Philippine Defense Forces [Archive] - Page 5

TheAvenger

July 18th, 2007, 10:19 AM

I don't want to sound like I'm really disrespecting the AFP troops, but I really feel that the leadership there is ineffective. I disagree with you on this matter along with beads strawberries.

Experience doesn't really mean nothing unless you LEARN from your experiences. In these cases, it's not really the ambushes, but the ineffectiveness of the Philippine Defense forces in subduing the insurgents there for the last several DECADES....

And I will admit, it is more than just what the AFP can handle. Poverty, education, and development play roles in the matter. These are things beyond what the AFP can control at this time. But if the AFP were more effective, they can insure the safety and security there first so that education and development can flourish, thus fighting poverty as well.

But for now, what developer or investor would want to go there if even the AFP can't secure the area there?

Experience is a hollow word if you can't back it up with results. In combat, survival is a given, not a victory. Victory is when the mission is accomplished, which in this case means defeating the enemy and establishing security there....

it was experienced even by the US Military that it was difficult to stop or win a war of insurgencies / guerrila warfare. The US forces were there in Vietnam since the early 60s up to 1975 but they never won the war. How many thousands american troops
were killed in Vietnam ?

Remember how many hundreds of US Marines were killed in a single day in Beirut Lebanon a decade or two ago.

Remember Somalia, the US forces left in shame about 2 decade ago, they brought all there modern equipment but they never defeated their enemies, even the UN forces who take over also left, leaving Somalis as it is today.

did they defeat Al Qaeda in Afghanistan ? no never, Even the Soviet Russia lost their war of Occupation in that country.

How about Irag ? the US though not actually losing the war there, but they neither are winning the war. they got stuck there ... and to leave hastily ....it will mean loss of face for them ....

Guerilla war / insurgencies is not like conventional warfare where there is a fixed rule. You need at least 10 to 20 troops to fight 1 guerilla.

so no one can blame our Marines or soldier if they where ambushed... they don't know that an enemy is waiting for them in the bush. Is there a ground radar that can detect humans around you in the battlefield in the bush.

there is another way to defeat and fight the moro guerillas, if a soldier will take out their uniforms, wear civilian clothes, and mixed with the civilians in the insurgency area, hide in the bush and wait for the enemy. but it is against the Geneva Convention. If the rebels caught them ....... it is horrible
to think what they will do.

Try to sent the US Marines in Sulu, Basilan, and the rebel held area in Western Mindanao .......... see what will happen...
if they will be successful in a guerilla warfare.

Perhaps before losing face they will sent their bombers to firebombs the whole islands......

Well, my views is that the debacle in Basilan is owing failure of
Inteligence service...... we don't have spies in the rebel ranks to monitor their activities.

intelligence services of the military have to trained intell operatives in various dialects in the south .... teach them the cultures and their religions.... then embedded them in the civilian populations and the rebel forces...

i guess the military was able to do that in the NPA organization which results to the NPA's "kampanyang ahos" they cleansed the movements which unfortunately killed also many suspected but innocent and dedicated cadres.........., which results to the weakening of the NPA.

But it will be difficult to do that operations with regards to
filipino muslim guerillas.... unless we can win the hearts and minds of the filipino muslim civilians ... which is also nearly impossible to happens owing to centuries of fighting in the south where both the Spanish and American military have used Filipino christians in their colonial pacification campaign of Mindanao, Basilan, and Sulu.

jgacis

July 18th, 2007, 11:43 AM

it was experienced even by the US Military that it was difficult to stop or win
a war of insurgencies / guerrila warfare.

Yes. You are absolutely correct and I will not debate with you on that.

The US forces were there in Vietnbam since the early 60s up to 1975 but they never won the war.

Military, the U.S won, politically, we lost (just like what is happening to the filipinos right now.. :()

Remember how many hundreds of US Marines were killed in a single day in Beirut Lebanon a decade or two ago.

Yes, I remember. A yellow Mercedes truck filled with explosives ran through the barricades and leveled the building where the marines where staying. There were French soldiers killed also. Not just Americans. What was the outcome? The U.S. and French sent a message to those terrorists by STAYING IN LEBANON until the following year, bombing enemy targets!!!

Remember Somalia, the US forces left in shame about 2 decade ago, they brought all there modern equipment but they never defeated their enemies, even the UN forces who take over also left, leaving Somalis as it is today.

It's not a shame when you have the guts to fight against the enemy (warlords) who steal food supplies from the U.N. and international-aid organizations. These warlords were controlling the food supplies and manipulating the masses for their corrupted political regimes. While the majority of countries just watched, brave soldiers went downtown to do something about it. And many paid for it with their lives. You might call that shame, but I, even as a filipino, call that bravery....

did they defeat Al Qaeda in Afghanistan ? no never, Even the Soviet Russia lost their war of Occupation in that country.

True. And yes, the CIA helped people like Bin Laden to fight the Soviets. But who was the #1 enemy of the U.S. at that time? Bin Laden? No, it was the Soviets near the end of the Cold War. Do I agree to this? Yes and no. I agree we needed to do what had to be done in defeating the enemy (Soviets). But the way we did it wasn't the best way.

In related matters, the Soviet/Afghan war de-stabilized the southern part of the USSR (Central Asia) and broke up into several countries after that (the -STANS, like Uzbekistan, where I was stationed there for 2 1/2 months).

Here's a little story of my deployment there (in Uzbekistan). The president is an ex-Soviet political figure who has some of the worst human-rights abuses as labeled by international watch groups. Why? Because of political killings/abuses. The Soviets and muslims do not mix to well (look at Bosnia-Serbia War). Because of its location (just north of Afghanistan), many residents are muslims and follow the islamic faith. Sure enough, you also get extremists from the nearby countries like Afghanistan and Iranian proxies through Turkmenistan. Our U.S. base was near the Afghan border. We needed to operate there for U.S. military logistical support in Afghanistan. We were granted to operate there with the understanding from Moscow.

But what happened next? People complained that the U.S. supported a country that committed human rights abuses. These are probably the same people complaining about the political killings in the Philippines! When Condoleeza Rice finally made a gesture to the Uzbek government (through the U.N.) to stop the killings (primarily against the muslims), the Uzbek government told our U.S. base to dismantle and leave.

Do you see how politics work in the international arena? For the U.S., we focus on long-term goals (like fighting and defeating our current #1 enemies). The ways and means are secondary (and this is where U.S. bashing occurs). But we accomplish our missions (most of the time, as history as shown) and this is the most important thing.

The MILF is the same way. They are able to get away with murder because they focus on the goals/end result (their survival and expansion). Their ways and means are SECONDARY (like negotiating with our president, murders, beheadings). The Philippine AFP and national administration has it BALIKTAD. They focus on the MEANS (like peace, negotiating talks) while our soldiers heads are being cut-off :ohno:

I understand there must be a balance, but you must choose your priorities my friend. For the Philippines, it must choose to accomplish it's goals/mission. If our filipino culture and way of thinking hinders us from doing this, we need to change our way of thinking...

How about Irag ? the US though not actually losing the war there, but they neither are winning the war. they got stuck there ... and to leave hastily ....it will mean loss of face for them ....

For the U.S., unlike the Philippines, it is never about losing face. It's about finishing the job that we started. All filipinos worry or think about is WALANG HIYA. Yet, when we murder or steal from each other, we don't care about walang hiya, what's up with this? :ohno:

Guerilla war / insurgencies is not like conventional warfare where there is a fixed rule. You need at least 10 to 20 troops to fight 1 guerilla.

I've read about 3 books on general and guerilla warfare. You are right. There is no fixed rule. So why does the Philippines insists on following their own "rules" when the MILF doesn't follow them? In guerilla warfare, you fight the enemy using unconventional means. You also defeat them by demoralizing them from their cause. Where there is no will, there is no fight. Are we showing will by having peacetalks with a group of people who just killed 14 of our marines? :ohno: :ohno: :ohno:

so anyone can blame our Marines or soldier if they where ambushed... they don't know that an enemy is waiting for them in the bush. Is there a ground radar that can detect humans around you in the battlefield in the bush.

I am blaming the leadership of the AFP for the death of those marines. I hope I made myself clear on this with you. 10 beheadings is UNACCEPTABLE and there should be a change in command for those marines.

there is another way to defeat and fight the moro guerillas, if a soldier will take out their uniforms, wear civilian clothes, and mixed with the civilians in the insurgency area, hide in the bush and wait for the enemy. but it is against the Geneva Convention. If the rebels caught them ....... it is horrible
to think what they will do.

The AFP needs to set up permament posts there and maintain order. The national administration needs to disolve the A.R.M.M. and NOT recognize the MILF, MNLF, JI, ASG, etc. as organizations that can be negotiated with through peace talks. If there is a threat of rebels doing horrible things, then we need to eradicate that threat. The "BAHALA NA" attitude will only kill more marines and civilians. You think the rebels care? :ohno:

Try to sent the US Marines in Sulu, Basilan, and the rebel held area in Western Mindanao .......... see what will happen...
if they will be successful in a guerilla warfare.

I have no doubts that if the US Marines enter Basilan, Sulu, & Jolo islands there will be casualties. But I can bet you that they will be more effective in hunting them down than the AFP. Even if they are not filipinos, their WILL to win, IMO, is stronger.

And if you look at all those U.S. wars you listed, they were there to fight communism, fight islamic insurgencies, kill warlords who steal U.N. food supplies, and so many other things that other nations/countries aren't willing to do.

Well, my views is that the debacle in Basilan is owing failure of
Inteligence service...... we don't have spies in the rebel ranks to monitor their activities.

intelligence services of the military have to trained intell operatives in various dialects in the south .... teach them the cultures and their religions.... then embedded them in the civilian populations and the rebel forces...

i guess the military was able to do that in the NPA organization which results to the NPA's "kampanyang ahos" they cleansed the movements which unfortunately killed also many suspected but innocent and dedicated cadres.........., which results to the weakening of the NPA.

But it will be difficult to do that operations with regards to
filipino muslim guerillas.... unless we can win the hearts and minds of the filipino muslim civilians ... which is also nearly impossible to happens owing to centuries of fighting in the south where both the Spanish and American military have used Filipino christians in their colonial pacification campaign of Mindanao, Basilan, and Sulu.

I agree. A good intelligence unit will be a tremendous asset against the war with these barbarians...

heathcliff

July 18th, 2007, 11:43 AM

I think the AFP commanding officers of the marines are the ones ineffective. They should be court-marshalled or reduced-in-rank.

If we keep getting ambushes, I don't think those troops should be called MARINES... :ohno:

That's what you think. These are the same soldiers who liquidated Khaddafy Janjalani months ago. Remember, people were praising them to the skies? Now they get ambushed and suddenly you don't think they should be called Marines?

I agree with The Avenger. Try sending U.S. Marines to Basilan. Why do you think the U.S. government is giving millions in reward merely for information on the whereabouts of ASG leaders? What about Afghanistan? You've been there years and still no WMDs. With all your modern weapons and equipment, you can't even find one man in all those years! Pointing fingers at us for not being able to end insurgency is in poor taste under the circumstances.

el_dasik_oo1

July 18th, 2007, 11:53 AM

kaso pang malayuan lang ang gamit niyan. anti personnel up to 1km. anti APC din. pero sa basilan, ewan ko kung effective ang AGL, labas ang buong katawan ng operator habang ginagamit ang sandata.

sa report tungkol sa basilan encounter, binabanatan ng MI ang viewing slits ng mga simba. rendered ineffective ang dalawang APC kahit walang RPG ang kalaban.

Bibilib ka rin sa itl*g at kakayahan ng mandirigmang MILF. Small arms lang ang gamit pero hindi takot sa bakal.

yun nga lang.. Delikado rin sa mga snipers yan.. Maybe they could do something about. Pang-proteksyon para sa mga ganyan..

Yep.. Pero I think they already prove it dati pa kung gaano sila katapang pagdating sa labanan eh.. Yun nga lang and I won't generalize them.. Me mga bugok na itl*g din sa hanay nila. Ang alam ko labag sa koran yung ginawa nung iba na pugutan tsaka i-mutilate yung mga kalaban.. :ohno:

TheAvenger

July 18th, 2007, 12:14 PM

jgacis

July 18th, 2007, 12:14 PM

That's what you think. These are the same soldiers who liquidated Khaddafy Janjalani months ago. Remember, people were praising them to the skies? Now they get ambushed and suddenly you don't think they should be called Marines?

Same exact soldiers? Same exact commanders?!!

My point is not the soldiers, but the commanders (or whoever trained those guys and allowed them to search for the Italian priest) who where CLUELESS on the INTEL/COM-SEC ISSUES (why tell ABS-CBN or GMA they received a text message on the whereabouts of that priest???!!! AY NAKO!!!). Hence, that increased their risks of being killed.

If you have intel info. critical to a military operation, would you, as a AFP spokesperson, tell the whole world about it?????? :ohno: :ohno:

People who commit DERELICTION-OF-DUTY should not be called marines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dereliction_of_duty

Obviously, in this case, the people responsible for rushing these troops without proper protocols. Look at the intel given to the media, the stuck truck in the mud, the focus on the mortar duds (which wasn't the major decisive factor in the attacks), lack of back-up support, etc....

I've been to Basilan. Most of the people there are actually nice. They are just like the rest of the filipinos of this nation. There is even a Jollibee there in Basilan. Yet, a few want to make a name for themselves and take the whole area hostage against the rest of the nation.

Try sending U.S. Marines to Basilan. Why do you think the U.S. government is giving millions in reward merely for information on the whereabouts of ASG leaders? What about Afghanistan? You've been there years and still no WMDs. With all your modern weapons and equipment, you can't even find one man in all those years! Pointing fingers at us for not being able to end insurgency is in poor taste under the circumstances.

Who said the U.S. is perfect? True, Bin Laden is still alive, but he is living like an insect inside a cave. Care to join him? No WMDs? Good, aren't you glad there won't be? Not now, nor in the future! Besides, Saddam used WMDs against the Kurds. He has set the historical precedence among the international community. Let his actions speak for themselves, yet you cry there was no WMDs because we actually didn't see them. What a joke....

But the Philippines? Efforts against the MILF/ASG is PATHETIC.....

They will come back and kill again until the Philippine AFP and adminstration takes a stronger stance in this matter.....

jgacis

July 18th, 2007, 12:29 PM

Quote:
The US forces were there in Vietnbam since the early 60s up to 1975 but they never won the war.

Military, the U.S won, politically, we lost (just like what is happening to the filipinos right now.. )
Quote :

----------------------------------------------------------

the U.S won, politically ? " Won " by selling out the vietnamese in the Paris Peace Conference.

In Paris, the US have agreed secretly with the Soviets and the North Vietnamese that the US forces will get out from Vietnam.

While promising the South Vietnamese that they will still help them in fighting the north. that stance led to the debacle in the Mountain Highlands which leads later to the fall of Danang, Qui Nhon, Cam Ranh Bay, and later Saigon.

how can we trust the American , if later when US combat troops is introduce
in the Mindanao conflict and later your political leaders wants you to withdraw from the war .......... you will sell us also to the Islamic Fundamentalist countries for the Americans greater political interest in southeast asia.

Can we trust the Americans which have also other political interest in the region ? Can we trust the USA when in the Japanese War the US HIgh command have ordered the Fil Am forces to defend the Bataan Peninsula and Corregidor till the last man (as per War Plan Orange) then at the same time committing US Forces in North Africa without intention of fulfilling the promise to the soldiers in Bataan and Corregidor that reinforcement is coming ..... coming to North Africa. just another political double talk.

America can help us by supplying military equipments but not combat troops, since you will just widen the war and later you will withdraw to protect the greater American political interest in the region.

The U.S. lost the war politically. The war "stopped" and we evacuated when this happened. We never LOST militarily in the sense that we gave up because they defeated us on the battlefield (Why don't you look at the number of casualties between the U.S. and Vietnamese? :ohno: ) Do you need further explanation on this???

You don't have to trust the U.S. or anybody. U.S. selling you to the Islamic countries? How much shabu have you been smoking? Are you more concerned about American interests OVERRIDING PHILIPPINE interests? Will this destroy our Philippine nation (to the contrary, IMO). America has done more good for the filipinos than bad, and here you are whining about U.S. interests.

But the U.S. won't be bothered. It will continue to help the Philippines and channel funds into the AFP via the Balikatan exercises. It holds the higher standard.

Of course you won't find shame in this. Who cares about the U.S., as long as the filipino benefits, di ba? :ohno:

TheAvenger

July 18th, 2007, 01:00 PM

^^ ^^
[Quote]
You don't have to trust the U.S. or anybody. U.S. selling you to the Islamic countries? How much shabu have you been smoking? Are you more concerned about American interests OVERRIDING PHILIPPINE interests? Will this destroy our Philippine nation (to the contrary, IMO). America has done more good for the filipinos than bad, and here you are whining about U.S. interests. [quote}

so you are insinuating that those Pinoy nationalist were shabu smokers "

pls note that I knew quite well the Vietnam War. I was 20 years old when I was there as part of the civilian component of the US War machines, we do the hydrographic surveys for a year. I always heard the Americans and Vietnamese talking about war and politics but that time I am more interested chasing the vietnamese girls in the vicinity of American military base. :)

I have seen the american planes dropping napalm in the far off mountains, since most of the grass and vegetations in the river banks and some coastal areas were already burned by napalm.

many times cannot sleep hearing the uninterrupted dropping of hand grenades and depth charges in the coast and rivers of vietnam by the american patrols. you will be numbed and go crasy hearing helicopters flying the whole night, wasting their bombs and cannon fire on their unseen enemies.... :)

after the vietnam war I always follow the story of US Military actions in all parts of the world. I was there in the middle east during the 1st gulf war, etc.

I was in the soviet union before and after the break up of that
socialist state.

I read newspaper, magazines, books, and interview people any place in the wold I came to visit.so you cannot say that I got those info I posted here because of shabu. i never smoke shabu or other drugs like you.

dinabaw

July 18th, 2007, 02:41 PM

imo war is won not only who can inflict the most casualties", but also to inflict strategic & psychological damages.

TheAvenger

July 18th, 2007, 03:01 PM

Same exact soldiers? Same exact commanders?!!

My point is not the soldiers, but the commanders (or whoever trained those guys and allowed them to search for the Italian priest) who where CLUELESS on the INTEL/COM-SEC ISSUES (why tell ABS-CBN or GMA they received a text message on the whereabouts of that priest???!!! AY NAKO!!!). Hence, that increased their risks of being killed.

If you have intel info. critical to a military operation, would you, as a AFP spokesperson, tell the whole world about it?????? :ohno: :ohno:

People who commit DERELICTION-OF-DUTY should not be called marines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dereliction_of_duty

Obviously, in this case, the people responsible for rushing these troops without proper protocols. Look at the intel given to the media, the stuck truck in the mud, the focus on the mortar duds (which wasn't the major decisive factor in the attacks), lack of back-up support, etc....

I've been to Basilan. Most of the people there are actually nice. They are just like the rest of the filipinos of this nation. There is even a Jollibee there in Basilan. Yet, a few want to make a name for themselves and take the whole area hostage against the rest of the nation.

Who said the U.S. is perfect? True, Bin Laden is still alive, but he is living like an insect inside a cave. Care to join him? No WMDs? Good, aren't you glad there won't be? Not now, nor in the future! Besides, Saddam used WMDs against the Kurds. He has set the historical precedence among the international community. Let his actions speak for themselves, yet you cry there was no WMDs because we actually didn't see them. What a joke....

But the Philippines? Efforts against the MILF/ASG is PATHETIC.....

They will come back and kill again until the Philippine AFP and adminstration takes a stronger stance in this matter.....

Do you think the US really wants to help the Philippines militarily ? In my views they want to help us because they are afraid of the Indonesians and Malaysia became an Islamic fundamentalist state. So they want now a foothold in the Philippines and particularly in the south, because they are preparing for their strategic plans for the future.

TheAvenger

July 18th, 2007, 03:30 PM

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/world/view_article.php?article_id=77424

Agence France-Presse
Last updated 09:04pm (Mla time) 07/18/2007

LONDON -- Royal Air Force fighter jets were scrambled after two Russian bombers were intercepted off the coast of Norway, the defense ministry said Wednesday, after reports they were heading for British airspace.

Two RAF Tornados from Britain's rapid reaction force took off from RAF base Leeming in northern England on Tuesday after two Royal Norwegian Air Force F-16s intercepted two Tu95 "Bear" bombers, it said.

A defense ministry spokesman, speaking on the customary condition of anonymity, told Agence France-Presse: "We did scramble the jets but they did not intercept the Russians.”

"As I understand it, the Norwegians actually intercepted the Russian aircraft off their coast. They didn't come into British airspace." Britain and Norway are separated by the North Sea.

He said there was no connection between the rare incident and Britain's plans to deport four Russian diplomats because of Moscow's refusal to extradite a key suspect for the murder of outspoken dissident Alexander Litvinenko.

Russia has promised a "targeted and appropriate" response to Britain's decision.

The Times on Tuesday also said there was nothing to suggest a connection with the diplomatic standoff, but it smacked of "old-fashioned saber-rattling" by Russia and revived "the spirit of the Cold War" in the North Atlantic.

"Any link between that activity and what's happening in London just now is pure speculation," the spokesman told AFP.

Russia, which runs regular aircraft patrols from a base near the northern port city of Murmansk in the Arctic Circle, was equally firm in denying any connection.

Air force colonel Alexander Drobyshevsky was quoted by the news agency Interfax as saying: "Claims that Russian bombers were headed for British airspace don't correspond with reality.

"Long-distance planes were making planned flights over international waters. These kind of flights have been and are carried out to train long-distance flight crews."

Air force general-colonel Alexander Zelin told Interfax that long-distance planes hold regular flight exercises, including bomb and rocket launches.

But he added: "We plan our bomber flights in international airspace according to our military preparation program at least six months in advance. And we warn the relevant countries in advance.

"These aren't shows of force or saber-rattling, but planned military preparations. What's more, we make timely applications to use international air corridors

TheAvenger

July 18th, 2007, 03:52 PM

http://gmapinoytv.igma.tv/sidetrip/blog/index.php?/archives/253-Were-US-weapons-used-to-kill-Philippine-Marines.html#extended

Monday, July 16. 2007

Were US weapons used to kill Philippine Marines?

"A MILF commander showed me several M-16 assault rifles equipped with night vision scopes." -- American journalist Eliza Griswold

It's been another heart-breaking news week. Fourteen mostly young Marines killed, ten of them beheaded and mutilated, in Tipo-Tipo, Basilan in an ambush by the MILF. GMA News' man Jun Veneracion and his crew, JC Catibog and Donnie Ramos, were there, covering much of the seven-hour battle while flat on their stomachs. A bullet grazed Donnie's unhelmeted head. They had enough wiggle room to videotape mortar shells that wouldn't fire. Duds. In the heat of battle.

That has provoked outrage from all corners, including senatorial upstart Antonio Trillanes who has his first issue tailor-made for him. (Let's just hope, for the sake of his former comrades in arms, that he performs better in the senate than he did as a rebel leader. I recall sitting in GMA7's studio in the early morning of the Oakwood uprising and reading Trillanes's incoherent statement to the public, just a step up from the wild rants issued by the crazy Cho before going amok at Virginia Tech.)

Jun Veneracion reported that the Marines in Tipo-Tipo were badly outgunned: mortars that wouldn't fire, ineffective air support. That would seem strange, if one just considers the amount of firearms being shipped to the armed forces' hands. A recent report by the US-based Center for Public Integrity claims:

"The $245.6 million in military aid that the Philippines received from the United States in the three years following 9/11 was up from just $14.6 million in the three years before the terrorist attacks -- a staggering increase of more than 1,500 percent."

So just as staggering would be the notion of being outgunned by a ragtag band of bandits, until one considers another assertion in the same report:

The Philippine military has a sordid history of complicity with the same insurgent groups it ostensibly fights, which includes a long-standing practice of selling weapons to the rebels, said Eliza Griswold, a journalist who has covered South Asia extensively; her stories have appeared in The New York Times, National Geographic and other major publications. "The United States has supplied the Armed Forces of the Philippines with high-tech weaponry that some members of the [Philippine military] have gone on to sell to the insurgents," she said.

Last year, Griswold traveled to the southern Philippine island of Mindanao and interviewed members of the Moro Islamic Liberation Front, an Islamic separatist group that has fought the government since 1977.

"I have never seen the level of military hardware that I saw in the MILF camp," she said. "A MILF commander showed me several M-16 assault rifles equipped with night vision scopes. So not only does the Philippine military have those, but [the MILF commander] has also bought them from the Philippine security forces."

Griswold said the MILF commander told her that the increased presence of high-tech weaponry is leading to a higher casualty rate on both sides of the fight.

We have been hearing of weapons being sold to the Abu Sayyaf ever since Father Cirilo Nacorda reported seeing boxes of American-made ammunition in his captors' Basilan camp while he was a hostage in the mid 1990s. The details of those first forays by the Abu Sayyaf are in the excellent book by Joe Torres, Into the Mountain.

While charges of complicity are nothing new, the main difference today is the extra US influence that one presumes comes from a 1,500 percent increase in US military aid since 9/11. The Americans must realize that complicity with an Islamic terrorist/rebel group is a threat to US interests as much as it is to Philippine soldiers and civilians. The Arroyo government is regarded as an important US ally in the fight against terrorism. But if Arroyo's military officers aid the enemy without ever getting punished, or even seriously probed, one must start to wonder if this is a true ally or simply a weak regime afraid of its own military. If it's the latter, then Filipino generals will bow down to no one except for their American benefactors.

One US embassy official formerly based in Manila caused some bilateral heat by comparing Mindanao to Afghanistan as a haven for foreign terrorists. No one would want the US to start bombing Mindanao and complete the analogy. But at the very least, it may want to use that extra influence to stop the clandestine sale of US weapons to their enemies. Some of those same weapons may have been used to kill the young Marines in last week's ambush. They could also be aimed at US soldiers now stationed in Mindanao.

----------

The tragic episode in Tipo-Tipo reminded me of another time journalists got caught in the crossfire in Basilan, back in June 2001, at the infamous seige of Lamitan, where newly trained, supposedly elite Army Scout Rangers too were badly outgunned, before the surrounded Abu Sayyaf leadership -- Janjalani, Sabaya, and Sulaiman -- escaped with most of their hostages, who included the American missionary couple, Gracia and Martin Burnham.

Official probes into that debacle got nowhere, despite investigations in aid of legislation in both house of Congress that pointed to senior military officers having secret transactions with the Abu Sayyaf.

That could easily qualify as among the greatest failures in Philippine military history. Inquirer journalist John Nery did a memorable perspective piece on that incident a couple of years ago that earned him and his newspaper a libel complaint, a piece that has since disappeared from the Inquirer archives. But he has written about it and Gracia's heroic dignity in his blog.

I cannot help but bring up the Lamitan botched seige again and again because it lies buried under the rug, along with other acts of treason.

When troops fighting and dying in the field cannot be sure of the loyalty of their own superiors, it is no surprise why an army backed by the most powerful nation on earth cannot defeat a bandit group concentrated on a few islands.

The above story aired on the Probe Team in June 2001. The same piece will be part of my commemorative DVD coming out soon that will mark my tenth year in television.

Posted by Howie Severino in In the News at 19:46 | Comments (11) | Trackbacks (0) | Top Exits (0)

TheAvenger

July 18th, 2007, 08:40 PM

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/metro/view_article.php?article_id=77451

By Ramon Tulfo
Inquirer
Last updated 11:41pm (Mla time) 07/18/2007

The Abu Sayyaf and the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) joined forces in ambushing the Marines on their way home and later beheaded and mutilated some of them.

True or false?

False. There were no Abu Sayyaf bandits among the ambushers, according to my informant, a military intelligence agent.

My unimpeachable source said the attackers were members of the Moro Islamic Liberation Front and the men of former Basilan Gov. Wahab Akbar whose wife is now the incumbent governor.

The Abu Sayyaf bandits, who were holding Italian priest Giancarlo Bossi, were nowhere near the area as they were running away from their military pursuers.

The MILF and Akbar’s men ambushed the Marine convoy to give the Abu Sayyaf kidnappers time to escape from their pursuers.

Akbar got 800 firearms from unidentified sources before the senatorial and local elections and distributed these among his men and other groups, my source said.

Some of the firearms were allegedly used in the ambush of the Marines.

Apart from rifles, the MILF and Akbar’s men used rifle-propelled grenades and 81 mm mortars in ambushing the Marines.

According to my source, the MILF has RPGs or rifle-propelled grenades, but they don’t have 81 mm mortars. Only Akbar has.

Question: Who provided Akbar with the 800 M-16 and M-14 rifles and 81 mm mortars?

Why did the military allow Akbar’s men to have 81 mm mortars that are for the exclusive use of the military?

On the subject of air support, an OV 10 attack helicopter and two MG520 hovered over the scene of the fighting, but left without firing a shot, said my source.

The UH1H helicopter also hovered over the area, but left also without firing a shot. A gunner of one of the “Huey” choppers was hit, forcing the pilot to return to base.

It could not be determined why the reinforcement aircraft left and literally fed the ground troops to the dogs.

The only officer who could order the dispatch and withdrawal of air support to beleaguered troops was Lt. Gen. Eugene Cedo, chief of the Western Mindanao Command (Wesmincom).

Cedo was not at the Wesmincom headquarters in Zamboanga City, but in Cagayan de Oro City reportedly attending a security summit there.

Since Cedo was not in his area of command, he would not know the situation on the ground.

The military inefficiency in Basilan, as far as air support was concerned, seems a reenactment of the military bungling in the Abu Sayyaf raid at Dos Palmas resort in Palawan.

The Western Command under a Commodore Rabago didn’t send aircraft to pursue the kidnappers who were riding on a fast seacraft. Rabago was reportedly playing golf at the time of the raid.

* * *

jgacis

July 18th, 2007, 09:20 PM

so you are insinuating that those Pinoy nationalist were shabu smokers "

Are you accusing me of bashing Pinoy nationalist???!!! :mad2: Who said you can represent Pinoy nationalists???!!! :mad2:

i was referring SPECIFICALLY to YOU, for your remarks about U.S. selling-out the Philippines to Islamic Countries!!!!!! WTF???!!!! :ohno:

pls note that I knew quite well the Vietnam War. I was 20 years old when I was there as part of the civilian component of the US War machines, we do the hydrographic surveys for a year. I always heard the Americans and Vietnamese talking about war and politics but that time I am more interested chasing the vietnamese girls in the vicinity of American military base. :)

Okay, so you are older than me. I am also over 30 years old and I am in the U.S. military, a TSgt. I am a full-blooded pinoy and I do wish the Philippines to be a powerful nation one day. And yes, I probably would have done the same thing you did.. :)

I have seen the american planes dropping napalm in the far off mountains, since most of the grass and vegetations in the river banks and some coastal areas were already burned by napalm.

many times cannot sleep hearing the uninterrupted dropping of hand grenades and depth charges in the coast and rivers of vietnam by the american patrols. you will be numbed and go crasy hearing helicopters flying the whole night, wasting their bombs and cannon fire on their unseen enemies.... :)

after the vietnam war I always follow the story of US Military actions in all parts of the world. I was there in the middle east during the 1st gulf war, etc.

I was in the soviet union before and after the break up of that
socialist state.

I read newspaper, magazines, books, and interview people any place in the wold I came to visit.so you cannot say that I got those info I posted here because of shabu.

My shabu remark was an "off-remark" based on your "off-remark" opinion that U.S. interests will involve the Philippines being "SOLD-OFF" to Islamic Fundamentalist countries!!! STUPID!!! :ohno:

I have been deployed to the Middle East also, and have seen the effects of war through my own eyes as well. I don't see your experiences any better than mine.

i never smoke shabu or other drugs like you.

Like what I said, I'm in the military and here U.S. Air Force standards wouldn't tolerate drug abuse, unlike the Philippines.... :ohno:

bitoy

July 18th, 2007, 09:35 PM

jgacis

July 18th, 2007, 09:38 PM

Do you think the US really wants to help the Philippines militarily ? In my views they want to help us because they are afraid of the Indonesians and Malaysia became an Islamic fundamentalist state. So they want now a foothold in the Philippines and particularly in the south, because they are preparing for their strategic plans for the future.

If this is what you believe, then I do agree with the last part "their strategic plans for the future".

But I TOTALLY DISAGREE with you on your zenophobic views about U.S/Philippine relationships. U.S. has done more good for Pinas than bad. The U.S., although colonizers, were way much better than the Spaniards and kicked them out of the islands.

1. Women's rights, (suffrage), was the first in the ENTIRE SEA (Southeast Asia) under U.S. rule during the mid 1930s parliamentary elections. This was the first in history at that time.

2. They implemented a better health-care system

3. Implementation of a postal system.

4. Build schools and better roads

5. Improved hygiene for the filipinos

6. Promoted better education. A perfect example where the Thomasites, a pioneer of hundreds of U.S. teachers, named after the ship (U.S.S. Thomas) they arrived on.

7. Introduced English language use and has helped the filipinos remain competitive internationally.

8. The U.S. VOLUNTARILY left the Philippines after filipinos like you wanted them out. Try that with the communists like Russia or China during that time.... so-called U.S. "interests" protected the Philippines from a major communist take-over and from imperial Japan who probably would have never left the Philippines.

Plus many more....

So is this a country (U.S.) that wants a FOOTHOLD on the Philippines? I'm from the U.S., and I help my relatives out there tremendously. Regardless if the U.S. achieves strategic plans there, the Philippines couldn't get any worse, only better. That wouldn't stop me from helping filipinos any differently, especially my relatives there.

That's the problem with filipinos that have your mentality. You love to have your doubts, but want a piece of the action (or benefits) without the risks.

I think you are totally clueless how American interests there have changed the lives of filipinos tremendously around the world..... :ohno:

jgacis

July 18th, 2007, 09:45 PM

MILF given one week
to surrender ambushers

http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2007/july/19/yehey/top_stories/20070719top2.html

It's about time the AFP and administration tell these clowns what we stand for (the right to punish those who violate our freedom (Bossi) and safety (beheadings/killings)).

The MILF claimed responsibility for the attack, but denied its forces committed atrocities.

This is such an OXYMORON!!! Admitted responsibilty for the attack that killed marines, yet denying committing atrocities?

So killing our marines isn't an atrocity? :ohno:

jgacis

July 18th, 2007, 09:50 PM

The Abu Sayyaf and the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) joined forces in ambushing the Marines on their way home and later beheaded and mutilated some of them.

True or false?

False. There were no Abu Sayyaf bandits among the ambushers, according to my informant, a military intelligence agent.

My unimpeachable source said the attackers were members of the Moro Islamic Liberation Front and the men of former Basilan Gov. Wahab Akbar whose wife is now the incumbent governor.

The Abu Sayyaf bandits, who were holding Italian priest Giancarlo Bossi, were nowhere near the area as they were running away from their military pursuers.

Who cares if the ASG did or did not take part in the beheadings at this point!!!!

The point is that they kidnapped a person and are holding him hostage!!! They are just as guilty, if not worse, than the MILF who killed our marines!!!

What kind of mentality do some of these filipinos have nowadays??!! :ohno: :dunno:

TheAvenger

July 19th, 2007, 12:13 AM

Try to look here on another angle ....

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/pdff.jpg

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/luwaran.jpg

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/luwaran2.jpg

gen1

July 19th, 2007, 01:33 AM

I think the AFP commanding officers of the marines are the ones ineffective. They should be court-marshalled or reduced-in-rank.

If we keep getting ambushes, I don't think those troops should be called MARINES... :ohno:

I hope you're not trying insult these marines. Much of Infantry Combat Tactics revolve around setting ambushes and defending against it.

The marines were in the receiving end of an ambush and got their nose bloodied. Such is war. the company commanding officer made tactical errors, and as I have observed earlier should be sternly dealt with.

On the other hand, the history of united states armed forces is replete with incidents of ambushes that resulted in severe casualties to the american soldiers.

One such example is the annihilation of the cavalry under that braggart Gen. Custer.

Fast Forward to the present day, there are over 3,000 cold american bodies in Iraq. Many of these well trained soldiers the victim of IED ambuscades

Should these gallant american soldiers be thought of less for being victims of ambushes ?

dinabaw

July 19th, 2007, 03:16 AM

^^ i agree w/ you .insulting those marines is uncalled for ...well i watched and read US Marine being slauthered in Irag & Afghanistan too :ohno:

beads_strawberries

July 19th, 2007, 03:29 AM

^^ It really looks like an ambush. More annoying is the fact that they beheaded those marines after they kill them. Such inhumane acts could really resort to the idea of revenge for some.

I wonder why they keep on insisting that they have not beheaded those marines but admitted hey have attacked them. Some things must have gone wrong, coordination with the ASG counterpart, maybe.

bitoy

July 19th, 2007, 03:35 AM

TheAvenger

July 19th, 2007, 05:43 AM

Who cares if the ASG did or did not take part in the beheadings at this point!!!!

The point is that they kidnapped a person and are holding him hostage!!! They are just as guilty, if not worse, than the MILF who killed our marines!!!

What kind of mentality do some of these filipinos have nowadays??!! :ohno: :dunno:
------------------------------------------------------

btw if you will read various news and messages, like Inquirer's Howie Severino, Ramon Tulfo's. comment in Opus Dei/timawa.net and the pronouncement of MILF in Luwaran.net, and the Phil Marines we can come to this conclusions and more questions :)

1. MILF ambushed the Marines.

2. Abu Sayaff not in the immediate vicinity of the battle.

3. Marines and MILF left the battle site and since MILF spokesman Haji Murad maintained that they were not the one who beheaded the Marines.

4. The people who went next to the battlefield is the people from the LGU Provincial Governor. The former Governor of Basilan is a former commander of MNLF, at present the Governor of Basilan is the wife of the former Governor.

5. According to MILF they killed 30 Marines in that battle and not decapitated, while the Marines maintained that it was 14 Marines were killed.

6. then now MILF is silent about the excess of 16 person killed, in some papers they gave a hints that the 16 uniform men killed were neither the AbuSayaff, MILF, and I reckoned not the Marines either. Who were the other 16 combatants ?

7. In one news the Marine spokeman Colonel mentioned that the ABS-CBN is keeping a video of the retrieval of the dead. what happen to the Video ? where is the video now ? why the silence ?

Who beheaded the Marines ?

Try to look in the other angle of the mirror .

jgacis

July 19th, 2007, 06:14 AM

I hope you're not trying insult these marines. Much of Infantry Combat Tactics revolve around setting ambushes and defending against it.

The marines were in the receiving end of an ambush and got their nose bloodied. Such is war. the company commanding officer made tactical errors, and as I have observed earlier should be sternly dealt with.

