The same here with Prague...

yeah, Prague is seriously behind the schedule of the motorway ring... it should be ready now... :ohno:

we are in a much better situation here in budapest, but we couldnt be satisfied: the southern sector needs an immediate widening and the western section is still completely missing...

but you are right: the new eastern sector is extremely cool! :banana: :cheers:

some photos of the brand new eastern M0:

http://img10.indafoto.hu/8/5/14925_5e2020a9be8dde3fd1fdd77c4d3b9762/2410629_da5e30a5d4162fcd8fe471a48b8d6ec9_m.jpg (http://img10.indafoto.hu/8/5/14925_5e2020a9be8dde3fd1fdd77c4d3b9762/2410629_da5e30a5d4162fcd8fe471a48b8d6ec9_xl.jpg)

http://img4.indafoto.hu/8/5/14925_5e2020a9be8dde3fd1fdd77c4d3b9762/2410631_959ca5e027b4e43f82e35b5535c07266_m.jpg (http://img4.indafoto.hu/8/5/14925_5e2020a9be8dde3fd1fdd77c4d3b9762/2410631_959ca5e027b4e43f82e35b5535c07266_xl.jpg)

http://img7.indafoto.hu/8/5/14925_5e2020a9be8dde3fd1fdd77c4d3b9762/2410633_cdbd48f237598e08bb7be13c46493735_m.jpg (http://img7.indafoto.hu/8/5/14925_5e2020a9be8dde3fd1fdd77c4d3b9762/2410633_cdbd48f237598e08bb7be13c46493735_xl.jpg)

http://img3.indafoto.hu/8/5/14925_5e2020a9be8dde3fd1fdd77c4d3b9762/2410635_0cdcd28b5dc5b3e0f056e432c7c440c1_m.jpg (http://img3.indafoto.hu/8/5/14925_5e2020a9be8dde3fd1fdd77c4d3b9762/2410635_0cdcd28b5dc5b3e0f056e432c7c440c1_xl.jpg)

http://img9.indafoto.hu/8/5/14925_5e2020a9be8dde3fd1fdd77c4d3b9762/2410637_4b06a12775e923df8026f456c339ce6e_m.jpg (http://img9.indafoto.hu/8/5/14925_5e2020a9be8dde3fd1fdd77c4d3b9762/2410637_4b06a12775e923df8026f456c339ce6e_xl.jpg)

http://img6.indafoto.hu/8/5/14925_5e2020a9be8dde3fd1fdd77c4d3b9762/2410639_388df6bc76e59a882f7ba85047048b5a_m.jpg (http://img6.indafoto.hu/8/5/14925_5e2020a9be8dde3fd1fdd77c4d3b9762/2410639_388df6bc76e59a882f7ba85047048b5a_xl.jpg)

the old southern M0:

http://img6.indafoto.hu/8/5/14925_5e2020a9be8dde3fd1fdd77c4d3b9762/2410627_e3686e6e1957f173c33dfa34258615bd_m.jpg (http://img6.indafoto.hu/8/5/14925_5e2020a9be8dde3fd1fdd77c4d3b9762/2410627_e3686e6e1957f173c33dfa34258615bd_xl.jpg)

the old southern M0 widened to 2x3+1 at the interchange of M6:

http://img6.indafoto.hu/8/5/14925_5e2020a9be8dde3fd1fdd77c4d3b9762/2410625_5715150abb39989d64162e6827c5c090_m.jpg (http://img6.indafoto.hu/8/5/14925_5e2020a9be8dde3fd1fdd77c4d3b9762/2410625_5715150abb39989d64162e6827c5c090_xl.jpg)

yeah, Prague is seriously behind the schedule of the motorway ring... it should be ready now... :ohno:

we are in a much better situation here in budapest, but we couldnt be satisfied: the southern sector needs an immediate widening and the western section is still completely missing...

but you are right: the new eastern sector is extremely cool! :banana: :cheers:



Yeah man, very nice ring road :) I said we should envy you this one ;)

How are the preparation works for the part from Road 11 to Road 10 ongoing? And the M10 to Esztergom and Slovak border? It seems to as important connection too, do you think so?

How are the preparation works for the part from Road 11 to Road 10 ongoing? And the M10 to Esztergom and Slovak border? It seems to as important connection too, do you think so?

yes, I do.
unfortunately it is on an "environmentally sensitive area", so greenies are in full protest.
nimbys are also protesting against it, so the M0 has to be put on a long section into tunnels. (about 5km tunnel on a 9km long section between road #10 and #11) this makes it very expensive, and it has to be financed from budget (not financed by EU b/c it is not a europian corridor)

here are some plans:
M0: http://roads.extra.hu/road_plans/m0_11_10_a_a1.jpg
M10: http://roads.extra.hu/road_plans/m10_bp_pilisvorosvar.jpg

here you can find ALL of the plans of hungarian motorways we've found on internet:
http://roads.extra.hu/road_plans/gyorsforgalmi.html

Check out the new animation of M43 Szeged-Makó.

http://www.nif.hu/multimedia/gallery/474

This is perhaps the most entertaining visualization I've ever watched! Great camera movement, nice details (fisherman, deer). New Fellini in the making indeed! :)

Btw Hungary has in my opinion one of Europe's best concieved, built and kept motorway network. Definitely in comparison to the size of its economy. I rode on it this october and I was very impressed. I haven't seen such a smooth asphalt in all of my life as the one that is on some stretches of M1 (not to mention the shiny crashbarriers!:)). This may seem not so shocking considering I come from the Czech republic, the home of D1 (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=search_videos&search_query=d%C3%A1lnice+D1&search_sort=relevance&search_category=0&page=), but I drove on Struma on the same trip! :)

yes, I do.
unfortunately it is on an "environmentally sensitive area", so greenies are in full protest.
nimbys are also protesting against it, so the M0 has to be put on a long section into tunnels. (about 5km tunnel on a 9km long section between road #10 and #11) this makes it very expensive, and it has to be financed from budget (not financed by EU b/c it is not a europian corridor)

here are some plans:
M0: http://roads.extra.hu/road_plans/m0_11_10_a_a1.jpg
M10: http://roads.extra.hu/road_plans/m10_bp_pilisvorosvar.jpg

here you can find ALL of the plans of hungarian motorways we've found on internet:
http://roads.extra.hu/road_plans/gyorsforgalmi.html

Yeah, greenies and NIMBYs, the same everywhere :)))

And thanks for the link, I've added it to our link page (http://www.ceskedalnice.cz/odkazy.htm#evropa) :okay:

Yeah, greenies and NIMBYs, the same everywhere :)))

And thanks for the link, I've added it to our link page (http://www.ceskedalnice.cz/odkazy.htm#evropa) :okay:

Site is wrong regarding AKA. AKA operates only M5. autopalya.hu is the official site of the operational network, and nif.hu is company responsible for the coordination of infrastructure projects. aak.hu is the company who operates the network.
AAK-Állami Autópálya Kezelő (M0,M1,M3,M7)
NIF-Nemezeti Infrastruktúra Fejlesztő
AKA-Alföldi Koncessziós Autópálya (M5)

This is perhaps the most entertaining visualization I've ever watched! Great camera movement, nice details (fisherman, deer). New Fellini in the making indeed! :)

Anyone know which applications they use to make such a great visualizations?

Anyone know which applications they use to make such a great visualizations?

I'd guess a professional 3D modeling tool, like 3DS Max, Cinema 4D or Maya. Maybe also Photoshop for textures.

A bit earlier aerial photo of the u/c tunnels of M6...

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/306/kp1sp8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Looks funny, four tunnels in a row :lol:

Google Earth has updated the sat images of Budapest!
(maps.google not yet...)

new features:

- North Danube bridge of M0
- eastern sector of M0 between M3 and M31
- M6 between M0 IC and Érd oldvillage IC
- M4 underground stations
- sewage treatment plant on csepel

When will the M0 - M3 connection (M31?) be built?

^^ I think it is already U/C, and must be ready until May 2010. :cheers:

^^ I think it is already U/C, and must be ready until May 2010. :cheers:

Sadly it's not... :ohno: Only the M0-M31 interchange was built in connection with the eastern section development. Maybe next year...

Looks funny, four tunnels in a row :lol:

Yeah, maybe funny, but really impressive, if you take into account how "big" those hills are. I think it's a good decision, but was it connected with any problems or disputes saying that this is a too much expensive solution? What about higher bridges and cut&covers? Or is this some environmental issue?

Sadly it's not... :ohno: Only the M0-M31 interchange was built in connection with the eastern section development. Maybe next year...

http://www.nif.hu/fejlesztes/411

M31 autópálya (M0 - M3 autópályák közötti gödöllői átkötés)
Hossz: 12 km
Tipus: Gyorsforgalmi utak fejlesztése
Státusz: Folyamatban lévő

M0 - M3 autópályák közötti gödöllői átkötés (M31 autópálya)M31 Gödöllői átkötés

A beruházás várható befejezése: 2010. nyara
Kivitelező: C-H M 31” Konzorcium
Szerződéses összeg: 21.790.259.508,- Ft + Áfa

A beruházás besorolása: gyorsforgalmi út

A beruházás rövid bemutatása:

A megvalósítása után a létesítmény közúti kapcsolatot fog biztosítani az M0 gyorsforgalmi út keleti szektora és az M3 autópálya Gödöllői forgalmi csomópontja között. A létesítmény elsősorban az Észak-kelet Magyarország felé irányuló tranzitforgalom levezetésében bír jelentőséggel, ezért közúthálózati szerepe jelentős.
Megvalósításával tehermentesülni fog az épülő M0 útgyűrű Csömör-Árpádföld közötti szakasza a tranzitforgalomtól

Főbb műszaki paraméterei:

Kiépítés jellege: 2x2 forgalmi sávos autópálya
Tervezési sebesség: 110 km/h
Hossza: 12,41 km (00+000 – 12+410 km sz. között)

Jellemző keresztmetszeti kialakítása

koronaszélesség: 26,60 m
forgalmi sáv/útpálya szélessége: 3,75 m/7,50 m
leállósáv szélessége: 3,00 m
burkolatszélesség: 2x11,00 m
belső elválasztó sáv szélessége: 3,60 m

Csomópontok száma: 2 db

Műtárgyak száma: 21 db
felüljáró: 12 db
aluljáró: 9 db

Egyéb építmények
Komplex pihenőhellyé fejleszthető egyszerű pihenőhely: 1 db

Környezetvédelmi létesítmények
vadátjáró: 5 db
véderdő: 6,2 ha

Közműkiváltások
hírközlési vezeték: 6 db
elektromos vezeték: 12 db
víz- és csatornavezeték: 6 db
szénhidrogén-vezeték: 8 db

Autópálya - HÉV különszintű keresztezés kiépítése 1 db


It already has a constructor,so its construction will start soon,if havent already.

What do those dB's mean? I work with acoustical surveys all the time. :)

M3 currently ends at Nyíregyháza. Will it be extended to Ukraine (Uzhorod) or Romania (Satu Mare?)

What do those dB's mean? I work with acoustical surveys all the time. :)

Darab - piece

Yeah, maybe funny, but really impressive, if you take into account how "big" those hills are. I think it's a good decision, but was it connected with any problems or disputes saying that this is a too much expensive solution? What about higher bridges and cut&covers? Or is this some environmental issue?

Well,the ground there is made of loess(so my dictionary says),which is very sensitive to water,so the cut would have to be wide on the top. Besides,its not the altitude why these are built,but more like the density of hills,there's only a few hundred metres,maybe a km,of valleys between the tops.

M3 currently ends at Nyíregyháza. Will it be extended to Ukraine (Uzhorod) or Romania (Satu Mare?)

It will be started in the near future,maybe even before 2010. And it will go in both directions.
http://www.roads.extra.hu/road_plans/m300.jpg
(from roads.extra.hu)

M300, interesting. It the M3 to Berehova (UA) really necessary? It doesn't look like an important area in Ukraine.

I want to visit Hungary this summer. How is the knowledge of foreign languages (German/English?) in Hungary. Hungarian is just like Chinese to me.

M300, interesting. It the M3 to Berehova (UA) really necessary? It doesn't look like an important area in Ukraine.

I think M300 is a so future plan that its not even present on the development company's site,it is only present in the country's masterplan.

EDIT:

Here's the plan:
http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/4910/otrtvj5.jpg
(http://www.vati.hu/main.php?folderID=2017)

I want to visit Hungary this summer. How is the knowledge of foreign languages (German/English?) in Hungary. Hungarian is just like Chinese to me.

English among younger people,german among young/middle aged,russian among middle aged/old is the most probable.
BTW,this summer is long over:D

I want to visit Hungary this summer. How is the knowledge of foreign languages (German/English?) in Hungary. Hungarian is just like Chinese to me.

