevlar Vests...

Now i know Philly aint the richest Country in the world, but why not concentrate the best equipment they have right now, on locations with most dier needs? Basilan? Specialy with high a profile case like Fr. Bossi... i wonder how many would've been saved if they were wearing Kevlar Vests...

I think the real question is not whether they had Kevlar vests or not, but why can't the Philippines effectively end this insurgency problem at a greater level.

I don't think the insurgency issue will ever disappear as long as poverty and developmental neglect continues, but that first depends on the security and safety within the region.

I think there is something wrong within the national administration and AFP hierachy that compels certain supposed leaders in holding back effective efforts. Maybe colonial mentality? Pride? Shame? Not wanting to hurt our own filipinos? Collusion? I don't know, nothing seems to make sense there during times like these... The leadership there in the Philippines can seem very embarrasing somtimes... :ohno:

In the meantime, all we can do is just sit here and wait for the news again... :ohno:

If all forms of media in the Philippines will concentrate all their effort in covering the Mindanao issue, I bet you, all politicians would kill each other just to be in front of the news media coverage.

We really need a good leader/leaders to solve this problem. It was proven that PGMA hasn't done anything about this problem with the Abu/MILF and other terrorist factions in the south. This issue is like a dynamite with a very short fuse.

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Opinion
EDITORIAL - Duds

Saturday, July 14, 2007

Fourteen Marines died in that MILF ambush, with 10 of them beheaded and mutilated. Body parts of the victims had to be collected and pieced together for a proper funeral. Some of the survivors are still in critical condition.


you may read further on the below weblink :

http://www.philstar.com/index.php?Opinion&p=49&type=2&sec=25&aid=20070713115

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Philippine Marines receive a briefing at the 8th Marine Battalion Landing Team camp in Lamitan, Basilan, where government forces are preparing for a major offensive against Islamic militants. - Photo By CHARLIE SACEDA


By Jaime Laude
Saturday, July 14, 2007

The Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) ordered the pre-positioning of troops in Basilan in preparation for a full-scale offensive against militants behind the brutal killing of 14 Marines last Tuesday.

Hundreds of additional Marines and an Army brigade have been deployed to hunt for Islamic militants who killed 14 soldiers as they were searching for kidnapped Italian priest Giancarlo Bossi.

The additional troop deployment came after President Arroyo ordered the AFP to “hunt down and arrest” the militants behind the killing of the Marines, 10 of whom were beheaded and mutilated.

“One Marine battalion will proceed to Basilan to beef up the forces of the 1st Marine Brigade in the area,” Marine spokesman Lt. Col. Ariel Caculitan said.

The Marines will also augment the forces searching for Bossi, who was abducted in Zamboanga Sibugay on June 10 and is thought to be held by militants.

A brigade each from the Marines and the Army are stationed in Basilan but with the planned all-out military operation, the AFP ordered the deployment of more troops to the province.

Caculitan said the reinforcement was “meant to locate and rescue Father Bossi when the opportunity arises.”

AFP Public Information Office chief Lt. Col. Bartolome Bacarro said the troops would be coming from nearby Sulu, where the military is hunting for members of the Jemaah Islamiyah (JI) extremist network and the like-minded Abu Sayyaf group.

According to Bacarro, the military has already identified the group behind the carnage but declined to elaborate.

The slain Marines were investigating a tip-off that Bossi was being held in the area when they were ambushed near Tipo-Tipo town.

You may read further on the below web link, since this is a very long news article

http://www.philstar.com/index.php?Headlines&p=49&type=2&sec=24&aid=20070713147

I hope this Tipo-Tipo incident and the major offensive by the marines/military won't cause further turmoil to the whole region to the point that it will affect the Philippine economy which is just now starting to gain momentum towards the path of economic recovery.

exactly how many soldiers are in a marine battalion?

exactly how many soldiers are in a marine battalion?

about 600 officers and men in one marine battalion.

suicide and sniper attacks on russians.... lol bored made this today... xD

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hCdaGnVk6DI

Halos walang pakialam ang ating government with regard to national territory...
Check this out:

1 Spratly Islands
2 Sabah
3 Scarborough Shoal
4 Palmas or Miangas Island

All these islands/ islets are nearest to the philippines compared with other countries but we did nothing. Even slightly poorer than us (indonesia) claimes the Palmas Island and we did nothing...


@Rasputin

We did nothing? what do you mean we did nothing? The philippines is the main driving force behind the ASEAN-China declaration on the south china sea. The chinese are not that agressively pursuing their claim in the spratlys anymore, but are rather cooperating, coz they have to. since the philippines made it a major topic among asean and the chinese side.

the sabah claim is on the backburner, the malaysians are still paying rent (even a very very small amount,its an important fact concerning the question, who really is the owner of sabah), and the palmas island is still subject to ongoing negotiations.

dont mix things up here, this has nothing to do with the conflict in basilan now. thats a totally different story.

Some guerrilla terrorist sniper, ied and suicide attacks i made using fraps.. lol


Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/v/hCdaGnVk6DI

Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/v/-tDJMkQaPVg

hey guys, anyone know of this one site about the Phil Military, kind of like Timawa.net ...i forgot the domain name

I really HOPE that ANY AFP spokesperson will keep his mouth shut!!! on when the actually dates/times are for the major offensive.

If any embedded media journalists are going to tag along and find out anyway, then let them report it to their news station and public. Because if any more marines are going to get caught in an ambush from the enemy knowing their location (by just listening/watching the local news), we can blame the media for this... It seems like the element of surprise doesn't mean crap to anybody. Only machismo fighting seems to matter, bakit? This is stupid... A bullet doesn't care if you are a little boy or a big tough guy. :ohno:

It's true that the marines had poor mortar rounds, but the focus shouldn't just be on bigger guns. Look at Iraq. America has the best military technology out there and there is still secular violence raging out there.