On the other hand, the history of united states armed forces is replete with incidents of ambushes that resulted in severe casualties to the american soldiers.

One such example is the annihilation of the cavalry under that braggart Gen. Custer.

Fast Forward to the present day, there are over 3,000 cold american bodies in Iraq. Many of these well trained soldiers the victim of IED ambuscades

Should these gallant american soldiers be thought of less for being victims of ambushes ?

When I say they shouldn't be called marines, I say that in the general sense of the way those marines keep being ambushed based on their training and what was given to them prior to those missions.

No back-up? No proper intel? Heads being cut-off?

Sure, go ahead and compare it with Iraq. 3,000 sounds like a large figure doesn't it. Compare that with 58,000+ american soldiers who were killed in Vietnam, a huge reduction due to efficiencies caused by U.S. political bashings from people like you.

Compare those 3000+ brave souls with the tens of thousands of civilians dead caused by Al Qaeda and Islamic insurgents. U.S. forces are fighting insurgents in the hundreds, if not thousands. Way much more than the MILF, MNLF, and ASG combined. Those terrorists are also better trained and have unlimited supplies from their Iranian proxies and huge terror network. Your numerical references are a joke when you look at the broader picture, which many are too narrow-minded to see.

I wouldn't call those AFP troops marines if AFP leadership doesn't know proper protocols/training and keep sending those brave men to the slaughterhouse like that without at LEAST proper training and intel. I only say this based on their failure of leadership and training. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that, based on those videos and intel info. that the AFP keeps feeding to the media... :ohno:

Just read some of the last several articles posted. Is it true that U.S. arms are being sold-off to the MILF by Philippine military personnel? I wouldn't be the least surprised.

Would you call someone like that a marine? :ohno:

Don't fool yourself, the AFP should be supported, but they are not as glamorous with all that corruption taking place among the ranks....

TheAvenger

July 19th, 2007, 06:28 AM

http://www.tribune.net.ph/commentary/20070719com1.html

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/fullsupport.jpg

Not deserving of either title

EDITORIAL of the Daily Tribune

pls read further on the below web link :

http://www.tribune.net.ph/commentary/20070719com1.html

jgacis

July 19th, 2007, 06:32 AM

^^ i agree w/ you .insulting those marines is uncalled for ...well i watched and read US Marine being slauthered in Irag & Afghanistan too :ohno:

I am insulting the AFP leadership who are commanding those marines. And if they don't change the way they administer their protocols there, they shouldn't be called marines, IMO.

That's not how the standards of a marine should be accepted. Is that the standards you want @dinabaw?

1. An AFP spokesperson telling the media on the latest whereabouts of Bossi?

2. No back-up during the ambush?

3. Following a narrow path in dense unsurveyed vegetation on both sides? A military unit should know better....

4. An eager commander sending his "marines" out in an area not yet surveyed? What leadership is this? Why act out impulsively on a "hot tip" to save the priest when you end up killing your own men like that without proper preparation and further intel (and they even told the media about it too!! WTF???!!!!) :mad2:

5. A truck stuck in the mud? Is this proper planning? I can understand IEDs, but a truck stuck in the mud is a totally different level of unpreparedness.

6. Allowing MILF to get away with the actual killings by focusing only on the beheadings?

FORGET about the U.S. for the moment. Let's only think about our Philippines. Is this the kind of standards you want? Is it?!!! :mad:

Pero then again, standards in the Philippines is another story... :ohno:

I know you want to support our AFP troops, and I respect everyone for doing that. But the wrong kind of support will lead us nowhere......

TheAvenger

July 19th, 2007, 07:16 AM

I am insulting the AFP leadership who are commanding those marines. And if they don't change the way they administer their protocols there, they shouldn't be called marines, IMO.

That's not how the standards of a marine should be accepted. Is that the standards you want @dinabaw?

1. An AFP spokesperson telling the media on the latest whereabouts of Bossi?

2. No back-up during the ambush?

3. Following a narrow path in dense unsurveyed vegetation on both sides? A military unit should know better....

4. An eager commander sending his "marines" out in an area not yet surveyed? What leadership is this? Why act out impulsively on a "hot tip" to save the priest when you end up killing your own men like that without proper preparation and further intel (and they even told the media about it too!! WTF???!!!!) :mad2:

5. A truck stuck in the mud? Is this proper planning? I can understand IEDs, but a truck stuck in the mud is a totally different level of unpreparedness.

6. Allowing MILF to get away with the actual killings by focusing only on the beheadings?

FORGET about the U.S. for the moment. Let's only think about our Philippines. Is this the kind of standards you want? Is it?!!! :mad:

Pero then again, standards in the Philippines is another story... :ohno:

I know you want to support our AFP troops, and I respect everyone for doing that. But the wrong kind of support will lead us nowhere......

I will join the fray about your uncalled remarks re " insulting our Marines "
It is like insulting the orphans and widows of those dead Marines.

It is not their sins or their faults if their general or whoever sold arms to their enemies. They were sacrificing their life for the country eventhough there were many corrupts in their high command and in the civilian government.

PLease take note that some Marines and other military officers have sacrificed their careers and launch coups because of the corruptions in the
military establishment. they were Major Ariel Querubin of the Marines, Lt. Snr Grade Trillanes of the Navy ( now a senator), former FOIC Gen Wong (from the Marines, Brig Danny Lim of the Phil Army Scout Ranger batallion and countless others who were either discharged in the service or in the military stockades like the Magdalo soldiers.

Since many of our military men have risked their life and career in denouncing
the corruption in our military and our government, then you cannot say that the whole military establishment is corrupt. So you don/t have the moral rights to insult the Marines nor the other soldiers.

RE EDIT by removing some portions which may results to misunderstanding..

jgacis

July 19th, 2007, 07:36 AM

I will join the fray about your uncalled remarks re " insulting our Marines "
It is like insulting the orphans and widows of those dead Marines.

It is not their sins or their faults if their general or whoever sold arms to their enemies. They were sacrificing their life for the country eventhough there were many corrupts in their high command and in the civilian government.

PLease take note that some Marines and other military officers have sacrificed their careers and launch coups because of the corruptions in the
military establishment. they were Major Ariel Querubin of the Marines, Lt. Snr Grade Trillanes of the Navy ( now a senator), former FOIC Gen Wong (from the Marines, Brig Danny Lim of the Phil Army Scout Ranger batallion and countless others who were either discharged in the service or in the military stockades like the Magdalo soldiers.

Since many of our military men have risked their life and career in denouncing
the corruption in our military and our government, then you cannot say that the whole military establishment is corrupt. So you don/t have the moral rights to insult the Marines nor the other soldiers.

You may call or denounce our country as corrupt if you are a full blooded Filipino citizens, but foreigners for decency sakes should not condemn nor denounce our government if they were here living in the country.

However your case is different, a full-blooded Filipino with a foreign citizenship, a FilAm ... I reckoned that you should not insult our Marines for decency sakes, it will be controversial for you owing to your divided loyalties. You have ties to both your motherland and your adopted country which is America.

You can have your loyalties to America ...whatever .... but please sent home to your motherland the dollars :lol:

and of course please don't insult our Marines .... eventhough their superior officers and the civil government is corrupt.

Who can insult those families of the marines more than an AFP administration that can't enforce a deterrent policy against their killers!!! :ohno: Don't just blame the MILF, blame the AFP leadership for not doing their jobs!!!

Go ahead, label me as insulting those marines. I am insulting the AFP clown leadership there that you support :mad2:

Sure I'll send my U.S. dollars to the motherland Philippines. :) Why not? I am not ashamed of that since I am helping our people there. But only an ignorant fool would continue to tolerate the abuses there which go on year after year. If you spoke up more against the corruption there against the AFP, we would have a better force. I just want the Philippines to get back on it's feet again...that's all. Is that too much to ask?

TheAvenger

July 19th, 2007, 07:42 AM

Who can insult those families of the marines more than an AFP administration that can't enforce a deterrent policy against their killers!!! :ohno: Don't just blame the MILF, blame the AFP leadership for not doing their jobs!!!

Go ahead, label me as insulting those marines. I am insulting the AFP clown leadership there that you support :mad2:

Sure I'll send my U.S. dollars to the motherland Philippines. :) Why not? I am not ashamed of that since I am helping our people there. But only an ignorant fool would continue to tolerate the abuses there which go on year after year. If you spoke up more against the corruption there against the AFP, we would have a better force. I just want the Philippines to get back on it's feet again...that's all. Is that too much to ask?

I rather left to the Magdalo soldiers and other nationalistic and uncorrupted soldiers of the AFP to denounce and spoke more on the corruption in the AFP since they knew better of their military chain of command.

The Human Security Act or the Anti Terror law forbids me to say more. This is the Philippines ... not America. :)

by the way what happens to the FilAm ex Gen. Taguba of the US Army, the one who exposed the inhuman treatment of Iraqi prisoner of War in Abu Gharaib prison camp ?

jgacis

July 19th, 2007, 08:15 AM

I rather left to the Magdalo soldiers and other nationalistic and uncorrupted soldiers of the AFP to denounce and spoke more on the corruption in the AFP since they know more of their military leadership.

The Human Security Act or the Anti Terror law forbids me to say more. This is the Philippine ... not America. :)

There you go again... thinking that only certain groups of people have a right to say this or that (like most filipinos). That's a cop-out when you should just rebuttal the arguments accordingly.

While that deserves some merit, it is not the rule. Especially when the matter in discussion involves clowns who don't follow the rules (or break the rules) thmeselves.

I suppose since the MILF or ASG have more knowledge and experience about the fight there in Basilan, our own President GMA doesn't have any right to say anything about the matter of those involved? Does she and I fall in the same category then since she isn't showing any military leadership?

Are you saying even a filipino who doesn't live in Pinas pero working hard for his family doesn't have the right to voice their opinion on what is going on in AFP leadership or in Basilan? Do you call this a democracy? Are you a communist or NPA? :ohno: Seriously, don't tell me garbage like that when we are suppose to live in a democratic society where we can voice our concerns in matters regarding the safety of our nation... :ohno: If that's how you think, people like you are destroying this country by letting clowns get away with corruption and beheadings....

Filipinos need to voice their opinions collectively and force the AFP to take true initiative in this insurgency matter. GMA should also dissolve the A.R.M.M and provide continuing and sustaining developments in all of Mindanao. A large national military base should be set up there as a temporary deterring platform, then convert it to an industrial economic zone in the latter future. This is just an idea. But at least it's an idea. Better than just fiddling our thumbs and guessing who the next person/group is to lay blame on....

Don't mean to sound too mayabang, I just have strong feelings against your own viewpoints. But I do try to understand your views, although I find it hardly accepting.... :)

jgacis

July 19th, 2007, 08:21 AM

by the way what happens to the FilAm ex Gen. Taguba of the US Army, the one who exposed the inhuman treatment of Iraqi prisoner of War in Abu Gharaib prison camp ?

I didn't even know he was fil-am. Here in America, we judge you by your merits. Of course there is still racism, but here in the U.S. military we do not tolerate the level of racism from what you would probably believe from your resources.

Why, may I ask you inquire? Another anti-filipino conspiracy theory up your sleeves? :nuts:

TheAvenger

July 19th, 2007, 09:29 AM

I didn't even know he was fil-am. Here in America, we judge you by your merits. Of course there is still racism, but here in the U.S. military we do not tolerate the level of racism from what you would probably believe from your resources.

Why, may I ask you inquire? Another anti-filipino conspiracy theory up your sleeves? :nuts:

nothing at the moment. BTW i am just playing my role of devil's advocate :)

also I am quite busy postings abt 100 photos of EDSA in the SSC Thread EDSA : http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=143204&page=15

and also to my own blog : http://jibrael.blogspot.com

TheAvenger

July 19th, 2007, 10:33 AM

There you go again... thinking that only certain groups of people have a right to say this or that (like most filipinos). That's a cop-out when you should just rebuttal the arguments accordingly.

While that deserves some merit, it is not the rule. Especially when the matter in discussion involves clowns who don't follow the rules (or break the rules) thmeselves.

I suppose since the MILF or ASG have more knowledge and experience about the fight there in Basilan, our own President GMA doesn't have any right to say anything about the matter of those involved? Does she and I fall in the same category then since she isn't showing any military leadership?

Are you saying even a filipino who doesn't live in Pinas pero working hard for his family doesn't have the right to voice their opinion on what is going on in AFP leadership or in Basilan? Do you call this a democracy? Are you a communist or NPA? :ohno: Seriously, don't tell me garbage like that when we are suppose to live in a democratic society where we can voice our concerns in matters regarding the safety of our nation... :ohno: If that's how you think, people like you are destroying this country by letting clowns get away with corruption and beheadings....

Filipinos need to voice their opinions collectively and force the AFP to take true initiative in this insurgency matter. GMA should also dissolve the A.R.M.M and provide continuing and sustaining developments in all of Mindanao. A large national military base should be set up there as a temporary deterring platform, then convert it to an industrial economic zone in the latter future. This is just an idea. But at least it's an idea. Better than just fiddling our thumbs and guessing who the next person/group is to lay blame on....

Don't mean to sound too mayabang, I just have strong feelings against your own viewpoints. But I do try to understand your views, although I find it hardly accepting.... :)

Okey, I have RE EDIT my previous post by removing the portions which may lead to others misunderstand my points which I wrote in good faith.
.

TheAvenger

July 19th, 2007, 12:14 PM

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9294/QTV-2-Marine-officers-relieved-over-Basilan-clash

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9288/MILF-ASG-members-behind-beheadings-to-be-charged

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9301/Aragoncillo-gets-10-year-prison-sentence

dinabaw

July 19th, 2007, 04:14 PM

There you go again... thinking that only certain groups of people have a right to say this or that (like most filipinos). That's a cop-out when you should just rebuttal the arguments accordingly.

While that deserves some merit, it is not the rule. Especially when the matter in discussion involves clowns who don't follow the rules (or break the rules) thmeselves.

I suppose since the MILF or ASG have more knowledge and experience about the fight there in Basilan, our own President GMA doesn't have any right to say anything about the matter of those involved? Does she and I fall in the same category then since she isn't showing any military leadership?

Are you saying even a filipino who doesn't live in Pinas pero working hard for his family doesn't have the right to voice their opinion on what is going on in AFP leadership or in Basilan? Do you call this a democracy? Are you a communist or NPA? :ohno: Seriously, don't tell me garbage like that when we are suppose to live in a democratic society where we can voice our concerns in matters regarding the safety of our nation... :ohno: If that's how you think, people like you are destroying this country by letting clowns get away with corruption and beheadings....

Filipinos need to voice their opinions collectively and force the AFP to take true initiative in this insurgency matter. GMA should also dissolve the A.R.M.M and provide continuing and sustaining developments in all of Mindanao. A large national military base should be set up there as a temporary deterring platform, then convert it to an industrial economic zone in the latter future. This is just an idea. But at least it's an idea. Better than just fiddling our thumbs and guessing who the next person/group is to lay blame on....

Don't mean to sound too mayabang, I just have strong feelings against your own viewpoints. But I do try to understand your views, although I find it hardly accepting.... :)

so you think dissolving ARMM will solve the problem? how can it be solve? ARMM or w/ out ARMM . the problem in Mindanao is deeply rooted, we need to understand the history & culture , it's complecxity before we "mouth" what to do w/ mindanao .

btw people, we stop arguing the beheading of the marines, they need our prayers & sympathy , grieve w/ the family who are suffering. and back to the original thread .

bitoy

July 19th, 2007, 07:07 PM

by the way what happens to the FilAm ex Gen. Taguba of the US Army, the one who exposed the inhuman treatment of Iraqi prisoner of War in Abu Gharaib prison camp ?

Gen. Antonio Taguba(ret) is one of America’s most respected senior officers, was put in charge of the Abu Ghraib investigation. He led the investigation reports of wrongdoing among American military jailers in Iraq.
Army Lt. Gen. Eduardo Soriano and Maj. General was John R. D'Araujo Jr are some of the Pinoy US military senior officers. I think the military attache in the US embassy in Manila is a Pinoy also.

jgacis

July 19th, 2007, 10:37 PM

so you think dissolving ARMM will solve the problem? how can it be solve? ARMM or w/ out ARMM . the problem in Mindanao is deeply rooted, we need to understand the history & culture , it's complecxity before we "mouth" what to do w/ mindanao .

btw people, we stopped arguing the beheading of the marines, they need our prayers & sympathy , grieve w/ the family who are suffering. and back to the original thread .

Okay, I will pray for those fallen marines and for the families who have to suffer for the years to come (courtesy of MILF/ASG)...

To answer your other question....

Yes, the ARMM NEEDS to be DISSOLVED. POOF!!!!

Why? Kasi the A.R.M.M. has been a USELESS political organization for our nation. While they do represent and implement policies in favor of their constituents, not all governance is to their advantage compared to the rest of the nation.

Here are a few things I want to list about them....

1. "the ARMM receives approximately 98% of its operating revenue from the National Government of the Philippines, and has yet to create significant, viable sources of additional revenue." (wikipedia)

2. Lack of legal jurisdiction and enforcement against insurgents embedded in the A.R.M.M. regions. (The latest beheadings/kidnapping are a PERFECT example).

3. Platform for SEPARATISTS movements AGAINST national development and policies. Take for example the public educational school system. It has become hostage to Islamic Fundamentalism and the teachings rooted in Sharia.

4. A.R.M.M. policies ARE NOT TOLERANT of christian-based NATIONAL POLICIES...

Here is a pic I took in Zamboanga @dinabaw....

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2862/dscn3566zk6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Is this the kind of school entrances (or in fact, ANY entrance) you want spread out throughout our beloved nation???!!! :ohno:

If muslims want to do this in Mindanao, they have every right to do so. But they must also learn to live with national goals and policies. The A.R.M.M. does not share in our national vision. Please understand this!!! Why do you think they are called "AUTONOMOUS"!!!!??? :ohno:

I live here in the United States, and many muslims here have learned to live with multiculturalism and are thus peaceful. We don't have "autonomous" regions here. We might have a chinatown, or a koreatown, or little saigon or tokyo but any group who establishes political autonomy and implements their own policies is a threat against national solidarity. The A.R.M.M. doesn't live on the pretext of a multicultural society, otherwise they wouldn't SEPARATE themselves from the rest of us. Just take a look at some of their policies.

While every culture/tribe does need to preserve their identity, it doesn't come FREE. Nothing in this world is FREE. It comes with the price of giving up some of that loyalty to a society that surrounds you with development and security. How can the ARMM develop and protect Mindanao with all the latest crap you see in the news.

Sure we can argue that the latest bad news are the RESULT of poverty and lack of development. But to start the ball rolling and continue our developments against poverty, the SECURITY and SAFETY needs to begin NOW, not later!!! This means getting rid of the MILF/MNLF/ASG and the A.R.M.M. platform.....

You know dinabaw, you said in your other posts that the muslim "moros" were here way long time ago before the Spaniards. You are right. And if it weren't for the Spaniards, they would have expanded throughout the rest of this country and this nation might have become Islamic like Indonesia. But did this happen? No..... The Spaniards came, then the Americans....

So let me ask you dinabaw. What do you want for this nation?

A country to develop and prosper from what our westerner colonizers have given us, or revert back to the past and let islamic expansionism take its initial roots in Mindanao (by supporting the A.R.M.M and having peacetalks with the MILF after they just killed our troops, hence our prayers you are asking for)?

I want this nation to grow and prosper for all filipinos, all religions. But SAFETY/SECURITY needs to SUSTAINED in the poverish areas FIRST. Not after waiting for developments, but NOW to insure future development. And if a few group of clowns want to fight our national progress and spill our own filipino blood, they need to be exterminated.....

jgacis

July 19th, 2007, 10:40 PM

nothing at the moment. BTW i am just playing my role of devil's advocate :)

Ok, I see your point..Hehe... :cheers:

TheAvenger

July 19th, 2007, 11:22 PM

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/63jp16x.jpg

PGMA together with the US Ambassador on the blessing of Huey helicopters given to our AFP.

TheAvenger

July 19th, 2007, 11:31 PM

The Autonomous Region for Muslim Mindanao was created to fullfill the agreement our country signed in Tripoli Libya during Marcos era.

Without the Tripoli Agreement the War in Mindanao will became another battlefield between the clash of civilizations ... clash between Western civilization and Islamic civilization.

During the 1970s total war against Moro rebels in the south, Marcos have no choice, the Arabs were threatening us with oil embargo, some Arab countries were pouring military aid to the rebels via Sabah. Indonesian hardline muslims
were publicly telling their government to interfere and sent troops or jihadist in Mindanao. While Malaysian govt were secretly helping the Arabs in channelling weapons and ammo through the former Sabah's State Minister Tun Mustapha, originally a Filipino from Cagayan de Sulu. ( he grow up in a Catholic mission church either in Sulu or Mindanao according to the story)

So ARMM to me is our breathing space for our government or a sort of transition mechanism, for a Philippines without bigotry in Religion and ethnic origin, and ideology.

Total War was done already in MIndanao during the 1970s Marcos era, if not for the US supplying ammunitions our troop's ammunition will not last for a month. ( I know it, i got a neighbor in the province who is a Pilot in PAF and he told me that time, that almost everyday they were ferrying bullets - ammo from the US mainland to Philippines.

Our troops assigned in Mindanao and Sulu that time were all mad and angry with Marcos, they said that everytime they are winning Marcos will order them to stop firing for ceasefire. Apparently Marcos were receiving threats from the Arabs to ceasefire otherwise ....... " you will suffer the consequences ".

So Marcos also afraid of our troops in MIndanao returning to Manila to oust him, chose to send Imelda to Libya to charm Muammar Gadaffi. ARMM was the result of the Tripoli Agreement, it was through Imelda's charming Gadaffi of Libya.

Our government should use instead the ARMM for winning the hearts and minds of our brother Filipino Muslims in order to put an end to this never ending War in the south, started by the Spaniard colonial ruler and continued by the Americans. Our former colonial master never won their war of pacification which last for more than 300 years.

gen1

July 20th, 2007, 02:02 AM

When I say they shouldn't be called marines, I say that in the general sense of the way those marines keep being ambushed based on their training and what was given to them prior to those missions.

U.S. forces are fighting insurgents in the hundreds, if not thousands. Way much more than the MILF, MNLF, and ASG combined. Those terrorists are also better trained and have unlimited supplies from their Iranian proxies and huge terror network. Your numerical references are a joke when you look at the broader picture, which many are too narrow-minded to see.

Would you call someone like that a marine? :ohno:

The MILF/MNLF/ASG strenght is estimated at 12,000 combatants, equivalent to a non-mechanized infantry division strength. This is larger than the total number of our marines which stands at approx 8,000 marines in all.

How good are the MILF Fighters ? In the Ginanta, Basilan encounter where all those marines were killed/beheaded, the MILF neutralized the Armoured Personnel Carriers by firing into the viewing slits of the tanks and injuring the tank crew inside. It takes a pretty good marksman to hit those small 1-2" high slits (that's the size of a target bullseye). It also takes BALLS to get within 50m-75m of those tanks to be able to do such effective sniping without fancy-schmanzy sniper rifles.

The MILF took on these APC reinforced marines even though they did not have RPG's and other anti-tank armaments. I'd say these are very well trained and dedicated combatants. Beheadings aside, and if it were against foreign aggressors, i wouldn't mind having these warriors on our side.

No offense, pero US Air Force ka kasi, kaya hindi mo na-appreciate masyado ang pakikidigma sa infantry level. And you know what the US Army grunts like to say - in the Air Force Only the Officers Fight. (mga officers na piloto lang daw kasi ang bumabanat sa kalaban). ha,ha,ha. Biro Lang. Peace Bro :)

dinabaw

July 20th, 2007, 02:53 AM

Okay, I will pray for those fallen marines and for the families who have to suffer for the years to come (courtesy of MILF/ASG)...

To answer your other question....

Yes, the ARMM NEEDS to be DISSOLVED. POOF!!!!

Why? Kasi the A.R.M.M. has been a USELESS political organization for our nation. While they do represent and implement policies in favor of their constituents, not all governance is to their advantage compared to the rest of the nation.

Here are a few things I want to list about them....

1. "the ARMM receives approximately 98% of its operating revenue from the National Government of the Philippines, and has yet to create significant, viable sources of additional revenue." (wikipedia)

2. Lack of legal jurisdiction and enforcement against insurgents embedded in the A.R.M.M. regions. (The latest beheadings/kidnapping are a PERFECT example).

3. Platform for SEPARATISTS movements AGAINST national development and policies. Take for example the public educational school system. It has become hostage to Islamic Fundamentalism and the teachings rooted in Sharia.

4. A.R.M.M. policies ARE NOT TOLERANT of christian-based NATIONAL POLICIES...

Here is a pic I took in Zamboanga @dinabaw....

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2862/dscn3566zk6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Is this the kind of school entrances (or in fact, ANY entrance) you want spread out throughout our beloved nation???!!! :ohno:

If muslims want to do this in Mindanao, they have every right to do so. But they must also learn to live with national goals and policies. The A.R.M.M. does not share in our national vision. Please understand this!!! Why do you think they are called "AUTONOMOUS"!!!!??? :ohno:

I live here in the United States, and many muslims here have learned to live with multiculturalism and are thus peaceful. We don't have "autonomous" regions here. We might have a chinatown, or a koreatown, or little saigon or tokyo but any group who establishes political autonomy and implements their own policies is a threat against national solidarity. The A.R.M.M. doesn't live on the pretext of a multicultural society, otherwise they wouldn't SEPARATE themselves from the rest of us. Just take a look at some of their policies.

While every culture/tribe does need to preserve their identity, it doesn't come FREE. Nothing in this world is FREE. It comes with the price of giving up some of that loyalty to a society that surrounds you with development and security. How can the ARMM develop and protect Mindanao with all the latest crap you see in the news.

Sure we can argue that the latest bad news are the RESULT of poverty and lack of development. But to start the ball rolling and continue our developments against poverty, the SECURITY and SAFETY needs to begin NOW, not later!!! This means getting rid of the MILF/MNLF/ASG and the A.R.M.M. platform.....

You know dinabaw, you said in your other posts that the muslim "moros" were here way long time ago before the Spaniards. You are right. And if it weren't for the Spaniards, they would have expanded throughout the rest of this country and this nation might have become Islamic like Indonesia. But did this happen? No..... The Spaniards came, then the Americans....

So let me ask you dinabaw. What do you want for this nation?

A country to develop and prosper from what our westerner colonizers have given us, or revert back to the past and let islamic expansionism take its initial roots in Mindanao (by supporting the A.R.M.M and having peacetalks with the MILF after they just killed our troops, hence our prayers you are asking for)?

I want this nation to grow and prosper for all filipinos, all religions. But SAFETY/SECURITY needs to SUSTAINED in the poverish areas FIRST. Not after waiting for developments, but NOW to insure future development. And if a few group of clowns want to fight our national progress and spill our own filipino blood, they need to be exterminated.....

Dissolve the ARMM,,, then what? how can you apiece our muslim brothers? seccesion? create another region ?another expensive referendum? I think you can't comprehend the whole political picture in Mindanao , you point your fingers to mindanao if there is corruption ... Mr. Igacis open your eyes corruption is all over the Philippines , cheating in election is not only done in Mindanao its all over the Philippines!

So what's wrong w/ that SIGN ? I can't find any immoral or degrading in that. can't we respect their culture ? if it's unwesternize its a "bad taste in your mouth" ? so then it's ok to you to send our women in Japan or Brunei bec it's whta the "norm" of a western world?

I am sad for you , about your westernized world thinking , comparing US to the Phils. , no autonomous region , cmmon the plight of american indians & other minorities in US is not an "ideal" democracy. As my cousin said (who retired from the US navy) the most whites still think "they are white as the coupon bond paper " :lol:

We cannot judge our history ... maybe if not for western countires who occupied us , maybe i am a devoted muslim or maybe your an imam somewhere in Luzon and not living in the land of milk & money , imean honey , the think is we live TODAY , make the best w/ our country , equal rights to every culture and respect 1 another.

jgacis

July 20th, 2007, 03:13 AM

\o offense, pero US Air Force ka kasi, kaya hindi mo na-appreciate masyado ang pakikidigma sa infantry level. And you know what the US Army grunts like to say - in the Air Force Only the Officers Fight. (mga officers na piloto lang daw kasi ang bumabanat sa kalaban). ha,ha,ha. Biro Lang. Peace Bro :)

It's ok gen1. I like listening to your rebuttals (as well as @TheAvenger) kasi I am learning and analyzing your viewpoints as well... :)

If those "moro" islamic groups number over 12,000 combatants and AFP marines number approximately 8,000 then that is only one perceived disadvantage of our Philippine defense forces. How many of those 12,000 may I ask are ACTIVELY ENGAGING AFP troops? It seems from my observation, they mostly strike during targets of opportunity. You see alot more in Iraq because American troops place themselves in higher situations of "opportunity" attacks.

Remember, our AFP is to represent our national defense and protect our constitution. We are supposed to be a professional and trained military regimen. Not rogue "bandits" (as dinabaw would say) like the MILF or ASG.

I don't glamorize MILF fighters like you do (mentioning perfect shots into the tank driver's viewing slits) because our ARMED FORCES OF THE PHILIPPINES can ALSO make those calculated shots. But where is the leadership and training? Sure we caught important bad guys last year (JI), but is that more an exception than a focused goal with the rest of the murderers out there?

AFP troops can also have BALLS. Yet, you would rather mention MILF fighters having balls. Whose side are you on, anyway? :mad2:

Anybody can have BALLS or GUTS. Those fallen marines had them. But unfortunately, a better leadership would have had them at least better prepared when you examine the facts surrounding this latest ambush. Should we keep assuming they died for a cause (and thus leave it at that) instead of learning from their deaths? If we did this more often in the past (changing our ways from past mistakes), I am sure we would be killing alot more of those extremists who spill our filipino blood...

jgacis

July 20th, 2007, 03:54 AM

Dissolve the ARMM,,, then what? how can you apiece our muslim brothers? seccesion? create another region ?another expensive referendum? I think you can't comprehend the whole political picture in Mindanao , you point your fingers to mindanao if there is corruption ... Mr. Igacis open your eyes corruption is all over the Philippines , cheating in election is not only done in Mindanao its all over the Philippines!

So what's wrong w/ that sign? I can't find any immoral in that. can't we respect their culture ? if it's unwesternize its a "bad taste in your mouth" ? so then it's ok to you to send our women in Japan or Brunei bec it's whta the "norm" of a western world?

I am sad for you , about your westernized world thinking , comparing US to the Phils. , no autonomous region , cmmon the plight of american indians & other minorities in US is not an "ideal" democracy. As my cousin said (who retired from the US navy) the whites still think "they are white as the coupon bond paper " :lol:

We cannot judge our history ... maybe if not for western countires who occupied us , maybe i am a devoted muslim or maybe your an imam somewhere in Luzon and not living in the land of milk & money , imean honey , the think is we live TODAY , make the best w/ our country , equal rights to every culture and respect 1 another.

I am also SAD FOR YOU, for thinking that there is no other option out there but the misery filipino leadership in the Philippines keep placing filipinos into.

The U.S. is not an "ideal" democracy, but it is a "working" democracy that has the strength of balancing both ends of the political spectrum. While we have our good rich, we also have our Enron's. And while we have our poor, we have our school drop-outs like Bill Gates. We have somebodies turn into nobodies, and our nobodies turn into somebodies. If you can't picture that any more ideal, that's because you can't imagine it. And that's what I infer from your level of thinking. Lack of imagination.

Just because corruption and poverty is all over the Philippines, every filipino in every region seems to make that as their reason for their "BAHALA NA" attitude. Open my eyes? I think my eyes have seen alot. Now I'm trying to open my mind, and not be close-minded by like some filipinos who don't have the vision for change, change within themselves..... Instead, they wait for everyone else to change before they make the effort to change themselves. I'm not waiting for nobody... :mad2:

You thinking for "the best of our country" and "equal rights to every culture" can only be defined by the IMAGINATION of the filipino people. So I really don't know how much you envision (imagine) for the Philippines, but I personally have high visions for it.

It needs to start by having real leadership in the AFP and getting rid of the ARMM. The Abu-Sayef (and now, since the latest killings, the MILF) is the IDEOLOGICAL VANGUARD for the governing body of the ARMM. The AFP lacks vision in defining the long-term threat of this matter against our nation. This is due to corruption, lack of leadership, and training.

To fix this, it either starts at the top (leadership) and work it's way down, or starts from the bottom and work it's way up. It can't start in the middle, out of nowhere, because of the hierarchy of the AFP. Yet, that's what filipinos always look for - answers from the middle, out of nowhere.... :ohno:

Why are you labeling me as a "westerner", because I live in U.S?

Even though my tagalog isn't that good, I am still brown, eat filipino food, visit/live in the Philippines every year (parents ko), send money to the motherland (@TheAvenger ;)), and love the beauty and nature of Pinas. It seems like to me that you guys won't consider me filipino unless I "THINK" like a filipino, according to your standards. WTF?! :mad2:

Is that how we must define a filipino exclusively? A person who "THINKS" like filipino? What the hell is that??? :ohno:

I have seen filipinos from all parts of this world and we are as diverse as the blood in our genes.

I am criticizing AFP leadership and the killings from our EXTREME filipino muslims. Filipinos should have the right to go to any part of the Philippines and travel/explore if they want to without fear. Instead, if they go somewhere near danger, all the relatives start warning them. Even when I went to General Santos last year and Zamboanga/Basilan earlier this year, there was always some filipino telling me "it's dangerous there" or "why did you go there". When your own people live in fear, it's hard to be proud of your country..... :ohno:

jgacis

July 20th, 2007, 04:29 AM

So ARMM to me is our breathing space for our government or a sort of transition mechanism, for a Philippines without bigotry in Religion and ethnic origin, and ideology.

That breathing space was in a past era. It is now a CHOKING HOLD against our national progress, development, and SAFETY down in Mindanao. Don't believe me? Ask the souls of those fallen marines.

Our troops assigned in Mindanao and Sulu that time were all mad and angry with Marcos, they said that everytime they are winning Marcos will order them to stop firing for ceasefire. Apparently Marcos were receiving threats from the Arabs to ceasefire otherwise ....... " you will suffer the consequences ".

Interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing. But I think Marcos was a crony leader and now we are still suffering from his corrupted leadership.

So Marcos also afraid of our troops in MIndanao returning to Manila to oust him, chose to send Imelda to Libya to charm Muammar Gadaffi. ARMM was the result of the Tripoli Agreement, it was through Imelda's charming Gadaffi of Libya.

Yes, Imelda's trip to Libya was discussed in the film IMELDA: Power, Myth, Illusion

Our government should use instead the ARMM for winning the hearts and minds of our brother Filipino Muslims in order to put an end to this never ending War in the south, started by the Spaniard colonial ruler and continued by the Americans.

Totally disagree. The Philippines should be ONE nation. You must also seek to understand the mission and goals of the ARMM...

From their website:
MANDATE:
The Regional Government exercise power & function necessary for the proper governance & development of all constituents units within the Autonomous Region consistent with the constitutional policy on Regional & Local Autonomy & Decentralization.

VISION:
In the name of Allah Most gracious, Most Merciful.
We the Bangsamoro people, under the guidance of almighty, in our continuing quest....... more...

MISSION:
To actually pursue the establishment of the genuine & full Autonomy in accordance with the MNLF-OIC-GRP 1996 Peace Agreement..... more...

Do you understand the full impact and ramifications of those statements? Especially the ones in BOLD?

It is NOT a "let's get along and have peace with one another"... :ohno:

There are CLEAR inferences of separatist policies not conducive to our christian-based national policies. A PERFECT example is GMA's prohibition of capital punishment (the death penalty). Does the MILF or ARMM share in these values? Even if the ARMM doesn't promote violence, their proxies and ideological vanguards (Abu-Sayef, MILF, etc.) will do the dirty work for them. Don't believe me? Ask Father Bossi and the souls of fallen victims in the past, filipino or westerner.

What legal actions has the ARMM done about the MILF attacks who are WITHIN their legal jurisdiction? What allows the MILF to be the representative spokesperson on who was justified in the attacks in the ARMM region???!!! :mad:

Our former colonial master never won their war of pacification which last for more than 300 years

That's because they want COMPLETE SOVEREIGNTY and total INDEPENDENCE from our christian-based national government. That was their message to Spain, America, and now our Philippine government - doesn't matter whether its 300 years or 3000 years. Use your head.....there is no pacification with islamic fundamentalists, not with a democratic government, at least... How long must it take you to realize this?

jgacis

July 20th, 2007, 04:50 AM

http://www.filipiniana.net/readpub_content.jsp?filename=B00000000029&page=12&epage=13&fpage=0&keyword=sherlock9152584&searchKey=sherlock9152584

Jundam, Mashur Bin-Ghalib. “Sharee’ah Law on Punishments.” Chap. 7 in Tunggal Hulah-Duwa Sarah: Adat and Sharee ' ah Laws in the Life of the Tausug. Quezon City: Vibal Publishing House, Inc., 2007. Pp. 178-203.

Criminal offenses in the Islamic context are those which undermine the value of persons, property, religion and the state as a whole. The penal laws of Islam are called Hudud in the Hadith and Fiqh. This word is the plural of Hadd, which means prevention, hindrance, restraint, prohibition and hence, a restrictive ordinance or statute of God, respecting things lawful and unlawful (Siddiqi: 1979 A.C.: 50). God said in the Holy Qur’an:

“ Seest thou if he denies (truth) and turns away? Knoweth he not that Allah doth see? Let him beware! We will drag him by the foreclock, — .... We will call on the angels of punishment (to deal with him).” (Surah XLVII: Ayats 13-18)

Islamic Concept of Punishment

As deliberated by Siddiqi (1979 A.C.:8), the punishment prescribed by law cannot be reduced or increased even under sentiments of mercy. This is in conjunction with the mandate of the Holy Qur’an, being the main source of Sharee’ah or Islamic law. Part of Ayat 2 in Surah An-Nur ( Light ) states:

“… Let not compassion move you, in their case… (guilty of fornication).”

From the above verse of the Holy Qur’an, the following conclusions may be drawn:

If the guilt is proven, the culprit must be punished at all cost.

Is this conducive to our national policies? Is this what all filipinos must face from our southern neighbors?

Does this embody the ideals of what we seek from our fellow FUNDAMENTALIST muslim brothers? :ohno:

Does the Philippine AFP really understand who they are dealing with?

beads_strawberries

July 20th, 2007, 05:48 AM

Fr. Bossi was released as per the news this morning. He was found at Lanao Del Sur, far from Tipo-Tipo, Basilan were initial reports stated that he was there.

