Cebuano Language - Compiled Threads

[dodong]

kung madayon charter change (resolution no. 10 ni sen. pimentel), cebuano or bisaya should be one of the official languages of the "State of Central Visayas".

[habagatcentral1]

To the mods, I suggest that the title should be renamed "Cebuano/Bisaya" language thread since Waray-Waray and Hiligaynon are also considered Visayan languages by the academe.

"Bisaya" is a more general term used in referring to Cebuano, Boholano and the Visayan langauges in Mindanao which is heavily influenced by the Cebuano or Boholano in some areas.

[dodong]

^^Bai Berns, I think there is no need to change the title to "Cebuano/Bisaya" language thread since it will just make Cebuano synonymous with Bisaya and some (Bisaya-speaking) people from Mindanao don't consider their language as Cebuano. Anyway, the topic is not about Visayan languages.

[habagatcentral1]

^^ But again, the connotation here is that "Bisaya" is NOT ONLY referring to the Cebuano and Bisayan languages that are heavily influenced by Cebuano or Boholano. Some are of their distinct languages such as Waray and Hiligaynon. Hence the Visayan question.

[bukid]

i agree with bern. it is better to just call it cebuano/bisaya than bisaya only because bisaya should include hiligaynon, akeanon, karay-a, bantayanon, waray.

[kiretoce]

The thread title is directly proportional to the number of speakers on SSC-Philippines. There aren't that many Waray, Kinarya-a, etc. speakers, majority are Bisaya (regardless whether they're from the Visayas or Mindanao), thus this thread is primarily for that language. Think about thread activity and usage, Bisaya (based on Cebuano) has more of a chance at being active than the other languages. But if there is clamor for a separate thread and if they can sustain activity and interest, it'll be given a chance to do so.

[kiretoce]

Or....do folks want a "United Visayan Language Thread" encompassing all the regional languages of the Visayan islands (including Mindanao) by merging both the Hiligaynon and Bisaya language threads.

[habagatcentral1]

^^ That I was proposing...to have a United Visayan Languages thread since the Hiligaynon thread hasn't been active unlike before. Also the exchange of ideas and words between the Visayan language is being discussed here.

[bukid]

i'm not in favor of merging all these post under a united bisayan thread. as a person who intend to learn languages. it is easier to separate them under 3 threads.

[habagatcentral1]

^^ But again, we have to be quite sensitive with what the title suggests. After all, some people might see it in a bad light.

[bukid]

^^ yes, that is why i'm in favor of naming it as cebuano language thread and western bisayan language thread instead of bisayan and hiligaynon language thread.

[Wind Shear]

I prefer the title "Cebuano Language Thread", not "Bisaya Language Thread".

Cebuano is part of Visayan languages, Hiligaynon is a part of Visayan languages, Waray-waray is a part of a Visayan languages.

And I don't remember Bisaya as a language. But I remenber that Bisaya is a family of languages.

For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visayan_languages

[Ang_Bantayanon]

You guys are right. I don't also like the name. In Tagalog twang, I sound like one's muchacho here.

I hope the mods would get it.

[habagatcentral1]

I think we should file a petition. :D
It is after all a language that emanates from Central Visayas, Cebuano is at its center.

[technoblaze]

got a question.. what the difference betteen cebuano and bisaya?.

because in the national census there are cebuano, bisaya, waray and hiligaynon ?
1900 . . . . . . . . . . 1995. . . . . . . . . . . . 2000
Tagalog
16,911,871. . . . . . . . . . . . 20,043,476 . . . . . . . . . . . . 21,485,927
Cebuano ???
14,713,220 . . . . . . . . . . . . 14,486,869 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10,030,667
Ilocano
5,923,511. . . . . . . . . . . . 6,370,938 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6,920,760
Bisaya/Binisaya ???
139,198 . . . . . . . . . . . . … . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5,778,435
Hiligaynon/Ilongo
5,656,103 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6,234,075. . . . . . . . . . . . 5,773,135
Bikol/Bicol
3,519,236. . . . . . . . . . . . 3,893,731 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4,583,034
Waray
2,437,688. . . . . . . . . . . . 2,607,226 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,567,558

Other local languages/dialects 10,862,641 13227736 18,526,533

CENSUS.GOV.PH
Philippine in Figures 2008

[Wind Shear]

^^ Can you cite the source of your info so I can cross-ref?

[flesh_is_weak]

nitan-aw ko gahapon balik ug Hero na movie ni Jet Li, and i thought to myself...

what if? naay usa sa mga karaang hari sa pilipinas (katong time na wa pa ta ma-'discover' sa mga katsila) ang naka-huna-huna na iyang sulungon ang tanang isla ug himoon nga usa ka gingharian?

dako tingali kaayo ug kausaban ang mahitabo...

pananglitan, ang atong gitawag nga nasyonalismo karon, bunga ra man sa rebolusyon batok sa mga katsila, apan kung nahiusa pa lang unta ta sa wa pa nahiabot ang mga katsila, naa unta tay tinuod na nasyonalismo karon...

kung nagkahiusa kita niadto pa, dili tingali ta mapukan niadtong mga katsila, ug bisan pa tingali sa unsa pang emperyo nga gikan sa europa niadtong mga panahona...

basin ug nakamugna kita ug mga imbensyon ug sistema sa pilosipiya sama sa mga intsik ug mga hapon...

basin pa unta ug nagkahiusa kita sa usa ka relihiyon--mamahimong islam, buddhismo, o basin usa ka relihiyon nga dinhi namugna sa atoang lugar--ug dili kita magkagubot karon tungod sa lain-laing tinuohan...

basin pa unta na mawala ang mga kalahian sa sinultihan ug kinaiya (i.e. tagalog, bisaya) ug makabaton kita ug usa ka kultura na klarong ato gyud na dili maglahi-lahi sa bisan asa pang lugara sa nasud (ug malipay ko pag-ayo kung kulturang binisaya ang magpaibabaw ug maoy mahimong kultura sa tibuok nasud...hehehe)

wala ra pala nako kung niadtong unang panahon, nahurot ang ubang tribo sa pilipinas ug napapas ang ilang kultura...ang kinabuhi sa nasud maoy angay nga ipalabi

[Mercato]

^^ Aha! Na-a ka ra man di’ay ngari, bai. Amigo lang guihapon ha, basi’g nangluod ka na diha. Unya unsa man nang imong panghinoktok, aver, para probaron nga i-sport lang, Seattle’s Best puhon... :lol:

1900 . . . . . . . . . . 1995. . . . . . . . . . . . 2000
Cebuano ???
14,713,220 . . . . . . . . . . . . 14,486,869 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10,030,667
Bisaya/Binisaya ???
139,198 . . . . . . . . . . . . … . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5,778,435
nakalimot kug tan-aw niini hagbay ra. Apan dili, dili, dili, di ko makatugot nga mikubos ang gidaghanon sa mga Sugbuanon. Dili gayud madawat sa akong pagbati. Nagpataka lang tingali’g ihap nang taga Census guitaspok lang. Ku’wang sa suborno. :ohno:

========================================================
Ok,on a more serious note. Hmmm, thread title change? :)
I hereby propose that the thread be renamed the Mahar-Linggum language thread, the language of Royalty.

[Hajanlet]

Went to census.gov.ph and I haven't managed to find the quoted figures, but they seem to be in line with the population by region. Lots of people in Luzon especially in the tagalog region and NCR so it stands to reason that there would be more Tagalog speakers.

Though I did not find how the entire Philippine population is broken down to different dialects, each region has that information. In NCR, around 0.62% of households speak Bisaya or Binisaya and 3.34% speak other dialects or languages. To put things in perspective, around 0.41% of households speak foreign languages. The other specified dialects/languages were Tagalog, Bicolano, and Illocano. Now, I haven't done much exploring in NCR, but a 0.62% with the chance that part of the 3.34% in other dialects are Bisayan dialects seems to be lower than what one might expect based on just listening to the people here. Go to most work places and it's hard to find some place without a Bisayan so it's a little hard to believe that Bisayans make up such a small percentage of the population.

The problem with commenting on the survey is that we don't know the survey questions and the manner of their asking. A danger with any survey is that either the questions or the one asking the questions could bias the results. Based on the data, there is a real problem with giving different slots for Bisaya and Cebuano. Some expert may be able to define the differences between the two, but a survey question is meant for the persons being surveyed and I am at a loss as to whether I should answer Bisaya or Cebuano. I don't see the reason for splitting them. I'm a full blooded Cebuano tracing my roots to Talisay City for both my maternal grandparents and to Dumanjug and Cebu City for my paternal grandmother and grandfather, respectively; for all that, we never used Cebuano to refer to our language, its Bisaya. The only times that Cebuano is specified as a dialect is on making distinctions to other Bisaya dialects.

=================================================================

On other matters, I am currently looking for a good bisaya dictionary or thesaurus. Had this urge to write Bisaya poetry and wanted a reference for getting the right words. It would seem that all that our bookstores have to offer are dictionaries for people learning Bisaya and I find them too low level to be of any use. Also, the writers of most of these dictionaries don't seem to be studying just how dictionaries are supposed to be written. It's very shoddy when compared to how Webster's dictionary is organized. Is there a dictionary out there written to address a native Bisaya speaker like how English dictionaries are written for English speakers?

In line with my questions, I seem to recall that there is a Cebu history project. Books are written about the history of the different municipalities and for the whole province. What is your take on having a similar project for the Bisaya language? I, for one, would just love the idea of having one made. We could break it down to the language, and its variations in different areas perhaps even extending to other provinces and going into the different cultural influences. Why is l omitted in some areas and retained in others? Why do Cagayanons say tsada/chada instead of nindot? I'm sure there are lots of questions with interesting answers. Things would even be better if the works extended beyond language and into literature.

[habagatcentral1]

By the way, I am aware that this question that I'll be asking is inappropriate in this thread but I hope someone can clarify this....

"Does Tausug or Butuanhon really the "mother tongue" of the Bisayan language?"

[technoblaze]

Went to census.gov.ph and I haven't managed to find the quoted figures, but they seem to be in line with the population by region.

Here's The Link to those Figures...
Philippine in Figures 2008
http://census.gov.ph/data/publications/PIF2008_final.pdf

[Mercato]

^^ akong guitan-aw ang iyang lugar, pulos man bisaya. hmmm, awww sigue na lang cay bisaya man. con dili pa gani bisaya nah, ihawon gyud ko ni'ng mao nga baktin ug himoong humba. :lol:
On other matters, I am currently looking for a good bisaya dictionary or thesaurus. Had this urge to write Bisaya poetry and wanted a reference for getting the right words. It would seem that all that our bookstores have to offer are dictionaries for people learning Bisaya and I find them too low level to be of any use. Also, the writers of most of these dictionaries don't seem to be studying just how dictionaries are supposed to be written. It's very shoddy when compared to how Webster's dictionary is organized. Is there a dictionary out there written to address a native Bisaya speaker like how English dictionaries are written for English speakers?

In line with my questions, I seem to recall that there is a Cebu history project. Books are written about the history of the different municipalities and for the whole province. What is your take on having a similar project for the Bisaya language? I, for one, would just love the idea of having one made. We could break it down to the language, and its variations in different areas perhaps even extending to other provinces and going into the different cultural influences. Why is l omitted in some areas and retained in others? Why do Cagayanons say tsada/chada instead of nindot? I'm sure there are lots of questions with interesting answers. Things would even be better if the works extended beyond language and into literature. Ang maantigo bahin nianing mga butanga si Dr. Erlinda Alburo, sa USC Cebuano Studies. Ang right hand ni Dr. Alburo wala'y lain kun dili ang atong buotan nga higala nga si AngBantayanon. Basi'g maayo tingali nga makighimamat ka kang Ang Bantayanon ka'y daghan ni siya'g nahibaw-an bahin pud niining mga butanga. :) Sa kanhing thread gani nakahinumdom ko nga ana-a'y Forumer nga nagpatik ug link sa usa ka online English Cebuano Dictionary. :cheers:

[Mercato]

By the way, I am aware that this question that I'll be asking is inappropriate in this thread but I hope someone can clarify this....

"Does Tausug or Butuanhon really the "mother tongue" of the Bisayan language?" Naka attend ko kaniadto ug usa ka Muslim wedding kay among higala mi-convert ug naminyo ug usa ka Tausug nga guapa (local princess ba caha to o unsa). Didto ra ba sa wedding maayo ra ba'g mga hitsura ang mga Tausug puera buyag. Con tinu-od na imong theoria, aww di na ko mahibulong kay con matahum ang guinikanan, natural ang mga anak pulos pud guapo ug guapa. Pusyon Bisaya!!!

[Hajanlet]

@technoblaze
Thanks for the file link.

To answer your question:

From the posts here, Cebuano is a subset of Bisaya. Saying Cebuano is different from Bisaya is like saying that Bisaya is different from a human, it's not a good comparison. Bisaya as a different sort of human might be better. Cebuano should only be compared to other subsets of Bisaya like Boholano and others.

[technoblaze]

If Cebuano is A separate subset of Bisaya then if we should furder separate Boholano and Davawenyo ..
the 15Million Strong Cebuano would furder decrease to 7Million in the Census vs Tagalog at 21Million

[Mercato]

^^ :mad2: Cebuano is a part of Bisaya. Since when did Boholano and Davaowenyo achieve its grand independence from basically the same tongue? I can go to Tagbilaran and Davao and people there speak the same language as I.

porbida ni'ing mao nga baktin, di'in man ni siya guikan intawon, oi? Hain na to akong sundang magsugod na kog ba-id. Inasal ba kaha o humba?

[bukid]

^^ they call the mindanaoan bisayan language as bisaya because it also had some tagalog and ilonggo influence which makes it slightly different from sugbuanon. while butuanon bisaya had influence from eastern bisayas which is slightly different from sugbuanon. bantayanon for example is considered different though it is mostly influenced by ilonggo yet it had some sugbuanon and waray too. so that is the reason why they don't want to call the bantayanon language "ilonggo".

[Mercato]

^^ Cay I had been to Davao several years ago and I felt their binisaya is just the same as mine. I guess the same holds true for the tagalog and ilonggo migrants to Davao re their own languages, they still preserved a whole lot of their linguistics intact. But yea, I guess ur right - the melting pot effect will be taking place. Quite interesting how all these differences will work out in the future. :)

[Hajanlet]

I guess there's some problem with how I said some things. A set is a collection of objects. A subset is a collection of objects taken from a set, which may be referred to as a superset. So a set of dialects that is the Bisaya language would hold all dialects like Cebuano, Boholano, etc. I guess that Cebuano or any dialect is an element of the set Bisaya, but Cebuano itself has it's own variations so a subset is a more apt term so that the individual elements would be the different forms of Cebuano; like how the people in Dalaguete talk. Anyway I'm not a linguist so I'm not sure how things are really organized. I just used the terms from set theory, because statistics is based from it and because I'm currently reviewing it for my thesis.

A clear example would be to call the students in a class as a set. Male and Female would be subsets. They are different, but belong to the same class. You cannot call the Male or the Female separate, they just have traits that distinguish one from the other while sharing the common traits of being in the same room, same intructor and same schedule. The terminology is just a generalized way of defining how a large collection is divided into smaller ones.

If we're going to refer to the data from the census, it should be noted that the categorization is not strictly in languages/dialects, but in languages/dialects/ethnicity. It's confusing this way because people with Cebuano ancestry call themselves Cebuano, but their dialect may not be Cebuano. That's part of my curiosity as to the survey questions really. If I were a person living in NCR with Cebuano parents, I could answer that I'm Cebuano without necessarily meaning that I speak Cebuano. Though the people I've met there are more likely to say they're Tagalog even with those conditions so the survey may reflect less than the actual number of Cebuanos in terms of ethnicity. Depending on one's criteria for what a Cebuano is, the number could be significantly more or less than the statistic. My personal standard is that a person should have lived here for a majority of his life before the age of 21. So the number of Cebuanos by my definition would actually be less than the population of Cebu. As far as the statistic is concerned, tt would have been better if Cebuano and Bisaya were lumped into one so there's 15M.

[habagatcentral1]

There is one theory though that in Mindanao, because it is a melting pot of cultures, the tendency of a dominating ethno-linguistic group is to adopt some words from the minority and the marginalized.

For example, the difference between the "Bisaya" of Davao and "Bisaya" of GenSan. They are just a few hours away from each other by bus but their "Bisaya" seem to differ in some ways. The former has a mix of Tagalog, Cebuano, Bol-anon, Hiligaynon, Waray & even Lumadic languages such as Mandaya. The latter on the other hand is more like a mix of Cebuano and Hiligaynon combined, with Cebuano dominating the language due to their number.

Even in Hiligaynon, there are certain varieties of it. Panay-Negros Hiligaynon is quite different from the Hiligaynon spoken in South Cotabato, Cotabato, Sultan Kudarat areas.

[Mercato]

I guess there's some problem with how I said some things. A set is a collection of objects. A subset is a collection of objects taken from a set, which may be referred to as a superset. So a set of dialects that is the Bisaya language would hold all dialects like Cebuano, Boholano, etc. I guess that Cebuano or any dialect is an element of the set Bisaya, but Cebuano itself has it's own variations so a subset is a more apt term so that the individual elements would be the different forms of Cebuano; like how the people in Dalaguete talk. Anyway I'm not a linguist so I'm not sure how things are really organized. I just used the terms from set theory, because statistics is based from it and because I'm currently reviewing it for my thesis. Oooh, no problema, no problem at all. jejeje. :lol: Bag-o ka ra di-ay ngari. Basi'g ma-culture shock ka, ayaw lang pud. Ayaw lang ug kakurat kay mao gyud na tanang tawo ngari hasta pud sa ubang mga foro. Sigue lang ug debate unya mga ki-at ilabi na kon daghan kaayo ug time nga i-waldas. Alegre baya pud ug makalingaw usahay. Magbinogoy ba kay con nipis ug nawong nah, di giud makasugakod sa mga si-aw caayo ngari. Dah, pulos man ta tingali mga amateur hobby linguists ngari except si Bai AngBantayanon.

Jala, para sa atong bag-o nga higala, Bienvenido al Foro, Maayong pag-abot diri, dayun, dayun, dayun, :lol: sigue lang ug post taman sa guinhawa kay maorag maantigo ka ra ba sa math. Ang ako nga M.a.t.h. lahi man gud (mayabang at tikalon hamburgero) apan pinangga jud nako tanang mga bisaya. :lol:

[Wind Shear]

^^ And why don't you take a look on SIL for your perusal. This is how the language is organized.

1. Cebuano (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_lang_family.asp?code=ceb)
2. Hiligaynon (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_lang_family.asp?code=ceb)

And for those who think Cebuano is a dialect, It IS NOT a dialect for your information. It IS a language by itself. There is a whale of difference between a language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language) and a dialect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect).

[Mercato]

^^ :? But I always refer to Cebuano and the other Visayan languages as languages, never as dialects...ako pa. The difference is crystal clear. :)

Unsa man na SIL? I only had a quick browse but I'll look it up later. SIL seems like a new brand of language learning CDs? My friends had vouched for the much better Rosetta Stone interactive CDs. Mas effective kuno... :lol:

[Wind Shear]

^^ :? But I always refer to Cebuano and the other Visayan languages as languages, never as dialects...ako pa. The difference is crystal clear. :)

Bai, I'm referring to those who think that Cebuano is dialect, not you (besides you have better knowledge than the rest). :)


Unsa man na SIL? I only had a quick browse but I'll look it up later. SIL seems like a new brand of language learning CDs? My friends had vouched for the much better Rosetta Stone interactive CDs. Mas effective kuno... :lol:

Summer Institute of Language. Their main purpose is to study, develop and document lesser-known languages in order to expand linguistic knowledge, promote literacy and aid minority language development.

[Mercato]

^^^^ aww, sigue salamat sa link, bai. ako unya na'ng tan-awon ang SIL con barato ilang mga CD. Cay ganahan ko makat-on ug Bahasa Melayu ug Putong-hua. :cheers:

[Ang_Bantayanon]

^^ akong guitan-aw ang iyang lugar, pulos man bisaya. hmmm, awww sigue na lang cay bisaya man. con dili pa gani bisaya nah, ihawon gyud ko ni'ng mao nga baktin ug himoong humba. :lol:
Ang maantigo bahin nianing mga butanga si Dr. Erlinda Alburo, sa USC Cebuano Studies. Ang right hand ni Dr. Alburo wala'y lain kun dili ang atong buotan nga higala nga si AngBantayanon. Basi'g maayo tingali nga makighimamat ka kang Ang Bantayanon ka'y daghan ni siya'g nahibaw-an bahin pud niining mga butanga. :) Sa kanhing thread gani nakahinumdom ko nga ana-a'y Forumer nga nagpatik ug link sa usa ka online English Cebuano Dictionary. :cheers:

Daghan salamat bai Mercato.. I'm not the right hand of Dr. Alburo... I was only a student of great Cebuano mentors like Dr. Alburo, Dr. Resil Mojares, Professors Bersales and Pascual.. I learned a lot from them.

Anyway, the only authoritative dictionary there is in the market is the one written by Fr. Cabonce. BUt personally, I prefer to use Wolfe's dictionary only that it is out of print -- my own copy is a photocopy. It is THE most authoritative.

[Mercato]

^^ salamat bai, once again...

[JunB]

Daghan salamat bai Mercato.. I'm not the right hand of Dr. Alburo... I was only a student of great Cebuano mentors like Dr. Alburo, Dr. Resil Mojares, Professors Bersales and Pascual.. I learned a lot from them.

Anyway, the only authoritative dictionary there is in the market is the one written by Fr. Cabonce. BUt personally, I prefer to use Wolfe's dictionary only that it is out of print -- my own copy is a photocopy. It is THE most authoritative.

Talking of out-of-print Cebuano and Cebu-related books, is there a move to digitize the few existing copies before they will forever be lost? Perhaps we can get some copyrights permission for "preservation" and archival purposes. I myself am looking for a copy of the 2 books by Col. Seguera.

JunB

[Ang_Bantayanon]

Some books maybe digitized in the future primarily because CSC doesn't have enough personnel.. Anyway, if you're in Cebu, JunB, I suggest that you visit the CNU Museum so that you can get a copy of the Koga Papers which is sold at a giveaway price. Tabunan is out of print now.

[Hajanlet]

Hmm... About old books, unsa na may status niana nila? I remembered back when I was in college that I found myself in the Cebu Studies Center looking for a Cebuano dictionary. Just went to the card catalogs. When I asked the librarian for the book, I was asked if I was sure kay karaan na kuno kaayo ang libro nya sensitive na kaayo.

The thing is that, most books there seemed to be in that state. So pangutana lang, what percentage of the books about Cebuano language are still in good enough condition that a casual visitor could peruse them without fear of somehow damaging them? Are the old books being copied? How well is it going? When I saw how so many of the books there were rather old, I had this vision of the old Cebuano language just rotting away.

Though I disapprove of how the national language is being too archaic in the way it is taught such that you risk sounding like an old book when going to Manila, the old words do have their uses. I've always been curious about our language and I tend to ask people I know to live in different areas to tell how they speak Bisaya differently to how it is spoken in Metro Cebu. Anyway, when I compared the remarks of someone from Zamboanga and someone from Santander, they both said that they use 'lantaw' instead of 'tan-aw'. I asked my mom, she thinks the difference is that 'tan-aw' is to look at something that is close to you while 'lantaw' is to look at something from afar like 'Naglantaw ko sa syudad gikan sa ibabaw sa Tops.' I know that people of my generation here in Metro Cebu tend to use only 'tan-aw' for both uses. I don't know the real answer the proper use of these words, but I'm sure that a dictionary of old Cebuano words could resolve this. It's really important that these works don't somehow end up disappearing.

BTW, what's the difference between 'gi' and 'guina' like in 'gibuhat' and 'guinabuhat'. My impression is that 'guina' refers to an ongoing action while 'gi' is at the past tense. I always get curious about this whenever I hear some of my friends talk because they use 'guina' where I would use 'gi'.

[Animo]

Diccionario español-bisaya para las provincias de Sámar y Leyte (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=philamer;cc=philamer;q1=Diccionario%20cebuano;rgn=full%20text;view=toc;idno=AQH5491.0001.001) / Compuesto por Antonio Sánchez de la Rosa ; corregido y aumentado por Antonio Valeriano Alcázar. [Vol. 1, no. 1]
Sánchez de la Rosa, Antonio., Alcázar, Antonio Valeriano.
Manila: Santos y Bermal, 1914.

Suplemento al diccionario Visaya = Español (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=philamer;cc=philamer;q1=Diccionario%20Bisaya-Espa%C3%B1ol;rgn=full%20text;view=toc;idno=ABS3815.0001.001) / compuesto por el R. P. Fr. Antonio V. Alcázar.
Alcázar, Antonio Valeriano
Manila: Imp. de Santos y Bernal, 1921.

Here are some digitalized dictionary that are available from University of Michigan. Also, to the Cebuano forumers you guys can also find a lot of old magazines, newspapers, literature, etc. from the Visayas. The do have an interesting amount of digitalized materials written in Spanish about the Philippines. For example, I have read some of the old Manila papers such as La Voz Española de Manila (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=philamer;cc=philamer;q1=la%20voz%20de%20espana;rgn=full%20text;view=toc;idno=AQW4382.0002.075) and Revista Filipina (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=philamer;cc=philamer;q1=revista%20filipina;rgn=full%20text;idno=ACP0898.1921.010;didno=ACP0898.1921.010;view=image;seq=00000007) which includes written English and Spanish versions.

[Mercato]

:lol: Ang akong feeling nianang gibuhat vs. guinabuhat mao kini. Ang gibuhat o guibuhat mao na ang na-andan namo diri sa dakbayan sa Sugbu ug Mandaue. Con ana-a mi madunggan nga mogamit sa ginabuhat o guinabuhat wa'ay lain ang among pagtuo nga kini influencia sa mga Western Visayans o Ylonggo. Ang i-spelling gi vs. gui mao pud ni. Ang gi maoy moderno apan ang gui mao ang kinara-an.

[habagatcentral1]

^^ As far as I notice, "Gui" is used in Cebuano and "Guina" is used in Hiligaynon/Ilonggo. Referring to progressive action of the verb. We in Hiligaynon speaking areas prefer and always use "Guina" when depicting progressive action; While Cebuanos prefer using "Gi/Gui" with the same purpose.

[Wind Shear]

Interesting note.

The phrase "gui" is pronounce same as "gi". The difference is the phrase "gui" is written in Spanish orthography. The sentence is written for example (Mercato loves to write that orthography):

Guilabay añg acoñg bató sa subá.

Is same written as:

Gilabay ang akong bato sa suba.

[bukid]

^^ As far as I notice, "Gui" is used in Cebuano and "Guina" is used in Hiligaynon/Ilonggo. Referring to progressive action of the verb. We in Hiligaynon speaking areas prefer and always use "Guina" when depicting progressive action; While Cebuanos prefer using "Gi/Gui" with the same purpose.

sa amo kay "Gin" as in "Ginkaon" instead of "gikaon" and "ginakaon".