Besides, if you think about it, mortar rounds are NOT EFFECTIVE in very close range combat, only handguns and rifles are. If the enemy is behind a nearby tree, how can a projectile effectively fire into a trajectory towards a sniper. Those trajectory distances are not very short and take time to re-position. If broad collateral damage was the goal of these rounds, the insurgents (whose whereabouts weren't effectively known), can easily mobilize around them. If the insurgents were effective in confusing the troops as to their numbers and location/distance, then that is poor intel/safety planning of the AFP.

So why does the media focus so much on these duds when it really wasn't the SOLE CAUSE of this fiasco??? People need to wake up!!!!!

News update from my friend in the Philippine AFP:

I called my friend from the Philippines, who had originally asked me about BLACKWATER (he decided later not to join), and I asked him why those marines got ambushed and mutilated like that. His opinion was that the commander was very eager to rescue the Italian father and sent his men in harm's way WITHOUT being familiar with the area and terrain.

Well, there you have it. One opinion from one AFP master sergeant......

hey guys, anyone know of this one site about the Phil Military, kind of like Timawa.net ...i forgot the domain name

Just click this URL link : http://www.timawa.net/forum/

Sunday, July 15, 2007


Military says troops closing
in on Basilan beheaders


The military said Saturday that it was closing in on Islamic extremists who ambushed and killed 14 Marines this week in Basilan.

The 14 Marines were slain and 10 were beheaded as they searched for kidnapped Italian priest Giancarlo Bossi, following a tip-off that he was being held in the area.

The military accused the Abu Sayyaf, an Islamic extremist group known to have ties with al-Qaeda, and the Moro Islamic Liberation Front of joining forces to launch Wednesday’s attack.

“We have already identified some of the perpetrators. We are consolidating the offensive against the perpetrators,” said Rear Adm. Emilio Marayag, head of naval forces including of marines in the area.

“We have sufficient forces to run after those behind the attack,” he said, as the bodies of some of the slain soldiers were carried onto a military transport plane bound for Manila.

The military has poured hundreds of marines into the area in the wake of the killings and intensified its search for Bossi, kidnapped from his parish in the Zamboanga Sibugay on June 10.

The MILF remained defiant Saturday over the attack, saying they would not return weapons they had seized from the dead men.

MILF peace negotiator Mohaqer Iqbal said the marines had violated a ceasefire by entering MILF territory without first gaining clearance.

“We will not [return them]. This is a legitimate encounter after the other [side] violated the ceasefire,” he said.

The MILF, which has a truce in place as it negotiates peace with the government, admits taking part in the ambush but not the beheadings.

Iqbal said the ambush would not affect the peace talks unless the government attacked MILF positions on Basilan.

The military’s offensive in the area could hurt the three-year-old truce that the 12,000-strong MILF has with the government, experts have said.

The ceasefire and peace talks cover only the MILF, not the Abu Sayyaf, a group linked to the Al-Qaeda and regional Jemaah Islamiah terror networks.

Officials have suggested that Abu Sayyaf may be holding Bossi, after they initially believed renegade members of the MILF were involved.
--AFP

This is somewhat better reporting. No actual times/specific dates mentioned or inferences to imminent times of actual military operations.

I really believe the MILF should not be negotiated with. It should be considered a terrorist organziation against the Philippine nation. Although they are unlike other terrorists in that they are cooperating through peace talks, this doesn't give them no excuse to commit atrocities against federal soldiers/civilians like terrorists do. And collusion/cooperation with terrorist groups makes them terrorists as well.....

The MILF peace negotiator considers stealing the AFP weapons "legitimate" after the AFP violated the ceasefire. Let's take a look into this thinking.....

If taking weapons is "legitimate" because the ceasefire was broken, then this simply implies an act of war (where the rules obviously no longer apply in certain areas). Obviously, the negotiator doesn't know jack about illegal possesion of federal property since he feels justified in the rebels actions due to the ceasefire breach. The negotiator seems to be interpreting his own rules and laws.

So I ask this...Why would the Philippines want to negotiate and create peace with an organization who has this kind of thinking??? An organization who has no vested interest in the nation other than their own self-interests (through violence)? :ohno:

Also, why doesn't the A.R.M.M. have a matter or voice in handling this issue with the mutilated marines. After all, the Philippine government recognizes them as "Autonomous" while representing the muslim community. That's why the A.R.M.M. is a JOKE, and needs to be dissolved, along with all the other groups like ASG, MNLF, MILF, NPA, etc. etc.

I really HOPE that ANY AFP spokesperson will keep his mouth shut!!! on when the actually dates/times are for the major offensive.

If any embedded media journalists are going to tag along and find out anyway, then let them report it to their news station and public. Because if any more marines are going to get caught in an ambush from the enemy knowing their location (by just listening/watching the local news), we can blame the media for this... It seems like the element of surprise doesn't mean crap to anybody. Only machismo fighting seems to matter, bakit? This is stupid... A bullet doesn't care if you are a little boy or a big tough guy. :ohno:

It's true that the marines had poor mortar rounds, but the focus shouldn't just be on bigger guns. Look at Iraq. America has the best military technology out there and there is still secular violence raging out there.

Besides, if you think about it, mortar rounds are NOT EFFECTIVE in very close range combat, only handguns and rifles are. If the enemy is behind a nearby tree, how can a projectile effectively fire into a trajectory towards a sniper. Those trajectory distances are not very short and take time to re-position. If broad collateral damage was the goal of these rounds, the insurgents (whose whereabouts weren't effectively known), can easily mobilize around them. If the insurgents were effective in confusing the troops as to their numbers and location/distance, then that is poor intel/safety planning of the AFP.

So why does the media focus so much on these duds when it really wasn't the SOLE CAUSE of this fiasco??? People need to wake up!!!!!

