Good column by Hume. It's high time the apathetic masses in this city got angry. This city and province create a good proportion of the country's wealth, but must beg for crumbs from the Feds just to keep the basics running. Meantime, the Feds are too busy prostrating in front of Quebec and the Maritimes.
The province is to blame too, vis a vis Toronto's financial straits, but it is also struggling with its finances and being shortchanged by the federal government.

Last chance to fix this city

Mar 28, 2007 04:30 AM
Christopher Hume

What this city needs is a new country.

Toronto, like Vancouver, has emerged as a 21st-century city stuck in a 19th-century nation.

While our federal and provincial leaders play the same old political games – games that haven't changed substantially since the 1800s – Toronto, the Cash Cow of Confederation, sinks ever deeper into the mire of civic poverty and infrastructural rot.

Both Ottawa and Queen's Park made it consistently clear they believe Toronto can be safely ignored, except, of course, for the $14 billion in income taxes alone we send to them annually.

As the city the rest of Canada loves to hate, Toronto makes an easy target for most other governments in the country, especially Ottawa and Queen's Park.

Needless to say, this is old news, but the recent federal and provincial budgets only made a bad situation worse.

Indeed, we have reached the point where the mayor of Toronto is talking publicly about suing the province to force it to pay the social services bills it has dumped on the city.

Bills the province is required by law to pay.

How dysfunctional can we get?

That's why it's time to revive the discussion about a Toronto Charter, a polite way of saying Toronto independence. The recent changes to the City of Toronto Act were a good start, but there's a long way to go still. Though the city can now levy certain taxes – on booze, parking, roads – and alter its system of governance, the big issues of fiscal sustainability and self-determination remain unresolved.

In her introduction to the 2000 book, Toronto: Considering Self-Government, Jane Jacobs writes:

"In Canada, cities were initially dependent, minor subsidiaries of the provinces but ... their development can no longer be constrained by the tutelage of the past. (Cities) are not only a country's economic engines, they are places where everything comes together and then is disseminated, again and again and again. And they – like most children – will certainly outlive the circumstances of their parents. To shed old dependencies in order to take on increased responsibilities and more self-reliance is not a sign of failure of either parents or children."

The city-region discussed in the above-mentioned volume recognizes that urban centres are a country's primary economic and social generators. The idea isn't to weaken the confederation, but, in fact, to strengthen it.

One of the few non-Toronto politicians to grasp this city's essential role is the former mayor of Winnipeg, Glenn Murray. He liked to point out that a healthy Toronto helped Manitobans and other Canadians cover the costs of their basic services.

How ironic then that Toronto can't cover the costs of its own basic services.

After more than a decade of deferred maintenance, the question arises about whether the city can ever recover.

As urban planner Joe Berridge notes in Toronto:

"We could, of course, decide not to compete, keep on cutting capital budgets and trimming services, and make no big or bold moves. Many once-great cities have declined to purely local regional stature: Liverpool, Bordeaux, Detroit, St. Louis, Philadelphia and Montreal. The social and cultural cost to Toronto would be enormous. Our children will choose not to live here."

Michael Mendelson, senior scholar at the Caledon Institute of Social Policy, calls cities, "the constitutional orphans of Canada."

He suggests the creation of a regional government to deal with the issues of the GTA – transportation, waste disposal, the environment, and the like.

He admits, "It has the disadvantage of requiring a thousand-and-one compromises and the end result may not resemble what is actually needed."

The recently relaunched Greater Toronto Transportation Authority represents a step in the right direction, but it remains to be seen how effective the body will be.

And as the GTTA's only non-political member, former Toronto chief planner Paul Bedford quickly made clear, "This is our last chance to get it right as a region."

And, he might have added, a city.

I don't normally like Hume, but its good to see him (and others) trying to popularize the notion that we are getting screwed. And the more we see, the better.

really i think the Mayor knows he won't get one cent of the Gst, but it has brought the issube to the mainstream.


Even Lastman bitched about this in his last year. Everyone says Lastman never increased taxes and bitched, but in his last three years, he raised taxses 5%, then 4% then 3%. Thats really high for a conservative mayor. I would bet that if a more conservative person did come into power, they would still increase taxes by a lot.

I encourage everyone on this forum who is a Toronto resident to unite and to write e-mails to out governments and oppostion leaders expressing our concerns! I'm getting really fed-up with they way Toronto is treated in this country, I think it's Bull Shit! We need to let our politicians know that we are not taking this anymore! We need to tell them that we won't allow them to strip all of our hard earned money and not leave any here in Toronto so we can actually run a proper city. If they do not want to listen to us then we MUST threaten to vote them out of power, we must tell the oppoistion what we want and what we expect from them in order to vote them into to power! It is time we unite as a city and take a stand, if these politicuans still ignore us then we must create a spratist party jus as how Quebec did. If we still don't get what we want then we must have a refrendum. Canada knows that they needs us to survive, so they need to show it. I think its bad that the the TTC, the 3rd largest transit system in North America can bearly provide good service to Canada's most populas city. I think it's bad that Toronto cannot afford to fix its crumbling sidewalks, and roads. I think it's bad that Toronto cannot afford to buils good architecture because we have a limited budget. I think it's bad the the economic power house of Canada, which is Toronto has to hike up taxes on majoe businesses which is forcing them to re-locate and do business else where. I think it's bad that a city like Toronto who strives to be a world-class city falls up short because we cannot keep the money we earn in this city and that we have fund other provinces of Canada but we cannot fund ourselves. We need to do something about this and the time is now!!!! So everyone who is reading this send your concerns to out governments and let them know we are not going to take their crap any longer! We are the city of Toronto, the centre of the universe and if we have to go as far as to create a sepratist party then we will. So lets unite together and get our message heard!! Here are some important e-mails:
Prime Minister of Canada Stephen Harper - pm@pm.gc.ca
Opposition leader Stephane Dion - Dion.S@parl.gc.ca
Premier Dalton Mguinty - https://www.premier.gov.on.ca/feedback/feedback.asp
Opposition leader John Tory - http://www.ontariopc.com/email_john.asp?SectionID=7
TORONTO SHALL NOT BE IGNORED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IF YOU CANNOT RUN A CAR WITHOUT GASLOLINE THEN HOW CAN YOU RUN A CITY WITHOUT MONEY????????????????????