[Hajanlet]

Hmm... It may well be that case that my friend's use of 'guina' is due to a western visayan influence since he has relatives in Negros and could understand Hiligaynon. My other friend has roots in Balamban so a western visayan influence is also viable. But how do we explain the word 'guinadili' which is very common in Cebu with all those signs saying 'Guinadili ang paglabay ug basura nganhing dapita.' Should it not be 'gidili'?

[Mercato]

It should be, That would've been the case a long time ago. The use of "guina" is still awkward to my ears - we just didn't use it before, having spent my first 21years in Cebu City. 'Tis widely accepted now due to the melting pot effect, languages are in a constant state of flux.

Esp those languages with no standard written nor spoken form, puro oido lang. That is where the distinct advantage of tagalog is, 'tis easier to preserve it because it has a standard written and standard oral form vis-a-vis the rest of the regional languages. For instance, I wrote a reply to our interloper in another thread; 'twas surprising to me that our Visayan brothers found my binisaya difficult or la'wom, to me it seemed very mild and standard binisaya as what I had read from the language syntax of Bisaya Magasin (Bulletin Publications). :)

But maybe as a safe rule of thumb (with some exceptions), those words with "guina" have the West Visayas influence, whilst "gui" is the older and the Cebuano variety.

[Mercato]

Diccionario español-bisaya para las provincias de Sámar y Leyte (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=philamer;cc=philamer;q1=Diccionario%20cebuano;rgn=full%20text;view=toc;idno=AQH5491.0001.001) / Compuesto por Antonio Sánchez de la Rosa ; corregido y aumentado por Antonio Valeriano Alcázar. [Vol. 1, no. 1]
Sánchez de la Rosa, Antonio., Alcázar, Antonio Valeriano.
Manila: Santos y Bermal, 1914.

Suplemento al diccionario Visaya = Español (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=philamer;cc=philamer;q1=Diccionario%20Bisaya-Espa%C3%B1ol;rgn=full%20text;view=toc;idno=ABS3815.0001.001) / compuesto por el R. P. Fr. Antonio V. Alcázar.
Alcázar, Antonio Valeriano
Manila: Imp. de Santos y Bernal, 1921.

Here are some digitalized dictionary that are available from University of Michigan. Also, to the Cebuano forumers you guys can also find a lot of old magazines, newspapers, literature, etc. from the Visayas. The do have an interesting amount of digitalized materials written in Spanish about the Philippines. For example, I have read some of the old Manila papers such as La Voz Española de Manila (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=philamer;cc=philamer;q1=la%20voz%20de%20espana;rgn=full%20text;view=toc;idno=AQW4382.0002.075) and Revista Filipina (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=philamer;cc=philamer;q1=revista%20filipina;rgn=full%20text;idno=ACP0898.1921.010;didno=ACP0898.1921.010;view=image;seq=00000007) which includes written English and Spanish versions. I remember another interloper here a long time ago asking about our use of "Te / Ti" or similar. I found the same expressions in hiligaynon, teh. Both seem to have their origins from the Spanish "te" - te amo, te quiero, no te olvidar. Te refers to the person ur talkin to.

In the same way, both Cebuano and Hiligaynon had used "te / ti / teh / ti'ti" merely as terms of endearment to the person they're talkin to.

I forgot to mention that these terms of endearment are on the same league as the inday and dodong. The te/ teh/ ti are usually used on older male relatives or friends, hence it has become more and more rare compared to the other 2. :D

[habagatcentral1]

Actually, we use "ti/te/teh" as something like "eh" of the Tagalogs or "lah" of the Singlish.

One example is: "Ay teh!"

Something that is part of the expression, but usually we speak it in a very gentle manner. The same word is also somewhat the directed translation of the English word "so." Like in this example:

"Teh, maano na lang ta ni man?" (So, what do we do?)

[Animo]

It's also like the Argentinian, Che! They use casually. On the other hand, we use the "Gui" in our family in our conversation. Ex. Guikan ni sa iya (This comes from him/her).

I believe the "Gui" is from the Spanish-Visayan vocabulary. It is pronounced the same way in Spanish. For example, the Spanish surname Guida.

[Mercato]

OT

[Il Tenore]

maayong hapon mga higala!! :)

musta na man mo?

[Mercato]

maau lang guihapon bai. :D

[amigo32]

dios mio marimar, mingaw man, mura mag naa sa sementeryo:D

[Il Tenore]

^^how enlightening! :lol: nabuhi gyud ko!

[Mercato]

Title: Igo na day
Album:
Artist: Max Surban

Igo na day, igo na day
Basin ako ug mamatay
Igo nang pagpaantos mo
Gisakitan ‘king dughan ko
Pagka hapdos pagka hapdos
‘Daw dili kona maantos
Kalipa’y mobang magsud-ong
Nga magbakhu ako intawon

Please love me dear, Please love me dear
I need your kiss a loving care
Balik na day, balik na day
Tambali king mangakalaay

Pagka hapdos pagka hapdos
‘Daw dili kona ma-antos
Kalipa’y mobang magsud-ong
Nga magbakho ako intawon

Please love me dear, Please love me dear
I need your kiss a loving care
Balik na day, balik na day
Tambali king mangakalaay
---------------------------------------
:lol:

na jala kamo na'ay mag-igo kay wa ko kakita sa melody.

[Mercato]

Title: Kuntis sa hambog
Album:
Artist: Max Surban

May tulo ako ka amigo, na pulos gayud gwatsinanggo
Makainum gani malipong ang ulo, mogula ang pagkamaldito
Kung mag-abot dayung debate lupig nila ang abogado
Labi na gyud ug mgahubog kay magkuntis dayun sa hambog

Sa hinambugay magdaog ta, ako waray, hilonggo ka, ug cebuano sab siya

Intra waray
Didto intoy sa among bungtod sa samar ug leyte
Ako kadak-an pinakareko nga pensyonado hang us navy
Salit bugto ko si Mc Arthur kaupayhan amoy rekwerdo
Giregalo na sa akon ang iyang antiyohos ug kwako

Sa hinambugay magdaog ta, ako waray, hilonggo ka, ug cebuano siya

Abante cebuano
Ako intawon mga amigo mantinil lang gayud ug pangnigosyo
Gi senyor senyor ako sa mga tawo kay tag-iya lang lagi ug mga barko
Ang siyam ko ka mga tarato giapuran kuna regalo
Sila tag dyes iktaryas kwadrado sa akung yuta sa menteryo

Tirato Hilonggo
Ako sa amo gyud aprop sa bacolod kag iloilo nga ako numero uno nga asindero sa tubo
Kun ako gyud inyo patihon pang olimpik gini ni kaayo, kay sa amo iya ang kawarta
ginapiko ginapala

Repeat 2x
Sa hinambugay magdaog ta, ako waray, hilonggo ka, ug cebuano siya

Ti mabatu pabagid kamo sa akon

SELaplana >> Songs Lyrics >> M >> Max Surban >>

:hilarious :hilarious :hilarious

[bukid]

^^

9CZ_olRF3CA

ilado ang waray sa kaisog ug sa battle of leyte gulf kung asa ni-landing si macarthur tungod sa pagkapildi sa mga hapon didto sa leyte.

ilado pud ang mga sugbuanon sa pagkanegosyante kaayo ug halos ang mga tag-iya sa dagkong barko gikan sa cebu. (gothong, aboitiz, chongbian...)

ilado pud ang mga ilonggo sa pagka mga haciendero tungod sa mga tubuhan sa negros.

mga ngilngig gyud ning mga bisaya. :D:D:D

[Mercato]

^^ :okay: da best, bai.

[ezekiel_]

Title: Igo na day
Album:
Artist: Max Surban

Igo na day, igo na day
Basin ako ug mamatay
Igo nang pagpaantos mo
Gisakitan ‘king dughan ko
Pagka hapdos pagka hapdos
‘Daw dili kona maantos
Kalipa’y mobang magsud-ong
Nga magbakhu ako intawon

Please love me dear, Please love me dear
I need your kiss a loving care
Balik na day, balik na day
Tambali king mangakalaay

Pagka hapdos pagka hapdos
‘Daw dili kona ma-antos
Kalipa’y mobang magsud-ong
Nga magbakho ako intawon

Please love me dear, Please love me dear
I need your kiss a loving care
Balik na day, balik na day
Tambali king mangakalaay
---------------------------------------
:lol:

na jala kamo na'ay mag-igo kay wa ko kakita sa melody.
gimingaw na hino-on ko sa akong pagkabata da! makalingaw kaayu ni ug kanta si nyor Max.., kanang mangumpra ni sa carbon malingaw ko mamniaw aning kantaha jaja!!:):banana:

[Mercato]

^^:yes:

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

eMTcW16hucU

bai magkatawa gyud lagi ko aning series sa HARINGBUANG....:lol::lol::lol:

[Il Tenore]

maayong kadlawon mga higala!:D

musta na man?

ok ra gihapon ko.. lagsik gihapon! hehe!

[Mercato]

eMTcW16hucU

bai magkatawa gyud lagi ko aning series sa HARINGBUANG....:lol::lol::lol: yea, I like both Haringbuang and the full movie Apocalypto. The bida's wife in the movie is very pretty.

[Sleepwalker]

maayong kadlawon mga higala!:D

musta na man?

ok ra gihapon ko.. lagsik gihapon! hehe!

Ayaw lagi sige og sakay anang imong silhig para di ka maabtan og kadlawon...Hahahahahaha

[Sleepwalker]

disi says anyos pa lang ako, sa dihang ikaw akong nakita,
sa wala tuyoa, kasingkasing ko mikulba.
sa tumang kaanyag sa imong dagway,
dili ko kapugngan nga motulo akong laway.

pero tungod lagi sa kinabuhi kong giahak,
ang kaibog ko kanimo, wala gayud akoy nabuhat.
gidamgo, nagdamgo, ug damgohon ko ikaw sa kanunay,
tungod ning kasing kasing ko, nahigugma kanimo sa tiunay.

di mapugngan ang pagdagayday ning akong luha,
kay sa atong lugar ako naman mobiya.
manimpalad na ako sama sa langgam na guryon,
namasin nga sa akong pagbalik, ikaw sarang akong maangkon.
pipila ka mga tuig ang nangagi, mahinamon na ako sa akong pagpauli.

kay aduna naman akoy natigum na bahandi,
na sarang kanimo, mao lang ang bugti.
apan ako na lang nahisayran,
nga ikaw, anaa na sa kamot sa usa ka adunahan.
tibook kong kalag, nalumoy,
sa pagkahugno sa akong mga pangandoy.

sa wala tuyoa, ikaw akong nakit-an,
ug sa wala tuyoa ako nakuratan.
tungod sa dako mong kausaban,
kasing kasing ko nasakitan.

ikaw ilang gidagmalan,
lawas mo,ilang gipahimuslan.
ambot, kung duna pa ba kahigayunan nga ikaw maulian,
nga nagkagusbat naman kanang imong binarugan.

kadena nimo pwerti nang tayaa!
lingkoranan nimong pwerting gubaa!
ligid mong pwerti nang lataa!
giatay kang bisiklitaha ka!

:lol::lol::lol:

[fil07]

If you know Sugbuanon Cebu, Sugbuanon Leyte/Kana, Sugbuanon Bohol/Boholano, Sugbuanon Davao words (as well as Tagalog Batangas, Tagalog Bulacan, Tagalog Tanay-Paete, Tagalog Manila/Filipino, Tagalog Tayabas, Tagalog Marinduque East and West) words, paki-contribute sa www.tagalogsubguanontranslator.blogspot.com

[Hajanlet]

I see that the thread has moved somewhat. I hope it's okay to get back to an older post, namely that there are around 10M Cebuanos. There may be those who may disagree with this statistic, but the point I'll raise is about using the mother tongue in school.

Some years back, there was this supposed debate/discussion at ANC about the subject of implementing mother tongues for teaching. It was a rather once sided affair, Korina (sp?) Sanchez was hosting it along with some prominent academicians and I found it rather biased in that they were all speaking archaic Tagalog. Essentially declaring that the participants are in favor of the current system. Anyway, even with their apparent bias they were not able to shoot down the fact that it's more edifying to teach a person in their mother tongue.

I would recall a lecture I had in psychology class about sexuality where the teacher suddenly shifted from English to Cebuano. The effect was that the classed laughed. The teacher then stopped the discussion to ask why were we laughing; he was talking about the same things only in different languages. The short of the matter is that we are able to make connections when a discussion is in our native tongues that we would not find as easily when the discussion is with a second language. A common trend with students studying is to translate key points of a lesson into their native tongues.

Going back to 10M Cebuanos, even with the benefits of using the mother tongue, the idea of implementing it in the country is the limitation on resources. We have a lot of languages and the argument is that there isn't enough money for it. The argument is actually only mostly valid if the populations, categorized by language, are evenly distributed. It may be true that it unrealistically expensive to make textbooks and train teachers for a language with only a few thousand speakers, but 10M is quite a different story.

Another mitigating factor for the so called difficulty with implementing the use of mother tongues in schools is the time table. Whenever someone brings up how it's not possible with the budget to implement it for all the languages, they are casting the image of doing it for all school levels at once, which is not really the way to do it as I know from experience. Somewhere on my 3rd or 4th grade, the subject called 'Civics and Culture' became 'Sibika at Kultura' and the resulting confusion is actually one of the reasons why I hate the current system. Although I had Filipino since 1st grade, the 'Sibika at Kultura' book was rather advanced in its use of the language for me to comprehend. The word archipelago got exchanged for a word which, even now, I still can't remember.

I think that given the option for a province to replace Filipino with a subject for their own language that a province like Cebu could eventually return to the days where Cebuano was taught the first few years in grade school like they did in my parents' time. And also for Cebuano to become a language of instruction instead of being treated like a slip up on the teachers part as it is sometimes really helpful if something is explained in plain language. Makabantay gud baya ka nga galisud na gud ug explikar ang maestro kay gipugos man gud ug Ininglis. Kung dili lang English ang subject, mahimo ra gud taha na nga mag Cebuano.

I really think that a slow implementation of doing one grade level at a time along with a reasonably long time interval between succeeding implementations would make the use of mother tongues very viable.

I don't think I'm asking for much here. Just that Cebuano is taught in grade school with a very conservative limit of until 3rd grade, though it would be good if done up to 6th grade, and the freedom to use it on an equal level with English at all other school levels. It think we're severely limiting our production of professionals by using English/Filipino. It has essentially become a requisite to be good with languages to be good at schools, but how important is it for engineers, mathematicians and scientists to be very good in languages compared to analytical skills and arithmetic? I know that technical reports and scientific papers need good writings skills, but I also know that the Chinese and the Japanese are able to get away with poor English skills and still have well respected papers. The focus of those papers are technical know-how, not diction and grammar. Ang naa lang nato kay naa'y mga maayo musuwat apan dili inunana ka nindot o relevant ang nahimo.

Think of all the people who have difficulty at school just because of the language barrier?

I'm writing this without bothering to edit, so I hope my post makes sense. Good night!

[bukid]

^^ niuyon gyud ko nimo bai. :okay: kay sa dugay na na panahon mao gyud ni ako gisigig pasabot nila. mas maayo pa man kung kuhaon nalang nang "Filipino"/"tagalog" na subject aron maka-concentrate ug matagaan ug mas dakong panahon na makakat-on ang ato mga bata ug mga mas mahinungdanon na butang pareha anang math ug science o physics.

[Wind Shear]

During my college days, There is one history subject taught in... Cebuano! At first, I was expecting just another subject using English as medium of instruction, but Prof. Rudy Rodil changed everything. I may not as articulate as Cebuano radio commentators, but hey, it's really fun! :)

By the way, the subject of the History is History 3: History of Mindanao, Sulu, and Palawan (MINSUPALA).

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

^^ niuyon gyud ko nimo bai. :okay: kay sa dugay na na panahon mao gyud ni ako gisigig pasabot nila. mas maayo pa man kung kuhaon nalang nang "Filipino"/"tagalog" na subject aron maka-concentrate ug matagaan ug mas dakong panahon na makakat-on ang ato mga bata ug mga mas mahinungdanon na butang pareha anang math ug science o physics.

bai @bukid... i feel you very much brother. I, like most of us, wants to revive cebuano language in classrooms because for the reason that it is more appropriate. I have been giving explanations from the other threads and I can't get enough sympathy because obviously I am discussion issues at the wrong people... I believe that Filipino should still be a school subject but this time, a native language spoken in the classroom. I understand that the government created Filipino because the some major ethnic languages denounced Tagalog has the official language. In the first place, why should the government create/invent a language to separate itself from the existing languages we have right now. Is tagalog, cebuano, ilocano, waray, hiligaynon, etc. not philippine languages spoken by filipinos why the government created this language? It is quite impossible that you create a language from all these languages without a base language which unfortunately is tagalog. The problem here is the creation of a language favoring one ethnic group. why not the government acknowledge and enrich these languages without making a language for all of us. We can teach Filipino in every province using the language dominant in the province and not a language that is dominantly tagalog in origin because we are still filipinos anyway.

actually its a matter of the schools already because the constitution already acknowledges using native languages for students to be able to understand these subjects more but i don't think math, science or physics are thought in tagalog... I suggest scraping tagalog out of Filipino and change it to where it suits a province. e.g Cebu schools should have a Filipino subject based in Cebuano, Ilonggo schools should have a Filipino subject based in Ilonggo, etc.. in that way every province and culture will be able to further enhance their knowledge about their culture, history and tradition. I must admit i have less knowledge about cebuano culture because it never was a subject in our school practically because we all have those Noli, El Fili, Ibon Adarna, Florante at Laura, etc. that I believe we should not forget studying our own literatures too....

[Ang_Bantayanon]

I don't think I'm asking for much here. Just that Cebuano is taught in grade school with a very conservative limit of until 3rd grade, though it would be good if done up to 6th grade, and the freedom to use it on an equal level with English at all other school levels. It think we're severely limiting our production of professionals by using English/Filipino. It has essentially become a requisite to be good with languages to be good at schools, but how important is it for engineers, mathematicians and scientists to be very good in languages compared to analytical skills and arithmetic? I know that technical reports and scientific papers need good writings skills, but I also know that the Chinese and the Japanese are able to get away with poor English skills and still have well respected papers. The focus of those papers are technical know-how, not diction and grammar. Ang naa lang nato kay naa'y mga maayo musuwat apan dili inunana ka nindot o relevant ang nahimo.

Think of all the people who have difficulty at school just because of the language barrier?



This is the reason why children should be taught the local language first. Once they have mastered their own tongue then it's time for them to be taught a second language which can be English, then when they shall have mastered that, Tagalog. :banana:

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

This is the reason why children should be taught the local language first. Once they have mastered their own tongue then it's time for them to be taught a second language which can be English, then when they shall have mastered that, Tagalog. :banana:

oh well never mind.... i'd better learn speak ibaloi...:lol::lol::lol:

[Wind Shear]

^^^

And Hiligaynon. :D

[Ang_Bantayanon]

oh well never mind.... i'd better learn speak ibaloi...:lol::lol::lol:

Hahaha! Only a Cebuano can truly say that! :banana:

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

^^

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[habagatcentral1]

I have to ask...How do we converse with non-Cebuano peoples? How do we educate the people to understand one group and another? What do you suggest? Other than speaking in English (which has different in syntax construction, concept, etc from the Austronesian variety) what are your suggestions in bridging the language gap?

[Sleepwalker]

Good question.

Perhaps we can use sign language?....Hehehehehe

Seriously, Tagalog is fine but there should be some sort of a little freedom to use our mother tongue during our early years in school.

And perhaps we can also have local history in our high school or elementary years. We would like to know who are the people behind Cebu's history, because for sure, General Aguinaldo did not fight for Cebu.

[habagatcentral1]

Braile as a written language? Hehehe!!! :D

But honestly, except for the Western languages, what would make us or how would people make us understand each other? What Bahasa?

[mwg12a]

^^^^ MIght as well so we don't hear one another...LOL

[mwg12a]

What Bahasa?

Unsa man baha bai? Cebu??LOL

[Wind Shear]

Berns, you should read this thread from other forum: http://www.istorya.net/forums/general-discussions/21597-a-guide-dos-and-donts-in-cebu.html


Here are some important points:

Just be good to everyone but at the same time cautious. Start to have a close small group of friends in your office. But don't mess with and piss off Cebuanos.

Don't be a show-off. Observe first how people socialize and do their thing.

Every now and then, try to insert a word or two of Cebuano, Cebuanos will be glad to hear you trying hard to talk in the native tongue.

Perhaps we (as Cebuanos) should further explain why we are kinda annoyed at the Tagalogs. If I may, I would like to contribute couple of reasons:

1. When Cebuanos go to Manila, of course, we're expected to speak in Tagalog no matter how bad it is, however, when the Tagalogs come and stay in Cebu, they still expect us Cebuanos to speak in Tagalog. I make it a habit to speak in Cebuano or English whenever I meet Manilans who have stayed in Cebu for a long time, yet still speak to us in Tagalog.

2. The people from Manila, most of the time, display air of superiority as if Cebuanos are never exposed and stupid.

Cebuanos are very friendly and nice, accommodating, tolerant and usually humble (which people take as being naive), but please don't take this as inferior.

[habagatcentral1]

And perhaps we can also have local history in our high school or elementary years. We would like to know who are the people behind Cebu's history, because for sure, General Aguinaldo did not fight for Cebu.

This I have to agree and must be at utmost priority within the formative education days...That is why the works of local historians is important in order to give the right lessons of history for these young ones.

In making that, they could appreciate better their locality and at the same time, have a bigger perspective of the country.

[habagatcentral1]

Berns, you should read this thread from other forum: http://www.istorya.net/forums/general-discussions/21597-a-guide-dos-and-donts-in-cebu.html

I read this already bai James...What I was asking if how can we consolidate or understand each other except for Tagalog? And what are your suggestions?

[Sleepwalker]

I read this already bai James...What I was asking if how can we consolidate or understand each other except for Tagalog? And what are your suggestions?

Is there really a need to find a replacement for Tagalog/Filipino? From how I see it, it is not the language that has the problem (except of course for those who have difficulties speaking Tagalog). We need to dig deeper as to why there is such bitterness among the promdis towards Tagalog?

I don't like to conclude, but basing from the discussions here in SSC, i observed that most of the time, Cebuanos have more tendency to express resentment towards Tagalogs. Why?

Are Cebuanos insecure? Or Cebuanos are bitter towards the Philippines = Manila equation?

[Wind Shear]

Are Cebuanos insecure? Or Cebuanos are bitter towards the Philippines = Manila equation?

I don't think Cebuanos are insecure because if they did, dugay ra ta naggukod sa Manila.

Cebuanos are humble, yet kon mahilabtan, dagkong piti gayud tanan. The point is: respect the culture, not just only Cebuano culture. If you don't like it, then respect. That's the Cebuanos need.

[bukid]

@sleepwalker:

learning tagalog is not a problem. but i don;t think it would be beneficial or good to impose tagalog subjects during the primary years. that is why i propose that tagalog be taught during secondary level. and we dont have to remove tagalog/filipino as official language. just the designation as a "national" language. that way, there's no debate as to what group is more superior than the rest. and also to avoid designating something as national and the rest as regional and unworthy of being promoted in the national level.

[Wind Shear]

@sleepwalker:

learning tagalog is not a problem. but i don;t think it would be beneficial or good to impose tagalog subjects during the primary years. that is why i propose that tagalog be taught during secondary level. and we dont have to remove tagalog/filipino as official language. just the designation as a "national" language. that way, there's no debate as to what group is more superior than the rest. and also to avoid designating something as national and the rest as regional and unworthy of being promoted in the national level.

How I wish the people of Philippine Islands has the free will to choose the second language.

I also agree that there will be no official language in this country.

[bukid]

How I wish the people of Philippine Islands has the free will to choose the second language.

I also agree that there will be no official language in this country.

official language, no problem.

national language, that's a big problem

we must not give any group a propaganda tool where the language and culture of one particular group would be made into a measuring rod for "nationalism" while the rest will be branded as regionalism.

[Hajanlet]

Replace Tagalog? It's redundant when our schools also teach English. The proper word is remove. If I have to spend time learning something, I might as well learn something more useful or relevant like my own language. Why do I have to learn Tagalog? If you recall all the indoctrination at school as to why we should learn it, it's because it's supposed to be a language that is our own. Personally, I find the language to be as foreign as English with the disadvantage that it happens to be less useful.

The point of learning a common language is to facilitate communication with peoples of other cultures. Since all Filipinos are taught English; learning Tagalog is pointless. Learning it is a matter of cultural relevance in which case, Tagalog language is relevant to Tagalog culture. To Cebuano culture, it's Cebuano language and not Tagalog.

Why are Cebuanos denied the right to their cultural heritage? Why is it so hard for some people to understand that this only means that non-Tagalog cultures are second class? One ethnic group has more freedom than others. Their freedom of expression extends to their own language; ours has to be translated to the National one. One culture is raised as the ideal with the others relegated to being flawed cultures that would have to be corrected by injecting them with 'Filipino'.

Insecure? The problem, though I don't think it's a problem, is that Cebuanos happen to be very secure. We know the worth of our heritage. We see our culture as something that is not flawed, not needing 'correction' with 'Filipino'. Cebuanos know enough to appreciate their culture even if legislation, and the indoctrination in our schools would label it as inferior, as something best forgotten for the sake of national unity. The real problem is with those cultures that have lost the will to love their own. I don't know what other cultures in the Philippines may value, but Cebuanos have a high regard for the value called fairness and have great respect for the ideal called equality.

The real flaw with the goal of trying to achieve national unity by making us culturally homogeneous is that our lack of unity it not really with the cultural differences. People will always be different, even if they happen to be of the same culture. Instead of snuffing out our cultural diversity, the better way is to promote cooperation between cultures and this is not possible for as long as one culture sees itself as superior to others. There should not be any legislation that elevates any culture over others. As with the separation of Church and State, the government in a multicultural country like ours should strive to be culturally unbiased.

[flesh_is_weak]

a language for people from different regional backgrounds to communicate with each other? English of course...

what's wrong with that? and as a bonus, we wont have to go through tests such as IELTS or TOEFL when we opt to work or study abroad...

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

Replace Tagalog? It's redundant when our schools also teach English. The proper word is remove. If I have to spend time learning something, I might as well learn something more useful or relevant like my own language. Why do I have to learn Tagalog?

very well! tagalog is just making cebuanos tongue twisted! being a economically strong city and province, why should we use such language we don't own! we grew as a city and province by using our language and not tagalog!

Why are Cebuanos denied the right to their cultural heritage? Why is it so hard for some people to understand that this only means that non-Tagalog cultures are second class?

sadly, im sick about jose rizal, etc. they never fight for us or even mindanao. they were just fighting in the north and taking their ideals for the whole philippines! i'd rather learn how leon kilat grew up until the time he died defending cebu from spain, etc. If cebu or mindanao could have been making moves to free themselves from spanish oppression then we could have been independent by now!

Insecure? The problem, though I don't think it's a problem, is that Cebuanos happen to be very secure. We know the worth of our heritage.

because cebuanos don't want to play their game.

[habagatcentral1]

Except for English (or any other Western language), what do you suggest that could bridge up the different ethno-linguistic groups? How do you implement this realistically?