News update from my friend in the Philippine AFP:

I called my friend from the Philippines, who had originally asked me about BLACKWATER (he decided later not to join), and I asked him why those marines got ambushed and mutilated like that. His opinion was that the commander was very eager to rescue the Italian father and sent his men in harm's way WITHOUT being familiar with the area and terrain.

Well, there you have it. One opinion from one AFP master sergeant......

Media exposure is what everyone wanted in the Philippines. They still won't discuss what went wrong on this fiasco but they really jump on poor quality of armaments the the AFP have on their inventory.
We better send more media people to the battle so that everything would be screwed up.

I remember those newsmen in Kuwait eager to find a better story and tried to force their way ahead of the battle group and ended up lost. :lol:

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OUR HUSBANDS, OUR SONS. Relatives of the 14 Marines killed in Tipo-Tipo, Basilan
stand by their caskets during the heroes' welcome for them at Villamor Airbase.
The bodies arrived this afternoon via a C-130 military plane. LYN RILLON






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President Arroyo salutes and pays tribute to 14 Marines killed in an encounter in
Tipo-Tipo, Basilan. Behind her is Vice President Noli de Castro. PCPO





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The wife of a Marines killed in Tipo Tipo, Basilan.





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The relatives of the Marines killed in the battle.





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-----------------------------------------------------------------

Video Links

Remains of 14 slain Marines arrive at Villamor Air Base

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9104/Remains-of-14-slain-Marines-arrive-at-Villamor-Air-Base

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/pic_pag00.jpg




Arroyo: Killers can’t hide under negotiating table.
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view_article.php?article_id=76662





‘The slain soldiers tried their best to save the rest’
By Julie Alipala

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view_article.php?article_id=76664





Meet lone woman Marine in thick of Basilan fighting

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view_article.php?article_id=76663

Another bragging rights ? when will they ever learn?



Military says closing in on militants who killed 14 Marines (http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/regions/view_article.php?article_id=76626)


Agence France-Presse
Last updated 02:14pm (Mla time) 07/14/2007


ZAMBOANGA, Philippines -- The military on Saturday said it was closing in on Islamic extremists who ambushed and killed 14 Marines this week in the nation's volatile south.

The military accused the Abu Sayyaf, an Islamic extremist group known to have ties with Al-Qaeda, and the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF), a Muslim separatist guerrilla group, of joining forces to launch Wednesday's attack.

"We have already identified some of the perpetrators. We are consolidating the offensive against the perpetrators," said Rear Admiral Emilio Marayag, head of naval forces including of marines in the area.
.................


Yuppers, it just like saying, "SUMUKO NA KAMO, NAPAPALIGIRAN KO KAYONG LAHAT!"

Faced with a vastly superior force, do you think the MILF will make a stand and gallantly fight to the death ?

No, they will not. A vast majority of the fighters will change their fatigues for ukay-ukay bargains, and bury their assault rifles in the ground.

For the next few months they will revert to being the farm hands or traders. If they become casualties now, they are civilian casualties and not MILF casualties.

Such is how an insurgency works. That is why it cannot be resolved thorugh military means alone.

Faced with a vastly superior force, do you think the MILF will make a stand and gallantly fight to the death ?

No, they will not. A vast majority of the fighters will change their fatigues for ukay-ukay bargains, and bury their assault rifles in the ground.

For the next few months they will revert to being the farm hands or traders. If they become casualties now, they are civilian casualties and not MILF casualties.

Such is how an insurgency works. That is why it cannot be resolved thorugh military means alone.

their leaders can always go and hide in sabah or in kalimantan and after the military offensives they will go back to the south.
the military has to do a complete blockade all around the islands so that fast kumpit cannot elude the military dragnet.

The well-equipped Philippine Marines batallion in NCR Manila,
the military contigency force incase of any coup d'etat in Manila.

Some of forumers in military forums suggested that it should be re-assigned to Basilan and Sulu since the NCR Command is strong enough to deter any coup.


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from the PDFF

http://pdff.sytes.net/index.php?showtopic=4610&st=0

Disband the PMRF!, right now!!!
Track this topic | Email this topic | Print this topic
caterwaul Posted: Jul 12 2007, 08:51 AM

Capitan

Group: Rangers
Posts: 207
Member No.: 51
Joined: 30-July 04

...and distribute the troops, equipment, vehicles and weapons to the MBLTs in Basilan and Sulu where they are most needed!

useless naman yan dito sa NCR, puro porma at hambog lang in defense kuno of gloria against coup de etat...susmaryosep...your fellow marines in basilan were massacred, di agad makapadala nang reinforcement dahil walang masakyan nanghiram pa ng dumptruck sa LGU!

remove those silly and cheesy (and useless) urban camo from the APCs, trucks, 4x4s, LVTPs, AAA guns and send all to the field! di na kailangan ang PMRF dito sa Metro Manila, redundancy na kayo sa PSG at PA NCR command

leave the protection of gloria to the PSG e kaya na nila yun ang dami na nila, e dapat pa nga yung heavy weapons ng PSG isama na rin padala dun sa Basilan, ibigay sa Marines who need those most!
--------------------

I heard Malacanang is changing the presidential seal. It's gonna be a condom. A condom because it more accurately reflects the administration's political stance. A condom allows for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation, protects a bunch of pricks and gives you a sense of security while you're actually being screwed.

-Pendejo
As posted here

didu Posted: Jul 12 2007, 09:15 AM

Sargento Mayor

Group: Rangers
Posts: 123
Member No.: 117
Joined: 7-September 04

I support the suggestion of the above poster to disband the PMRF.

I now believe that its troops and most importantly the vehicles and equipment are more needed in the field than in NCR. The threat of coup de etat is far lesser now that Trillanes and Honasan are senators and the jailed coup plotters have plead guilty.