I don't think you'll have problems in Budapest. However in cities like Szeged, for example, it's a bit harder to find English speakers. In a major hypermarket, they had to find someone who spoke some broken Romanian for us - even though we were asking in English.

That's my experience, maybe I just had some bad luck. Though I think your knowledge of German will also come in handy, like RawLee said.

It already has a constructor,so its construction will start soon,if havent already.

Yeah I know, but I use M0 regularly,and from the motorway, I haven't even seen signs of ground works going on...

M3 currently ends at Nyíregyháza. Will it be extended to Ukraine (Uzhorod) or Romania (Satu Mare?)

The next section will be the Nyíregyháza-Mátészalka highway, until Mátészalka (M49-M3 junction) there will be only a motorway (2*1 lane) to Vásárosnamény. This will be a PPP project.
The EU funds the M49 motorway between Mátészalka and Csenger.

M300, interesting. It the M3 to Berehova (UA) really necessary? It doesn't look like an important area in Ukraine.

It's more like M300 is unnecessary here. Berehove is just on the way to Mukacheve and Lviv, whereas Uzhhorod is more like in a cul-de-sac.

Yeah, maybe funny, but really impressive, if you take into account how "big" those hills are. I think it's a good decision, but was it connected with any problems or disputes saying that this is a too much expensive solution? What about higher bridges and cut&covers? Or is this some environmental issue?

nope. this is a "tunneling issue"
(this is nice job and the beggining of a beautiful frendship between a government and a tunneling firm... :lol: )

Which new motorwaysections will be completed until June 2009?

M3 currently ends at Nyíregyháza. Will it be extended to Ukraine (Uzhorod) or Romania (Satu Mare?)

I hope not yet.... :)

Which new motorwaysections will be completed until June 2009?

Maybe Márkó bypass on future M8. Its possible M2 will be widened to 2x2 by 2009, minor part of M86(Vát bypass),and maybe a part of M43.

Though I dont know how accurate is this,its better than nothing:
http://www.roads.extra.hu/road_plans/roads_hungary_2015.jpg
(from roads.extra.hu)

nope. this is a "tunneling issue"
(this is nice job and the beggining of a beautiful frendship between a government and a tunneling firm... :lol: )

Nice :) I see we have something in common in this "business" as well :)

Thank for clear answer :lol:

A bit earlier aerial photo of the u/c tunnels of M6...

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/306/kp1sp8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Cut&covers would be more than enough (and also much cheaper) solution, at least for first and third tunnel. Where is that exactly?

Cut&covers would be more than enough (and also much cheaper) solution, at least for first and third tunnel. Where is that exactly?

Somewhere here:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=46.195993,18.652382&spn=0.107416,0.2211&t=h&z=12

EDIT: you can see here better why they are needed,and why the area cant be bypassed:

http://www.mapy.cz/#x=143251456@y=121868288@z=9@mm=ZRPf

As I said,ground is not the most stable here. Its of this material:

http://www.geocaching.hu/cacheimages/2005-09/4701_20050929_130419.jpg

Marl... that doesn't seem to solid.

^^That's what we have in Southern-Limburg, right?

Actually the M6 will go near the small villages of Mórágy and Véménd, bypassing them from the East. The section with tunnels is between these 2 villages. You can check it out on the map posted by RawLee.

I noticed road 4 got a lot of bypasses. Seems like quite a fast route between Budapest and eastern Hungary.

Marl... that doesn't seem to solid.

It isnt. You can crumb it with your hand.

I noticed road 4 got a lot of bypasses. Seems like quite a fast route between Budapest and eastern Hungary.

Not really. Most of it is 2x1. Its still maybe an hour longer to Debrecen than via M3-M35,if not more.

The M6
http://roads.extra.hu/road_plans/m6_bataszek_vemend.jpg

Another map (http://roads.extra.hu/road_plans/m6_szekszard_boly_hm.jpg) and more (http://roads.extra.hu/road_plans/gyorsforgalmi.html#m6)

The Main Road 4 isn't a fast one. Very-very busy.
A new road will be built between Üllő and Albertirsa (2*2 lane), the exiting bypass will be fully upgraded between Albertirsa and Abony (maybe the Abony bypass also).

As I said,ground is not the most stable here. Its of this material:

Interesting, because you're building underground nuclear waste shelter about 7 km away. That sort of building needs very good geology. And if there is difficult geology, then building a tunnel with low overburden is even more demanding (and costly).

Interesting, because you're building underground nuclear waste shelter about 7 km away. That sort of building needs very good geology. And if there is difficult geology, then building a tunnel with low overburden is even more demanding (and costly).

It is in a stable geological formation,deep inside(1500m)/below(250m) the hill. It is for low and medium activity waste.

Looking at longitudinal profile here
http://roads.extra.hu/road_plans/m6_szekszard_boly_hm.jpg
second and fourth tunnel (first and third on above aerial photo) are really not necessary. And if alignment would go a bit higher (10 m maybe) longer and higher viaducts between tunnels would make motorway on that part much more cheap and only first tunnel would be necessary.

^^ An expert said: a viaduct is more expensive than a tunnel in that area.

(I dont believe that... :nuts:)

I agree with your suggestion:
http://img8.indafoto.hu/8/5/14925_5e2020a9be8dde3fd1fdd77c4d3b9762/916549_f3b291a154e94e8a3ccbf4c87a17428b_m.jpg (http://img8.indafoto.hu/8/5/14925_5e2020a9be8dde3fd1fdd77c4d3b9762/916549_f3b291a154e94e8a3ccbf4c87a17428b_xl.jpg)

Looking at longitudinal profile here
http://roads.extra.hu/road_plans/m6_szekszard_boly_hm.jpg
second and fourth tunnel (first and third on above aerial photo) are really not necessary. And if alignment would go a bit higher (10 m maybe) longer and higher viaducts between tunnels would make motorway on that part much more cheap and only first tunnel would be necessary.

I'd rather trust an expert than anybody else,as this is their job. Why not doubt those who develop airbags? They are really unnecessary,as they are rarely used,but raise the cost of the car. Most people never have the chance to use it:nuts: I personally feel that even if these tunnels wont save enough fuel in 50 years to justify their costs,they will save more than enough through their lifetime.

Can't be. Especially when looking what kind of viaducts are currently in construction in those valleys (pretty simple and inexpensive).
Tunnels in Panonia-type of geology were always expensive and difficult to build.

Can't be. Especially when looking what kind of viaducts are currently in construction in those valleys (pretty simple and inexpensive).
Tunnels in Panonia-type of geology were always expensive and difficult to build.

And big and heavy bridges are not in danger because of unstable terrain?

I'd rather trust an expert than anybody else,as this is their job.
Let say, that I work in designing such things, so I know quite a lot of that. Shorter tunnels are cheaper than longer, but even better is having none of them. Of course don't mix here Koroshegy-type viaducts.:lol:

And big and heavy bridges are not in danger because of unstable terrain?
They are, but tunnels are even more.

Maybe Hungarians just want to have some tunnels. :)

I'd rather trust an expert than anybody else,as this is their job.

what if that expert talks for himself? :lol:

Maybe Hungarians just want to have some tunnels. :)

nope.
not the hungarians but the austrian tunnel builders (strabag) - who are in good friendship with the government - want to build tunnels...

HERE is a construction gallery (http://teol.hu/html/kepgaleria_html/25000/25048_frame.html)

This won't be the first tunnel without a hill. ;)

Guess the country. :lol:


http://www.delo.si/assets/media/picture/20081029/sz5_predor-cenkova_avtocesta_delavci_pojbic.jpg
Photo: Jože Pojbič/Delo

This won't be the first tunnel without a hill. ;)

Guess the country. :lol:


are you talking about this tunnel?
(I can see a hill above it... :)

http://shrani.si/f/14/Y/2EovDePP/pb021452.jpg
http://shrani.si/f/f/iX/46cy0B92/pb021454.jpg

are you talking about this tunnel?
(I can see a hill above it... :)

Here's your hill.Now can you stop ranting?
http://m6m60.extra.hu/images/szekszard_boly/455.jpg

http://m6m60.extra.hu/images/szekszard_boly/205.jpg

http://m6m60.extra.hu/images/szekszard_boly/226.jpg
(from m6m60.extra.hu)

Here's your hill.Now can you stop ranting?

No. No. NO. NO. NO! NO! NOOOOO! :lol:

^^:rofl:

We only have tunnels for passing canals and rivers. AFAIK we don't have any tunnels for hills, but Chris will probably prove me wrong again :D

http://www.khem.gov.hu/data/cms1558702/08_ind_k.jpg (http://www.khem.gov.hu/data/cms1558703/08_ind.jpg) Motorway constructions at the present time. ( blue) main roads (green)

http://www.khem.gov.hu/data/cms1558708/gyorsforg_k.jpg (http://195.228.157.156/feladataink/kozlekedes/kozlekedespol/utfejlesztes/anim)
...and this should be the result within a few years.

Can't be. Especially when looking what kind of viaducts are currently in construction in those valleys (pretty simple and inexpensive).
Tunnels in Panonia-type of geology were always expensive and difficult to build.

that's true. here in Croatia we are experienced with tunnels, and one of the most expensive and most complicated to build were 2 tunnels near Varaždin at A4

^^ the 8km section of M6 including 3km tunnel and 1.3km viaduct costs about 200M eur... :bash:

^^ the 8km section of M6 including 3km tunnel and 1.3km viaduct costs about 200M eur... :bash:

That's pretty cheap.

25 mill € per km is not cheap, it is about double average price

Yeah, the Dutch A4 in Midden-Delfland (just some rural area) will cost 100 million euro's.......per km :ohno:

25 mill € per km is not cheap, it is about double average price

Yes, but you cannot compare it to 8 km section in some lowland without any tunnels and longer bridges. If I take into account length of the tunnel and viaduct it's pretty cheap (at least if I compare it to the prices in Slovakia).

Yeah, the Dutch A4 in Midden-Delfland (just some rural area) will cost 100 million euro's.......per km :ohno:

so thats an oktople average price... :lol:

Yes, but you cannot compare it to 8 km section in some lowland without any tunnels and longer bridges. If I take into account length of the tunnel and viaduct it's pretty cheap (at least if I compare it to the prices in Slovakia).

well, i'm considering about it too ;) ok, then it is not double, but average price is still under 20 mil. per km. but prices of motorways' construction are really variable, like there's no rule. in Croatia the most expensive one will be the easiest to build :ohno:

The southern section of M0 between M1 and M5 will be full profile from the end of 2011!

Development starts next year.

Deadline for the sections between M1-M6 and Main road 51-M5 is 30th of June 2011. The section between M6 and Main road 51 with two new Danube bridges is supposed to be finished by the 31st of Dec 2011.

Other developments starting next year:

- M43 from Makó till the border
- M9 Expressway between Dusnok and Main road 54 (12,3 kms)
- Hopefully M44 between Kondoros and Tiszakürt (63 kms)

That's pretty cheap.

I think it was wrong data...

it is rather 1,5 - 2 times more... (300-400M eur)

Other developments starting next year:

- M43 from Makó till the border
- M9 Expressway between Dusnok and Main road 54 (12,3 kms)
- Hopefully M44 between Kondoros and Tiszakürt (63 kms)

M44 is a PPP project, probably start next year.
M3 between Nyíregyháza and Vásárosnamény also.

New and reconstructed roads until 2013:
http://index.hu/cikkepek/0812/gazdasag/kozut800585.jpg

I don't think you'll have problems in Budapest. However in cities like Szeged, for example, it's a bit harder to find English speakers. In a major hypermarket, they had to find someone who spoke some broken Romanian for us - even though we were asking in English.

That's my experience, maybe I just had some bad luck. Though I think your knowledge of German will also come in handy, like RawLee said.

I was only once in Hungary in Hajduszoboszlo and nobody spoke English. My friends, when they were reternig, they visited Budapest and also had problems to comunicate in English. Maybe bad luck.

M44 is a PPP project, probably start next year.
M3 between Nyíregyháza and Vásárosnamény also.

New and reconstructed roads until 2013:
http://index.hu/cikkepek/0812/gazdasag/kozut800585.jpg

Can you please give the link to this image (maybe a larger version), and pertaining legend in English? Thank you

Can you please give the link to this image (maybe a larger version), and pertaining legend in English? Thank you

Large version (http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/4451/plyatervqf6.jpg)

Legend (in order)
- Strengthen main roads (11,5 t/axle)
- Existing main roads with 2*2 lane
- Existing motorways
- Existing half profile motorways
- Existing half profile motorways (upgraged until 2013)
- Planned new main roads egy bypasses
- Strengthen main roads until 2013
- Planned 2*2 lane main roads (uprage and new road)
- Planned motorways
- Planned half-profile motorways

The M9 is marked as full profile motorway, but the full section is built/planned with half profile.

edit

I will make some comments to this strategy, especially related to the sections in Eastern Hungary (as I am from Romania).