Now I was thinking of Africa...Zambia uses English and Democratic Republic of Congo uses French...but still uses their own native tongue in their respective groups..

I think the only distinction between us and Africa is that we do not resort to ethnic genocide.

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

Except for English (or any other Western language), what do you suggest that could bridge up the different ethno-linguistic groups? How do you implement this realistically?

Now I was thinking of Africa...Zambia uses English and Democratic Republic of Congo uses French...but still uses their own native tongue in their respective groups..

I think the only distinction between us and Africa is that we do not resort to ethnic genocide.

english bro, english. and all right,some may say it will still promote discrimination because of urbanization, urban people will downgrade provincial people from the way they speak, etc. i understand it because english is a universal language and we filipinos all learn from it. i guess spanish spoken in south america and not the castilian spanish spoken in spain because we have long contacts from south america. i guess if philippine geography was placed in south america, we could have embrace spanish because it will alienate us from the rest of the spanish speaking world. i believe spanish america has many native indian languages e.g. aymara, guarani, aztecs, maya, inca, quechua etc. just like ours. if spain could have conquered other asian countries, then most probably there could also be latin asian countries speaking spanish.... i think there are many spanish-based creole languages in the world compared to english-based creole languages which might even have none...:)

[habagatcentral1]

Hay...nevermind... My question was clear but anyway...

I'll just enjoy what life gives me rather than thinking about it...peace! :nocrook: Kay basin modugang na uban nako...:D

[bukid]

English is an international language. i dont see anything wrong with using it. but don't make it a national language coz we are not englishmen. but as a language of international communication, making it an official language is okey with me.

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

ay ambot...i have aired my views and that's it.... i will not mind anymore basta i can only speak cebuano and english here, i guess a little spanish too bahalag tagalog paka o diin pakang planeta gikan, wa koy labot bahalag way makasabot nako, problema na na sa magbasa, paningkamot makakita mog makatranslate to a language you best understand.... i hope i can see a congress with its members freely speak their own language even though some might not understand them. maybe the government can purchase translators pareha sa UN general assembly ba na if the speaker speaks his native language kay naay headsets to translate the language the speaker just said. :lol::lol::lol:

[habagatcentral1]

:lol: :lol: :D

[Hajanlet]

That's right, I don't really see a problem with using English. To make things simple, we should just quit trying to implement a one state one nation paradigm and admit that we are a state with many nations. To say that our country could not work if we don't forge/force our many nations into one is to say that organizations like the UN and ASEAN are a waste of time.

I really can't help but laugh at those people who say that Filipino is the glue holding our nation together. If a thing is whole, you don't need to glue it together. Instead of thinking of a porcelain plate that was dropped and broken to many pieces, think of a set of Chinaware; different pieces working together while being separate. Your set of China actually becomes useless if you glue them into one big lump.

Wala na gud hinuon ko kasabot ining uban nga tao. Naa'y nagpaingon nga 'insecure' kunohay ang Sugbuanon kay issue kaayo ta niining pagamit sa Tagalog. Kanang maginsistar ngari nga kahinganlan gud ta ug laing ligwahe gawas sa Iningles, unsa man diay mo? Dili mo kahibaw magIningles o kamo lang tingali hinuon na ang 'insecure' kay feeling small kaayo kung itupad ni Uncle Sam? Sa ako lang, wala gud ko'y problema sa mga Kano. I know that we have a history of being their colony, but do we really have to carry grudges. Are the people in the US insecure around the British? Is that why they have US English instead of UK English as their standard? Hahay, the use of English is a practicality nowadays. Let's quit painting it with Nationalistic issues.

Ang problema ra nako sa Tagalog/Filipino kay usik ra na sa akong oras nya tan-aw nako mas epektibo man kung ang mga studyante nato kay mahimong explekaran ug Sinibuano sa ilahang mga leksyon. Right now, there isn't much of a status for using Cebuano with English in our schools and I'd want that changed. I had one sem teaching in USC and it was at that time that our faculty received a memo that we should refrain from using Cebuano because the foreigners were complaining. Though naa kuno nay secondary status ang ubang lingwahe, mao lagi, secondary. Sa akong naagian ngari skwela sa UST, Tagalogan man na nila ang foreigner. If I recall correctly, naa'y requirement ang UP nga kahibalo ug gamay nga Filipino ang foreign students. Ang Sugbuanon intawn, i-brush aside nalang, himuong lingwahe sa dili edukado. Dili gud na angay.

[habagatcentral1]

So it would be Negeri Cebu, Negara Pilipina or Negara Republika Cebu, Negara Republika Pilipina?

Got another question...how about those who do not understand English? I know for certain that there are some people who doesn't know how to speak and understand English in this country. How can we communicate with them personally?

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

^^

maoba? so that's it. basta bro. fight for your being a cebuano! bahalag i-shooting range paka pareha ni rizal...speak what suits you...speak your mind! speak cebuano! bahalag magnosebleed sila maminaw... our constitution never said such ban. :)

[Wind Shear]

Got another question...how about those who do not understand English? I know for certain that there are some people who doesn't know how to speak and understand English in this country. How can we communicate with them personally?

The question is, how do you prepare before you travel to another place with an another language?

[Hajanlet]

Negara? You mean 'ni-gara'? Well, I think 'ni-gara' is better than 'ni-itoy'. Some people may find it okay to roll over, beg, and show their puppy dog eyes to the capital for every morsel of funding, waiting ever so eagerly for praise and a pat in the head. Some may justify the loss of a little dignity for such trinkets. What is it they say about sacrificing a little liberty for a little security? I think there is an equivalent expression in this case.

The thing is that our country happens to call itself a democracy and the provinces are not colonies. They should not have another culture imposed on them, at least, there must be a choice in the matter. If the provinces are given the option to teach their own language, and their local history and they stick to the old paradigm, then they have at least made a choice.

Filipinos are ever the copycats are they not? Back in Rizal's time, he had to work hard to counter claims that the Indios are less intelligent than westerners due to their smaller craniums and that our colonization by them was actually doing us a service because we need their guidance; too stupid to choose for themselves. When we had our freedom, one culture was chosen and elevated over others because they are supposed to be magalang and cultured. The barbarians in the other regions of the country had to be Filipinized for the sake of progress. It's really just the repetition of what our colonizers did, though we now call it nationalism.

I know I'm doing what the 'enlightened people' call regionalism. I'd just have to ask, does love exist in a vacuum? How do these 'smart, open-minded, progressive individuals' expect me to love being a Filipino if I'm not allowed to begin with being allowed to love my being a Cebuano? It is my view that a person who cannot love himself cannot begin to love another. How is a traitor to his own heritage a loyalist to another? Where is the integrity? Is the lack of integrity a thing to promote in our country? Is that how our government officials are such exemplary role models for being so corruptible?

[habagatcentral1]

The question is, how do you prepare before you travel to another place with an another language?

In my personal travel..if I know the language by heart, I speak it...if I don't then I resort to "standard" language.

Negara? You mean 'ni-gara'? Well, I think 'ni-gara' is better than 'ni-itoy'. Some people may find it okay to roll over, beg, and show their puppy dog eyes to the capital for every morsel of funding, waiting ever so eagerly for praise and a pat in the head. Some may justify the loss of a little dignity for such trinkets. What is it they say about sacrificing a little liberty for a little security? I think there is an equivalent expression in this case.


Sorry if I used Bahasa but I was referring to:
Negeri as a state, and Negara as the over-all federation of states or the umbrella state...They used this in Malaysia.

In other words, will federalism be one of the solutions?

[Sleepwalker]

So it would be Negeri Cebu, Negara Pilipina or Negara Republika Cebu, Negara Republika Pilipina?

Got another question...how about those who do not understand English? I know for certain that there are some people who doesn't know how to speak and understand English in this country. How can we communicate with them personally?

It is said action speaks louder than words and a picture paints a thousand words...So let's start from there...Hehehehehe

[habagatcentral1]

^^ Sign language and braille! Hehehe!!! :D

[icarusrising]

^^

The federal nations still have one common language, don't they?

[Igsuonnimo]

Got another question...how about those who do not understand English? I know for certain that there are some people who doesn't know how to speak and understand English in this country. How can we communicate with them personally?

Noong last year(November 02,2007) na nasa Banga,Aklan ako at nuong isang beses na nagdasal ako kasama ang Nanay ko, Tiyahin ko, at mga pamangkin sa harap ng puntod ng lolo't lola ko. Habang binabanggit ko ang Our Father ...Hail Mary ...Glory Be prayer ...I Believe in God --sumasagot itong pamangkin ko sa Ingles, Tagalog at sa Akeanon. At kinikilabutan ako kapag nagdadasal sa Akeanon itong mga pamangkin ko.
Ang galing! nagagawang nilang mag-switch from English to Tagalog to Akeanon.

Sabi ko sa Nanay ko na hindi nagkulang ang Lola at Lolo ko sa pagtuturo ng pagdarasal sa mga anak at apo nya kasi pati itong mga pamangkin ko ay magaling sa Ingles-Tagalog-Akeanon.

[icarusrising]

^^ That's music to my ears but English doesn't quite capture the true essence of what we want to express at times... walang dating... iba pa rin kapag mas malapit sa puso... may kirot sa damdamin... may sikdo sa dibdib... tumatatak sa isipan... :lol:

[Hajanlet]

What you're saying above are essentially the essence of why mother tongues should be promoted. People miss out on a connection when something is expressed in a 2nd or 3rd language.

[icarusrising]

^^ I speak of the need for a common tongue that can be an avenue for expressing the nuances and subtleties of our Philippine culture. English is too alien for me.

[Sleepwalker]

^^ Sign language and braille! Hehehe!!! :D

I see a picture of SSC thread flooded with photos...:nuts::nuts::nuts:

I think, Cebuanos(and perhaps people from other ethnic groups) are just suffocated with Manila-centric "national" stuffs...Why Andres Bonifacio's struggles were written on the history textbooks, while local heroes of Cebu were not? Were they not fighting the same battle?

I don't see any end to this topic. From time to time, people will still discuss about this (either on SSC or outside). There will always be two opposing sides...Cebuanos and those who don't understand the sentiments of Cebuanos.

[habagatcentral1]

Same here...I am just either for 2 things:
Understanding each other and respect. That's all I need.

Regarding the historiography, we should be thankful that the trend nowadays in Philippine historiography is to go local...because in the grand narrative of Filipino history, there are some things that were left blank, therefore the narrative couldn't sustain the question thus leading the local academicians or historians to research. :) In other words, the grand narrative of Filipino history couldn't give us a clear picture...since most of the events that happened in one place is neither isolated nor spontaneous. :)

[Sleepwalker]

Glad to hear that, Sir Berns...At last, local histories will be given highlight...:cheer::cheer::cheer:

I wonder why our local movie producers don't give so much attention on making films from our history.

Am interested to see some movies about World War II in the Philippines. Maybe they can make something like Band of Brothers or Pearl Harbor or even the history of our generals. The movies about Gen. Patton and Gen. MacArthur are interesting.

I hope they could make a movie about:

- The Leyte Landing
- The Death March
- The Battle of Bataan (sounds like The Battle of Midway or The Battle of Bulge)

[habagatcentral1]

^^ Hmmmm...because the pop culture does not want it and its boring. When I refer to pop culture, I'm referring to the greater majority of the populace...This is a headache even for history teachers for most of the people would only take history for granted.

[bukid]

That's right, I don't really see a problem with using English. To make things simple, we should just quit trying to implement a one state one nation paradigm and admit that we are a state with many nations. To say that our country could not work if we don't forge/force our many nations into one is to say that organizations like the UN and ASEAN are a waste of time.

I really can't help but laugh at those people who say that Filipino is the glue holding our nation together. If a thing is whole, you don't need to glue it together. Instead of thinking of a porcelain plate that was dropped and broken to many pieces, think of a set of Chinaware; different pieces working together while being separate. Your set of China actually becomes useless if you glue them into one big lump.

Wala na gud hinuon ko kasabot ining uban nga tao. Naa'y nagpaingon nga 'insecure' kunohay ang Sugbuanon kay issue kaayo ta niining pagamit sa Tagalog. Kanang maginsistar ngari nga kahinganlan gud ta ug laing ligwahe gawas sa Iningles, unsa man diay mo? Dili mo kahibaw magIningles o kamo lang tingali hinuon na ang 'insecure' kay feeling small kaayo kung itupad ni Uncle Sam? Sa ako lang, wala gud ko'y problema sa mga Kano. I know that we have a history of being their colony, but do we really have to carry grudges. Are the people in the US insecure around the British? Is that why they have US English instead of UK English as their standard? Hahay, the use of English is a practicality nowadays. Let's quit painting it with Nationalistic issues.

Ang problema ra nako sa Tagalog/Filipino kay usik ra na sa akong oras nya tan-aw nako mas epektibo man kung ang mga studyante nato kay mahimong explekaran ug Sinibuano sa ilahang mga leksyon. Right now, there isn't much of a status for using Cebuano with English in our schools and I'd want that changed. I had one sem teaching in USC and it was at that time that our faculty received a memo that we should refrain from using Cebuano because the foreigners were complaining. Though naa kuno nay secondary status ang ubang lingwahe, mao lagi, secondary. Sa akong naagian ngari skwela sa UST, Tagalogan man na nila ang foreigner. If I recall correctly, naa'y requirement ang UP nga kahibalo ug gamay nga Filipino ang foreign students. Ang Sugbuanon intawn, i-brush aside nalang, himuong lingwahe sa dili edukado. Dili gud na angay.

Negara? You mean 'ni-gara'? Well, I think 'ni-gara' is better than 'ni-itoy'. Some people may find it okay to roll over, beg, and show their puppy dog eyes to the capital for every morsel of funding, waiting ever so eagerly for praise and a pat in the head. Some may justify the loss of a little dignity for such trinkets. What is it they say about sacrificing a little liberty for a little security? I think there is an equivalent expression in this case.

The thing is that our country happens to call itself a democracy and the provinces are not colonies. They should not have another culture imposed on them, at least, there must be a choice in the matter. If the provinces are given the option to teach their own language, and their local history and they stick to the old paradigm, then they have at least made a choice.

Filipinos are ever the copycats are they not? Back in Rizal's time, he had to work hard to counter claims that the Indios are less intelligent than westerners due to their smaller craniums and that our colonization by them was actually doing us a service because we need their guidance; too stupid to choose for themselves. When we had our freedom, one culture was chosen and elevated over others because they are supposed to be magalang and cultured. The barbarians in the other regions of the country had to be Filipinized for the sake of progress. It's really just the repetition of what our colonizers did, though we now call it nationalism.

I know I'm doing what the 'enlightened people' call regionalism. I'd just have to ask, does love exist in a vacuum? How do these 'smart, open-minded, progressive individuals' expect me to love being a Filipino if I'm not allowed to begin with being allowed to love my being a Cebuano? It is my view that a person who cannot love himself cannot begin to love another. How is a traitor to his own heritage a loyalist to another? Where is the integrity? Is the lack of integrity a thing to promote in our country? Is that how our government officials are such exemplary role models for being so corruptible?

kung wala pa ko diri magsigig anhi sa forum ron basin makahunahuna sila na ako ug ikaw isa ra na tao. :D

pareha gyud diay tag hunahuna aning butanga.

we share the same sentiments. i have been saying exactly the same thing in my previous posts.

[Sleepwalker]

Hahay...Too bad...I hope GMA or ABS-CBN would introduce a teleserye about the Philippines during World War II (am more interested about WWII). If people would know and see the re-enactment of what happened during those times, basin mapun-an pa ang atong sense of patriotism.

They can make a hybrid between history and fantasy...Isn't it interesting see an agta (kapre) fighting on the guerilla's side? Or a duwende (dwarfs) giving money to the katipuneros? And to make the series more interesting, it should be starred by Piolo P. or Jericho R., then Bonnel Balingit for the kapre and Dagul/Mahal for the duwende.:nuts::nuts::nuts:

[Sleepwalker]

kung wala pa ko diri magsigig anhi sa forum ron basin makahunahuna sila na ako ug ikaw isa ra na tao. :D

pareha gyud diay tag hunahuna aning butanga.

we share the same sentiments. i have been saying exactly the same thing in my previous posts.

Am with you brother/sister (for @bukid).... :)

[bukid]

^^ :D:D:D murag di lagi ka sigurado kung brother o sister ko. :D:D:D aw, okey ra man pud. i am both. (ay, ambot!) :D:D:D

Glad to hear that, Sir Berns...At last, local histories will be given highlight...:cheer::cheer::cheer:

I wonder why our local movie producers don't give so much attention on making films from our history.

Am interested to see some movies about World War II in the Philippines. Maybe they can make something like Band of Brothers or Pearl Harbor or even the history of our generals. The movies about Gen. Patton and Gen. MacArthur are interesting.

I hope they could make a movie about:

- The Leyte Landing
- The Death March
- The Battle of Bataan (sounds like The Battle of Midway or The Battle of Bulge)

let's not forget the balangiga encounter. the bells are still hostaged by the U.S. they are using it to humiliate us because we killed their fellows.

[habagatcentral1]

Hahay...Too bad...I hope GMA or ABS-CBN would introduce a teleserye about the Philippines during World War II (am more interested about WWII). If people would know and see the re-enactment of what happened during those times, basin mapun-an pa ang atong sense of patriotism.

They can make a hybrid between history and fantasy...Isn't it interesting see an agta (kapre) fighting on the guerilla's side? Or a duwende (dwarfs) giving money to the katipuneros? And to make the series more interesting, it should be starred by Piolo P. or Jericho R., then Bonnel Balingit for the kapre and Dagul/Mahal for the duwende.:nuts::nuts::nuts:

Actually, I was thinking if ABSCBN or GMA would also resort to what Korea is doing (and its popular in Asia and their country) about historionovela....

Using media, it would really add up to our sense of patrimony to our locality and the country as well...All we need is some creative juices extracted from writers on how to make history very entertaining...

But looks like they are in the trend of franchising foreign telenovelas....Basin pag-abot sa panahon, bisan Jang Geum sa GMA i-localize na! :nuts: :lol:

[Sleepwalker]

^^ :D:D:D murag di lagi ka sigurado kung brother o sister ko. :D:D:D aw, okey ra man pud. i am both. (ay, ambot!) :D:D:D



let's not forget the balangiga encounter. the bells are still hostaged by the U.S. they are using it to humiliate us because we killed their fellows.

i am both. (ay, ambot!)..:lol::lol::lol:

Mind to educate me on the Balangiga encounter? Though i am not a historian, but i do like history...And especially WWII... :)

[Sleepwalker]

Actually, I was thinking if ABSCBN or GMA would also resort to what Korea is doing (and its popular in Asia and their country) about historionovela....

Using media, it would really add up to our sense of patrimony to our locality and the country as well...All we need is some creative juices extracted from writers on how to make history very entertaining...

But looks like they are in the trend of franchising foreign telenovelas....Basin pag-abot sa panahon, bisan Jang Geum sa GMA i-localize na! :nuts: :lol:


Hahay!! Sakit gud kaayo paminawon ang reality.

Is there a way that we can send some suggestion to TV stations? Perhaps we could start from our local TV stations.

[habagatcentral1]

Hahay!! Sakit gud kaayo paminawon ang reality.

Is there a way that we can send some suggestion to TV stations? Perhaps we could start from our local TV stations.

Start it with the local languages...local TV even. I was thinking of a local teleserye set in a distant past or not so distant past. Then add up some twist (but not misleading nor misinforming) to the historical plot that would give interest to the watching public.

We do not have to be as rigidly hard as "Bayani" show of ABSCBN before.

[Sleepwalker]

Start it with the local languages...local TV even. I was thinking of a local teleserye set in a distant past or not so distant past. Then add up some twist (but not misleading nor misinforming) to the historical plot that would give interest to the watching public.

We do not have to be as rigidly hard as "Bayani" show of ABSCBN before.

I agree...It's not necessary to make the series purely educational...It's like a flavored history... :)

I hope naa taga media dinhi sa SSC nga maka-forward ani nga topic.

[Igsuonnimo]

Noong last year(November 02,2007) na nasa Banga,Aklan ako at nuong isang beses na nagdasal ako kasama ang Nanay ko, Tiyahin ko, at mga pamangkin sa harap ng puntod ng lolo't lola ko. Habang binabanggit ko ang Our Father ...Hail Mary ...Glory Be prayer ...I Believe in God --sumasagot itong pamangkin ko sa Ingles, Tagalog at sa Akeanon. At kinikilabutan ako kapag nagdadasal sa Akeanon itong mga pamangkin ko.
Ang galing! nagagawang nilang mag-switch from English to Tagalog to Akeanon.

Sabi ko sa Nanay ko na hindi nagkulang ang Lola at Lolo ko sa pagtuturo ng pagdarasal sa mga anak at apo nya kasi pati itong mga pamangkin ko ay magaling sa Ingles-Tagalog-Akeanon.


Ipagpaumanhin nyo ang cross-posting ko ha?



In fact, I prefer speaking in tagalog with many of my non-tagalog, non-cebuano friends rather than using english. English doesn't capture the spirit inherent in most Filipino languages.



Sabi na lang ng Tiyahin ko, "indi ako kaleaubot, ga-litik ro akon nga uleao" nung nagsasalita ako sa Ingles. :)

[Wind Shear]

Hahay!! Sakit gud kaayo paminawon ang reality.

Is there a way that we can send some suggestion to TV stations? Perhaps we could start from our local TV stations.

Or better yet, make a story and look someone from any tv station to conceptualize it. :D

[habagatcentral1]

Or better yet, make a story and look someone from any tv station to conceptualize it. :D
Maayo nga suggestion...We should be doing this in order to foster ourselves with values of history and its lessons...Too bad because people are so pre-occupied with pop drama and the likes...:(

[Hajanlet]

Movie or TV representations are actually considered dangerous ground. History, for me, is a lot of things but objective. Modern historians could try all they want to be objective, but the wealth of their references are by people with their own agenda or perspective. Historical reenactments are more likely to spark arguments than settle them. History has the unfortunate tendency of being how the present prefers to see the past as opposed to how the past really was. Even if you have a truly accurate account, there will be a lot of opposition from people who don't like what they see.

Para dili off topic kay mura na man na nga para sa Heritage thread ang historic movies, another angle for the advantage of using mother tongues is the promotion of local literature. In countries like Australia, UK and the US where my favorite authors hail from, their fame arises from their good storytelling skills and not because they are highly educated. For us, with the exception of the Tagalogs, we need good skills in a second language as well as good storytelling skills. Wala gud ta kahilabalo na kanang tig-baligya ug siomai o mani man gani kay maayo kay na mohimo ug nindot nga istorya, problema lang kay dili siya maayo muIningles o magTinagalog. We just don't take local languages seriously enough to the detriment of our literature. The fact that it is not taught in schools means that there is a very small audience for literature written in a non-Tagalog language. I can read through a 600 page English novel in one sitting. I get headaches trying to read one article in a Cebuano newspaper.

@Icarus-rising: If you think about it, is Filipino any less alien than English to the different culture groups in the country. The following are some actual accounts.

My family owns around 5 hectares of land in Barili here in Cebu. My family goes there every now and then to check up on the land. One time, our little cousin who is around 8 joined the trip, she's one of those English speaking kids. She went and played with the kids there and the parents of the local kids were wondering what language it was she was using. One parent asked, 'Mao na ang Tinagalog?' (Is that what they call Tagalog?)

Another time was when I was on a 13C jeepney to USC-TC. While the jeep was stopping near the Pag-ibig building to wait for commuters, I overheard two people conversing. 'Lahi man ni sila ug sinultian ngari sa? Ang langam sa ato kay mulupad man, sa ila kay gakamang.' (They talk differently here right? What we call birds in our place are ants here.) In a lower voice, the companion said, 'Parehas ra na ngari oi.' (It's actually the same here.) The first speaker, who was obviously a migrant thought that Cebuanos speak a different language. Her remark is a reference to one of the better known differences between Cebuano and Tagalog.

My point with the two stories is that Filipino/Tagalog is hardly the widespread language that ought to be used to bridge the lingual differences in our country. Our lingua franca is a language that a good number of people have never really heard, they just heard of it because of media and government support, but these people associate Tagalog as that language spoken by people living somewhere else. It IS alien to these people.

There is no magic language like some may believe. Filipinos don't have a genetic predisposition to speak Tagalog. Without an education, the Filipinos in other regions have as much understanding of Tagalog as they do with Bahasa, just a sprinkling of a few common words. The hypothetical place where the people don't know English, and thus the need for a common language, is a seriously flawed scenario. Since this common language would also have to be taught and our schools teach English, no place knowing this common language would be ignorant of English. We don't need a Filipino subject, what we really need are classrooms that don't have over 60 to 80 students stuffed into them.

Anyway, all I really want is for the use of the use of mother tongues to improve learning in schools since I've noticed that some people tend to have problems with their language skills, which is unfortunate for those taking courses where language skills are not the focus. It's a little humbling to know that my good performance in school has more to do with how I'm just better in languages than those people who are actually better in their analytical skills, but are not so good in understanding their English textbooks. Look back to a few posts, all I'm asking is that people are given a good foundation on their own language. A conservative goal of having it taught up to 3rd grade to establish basic diction and grammar, though I'd prefer it up to 6th grade. Students should have the benefit of having their lessons explained in their native tongue if the English is a little too complex.

[bukid]

^^ correct! i agree! :okay:

[Mercato]

Movie or TV representations are actually considered dangerous ground. History, for me, is a lot of things but objective. Modern historians could try all they want to be objective, but the wealth of their references are by people with their own agenda or perspective. Historical reenactments are more likely to spark arguments than settle them. History has the unfortunate tendency of being how the present prefers to see the past as opposed to how the past really was. Even if you have a truly accurate account, there will be a lot of opposition from people who don't like what they see.

Para dili off topic kay mura na man na nga para sa Heritage thread ang historic movies, another angle for the advantage of using mother tongues is the promotion of local literature. In countries like Australia, UK and the US where my favorite authors hail from, their fame arises from their good storytelling skills and not because they are highly educated. For us, with the exception of the Tagalogs, we need good skills in a second language as well as good storytelling skills. Wala gud ta kahilabalo na kanang tig-baligya ug siomai o mani man gani kay maayo kay na mohimo ug nindot nga istorya, problema lang kay dili siya maayo muIningles o magTinagalog. We just don't take local languages seriously enough to the detriment of our literature. The fact that it is not taught in schools means that there is a very small audience for literature written in a non-Tagalog language. I can read through a 600 page English novel in one sitting. I get headaches trying to read one article in a Cebuano newspaper.

@Icarus-rising: If you think about it, is Filipino any less alien than English to the different culture groups in the country. The following are some actual accounts.

My family owns around 5 hectares of land in Barili here in Cebu. My family goes there every now and then to check up on the land. One time, our little cousin who is around 8 joined the trip, she's one of those English speaking kids. She went and played with the kids there and the parents of the local kids were wondering what language it was she was using. One parent asked, 'Mao na ang Tinagalog?' (Is that what they call Tagalog?)