The THREAT of coup de etat will RISE again if the troops in the field are not provided with the appropriate and enough support as evidenced by the dud mortar rounds and lack of armored vehicles and weapons.
ctrlaltdel Posted: Jul 12 2007, 10:14 AM


Teniente Segundo

Group: Rangers
Posts: 149
Member No.: 151
Joined: 3-October 04

who are the bright boys behind the organization of this PMRF?

maybe they can shed light on the benefits of this unit in Manila instead of in Basilan or Sulu.

if disbandment is not possible (especially if the activation of this unit was political), then would it not be possible to rotate this unit to Basilan and other hot areas?

valiant Posted: Jul 12 2007, 01:01 PM


Teniente Primero


Group: Rangers
Posts: 156
Member No.: 412
Joined: 26-March 05

maayo pa!

the GMA video of the incident clearly showed the pathetic situation of the marines in combat areas - a borrowed white truck stuck in the mud, mortar rounds that do not go off, lack of APCs, radios, etc - and there's this well-equipped unit sitting in manila just for the protection of the cheating president from military adventurists!

my golay! wake up guys, this unit and its equipment should be put to good use in critical areas - not just sit or strut in Manila like goddamned peaococks!
Rapidfire Posted: Jul 12 2007, 06:14 PM


Professional Toy Gun Technician

Group: Paratroops
Posts: 349
Member No.: 445
Joined: 22-April 05

I agree, after seeing the video footage I realized these fancy-painted vehicles could have been put to good use in the Basilan encounter:

http://pdff.sytes.net/index.php?showtopic=4610&st=0

Even the Marines recycle weapons
Track this topic | Email this topic | Print this topic
Bat21 Posted: Jul 15 2007, 10:31 AM


Sargento Segundo


Group: Marauders
Posts: 67
Member No.: 418
Joined: 30-March 05



This is a footage I saw about the weaponry of the Philippine Marines. May be some of you has seen it and if you haven't, here it is.

God bless the Philippines and her armed forces . . .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBwlMfeECgM...related&search=

^^Can you reissue the link again? It doesn't seem to be working on this end. :(

I've just began following the recent news of what's going on in Basilan...may the ultimate sacrifices that these Marines paid be remembered...

hey guys, anyone know of this one site about the Phil Military, kind of like Timawa.net ...i forgot the domain name

http://pdff.sytes.net
http://www.hueybravo.net

Any of the above two ring a bell?

BTW Avenger, do you have an account w/ PDFF and Opus' forums?

^^Can you reissue the link again? It doesn't seem to be working on this end. :(

I've just began following the recent news of what's going on in Basilan...may the ultimate sacrifices that these Marines paid be remembered...



http://pdff.sytes.net
http://www.hueybravo.net

Any of the above two ring a bell?

BTW Avenger, do you have an account w/ PDFF and Opus' forums?

thanks so much mate... first one!

^^Can you reissue the link again? It doesn't seem to be working on this end. :(

I've just began following the recent news of what's going on in Basilan...may the ultimate sacrifices that these Marines paid be remembered...



http://pdff.sytes.net
http://www.hueybravo.net

Any of the above two ring a bell?

BTW Avenger, do you have an account w/ PDFF and Opus' forums?

it seems working when I go back to PDFF.
heres the direct link for u tube :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBwlMfeECgM

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/reporters.jpg



[http://pdff.sytes.net/index.php?showtopic=4617

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/gddbless.jpg


i got no account with opus dei/timawa.net.
but have account with pdff about 6 months ago but i forgot the password. anyway anyone can access those sites even without password. of course cannot post.

it is really disgusting how our government can sent troops to the frontlines without the proper weapons / ammo, while those senators, congressmens have millions pork barrels / country side development fund kuno.

hindi na bale kung wala talagang pera, pero winawaldas lang ng
mga hayupak na mga politicians at ibang top government officials
ang pera ng bayan.

see the post of one singaporean soldiers

Singa Lion Posted: Jul 13 2007, 05:56 PM
Teniente Coronel
Group: Paratroops
Posts: 318
Member No.: 20
Joined: 13-July 04

QUOTE (Rapidfire @ Jul 12 2007, 05:51 PM)

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/33090344yz8.jpg


http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/e2f7d8f8.jpg

RIP, gallant warriors

if you notice the dead are not even carried in proper body bags, those are torn and their bodies exposed.


my prayers to these brave warriors, my filipino halfbrothers
--------------------


The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls ..must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.
-BG Lee , 1984



knightshade Posted: Jul 13 2007, 06:47 PM
Sargento Mayor

Group: Rangers
Posts: 107
Member No.: 469
Joined: 22-May 05

2 things...

1. They just want to get back..remeber their heavy losses in midsayap last March?
2. Theyre probably hiding something there.

Punyetang peace accord yan ginagamit lang proteksyon ng mga MI dekada na naman aabutin nyan pag puros lang ganyan.. nakakaasar!
--------------------

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke -Tears of the Sun[FONT=Arial]

bulm540 Posted: Jul 14 2007, 08:57 AM
Cabo Primero
Group: Regulars
Posts: 40
Member No.: 316
Joined: 9-February 05

QUOTE (City Hunter @ Jul 13 2007, 03:37 PM)
I don't think its Islam that is at fault. Kundi yun interpreter at ang baluktot na interpretation. The same thing happens to Catholics, Buddhists, etc.

Yun pagpugot kasi ng ulo at other body parts ay kasama sa mga rituals nila. Mas matindi kung nahuli ka ng buhay. That's why some seasoned units don't leave their dead behind. Lahat uuwi kahit patay.

What should be noted ay hindi nga madaling ma-solve ito. Hindi ko pa nabasa ang report kaya mahirap maghusga who is at fault why such happened. But this event should be a lesson na.

Tell that to the Widow of a Marine. http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/9...ied-with-honors

flipzi Posted: Jul 14 2007, 12:18 PM


PDFF Moderator


Group: PDFF ModGroup
Posts: 4,839
Member No.: 71
Joined: 8-August 04

City Hunter was right! The beheadings are part of their ritual. This is not the first time it happened.