As per the news, the kidnappers are from the MILF group. Now, the government should really put an end to those negotiations. The acts just show that they are not really sincere with all those peace negotiations.

gen1

July 20th, 2007, 05:48 AM

I don't glamorize MILF fighters like you do (mentioning perfect shots into the tank driver's viewing slits) because our ARMED FORCES OF THE PHILIPPINES can ALSO make those calculated shots. But where is the leadership and training? Sure we caught important bad guys last year (JI), but is that more an exception than a focused goal with the rest of the murderers out there?

AFP troops can also have BALLS. Yet, you would rather mention MILF fighters having balls. Whose side are you on, anyway? :mad2:

I just have respect for the quality of the MILF fighters. In their fighting skill level, they're worthy adversaries. I'm sure you know how difficult it is to train superb snipers. And combatants of lesser grumption would just flee if a tank bears down on them.

Compare that with the Iraqi terrorists whose forte is sending young men and women with angelic faces strapped with a bunch of explosives to do suicide attacks. they don't need much training to do that.

below are the pertinent excerpts from the inquirer article with the story of the soldiers in the APCs in Ginanta.

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/regions/view_article.php?article_id=76652
Female warrior’s instinct warned her about Basilan village

By Julie Alipala
Mindanao Bureau
Last updated 08:23pm (Mla time) 07/14/2007

ISABELA CITY, BASILAN -- Her intuition told her that something was amiss when the convoy entered the village at around 9 a.m. on July 10. And she was proven right.

Muyuela, 29, had logged just two weeks on the job but she was in charge of two armored vehicles -- a V150 Commando 312 and a 311 -- in a military convoy when Moro Islamic Liberation Front forces engaged her group of Marines in a daylong clash in Ginanta, a barangay (village) in Albarka (formerly Tipo-tipo), on Tuesday.

Muyuela said there were snipers everywhere.

“Throughout the engagement, I saw some of our soldiers falling down, hit by bullets,” she said.

Muyuela herself was wounded in the right ear, as were the four members of her crew -- two spotters, a gunner, and a driver.

Muyuela said she turned grim when she saw more soldiers getting hit by sniper fire.

She said all she could think of then was “to focus, to make sure that I can save lives, to ensure that we’ll have fewer casualties.”

“Suddenly one of my men, the gunner (Sergeant Christopher Villarin), fell on my lap,” Muyuela said.

“His eyes, nose, and shoulder were bleeding. I told him it was okay, that he can still manage. I inspected his chest and stomach and told him he was not going to die.” (Villarin remains in serious condition at a hospital.)

By then, everyone in V150 Commando 312, including Muyuela, had been hit.

Copyright 2007 Mindanao Bureau. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Skyblade

July 20th, 2007, 05:51 AM

Fr. Bossi was released as per the news this morning. He was found at Lanao Del Sur, far from Tipo-Tipo, Basilan were initial reports stated that he was there.

Definitely good news to hear that he was found alive.

(UPDATE) Bossi released in Lanao del Norte (http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/topofthehour.aspx?StoryId=85237)

After over a month and half of captivity, Italian priest Giancarlo Bossi was released by his abductors in Lanao del Norte province Thursday night.

Bossi was released by a renegade group of Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) members in Karamutan municipality around 9 p.m. The release was facilitated by former Tuburan mayor Hajarun Jamiri, reports said.

Authorities said three people were responsible for Bossi's kidnapping last June 10 in Payao, Zamboanga Sibugay. They were identified as Abdul Salam, Putot Jakaria and Ogis Jakaria -- all former MILF commanders. The three had been charged with kidnapping in a local court in Zamboanga province.

MILF spokesman Eid Kabalu, meanwhile, said the MILF leadership would have to determine if the suspects in Bossi's kidnapping are active or former members.

Kabalu clarified that there is no such thing as a "lost command" in the MILF. He said "either you are a member or you are outside of the MILF."

After his release, Bossi was immediately brought to a police headquarters in Camp Cawa-Cawa in Zamboanga City and subjected to medical examination.

Correspondent Ces Oreña-Drilon, meanwhile, said in her report that Bossi's release came in time for the birthday celebration of the Italian priest's mother who turned 87 years old Thursday.

Drilon said Bossi's first meal at Camp Cawa-Cawa was "noodles." ABS-CBN footage at around 7 a.m. showed Bossi eating bread and drinking coffee while being interviewed by Drilon at the camp.

There were reports that Bossi was abandoned by his kidnappers, even if no ransom was paid for his release. Authorities said the kidnappers could have been having a hard time feeding the Italian priest while being pursued by security forces in the provinces of Basilan and Lanao.

Drilon said that according to Bossi, his abductors usually fed him rice and dried fish locally known as "tuyo" or "daing."

Bossi said he was treated well by his captors but was always under heavy guard.

He said he once saw an opportunity to escape while the bandits were fast asleep. A guard, however, woke up and foiled his escape.

Bossi told Drilon that he and his abductors never left Lanao del Norte. He said was certain that the area, where he was kept for 40 days, was in Lanao del Norte because he is familiar with the province.

The military had received various reports of Bossi sightings in Lanao and Basilan provinces.

Last week, a battalion of the 1st Marine Brigade was ambushed in Tipo-Tipo, Basilan by MILF rebels while on their way back from an unsuccessful search for the Italian priest.

The military said 14 Marines were killed, 10 of them beheaded, in the ambush.

Bossi wants to go back to his parish

During the interview, Bossi mentioned that his abductors promised that they will abduct him again if ever he is released and decides to serve in Payao's parish again.

Bossi said instead of going back to Italy, he wants to go back to Payao town and be with his parishioners.

He said that he had already talked about his family about his intentions of going back to his parishioners. He said his family, who are scheduled to fly to Zamboanga City to visit him, have already agreed with his plan.

An Agence France Presse report, meanwhile, said Pope Benedict XVI welcomed the news of Bossi's release with "great joy."

Bossi, 57, is a member of the Pontifical Institute for Foreign Missions (PIME). He was seized after celebrating mass on June 10 in Zamboanga Sibugay.

The Vatican thanked all the people who worked for Bossi's release, including the Italian embassy in the Philippines that was in constant contact with the Philippine authorities.

zeejay

July 20th, 2007, 06:28 AM

It's good news that Fr. Bossi was already released his captors. As initially predicted, the groups responsible for his kidnapping is an MILF renegade group. So that might explain a bit why the Marines were ambushed by the MILF and Abu Sayaff Group. The MILF is really not an honest party to the peace talks. They should discipline their own people if they are sincere in ending hostilities with government forces. Neveretheless, even if Fr. Bossi was already released, the MILF should still pay for the killing and beheading of our soldiers.

TheAvenger

July 20th, 2007, 11:51 AM

Totally disagree. The Philippines should be ONE nation. You must also seek to understand the mission and goals of the ARMM...

From their website:

Do you understand the full impact and ramifications of those statements? Especially the ones in BOLD?

That's because they want COMPLETE SOVEREIGNTY and total INDEPENDENCE from our christian-based national government. That was their message to Spain, America, and now our Philippine government - doesn't matter whether its 300 years or 3000 years. Use your head.....there is no pacification with islamic fundamentalists, not with a democratic government, at least... How long must it take you to realize this?

you don't know what you are talking, ARMM is not the creation of the MILF, it is the creation of the Philippine government in order to comply with the Tripoli Agreement.

you are the one you must use your head "
i never said our government to do a pacification campaign, only colonial power do pacification campaign. the Philippines is not doing pacification campaign, we are enforcing our law in our country.

do you think that just because you have a foreign citizenship do you think you know already how to solve our country's problems. foreign citizenship doesn't make you better or superior than your blood brother Filipinos in the homeland, nor it was a license to insult other Filipinos whether soldiers or civilians, just to prove or emphasize your opinions.

:bash: :nuts:

TheAvenger

July 20th, 2007, 12:40 PM

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9350/QTV-DILG-says-ID-of-14-suspects-in-Bossi-kidnap-known

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9349/DOJ-chief-MILF-not-yet-off-the-hook-despite-Bossi-release

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9347/Bossi-meets-with-Arroyo-at-Palace

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9346/QTV-Palace-wants-to-know-which-group-kidnapped-Bossi

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9345/DILG-AFP-PNP-cooperation-freed-Bossi

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9344/DILG-No-ransom-paid-for-Fr-Bossi's-release

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9343/Kidnappers-free-Fr-Bossi-after-39-days

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9342/Father-Bossi-talks-about-his-ordeal

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9341/Fr-Giancarlo-Bossi-released

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9340/AFP-reaction-on-Bossi-release

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9339/Bossi-release-Live-interview-with-Fr-Robert-Brillantes

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9338/Bossi's-health-OK

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9332/Fr-Bossi-talks-to-Fr-Benedetti

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9331/Italian-gov't-happy-over-Bossi's-release

jgacis

July 20th, 2007, 08:36 PM

you don't know what you are talking, ARMM is not the creation of the MILF, it is the creation of the Philippine government in order to comply with the Tripoli Agreement.

you are the one you must use your head "
i never said our government to do a pacification campaign, only colonial power do pacification campaign. the Philippines is not doing pacification campaign, we are enforcing our law in our country.

do you think that just because you have a foreign citizenship do you think you know already how to solve our country's problems. foreign citizenship doesn't make you better or superior than your blood brother Filipinos in the homeland, nor it was a license to insult other Filipinos whether soldiers or civilians, just to prove or emphasize your opinions.

:bash: :nuts:

Did you just hear what I said? I said the ARMM is the PLATFORM (at least in the legal sense) for the ideology perpetrated by these insurgents!!! Did I say the MILF CREATED the ARMM??!!!!!!! Don't CREATE words that I didn't specifically mention.!!!

The ARMM is like the silent partner here, the legal platform (thanks to the Marcos era) whose ideological vanguards are the clowns you see today making headline news.

Did I say I am solving your country's problems?. I am pointing out the problems I see and stating my opinions. Just like everyone else. Heck, you seem like you can't solve your own country's problems yourself! Every year the same crap is in the news for ALL filipinos to see around the world.

You think only filipinos IN the Philippines have the only say in the matter? WRONG!!! :ohno: There are millions OUTSIDE the Philippines who are still filipinos and have every legal right to voice their opinions. Do you consider your country a democracy? Is it the filipino INSIDERS versus the filipino OUTSIDERS? Your comments are a big joke!!!! :ohno:

"only colonial power do pacification campaign?" ??????? What is this?!

And here some people are saying the insurgents are at least somewhat better than senseless Iraqi's blowing themselves up!!! :ohno: What kind of filipinos would make comparisons like that to MILF/ASG insurgents who beheaded our fallen marines!!!! HOW SICK!!!!! :ohno: :ohno: :ohno: :ohno:

gen1

July 21st, 2007, 01:20 AM

the mighty united states armed forces with its couple or so hundred thousand troops armed with the latest hi tech weapons has not been able to bring peace to iraq.

After several years of trying to bring order in Iraq, America and its allies cannot even bring peace in the capital Baghdad. Americans can't even venture out of its enclave the green zone without being armed to the teeth.

My point is an insurgency cannot be resolved by military means alone. Negotiation and its acceptance by the populance is the key.

All Out War to crush the MILF/MNLF insurgency ? Dream on. That's not going to happen. Erap tried that, and he failed. America tried that in Vietnam, and they failed. America is about to relearn that lesson in Iraq.

jgacis

July 21st, 2007, 02:23 AM

^^ I agree with you.

First of all, I am NOT saying the U.S. is ALMIGHTY. Is that clear?

And second, it is the islamic insurgents who believe in their ALMIGHTY!!! The Almighty that insurgents kill for. As a result, we have extremists filipinos killing our own filipinos. Do you understand my point?!

True, the insurgency cannot be solved by the military alone. Negotiations are the key. But do you study and analyze your history with how TERRORISTS deal with NEGOTIATIONS? How long must it take for filipinos to realize this. Even our Catholic priests are asking for peace, but who ended up being kidnapped? Tell me gen1!!! And how are you suppose to seek peace with terrorist groups who have a historical track record of killings/beheadings/murders?!!!

You can be like dinabaw, and assume that crimes like that abound everywhere in the Philippines. So will this be another "BAHALA NA" attitude??!!! Are you guys for real? :ohno:

I am not asking for ALL-OUT-WAR against the insurgents. I'm talking about more EFFECTIVE leadership within the AFP and a more ASSERTIVE stance AGAINST the unsurgents.

What I envision, the Philippine administration needs to strongly focus on infrastructure and developments in Mindanao, as well as the rest of the nation. But while this will take a while, the AFP needs to be strong and efficient to let this happen by ENFORCING the peace and security that will promote a bigger middle class. A middle class that will rise from the poor masses and enable an economy that will SUPPORT a local and regional business network.

So again, I agree with you about the military not being able to solve all the problemsl. But the AFP does play a KEY FACTOR gen1. Don't ignore this detail. EVERYONE must contribute, even if filipinos feel others aren't contributing enough. Why? Because filipinos need to do it for their nation, instead of being narrow-minded and not seeing the whole big picture.

I still can't believe you would talk about the insurgents being skilled like that. Who cares about killers who spill our filipino blood and kidnap our Catholic priests... Such a shame I would hear this!!! .... :ohno:

jgacis

July 21st, 2007, 02:32 AM

This is what happens gen1 when you negotiate with terrorists. They will negotiate back to you...

18 Koreans Kidnapped in Afghanistan
Sign In to E-Mail or Save This Print

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: July 20, 2007
Filed at 2:25 p.m. ET

KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) -- Taliban militants threatened Friday to kill at least 18 kidnapped South Korean Christians, including 15 women, within 24 hours unless the Asian nation withdraws its 200 troops from Afghanistan.

In the largest abduction of foreigners since the fall of the Taliban regime in 2001, several dozen fighters kidnapped the South Koreans at gunpoint from a bus in Ghazni province on Thursday, said Ali Shah Ahmadzai, the provincial police chief.

I hope GMA is learning from this, since she herself was a victim of these so-called NEGOTIATIONS with dela Cruz and the pull-out of our filipino troops in Iraq... :ohno: :ohno: :ohno: :ohno: :ohno:

gen1

July 21st, 2007, 02:57 AM

As a matter of fact, I am for real :)

Am on my way back to cotabato next week. I like using mnl-cot flts because the fares are cheaper. the fares are cheaper because for some starnge reason few want to take this route :lol:

One lesson of the ginanta ambush I'm taking to heart. always have fresh ammo. so I replaced all the cartidges for my CCW with new hollow points. :lol:

talk to you later, bro

TheAvenger

July 21st, 2007, 03:07 AM

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/1005-01.htm

Published on Thursday, October 5, 2006 by the Agence France Presse
Inadequate Equipment, Health Problems Face Iraq, Afghanistan Veterans: Poll
by Jocelyne Zablit

Former US presidential candidate retired Gen. Wesley Clark listens to a press conference by veterans advocacy group VoteVets.org before addressing the media in Washington. US troops serving in Iraq and Afghanistan lack proper equipment, are overstretched and face serious health problems upon their return home, according to a poll released by the group.(AFP/Nicholas Kamm)

The poll by VoteVets.org, a political action committee made up of veterans from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, showed that nearly half (42 percent) of all veterans who served in either country felt that their equipment did not meet military standards.

yopu may read further on the below link :

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/1005-01.htm

TheAvenger

July 21st, 2007, 03:10 AM

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Before the United States invaded Iraq in 2003, U.S. intelligence predicted many of the current challenges there, according to a Senate Intelligence Committee investigation report released Friday.

Those predicted -- and realized -- problems included an increase in al Qaeda operations, sectarian violence within Iraq and Iran's efforts to shape Iraq's future after the ouster of Saddam Hussein.

you may read further on the below link :

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/05/25/iraq.main/index.html

TheAvenger

July 21st, 2007, 03:17 AM

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/05/1078464637030.html

US hires mercenaries for Iraq role
By Jonathan Franklin
Santiago
March 6, 2004

The US is hiring mercenaries in Chile to replace its soldiers on security duty in Iraq.

A Pentagon contractor has begun recruiting former commandos, other soldiers and seamen, paying them up to $US4000 ($A5300) a month to guard oil wells against attack by insurgents.

Last month Blackwater USA flew a first group of about 60 former commandos, many of whom had trained under the military government of Augusto Pinochet, from Santiago to a 970-hectare training camp in North Carolina.

you may read further on below link :

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/05/1078464637030.html

TheAvenger

July 21st, 2007, 03:47 AM

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/06/25/070625fa_fact_hersh

The General’s Report :

How Antonio Taguba, who investigated the Abu Ghraib scandal, became one of its casualties.
by Seymour M. Hersh

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/070625_r16334_p233.jpg

Taguba, Antonio M. (Army Major General)

Taguba knew his report would make him unpopular: “If I lie, I lose. And, if I tell the truth, I lose.” Photograph by Mary Ellen Mark.

The Taguba Report; Prisoner Abuse; Iraq War; The Pentagon (Department of Defense)

On the afternoon of May 6, 2004, Army Major General Antonio M. Taguba was summoned to meet, for the first time, with Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld in his Pentagon conference room. Rumsfeld and his senior staff were to testify the next day, in televised hearings before the Senate and the House Armed Services Committees, about abuses at Abu Ghraib prison, in Iraq. The previous week, revelations about Abu Ghraib, including photographs showing prisoners stripped, abused, and sexually humiliated, had appeared on CBS and in The New Yorker. In response, Administration officials had insisted that only a few low-ranking soldiers were involved and that America did not torture prisoners. They emphasized that the Army itself had uncovered the scandal.

If there was a redeeming aspect to the affair, it was in the thoroughness and the passion of the Army’s initial investigation. The inquiry had begun in January, and was led by General Taguba, who was stationed in Kuwait at the time. Taguba filed his report in March. In it he found:

Numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees . . . systemic and illegal abuse.

Taguba was met at the door of the conference room by an old friend, Lieutenant General Bantz J. Craddock, who was Rumsfeld’s senior military assistant. Craddock’s daughter had been a babysitter for Taguba’s two children when the officers served together years earlier at Fort Stewart, Georgia. But that afternoon, Taguba recalled, “Craddock just said, very coldly, ‘Wait here.’ ” In a series of interviews early this year, the first he has given, Taguba told me that he understood when he began the inquiry that it could damage his career; early on, a senior general in Iraq had pointed out to him that the abused detainees were “only Iraqis.” Even so, he was not prepared for the greeting he received when he was finally ushered in.

“Here . . . comes . . . that famous General Taguba—of the Taguba report!” Rumsfeld declared, in a mocking voice. The meeting was attended by Paul Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld’s deputy; Stephen Cambone, the Under-Secretary of Defense for Intelligence; General Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (J.C.S.); and General Peter Schoomaker, the Army chief of staff, along with Craddock and other officials. Taguba, describing the moment nearly three years later, said, sadly, “I thought they wanted to know. I assumed they wanted to know. I was ignorant of the setting.”

In the meeting, the officials professed ignorance about Abu Ghraib. “Could you tell us what happened?” Wolfowitz asked. Someone else asked, “Is it abuse or torture?” At that point, Taguba recalled, “I described a naked detainee lying on the wet floor, handcuffed, with an interrogator shoving things up his rectum, and said, ‘That’s not abuse. That’s torture.’ There was quiet.”

Rumsfeld was particularly concerned about how the classified report had become public. “General,” he asked, “who do you think leaked the report?” Taguba responded that perhaps a senior military leader who knew about the investigation had done so. “It was just my speculation,” he recalled. “Rumsfeld didn’t say anything.” (I did not meet Taguba until mid-2006 and obtained his report elsewhere.) Rumsfeld also complained about not being given the information he needed. “Here I am,” Taguba recalled Rumsfeld saying, “just a Secretary of Defense, and we have not seen a copy of your report. I have not seen the photographs, and I have to testify to Congress tomorrow and talk about this.” As Rumsfeld spoke, Taguba said, “He’s looking at me. It was a statement.”

from the issuecartoon banke-mail thisAt best, Taguba said, “Rumsfeld was in denial.” Taguba had submitted more than a dozen copies of his report through several channels at the Pentagon and to the Central Command headquarters, in Tampa, Florida, which ran the war in Iraq. By the time he walked into Rumsfeld’s conference room, he had spent weeks briefing senior military leaders on the report, but he received no indication that any of them, with the exception of General Schoomaker, had actually read it. (Schoomaker later sent Taguba a note praising his honesty and leadership.) When Taguba urged one lieutenant general to look at the photographs, he rebuffed him, saying, “I don’t want to get involved by looking, because what do you do with that information, once you know what they show?”

Taguba also knew that senior officials in Rumsfeld’s office and elsewhere in the Pentagon had been given a graphic account of the pictures from Abu Ghraib, and told of their potential strategic significance, within days of the first complaint. On January 13, 2004, a military policeman named Joseph Darby gave the Army’s Criminal Investigation Division (C.I.D.) a CD full of images of abuse. Two days later, General Craddock and Vice-Admiral Timothy Keating, the director of the Joint Staff of the J.C.S., were e-mailed a summary of the abuses depicted on the CD. It said that approximately ten soldiers were shown, involved in acts that included:

Having male detainees pose nude while female guards pointed at their genitals; having female detainees exposing themselves to the guards; having detainees perform indecent acts with each other; and guards physically assaulting detainees by beating and dragging them with choker chains.

Taguba said, “You didn’t need to ‘see’ anything—just take the secure e-mail traffic at face value.”

I learned from Taguba that the first wave of materials included descriptions of the sexual humiliation of a father with his son, who were both detainees. Several of these images, including one of an Iraqi woman detainee baring her breasts, have since surfaced; others have not. (Taguba’s report noted that photographs and videos were being held by the C.I.D. because of ongoing criminal investigations and their “extremely sensitive nature.”) Taguba said that he saw “a video of a male American soldier in uniform sodomizing a female detainee.” The video was not made public in any of the subsequent court proceedings, nor has there been any public government mention of it. Such images would have added an even more inflammatory element to the outcry over Abu Ghraib. “It’s bad enough that there were photographs of Arab men wearing women’s panties,” Taguba said.

TheAvenger

July 21st, 2007, 03:53 AM

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: "Perrydiaz@aol. com" <Perrydiaz@aol. com>
To: BALITA-USA@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:55:22 PM
Subject: [BALITA-USA] PerryScope - Antonio Taguba: Duty, Honor, and Courage

PerryScope
Perry Diaz

Antonio Taguba: Duty, Honor, and Courage

There comes a time in your life when you reach a crossroad and the route you choose alters your life -- for better or worse -- forever. Major General Antonio Taguba reached that junction on January 31, 2004 when duty called and sent him on a mission that changed his life.

Major General Antonio Taguba was born on October 31, 1950, in Sampaloc, Manila, Philippines. His father Tomas Taguba, a soldier, was a survivor of the Bataan Death March in World War II. He managed to escape and joined the resistance against the Japanese occupation.

In 1961, Taguba’s family immigrated to Hawaii. He graduated in 1972 from Idaho State University and joined the Army. He rose through the ranks and earned his first star in 1997. In 2003, he earned his second star and was appointed deputy commanding general of the 3rd Army stationed in Kuwait.

Taguba was doing very well in his new assignment until a scandal involving American military police abuses in a military prison in Iraq was exposed in January 2004. At that time, Sgt. Joseph Darby, who was stationed at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, sent a compact disc containing incriminating photographs of abuses including a letter to the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command. Lt. General Ricardo Sanchez, the chief allied commander in Iraq, sent Taguba to Abu Ghraib prison to conduct a routine “Article 15-6 military inquiry” into the alleged Abu Ghraib abuses.

What Taguba reported rocked the nation -- nay, the world -- and placed the U.S. Army in the worst light in its long and glorious history. Known as the “Taguba Report,” it contained 6,000 pages documenting atrocious acts committed by the military police. His report found numerous “sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses.” His report made him a hero but his military career was doomed. Consequently, he was reassigned to the Pentagon as “Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Readiness, Training and Mobilization.” What appeared to be a promotion, Taguba’s reassignment was actually a punishment. In bureaucratic parlance this action is called “kicked upstairs.”

Calls for the resignation of Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld mounted but fell on deaf ears at the White House. In his testimony before a joint Senate-House panel on May 7, 2004, Rumsfeld denied that he had any knowledge of the Abu Ghraib abuses. The following day, President Bush publicly said that he was “sorry for the abuse some Iraqi detainees have suffered at the hands of American troops” but said that Rumsfeld would stay in his job. On May 11, 2004, Taguba testified before the same panel and claimed that “troops just don’t take it upon themselves to initiate what they did without any form of knowledge of the higher-ups.” He believed that somebody was giving guidance to the MPs but he was legally prevented from investigating further into higher authority. What appeared to be a cover-up was referred to in the press as “Tagubagate.”

In January 2006, the Army’s Vice-Chief of Staff telephoned Taguba and said, “This is your Vice, I need you to retire by January of 2007.” No pleasantries were made and no reason was given. But Taguba knew. After his forced retirement he avoided the limelight and -- as Gen. Douglas MacArthur said of old soldiers a half a century ago -- he just “faded away.” But his quietude was brief. In June of 2007, he broke his silence and he gave an interview to Seymour Hersh of the New Yorker. Once again, Taguba was in the limelight; this time with vengeance. In his interview, Taguba gave a detailed account of the Abu Ghraib abuses and the events that transpired following the release of the “Taguba Report.”.

On June 25, 2007, Taguba spoke at the prestigious Commonwealth Club in San Francisco which I attended. The event was “sold out.” He was very relaxed and his friendly smile belied the seriousness and controversial nature of his subject. Taguba set the tone of his speech with an account of his close encounter with death on 9/11. He was at the Pentagon at that time and less that 100 feet away from the spot hit by an0 airplane hijacked by terrorists and forced to crash into the building. Among those killed was another general and a close friend of Taguba.

He said that the whistleblower of the Abu Ghraib abuses, Sgt. Joseph Darby, did the right thing. Darby was his hero. But to a lot of people -- particularly in the military -- Darby was a traitor. After receiving numerous death threats, Darby and his family were placed in “protective military custody” in a secret location.

Taguba contended that military higher-up officials should be held responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib. When he was asked by someone in the audience if Rumsfeld knew about the abuses prior to his testimony in Congress, Taguba said that he had submitted more than a dozen copies of his report to the Pentagon top brass and it was very unlikely for Rumsfeld not to know or not be briefed. Furthermore, he said that in October 2003, Red Cross conducted an inspection of Abu Ghraib and submitted a report to the US military in Iraq stating that there were abuses. When asked if Rumsfeld should be held responsible for the abuses, Taguba said that he would not comment on that and the audience chuckled at his response.

He said that his report has forced the US military to revise its policies on prison management and standard operating procedures. Many of his recommendations were adopted and implemented. However, he said that on Mother’s Day, May 10, 2004 -- the day before his testimony in Congress -- his career ended.

He concluded his speech by honoring the more than 3,000 soldiers who died in the war in Iraq. They were his heroes, he said. He believed that every soldier has a “call to duty to serve the nation in uniform.” For a man who had been “punished” for doing the right thing, Taguba remains proud of the military establishment, particularly the men and women in uniform. For telling the truth, no one can ever question his character and integrity. A true soldier to the end, his courage should be the model for those who want to serve their country with duty and honor. After his speech, he mingled with the audience. I shook his hand and thanked him for what he did. He looked me in the eyes and gave me a sincere smile.

(PerryDiaz@aol. com)

jgacis

July 21st, 2007, 05:12 AM

TheAvenger

July 21st, 2007, 06:24 AM

cruizer333444

July 21st, 2007, 06:55 AM

bitoy

July 21st, 2007, 07:11 AM

the american gov't should donate even 2 apache attack hellicopters to the philippines. that will help our arm forces greatly in basilan, jojo, and tawi-tawi. i think the americans are becoming to be cheap or poor?

No budget, the US could not just give away any of their helicopters that are still in service. The Philippines should order brand new ones for at least $15 Million each plus weapons and support that usually cost the same amount of the helicopter.

dinabaw

July 21st, 2007, 08:38 AM

I am also SAD FOR YOU, for thinking that there is no other option out there but the misery filipino leadership in the Philippines keep placing filipinos into.

The U.S. is not an "ideal" democracy, but it is a "working" democracy that has the strength of balancing both ends of the political spectrum. While we have our good rich, we also have our Enron's. And while we have our poor, we have our school drop-outs like Bill Gates. We have somebodies turn into nobodies, and our nobodies turn into somebodies. If you can't picture that any more ideal, that's because you can't imagine it. And that's what I infer from your level of thinking. Lack of imagination.

Just because corruption and poverty is all over the Philippines, every filipino in every region seems to make that as their reason for their "BAHALA NA" attitude. Open my eyes? I think my eyes have seen alot. Now I'm trying to open my mind, and not be close-minded by like some filipinos who don't have the vision for change, change within themselves..... Instead, they wait for everyone else to change before they make the effort to change themselves. I'm not waiting for nobody... :mad2:

You thinking for "the best of our country" and "equal rights to every culture" can only be defined by the IMAGINATION of the filipino people. So I really don't know how much you envision (imagine) for the Philippines, but I personally have high visions for it.

It needs to start by having real leadership in the AFP and getting rid of the ARMM. The Abu-Sayef (and now, since the latest killings, the MILF) is the IDEOLOGICAL VANGUARD for the governing body of the ARMM. The AFP lacks vision in defining the long-term threat of this matter against our nation. This is due to corruption, lack of leadership, and training.

To fix this, it either starts at the top (leadership) and work it's way down, or starts from the bottom and work it's way up. It can't start in the middle, out of nowhere, because of the hierarchy of the AFP. Yet, that's what filipinos always look for - answers from the middle, out of nowhere.... :ohno:

Why are you labeling me as a "westerner", because I live in U.S?

Even though my tagalog isn't that good, I am still brown, eat filipino food, visit/live in the Philippines every year (parents ko), send money to the motherland (@TheAvenger ;)), and love the beauty and nature of Pinas. It seems like to me that you guys won't consider me filipino unless I "THINK" like a filipino, according to your standards. WTF?! :mad2:

Is that how we must define a filipino exclusively? A person who "THINKS" like filipino? What the hell is that??? :ohno:

I have seen filipinos from all parts of this world and we are as diverse as the blood in our genes.

I am criticizing AFP leadership and the killings from our EXTREME filipino muslims. Filipinos should have the right to go to any part of the Philippines and travel/explore if they want to without fear. Instead, if they go somewhere near danger, all the relatives start warning them. Even when I went to General Santos last year and Zamboanga/Basilan earlier this year, there was always some filipino telling me "it's dangerous there" or "why did you go there". When your own people live in fear, it's hard to be proud of your country..... :ohno:

why did our debate came to a "Filipino atiitude" :dunno:...the bahala na attitude? i was rebutting your " dissolve the ARMM" ...for me your not putting our discussion into perspective ... i think your confused w/ ARMM, MILF, MNLF & Abus you thought they are all ONE. for me i am not , as such i am not confuse w/ NPA ,NDF ,waray waray gang & estribo gang or ginang gang . I am reacting on why would we dissolve the ARMM to change it to ...say FOTT ... same as in Philippine Politics...charter change or not same politikos/family dynasty will emerge in our government .:ohno:

so if aiming for the best for my country & it's equal rights is just my imagination or maybe from your view i am hallucinating ... i am confused w/ you Mr. Igacis.... maybe it's the other way around .. you who live far away from the Philippines dictates how should we "behave" in politics & in our culture ? I think you need further ananlyzes before you came up w/ a solution not just reading from news or had a short vacation & taking photos ...which from our forefathers and the present generation are still finding a solution.

btw i am not labelling you a "westerner" it's your view that makes me think your a westerner ;)

TheAvenger

July 21st, 2007, 06:29 PM

By Ramon Tulfo
Inquirer
Last updated 02:31am (Mla time) 07/21/2007

MANILA, Philippines -- Many readers were shocked upon reading in this column Thursday about the alleged participation of the men of former Basilan governor and now Rep. Wahab Akbar in the massacre of Marines in the province.

Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) rebels and Akbar’s men reportedly conspired in ambushing the Marines who were returning home after a futile search for kidnapped Italian priest Giancarlo Bossi.

Here’s another shocker: The MILF was telling the truth when it denied that its members committed the beheading and mutilation of the dead Marines.

My source in the military intelligence alleges that the people who beheaded and mutilated the dead Marines were Akbar’s men!

Akbar, as you know, is a former leader of the Abu Sayyaf who surrendered to the government.

With the massacre of the Marines, it would look like Akbar’s loyalties are still with the Abu Sayyaf.

you may read further on the below link :

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/metro/view_article.php?article_id=77911

TheAvenger

July 21st, 2007, 06:33 PM

By Christine AvendaÃ±o
Inquirer
Last updated 09:06pm (Mla time) 07/21/2007

MANILA, Philippines – It was a presidential seal of approval for the punitive actions to come.

On the eve of government actions against those behind the gruesome death of 14 Philippine Marines in Basilan, President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo sent her own presidential security forces to join the military and police in going after the attackers.

In send-off ceremonies at the Kalayaan grounds inside Malacañang, President Arroyo, in a crimson red outfit, bade farewell and good luck to the 65-member Marine contingent of the Presidential Security Group (PSG) who promptly left for Basilan on Saturday.

you may read further on below weblinK

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/nation/view_article.php?article_id=78001

------------------------------------------------

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/marinespsg.jpg

SEND-OFF CEREMONY. President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo is led to her place by Presidential Security Group chief Brigadier General Romeo Prestoza (R) at the send-off ceremony for PSG Marines on the grounds of Kalayaan Hall, Malacanang. A total of 65 Marines belonging to the 93rd Marine Security Escort Company of the PSG are being temporarily deployed to Basilan for 45 to 60 days. Last July 10, 2007, 14 Marines were killed in an ambush in Basilan as they searched for kidnapped Italian priest Fr. Giancarlo Bossi. PHILIPPINE DAILY INQUIRER/LYN RILLON

TheAvenger

July 21st, 2007, 06:54 PM

Video of Presidential Security Group - Marine contingent leaves for Basilan.

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9391/PSG-contingent-leaves-for-Basilan-to-hunt-beheaders

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/psg2.jpg

President Arroyo addresses a Marines contingent of the PSG headed for Basilan during send-off ceremonies in Malacanang on Saturday. PCPO

jgacis

July 22nd, 2007, 12:14 AM

it is sad that our country with a meager resources have to spread thin our armed forces in it's own sovereign territory.

unlike other nation who spread their armed forces to other country's territory.:)

I see your point of your blue highlights.

But my point is that even filipinos (not you personally) can't provide effective AFP leadership against the insurgents (thus continued kidnappings and beheadings). I suggest that either the administration totally segregates from the ARMM areas (if that is the will of filipinos) from the nation, or dissolve it completely. I would prefer that the administration gets rid of it once and for all. That is the problem, filipinos choose to keep things "the same" and still think there will always be a solution for peace. Philippines has always tried and continues to fail. Sometimes you just have to wake up, take your losses (or fix them for once), and move on.

Unlike other nations who spread their forces in other countries? Do you know how much these so-called "western" nations also help other countries, like your country @TheAvenger? How naive are you to only look at one tiny PIXEL of an entire picture? :ohno:

When I was deployed overseas, you wouldn't believe the amount of food and supplies we shipped to other countries. But the media won't show this, and I really don't care. True giving is when you give more than you receive. Of course you can always say that it was in America's "interests". But heck, if you always use that as an excuse, then ANYTHING America does will always be in her interest. So what if we want to preserve DEMOCRACY and support those who oppose CORRUPTION. Do you think other countries suffer only because of "western nations"? Are you ignorant to never realize that internal corruption plays a MAJOR factor among the local populace? Only cheap shots against the big nations are the best excuses from people who have no one else to ask for help. This is only because they themselves have failed to see the answer lies in their own hearts and minds...

No wonder why your resources are so "meager"... :ohno:

jgacis

July 22nd, 2007, 12:36 AM

why did our debate came to a "Filipino atiitude" :dunno:...the bahala na attitude? i was rebutting your " dissolve the ARMM" ...for me your not putting our discussion into perspective ... i think your confused w/ ARMM, MILF, MNLF & Abus you thought they are all ONE. for me i am not , as such i am not confuse w/ NPA ,NDF ,waray waray gang & estribo gang or ginang gang . I am reacting on why would we dissolve the ARMM to change it to ...say FOTT ... same as in Philippine Politics...charter change or not same politikos/family dynasty will emerge in our government .:ohno:

So why are you questioning our debate in regards to the "bahala na" attitude?

Why do you say "WHy did our debate came to ...". You act like I totally CHANGED the subject or argument! :ohno: Are you even really listening to what I am saying?

I mentioned the "BAHALA NA" attitude because that is EXACTLY what I said!!!
And IMO, their is a CLEAR connection with poor non-effective leadership and the general attitude of the BAHALA NA attitude. My opinion is based on my own personal assesment from transpired events and the "attitude" and remarks I read/hear from you guys and the news. I also talked with my parents about this and other friends there, but their attitudes also very.

All the MILF/ASG/MNLF/ARMM to me is ONE entity! They may have different membership and dissimilar goals, but they all SHARE the vision of an ISLAMIC STATE. While history shows they have a right to this, MURDERS/BEHEADINGS/KIDNAPPINGS should NOT fit into our definition of "PEACETALKS"!!!

But if you want to give them the benefit of the doubt, then "bahala na"... ;) But I won't fall for it....

so if aiming for the best for my country & it's equal rights is just my imagination or maybe from your view i am hallucinating ... i am confused w/ you Mr. Igacis.... maybe it's the other way around .. you who live far away from the Philippines dictates how should we "behave" in politics & in our culture ? I think you need further ananlyzes before you came up w/ a solution not just reading from news or had a short vacation & taking photos ...which from our forefathers and the present generation are still finding a solution.

Its ok if you keep thinking I am an armchair tourist or commentator. I think you are totally clueless about me, so I won't take your comments personally. :) By the way, I lived there when I was younger and now that is is also my second home. My parents live there and I try to visit them once a year. I own properties there and when I go there, I just don't sit there, I explore the islands and learn from the people (hence all my travels around the islands). My parents/relatives and I have had many deep discussions. Researching filipino "opinion" from around the world, I have had many conversations with filipinos from all my travels and military deployments (which included many OFW cooks/employees at the military cafeterias I ate in). I also try to continue reading filipino history and go to the Philippines REGULARLY. Did you hear that? Not one trip, not two, but REGULARLY. Don't act like I don't know nothing there. While I will admit I don't know everything there, I do know the things that make huge differences in peoples lives there - they vary from region to region. And that's what I am trying to focus on. The Mindanao/MILF/AFP issue plays a big part in the development of Mindanao and the lives of the filipinos there, as well as the rest of the nation.