Another time was when I was on a 13C jeepney to USC-TC. While the jeep was stopping near the Pag-ibig building to wait for commuters, I overheard two people conversing. 'Lahi man ni sila ug sinultian ngari sa? Ang langam sa ato kay mulupad man, sa ila kay gakamang.' (They talk differently here right? What we call birds in our place are ants here.) In a lower voice, the companion said, 'Parehas ra na ngari oi.' (It's actually the same here.) The first speaker, who was obviously a migrant thought that Cebuanos speak a different language. Her remark is a reference to one of the better known differences between Cebuano and Tagalog.

My point with the two stories is that Filipino/Tagalog is hardly the widespread language that ought to be used to bridge the lingual differences in our country. Our lingua franca is a language that a good number of people have never really heard, they just heard of it because of media and government support, but these people associate Tagalog as that language spoken by people living somewhere else. It IS alien to these people.

There is no magic language like some may believe. Filipinos don't have a genetic predisposition to speak Tagalog. Without an education, the Filipinos in other regions have as much understanding of Tagalog as they do with Bahasa, just a sprinkling of a few common words. The hypothetical place where the people don't know English, and thus the need for a common language, is a seriously flawed scenario. Since this common language would also have to be taught and our schools teach English, no place knowing this common language would be ignorant of English. We don't need a Filipino subject, what we really need are classrooms that don't have over 60 to 80 students stuffed into them.

Anyway, all I really want is for the use of the use of mother tongues to improve learning in schools since I've noticed that some people tend to have problems with their language skills, which is unfortunate for those taking courses where language skills are not the focus. It's a little humbling to know that my good performance in school has more to do with how I'm just better in languages than those people who are actually better in their analytical skills, but are not so good in understanding their English textbooks. Look back to a few posts, all I'm asking is that people are given a good foundation on their own language. A conservative goal of having it taught up to 3rd grade to establish basic diction and grammar, though I'd prefer it up to 6th grade. Students should have the benefit of having their lessons explained in their native tongue if the English is a little too complex.
Wonderful piece!! My hero/ heroine! :banana: :banana: :banana:Diin ka man guikan?
By any chance, is your apellido Cui or Panares? :cheers2:

[Mercato]

In my personal travel..if I know the language by heart, I speak it...if I don't then I resort to "standard" language.



Sorry if I used Bahasa but I was referring to:
Negeri as a state, and Negara as the over-all federation of states or the umbrella state...They used this in Malaysia.

In other words, will federalism be one of the solutions? Boleh lah... interesting, this infatuation of yours with Malay...

Hmmm, I wouldn't really mind a revival of the concept of a United Malay Nation. This idea was in the minds of both Indonesian & Philippine Presidents at that time in the '60s, ironically to abort the formation of the Malayan Federation. Can anyone imagine the awesome power of a united Malayan Maritime Southeast Asia - covering Brunei, Singapore, Indonesia, Malaysia & the Philippines? hmmmmmmm, :|:| no worries, just a thought...

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

Why are Cebuanos denied the right to their cultural heritage? Why is it so hard for some people to understand that this only means that non-Tagalog cultures are second class? One ethnic group has more freedom than others. Their freedom of expression extends to their own language; ours has to be translated to the National one. One culture is raised as the ideal with the others relegated to being flawed cultures that would have to be corrected by injecting them with 'Filipino'.

i'll just add to bai @hajanlet. I don't normally speak Tagalog to people I don't know especially if they talk to me in Tagalog whether they are native-Tagalog speakers or not, I really don't care if they can't understand me because its really not my problem actually. I only speak Tagalog with my cousins and relatives who grew up in manila from time to time but fortunately they know simple Cebuano phrases so basically, I don't have any worries at all and I teach them Cebuano too. Now, I understand why most of my Cebuano brothers here are longing for Cebuano history and culture in schools because we believe that Cebuano history did not stop at a certain point by the time Legazpi transfered to Manila. We don't believe that when Lapu-Lapu and his men outlasted Magellan and his armada during the battle of Mactan and by the time the second wave of Spanish forces landed 40 years later in Cebu, there were no other battles and revolutions that took place in the island. We believe that Cebu was not just an ordinary settlement during the precolonial times but rather its a thriving settlement with all the essentials of a powerful kingdom. If Spain never introduced Manila to Cebu, Cebu could have been an independent nation and Cebuanos would not have learned they were under Manila and was even powerful than them. We all know that Cebuanos were unfriendly to the Spaniards that's why Legazpi transfered to Manila aside from Cebu's lack the resources. Thus it is very fitting to note that Manila was given the title Insigne y siempre leal ciudad because Legazpi and his men could have never faced major resistance by the people. I guess this is where all misunderstandings started. Cebu will forever be independent. Independent in culture and language, and I don't understand people why they can't understand us. Thank you.:)

[Maxxclip]

i can see your heart full of hatred

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

^^
yeah, very unfortunate...:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[mwg12a]

^^^^At Mainstream >>>It's really good that there are people or cebuanos who really believes in promoting the ceubano culture and heritage. If anything, it will help in the progress of the nation, not just in Cebu but the whole Philippines because we are all enriching every corners of our nation. I wouldn't say you have so much hatred, you just have the passion in proving that Cebuanos are passionate and proud of your heritage and you an use this in a possitive way and be a role model for all cebuanos and all the filipino youths or filipinos as a whole.

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

^^
yeah, i adore you brother because you are the only one (except other Cebuano formers here) that i guess can understand what we really want, and that is for our institutions of learning were we grasp knowledge and wisdom that aside from academics we may value our heritage and culture because even me have no idea about anything that took place in Cebu after Legazpi left Cebu. I love history that is way i am like this and being a Cebuano, i feel i am not well informed about my culture and history because i don't even know Leon Kilat, the event that transpired the battle of Tres de Abril, and other Cebuano personalities and events that took place during the Spanish and American eras just because it was never taught in school. and we all want all Cebuanos and the future generations to be proud of our history and culture! Thanks brother.:cheers::cheers::)

[Il Tenore]

Man! I'll give props to you all!!

for me personally, We don't really need Tagalog if we know English.. Besides, I want to learn French and German!:lol:

seriously, all of the points being posted here has a big impact to me... I really want something that can make our culture soar high and be known to the whole world. We deserve recognition to our fellow countrymen and other nationalities around the world..

and who said that English is too alien? I'm sorry but I use English whenever i hear someone speaks in Tagalog... And i can express more in English...;)

[Ang_Bantayanon]

i'll just add to bai @hajanlet. I don't normally speak Tagalog to people I don't know especially if they talk to me in Tagalog whether they are native-Tagalog speakers or not, I really don't care if they can't understand me because its really not my problem actually. I only speak Tagalog with my cousins and relatives who grew up in manila from time to time but fortunately they know simple Cebuano phrases so basically, I don't have any worries at all and I teach them Cebuano too. Now, I understand why most of my Cebuano brothers here are longing for Cebuano history and culture in schools because we believe that Cebuano history did not stop at a certain point by the time Legazpi transfered to Manila. We don't believe that when Lapu-Lapu and his men outlasted Magellan and his armada during the battle of Mactan and by the time the second wave of Spanish forces landed 40 years later in Cebu, there were no other battles and revolutions that took place in the island. We believe that Cebu was not just an ordinary settlement during the precolonial times but rather its a thriving settlement with all the essentials of a powerful kingdom. If Spain never introduced Manila to Cebu, Cebu could have been an independent nation and Cebuanos would not have learned they were under Manila and was even powerful than them. We all know that Cebuanos were unfriendly to the Spaniards that's why Legazpi transfered to Manila aside from Cebu's lack the resources. Thus it is very fitting to note that Manila was given the title Insigne y siempre leal ciudad because Legazpi and his men could have never faced major resistance by the people. I guess this is where all misunderstandings started. Cebu will forever be independent. Independent in culture and language, and I don't understand people why they can't understand us. Thank you.:)

Poor Cebuano. We are always accused of being Tagalog-bashers but the truth is, we are just proud of being Cebuanos. We don't hate all Tagalogs but we just resent those who want to underestimate us. :bash:

[Hajanlet]

@habagatcentral1: Sorry that I jumped on you about that negara thing. At least I learned a new word. My only familiarity with Bahasa came some years back when I watched some shows from a TV station on a Bahasa speaking region. Try flipping through skycable, I think it's still there.

@Mercato: No, I'm not a Penares or Cui. I'm a Rama and, no, I don't live in Basak. Why do you ask by the way? I don't even recall having had classmates with those familynames.

@mAiNsTrEaMhunter: I don't have a problem with speaking Tagalog to Tagalogs, especially when I'm on their turf. My problem is with their arrogance and narcissism. I'll oblige them their Tagalog when they're on a short visit here on Cebu; I start hating them when they've spent years and years here and insist on speaking their language. Hilas na kaayo na. Daghan-daghan pa gud ko ug nailhan nga inunana.

As for my remark on their narcissism. Read around this website. A number of them think they're so enlightened and knowledgeable. I almost feel compelled to hunt down specific quotes; I think they're on the Economics and Development section or was it Infrastructure. You don't have to search very far. In general, a large number of them think of MM as their palace on top of some tall mountain. Or perhaps MM is some ivory tower, the pinnacle of the Philippine dream. The whole Philippines, they presume, is visible from their window and it is from there that they judge the rest of us. If only the whole Philippines were truly visible from that window, it is not. As it is, it's more like they are gazing upon a mirror. Their views are self-serving and inconsiderate to the others, and they are so blissfully unaware.

Back to our language: I asked a friend of mine for some feedback on the idea of promoting Cebuano in our schools to stimulate literature. I was shot down, and he has evidence to prove his point. He has this book, which is a compilation of Cebuano poems and he said that our literature is rather unappealing. I can't help but agree with him, I've read my share of balak and most of them are not very good. On the subject of going so far as to have Cebuano novels and books. None of us knew of any so he extrapolated from Tagalog novels and Filipino written English ones. The forecast is bleak.

For the balak, I think that the problem is because the lack of support for them means that it's not attracting enough talent.

As for the books, it may be a case of us being too westernized to appreciate the local stuff. He only really read Zafra's Twisted series, so his extrapolation into how Cebuano books would be like is not really that good.

[habagatcentral1]

The question: Are we 100% sure that those people in Manila who are referred to as acting arrogant (not only against the Bisayans but the general "promdi") are Tagalogs?

As far as ethnicity of Metro Manila is concerned, it is already a hodge-podge of different ethno-linguistic groups coming from all over the country?

[Hajanlet]

You have a point on that one. I actually find the Pampangeneos and Ilocanos to be more annoying. They tend to be vicious, probably to distract others from the fact that they are also provincials and Bisayans are easy pickings because of the stereotype. To quote my Ilocano classmate: 'Buti na lang ang mga Bisaya, may credit card.' Excuse me, I'm sure Isabela is the pinnacle of urbanity or what not, but there's no call to say such things. What does he think we are?

But people whom I know to be from Manila, Laguna and Cavite do have this self-centric streak. Like they've never heard of the word 'humility'. I guess you can't really blame them, the educational system is largely at fault. Indoctrinating them to think they're so much better. Another reason are our economic planners. There is resentment from local Manileneos, especially the laborers, because Bisayan migrants are competing with them for jobs. Bisayan migrants who wouldn't be there if the countrysides were not neglected.

[habagatcentral1]

I have a theory which was posted in the Tagalog Language Thread which may give some clues on how and why people of urban areas have a "hegemonic" attitude towards the rural peoples or non-Metro Manila urban centers of the country.

Because most of the time, urbanity or high urbanization is always related to advancement in technology, science and lifestyle while rural or rustic environment is associated with laidback and primitive. This maxim may just give some clues on how or why we act as such or they act as such.

Because we may not notice it, but I think we may be also doing what the Manilenyos are doing to us but this is on another level.


---------
By the way, its not that I suppressing your ideas but I think we should be careful with our reference. There are still certain rules needed to be observed here in the forums. Thanks! :)

[flesh_is_weak]

-delete-

i might incite another civil war :lol:

[JoeyIncali]

Unsa naman ni oy? Perti nang taasa.

Ano man ni oy? Laba' na kaayo.
My father is from Bulacan. My mom is from Iloilo. I grew up in Davao ( born in Malaybalay and spent early years there ).
My Tagalog relatives were actually shocked I spoke Tagalog when we visited them during my childhood.
Also, it's kinda funny Manileno's think it's " magulo" in the south. Hell, people get stabbed in Manila like swatted flies.
I love the Tagalog dialect. But, somehow it's being butchered now by the media and actors.
I think formal bisaya should be taught in schools in Visayan-speaking regions.At least 1 subject for a year or so in school.
Joey~Speaks Bisaya and Ilonggo~

[mwg12a]

Man! I'll give props to you all!!

for me personally, We don't really need Tagalog if we know English.. Besides, I want to learn French and German!:lol:

seriously, all of the points being posted here has a big impact to me... I really want something that can make our culture soar high and be known to the whole world. We deserve recognition to our fellow countrymen and other nationalities around the world..

and who said that English is too alien? I'm sorry but I use English whenever i hear someone speaks in Tagalog... And i can express more in English...;)

English is foreign because it's not inherent to the filipinos, it's a language most or the majority learn from school and not inborn with two english native speaker and that you communicate at home in your native tongue. English was just used as a media for communication to the whole world which happens to be native mostly to english people. Spanish is almost the same way although part of the Philippine traditions stems from the spaniards which is mostly based in Catholic religion.

I am really wonder and perhaps amazed , I don't mean this in a mean or bad way , it's just an observation, but, I've noticed that when it comes to languages and other minor things it's mostly the bisayans who would pick english mostly and partly spanish over any native language even of their own, it's like english/spanish first, then second choice would be bisaya and their least would be whatever 3rd language they feel inferior to theirs. I've also noticed that (atleast based from what I have witnessed) It's mostly bisayans who gets culture shocked whenever they would live in another country, it's like to be more americans than the americans, more canadians than the canadians or more french than the french.

[Mercato]

^^ Indeed? Visayans are merely a practical people. We value our own language first, nothin wrong with that. Thence we pick from a bunch of useful international languages for trade, commerce, industry or travel. It is just unfortunate that the one you are rooting for is not included up there in the list of English, Mandarin, Japanese or Spanish. :lol:

You mean we are starry eyed, awestruck compare to you guys when we go overseas? That is another hogwash sweeping generalization and it goes to show how little you northerners really know about southerners. :lol:

[mwg12a]

Poor Cebuano. We are always accused of being Tagalog-bashers but the truth is, we are just proud of being Cebuanos. We don't hate all Tagalogs but we just resent those who want to underestimate us. :bash:

Perhaps it's just you guys who thinks other people especially the tagalogs are looking down on you or underestimating you. Like what has been discussed before, everything are mostly done in the movies, on how they portray certain roles. I've noticed these with my inlaws, sometimes, I would say soemthing and I can see it would offend them but they wouldn't say anything to me. I mean, sometimes it's hard for me to do because I had to walk in steps or tiptoed when I say or crack a joke about something. There are many times that I know I said something innocently especially when I misquoted what they tell me and I can see it in their faces that they felt I was rediculing the way the pronounce or say things.

One good example is, when i first heard them say we will go to a restaurant called "STK" which i guesss it means "shoot to kill" where fresh seafood is picked and they will cook it for you. When I first heard it, I thought they said "STICKY" in english, but, it was actually STK = Es Ti kay, but I heard "Es Ti key" so I assumed it was "Sticky" and when I asked about it, My brother inlaw looked at me with an almost angry face as if I was insulting him or them. They tried to erase that look in their faces simply because it was the first time they met me and talked to me in person since when I married their sister in the US, they were not present and unable to attend the wedding. I did feel bad I asked the question but what can I do? I was not familiar with the word or the restaurant and I was just trying to figure things out around the area and with my new inlaws.

I mean we filipinos doesn't do things like these, even people from another countries sometimes gets a big kick out of how other people from another country pronounce certain words. It's understandable if we as filipinos feel insulted but at the same time, we filipinos do the same thing to others, even the Cebuanos to their fellow bisayans who were from outside cebu. We tend to look down AT FIRST one people who came from distant provinces.

[mwg12a]

^^ Indeed? Visayans are merely a practical people. We value our own language first, nothin wrong with that. Thence we pick from a bunch of useful international languages for trade, commerce, industry or travel. It is just unfortunate that the one you are rooting for is not included up there in the list of English, Mandarin, Japanese or Spanish. :lol:

You mean we are starry eyed, awestruck compare to you guys when we go overseas? That is another hogwash sweeping generalization and it goes to show how little you northerners really know about southerners. :lol:

That's why I said ATLEAST FROM WHAT I HAVE Witnesssed, that is not a generalization. There are bisayas here in SSC and we can pretty much tell who are those well versed and open minded from those who harbor hatred or grudge towards a certain ethnic groups in the Philippines and yes, that also includes the tagalog.

And yes, being practical is being sensible, there is nothing wrong with that.

[Mercato]

@Hajanlet: Sorry, there must've been some crosswires. I never mentioned Basak.

I only read you had roots in Barili and I thought of the 2 families because I am related to both. Thanks...

[mwg12a]

@habagatcentral1:
@mAiNsTrEaMhunter: I don't have a problem with speaking Tagalog to Tagalogs, especially when I'm on their turf. My problem is with their arrogance and narcissism. I'll oblige them their Tagalog when they're on a short visit here on Cebu; I start hating them when they've spent years and years here and insist on speaking their language. Hilas na kaayo na. Daghan-daghan pa gud ko ug nailhan nga inunana.


That's a legitimate and fair claim. You have the right to be apalled if a person lives in your area and has not made an attempt to atleast try and speak some cebuano.

I am also amaze on the fact that if an american lives in the Philippines or Cebu to be especific, we never get offended if they won't try and learn to speak cebuano fluently but when it comes to fellow filipinos? it seems like a moral and ethical crime not to speak cebuano in cebu. What is up with this mentality???

It's really unfair to generalized the tagalogs which is basically pointed at Manila people, first of, Manila is pretty much a melting pot for all migrants from all four corners of the Philippines. I don't think the tagalogs from Batangas or Laguna would be arrogant and would be condescending towards non-tagalogs, even they from Batangas and Laguna sometimes resent Manilenos because they felt Manilenos are snobby and acts superior than them. besides, Why would the bisayans would feel Tagalogs in general are arrogant? the media portray Batangas tagalog as uneducated and trouble makers, the movies portray Ilocano as a mere tobacco wrappers, trouble makers, stupid and very unsophisticated. Inspite of all these, it's mostly Bisaya and seems like mostly from Cebu has these resentments towards how media portrays the bisaya and towards tagalog.

As a matter of fact, as far as I can remember and I think I hate to break this news but, I believe when I was little, Manilenos regards most bisayans as from a lower class part of the society EXCEPT!, Cebuanos and Bacolod, especially the bacolod people because they are known to be mostly well off and that Cebu is also far from being more provincial like but rather city people.

[Ang_Bantayanon]

Perhaps it's just you guys who thinks other people especially the tagalogs are looking down on you or underestimating you. Like what has been discussed before, everything are mostly done in the movies, on how they portray certain roles. I've noticed these with my inlaws, sometimes, I would say soemthing and I can see it would offend them but they wouldn't say anything to me. I mean, sometimes it's hard for me to do because I had to walk in steps or tiptoed when I say or crack a joke about something. There are many times that I know I said something innocently especially when I misquoted what they tell me and I can see it in their faces that they felt I was rediculing the way the pronounce or say things.

One good example is, when i first heard them say we will go to a restaurant called "STK" which i guesss it means "shoot to kill" where fresh seafood is picked and they will cook it for you. When I first heard it, I thought they said "STICKY" in english, but, it was actually STK = Es Ti kay, but I heard "Es Ti key" so I assumed it was "Sticky" and when I asked about it, My brother inlaw looked at me with an almost angry face as if I was insulting him or them. They tried to erase that look in their faces simply because it was the first time they met me and talked to me in person since when I married their sister in the US, they were not present and unable to attend the wedding. I did feel bad I asked the question but what can I do? I was not familiar with the word or the restaurant and I was just trying to figure things out around the area and with my new inlaws.

I mean we filipinos doesn't do things like these, even people from another countries sometimes gets a big kick out of how other people from another country pronounce certain words. It's understandable if we as filipinos feel insulted but at the same time, we filipinos do the same thing to others, even the Cebuanos to their fellow bisayans who were from outside cebu. We tend to look down AT FIRST one people who came from distant provinces.

Are you sure Cebuanos look down on other Bisayans? Have you been interacting with Cebuanos in Cebu? Or have you ever been to Cebu, ey?

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

ah basta kung naay magtinagalog, the mere fact that you are talking to me in tagalog, bahala ka, magsinibuano gyud ko nimo basta naa ka sa cebu and it doesn't mean that i am unfriendly because i find native tagalogs in cebu very considerate na mismo sila nalang ang musabot sa akong gusto ipasabot. They are even willing to learn how to speak cebuano and I was their teacher....:lol::lol::lol::lol:

when i was in manila, i was totally mute and i can only speak there when im with a cebuano. There was one time na nakadungog ko naay nagsinibuano, so nakigamigo ko kay karelate ko niya... the attitude, personality, temperament, etc. its just that you want to be with people you are comfortable with. pero i don't start a conversation when im in manila kay wa lang koy ka-amor2x sa language kay naglisod-lisod lang ko sa akong kinabuhi..maypag matay if pugson magtagalog. :)

[habagatcentral1]

:lol: :lol: :lol: Hehehehe!!!!

Morag kahinumdom ko sa una nga dapat mohatag ko og litanya sa SSC Cebu sa Tops sa last month, pero nevermind na lang wui...kay moabot na ang Christmas, dapat feel good na pod ko og kita tanan....:D

Merry Xmas sa Tanan!!! :nocrook: :D

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

^^
:rofl::rofl:

nganu bai berns gipasibuano ka? :lol::lol::lol:

[Wind Shear]

Perhaps it's just you guys who thinks other people especially the tagalogs are looking down on you or underestimating you. Like what has been discussed before, everything are mostly done in the movies, on how they portray certain roles. I've noticed these with my inlaws, sometimes, I would say soemthing and I can see it would offend them but they wouldn't say anything to me. I mean, sometimes it's hard for me to do because I had to walk in steps or tiptoed when I say or crack a joke about something. There are many times that I know I said something innocently especially when I misquoted what they tell me and I can see it in their faces that they felt I was rediculing the way the pronounce or say things.

One good example is, when i first heard them say we will go to a restaurant called "STK" which i guesss it means "shoot to kill" where fresh seafood is picked and they will cook it for you. When I first heard it, I thought they said "STICKY" in english, but, it was actually STK = Es Ti kay, but I heard "Es Ti key" so I assumed it was "Sticky" and when I asked about it, My brother inlaw looked at me with an almost angry face as if I was insulting him or them. They tried to erase that look in their faces simply because it was the first time they met me and talked to me in person since when I married their sister in the US, they were not present and unable to attend the wedding. I did feel bad I asked the question but what can I do? I was not familiar with the word or the restaurant and I was just trying to figure things out around the area and with my new inlaws.

I mean we filipinos doesn't do things like these, even people from another countries sometimes gets a big kick out of how other people from another country pronounce certain words. It's understandable if we as filipinos feel insulted but at the same time, we filipinos do the same thing to others, even the Cebuanos to their fellow bisayans who were from outside cebu. We tend to look down AT FIRST one people who came from distant provinces.

I will tell you why most Cebuanos are more comfortable in speaking English than Tagalog.

It's because English comes first before Tagalog (then Pilipino), chronologically.



^^
:rofl::rofl:

nganu bai berns gipasibuano ka? :lol::lol::lol:

Err, do I have to tell the story? I was also there. :lol: :lol:

[Wind Shear]

Breaktime sa!




The 10 common expressions in Cebuano

1. Pag-chur oi! - expression of disbelief
2. Pag-ruhc oi! - same meaning as no. 1 but the first word is anagram.
3. Yamat ra! - damn
4. Pagkatuytoy! - don't know when to express it
5. Pagkachuychoy! - pinaligyas nga "Pagkatuytoy!"
6. Porbida! - damn
7. Kanahan - fool
8. Karaho - idiot
9. Giatay - it means a disease for chickens. Word of caution: never say the word to the public since it is considered as an expletive.
10. Giahak - gross

[Maxxclip]

Breaktime sa!




The 10 common expressions in Cebuano

1. Pag-chur oi! - expression of disbelief
2. Pag-ruhc oi! - same meaning as no. 1 but the first word is anagram.
3. Yamat ra! - damn
4. Pagkatuytoy! - don't know when to express it
5. Pagkachuychoy! - pinaligyas nga "Pagkatuytoy!"
6. Porbida! - damn
7. Kanahan - fool
8. Karaho - idiot
9. Giatay - it means a disease for chickens. Word of caution: never say the word to the public since it is considered as an expletive.
10. Giahak - gross


hindi ito nalalayo sa tagalog word na "katangahan"

[habagatcentral1]

^^
:rofl::rofl:

nganu bai berns gipasibuano ka? :lol::lol::lol:

Hahaha!! I already know how to speak Cebuano aside from Hiligaynon, Kinaray-a and Tagalog.

Basta....kahibaw na ang SSC Cebu ana last month.....instead, nahubog sa katugnaw sa Tops....:lol:

And anyway, mas lingaw na lang moistorya about developments and culture rather than thinking of heavier things in life. :lol: :D

[Wind Shear]

Land Forms in Cebuano language

1. mountain - bukid
2. mountain range - kabukiran
3. hill - bungtod
4. plains - kapatagan
5. canyon - dal-og, dalama
6. ravine - kimba
7. ridge - tagudtod
8. island - pulo
9. cliff - ili, pangpang
10. sandbar - pasil
11. volcano - bulkan
12. beach - baybay
13. coast - kabaybayonan
14. valley - walog, wawog
15. mound - bundo, bungtod, pungtod, puntod, undok
16. peninsula - dawis
17. archipelago - kapupud-an
18. cave - langob, lungib
19. isthmus - hitos

Water Forms in Cebuano language

1. ocean - kadagatan, lawod
2. sea - dagat
3. bay - bahiya, luok
4. lake - danaw, linaw
5. spring - tubod
6. pond - lim-aw
7. waterfall - busay
8. river - suba
9. brook - sapa
10. cove - bukana
11. marsh - lamak, kalamakan
12. coral reef - bahura

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

^^
nice one bai...:cheers:

[Hajanlet]

I'd have to ask when something is called a beach and when it is a coast. Abi nako og kahibalo ko, baybayon ra man ang tawag nako ana nila. Kasabot ko sa baybayon ug kabaybayonan, karon pa ko nga baybay ra ang tawag.

@Maxxclip: You don't have to relate the word 'kanahan' to 'katangahan'. There is a Cebuano word 'tanga'. The pronunciation is different, but the meaning is the same to the 'tanga' word that you may be familiar with. It would be interesting to know if it is a loanword; from Tagalog to Cebuano or the other way around. It could also be a common word between the languages just like the words mata, sakit, and so on.

@habagatcentral1: I'd just have to ask what you mean by references. If you are referring to how some of my remarks are, upon review, something like 'flame-bait', then I thank you for the warning. I'd rather not be somehow responsible should the moderators find it necessary to lock this thread.