The point there is GET USED TO IT!

Anyway, you're doing the same to them anyway. Though not as often.

What I cannot accept is the ambush despite a ceasefire and despite the MILF knowing that they were after the abductors of Fr. Bossi.

If I will dictate the action, I will hunt down the culprits and bomb them to hell even if they hide inside the house of any of the negotiators from the MILF. THE MILF SHOULD HAVE CONSIDERED THE FACT THAT THE SOLDIERS WERE JUST AFTER FR. BOSSI'S ABDUCTORS. But as it seemed, their motive was to get the opportunity of killing our soldiers right when they are vulnerable and unsuspecting of the MILF's traitor-like action.

You want war! Well, you'll have it!

I agree with the massive operation in pursuit of the culprits. The motive is to teach them a lesson.

Nonetheless, such ambush will happen again and again until this stupid govt that is being ruled by stupid and corrupt lawmakers give the military what it needs to control such situations effectively.

wow, that Confidence Firing is one heck of a test. Just iron sights no scope

Faced with a vastly superior force, do you think the MILF will make a stand and gallantly fight to the death ?

No, they will not. A vast majority of the fighters will change their fatigues for ukay-ukay bargains, and bury their assault rifles in the ground.

For the next few months they will revert to being the farm hands or traders. If they become casualties now, they are civilian casualties and not MILF casualties.

Such is how an insurgency works. That is why it cannot be resolved thorugh military means alone.

Yes, you have a very good point. That means we have an insurgency problem that is embedded into the local populace.

But hidden insurgents cannot 2-face there own mga kapitbahay and mask their identity indefinitely if insurgents are pursued, hunted, and killed while safety and security are re-established to provide further economic aid for the poor.

And that's what we need to do. They cannot win unless we make them win. The local populace only helps them blend in when we (as a filipino society) don't give them any hope for their children....

We need to start recycling some of the people in the AFP and Malacanang......

So I don't believe in any of that crap that these guys (insurgents) will win. They will be hunted down and killed sooner or later. You cannot negotiate or deal with them later on. It's been ingrained in their psyche and we will just further waste our time if we keep negotiating (like we did for the last several hundred years!!!) :ohno:

I read the following article posted previously....

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view_article.php?article_id=76662

It states that...

The MILF had admitted that its fighters attacked and killed the Marines, whom it accused of encroaching into its stronghold in Albarka (formerly Tipo-tipo) in Basilan.

But the MILF denied beheading the 10 Marines. It said it was investigating who carried out the beheadings ......

Then, the article mentions...

Punishment

In a statement she issued yesterday morning, the President said the government would not back out of the peace talks with the MILF. But she vowed to punish the killers of the 14 Marines.

I don't know if it's just me but something is TOTALLY WRONG here....

The first quote shows CLEARLY who killed those marines. By Arroyo saying that she would not back out of the peace talks with the MILF, she is insinuating that those KILLINGS were JUSTIFIED by the MILF!!! She said she vowed to punish the killers, didn't the MILF just admit this? Is she only going after the beheaders? How about the people who actually killed them in the first place!!! :ohno: What the F@#$!!!

ENOUGH!!! :bleep:

Can someone here please explain to me the ambiguity in this article???!!!

Has this become only an issue now of who beheaded them, instead of who KILLED them? Regardless if their heads were cut-off BEFORE or AFTER their deaths, those punished should be the KILLERS! Not who cut off their heads (that's after the fact since they are already dead!) :ohno:

So it's the MILF we should be after!!! If ASG denies any wrong-doing, you go after the most probable suspects. And even in this case, MILF admitted to the killings!!! What's going on here??!!!

Can someone please explain to me the situation??!! :ohno:

As much as I support GMA for her efforts in our economic growth, she needs to go back to the classroom and study military strategy and history 101...

I read the following article posted previously....

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view_article.php?article_id=76662

It states that...



Then, the article mentions...



I don't know if it's just me but something is TOTALLY WRONG here....

The first quote shows CLEARLY who killed those marines. By Arroyo saying that she would not back out of the peace talks with the MILF, she is insinuating that those KILLINGS were JUSTIFIED by the MILF!!! She said she vowed to punish the killers, didn't the MILF just admit this? Is she only going after the beheaders? How about the people who actually killed them in the first place!!! :ohno: What the F@#$!!!

ENOUGH!!! :bleep:

Can someone here please explain to me the ambiguity in this article???!!!

Has this become only an issue now of who beheaded them, instead of who KILLED them? Regardless if their heads were cut-off BEFORE or AFTER their deaths, those punished should be the KILLERS! Not who cut off their heads (that's after the fact since they are already dead!) :ohno:

So it's the MILF we should be after!!! If ASG denies any wrong-doing, you go after the most probable suspects. And even in this case, MILF admitted to the killings!!! What's going on here??!!!

Can someone please explain to me the situation??!! :ohno:

As much as I support GMA for her efforts in our economic growth, she needs to go back to the classroom and study military strategy and history 101...

the situation is that ........ politicians were good in double talk :lol:

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/nation/view_article.php?article_id=76825



This isn’t my son,’ ma of dead Marine cries


By Christine Avendaño
Inquirer
Last updated 02:32am (Mla time) 07/16/2007


MANILA, Philippines -- Overwhelmed with emotion when they saw their loved ones in their coffins, one young woman fainted while others wept. Another woman, Sonia Panaga, wailed and stomped her foot on the floor on seeing the remains of her first-born, Cpl. Russel Panaga.

But she simply could not recognize him.

“Hindi yan ang anak ko (That’s not my son),” Sonia, rent with grief, said as she hung on the arm of a relative.

As relatives swarmed around to comfort her, Sonia insisted it was not her Russel and that maybe there had been a mistake.