Of the three major federal and provincial parties, are any of them pro-urban? Because I don't think they are.

As for threatening seperation , I don't want Toronto to be the next Montreal.

^ were not trying to be the next montreal but we need to lets these governments know that we are nnot going to take their crap anymore!

I think we need to register a provincial party and call it the Bloc Toronto, to fight for Toronto issues.

The latest provincial budget was a swift kick in the nuts for this city. They took away the suburbs' obligation to pay for social housing but left Toronto to foot the bill.



But most importantly, we should vote for electoral reform in the referendum this October. Proportional representation means the provincial parties can't win by just appeasing to farmers.

Instead of "One Cent Now," what the city should do is organize protest marches and chants:

"What do we want?"
"The Federal Government to transfer tax points to the provinces, say for example, by increasing the maximum a person can earn tax free before tax become applicable and all the provinces could then step in and scoop up the tax room so that the provinces can deal with the matters that they have constitutional jurisdiction over in an effective manner!"
"When do we want it?"
"NOW!"
etc.

Perhaps the city should just slash spending? How's that for nuts? How about making priorities and putting infrastructure near the top of the list? And how about we agree that everything is not infrastructure (and that infrastructure is not everything) Yeah- too damn sensible!

From the Globe MArch 28 , 2007


The property-tax well
1. Toronto's city council doesn't know the meaning of delivering value for money. Which is why it can propose a steep hike of 3.8 per cent in property taxes for homeowners -- more than double the city's effective rate of inflation -- without adding any services. Businesses, which already pay quadruple the rate of homeowners, face an increase of 1.3 per cent. Once again, beleaguered property owners are being told they will have to shoulder the burden of heavy city spending, even though the city has new taxation capabilities at its disposal.
No one denies that keeping Toronto running is an expensive proposition, made even more so by the costs stemming from welfare and other social services. But such services are designed to cope with disparities in income and should not be funded by property taxes.
Mayor David Miller is right to demand that the federal and provincial governments meet their fair share of the costs of administering these programs and maintaining such vital services as public transit. But he and his fellow councillors also have an obligation to do more than whine incessantly about senior levels of government or order Torontonians to dig ever deeper into their pockets. They have to rein in their own profligate spending.
The mayor vowed during last year's municipal election campaign that he would keep increases in line with inflation. He is breaking that promise, and is showing little interest in belt-tightening. His budget includes a 9.3-per-cent hike for municipal departments and agencies and a whopping 29.7-per-cent jump in the operating budget for his office. That is unacceptable

As good a show as it may be for our mayor to be screaming for more funding, what steps have they undertaken to work on the cost side of the equation?

Asking for a handout is the easy way out. They are avoiding having to tackle some tough decisions like avoiding the issue of contracting certain services where it might make sense.

Its an overused phrase by now, but it is quite apparent that certain career councillors are living in a culture of entitlement. What kind of leadership and message is being sent when the very people who are having difficulty with the city budget vote themselves an immense pay raise? I find it so hard to believe that the citizens of Toronto found that acceptable and voted the culprits back in office.

Instead of "One Cent Now," what the city should do is organize protest marches and chants:

"What do we want?"
"The Federal Government to transfer tax points to the provinces, say for example, by increasing the maximum a person can earn tax free before tax become applicable and all the provinces could then step in and scoop up the tax room so that the provinces can deal with the matters that they have constitutional jurisdiction over in an effective manner!"
"When do we want it?"
"NOW!"
etc.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm not picking on you, I swear... but that is quite possibly the best chant ever! I could just imagine hundreds of rowdy protesters "chanting" that...

awesome.

Hahahaha!

It's no surprise we're getting screwed. All it takes is a mayor with enough balls to say ENOUGH. The collective city of Toronto should have enough power to keep, let's say, the 13 billion in Toronto - to the Feds: Too bad. Ask Montreal.

During one of the debates during the last election, Jane Pitfield said to Miller, "Rather than try and blame everyone else for our problems, let's try and see what we can do on our level." There is no doubt Toronto needs more funding, but the way Miller approaches it he comes off as a big whining baby!!! As soon as we get a share of the gas tax, he then wants 1% of the GST. As soon as we get over $2 billion in funding for a subway expansion, he reveals a $6 billion LRT plan. It is for these reasons why the rest of Canada hates our guts!!!