If you're serious about actual references, let me clarify that I'm just expressing my opinions and hold no pretense that my statements are facts. The things I've mentioned are anecdotal, it's not like I've gone around quoting any statistics. My posts originate from my own personal experience; my insights and conclusions come from my subjective point of view. Anyway, if you think you have information from a peer-reviewed source, then you are more than welcome to correct me. I will look upon it as a learning experience.

Feel free to quote whatever statements I've made that you think are either disturbing or disruptive. I am willing to hear you out, and clarify whatever needs to be clarified. I am a strong believer on how we may have the right to express our opinions, but it is also our duty to keep things civil. I may disagree with people, but I always strive to not be disagreeable.

About how Cebuanos may also be discriminating against other Bisayans, I am aware of some cases though I haven't witnessed such things for some years now. I disapproved of such things and count it a step forward that they don't seem to be here anymore. There were those 'stories' about Boholanos; no, it's not those about 'ha' and 'ja'. Essentially, they were 'jokes' based on the perception that Boholanos were naive, uncultured and backwards. The stories disappeared, I think, because of the frequent cultural exchanges between the islands. It's easy to find a Cebuano who has visited Bohol or vice versa.

All-in-all, I think that the difference in the kind of discrimination that may exist between Cebuanos and the rest of VisMin to the kind of discrimination that 'may' exist between MM and the rest of the Philippines has to do with how VisMin, at least the Christian areas since that is the only one I'm familiar with, have close cultural ties. I have relatives all over Mindanao and they are not estranged to Cebuano culture because it's very similar to their own; they visit us, we visit them, there is cultural exchange. Compare this to a provincial moving to MM, the descendants of the migrants become estranged to their home provinces because of cultural differences. Just look at language alone, those descendants are no longer able to even properly communicate with their provincial relatives. Couple this with how urban folk tend to look down on rural folk and we end up with cultural exchanges that are not as brisk as we have here in VisMin. As a disclaimer, this is just my perspective. I heard that the case is not the same for provinces in Luzon, I guess they are more similar to the culture in MM.

@Mercato: I guess I was wrong to expect a rather common follow up question relating to my familyname. No, there were no crossed wires. Most Cebuanos tend to be familiar with the Rama's in Basak, Pardo. Sorry if I made you think that there was some sort of misunderstanding.

________________________________________________________________________

Given how my post a few days back was about increasing the role of mother tongues in education, I'm wondering as to just how proficient should our children be in their Cebuano. I posted a conservative goal of up to 3rd grade, is that enough? Just how much could we expect them to know by then?

There was mention for the inclusion of local history by some posters and I really like the idea. I recall how I wasn't really able to connect with the Heritage sites I visited when we had our field trips. Except for Lapu Lapu, they were not included in our lessons. The quick trivia supplied by the guides were woefully insufficient. Dili pa gud ta ka tarong ug dungog kay daghan kaayo ug kuyog nya saba.

Imagine just how much more meaningful a short stroll through our city's streets would be given thorough knowledge of our local history. History is one of those subjects where you really need to have a connection, it's reputation for being a bore has to do with how it dwells on events that occurred in distant places on distant times. An introduction to history from a local stand-point should allow students to also understand the significance of events even when they are now on distant places.

[habagatcentral1]

@habagatcentral1: I'd just have to ask what you mean by references. If you are referring to how some of my remarks are, upon review, something like 'flame-bait', then I thank you for the warning. I'd rather not be somehow responsible should the moderators find it necessary to lock this thread.
Trust me, they won't lock this thread. ;)

If you're serious about actual references, let me clarify that I'm just expressing my opinions and hold no pretense that my statements are facts. The things I've mentioned are anecdotal, it's not like I've gone around quoting any statistics. My posts originate from my own personal experience; my insights and conclusions come from my subjective point of view. Anyway, if you think you have information from a peer-reviewed source, then you are more than welcome to correct me. I will look upon it as a learning experience.

Yeah, no worries. We are free to express things here in the forums, its just that we also have to tone down a bit of references because of several forumers here don't think the same as ours and might see this as a flame bait. Anyway, we have moderators to judge what is right and what is wrong.


About how Cebuanos may also be discriminating against other Bisayans, I am aware of some cases though I haven't witnessed such things for some years now. I disapproved of such things and count it a step forward that they don't seem to be here anymore. There were those 'stories' about Boholanos; no, it's not those about 'ha' and 'ja'. Essentially, they were 'jokes' based on the perception that Boholanos were naive, uncultured and backwards. The stories disappeared, I think, because of the frequent cultural exchanges between the islands. It's easy to find a Cebuano who has visited Bohol or vice versa.

I still hear a lot of this in the city streets especially when they are referring to maids; one particular lad say "Cebuanos are maids for Manila?! They are Boholoanos in fact" and some similar statements about it, especially some several younger generation. I even heard from one prominent Cebuana that indeed at some point, "Cebuanos are also becoming arrogant in a way." But the good thing though is that they are not that blantantly discriminating unlike the MNL-CEB affairs.

In this juncture, I would also relate this on our perspective before, especaially of that of our people in Western Visayas. In the days of the climax of sugar industry, we Ilonggos tend to be superior, flaunt the richness of the sugar industry and the "Ang Kwarta Guinapiko Ginapala" prevailed. Therefore the (in)famous term tikalon or hambugero came to be. Cebuanos referred this to us and Ilonggos referred to these people as udong which is somewhat derogatory. Cebuanos work in the haciendas as sacadas. Not only the Cebuanos were of the victim of stereotyping but other rural Ilonggos as well as other Panayanons. Those who speak Kinaray-a are backward and countryside peoples and work with the hacienda....This kind of attitude is somewhat still prevalent in Bacolod and some areas of Negros where sugar industry and contact with Cebuanos are much closer than those of the Panayanons who morely associate themselves with Iloilo, Manila and southcentral Mindanao. That is why Central Visayas and Western Visayas acts as somewhat independent with each other.

Again, the behaviour may be an effect of the urban core-rural relationships. Urbanity or urbanism may have created some effects of the city-dwellers against those living in lesser cities or rural areas, just like the relation of the people of poblaciones to the people living in the hinterlands. Economics, technology, lifestyle and education seems to affect also the way we think and act as an individual. Given the social norms of an urban city and a rural countryside, there may be some differences with it and along with that would be possible discrimination or stereotyping.

Just think if Cebu be the capital of the country since the Spanish times, then there is a strong possibility that Cebuano has the right accent for Filipino and The Philippines. This is just my assumption though.

In the case of Mindanao, the Kristyanos are united as one against the Moros. There is no such thing as Cebuano, Ilonggo, Tagalog, Kapampangan, Ilokano, Waray and such in southcentral Mindanao (Cotabato) as they are united and differences have settled. Now, marginalization felt by the Moros in Mindanao has triggered them to rebel against the Philippines and Kristyano group. Same thoughts about Kristyano being hambog and always right (and in some cases, an infidel) and Moros being backward and primitive prevailed the mentality of some of our brothers and sisters at Mindanao.


Imagine just how much more meaningful a short stroll through our city's streets would be given thorough knowledge of our local history. History is one of those subjects where you really need to have a connection, it's reputation for being a bore has to do with how it dwells on events that occurred in distant places on distant times. An introduction to history from a local stand-point should allow students to also understand the significance of events even when they are now on distant places.

I encourage my students (nga morag walay labot sa una sa kalibutana) before that they should see the unseen Cebu. Most of them are Cebuanos and they usually go to Colon just to see the usual stuff...what if we add up some historical perspective on that? They'll be given this shock and awe effect on them that would make themselves proud of their roots. Indeed, local history should be thought also in formative years (elementary and high school) of children and I have to agree on that.


-----------------------------------------
I may be not Cebuano nor I am not that quite supportive of English as lingua franca because I have seen some language barriers between groups and seemingly English (as of this moment) is the language for those who are educated or at least educated. But what about the other peoples who do not understand this foreign language?

I for one is not for imposition of someone's values over the another, but of understanding each other. Call me too idealistic but I think there should be a language that would be very "Filipino" and not of a western tongue. Ask why Cebuanos speak Cebuano and why Tagalog speaks Tagalog? Because they wanted to express themselves.

I for one would disregard stereotyping although I would be a hypocrite if I didn't confess that I have my idiosyncracies too. For me, respect with ones culture and respect to the individual and the society would be more appropriate in order to think the right way. Kay sakit na kaayo sa dughan kon sige pa ta huna-huna sa kalisud sa kalibutan og mga spoils sa society.


Anyway, this debate would be as old as the debates of the religion. Like what Thomas Kuhn said, "social sciences is always pre-paradigmatic." Different schools of thought although may be agreed upon but perspectives are still there.

[mwg12a]

Are you sure Cebuanos look down on other Bisayans? Have you been interacting with Cebuanos in Cebu? Or have you ever been to Cebu, ey?

Yes, I have been and we had discussions about these in another bisayan thread or perhaps here itself in Part 1 of the discussions.

It doesn't mean that I'm generalizing that fact but it also happens somehow, Cebuanos can look down on some tagalog as well because they are apprehensive about the tagalog attitude towards the bisaya folks as much as some tagalog looks down on people outside Manila or the newbies in Manila from distant provinces.

[mwg12a]

I will tell you why most Cebuanos are more comfortable in speaking English than Tagalog.

It's because English comes first before Tagalog (then Pilipino), chronologically.





Err, do I have to tell the story? I was also there. :lol: :lol:

When did it happen that the english language came first? The Philippine Independence came about the same day as the whole country... If that came to Cebu first then since we all share the same history, it should have been the same effect as to the rest of the country. We filipinos are generally infatuated with anything american most specially so, I see why there are many filipinos have a big preference on english. Colonial mentality is really there and that is a fact, tagalogs are not even exempted with all these...

[habagatcentral1]

Cotabato City, Philippines.

Having so much ethno-linguistic groups interacting each other in this city, Kristayno groups, Moro groups and some Lumad groups... It was the gateway of the Christian settlers in Central Mindanao during the 1950's. The city and economic hub of the newfound colony of the Kristyano groups from Luzon and Visayas. The city's populace has displaced its native tongue Maguindanaoan and Iranun and guess what's the lingua franca here?

In other areas/towns of Cotabato, the most dominant ethno-linguistic group would always be the lingua franca of the said community with a hybrid of other words from other ethno-linguistic groups...This may explain the "Bisaya" difference from native "Cebuano" language.

[Wind Shear]

When did it happen that the english language came first? The Philippine Independence came about the same day as the whole country... If that came to Cebu first then since we all share the same history, it should have been the same effect as to the rest of the country. We filipinos are generally infatuated with anything american most specially so, I see why there are many filipinos have a big preference on english. Colonial mentality is really there and that is a fact, tagalogs are not even exempted with all these...

The point is this:

In 1900s, the Tagalog language is never heard of in Cebu (save for illustrados and merchants from Manila) to the masses until the introduction of Pilipino by Marcos fully in 1970s. In fact, in early 20th century in Cebu, the literature was written in Spanish, English, and Cebuano.

And please, speaking (and even preferring) English does not make me less Filipino. Filipino is just a citizenship, AND NOTHING ELSE. So much for the nationalism... :dunno:

[Wind Shear]

And now for the English-Cebuano dictionary. :D

Street Scenes

1. building - bilding, dakbalay
2. house - balay
3. store - baligyaan, tindahan
4. hotel - abtanan, hotel
5. car - kotse
6. post - haligi, tagdok
7. park - parke, suroyanan
8. church - iglesya, simbanan
9. chapel - kapilya
10. garden - hardin, tanaman
11. billboard - bilbord, karatula
12. worker - magbubuhat, maggagama, mamumuo, trabahador
13. office - buhatan, opisina, katungdanan
14. factory - gam-anan, pabrika
15. employee - empleyado, kawani, sinuholan, trabahante
16. road - dalan, kalsada, karsada
17. street - dala, kalyi
18. gutter - kanal, sandayong
19. student - estudyante, magtutuon, tinun-an
20. teacher - maestra, maestro, titser, magtutudlo
21. school - eskuwelahan, saringanan, tunghaan

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

Just think if Cebu be the capital of the country since the Spanish times, then there is a strong possibility that Cebuano has the right accent for Filipino and The Philippines. This is just my assumption though.

yeah i agree though. but because we are in this 21st century, we might change it knowing the fact that people in major ethnic groups will have access to education and urbanization.

I for one is not for imposition of someone's values over the another, but of understanding each other. Call me too idealistic but I think there should be a language that would be very "Filipino" and not of a western tongue. Ask why Cebuanos speak Cebuano and why Tagalog speaks Tagalog? Because they wanted to express themselves.

take example the Central and South American countries, we know these countries also has a lot of native American/Indian languages but they rather speak Spanish. I was told that why Spanish was abolished in this country its because our ultra nationalist language experts believe that its a language that reminds us of oppression, cultural discrimination and alienation of our deep cultural heritage. but to think about it, I don't think the Americas actually were glad about Spanish oppression why they chose Spanish as their lengua franca and to think that Spanish oppression in the Americas was even harsher than our ancestors probably experienced before. i don't think they ever taught it that way. I don't think that if we speak western/Spanish we alienate ourselves with our beloved cultures and traditions. If you look at the Americas, esp. Mexico and Peru, both these countries have historic sites of the Aztecs, Mayas and the Incas but do the Mexicans and Peruvians abandoned their native cultures just because they speak a language different from their native cultures? they are even proud of these cultures and even praise the native temples and the rich civilizations they all once had. even language for instance, their native languages is still spoken predominantly in the region like the Guarani, Aymara, Quechua and other native languages turned Spanish creole languages. These countries and their governments did not create a language base from their native languages for their respective countries just to preserve culture and language but instead they used Spanish because its a way for them to interact with their differences as a nation and also to their borders that were also Spanish colonies. Mexico and Peru or any other country in the Americas for that matter could have used native languages if they were very ULTRA-NATIONALISTS people. I believe that the sympathy towards one another as former Spanish wards is the reason why Spanish is prevalent in the region not because they like to abandon themselves with their native cultures but rather they want to be a part of the big family. But look at our government, it is trying to create a language out from our existing languages and unfortunately favoring one ethnic language to use as the basis and the standard of this very diverse and ethnocentric nation we have. :)

and I ask this question, could the Philippines be a Spanish speaking country if we were rather placed in central or south America? I doubt it because we are very ultra-nationalist! We are being told by the famous adage that too much or too less of the things is not good to oneself.

[habagatcentral1]

^^ Have you thought of the Bahasa's origins as well? It has its roots about nationalism...

Americans on the other hand have thought us education and speak English. Yes they did that but within that almost 50 years of occupation, the Filipinos have wanted independence...anyway Americans already indoctrinated us so why the physical occupation? :D

And lawmakers in the Philippine Assembly during that time were collaborators to the colonialists and at the same time "nationalists." Why don't we ask why Quezon made such move to make Tagalog as "Filipino" and why didn't Osmena rebuked this idea when he assumed presidency? I know for one that Cebuano lawmakers are the ones who are opposing the said mandate that Tagalog be the basis for Pilipino.

Again, I hope you would also ask what is the lingua franca of Cotabato City and why?

For me I am just to understand and respect cultures. If I find myself oppressed by other ethno-linguistic groups, I wouldn't just mind them...heck! They are also human beings like us.

And finally, this is on my personal opinion that I would rather put this "oppressed" attitude towards positive note...if they say "Bisaya ka? Ay, katulong!", I would say, "So? At least industrious kami!" or wouldn't mind them at all. I'll just do my job well and my actions good so that I could earn respect and still proud to say, "I am Bisaya!"

Cebu's economic growth is a silent manifestation of what "Dodongs and Indays" can do to become one of the country's most important economic powerhouse. They just do their work and now look at her....a shock and awe to anyone who have this kind of idiosyncrasy...which later these people may change their attitude towards the Bisaya people from discriminating to favorable. ;)

Language is for communication and for understanding, that its its main objective and reason for existence. Culture is one of its products or the matrix of the culture itself.

[habagatcentral1]

and I ask this question, could the Philippines be a Spanish speaking country if we were rather placed in central or south America? I doubt it because we are very ultra-nationalist! We are being told by the famous adage that too much or too less of the things is not good to oneself.

I don't think so. ;)

If we were close to Mexico or Latin America then we would have spoken Spanish anyway. One of the reasons why we can't fluently speak Spanish is because we are far too distant from Mexico and most especially Spain. There was a royal decree that Spanish be taught to the native Americans or the colonized, it did happened in the Latin America but never happened here in Pilipinas...one reason was the difficulty in part of the Spanish friars (who outnumber seculars in the early days of colonization). Because of the distance, they don't have to worry about offending the said decree and instead learned how to speak the vernacular which became easier for them to propagate Catholicism under vernacular tongue...

So I think the famous "Blame It to the friars!" quote is appropriate here, hehe!! :D

Filipino Nationalism is not Tagalog per se. Filipino Nationalism is not of Tagalog Imperialism and most especially not the monopoly of Manila...;)

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

Again, I hope you would also ask what is the lingua franca of Cotabato City and why?

sige bai berns, tell me about Cotabato City..:cheers:

but regarding about what you said about Spanish that never was highly promulgated in this country, diba Spanish was already taught in schools after colonization and correct me if I'm wrong, i guess even before Quezon pronounced Tagalog as the national language Spanish was already in schools. My older relatives and even my mother had Spanish before when they took up college and they until now speak fluently even though the influence is weak already. She told me it was Pres. Ferdinand Marcos who abolished it. I guess if it was not abolished, Spanish could have been promulgated by now compared to what was not highly promulgated before. :)

[habagatcentral1]

sige bai berns, tell me about Cotabato City..:cheers:

Lingua franca of Cotabato City is.....Filipino (or for some, Tagalog)...the only city in Mindanao that speak such lingua franca.

The ethnicity of this city, being the prime hub of the Kristyano immigrants from Luzon and Visayas and as a center for trade and economy of Central Mindanao, it became so homogenic, so mixed up, that it lost its native language Maguindanaoan (now restricted to Maguindanaoan Moros themselves) and made Filipino as the official language of business transactions.

Just imagine, Cebuanos, Ilonggos, Warays, Kapampangans, Ilocanos, Tagalogs, some Bikolanos, Maguindanaoan, Maranao, Iranun, Tausug, Sama, Tiduray, B'laan and others making this as a hub. In the 1950's Christian settlers have already marginalized the Moro native residents of the city so fast that they cannot adapt Maguindanaoan as a lingua franca and instead imposed Filipino because not all immigrants belong to one island region.

But in the case of countryside Cotabato, it depends on who is the majority in one town or barangay. For example, there are more Boholano, Cebuano immigrants in Kidapawan than Ilonggos and Ilokanos, therefore the lesser ethno-linguistic group adapts to the majority. The same scenario in Koronadal City (Marbel) where Ilonggos dominate others in numbers.

Because of the vast number of peoples in Cotabato-Soccsksargen (South Cotabato, Cotabato, Sultan Kudarat, Sarangani, General Santos) TV Patrol Soccsksargen has to deliver news in Filipino rather in Bisaya which is the vernacular of their operations in General Santos City.

Not all people can speak Bisaya, and so are the other western tongue, especially the Lumad.

Its not that I am trying to impose Tagalog here, but its just the matter of communication that is practicaly needed. Anyway, there is no law prohibiting the speech of vernacular language, so we are free to speak our very own. We could not blame nationalism as the tool of oppressing ethno-linguistic groups because it can be utilized not just by Tagalogs but others as well.

For me, I just have to set aside pride and feeling of opression in which I would prefer to channel this into positive and progressive energies so that I could garner respect from the people. :) That is my beinte pesos worth. :2cents:

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

^^

mao sad pero we can't please other people, even me, tagalog don't please me too. IMO, if ang Spanish wala pa gi-abolish before no one will blame tagalog/filipino for being dominating and they'd rather speak spanish instead of english because IMO there is less to discriminate in spanish than english given the fact that we have adapted ñ well. I don't think the chavacanos are being discriminated for speaking a spanish-based creole language because filipinos have the perception that spanish is nice to hear which is very true actually...:):cheers:

[habagatcentral1]

^^ Well...not all of them bro have the same mindset of discriminating peoples. At least you should try convincing them not by words but by your actions....then they may just be surprised on your success. :okay: They may change their attitude.

Kadyot sa, magmarinate pa ko kay mag-sugba pa ko panihapon. :D

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

Kadyot sa, magmarinate pa ko kay mag-sugba pa ko panihapon. :D


wow, kalami! too early lagi bai berns....:cheers:

[habagatcentral1]

wow, kalami! too early lagi bai berns....:cheers:

Kay momoarinate pa usa...mas lami if iprepare na nako nga daan para unya pagsugba, ang sabor makasulod sa karne. :D

[mwg12a]

The point is this:

In 1900s, the Tagalog language is never heard of in Cebu (save for illustrados and merchants from Manila) to the masses until the introduction of Pilipino by Marcos fully in 1970s. In fact, in early 20th century in Cebu, the literature was written in Spanish, English, and Cebuano.

And please, speaking (and even preferring) English does not make me less Filipino. Filipino is just a citizenship, AND NOTHING ELSE. So much for the nationalism... :dunno:

Ofcourse it will not make any filipinos less of a filipino if we speak english, nobody is denying that. The problem is when we promote english to be the national language or the language of unity. Just like what I have mentioned before and in another thread, there are Cebuanos who are claiming that many bisaya started to speak in tagalog more than bisaya, that there is a possibility of the bisaya people would be losing their identity and language. IF we replace tagalog or any native filipino languages, just like what is happening in tagalog, the english will replace all our native languages because the people would prefer to communicate in english to one another so this will lead to instiction of all of our mother tongue, if tagalog is doing it to most non-tagalog speaker. Do we think that the english language would not do this to us? So yes, the resolution is to have all the regional languages be taught in their respective regions or disctrict so we could preserve our own culture, identity and the languages. Tagalog is not meant to replace all our native languages and should not be allowed to let our other native languages into instinction. There is no law in the Philippine constitution in banning the use of all other regional languages in the Philippines to be spoken at home and the street right?

[icarusrising]

The point is this:

In 1900s, the Tagalog language is never heard of in Cebu (save for illustrados and merchants from Manila) to the masses until the introduction of Pilipino by Marcos fully in 1970s. In fact, in early 20th century in Cebu, the literature was written in Spanish, English, and Cebuano.

And please, speaking (and even preferring) English does not make me less Filipino. Filipino is just a citizenship, AND NOTHING ELSE. So much for the nationalism... :dunno:

I don't like the sound of those words in bold. :ohno:

My brother-in-law who's not even remotely Filipino prides himself for having known the Filipino people and their ways. Our respect for the elderly, innate sensitivity to the feelings of others, and intensity of our faith among others are what he said as hallmarks of the Filipinos. It's not just a citizenship. Whether one is from Manila, Cebu, Davao, Iloilo... there is something that unites us all.

[Hajanlet]

I think the root of the problem is that, why did our politicians have to play with language? They should have stuck with economic planning. If development was less lopsided, we won't be having urban centers where the locals are a majority of a certain culture group. The way it is now is that people migrating into MM become Tagalog; people migrating into Cebu become Cebuano. The environment is not conducive to creating the kind of melting pot that would result in a true lingua franca.

The ideal of an amalgam of Philippine languages as the lingua franca is only viable if the migration is balanced; there being as many provincials migrating to MM as there are people from MM migrating into the provinces. In more general terms, balanced migration between any two provinces.

@mwg12a: English as the language of unity seems to work well enough when our country communicates with the world at large. The way some people argue for the need for Filipino/Tagalog to unify the country sounds more like them being threatened by how English is so influential. I mean, it's not like we are the only ones being influenced by English. I tried learning Japanese a few years back and even the people that some nationalists tout as an example of how we don't have to learn English to succeed have a good number of loanwords originating from English.

The fact of the matter is that the US is a superpower, you could ban English in our schools and we'd still be influenced by them. If you don't like that, our only real option is to also become a superpower; I'm not really sure if it is possible within our lifetimes. Right now, it is in my opinion that, should a nuke level Metro Manila, there would be countries out there who would be unaffected. Contrast this to what happened on Sept. 11, two planes crashed on two buildings; the world has been different ever since.

[Il Tenore]

The point is this:

In 1900s, the Tagalog language is never heard of in Cebu (save for illustrados and merchants from Manila) to the masses until the introduction of Pilipino by Marcos fully in 1970s. In fact, in early 20th century in Cebu, the literature was written in Spanish, English, and Cebuano.

And please, speaking (and even preferring) English does not make me less Filipino. Filipino is just a citizenship, AND NOTHING ELSE. So much for the nationalism... :dunno:

hwow!:)

I mean, Filipino can be just like a citizenship.. but as a language, we don't really need what language should be based in as we Filipinos, do love our native language and we're proud of it..

all major language must represent and must spread around the world!:)

[Wind Shear]

I don't like the sound of those words in bold. :ohno:

You may never like it, but I hope you respect my opinion.

[mwg12a]

^^^^^^@Hajanlet >>That is not the point Hajanlet. I am not suggesting to leave out the english language at all, it is already our secondary language and is being used in most business transaction although only a portion of the filipinos do speak english at home with their siblings and parents, the majority doesn't. Communicating with the whole world as part of globalization is whole different ball game and it comes hand in hand with progress atleast in the case of the Philippines since our biggest export is "manpower" and not electronics , automobiles and such like what Korea, Japan and China has. What I was pointing out is that, it will lead to extinction OF ALL OUR NATIVE LANGUAGES AND DIALECTS if we uplift ENGLISH as a national language just to have unity.


There are already claimed that tagalog is slowly threatening the proliferation of all the native languages in the Philippines since most of the youths started to speak tagalog. Especially, taglish which is being picked up from the moviestars or the so called "well to do" class in the society.

I feel that even if we replace our national language or use english as a "language for unitty" we will not achieve the so called UNITY that we are hoping to achieve. Why? The filipinos would still carry the same resentment towards one another. Another is that since we claim that let's say "for instance" the tagalogs are mocking the bisaya with the manner they speak or be portrayed, the english language would not change that since the bisayan would have the bisayan accent when speaking english and the tagalogs would be talking in english with a tagalog accent and it is still inevitable for us to critisize one another... it seems that it's in our nature to critisize one another and as long this does not change... Whatever language we use, there would never be unity amongst us. The only way is to learn and understand our roots, let other filipino languages get their share of fairness by allowing the regional languages and culture be taught in schools according to their region or districts.

Bukid once suggested to remove national language and designate let's say tagalog as an official language, while english as the official secondary language for business and trade. Then all regional languages be taught in their respective schools or districts. I think that is really very sensible.