I am generally critcizing the "BEHAVIOR" of corruption and poor leadership in the Philippines. I don't mean to criticize everybody there. Most filipinos are good people. It's just the few bad ones in office that abuse the masses or don't empower the people because they are scared of losing their power/position. So please excuse me if that's what it seems.

btw i am not labelling you a "westerner" it's your view that makes me think your a westerner ;)

Ok, thanks for not making me feel "LABELLED" ..HEHE... But I hold strong to my views. I am also willing to CHANGE my views if filipinos CHANGE their attitudes about their country, their problems, and their leadership. :)

I'm not trying to say it's an easy thing. But filipinos need to put more effort for change, that's all.... You also need to stop complaining about "other" nations (they have done more long-term good than long-term harm), your energies belong to the Philippines, so complain more about the corrupt filipinos here... ;)

Sorry if my words sound harsh. I'm just trying to provide critical debates here and keep the juices flowing..;) I'm just tired of seeing filipinos making the same mistakes over and over again all throughout my life. That means I care, di ba?

jgacis

July 22nd, 2007, 12:46 AM

the american gov't should donate even 2 apache attack hellicopters to the philippines. that will help our arm forces greatly in basilan, jojo, and tawi-tawi. i think the americans are becoming to be cheap or poor?

Should donate? Of course we can! :)

But learn first how to fix your corruption there among the AFP ranks and I'm sure America will be more than willing to send you your 2 AH-64 Apache helicopters. Do you want mavericks and hell-fire missiles with that? :)

The Longbow version might cost you a little extra... ;)

Just make sure your pilots follow safety procedures and not fly into a kite string. And tell your AFP spokesperson not to provide the media with unverified or critical intel info. pertinent to military operations. And oh, it looks bad if word goes around Phiilippine military personal are selling firearms to the insurgents which came from America....

This is just a suggestion... ;)

bitoy

July 22nd, 2007, 12:51 AM

^^ @jgacis, I'm having fun watching you go up against almost everybody here, man!, I know you can handle them all, no need for backup. hehehe, I'm always on your sides, back and front. :)

And about those food and supplies..etc, sometimes I feel like throwing up when some of them go to waste. And in certain areas, we just could not hand them over to certain citizens because of safety and ethnic issues.
Those Pinoys OFWs in KSA felt really good when we gave them some food that they could not purchased on the local market.

jgacis

July 22nd, 2007, 01:40 AM

^^ TOTOO! Here's another story.

My friend in the Air Force is vietnamese, a sergeant. When he was in Doha, Qatar last year he met many filipinos in the cafeteria working there.

In Qatar, pork is prohibited to the residents and local workers, except inside the U.S. base where it is served to U.S. personnel.

Many of our OFW kababayans working on base miss eating pork and my co-worker was kind enough to sneak a couple of porkchops into a container and give it to them. I would have done the same. :colgate:

And we are talking about the U.S. military here... :)

My friend, a refugee from communism during the US Vietnam war, totally supports the U.S. military and the war with Iraq (although he says we should have entered the war in a better way). But I see him as one of the very few who respects the country who saved his life (courtesy of the UNITED STATES NAVY). Before entering the states, he stopped over in Palawan and Bataan. If I show him the Philippines one day, he wants to visit those places again.. :)

He said he would rather have American corruption than any other corruption from another nation. His viewpoint was that American corruption has never had the LONG-TERM damages among the masses than other nations have committed. He admits American corruption, but unlike any other ones he as seen in Vietnam and all his travels (he works on commercial ships as a merchant marine officer). I also say that the U.S. is the only country where the highest ranking officials charged with corruption can immediately be placed on the media spotlight in front of a judical inquiry committee. American corruption is more susceptible to transparency, usually centralized to local networks, and publicly PUNISHED! Unlike many nations where corruption pervades to the entire masses in one way or another that has a LONG-TERM detrimental impact into their quality of life. I dream of this change for the Philippines..... :) But I think our culture, not just the system, will hold us back unless we are willing to bend a little and change for the better.

I know many people here like Americans, but don't like American foreign policies. But American foreign policies cannot please EVERYONE. That would be ridiculous. And if developing nations want assistance, they also have to work hard in their own internal corruption. It's not easy, but not impossible if filipinos believe in their hearts and minds. Democracy and freedom is really taken for granted nowadays, IMO..... So sad....

Thanks for your support!! I also understand you yourself might not totally agree with everything I have to say. I still respect that.

As they say...

IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT AND STAND BEHIND YOUR TROOPS, YOU MIGHT BE STANDING IN FRONT OF THEM ONE DAY..... :lol:

TheAvenger

July 22nd, 2007, 02:04 AM

jgacis

July 22nd, 2007, 02:07 AM

^^ ^^

Quote

IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT AND STAND BEHIND YOUR TROOPS, YOU MIGHT BE STANDING IN FRONT OF THEM ONE DAY..... Quote

as if in firing squad ?

i am not really good in english .... cannot get it... :)

Hehe...it's ok..It's my fault. I should have clarified that better...... :lol:

It can mean that way I guess..., but also.....

If you don't support the troops, you might have to end up fighting your own battles with the enemy one day, with those same troops hiding behind you (since you never supported them, they are now hiding behind you and supporting you to fight for them... :lol:).

TheAvenger

July 22nd, 2007, 02:51 AM

http://opinion.inquirer.net/inquireropinion/editorial/view_article.php?article_id=78038

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z82/jewel_087/Fr.Bossi.jpg

THERE’S A SEASON FOR EVERY ACTIVITY UNDER HEAVEN: After a long spell of weeping, it is time for Fr. Bossi to laugh, and laugh he does with gusto, sharing the moment in Malacañang (after meeting President Arroyo) with his compatriot, Italian Ambassador Rubens Anna Fedele, who’s known to have tirelessly worked with the authorities for the priest’s release. PHILIPPINE DAILY INQUIRER/LYN RILLON

EDITORIAL
Blaming Bossi

Inquirer
Last updated 04:05am (Mla time) 07/22/2007

MANILA, Philippines—The joy and relief were first expressed in Rome, by Italian Prime Minister Romano Prodi. “Fr. Giancarlo Bossi has been freed … I’m truly emotional, happy,” he said. Similar sentiments were expressed by Pope Benedict XVI, who greeted the news with “great joy,” according to a Vatican statement. Happy noises were also made by our government, but something strange happened when Bossi was brought to Malacañang to meet President Macapagal-Arroyo.

When Bossi recounted his brief conversation with the President, the priest revealed that after congratulating him, the President laid on a guilt trip. “She congratulated me and then she told me that a lot of people died,” he said. Apparently, the guilt trip worked. Referring to the Marines who lost their lives in an ambush during search-and-rescue operations, the priest said, “I think that in a sense, I feel responsible.”

Stay home. Lock your doors. If anything happens to you, if government lifts a finger to help you, watch out. You will not only be blamed for your misfortune, you will be reminded to never forget that your rescue was a favor.

You may read further on below web link :
url]http://opinion.inquirer.net/inquireropinion/editorial/view_article.php?article_id=78038[/url]

TheAvenger

July 22nd, 2007, 02:54 AM

Palace, AFP don’t know of ‘unique approach’

By Arlyn dela Cruz, Julie Alipala, Christine AvendaÃ±o
Inquirer
Last updated 06:04am (Mla time) 07/22/2007

MANILA, Philippines—The government on Saturday was dismissive of the Inquirer report that its agents had kidnapped family members of the leader of the group that abducted Fr. Giancarlo Bossi to pressure him to release the priest.

Armed Forces Chief of Staff Gen. Hermogenes Esperon Jr. said he was unaware that the government had resorted to such an action. “I really don’t know anything about any family that was kidnapped,” he said in a phone interview.

pls read further on below link :

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view_article.php?article_id=78031

dinabaw

July 22nd, 2007, 03:50 AM

So why are you questioning our debate in regards to the "bahala na" attitude?

Why do you say "WHy did our debate came to ...". You act like I totally CHANGED the subject or argument! :ohno: Are you even really listening to what I am saying?

I mentioned the "BAHALA NA" attitude because that is EXACTLY what I said!!!
And IMO, their is a CLEAR connection with poor non-effective leadership and the general attitude of the BAHALA NA attitude. My opinion is based on my own personal assesment from transpired events and the "attitude" and remarks I read/hear from you guys and the news. I also talked with my parents about this and other friends there, but their attitudes also very.

All the MILF/ASG/MNLF/ARMM to me is ONE entity! They may have different membership and dissimilar goals, but they all SHARE the vision of an ISLAMIC STATE. While history shows they have a right to this, MURDERS/BEHEADINGS/KIDNAPPINGS should NOT fit into our definition of "PEACETALKS"!!!

But if you want to give them the benefit of the doubt, then "bahala na"... ;) But I won't fall for it....

Its ok if you keep thinking I am an armchair tourist or commentator. I think you are totally clueless about me, so I won't take your comments personally. :) By the way, I lived there when I was younger and now that is is also my second home. My parents live there and I try to visit them once a year. I own properties there and when I go there, I just don't sit there, I explore the islands and learn from the people (hence all my travels around the islands). My parents/relatives and I have had many deep discussions. Researching filipino "opinion" from around the world, I have had many conversations with filipinos from all my travels and military deployments (which included many OFW cooks/employees at the military cafeterias I ate in). I also try to continue reading filipino history and go to the Philippines REGULARLY. Did you hear that? Not one trip, not two, but REGULARLY. Don't act like I don't know nothing there. While I will admit I don't know everything there, I do know the things that make huge differences in peoples lives there - they vary from region to region. And that's what I am trying to focus on. The Mindanao/MILF/AFP issue plays a big part in the development of Mindanao and the lives of the filipinos there, as well as the rest of the nation.

I am generally critcizing the "BEHAVIOR" of corruption and poor leadership in the Philippines. I don't mean to criticize everybody there. Most filipinos are good people. It's just the few bad ones in office that abuse the masses or don't empower the people because they are scared of losing their power/position. So please excuse me if that's what it seems.

Ok, thanks for not making me feel "LABELLED" ..HEHE... But I hold strong to my views. I am also willing to CHANGE my views if filipinos CHANGE their attitudes about their country, their problems, and their leadership. :)

I'm not trying to say it's an easy thing. But filipinos need to put more effort for change, that's all.... You also need to stop complaining about "other" nations (they have done more long-term good than long-term harm), your energies belong to the Philippines, so complain more about the corrupt filipinos here... ;)

Sorry if my words sound harsh. I'm just trying to provide critical debates here and keep the juices flowing..;) I'm just tired of seeing filipinos making the same mistakes over and over again all throughout my life. That means I care, di ba?

Yes you diverted the discussion, 2 things i disagreed w/ you, first the US base issue & second you want to dissolve the ARMM , but you diverted it by putting a photo ,as in your eyes prejudice and the bahala na attitude.
sad to say you have no idea why the ARMM was created, you think this was created by Muslims themselves. your mind is fixed w/ all muslims are the same, have the same agenda, well idon't blame you thats also the problem of some Filipinos. imo most muslims wants to be a FILIPINO.

you based your opinnion from 2nd hand informations, but still you didn't answer my question, after dissolving the ARMM , then what? so i restate you know nothing about MINDANAO!
You never felt how the ARMM made a more stable Mindanao. If you have a problem giving millions to ARMM
,well it's a small price to pay that we enjoy right now than w/out the ARMM . it's worth the costs than those congressmen who ventures in overpriced projects .and it's worth the costs than that shameful NAIA 2!

I don't find your words harsh , but your opinion about Mindanao seems "out of touch " ;)

TheAvenger

July 22nd, 2007, 07:07 AM

No budget, the US could not just give away any of their helicopters that are still in service. The Philippines should order brand new ones for at least $15 Million each plus weapons and support that usually cost the same amount of the helicopter.

perhaps they should pay back retroactively the years they stayed for free in their military bases in RP. they can pay us back with new aircrafts, naval ships, armored vehicles, tanks, mortars, etc. Not those mothballed Naval ships and second hand Vietnam-era Huey helicopters and 2nd hand aircrafts used in Korean war and vietnam war like the Tora Tora planes, etc.

btw how much the US has saved in rental free and later in their peanut rental in their used of the huge military bases and facilities in the Philippines : subic, clark, camp o'donnel, Poro point airstation, Sangley Point Air/Naval stations, Bago Bantay VOA radio relay stations, etc. compared to what they pay in Lajes Airbase in Portugal, Incirlic Airbase in Turkey, bases in Greece, etc, what they have paid in RP is PEANUTS.

TheAvenger

July 22nd, 2007, 10:45 AM

Posted: Jul 22 2007, 05:46 AM
Cabo Segundo

Group: Regulars
Posts: 36
Member No.: 735
Joined: 27-May 06

The government and armed forces should always be seen as a neutral, centrist, and stabilizing force in the country.

IT SHOULD NOT BE EITHER PRO OR ANTI COMMUNIST. The state should not have an opinion with regards to the ideology of any particular party.

The State should be anti-communist only in as far as the CPP-NPA-NDF continues to use armed violence to further it cause.

With regards to legal leftist political groups, it's not the duty of government to oppose them. That is a job for rival political groups with their own rival ideology and counter propaganda.

YOU WANT TO COUNTER COMMUNIST PROPAGANDA?........FORM A FAR RIGHT WING NATIONALIST POLITICAL PARTY!

This NEO-FASCIST politcal party should have a student youth movement as well as a labor union. It should have tie-ins with various anti-communist patriotic societies and ex-servicemen's or veteran's associations.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A GENUINE DEMOCRACY IF THERE IS NO PARLIAMENTARY REPRESENTATION FROM THE FAR LEFT AND THE FAR RIGHT.

__________________________________________________

FOR GOD, MOTHER AND HOMELAND!

This post has been edited by Tony Moon on Jul 22 2007, 06:01 AM

from web link :

http://pdff.sytes.net/index.php?showtopic=4459

TheAvenger

July 22nd, 2007, 03:32 PM

http://www.mindanaoexaminer.com/news.php?news_id=20070722060141

More Troops Sent To Southern RP Island To Hunt Executioners Of Marines
Sunday, July 22, 2007 07:01:41 PM

BASILAN (Mindanao Examiner / 22 Jul) – More troops arrived Sunday in the southern Filipino island of Basilan, as the military prepares for a major offensive against Moro rebels behind the beheading of ten marine soldiers.

The soldiers were among the 14 slaughtered in the town of Al-Barka on July 10 while searching for a kidnapped Italian Catholic priest Giancarlo Bossi,who was freed by rogue MILF members in Lanao del Norte province July 19.

Marine Col. Ramiro Alivio, the commander of military forces in Basilan island, said hundreds of troops, including dozens of elite Presidential guards, have arrived to join the hunt for the rebels.

“We are ready for the punitive action,” Ramiro said.

He did not say when the offensive would start, but the military ultimatum for the MILF to surrender those behind the killings ended Sunday.

The MILF, which is negotiating peace with Manila, has repeatedly said it will not yield any of its members, saying, the soldiers entered a rebel stronghold that triggered the day-long clashes.

Mohagher Iqbal, chief MILF peace negotiator, said any attack on MILF forces in Basilan could spark an all-out war and may hurt the negotiations with the government to end more than three decades of bloody fighting in the southern region of Mindanao.

“Our forces are ready to repulse any attack by the Philippine military. We are also ready and prepared,” Iqbal said. “Our fighters in Basilan will now invoke our right to self-defense, which is a God-given to anyone who is attacked right in his homes.”

A senior MILF leader Abdurahman Macapaar, commander of the 2nd Bangsamoro Islamic Armed Forces, warned that any attack against the rebel group, could escalate and spark fighting in other areas.

Philippine military chief Gen. Hermogenes Esperon insisted the rebels were behind the beheading of the soldiers.

Sattar Alih, head of the MILF cease-fire monitoring team in Basilan island, said rebel forces withdrew from the battle scene, leaving the bodies of soldiers behind, after military and rebels agreed to a cease-fire.

It was unknown who were behind the decapitation, but intelligence sources in Basilan have implicated unnamed politicians who allegedly supplied the Abu Sayyaf and with mortar rockets, weapons and munitions during the fighting.

Their private armies also fought against the military forces side-by-side with the MILF and that two gunmen had died in the skirmishes. The gunmen were believed behind the mutilation of the slain soldiers.

Alivio said they were investigating reports that private armies of politicians, some of them members of the al-Qaeda-linked Abu Sayyaf group, joined forces with the MILF in attacking the soldiers.

The MILF is the Philippines’ largest Muslim rebel group fighting for separate homeland in Mindanao. (With a report from Merlyn Manos)

http://www.mindanaoexaminer.com/news.php?news_id=20070722060141

bitoy

July 22nd, 2007, 08:28 PM

perhaps they should pay back retroactively the years they stayed for free in their military bases in RP. they can pay us back with new aircrafts, naval ships, armored vehicles, tanks, mortars, etc. Not those mothballed Naval ships and second hand Vietnam-era Huey helicopters and 2nd hand aircrafts used in Korean war and vietnam war like the Tora Tora planes, etc.

btw how much the US has saved in rental free and later in their peanut rental in their used of the huge military bases and facilities in the Philippines : subic, clark, camp o'donnel, Poro point airstation, Sangley Point Air/Naval stations, Bago Bantay VOA radio relay stations, etc. compared to what they pay in Lajes Airbase in Portugal, Incirlic Airbase in Turkey, bases in Greece, etc, what they have paid in RP is PEANUTS.

You can not put any $$$ amount on how much the US had save on those rental agreement as oppose to their humanitarian, financial and military assistance to the Philippines. If You have the figures to show, then lay it down here.
Also, when you have time, search for the THE ORIGINAL BASES AGREEMENT of 1947 and the AMENDMENTS TO THE BASES AGREEMENT In 1956 and other revision, these are plain political and economic issue, just imagine the economic aid and the local civilian employees hired by the bases plus the economic growth of all areas surrounding those bases. Pagbibigayan lang yan, or in short, "give or take".
Aren't you glad that the entire world is not speaking Japanese or German?

jgacis

July 22nd, 2007, 08:52 PM

Yes you diverted the discussion, 2 things i disagreed w/ you, first the US base issue & second you want to dissolve the ARMM , but you diverted it by putting a photo ,as in your eyes prejudice and the bahala na attitude.
sad to say you have no idea why the ARMM was created, you think this was created by Muslims themselves. your mind is fixed w/ all muslims are the same, have the same agenda, well idon't blame you thats also the problem of some Filipinos. imo most muslims wants to be a FILIPINO.

you based your opinnion from 2nd hand informations, but still you didn't answer my question, after dissolving the ARMM , then what? so i restate you know nothing about MINDANAO!
You never felt how the ARMM made a more stable Mindanao. If you have a problem giving millions to ARMM
,well it's a small price to pay that we enjoy right now than w/out the ARMM . it's worth the costs than those congressmen who ventures in overpriced projects .and it's worth the costs than that shameful NAIA 2!

I don't find your words harsh , but your opinion about Mindanao seems "out of touch " ;)

You think I diverted the discussion because you only have a NARROW viewpoint of the whole matter.

I talked about the U.S. bases and the ARMM because they ALL fall under the general context of ineffective military protocol throughout our ENTIRE nation.

This thread, PHILIPPINE DEFENSE FORCES, MUST understand/analyze U.S. forces and the ARMM issue and implement them into their strategic vision and mission for our nation's security. So far it has been a crap shoot. :ohno:

It's okay if you REFUSE to see the whole picture because it might be too overwhelming for you to understand. It's just that I have travelled to many places and in some ways I see that we all have a responsibilty for one another, especially when it comes to stopping the CORRUPTION in Pinas. Call me an idealist if you will, but I don't think I am. Criticizing our weaknesses, IMO, is being pragmatical because it makes us realize our weaknesses that we keep seeing with our military and security almost daily. When we can accept them within our minds and hearts, instead of denying them, I think we can make major progress. Our leadership really needs to think of ALL of us. This can only be done when they stop thinking about themselves and start thinking of our nation. It shouldn't just be seen as regional policies only, but implementing national policies for our common safety and protection.

I don't see that with the MILF/ASG/ARMM, etc. This has been demonstrated REPEATEDLY in the past and now, the latest kidnapping and beheadings only proves my point (and many other filipinos) only FURTHER.

So I don't understand fanatical/extremists muslims and the ARMM? Maybe I don't, but I definitely don't want to see continued BOMBINGS/BEHEADINGS, etc. etc. in the Philippines. Support them if you will. I won't.....

So it's okay dinabaw, think what you believe in. I will think mine.. ;)

But I do agree with you on overpriced projects and the shameful NAIA terminal fiasco... ;)

jgacis

July 22nd, 2007, 09:07 PM

perhaps they should pay back retroactively the years they stayed for free in their military bases in RP. they can pay us back with new aircrafts, naval ships, armored vehicles, tanks, mortars, etc. Not those mothballed Naval ships and second hand Vietnam-era Huey helicopters and 2nd hand aircrafts used in Korean war and vietnam war like the Tora Tora planes, etc.

btw how much the US has saved in rental free and later in their peanut rental in their used of the huge military bases and facilities in the Philippines : subic, clark, camp o'donnel, Poro point airstation, Sangley Point Air/Naval stations, Bago Bantay VOA radio relay stations, etc. compared to what they pay in Lajes Airbase in Portugal, Incirlic Airbase in Turkey, bases in Greece, etc, what they have paid in RP is PEANUTS.

Tsinoy is right. The Philippines has received alot more help than what you see only on rental payments.

Think of the Philippines as a "HIGH-MAINTENANCE" country that the U.S. has spent $MILLIONS$ on for food, medical supplies, infrastructure, etc. etc.

Don't you even understand the U.S. has helped alot more in the past such as women's rights? Can you put a price to that? Geez, where is your appreciation....? :ohno: You think democracy and freedom was always free?

Compare that with your other U.S. overseas bases and what they received, and you will see that in terms of actual dollar amounts, it's not as UNFAIR or DISCRIMINATORY like you want to make it seem. And be realistic man. Not every country is going to get EXACT amounts of help.

Seems like Philippines want not only the cake, but the cherry on top too! Sure America can give more. Just make sure you share the cake with all the filipinos first and stop the major corruption there.

Right now, the Philippine's cake is not being shared fairly.....

dinabaw

July 23rd, 2007, 03:15 AM

You think I diverted the discussion because you only have a NARROW viewpoint of the whole matter.

I talked about the U.S. bases and the ARMM because they ALL fall under the general context of ineffective military protocol throughout our ENTIRE nation.

This thread, PHILIPPINE DEFENSE FORCES, MUST understand/analyze U.S. forces and the ARMM issue and implement them into their strategic vision and mission for our nation's security. So far it has been a crap shoot. :ohno:

It's okay if you REFUSE to see the whole picture because it might be too overwhelming for you to understand. It's just that I have travelled to many places and in some ways I see that we all have a responsibilty for one another, especially when it comes to stopping the CORRUPTION in Pinas. Call me an idealist if you will, but I don't think I am. Criticizing our weaknesses, IMO, is being pragmatical because it makes us realize our weaknesses that we keep seeing with our military and security almost daily. When we can accept them within our minds and hearts, instead of denying them, I think we can make major progress. Our leadership really needs to think of ALL of us. This can only be done when they stop thinking about themselves and start thinking of our nation. It shouldn't just be seen as regional policies only, but implementing national policies for our common safety and protection.

I don't see that with the MILF/ASG/ARMM, etc. This has been demonstrated REPEATEDLY in the past and now, the latest kidnapping and beheadings only proves my point (and many other filipinos) only FURTHER.

So I don't understand fanatical/extremists muslims and the ARMM? Maybe I don't, but I definitely don't want to see continued BOMBINGS/BEHEADINGS, etc. etc. in the Philippines. Support them if you will. I won't.....

So it's okay dinabaw, think what you believe in. I will think mine.. ;)

But I do agree with you on overpriced projects and the shameful NAIA terminal fiasco... ;)

I am not refusing to see the whole picture or being narrow minded, i understand your vision " the BIG picture" , the thing is you are misleading people here
w/ your opinions . ARMM is an endeavour of both the Muslim & Christians , it was conceived to allow our brother muslims to have a "breathing space" but it also protects(interests & culture) of our fellow christian who are living w/in the area . Maybe you think ARMM government is swarmed w/ muslim personnel well christians still dominate the work force in there government offices .Even an SSC forumer designed , developed & programmed their software to help them in their economic enterprise management!
Our government even kick the a$% of Nur Misuari from embezzlement who is now languishing in jail. Even his muslim brothers denied him by not voting for him in the last election so can you point to me any governor being jailed from corruption in the Philippines? If you can travel in central mindanao , you will be awe by some of its development on it's country side ! in Datu Paglas town you can't even see stambay people, they are all working bec the governor won't let his people roaming around w/ out work . Maybe Coldillera Regions need to see ARMM to be a model Autonomous region .

TheAvenger

July 23rd, 2007, 07:27 AM

btw I guess the military offensive in Basilan will start after GMA's SONA

jgacis

July 23rd, 2007, 12:46 PM

I am not refusing to see the whole picture or being narrow minded, i understand your vision " the BIG picture" , the thing is you are misleading people here
w/ your opinions . ARMM is an endeavour of both the Muslim & Christians , it was conceived to allow our brother muslims to have a "breathing space" but it also protects(interests & culture) of our fellow christian who are living w/in the area . Maybe you think ARMM government is swarmed w/ muslim personnel well christians still dominate the work force in there government offices .Even an SSC forumer designed , developed & programmed their software to help them in their economic enterprise management!
Our government even kick the a$% of Nur Misuari from embezzlement who is now languishing in jail. Even his muslim brothers denied him by not voting for him in the last election so can you point to me any governor being jailed from corruption in the Philippines? If you can travel in central mindanao , you will be awe by some of its development on it's country side ! in Datu Paglas town you can't even see stambay people, they are all working bec the governor won't let his people roaming around w/ out work . Maybe Coldillera Regions need to see ARMM to be a model Autonomous region .

Thanks for all that info. Now we are shedding more light here... :)

My opinion is that the ARMM is a moderate islamic political body within Philipine national territory (based on our 1987 constitution). Article 10, Section 15 does provide allowance for this region....

Although not strict fundamentalists, as you point out with good examples, they do have ideological political vanguards, mainly the Abu-Sayef, MILF, etc. etc. Why do I say this? Because you don't see the ARMM proactively providing serious judicial enforcement against crimes committed by their vanguards (who are not so willing to give that "BREATHING SPACE" and "PROTECTION" of so-called FELLOW christians....).

Remember, they call themselves "AUTONOMOUS" yet they nurture the fields where these so-called "BANDITS" of yours dwell and hide, their ARMM safehaven IMO (you don't see their main headquarters in Luzon & Visayas - but you will sure see their planted bombs there..:ohno:). They kill and kidnap the rest of the filipinos of our nation and regardless if you say that happens everywhere else, by calling themselves "AUTONOMOUS" they have no right to TOLERATE attacks on our national AFP troops and kidnap/kill our civilians (like father Bossi).

When was the last time you have seen or heard ARMM leaders condemn the attacks by actually showing some sort of earnest legal action against these criminals. Hollow words of sympathy doesn't count where a region who considers themselves "AUTONOMOUS" from the rest of our country still relies on over 90% of it's revenues from the national government. How pathetic!!! :ohno:

I see your good intentions dinabaw, and we all want peace. But in my opinion, the ARMM is just "riding along" with the Philippines and enjoying it's economic growth, but NEVER with our political development and vision (read their vision and mission statement I last posted). I can guarantee you that one day, when that time comes, when the next political moves (ie. bombings/killings/etc.) come about from their vanguards (ASG, MILF, etc) the ARMM won't be there to SERIOUSLY stop them.

The ARMM are islamic moderates, bent on the secular side. Which is good. But the ASG/MILF/MNLF WILL NEVER ALLOW IT. Please know the difference between islamic moderates and islamic fundamentalists. India is a good example of muslims and hindus co-existing that perhaps you may somewhat envision in Mindanao. But they don't have "AUTONOMOUS" regions, the muslims there are more willing to be participants of a government whose majority aren't all muslims. Not so with the ARMM. When you have muslims who don't want to be part of a christian-based national government, you really need to start thinking dinabaw what this really means for our long-term relationships with each other. No matter what rosy picture you have of the ARMM, the smoking gun (the vanguards) will always be locked and loaded in the Sulu archipelago...

So let's stop dreaming...please...

I don't want to sound like I don't want peace, but let the actions of those fools speak for themselves....

If you don't believe me, then let's have another so-called "PEACETALK", then let's wait for the next bombing or kidnapping. And by the way, let's also see what the ARMM will do about it also, or not do....... :ohno:

By the way, if you think that this ARMM discussion is out of topic with the Philippine Defense Forces, IMO, that's like saying that Sunni-dominated Bagdad, Iraq has nothing to do with the Shiite rebels or the once secular warlords of Mogadishu, Somalia having nothing to do with local islamic insurgents...(Notice I give you examples of INTERNAL forces at war within these countries, BOTH places in islamic regimes that DO NOT VALUE democracy. And yes dinabaw, I'm talking about the democracy like the one we value here in our beloved Philippines!!!).

dinabaw

July 23rd, 2007, 03:51 PM

Thanks for all that info. Now we are shedding more light here... :)

My opinion is that the ARMM is a moderate islamic political body within Philipine national territory (based on our 1987 constitution). Article 10, Section 15 does provide allowance for this region....

Although not strict fundamentalists, as you point out with good examples, they do have ideological political vanguards, mainly the Abu-Sayef, MILF, etc. etc. Why do I say this? Because you don't see the ARMM proactively providing serious judicial enforcement against crimes committed by their vanguards (who are not so willing to give that "BREATHING SPACE" and "PROTECTION" of so-called FELLOW christians....).

Remember, they call themselves "AUTONOMOUS" yet they nurture the fields where these so-called "BANDITS" of yours dwell and hide, their ARMM safehaven IMO (you don't see their main headquarters in Luzon & Visayas - but you will sure see their planted bombs there..:ohno:). They kill and kidnap the rest of the filipinos of our nation and regardless if you say that happens everywhere else, by calling themselves "AUTONOMOUS" they have no right to TOLERATE attacks on our national AFP troops and kidnap/kill our civilians (like father Bossi).

When was the last time you have seen or heard ARMM leaders condemn the attacks by actually showing some sort of earnest legal action against these criminals. Hollow words of sympathy doesn't count where a region who considers themselves "AUTONOMOUS" from the rest of our country still relies on over 90% of it's revenues from the national government. How pathetic!!! :ohno:

I see your good intentions dinabaw, and we all want peace. But in my opinion, the ARMM is just "riding along" with the Philippines and enjoying it's economic growth, but NEVER with our political development and vision (read their vision and mission statement I last posted). I can guarantee you that one day, when that time comes, when the next political moves (ie. bombings/killings/etc.) come about from their vanguards (ASG, MILF, etc) the ARMM won't be there to SERIOUSLY stop them.

The ARMM are islamic moderates, bent on the secular side. Which is good. But the ASG/MILF/MNLF WILL NEVER ALLOW IT. Please know the difference between islamic moderates and islamic fundamentalists. India is a good example of muslims and hindus co-existing that perhaps you may somewhat envision in Mindanao. But they don't have "AUTONOMOUS" regions, the muslims there are more willing to be participants of a government whose majority aren't all muslims. Not so with the ARMM. When you have muslims who don't want to be part of a christian-based national government, you really need to start thinking dinabaw what this really means for our long-term relationships with each other. No matter what rosy picture you have of the ARMM, the smoking gun (the vanguards) will always be locked and loaded in the Sulu archipelago...

So let's stop dreaming...please...

I don't want to sound like I don't want peace, but let the actions of those fools speak for themselves....

If you don't believe me, then let's have another so-called "PEACETALK", then let's wait for the next bombing or kidnapping. And by the way, let's also see what the ARMM will do about it also, or not do....... :ohno:

By the way, if you think that this ARMM discussion is out of topic with the Philippine Defense Forces, IMO, that's like saying that Sunni-dominated Bagdad, Iraq has nothing to do with the Shiite rebels or the once secular warlords of Mogadishu, Somalia having nothing to do with local islamic insurgents...(Notice I give you examples of INTERNAL forces at war within these countries, BOTH places in islamic regimes that DO NOT VALUE democracy. And yes dinabaw, I'm talking about the democracy like the one we value here in our beloved Philippines!!!).

As i said ARMM is only a governing body it's function is to see that their local laws are being implemented ,leader can be booted out in the office if he is f#@ing around! (just like what happened to Nur Misuari ) but it doesn't have the "teeth" to pursue the bad elements , the Phil. Government implements the policing.
I also value the democracy that i want for my beloved Philippines , but we are wishing for a perfect place in an imperfect world.
I hope you can understand even ARMM is not the perfect solution but Mindanao did feel a sense of peace than the chaotic 70's & early 80's , if i remember it well in the 70s ,Mindanaoans only want PEACE. believe me the troubled 70's is far greater than we are experiencing right now.

we are also tired being branded as this & that , hope we can educate or reeducate Filipinos that Mindanao is not a killing field, "wild west" or a war zone. It's not only good for the Mindanoans its good for ALL Filipinos!!! Mindanao is a beautiful place & have beautiful people, a "DIAMOND in the rough".

TheAvenger

July 23rd, 2007, 11:44 PM

VIDEOS OF SONA

http://www.gmanews.tv/smallvideo/home/9460/President-Arroyo's-State-of-the-Nation-Address

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9490/Saksi-5000-Marines-in-Basilan-ready-for-battle

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9487/Saksi-15-Senators-sign-resolution-to-let-Trillanes-attend-session

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Esperon gives green light for massive strike vs Moro rebels

By Christine AvendaÃ±o, Edwin Fernandez
Mindanao Bureau
Last updated 02:55am (Mla time) 07/24/2007

MANILA, Philippines -- Armed Forces Chief of Staff General Hermogenes Esperon Jr. on Monday gave the go-ahead signal for a massive strike against Moro separatists in Basilan after the deadline passed on Sunday for the rebels to hand over those responsible for the killing of 14 Marines two weeks ago.

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/nation/view_article.php?article_id=78367

TheAvenger

July 24th, 2007, 05:30 AM

http://timawa.net/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=2c733754e3abd488b20f175f1619ad54&topic=8680.0

saver111
Member

Posts: 970

Re: were us weapons used to kill phil marines?
« Reply #1 on: Today at 10:41:47 PM »

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U.S. weapons ending up on enemy hands is a case that cannot be avoided. Many of these fundamentalist hates the U.S. very much but is very much in love with their weapons of mass destruction. Weapons of mass destruction? Yes, small arms casualties is much greater in number than those killed by bigger weapons. You might even see Israeli made weapons on the cache of these fundamentalists. War is just plain crazy business

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jgacis

July 27th, 2007, 08:25 PM

As i said ARMM is only a governing body it's function is to see that their local laws are being implemented ,leader can be booted out in the office if he is f#@ing around! (just like what happened to Nur Misuari ) but it doesn't have the "teeth" to pursue the bad elements , the Phil. Government implements the policing.
I also value the democracy that i want for my beloved Philippines , but we are wishing for a perfect place in an imperfect world.
I hope you can understand even ARMM is not the perfect solution but Mindanao did feel a sense of peace than the chaotic 70's & early 80's , if i remember it well in the 70s ,Mindanaoans only want PEACE. believe me the troubled 70's is far greater than we are experiencing right now.

we are also tired being branded as this & that , hope we can educate or reeducate Filipinos that Mindanao is not a killing field, "wild west" or a war zone. It's not only good for the Mindanoans its good for ALL Filipinos!!! Mindanao is a beautiful place & have beautiful people, a "DIAMOND in the rough".

I totally believe you when you say that Mindanaoans only want peace and it is alot more safer than the 70's.

I am only against your so-called "bandits" and the ARMM political platform that turns a blind eye among all this violence against the FEW people there. But their crimes are very horrendous, more so than the majority of filipinos would commit anywhere in the Philippines. This is because they are more organized and have an ideological cause. We need to stop them before they tarnish the reputation of not only Mindanao, but the rest of this country.

Look at this article:

U.K. warns against travel to southern Philippines

The United Kingdom on Tuesday advised its citizens against all travels around Mindanao, the southern Philippine island, following the abduction of an Italian Catholic priest and a fatal bus explosion in the region.

Travel to areas of Sulu, Basilan, Tawi-Tawi and Jolo, where anti-government groups are active, is strongly discouraged due to ongoing military and police operations against the rebels, the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office said in the travel advisory.

"Terrorist groups continue to plan attacks and have the capacity and the intent to carry out these attacks at any time and anywhere in the country," the British warning said.

It added that attacks could be indiscriminate and against civilian targets in public places including those frequented by foreigners.

British travelers were also advised to be aware of the risk of terrorist attacks to road, rail, sea and air transport in the Philippines.

Terrorists and criminal elements plan to kidnap foreign tourists from islands and coastal areas in the southern Philippines, it added.
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200706/19/eng20070619_385707.html

This is an insult not only to the Philippines, but to peace-loving Mindanoans.

Not only are foreigners scared to go there, but even filipinos from the rest of our country. This is really sad!!!

Do you see how a few small so-called "bandits" hold hostage the reputation of Mindanao to our own filipino brothers and the rest of the world? Saying we are "peaceful" Mindanoans isn't good enough....IMO. Those insurgents and their supporters need to be eliminated by Philippine Defense Forces, economic/social development, & the dissolvement of the ARMM.

TheAvenger

July 29th, 2007, 06:34 AM

Video

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/latest/9705/AFP-continues-to-beef-up-troops-in-Basilan

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http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/pic-07150810020702.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/pic-07150809410931.jpg

South quiet after Philippines suspends offensive

Agence France-Presse
Last updated 11:38am (Mla time) 07/29/2007

ZAMBOANGA, Philippines -- Tensions remained high in the troubled southern part of the country on Sunday, despite the military suspending operations against Muslim separatists accused of killing 14 marines.

A 2,000-member task force assigned to hunt down suspects linked to the killing stayed in place on Basilan island after the government halted the operations until after an investigation into the July 10 attack.

you may read further on below link :

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/nation/view_article.php?article_id=79344

.

jgacis

July 29th, 2007, 06:44 AM

^^ I think that is sending the wrong message to the killers (MILF) of those marines..... :ohno:

They could care less about an investigation..... Why do our leaders have so much backwards thinking?????

The FACT is those marines are dead because of a fightfight with the MILF (which they claim fighting with AFP troops). Is this not a good enough reason for the offensive, to protect and maintain the security of our AFP troops?

What is going on here in the Philippines????!!!! :ohno:

TheAvenger

July 29th, 2007, 06:58 AM

bitoy

July 30th, 2007, 07:39 PM

AWESOME VIDEO

hBYylsth2ms

Rajah_Soliman

July 30th, 2007, 08:17 PM

^^ ano yon plain fireworks or tutuong missiles ?

jgacis

July 30th, 2007, 09:05 PM

^^ ano yon plain fireworks or tutuong missiles ?