I'm not one who is generally against tax hikes, but have all the avenues been researched??? Have we considered cutting back spending and contracting out some services??? No. Have we considered opening a gambling or red light district to earn extra revenue??? No. The only avenue Miller has examined is to produce over inflated budgets and pass the burden on to the tax payers because he is a NDP socialist douche!!! Actually, it is unfair to compare him to the NDP: The NDP run platforms based on equality and prosperity, Miller runs campaigns entirely on trivial issues (ie: Downtown airport bridge, waterfront revitalization) and tries to make it sound like it is the only thing that is important.

But hey, you guys re-elected him, so enjoy your new taxes and over budget spending...

As good a show as it may be for our mayor to be screaming for more funding, what steps have they undertaken to work on the cost side of the equation?

Asking for a handout is the easy way out. They are avoiding having to tackle some tough decisions like avoiding the issue of contracting certain services where it might make sense.

Its an overused phrase by now, but it is quite apparent that certain career councillors are living in a culture of entitlement. What kind of leadership and message is being sent when the very people who are having difficulty with the city budget vote themselves an immense pay raise? I find it so hard to believe that the citizens of Toronto found that acceptable and voted the culprits back in office.

It is NOT a handout. We only want less money to be drained from us every year by the provincial
and federal governments. It is OUR money and we are artificially being turned into a poor city that has to borrow billions of dollars. Will Torontonians ever grasp this or will they forever continue to blame City council for what is happening?
@ Electrify :Jane Pitfield couldn't have done a damn thing but make matters worse. Blaming this on Miller is foolish. Try blaming Chretien, Paul Martin , Steve Hooper, Mike Harris and McGuinty if you want to find the culprits instead of kicking the cat.

Whoever came up with the One Cent Now campaign was on crack.

rally is he that socialist, he has poured massive amounts of money into the police...

Toronto screwed up in the first place by not demanding the ability to place extra taxes on gasoline. When I was back in Toronto last summer I couldn't beleive how cheap gas prices were.
Translink has the ability to raise gas taxes for transit and has turned out to be a real cash cow.

Toronto now has the ability to raise new revenues, well why the hell haven't they started to as opposed to doing yet another study.
Why the hell haven't they placed tolls on the Gardiner or DVP??? It wouldn't effect many Torontonians but would pound 905ers and the prov and especially the feds desperatly need those suburban votes. Why not toll ALL city roads coming into the city from the 905?? Its about Toronto started to act like a big city and grab some backbone.

Why don't they give the province 3 months notice and then completly stop providing social services that the province is suppose to pay? The province won't let the services stop as the political backlash would be extreme and the province would magically find the money.

I have said this a thousand times. Stop whining about Quebec and instead learn a lesson from her.............blackmail works.

As soon as we get over $2 billion in funding for a subway expansion, he reveals a $6 billion LRT plan.



Eh...that subway expansion is not going to benefit any(or few) Torontonian. The LRT plan is. Its a perfect example of the province and federal government reaching out to the suburbs and ignoring the city.

@ssiguy People are too happy pouring the blame on ourselves to get organized enough to demand our city gets it fair share.

Why the hell haven't they placed tolls on the Gardiner or DVP??? It wouldn't effect many Torontonians but would pound 905ers and the prov and especially the feds desperatly need those suburban votes. Why not toll ALL city roads coming into the city from the 905?? Its about Toronto started to act like a big city and grab some backbone.

:lol:

Do you have any idea how many roads go into the city? Taxing the expressways will just cause more gridlock on the arterial roads.

Taxing the expressways will just cause more gridlock on the arterial roads.
What will not taxing them (the "Do Nothing" option) do?

Toronto's buget demands are not that outragous nor are they overly costly. The desire to have more money infused into the city is not a request for a hand out, it is mearly a request to have a portion of our own tax dollars back so we can have proper funding the way other places in Canada does.

I find it histaricle that people get all hot and bothered about Toronto wanting to build an LRT network but Quebec can use federal transfers for tax breaks with little crap.

It is for these reasons why the rest of Canada hates our guts!!!

Actually the rest of Canada has the impression that we get too much funding as is on top of our precieved wealth. This is fostered by politicians as a tool to shore up support.

This is ofcoarse totally false. Toronto and Ontario just simply have a larger middle class than most places in Canada. That does not make us wealthy at all. In addition I'm sure we are either last or just about last in spending on government services from every section.

People from the GTA pay more into federalism than anyone else but also suffer the most from that system. I find it laughable that Danny Williams or anyone from outside Ontario on this forum has the guff to complain about the way things are.

Toronto screwed up in the first place by not demanding the ability to place extra taxes on gasoline. When I was back in Toronto last summer I couldn't beleive how cheap gas prices were.
Translink has the ability to raise gas taxes for transit and has turned out to be a real cash cow.

Toronto now has the ability to raise new revenues, well why the hell haven't they started to as opposed to doing yet another study.
Why the hell haven't they placed tolls on the Gardiner or DVP??? It wouldn't effect many Torontonians but would pound 905ers and the prov and especially the feds desperatly need those suburban votes. Why not toll ALL city roads coming into the city from the 905?? Its about Toronto started to act like a big city and grab some backbone.