Sonia was among the mourners who viewed for the first time Sunday the remains of 14 Marines killed in an ambush by Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) guerrillas and Abu Sayyaf bandits on Basilan island on Tuesday last week.

Her son was among the 10 Marines who were beheaded.

Some were not just beheaded; their bodies were also mutilated.

Manila Archbishop Gaudencio Rosales, speaking on Church-run Radio Veritas, was appalled, saying that whoever carried out the atrocities were not human.

“Kahit sino, hindi ako bumabanggit na kahit sino pa man, basta gumawa ng ganun, hindi tao (Whoever did this, and I won’t mention anyone, whoever did this are not human),” Rosales said.

For the first time since the carnage, Marine officers admitted that not only were the dead Marines beheaded and mutilated, they were also robbed of their personal effects -- rings, watches and even cell phones -- by their killers.

Marine Commandant Maj. Gen. Nelson Allaga told reporters that accounts by some of the nine soldiers wounded in the ambush showed that they saw their attackers chopping up the fallen soldiers’ remains.

“Nakita pa tinataga nga yun wounded e (They saw their wounded comrades being hacked),” Allaga said.

The mother of 11 children, Sonia said her son was “kalbo” (bald) -- at least that was the way he looked the last time she saw him weeks ago when he came home to Bicol for a visit.

Her relatives tried to hush her, telling her it was their Russel all right.

The remains in the casket had hair.

The Marines were heading back to their base in Iligan after conducting a fruitless search for kidnapped Italian priest Giancarlo Bossi when they were ambushed.

The remains of Russel and the other Marines were brought to Manila from Zamboanga City the other day for a wake at the Philippine Marines headquarters in Fort Bonifacio, Taguig City.

Allaga said military investigators were trying to piece together what happened on Tuesday. He noted that the ambush and succeeding firefight happened over a wide area.

The Army vehicles traveling in a convoy were far apart from each other and Allaga said Marines at the back of the convoy couldn’t possibly have known what was happening to their comrades in front.

Pure sadism

Asked what message the attackers were trying to send by chopping off the heads of the Marines, Allaga said that in past encounters he had been in, such as in the Cordilleras, beheadings were done to signal total victory.

“When you go after the head, you are going after the center of gravity, as though your victory would be complete if you could remove the head,” he said.

Allaga said the mutilations simply were acts of “sadism.”

“It’s even a cowardly act ... because if you are really a warrior, [you would not do it] because he’s already dead,” he said.

Marine spokesperson Lt. Col. Ariel Caculitan said that some of the slain Marines had their hands or legs cut off.

In a few instances, the military was unable to recover the body parts of these soldiers, he said.

Caculitan said that one soldier had his limbs cut off and this only showed “how savage these people are.”

Gloves on

At Sunday’s wake held at the gymnasium inside the Marine compound, some of the slain soldiers had gloves on to hide their missing hands, Navy spokesperson Commander Giovanni Carlo Bacordo said.

The dead Marines, in uniform, lay in white caskets flanked by rows of white wreaths from President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo.

Consoled by Marine officers after her outburst, Sonia finally admitted to reporters that it was indeed her son who was lying in the coffin.

“I was just shocked,” she said, apologizing. “It was because my son was a handsome man.”

Embalming fluid

While she was talking to reporters, a Navy servicewoman interrupted, telling her that she probably did not recognize her son because of the embalming fluid that left his face bloated.

She agreed that it might have been the fluid all right.

Bacordo said that Russel’s death came after he had survived two other “close” encounters.

Russel was one of two soldiers from a Marine unit who survived a previous encounter with Abu Sayyaf and another deadly firefight with the group last year, in which Abu Sayyaf chieftain Khaddafy Janjalani was killed.

One of the bandits in Tuesday’s ambush even used the cell phone he took from one of the Marines to call the latter’s wife and tell her they had killed him, according to Bacordo.

The killer even called

Bacordo said Private First Class Reuben Doronio Jr., who hailed from Cebu and, at 20 years old, was the youngest among those killed, had called his wife during the firefight.

“But the conversation was cut short. The wife tried to call back but could not reach him,” he said.

Later, Doronio’s wife received a call from her husband’s phone.

It was someone claiming that he and his companions had killed her husband, according to Bacordo.

“Pinatay na namin asawa mo. Yan ang napala niya kasi sundalo siya (We killed your husband. That was his fate because he was a soldier),” was what the caller told Doronio’s wife, Bacordo said.

“You can see how very callous they are. They don’t have any feelings,” Bacordo told the Philippine Daily Inquirer, parent company of INQUIRER.net.

Cardinal Rosales said if those who beheaded the Marines claimed to have a god, the only way to explain their brutality was they might have been losing the minds given to them by their god.

“You’re losing your conscience, too. If that’s the case, even a snake will be afraid of you. Even evil will be afraid of you,” he said.

“It (brutality) can never be justified,” Rosales said. “It has nothing to do with religion, nothing to do with culture. It has to do with the human person. If you want to be human, join the human society. Abide by its decency, its morality.” With a report from Nikko Dizon

the situation is that ........ politicians were good in double talk :lol:

Yes, I see that.. :lol:

But seriously, I think we need to start getting rid of some people again until someone steps up and is not afraid to lead......

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/pic-07150809240729.jpg



http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines1-1.jpg



http://opinion.inquirer.net/inquireropinion/editorial/view_article.php?article_id=76704

EDITORIAL
The dud stops here



Inquirer
Last updated 06:50am (Mla time) 07/15/2007


MANILA, Philippines—Sixty years after it was introduced, the B-52 bomber is still a formidable mainstay of the US Air Force. In and of itself, age isn’t necessarily a deterrent to the weapon system’s effectivity. The machine guns, first developed in World War II, remain the mainstay of armies around the world: and again, the US Army uses some heavy machine guns manufactured for the Korean War, or which were designed in World War II. But arm a B-52 bomber with bombs that don’t explode, or use a well-maintained machine gun but feed it dummy bullets, and the weapons system becomes ineffectual.