Rajah, those are chaff/flares being dispensed over the ocean. The plane is a C-130. I believe those are just the flares being dispensed. Used against heat-seeking missiles by diverting the plane's heat signature to the flares themselves, away from the aircraft.

I helped install those systems on C-130s when I worked for Raytheon Aerospace.

It is actually a modification program where C-130s are retro-fitted with this dispension system. Not all C-130s have this, because it depends what part of the global operational theater the aircraft has missions in. Obviously, those assigned to the middle east have these mods against SAMs (surface-to-air missiles).

TheAvenger

July 31st, 2007, 06:33 PM

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/afp.jpg

This is not the first time that the Marines have been beheaded in Basilan. Why did it happen again?

"It could have been avoided."

These are the words of some military and Basilan local government officials referring to the July 10 killing and beheading of 10 Marine soldiers and wounding of about 15 others.

Avoided, that is, if the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) has learned from past mistakes.

pl read further on the below weblink :

http://www.newsbreak.com.ph/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3527&Itemid=88889008

.

TheAvenger

July 31st, 2007, 06:39 PM

Video

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/9741/QTV-Autopsy-shows-2-Marines-tortured-before-being-killed

TheAvenger

August 1st, 2007, 06:59 PM

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/sulucamp.jpg

Adm. Timothy J. Keating, Commander, U.S. Pacific Command (PACOM) and U.S. Ambassador Kristie A. Kenney visited a former terrorist stronghold June 26 at Tugas Hill, Sulu Province to view first-hand a significant battle site in the Philippines’ fight against terrorist organizations.

The tour was part of Adm. Keating’s five-day visit to the Republic of the Philippines in his new role as PACOM Commander.

In September 2006, Abu Sayyaf terrorist leader Khadaffy Janjalani was mortally wounded at Tugas Hill in a battle with Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) personnel. Janjalani was responsible for the kidnappings and deaths of both Filipino and American citizens in the Philippines.

“Until last year, Tugas Hill was the traditional lair for the Abu Sayyaf terrorist group,” said Maj. General Ruben Rafael, Commander of AFP’s Task Force Comet. “For years our soldiers have had encounters with Abu Sayyaf until we gained control of their camp and made it our own.”

Now Tugas Hill is operated by the AFP and home to the headquarters of the 5th Marine Company, Marine Battalion Landing Team 5. It is used as a jungle training camp and as a base to launch combat patrols against the remnants of terrorist organizations still operating in the Sulu Province. “The death of Janjalani neutralized the gravity of terrorism in the Philippines,” said AFP Chief of Staff Gen. Hermogenes Esperon, Jr.

Adm. Keating and Ambassador Kenney spent an hour walking through dense jungle terrain to see the crude fighting positions that Abu Sayyaf dug into the ground. AFP personnel involved in the successful AFP operation against Janjalani described the scene for the two visitors. “This has been a spectacular visit,” said Adm. Keating. He went on to emphasize that the U.S. and AFP need to continue their efforts in denying safe haven to terrorists.

“We appreciate Adm. Keating’s visit,” said Rafael. “It shows we are making important progress here against terrorism.”

# # #

http://manila.usembassy.gov/wwwhs212.html

TheAvenger

August 5th, 2007, 09:40 AM

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/basilan.jpg

THE OFFENSIVE is on hold and the arrest warrants to the Marine killers are still unserved. But tension stretches up and down the national highway in Basilan where Marines conduct random checks of all travelers. EDWIN BACASMAS

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/marinesarrival.jpg

Philippine Marines disembark from their ship upon arrival on Saturday in Basilan to help police hunt rebels implicated in the killing of 14 Marines. AP
Toys made by Fisher-Price based on characters like Barney and Dora are being recalled in the country after the toymaker warned of lead in the paint. AP

Early reports say 12,000 evacuees in Basilan -- OCD exec

Disaster officials meeting in Zamboanga

INQUIRER.net
Last updated 01:48pm (Mla time) 08/05/2007

MANILA, Philippines -- The Office of Civil Defense (OCD) is set to validate reports that up to 12,000 people, or some 8,000 families, have evacuated their homes in Basilan province to avoid being caught in possible fighting when government forces move against the suspects in the killing of 14 Marines last July 10.

Retired general Glenn Rabonza, the OCD administrator, told radio station dzBB that the National Disaster Coordinating Council (NDCC) will be meeting with local executives and offices of line agencies from Basilan, Sulu and the Zamboanga provinces in Zamboanga City Monday “to prepare for government humanitarian intervention for these evacuees and other possible evacuees.”

However, Rabonza, speaking from Zamboanga, stressed that there has yet been no military operation launched in Basilan and that the reports on the evacuees remained “preliminary.”

you may read further on the below web link :

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/regions/view_article.php?article_id=80689

.

TheAvenger

August 5th, 2007, 10:04 AM

bitoy

August 5th, 2007, 10:56 AM

AFP admits radio error

Military probing what went wrong
By Christine Avendaño
Inquirer
Last updated 03:04am (Mla time) 08/04/2007

MANILA, Philippines—The military has launched an investigation into what went wrong and who should be held accountable for a communication error that prevented its planes from helping Marines pinned down by Moro gunmen in the July 10 ambush in Basilan.

Depending on the results of the probe, not only administrative but criminal charges as well could be filed against those responsible, the military said on Friday.

Armed Forces information chief Lt. Col. Bartolome Bacarro confirmed an Inquirer report that pilots of three aircraft sent by the Western Mindanao Command (Wesmincom) were unable to communicate with the embattled Marines on the ground because they were using different radio frequencies.

you may read further on below web link :

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view_article.php?article_id=80503

.

Some heads will roll if they find out that there was an error in frequency assignments. It only shows the lack of preparation and training of our troops if that was one of the reasons. I don't know how the AFP communication officers operate in battle but there should be a table of frequencies (alternates) that the radio officer and the base operator should follow. And if communication fails, the foot soldiers should have colored grenades to identify their locations and needs.

One can only wonder how those embattled soldiers were able to send a message for assistance to the command base.

gen1

August 5th, 2007, 12:08 PM

they use smart cell phones for communicating. funny but true.

NPAs do that too. (the bicol command uses talk n txt though).

TheAvenger

August 5th, 2007, 12:28 PM

bitoy

August 5th, 2007, 07:12 PM

they use smart cell phones for communicating. funny but true.

NPAs do that too. (the bicol command uses talk n txt though).

yes it was true.... it was in the video and/or the news account of GMA TV that the soldiers were using their own personal cellphone to call the base and their family during the heat of the battle.

I don't know what to say on that, but the personal cell phone usage could have save some lives or could be a distraction of that tragic operation.
In most, if not all military missions, personal belongings of soldiers should be left behind in the camp.

TheAvenger

August 5th, 2007, 08:22 PM

EDITORIAL
Reckless warmongering

Inquirer
Last updated 02:19am (Mla time) 08/05/2007

MANILA, Philippines—Yet again, we face a vital test of institutions. The beheading of Philippine Marines in Tipo-Tipo continues to foster a justified outrage, and keeps on producing shocking, even damning, allegations of incompetence on the part of the armed forces. First, there were questions concerning the ammunition provided the troops. Then, more recently, there emerged the equally shocking allegation that the Marines were unable to receive assistance, for lack of a common radio frequency between the men on the ground and the pilots sent to lend them air support.

you may read further on the below link :

http://opinion.inquirer.net/inquireropinion/editorial/view_article.php?article_id=80614

.

TheAvenger

August 5th, 2007, 08:30 PM

I am dismayed on our government and military on the Basilan fiasco.
The soldiers should shot all these politicians.

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/metro/view_article.php?article_id=80529

ON TARGET
Teddy Boy Locsin defends Marines

By Ramon Tulfo
Inquirer
Last updated 03:46am (Mla time) 08/04/2007

MANILA, Philippines -- Top military officials in this country don’t have delicadeza; otherwise, the top brass at the Western Mindanao Command (Wesmincom) would have resigned over the fiasco in Basilan.

Lt. Gen. Eugene Cedo, Wesmincom chief, and his deputy, Marine Brig. Gen. Juancho Sabban, continue to hold on to their posts in the face of the greatest humiliation the military suffered at the hands of the enemy.

“They have no sense of shame, Mon,” said a military officer whose identity I will withhold for obvious reasons.

If Cedo and Sabban were with the Japanese Imperial Army they would have committed seppuku (suicide) out of shame.

Well, this is not Japan. This is the Philippines where some government officials rob the people blind and can still show their faces in public. Many of these thieves even get reelected.

***

There is an anecdote about the sense of responsibility of Japanese officials.
Many years ago, a Japanese policeman in a small town raped a housewife while he was patrolling his beat.
The cop’s immediate superior resigned and so did the officials in the higher echelons.
The offending cop’s superiors felt remorse and shame over the incident.
If the rape of the housewife happened in the Philippines, the cop’s superiors would even back him up and say she deserved to be raped for getting in his way while he was doing his rounds.

* * *

A similar thing happened on the floor of the House of Representatives Tuesday when Basilan Rep. Wahab Akbar practically said that the Marines who were ambushed and then mutilated deserved their fate because they ventured into the territory of the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF).

Akbar, a former member of the Abu Sayyaf, said the Marines should have coordinated with local officials before the men entered MILF territory.

Only Rep. Teodoro “Teddy Boy” Locsin of Makati came to the defense of the Marines, intimating that Akbar was calling on the government to respect “liberated zones.”

Even Muntinlupa Rep. Ruffy Biazon, son of Sen. Rodolfo Biazon, a retired Marine general and former Armed Forces chief, was patronizing toward Akbar.

Interpellating Akbar, Biazon said the “AFP chain of command [sent] these troops into an area where they should have coordinated first. But apparently, they failed to do that.”

Replying to Akbar’s tirade against the Armed Forces, Locsin commented, “The tameness of the questions asked [of Akbar] on this floor and in this Chamber shows that if there is one institution that no soldier should fight for or shed his blood, it is this House. And I hope that the Army has listened today, to the deafening silence of this House in the defense of the greatest institution of the Republic.”

Either the other members of the House were afraid of the Moros or they had a very low regard for the military.

* * *

The newest member of the Supreme Court, Ruben Reyes, committed a sin of omission while he was at the Court of Appeals as presiding justice.
Reyes failed to bust the so-called “Dirty Dozen” syndicate at the appellate court whose members sold cases or temporary restraining orders.
He knew who those justices were, according to inside sources at the appellate court.

TheAvenger

August 5th, 2007, 08:42 PM

By Ramon Tulfo
Inquirer
Last updated 03:34am (Mla time) 08/02/2007

Moro rebels are probably laughing themselves hoarse, up to now, after policemen trying to serve warrants on many of them in Basilan Tuesday went home empty-handed.

The cops, armed to the teeth and backed up by 5,000 or so Marines and Army troops, were sent to the camp of the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) near the scene of the ambush two weeks ago.

How could the government expect to arrest MILF rebels who beheaded and mutilated the dead Marines when it vacillated in taking immediate action against the perpetrators?

The perpetrators were given more than enough time to escape. They probably merged with the local populace or are now hiding in other provinces.

The soldiers, who wanted to avenge the deaths of their comrades, are demoralized.

Nagmukhang tanga ang mga sundalo.

* * *
My military sources in Basilan are wondering why the government has not confronted Rep. Wahab Akbar, former Basilan governor, on the alleged participation of his men in the ambush and beheading.

Two of Akbar’s men were included in the warrant of arrest, but they are not members of the MILF or the Abu Sayyaf as the government claims.

No Abu Sayyaf bandit took part in the ambush and mutilation, according to my sources.

The MILF allegedly conspired with Akbar’s men in ambushing the Marines, but reportedly left it to the men of the political kingpin to do the job of finishing off the prostrate soldiers, some of whom were still alive.

* * *

How come there is no investigation of the allegation in this column, quoting sources in Basilan, that a top honcho at Western Mindanao Command (Wesmincom) ordered the planes and helicopters sent to reinforce the beleaguered Marines back to base?

Intramurals within the Philippine Marine Corps allegedly caused the fiasco in Basilan.

The top Wesmincom officer also is allegedly a close friend of Akbar. He probably was called by Akbar on the phone and told to hold off the air support.

Is the Armed Forces afraid to conduct the investigation because it might open a can of worms?

* * *

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/metro/view_article.php?article_id=80086

midwestguy1

August 5th, 2007, 10:58 PM

TheAvenger

August 6th, 2007, 01:44 AM

Good Lord, there is nothing new to this. High ranking officials influencing different branches of the military. Friends with benefits in the polical and military arena don't mix very well, it affects the progress in the Philippines.

influencing other branches of military that results to the death and beheading of our soldiers is unforgiveable and those involve should be tried for treasons and shot by a firing squad.

dinabaw

August 6th, 2007, 03:15 AM

well i remember the British Cavalry in Calatrava...too many leaders made it a BAD decision.

TheAvenger

August 6th, 2007, 01:40 PM

From a retired AFP General :

By Ramon J. Farolan
Inquirer
Last updated 02:44am (Mla time) 08/06/2007

MANILA, Philippines -- As an ordinary citizen of this country, having retired from the Armed Forces many years ago, I am appalled and deeply saddened by the incompetence and inaction of our military leaders in the face of the recent Basilan tragedy. Two weeks after the massacre and savage mutilation of our soldiers, nothing has happened that would indicate our seriousness in dealing with the incident.

Whatever happened to the much-talked-about AFP offensive?

yopu may read further on below web link :

http://opinion.inquirer.net/inquireropinion/columns/view_article.php?article_id=80781

TheAvenger

August 6th, 2007, 02:04 PM

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/marines6th.jpg

VICTORY OR PEACE? A Marine flashes the sign symbolizing either peace or victory as he and a battalion of soldiers arrive at the Lamitan port in Basilan province. INQUIRER/EDWIN BACASMAS

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10055/Arroyo-sends-doctors-to-set-up-medical-clinics-in-Basilan

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10031/Women-to-campaign-vs-Basilan-operation

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10030/Witness-protection-mulled-for-Basilan-ambush-witnesses

TheAvenger

August 6th, 2007, 06:43 PM

By Joel Guinto, Julie Alipala
INQUIRER.net, Inquirer
Last updated 10:17pm (Mla time) 08/06/2007

MANILA, Philippines -- For the first time since security forces mounted "punitive police action" against those responsible for the July 10 Basilan carnage late last week, Marine troops encountered Abu Sayyaf suspects late Monday afternoon, according to military reports.

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/regions/view_article.php?article_id=80935

TheAvenger

August 6th, 2007, 07:04 PM

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10066/Saksi-JI-plot-to-bomb-malls-in-Metro-Manila-foiled

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10068/Saksi-CHR-blocks-plan-to-arm-MMDA-enforcers-with-bolos

TheAvenger

August 9th, 2007, 11:40 PM

Video links :

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10220/Suspect-in-beheading-of-Marines-surrenders

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10228/Saksi-Women-Army-reservists-join-beauty-pageant

--------------------------------------------------

19 soldiers killed, 12 hurt after ambush by Abus in Sulu

By Joel Guinto
INQUIRER.net
Last updated 11:54pm (Mla time) 08/09/2007

MANILA, Philippines -- (UPDATE 2) Ten soldiers were killed while 10 others were wounded after Philippine Army troops clashed with suspected Abu Sayyaf extremists in Sulu on Thursday afternoon, the Army commander in the island province said.

This brought to at least 19 the number of soldiers killed, and 12, the number of wounded, in engagements between the al Qaeda-linked extremists and government forces on Thursday.

At least one Abu Sayyaf rebel was killed in the encounter in Maimbung town, along with the reported son of an Abu Sayyaf commander, who was caught in the crossfire, said Army Colonel Mark Antonio Supnet, chief of the 104th Infantry Brigade.

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/regions/view_article.php?article_id=81629

---------------------------------------------------------

UPDATE 4) Suspect in Marine beheadings surrenders

Arabic teacher decries inclusion in warrant

By Julie Alipala, Joel Guinto
INQUIRER.net, Inquirer
Last updated 02:27pm (Mla time) 08/09/2007

MANILA, Philippines -- A suspect in the beheading of Marine troops in Basilan province has surrendered, local and police officials in the southern Philippines said.

The suspect, Buhari Jamiri, turned himself in to a GMA television news team in Limbu Upas, Tipo-Tipo town at around 6:30 a.m., Chief Superintendent Joel Goltiao, Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao police director, and Senior Superintendent Salik Macapantar, Basilan police director, confirmed

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/regions/view_article.php?article_id=81517

Skyblade

August 10th, 2007, 04:37 AM

it was in the video and/or the news account of GMA TV that the soldiers were using their own personal cellphone to call the base and their family during the heat of the battle.
On the topic of soldiers utilizing cell phones while in combat, I dug up this article from one of my old blogs. A sad story, indeed. :(

Text from battlefield: We've been ambushed ... Pray for me
Posted 04:25am (Mla time) Feb 15, 2005
By Job Belen
Inquirer News Service

TABACO CITY, Albay, Philippines -- At 9:16 a.m. on Feb. 8, a Tuesday, Marine 1st Lieutenant Reynaldo Ricalde called his sister Michelle and said he and his men had been ambushed but that he had only suffered abrasions.

Minutes later, he texted her and said: "Ipangadyi na sana nindo ako, bantayan si Mama saka si Jet-Jet (I hope you pray for me, take care of Mama and Jet-Jet)."

Jet-Jet, 10, is Ricalde's youngest of four siblings.

The following day, a message came from Camp Gen. Simeon Ola informing the Ricalde family that the 29-year-old lieutenant had died and extending the Armed Forces leadership's condolences.

Love for soldiery

Ricalde was among some 30 soldiers who have been killed in the eight-day-old fighting on Jolo Island between the military and Moro guerrillas.

A 1998 graduate of Bicol University and a licensed electrical engineer, Ricalde really wanted to become a soldier, said Michelle, 23.

"Even though he had already passed the board exams for engineers, he
joined the Army training in Tanay, Rizal, for several months but unfortunately he was not enlisted," the sister said.

Undeterred, Ricalde got into the Navy and was assigned to the Marines.

Military dreams

The eldest son of Jose and Sonia Ricalde graduated valedictorian from the Pawa Elementary School in this city and showed his bent for soldiery early.

He was corps commander of the Citizens Army Training in high school and held the same post in college when he took up the Reserved Officers Training Course (ROTC).

After completing ROTC, he took an advance military course, bent on going into military service.

Marietta Sanchez, who was Ricalde's Grade 5 teacher, described him as a responsible although silent schoolboy. She particularly remembered his legible handwriting.

'Happy birthday, sis'

Two days before his unit came under attack on Jolo, Ricalde made sure to get in touch with Michelle to wish her a happy birthday.

Family members said the AFP leadership had recommended that Ricalde be buried at the Libingan ng mga Bayani in Makati City, but they preferred that his remains be brought to the family residence here.

The body of the young lieutenant was to be flown to Legazpi City by military plane today.

bitoy

August 10th, 2007, 04:51 AM

^^ A sad story indeed and that last words from a dying man would last forever on his family.

beads_strawberries

August 10th, 2007, 05:52 AM

^^ I thought this was recent news. Anyway, the recent ambush of the Abu Sayyaf Group in Sulu seemed to inflict anger to our soldiers. Maybe our soldiers are just waiting for orders to wage an all-out war. I'd like to think they are more than willing with that than be still with all those ambushes.

My condolences to the bereaved families of our fallen soldiers. These soldiers have sacrificed their lives for us.

zeejay

August 10th, 2007, 05:58 AM

About 20 Army soldiers died yesterday in the ambush slash encounter with the Abu Sayaff rebels in Sulu. Early morning there were only 9 reported dead but later during the day the total summed up to 19 when an encounter finally ensued. One of the fatalities happens to be a young officer who just got his assignment less than two months ago after some more months of final training after a month-long vacation. He spent four years away from his family to enter the academy and with just a month of vacation to be with his loved ones after graduation.

Lately, there were a lot of ambush incidents that happened. First the Marines versus the MILF and recently the Army against the Abu Sayaff. I could not say any other sentiment but that of anger and hatred towards the rebels. It's time to finsih them off since it is obvious that they have regained strength after some years of laying low after defeat.

IsaRic

August 10th, 2007, 07:19 AM

On the topic of soldiers utilizing cell phones while in combat, I dug up this article from one of my old blogs. A sad story, indeed. :(

Text from battlefield: We've been ambushed ... Pray for me
Posted 04:25am (Mla time) Feb 15, 2005
By Job Belen
Inquirer News Service

TABACO CITY, Albay, Philippines -- At 9:16 a.m. on Feb. 8, a Tuesday, Marine 1st Lieutenant Reynaldo Ricalde called his sister Michelle and said he and his men had been ambushed but that he had only suffered abrasions.

Minutes later, he texted her and said: "Ipangadyi na sana nindo ako, bantayan si Mama saka si Jet-Jet (I hope you pray for me, take care of Mama and Jet-Jet)."

Jet-Jet, 10, is Ricalde's youngest of four siblings.

The following day, a message came from Camp Gen. Simeon Ola informing the Ricalde family that the 29-year-old lieutenant had died and extending the Armed Forces leadership's condolences.

Love for soldiery

Ricalde was among some 30 soldiers who have been killed in the eight-day-old fighting on Jolo Island between the military and Moro guerrillas.

A 1998 graduate of Bicol University and a licensed electrical engineer, Ricalde really wanted to become a soldier, said Michelle, 23.

"Even though he had already passed the board exams for engineers, he
joined the Army training in Tanay, Rizal, for several months but unfortunately he was not enlisted," the sister said.

Undeterred, Ricalde got into the Navy and was assigned to the Marines.

Military dreams

The eldest son of Jose and Sonia Ricalde graduated valedictorian from the Pawa Elementary School in this city and showed his bent for soldiery early.

He was corps commander of the Citizens Army Training in high school and held the same post in college when he took up the Reserved Officers Training Course (ROTC).

After completing ROTC, he took an advance military course, bent on going into military service.

Marietta Sanchez, who was Ricalde's Grade 5 teacher, described him as a responsible although silent schoolboy. She particularly remembered his legible handwriting.

'Happy birthday, sis'

Two days before his unit came under attack on Jolo, Ricalde made sure to get in touch with Michelle to wish her a happy birthday.

Family members said the AFP leadership had recommended that Ricalde be buried at the Libingan ng mga Bayani in Makati City, but they preferred that his remains be brought to the family residence here.

The body of the young lieutenant was to be flown to Legazpi City by military plane today.

can you give me a link of the article?

coacozambo92

August 10th, 2007, 07:58 AM

Hello forumers, I would like to get my impression in a long battle of rebellion, political warfare, etc.
Everybody understand that our country need a strong reliable AFP. Then why we bow to much on US junks weaponry? We have wide seas to guard against smugglers, Muslim Extremism, and even well organized syndicate including those communist rebels. We need a reliable and fearsome navy to combat this and provide a respectfull organization. So now we have our rotten SHIPS? AIRCRAFT? anything else?
We are the lowest rank navy in ASIA.. Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Burma, etc. have missle boats, or a real navy to fear.. Never mention our closest neighboor baka masaktan tayo lalo.

The only solution here is look for other source that we can buy or beg for goods.. Russia and China are just out there.. Our AFP must shift to that country armaments. We can acquire Missle Guided Fast Craft from Russia or China.. even second hand okay na compaired sa mga binigay ng US sa atin na??? ewan ko ba.
In young years, I have my youthfull years near AFP Naval base in Zamboanga City.. I see old junk Navy ships na hanggat pag laki ko eh buhay pa rin.. naman naman...
Go to Vietnam, baka pwede nating bilhin yung pinag lumaan ng Russia sa kanila.. Naku!!! ayos na ayos sana.. Sa mga Anti Aircraft MIssles pwede rin tayong mag karoon.. Bakit kaya? Are we a weakling Republic dahil hinahayaan nating MAHINA ang ating AFP dahil din sa mga aktibista at Simbahan? Baguhin naman natin sana ang ganitong pangyayari masyado na kasi tayong maka US!!!!

cruizer333444

August 10th, 2007, 09:28 AM

america is broke, thats all we can expect from them, junk weaponry

Skyblade

August 10th, 2007, 09:34 AM

can you give me a link of the article?

Unfortunately I didn't save the link when I posted it in my blog a couple years ago. The best I could pull up is a link to the Timawa.net thread (http://timawa.net/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=293e0fbe37e1b7ae9fd3137ab8c12be3&topic=2385.0) where I got it from. Sorry. :(

gen1

August 10th, 2007, 10:43 AM

nah, I don't think the stuff the good ole yanks give us are junk. surplus, with some dating back to the vietnam war, but certainly not unusable.

Age really has less bearing when talking about well built machines and armaments..

For example, still the preferred sniping weapon of many pinoy soldiers is the 1950's vintage M14. Old, that's an affirm. Junk, heck no.

TheAvenger

August 11th, 2007, 11:13 AM

First batch of military backup arrives in Sulu
08/11/2007 | 12:48 PM

The first batch of military backup arrived on Saturday in Sulu province to reinforce actions against terrorist group Abu Sayyaf and rogue elements of the Moro National Liberation Front (MNLF).

“We are pursuing, we are continuing with our operations to be able to cordon (off) and finally destroy the Abu Sayyaf. We are pressing with our operations, we are continuing with our operations," said Army spokesman Lt. Col. Ernesto Torres.

Torres said the first group of reinforcement composed of one company – or about 120 men - is part of the Army battalion being sent to Sulu to augment forces in the area. Another Army battalion from Luzon will be sent soon to the island-province.

“On the part of the Army, we are sending to Sulu one battalion from Visayas and another battalion from Luzon. We are not identifying the battalions for operations reasons, it may create operational vacuum in the areas," said Torres.

you may read further on below link :

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/55486/First-batch-of-military-backup-arrives-in-Sulu

------------------------------------------------------
Video Links :

http://www.gmanews.tv/smallvideo/home/10279/Int'l-Women's-Peace-Mission-delegates-arrive-in-Basilan

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10255/Death-toll-in-Sulu-battles-has-passed-50

TheAvenger

August 11th, 2007, 11:56 AM

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/noel/pic-08110512340679.jpg

THE PRICE OF WAR. The bodies of the Army soldiers who were killed in an ambush in Indanan, Jolo temporarily lie in state at a gymnasium inside the Western Mindanao Command camp in Zamboanga City. INQUIRER/EDWIN BACASMAS

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/noel/pic-08110513330881.jpg

SCARRED. An injured soldier disembarks from the C130 military plane in Edwin Andrews Airbase in Zamboanga City. INQUIRER/EDWIN BACASMAS

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/noel/pic-08110605040315.jpg

HEARTBREAK DUTY. Army soldiers carry the casket of a fallen comrade being accorded military honors at the Western Mindanao Command headquarters in Zamboanga City. CONTRIBUTED PHOTO

Arroyo sends 4,000 soldiers to hunt Abus

By Christine Avendaño, Julie Alipala
Inquirer
Last updated 02:58am (Mla time) 08/11/2007

MANILA, Philippines—A month after 10 Marines were beheaded, government forces suffered some of their heaviest casualties in decades—26 dead—in clashes with Moro guerrillas in Sulu that prompted demands from Congress for the military to explain why they were being clobbered in the battlefield.

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view_article.php?article_id=81856

TheAvenger

August 11th, 2007, 12:02 PM

By Cynthia Balana
Inquirer
Last updated 05:35pm (Mla time) 08/11/2007

MANILA, Philippines -- Armed Forces Chief of Staff Hermogenes Esperon on Saturday said that troop casualties were "realities" in a war against terror although he acknowledged that the 26 soldiers killed in a series of clashes with Abu Sayyaf members that began on August 2 in Sulu were too many.

Interviewed by Vice President Noli De Castro on his radio program, "Para sa Iyo, Bayan," Esperon clarified that the 26 deaths did not occur on a single day as earlier reported.

He said there were also 30 dead on the Abu Sayyaf side based on radio transmissions intercepted by the military although only three bodies were retrieved from the encounter sites.

Asked why the troops were incurring heavy casualties despite the high cost of maintaining them, Esperon replied, "Dahil po may giyera. Nagbubuwis ng buhay ang ating mga kasundaluhan. Lumalaban iyan kahit may kakulangan. Hindi po kami naglalaro lang dito (Because there is a war. Our soldiers are giving up their lives. They fight even though they lack equipment. We are not playing games)."

You may read further on below link :

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/nation/view_article.php?article_id=81942

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/noel/pic-08110202500618.jpg

.

coacozambo92

August 11th, 2007, 12:18 PM

TheAvenger

August 11th, 2007, 12:28 PM

This ambush is the result of how and what kind of Military Exercises are we doing with the US of A. My gush amigos, the US of A are playing us. How many times do we conduct miltary exercises with US of A? In Jolo? In Basilan? Their aim is to increase our capability in combating what? Then it happen like this... Hell the Americans... do you think they did not teach our AFP in dealing with ambush??? Holy cow.. I feel so bad when I see our soldiers dying due to ambush.. Forma lang ba ang pinapakita natin sa kanila? That's the reason of over confedence. I have a lot of soldier friends in Malagutay, Zamboanga City. Yes, they told me that in ambush it's like playing pusoy 2 or malas swerte. But we have chance to beat the ambush if we go undetected or no showing like movie stars.
Masyadong kayabangan na kasi. Our soldiers must better be send to SOCIALIST REPUBLIC OF VIETNAM and do a military training on this basic doctrine to defeat enemy. STOP AMERICAN IDEOLOGY. Let this be a leason... we must really our soldiers to the true warriors of asia. The highly skilled with strong fighting spirit... no other than..... Vietnamese Army.
So painfull to see our soldier dying in the common warfare.. how about their family... oh my what a sad... we symphatized with their family.. This MILF or Abus are trained in their backyard so it's a shame to be defeated with this organization. Masyado ng binababoy ang kahinaan ng ating Republika.

Guerilla warfare can be won only by winning the heart and minds of the people, plus do some covert / guerilla operations also... by a highly trained commandos which will be detached from the service while the operations is going on, in order to be not caught on the act by anyone, that we are violating the Geneva Convention on Warfare. It must be a secret operations that only one top military leaders should lead and not known even by the usual Military hierachy nor by any polticians except the President.

Of course these highly trained covert commandos must know all the dialects in the Western Mindanao, Basilan, and Tawi Tawi area, and also if they were Christians they must temporarily joined Islam, in order to better blend with the sorroundings. I will call this alternatives as the Devil's Alternatives.

It must be pattern just like the Operation Jabidah..... during the Marcos era.

TheAvenger

August 11th, 2007, 10:06 PM

Arroyo orders Army chief to lead offensive vs Abu

By Juliet Labog-Javellana, Cynthia Balana
Inquirer
Last updated 01:30am (Mla time) 08/12/2007

MANILA, Philippines—Talking tough but leaving room for peace, President Macapagal-Arroyo on Saturday ordered that the Army headquarters be moved from Fort Bonifacio to Zamboanga City and sent its chief, Lt. Gen. Romeo Tolentino, to personally lead military operations against the extremist Abu Sayyaf.

“I have ordered Army Commanding General Romeo Tolentino to the front lines, to help oversee the theater of operations and to be nearer to my soldiers,” Ms Arroyo said in her third statement since Friday night on the death of 26 soldiers in Sulu.

“The Army [headquarters] will now be temporarily set up in the [Western Mindanao Command] in Zamboanga until the situation normalizes,” she said, adding:

You may read further on the below Link.

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view_article.php?article_id=81971

.

IsaRic

August 11th, 2007, 10:19 PM

TheAvenger

August 11th, 2007, 10:39 PM

^^ ^^ ^^

I agreed ......... :) :)

midwestguy1

August 12th, 2007, 05:12 AM

This ambush is the result of how and what kind of Military Exercises are we doing with the US of A. My gush amigos, the US of A are playing us. How many times do we conduct miltary exercises with US of A? In Jolo? In Basilan? Their aim is to increase our capability in combating what? Then it happen like this... Hell the Americans... do you think they did not teach our AFP in dealing with ambush??? Holy cow.. I feel so bad when I see our soldiers dying due to ambush.. Forma lang ba ang pinapakita natin sa kanila? That's the reason of over confedence. I have a lot of soldier friends in Malagutay, Zamboanga City. Yes, they told me that in ambush it's like playing pusoy 2 or malas swerte. But we have chance to beat the ambush if we go undetected or no showing like movie stars.
Masyadong kayabangan na kasi. Our soldiers must better be send to SOCIALIST REPUBLIC OF VIETNAM and do a military training on this basic doctrine to defeat enemy. STOP AMERICAN IDEOLOGY. Let this be a leason... we must really our soldiers to the true warriors of asia. The highly skilled with strong fighting spirit... no other than..... Vietnamese Army.
So painfull to see our soldier dying in the common warfare.. how about their family... oh my what a sad... we symphatized with their family.. This MILF or Abus are trained in their backyard so it's a shame to be defeated with this organization. Masyado ng binababoy ang kahinaan ng ating Republika.

Isn't it that even before the US troops came back to the Philippines, there were already clashes between Abu Sayaf groups and the Philippine forces? How about the Abu Sayaf organize bombing all over the philippine before the US troops came over? Davao International airport bombing? Zamboanga bombing and then every where in Manila. Then you also look into kidnappings of foreign tourists in the Philippines that was left and right at the time.. How can we blame it to the American these mess we are facing in the Philippines?? Doesn't it because the Muslim brothers has been fighting for their own cost and then somehow with the kidnapping it almost end up looking like it's more of gang type of group because they ask for ransom for their own use and not to support the Muslim Mindanao nation?

coacozambo92

August 12th, 2007, 06:10 AM

That's why we need to re align the training of our military. I have been staying with our soldiers in Zamboanga City since our house is near Lower Calarian. I am saddened that our soldiers are really poor in tactics. How many times they fail? Look! An ambush is a normal way in hitting an ememy with a close accuracy but how come our soldiers cannot get that point? Yes they told me that we have traitors in our organization... (it's true!!!!). Our way of formation in defence is also weak according to them even they have supperior firepower than the MILF or others.. overconfedence is the cause of cultural supremacy. PAYABANGAN KASI... a true warrior is silent and simple.
The American are teaching our military since 1900 and this causes our surprise defeat against the Japanese.. my gush we should learn lesson.The truth is that the more reliable to train us are our neighbor. We have rotten system that tied the hands of our soldiers. They want to kill but they are blind folded by our human rights group including the so called civil society. What the hell, this group are disgracing our soldiers... they making our AFP coward.. I am Mindanaoan and I want peace!!! How can we attain peace if since 1700 we never see victory against this group? We are not people of Luzon of just smilling and seating in their comfortable living but doing their move as if they control the situation in Mindanao.
I have a bad experience in bombing too... That was in 1989 in Fort Pillar shrine, a bomb exploded near our location.. unfortunately the son of our family friend was hit by a sharpenel to his small body.. luckily his heart where not hit directly.. yes he is now abnormal.. half of his body is affected. I hate their traitor moves... I almost ask gush!!! Why are we Christian? Are Christian GAYS??? or COWARDS??? Who make us COWARDS???? Why we accept that we are weak??? Remember forumers since 1700... up to present, we are still facing the delima of fear.
I am hoping that our SOLDIERS will stand up ang modernise in the most capable system... LET THE AMERICANS BOLT OUT OF OUR MILITARY'S DOCTRINE.. SHIFT TO RUSSIA OR CHINA.. LET US REARMED THEMSELF AND REDOCTRINED OUR AFP IN ORIENTAL WAY!!

TheAvenger

August 12th, 2007, 06:44 AM

TheAvenger

August 12th, 2007, 06:52 AM

Isn't it that even before the US troops came back to the Philippines, there were already clashes between Abu Sayaf groups and the Philippine forces? How about the Abu Sayaf organize bombing all over the philippine before the US troops came over? Davao International airport bombing? Zamboanga bombing and then every where in Manila. Then you also look into kidnappings of foreign tourists in the Philippines that was left and right at the time.. How can we blame it to the American these mess we are facing in the Philippines?? Doesn't it because the Muslim brothers has been fighting for their own cost and then somehow with the kidnapping it almost end up looking like it's more of gang type of group because they ask for ransom for their own use and not to support the Muslim Mindanao nation?

We can also blame the American for using Christian Filipino in their War of Pacification in Mindanao and Sulu, which lead later to hatred and enmity of our Muslim brother to the Philippine government and the mainstream Philippine society.

MARTYRS OF THE BATTLE OF BUD BAGSAK

Bud Bagsak is a mountain in Northern Jolo. There, hundreds of 500 Moro men, women, and children gathered and built a stone fort during the first months of 1913.

On June 11, the American military attacked. The Muslim led by their Nakil Amil bravely defended their fort, first with guns and bullets and knives and bolos. But, after four days, Bud Bagsak, along with every warrior, woman, and child, fell.
Date of Martyr's Death: June 15, 1913

MARTYRS OF THE BATTLE OF BUD DAJO

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/buddajo.jpg

When the American military went to Jolo, a large group of Tausug families immediately defied their rule by refusing to pay taxes. The Tausug

The Americans, under Governor Leonard Wood, decided to attack their settlement. The battle lasted for three days in early 1906. At the end of the battle, more than 600 men, women, and children were killed.
Date of the Martyr's Death: March 7, 1906

http://msc.edu.ph/centennial/hero/armm/page10.html

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U.S. Massacre of Filipino Muslims at Bud Bagsak in Jolo

JUNE 11-15, 1913
With this battle, the organized resistance of the Moros was broken and the episode of "Kris versus Krag" came virtually to an end. There were a few more minor battles, but never again did the Moros place a formidable force in the field against the Americans. The Mohammedans fought a grand fight at Bagsak against superior weapons. They showed the Americans, as they had showed the Spaniards, that they were not afraid to die. Inset black and white photo shows U.S. troops displaying the severed head of a Muslim victim of the massacre.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/bud_bagsak_massacre2.jpg

It seems the US Cavalry started this beheading practice in the South.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/army_poster.jpg

Pls click the below website abouth the massacre in Bud Bagsak
www.lazamboangatimes.com/main_page.html[/url]

Likewise our government soldier especially the Phil Marines who died fighting and beheaded in Basilan and other battlegrounds in Mindanao and Sulu were our Martyrs and Heroes.

It is ironic that we are fighting a war started by our former colonizers, the Spaniards and the Americans.

.