Why don't they give the province 3 months notice and then completly stop providing social services that the province is suppose to pay? The province won't let the services stop as the political backlash would be extreme and the province would magically find the money.

I have said this a thousand times. Stop whining about Quebec and instead learn a lesson from her.............blackmail works.

Yeah okay man that will really work. Placing road tolls and other specialty taxes will fuel an exodus to the suburbs of people and customers if made enough to make a difference in the overall budget. One of the reasons Toronto's inner-city is so great is that people from distant suburbs do come into the city for entertainment and shopping. Make that too expensive and there is a risk of a decline.

The Premier has not done to badly as of late so we can't alienate him to much with demands. Queens Park is in much the same situation as the city. Right now both have a common goal.

What will not taxing them (the "Do Nothing" option) do?

Good question. I can't really answer it.

What I was trying to say is there's not much of an alternative to diving for most in the GTA. Busses and GO are already at capacity. Taxing the DVP can only happen when there are viable alternatibves, otherwise drivers will just clog up Don Mills and Bayview and Yonge and Victoria Park.

Having clogged arterial roads and an empty expressway is not good for anybody. Just ask anyone who lives near Hwy 407.

Good question. I can't really answer it.

What I was trying to say is there's not much of an alternative to diving for most in the GTA. Busses and GO are already at capacity. Taxing the DVP can only happen when there are viable alternatibves, otherwise drivers will just clog up Don Mills and Bayview and Yonge and Victoria Park.

Having clogged arterial roads and an empty expressway is not good for anybody. Just ask anyone who lives near Hwy 407.

Maybe add tolls to the express lanes on the 401???

It is NOT a handout. We only want less money to be drained from us every year by the provincial
and federal governments. It is OUR money and we are artificially being turned into a poor city that has to borrow billions of dollars. Will Torontonians ever grasp this or will they forever continue to blame City council for what is happening?
@ Electrify :Jane Pitfield couldn't have done a damn thing but make matters worse. Blaming this on Miller is foolish. Try blaming Chretien, Paul Martin , Steve Hooper, Mike Harris and McGuinty if you want to find the culprits instead of kicking the cat.

I believe the city should be run with the objective of a balanced budget. Instead, what I see is a city spending with forecasted tax increases in mind.

If Queens Park anties up the $71Mil portion that is owed, you know what? We will just be hearing the same old whining except the subject will be about something else. The $71Mil number is just a diversionary tactic to cast attention away from internal mismanagement. The purported 3.8% tax increase brings in a lot more than $71Mil, and we are still dipping into reserves!

Don't get me wrong, I do believe that the province needs to come up with more funding. However, what measures have we seen from cost containment within the city?

Tough decisions need to be made about assesing the best options for the city to use in providing services. Why have we not seen any steps taken in this direction?

I'm glad you guys liked my article and that it has sparked some debate. :)

And just think, a few weeks ago people on this forum were telling me that an independence movement made no sense.

Two budgets later it is not sounding so bad, eh?

I believe the city should be run with the objective of a balanced budget. Instead, what I see is a city spending with forecasted tax increases in mind.

If Queens Park anties up the $71Mil portion that is owed, you know what? We will just be hearing the same old whining except the subject will be about something else. The $71Mil number is just a diversionary tactic to cast attention away from internal mismanagement. The purported 3.8% tax increase brings in a lot more than $71Mil, and we are still dipping into reserves!

Don't get me wrong, I do believe that the province needs to come up with more funding. However, what measures have we seen from cost containment within the city?

Tough decisions need to be made about assesing the best options for the city to use in providing services. Why have we not seen any steps taken in this direction?

We'd all like the city to have a balanced budget. Want to know why they cannot achieve it? The province keeps downloading responsibilities and refusing to pay for them. So blaming the city for not "balancing" is hardly their fault. Would you prefer they just cancel basic services in order to "balance"? I would prefer we balance the books by getting even half of
the exhorbitant amount of OUR tax money that is being sucked out of our city. I don't see why we should be borrowing billions so that people in another province can enjoy a tax cut and more money for their social problems.

We'd all like the city to have a balanced budget. Want to know why they cannot achieve it? The province keeps downloading responsibilities and refusing to pay for them. So blaming the city for not "balancing" is hardly their fault. Would you prefer they just cancel basic services in order to "balance"? I would prefer we balance the books by getting even half of
the exhorbitant amount of OUR tax money that is being sucked out of our city. I don't see why we should be borrowing billions so that people in another province can enjoy a tax cut and more money for their social problems.

I think that both sides of this argument are true.

There is not question that we are getting hosed. That is indisputable.

However, there are also opprtunities to save in the city. Obvious ways and creative ways.

I do like the suggestion to start a Bloc Toronto party. There is some intelligence there. Of course it does not get us anywhere, but gets some attention.

I think that both sides of this argument are true.

There is not question that we are getting hosed. That is indisputable.

However, there are also opprtunities to save in the city. Obvious ways and creative ways.

I do like the suggestion to start a Bloc Toronto party. There is some intelligence there. Of course it does not get us anywhere, but gets some attention.