1. The planning mistakes from the M3/M35 corridor continue.

You're absolutely right! The M3-M35 juction would be ideally between Hajdúdorog and Újfehértó.

2. It's funny how M8 between M5 and M44 is single carriageway, and after the junction, M44 is double carriageway (when, obviously, traffic on the M8 section mentioned above will be greater than on M44).

Yes, It's a political motorway. A 2*1 motorway would be perfect (and recommended). But I don't think M6 would be enough with 2*1.
The short M5-M44 section in M8 would be better with

[QUOTE=wdw35;29615910]Also, M4 from M0 to Szolnok should clearly be 2x2.[/QUTOE]

I don't know why would be the M4 full 2*2 except Abony and Kisújszállás bypass. :bash:

[QUOTE=wdw35;29615910]3. I strongly believe that the M9 section between M5 and M6 should've been in the plan until 2013, at least as 2x1 (instead of, say, doing M44 2x2 or the rest of M9 2x2).[/QUTOE]

M9 will be 2*1 (I know, the map shows 2*2)!

I think M9(or M8,for that matter) must be built in one phase. If we build it in segments,we lure the traffic from M1 and M3 to the county roads...which will do more harm than if we dont build them at al.

I think M9(or M8,for that matter) must be built in one phase. If we build it in segments,we lure the traffic from M1 and M3 to the county roads...which will do more harm than if we dont build them at al.
I don't get what those roads have to do with each other :dunno:
Looking at the map, they're going in totally different directions...

M8 and M9 are both alternative west-east connections to the M1-M3 corridor, and when built they will attract a significant amount of transit traffic (especially trucks), not to mention they will shorten some distances.
The point that RawLee was trying to make is that if they are not built completely "in one phase" (give or take a few years), roads 62 and 61 (ot 55) will be jammed with trucks.

I don't get what those roads have to do with each other :dunno:
Looking at the map, they're going in totally different directions...

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/2154/tvonaler1.jpg

When they get built,romanians,bulgarians,turks and ukrainans will use M8 or M9. If they are not built on the whole length in one move,we just relocate the traffic from M3/M1 to these roads,even if there's no motorway all the way.

I see. So currently a truck going from let's say Pecs to Romania/Ukraine (I don't know if that kind of traffic is really significant) will take M3 motorway or will rather try to make its way through local roads heading east?

I see. So currently a truck going from let's say Pecs to Romania/Ukraine (I don't know if that kind of traffic is really significant) will take M3 motorway or will rather try to make its way through local roads heading east?

Since the bridge on the Danube is ready,and Szeged also has bridges,it will not use motorways if Romania is the destination.For Ukraine,it might even go west to M7. But this is not about domestic destinations,its about international transportation. And the fastest way will clearly be not Mx and M1,but M9 or M8. And this is especially true if we take into account that M0 will never be a high speed route...

Thanks for the explanation. I think there must be a M9 link between M6 and M43 in the first place, that would create a direct, fast transit route to the east and south. It's a pity that there will be a missing link between 2x2 section of route 4 and M4 near Szolnok. Why is it not planned as a motorway standard?
Also, it seems like Budapest will remain affected by transit traffic for many more years from now.

"I see. So currently a truck going from let's say Pecs to Romania/Ukraine (I don't know if that kind of traffic is really significant) will take M3 motorway or will rather try to make its way through local roads heading east?"

Since the bridge on the Danube is ready,and Szeged also has bridges,it will not use motorways if Romania is the destination.

Well, that is not a satisfactory answer.
To answer the initial question, it depends where the truck goes.
If the truck goes to Nagylak, of course it won't use the motorway (no one in their right mind would use the motorways - through Budapest - to get from Pecs to Szeged anyway). Motorways are very cheap in Hungary. :) ... but fuel is the most expensive in the region :( so it pays off to use the motorway.

But if they go to Bors or Petea/Csengersima they will surely use the motorways.

Also trucks will use M5-M7 as a route of transit from Romania (to Italy etc.)

I will comment that, to my surprise, the amount of Romanian trucks on M7 is greater than on M3!!

I
Now the stupidity continues if you look at the M35 / M4 junction area.
First of all M4 should've been planned NORTH of Berretyoufalu, such as to allow people coming from Debrecen (and Nyiregyhaza) to go west/south on the M4.

2. It's funny how M8 between M5 and M44 is single carriageway, and after the junction, M44 is double carriageway (when, obviously, traffic on the M8 section mentioned above will be greater than on M44).
Also, M4 from M0 to Szolnok should clearly be 2x2.
It is also pretty obvious that M44 is another "political" motorway (much like the M6), and one carriageway woudl've been more than enough from M8 to Bekescsaba (as it's the case of M6, south of Dunaujvaros).

you are damn right.

3. It's good to see that M43 is now entirely planned 2x2 (I think the initial plan had 2x1 east of Maroslele), but I strongly believe that the M9 section between M5 and M6 should've been in the plan until 2013, at least as 2x1 (instead of, say, doing M44 2x2 or the rest of M9 2x2).

why?
to bypass the beograd-zagreb motorway?


4. Sad to see that M0 north won't be finalized in the next 5 years. We all know of the various problems of this project, and I think a good alternative would've been a wider motorway bypass, starting from M3 Hatvan, going south of Vac and Estergom and ending in M1 west of Tatabanya.

nope.
you cannot build a motorway in the bend of danube...
(and check the terrain... :))

I think M9(or M8,for that matter) must be built in one phase. If we build it in segments,we lure the traffic from M1 and M3 to the county roads...which will do more harm than if we dont build them at al.

...and your hand will hang into the shit-pot... :lol:

(time to wake up... :lol:)

M8 and M9 are both alternative west-east connections to the M1-M3 corridor...

nope.

M1 and M3 (and M5 and M7) ARE helsinki (europian) corridors...

M8 and M9 are local motorways.

There are no such things as helsinki corridor bypasses... :nuts:

I see. So currently a truck going from let's say Pecs to Romania/Ukraine (I don't know if that kind of traffic is really significant) will take M3 motorway or will rather try to make its way through local roads heading east?

Thats a very insignificant traffic... for that volume a good main road is enough (yet and for some decades)

And this is especially true if we take into account that M0 will never be a high speed route...

maybe you dont know: a truck is limited to 90km/h on motorways and 70km/h on expressways...

on the 28km long "M0 south" a truck will loose 5 minutes...

do you think it is a significant time loss on an international route? :lol:

Also trucks will use M5-M7 as a route of transit from Romania (to Italy etc.)

thats a problem.
they should go on the beograd-zagreb motorway...

advantages: it is shorter and it is ready.
(only problem is the serbian bordercrossing...)

maybe you dont know: a truck is limited to 90km/h on motorways and 70km/h on expressways...

on the 28km long "M0 south" a truck will loose 5 minutes...

do you think it is a significant time loss on an international route? :lol:

And when was the last day when there wasnt a traffic jam on it? The sooner we get rid of international through-traffic on M0,the later we will have to widen it to 2x4.

Besides,the Romania-Serbia-Croatia-Slovenia-Italy route will never work. They would need to pay toll in 5 different countries, whereas in this case,they only have to buy 4(Romania-Hungary-Austria/Slovenia-Italy). And since the destination is usually Germany,we are the only possible route. No matter how you dont like it or dont want to accept it,we will need M8 or M9 soon. The countries of the Balkans are emerging fast,and only more trucks will come this way,and I dont think anybody in their sane mind would want to direct that traffic into the middle of a 2,5 million agglomeration.

So the conclusion is that we need them. But if we build them in sections,we just unleash the immense freight traffic on the county roads in Tolna,Somogy,Zala and Vas counties until the whole length is built.

And when was the last day when there wasnt a traffic jam on it? The sooner we get rid of international through-traffic on M0,the later we will have to widen it to 2x4.

with 2x3+1 it will have enough capacity fo a long time.

currently only the M6-M5 section is overcrowded (the M1-M6 section IS NOT) b/c it is a danube crossing for local traffic.

by building the galvani and albertfalvi bridges (and connecting roads) we could reduce significantly the traffic on the danube crossing section of M0 south...

and another important thing:

the M1-M0-M5 and M3-M0-M7 ARE helsinki corridors...

the M8 and M9 are local motor/expressways...

Besides,the Romania-Serbia-Croatia-Slovenia-Italy route will never work. They would need to pay toll in 5 different countries, whereas in this case,they only have to buy 4(Romania-Hungary-Austria/Slovenia-Italy).

wow. thats quite a difference... :lol:

And since the destination is usually Germany,we are the only possible route.

nope.
they can go on the beograd-zagred-maribor-graz-germany route... :lol:

and I dont think anybody in their sane mind would want to direct that traffic into the middle of a 2,5 million agglomeration.

ok.
what bypasses do you suggest for bratislava, praha, dresden?

they are on the IVth corridor like budapest and their current bypasses (if there are any) are as close to these cities as the M0 to budapest or even closer... :nuts:

IMO it's better to just build the motorway so that you're ready for the vast amount of truck traffic that is coming from the Balkan, then just wait and see. We (and Germany) did the last thing and see what happened on the A1 in the Netherlands (undercapacity all the way) and to the A2 in Germany (two major truck routes coming together at Bad Oeynhausen - trouble)

Yes, It's a political motorway. A 2*1 motorway would be perfect (and recommended). But I don't think M6 would be enough with 2*1.
The short M5-M44 section in M8 would be better with

[
M9 will be 2*1 (I know, the map shows 2*2)![/QUOTE]

What the hell will hungary with 2*1 lanes this not modern, the traffic in future increase not decrease!!!!!!

^^

But you have the main road. Half of the existing traffic will stay on it.
When we reach 10-12 thousand units a day we can double it easily.

IMO it's better to just build the motorway so that you're ready for the vast amount of truck traffic that is coming from the Balkan, then just wait and see. We (and Germany) did the last thing and see what happened on the A1 in the Netherlands (undercapacity all the way) and to the A2 in Germany (two major truck routes coming together at Bad Oeynhausen - trouble)

undercapacity is really a problem, but the solution is not to build new 2x2 routes to alleviate existing 2x2 routes but to widen the existing 2x2s...

you are doing this exactly: widen existing routes from 2x2 to 2x3 or 2x4...
(so the method is right, only the tempo is too slow... :lol:)

Our problem is: we are building very expensive motorways for extremely low traffic (e.g. 3-5.000 AADT) while we are postponing very needed motorways and main road bypasses and neglecting our main and local roads...

(an example: the traffic volume on the M0 "east" is about 40-50.000! immediately after its opening!
this traffic is siphoned from local roads!
this is total abnormal to let things degenerate to this scale...
this road should have been built at least 15 years ago...)


(my user title refers to this anomaly... :nuts:)

no trucker will choose romania-serbia-croatia-slovenia-italy route because there are 6 border control posts.on romania-hungary-austria/slovenia-italy route there is only ONE control post(romania-hungary joint border control).these border crossings costs lot of time for truckers, and TIME IS MONEY.
it's your job as a country to try to absorb a greater part of international traffic because it generates money(proffit for rest areas, vignettes) and that's why a good infrastructure is necessary.besides,m8 and m9 will connect parts of country that are quite far from current motorways, and will boost economy in some poorer areas.and, if u start thinking now about these motorways, they will be ready probably in 2015-2017 and traffic will increase a lot till then.with m8, m9 and existing radial motorways build till country's borders, motorway system in hungary is quite finished.

How's the Röszke border crossing into Serbia? I heard the Serbian - Croatian border crossings are pretty bad (strict controls by the military), but Röszke might be better?

nope.

M1 and M3 (and M5 and M7) ARE helsinki (europian) corridors...

M8 and M9 are local motorways.

There are no such things as helsinki corridor bypasses... :nuts:

Nope nope.

Helsinki corridors (and TEN and other similar exercises) it's just a load of bureaucratic bull-sh!t, essentially lines drawn by Bruxelles.
Some losers don't have a means to justify their public money paid salaries, so they come up with renumbering E-roads or drawing various corridor maps.
User won't choose roads based on their label as a TEN-T or HC, or other completely irrelevant stuff.

Besides, I was using the notion "corridor" as it is used in Transportation Engineering, has nothing to do with the pan-european corridors.

How's the Röszke border crossing into Serbia? I heard the Serbian - Croatian border crossings are pretty bad (strict controls by the military), but Röszke might be better?

Currently the jam at the checkpoint paralysed Szeged...literally.