The ambush of the Philippine Marines in Tipo-Tipo was particularly tragic, because for all their valor in battle, our troops ended up with equipment that failed them. The 81-mm dud rounds fired by the mortars of the First Marine Brigade said it all: as did the explanations put forward by the Armed Forces. Lt. Col. Bartolome Bacarro, AFP public information chief said the mortar rounds came from the United States; that they hadn’t displayed any defects during testing; but that the rounds could have been exposed to harsh conditions in the field, which resulted in the rounds proving to be duds.

Acting Secretary of National Defense Norberto Gonzales weighed in by saying the President ordered him to “fast-track” modernization. He went further to castigate past efforts (and pin the blame on his predecessors). He said, “We’ve been like scrap-heap dealers in our modernization program, getting secondhand equipment for our soldiers. We’re not doing that anymore.”

Bacarro and Gonzale are practicing the art of evading blame by passing the blame: Bacarro to the logistical arm of the various AFP services; Gonzales to his predecessors and the idea that refurbished or secondhand military equipment is, by its very nature, defective—which calls into question the longstanding policy of accepting military aid in the form of materiel from allies (specifically, the United States, and, increasingly, Australia.

Neither attitude solves the problem. Such comments only serve to magnify how serious the problem is: as much as procurement may need reexamination, the gigantic shortcoming in the AFP exposed yet again, is the incompetence that characterizes the maintenance (in)capabilities of the military. Gonzales’ own statements are along the lines of an armchair warrior demanding shiny new toys, when military procurement is not a toy-shopping expedition. New isn’t necessarily better, and allied militaries are not in the habit of passing on defective weapons systems as military assistance. The problem is in how our military is unable to keep things functioning.

Ultimately, the issue is how, as the third longest-serving president in our country’s history, President Macapagal-Arroyo has refused to come to terms with the fact that the military buck stops at her desk. It has been six years since she assumed office; and four years since the Oakwood mutiny: an act of rebellion whose motivating complaints have increasingly been validated over time. There has been time for substantive reform; but her genius for turning even loyal appeals (which was how the Magdalo began their efforts) into outright confrontations (after meeting personally with her, the mutineers revolted), and her helter-skelter, willy-nilly attitude to governance and reform, are the problem.

The criticisms she has been subjected to, after all, have been validated and not discredited, over time.

First, the arrest of Maj. Gen. Carlos Garcia proved that the corruption that the young officers in the revolt were complaining about was true. Second, the President’s own Feliciano Commission pointed out that the grievances were genuinely felt, and not manufactured (and it advised the appointment of civilian heads of the Department of National Defense, which the President blithely ignored when Avelino Cruz resigned, not least because of policy differences over proclaiming martial law and not using the armed forces in elections were concerned).

And third, the long list of things that went wrong for the Marines in Tipo-Tipo (radio communication from HQ broke down; they fought nine hours without any effective means to reinforce them or evacuate them; their weaponry failed) validates the mutineers’ complaints of substandard equipment and inferior maintenance of ordnance and supplies.



http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines3-1.jpg

Marines newly arrived in Basilan for the offensive.



http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines2-1.jpg
Marines newly arrived in Basilan for the offensive.
.

to evacuate Marines from the battlefield, i heard the military borrowed Daewoo dump trucks from the
Local Government Unit.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marines1-1.jpg

SALUTE TO THE FALLEN. Saluting Marines line the road as hearses bearing their 14 comrades who died in an ambush and encounter in Basilan on July 10 make their way to the Bonifacio Naval Station gymnasium where the dead will lie in state until Monday. Ten of the slain troops were beheaded and mutilated. INQUIRER.net/JOEL GUINTO

it seems working when I go back to PDFF.

but have account with pdff about 6 months ago but i forgot the password. anyway anyone can access those sites even without password. of course cannot post.

Just curious as I might've ran into you whenever I post around the two forums. ;)

Yes, I see that.. :lol:

But seriously, I think we need to start getting rid of some people again until someone steps up and is not afraid to lead......

how to get rid ? to get rid by elections which since time immemorial were farce, everybody cheats ........ opposition and administration, it only depends who got more power to cheat,
more money, and more loyal political supporters. ?

by coup d'etat I guess

how to get rid ? by elections which since time immemorial were farce, everybody cheats ........ opposition and administration. ?

by coup d'etat I guess or by a revolution ........

In my opinion, the coup d'etat and revolution is the LAST THING the Philippines needs.

Somebody there just needs the guts/balls to take action. Instead, everyone is just sitting around and sulking at each other afraid that if they do something, in their opinion, too drastic, they will lose their jobs/position/reputation or whatever.

A true filipno, IMO, is that person who goes beyond his/her personal self and does what's best for the country. Even if it means criticizing publicly or firing someone within the jurisdiction of their political/leadership position. The only way you or I can help is by supporting that person we believe is doing the right thing (especially during elections) ...... :)

dapat kasi kinukuha lahat ng lalake sa basilan, tapos pinapahiwalay muna sa mga kuwarentang asawang muslim. syempre madaming magkukunwaring mga milf na civilian sila then turn around kills innocent civilian at mga sundalo. ang liit ng islang basilan tapos madaming patayan at kidnapan nangyayari. mga sundalo naman natin nde ginagawa ang tamang paghahalugad, puro papogi epek lang at puro asta

Bkt ang militar natin mag pea peace talk sa NPA??? Kung hindi nila kayang pag sabayin ang dalawang guera na mang yayari dapat mang hingi sila ng tulong sa U.S.A at E.U and Australia.....E.U and A.F.P will hunt and crush N.P.A while U.S.A, Australia with A.F.P will hunt and eliminate all Abu sayaff, J.I. and M.I.L.F...dapat eto gawin ng government para mabilis nila matangal yung mga terrosita at rebel group...para after that peacefull na sa pinas;)

US Embassy slams Marines Beheading

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9142/QTV-US-Embassy-slams-Marines-beheading



Marines deployed to Basilan

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9138/400-Marines-deployed-to-Basilan

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/topstories/topstories/view_article.php?article_id=76962


ABS-CBN feels heat over MILF video

Allaga says misquoted but INQUIRER.net has tape

By Julie Alipala
INQUIRER.net, Mindanao Bureau
Last updated 10:53pm (Mla time) 07/16/2007


ZAMBOANGA CITY, Philippines -- One of the biggest television networks in the country could be the first casualty of the Human Security Act (HSA), the anti-terror law that took effect on Sunday.

David Santos, news chief of the ABS-CBN Zamboanga, said a ranking military general warned the media outfit could be considered a "coddler of a criminal" if it does not hand over video footage taken of Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) fighters right after the July 10 ambush and battle with Marine soldiers searching for kidnapped Italian priest, Fr. Giancarlo Bossi.

Under the HSA, individuals who know the identities of criminals could be charged with abetting crime if they refuse to cooperate with the government.

Santos was referring to an interview in Manila with Marine Brigadier General Nelson Allaga on Sunday.

He said Allaga told reporters that ABS-CBN should hand the military copies of the photos or videos taken of MILF rebels in Albarka, Basilan so that the Marines’ attackers could be identified.

"Who took those pictures? If they don't give it to us, they are coddling a criminal, covering up," Allaga allegedly said during the conference.

ABS-CBN admitted it took videos of MILF rebels in Barangay (village) Ginanta a day after the attack, in which 14 Marine soldiers were killed, 10 of them beheaded.

you may read further on the below link :

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/topstories/topstories/view_article.php?article_id=76962

http://images.inquirer.net/media/networkindex/images/pic-07160649340637.jpg
PEACEKEEPING MISSION. The military sends off a new batch
of peacekeepers to Liberia and Haiti during ceremonies in Camp Aguinaldo last monday.

300 peacekeeping troops fly to Haiti, Liberia

By Joel Guinto
INQUIRER.net
Last updated 10:02pm (Mla time) 07/16/2007

MANILA, Philippines -- The Armed Forces of the Philippines has sent over 300 troops on a peacekeeping mission to Haiti and Liberia as part of its commitment to the United Nations.

At least 165 soldiers and 155 others left for Haiti and Liberia Monday following ceremonies at Camp Aguinaldo in Quezon City.

The troops will be replacing existing deployments of the same number, whose six-year tours of duty are about to end, said Lieutenant General Antonio Romero, the Armed Forces Vice Chief of Staff.

The deployments will be the 8th for Liberia, and the 6th for Haiti, Romero told reporters.

"This [sending peacekeepers] will continue. This is our commitment to the United Nations," Romero told reporters.

In a speech, Romero told the peacekeepers: "Wear your flag-bearing uniforms with pride."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We need them in Pinas, I can understand the better pay when sent to a UN mission, but the battle is not there, they are most needed in the southern Philippines to promote peace and security to its citizens.

We need them in Pinas, I can understand the better pay when sent to a UN mission, but the battle is not there, they are most needed in the southern Philippines to promote peace and security to its citizens.

The only thing good I see in this is more than just the better pay. These troops will be exposed to real world deployments and hopefully, they will learn things they don't get to see in the Philippines. In particular, teamwork and leadership with other foreign national troops.

I do agree that they are needed in Mindanao, but the administration can allocate them from other areas (or maybe increase military recruitment? :dunno:)

^^ iyon na lang 3rd marine brigade ang ipadala natin. They're doing nothing in the NCR but babysitting la presidentita against a coup.

Sama na rin natin ang troops deployed in the slum areas of manila. pulis dapat ang gamitin for that role and not soldiers.

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/topstories/topstories/view_article.php?article_id=76962


ABS-CBN feels heat over MILF video

Allaga says misquoted but INQUIRER.net has tape

By Julie Alipala
INQUIRER.net, Mindanao Bureau
Last updated 10:53pm (Mla time) 07/16/2007


ZAMBOANGA CITY, Philippines -- One of the biggest television networks in the country could be the first casualty of the Human Security Act (HSA), the anti-terror law that took effect on Sunday.

David Santos, news chief of the ABS-CBN Zamboanga, said a ranking military general warned the media outfit could be considered a "coddler of a criminal" if it does not hand over video footage taken of Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) fighters right after the July 10 ambush and battle with Marine soldiers searching for kidnapped Italian priest, Fr. Giancarlo Bossi.

Under the HSA, individuals who know the identities of criminals could be charged with abetting crime if they refuse to cooperate with the government.

Santos was referring to an interview in Manila with Marine Brigadier General Nelson Allaga on Sunday.

He said Allaga told reporters that ABS-CBN should hand the military copies of the photos or videos taken of MILF rebels in Albarka, Basilan so that the Marines’ attackers could be identified.

"Who took those pictures? If they don't give it to us, they are coddling a criminal, covering up," Allaga allegedly said during the conference.

ABS-CBN admitted it took videos of MILF rebels in Barangay (village) Ginanta a day after the attack, in which 14 Marine soldiers were killed, 10 of them beheaded.

you may read further on the below link :

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/topstories/topstories/view_article.php?article_id=76962

Yes!!!

This will be a major victory for the fight against the corruption here in the Philippines.

I can't believe the media (ABS-CBN) is giving the investigators a hard time over this video...

Who are they (ABS-CBN) to decide that the MILF members weren't the killers??!! WTF??!! Whose side are they on anyway? :dunno:

Regardless what ABS-CBN feels, let the military do it's job. If ABS-CBN feels that the military will just use the video to lay blame indiscriminately to help clean-up the case, then they should just argue that in court.

No media company should consider themselves immune when they embed themselves like that during war with insurgents......