TheAvenger

August 12th, 2007, 08:07 AM

The presenrt problems in the south was the result of our colonizers policy and war of pacification.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/budbagsal.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/bagsak2.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/bagsak3.jpg

http://www.bangsamoro.info/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=9&cid=3

Since the American have done those atrocities which lead to present never ending war in Mindanao, Sulu and Basilan, then I think they have to help us to resolve this centuries-old problems. The Americans should provide funds for the development of that region to win their hearts and minds, and military equipments and supplies to our Armed Forces to annihilate those who wants to established a separate republic
.

bitoy

August 12th, 2007, 04:21 PM

The presenrt problems in the south was the result of our colonizers policy and war of pacification.

With those things happening in the south, it surely lead to that conclusion. No more of that "What If" we were never colonized by other nations.

Since the American have done those atrocities which lead to present never ending war in Mindanao, Sulu and Basilan, then I think they have to help us to resolve this centuries-old problems. The Americans should provide funds for the development of that region to win their hearts and minds, and military equipments and supplies to our Armed Forces to annihilate those who wants to established a separate republic
.

America has been doing that for quite some time. There are just a lot of things that are needed to be resolved first before gaining the hearts and minds of everyone. Even the local citizens don't trust our government, what more on trusting another foreign policy maker.

coacozambo92

August 12th, 2007, 04:43 PM

TheAvenger

August 12th, 2007, 05:22 PM

With those things happening in the south, it surely lead to that conclusion. No more of that "What If" we were never colonized by other nations.

America has been doing that for quite some time. There are just a lot of things that are needed to be resolved first before gaining the hearts and minds of everyone. Even the local citizens don't trust our government, what more on trusting another foreign policy maker.

Oh what I mean is that they provide funds to our government so that our government can develop their regons and provide livelihood to them, which will helps us win their hearts and mind.

TheAvenger

August 12th, 2007, 05:41 PM

Then, why in our History book never mentioned this Jolo Tragedy? Mas pinakita pa ng mga Filipino Historian yung kay BONIFACIO, atp.. puro taga LUZON yung sikat. Aba dito ngayon natin nakita ang pagkakaisa ng isang grupo na hindi kayang gayahin ng mga Kristyano? Bakit?

why ? because during the commonwealth period we are not independent yet and the historian were controlled by the American government, so what really happens was not included in the Philippine History books.

Even the revolts of Sacay was twisted to make him a tulisan and not another hero who fights the colonizer. Even the nearly a million Filipiinos killed during the Filipino - American War was not mentioned in history book before. When I was in the High School and College, I did not even see the story of Balangiga Massacre in Samar in 1900s in the history book.

Likewise I want to counter the propaganda of the rebels from MILF that they were of separate nation, a Bangsa Moro hence they should be given independence. No they were not separate nations from the rest of the Phuilippine Archipelago because of the fact that before the Spaniards arrived in our shore, Manila was a Muslim Suiltanate under Raja Soliman. And the Tagalog region and the Visayas was also of Muslim faith. It means that before the Spaniards arriver in the Philippines our archipelago was of one race and of one group. Of course it is difficult to say we are of one nation if we based on the modern definition of a Nation.

I just hope that our moderator here or the former ASF moderator will not brand me as Anti-American when I posted some missing details in our country's history. Our younger generations should know the real truth of what happenned in the past so that all this enmity between Muslim and Christians in our country will be better understood. And later the ill-feeling and prejudiced between the two can be resolved and forgotten.

That is the only way we can have a unified country. Meantime I enjoined the Muslim and Christian to learn to trust each other since our forefathers did not intend this to happen, the never ending war between brother Filipinos of different faith.

TheAvenger

August 12th, 2007, 06:08 PM

By Joel Guinto
INQUIRER.net
Last updated 05:12pm (Mla time) 08/12/2007

JOLO, Sulu--Army chief Lieutenant General Romeo Tolentino is confident that he can comply with President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo's order to normalize the situation in this southern island province in 10 days, two days ahead of his retirement.

Tolentino, who will retire on August 24 when he turns 56, moved his staff to the Western Mindanao Command headquarters in Zamboanga City upon orders of President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo.

This after 26 soldiers and 32 Abu Sayyaf and rogue Moro National Liberation Front (MNLF) rebels were killed in four clashes from August 7 to 9 in Parang, Indanan, and Maimbung towns in this southern island province.

"Siguro for a time lang ito [Maybe this will last only for a time]," Tolentino said, adding, "The rule of law must prevail. For me, [I can do it in] 10 days."

You may read further on the below link :

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/regions/view_article.php?article_id=82078

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FRESH TROOPS. JOLO, Sulu--Fresh from Roxas City in Capiz, soldiers from the Army's 15th Infantry Battalion will reinforce troops in this island province, bringing to around 4,000 the number of soldiers running after the al Qaeda-linked Abu Sayyaf. INQUIRER.NET/JOEL GUINTO

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GEARING FOR WAR. Elements of the Marine Battalion Landing Team 11 under Lt. Colonel Nathaniel Casem proceeding to Panamao town. Troops are on alert after the heavy encounters in the areas of the Philippine Army in Maimbung and Parang towns. INQUIRER MINDANAO/JULIE S. ALIPALA

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/weareready.jpg

WE ARE READY: Bangsamoro Women of Sulu say they are ready to defend their ranks. Private Astor Potoy Jr of the 33rd Infantry Battalion confirmed to the Philippine Daily Inquirer that women were involved in the Barangay (village) Tambaking, Maimbung encounter on August 9, 2007 that left 15 enlisted personnel and one officer dead. The photo was taken April 2007 at the Barangay Bwansa, Indanan town when Special Forces and Scout Rangers "accidentally penetrated" the territory of Lupah Sug State Revolutionary Chairman Ustadz Khaid Adjibun. INQUIRER MINDANAO/JULIE S. ALIPALA

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/luwaran.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/Basilan-1.jpg

ISABELA CITY, Basilan – Bright green mangroves dot the coastline of Basilan, the site of the July 10 beheadings of 10 Marines, when viewed from up in the air on board a UH-1H helicopter. INQUIRER.NET/JOEL GUINTO

TheAvenger

August 12th, 2007, 07:16 PM

EDITORIAL
Fire the generals

Inquirer
Last updated 04:36am (Mla time) 08/12/2007

MANILA, Philippines—War, the Prussian guru of strategy Clausewitz famously wrote, is merely the continuation of politics by other means. Under our system of government, the president is commander in chief, regardless of whether or not he or she has any military experience at all. The role the armed forces plays in the larger scheme of things is not determined by the military, it is the responsibility of the civilian leaders.

A president not only sets the direction of the armed forces. He or she has a clear hand in establishing what kind of leadership the armed forces will have

You may read further on below web link :

http://opinion.inquirer.net/inquireropinion/editorial/view_article.php?article_id=81994

AFP: Lapses exposed troops as sitting ducks to enemies
http://www.gmanews.tv/story/55650/AFP-Lapses-exposed-troops-as-sitting-ducks-to-enemies

TheAvenger

August 13th, 2007, 01:31 AM

Dying in Sulu

Inquirer
Last updated 01:05am (Mla time) 08/13/2007

MANILA, Philippines -- What, exactly, is happening in Sulu? The high death toll reported last week has caused many to sound the alarm, not only in Camp Aguinaldo but even in the halls of Congress.

It has since become clear that the Armed Forces sustained the losses not in a single firefight, but in two encounters. The grief the public feels remains sharp, but it becomes a bit more bearable when the fog of war lifts a little.

The brutal fact remains, however: Too many soldiers lost their lives last week in the battlefields of Sulu. What did they die for?

They died in pursuit of the remnant Abu Sayyaf, and especially of two Jemaah Islamiyah leaders: Dulmatin and Umar Patek. That they were killed, in all likelihood, by members of the Moro National Liberation Front, an organization the government signed a peace accord with a decade ago, makes their sacrifice all the more heartbreaking.

Or all the more pointless—if, that is, we credit those who have never believed a lasting peace with Moro separatist groups was possible. For them, every armed encounter, every ambush, is fresh proof that Muslims cannot be trusted.

For those of us who believe in the possibility of lasting peace in the South, however, every armed encounter, every ambush, is proof positive that the peace process is as necessary as ever.

Certainly, the government’s iron fist must come down hard on those who coddle the JI terrorists and the Abu Sayyaf bandits. But the government must do so without losing sight of the true national interest: not merely to pursue the terrorists or to punish those who offer them sanctuary, but to establish the basis of a lasting peace. As President Macapagal-Arroyo said in the first of three statements she released over the weekend: “The military offensive against the Abu Sayyaf must continue, not as an act of vengeance but as a strategy to win the peace.”

Much about the offensive in Sulu remains confusing, and confused. But this much we can say.

THE KILL RATIO. The other day, Rep. Roilo Golez asked plaintively why the kill ratio, as it were, was almost 1:1. Perhaps a congressional investigation was in order? As a graduate of the US Naval Academy, however, Golez should have known better. This is guerrilla warfare. Rebels are not obliged to tell the media how many casualties they sustained; in fact, they remove bodies from the battlefield as soon as they can, because they can.

After two encounters last Thursday, for example, it was reported that only five Moro rebels had died. That is to say, only five bodies of men identified as belonging to the MNLF were found. But Jolo brigade commander Anthony Supnet said he had found out from residents in the area that about 40 rebels were actually killed. In contrast, Supnet said, “We cannot hide our casualties.”

THE ROGUE MNLF. All the President’s statements notwithstanding, the offensive against the Abu Sayyaf at this stage involves—or rather consists mainly of—attacks on MNLF redoubts in Sulu suspected of harboring the bandits and the JI leaders. Because “blood ties are very strong in Sulu,” as one peace advocate and long-time Sulu researcher told this newspaper, the AFP is actually engaged in combat with armed men who do not think of themselves in the same way the AFP, and the public at large, thinks of them. Said Victor Taylor: “What needs to be stressed is that from the perspective of the fighters, the organizational labels that the government uses, such as ‘rogue MNLF-Abu Sayyaf,’ have no meaning. It’s the common enemy that binds them together.”

That common enemy, unfortunately, is the AFP.

THE SPIRAL OF WAR. Is this reality “on the ground,” as both military commanders and armchair warmongers are fond of saying, evidence that peace with our Muslim brethren is only an illusion? No. Peace with the majority of our Muslim citizens is a triumphant fact; peace with one major Moro separatist movement a true feat; peace with the other separatist group still, despite recent encounters, closer at hand.

Over and above the snarling image of remnant MNLF units who retained their arms, we must acknowledge the reality of thousands of former MNLF rebels successfully integrated into the AFP or fully rehabilitated into mainstream life. In fact, some of those killed or wounded or involved in last week’s offensive were ex-MNLF “integrees.” We don’t doubt their sense of duty, their patriotism.

http://opinion.inquirer.net/inquireropinion/editorial/view_article.php?article_id=82125

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/relativesoldier.jpg

Defense Secretary Gilbert Teodoro hands over financial assistance to a relative of a slain Army soldier during his visit to the Western Mindanao Command headquarters in Zamboanga City.

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gen1

August 13th, 2007, 02:38 AM

I once talked with an npa surenderee from guinobatan, albay. we were passing by a coconut grove and he told me about an encounter with an army patrol.

There were only two npa's against a 12 man army squad. The army squad never knew where the neps were. the army squad would pepper the area automatic rifle fire. When they stopped, the npa would fire a single shot from their position. the army would let loose another barrage in retaliation. the neps would fire again during the lull. it was a stalemate despite the higher numbers and firepower of the troopers. the troopers were unable to secure the area and left before nightfall.

moral of the story - mastery of the terrain is a decisive homecourt advantage. the milf/mnlf have it. that's why it will be difficult to defeat them.

coacozambo92

August 13th, 2007, 05:48 AM

Do you beleive that our AFP says they killed 33 MILF or so? As for my soldier friends they say that in an encounter they only assumed the numbers as part of propaganda war. Example, when a two group clashes and resulted to a death of 10 soldiers, our AFP immediately assumed that they where ambushed by 300 rebels.. Do you beleive it? That's propaganda.. para hindi masyadong mapahiya.. the truth is MILF or Abus usually patrolled by less than 30 men only. Imagine how they manage to kill our soldiers? Our soldiers in every encounter always doubled the numbers of enemies they encountered. Again no bodiers recovered?
This is normal so we should becarefull in believing the numbers they say. The number of weapons or enemy casulaties left in the battlefield are the reality not just guessing.. ika nga kesyo na unahan daw, wala daw koordinasyon, na traydor, blah, blah,blah...
I am so dissapointed also how our military conducting operation.. why? Dahil hinahayaan nila ang MEDIA na mauna pa sa balita.. how many times do they do it?? Remember the ARMM Complex Hostage Drama in San Roque, Zamboanga City? Media ang nagmamando sa operasyon para sa MILITAR.. So disgrace!!! Diyan din nagtatampo ang ating mga TUNAY NA SUNDALO na bakit PAKIALAMERO ANG MEDIA NATIN KAYA TULOY NABUBULOLYASO ANG OPERATION NILA. To win the WAR,,, better ask the MEDIA to SHUT OFF. Let our MILTARY do their WORK!!

bariQ

August 13th, 2007, 06:08 AM

UBUSIN NYO YAN SILA LAHAT!!!!! NAIIRITA NA AKO SA KANILA!! CEASEFIRE??? ANO KAYU HILO??? go to muslim hell you pseudo fanataics! iwish the people there would help the afp rather than the rebels....

beads_strawberries

August 13th, 2007, 08:42 AM

Wind Shear

August 13th, 2007, 07:12 PM

coacozambo92, for your information, propaganda is a part of warfare (psychological warfare). It's up to you if you believe it or not.

midwestguy1

August 13th, 2007, 11:13 PM

Also, I don't think the arm forces would really leak their strategies to media before an attack. I'm not a military man but I know and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure this one out...

I feel that cocoazambo is just putting all the blame just on anybody, well, it doesn't work that way....

I'm not with the media as well but media play a big role in keeping balance in an event, they help express the truth. If there are some discripancies in some of their reports, other news agencies are there to back it up or correct it for there is not one sole group of medias who would cover the news and expose it to the public. Hath it not because of the media, the plight of some of the OFW overseas would have not known. They play a vital role in peace keeping and exposing the truth.

Lucentino

August 14th, 2007, 04:23 AM

CHINA: OK they are very busy with the insurgency in their south... lets step up our operations in the Spratlys...

zeejay

August 14th, 2007, 05:44 AM

What? I reiterate what's already been asked. Do you really have soldier friends? Knowing soldiers, they will never ever lie as to the real figures of casualties on their side. You can just imagine how low the morale of our soldier is at this time. I personally know one of the mistahs of the dead officer and he can't just explain how saddened their class is. Losing a comrade is not a joke, it does not involve insincerity as to the casualties. They are speaking of lives here.

IsaRic

August 14th, 2007, 05:52 AM

coacozambo92

August 14th, 2007, 06:21 AM

My friends, dont get me offended. I say its true.. You remember the abus in basilan? even the media are there and showing their strenght.. How many are there? Did you see Abu Sabaya or Janjalani? Did you watch abs cbn TELECAST THE CORRESPONDENCE? Then you must learn.. I am from Zamboanga and whenever there is a dead soldier they bring it to Zamboanga.. no joke okay? I have close encounter with the families of this dead soldier and I symphatized with them. Regarding the Ambush? They never say we are ambushed by a thousand of MILF in one hit.. no way, our soldiers are also in panic in that time.. clearly they told me that.. one burst of gunfire counted them for 10.. then if your a soldier you might count a hundreds sorounding your positions even the truth are only 4 guys are hitting you.. no casualties recovered? Yes... nothing at all, always says blood stain in the ground or maybe the enemy bring their dead.. How true is it?

rage@cebu

August 14th, 2007, 06:38 AM

TheAvenger

August 14th, 2007, 10:40 AM

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/fog.jpg

FOG OF WAR. A convoy of heavily armed Army troops in Jolo, Sulu appears to be shrouded in fog, which is actually dust kicked up by the vehicles' passage. INQUIRER/EDWIN BACASMAS

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THE TRUE CASUALTIES OF WAR. Children from families displaced by the fighting in Sulu await their ration of food at the evacuation center in Panglima Tingkahan school in Parang. INQUIRER/EDWIN BACASMAS

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RESPITE. A soldier leans back on his ammunition and tinkers with his cell phone as he whiles away the time in Jolo, Sulu, where military operations against the Abu Sayyaf are ongoing. INQUIRER.net/JOEL GUINTO

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/zamboanga.jpg

AT THE END OF THE DAY. Soldiers march into the sunset at the Edwin Andrews Airbase in Zamboanga City. INQUIRER.net/JOEL GUINTO

.

TheAvenger

August 14th, 2007, 11:07 AM

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/camp.jpg

SOLDIERS from the 15th Infantry Battalion leave Camp Gen. Teodulfo Bautista in Jolo, Sulu, for deployment to Camp Bayog in Maimbung, Sulu, as the military starts a major offensive against terrorists. EDWIN BACASMAS

Stay out, Arroyo warns politicos

By Michael Lim Ubac, Christine Avendaño
Inquirer
Last updated 01:49am (Mla time) 08/14/2007

MANILA, Philippines -- Stung by battle-field defeats, the military Monday launched “a full offensive” against terrorist hideouts in Sulu province, and President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo warned politicians against exploiting the situation for their own ends.

Tension is high on Sulu’s main island of Jolo -- where nearly 60 people, including 27 soldiers (by latest count), have been killed in a recent series of clashes -- but there were no fresh reports of fighting Monday.

Ms Arroyo said that the assaults were directed against terrorists on Jolo but that she had ordered the military to avoid civilian casualties and not to break a truce with two rebel groups, the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) and the Moro National Liberation Front (MNLF).

“Even as I speak, our government forces are in a full offensive against terrorist cells in Sulu,” Ms Arroyo said in a speech during the 16th annual general assembly of the Federation of Philippine Industries Inc. (FPI) in Makati City.

Ms Arroyo called on the businessmen to ask politicians not to exploit the situation.

“Today, I am here to ask you first to help me appeal to all not to exploit the peace and security issues and initiatives for politicking,” she said, without referring to any specific groups or individuals.

Ms Arroyo said the businessmen could help the government succeed both in its military operations and peace efforts since “after all, many of the champions of industry here are very important political supporters as well.”

Directives to the military

Ms Arroyo said she had issued the following “security directives” to the Armed Forces of the Philippines:

• Keep military operations in Sulu and Basilan firmly under control to minimize civilian casualties.

• Hold urgent talks with the MILF under Malaysian auspices to resolve the Basilan/Sulu situation, making it clear that the government has to secure its forces and areas as part of peace efforts and law enforcement, but will not overrun MILF areas.

• Brief the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) on developments, underlining both the limited military operations and the continuing peace and development efforts, including huge outlays in the 2007 and 2008 budgets for Mindanao, including Basilan and Sulu.

• Harness the Bishops-Ulama Conference and other religious and civil society groups for the peace effort.

• Accelerate development initiatives in the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao (ARMM).

Ancestral domain

“If it would not adversely affect the Philippine negotiating position and provoke alarm among Christians, a pilot implementation of the envisioned Muslim ancestral domain regime shall be undertaken, to demonstrate our sincerity to achieve peace,” Ms Arroyo said.

She said the government had declared many ancestral domains among indigenous peoples.

“I really don’t see why anybody should be scared if there is an ancestral domain declared for the Muslim people,” she added.

The issue of ancestral domain or territory is about the areas to be recognized as part of a Muslim homeland and which will be placed under a so-called Bangsamoro Juridical Entity (BJE), the probable name of the governing body of the new Moro homeland.

It is not clear how much autonomy the BJE will have. But the proposal is for the MILF to have full fiscal, political and religious authority in the BJE.

Protecting civilians

The issue has been a stumbling block to signing a peace deal with the MILF.

Ms Arroyo said members of the FPI led by its president Jesus Arranza and chair Meneleo “Ito” Carlos Jr. were “indispensable partners in development as well as in security.”

Organized in 1991, FPI is composed of business leaders and captains of the industry.

Defense Secretary Gilbert Teodoro said the operations against the Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG) in Sulu and Basilan would be carried out in a way that would not endanger civilian lives and the peace process.

“We received orders from the President to (be) careful and to control military operations to make sure that the actual targets are the ASG elements,” he said at a news conference after he attended his first command conference with military officials led by Armed Forces Chief of Staff Gen. Hermogenes Esperon Jr.

Some 14,000 people have fled from their homes in Sulu and Basilan in the wake of military operations against the ASG and its allies, whom the military said included rogue elements within the MNLF.

Teodoro made it clear that the military would not be able to stop its operations against the ASG and lawless elements unless they “surrender to the fold of the law.”

For the first time, the military leadership conceded it was possible Ms Arroyo had sent the retiring Army Chief Lt. Gen. Romeo Tolentino to oversee military operations in Sulu and Basilan because the ground commanders’ performance was not up to par.

“I can see it in that light. I can also take it in the light that she is concerned about our troops,” Esperon said, when asked whether Tolentino’s special assignment was an indication Ms Arroyo was not satisfied with the commanders’ performance.

Asked whether he was satisfied with the performance of his ground commanders, Esperon said: “I have my way of telling them if I’m satisfied or not but I won’t do it in public.”

No to Tolentino

Sen. Rodolfo Biazon urged Ms Arroyo to choose a good field commander, rather than appoint an adviser without command responsibility, to oversee military operations against Muslim rebels.

Biazon said he would block a plan to appoint Tolentino as an adviser to the field commander in Sulu upon his retirement on Aug. 25.

“It’s not a case of trusting his abilities, it is a question of structure,” Biazon said. With reports from Gil C. Cabacungan Jr. and PDI Research

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view_article.php?article_id=82353

Video Links :

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10363/Military-offensive--in-Basilan-Sulu-intensifies

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10377/QTV-Army-puts-up-more-Basilan-checkpoints

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TheAvenger

August 16th, 2007, 02:06 AM

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By Julie S. Alipala in Zamboanga City
Wednesday, 15 August 2007

Beheading in Basilan, however, is mainly political

Tactical errors, lapses—these are now commonly used words in the Armed Forces of the Philippines—and they appear to be the most convenient excuses for the recent setbacks in Sulu and Basilan. (Click here to see the location of Basilan island through Google Maps.) But our findings show that poor planning and tired troops are key factors in the military debacle.

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A couple of weeks ago, the AFP blamed the death of 14 Marine soldiers (July 10, 2007) in Basilan to the wrong radio frequency. Ten of the 14 were mutilated and beheaded while 15 others were injured.

Later, the ambush on August 9 at Maimbung town in Sulu (click here to view location through Google Maps), wherein 10 Army soldiers were killed, was attributed to the failure to provide back-up security escorts. In a matter of days, casualties increased to a total of 27 soldiers killed and 12 wounded.
Armed Forces chief of staff Gen. Hermogenes Esperon Jr and Western Mindanao Command chief Lt. General Eugenio Cedo agree that tactical errors are the reasons for the heavy casualties of the military in these two provinces of the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao (ARMM).

However, an Army colonel and a junior officer we talked to expressed dismay over the outcome of multi-million pesos worth of military operations. They blame the main planners and recommend stripping them of their star ranks. "The high error percentage is unacceptable given that this caused the lives of 42 soldiers in a span of 30 days," the Army officer said.

Both of our sources requested not to be identified because they are not authorized to speak on the issue.

The junior officer, with the rank of lieutenant, says military planners are likened to licensed engineers: "They conceive first the idea, then plan and map all factors such as safety, zoning of areas, logistics, supplies and resources, workers, funding and then construction. Once a mild crack is noticed on a structure, engineers may face serious consequences. This is investigated and if the engineers are found to have been reckless, their licenses are cancelled."

Unfortunately these procedures don't apply to the main planners of the AFP, the young lieutenant lamented.

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Tactical Blunder

In 2005, the Panamao attack—where the military operation dragged on for about 10 days—resulted in the death of about 40 soldiers and an officer, Colonel Dennis Villanueva.

However, according to an intelligence officer, "the margin of error in 2005 is quite acceptable because the operation lasted more than a week. But the error committed in the recent operation wherein 26 are dead within 10 hours is unimaginable. It's basically a tactical blunder."

The AFP has seen better days. In 2003, for example, soldiers captured Abu Sayyaf leaders Mujib Susukan and Galib Andang aka Kumander Robot in Sulu. A resident, Fatmawati Salapuddin, remembers it well: "It was very laudable as the AFP then conducted the operation quietly, they didn't employ thousands of troops and they didn't use high-powered artilleries and bombs and no one was displaced."

In Basilan last year, the military launched successful operations against the Abu Sayyaf, making them flee to the nearby island of Sulu.

Today, the AFP has sent more than 6,000 troops to pursue less then 500 armed elements in Sulu and Basilan.

Tired Troops

Widow Sara Hashim wife of slain Private First Class Daim Hashim, native of Jolo, told Newsbreak that her husband was a non-combatant. Sara, speaking in Filipino said, "My husband worked as carpenter of the 33rd Infantry Battalion, part of the non-operating troops.”

Hashim’s best friend, Private First Class Kaisar Hassan, who was also killed, was sort of an all-around personnel at the battalion, cleaning bunkers, weeding grasses, preparing coffee.

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“They lacked people as everyone was in the operation,” Sara said.

Wilfreda Potoy, mother of slain Private First Class Rico Potoy, gunner of Bravo Company of the 33rd Infantry Battalion, received a text message from her eldest son on August 8, 2007 saying he's exhausted from their operation.

“Father, mother I am going home on August 12. I am very tired. Almost everyday, there's operation, morning, at night. We keep on operating 10 days straight, I want to rest," Rico said in his message.

Rico Potoy was among the 16 killed in an encounter on August 9 in Maimbung.

Wilfreda's youngest son, Private Astor "Jojo" Potoy Jr, also of 33rd IB confirmed that their unit operated without rest since the first of August.

Total battle casualties incurred in the August 8 and 9 encounters were 2. Twelve others were wounded of whom three are in critical condition.

Task Force Comet chief Maj. Gen. Reuben Rafael told Newsbreak that their enemies, combined Abu Sayyaf and "rogue" Moro National Liberation Front fighters, incurred 37 killed in action but only 10 bodies were recovered. Of the 10, only four were identified.

How it Started

As early as August 2, Sulu Gov. Abdusakur Tan reported that several families were displaced in Indanan town due to renewed military campaign against the Abu Sayyaf Group. But the military kept mum.

Indanan field social worker Christopher Lee confirmed that on August 2, several residents scampered for safety seeing the arrival of soldiers "who later established positions in the communities, thus residents abandoned their houses for fear of being caught in the crossfire."

On August 7, two junior officers of the Marine Battalion Landing Team 11 were wounded in an Indanan clash. Still, officials of the Western Mindanao Command kept silent.

A day later, Comet chief Rafael confirmed the report in Indanan including the wounding of five others from the 33rd Infantry Battalion. One was killed, identified as Private First Class Stevencent Ballares.

"The Army troopers clashed with about 50 heavily armed Abu Sayyaf Group. We have recovered four dead from the Abu Sayyaf side," Rafael said.

However, Hatimil Hasan, interim vice chair of the MNLF sounded the alarm over the incident: “There are no members or leaders of the Abu Sayyaf killed, all those slain were bonafide members and commander of the MNLF Parang Municipal Command." Hasan identified the slain commander as Jeili Habbi, chair of MNLF Parang. A son and two other close-in security, all MNLF fighters, were killed.

MNLF Coddling Abu Sayyaf?

Ustadz Habib Zain Jali, MNLF spiritual adviser, said he was informed by fighters on the ground that Habbi, the slain MNLF chair who is more than 60 years old, roused from sleep early dawn, went out to inspect the surrounding, "along with his son and two others and as he opened the gate, a burst of fire greeted him."

"We lost seven comrades,” said Hasan, who is also concurrent speaker of the Legislative Assembly of the ARMM.

He revealed that prior to the August 8 attack, "soldiers in three truckloads encircled camp of Ustadz Khaid (Adjibun)," chair of the MNLF State Revolutionary Command based in Indanan.

Two wounded Army soldiers of the 33rd Infantry Battalion corroborated Hassan’s statements.

Private First Class Muhamil Hassan (not related to Hatimil Hasan) of the lead squad unit said that on the dawn of August 7, they were informed by their commander to execute a highly sensitive mission in Parang, Sulu. They jumped off before five o’clock in the morning of August 8 to the said area and Hassan was directed to lead an advance unit.

"Our mission was to go after Albader Parad and Doktor Abu (who are Abu Sayyaf) but when we arrived, it was the MNLF," Hassan said but quickly added that "the Abu Sayyaf and MNLF may have combined forces because that’s what’s been talked about."

Private First Class Abdulhari Bittong, a native of Parang, admits he was briefed about the mission but was unaware of the objective.

Bittong said that when they reached their destination, "I was surprised because it was the house of MNLF Commander Jeili. The rebels were in ambush position, then there was an exchange of gunfire, at close range. We were about 20 meters from the rebels, that’s why I know who we were fighting against."

When Bittong asked why he knew some of his targets and the slain commander, he said that he used to be with them since he is an integree, one of the former MNLF fighters who joined the AFP.

Commander Jeili is known in the community and maintained several fighters.

MNLF Not Demobilized

"The military violated the peace agreement,” Hassan said. “They attacked camps of the MNLF in Indanan and Parang and it's our right to defend our territory."

Hasan confirmed that the Bangsamoro Army was responsible for the August 9 ambush on government troops in Maimbung initially resulting in 10 killed and one wounded.

"We can’t accept that we are being attacked by the AFP, we don’t know what their objective is," Adjibun said after a series of dialogues initiated by the AFP and MNLF ground commanders.

From August 2 to 6, troops of Task Group Philippine Marine Corps along with Joint Special Operations Force encircled Indanan forcing the MNLF to abandon their last and recognized territory.

On August 8, 2007 elements of 33rd Infantry Battalion raided the house of MNLF Parang Chair Jeili Habbi. Habbi and three other MNLF fighters were killed.

Before that, in late April, 2nd Marine Brigade commander Col. Ceasario Atienza took control of Camp Jabal Uhod in Panamao.

MNLF commander Ustadz Habier Malik declared jihad on April 13 against the Armed Forces when he got confirmation that troops of Joint Special Operations under Col. Ruperto Pabustan were responsible for the death of a teenager on February 19, 2007 in Indanan.

The teenager turned out to be the grandson of an MNLF commander who was killed in a declared "free fire zone" area of Indanan.

However, Pabustan insisted the boy was an Abu Sayyaf: "Why on earth was he there late that night if he is not a bandit. He was killed in a legitimate encounter."

But a probe conducted by the Commission on Human Rights showed that the boy was with another male companion on their way home after watching a TV soap opera.

Basilan: Marines vs Politicians

In Basilan, it’s different. Some link the Sulu tragedy to Basilan's carnage but reasons for the clashes differ.

The reasons for the beheading of the Marines are mainly political. An independent investigation by a group of foreign and Filipino women organized by the Global Partnership for the Prevention of Armed Conflict-Southeast Asia (GPPAC-SEA) and the Mindanao Peace Weavers (MPW) showed that “issues related to politics are among the factors that contributed to the deterioration of the peace and security in the island province."

Newsbreak discovered that the beleaguered unit of the Philippine Marines during the July 10 incident in Albarka town earned a reputation as the most stringent unit when it comes to gun ban enforcement.

In Albarka, 14 soldiers were killed, and ten of them mutilated and decapitated. The slain soldiers were actively involved in enforcing the firearm ban, according to Lt. Col. Felix Almadrones who heads the Marine unit deployed to confiscate loose firearms.

The Marines started to implement the gun ban in April, as mandated by the Commission on Elections, in the run up to the May 14 election.

The Marines reported that assorted firearms were apprehended from politicians but identities were not indicated. In April and May, the unit confiscated several firearms and rounds of ammunition reportedly owned by politicians in the area.

In July 5, the unit encountered suspected members of the Abu Sayyaf Group and recovered one more firearm.

No Sacred Cows

Local officials attest to the dedication and determination of the Marine Battalion Landing Team 8 (MBLT8), headed by Almadrones, in trying to clean the province of loose firearms that have been the cause of lawlessness and banditry for a long time.

Lamitan City Mayor Roderick Furigay said the sincerity of the said unit is indisputable. “They didn’t have sacred cows. If anyone violated the law, whoever he or she was, they were treated equally."

Basilan Bishop Martin Jumoad said that "they were very faithful to their work, they were just following orders and doing their mission and those who had encountered with other forces in Albarka were known as uncompromising against illegal activities."

Jumoad said the unit was firm in their campaign against loose firearms. “They arrested and seized guns even if they belonged to the followers of influential politicians like Gerry Salapuddin or Wahab Akbar."

Naval Forces Western Mindanao Command chief Rear Admiral Emilio Marayag said that "our soldiers in Basilan were able to apprehend more firearms in just a span of four months in the area compared to other units that have been assigned to this island for more than three years."

Anak Mindanao Representative Mujiv Hataman confirmed that Almadrones’ unit "was very rigid in performing their mission they were not afraid to disarm politicians or followers of politicians before and after the election."

Trace the Root Cause

Hataman believes that the root cause of the conflict "boils to one thing, the proliferation of loose firearms. The government's efforts to address this and personnel engaging in this campaign always end up in tragic incidents, relieved or demoted."

In 2001, Army personnel of 103rd Army Brigade also implemented the gun ban campaign. Hataman recalled that more firearms were recovered inside the Provincial Capitol Office when the governor was Wahab Akbar, now a congressman, and the Army official then was Col. Jovenal Narcise.

"Other than growing animosity, there was legal battle between the governor and the army official," Hataman said but the difference was, "Narcise didn't coordinate with his higher official while the Marines had prior coordination and they properly turned over the apprehended firearms to their higher officials."

"It's like rido (vengeance) against uniformed personnel, where armed groups tried to avenge their losses," Hataman said.

Rear Admiral Marayag suggested that the "Commission on Audit should conduct a probe on politicians like Akbar. He should explain how he was able to acquire firearms: are they government firearms or he bought them using his own money?"

Photocredits: Julie S. Alipala

Sources Link :

http://www.newsbreak.com.ph/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3599&Itemid=88889008

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coacozambo92

August 16th, 2007, 05:51 AM

TheAvenger

August 16th, 2007, 06:15 AM

Insurgency in the Philippines will go on... this is part of our history unless our people will demand to change our system. The system our country should be change also our way of life.
Our soldiers will the more worst scenario in the future because our country have a lot of unsolved problems to deal with since 18th century. Its so sad that most of Filipinos are easy going. Before the concentration of war was in Mindanao so think many times the war now is in your backyard. More people are confused in the way our Democracy bringging in our system.
In Mindanao or as a Mindanaoan.. we always say.. no peace unless no victory. Make War then make Peace. Peace will come if all the Brave are dead.
Kayo naman ang humusga.. Opinion ko so Opinion ninyo naman.

oh.... you were from MIndanao ......Are you from ARMM or from part of Western Mindanao which is not a part of ARMM ?

1. Are you in favor of granting our country's ancestral domains to the Lumad and the Muslim of Mindanao ? so that MILF will lay their arms and cease their rebellion.

2. If GMA will unilaterally agreed with the demands of the MILF to grant them the ancestral domains what is your opinion on the the effect of that action to the Christians living in ARMM provinxes ?
a. it's effect to the Christian in Eastern Mindanao but outside of ARMM like Zamboanga City.

3. What is your opinion why it seems Governor Daisy Fuentes seems not in favor of granting ancestral domains to our Muslim brothers and sisters.

TheAvenger

August 16th, 2007, 06:54 PM

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THE GUARDIANS. A Marine and his dog keep a watchful eye on the coast in Buhanginan, Patikul, Sulu. Thousands of troops have been deployed to the southern Philippines for an offensives against Abu Sayyaf extremists who dealt the military its heaviest

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PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT. Troops of the 3rd Marine Brigade fire their weapons during target practice at a firing range in Patikul, Sulu. President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo has ordered offensives against Abu Sayyaf extremists in Basilan and Sulu provinces. INQUIRER/EDWIN BACASMAS

Senate probe into US troops in Sulu sought

Senator Miriam Defensor Santiago Thursday called for a legislative inquiry into the reported presence of US troops in Indanan, Sulu, meant to find out if it constitutes violations of RP-US defense agreements.

Reports said that heavily armed US troops were allegedly seen leading a military convoy last August 14 in Indanan, Sulu, where Filipino soldiers are going after suspects in the killing of 14 Marines.

The resolution that Santiago filed directed the Senate foreign relations committee and the Legislative Oversight on the Visiting Forces Agreement to conduct the investigation. Santiago is the chair of both committees.

"Under the terms of Reference for RP-US Exercise Balikatan 02-1, US participants are prohibited from engaging in combat operations, without prejudice to their right to self-defense," Santiago said.

The Terms of Reference govern the conduct of the joint counter-terrorism training exercises in Muslim Mindanao where American and Filipino soldiers take part in.

You may read further on below web link :

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/56323/Senate-probe-into-US-troops-in-Sulu-sought

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TheAvenger

August 16th, 2007, 07:16 PM

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By Joel Guinto
INQUIRER.net
Last updated 03:55pm (Mla time) 08/16/2007

MANILA, Philippines -- Detained ex-Marine commandant Major General Renato Miranda said officers charged for alleged involvement in a failed coup plot in February last year knew who led 14 Marines their death in Basilan province last July 10.

At the same time, Miranda said only an "honest to goodness" investigation would reveal who was responsible for the clash in Al-Barkah town that left 14 Marines killed, 10 of them beheaded.

"We have our notion [about] who is responsible [for] the slaughter of the Marines. We are still validating it," Miranda said in a hand-written statement released during a court martial hearing in Tanay town, Rizal province on Thursday.

"But all of these will come to light if there will be an honest to goodness investigation, so that the death of those Marines will not be in vain…and for the sake of the living, who are still willing to offer their lives," he added.

you may read further on below link.