I think it is hugely important for Torontonians to stop being so deferential to the rest of the country, and to start speaking out loudly against being hosed. Hell, shouting out loudly. Letting the Conservatives know that we will not vote for them unless they show us some of OUR money. If they are so keen to correct an imaginary fiscal imbalance for our neighbours, perhaps we can convince them to stop creating a REAL fiscal imbalance for us by turning us upside down and shaking us by the heels til our money falls out of our pockets! The squeaking wheel gets the grease and Torontonians are way too self-effacing, self-criticizing and meek to realize the enormous political power they could wield if they chose to. Maybe they are too desperate to be loved by a country that hates them. I say who cares? Just give us our money back.

I think it is hugely important for Torontonians to stop being so deferential to the rest of the country, and to start speaking out loudly against being hosed. Hell, shouting out loudly. Letting the Conservatives know that we will not vote for them unless they show us some of OUR money.

The problem is that the Cons know we will never vote for them, and the Libs know we will vote for them regardless. :ohno:

^^ Hence why Bloc Toronto is needed. The party doesn't even need a platform, it can be functional just as a massive protest vote.

^^^It would take a person with a hugely attractive personality to whip up a bit of frenzy about such a movement... a larger than life type that people respect. Any ideas? I would certainly be willing to vote for a local candidate who campaigns heavily about Toronto issues and who is seeking reform. I suppose it is very slowly dawning on the general public that they are getting fleeced. This was not even an issue until about the last five years. Until then not a peep was said about the issue, and most people seemed to be in a coma and not realize how much money was being taken out of our city. The Star has been good at raising the issue. The Globe and The Putz will never take up Toronto's cause, as they consider themselves "national" papers and if a national paper appears to "favour" Toronto in any way, it sells no newspapers in the ROC. The Putz even came out solidly against Miller and his one cent campaign in a major scathing and quite anti-Toronto editorial. Mind you, they sell hardly any papers in Toronto and have been drowning in red ink, too.

^^^It would take a person with a hugely attractive personality to whip up a bit of frenzy about such a movement... a larger than life type that people respect. Any ideas? I would certainly be willing to vote for a local candidate who campaigns heavily about Toronto issues and who is seeking reform. I suppose it is very slowly dawning on the general public that they are getting fleeced. This was not even an issue until about the last five years. Until then not a peep was said about the issue, and most people seemed to be in a coma and not realize how much money was being taken out of our city. The Star has been good at raising the issue. The Globe and The Putz will never take up Toronto's cause, as they consider themselves "national" papers and if a national paper appears to "favour" Toronto in any way, it sells no newspapers in the ROC. The Putz even came out solidly against Miller and his one cent campaign in a major scathing and quite anti-Toronto editorial. Mind you, they sell hardly any papers in Toronto and have been drowning in red ink, too.

^^ ZANTA

LOL! I saw him on Yonge St the other day barking in a girl's ear at top volume!!

lmao, Why was he doing that?

lmao, Why was he doing that?

because sometimes he is stark raving bonkers and that is what he does! :lol: He runs up beside an unsuspecting person and either makes a move on a cute girl or screams and barks at people!
If there is one thing he loves, it is attention! ;)

lmao, Why was he doing that?

His version of oral sex.

LOLOLOLOL I heart Zanta.. He apparently lives really close to my school.

His version of oral sex.

LMFAO!:lol:

(or is that aural sex??)

There can be no tolls on any 400 series highway {which includes the QEW} as they are provincial roads. This is why I said the DVP and Gardiner which are city roads.
All roads eg Eglinton, Bathurst, Bloor, Kingston...............every route could be tolled. Even if just $2.00 it would bring in billions. No one could bitch because they always have the option of taking one of the packed 400 series but the heavier traffic might tempt them to either pay the toll or go GO.

Half the funds could go to the TTC and the other to decrease property and business taxes to help Toronto compete with the 905. Wouldn't it be great for the 905 to subsidize Toronto as opposed to the current reverse.

It will never get done though. This is, afterall, gutless Toronto. It would take a really forceful city to do this. Toronto is a huge city but acts like Tobermory. Just like that new City Act. Th city finally gets some revenue generators and don't use them.

Blasted poor people who cannot afford to raise a family downtown!
Either get rich or don't have kids - but not both!

We need to stop these people who are trying to raise a family and are forced to live in crap 905 townhouse condos to stop getting to their jobs downtown - or, at least make it harder for those who have less to do so!

TOLL THE ROADS!
KEEP THE OVER - TAXED MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES THE HELL AWAY FROM DOWNTOWN!

Blasted poor people who cannot afford to raise a family downtown!
Either get rich or don't have kids - but not both!

We need to stop these people who are trying to raise a family and are forced to live in crap 905 townhouse condos to stop getting to their jobs downtown - or, at least make it harder for those who have less to do so!

TOLL THE ROADS!
KEEP THE OVER - TAXED MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES THE HELL AWAY FROM DOWNTOWN!

EDIT: Being somewhat new here myself, I'm not sure what the tolerance is at pointing out someone's stupidity. So instead of using my Billy Madison quote, I am going to suggest you watch that movie, specifically near the end, and take note to what the Principal's comments were to Billy during the 'intelligence test' thing. The same line can be applied to you...

Or even better, check out this link (http://imdb.com/title/tt0112508/quotes) and read the 11th quote down. Same thing.

EDIT: Being somewhat new here myself, I'm not sure what the tolerance is at pointing out someone's stupidity. So instead of using my Billy Madison quote, I am going to suggest you watch that movie, specifically near the end, and take note to what the Principal's comments were to Billy during the 'intelligence test' thing. The same line can be applied to you...

Or even better, check out this link (http://imdb.com/title/tt0112508/quotes) and read the 11th quote down. Same thing.


I hate subarbanites as much as the next guy, but I have to agree. That was stupid.

I thought he was being sarcastic and making fun of the silly suggestions to toll all roads incoming from the 905.

I thought he was being sarcastic and making fun of the silly suggestions to toll all roads incoming from the 905.


Yeah, I thought he was being sarcastic, too.....

There can be no tolls on any 400 series highway {which includes the QEW} as they are provincial roads. This is why I said the DVP and Gardiner which are city roads.
All roads eg Eglinton, Bathurst, Bloor, Kingston...............every route could be tolled. Even if just $2.00 it would bring in billions. No one could bitch because they always have the option of taking one of the packed 400 series but the heavier traffic might tempt them to either pay the toll or go GO.

Half the funds could go to the TTC and the other to decrease property and business taxes to help Toronto compete with the 905. Wouldn't it be great for the 905 to subsidize Toronto as opposed to the current reverse.

It will never get done though. This is, afterall, gutless Toronto. It would take a really forceful city to do this. Toronto is a huge city but acts like Tobermory. Just like that new City Act. Th city finally gets some revenue generators and don't use them.

For once you are starting to make sense.
It is true that the 400-series highways cannot be tolled directly. However, I beleive that tolling the Gardiner and DVP alone is a formula for complete disaster - a poison pill. There needs to be a perimeter tolling system. That said, I agree with David Miller that targetting downtown alone is also a bad idea - another poison pill. However, it would be smart to cast a wider net but still within Toronto proper - to ensure that all revenue collected from this goes to Toronto, and at the expense of the 905. Strategic placement can yeild a powerful result with reasonable costs. The 401 can be tolled in a sense, by using it as a border - if you get off, and travel north, sure, that's free, but if you try to get off and go south, you will be paying to get off the 401 - and there is no way to get around it. The city can do that because the actual toll crossing is on a city street, although it will have a direct impact on the 401's travel patterns.

Proposed Locations for Tolls (if I were in charge):
LEGEND: Intersection (orientation in relation to intersection if applicable)
Lakeshore Blvd. W. @ Park Lawn Rd. (West side)
Gardiner Expressway @ Grand Ave.
The Queensway @ Park Lawn Rd. (West side)
Royal York Rd. @ Mimico Creek
Bloor St. W. @ Mimico Creek
Dundas St. W. @ Islington Ave. (South and West sides, include Riverbank Dr. in toll zone)
Kipling Ave. @ Mimico Creek
Rathburn Rd. @ Martin Grove Rd. (North and East sides)
Eglinton Ave. W. @ Hwy 401 (East side)
Martin Grove Rd. @ 401/Dixon Rd. (South side, 401 onramps remain outside toll zone)
Kipling Ave. @ Greensboro Dr. (South side)
Islington Ave. @ CN Weston Corridor (Alignment to match railway tracks)
Weston Rd. @ Dee Ave. (North side)
Wendell Ave. @ Wilson Ave. (South side)
Jane St. @ Maple Leaf Dr. (North side)
Jane St. @ Fallstaff Ave. (East side)
Keele St. @ Floral Pkwy. (Steep diagonal to keep 401 exits outside toll zone but Floral Pkwy. inside)
Dufferin Ave. @ Jane Osler Blvd. (North side)
Allen Rd. @ Yorkdale Rd. (South side)
Bathurst St. @ Stadacona Dr. (North side)
Wilson Ave. @ Allard Ave. (West side)
Avenue Rd. @ Wilson Ave. (North side)
Yonge St. @ York Mills Rd. (North side)
Lord Seaton Rd. @ Oaken Gateway (West side)
Baview @ Truman Rd. (North side)
Leslie St. @ CN Peterborough Corridor (Alignment built into railway underpass)
York Mills Rd. @ Scarsdale Rd. (East side)
Don Mills Rd. @ Chipping Rd. (South side)
Lawrence Ave. E. @ CN Peterborough Corridor (Alignment to match railway tracks)
Don Valley Parkway @ CN Peterborough Corridor (Alignment built into railway underpass)
Eglinton Ave. E. @ CN Peterborough Corridor (Alignment to match railway tracks)
O'Connor Dr. @ Taylor Creek
Dawes Rd. @ Crescent Town Rd. (South side)
Victoria Park Ave. @ Denton Ave. (North side)
Pharmacy Ave. @ TTC Subway underpass (Alignment built into underpass)
Warden Ave. @ Mack Ave. (North side)
Danforth Rd. @ Mack Ave. (North side)
Birchmount Rd. @ Mack Ave. (West side)
Birchmount Rd. @ Danforth Ave. (North and East sides)
Birchmount Rd. @ Kingston Rd. (East side)

Total: 40 crossings

Toll shall be equal to a GO Transit fare to adjacent zone.

Strategic Points:
-Avoids increasing congestion along arterial roads by toll-evaders by tolling an entire area rather than just highways
-All GO Stations with parking lots are outside the toll area (Danforth, Exhibition, Bloor, and Weston do not have parking lots).
-Major TTC Subway parking lots are also outside the toll zone (Kipling, Islington, Victoria Park, Warden, Kennedy, Finch, Wilson, Yorkdale, etc.) but also keeping a majority of the subway system without parking lots inside.
-Boundary is impregnable without doing something very illegal (instant loss of licence)
-Licence plates registered to 416 addresses are exempt from tolls
-Pricing system to match GO Transit pushes 905-mindset to switch to transit (Long Branch, Kipling, Etobicoke North, York U, Oriole, Kennedy, Scarborough stations are all one zone from Union Station)
-401 is left alone for through-traffic, but still acts as a toll boundary. Other boundaries are rivers and creeks and railway corridors.
-Covers a range broad enough to not single out downtown (and scare away visitors)
-All toll revenue is Toronto's alone and paid for entirely by the 905 as 416ers are exempt.

Failings:
-Parking capacity
-Tolls would probably have to be limited to rush hours without dramatic service improvements to GO Transit train service upto at least Cooksville, Bramalea, King City, Richmond Hill, and Unionville GO stations along their respective corridors.

... or just introduce a GTA gas tax.

I thought he was being sarcastic and making fun of the silly suggestions to toll all roads incoming from the 905.
Bingo!

rather than putting tolls on moving traffic, wouldn't it be much more efficient to increase parking fees. After all, most cars eventually park, and most parking lots already have some capacity to extract fees.

Why this war on those who have less and thus live in Rexdale or Brampton.
Do you think anyone wants to live on Brampton? Rexdale? Pickering? Oshawa? Richmond Hill? Newmarket? ???
Or is it what they can afford?

They're so poor that they need a 3-car garage for their BMW.

i think he talks about Immigrants...

They're so poor that they need a 3-car garage for their BMW.

Crap 905 townhouse condos have 3- car garages?

Most 905 homes do.

okay 2-car, whatever

Some of them actually have 3 car garages... It's disgusting.

i think the "Bloc Toronto" idea is a great one. Perhaps that's something the guys at Urban Toronto Forum can think about starting..

I think tolls are just a bad idea... it will make the suburbs even stronger and we will just get more messed as an economic region.

Why this war on those who have less and thus live in Rexdale or Brampton.
Do you think anyone wants to live on Brampton? Rexdale? Pickering? Oshawa? Richmond Hill? Newmarket? ???
Or is it what they can afford?

While I agree that it is shocking and that the IQ of 905ers leaves something to be desired, the 905ers mostly choose to live in 905. I know people that like 905. I think 905 needs lots of mental hospitals because there is a huge population in need of treatment, but yes, people do like to live in Newmarket, Pickering, Oshawa, and Richmond Hill, often times with lots of pride, so much that they shit on Toronto, and that is why they shall suffer (as the suburbs are by definition dependant on Toronto, it is not like you can take Toronto away from them, so might as well make them pay for causing the problems they cause by living in 905 - they make the mess, they can finance our cleaning it up for them).

Um, I think it could be - for many hundreds of thousands of 905'ers - a question of what they can afford.

There just isn't affordable housing for families downtown - it's not there. You need to be very wealthy, childless or single to afford to live downtown. (I'd like to be wrong - but I am not. Look at 905-- there are many hundreds of thousands living in shit townhouse condos. You think people like living is shit townhouses? Or is that what they can afford? You need to make do. If you're married, have a couple of kids, and aren't wealthy, then downtown is out.

Hey, I'd love a nice, affordable home in Bloor West Village .. want to buy one for me? Or in the Annex. Or in the Beach. Heck, I'm open open minded to find some wealthy lefties who live in nice houses downtown and start redistributing their assets to my liking.

^^ Ah yes... but if you owned a house, you would no longer be a serf, would you? ;)

Its not only toronto thats being screwed over, its ontario in general,
has anyone ever been to sudbury ontario?, the roads are so bad that people have actually died (more than once) from hitting potholes that tear the front axle off the car. yout hink toronto has no money for roads, ive been to toronto, and your infrastructure feels like driving on a cloud compared to many other places. toronto generates much of the wealth used to fund the rest of canada,

Its because we are a "have" province, and the feds need a specific amount from ontario, so they need to tax more everywere in ontario, Toronto just feels it more because it has more people, the same amount of tax is comming out of my pocket here in the north. Alberta has the same issue.

seperation is not the answer, the entire constitution needs to be amended, seal quebec in canada no ifs ands or buts about it, so that we can stop giving them everything they want, its comparable to giving a kid a reward everytime he takes a fit,

change the systems, and invest in the have not provinces economies so that the economies of these provinces can grow to self-sustinance, instead of giving them a free ride, give them the means to be able to hold themselves up on their own, (Example: saskatewan, invest in new jobs and new economic activity that fits specifically to sask's geography and existing economy,Attract population to saskatewan, set up a division of imigration canada, to send people specifically to saskatewan (by choice of course its not 1860 anymore), equip the province to integrate the newcomers,


If this is done right, then there will be no need for ontario and alberta to pay more tax, therefore, Toronto and Calgary will not have to give up billions to the province (so they can give it up to the feds), this isnt a provincial problem its a national problem. its a long and painful task, but its draining our country and killing national unity to the point were even the golden goose of canada (ontario) is sayin F*ck it im out of here and the entire west is at risk aswell. when the fiscal imbalance is fixed then maybe the government can start taking care of its cities, and stop screwin over the little guy like sudbury.

i have actually heard that calgary is facing a money problem as well.

its an inter provincial issue, were always tellin the west top stop whining and that we there wont be an NEP2, but were int he same boat as they are, there not taking our energy, there just plain taking our money.

i have actually heard that calgary is facing a money problem as well.

Too much!?!? ;)

The City of Calgary is in a very bad financial position because all the provincial money isn't filtering its way down to Cal/Edm.
Calgary especially needs massive amounts of money for infastructure which has been slow coming from the province despite their huge surpluses and massive amount in the bank.

It looks that this may change as the money Calgary sends to the province for their educational taxes {ie provincial downloading} may be returned neting Calgary an extra $475,000,000/year.
The Premier has been very receptive to this and seems to have a real understanding of the plight of Edm/Cal.

^ will this be happening for Toronto?

I was looking through the Ontario Hansard, and I found something interesting:


John Tory:
How about gridlock? We do have the typical one-time, one-off one project: one press conference, one show-business, glitzy project which is going to do, I'm sure, a little bit of good. I'm sure it will. But the fact of the matter is-and I should be fair. It wasn't just the one project; it was one that was a bit larger, namely the York University-York region subway, but there were also the Mississauga and Brampton projects at the time. But we sit here in the fourth year of the mandate, at the 11th hour, when they are about to be experiencing, as they have been, these deathbed repentances, and notwithstanding that they are on their deathbed now-they are in their agonizing final days where they're about to be turfed out by the people; their contract is about to expire-the fact of the matter is that we have, in response to the expenditure of $22.4 billion of the taxpayers' money, not a shred of an integrated, funded long-term transportation plan for the GTA and for southern Ontario. We have a little project here and a bigger project there, all one-off, all very mysteriously picked out of the air for reasons best known to the minister, and no plan.

This guy's pretty good. I just wish he would lay off the catch-phrase campaigning. Wouldn't it be interesting to see premier Tory and his ex-rival Miller trying to get along?

Wouldn't it be interesting to see premier Tory and his ex-rival Miller trying to get along?
No, it would not be interesting. They're not only civil with each-other but they're actually friends who agree very strongly on how the province should treat Toronto. They do disagree on how Toronto should be run though :)

You would be surprised at the number of politicians at all levels of government who bicker and fight with each-other for the day job (pay cheque) then go out afterward for a few drinks and laugh it up because they've been friends for a long time.

Hoorah for John Tory. I think he's the best hope Ontario has so far for a transit friendly government inline with the Bill Davis' and his predecessors. He's a Torontonian, and lives in the city. He knows what the issues are in Toronto well. I sincerely hope that he wins the next election. While McGuinty has been treating Toronto well in comparison to the Harris/Eves Conservatives, Toronto and the GTA need to be treated better. More money needs to be invested in areas of transportation, and the greenbelt. I was disappointed in the Greenbelt legislation. Too many loops holes and that 10 year review period is stupid beyond words. It should have been a firm protective barrier and no reviews. It's already been reviewed to death. Driving north in York Region makes me so sad and angry at the loss of green space to mass-produced McHouses that all look the same. Horrible waste!

Hoorah for John Tory. I think he's the best hope Ontario has so far for a transit friendly government inline with the Bill Davis' and his predecessors. He's a Torontonian, and lives in the city. He knows what the issues are in Toronto well. I sincerely hope that he wins the next election. You're out of your mind. If Tory's Tories win it will be a disaster. Don't think it will be much different than Eves or Harris. If you remember the municipal election, you'd know that this idiot is totally auto-oriented in his mindset. Longer left-turn lanes and more intersections with advance green lights and crap are his idea of gridlock solutions. The TTC would not get a cent from this incompetent ass. Not much is happening under the Liberal Gov't, except from subways to nowhere (gaaaaaaah), but even less would happen under Tory. He only pretends to be smart to get you to vote for him. Once he's in, it's back to "who needs Toronto" mode... yes, even though he is from Toronto. He's a driver, not a rider.

He's a driver, not a rider.

Actually, I've seen him on the subway a few times.

I'm willing to give his tires a kick. Pun intended.

It's not just Toronto that is struggling to maintain infrastructure and meet the demand for new and improved things, it's everywhere. Look at any city in Ontario and what was built 50 to 100 years ago. Impressive buildings, first rate service, beautiful schools. For Toronto, the subway, GO Transit, the Gardiner, etc... Now these kinds of things are almost unthinkable. At least Toronto still gets some cool things (eg: like subway expansion). Other cities can't even afford to plant flower gardens in their parks. Schools can't afford to cut the grass in schoolyards during the summer. It's ridiculous. Somewhere along the line an imbalance has grown in meeting the demand and paying for public goods.

^You are not going to find too many people who think of this subway expantion as "cool". Especially as there are better places for it to be placed.

^You are not going to find too many people who think of this subway expantion as "cool". Especially as there are better places for it to be placed.

Yes, but you've gotta start somewhere...

... else.

Actually, I've seen him on the subway a few times.

I'm willing to give his tires a kick. Pun intended.


I'll give him a hoof in the tires, too! (Pain intended..) :)