[Mercato]

^^^^ Are you talkin to Haj or to Wind or to Tenore? :lol:
, and intensity of our faith among others are what he said as hallmarks of the Filipinos. It's not just a citizenship. Whether one is from Manila, Cebu, Davao, Iloilo... there is something that unites us all. I can only think of the Hispanic element in the culture which unites us, what else is there... Without it, we are better off forging our own individual paths as separate nations... IMO Tagalog did not bind us as one Filipino nation before 1946... it was unheard of in these parts back then :):):)

[Mercato]

:lol::lol: Mga higala! @Hajanlet @ Windshear ug @MainstreamHunter
Kun magpundok ta’ang upat unya magama ta’ag string quartet para magsipok ni’ng u’o sa mga higala nato? Ang akong suhestiyon nga nga’an nato mao kini: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Ka’ay bai Haj, wa’a ka ba diay makadiparal sa lawom nga palabtik o bien pagbiaybiay ni kiyampaw? Kato ba’ang naghisgot ug canahan apan unya diay ang laglom nga pasabot mao nga ang gitumong kamo mang tulo? Porbida ngilngig pod ni’ig kalaki ang atong higala maantigo kaayo ug mga pamaaging pagdunggab sa bukobuko. :lol:

Ang akong gusto ako ang Pale Rider. Si Tenore di na kinahanglan kay naa na man siya'y magic silhig.
http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo332/mercato2008/Mex%20Day%203/Rest%20of%20the%20City/Four4.jpg http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo332/mercato2008/Mex%20Day%203/Rest%20of%20the%20City/Four3.jpg http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo332/mercato2008/Mex%20Day%203/Rest%20of%20the%20City/Four2.jpg http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo332/mercato2008/Mex%20Day%203/Rest%20of%20the%20City/Four1.jpg
:lol:.......... wala lang :D:D:D

[bariQ]

lahi diay ang bisaya ug cebuano? diba preha raman na sila

[habagatcentral1]

^^ In a way its different...well, quite but its based in Cebuano/Boholano with mixed elements of other ethno-linguistic groups. Like Filipino is based in Tagalog. :D Some Bisaya people would stare blankly as one Cebuano speak some deep words, more like a Manilenyo would react if they encounter someone from the deep Tagalog southern provinces.

In a way, Bisaya became also a lingua franca in Central Visayas, some parts of Western and Eastern Visayas and majority of Mindanao or the language of the south. Much like Filipino is being seen here by some as "language of the north." Like Filipino, it has also become hegemonic because of the origins of the majority of the Christian migrants who settled in Mindanao, and thus marginalizing the Moro and Lumad languages in return.

For example, the Bisaya of Cagayan de Oro, Bisaya of Davao, Bisaya of General Santos is pretty much different from each other...more like varieties or dialects of Bisaya. CDO people say "tsada" while Davao people often mix Tagalog with their Bisaya while Gensan speaks a hybrid of Cebuano and Ilonggo.

[Sleepwalker]

Basta ako, Bisdak United...Maski unsa pa na nga klase sa bisaya, luksong dugo dayon.

[mwg12a]

^^^^ Are you talkin to Haj or to Wind or to Tenore? :lol:
I can only think of the Hispanic element in the culture which unites us, what else is there... Without it, we are better off forging our own individual paths as separate nations... IMO Tagalog did not bind us as one Filipino nation before 1946... it was unheard of in these parts back then :):):)

Just whoever responded on my comments pretty much.

Bind us in what way you mean? I don't think tagalogs needs to do that, yes our influences from our colonizers with the Spaniards shares the biggest contribution to our culture and religion is what drew us together even if some of us are opinionated towards one another, but that happens even in a progressive countries like the United States. Some people from other states would have an opinion towards another state such as the Northerners towards the southerners.

The Philippines remained one after the Spanish and American colonization because we declared our own independence from all foreign oppressor so we pretty much asked for the rebirth of our country that should be run by the natives and not any foreign aggressors whom we all knew didn't really treated us fairly by 100%, Inspite of all these we still owe our existance from our history, we should be thankful for it somehow but it doesn't really mean we need to be overly nostalgic of our past because we rather move forward and continue to evolve as a nation.

We still can be a proud bisaya, tagalog, ilocano, kapangpangan etc and at the same time, be still proud as a filipinos because our ways and beliefs are the same, we are just separated by our tongues.

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

you know what brothers, what really makes me sad about this country is the pride of ultra nationalists people. Has what I have said in my previous post here, the mere fact that Spain came into our shores and colonized us is not all bad luck because there are good things that comes with it that can unite us. first is religion because we were being united by one common faith and secondly, it could have been language. IMO, with my previous post giving examples of central and south America, they have adapted Spanish because they believe that the language can unite their peoples and their borders as well. Its not that Spanish was compulsory in the Americas that they have to speak it until today and because it was not compulsory here then we cannot make it our lengua franca too given the fact that we are more entitled to its "unifying aspect" because we have a hundred different languages that may equal/surpass the Americas.

I don't buy the idea that our ultra nationalists WIKA experts describes Spanish as a language of oppression, discrimination and alienation of our culture. I do not believe also that the Americas adapted Spanish because they love the oppressive nature of the Spaniards. Even though Spanish was not compulsory in the Philippines because the seculars outweigh the friars that's why Spanish was not successfully promulgated in the islands, its not a reason why we cannot do something to unite our differences. I don't also believe that the Americas adapted Spanish because they were not proud of their native American cultures (Aztecs, Incas, Mayas, Amazonas, etc.) and languages (guarani, Quechua, Aymara, Inca, etc.) because these native American languages is still spoken by many in Latin America.

I also believe that there is less to discriminate in Spanish when spoken in this country, whether it be creole or Castilian as compared to English because the former has many Spanish based creole languages than the latter in the world. I don't think we can discriminate a Chavacano if he/she speaks his/her language because we are enamored by its Spanish influence. IMO, Spanish should not have been abolished in schools because that could have been the unifying factor for us and because Spanish can somehow describe us than English can because Spanish influence is evident in the country. For nearly 3 centuries of Spanish rule, its quite incomplete because we never took the advantage of Spanish to unite us. I say to our ultra nationalist WIKA experts, stop being so pessimistic and look for the bright side. I don't think our mother Filipinas will feel upset, insulted, oppressed, abandoned, etc. if we make Spanish as the more appropriate lengua franca for us apart from Eglish if what she'll be seeing is her people quarreling over languages.

It still is alright for media to use Tagalog in its national programs because we can not deny the fact that it is reality already but at least man lang in our institutions of learning, Spanish should not have been abolished so that those who are not comfortable speaking in Tagalog and finds English too "classy" could use Spanish to communicate with others. Peace be with you :)

[habagatcentral1]

-dp-

[Mercato]

lahi diay ang bisaya ug cebuano? diba preha raman na sila parehas ra unta... unsaon ta man nga ana-a man ta'y daghan karon nga mga scholar nga himoog lisud ang sayon ra unta. :dunno:

[Mercato]

Just whoever responded on my comments pretty much.

Bind us in what way you mean? I don't think tagalogs needs to do that, yes our influences from our colonizers with the Spaniards shares the biggest contribution to our culture and religion is what drew us together even if some of us are opinionated towards one another, but that happens even in a progressive countries like the United States. Some people from other states would have an opinion towards another state such as the Northerners towards the southerners. Well, if one takes away the hispanic components or the Catholic faith plus all its garnishings... What is left are only a bunch of 7,100 islands all with their distinct & separate Austronesian cultures. Similar to the Indonesian islands maybe - Bali is different from Sumatra is different from Sarawak is different from Java etc... :lol: I'm merely toying with Senyor icarus. & Happy halloween to u too mwg :lol:

[habagatcentral1]

parehas ra unta... unsaon ta man nga ana-a man ta'y daghan karon nga mga scholar nga himoog lisud ang sayon ra unta. :dunno:
Well, as what they say language is dynamic. Thus evolution into mutants with powers like reading minds, telepathy, laser eyes, control weather and absorb energy....:D And I guess we cannot blame that to the scholars alone but the movement of the people in Mindanao and Manila.

[Mercato]

I also believe that there is less to discriminate in Spanish when spoken in this country, whether it be creole or Castilian as compared to English because the former has many Spanish based creole languages than the latter in the world. I don't think we can discriminate a Chavacano if he/she speaks his/her language because we are enamored by its Spanish influence. IMO, Spanish should not have been abolished in schools because that could have been the unifying factor for us and because Spanish can somehow describe us than English can because Spanish influence is evident in the country. For nearly 3 centuries of Spanish rule, its quite incomplete because we never took the advantage of Spanish to unite us. I say to our ultra nationalist WIKA experts, stop being so pessimistic and look for the bright side. I don't think our mother Filipinas will feel upset, insulted, oppressed, abandoned, etc. if we make Spanish as the more appropriate lengua franca for us apart from Eglish if what she'll be seeing is her people quarreling over languages. Oi! amigo mio, hala dayon, dayon ngari... :lol: :lol: there must've been some crosswires, bro. WIKA is not fighting spanish, it is fighting the English reinforcement bill sponsored by Gullas & Del Mar. (But that is another story.) But it is not an organisation that is lookin for our "provincial" interests, that I can tell ya. ;)

Also, there had already been several bloody threads & debates about the return of Spanish before u came. Most of 'em had ended up in locked threads. It is interesting that u came up with these ideas independently... hmmm. Did your history teachers tell you that the First Filipino Republic did in fact enshrine Spanish as the national language - re the Malolos Constitution? Few ultranationalists these days will admit this. :lol: Fact is, the KKK & Aguinaldo only declared war against the Spanish Civil authorities. The KKK did not declare war against the hispanised culture, religion, customs AND by logical extension, the language. But what can we do :dunno: we never run out of brightboy revisionists? The best we can do is only try and educate folks around. :lol: Come with us, ven conmigo... :cheers:

[demented_pigeon]

Well, as what they say language is dynamic. Thus evolution into mutants with powers like reading minds, telepathy, laser eyes, control weather and absorb energy....:D And I guess we cannot blame that to the scholars alone but the movement of the people in Mindanao and Manila.

There should be more research done on that...

I was just reading this thread and chanced to read a reply that basically cast hatred on Tagalogs speaking Tagalog even when they resided in Cebu for years... My only reply is, unsa man na? jeez, does the fact that i still speak tagalog make me less of a cebuano. i had it up to here with my fellow cebuanos who insist that people "like me" should either choose between the two. such kind of attitude strikes m as being parochial and insensitive. I've lived in cebu since i was 3 years old and I still know how to speak tagalog fluently, and for that, some of my classmates poke fun at me. jeezuz christ, i understand being at the receiving end of jokes since im a cebuano too. But to insist that people linguistic backgrounds speak only cebuano only strikes me as being offensive. People who advocate that are people who put their entire existence proving their better than tagalogs. That pisses me off. I'm a Cebuano and I'm proud to speak both Cebuano and Tagalog fluently.

[demented_pigeon]

Oi! amigo mio, hala dayon, dayon ngari... :lol: :lol: there must've been some crosswires, bro. WIKA is not fighting spanish, it is fighting the English reinforcement bill sponsored by Gullas & Del Mar. (But that is another story.) But it is not an organisation that is lookin for our "provincial" interests, that I can tell ya. ;)

Also, there had already been several bloody threads & debates about the return of Spanish before u came. Most of 'em had ended up in locked threads. It is interesting that u came up with these ideas independently... hmmm. Did your history teachers tell you that the First Filipino Republic did in fact enshrine Spanish as the national language - re the Malolos Constitution? Few ultranationalists these days will admit this. :lol: Fact is, the KKK & Aguinaldo only declared war against the Spanish Civil authorities. The KKK did not declare war against the hispanised culture, religion, customs AND by logical extension, the language. But what can we do :dunno: we never run out of brightboy revisionists? The best we can do is only try and educate folks around. :lol: Come with us, ven conmigo... :cheers:

weirdly enough allegedly "pro-cebuano langauge legislators" want the english only bill passed but don't want the local languages as instruction bill passed. their basically hiding their bias towards english because they can and never will want to converse with ordinary Filipinos whether they be tagalog or cebuano

[Mercato]

weirdly enough allegedly "pro-cebuano langauge legislators" want the english only bill passed but don't want the local languages as instruction bill passed. their basically hiding their bias towards english because they can and never will want to converse with ordinary Filipinos whether they be tagalog or cebuano Not wanting to converse whether they be in tagalog or cebuano, my what a sweeping conclusion. Funny you should say that since the opposite side WIKA has nothing much in store for the regional languages themselves anyway except empty rhetoric. Just as it was 60 years ago. It is all for the propagation of one, not the others. :lol:

If you had carefully read the sentence, it wasn't meant for you to choose "exclusively" between one or the other since you are both, goodness. Parochial & insensitive? Did you fail to read the part where I also spent time in Batangas hence I could also be a combination of both since I am also fluent in deep tagalog or deep cebuano? :lol:

[demented_pigeon]

Not wanting to converse whether they be in tagalog or cebuano, my what a sweeping conclusion. Funny you should say that since the opposite side WIKA has nothing much in store for the regional languages themselves anyway except empty rhetoric. Just as it was 60 years ago. It is all for the propagation of one, not the others. :lol:

If you had carefully read the sentence, it wasn't meant for you to choose "exclusively" between one or the other since you are both, goodness. Parochial & insensitive? Did you fail to read the part where I also spent time in Batangas hence I could also be a combination of both since I am also fluent in deep tagalog or deep cebuano? :lol:

Have you also heard the term assuming? Obviously the reply wasn't even meant for you. Ok, so my advice is read my post again then again. After the third reading I would like you to reply if that particular message was directed at you or merely adding another fact. also, just to add to your knowledge of history, most of the congressmen in the 1960s who advocated for a tagalog based Filipino happen to belong to the upper class which is also the same economic class where most so-called "cebuano" legislators who are pushing for the english only bill come from.

So maybe next time you reply to a post, maybe we should try reading it first.

[demented_pigeon]

Ok mercato, let's clarify the arguments before your rage erupts like a volcano...

there is a pending bill in congress seeking to mandate that english be the language of instruction. and then there is the bill advocating that the local languages of the students be used as the medium of instruction. this is the actual bill being supported by the linguists to bridge the gap between the primary language and the secondary language. the bill supported by our dear congressmen argue that we should use english...

I don't know who's more pro-cebuano here, cebuano legislators advocating that english be the primary language of instruction or language advocates (including the NCCA accused by the likes of bobit avila as being tagalog-centric). Maybe forumers could help me with this. Doesn't it seem that our own legislators don't want cebuano to be taught in the classrooms?

[Mercato]

Have you also heard the term assuming? Obviously the reply wasn't even meant for you. Ok, so my advice is read my post again then again. After the third reading I would like you to reply if that particular message was directed at you or merely adding another fact. also, just to add to your knowledge of history, most of the congressmen in the 1960s who advocated for a tagalog based Filipino happen to belong to the upper class which is also the same economic class where most so-called "cebuano" legislators who are pushing for the english only bill come from.

So maybe next time you reply to a post, maybe we should try reading it first. Hmmm, you just quoted me a few posts ago did you not? Also no offense, in another thread you said it was from the movement that this Filipino language came from, now you say it from congressmen who belong to the same upper classes as the english legislators. Which is which? The socialist movement or the rich classes? As far as I know it was rooted in the post war 40s. But hey, I'm all ears... :lol:

[Mercato]

Ok mercato, let's clarify the arguments before your rage erupts like a volcano...

there is a pending bill in congress seeking to mandate that english be the language of instruction. and then there is the bill advocating that the local languages of the students be used as the medium of instruction. this is the actual bill being supported by the linguists to bridge the gap between the primary language and the secondary language. the bill supported by our dear congressmen argue that we should use english...

I don't know who's more pro-cebuano here, cebuano legislators advocating that english be the primary language of instruction or language advocates (including the NCCA accused by the likes of bobit avila as being tagalog-centric). Maybe forumers could help me with this. Doesn't it seem that our own legislators don't want cebuano to be taught in the classrooms?
No, I'm in a festive and playful spirit right now... I'm actually toyin around... :)

These highlights in bold, now this I know not of. The only thing I know is that the opponents of Gullas has no clear program for regional languages, but I could also be wrong since I am thousands of miles away... Ok, I will sit back and listen.

But if someone can present a clear program with the phrase I highlighted, then that settles everything then, right? Right on, bro...

[demented_pigeon]

Hmmm, you just quoted me a few posts ago did you not? Also no offense, in another thread you said it was from the movement that this Filipino language came from, now you say it from congressmen who belong to the same upper classes as the english legislators. Which is which? The socialist movement or the rich classes? As far as I know it was rooted in the post war 40s. But hey, I'm all hears... :lol:

Again, with reading things...

My quote was merely to add on your point. The movement that pushed for transcending tagalog-centrism happens to be the progressive movement. Our congressmen don't belong from the movement. they're the elite. now these congressmen are pushing that english be the sole medium of instruction therefore betraying their bias towards english and makes their sympathy towards cebuano really hollow. On the other hand we have linguists who were accused by the hatchetmen of our congressmen as being tagalog-centric as the prime proponents of having the local languages used as the primary languages of instruction instead of purely tagalog or even english...

[demented_pigeon]

No, I'm in a festive and playful spirit right now... I'm actually toyin around... :)

These highlights in bold, now this I know not of. The only thing I know is that the opponents of Gullas has no clear program for regional languages, but I could also be wrong since I am thousands of miles away... Ok, I will sit back and listen.

But if someone can present a clear program with the phrase I highlighted, then that settles everything then, right? Right on, bro...

let me find the name of that bill... it has few supporters as compared to that proposed by gullas.

[Mercato]

^^^^ whilst waitin... I just noticed ur siggy... I'm all for it. But why stop with only one socialist senator. IMHO, half a dozen would do more wonders.
http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo332/mercato2008/Mex%20Day%203/Rest%20of%20the%20City/Four3.jpg Unya mainstream, nakapili ka na sa imong caballo? wala lang... :lol: basta ako si Pale Rider.

Conquest (White) = Carries a bow with no arrows, and wears a crown
War (Red) = Carries a sword
Famine (Black) = Carries a balance (weighing scale)
Death (Pale) = Death, followed by Hades (Pluto).
:lol:

[bukid]

:D:D:D

di usa ko mag-apil apil ninyo dri. basta ang ako lang, maypag wa nalang tay nganlan na "national" language" aron way lalis. tutal di man mawala ato pagka-filipino kung mag-english ta. maomao ra sa mga mexicano na mag-espanyol apan nawala ba ang ilang pagka-mexicano tungod sa ilang pagsultihanay gamit ang espanyol.

[Mercato]

^^ bai! ay'g kabalaka naghangop hangop ra gani mi ni higala demented. parehas gud ming liberal.. unsa na man, kon ganahan ka pili na sa colour sa imong cabayo kon ana'ay mo back out nga uban natong higala. :lol::lol:

[Lurker99]

as someone born in Manila but with Visayan parents, it's very nice to see that Cebu is trying to create an identity of its own

anyway, it would be a better move from the government if they strengthen the educational system on multi-/biligualism such that the vernacular language must be strictly taught and applied, including Filipino and English. the only root for our country to progress (and cebu to CEBOOM) is to showcase our own languages (not only Filipino) in academic, economic, communicative and media terms. it's still in the nationalistic approach where we could find a bright future for the Philippines

[mwg12a]

you know what brothers, what really makes me sad about this country is the pride of ultra nationalists people. Has what I have said in my previous post here, the mere fact that Spain came into our shores and colonized us is not all bad luck because there are good things that comes with it that can unite us. first is religion because we were being united by one common faith and secondly, it could have been language. IMO, with my previous post giving examples of central and south America, they have adapted Spanish because they believe that the language can unite their peoples and their borders as well. Its not that Spanish was compulsory in the Americas that they have to speak it until today and because it was not compulsory here then we cannot make it our lengua franca too given the fact that we are more entitled to its "unifying aspect" because we have a hundred different languages that may equal/surpass the Americas.

I don't buy the idea that our ultra nationalists WIKA experts describes Spanish as a language of oppression, discrimination and alienation of our culture. I do not believe also that the Americas adapted Spanish because they love the oppressive nature of the Spaniards. Even though Spanish was not compulsory in the Philippines because the seculars outweigh the friars that's why Spanish was not successfully promulgated in the islands, its not a reason why we cannot do something to unite our differences. I don't also believe that the Americas adapted Spanish because they were not proud of their native American cultures (Aztecs, Incas, Mayas, Amazonas, etc.) and languages (guarani, Quechua, Aymara, Inca, etc.) because these native American languages is still spoken by many in Latin America.

I also believe that there is less to discriminate in Spanish when spoken in this country, whether it be creole or Castilian as compared to English because the former has many Spanish based creole languages than the latter in the world. I don't think we can discriminate a Chavacano if he/she speaks his/her language because we are enamored by its Spanish influence. IMO, Spanish should not have been abolished in schools because that could have been the unifying factor for us and because Spanish can somehow describe us than English can because Spanish influence is evident in the country. For nearly 3 centuries of Spanish rule, its quite incomplete because we never took the advantage of Spanish to unite us. I say to our ultra nationalist WIKA experts, stop being so pessimistic and look for the bright side. I don't think our mother Filipinas will feel upset, insulted, oppressed, abandoned, etc. if we make Spanish as the more appropriate lengua franca for us apart from Eglish if what she'll be seeing is her people quarreling over languages.

It still is alright for media to use Tagalog in its national programs because we can not deny the fact that it is reality already but at least man lang in our institutions of learning, Spanish should not have been abolished so that those who are not comfortable speaking in Tagalog and finds English too "classy" could use Spanish to communicate with others. Peace be with you :)

Any language can unite a country as long as it is not seen as oppressive and divisive, instead, it is seen as a medium for communication exclusive for a country.

The problem during the spanish era was that, the spaniards didn't really allow the natives to learn the Spanish language, it was made exclusive only to the elite and to those whom has a real spanish blood. It has been 300 something years and it was not even taught to any native from Luzon to Mindanao. What unite us from our past with the Spaniards is the religion and some of the tradition catholic christians has been following up to the present time. If Catholism/christianism were taught to the filipinos almost right away to the natives. How come the spanish language were not even bothered be shared to an average indios?


It was in my time that the last Spanish classes were abolished, because it was considered an added burden for the filipino students, with tagalog, english and spanish is being taught in the Philippine schools. Although, that time, you would get spanish class in 4th year high school , the rest of the classes were in freshmen and sophomore years in College. During those time, very few filipinos speaks the spanish language contrary to what your parents claims atleast from what I have experienced and from what my parents told me, because most people would speak more english than spanish. This is because of the fact that the Americans started educating the filipinos and taught the english language in the Philippine school.


Imagine if we have two extra languages to learn, spanish and english, as well as our native languages. We wouldn't have enough time to learn other important things in school. It's a known fact now that the filipinos are lagging behind in the english language, Mathematics and Science as well i believe. How much lag would we be experiencing right now if in we have to break our sweats to learn spanish in school instead of just an elective for those who really wanted to learn spanish again?

[mwg12a]

as someone born in Manila but with Visayan parents, it's very nice to see that Cebu is trying to create an identity of its own

anyway, it would be a better move from the government if they strengthen the educational system on multi-/biligualism such that the vernacular language must be strictly taught and applied, including Filipino and English. the only root for our country to progress (and cebu to CEBOOM) is to showcase our own languages (not only Filipino) in academic, economic, communicative and media terms. it's still in the nationalistic approach where we could find a bright future for the Philippines

It's actually a noble act for the people of the Visayas regian to promote awareness of their language and culture to the rest of the other filipinos and hopefully they would follow suit because I believe we would learn more about one another that in the end will promote harmony and unity because we would all be just equal and nobody would feel left out or inferior/superior over the other.

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

^^^^ whilst waitin... I just noticed ur siggy... I'm all for it. But why stop with only one socialist senator. IMHO, half a dozen would do more wonders.
http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo332/mercato2008/Mex%20Day%203/Rest%20of%20the%20City/Four3.jpg Unya mainstream, nakapili ka na sa imong caballo? wala lang... :lol: basta ako si Pale Rider.

Conquest (White) = Carries a bow with no arrows, and wears a crown
War (Red) = Carries a sword
Famine (Black) = Carries a balance (weighing scale)
Death (Pale) = Death, followed by Hades (Pluto).
:lol:

bai @mercato, unsa d.i purpose nato? :lol::lol::lol:.... ok sige hatagan tika ug chance..ahhh...famine na lang ko bai kay its balance man kaha. :cheers:


Imagine if we have two extra languages to learn, spanish and english, as well as our native languages. We wouldn't have enough time to learn other important things in school. It's a known fact now that the filipinos are lagging behind in the english language, Mathematics and Science as well i believe. How much lag would we be experiencing right now if in we have to break our sweats to learn spanish in school instead of just an elective for those who really wanted to learn spanish again?

bai @mwg12a, im really biased with spanish even though i don't have any formal education about the language but thanks for the added insights bro. ako lang is if i can suggest scrapping Filipino and change it to spanish with english in elementary, secondary and tertiary levels with philippine history be in spanish. Then in tertiary, there we could insert regional cultures but doesn't necessary to learn about native language like sentence building, pronunciation, grammar, etc. but more on familiarization of local history, culture, arts, literature, etc. using the native language because i don't think learning native languages is necessary/practical to make it stay too long in school because i believe IMO, that even native-tagalog speakers may be bored in learning filipino/tagalog when they in fact know how to speak it right. just a suggestion.:)

Also, there had already been several bloody threads & debates about the return of Spanish before u came. Most of 'em had ended up in locked threads. It is interesting that u came up with these ideas independently... hmmm. Did your history teachers tell you that the First Filipino Republic did in fact enshrine Spanish as the national language - re the Malolos Constitution?

believe me, those posts never influenced my views because I'm too lazy to find out. yeah, I remember the malolos constitution thing. ;)

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

-double post-

[habagatcentral1]

dp

[Igsuonnimo]

as someone born in Manila but with Visayan parents, it's very nice to see that Cebu is trying to create an identity of its own

anyway, it would be a better move from the government if they strengthen the educational system on multi-/biligualism such that the vernacular language must be strictly taught and applied, including Filipino and English. the only root for our country to progress (and cebu to CEBOOM) is to showcase our own languages (not only Filipino) in academic, economic, communicative and media terms. it's still in the nationalistic approach where we could find a bright future for the Philippines

Sana nga.
At hindi yung mga nagtatago sa pagka-Pilipino.
It could be Overseas Visayan or Overseas Cebuano.
Dito mo ngayon malalaman kung ano ang tunay na ibig sabihin ng Overseas Pinoy.

[Mercato]

as someone born in Manila but with Visayan parents, it's very nice to see that Cebu is trying to create an identity of its own

anyway, it would be a better move from the government if they strengthen the educational system on multi-/biligualism such that the vernacular language must be strictly taught and applied, including Filipino and English. the only root for our country to progress (and cebu to CEBOOM) is to showcase our own languages (not only Filipino) in academic, economic, communicative and media terms. it's still in the nationalistic approach where we could find a bright future for the Philippines You are absolutely correct in your viewpoint.

Pls allow me to highlight in red the biggest stumblingblock successive Phil. regimes have had. This stumblingblock, procrastination and utter lack of will power, has effectively rendered these nice ideas to remain a hypothesis, a theory and nothing more.

[Mercato]

Any language can unite a country as long as it is not seen as oppressive and divisive, instead, it is seen as a medium for communication exclusive for a country.

The problem during the spanish era was that, the spaniards didn't really allow the natives to learn the Spanish language, it was made exclusive only to the elite and to those whom has a real spanish blood. It has been 300 something years and it was not even taught to any native from Luzon to Mindanao. What unite us from our past with the Spaniards is the religion and some of the tradition catholic christians has been following up to the present time. If Catholism/christianism were taught to the filipinos almost right away to the natives. How come the spanish language were not even bothered be shared to an average indios?