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/nation/view_article.php?article_id=82979

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coacozambo92

August 17th, 2007, 08:08 AM

Of course I am from Western Mindanao, I am in the frontier of conflict. I felt the suffering which anybody from Luzon or Visayas never experience. We are tired of this never ending conflict. Please, let this problem be solve by Mindanaoan. We know the problem, we can solve this problem if this so called masters of negotiators will keep their mouth shut. In our sentiments, we hate to see the so called masters of negotiators where from LUZON!!! Shit!! we have suffered since you think your the qualified brat!
Minanaoans are the one most likely hit and hurt in this conflict. If this will go on then expect the same issues in the next generation.
This AFP are dominated from LUZON.. They are sometimes feeling they are the best and that is the reason why they fall harder than expected. Please let our AFP realized that this fight should be fought by us Mindanaoan. You armed the true Mindanaon then we will fight in our own way. POLITICS is also the problem, too much politics also created TRAITORS. Yes in the branch of our AFP there were plenty of TRAITORS. Do not deny it because even the Elected Senator Trillanes have been asking to investigate the ambush in BASILAN. There is really a problem with in the so called SUPREME Armed Forces of the Luzon Republic... ooppps offended? okay change it.. Armed Forces of the Philippines * Fighters of the true spirited Filipinos*
I am not offending anybody, because I am from Mindanao and we have suffered to much already. Our hardship bring our Promised Land to a world of dreams (Pangarap na lang ang KAPAYAPAAN).
I see this so called sympathetic Luzonian Politician talking as if they are the master. You must becarefull KAIBIGAN... Matagal na ang PROBLEMANG ITO, wala ka pang nagawang kongkretong resulta tungo sa kapayapaan. Magaling ka lang sa salita dahil ginuguyo ka ng iyong likoran. Mahina ka dahil napapaniwala ka agad sa mga hinaing ng mga IYAN. Kung tunay kang matapang sana hindi na umabot pa sa taong ito!
Let us clearly solve this problem hindi puro na lang MEDIA Frenzy!! NAHIHIRAPAN NA KAMI!!! Armed our TROOPS with GUTS and DETERMINATION!!! Leave them alone, let them fight and fight!!! We want our beloved DEFENSE FORCES to be strong and we will be proud of them if they win!! Stop political pakialamero.
It's up to other forumers to say what are their feelings. I am not offending anybody, I am just telling what I feel *The hardship our family suffered in this muro-muro conflict! The truth should be heared!

bitoy

August 17th, 2007, 09:15 AM

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Soldiers show their cheques amounting to 30,000 pesos ($652) after the awarding of special financial assistance to wounded soldiers from recent clashes with rebels in southern Philippines at Camp Aguinaldo in Manila August 16, 2007. REUTERS/Stringer

The price of a battle wound?

TheAvenger

August 17th, 2007, 11:23 AM

Of course I am from Western Mindanao, I am in the frontier of conflict. I felt the suffering which anybody from Luzon or Visayas never experience. We are tired of this never ending conflict. Please, let this problem be solve by Mindanaoan. We know the problem, we can solve this problem if this so called masters of negotiators will keep their mouth shut. In our sentiments, we hate to see the so called masters of negotiators where from LUZON!!! Shit!! we have suffered since you think your the qualified brat!
Minanaoans are the one most likely hit and hurt in this conflict. If this will go on then expect the same issues in the next generation.
This AFP are dominated from LUZON.. They are sometimes feeling they are the best and that is the reason why they fall harder than expected. Please let our AFP realized that this fight should be fought by us Mindanaoan. You armed the true Mindanaon then we will fight in our own way. POLITICS is also the problem, too much politics also created TRAITORS. Yes in the branch of our AFP there were plenty of TRAITORS. Do not deny it because even the Elected Senator Trillanes have been asking to investigate the ambush in BASILAN. There is really a problem with in the so called SUPREME Armed Forces of the Luzon Republic... ooppps offended? okay change it.. Armed Forces of the Philippines * Fighters of the true spirited Filipinos*
I am not offending anybody, because I am from Mindanao and we have suffered to much already. Our hardship bring our Promised Land to a world of dreams (Pangarap na lang ang KAPAYAPAAN).
!

Let me shared my views on the topic which is highlighted in Red.

The conflict in the south was due to the radicalism of our Muslim Filipino which can be traced in the sufferings and injustices under the hands of the Spaniards and American colonizer. The other reasons for the radicalim of our brother Filipino Muslim was due to the lost of their ancestral lands to the Christians from Luzon and the Visayas.

The Americans started this transmigration of Christian settlers from Luzon and Visayas to MIndanao and after the Japanese War (WW II) the Philippine government embarked on grandscale transmigration of Christians to Mindanao backed by Armed Forces.

And later the descendants of this mentioned Christian settlers from the North who was transmigrated to Mindanao, have the ingratitude to even think of separating from the Republic of the Philippines as per previous discussions in previous SSC Thread which is related to the Mindano conflict,

Now they don't even want other Filipinos from the Visayas and Luzon to participate in the discussion of ancestral domains for the Lumads and Muslims in Mindanao. If not for the soldiers who shed their bloods, who were mostly from the north, these Christians in Eastern and Western Mindanao will not survive the turmoil of war in Mindanao in the 50s Kamlon rebellion and the 70s when the MNLF started their rebellion.

Now these descendants of Christian settlers from the Visayas and Luzon have the guts to say that they can stand on their own on dealing with the political problems of Muslims of Mindanao who were now occupying a small porton of Western Mindanao.

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TheAvenger

August 18th, 2007, 12:14 AM

Inquirer
Last updated 02:27am (Mla time) 08/17/2007

MANILA, Philippines -- The other day, an Agence France-Presse journalist photographed American soldiers spearheading a convoy of Philippine Marines in Sulu. The accompanying story suggested the controversial context in its very first sentence: “Heavily armed US Special Forces troops were seen leading a military convoy Tuesday in Indanan town, Sulu, where security forces are fighting Muslim insurgents.”

The story went on to say: “The American troops were part of a convoy of Philippine Marines hunting members of the Abu Sayyaf.”

The day after, the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) issued a series of statements that, in effect, contradicted the evidence of the photographs.

“I was informed that the reason for the mission of the [American] troops is that they are going to conduct site survey in areas where there will be humanitarian assistance and Balikatan activities,” AFP spokesman Lt. Col. Bartolome Bacarro told reporters.

In all likelihood, the real answer is: The war on terror has allowed the Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo administration, the AFP leadership, and military units from the United States, the United Kingdom and Australia to get away with many sins of omission and commission. The three countries at the forefront of the war on terror maintain intelligence units in parts of Mindanao, in those areas where the deadly Jemaah Islamiyah has been known to operate -- the last two without benefit of a visiting forces agreement. The United States itself, through the cover of the Joint Special Operations Task Force, has been able to do much more than its limited role implies. Case in point: The US troops sighted on Tuesday belonged to the Task Force which oversees the conduct of military exercises involving Philippine and American troops in the country.

War games in the middle of a war? Tell that to the Marines.

TheAvenger

August 18th, 2007, 12:19 AM

Senator Rodolfo Biazon on Friday said detained Sen. Antonio Trillanes IV has given him "sensitive information" that provides the names of government officials who are liable for the July 10 ambush in Basilan of government forces that killed 14 Marines.

Earlier, Trillanes has filed a resolution seeking a probe on the alleged involvement and direct knowledge of ranking government officials in the ambush and mutilation of members of the Phil. Marines in Basilan.

Apart from the information provided by Trillanes in their meeting Friday morning, Biazon noted media reports that seemed to back the allegations of the detained senator.

However, Biazon said he would still have to wait until the "information" is made into a formal testimony before he could open the Senate investigation.

A lot of the information Senator Trillanes gave me are not included in his resolution, and the information were so sensitive that at this point, I think identity of possible officials that may have been involved…is best left unpublished," Biazon said. Biazon said the information was so sensitive "it could lead to the destabilization of the Armed Forces of the Philippines. The nature of the information could even force the Senate to hold the hearings in closed doors, Biazon said.

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/56530/Biazon-Trillanes-info-names-govt-men-linked-to-Basilan-ambush

gen1

August 18th, 2007, 01:04 AM

a couple of years ago, at a makati party, I met an american contractor who was a former air force major. we compared notes and he told me he is based in zamboanga and flies cessnas in mindanao conducting aerial surveys.

the americans never left mindanao. after the exercises, they still have contractors there.

(for the non-warfreaks, american contractors is the current PC term for american mercenaries)

TheAvenger

August 18th, 2007, 03:06 AM

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AN UNFINISHED LIFE: The vigil for 2nd Lt. Charlie Anthony Camelon is held in his unfinished house in Mauban town, Quezon. The only officer of 27 soldiers killed in Jolo, Camelon was only on his first assignment after his PMA graduation when killed in action. The town is proud of its first-ever PMAyer. DELFIN T. MALLARI/INQUIRER SOUTHERN LUZON

gen1

August 18th, 2007, 06:39 AM

the guy I spoke with said he usually stays at the base. they will stick out if they venture out kasi.

gandang lalake nun. nakakabayot. :lol: seksing puti ang syota.

TheAvenger

August 18th, 2007, 08:05 AM

By Dona Pazzibugan
Inquirer
Last updated 00:42am (Mla time) 08/18/2007

A SPAN Of six years separates the debacles suffered by government troops in Al-Barka and Lamitan, both in Basilan, but they are linked in some way, according to Sen. Rodolfo Biazon.

A former chief of staff of the Armed Forces, Biazon made the connection between the ambush in Al-Barka (formerly Tipo-Tipo) on July 10, and the siege of Lamitan on June 2, 2001, after a meeting with Sen. Antonio Trillanes IV at the latter's detention cell in Fort Bonifacio Friday morning.

Biazon later told reporters he was convinced that the Senate should investigate Trillanes' claim that a conspiracy among "ranking government officials" had led to the killing of 14 Marines and the beheading of 10 of them in a seven-hour ambush of a military convoy in Al-Barka.

But Biazon, who chairs the Senate committee on national security and defense, said he had also told Trillanes that the witnesses should formally present their accusations.

Trillanes, a former Navy lieutenant accused of coup d'etat for leading the Oakwood mutiny in July 2003, filed on Tuesday a resolution seeking a Senate inquiry into "insider information" that Palace officials had had a hand in the Al-Barka ambush.

"In our discussion, [the information] seemed to [indicate that] there might have been a relation between the [Al-Barka] incident and the Lamitan incident--almost the same circumstances, the same results, in the fact that soldiers were killed," Biazon said.

"There is a parallelism," he said.

Surrounded
On June 2, 2001, scores of fleeing Abu Sayyaf bandits were surrounded by government troops in the Jose Torres Memorial Hospital compound in Lamitan.

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But after several hours of heavy fighting, all the cornered bandits managed to escape with their hostages, leaving a number of soldiers killed.

It was later alleged that ranking military officials had held back the troops and delayed reinforcements to allow the bandits to escape. Congress investigated the alleged collusion but in the end, no military official was found liable.

"In Lamitan, wasn't there a reinforcement order by the brigade commander [that was] countermanded? There are other parallelisms I cannot discuss at this point," Biazon said Friday.

Pls read further on below web link:

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view_article.php?article_id=83276

TheAvenger

August 18th, 2007, 08:35 AM

this is an old news but it seems this allegation tallied with some military officers that a high government civilian government officials
is linked to the beheading of the Marines.
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By Ramon Tulfo
Inquirer
Last updated 03:34am (Mla time) 08/02/2007

Moro rebels are probably laughing themselves hoarse, up to now, after policemen trying to serve warrants on many of them in Basilan Tuesday went home empty-handed.

The cops, armed to the teeth and backed up by 5,000 or so Marines and Army troops, were sent to the camp of the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) near the scene of the ambush two weeks ago.

How could the government expect to arrest MILF rebels who beheaded and mutilated the dead Marines when it vacillated in taking immediate action against the perpetrators?

The perpetrators were given more than enough time to escape. They probably merged with the local populace or are now hiding in other provinces.

The soldiers, who wanted to avenge the deaths of their comrades, are demoralized.

Nagmukhang ***** ang mga sundalo.

* * *
My military sources in Basilan are wondering why the government has not confronted Rep. Wahab Akbar, former Basilan governor, on the alleged participation of his men in the ambush and beheading.

Two of Akbar’s men were included in the warrant of arrest, but they are not members of the MILF or the Abu Sayyaf as the government claims.

No Abu Sayyaf bandit took part in the ambush and mutilation, according to my sources.

The MILF allegedly conspired with Akbar’s men in ambushing the Marines, but reportedly left it to the men of the political kingpin to do the job of finishing off the prostrate soldiers, some of whom were still alive.

* * *

How come there is no investigation of the allegation in this column, quoting sources in Basilan, that a top honcho at Western Mindanao Command (Wesmincom) ordered the planes and helicopters sent to reinforce the beleaguered Marines back to base?

Intramurals within the Philippine Marine Corps allegedly caused the fiasco in Basilan.

The top Wesmincom officer also is allegedly a close friend of Akbar. He probably was called by Akbar on the phone and told to hold off the air support.

Is the Armed Forces afraid to conduct the investigation because it might open a can of worms?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

A former Abu Sayaff founder who became a government officials .... supervising the military operations against the Abu Sayaf ?

only in da Pilipins .... :lol:

.

TheAvenger

August 18th, 2007, 04:16 PM

(Update 7:56 p.m.) Fifteen Marines and a helicopter gunship pilot were killed during a fierce clash with al-Qaeda-linked Abu Sayyaf militants in Basilan Saturday, a military spokesman said. The military estimated 30 militants died.

The Marines attacked an Abu Sayyaf camp and engaged about 70 militants in close-quarter combat in a remote village outside the town of Ungkaya Pukan on Basilan island early Saturday, Lt. Col. Bartolome Bacarro said.

A GMA Television reporter close to the scene said troops, tanks and helicopters were rushing to the area. Gunfire could still be heard in the background as he reported from the area at about 12:30 p.m.

Another seven Marines were wounded in the fighting, Bacarro said.

The pilot of a helicopter gunship was killed and his co-pilot wounded when the aircraft crashed after providing fire support to the ground troops, air force chief Lt. Gen. Horacio Tolentino said.

Tolentino said an investigation was underway to determine whether the crash was caused by ground fire or mechanical trouble.

Saturday's battle was the bloodiest clash on Basilan since a July 10 ambush left 14 Marines dead, 10 of whom were beheaded. Last week, 27 Army soldiers and 32 Abu Sayyaf gunmen were killed in separate clashes on Jolo Island.

Bacarro said the number of Abu Sayyaf fatalities in Saturday's clash had yet to be confirmed, but the bodies of two commanders were recovered at the site, including one believed to have been involved in the July 10 beheadings.

He said the operation was undertaken in coordination with the local government in the area and the Muslim separatist Moro Islamic Liberation Front, which is in peace negotiations with the government brokered by Malaysia.

''The Armed Forces of the Philippines will press the fight,'' Bacarro said, praising the marines' ''gallantry.''

A fragile 2003 cease-fire with the secessionist rebels - who have been fighting for a separate Muslim homeland in the country's south for more than 30 years - was shaken last month by the July 10 gun battle.

A military investigation blamed the rebels and Abu Sayyaf militants for the killings.

The MILF said its own investigation showed it was a ''legitimate encounter'' because the marines entered rebel territory without prior coordination. They also denied involvement in the beheadings, but did not say who was responsible.

Chief MILF negotiator Mohagher Iqbal told The Associated Press that the MILF and government have agreed that MILF rebels will stay in a designated area during military operations so as not to be mistaken for Abu Sayyaf militants. - AP ArticlesMedia Links

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/56660/15-Marines-copter-pilot-killed-fighting-Abu-Sayyaf-in-Basilan

.

Video LinK in renewed fighting in Basilan.

http://www.gmanews.tv/smallvideo/home/10569/15-Marines-40-Abu-Sayyaf-killed-in-Basilan-clash

TheAvenger

August 18th, 2007, 04:19 PM

One of two military rocket-firing helicopters providing aerial support to government forces fighting Muslim rebels in Basilan crashed late Saturday, killing on the spot its pilot, GMA News Flash Report said.

The same report said the co-pilot of the ill-fated MG520 helicopter gunship survived the crash. The name of the fatality was withheld by military authorities pending notification of his family, the report added.

you may read further on below web link:

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/56655/AFP-chopper-in-Basilan-offensive-crashes-pilot-killed

TheAvenger

August 18th, 2007, 09:51 PM

By Julie Alipala, Inquirer Mindanao, Alcuin Papa
Inquirer
Last updated 00:46am (Mla time) 08/19/2007

ZAMBOANGA CITY -- “They were very brave even in the face of death,” a local town mayor said of the Marine officers who fell while leading an attack by government troops on a major encampment of the extremist Abu Sayyaf on Basilan island early Saturday here.

Five officers and 10 enlisted men died in almost nine hours of close-quarters combat which ended with the Abu Sayyaf camp in Silangkum, Ungkaya Pukan, being taken by government forces.

A helicopter gunship pilot was also killed.

“Nobody moved back. Even when they were already wounded, they continued the assault. Their lives were not wasted,” said Ungkaya Pukan Mayor Joel Maturan, who led a reinforcement group of 40 militiamen.

“The Marines’ display of unwavering gallantry in this engagement is commendable. In the face of danger they did not waver. Their dedication to accomplish their mission prevailed over any other consideration,” said Armed Forces spokesperson Lt. Bartolome Bacarro.

Nine soldiers were also wounded in the day-long fighting that ended only at 5 p.m. when an Air Force helicopter providing air support crashed near Al-Barka town (formerly Tipo-Tipo).

Yoy may read further on below link :

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view_article.php?article_id=83383

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VIDEO LINK :

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/latest/10583/No-let-up-in-Basilan-war-despite-casualties

.

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/latest/10583/No-let-up-in-Basilan-war-despite-casualties

TheAvenger

August 18th, 2007, 09:57 PM

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On the ground, Jolo teems with the sounds of war but its skyline is defined by the serenity of the Masjid Tulay mosque towering above the residential and commercial structures in the heart of downtown. EDWIN BACASMAS

VIDEO LINK :

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/latest/10578/Diseases-afflict-children-at-evacuation-center

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TheAvenger

August 19th, 2007, 09:59 AM

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These Philippine Marines are not scouring for enemies or looking for abandoned firearms, bombs or ammunition. They are engrossed in searching for edible plants like "pako" or fern for their sustenance. In between breaks, Marines find time to search for food within the surroundings where they are presently assigned. INQUIRER

TheAvenger

August 19th, 2007, 03:26 PM

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A soldier stands guard at a chapel inside a Philippine Marines base in Zamboanga City where flag-draped coffins of slain Marines are laid on Sunday. AP

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
08/19/2007 | 02:08 PM

AFP starts bombing Abu lairs in Basilan; hospitals on alert

The military started bombarding at least three Abu Sayyaf positions in Basilan province with 105-mm howitzers starting early Sunday morning, even as government officials described operations in nearby Sulu as "fluid." All hospitals in Basilan remain on Code White or 24/7 alert status.

The military started bombarding at least three Abu Sayyaf positions in Basilan province with 105-mm howitzers starting early Sunday morning, even as government officials described operations in nearby Sulu as "fluid."

According to the National Disaster Coordinating Council (NDCC), the bombarding started 6:30 a.m. Sunday, on Abu Sayyaf positions near the boundaries of Tipo-Tipo, Sumisip and Ungkaya Pukan towns.

"At around 6:30 a.m. today, the AFP (using 105-mm howitzer) bombarded ASG positions in said municipalities," it said in a report on its website (www.ndcc.gov.ph).

It added all hospitals in Basilan remain on Code White, meaning all hospital personnel will be on 24/7 alert. Code White had been in effect in hospitals in the province since a deadly encounter last July 10.

On the other hand, the NDCC said the situation remains "very fluid" in Sulu as the military continues to conduct reconnaissance on suspected Abu Sayyaf strongholds in the area.

The NDCC also said the Regional Peace and Order Council and Regional Disaster Coordinating Council of the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao will meet in Makati City on Tuesday, Aug. 21, to tackle the situation of residents displaced by the fighting.

NDCC figures showed the fighting had displaced at least 4,566 families or 23,959 persons from 40 villages in Sulu and Basilan.

In Sulu, affected were 2,775 families or 12,072 residents in 25 villages in Indanan, Parang and Maimbung towns.

In Basilan, affected were 1,791 families or 11,887 persons in 15 villages in the towns of Albarka, Tipo-Tipo, Sumisip and Ungkaya Pukan towns. - GMANews.TV

Video Link :

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10585/5-suspected-Abu-Sayyaf-militants-nabbed-in-Sulu

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10583/No-let-up-in-Basilan-war-despite-casualties

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10580/5-Marine-officials-among-15-fatalities

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10578/Diseases-afflict-children-at-evacuation-center

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TheAvenger

August 20th, 2007, 07:50 AM

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I DO NOT KNOW the dignity of their birth, but I do know the glory of their death. They died unquestioning.” These words of the late Gen. Douglas MacArthur may well refer to these five young military officers slain in clashes with the Abu Sayyaf bandits on Saturday. EDWIN BACASMAS

By Julie Alipala
Mindanao Bureau
Last updated 03:20am (Mla time) 08/20/2007

ZAMBOANGA CITY -- The 15 Marines killed in the latest military debacle on Basilan island were on a test mission as part of their training in close quarters combat, and were mowed down “like sitting ducks” by the Abu Sayyaf after ignoring their guides’ advice on what trail to follow, according to officials.

One of the officials said the Marines might have survived had they listened to their guide’s instructions on how to approach the Abu Sayyaf lair.

A senior Army officer told the Philippine Daily Inquirer that the five junior officers and 10 enlisted personnel killed on Saturday were considered “students” of the Force Reconnaissance Company (FRCoy Class 13) who were completing their training in close quarters combat.

“It was just a test mission,” said the Army officer, who asked not to be identified because of the sensitive position he holds.

This was confirmed by Task Force Thunder chief Brig. Gen. Juancho Sabban, who said the soldiers were part of six teams composed of eight men and an officer which were completing the course.

The military claimed it killed up to 42 Abu Sayyaf men in Saturday’s fighting in the Basilan municipality of Unkaya Pukan.

Unkaya Pukan Mayor Joel Maturan, who joined the operation with 40 militiamen, said the 15 Marines would all still be alive “if they heeded their commanders who told them to listen to their guides.”

Maturan said that a militiaman named Villalobos, who was wounded in the clash, and another militiaman had advised the junior officers not to take the low ground leading to their targets, but a different trail instead.

“What happened was they followed an easier route on low ground,” Maturan said. “The Abu Sayyaf position was about 20 meters high from them ... kaya parang ibon silang ginawang practice shooting ng mga bandido (so they were like sitting ducks that became shooting practice targets of the bandits),” Maturan said.

He said the Abu Sayyaf forces were on a cliff that put them at a vantage point to shoot at the soldiers below.

“If they had followed their guide, they would have surprised the enemy, who had their backs turned to them,” Maturan said.

Maturan said the mission was hatched before Thursday and the troops were supposed to jump off at dawn Thursday. But owing to the delayed arrival of a battalion of soldiers, the Marines moved only on Friday night.

He said the junior officers and their respective teams were to be the “main layer” attackers, while the Special Forces platoons, his team of two militia companies and other units served as second and third layers of the attack.

“The problem was that this first layer was made up purely of young officers. Maiinit ang dugo at matatapang (Hot-blooded and brave). They did not follow the instructions of their commanders and did not heed their guides among the CAFGU (Civilian Armed Forces Geographical Units),” the mayor said.

The ill-fated Class 13 was led by Lt. Ludwig Salvador, who was among those killed.

Sabban said the soldiers were implementing the mission as part of the offensive against those involved in the July 10 beheading and mutilation of 10 Marines in Al-Barka town.

Sabban said they were able to locate the “beheaders” in their lairs in Sitio Kurellem in the village of Silangkong in Unkaya Pukan town.

“So we decided to conduct an all-out offensive using the Force Recon Class 13 as main effort, backed up by special operations platoons,” he said.

But Sabban admitted that the Abu Sayyaf camp was a mountain lair.

“It was a fortress,” he said.

During the firefight, the soldiers had to clear houses and bunkers where the bandits were holed up, according to Sabban.

“I guess during this firefight they came in close quarters battle with the enemy, which was fighting inside the ASG camp,” he said.

Maturan said all the five Marine officers were already dead before 7 a.m. Saturday.

“They were not able to enter the ASG camp, only the second and third layers did. Some were there to retrieve the dead, while the others continued with the fighting. That’s what really happened,” Maturan said.

The military earlier claimed those killed had been able to take over the camp.

Maturan said the fighting lasted until 3 p.m.

“Next time, the soldiers should listen to their guides,” he said.

Sabban said he was taking full responsibility for what happened.

“There are no excuses. We accomplished our mission. I will take responsibility for whatever my men did and whatever they failed to do,” he said.

“We provided everything [this time]. There were no more miscommunication, no wrong frequency, no faulty mortars,” Sabban said, referring to reported military lapses which led to the July 10 ambush in Basilan, in which 14 Marines were killed, 10 of whom were beheaded.

“We did our best. Our men fought gallantly and we accomplished our mission,” Sabban stressed.

But Sabban admitted he was also sad over what happened because he lost “good soldiers that were war veterans.”

He said Salvador was among the soldiers responsible for the killing of Abu Sayyaf leader Khadaffy Janjalani in Luba Hills in Patikul town last year.

The Class 13 soldiers were also involved in the killing of Aldam Tilao, alias Abu Sabaya, the Abu Sayyaf spokesperson, in Zamboanga del Norte province.

“Unfortunately, we pay dearly for getting the beheaders of the Marines,” Sabban said.

MG-520 grounded

The Philippine Air Force has grounded its fleet of attack helicopters as it probed Saturday’s deadly crash of an MG-520 gunship during the nine-hour battle with the Abu Sayyaf.

Air Force chief Lt. Gen. Horacio Tolentino said he had ordered the grounding of the 17 remaining MG-520s while the PAF was looking into the cause of the crash.

The crash claimed the life of 2nd Lt. Claudio Odaondo, the first casualty of the Air Force since the government began its full-blown attack on the bandit group in the south.

Tolentino said that in mid-flight the gunship’s fuel filter light on the instrument panel lit up, indicating there might have been a problem in the fuel line, Tolentino said.

He denied the chopper was felled by enemy fire.

Tolentino said the helicopter tried to reach an island across enemy territory but failed to reach the shore, crashing into shallow waters.

Col. Reynaldo Ramirez, commander of the 3rd Tactical Operations Wing of the PAF, said the helicopter suffered mechanical failure at a height of 3,000 feet “while they were about to return to base after delivering aerial fire support to the troops.”

“At that altitude I don’t think they were hit by enemy fire. It was mechanical trouble so the pilots decided to do a beached landing,” Ramirez said. With a report from Tarra Quismundo

Video
http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10580/5-Marine-officials-among-15-fatalities

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/10606/AFP-says-Basilan-offensive-has-broken-Abu-Sayyaf

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/10593/AFP-Sulu-operations-net-5-suspected-Abus

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/10592/AFP-Basilan-offensive-paralyzed-ASGs

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/10585/5-suspected-Abu-Sayyaf-militants-nabbed-in-Sulu

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/10583/No-let-up-in-Basilan-war-despite-casualties

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/10569/15-Marines-40-Abu-Sayyaf-killed-in-Basilan-clash

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dancethingy

August 20th, 2007, 11:00 AM

@ coco, the conflict in mindanao can be left to the people of mindanao, but i honestly don't believe the province has the resources to solve the problem due to the radicalism that infects some parts of the province.

I am in support of this battle against the abu sayyaf, may they be wiped of the face of the earth.

HR advocates silent on beheadings

Inquirer
Last updated 01:15am (Mla time) 08/20/2007

MANILA, Philippines -- I just want to share my feelings and thoughts in relation to the beheading of Marines in Basilan. The reaction from almost all sectors of society was one of outrage and condemnation.

But the voice of one sector was missing. Where was the voice of the so-called human rights advocates? We didn’t hear a word from them about the mutilation of our soldiers. I cannot understand their silence over the incident even as the families of the fallen soldiers are grieving and crying for justice.

More often, these human rights advocates are so vigorous in denouncing government soldiers accused of human rights violations. But they are so silent when it is the rebels who are implicated in such abuses.

These advocates betray the international law on human rights when they fail to stand up for the rights of all abused and to condemn the act and the perpetrator as well. Is their silence not an indication of their kind of justice which is selective? Do we now blame the military or the police if they see these advocates merely as anti-military and anti-police militants?

People must now realize that these advocates are not sincere defenders of human rights.

—CPT. EUGENIO JULIO
C. OSIAS IV,
group commander,
7th Civil Relations Group,
Civil Relations Service,
Armed Force of the Philippines

dancethingy

August 20th, 2007, 11:06 AM

I absolutely find it irresponsible of Biazona and Trillanes to spew abstract, hypothetical situations regarding the beheading of Filipino soldiers in mindanao. The public deserves better than rumours!

Arroyo defends military operations in Basilan

By Michael Lim Ubac
Inquirer
Last updated 07:52pm (Mla time) 08/19/2007

MANILA, Philippines--President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo defended on Sunday the military offensives in troubled parts of Muslim Mindanao following Saturday's major attack by government troops on extremist Abu Sayyaf on Basilan island in which 15 Marine officers and enlisted men died.

Speaking through her spokesperson, President Arroyo said the underlying message as far as Mindanao was concerned was "quite clear."

"Economic development, which we draw from the arsenal of democracy, remains our principal weapon against terrorism," Ms Arroyo was quoted by Press Secretary Ignacio Bunye as saying.

The commander-in-chief said there would be no letup in her administration's renewed offensives to annihilate terrorist cells in the volatile south because it would ultimately lead to peace and progress.

"Ongoing peacekeeping operations against rearguard actions of a despised and defeated group are meant to clear the path for these provinces' journey to peace and progress which terror has delayed for so long," said Arroyo who, however, was careful not to use the word "war" to describe the tense situation in Basilan and Sulu.

Bunye recalled that the President, in a speech before members of the Federation of Philippine Industries, Inc., last week took the occasion to give a report on the security situation in the south.

He said that she had issued the following directives:

* Keep Basilan and Sulu operations firmly controlled to minimize civilian casualties;

* Hold urgent talks with the Moro Islamic Liberation Front under the auspices of the Malaysian government;

* Brief the OIC (Organization of Islamic Conference) Committee of Eight on Mindanao developments, underlining both the limited military operations and the continuing peace and development efforts, including huge outlays in the 2007 and 2008 budgets for Mindanao;

* Harness the Bishops-Ulama Conference and other religious and civil society groups for peace efforts;

* Accelerate and develop initiatives in the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao, especially high-profile public works and social programs, including health, housing, livelihood and Muslim education.

However, Presidential Legal Adviser Sergio Apostol minced no words in describing the situation in the south as a war.

Asked about the timeliness of the Senate inquiry on the matter, Apostol said: "It is not wise because the AFP (Armed Forces of the Philippines ) and the Republic are facing a war in the south and it is not good to destabilize the unity or stability of the AFP."

"We're having a war. Have they considered the consequences of their actions? They're undermining the morale of our armed forces," said Apostol.

He said he felt sad because when opposition senators "took their oath as elected senators of this country, they vowed to respect and honor the Constitution and preserve the stability of this government. But it seemed they have their own agenda."

Apostol made it clear that the opposition could attack the administration, "criticize us on our every action but not destroy the stability of this government … we have to remind them that if this government falls, they would also fall."

TheAvenger

August 20th, 2007, 08:58 PM

By Julie Alipala, Christine Avendaño
Inquirer, Mindanao Bureau
Last updated 01:36am (Mla time) 08/21/2007

MANILA, Philippines -- The military Monday spurned Church calls for an end to its bloody offensive against the Abu Sayyaf, even as comrades of 15 Marines killed in clashes with the bandit group last weekend revealed that they had fought with Moro gunmen as young as 15 years old.

Amid outrage in the government over the recent series of military setbacks in Mindanao, hundreds of mourners buried at noon a 22-year-old Army lieutenant slain in a separate gun battle with the bandit group in Sulu province 10 days ago.

Second Lt. Charlie Anthony Camelon was laid to rest in his hometown of Mauban, Quezon, to the sobbing of grieving relatives, the roll of drums and a bugler’s playing of “taps.”

“The operations will continue unabated, unceasing,” Defense Secretary Gilbert Teodoro told reporters.

“We have to apply the law. The instruction of the President is to continue the preparation for the total security of Mindanao.”

Teodoro spoke as a C-130 transport plane carrying the bodies of 13 of the 15 soldiers killed in clashes with the Abu Sayyaf last weekend arrived at Villamor Air Base in Pasay City Monday night.

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“I understand the position of the bishops but we must also understand that we are fighting terrorists here,” Armed Forces Chief of Staff Gen. Hermogenes Esperon said. “There’s no way but to continue the operations against the Abu Sayyaf.”

“We will explain our position to the bishops,” Esperon added.

Teodoro and Esperon made the statements after Basilan’s Roman Catholic Bishop Martin Jumoad and a nationwide association of priests and nuns appealed to President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo for an end to the bloodbath. The bishop said the death of the young soldiers -- ranging in age from 22 to 24 -- was a waste of lives.

In Zamboanga City, 2nd Lt. Jordan Argete, who was with the Marines killed in Saturday’s Basilan battle, admitted to reporters that the Abu Sayyaf had the edge of fighting from high ground, were “fully armed with heavy type of weapons and they were all young, as young as 15 years old.”

Argete and fellow Marine officers 1st Lt. Rowan Rimas and 2nd Lt. Paolo Jose Jandusay denied they were caught “like sitting ducks” during the Basilan clash, as a town mayor had recounted on tape to the Philippine Daily Inquirer, parent company of INQUIRER.net.

Rimas admitted that he and his men were in a “dehado (disadvantaged) situation” when they encountered the bandit group linked to Osama bin Laden’s global terror network.

Familiar with terrain

Jandusay said: “The enemy had memorized the terrain, it was their area.”

Western Mindanao Command chief Lt. Gen. Eugenio Cedo lashed out at the Inquirer for reporting the lapses in Saturday’s clash in Unkaya Pukan town in Basilan.

Instead of explaining the factors behind the biggest number of casualties under his watch -- a total of seven officers and 50 enlisted personnel killed a little over a month -- Cedo ignored questions from reporters and called the Inquirer report incorrect.

Cedo left immediately without taking his angry eyes off the Inquirer correspondent as the other reporters fell quiet at the general’s outburst.

In Manila, opposition Sen. Francis Escudero called on Ms Arroyo to fire incompetent and disloyal officers to ensure “tangible results” from the continued deployment of warm bodies to Mindanao.

“They should sack incompetent and disloyal officers, should there be any. Another is to investigate thoroughly all government officials, elected or appointed, for complicity with the enemy, however close they may be to the administration party.”

Sen. Rodolfo Biazon blamed defective weapons and poor intelligence for the military debacles, while jailed Sen. Antonio Trillanes IV claimed some officials whom he did not identify had connived with the enemy, dooming the Marines in Basilan.

Relatives sobbed as a priest blessed each casket. Other grieving relatives, kept in the terminal, peeked through glass windows.

Alex Vergara, father of the slain Marine Danilo, did not want to believe his son was dead until he saw the casket for himself.

“When I saw him, I had no choice but to accept it, even if it’s very painful,” he said. With reports from Michael Lim Ubac and Tarra Quismundo

you may read further on below weblinks

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/nation/view_article.php?article_id=83723

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DOWNED CHOPPER. Soldiers examine the wreckage of an MG-520 attack helicopter on a wharf in Zamboanga city after it was recovered. The helicopter crashed after providing ground support to was sent to back up troops battling Abu Sayyaf fighters in nearby Basilan Saturday, in which 15 Marines, including five officers, and dozens of extremists were killed. AFP/THERENCE KOH

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VIDEO LINKS :http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/latest/10643/Saksi-Assault-vs-Abu-Sayyaf-continues-despite-govt-casualties

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/latest/10636/Heroes'-welcome-for-troopers-slain-in-Basilan

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/10636/Heroes'-welcome-for-troopers-slain-in-Basilan

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/10625/Relatives-grieve-for-fallen-Marines

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/10624/Marines-honor-comrades-slain-in-Basilan-assault

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/10623/Marines-to-intensify-campaign-vs-Abu-Sayyaf

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/10614/QTV-Marines-slain-in-Basilan-arrive-at-Wesmincom

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/10609/Soldiers-slain-in-Basilan-will-be-brought-to-Marines-HQ

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/10606/AFP-says-Basilan-offensive-has-broken-Abu-Sayyaf

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/10593/AFP-Sulu-operations-net-5-suspected-Abus

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/10592/AFP-Basilan-offensive-paralyzed-ASGs

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beads_strawberries

August 21st, 2007, 05:28 AM

^^ I guess our soldiers are now more resolved to fight and put an end in this war. The lives of their mistahs were sacrificed. More than that, the lives of the people that were affected due to this clash have really sacrificed a lot. In fact, the future of the youth is very much affected in the clash.

More than vengeance, the soldiers are doing their duty to defend the people from greater harm. I hope these rebels and terrorists will be dissolved.

zeejay

August 21st, 2007, 07:43 AM

Nothing can boost the morale of our young soldiers at this time. Having a huge number of casualty in very close incidents, the soldiers, especially the classes of the young officers have a very "low morale". It is really saddening to hear of such bad news especially if it comes one after the other. The Mindanao offensives have just started last week and here we are, we already lost so many lives. It is now clear as to who is the enemy, it is the Abu Sayaff. The MILF and the MNLF are still there, but it is the ASG who has caused this loss among our brave soldiers.

The President's declaration of an all out offensive in Sulu and Basilan needs the support of all the sectors in society. In order for the loss to end, the battle should also end. It would only end when the enemies have fallen. Our soldiers know that, they know what they are to do. And right now, they all the more want to crush the ASG into pieces.

Lucentino

August 21st, 2007, 07:52 AM

^^ With such a poor showing, I wonder if RP's neighboring countries would fear RP Armed Forces...

TheAvenger

August 21st, 2007, 12:19 PM

^^ With such a poor showing, I wonder if RP's neighboring countries would fear RP Armed Forces...

I guess Malaysia and Indoneisan armed forces has no real to life - actual combat experiences. for Indonesia no combat battle for about 25 years since the Timor Leste war. their combat experience in Aceh about 10 years ago was more like police actions.

Malaysian armed forces no actual combat experiences since 1965 during Indonesian confrontation, but that time the British and Australian Army were doing the fighting.

They should fear our armed forces since in a different battlegrounds the civilians do not belong to them. The Moros were also wary of the Malaysians who treated them like criminals in Sabah, in Sabah the Chinese and Indians were the one controlling the economy and government.

Dapat nga pag natapos ang bakbakan sa Mindanao and Sulu, simulan na ng ating gobyerno ang pagbawi at pagsalakay sa Sabah. By that time MNLF and MILF shall be completely integrated in our Armed Forces, and we needed another war to keep them occupied. :)

TheAvenger

August 21st, 2007, 08:58 PM

08/21/2007 | 08:20 PM

The Marine commandant declared as graduates Force Reconnaissance class number 13, which fought Abu Sayyaf bandits in Ungkaya Pukan town in the island-province of Basilan last Saturday that left dead 15 “students," including five young lieutenants.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/0820_zambo.jpg

“They are already graduates of that course. The remaining officers and men will be distributed to the regular companies of the Force Recon," said Philippine Marines Corps commandant Major General Nelson Allaga.

The Force Recon Battalion is the Philippine Marine Corps’ main special forces unit and is comprised of four companies, each with about a hundred men. Those who want to join the unit undergo an intensive six-month training that culminates in a "test mission."

The assault on the Abu Sayyaf camp was Force Recon class no. 13’s test mission. Only 29 of the 44-man class survived the clash.

Allaga commended the class for Saturday’s operation that resulted in the death of at least 42 Abu Sayyaf members, including brothers Furuji and Umair Indama.

The military said the Indamas were recognized Abu Sayyaf leaders who among those who beheaded 10 of 14 Marines killed in an earlier clash in Al-Barkah town in Basilan last July 10.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/prayers.jpg

"These fallen Marine heroes have accomplished their mission. They got the Abu Sayayf camp. Unfortunately, we really paid a dear price, we paid a price here, but many of them (Abu Sayyaf) got killed also," said Allaga.

He said that those in the Force Recon class are not neophyte soldiers, noting that these have completed the Marine Officers Basic Course for officers, and the Marine Basic Warrior Course for enlisted personnel.

The Marine commandant said the corps would still review their training doctrine because of the high number of casualties.

But Allaga maintained that there will still be a test mission after training.

“That will remain because that’s the test, that is the final test. They should engage (enemies)…This is the culmination (of their training)," he said.

The Force Recon class was accompanied by elements of the 64th Force Recon Company in the bloody firefight that started early in the morning and lasted through the evening.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/lastsalute.jpg

Some 40 Abu Sayyaf members are believed to have fled after Marines overran their camp.

Ten members of Force Recon class no. 13 were also wounded in the clash. -GMANews.TV

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/57064/Elite-units-students-in-Basilan-clash-now-graduates---Marine-chief

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http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/homage.jpg

HOMAGE FROM A FORMER CHIEF. Senator Rodolfo Biazon, a former AFP chief and Marine commandant, joins military honors for 13 of 15 Marines killed in an encounter with the Abu Sayyaf in Basilan on August 18. INQUIRER.net/JOEL GUINTO

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/flag.jpg

Relatives mourn over the flag-draped casket of 2Lt. Ludwig Salvador upon arrival at the Villamor Air Base in Pasay City Monday. AP

VIDEO LINKS :

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10685/Saksi-Vigil-for-slain-Marines-starts-at-Fort-Bonifacio

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10684/Saksi-Bomb-explodes-in-Zamboanga-City

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10671/MILF-forces-to-move-on-neutral-ground-amid-attack-vs-Sayyaf

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10669/Casulaties-of-Basilan-assault-given-full-military-honors

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10662/PNP-alerts-Metro-Manila-vs-terrorism

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http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10661/PAF-prepares-bomber-planes-for-Basilan-Sulu-offensive

TheAvenger

August 21st, 2007, 09:37 PM

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http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/arroyomourns.jpg

SYMPATHY. President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo consoles relatives of Marines slain in battle with the Abu Sayyaf in Basilan last Saturday. The remains of 13 of the 15 fallen soldiers are at the Bonifacio Naval Station gymnasium in Fort Bonifacio. INQUIRER.net/Joel Guinto

By Joel Guinto
INQUIRER.net
Last updated 06:58pm (Mla time) 08/21/2007

MANILA, Philippines -- President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo condoled with the families of 13 of the 15 Marines who were killed in an encounter with the Abu Sayyaf in Basilan last Saturday.

Wearing a black dress, Arroyo talked to each of the relatives and looked at the caskets at the Philippine Marines’ Gymnasium at the Fort Bonifacio in Taguig City.

Arroyo was with Defense Secretary Gilberto Teodoro, AFP Chief Hermogenes Esperon Jr., Navy Chief Rogelio Calunsag, outgoing Army Chief Romeo Tolentino, Air Force Chief Horacio Tolentino, and Marine Commandant Nelson Allaga.

Arroyo was at wake for 30 minutes and then proceeded to Villamor Air Base to attend another wake -- that of an Air Force pilot who was also killed after his helicopter crashed Saturday in Basilan.

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/nation/view_article.php?article_id=83870

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/copter.jpg

Navy men try to salvage a MG-520 attack helicopter which crashed on Saturday while on a mission against Abu Sayyaf members in Basilan. AP

TheAvenger

August 21st, 2007, 10:53 PM

.

Slain Marines honored at Fort Bonifacio

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/video1.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/video2.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/video3.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/video4.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/video7.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/video9.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/video12.jpg

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/10655/Marines-slain-in-Basilan-get-full-honors

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10654/Slain-Marines-honored-at-Fort-Bonifacio

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TheAvenger

August 21st, 2007, 10:56 PM

.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/wake1.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/wake1a.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/wake1b.jpg

[http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/wake2.jpg

VIDEO LINKS :

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10685/Saksi-Vigil-for-slain-Marines-starts-at-Fort-Bonifacio

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10669/Casulaties-of-Basilan-assault-given-full-military-honors

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10691/PAF-prepares-bomber-planes-for-Basilan-Sulu-offensive

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tigidig14

August 21st, 2007, 11:53 PM

ayan ba yung mga namatay na katatapos lans sa PMA
mga engot kasi satin alam na ngang katatapos lang sa eskwela pinangbabakbak agad.

TheAvenger

August 22nd, 2007, 12:04 AM

ayan ba yung mga namatay na katatapos lans sa PMA
mga engot kasi satin alam na ngang katatapos lang sa eskwela pinangbabakbak agad.

regrettable that new graduates of PMA were sent to combat zones for test mission.

but if these PMAers survive the war in Mindanao they can get fast promotions in the ranks.

.

marxman

August 22nd, 2007, 01:36 AM

thats the way it is!!!

Lucentino

August 22nd, 2007, 03:11 AM

---
They should fear our armed forces since in a different battlegrounds the civilians do not belong to them.
---

How about the US, British, Australian armed forces? Do you think RP military gained their respect after those failures in Basilan?

With the world watching the developments in Sulu archipelago, does it prove to the world that our Military officers are good tacticians? That they can get the job done --- with limited resources, the objectives can be achieved, but at a high price?

Does the Filipino populace accept this war? Does it ignite their patriotic fire? Does the populace know that RP military is hadicapped with equipment?

What are the use of those Politician's and General's/Admiral's mansions and luxury vehicles in contributing to the cause of this war? Will the cars serve as ambulance and the mansions as refuge to the displaced families?

My salute to those brave soldiers --- I hope they could come back to their families after finishing off their mission.

---
Dapat nga pag natapos ang bakbakan sa Mindanao and Sulu, simulan na ng ating gobyerno ang pagbawi at pagsalakay sa Sabah. By that time MNLF and MILF shall be completely integrated in our Armed Forces, and we needed another war to keep them occupied. :)

But do you think at that point in time the military already have the right equipment to be able to take back Sabah?

Animo

August 22nd, 2007, 03:29 AM

Likewise I want to counter the propaganda of the rebels from MILF that they were of separate nation, a Bangsa Moro hence they should be given independence. No they were not separate nations from the rest of the Phuilippine Archipelago because of the fact that before the Spaniards arrived in our shore, Manila was a Muslim Suiltanate under Raja Soliman. And the Tagalog region and the Visayas was also of Muslim faith. It means that before the Spaniards arriver in the Philippines our archipelago was of one race and of one group. Of course it is difficult to say we are of one nation if we based on the modern definition of a Nation.

This is actually quite false. Manila may have been a moslem settlement but it was not fully establish like the Sultanates of Jolo and Maguindanao of Mindanao. We were never fully a nation before the arrival of the Spaniards because we did not belong in an ideology of: "one race, one nation, one faith". We belong in different warring nations that have territorial conflicts like other imperial nations. Most of the people in pre-hispanic Philippines were pagans. Islam and Christianity are both conquerors.

Let us compare the Bisayans who were famous for their tattoos - called by the Spanish as "Pintados" and they ranged far and wide to capture slaves either to serve in their households or to serve as sacrificial victims when a nobleman died. This was noted by the Jesuit Ignacio Alcina (1668), who lived among the Visayans, mentions that a major test for a man was to roam as far as China hunting for people to capture.

Let me shared my views on the topic which is highlighted in Red.

The conflict in the south was due to the radicalism of our Muslim Filipino which can be traced in the sufferings and injustices under the hands of the Spaniards and American colonizer. The other reasons for the radicalim of our brother Filipino Muslim was due to the lost of their ancestral lands to the Christians from Luzon and the Visayas.

The Americans started this transmigration of Christian settlers from Luzon and Visayas to MIndanao and after the Japanese War (WW II) the Philippine government embarked on grandscale transmigration of Christians to Mindanao backed by Armed Forces.

And later the descendants of this mentioned Christian settlers from the North who was transmigrated to Mindanao, have the ingratitude to even think of separating from the Republic of the Philippines as per previous discussions in previous SSC Thread which is related to the Mindano conflict,

Now these descendants of Christian settlers from the Visayas and Luzon have the guts to say that they can stand on their own on dealing with the political problems of Muslims of Mindanao who were now occupying a small porton of Western Mindanao.

However, the greater portion of Mindanao has always been Bisaya even before hispanization. The Spanish even recorded that the inhabitants of Northern Mindanao calls themselves "Bisayans". That is why in Mindanao our language is called "Bisaya" although its rightfull term would be "Cebuano". Christian Filipinos have already existed even long before the American era.

But I agree with you that a massive influx of Christian settlers did arrive in Mindanao during the Commonwealth period. You can see the names of the places in the island and very little are of Arabic in orgin.

Animo

August 22nd, 2007, 03:30 AM

By KATHERINE ADRANEDA
The Philippine Star

Activists are hoping that the writ of amparo will deliver justice to their colleagues who are victims of what they believe are state-sanctioned abductions and executions.

The Supreme Court (SC) is expected to release the writ’s final version next month.

The introduction of the writ of amparo into the country’s legal system was a result of the SC-initiated summit on the unexplained killings.

The writ of amparo aims to give more protection to the constitutional rights of a person since the petition for habeas corpus has been considered “weak” in compelling the state to produce persons thought to be victims of enforced disappearances.

The writ of amparo was first adopted in Mexico in 1857. Amparo is a Spanish word that literally means “protection.”

“We welcome this new development,” said Rafael Mariano, chairman of the Kilusang Magbubukid ng Pilipinas (KMP) and concurrent president of the Anakpawis party-list group.

“We just hope that it can deliver justice to our comrades who have become victims of enforced disappearances and extrajudicial executions by government forces. The military establishment can no longer just deny any involvement in these cases and get away with it. Justice must be served,” he added.

Chief Justice Reynato Puno has explained that through the writ of amparo, the military will not be able to evade culpability for unexplained killings and forced disappearances by merely denying that it is holding in custody missing or disappeared persons.

Puno said the writ would strip the military of such a defense.

He explained that families of victims would also be given the right to access information relevant to their cases. This constitutional right is called the “habeas data,” which is said to be common in several countries in Latin America.

Militants expressed support for Puno’s suggestion that the writ of amparo be made retroactive.

However, they urged the SC to, at the very least, include cases of enforced disappearances and political killings from 2001 or when President Arroyo assumed office.

“We have high hopes for the writ of amparo but we know that government forces will try other means to circumvent the law and attack us,” Mariano said.

“So even with the writ our vigilance must always be high and our resolve to work for justice and real democracy continue to be strong because in the end it’s the militancy of the mass movement and the awakened people which is decisive in safeguarding our rights,” he added.

The KMP claimed that more than half of all the victims of political killings and abductions in the country are peasants, and their members.

Human rights groups estimated that the number of victims of political killings and abductions by alleged agents of the state have already reached more than 800.

Militants consider the writ of amparo as “another weapon” to defend civil liberties and democratic rights amid the implementation of the Human Security Act, or anti-terror law.

They believe that the writ could also be used to guard against human rights abuses.

Puno said agents of governments will be ordered by the court to locate the alleged victims, and the court will closely monitor their movement.

“We will set up a standard for them (government agents) to follow. And if they cannot come up or satisfy this standard, then there would be proper relieves that can be granted by the court,” Puno said.

Puno was the guest of honor and speaker during the ninth anniversary of the Volunteers Against Crime and Corruption (VACC) at the Philippine National Police (PNP) headquarters at Camp Crame in Quezon City last Friday.

“We already have the first draft of the writ of amparo. We hope to finish this by next month,” Puno said.

“In a lot of instances, they are able to get away with it,” he said. “In other words, if you have this right, it would be very, very difficult for state agents and state authorities to be able to escape from their culpability.”

Puno was apparently referring to the case of Jonas Burgos, who has remained missing since his reported abduction last April 28.

His mother petitioned for a writ of habeas corpus before the court but the military maintained that the son of press freedom icon Joe Burgos was not in its custody.

Puno said whether the new rule can be retroactive would be subject to the approval of the members of the court. “But there is no legal impediment to making the new rule retroactive. Remedial measures, as a general proposition, can be made retroactive without violating any constitutional provision,” he said. – With Cecille Suerte Felipe

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/storypage.aspx?StoryId=89030

lochinvar

August 22nd, 2007, 04:53 AM

"How about the US, British, Australian armed forces? Do you think RP military gained their respect after those failures in Basilan?"

During the American Civil War, General Pickett's entire division was totally annihilated. Yet after the war, he was offered by the Khedive of Egypt to train the latter's army.

In another case, China tried to teach Vietnam a lesson. In the end, the teachers came back limping and badly defeated. :bash: :bash:

zeejay

August 22nd, 2007, 05:14 AM

ayan ba yung mga namatay na katatapos lans sa PMA
mga engot kasi satin alam na ngang katatapos lang sa eskwela pinangbabakbak agad.

The Marine officers who were killed last Saturday were not fresh graduates from the Philippine Military Academy. The news reporters did not even bother to check the accuracy of their report. Four of the fallen Marine officers are members of the PMA Mandala Class of 2006 and the other one 2Lt. Salvador is a member of the PMA Sanlingan Class of 2005. They have graduated from the academy and as part of further training in their branch of service, they undergo series of trainings. Of course they have already finished the Basic Marine Officers Course. What happened last Saturday was a test mission, to which they are aided by regular Force Recon companies. Unfortunately, the officers and their men died in the encounter with the ASG.

TheAvenger

August 22nd, 2007, 05:14 AM

This is actually quite false. Manila may have been a moslem settlement but it was not fully establish like the Sultanates of Jolo and Maguindanao of Mindanao. We were never fully a nation before the arrival of the Spaniards because we did not belong in an ideology of: "one race, one nation, one faith". We belong in different warring nations that have territorial conflicts like other imperial nations. Most of the people in pre-hispanic Philippines were pagans. Islam and Christianity are both conquerors.

Let us compare the Bisayans who were famous for their tattoos - called by the Spanish as "Pintados" and they ranged far and wide to capture slaves either to serve in their households or to serve as sacrificial victims when a nobleman died. This was noted by the Jesuit Ignacio Alcina (1668), who lived among the Visayans, mentions that a major test for a man was to roam as far as China hunting for people to capture.

However, the greater portion of Mindanao has always been Bisaya even before hispanization. The Spanish even recorded that the inhabitants of Northern Mindanao calls themselves "Bisayans". That is why in Mindanao our language is called "Bisaya" although its rightfull term would be "Cebuano". Christian Filipinos have already existed even long before the American era.

But I agree with you that a massive influx of Christian settlers did arrive in Mindanao during the Commonwealth period. You can see the names of the places in the island and very little are of Arabic in orgin.

This is actually quite false. Manila may have been a moslem settlement but it was not fully establish like the Sultanates of Jolo and Maguindanao of Mindanao. We were never fully a nation before the arrival of the Spaniards because we did not belong in an ideology of: "one race, one nation, one faith". We belong in different warring nations that have territorial conflicts like other imperial nations. Most of the people in pre-hispanic Philippines were pagans. Islam and Christianity are both conquerors

in that case we can say Manila, cetral luzon, southern luzon , and other part of luzon was a part of the Sultanatte of Sulu, therefore we belong to their Bangsa Moro Nation.

so they can not just separate and declare a separate nation, since the Sultanatte of Sulu and the moslem settlement of Manila including other Luzon provinces was a part of the Bangsa Moro nation which have one one race, one nation, and one faith, before the Spaniards arrived in our shore.

don't tell me that you are infavor of letting them separate. anyhow I don't expect too much from the foreign-born Pinoy or Pinoy with foreign citizenship to be as nationalistic as we are the native born Pinoy. :)

according to Bush statement :
" If you are not with us.... then you are against us " :jk:

However, the greater portion of Mindanao has always been Bisaya even before hispanization. The Spanish even recorded that the inhabitants of Northern Mindanao calls themselves "Bisayans". That is why in Mindanao our language is called "Bisaya" although its rightfull term would be "Cebuano". Christian Filipinos have already existed even long before the American era.

the above statement is another proof that our brother Muslims cannot just separate even the western part of Mindanap from us, for their dreams of an Islamic Republic.

tigidig14

August 22nd, 2007, 05:45 AM

dapat ine-air recon/raid tapos bagsakan lahat ng bomba
kahit hindi fair

TheAvenger

August 22nd, 2007, 05:58 AM

@lochinvar and
How about the US, British, Australian armed forces? Do you think RP military gained their respect after those failures in Basilan?

With the world watching the developments in Sulu archipelago, does it prove to the world that our Military officers are good tacticians? That they can get the job done --- with limited resources, the objectives can be achieved, but at a high price?

Does the Filipino populace accept this war? Does it ignite their patriotic fire? Does the populace know that RP military is hadicapped with equipment?

What are the use of those Politician's and General's/Admiral's mansions and luxury vehicles in contributing to the cause of this war? Will the cars serve as ambulance and the mansions as refuge to the displaced families?

My salute to those brave soldiers --- I hope they could come back to their families after finishing off their mission.

But do you think at that point in time the military already have the right equipment to be able to take back Sabah?

How about the US, British, Australian armed forces? Do you think RP military gained their respect after those failures in Basilan?

Who cares about them, the Americans and the Australians lost the guerilla war in Vietnam. The British not even win the guerillar war in Northern Ireland against the IRA, though they used modern weapons and equipments. So they settled for a peace agreement with the IRA. Those 3 nations were good in conventional warfare but not in guerrila warfares.

Perhaps we should invite them to do the combat duty in Basilan and Sulu without using their heavy bombers and jetplanes, and let's see if they can last for a year.

With the world watching the developments in Sulu archipelago, does it prove to the world that our Military officers are good tacticians? That they can get the job done --- with limited resources, the objectives can be achieved, but at a high price?

who cares what will they say... we cannot do anything if we will always think of what the world will say.

Does the Filipino populace accept this war? Does it ignite their patriotic fire? Does the populace know that RP military is hadicapped with equipment?

whether we accept or not our country's policy there is no other way but support our soldier in the battlefield since they sacrifice their lives for the territorial integrity of our nation.

Everybody knows our military is handicapped with equipments but that is the best quality of Filipinos can manage to do something in time of distress. I also noticed that when sailing around the world with Filipiino crew, in time of distress you can rely on them especially we are on the same boat.

I even believe that the NPA should make a unilateral ceasefire so that
some of our soldiers can be redeployed to the battlefields in the south. I reckoned some members of the extreme Left were unwise in their dogmatic views. How can they reform our country when and if the country disintegrated because of the moro rebellion, they got no more unified country to reform.

But do you think at that point in time the military already have the right equipment to be able to take back Sabah

Well the Vietnamese guerillas fought with crude military equipment the American forces and they won the Vietnam War. The Paris Treaty between the USSR, Vietnam, and the US was just a face saving measures for the Americans to withdraw quietly.

In Sabah we just needed the unity of Muslims and Christians populations and we can launch a guerilla warfare, with MNLF, MILF and even the Abu Sayaff integrated in our armed forces. Actually some MNLF guerillas were already intergrated in our Armed Forces since about 10 years ago, and some of them were in those AFP troops that fought the Abu Sayaff in Sulu.

Not possible to even think of a conventional warfare against the combined Malaysia, British, and Australian forces ( they have the British Commonwealth Defense Treaty) even if we have modern war equipments. Malaysia has a defense agreement with Australia and UK, so even if UK just sent one of their Aircraft Carrier near Sabah and the Australians even one of their biggest Naval vessel, our Tora Tora Planes and Vietnam-era helicopters will be a real " sitting duck " for them.

Our small vietnam-era Naval crafts and MNLF/MILF/Abu Sayaff kumpits can transport our commandos and volunteers at night to land in Sabah. Then regular troops can follow. In the shallow waters off Eastern coast of Sabah, the big warship of the British Navy cannot operate. In these kind of war with the Philippines and Malaysia, I think Australia will chose a passive role but the Brits we cannot be sure.

Once we regain Sabah through guerilla warfare then we are the de facto government there, and the UN will just agree to recognize it. Possession of the land is 90 percent of the law. :)

masama bang mangarap ?

lochinvar

August 22nd, 2007, 06:26 AM

Lucentino

August 22nd, 2007, 06:38 AM

---

Who cares about them, the Americans and the Australians lost the guerilla war in Vietnam.

---

who cares what will they say... we cannot do anything if we will always think of what the world will say.

---

To gain respect, a person or a group should show that they are respectable.

Anyway, seems like the war planners there cannot create a good strategy to lessen casualties... Or do they really want it that way, so that the populace would side with them to justify this war (which costs taxpayers their hard earned money).

And where are the refurbished attack helo's when we need them? Is it feasible to lease two (2) units of Apaches (including pilots), with night capability, for a week to obliterate the enemy's camps? Perhaps use of drones before attacking would have minimized casualties to the military. One marine officer was interviewed on tv and said they didn't know the terrain very well... sir, did you plan your attack or were you brought in there as tourists?:nuts: I admire your guts to go to war unprepared...

IMO: The money spent for the burial and other expenses for the marines killed in action (I believe its more or less Php15M or $310,000), could have been used to lease drones and other equipment which could have lessen, if not, eliminated military casualties...

The recent Israeli bombing of southern Lebanon, and Army assaults (with MBT's and heavy artillery) to clear the area of Hamas(?) was a real show of force, with drones checking out the enemy and terrain before they attacked. I just dont know how many casualties there were on the Israel army and civilians... There were cassualties, but Hamas(?) are better equipped than Abu Sayyaf...

peace :)

TheAvenger

August 22nd, 2007, 06:38 AM

The Sultan of Sulu lost Sabah to the British, not the Philippine government. He was foolish enough to enter into an agreement with the British without knowing the mechanics of contracts. He was swindled. Don't expect the common mass to shoulder the mistake of his buffonery.

whatever mistakes the Sultan makes.......... if we have Sabah..even if the Sultan will own the public lands.... the billions of Dollars our government can get from Oil revenues is enough to cover all the sacrfices our common masses may do.

and how about the Oil royalties which the Sulu Sultanatte will share to our government treasury.... and then the mines and loggings in the near-virgin forest of Sabah. WOW

Those revenues will make a big differences in our country especially for the region of Sulu, Basilan and Mindanao. Then we can be a strong Republic or a strong Federal Republic. And we may even became a regional power in Southeast Asia. A strong Economy which will result from the Oil revenues, a big population, with a strong Armed Forces.... WOW

Even if 20 percents from these expected Oil and natural resources revenues, were allocated for Luzon and Visayas, it is more than winning the Lotto.

Of course... in these ventures .... some lives maybe lost.....and more heroes will emerge.

TheAvenger

August 22nd, 2007, 06:51 AM

To gain respect, a person or a group should show that they are respectable.

Anyway, seems like the war planners there cannot create a good strategy to lessen casualties... Or do they really want it that way, so that the populace would side with them to justify this war (which costs taxpayers their hard earned money).

And where are the refurbished attack helo's when we need them? Is it feasible to lease two (2) units of Apaches (including pilots), with night capability, for a week to obliterate the enemy's camps? Perhaps use of drones before attacking would have minimized casualties to the military. One marine officer was interviewed on tv and said they didn't know the terrain very well... sir, did you plan your attack or were you brought in there as tourists?:nuts: I admire your guts to go to war unprepared...

IMO: The money spent for the burial and other expenses for the marines killed in action (I believe its more or less Php15M or $310,000), could have been used to lease drones and other equipment which could have lessen, if not, eliminated military casualties...

The recent Israeli bombing of southern Lebanon, and Army assaults (with MBT's and heavy artillery) to clear the area of Hamas(?) was a real show of force, with drones checking out the enemy and terrain before they attacked. I just dont know how many casualties there were on the Israel army and civilians... There were cassualties, but Hamas(?) are better equipped than Abu Sayyaf...

peace :)

i reckoned we cannot say they make a bad or good stratergy... we are not there. we can just comment on things we know little.....since we don't know the real combat situation. About casualtie ... I guess they American forces in Iraq have more casualties..... with all their modern equipments.

the money spent in burials and etc is worth more than the actual amount since it will boast the morale of our troops.

it is much better if you will say that those money kept by corrupt politicians, their commissions and percentages in government projects, those unaccounted Portk barrelas of the Congressmen and Senators, the millions of pesos stolen by Joke Joke Bolante, etc could have been used to lease drones and other equipment which could have lessen, if not, eliminated military casualties...
.

bitoy

August 22nd, 2007, 07:11 AM

whatever mistakes the Sultan makes.......... if we have Sabah..even if the Sultan will own the public lands.... the billions of Dollars our government can get from Oil revenues is enough to cover all the sacrfices our common masses may do.

and how about the Oil royalties which the Sulu Sultanatte will share to our government treasury.... and then the mines and loggings in the near-virgin forest of Sabah. WOW

Those revenues will make a big differences in our country especially for the region of Sulu, Basilan and Mindanao. Then we can be a strong Republic or a strong Federal Republic. And we may even became a regional power in Southeast Asia. A strong Economy which will result from the Oil revenues, a big population, with a strong Armed Forces.... WOW

Even if 20 percents from these expected Oil and natural resources revenues, were allocated for Luzon and Visayas, it is more than winning the Lotto.

Of course... in these ventures .... some lives maybe lost.....and more heroes will emerge.

With the way The Philippine Military and Government officials are acting, the people of Sabah would fight to their death in case the Philippine government would stake a claim on their land.

beads_strawberries

August 22nd, 2007, 07:49 AM

Some of our young officers have sacrificed their lives in line with their duty to protect the people and the State. It's not a easy task. The bereaved families also manifested bravery despite what happened.

It seems the only way to stop this mess is to dissolve the rebels. We cannot demarcate among the terrorists and the rebels, simply because they are helping each other. It looks like there's no other way but to stop those peace negotiations with the MILF.

Lucentino

August 22nd, 2007, 09:33 AM

i reckoned we cannot say they make a bad or good stratergy... we are not there. we can just comment on things we know little.....since we don't know the real combat situation. About casualtie ... I guess they American forces in Iraq have more casualties..... with all their modern equipments.

It is evident the planners are doing a lousy job. How come one of the officers would point out that they didn't know the terrain very well and use it as reason why there are a lot of casualties on their part --- proper planning and use of modern equipment should have helped minimize loses. Baka nasa abroad na ang magagaling na military planners natin...

the money spent in burials and etc is worth more than the actual amount since it will boast the morale of our troops.
.

The soldiers morale gets a boost because they know when they get killed the government would give their widows money and they will get full military honors? I thought they are fighting for love of country and not for the money... Pardon me but I didn't get it, unless your post has a different meaning...

it is much better if you will say that those money kept by corrupt politicians, their commissions and percentages in government projects, those unaccounted Portk barrelas of the Congressmen and Senators, the millions of pesos stolen by Joke Joke Bolante, etc could have been used to lease drones and other equipment which could have lessen, if not, eliminated military casualties...
.

What I wanted to imply is that the Php15M +/- that the government had beforehand should have been used to lease modern equipment. Then the soldier get accustomed to the terrain and casualties could have been lessened or eliminated. Drones could've taken pics of the terrain, bunker possitions (even dropped bombs on the enemy camp) which would have made life easier for the marines...

@TheAvenger, pardon but I think this is the first time I would dis-agree with you, but I respect your take on the matter... peace:)

TheAvenger

August 22nd, 2007, 09:57 AM

[QUOTE]The soldiers morale gets a boost because they know when they get killed the government would give their widows money and they will get full military honors? I thought they are fighting for love of country and not for the money... Pardon

me but I didn't get it, unless your post has a different meaning...[QUOTE]

what I mean is that burial ceremony is a part of our tradition and it does not matter really if the government spent some money on the observance of this tradition.

the money you say needed for military equipment should come from other sources like example : from selling confiscated smuggled Cars, etc. limiting politicians junkets and unnecessary foreign trips.

who cares about money given to their widows.... it is just a pittance to tied them over during the wake and burial.... it is not even enough to cover a poor family's expenses for one month. whether you fight for love of country or not, the family left behind still needed money for expenses.... especially for the solders who mostly came from the poor.

Maxxclip

August 22nd, 2007, 10:01 AM

The best way we can do right now is to pray that this war will last sooner. Let us shows to them that we're not afraid nor threatened by their terrorist acts.

TheAvenger

August 22nd, 2007, 02:39 PM

08/22/2007

A research institute active in monitoring US military actions in the Philippines reported that Washington is building a military base in Mindanao, in contravention of the Philippine Constitution.

Herbert Docena, a research associate with Focus on the Global South, told Adnkronos International (AKI) that there was evidence an American base was being built.

“That is what I believe, I think Washington is in the process of building a military base,” he said on Tuesday.

Focus, a non-government research organization, said on June 6, 2007, the US Naval Facilities Engineering Command (Navfac) awarded a $14.4-million contract to Global Contingency Services LLC of Irving, Texas, for “operations support” for the Joint Special Operations Task Force- Philippines (JSOTF-P).

The JSOTF-P is the unit established by the US special operations command that has been stationed in southern Philippines since 2002.

Its role is to assist Manila in the war on terror with training and intelligence.

“According to its own Web site, Navfac is the unit within the US military in charge of providing the US Navy with operating, support and training bases,” Focus on the Global South said in a statement.

Global Contingency Services LLC is a partnership between DynCorp International, Parsons Global Services and PWC Logistics.

The research institute said the June contract was part of a bigger $450-million, five-year contract for Global Contingency Services to “provide a full range of world-wide contingency and disaster-response services, including humanitarian assistance and interim or transitional base-operating support services.”

”The specific contract for work for the JSOTF-P is expected to be completed in Jan. 2008 but other contracts may follow as part of the $450- million package,” Focus said.

According to Focus research, Docena said, the JSOTF-P “is involved in the Philippine military’s operations in the South, and represents the new low-profile kind of overseas presence that the US has been striving to introduce as part of its comprehensive restructuring of its forward-deployment since 2001.”

This restructuring would see fewer permanent bases and more, smaller bases such as the JSOTF-P’s presence in Zamboanga and in other places in Mindanao.

Both the US and the Philippines have denied reports that a military base is planned or under construction in the country.

The Philippine Constitution does not allow foreign troops to be stationed permanently in the country.

The rule was introduced in 1991 when lawmakers voted to close down two US bases in the country, Clark Air Force Base and Subic Naval Station.

Local law also forbids foreign troops to be involved in combat.

Under the US-Philippine Visiting Forces Agreement, US troops may provide only training, information and humanitarian aid.

Focus on the Global South (Focus) is a non-government organization with 20 staff in Thailand, the Philippines and India.

Established in Bangkok in 1995, it is affiliated with the Chulalongkorn University Social Research Institute and conducts policy research and advocacy.

In May, senior US State Department official Christopher Hill stressed the importance of a continued US presence in Mindanao where US soldiers have been credited with helping find and kill leaders of the Abu Sayyaf Group, notably its chief, Khaddafy Janjalani, and its spokesman, Abu Sabaya. (See related story)

The US has more than 700 bases and installations in over 100 countries around the world.

http://www.tribune.net.ph/headlines/20070822hed5.html

.

TheAvenger

August 22nd, 2007, 03:53 PM

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/sentinel.jpg

THE SENTINEL. A Marine scans the surrounding terrain as he stands guard on the perimeter of his unit’s bivouac in Tipo-Tipo, Basilan. INQUIRER/EDWIN BACASMAS

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/soldiersonjeep.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/womanmuslim.jpg

A woman crosses Taft Avenue in Manila Wednesday as members of a SWAT team patrol against terrorist attack in the city. GMANews.TV

Massive evacuation' in Basilan readied for major AFP assault

08/22/2007 | 05:21 PM

Authorities in Basilan are preparing for a massive evacuation of residents as the Armed Forces readies a "major assault" on the Abu Sayyaf in the province.

The National Disaster Coordinating Council (NDCC) said Wednesday afternoon that the provincial disaster coordinating council in Basilan expects the assault any time soon.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/jibrael865/casualties-1.jpg

CASUALTIES OF WAR. Evacuees rest by the side of the road as they flee their homes to avoid being caught in hostilities as government troops move in closer to what they believe to be an Abu Sayyaf camp in Tipo-Tipo, Basilan. INQUIRER/EDWIN BACASMAS

"PDCC Basilan is expecting for massive evacuation as the AFP is preparing to launch major assault on suspected ASG lairs," it said in a report Wednesday afternoon.

It added the situation remains critical in the area due to ongoing AFP operations, particularly in Tipo-Tipo town (Baguindan and Silangkum villages); and Ungkaya Pukan (Sungkayot and Bohe Suyak).

On the other hand, the NDCC said the displaced persons still do not have plans to return to their places of origin.

The NDCC added it is already difficult to house them in evacuation centers without amenities such as comfort rooms, bathrooms and potable water sources.

"Since the July 10 incident in Al Barka, 14 public elementary schools are non-operational due to fear of parents bringing their children to schools," it added.

As of Wednesday, the NDCC said 3,318 families or 19,258 persons are being served in seven towns.

These include 1,527 families or 7,371 persons in Sulu and 1,791 families or 11,887 persons in Basilan. -GMANews.TV

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/57213/Massive-evacuation-in-Basilan-readied-for-major-AFP-assault

VIDEO LINK :

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10722/Estrada-gives-P500000-to-each-family-of-slain-Marines

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/latest/10729/Slain-Marine-officers-were-competent-dedicated-–-PMA-classmates

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/latest/10730/Coast-Guard-conducts-anti-terrorism-drill

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10693/Zamboanga-City-blast-injures-14

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10684/Saksi-Bomb-explodes-in-Zamboanga-City

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10723/Test-mission-for-trainee-troops-questioned

http://www.gmanews.tv/video/10721/1st-Marine-Brigade-commander-relieved

.

Animo

August 22nd, 2007, 10:14 PM

in that case we can say Manila, cetral luzon, southern luzon , and other part of luzon was a part of the Sultanatte of Sulu, therefore we belong to their Bangsa Moro Nation.

so they can not just separate and declare a separate nation, since the Sultanatte of Sulu and the moslem settlement of Manila including other Luzon provinces was a part of the Bangsa Moro nation which have one one race, one nation, and one faith, before the Spaniards arrived in our shore.

don't tell me that you are infavor of letting them separate. anyhow I don't expect too much from the foreign-born Pinoy or Pinoy with foreign citizenship to be as nationalistic as we are the native born Pinoy. :)

according to Bush statement :
" If you are not with us.... then you are against us " :jk:

the above statement is another proof that our brother Muslims cannot just separate even the western part of Mindanap from us, for their dreams of an Islamic Republic.

I see. Will your view differ when I say my relatives are also moslem? That I have moslem blood running in my veins? My maternal granfather was buried following Islamic law in Mindanao. Am I not "native" enough? I grew up hearing Islamic hymns but I was given a choice to either be Christian or a "true" Filipino [believed by some] and go with Islam. By the way, my grandmother is a Christian Cebuana.

The Islamic natives of Islas Filipinas knew Jesus much more earlier compared to Christianized natives of the islands. Christianity and Islam intertwines with each other. Jesus is a prophet like Muhammad in Koran. That I think is funny. :lol:

If you will try to figure it out the majority of the moslem population wants peace between this Christian vs. Islamic conflicts. These people are terrorist who wants to divide people. I find it actually ironic why other Filipinos keep on dividing us when they keep on refering to "muslim brothers..." when they too are Filipinos but just with a different faith but not the race/birth place.

TheAvenger

August 22nd, 2007, 11:10 PM

I see. Will your view differ when I say my relatives are also moslem? That I have moslem blood running in my veins? My maternal granfather was buried following Islamic law in Mindanao. Am I not "native" enough? I grew up hearing Islamic hymns but I was given a choice to either be Christian or a "true" Filipino [believed by some] and go with Islam. By the way, my grandmother is a Christian Cebuana.

The Islamic natives of Islas Filipinas knew Jesus much more earlier compared to Christianized natives of the islands. Christianity and Islam intertwines with each other. Jesus is a prophet like Muhammad in Koran. That I think is funny.

If you will try to figure it out the majority of the moslem population wants peace between this Christian vs. Islamic conflicts. These people are terrorist who wants to divide people. I find it actually ironic why other Filipinos keep on dividing us when they keep on refering to "muslim brothers..." when they too are Filipinos but just with a different faith but not the race/birth place.

Nice to know that you have an ancestor who profess the Islamic faith. i guessed my great-great grandparents on the maternal side since they were the natives of Bulacan nearby the Kingdom of Tondo and Maynila, were also Muslims. ( By the way, my great-great grandparents on the paternal side were from Carmen Cebu and Davao)

outside our country I have direct contacts with the Muslims of Indonesia and Malaysia and I even gone inside a Mosque in Brunei. I have little contacts with our Muslim brothers except in some occasions. I always read the history of our brother Muslims, their sufferings during the colonial era and the continued prejudiced by the mainstream Filipino society and the govt neglect of their situations.

I sympathized with them so much and I was happy that the MNLF rebellion resulted to more Muslims were integrated in our civilian national government, many of them have joined our military and police establishment. And the MNLF integrees in our AFP is a good signs that some steps were on the way for their integration in our mainstream society. I sympathized with them to the point that I wished our government will give them more autonomy and funds to develop their regions of Western Mindanao, Basilan, and Sulu.

But not give them a freedom to established a separate Bangsa Moro nation, the realization of their dreams for a separate nation will mean more war in the south. It will herald the disintegration of our country into many small squabbling province republic.

I guessed that once they established an Islamic republic, the Christian in Eastern Mindanao will set up also their own Republic and that will ignite again another war, more vicious than the present one. Since on the present war our central government is fighting for the preservation of our national territorial integrity, while the future war between the future Christian Republic of Eastern Mindanao and the future Islamic Republic of Western Mindanao, Basilan, and Sulu will be fought in religious lines.

Then the regions of Visayas and Luzon whether still under one Republic or under a Federal Republic, or divided into small squabling province republic, will always be involve in another war in Mindanao.

In my view the Bangsa Moro should be given more autonomy and the central goverment to prioritize the development of their region. But never let them separate and established another Republic an Islamic Republic which will be the tinderbox of a new religious war in this part of the world.

The present war in the south is not a religious war and it is more a war between the oppressed peoples and the central government.