^^ This was Röszke on Saturday:

http://index.hu/cikkepek/0812/bulvar/roszke.jpg

It means holidays are coming :banana:
:cheers:

no trucker will choose romania-serbia-croatia-slovenia-italy route because there are 6 border control posts.on romania-hungary-austria/slovenia-italy route there is only ONE control post(romania-hungary joint border control).these border crossings costs lot of time for truckers, and TIME IS MONEY.

yeah, thats a problem.

the solution: EU have to be extended to croatia and serbia and voila, the problem is solved without any extra motorway.... :lol:



it's your job as a country to try to absorb a greater part of international traffic because it generates money(proffit for rest areas, vignettes) and that's why a good infrastructure is necessary.

yeah, the transit trucks will pay the price of 100kms of new motorways with the 10euro stickers... :lol:

good infrastructure is really necessary, but our main roads are also part of this infrastructure.
and they are in extremely shit condition... :bash:


besides,m8 and m9 will connect parts of country that are quite far from current motorways, and will boost economy in some poorer areas.and, if u start thinking now about these motorways, they will be ready probably in 2015-2017 and traffic will increase a lot till then.with m8, m9 and existing radial motorways build till country's borders, motorway system in hungary is quite finished.

an advice: dont dream awake... :lol:

IMO the development of the main road network is also boosts eco and you can develop 5 times more main road than motorway from the same money...

Nope nope.

Helsinki corridors (and TEN and other similar exercises) it's just a load of bureaucratic bull-sh!t, essentially lines drawn by Bruxelles.
Besides, I was using the notion "corridor" as it is used in Transportation Engineering, has nothing to do with the pan-european corridors.

ok. heres the question again:

what bypasses do you suggest for bratislava, praha, dresden?

they are on the IVth corridor like budapest and their current bypasses (if there are any) are as close to these cities as the M0 to budapest or even closer...

do you think that all of them are stupid only we are the wise and clever?

in other words: why dont they plan huge bypasses - which go 40-60km away from these towns?

(b/c NOBODY plans this kind of bypasses apart from us... :lol:)

^^ This was Röszke on Saturday:

http://index.hu/cikkepek/0812/bulvar/roszke.jpg

It means holidays are coming :banana:
:cheers:

this looks like hegyeshalom (when my parents came home from austria) although theres no border control... :lol:

Currently the jam at the checkpoint paralysed Szeged...literally.

how do you mean?
do you want to say the queue reached the M43 IC? (it would be a 15km long queue...:nuts:)

How's the Röszke border crossing into Serbia? I heard the Serbian - Croatian border crossings are pretty bad (strict controls by the military), but Röszke might be better?

there's no military anymore. Serbia kept military on border till 30th October 2006, Croatian military left border somewhen in 1990s. the only problem at the border could be gastarbeiters going home to Bulgaria, Turkey, Serbia, Macedonia who can make crowds in holidays' seasons. there's even no things as 10€ for desinfection or similar things which could be seen at bulgarian or romanian borders (of course, no bills for those services).

Unfortunatly (but understandable) Hungary is slowing down with constructions of new motorways for the upcoming years. :ohno: The good news is that the railroad-system is going to be better. (IN TIME!!!).:banana:

Unfortunatly (but understandable) Hungary is slowing down with constructions of new motorways for the upcoming years. :ohno: The good news is that the railroad-system is going to be better. (IN TIME!!!).:banana:

we should plow up the rail tracks, so we could spare quite a huge amount of money...

and this money could be (re)dericted to the roads... :lol:

we should plow up the rail tracks, so we could spare quite a huge amount of money...

and this money could be (re)dericted to the roads... :lol:
What about those people without cars??
....They can "just" buy one:lol:

^^ It has been calculated that it would be cheaper to stop all public transportation and hire a taxi for those who really have no alternative in certain situations (as in: non-megacitie situations). But it differs from location to location ofcourse.

What about those people without cars??
....They can "just" buy one:lol:

they can go by bus... (buses need roads too... :lol:)

well, my previous post was a little bit excessive... but iam a little bit angry about this railway-strike... (fucking sonofabitches leaves commuters is shit...)

so, i think the main lines shouldnt be plow up, it is needed for goods hauling...

(there are some goods which can be hauled by trains economically)

and whithout the pessenger trains on the tracks the goodstrains could be travel much more freely and in greater volume...

so, i think the main lines shouldnt be plow up, it is needed for goods hauling...

(there are some goods which can be hauled by trains economically)



Is it much? In the Netherlands it is 0,8% vs 99,2% if you compare it with truck tonnage.

^^ It has been calculated that it would be cheaper to stop all public transportation and hire a taxi for those who really have no alternative in certain situations (as in: non-megacitie situations). But it differs from location to location ofcourse.

yeah...
two years ago our transp. minister said the same when they explained the plan for plowing up some feeder lines... :lol:

Is it much? In the Netherlands it is 0,8% vs 99,2% if you compare it with truck tonnage.

well, its not insignificant. check this graph:

http://www.kti.hu/downloads/trendek/uj/5-010__HU.jpg

legend:
green: rail / red: road / blue: water/ grey: pipe

vertical axis: bilion tonna km

I support the rail when it is profitable. but I do not support subsidizing of rail cargo... :)

how do you mean?
do you want to say the queue reached the M43 IC? (it would be a 15km long queue...:nuts:)

http://www.delmagyar.hu/szeged_hirek/mar_negy_ora_varakozas_roszkenel_/2081739/

A határátkelőhelyen kilépésre várakozó autósor az M5-ös autópályán egészen a Szeged- Észak lehajtóig torlódott fel, valamint az M43-ason is több kilométeres sor áll, ezért a rendőrség arra kéri az autósokat, hogy Szeged- Nyugatnál hagyják el az autópályát, akik Szegedre igyekeznek. A rendőrök a Szeged- Észak lehajtónál jelen vannak, illetve szakaszolják a forgalmat a Budapesti krt - Dorozsmai út kereszteződésében is.

I support the rail when it is profitable. but I do not support subsidizing of rail cargo... :)

MÁV Cargo is not subsidized. It actually brings profit(and was sold because if it to ÖBB...)

http://www.delmagyar.hu/szeged_hirek/mar_negy_ora_varakozas_roszkenel_/2081739/

wow. thats ridiculous...
I presume the serb border check is too slow... :bash:


MÁV Cargo is not subsidized. It actually brings profit(and was sold because if it to ÖBB...)

I dont know the costs and revenues...
is the track toll enough for track repair and development?
if not it is subsidized.

e.g. I know the RoLa (szeged-wels) is subsidized.
it is reduces the traffic on the M5-M0-M1 route by 80truck/day for 3million euro/year subsidy...
(thats ridiculous low number... :ohno:)

MÁV doesnt own the tracks,the country does. Both Start,Cargo and Trakció pay for their usage. And Cargo brings in profit. And soon will Trakció too.
I coldnt find exact numbers,but I've found some sources claiming a few billion HUFs.

MÁV doesnt own the tracks,the country does. Both Start,Cargo and Trakció pay for their usage. And Cargo brings in profit. And soon will Trakció too.
I coldnt find exact numbers,but I've found some sources claiming a few billion HUFs.

wow. I didnt know that.
thats correct situation: usage of tracks generates revenues to the budget.

but "few billions" is ridiculous low...
the repair and development of tracks recquires at least 100billion/year...

the road users pay much more: somewhere between 600-800mrd/year...

Its the reason why NIF handles those projects. NIF handles all projects that are built(or already owned) by the country. If it is not the case(so its PPP),then they only oversee it.

Just think of it. If MÁV would own the tracks,that would be monopoly,which is against the law(because they would allow only those private companies to operate,who pay bribe). And since there are a number of private operators in the country...its the same with roads. If you own the road("private road",as the law puts it),you decide who can use it...

i doubt that MÁV could own tracks because you have another strong operater - GySEV. btw do they do only passenger traffic or also freight?

Its the reason why NIF handles those projects.

thats clear.

they should increase the track toll at least tenfold (a 20-30* increase would be more better) and this revenue would be enough for great developments...

(or everybody would flee from the rail... :lol:)

edit

Hungary is not radial because of that. Its simply history,older than the commie times. Hungary will never be multipolar,the city is too central for it.

Hungary is not radial because of that. Its simply history,older than the commie times. Hungary will never be multipolar,the city is too central for it.

you mean: the capital is too central...

this story goes back to the middle of the 19th century when the railway network started to develop...

Just look at Milan; for everyone that drove in the region: try to imagine what life would be without A21 (hell!).

I dont know Milan...
what is the traffic volume on A4 near Milan and what on the A21?

was A4 a europian corridor, and was it shifted to the A21?

because the AADT of M0 south is about 50.000 of which 10-15.000 is international traffic...

these are ridiculous low numbers this transit doesnt recquire shifting/redirection... yet... :nuts:


Look at Vienna and imagine how much better west - east transit traffic would be handled if the A21 were extended, east up to the A6/A4 junction (around Bruck an der Leitha). And examples could continue...


yes it is really assymetric a litle bit, but extending it to east of the schwechat airport would be enough...

but that alignment is NOT a HUGE bypass...
this way that would be the same as the M0 of budapest... (check the ferihegy airport) :)


Indeed, the cities in our region (Budapest, Zagreb) maybe have not yet reached the economic development to justify this construction, or maybe the infra planners are not sufficiently intelligent to realize the need for such a distant bypass.

the first statement is the right... :)


But someone was saying on the HR forum that instead of building the Zagreb north bypass, it would be better to build a second, further, southern bypass (between A1 and A3). The same is true for Budapest.

nope.
the south bypass of zagreb can be widened to 2x3 and this capacity will be enough for decades...
later a litle bit larger (+10km) 2nd bypass will be needed.. (but not a HUGE +40-60km bypass)


Always remember that a matricial infrastructure is the sign of a developed economy, while a radial one is the sign of a less-developed (and centralized, no pun intended) one.

nope.
matricial system is for countries whith MANY LARGE centers... like germany...
radial&orbital system is for countries with ONE LARGE center... like hungary...


we are building the radial motorways at first b/c the most of the traffic goes in radial pattern (towards the "one and only" LARGE center)

far from this LARGE center the capacity of the orbital main roads is enough... YET...

when this capacity will nearing exhaustion we have to start building the orbital motor/expressways...

this is the right schedule of the development of our system...

thats clear.

they should increase the track toll at least tenfold (a 20-30* increase would be more better) and this revenue would be enough for great developments...

(or everybody would flee from the rail... :lol:)

If you increase track toll everybody will flee from the rail. It's case of Slovakia. We have terribly high track toll. Now the government is going to decrease it to avoid strike of railway employees. Maybe it will help to our overcrowded roads as well.

If you increase track toll everybody will flee from the rail. It's case of Slovakia. We have terribly high track toll. Now the government is going to decrease it to avoid strike of railway employees. Maybe it will help to our overcrowded roads as well.

thats funny.

railway fans always say: "road users should pay for roads more..."

(my little silly ones dont know (or dont want to know) that the road users pay ENOURMOUS amount of money for roads... MUCH MORE what it really costs...)

and when I say: "track users should pay the price of the repair and development of tracks" you reply: it would be toooo much, and nobody would use the tracks... :lol:

well, in a market economy it means: it is NOT ECONOMIC...

striking railway emloyees? no problem... fire them! :lol:

thats funny.

railway fans always say: "road users should pay for roads more..."

(my little silly ones dont know (or dont want to know) that the road users pay ENOURMOUS amount of money for roads... MUCH MORE what it really costs...)

and when I say: "track users should pay the price of the repair and development of tracks" you reply: it would be toooo much, and nobody would use the tracks... :lol:

well, in a market economy it means: it is NOT ECONOMIC...

striking railway emloyees? no problem... fire them! :lol:

In Slovakia we have ridiculously cheap vignettes for trucks. One year vignette for vehicle from 3.5 to 12t costs € 448.12; for vehicle above 12 t it's € 929.43. But, there are also one month, one week and even one day vignettes. One day vignette for vehicle above 12t costs only € 9.96. Overall incomes from vignettes for vehicles above 3.5 t and 12 t are not enough for maintenance and construction of tolled roads.

One the other hand we have the highest track toll on railways in entire EU. It's about € 9. In Hungary it's € 5, in Austria and Czech Republic it's from € 3 to € 4. Only 33% of the cost of maintenance of railways is paid by state. In Czech Republic and Hungary it's 50%, in Austria it's 70%.

Next year we are going to introduce (hopefully) electronic toll for vehicles above 3.5t and railway toll will decrease (it should be compensated by higher payments from state).