It was in my time that the last Spanish classes were abolished, because it was considered an added burden for the filipino students, with tagalog, english and spanish is being taught in the Philippine schools. Although, that time, you would get spanish class in 4th year high school , the rest of the classes were in freshmen and sophomore years in College. During those time, very few filipinos speaks the spanish language contrary to what your parents claims atleast from what I have experienced and from what my parents told me, because most people would speak more english than spanish. This is because of the fact that the Americans started educating the filipinos and taught the english language in the Philippine school.


Imagine if we have two extra languages to learn, spanish and english, as well as our native languages. We wouldn't have enough time to learn other important things in school. It's a known fact now that the filipinos are lagging behind in the english language, Mathematics and Science as well i believe. How much lag would we be experiencing right now if in we have to break our sweats to learn spanish in school instead of just an elective for those who really wanted to learn spanish again? mwg, mwg, mwg... hmmm Why is it that even if we are always diametrically opposed on this issue, I am able to tolerate your opinions better & we can even sometimes get along, strange though it may seem? Hmmm, maybe 'tis because you do not post sinister one liners loaded with doble entendres. At least, I can understand your viewpoint with whole paragraphs instead of mindgames. That could be it. :yes:............

But still, I disagree with you entirely on the above post :nocrook: :lol:

[Mercato]

bai @mercato, unsa d.i purpose nato? :lol::lol::lol:.... ok sige hatagan tika ug chance..ahhh...famine na lang ko bai kay its balance man kaha. :cheers:


believe me, those posts never influenced my views because I'm too lazy to find out. yeah, I remember the malolos constitution thing. ;) Where to begin? Well, on your last paragraph, you can prob go have a look at the various places that offer free or cheap spanish courses like casino espanol or tesda, like what flesh suggested a long time ago in another thread.

The purporse of the horses? Wala lang. Symbolic gesture; propagation of Cebuano pride of place and culture. Whilst I was busy elsewhere u guys were already in a royal rumble. Perhaps also to give a headache to those who post sinister maleficent one liners here that are loaded. There're a few juvenile dorks around who're good at this kinda mindgames. :lol: Horsing around lang unta... :D

Pale Rider

[Hajanlet]

I would have thought the the thread would slow down given what time of year it is. I see I have a lot of catching up to do.

Back on topic, I'll just have to react to what @demented_pigeon had posted. Knowing Tagalog does not make you less Cebuano, knowing lots of languages is actually a good thing. If you were reacting to one of my posts, please read it again, you're jumping to conclusions. What I meant was that those who have stayed here long enough to become residents, should learn the language because it is too much an imposition for them to insist that the locals speak to them in Tagalog; it's rude and very very arrogant and that's why I hate them. I mean come on, I knew someone who's been here 4 years and you really can't talk to the guy unless you went Tagalog on him; that just isn't right.

About what happened in your youth, it's actually something of a similarity that we have. I posted in the English thread how I'm more of a native Ceblish speaker than a native Cebuano speaker. The circumstances of my youth were such that I learned to speak by watching TV. Back then, cartoons were dubbed in English instead of 'Filipino' so I ended up being an English speaker; there was some Cebuano, but English was my dominant language. Though my family is Cebuano, most of them thought it such a novelty for someone so young to be so fluent in a foreign language that they tended to encourage my use of English.

It sort of backfired when I went to school, I didn't communicate very well since my classmates were Cebuano. I tended to get stuck, and I stuttered whenever I spoke Cebuano and, since they were children, my classmates did not react in a mature manner. They did not understand my situation and thought I was stupid, I remember a classmate calling me 'utok bulinao' (let's just translate that to fishbrains).

The way I handled the situation was that I learned Cebuano. I still recall the pride I felt when I realized that I no longer had to ask people to translate for me whenever I asked for an item's price. 'Katorse?', I used to need to have it translated into English.

People who migrate to a place and insist that the locals adapt to them instead of the other way around are asking to be discriminated against.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About that issue of how we may become diluted by a foreign language/culture, the funny thing with culture is that they actually become enriched when you mix them.

I only ever read the history that was required at school, but I think I am right when I say that no culture is actually pure. If there is, it is not one of the influential ones. When we learn of western culture, we are made aware of how Rome and Greece were so influential. Many of the people here seem not to recall that many of the western powers of today, were actually the barbarians in ancient times. What they did was learn from other cultures to become stronger.

On the subject of a pure 'Filipino' culture, it is actually something that most of us here would find very alien. I mean all those tattoos, head binding, teeth filing, wearing loin cloths and so on are really rather strange to me. So just how do we keep it pure anyway? It's already a mix of many things by the time we were born. It is beyond anyone to try and turn back the clock.

The ultra-nationalists are so stuck up with how we have been oppressed by our conquerors that they forget that those nations did conquer us. They did something better than we did, we lost, and we ended up in their power. We could learn a lot from them. A purist approach to our culture where we reject foreign influences would only keep us as the kind of backwards civilization that's just ripe for conquest. Let's keep history from repeating itself by learning what our conquerors did better.

The only problem I see at present is that there are those who see everything foreign as superior. My view is that there are some things we do better, and there are some things they do better. Our culture would be strengthened if we appropriate their strengths and learn from their shortcomings.

[habagatcentral1]

Commentary
Mother-tongue education is way to go
By Isabel Pefianco Martin | Philippine Daily Inquirer
11/01/2008

At a recent policy research forum hosted by SEAMEO Innotech, language education specialists from the Department of Education, the National Economic and Development Authority, Komisyon sa Wikang Filipino [Commission on Filipino Language], Summer Institute of Linguistics, and others from educational and non-government institutions, including the Linguistic Society of the Philippines, gathered to discuss “Language of Learning: Models and Best Practices.” It became crystal clear to all present that mother-tongue education should be the way to go so that basic education in the Philippines would truly move forward.

The reasons behind promoting mother-tongue education do not seem to be evident to many educators and lawmakers in this country, even if the concept is almost axiomatic to the rest of the world. How else do we explain the fact that there are 205 co-authors of House Bill 305, which seeks to make English the sole medium of instruction in Philippine schools?

In the Philippines, mother-tongue education is already being practiced with success. The Lubuagan First Language Experiment, conducted by the Summer Institute of Linguistics in close collaboration with the Department of Education, revealed that students taught in their native language performed much better in Math, Science, English, and Filipino achievement tests. In fact today, first-language teaching in Lubuagan is no longer experimental. It was so successful that the community decided to adopt it as the norm.

The Lubuagan experience proves that mastery of content is best achieved through mother tongue-based teaching. Mother-tongue education allows students to bridge from their first languages to the second languages, including the two official languages, Filipino and English.

Mother-tongue education does not have to be implemented in formal school settings alone. This is evident in the basic literacy experience of the Pulangiyen tribal community of Bukidnon. At the Policy Research Forum hosted by SEAMEO Innotech, Fr. Pedro Walpole, S.J. presented an approach that combined culture-based education and the basic education curriculum of the Department of Education, necessarily founded on mother-tongue education. This ultimately deepened the schoolchildren’s ownership of their culture. Father Walpole estimates that there are about 300 informal educational activities throughout Mindanao that are similar to the mother-tongue basic literacy efforts in Pulangiyen, Bukidnon. Unfortunately, these informal settings continue to elude the Department of Education’s attention.

The idea of mother-tongue education in the Philippines is certainly not new. The 1948-1954 Iloilo Experiment in Education Through the Vernacular has already shown the benefits of teaching in the first language. The 1991 Congressional Commission on Education included the use of home languages in its policy recommendations. Similar recommendations were made in the 1998 Philippine Education Sector Study of the ADB and World Bank, the report of the 2000 Presidential Commission on Educational Reform, and the National Learning Strategy of the 2008 Department of Education Basic Education Sector Reform Agenda.

Despite the popularity of HB Bill 305, An Act to Strengthen and Enhance the Use of English as the Medium of Instruction in Philippine Schools, within the seemingly uninformed confines of the Philippine legislature, mother-tongue education continues to gain advocates among language professionals, teachers, and parents.

The Komisyon sa Wikang Filipino was the first to issue a statement endorsing mother-tongue education by supporting House Bill 3719, also known as the Multilingual Education and Literacy Act, authored by Rep. Magtanggol Gunigundo of Valenzuela City.

The Philippine Business for Education, one of the largest associations of businessmen in the country, adopted the UNESCO position that the mother tongue is essential for literacy in any setting. In May 2008, delegates to the Nakem Conference held at St. Mary’s University in Bayombong, Nueva Vizcaya, passed a resolution supporting HB 3719.

In September, the Linguistic Society of the Philippines, one of the oldest and most prestigious associations of language researchers in the country, gave its full support for the Gunigundo bill.

The National Economic and Development Authority, through Director General Ralph Recto, cited the harmony of HB 3719 with the goals of the Philippine Education for All (EFA) 2015 Plan and the Updated Medium-Term Philippine Development Plan (MTPDP) 2004-2010.

Even parents are supportive of mother-tongue education. Some Parents-Teachers and Community Associations (PTCA) have already issued statements of support for HB 3719, among them, the PTCA of Marikina City and Rizal province, as well as the Public School District Supervisors Association of Marikina City. As of this writing, I have already received pledges from stakeholders in Cebu, Bicol, and Pangasinan.

Why must we insist on mother-tongue education? Dr. Aurelio Agcaoili, convener of the Nakem Conferences, sums it up eloquently: “HB 3719 is a bold admission of a very simple but emancipatory principle of education: that each educand learns better and more productively if he learns what he is supposed to learn in his own language, and thus, in accord with the tools of his own culture.”

[demented_pigeon]

Commentary
Mother-tongue education is way to go
By Isabel Pefianco Martin | Philippine Daily Inquirer
11/01/2008

At a recent policy research forum hosted by SEAMEO Innotech, language education specialists from the Department of Education, the National Economic and Development Authority, Komisyon sa Wikang Filipino [Commission on Filipino Language], Summer Institute of Linguistics, and others from educational and non-government institutions, including the Linguistic Society of the Philippines, gathered to discuss “Language of Learning: Models and Best Practices.” It became crystal clear to all present that mother-tongue education should be the way to go so that basic education in the Philippines would truly move forward.

The reasons behind promoting mother-tongue education do not seem to be evident to many educators and lawmakers in this country, even if the concept is almost axiomatic to the rest of the world. How else do we explain the fact that there are 205 co-authors of House Bill 305, which seeks to make English the sole medium of instruction in Philippine schools?

In the Philippines, mother-tongue education is already being practiced with success. The Lubuagan First Language Experiment, conducted by the Summer Institute of Linguistics in close collaboration with the Department of Education, revealed that students taught in their native language performed much better in Math, Science, English, and Filipino achievement tests. In fact today, first-language teaching in Lubuagan is no longer experimental. It was so successful that the community decided to adopt it as the norm.

The Lubuagan experience proves that mastery of content is best achieved through mother tongue-based teaching. Mother-tongue education allows students to bridge from their first languages to the second languages, including the two official languages, Filipino and English.

Mother-tongue education does not have to be implemented in formal school settings alone. This is evident in the basic literacy experience of the Pulangiyen tribal community of Bukidnon. At the Policy Research Forum hosted by SEAMEO Innotech, Fr. Pedro Walpole, S.J. presented an approach that combined culture-based education and the basic education curriculum of the Department of Education, necessarily founded on mother-tongue education. This ultimately deepened the schoolchildren’s ownership of their culture. Father Walpole estimates that there are about 300 informal educational activities throughout Mindanao that are similar to the mother-tongue basic literacy efforts in Pulangiyen, Bukidnon. Unfortunately, these informal settings continue to elude the Department of Education’s attention.

The idea of mother-tongue education in the Philippines is certainly not new. The 1948-1954 Iloilo Experiment in Education Through the Vernacular has already shown the benefits of teaching in the first language. The 1991 Congressional Commission on Education included the use of home languages in its policy recommendations. Similar recommendations were made in the 1998 Philippine Education Sector Study of the ADB and World Bank, the report of the 2000 Presidential Commission on Educational Reform, and the National Learning Strategy of the 2008 Department of Education Basic Education Sector Reform Agenda.

Despite the popularity of HB Bill 305, An Act to Strengthen and Enhance the Use of English as the Medium of Instruction in Philippine Schools, within the seemingly uninformed confines of the Philippine legislature, mother-tongue education continues to gain advocates among language professionals, teachers, and parents.

The Komisyon sa Wikang Filipino was the first to issue a statement endorsing mother-tongue education by supporting House Bill 3719, also known as the Multilingual Education and Literacy Act, authored by Rep. Magtanggol Gunigundo of Valenzuela City.

The Philippine Business for Education, one of the largest associations of businessmen in the country, adopted the UNESCO position that the mother tongue is essential for literacy in any setting. In May 2008, delegates to the Nakem Conference held at St. Mary’s University in Bayombong, Nueva Vizcaya, passed a resolution supporting HB 3719.

In September, the Linguistic Society of the Philippines, one of the oldest and most prestigious associations of language researchers in the country, gave its full support for the Gunigundo bill.

The National Economic and Development Authority, through Director General Ralph Recto, cited the harmony of HB 3719 with the goals of the Philippine Education for All (EFA) 2015 Plan and the Updated Medium-Term Philippine Development Plan (MTPDP) 2004-2010.

Even parents are supportive of mother-tongue education. Some Parents-Teachers and Community Associations (PTCA) have already issued statements of support for HB 3719, among them, the PTCA of Marikina City and Rizal province, as well as the Public School District Supervisors Association of Marikina City. As of this writing, I have already received pledges from stakeholders in Cebu, Bicol, and Pangasinan.

Why must we insist on mother-tongue education? Dr. Aurelio Agcaoili, convener of the Nakem Conferences, sums it up eloquently: “HB 3719 is a bold admission of a very simple but emancipatory principle of education: that each educand learns better and more productively if he learns what he is supposed to learn in his own language, and thus, in accord with the tools of his own culture.”

when this came out my fears came true. our cebuano legislators simply pay lip service to "strengthening" the local languages. they even had their spin doctors convince many cebuanos that in order to preserve the local languages we have to put english as the primary means of instruction. One very good spin doctor even said that the "so-called nationalists" in KWF and NCCA are predominantly pro-tagalog. But to everyone's surprise a "pro-tagalog" institute and a tagalog congressman are pushing for a bill that will see our local languages used. Now everything has been turned upside down. those who claim to be pro-local languages are pushing for the english bill whereas their sworn enemies are the one's pushing for the local languages bill. Hay usahay gyud kinahanglan bantayan ang balita para masakpan ang ipokrito.

[Mercato]

About that issue of how we may become diluted by a foreign language/culture, the funny thing with culture is that they actually become enriched when you mix them.

I only ever read the history that was required at school, but I think I am right when I say that no culture is actually pure. If there is, it is not one of the influential ones. When we learn of western culture, we are made aware of how Rome and Greece were so influential. Many of the people here seem not to recall that many of the western powers of today, were actually the barbarians in ancient times. What they did was learn from other cultures to become stronger.

On the subject of a pure 'Filipino' culture, it is actually something that most of us here would find very alien. I mean all those tattoos, head binding, teeth filing, wearing loin cloths and so on are really rather strange to me. So just how do we keep it pure anyway? It's already a mix of many things by the time we were born. It is beyond anyone to try and turn back the clock.

The ultra-nationalists are so stuck up with how we have been oppressed by our conquerors that they forget that those nations did conquer us. They did something better than we did, we lost, and we ended up in their power. We could learn a lot from them. A purist approach to our culture where we reject foreign influences would only keep us as the kind of backwards civilization that's just ripe for conquest. Let's keep history from repeating itself by learning what our conquerors did better.

The only problem I see at present is that there are those who see everything foreign as superior. My view is that there are some things we do better, and there are some things they do better. Our culture would be strengthened if we appropriate their strengths and learn from their shortcomings. Once again, our thoughts are as one.

In a thread a long time ago, I opined that for a healthy reality check, the only original, pure & pristine Filipinos were the Aeta settlers. There were no human settlers before them. Make no mistake, the original Filipino is black, not brown. The much touted about Malay / Austronesian indigenous were actually Malay / Austronesian brown invaders in their own right. On their arrival they blended in w/ the local Aeta culture, then pushed out the Aetas to the brink. The next wave were the Hindu empires of Madjapahit or Sri Vijaya – indigenous? no – but only in the fertile minds of our ultranationalists. Come on, as if we don’t know how far India & the Malay Peninsula is. The Chinese came almost simultaneously then.

Their problem is they can only see the colour white when it comes to invader / conqueror. In the same token that the Malays oppressed the Aetas, now it was our ancestor’s turn to be subjugated by the Spanish first, then the Americans. So it became in vogue for the colour white to be the foreign conqueror, when the reality check is – even the colour brown is a much earlier foreign conqueror. Make no mistake, our ancestors were also warlike – case in point is how Lapulapu gutted Magellan. That is the hallmark of a true warrior.

From the anthropologic point of view, everyone who wants to call himself pure Filipino is claiming to be 100% Aeta. That much our ultranationalists missed by a long stretch. But the modern Filipino & his modern culture is a product of all those centuries of foreign rule. There is no “pure” culture. Yes, even Rome & Greece were not “pure” cultures but copied heavily from others. Rome & Greece became great by first copying heavily from older empires and then finally subjugating them.

Today, our ultranationalists want us to speak only the language of the “pure Filipino” (reality check - brown invader). I don’t suppose they mean the language of the Aeta – the only original Filipino? Our ultranationalists need to be savvy in seeing through the prism of paradigmatic shifts. But our Cebuano pride of place and instincts tell us that we also have our own language to cherish. Do the ultranationalists see themselves as invasive? No, they see themselves as indigenous. Cebuanos, however, see them as invasive because the reality check is, they really are foreign to us.

They forget that we only became one “country” courtesy of the Spanish. What about the inherited cultural mix of the Spanish and the Americans? No, they want nothing to do with it. But that is what strengthens modern cultures. Modern cultures are strengthened by the mix of old and new – the culture of the old brown invader and the new white invader. How should I put it succinctly – we should be streetwise savvy, smart and learn from all our invaders – both brown and white. Pure Filipino/culture – I mean, come on now, really…

[Mercato]

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In the Philippines, mother-tongue education is already being practiced with success. The Lubuagan First Language Experiment, conducted by the Summer Institute of Linguistics in close collaboration with the Department of Education, revealed that students taught in their native language performed much better in Math, Science, English, and Filipino achievement tests. In fact today, first-language teaching in Lubuagan is no longer experimental. It was so successful that the community decided to adopt it as the norm.
*
*
The Lubuagan experience proves that mastery of content is best achieved through mother tongue-based teaching. Mother-tongue education allows students to bridge from their first languages to the second languages, including the two official languages, Filipino and English. At face value, that seems good to note.

Just for clarification, to “perform better in Math and the Sciences” would also mean or entail that the native languages are better equipped at handling these 2 disciplines? Thus far, I know not of any native language that can surpass or even match English in the expression of the Sciences, in particular Mathematics.

But that is an interesting claim, indeed…



*
*
The idea of mother-tongue education in the Philippines is certainly not new. The 1948-1954 Iloilo Experiment in Education Through the Vernacular has already shown the benefits of teaching in the first language. The 1991 Congressional Commission on Education included the use of home languages in its policy recommendations. Similar recommendations were made in the 1998 Philippine Education Sector Study of the ADB and World Bank, the report of the 2000 Presidential Commission on Educational Reform, and the National Learning Strategy of the 2008 Department of Education Basic Education Sector Reform Agenda. So these sectors were the prime movers back then…


*
*
Even parents are supportive of mother-tongue education. Some Parents-Teachers and Community Associations (PTCA) have already issued statements of support for HB 3719, among them, the PTCA of Marikina City and Rizal province, as well as the Public School District Supervisors Association of Marikina City. As of this writing, I have already received pledges from stakeholders in Cebu, Bicol, and Pangasinan.

Why must we insist on mother-tongue education? Dr. Aurelio Agcaoili, convener of the Nakem Conferences, sums it up eloquently: “HB 3719 is a bold admission of a very simple but emancipatory principle of education: that each educand learns better and more productively if he learns what he is supposed to learn in his own language, and thus, in accord with the tools of his own culture.” Yes, in conclusion, I support mother-tongue education. But we must qualify that mother-tongue means our very own Cebuano only in Cebuano speaking regions and not (again) some other native language from a far away place. Otherwise, it’d all be tongue-in-cheek instead of real mother-tongue.

The other knot/ task to sort out is to fortify mother-tongues in the handling and teaching of the Sciences and Mathematics. I do not mean oversimplified Science and Math but the kind and quality of Science and Math also taught at children’s levels across our Asian neighbours like Malaysia, Singapore or Hongkong.

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

when this came out my fears came true. our cebuano legislators simply pay lip service to "strengthening" the local languages. they even had their spin doctors convince many cebuanos that in order to preserve the local languages we have to put english as the primary means of instruction. One very good spin doctor even said that the "so-called nationalists" in KWF and NCCA are predominantly pro-tagalog. But to everyone's surprise a "pro-tagalog" institute and a tagalog congressman are pushing for a bill that will see our local languages used. Now everything has been turned upside down. those who claim to be pro-local languages are pushing for the english bill whereas their sworn enemies are the one's pushing for the local languages bill. Hay usahay gyud kinahanglan bantayan ang balita para masakpan ang ipokrito.

well IMO bai, mugawas gihapon na filipino/tagalog would still be the national language. i guess the pro-cebuano congressmen wants english to neutralize native languages. i guess its not enough to use local languages in schools to teach math, science, etc. but the total scrapping of tagalog/filipino in school especially to those non-tagalog speaking regions. just my humble opinion..:)

[demented_pigeon]

well IMO bai, mugawas gihapon na filipino/tagalog would still be the national language. i guess the pro-cebuano congressmen wants english to neutralize native languages. i guess its not enough to use local languages in schools to teach math, science, etc. but the total scrapping of tagalog/filipino in school especially to those non-tagalog speaking regions. just my humble opinion..:) my humble opinion as a student of law, read the bill. let's see if our congressmen even inserted a provision regarding using the local languages as a means of instruction. if they didn't then i wouldn't back down from what i said. sorry but cebuano congressmen are no different from other politicians. they make promises but keeping them is a different thing.

[demented_pigeon]

At face value, that seems good to note.

Just for clarification, to “perform better in Math and the Sciences” would also mean or entail that the native languages are better equipped at handling these 2 disciplines? Thus far, I know not of any native language that can surpass or even match English in the expression of the Sciences, in particular Mathematics.

But that is an interesting claim, indeed…


So these sectors were the prime movers back then…

Yes, in conclusion, I support mother-tongue education. But we must qualify that mother-tongue means our very own Cebuano only in Cebuano speaking regions and not (again) some other native language from a far away place. Otherwise, it’d all be tongue-in-cheek instead of real mother-tongue.

The other knot/ task to sort out is to fortify mother-tongues in the handling and teaching of the Sciences and Mathematics. I do not mean oversimplified Science and Math but the kind and quality of Science and Math also taught at children’s levels across our Asian neighbours like Malaysia, Singapore or Hongkong.

definitely, but how can u advocate a our kind of cebuano when there are places that cebuano is also experiencing changes.

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

my humble opinion as a student of law, read the bill. let's see if our congressmen even inserted a provision regarding using the local languages as a means of instruction. if they didn't then i wouldn't back down from what i said. sorry but cebuano congressmen are no different from other politicians. they make promises but keeping them is a different thing.

so maybe they can come up with an agreement that lets make it this way and that way, our way and your way... so in the end, i see the pro-english led cebuano congressmen make english the medium of instruction of subjects english and biology and at the same time the pro-native languages led WIKA will change filipino/tagalog to native languages as well with math, chemistry, and physics. :)

[Mercato]

definitely, but how can u advocate a our kind of cebuano when there are places that cebuano is also experiencing changes. Now that is where our Cebuano language experts come into the fore. Up to now, there is no Cebuano "standard" apart from what one reads in Bisaya Magasin.

[demented_pigeon]

Now that is where our Cebuano language experts come into the fore. Up to now, there is no Cebuano "standard" apart from what one reads in Bisaya Magasin.

actually there are linguists who helped in compiling the Diksyunaryong UP the first Filipino dictionary containing words from all known filipino languages helped in compiling it. so there are definitely Cebuano experts.

[demented_pigeon]

so maybe they can come up with an agreement that lets make it this way and that way, our way and your way... so in the end, i see the pro-english led cebuano congressmen make english the medium of instruction of subjects english and biology and at the same time the pro-native languages led WIKA will change filipino/tagalog to native languages as well with math, chemistry, and physics. :)

actually pwede na pero i doubt. the english bill and the local languages bill symbolize advocacies on different sides. they've existed since the 1950s. most cebuano linguist are in fact supporting the local languages bill as opposed to the english bill authored by our congressmen.

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

^^

:cheers::rofl::rofl:

bitaw wa gyud tay mahems...

[demented_pigeon]

well IMO bai, mugawas gihapon na filipino/tagalog would still be the national language. i guess the pro-cebuano congressmen wants english to neutralize native languages. i guess its not enough to use local languages in schools to teach math, science, etc. but the total scrapping of tagalog/filipino in school especially to those non-tagalog speaking regions. just my humble opinion..:)

it leaves a bad taste in the mouth when we say using english to neutralize other languages. images of pampango mercenaries in the 1600s being used against ilokano revolts suddenly comes into my mind. i think if it ain't a local language then i wouldn't bother using it in my school. i don't care even if its a language used by Edgar Allan Poe. When you teach 4 year olds you don't assume they know english already. we would assume they use the language of their parents.

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

^^

sige lets go for our native languages basta lang bai sa cebu dili tagalog ang language ok ra kaayo. but the problem is when people migrate to places that they don't actually know the language and because in truth its really tagalog so we can't do about it alangan magenglish sila na filipinos man gihapon ta then murag sosyal kaayo ug dating ang english but the problem pud sa tagalog esp. in cebu kay di pud mi paalkanse sa mga tagalog for reasons na i presume kahibaw naka. mao i was thinking of reviving spanish in schools kay when we speak of spanish kay madala-dala man siya sa atong mga dila kay dili raman malayo sa atong mga panulti-on kaysa english. so given the fact na gamiton ang native languages sa schools to teach math, chemistry and physics ok ra kaayo but when communicating with others, spanish nalang siguro and i guess i-offer na siya sa college na. :)

[Animo]

^^ This article explains much of my sentiment towards the use of the Spanish language in the country. It is not only a useful language to understand our past as a nation but can also be bridge into a more richer world full of new literature, inspirations, economic allies and much more that it can offer for the Filipinos. It is no longer a language for the elite. No language should be in the first place, because the purpose of using a language is to communicate.

Roots: Castilian

José S. Arcilla S.J. (http://www.bworldonline.com/BW110308/content.php?id=143)

Spaniards and Mexicans are surprised that Filipinos do not know Castilian. Except a rather small elite, the Filipinos, unlike the South Americans, were never a Castilian-speaking people. When the Americans arrived in 1900, only about 10% of the people knew the language of Cervantes.