BTW, three Slovak railway companies have about 35 thousand employees. It would be quite complicated to fire them all.;)

One day vignette for vehicle above 12t costs only € 9.96.

actually, €11,03. it is SKK 300.- and on the bill there is written also €9,96, but when foreign drivers pay in €, they take €11,03. the same thing do Hungarians - their vignette costs HUF 2760.- but they take 13-15€. the cheapest (except paying in HUF) is to buy it at slovenian selling offices where they take €12

actually, €11,03. it is SKK 300.- and on the bill there is written also €9,96, but when foreign drivers pay in €, they take €11,03. the same thing do Hungarians - their vignette costs HUF 2760.- but they take 13-15€. the cheapest (except paying in HUF) is to buy it at slovenian selling offices where they take €12

Well, official currency in Slovakia is Slovak koruna and for 8 days and 2 and half hour from now it still will be:D. So paying in some other currency is some kind of extra service which is not for free.

actually, €11,03. it is SKK 300.- and on the bill there is written also €9,96, but when foreign drivers pay in €, they take €11,03. the same thing do Hungarians - their vignette costs HUF 2760.- but they take 13-15€. the cheapest (except paying in HUF) is to buy it at slovenian selling offices where they take €12

The cheapest is to buy it on-line;)

Overall incomes from vignettes for vehicles above 3.5 t and 12 t are not enough for maintenance and construction of tolled roads.

and who is talking about vignette income? thats only change...

have you heard about fuel-tax and vehicle tax?
thats about a tenfold income compared to vignettes... :ohno:


Only 33% of the cost of maintenance of railways is paid by state. In Czech Republic and Hungary it's 50%, in Austria it's 70%.

well, this is GOOD NEWS: you only have to raise the track-toll by 50% :lol:


Next year we are going to introduce (hopefully) electronic toll for vehicles above 3.5t and railway toll will decrease (it should be compensated by higher payments from state).

GOOD IDEA! nice commie idea! :lol:

raise the tax for roads to crossfinance the rail...


BTW, three Slovak railway companies have about 35 thousand employees. It would be quite complicated to fire them all.;)

no problem.
in reality they are unemployed peoples "inside the gates of the factory" but their "unemloyment aid" is called salary... :lol:

and who is talking about vignette income? thats only change...

have you heard about fuel-tax and vehicle tax?
thats about a tenfold income compared to vignettes... :ohno:

Railway transporters pay taxes, various payments and they buy fuel (or electricity) as well. Note I'm talking about cargo transporters on both roads and railways. Of course if we would count all incomes from all cars it would be pretty big number. But we must take into account also environmental damages. Not to mention without trucks we would need very few motorways.

well, this is GOOD NEWS: you only have to raise the track-toll by 50% :lol:

OK, but then we have to set road toll to pay road maintenance and construction as well. Considering we have to invest at least some € 1 billion, but rather more a year (we are far from that) into construction of new motorways and expressways and their maintenance to get some decent network in relatively close future and only from money from truck toll the prices would be damn high. Railway would be probably cheaper for every distance above 100-150 km. Which, however, doesn't sound as bad idea.

GOOD IDEA! nice commie idea! :lol:

raise the tax for roads to crossfinance the rail...

We have social-democratic government. At least they claim so.:D Electronic toll for vehicles above 3.5t was planned years before decreasing of railway toll which was introduced last week. There is no direct connection between it.

If it would depend on me there would be no subsidies at all, but in present conditions it's impossible. For example when all neighbouring countries have lower railway toll it's causing problems to our railways. It would be great not to subsidise both railways and roads. But, it would cause big damages to our economy since other countries would be cheaper. Something like that can be done on EU level, but I'm affraid this Union of European Socialistic Republics is unable to even think of it.

no problem.
in reality they are unemployed peoples "inside the gates of the factory" but their "unemloyment aid" is called salary... :lol:

ŽSSK (public transport) is heavily subsidised, but public transport is subsidised anywhere. ŽSSK Cargo is even making profit so you certainly cannot say people there are unemployed. There are at least as "employed" as people working for road transporters. ŽSR (railway maintenance) is subsidised for 33%. Since we cannot afford to cancel railways it's quite fair price. Definitely lower than the cost of unemployment aid for all their employees. Decrease of the track toll will increase amount of support for ŽSR, on the other hand it will cause decrease of the support for ŽSSK and it will allow ŽSSK Cargo to make profit also next year. Due to the crisis it would have big problems with high railway toll.

No matter how one dislikes rail,even the most car dependent USA hauls a large percentage of its cargo on railroads. A country needs rail transport to function. Even car and road building needs railroads...There are things you cant transport on roads efficiently,and this includes people. The cost of moving people via railroad is much lower,then moving them by road vehicles.

No matter how one dislikes rail,even the most car dependent USA hauls a large percentage of its cargo on railroads. A country needs rail transport to function. Even car and road building needs railroads...There are things you cant transport on roads efficiently,and this includes people. The cost of moving people via railroad is much lower,then moving them by road vehicles.

you dont understand even know...

it is not about love and hate... its about thriftiness...

maybe you should examine why the USA rail cargo is profitable and needs no subsidizing...

some causes:
- really huge distances (2 times more as in europe)
- united network with NO borders
- no passanger trains on track

So you think its the way we should be living too,everyone on the roads? Make 10x2 roads in the cities? Pave the countryside?

The European railway network is mostly to busy to have extensive cargo rail.

@ RawLee; it is common in most countries besides the really large cities (like Budapest) that most people who travel with public transportation do not have an everyday option in the car. In other words, even if public transport would collapse immediatly the next day, it wouldn't make much of a difference on the roads in the long term.

It is said that less than 10% of the people who travel with PT in the Netherlands have a serious alternative in a car (for everyday, not just for a few days). Since PT is only 10% of the total in the Netherlands, that effectively means only 1% of the total travel prestation would be added to the roads. Frankly, you wouldn't notice that.

Anyway, we're drifting a bit offtopic here.

Are there completion dates for the M6 / A5 Budapest - Osijek? I know the section is not of high priority since the Bosnian part is by far not completed, but imagine 15 years from now... Bosnia and Croatia entered EU and Schengen, both countries with a massive welfare and tourism increase. The old days that the only massive tourism was in Western Europe are long gone. People from central Europe want to go on vacation along the Dalmatian and Montenegrin coast too...

So you think its the way we should be living too,everyone on the roads? Make 10x2 roads in the cities? Pave the countryside?

1. we were talking about cargo not PT...

2. PT is necessary for those who cant drive or cant afford to drive. but PT is VERY expesive, so the fewer people uses PT the better for budget...

3. PT doesnt mean train. in a small country like hungary intercity PT can be done by buses very efficiently...

4. we need no 2x10 (main) roads in cities only 2x2 or 2x3. but many of our city main roads are 2x1 with no grade separation... thats ridiculous...

5. we dont need to pave the countryside, we only need to increase the paved area by 50% ... (from 0,2% to 0,3% - can you imagine how small fraction is that??)

Are there completion dates for the M6 / A5 Budapest - Osijek? I know the section is not of high priority since the Bosnian part is by far not completed, but imagine 15 years from now... Bosnia and Croatia entered EU and Schengen, both countries with a massive welfare and tourism increase. The old days that the only massive tourism was in Western Europe are long gone. People from central Europe want to go on vacation along the Dalmatian and Montenegrin coast too...

M6 M0-Érd opened (2008 Sept)
M6 Érd-Dunaújváros opened (2006 May)
M6 Dunaújváros-Szekszárd U/C (Opens 2010 April)
M6 Szekszárd-Bóly U/C (Opens 2010 April)
M6 Bóly-border planned until 2013

The Croatian part? Don't know exactly.

The European railway network is mostly to busy to have extensive cargo rail.

@ RawLee; it is common in most countries besides the really large cities (like Budapest) that most people who travel with public transportation do not have an everyday option in the car. In other words, even if public transport would collapse immediatly the next day, it wouldn't make much of a difference on the roads in the long term.

It is said that less than 10% of the people who travel with PT in the Netherlands have a serious alternative in a car (for everyday, not just for a few days). Since PT is only 10% of the total in the Netherlands, that effectively means only 1% of the total travel prestation would be added to the roads. Frankly, you wouldn't notice that.

According to some numbers,minimum 50% of Budapesters use PT...the jams are because of such people who embrace the car and would die without it,who move out from the city,but still work there(or afraid of PT,even if they live next to a metro station). I,personally,would tax the hell out of them. 4EUR daily if they want to come into the city/village/anything by car. I would remake all roads to 2x1 in the settlements,for christ's sake,people live there! Use public transport wherever its possible. It decreases wear and tear on infrastructure,lowers pollution and congestion...spares a lot of money.

An IC train carries about 500 people...every hour on some lines. Load on M30 to Miskolc is about 10000 vehicles daily. Out of this about 6000 are cars.IC trains alone in 12 hours transports that much people,plus I didnt count ordinary trains...at least half the people who travel use PT... so its safe to conclude that "subsidy" is not an appropriate word in a case where close to half the people are involved. I'd call it "redistribution of money",from the rich to the poorer(which is the purpose of taxes and governments BTW). I dont see any money from the military,healthcare,education,shall I say they are subsidized,and hence,stopped? If someone dont like the high taxes on cars and motor vehicles,then dont buy them. You have an alternative...but if you do,then accept the fact that the world dont revolve around you and your car.:ohno:

Rawlee, I said "besides Budapest". Comparing some intercity line with a regional motorway in a rural area is also not really fair.

That 50% number says nothing. It says that 50% of the people in Budapest use public transportation, but it doesn't say how often, nor does it presents the travel prestation.

I always find it funny that rail users want drivers to pay 500% of the actual price, and toll 'em even more, while they scream bloody murder if the subsidize level drops from 70% to 50%.

Railway transporters pay taxes, various payments and they buy fuel (or electricity) as well. Note I'm talking about cargo transporters on both roads and railways. Of course if we would count all incomes from all cars it would be pretty big number. But we must take into account also environmental damages.

what kind of taxes? they pays NO exclusive taxes as road users do:

they pay NO fuel tax, pay NO registration tax, pay NO environment/weight tax, pay NO propety gain tax, pay NO "I ripp of the 7th skin from you" tax, etc...

what kind of taxes do they pay what a road user doesnt?

and how can you take into account the environmental damages?
how do you calculate it?
and do you calculate paralelly the economic advantage of the increased mobility?

Not to mention without trucks we would need very few motorways.

Are you serious? :lol:


OK, but then we have to set road toll to pay road maintentance and construciton as well. Considering we have to invest at least some € 1 billion, but rather more a year (we are far from that) into construction of new motorways and expressways and their maintentance to get some decent network in realtively close future and only from money from truck toll the prices would be damn high. Railway would be probably cheaper for every distance above 100-150 km. Which, however, doesn't sound as bad idea.


you dont understand even now:

road users pay ENORMOUS toll. it is called: fuel tax or fuel duty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax

In the United States, the fuel tax receipts are often dedicated or hypothecated to transportation projects so that the fuel tax is considered by many a user fee.

In other countries (EUROPE!), the fuel tax is a source of general revenue.



We have social-democratic government. At least they claim so.:D Electronic toll for vehicles above 3.5t was planned years before decreasing of railway toll which was introduced last week. There is no direct connection between it.


well, if you tax someone and subsidize another one, IMO its a connection.
if its not direct connection then its INdirect connection... :)


If it would depend on me there would be no subsidies at all, but in present conditions it's impossible. For example when all neighbouring countries have lower railway toll it's causing problems to our railways.

why? do the international rail cargo avoid your country?
well, itt good: fewer income, but more fewer cost on track for budget... :)

It would be great not to subsidise both railways and roads. But, it would cause big damages to our economy since other countries would be cheaper. Something like that can be done on EU level, but I'm affraid this Union of European Socialistic Republics is unable to even think of it.


nope.
without subsidy the rail would be more expensive, the road would be cheaper,the economy would be more competitive and the greeines would be more angry... :lol:

I always find it funny that rail users want drivers to pay 500% of the actual price, and toll 'em even more, while they scream bloody murder if the subsidize level drops from 70% to 50%.

I can only tell you an example why I think its the way should be I said:

There's a street near my home. The locals,when the area was built,protested against completing a road,so that there can be no cross-traffic. Now tell me,why should they be allowed to use their cars,if they dont want others to do so? My intention is,that if they want to work here,or do stuff here,then live here,or if they dont want to live here,then dont make it worse for those who do want to live here. If they still do so,then at least feel it on their wallets that they are bringing discomfort to someone else's life.

Use public transport wherever its possible. It decreases wear and tear on infrastructure,lowers pollution and congestion...spares a lot of money.

you are beyond hope.

emigrate to north korea, thats the place for you... :lol:

@ Rawlee; Hungary is a free country and everyone can drive anywhere he wants, traffic laws permitting. And they pay bigtime for it. If you don't want to live in a bustling city, move to the countryside.

If someone dont like the high taxes on cars and motor vehicles,then dont buy them. You have an alternative...but if you do,then accept the fact that the world dont revolve around you and your car.:ohno:

have you heard about families?

cars are not single seated, most of them are 5 seated...

the price of the heavily taxated car journey is lower! than two passanger ticket for PT on an intercity route...

(not mentioning an inter-VILLAGE tour where you have to take huge detours and change PT vehicles many times)

so in reality those who are poor go by car to spare money...

And they pay bigtime for it.

what does this mean?

If you don't want to live in a bustling city, move to the countryside.

yeah.
his opinion would change very quickly... :lol: :nuts: :lol:

...at least half the people who travel use PT... so its safe to conclude that "subsidy" is not an appropriate word in a case where close to half the people are involved. I'd call it "redistribution of money",from the rich to the poorer(which is the purpose of taxes and governments BTW).

yeah.
the elderly peoples, the kinders, the pupils and the disabled peoples use trains in intercity travel.

(free of charge or very discounted price... :lol:)

Actually Intercity trains are more profitable due to more occasional travellers and 1st class travellers. On commuter trains everybody travels with a discountprogram which is horrible for it's cost-efficiency...

I can only tell you an example why I think its the way should be I said:
There's a street near my home. The locals,when the area was built,protested against completing a road,so that there can be no cross-traffic.

transit roads has NOT to be built on local streets, but on corridors between residential areas with grade separation and noise protection walls...

check the american suburbs:
the residential areas with dead end road network are small islands in the grid of the high capacity expressways...

Actually Intercity trains are more profitable due to more occasional travellers and 1st class travellers. On commuter trains everybody travels with a discountprogram which is horrible for it's cost-efficiency...

in hugary the price of the trains (and buses) are distance proportional...

hence the 200km IC ticket cost 4 times more as a 50km ticket for a commuter...
(not counting the extra price of the seat on IC)

there is no discount for commuters in hungary...

Actually Intercity trains are more profitable due to more occasional travellers and 1st class travellers. On commuter trains everybody travels with a discountprogram which is horrible for it's cost-efficiency...

In Hungary the whole PT would be fully profitable, but the firms (BKV, MÁV) has very poor efficiency.
The money they get would be far enough, but they produce 10 billions of deficit pro year.

M6 M0-Érd opened (2008 Sept)
M6 Érd-Dunaújváros opened (2006 May)
M6 Dunaújváros-Szekszárd U/C (Opens 2010 April)
M6 Szekszárd-Bóly U/C (Opens 2010 April)
M6 Bóly-border planned until 2013

The Croatian part? Don't know exactly.

A5 Sredanci (A3) - Đakovo opened (november 2007)
A5 Đakovo - Osijek U/C (opening april 2009)
A5 Svilaj (BIH border) - Sredanci planned till 2013
A5 Osijek - H border planned till 2013

The money they get would be far enough, but they produce 10 billions of deficit pro year.

you mean: 100billions...(in HUF)

this is quite a huge amount of money and it would be very effectively used on the development of the road network...

you mean: 100billions...(in HUF)

this is quite a huge amount of money and it would be very effectively used on the development of the road network...

No, "only" a 50-60 billion HUF the deficit. Not the subsidy.

The amount of subsidy would be OK (the form not), with normal BKV and MÁV.
The PT could be a good alternative for intercity and commuting.
A good transport network can decrease the capacity demand of roads, and this could be cheaper than build an urban higway-network.

And the "everything for the economy" or "everything for the ecology" points are a huge bullshit. We have to find the balance between economy and ecology and we have to balance with tax and subsidy.

A5 Sredanci (A3) - Đakovo opened (november 2007)
A5 Đakovo - Osijek U/C (opening april 2009)
A5 Svilaj (BIH border) - Sredanci planned till 2013
A5 Osijek - H border planned till 2013

Thanks a lot. That part south of the A3 is only like a few kilometers until the BIH border. Osijek is now the largest Croatian city not connected to any motorway network.

And the "everything for the economy" or "everything for the ecology" points are a huge bullshit. We have to find the balance between economy and ecology and we have to balance with tax and subsidy.

I agree. It's often put like roads and public transport (especially rail) should compete with eachother. I'd rather say they complement eachother. Public transportation stands no chance in rural and suburban area's, and taking the train cq subway when you want to visit downtown is a very good choice, you don't need to find a parking space, handle busy traffic etc. Park+Ride is also a good idea, but not practical for everyone.

Thanks a lot. That part south of the A3 is only like a few kilometers until the BIH border. Osijek is now the largest Croatian city not connected to any motorway network.


yes, according to plans it should be 3 km long. i'm wondering about bosnian part because there are no some larg roads at the other side of the river, so they should build at least some connectiong road. and there should be built completely new bridge, too. but anyway, there are 2 border crossings nearby, in Slavonski Brod and in Slavonski Šamac, so entering BIH is nothard, but without new border crossing not that comfortable as it should be.

and yes, Osijek is the largest city without direct connection to motorway network (it is 4th largest city in HR).

Ok,one last time,I bring up numbers,because you seem to be talking out of your ass. Last year,all tax incomes in settlements were 505 billion HUF(including local industrial tax!!!),car registration tax was 22 billion HUF...Even if I include various value-taxes,it wont give you thousands of billions.

This wont even be enough to maintain the infrastructure,let alone expand it the pace it is currently done,so please,until you bring up facts, keep quiet regarding "redistribution of money",ok?

(source:http://www1.pm.gov.hu/

And please,leave your beloved "fuel tax" at home,its paid by the oil companies,not you. The country is built from the money companies are paying,Audi and MOL pays more tax than a million people here...

Guess where those oil companies get that fuel tax money from :|

Vignette and Registration fees are not the main source of income, it are the fuel taxes! They are by far the highest in absolute numbers. In Europe, generally 50 - 60% of the fuel prices are taxes! This is no different in Hungary, or do you have petrol sold at € 0,50? :|

^^In the end,all taxes are paid by the people,so either include the tax on iron ore and coal in the cost of the ticket for the train,or skip them all. Besides,I really doubt its that 3 million cars that generate the bulk of that tax,and not the trucks(including many foreign,and we skipped the immense consumption of airplanes and diesel locomotives),who traverse the country. If maybe accidentally its the truckers who pay the bulk of that tax,then there's really no point in speaking against "subsidizing" rail,and in general private,transport,because its not "our money" from which these are subsidized.

what kind of taxes? they pays NO exclusive taxes as road users do:

they pay NO fuel tax, pay NO registration tax, pay NO environment/weight tax, pay NO propety gain tax, pay NO "I ripp of the 7th skin from you" tax, etc...

what kind of taxes do they pay what a road user doesnt?

I'm not sure about Hungary, but in Slovakia railway transporters pay all those taxes mentioned by you (or similar ones), maybe except that "rip off" one.:)

and how can you take into account the environmental damages?
how do you calculate it?
and do you calculate paralelly the economic advantage of the increased mobility?

I cannot calculate it, but I'm sure if I compare damages by trucks and trains transporting the same amount of cargo then railway damages are much lower. Of course often it's necessary to use roads.

Are you serious? :lol:

Trucks are one of the main reasons why we have to built motorways.

you dont understand even now:

road users pay ENORMOUS toll. it is called: fuel tax or fuel duty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax

In the United States, the fuel tax receipts are often dedicated or hypothecated to transportation projects so that the fuel tax is considered by many a user fee.

In other countries (EUROPE!), the fuel tax is a source of general revenue.

We are still talking about cargo transporters, right? As I've said, all tax and toll incomes from trucks are not enough for road maintenance and construction of new roads. If you count all incomes from all petroleum products sales tax then you get pretty high number (in Slovakia it was € 1.12 billion in 2007), but this is by far not paid by road cargo transporters only.

Of course I agree incomes from fuel tax paid by road users should be used to develop road infrastructure and for ecological purposes.


well, if you tax someone and subsidize another one, IMO its a connection.
if its not direct connection then its INdirect connection... :)

What's wrong with tolling roads for vehicles above 3.5t? Last year incomes from all vignettes (not only for trucks) were ridiculous € 74.98 million. In 2009 official expect incomes € 181 million only from vehicles above 3.5 t thanks to the toll. Still it's nothing if I compare it e.g. to 9 km long motorway in Považská Bystrica which costs € 300 million.

There is not even indirect connection. Higher subsidies for railways won't affect budget for roads.

why? do the international rail cargo avoid your country?
well, itt good: fewer income, but more fewer cost on track for budget... :)

Railways must be maintained anyway. There are numerous factories which cannot exist without railways. Public transport is also unimaginable without railways. So the more trains using them the better.

nope.
without subsidy the rail would be more expensive, the road would be cheaper,the economy would be more competitive and the greeines would be more angry... :lol:

I have to correct myself a bit. IMO it's not possible to say roads or railways would be cheaper or more expansive than each other in general. It varies due to many reasons.

Cool!!

I'm not sure about Hungary, but in Slovakia railway transporters pay all those taxes mentioned by you (or similar ones), maybe except that "rip off" one.:)

certainly... maybe you are sure that the strok brings the baby... :lol:

Trucks are one of the main reasons why we have to built motorways.

yeah. 60-80% of the traffic is car but we build motorways for trucks...
I dont debate faith... :lol:


We are still talking about cargo transporters, right? As I've said, all tax and toll incomes from trucks are not enough for road maintenance and construction of new roads. If you count all incomes from all petroleum products sales tax then you get pretty high number (in Slovakia it was € 1.12 billion in 2007), but this is by far not paid by road cargo transporters only.


I dont understand why do you want to make tucks pay the price of roads?
why dont you want to make blond drivers pay for it? or red cars? maybe cars with odd licence plates?


Of course I agree incomes from fuel tax paid by road users should be used to develop road infrastructure and for ecological purposes.

at least we agree in this issue... :lol:

What's wrong with tolling roads for vehicles above 3.5t? Last year incomes from all vignettes (not only for trucks) were ridiculous € 74.98 million. In 2009 official expect incomes € 181 million only from vehicles above 3.5 t thanks to the toll.

Nothing. Except it raises prises... (or do you like high prices?)
and if you want to tax hauling then you should tax rail cargo too... (and not subsidize it... :bash:)


Still it's nothing if I compare it e.g. to 9 km long motorway in Považská Bystrica which costs € 300 million.


wow. thats fucking expensive... :nuts:



There is not even indirect connection. Higher subsidies for railways won't affect budget for roads.


nope.
budget is not infinite, so there is an indirect connection... :)


Railways must be maintained anyway. There are numerous factories which cannot exist without railways.

I dindt say: stop maintaining.
I did say: make rail users pay the price of the maintaining... :)


Public transport is also unimaginable without railways. So the more trains using them the better.

nope. have you heard about buses? :)

I have to correct myself a bit. IMO it's not possible to say roads or railways would be cheaper or more expansive than each other in general. It varies due to many reasons.

yeah thas right.
bulk goods (ore, coal, grain) on large distances can be hauled cheaper by trains...

car registration tax was 22 billion HUF...Even if I include various value-taxes,it wont give you thousands of billions.


nope.
car registration tax is at least 100-150billion...
heres the tax table: http://totalcar.hu/tanacsok/totalvam/041025a/



This wont even be enough to maintain the infrastructure,let alone expand it the pace it is currently done,so please,until you bring up facts, keep quiet regarding "redistribution of money",ok?


facts? here you are:
yearly fuel consumption of cars: 3,5billion liters
fuel tax: 110Ft/liter (average)
it makes 385mrd fuel tax revenue...



And please,leave your beloved "fuel tax" at home,its paid by the oil companies,not you. The country is built from the money companies are paying,Audi and MOL pays more tax than a million people here...

yeah, you are right.

people PAY NOTHING b/c they get the money from the companies and the state, so EVERYTHING is paid by companies and the state... :lol:

LOL: :lol: I quoted the finance ministry,and you counter with a lousy article,in which there's not a single mention of "100 billion"...

This july,~14000 cars were sold. For an 1401ccm car,worse than category 5,its 378 000 HUF. Thats 5 billion in that month. Even if you multiply it with 12,its only 60 billion,and much of the cars are not 1400ccm...

And again,that 3,5 billion litres include trains and airplanes too,which burn much more fuel than your tiny car. The real consumers are truck,for whom it doesnt really matter if its ordinary road or motorway,as they cant really go faster than 90 anyway.

And as I said,we can include fuel tax in the conversation,but then include all the other taxes too that are paid by us indirectly like VAT. And,of course, include that fuel tax in every other services we mention in the conversation.

Oh,and BTW!the toll railway companies pay for the tracks:
http://www.vpe.hu/takt/phd_lista.php

MÁV
közlekedtetés
személy
Helyi személyszállító vonat
I.
578
ft/vkm

MÁV pays for an ordinary train 578HUF/km...how much you pay if you go to Nyíregyháza/km?

And this doesnt include overhead wire usage,station usage, and capacity reservation.

MÁV pays for an ordinary train 578HUF/km...how much you pay if you go to Nyíregyháza/km?

And this doesnt include overhead wire usage,station usage, and capacity reservation.

about 9Ft/km in fuel tax.
the other taxes and tolls are fix costs so your milage determines the "pro km" cost...

but what does it matter?

the matter is: how do the revenues relate to the expenditures...

Qwert said: the revenue from the track toll is only the 50% of the cost of the track maintaining (in hungary).
so it should be doubled to be equal... :)

Well,motorway maintenance isnt going to happen from toll,is it? So currently,its the roads that are more heavily subsidized. At least,track usage pays half the maintenance.

If you include the fuel tax,then include the fuel tax for trains too(and dont forget to theoretically replace electric locos with diesel ones,as it would be a bit unfair to compare something that isnt using gas to something that does).

You are clearly biased,and as such,cant accept if you're wrong,like in this case.

This july,~14000 cars were sold. For an 1401ccm car,worse than category 5,its 378 000 HUF. Thats 5 billion in that month. Even if you multiply it with 12,its only 60 billion,and much of the cars are not 1400ccm...

but there are cars with larger engines and trucks too... :)

so calculating with an 1600cm3 average is a good estimate...

can we agree in a 100billion estimate? :)


And again,that 3,5 billion litres include trains and airplanes too,which burn much more fuel than your tiny car.

nope, their consumption is above this. (the national consumption is about 5billion liters)

but - maybe you dont know - agricultural machines, trains, ships and airplanes dont have to pay fuel tax... :ohno:


The real consumers are truck,for whom it doesnt really matter if its ordinary road or motorway,as they cant really go faster than 90 anyway.


and what do you want to say with that?

I dont think we should pay extra toll for motorways...
why?
ordinary roads cost money too...
and motorways are for large capacity and safety... so it is better and cheaper to build a 2x2 motorway for up to 80.000 (AADT) than 3, 5 or 8 paralell main roads... :)


And as I said,we can include fuel tax in the conversation,but then include all the other taxes too that are paid by us indirectly like VAT. And,of course, include that fuel tax in every other services we mention in the conversation.

nope.
VAT is not specific tax, its a general tax on almost every goods and services.
it is apropriate that it is part of the general revenue of the budget...

Well,motorway maintenance isnt going to happen from toll,is it? So currently,its the roads that are more heavily subsidized. At least,track usage pays half the maintenance.

the toll (vignette) revenue is about 50-60 billion HUF in hungary.
I dont know where this money goes to... anyway I dont think it all goes to the maintenance of motorways... (it would be 50million/km it seems to be to much)
but I have to admit: the quality of the maintenance is quite prima primissima... :)

the "other roads" (30.000km national road) are maintained from a 25billion budget...
thats ridiculous low, and the result is well-known: they are in extremely bad state...


If you include the fuel tax,then include the fuel tax for trains too(and dont forget to theoretically replace electric locos with diesel ones,as it would be a bit unfair to compare something that isnt using gas to something that does).


as i said: theres NO fuel tax for trains. (nor for diesel, neither for electric trains)

Yeah,MOL(a private company BTW),sells them fuel for free:lol:

Registration tax for trucks:they dont have to pay:D

Vonatkozik-e a regisztrációs adó az importált teherautóra? Nem vonatkozik, ugyanis személygépkocsikra rótta ki a regisztrációs adót a 2003. évi CX.törvény

http://www.magyarorszag.hu/ugyfelvonal/archivum/valasz_070704_134.shtml


Please,stop this stupid argument,all your points are false,and you talk out of your ass...

the "other roads" (30.000km national road) are maintained from a 25billion budget...
thats ridiculous low, and the result is well-known: they are in extremely bad state...

Because drivers dont pay a fillér for them,they are completely free,unlike even secondary lines for trains...just get over it,car owners dont pay nearly enough to maintain the infrastructure,even if we include trucks:D

Yeah,MOL(a private company BTW),sells them fuel for free:lol:


nope.
MOL sells it on full price (with fuel tax)

but the subsidized vehicles can claim back the fuel tax from the APEH... :)

Please,stop this stupid argument,all your points are false,and you talk out of your ass...

is this your ultimate argument? :lol:

Because drivers dont pay a fillér for them,they are completely free,unlike even secondary lines for trains...just get over it,car owners dont pay nearly enough to maintain the infrastructure,even if we include trucks:D

why do I feel as if I am talking to a wall? :lol:

one last attempt:

FUEL TAX = USER FEE

is it clear?

Fuel tax =/= user fee,because you dont have to pay it after electric vehicles. Your logic is based of false assumptions. Fee paid after travelling on all kind of roads per km would be a fee. Fuel tax is a tax on carbohydrates. It is present on all kind of minerals,though called differently.

So far,I'm the only one who backed up my statements with credible,official sources. You just keep pushing popular stereotypes.

Fuel tax =/= user fee,because you dont have to pay it after electric vehicles.

in this case the train ticket is NOT a USER FEE cause people under 6 and above 70 do not pay for tickets... :lol:

anyway the problem is real:
what will the goverments do when the electric cars will be common?
how will they tax their electric energy consumption?



Your logic is based of false assumptions. Fee paid after travelling on all kind of roads per km would be a fee.

nope.
FEE can be paid in fuel (and this is the most effective tolling method, cause it is easily collectable but hardly aviodable, and proportional with the distance.)


Fuel tax is a tax on carbohydrates. It is present on all kind of minerals,though called differently.

nope.
fuel tax is only on the fuels for road vehicles...
theres no fuel tax for other vehicles, and theres no electricity tax for electric vehicles, and no "carbohydrate tax" for powerplants, factories and for the people in hungary...

So far,I'm the only one who backed up my statements with credible,official sources. You just keep pushing popular stereotypes.

maybe you should get off from writeONLY mode and read the following link: :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax

I don't think you guys can get to an agreement ;)

I must say it's a difficult topic to discuss. Road taxes, rail fees, rail subsidies, road subsidies etc. are extremely non-transparent. There are direct subsidies, infrastructural subsidies, stimulation packages etc.

^^ nor do I... :)

yeah you are right: the main problem is the (non)transparency...

and without transparent revenues and expenditures many people (mainly rain fans) think the roads are heavily subsidized... :ohno:

and how could we argue about this topic without the undebated official basic information?


anyway I think this argument wasnt useless for me, cause I learnt some new information... :lol:

I don't think you guys can get to an agreement ;)

I must say it's a difficult topic to discuss. Road taxes, rail fees, rail subsidies, road subsidies etc. are extremely non-transparent. There are direct subsidies, infrastructural subsidies, stimulation packages etc.

I agree. And the most hard-core drivers will always think their taxes run the country,and everything else is paid by them.

^^ you dont need to be a hardcore driver to think this, only be informed about the economy... :lol:

how many tax do you think a citizen having no car pays?

overwhelming percent of taxes are paid by car owners because overwhelming majority of people who has no car has NO, or has little salary hence pays no tax...

just think about it, its really simple... :lol:

The car industry is the engine of the world economy!

NO CAR = NO INDUSTRY = NO WELFARE

or can you say a counterexample? :lol:

That's true, the mobility of the workforce is extremely important, especially on the countryside. When there's limited or no mobility, people never see an increase of welfare. That's why rural areas are nearly always the poorest parts of any country. If you can only work in your own village, that probably would be agriculture. Countries with a great deal of employment in the agricultural sector are nearly always the poorer countries.

No offense, but you guys sound like you prefer the whole world to be auto dependent as the US.

nope.

not we, but the WHOLE WORLD is auto dependent...

not necessarily direct way (car fetishism), but indirect way... (welfare fetishism...) :)

martial PT fans badly need the car fans:

without the enormous tax paid by the latter ones the expensive toy of the former ones can't be bought... :lol:

auto dependency will only cease, when the overwhelming majority of the worlds population will become a buddhist monk... :lol:

No offense, but you guys sound like you prefer the whole world to be auto dependent as the US.
......maybe not entirely but some way yes.

......maybe not entirely but some way yes.
....still, I´m very impressed of those TGV trains and Maglev too. Though this is an other story.:cheers:

I don't mind a country being car-dependent once there are electrical cars that do not pollute. But it must be in balance, it's rediculous everybody has to take the car for 2 - 3km drives. Those are excellent cycling distances for small groceries, social visits etc.

With all the money brought in by drivers, the (local) government can easily construct things to make the car less prominent in cities, like underground parking garages, depressed freeways/expressways etc. Though they wish to spend the money otherwise.

^^ you dont need to be a hardcore driver to think this, only be informed about the economy... :lol:

how many tax do you think a citizen having no car pays?

overwhelming percent of taxes are paid by car owners because overwhelming majority of people who has no car has NO, or has little salary hence pays no tax...

just think about it, its really simple... :lol:

The car industry is the engine of the world economy!

NO CAR = NO INDUSTRY = NO WELFARE

or can you say a counterexample? :lol:


:lol:You are pathetic. I showed you many proofs that car owners barely pay enough to maintain the infrastructure needed for the fuel-driven vehicles,yet you insist on that I'm wrong. The country is run by the taxes of the factories,of which even in the most car-dependent countries auto-industries only produce a few % of the income. Just read the recent "collapse of the US auto industry would result in 1% drop in GDP" titled articles.

The engine of the world is telecommunication and electronic industry. (hint:almost everyone has a mobile phone,but a car is still rare in the world per capita). The age of the car in this part of the world was over before it started.

But before claiming again that I'm a railfan or something here,I've posted more pics of roads in this country than probably anybody else. So currently,I think I can safely claim that I'm the least biased from the 2 of us.

^^ you showed not proof only your dark in this topic... :lol:

(hint:almost everyone has a mobile phone,but a car is still rare in the world per capita)

really?
and how many average mophone can you buy on the price of an average car?
100? 200?

what are you talking about? :lol:

BTW: dont you think the match industry is even more significant?
(hint: there are MUCH MORE matches per capita as mophones per capita... :lol:)

I personally find the idea of being forced to drive to do anything undemocratic.

^^ I think you mistake the compulsion for the deficit of possibilities... :)

if you dont want to drive but want to work, shop, and disport near your home than move to a downtown of a large city... it's up to you...

^^ you showed not proof only your dark in this topic... :lol:

(hint:almost everyone has a mobile phone,but a car is still rare in the world per capita)

really?
and how many average mophone can you buy on the price of an average car?
100? 200?

what are you talking about? :lol:

BTW: dont you think the match industry is even more significant?
(hint: there are MUCH MORE matches per capita as mophones per capita... :lol:)

So I am dark because I dont take your word granted,or I dont believe you without doubt? Yes,I am dark,because I actually looked after the topic,and you arent,because you even quoted articles that back my point(even Wiki proves me,as it says "considered a user fee",not "it is a user fee")...:nuts:
Everyone who reads our discussion will think I'm right,because I provided sources that support my claim,while,as I already said,you just said what was on your mind. You can try to ridicule me,but it doesnt matter what you think,I have the higher ground,until you actually can support your claims.

M6-M9 junction,pic posted by Aladar:

http://kep.ivpicture.hu/33578.N.jpg

M6-M9 junction,pic posted by Aladar:

http://kep.ivpicture.hu/33578.N.jpg

Cloverleaf with collector lanes at its best! Really nice photo...

M6-M9 junction,pic posted by Aladar:

waste of money... :ohno:

giganto-saurus IC for an AADT of 5,000...

we should build the M4 instead of that where the traffic is over 20,000...

Or complete Budpaest Ring Road !

In 30 years, you'll be happy they've decided to construct a fullsize cloverleaf ;)

In 30 years, you'll be happy they've decided to construct a fullsize cloverleaf ;)

we have TOO many more important things to do...

and cloverleaves w/o CD lanes can be upgraded easily later when traffic volumes recquires it...

maybe a half cloverleaf would be enough: M9 is a normal main road with roundabouts and VERY low traffic...

Or complete Budpaest Ring Road !

yeah, that is really an important task... :)

to draw out an AADT of 20-30,000 from a congested metropolis is MUCH MORE important than to build a full profile motorway for an AADT of 5,000 where the parallel main road is even not congested...

Site with some useful pieces of information on Budapest Ring Road and lots of other road procjects :cheers:

road-traffic technology (http://www.roadtraffic-technology.com/projects/moringroad/)

In 30 years, you'll be happy they've decided to construct a fullsize cloverleaf ;)
....Make it 15 years.

Site with some useful pieces of information on Budapest Ring Road and lots of other road procjects :cheers:
road-traffic technology (http://www.roadtraffic-technology.com/projects/moringroad/)

this is a bullshit... full of mistakes, deceit and falsehood...


According to independent experts it is not necessary to construct the northern part of the M0 as its effect on traffic pattern changes will not be substantial.

yeah... drawing AADT of 20-30,000 out of the city is not substantial... :ohno:

maybe these experts are not only independent but selp-appointed too... :lol:


The southern section of the M0 has already stimulated the development of over 50,000m² of new car-dependent shopping centres, with a further 80,000m² planned. This has created a much more serious traffic problem than the ringroad was supposed to solve. For these reasons, the economic importance of the northern and western sections of the M0 is marginal. The primary beneficiary of the completion of the northern section will be land speculators in the north of Budapest.


yeah.
in hungary people spend their days shuttling between "car-dependent shopping centres"...

so besides of credit we are in heavy need of nice roads to do this hobbi... :lol:

^^I don't preoccupy myself with some biased opinions in the article. I just care whether the given data is correct.

The question is whether those shopping centers wouldn't have been build if the M0 wasn't constructed. I highly doubt that.

Same factor for population growth and suburbs. People blame freeways for it, but other examples show those developments take place anyway. If we take a look at Los Angeles, we see the freeway system expansion stopped mostly after the 1980's, but the huge increase in population and development didn't stop.

^^I don't preoccupy myself with some biased opinions in the article. I just care whether the given data is correct.

there are some wrong data:

Start year: 1998 / M0 south: 1986, M0east: 2004/2006

M0 eastern section HUF43bn ($205m) / between M4-M3: HUF 54bn, full eastern sector (M5-M3) + M31 : HUF 110bn


The 150km M0 motorway is a ringroad around the country's capital Budapest. / 108km

The 150km M0 motorway is a ringroad around the country's capital Budapest. / 108km
Yup, 150 km seemed way too long for me (almost the length of Berliner Ring, WTF) but I never bothered to measure it myself :D

Anyway, thanks for the info.

M0 north(main road 10 and 11) got the environmental approval for the "A1" variant!!!

http://www.nif.hu/hirek/170

A mai napon az Országos Környezetvédelmi, Természetvédelmi és Vízügyi Főfelügyelőség kiadta a környezetvédelmi engedélyt a Nemzeti Infrastruktúra Fejlesztő Zrt. részére az M0 útgyűrű 11. sz. főút-10. sz. főút közötti szakasz ún. ’A1’ nyomvonal változatának létesítésére.

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/4289/m01110aa164954316509328kq9.jpg
(from roads.extra.hu)

http://roads.extra.hu/road_plans/m0_11_10_a_a1_egyben.jpg

^^ Not a big difference between these two variants.

^^ both variants are waste of money... :bash:

this section would be built with much less tunnel...
(say 1-1,5km instead of 5km)

^^ yeah, but Óbuda, Budakalász and Üröm wouldn't have agreed then... Kőröshegy-effect :ohno:

Well, better an expensive much-needed road than no road at all, I say.

I do agree though that the influence of green parties and NIMBY's is too big often. Delays and increasing costs are also not in the interest of an economy.

A problem one observes often is that in the vicinity of natural parks (wannabies), the whole area gets build with houses and nobody complains about that, but when there's no space left for appropriate infrastructure, it's a problem all the sudden.

In this case,settlements are close to the planned route,some places even as close as 200m(between Pilisborosjenő and Üröm) or 150m at Budakalász.

Besides,the area is hilly too,and again,though I know its not a reason for some people,cuts would have bad effect on the view,environment(as built-up) and nature.

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/391/p11504991vm5.jpg
(pic of Qtya)

If the real point is to get the vehicles through at all cost,then why not transform a few roads in the city into a motorway,it would be much cheaper...the real goal is to get the vehicles out of the settlements(lower pollution),and in the process,we shoudlnt bring our problem to an other neighbourhood(ventilation of tunnels make the area-pollution of vehicles into a point-pollution at exhaust/exit points).

In this case,settlements are close to the planned route,some places even as close as 200m(between Pilisborosjenő and Üröm) or 150m at Budakalász.


as between ecser and maglód, or pécel and rákoscsaba, or csömör and árpádföld along the M0 east...

the solution: noise barriers...


Besides,the area is hilly too,and again,though I know its not a reason for some people,cuts would have bad effect on the view,environment(as built-up) and nature.

nope.
I dont talk cuts instead of tunnels but an alternate route wheres no need for long tunnels nor cuts...


If the real point is to get the vehicles through at all cost,then why not transform a few roads in the city into a motorway,it would be much cheaper...


... or much more expensive...

nope.
I dont talk cuts instead of tunnels but an alternate route wheres no need for long tunnels nor cuts...

This is the least hilly part of the mountain

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/4879/budajl7.jpg

And making it into a rollercoaster instead of a horizontal road will only result in higher fuel usage of vehicles,especially trucks.

This is the least hilly part of the mountain...

thanx, I know the terrain... :lol:



And making it into a rollercoaster instead of a horizontal road will only result in higher fuel usage of vehicles,especially trucks.

and how much is the increase? (on a few km section) 1%? :lol:
(we are talking about 4% slopes not high alpine serpentines :))


but in this case theres no "rollercoaster" only a small change in the alignment:

check the red route: there are much shorter tunnels...

http://roads.extra.hu/road_plans/m0_11_10_valtozatok_legifoto.jpg

And the red route obviously need the demolition of many houses...would you sacrifice your own house for the cause,or you're only doing it so easily with other's?

From MR11 to Üröm/Budakalász I think the orange tunnel isn't a bad choice. The second tunnel could be the shortest.

That combination could save about 1000 m of tunnel.

From MR11 to Üröm/Budakalász I think the orange tunnel isn't a bad choice. The second tunnel could be the shortest.

That combination could save about 1000 m of tunnel.

The orange version is A1...A1 is the orange in the beginning,and then the green.

http://roads.extra.hu/road_plans/m0_11_10_a_a1_egyben.jpg

http://roads.extra.hu/road_plans/m0_11_10_valtozatok_legifoto.jpg

I mean the orange(A1 or 3.1 - depends on map) - red (1) would be the best combination.

Ok, I passed through Hungary on my trip from Bulgaria back to Germany and I must say that Hungary has the best motorways of all these countries by far. They are very smooth, very soft and very even! Hungary really deserves the title motorway for their motorways because they are really very impressive. Especially the new M5 from Serbian border, it´s very even and you forget you drive, you only hear the engine of the car and that´s it. The only motorway I know that is as good is the Struma motorway in Bulgaria, that´s the way to go.

Not to forget that when you drive in Hungary at night you can always tune in a technochannel and it stays for the whole country, omg, in Germany and in Austria you have only shit channels with lots of German Nena shit that stay for long, in Hungary you have Juventus and various channels that play Technosets, even in Serbia there are Technochannels with great music.

^^ Thanks Radi, glad you enjoyed driving on Hungarian motorways! :cheers:

Is Radi going to switch his Struma obsession to a M5 obsession? :D

...well,then it´s good that M5 is not the most expensive motorway in Europe anymore.:banana::banana::banana:
as you noticed it´s turned into the national "vignette" system.

its a good job he didnt drive on the concrete section of the M0 :lol: with all the noise it produces, its not smooth at all

its a good job he didnt drive on the concrete section of the M0 :lol: with all the noise it produces, its not smooth at all

But it wont get bad in 50 years! and the southern half of M0 will be concrete too.

i realize that

Planning of western M0 has been ordered!

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=30668974&postcount=2616

The planning phase will end by 2010 november 30. It will be 2x2+e,with design speed of 90.

^^You mean the whole section from Üröm to Biatorbágy?

Design speed of 90? What is this, 1930?

The ringroad of Amsterdam also has some 80 km/h sections. It is supposed to improve the traffic flow and reduce the amount of jams. Over here it didn't really work out though :lol:

^^ There's a difference between design speed and speed limit. Dutch motorways are designed for 140 km/h, while the speed limit is 120 km/h. German Autobahns have a similar design speed, and have a 999 km/h speed limit.

^^

how many mountains are there around amsterdam? :nuts:


i think the speed limit will be 80 in tunnels (almost half of the section), and between 80-110 on other sections
now, that wont stop hungarians _like myself_ from pushing the throttle to well above 130 like on the eastern section which is also theoretically only 110 but the inside lane is going much faster all the time (that is, until the safety-nazis put some cameras up :bash: )

Yes,all the way from main road 11 to M1.

I think the design speed here is 90 because this way there wont be narrow points because of trucks. You wont be able to go much faster anyway...and maybe they want to discourage through traffic to M3...maybe this will mean higher capacity too(because you will need a smaller following distance)...

Well, 110 is okay, but 90 is way too slow for a beltway. If it was in the middle of Budapest, I'd say; okay...

Well, 110 is okay, but 90 is way too slow for a beltway. If it was in the middle of Budapest, I'd say; okay...

give over, theres gonna be an M100 if the capacity requires it in the future

and as i said, half of the way it will go in tunnels anyway, with speed cameras, at 80kph

Yes,all the way from main road 11 to M1.

I think the design speed here is 90 because this way there wont be narrow points because of trucks. You wont be able to go much faster anyway...and maybe they want to discourage through traffic to M3...maybe this will mean higher capacity too(because you will need a smaller following distance)...

LOL since when do hungarian drivers give a s..t about following distance? :lol:

Design speed of 90? What is this, 1930?

Here they have recently revised the proposal for an as yet unbuilt motorway to increase the design speed from 100 to 110 km/h. I don't understand what needs revising on a semi-rural motorway to make it safe to travel at 110 km/h; the three-year-old M7 motorway has been given a speed limit of 100, but for what reason I cannot imagine, as it would be perfectly safe to drive most of it at 140.

Design speed has mostly to do with the alignment of a freeway. Their curves, capacity and ramps. Most NYC parkways/expressways were build with design speeds of the 1930's. I think a great deal of the NYC congestion has to do with the design of their parkways/expresways rather than capacity alone.

LOL since when do hungarian drivers give a s..t about following distance? :lol:

Wether we give or not,you can notice that most people keep longer distance at high speeds.

And I can imagine that 90 was set so that tighter curves could be built.

anyway, im glad this is moving on
i was expecting another 10 years before completion, this is really good news

(now, if they were only building the 2x3+1 M10 and the Aquincum bridge...)

Well, 110 is okay, but 90 is way too slow for a beltway. If it was in the middle of Budapest, I'd say; okay...

This section needs 4-6 km of tunnel(s). These few km will be limited to 80-90 km/h. The other sections could be designed upto 110 km/h.

Usually you can add 30 km/h to design speed to set the speed limit. That means on this section outside tunnels 120 could be allowed, but I think there will be 110 instead which is still good for an expressway in such terrain.

Design speed of 90? What is this, 1930?Looking at financial crisis, it's exactly 1930. :lol:

give over, theres gonna be an M100 if the capacity requires it in the futureM100? Where?

M100? Where?

Here:
http://roads.extra.hu/road_plans/m100_esztergom_oh_bicske.jpg

Will it be kind of Budapest outer bypass?

Will it be kind of Budapest outer bypass?

It will basically be the rerouting of M6 to the north.

http://roads.extra.hu/road_plans/mo_gyf_2034_fomterv.jpg

So the M15 is already planned to become a motorway. As well as western part of M9; that will be the fastest way between Bratislava and Zagreb. Could someone please translate the legend?

So the M15 is already planned to become a motorway. As well as western part of M9; that will be the fastest way between Bratislava and Zagreb. Could someone please translate the legend?

motorway
expressway
"primary" main roads(I cant really say a better word for it,but this concept already exists in the form of single-digit main roads,literal translation would be meaningless "elevated,accentuated,raised",so this is like above primary and secondary main roads,but below expressway)
main road - existing
main road - planned

So the M15 is already planned to become a motorway. As well as western part of M9; that will be the fastest way between Bratislava and Zagreb. Could someone please translate the legend?

dont hold your hopes up, unfortunately these maps they produce are quite unreliable

for example M44 is shown here as an 'autoroute/expressway' but they are building the first section as a full-blown highway 2x(2+1)

furthermore, M4 is shown there as highway but the section near budapest will start out as main road upgraded to 2x2 without service lane

unfortunately, the same can be said about the M86 :bash:


they are "saving" money by spending "only" 80-90 % of the cost of a highway -- and we end up with no emergency lanes and lower speed, lower capacity :bash:

So the M15 is already planned to become a motorway. As well as western part of M9; that will be the fastest way between Bratislava and Zagreb. Could someone please translate the legend?

I would appreciate faster construction of E65 (M15, M86 and M9) a lot since Slovak (also know as Adriatic) sea needs better access to its capital.:D But, seriously, at least M15 should be upgraded soon. I guess, it's one of the busiest 2x1 expressways in Hungary.

"primary" main roads(I cant really say a better word for it,but this concept already exists in the form of single-digit main roads,literal translation would be meaningless "elevated,accentuated,raised",so this is like above primary and secondary main roads,but below expressway)

Maybe something like superior?:)

Here:
http://roads.extra.hu/road_plans/m100_esztergom_oh_bicske.jpg

I must say, this link http://roads.extra.hu/road_plans/gyorsforgalmi.html
is very very nice. A lot of maps and plans. Thank you.