The Philippines was too far from Spain — two oceans removed — and only a handful of colonists came. And these remained in Manila to invest in the highly profitable galleon trade. They stayed away from the rural areas, and the only white face the people saw was that of the missionary.

For practical reasons, the missionaries agreed to preach the Gospel through the indigenous tongues. It was much easier for a single missionary to learn several dialects at once, than for an entire community of old and young members to learn Castilian. And in 1594, the Crown divided the country into exclusive linguistic zones for each missionary order. Perhaps unintended, the decree made the missionaries the first linguists, grammarians, authors of dictionaries of the local idioms.

But the Philippines remains a Hispanic country. Its culture, its ideals, its usages are strongly Hispanic, so strong that, if one were to remove this basic element, the people will cease to be Filipino. Remove, for example, "martes," "cememnteryo," "birhen," "meryenda," and other Spanish derivatives, and Filipino society will drastically change.

One of the first successful tasks of the new American government was to introduce English. It was meant to unify what the first Americans here called "a collection of tribes, not a nation." This, of course, introduced a new lifestyle, different ideals. For beyond mere vocabulary, language is the vehicle of culture, the link that cements individuals into a cohesive unity we call "society."

Add to this the successful anti-Spanish "leyenda negra" that the Americans subtly continued. To counter it in some way, to try to erase the popular fiction that Hispanic Christianity was for the old, the weak, the effeminate, the women, the first American Jesuits in the country organized athletic sports in the Ateneo, e. g., boxing. And the archbishop raised his eyebrows, the parents complained, and an order from Rome banned the sport.

Is Castilian necessary? Very much so. Why is Philippine history so distorted and replete with errors? Why are so many individuals who do not deserve the honor considered "national heroes"? The controversy over erroneous history is not yet over, and many schools continue to use age-old texts written by authors who seem not to know that much new research into Philippine history is being published — in Castilian, of course. And why do those who claim to be "interested" in history hardly study our documents gathering dust in our archives? Simply because they do not know Castilian!

We have a triple problem: that of Castilian, paradoxically the instrument that forged more than 7,000 islands into a colony that now values human dignity and social justice; that of English, which now several want restored as the exclusive medium of school instruction to make the country "globally competitive"; that of the national language, which remains very much in inchoate form — for some, e. g., the Visayans, look askance at Tagalog as its base.

How did the Italian dialects develop into the Italian we now know? When a genius used his native Tuscan to write his immortal trilogy, La Divina Commedia. Significantly, our Filipino writers who have won worldwide acclaim wrote in English. What does this signify?

We are still waiting for our genius, a Filipino Dante.

[habagatcentral1]

^^ Geez Animo, you reminded me of my final paper......:runaway: :lol:

[Animo]

^^ He went to Universidad Complutense de Madrid (its like the UP for Spain) for his doctorate. :D I am still wishing to attend that school (still undecided/planning to go study in Madrid amidst the economic problems). :nuts:

P.S.

Just write +AMDG+ on your paper. You'll get extra points! :lol:

[habagatcentral1]

^^ Yup, he said that. He loves Spain and he encourages students (kahit 3 na lang kami sa subject nya, hehehe!!!) to learn Spanish...since I do not have the power to go Madrid, I might as well go Instituto Cervantes de Manila for now. :)

Because he did said that Spanish is very very important for anyone who is to pursue a career in history, especially Philippine history because 300 years we were with Spain. Its one important thing for historians and historians-in-making to understand that 3 centuries of history.

Anyway, he loves Spain and he loves America...down with *censored* and *censored*....whoops!! I'll stop there. :runaway: :nocrook: :lol:

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

^^ This article explains much of my sentiment towards the use of the Spanish language in the country. It is not only a useful language to understand our past as a nation but can also be bridge into a more richer world full of new literature, inspirations, economic allies and much more that it can offer for the Filipinos. It is no longer a language for the elite. No language should be in the first place, because the purpose of using a language is to communicate.

yea bro... but I guess another theory why Spanish did not prosper because after world war II, a lot of Filipinos at that time died and i guess I'd presume they all know Spanish so that's why it did not prosper. so i guess in this times of globalization, maybe its good to revive the language because its no more colonization now diba?!..:cheers::)

[Mercato]

^^ This article explains much of my sentiment towards the use of the Spanish language in the country. It is not only a useful language to understand our past as a nation but can also be bridge into a more richer world full of new literature, inspirations, economic allies and much more that it can offer for the Filipinos. It is no longer a language for the elite. No language should be in the first place, because the purpose of using a language is to communicate.

Roots: Castilian

José S. Arcilla S.J. (http://www.bworldonline.com/BW110308/content.php?id=143)

Spaniards and Mexicans are surprised that Filipinos do not know Castilian. Except a rather small elite, the Filipinos, unlike the South Americans, were never a Castilian-speaking people. When the Americans arrived in 1900, only about 10% of the people knew the language of Cervantes.

The Philippines was too far from Spain — two oceans removed — and only a handful of colonists came. And these remained in Manila to invest in the highly profitable galleon trade. They stayed away from the rural areas, and the only white face the people saw was that of the missionary.

For practical reasons, the missionaries agreed to preach the Gospel through the indigenous tongues. It was much easier for a single missionary to learn several dialects at once, than for an entire community of old and young members to learn Castilian. And in 1594, the Crown divided the country into exclusive linguistic zones for each missionary order. Perhaps unintended, the decree made the missionaries the first linguists, grammarians, authors of dictionaries of the local idioms.

But the Philippines remains a Hispanic country. Its culture, its ideals, its usages are strongly Hispanic, so strong that, if one were to remove this basic element, the people will cease to be Filipino. Remove, for example, "martes," "cememnteryo," "birhen," "meryenda," and other Spanish derivatives, and Filipino society will drastically change.

One of the first successful tasks of the new American government was to introduce English. It was meant to unify what the first Americans here called "a collection of tribes, not a nation." This, of course, introduced a new lifestyle, different ideals. For beyond mere vocabulary, language is the vehicle of culture, the link that cements individuals into a cohesive unity we call "society."

Add to this the successful anti-Spanish "leyenda negra" that the Americans subtly continued. To counter it in some way, to try to erase the popular fiction that Hispanic Christianity was for the old, the weak, the effeminate, the women, the first American Jesuits in the country organized athletic sports in the Ateneo, e. g., boxing. And the archbishop raised his eyebrows, the parents complained, and an order from Rome banned the sport.

Is Castilian necessary? Very much so. Why is Philippine history so distorted and replete with errors? Why are so many individuals who do not deserve the honor considered "national heroes"? The controversy over erroneous history is not yet over, and many schools continue to use age-old texts written by authors who seem not to know that much new research into Philippine history is being published — in Castilian, of course. And why do those who claim to be "interested" in history hardly study our documents gathering dust in our archives? Simply because they do not know Castilian!

We have a triple problem: that of Castilian, paradoxically the instrument that forged more than 7,000 islands into a colony that now values human dignity and social justice; that of English, which now several want restored as the exclusive medium of school instruction to make the country "globally competitive"; that of the national language, which remains very much in inchoate form — for some, e. g., the Visayans, look askance at Tagalog as its base.

How did the Italian dialects develop into the Italian we now know? When a genius used his native Tuscan to write his immortal trilogy, La Divina Commedia. Significantly, our Filipino writers who have won worldwide acclaim wrote in English. What does this signify?

We are still waiting for our genius, a Filipino Dante. I took one look at the author and his article and it reminded me of Liberation Theology (I do not know why) as it was practiced in Latin America. Yes, indeed, Spanish is as relevant today as it was in yesteryears. Liberation theology is a school of theology within Christianity, particularly in the Roman Catholic Church. It emphasises the Christian mission to bring justice to the poor and oppressed, particularly through political activism. Its theologians consider sin the root source of poverty, recognizing sin as capitalism, and capitalism as class war by the rich against the poor. Some of its more famous personalities or those who greatly influenced this school of thought (Social Christianity) were St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Francis of Assissi, Pope Leo XIII, Fr. Gustavo Gutierrez and others like Leo Tolstoy and John Calvin.

Social inequalities persist to this day thus the need for social activism has never gone out of style, I believe. Liberation Theology had a widespread influence in Latin America and especially amongst the Jesuits due to the social injustices of the day. This is where the beauty of Castillian is also brought to the fore with its rich language and its activist dynamism. Contrary to false perceptions in Filipinas, it is not a language only for the elite but on the other hand it had always been meant as a language for the masses. :cheers2:

[esagerato]

how come some of you know the writer of the article?

[demented_pigeon]

how come some of you know the writer of the article?

because he's a pillar of filipino historiography and is currently a professor in ateneo de manila. thank God he wasn't my professor but sadly berns is under his tutelage. Wohhooo long live gealogo and ambeth ocampo.

[demented_pigeon]

I took one look at the author and his article and it reminded me of Liberation Theology (I do not know why) as it was practiced in Latin America. Yes, indeed, Spanish is as relevant today as it was in yesteryears. Liberation theology is a school of theology within Christianity, particularly in the Roman Catholic Church. It emphasises the Christian mission to bring justice to the poor and oppressed, particularly through political activism. Its theologians consider sin the root source of poverty, recognizing sin as capitalism, and capitalism as class war by the rich against the poor. Some of its more famous personalities or those who greatly influenced this school of thought (Social Christianity) were St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Francis of Assissi, Pope Leo XIII, Fr. Gustavo Gutierrez and others like Leo Tolstoy and John Calvin.

Social inequalities persist to this day thus the need for social activism has never gone out of style, I believe. Liberation Theology had a widespread influence in Latin America and especially amongst the Jesuits due to the social injustices of the day. This is where the beauty of Castillian is also brought to the fore with its rich language and its activist dynamism. Contrary to false perceptions in Filipinas, it is not a language only for the elite but on the other hand it had always been meant as a language for the masses. :cheers2:

liberation theologians would correct you regarding political activism. many take it up only as a personal choice and not as a church sanctioned decision. My professor in theology who's an expert and a liberation theologian himself corrected me regarding this. It's a common mistake.

[demented_pigeon]

I took one look at the author and his article and it reminded me of Liberation Theology (I do not know why) as it was practiced in Latin America. Yes, indeed, Spanish is as relevant today as it was in yesteryears. Liberation theology is a school of theology within Christianity, particularly in the Roman Catholic Church. It emphasises the Christian mission to bring justice to the poor and oppressed, particularly through political activism. Its theologians consider sin the root source of poverty, recognizing sin as capitalism, and capitalism as class war by the rich against the poor. Some of its more famous personalities or those who greatly influenced this school of thought (Social Christianity) were St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Francis of Assissi, Pope Leo XIII, Fr. Gustavo Gutierrez and others like Leo Tolstoy and John Calvin.

Social inequalities persist to this day thus the need for social activism has never gone out of style, I believe. Liberation Theology had a widespread influence in Latin America and especially amongst the Jesuits due to the social injustices of the day. This is where the beauty of Castillian is also brought to the fore with its rich language and its activist dynamism. Contrary to false perceptions in Filipinas, it is not a language only for the elite but on the other hand it had always been meant as a language for the masses. :cheers2:

actually a paltry 10% of the Filipino population knew Spanish during the outbreak of the Philippine Revolution, the educated knew how to write and speak spanish. the language of the masses remains to be the local language(s). Hence, Reynaldo Ileto was right in saying that proletarian historiography and writing was largely preserved in the religious writings like the pasyon.

[Mercato]

liberation theologians would correct you regarding political activism. many take it up only as a personal choice and not as a church sanctioned decision. My professor in theology who's an expert and a liberation theologian himself corrected me regarding this. It's a common mistake. :sly: hmmm... there goes my sales pitch. Wuz tryin to endorse a product here. Must we be so fastidious all the time??

Oh, well, yes. During my teens I would read in the papers about Pope JP II tryin to curtail the activities & influence of Lib Theo in the Latin American scene. I can imagine his successor Pope Benedict would likewise do the same thingy. But honestly, I find nothing wrong with its principal tenets. I'd rather see a church that is proactive and involved rather than being so detached and aloof. Again, that is only my opinion. But at least your prof & I share similar beliefs... therefore it is heartening to note that Lib Theo has not lost its relevance yet.
actually a paltry 10% of the Filipino population knew Spanish during the outbreak of the Philippine Revolution, the educated knew how to write and speak spanish. the language of the masses remains to be the local language(s). Hence, Reynaldo Ileto was right in saying that proletarian historiography and writing was largely preserved in the religious writings like the pasyon. Yes. 'tis quite a pity it suffered an image problem in Filipinas. Which is the complete opposite of what took place in the Latin American scene.

[icarusrising]

You may never like it, but I hope you respect my opinion.

Of course, "paggalang" and "pakikipagkapwa-tao" are some of the values I've learned as a Filipino. I was also merely giving my shock and sadness a material form...

[esagerato]

because he's a pillar of filipino historiography and is currently a professor in ateneo de manila. thank God he wasn't my professor but sadly berns is under his tutelage. Wohhooo long live gealogo and ambeth ocampo.

thanks for the info!

actually a paltry 10% of the Filipino population knew Spanish during the outbreak of the Philippine Revolution, the educated knew how to write and speak spanish. the language of the masses remains to be the local language(s). Hence, Reynaldo Ileto was right in saying that proletarian historiography and writing was largely preserved in the religious writings like the pasyon.


yeah, at the early years of American occupation, 60% of the population claimed that they spoke Spanish as a second language. This scenario alarmed the americans, and the rest was history.

[Hajanlet]

Just wondering, do the people here pushing for Spanish actually interested in having it used as a medium of communication or just to gain insights into our own language? To me, learning Spanish is useful for gaining insights into our own language the way that learning Latin is so useful to gain insights into English. Spanish had so much influence with our language that it's hard to complete a sentence without using at least one word that we've borrowed from them. As an actual medium for communication; I think it has lost it's momentum. It would have been viable if it was implemented right after World War 2.

About mother tongues in education, I support using it for explaining the lessons; I don't know about math and science textbooks fully written in Cebuano. It runs serious risk of becoming too deep into the language that it ends up sounding like a different one. In the worst case, authors would be so concerned in making the books purely Cebuano that they'd end up inventing 'new' words by Cebuanizing some English word.

We must be careful not to underestimate the differences between the educated and uneducated forms of a language. A vast majority, including myself, speaks the uneducated form of Cebuano. Just as an uneducated native English speaker would have trouble reading a book because of some 'big' words; a Cebuano math or science textbook would just as incomprehensible to most of us.

We probably need around two generations of preparation before we are ready to actually translate textbooks into our mother tongue. We need an entire generation of people speaking educated Cebuano, producing Cebuano literature from which the next generation would use to hone their vocabulary. We need an entire generation to decide on just how we should incorporate words like isosceles, parallel, perpendicular, similar, congruent, integral, normal, source, sink, etc. into our language. An entire generation to properly absorb the English influences into our language instead of Ceblish, which is the language equivalent of Frankenstein's monster. We need something like the lovechild of both languages.

Only a generation of Cebuanos raised in an environment where Cebuano is a rich-language, instead of one dominated by slang terms and clumsily grafted foreign terms, would be truly prepared for a Cebuano textbook in math and sciences.

I think that just using Cebuano in school lectures is a good start. Right now, speaking Cebuano in class is considered a slip up. I've noticed that lots of engineering, math and science teachers already do this, but it's not really official. They're still supposed to use English.

We should beware, however, that there is a problem in being too successful with using our mother tongues for math and science in that both fields have very international communities. Having a great study is pointless if you can't communicate it your colleagues. Being in a convention with countries where the English is not good is a form of torture. They could be talking about something very interesting and you don't understand anything.

[mAiNsTrEaMhunter]

wala lagi ko kahibalo na naintriga ang sakal, sakali, saklolo...

Senator Pimentel Leads Protests Against 'Ethnic Slur' in a Filipino Movie

Sen. Aquilino Q. Pimentel, Jr., has taken up the cudgels for the numerous viewers who are offended by an “ethnic slur” in the Tagalog film, "Sakal, Sakali, Saklolo." Senator Pimentel said: "The film is conveying a wrong message to Filipinos by denigrating the use of the Visayan language, which is most-widely spoken in the Visayas and large parts of Mindanao. It offends the sensibilities of the Visayans and other non-Tagalog speaking citizens by making them feel they are less Filipino than the Tagalogs. It creates useless hatred in the nation."

To have a background on the controversy, here is Cebuano writer Bobit S. Avila, who wrote in his column, “INSIDE CEBU” last Friday, January 4, 2008:

“Last October, the whole Filipino community here and abroad vehemently expressed their indignation to the racist slur or remark by actress Teri Hatcher on an episode of the hit TV drama series Desperate Housewives where she insulted Filipino doctors who graduated in Philippine medical schools. That slur incensed the entire nation; after all, Filipino medical practitioners are highly sought-after in many Western countries, including the United States. The ABC network has since apologized for the offensive remark, making sure that it would never happen again.

“Well, if you think that since this incident, movie actresses would have stopped making racist remarks, you're dead wrong! Last Christmas, a movie entry in the Manila Film Festival, Sakal, Sakali, Saklolo, from my favorite movie producer Star Cinema featured a conversation between actresses Gloria Diaz and Judy Ann Santos, who was complaining that her child was learning to speak Bisaya from her yaya. She said, "Dapat Tagalog para Pinoy!" Translated, she was practically saying, "You should speak to the child in Tagalog, otherwise, it's not Filipino!" (Editor’s Note: The rest of the column of Mr. Avila is reproduced in its entirety at the end of this article.)

Among those who protested, aside from the officers and members of the DILA Philippines Foundation, Inc. (Defenders of the Indigenous Languages of the Archipelago) was Don Pagusara. Here is what Don sent to this writer:

Date: Jan 2, 2008 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: SAKAL, SAKALI movie racist and discriminatory
To: Manuel Faelnar

“Dear Manny,

“Grabe. . .! Bay, this is outrageous! We should broadcast (or at least register) our protest to this! Dili nato ni palabyon! Please ask Senator Nene Pimentel to find ways by which we can deliver to the concerned people our protest.”

The senator from Mindanao said that he was acting on numerous complaints from viewers offended by the slur. Mr. Pimentel said: "The film conveys a wrong message to Filipinos by denigrating the use of the Visayan language, which is most-widely spoken in the Visayas and large parts of Mindanao. It offends the sensibilities of the Visayans and other non-Tagalog speaking citizens by making them feel they are less-Filipino than the Tagalogs. It creates useless hatred in the nation."

Senator Pimentel said Filipinos, both Tagalog and Bisaya, should be outraged at the film's ethnic slur. "It should elicit the same, if not a louder howl of protest than the one brought against an American television series 'Desperate Housewives' wherein one of the characters made remarks maligning Filipino health professionals."

Mr. Pimentel said further: "The Tagalog joke about how the Bisaya speak Filipino and English with a funny accent. That's fine, we can live with that but to come out in the open and say that the only real Pinoys are those who speak Tagalog is wrong."


The senator mentioned the said episode in the American television series, “Desperate Housewives.” The episode was aired in the United States on Sept. 30, 2007, where the character Susan Mayer, as played by actress Teri Hatcher, told her doctor: "OK, before we go any further, can I check those diplomas? Because I would just like to make sure they are not from some med school in the Philippines."

Senator Pimentel said that Malacañang acted on the “Desperate Housewives” remarks and condemned the incident as equivalent to a racial slur. The Office of the President asked the show's producers to apologize to Filipino medical professionals for putting them down.



* * * * *

Nation: Ugly slurs from Teri Hatcher to Judy Ann!
INSIDE CEBU By Bobit S. Avila
Friday, January 4, 2008


I have always been in the forefront in the fight for respect for all spoken languages in this country and since this movie was already shown in many areas, allow me to say that Star Cinema ought to tell its screenplay writers and especially its actors that they should be extra sensitive in making such racist slurs or uncalled-for remarks that hurt the sensitivities of people living in non-Tagalog-speaking areas.

I would have written this article a week ago, but then few people read anything during the holidays, focusing only on their last-minute shopping. But the die has been cast. When actress Teri Hatcher made that racist remark last October, it sent a loud outcry across the Pacific Ocean that Filipinos would never tolerate such an offensive remark. This latest incident should also send a clear message not only to Star Cinema, but also to other Tagalog film production outfits and film producers as well that we, the Visayan-speaking people in this country, would never tolerate such snide remarks!

If we're not happy with actress Teri Hatcher making offensive remarks against Filipinos, I'd like to make it clear here that Cebuanos, too, won't tolerate a Filipino actress like Judy Ann Santos making insulting remarks about us Cebuanos. If there are no reactions yet from the provincial government of Cebu or Cebuano congressmen, it is only because we were in the middle of the Christmas break or recess. I'm sure that when our elected officials go back to work, this issue will be discussed.

Perhaps now is the time to remind our friends in the Tagalog-speaking areas that when that Portuguese explorer in the employ of King Charles I (he was later known as Charles V, Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire) or the Spanish Crown arrived in the Island of Cebu with the ship Armada de Molucca, he was met by Cebuanos. The settlements along the Pasig River were only discovered when 49 years later Spanish Conquistador Miguel Lopez de Legazpi came back to retrace (and to conquer Manila) the voyage of Magellan on this still unnamed archipelago, which was eventually named after King Philip II of Spain, who authorized the Legazpi expedition.

This brings us to the question, "Are the Bisayans, Kapam*pangans, Ilocanos, Pangasinenses, Bicolanos, Tausogs, Zam*boangueños, Ilonggos and Warays also not considered Pinoys?" Allow me to rephrase that question… "Is the Pinoy name reserved only for Tagalogs? Or should Cebuanos start talking about getting independence from the Philippines because we are not welcomed here anymore?" Judy Ann Santos ought to give us her reply to this query.

My friend Prof. Fred Cabuang, who is in the forefront in the struggle to preserve all the spoken and dying languages in this archipelago, wrote this: "When will we ever learn that being a Pinoy is not measured by one's ability to speak the Tagalog language only? Are the Bisayans, Kapampangans, Pangasinenses, Ilocanos, Bicolanos not worthy of being called 'Pinoys' too? Do our Bisayan athletic heroes who did well in the Southeast Asian Games in Thailand have to learn Tagalog well before they are considered 'Pinoys?'

"What about world-renowned Manny Pacquiao, does he have to learn Tagalog well, too, before he can be called a real 'Pinoy' hero? And surely, nobody will question the pride of Pampanga, our beloved President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo and her father Diosdado Macapagal; did they become 'Pinoys' only when they learned to speak Tagalog?" When will Pinoys learn and realize that the Philippines is a culturally-diverse country speaking different tongues?

[icarusrising]

^^ Just my two cents... The dialog was purposively fashioned in such a way that it would stir a controversy. You know what they say... bad or good publicity, is still publicity...

[Il Tenore]

^^but the publicity that the film made turned out to be a bad one..

and if I were Sen. Pimentel, I want the film to be banned..

[Mercato]

Just wondering, do the people here pushing for Spanish actually interested in having it used as a medium of communication or just to gain insights into our own language? To me, learning Spanish is useful for gaining insights into our own language the way that learning Latin is so useful to gain insights into English. Spanish had so much influence with our language that it's hard to complete a sentence without using at least one word that we've borrowed from them. As an actual medium for communication; I think it has lost it's momentum. It would have been viable if it was implemented right after World War 2.As in most other causes, there are varying degrees of support for Spanish. But it would be safe to say that most Spanish advocates/ hispanistas do want it returned as a medium of communication, desirably on the official level. Just as how it was intended to be in the original First Filipino Republic (re Malolos Constitution). Other major and compelling reasons would be the insights you mentioned thereof, in addition would also be the historical and cultural insights.

If Spanish were not so widely spoken as it really is today, thence one might say it has lost steam & momentum. But such is not the case, it is one of the top 3 biggest and most widely spoken languages in the world. The lone superpower, the United States, is fast becoming a Hispanicized state. US Demographic pundits suggest that in the year 2050, Hispanics will form the majority there. It would be interesting to see the mixing of cultures between that group and our own FilAms.

If we looked back in time in Commonwealth era Cebu, our elders will tell us that the medium of communication back then involved largely Spanish and English along with Cebuano as lingua franca in Cebu.

**

[Mercato]

About mother tongues in education, I support using it for explaining the lessons; I don't know about math and science textbooks fully written in Cebuano. It runs serious risk of becoming too deep into the language that it ends up sounding like a different one. In the worst case, authors would be so concerned in making the books purely Cebuano that they'd end up inventing 'new' words by Cebuanizing some English word.

We must be careful not to underestimate the differences between the educated and uneducated forms of a language. A vast majority, including myself, speaks the uneducated form of Cebuano. Just as an uneducated native English speaker would have trouble reading a book because of some 'big' words; a Cebuano math or science textbook would just as incomprehensible to most of us.

We probably need around two generations of preparation before we are ready to actually translate textbooks into our mother tongue. We need an entire generation of people speaking educated Cebuano, producing Cebuano literature from which the next generation would use to hone their vocabulary. We need an entire generation to decide on just how we should incorporate words like isosceles, parallel, perpendicular, similar, congruent, integral, normal, source, sink, etc. into our language. An entire generation to properly absorb the English influences into our language instead of Ceblish, which is the language equivalent of Frankenstein's monster. We need something like the lovechild of both languages.

Only a generation of Cebuanos raised in an environment where Cebuano is a rich-language, instead of one dominated by slang terms and clumsily grafted foreign terms, would be truly prepared for a Cebuano textbook in math and sciences.

I think that just using Cebuano in school lectures is a good start. Right now, speaking Cebuano in class is considered a slip up. I've noticed that lots of engineering, math and science teachers already do this, but it's not really official. They're still supposed to use English. We share similar sentiments here vis a vis the use of it in the sciences and math. Perhaps only for the reason that no other native language had demonstrated the ability to have these 2 strict disciplines taught entirely in the pure native language. To rush headlong into it just for the romantic notion of patriotism might prove disastrous for our next generation. These things do take generations to take hold. Though I suppose it is quite alright to make use of mother tongues in the other subjects. :)
We should beware, however, that there is a problem in being too successful with using our mother tongues for math and science in that both fields have very international communities. Having a great study is pointless if you can't communicate it your colleagues. Being in a convention with countries where the English is not good is a form of torture. They could be talking about something very interesting and you don't understand anything. This is where our English advocate legislators run into conflict with the nationalists in the north. Their arguments are for the reinforcement of English in our school system but they had seemingly not provided enough study on how the native languages are to take part, or where do our native languages fit into the overall scheme of things.

On the other extreme, the nationalists had indeed presented their program for the native languages plus Filipino/Tagalog. But they had seemingly not been clear as to where the role of English is, or if they intend to relegate English into the far background. In that event, English will also go into a slow decline just as how Spanish had in decades past.

Your last 2 sentences reminded me of this conference hosted in New Delhi, India between high level Indian and Indonesian government functionaries as well as several Western businessmen, held early on this year. An Indonesian cabinet minister made a long winded speech in English, it was reported in the Straits Times. But the syntax or the structure he used was so complicated and lacked cohesiveness that after the long speech, everybody was dumbfounded as to what he meant. A red faced Indonesian President glared at him. Nevetheless, everyone went to the perfunctory applause just for the sake of diplomacy. :lol: