LOS ANGELES | Park Fifth | 820 ft | 76 fl | Pro

[Westsidelife]

Location: 5th Street and Olive Street
Function: Mixed-Use | 732 Units | 218 Hotel Rooms (5 Star Hotel) | Retail | Observation Deck | Public Garden(s)
Developer: Houk Development Company
Architect: Kohn Pedersen Fox Associates (http://www.kpf.com/main.asp) | LEO A DALY (http://www.leoadaly.com/)
Completion: 2010 (Tower One) | 2011 (Tower Two)

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h125/MBenzLover/ParkFifth.jpghttp://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9898/park5threndernewus8.jpg
High Resolution: http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/index.jsp?epi-content=IMAGE_VIEW&newsId=20070515006140&newsLang=en&contentItemId=1604641&moduleId=202776713&ndmConfigId=1000837

High-profile L.A. residential tower unveiled

By Roger Vincent
Times Staff Writer
May 7, 2007

Plans for a $1 billion twin tower condominium complex overlooking Pershing Square park in downtown Los Angeles were unveiled Monday by developers who expect to build the tallest residential building west of Chicago.

At 76 stories, the taller of the two towers would dramatically alter the city's skyline and rival in height the U.S. Bank office skyscraper. The project, named Park Fifth, also calls for a 14-story five-star hotel, fronting on the park across from the historic Biltmore Hotel.

The project joins several other massive downtown developments planned from Staples Center to Bunker Hill. The two blue-green glass condo towers would rise above the hotel, with the shorter tower reaching 43 stories.

"This is the first time in 30 years that all the stars have lined up" enough to start building Park Fifth, said Los Angeles developer David Houk, who began acquiring the land in the 1970s.

The project already has its supporters and its doubters.

Los Angeles City Councilwoman Jan Perry, who supports Park Fifth, says the building will be a boost for downtown.

"It has the great potential of becoming this iconic structure that is high-profile enough" to redefine the city's skyline, she said, and the location is appropriate for dense development.

"It's right smack dab in the midst of places where people work -- the Jewelry Mart, central business district and Bunker Hill," she said. "There's a lots of jobs within a 15-minute walk."

The project would stand at 5th and Olive streets on the site of the former Philharmonic Auditorium, which was razed in the 1980s to make way for an office and hotel complex. The demand for offices collapsed in the early 1990s and downtown has been burdened by an oversupply ever since.

But a burst of residential development in recent years has added thousands of apartments and condominiums downtown and billions of dollars worth of entertainment, shopping and hotel construction is underway or scheduled to start this year. After decades of blacklisting the area, lenders are again making loans for downtown developments.

Houk says he now has committed financial partners, most of the required development permits and has begun work on a new environmental impact report. Construction could start as soon as early 2008 and the smaller tower including the hotel could be open by 2010, he said.

The property would have six floors of underground parking to serve residents and hotel guests.

The project is drawing its doubters from people who wonder where there is a market for another huge new housing complex downtown.

Adding new downtown housing is a risk, market observers said. "There is a huge supply that far exceeds demand" at the moment, said real estate broker Stephen May of Downtown Residential Real Estate, who estimates more than 400 units are for sale.

Prices are holding level, he said, but may come down in future months as more new units hit the market and create competition.

"People wonder if this is the right time" to announce a large housing development, said economist Jack Kyser of the Los Angeles County Economic Development Corp. "Downtown is overbuilt and some other projects are grinding to a halt."

But the housing market could be thriving again by 2010, he said, and the Park Fifth gamble could pay off. A project of that size -- 732 condos and 218 hotel rooms -- "would pull the center of gravity downtown a little further to the east" and boost the appeal of the blocks around long-suffering Pershing Square, Kyser said.

The city's oldest park has long been a draw for the homeless and its walled setting above an underground garage sets it apart from the streets that surround it. Park Fifth's developers hope to help pay for improvements to Pershing Square, said Rich Marr of Brentwood-based Namco Capital Group Inc., one of Houk's financial partners.

"We are laying the groundwork" for possible upgrades to the square, said Perry.

The complex would also be connected directly with the underground Pershing Square subway station. As designed by New York architecture firm Kohn Pedersen Fox, it would wrap around the Title Guarantee Building, a 12-story art deco style office tower completed in 1930 and now being converted to apartments.

Park Fifth would also have a 15th floor garden with two outdoor swimming pools. At street level there would be restaurants and stores. Although the taller tower would have more floors than the 72-story U.S. Bank Tower two blocks away, it would be shorter in height because residential stories are not as high as office stories.

A spokeswoman for Maguire Properties Inc., owner of U.S. Bank Tower, said the company "welcomes the addition to the downtown skyline" and that Park Fifth would "bring critical mass and further enhance the central business district."

Park Fifth developers promise to bring what could be the third five-star hotel for downtown, which hasn't had a top-class hostelry for decades. No operator has been selected for the hotel in Park Fifth, but Mandarin Oriental has agreed to be part of the $2 billion Grand Avenue project, set to break ground this year, and Ritz Carlton will manage a hotel at the $2.5 billion L.A. Live project under construction near Staples Center.

Houk, the Park Fifth developer, is a former owner of the Pasadena Playhouse and bought the Variety Arts Center on South Figueroa Street in downtown Los Angeles last year with the intention of restoring the historic theater and reopening it as an entertainment venue.

Investor Namco Capital Group owns commercial and residential property in Southern California, including the Marriott Los Angeles Downtown hotel. Also investing in the project is Africa Israel Investments Ltd., a publicly traded development company based in Israel.

[Westsidelife]

Site of the proposed project:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/185/450297448_5d300869ed_o.jpg
From Flickr, by caseybenito

[Chi649]

Looks great from what I can see so far. Bout time LA got a new tall.

[Westsidelife]

^Though the tower is 4 stories taller than the US Bank, it won't have a greater height. This is obviously due to the fact that residential floors aren't as high as office floors. The 76 story tower would be the third tallest among the skyline.

[Chi649]

^Though the tower is 4 stories taller than the US Bank, it won't have a greater height. This is obviously due to the fact that residential floors aren't as high as office floors. The 76 story tower would be the third tallest among the skyline.Yeah, I read that in the article. I didn't mean new tallest, but categorically speaking , a new tall (tall but not quite 1000ft) that is not quite a supertall (1000ft and higher) :) .

[soup or man]

It's tall enough. Plus it'll be a ultra modern building sandwiched between 2 early 1900's gems:

Title Guarentee Building on the southeast corner:
http://www.latimemachines.com/P1010218.JPG

And Metro 417 (big building in the pic that Westsidelife posted).

[FROM LOS ANGELES]

I really want to see the outcome of this, because LA hasn't had this kind of project, and less at this scale.

[Westsidelife]

Pershing Square and its vicinity have been so drab for years. The fact that there is even a project proposed for that site excites me, let alone the fact that it's a high-rise project being designed by Kohn Pedersen Fox.

[soup or man]

God..someone needs to redesign Pershing Square NOW. It would look fine in Mexico City (and I think Pershing Square was redesigned by a Mexican architect) but in the middle of downtown LA, it just looks ugly:
http://p.vtourist.com/1609725-Pershing_Square-Los_Angeles.jpg

[Chi649]

Pershing Square and its vicinity have been so drab for years. The fact that there is even a project proposed for that site excites me, let alone the fact that it's a high-rise project being designed by Kohn Pedersen Fox.I forgot to mention that as well, that it is really cool that Kohn Pedersen Fox is designing it. They are quite possibly my favorite architecture firm.

[Westsidelife]

^I'm sure most Chicagoans would say SOM or DeStefano+Partners, which are both Chicago-based. SOM is MY favorite architecture firm. My favorite architect would probably be Cesar Pelli.

[Westsidelife]

God..someone needs to redesign Pershing Square NOW.

There's not much you can really do with it. I do think the best thing would be for it to become a park/central gathering space or I guess a true 'square.' I think there should be a fountain in the center and maybe a few gardens and terraces. Just something unique and representative of Los Angeles that's at least worth visiting.

Pershing Square is very similar to Union Square in SF. Though I'm not really impressed with Union Square because there's nothing really interesting.

[Joey313]

What about that huge Purple block. If they remove that Ill be fine.

[Westsidelife]

Anyways...

Pershing Square is in desperate need of a facelit. Everything about its design is just wrong!

[LANative]

What about that huge Purple block. If they remove that Ill be fine.

I think if that was removed it would look somewhat better but really, Pershing Square needs a makeover.

[Sentient Seas]

I think the towers look good. They will fit well with LA.

[sequoia]

a good residental building, what if I own an aprtment in it! :D

[TICONLA1]

Anyways...

Pershing Square is in desperate need of a facelit. Everything about its design is just wrong!

I agree, I would like to see it leveled and start from scratch, with just trees, shrubs, grass, and maybe a simple water feature, (no fountain) and a few small rock formations, as if it's an area that was left untouched by civilization, it could work, but for the homeless.!!!!

[CITYofDREAMS]

Great looking tower and nice addition to DTLA skyline... it does look very residential to me.

[ZZ-II]

great tower, hopefully they'll build it. LA needs more skyscrapers over 150m i think. the one or other supertall would be also nice :)

[soup or man]

^ I think (in downtown LA's case), infill and ground floor retail is the most important thing. Supertall skyscrapers can wait.

[Mplsuptown]

It has a great retro 60's SoCal look to it. Masterpiece!

[TICONLA1]

great tower, hopefully they'll build it. LA needs more skyscrapers over 150m i think. the one or other supertall would be also nice :)

If Los Angeles ever gets a supertall, it will be mixed use, (like the John Hancock center, Chicago.) with all the out sourcing of clerical jobs and such, a 100 floor office tower would not be viable. Office towers here will stay in the 50 floor range i'll bet, but if the residential market where stay strong for say, 10 years we could see a possible 70+ floor office tower, the next boom in LA will be new office construction, i'll say starting between 2010 and 2012.

[FastFerrari]

i dont care wat it take to get this building in the construction phase...it jus nice to see LA on the thread line....better location than the Ritz building...right downtown to keep it dense and tall....bes of luck to ya LA:)

[soup or man]

^ The Ritz is in a perfect location. It's ment to serve the covention center.

[soup or man]

If Los Angeles ever gets a supertall, it will be mixed use, (like the John Hancock center, Chicago.) with all the out sourcing of clerical jobs and such, a 100 floor office tower would not be viable. Office towers here will stay in the 50 floor range i'll bet, but if the residential market where stay strong for say, 10 years we could see a possible 70+ floor office tower, the next boom in LA will be new office construction, i'll say starting between 2010 and 2012.

Hopefully, they'll revive Cal Plaza 3. That Angel's Crest park or whatever it's called isn't very suitable for parkspace.

[Westsidelife]

^Why were plans for Cal Plaza 3 shelved anyways?

[_zner_]

looks great. green is in!

[soup or man]

^Why were plans for Cal Plaza 3 shelved anyways?

Back in the late 80s/early 90's, downtown LA built too many office towers at right around the same time. From 1989 to 1992, US Bank Tower, 777 Tower, Gas Company Tower, Sanwa Bank, 801 Tower, and Cal Plaza 2 were all built. Downtown had demand for office space just not that much all at once. So Cal Plaza 3, and a few other towers were shelved.

[Taylorhoge]

kudos to LA finally a major highrise in the city.

[ArchiTennis]

i'm trying to do a 3d model to see how it would fit with the skyline

[Westsidelife]

Park Fifth Architectural Landmark Elevates ''Infinity Living'' in Downtown L.A.

Opulent, $1 Billion High-Rise Condominiums to Soar as Tallest Residential Edifice in the West

May 15, 2007

http://mms.businesswire.com/bwapps/mediaserver/ViewMedia?mgid=95733&vid=4http://mms.businesswire.com/bwapps/mediaserver/ViewMedia?mgid=95730&vid=4

LOS ANGELES--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Los Angeles will be looking up in wonder as the spectacular Park Fifth, the tallest residential building west of Chicago, rises in Downtown Los Angeles. Capital partners Africa Israel and Namco Capital Group along with Houk Development Company are creating an architectural landmark in their visionary plans for Park Fifth, the first luxury residential high-rise to be built in Downtown. The Park Fifth project will also include a five-star hotel, to be operated by one of the leading names in luxury hospitality.

In a defining moment of the renaissance that is transforming the heart of Los Angeles, the estimated $1 billion Park Fifth will elevate the Downtown horizon and bring a new, exciting style of opulent “infinity living” to the corner of Fifth and Olive Streets, across from historic Pershing Square. And it’s almost here—Park Fifth’s sales center, which includes life-sized models of its 732 residential units, will open by appointment in summer 2007, with groundbreaking slated for the first quarter of 2008, highlighting the project’s exquisite taste and luxurious atmosphere; the high-tech wealth of comfort, service and amenities; and the fantasy and flair of Park Fifth’s high-energy, super-connected, here-and-now scene.

Park Fifth living opens an infinite variety of possibilities to its residents’ imagination, from cultural activities, to entertainment and nightlife, to active exploration of L.A.’s vibrant Downtown. The sophisticated design’s expansive glass walls will command floor-to-ceiling, unimpeded panoramic views of the city, from the ocean to the mountains. The striking architecture of Park Fifth, designed by the internationally renowned firm of Kohn Pedersen Fox, integrates the refinement of a New York-style luxury residential tower with the golden, quintessentially Southern Californian climate and lifestyle.

"Loft architecture has dominated the large amount of residential development in Downtown Los Angeles in recent years. We believe the city is ready for a new phase of sophisticated urban living that integrates the upscale urban lifestyle with Southern California’s unique character and natural setting,” said Rich Marr, the project manager. "This pioneering project creates a landmark that will stand as a powerful statement of Downtown Los Angeles’ revitalization into a cultural, entertainment and social center.”

The design features a lofty 76-story tower and a 43-story tower, connected by a 15-story residential bridge. The hotel will occupy the lower floors through the bridge area, and the condominium units in the 43-story tower will be identified with the hotel brand and offer their residents access to the hotel’s amenities and services.

While the 76-story tower will attain icon status as the tallest residential building west of Chicago, two mid-rise buildings surrounding a plaza will relate in height and proportion to the early 20th-century commercial buildings of the historic Downtown core. A monumental, eight-story “urban window” through the Fifth Street façade frames a view into the plaza from Pershing Square.

The plaza embodies the vision of Park Fifth’s creators of a Downtown oasis. Without sacrificing sunlight, open air spaces and green foliage, architecture and nature blend in Park Fifth’s plaza, sky gardens, private lanais and terraces. Glass balconies and floor-to-ceiling windows allow barrier-free views of the vastness of the city and its marvelous natural setting.

Park Fifth will offer 732 living units of varying sizes, attuned to the infinitely varied styles of California living. Choices for residents range from $400,000 to $3 million, including:

• Beautifully appointed units, ideal for live/work spaces

• Pied-à-terre suites designed for commuting professionals

• Two-story, 3,000-square-foot residences, and

• All units equipped with state-of-the-art technology, including telecommunications, entertainment, and next-generation “smart house” systems.

Amenities for residents include:

• Two rooftop pools and oversized whirlpools with food and bar service

• An observation deck on the 76-story tower

• Rooftop gardens on the 15th and 36th floors of the 43-story tower with built-in fire pits

• Fitness rooms in each tower

• 20-seat theater viewing rooms, music and video libraries in each tower, and

• Classrooms for wine tastings, cooking classes and other educational seminars.

The Park Fifth Public Plaza Level features a sculpture garden, water features, a casual café, and an elegant restaurant offering indoor and outdoor dining overlooking the park at Pershing Square. The hotel at Park Fifth features a luxurious health spa offering treatments to residents and guests.

The world-class Park Fifth project team includes design by globally renowned architect Eugene Kohn of Kohn Pedersen Fox (KPF), who was responsible for such imaginative venues as the Rodin Museum (Seoul), the award-winning towers and urban courtyard of De Hoftoren (the Hague and the Museum of Modern Art, New York). The Los Angeles office of the Leo A. Daly architectural firm will assist KPF to complete working drawings and provide construction supervision. Interior design is by the leading international firm Hirsch Bedner Associates.

About Park Fifth Development Partners

Park Fifth’s capital partners, Africa Israel and Namco Capital Group, along with development partner Houk Development Company, bring a wealth of experience and capability to the venture. Africa Israel is a publicly traded, Israel-based international development company with a strong U.S. presence with its U.S. headquarters in New York and multiple projects underway in Manhattan, Miami, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Myrtle Beach, South Carolina and now Los Angeles. Brentwood, CA-based Namco Capital Group owns and manages more than 10 million square feet of residential and commercial projects in Southern California and across the U.S. Namco also owns a community bank in Los Angeles, operates an insurance brokerage firm, serves as a large 1031 exchange accommodator and has an active mezzanine financing division. Houk Development Company has been responsible for numerous high-profile projects throughout the Los Angeles area for nearly 30 years. Based in Los Angeles, the company has been a major participant in the Downtown renaissance and currently owns, develops and manages real estate properties in Southern California.

For more information please visit www.parkfifth.com or call (213) 629-0000 for an appointment.

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/index.jsp?epi-content=NEWS_VIEW_POPUP_TYPE&newsId=20070515006140&ndmHsc=v2*A1176721200000*B1179319250000*DgroupByDate*J2*L1*N1000837*ZPark%20Fifth&newsLang=en&beanID=202776713&viewID=news_view_popup

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h125/MBenzLover/ParkFifth.jpg
High Resolution: http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/index.jsp?epi-content=IMAGE_VIEW&newsId=20070515006140&newsLang=en&contentItemId=1604641&moduleId=202776713&ndmConfigId=1000837

[Joey313]

so the Plaza is like on the second floor?

[Westsidelife]

^Joey, there is no plaza. Park Fifth is an infill project. Notice how the entire lot is made use of.

Project with plazas feature open public spaces right off the street and/or more than one tower.

Though this project has two towers, I really wouldn't consider it a plaza or a center. Though it's not 100% infill either because there isn't just one building that covers the entire lot.

[soup or man]

It's more like a courtyard than a plaza.

[Joey313]

the open space or courtyard looks like its on second floor. which to me is better than have it on the street level.

[Fern~Fern*]

I don't think Pershing Square is that bad looking. It's hard to understand at first but then you appreciate it...

[soup or man]

Opulent, $1 Billion High-Rise Condominiums Launch 'Infinity Living' in L.A.

From Our Advertisers

http://www.downtownnews.com/content/articles/2007/05/21/development/estate05.jpg

Look up, Los Angeles! In a defining moment for the city's Downtown renaissance, the estimated $1 billion Park Fifth will soon transform the Los Angeles skyline as the tallest residential building West of Chicago.

With Park Fifth's soaring heights and measureless possibilities for exciting urban lifestyles, "infinity living" comes to L.A. Standing at the corner of Fifth and Olive streets, facing historic Pershing Square. The spectacular Park Fifth will bring an all-new, vertical California lifestyle to the vibrant Downtown mix.

Capital partners, Africa Israel and Namco Capital Group, along with development partner Houk Development Company, are creating an architectural landmark in their visionary plans for Park Fifth.

"We believe Los Angeles is ready to embrace a more sophisticated, upscale, urban way of living that adapts the New York lifestyle seamlessly to Southern California's unique character and natural setting," said Rich Marr, project manager. "Sparkling in full sunlight and rich in lush greenery, Park Fifth will be a Downtown oasis that epitomizes Downtown Los Angeles' revitalization into a cultural, entertainment and social center," he added.

The world-class team for Park Fifth includes the globally renowned design architectural firm of Kohn Pedersen Fox, the Los Angeles office of Leo A. Daly architectural firm, and the leading international interior design firm Hirsch Bedner Associates. Groundbreaking is slated for the first quarter of 2008.

Park Fifth's striking, high-tech design of concrete-and-steel construction features a lofty 76-story tower and a 43-story tower, connected by a 15-story residential bridge. A grand staircase connects the principal pedestrian entrance of the 43-story tower to Park Fifth's defining feature, the plaza above. Two 14-story mid-rise structures surrounding a plaza create street life and activity.

The architect's vision creates a progression through outdoor spaces of varying scales and levels of privacy, from the street-level park (public) to an elevated plaza (semi-public) to a 15th floor roof garden (semi-private) to the individual units and terraces (private). The Park Fifth project will also include a 218-room, five-star hotel, to be operated by one of the leading names in luxury hospitality.

Flanked by the spacious lobbies of the residential towers and hotel, the public plaza dazzles visitors with a sculpture garden, water features and a casual cafe, and cascades down to an elegant restaurant offering indoor and outdoor dining overlooking the park at Pershing Square.

In late June, Park Fifth's showroom will open by appointment, displaying life-sized models of its 732 residential units and a "virtual tour" providing a fascinating glimpse of Park Fifth's nature-embracing design, exquisite taste, wealth of comfort and services, and setting among urban attractions.

Park Fifth offers unprecedented opulence, fantasy and flair within the brilliant complex's high-energy, super-connected, here-and-now scene. The glass-clad towers will command breathtaking, unimpeded views of the city, from the mountains to the ocean through glass balconies and floor-to-ceiling windows.

Choices for residents range from $400,000 to $3 million and from live/work lofts and pied-à-terre suites to two-story, 3,000-square-foot residences. All units feature generous outdoor living spaces, attuned to the infinitely varied styles of California living, and private lanais, terraces and sky gardens. Every unit is equipped with state-of-the-art technology, from telecommunications and entertainment to next-generation, "smart house" systems.

As befits its towering stature on the L.A. horizon, Park Fifth provides an unmatched degree of luxury and convenience for its residents. Three concierges are at their service in the three residential and hotel lobbies. At the lobby level, services include valet parking, car rental and a secure pet walk for four-footed residents, as well as a host of other day-to-day needs.

For pleasure and entertaining, Park Fifth will have an observation deck, rooftop gardens with nighttime lighting and built-in fire pits, multiple party rooms, a tiered classroom for wine tastings, cooking classes and seminars, and two rooftop pools and whirlpools with food and bar service. Both towers offer 20-seat theater viewing rooms, music and video libraries for residents and fitness centers with the latest in fitness equipment. The hotel at Park Fifth features a luxurious health spa.

For more information on Park Fifth, visit parkfifth.com or call (213) 629-0000.

page 31, 5/21/2007
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[redspork02]

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Park_Fifth_1&action=edit

anyone wants to start on this, someone who know about this project??

[Fern~Fern*]

^^ Article not found...

[redspork02]

^^ Article not found...

RIGHT!! its not there cuz no one has made one, duh...:bash:
im asking someone, with good info to begin the park fith article..

[Racingfreak]

A nice tower!, What's the height in meters?

[asif iqbal]

the open space or courtyard looks like its on second floor. which to me is better than have it on the street level.

Joey your tidal wave signature is freggin halaroius man!!:lol:

[chjbolton]

Skyline impact?
Anyone up for making a quick rendering?

[chjbolton]

Skyline impact?
Anyone up for making a quick rendering?

[redspork02]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Fifth_Towers

FOUND IT!!:banana: :cucumber: :tyty: :cheers1: :hi: :lurker: :drunk: :poke: :carrot:

[BMXican]

you're a hero ... :lol:

[soup or man]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Fifth_Towers

FOUND IT!!:banana: :cucumber: :tyty: :cheers1: :hi: :lurker: :drunk: :poke: :carrot:

We're proud of you.

:nuts:

[Jarenz]

Good news indeed

[valhum]

such coolness :banana:

[redspork02]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Fifth_Towers

FOUND IT!!:banana: :cucumber: :tyty: :cheers1: :hi: :lurker: :drunk: :poke: :carrot:

We're proud of you.

:nuts:

:speech:Thank You :bowtie:
I would like to thank all u guys for the Support (TEAR :cry: )
never could have donit with out u!!!!:nuts:

[soup or man]

Good news indeed

Sigh..did you really need to quote the entire article just to post 3 words?

:ohno:

[calmuse]

I'm not usually impressed with mere height and scale or conspicuous consumption--leave that to Dubai. But this is a beautiful project and worthy of L.A., rather than just another massive structure that could have been thrown up anywhere.

I love the terraces, rooftop garden and the recessed plaza--and the way the project makes imaginative use of the entire site and would contribute to downtown L.A.'s skyline.

I'm not going to get into the Pershing Square tiff, but its architect (if it hasn't already been mentioned) was Ricardo Legorreta.

[moneytown boy]

i personaly like pershing square. its funky and out there. something colorful in the middle of a concrete jungle. a stage or something would help though. make people gather.

[djm19]

we already have a concrete jungle though, its called the REST of downtown!

[cello1974]

A great one!!!

[soup or man]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1373/592099173_bcc98f1e75_b.jpg

[unmentioned]

I actually really love this project, I think it's striking and beautiful and definitely a compliment to the skyline.

However, the one thing I dislike is that the plaza is not at street level. It's almost pretentious, it doesn't engage or activate the street level, and it's almost as if it's saying, "the rest of the city is not worthy of our open spaces."

Other than that, it's an exciting prospect.





oh, and Threehundred - Inland Empire. Represent.

[Joey313]

I think it was made that way so it can overlook Pershing Square.

>I actualy like this project because the plaza is NOT at street level
Pershing square is across the street why need a plaza. Almost every highrise in L.A has a street level plaza. I dont think L.A needs more........!!!!!!!

[soup or man]

oh, and Threehundred - Inland Empire. Represent.


Yeah ok.

[wiki]

wow, the best design i've seen for l.a

[soup or man]

From SSP:

Ok heres a treat for everyone.

I made a quick model of Park5th in Google sketchup, inserted it into the Google Earth LA skyline. (I made most of the LA buildings in the pics too) :)

Its going to be much more prominent that I thought!!

Unobstructed from the Transamerica Center Resturant!
http://i8.tinypic.com/5y9hrbs.jpg

Very Nice!
http://i9.tinypic.com/4lxxpnp.jpg

Very Prominent from Dodger Stadium!
http://i13.tinypic.com/4vq1k7p.jpg

Very VERY noticable from Staples Center!
http://i11.tinypic.com/5x4n62v.jpg

My favorite view, fills in the Gap between Bunker Hill and Downtown.
http://i14.tinypic.com/4l6mg4m.jpg

My only Complaint is that the tower is lined up with US Bank, so eather it Blocks US Bank, or US Bank blocks Park5th.

If anyone wants anymore views just ask!

[Dale]

That's what I'm talking about!

[Westsidelife]

Just a little something I whipped up. It's the best I could do.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h125/MBenzLover/LosAngelesSkylineParkFifthcopy.jpg
From PBase, by STERLING

[soup or man]

From SSP:

Incase you havent seen, here are some renders I made for Park 5th, I'm really excited for this project :yes:

This shows the elevation of the nearby towers, due to the height of Bunker Hill, the Tower looks much smaller.
http://i17.tinypic.com/52p778g.jpg

From Inside the City.
http://i17.tinypic.com/4qs8imh.jpg

Best for last! From Pershing Square.
http://i15.tinypic.com/507uckl.jpg

[-Corey-]

Nice design..

[Excelsior!]

LA, the next big thing!

[Sentient Seas]

I'm not incredibly fond of the design, but at the same time, it's sort of interesting. I think it will suit LA just fine.

[Rizzato]

it fits in at a nice spot on the skyline!
hopefully the color will be more intense than the render

[romanamerican]

perfect for LA's skyline. but I also think it needs taller building, some superetalls (although I think the earthquake situation is serious, so it would need a lot of thinking).

[soup or man]

Things are looking up. Lol.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9237/img8790rt5.jpg
Photo: LosAngelesBeauty from SSP

[xXFallenXx]

i was just thinking about this.................... L.A. is almost 4 times the size of dubai but dubai is building all the supertalls. i just saw a report that said dubai is on the edge of a fault so a person cant say L.A. doesnt build skyscrapers because of earthquakes. we need to build some monsters here like in dubai. ( jk kinda)

[soup or man]

No we don't. Let Dubai do whatever they want. Why should LA compete?

[xXFallenXx]

im not saying they should compete, just that i wish they would build more, taller.

[Fern~Fern*]

im not saying they should compete, just that i wish they would build more, taller.


^^ Compete w/ Dubai, Oh come now!

Take away the Highrises and the A380's and your stuck with desert sand:ohno:.... on the other hand Los Angeles has too much to even compete with them!!! So why brag about a few scrapers!

[soup or man]

im not saying they should compete, just that i wish they would build more, taller.

Infill first young Padawan.

[44p]

WOW! awesome project! :cheers:

[xXFallenXx]

yeah, i know..............still bugs me though.

[soup or man]

Remember this: skyscrapers does not a city make.

But they're nice.

[xXFallenXx]

yeah, L.A. definately has more to offer than a city like dubai.

[soup or man]

This is true. Lol.

[ABQ_X-PAT]

I love skyscrapers and am a resident of LA as well as San Francisco. This particular design as it stands... is well... UGLY. It looks like something out of 1960's San Francisco with those ugly towers near Nob Hill.

[soup or man]

Ugly how?

[Robert Stark]

I love skyscrapers and am a resident of LA as well as San Francisco. This particular design as it stands... is well... UGLY. It looks like something out of 1960's San Francisco with those ugly towers near Nob Hill.



I actually live the midcentury modern designed towers on SF's Russian and Nob Hills but I gues the locals don't.

[TICONLA1]

Renderings never do any project justice, i think in the case of this tower, the shear scale of the tower will offset it's apperent "fatness" and also the renderings do lack the true color of the cladding matierials, opinions will change once it's built i'm sure.
At first, looking at the renderings of One Rincon, I did not care for the cladding, but now that it's up it looks great.

[soup or man]

Wasn't this building first proposed in the late 1970's with roughly the same design?

[TICONLA1]

Wasn't this building first proposed in the late 1970's with roughly the same design?

As far as i know, no, in the early 1980's after Houk finished acquiring the property, the Gruen Assoc. came up with a plan for a 26 story hotel, and a 34 story office tower, to be called Pershing Square Center, and also before Houk put all the property together, around 1974, the people who owned the lot along 5th street, next to the Title Guarantee building came up with a plan for a 60 story mixed use tower (15 or 20 storys of office and the rest residential) but this plan was never formaly announced, I found out about it becouse it was submitted as a possible replacment for the World Trade Center, the current plan is definately a new plan.

The only thing about the Gruen plan and the current plan that are similar is the massing. (due to zoning i'll bet!)

[soup or man]

^ You sure know your stuff.

[FastFerrari]

is this gonna have a better location than the Ritz

[soup or man]

What do you mean?

[ramses241]

Any new news on this project?

[Westsidelife]

^ It's set to break ground in March of 2008.

[Westsidelife]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2263/1713518844_4a12d21380_o.png

[Joey313]

Park Fith Is magical

[xXFallenXx]

Nice!

[xlchris]

Beautiful!!

[ZZ-II]

^ It's set to break ground in March of 2008.

cool, finally a new tall tower for LA

[TICONLA1]

This last rendering is great, it gives a better scale to the tower(s)

[Skyman]

Awesome tower

[nygirl]

So whats the story with this now? They are saying it's getting canned on curbedLa.com

[Westsidelife]

^^ Yeah, it's unforunate news. But until we receive further information regarding Park Fifth's financial state, I'm assuming this to be nothing more than a rumor.

[Westsidelife]

Affluent Asians set up house in downtown L.A.

By Kemp Powers
October 28, 2007

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) -

...

PARK FIFTH GOING QUICKLY

...

The anticipated growth has recently sparked some eye-opening projects. The largest is Park Fifth, a 890-foot (270-metre), $1 billion high-rise condominium that will house 726 residential units ranging in price from $400,000 to $5 million.

The building, to be completed in 2010, has been in presales for just over two months and 50 percent of the units have been sold, according to developers.

Cipolloni recalled a gathering hosted by a Korean agent that resulted in 40 people each putting down $10,000 deposits to reserve units in Park Fifth.

...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1539249620071029?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews&rpc=22&sp=true)

[Westsidelife]

From SSP:

I heard from someone inside the project that park fifth is indeed dead. They sent a letter out to their partners (construction, design firm...) that the project is done. Also heard that the building was not even close to half reserved. Hopefully whatever reservations were secured will move on to other projects...evo, ritz.

[xXFallenXx]

Hmm..........bummer.
:badnews:

[Westsidelife]

We should wait for some sort of official announcement before we jump the gun and declare it dead.

[Westsidelife]

Park Fifth Responds to Curbed's Reports of Its (Funding) Demise

Yesterday Curbed posted a rumor (http://la.curbed.com/archives/2007/11/park_fifth_rumo.php) that the Park Fifth project had lost its main investor and fired its sales staff and marketing director. While aspects of the post were true -- the project is restructuring some of its financing -- the fundamentals were simply incorrect. Park Fifth Project Director Rich Marr sent a reply over to Curbed rebutting their information and attempting to instill a little accuracy in what's out there. A copy of that response found its way into the blogdowntown mailbox as well.

I try not to mix work and this site, but Cartifact is providing an interactive map kiosk in the Park Fifth sales center (which I might add is really impressive). Last week I was over with VP of Marketing Erika Nelson doing some final testing. I can assure you that she's still gainfully employed and about to be moving her office into the sales center.

Bottom-line: The project's construction schedule remains unaltered and there's lots of interest in both buying and in investing.

Rich Marr's full response after the jump...

Q&A with Rich Marr Regarding Status of Park Fifth

Q: What is the status of Park Fifth?

A: Park Fifth is progressing on schedule. Over the last few months, we have seen significant progress in the development of Park Fifth. We have achieved major milestones in the areas of permitting, pre-construction planning and sales center development. Tremendous excitement and momentum have been created for Park Fifth, resulting in 348 reservations to date - even before we open our sales center.

As we enter real estate’s traditionally quiet fourth quarter, we have begun a short phase where we are restructuring internal operations in order to move forward in an effective manner and continue to progress on target. This internal restructuring will better poise us as we move forward into the construction phase. We will continue to focus on securing all necessary permits and approvals and completing the EIR process.

The design of the project, groundbreaking and completion will not be affected by the restructuring. Groundbreaking is still scheduled for the first half of 2008 and completion of the first tower is set for 2010.

Q: Is it true that Park Fifth lost its main investor?

A: No, Park Fifth’s main investors remain involved in the project and are currently focused on securing finals permits and completing the EIR process.

Q: Is Park Fifth looking for new investors?

A: Internal restructuring could include the addition of a new investor or a potential change of ownership, but this would not affect the design or timing of the project.

Q: Will the internal restructuring affect the timing of the project?

A: No, Park Fifth is progressing on schedule. Completion of the first tower is set for 2010, while the second tower will be completed in 2011. Our process of internal restructuring will not affect our progress or timing of the project.

Q: Are you still accepting new reservations?

A: Yes, Park Fifth is accepting new reservations.

Q: Will the Sales Center still open?

A: Yes, the Sales Center will be complete within the next few weeks. We are putting the final touches on what will be a truly spectacular representation of what living at Park Fifth will be like. The Sales Center will include two complete model homes, virtual tours of both towers and many interactive features to help prospective buyers visualize the home they are interested in purchasing.

Q: What is the status of Park Fifth’s sales team?

A: The Park Fifth sales and marketing team remains active and in place. The team will complete its move into the Sales Center by mid-November and will begin offering tours shortly after that. The team can be reached at 213-629-0000 or via email at angus@parkfifth.com.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: blogdowntown (http://blogdowntown.com/blog/2939)

[Westsidelife]

Park Fifth Denies Investor Turmoil

News Brief

Despite recent speculation by several Downtown sources that the mega residential development known as Park Fifth is facing an investor shakeup, project officials said the tower is moving forward. According to a written statement by Park Fifth Project Manager Rich Marr, the original investors remain Africa Israel, Namco Capital Group, Inc. and Houk Development Company. "As we enter real estate's traditionally quiet fourth quarter, we have begun a short phase where we are restructuring internal operations in order to move forward in an effective manner and continue to progress on target," Marr said. "Internal restructuring could include the addition of a new investor, but this would not affect the design or timing of the project." Speculation was heightened recently when several sales and marketing positions were eliminated. Marr said the project was simply overstaffed. To date, officials said 348 reservations have been taken for the condo project fronting Pershing Square at Fifth and Olive streets, and the $5 million sales center was set to open last week in the Gas Company Tower. Groundbreaking is still anticipated for the first half of 2008, and completion of the first tower is set for 2010. At 76 stories, the project is expected to have the tallest residential tower in the West.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Los Angeles Downtown News (http://www.downtownnews.com/articles/2007/11/12/news/news_briefs/at05.txt)

[FastFerrari]

Nice building. Unique design by any standards, but would love for L.A. to join in the booms going round the US.

[eddie88]

vvery nice looking building

[jamude18]

very nice!

[mbuildings]

stunning!!!!!

[Westsidelife]

Park Fifth Not Breaking Ground As Planned, After All

January 30, 2008

After all of the controversy (http://la.curbed.com/archives/2007/11/park_fifth_rumo.php), guesswork and rebuttals (http://blogdowntown.com/blog/2939) surrounding Park Fifth (http://www.parkfifth.com/) and its funding status last year, Houk Development Company still contended that their 76-story Phase I residential skyscraper was set to break ground in the first quarter of 2008 (http://www.downtownnews.com/articles/2007/09/17/development/estate05.txt).

Since that time, a breathtaking $5 million sales center has opened, over 300 reservations have been signed, and progress has been made with permitting and planning.

Things are “looking up (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=3010185&postcount=1423),” right?

Well maybe, but not for a while. Stephanie Holbrook, a spokesperson for the Park Fifth project, tells us today that groundbreaking has been pushed back to the third quarter of 2008.

Even with the significant delay, Holbrook asserts that the first tower is still on track to meet its 2010 completion.

Our experience tells us otherwise. Though, the developers’ continued broadcasting of the luxury development over an extensive marketing campaign is positive sign of their dedication to see it off the ground.

Park Fifth is the latest in a growing list of Downtown projects that have experienced setbacks due to rising construction costs, an unsteady housing market, and problems with financing: LA Central, 1027 Wilshire (http://www.angelenic.com/1027-wilshire-developers-remain-optimistic-but-need-financing/), South Figueroa (http://www.angelenic.com/south-figueroa-formerly-jardin-pushed-back-a-year/), and the Grand Avenue Project (http://www.angelenic.com/3-billion-predicament-grand-avenue-project-delayed/) are some of the more notable ones.

We’re waiting to hear back from Holbrook about the cause of the delay and will keep our fingers crossed for a third-quarter groundbreaking. The last thing we want to see is this iconic vision reincarnated in five years as a twin 15-story dud.

The project’s second phase, a 43-story tower that will be home to an unnamed five-star hotel, has no construction date set.

-$3 Billion Predicament: Grand Avenue Project Delayed (http://www.angelenic.com/3-billion-predicament-grand-avenue-project-delayed/)
-South Figueroa (Formerly Jardin) Pushed Back a Year (http://www.angelenic.com/south-figueroa-formerly-jardin-pushed-back-a-year/)
-A Peek Inside the Park Fifth Sales Center (http://blogdowntown.com/blog/2977) (Blogdowntown)
-Rumor Mill: Park Fifth Project in Trouble? (http://la.curbed.com/archives/2007/11/park_fifth_rumo.php) (Curbed)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2263/2064232772_e68c53dc6d_b.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: angelenic (http://www.angelenic.com/park-fifth-not-breaking-ground-as-planned-after-all/)

[nygirl]

That sucks. Its the times though like the article said. So by summer or summers end we will get to see ground breaking? The design, I like especially the suttle greyish-green glass facade. The fact that its green is cool and a significant height but maybe they will make a few minor adjustments. Only on the cube at the top. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the helipad infront of it?

[Colonel Cadillac]

Posts 101 and 102 typify the tabloidish nature of SSC. One says 50% sold and the next 'project is dead.' Looks like its just delayed. Also, what about the 'City House' res tower project? PLease don't just say 'it's dead' b/c you haven't heard anything much and you didn't like it to begin with! I hate it when people do that. I want a printed source.

[nygirl]

Holy crap I forgot all about city house.

[xXFallenXx]

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=420777&page=9&highlight=City+House

[TICONLA1]

Posts 101 and 102 typify the tabloidish nature of SSC. One says 50% sold and the next 'project is dead.' Looks like its just delayed. Also, what about the 'City House' res tower project? PLease don't just say 'it's dead' b/c you haven't heard anything much and you didn't like it to begin with! I hate it when people do that. I want a printed source.

I don't go with "anything" i hear unless a printed source is shown.

However i can say that construction in Los Angeles is nothing like Chicago or New York City, (as i wish it were) I've been involved in four building booms, over 3 decades, starting in 1979, and i could put it like this to give you an example of how things work out here, if 40 proposed projects come to the city, 10 will for some reason or the other, have to be revised, 30 will get approval, and maybe 10 will actually get built, nothing is built on speculation, not even office towers, developers out here are of the no risk type, (i use the term "scared") and won't build anything unless leasing is well above 50%, no other west coast city operates like this, and i don't fully understand why.

But i do know that in some cases the city simply asks developers for far more concessions, (IE, traffic, pedestrian, and even non project related) than most developers are willing to give, meaning the price is higher to build in this city, i could name 20 to 30 projects in downtown alone, off the top of my head that were never built, and the Park Fifth project, is the 3rd plan in 30 years for this site.

Also, no project (that i know of) is ever delayed more than twice, and most that are (delayed twice, that is) aren't built......

[milquetoast]

disgusting

[TICONLA1]

That sucks. Its the times though like the article said. So by summer or summers end we will get to see ground breaking? The design, I like especially the suttle greyish-green glass facade. The fact that its green is cool and a significant height but maybe they will make a few minor adjustments. Only on the cube at the top. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the helipad infront of it?

Actually, the helipad is on top of it. there are two (2) additional floors above the "roofline" that most likely house tenent amenitys, and the cube is a 6 story mechanical room, and i don't know for sure, but it may also contain a tuned mass damper.

[nygirl]

Does cityhall have a helipad? You could still do something with a building's crown even while accomodating room for a helipad. I'm thinking more like 601 South Figueroa st., the Gas Company Tower, 2 Cal plaza, and Library Tower. I'd like to think something can be done in the meantime with the design of the top of the building. The mechanical cube just doesn't do the rest of the building any justice. Despite the cube it is a really great looking proposal.

[TICONLA1]

No, the city hall does not have one, helicopters did not come into practical use until around 1948, and city hall went up in 1928. in the early 1960's the city lifted the 150' (12 story) maximum building height restriction, (part of the reason you could only build 12 floors was that this is the maximum that a fire truck hook and ladder could reach, the other two reasons, earthquakes, and (believe it or not) unobstructed views of the mountains) once lifted, the helicopter pad requirement was added to the building code.

In 1986 when the now Aon tower caught fire, the fire dept. could not land on the roof becouse the heat and updraft turbulance was to intense, which is totally common in such a situation, i thought the city would revise the code, but it did not.

As for the asthetics of the Park Fifth roof, i agree that it could be done better, perhaps a pad that cantalevers like on the 550 S. Hope st. tower, (one of the reasons i like that tower) but out here there is one main reason for large blank areas on top of buildings, this being, (again, believe it or not) signage.

I'm betting that if constructed, this tower will have a large offset "PF" in coligraphy, on that area.

Here's a shot of the helipad on the 550 S. Hope st. tower.

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh30/TICONLA2/pix20080203/dtla017.jpg

[Westsidelife]

Park Fifth Secures CRA Approval

News Brief

The Community Redevelopment Agency on Thursday, April 17, granted key approvals to developers of the proposed Park Fifth project north of Pershing Square. The proposed development - to include a 76-story tower and a 44-floor tower connected by a 15-story residential building, a 212-room hotel and retail and restaurant space - is the first major project to utilize the city's Transfer of Floor Area Rights Ordinance. The TFAR ordinance, adopted last year, allows Downtown developers to purchase "unused" space above the Convention Center to build taller, denser buildings than zoning restrictions currently allow. Money generated from the sales goes to local nonprofits and a public benefits fund. The transfer plan approved by the CRA included a description of the developer's public benefit obligations, which include a total of $14 million in payments to, among others, the Downtown Women's Center, the Skid Row Housing Trust and the Department of Recreation and Parks for improvements to Pershing Square. The development team, led by David Houk, will also build community benefits into the project, such as a pedestrian connection to the nearby Metro Red Line station and two major public art displays in collaboration with the Museum of Contemporary Art. The CRA Thursday also approved the project's Environmental Impact Report and related elements. Houk said that the approval marks a significant milestone. "It's absolutely necessary. It's a big target and a big goal," he said. The project is expected to go before the City Council on May 7, and if approved will then go to Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa. Houk said he expects to break ground by the fourth quarter of this year.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Los Angeles Downtown News (http://www.downtownnews.com/articles/2008/04/21/news/news_briefs/at01.txt)

[giovani kun]

great news .. can't wait to see this one rising :)

[Westsidelife]

Council Approves Park Fifth (http://www.downtownnews.com/articles/2008/05/19/news/news_briefs/at05.txt)

News Brief

The City Council on Tuesday, May 13, approved the 76-story Park Fifth project. The $1.3 billion complex, which is being developed by a team led by David Houk, would include a 76-story tower and a 44-floor tower housing a hotel and condominiums, connected by a 15-story residential building, plus retail and restaurant space. It would rise on a lot north of Pershing Square. Park Fifth is the first major development to utilize the city's Transfer of Air Rights Ordinance, a measure adopted last year that allows Downtown developers to purchase "unused" space above the Convention Center to build taller, denser buildings than zoning restrictions currently allow. "In my mind, it's been entitled all along," said Houk, "but it's a relief to have it formalized." Houk has said he expects to break ground by the fourth quarter of this year.

[nygirl]

Thats great news. It didn't really take that long to get the council to approve and construction to begin in only a matter of months is not too shabby at all. This one would have taken 10 more months to get the approval in Ny ( depending on where it was being built) longer in other cases.

[Excelsior!]

Good news - nice design, good height. It will certainly stand out as a residential building though.

[Westsidelife]

BREAKING: Unstoppable Park Fifth Gets Entitled, Loan Commitment (http://la.curbed.com/archives/2008/06/breaking_unstop.php)

By jwilliams
June 26, 2008

It's a tiny step for mankind, and a huge leap for Downtown. The attached presser (after the jump) announces that Park Fifth (http://www.parkfifth.com/) has received its entitlements and has a construction loan commitment from Beijing Construction Engineering Group (God bless you Chinese people). We know, we know. We can hardly believe it either. The 76-story mixed use project (http://la.curbed.com/archives/2007/05/really_big_towe.php) grows ever closer to actually breaking ground, at which point our head will spin around and fly off our body leading to our untimely death and burial under the building's cornerstone.

June 26, 2008


Dear Curbed,

Today is truly a RED LETTER DAY for Park Fifth. This is the day that ALL of our formal approvals from the City of Los Angeles are absolutely FINAL. Over the past three years, we have been through an extensive process that involved obtaining approvals from the Community Redevelopment Agency, Planning Department, City Council and Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa.

Many of these actions had appeal periods associated with them, but as of today, ALL of those appeal periods have expired. That makes it official: Park Fifth is FULLY ENTITLED and ready to move forward.

Approvals Bring Good News
These actions also finalize some very important aspects of Park Fifth:

1. We will fund almost $10 million toward the renovation and improvement of Pershing Square. This park is our front yard and we are committed to making it an attractive, open and friendly environment for the entire neighborhood.

2. From the outset, we have committed to making Park Fifth an environmentally sensitive project. As part of our approvals, Park Fifth will achieve the LEED Silver standard for Green Building or better.

3. Park Fifth will have a direct connection into an MTA station on the Red Line, which will provide our residents with access to the station without going outside.

Construction Lender

Park Fifth is pleased to announce that it has secured a construction loan commitment from Beijing Construction Engineering Group (BCEG). This international firm has an extensive background in large projects, having built many of the venues that you will soon see on TV for the upcoming Olympics. Most recently, they have come to the United States and are in the process of funding two large projects in Chicago, both of which involve hotels and residential condominium homes. That makes them the perfect fit for Park Fifth and their involvement will allow us to move forward with groundbreaking later this year. We will be working through all the details over the next several months and we are very pleased to have them on board.

As always, please feel free to call our Sales Office or make an appointment to visit so that we may answer any questions you may have.

Sincerely,

Rich Marr
Project Manager

[brickellresidence]

is park fifth going to be taller than US bank tower.

[xXFallenXx]

^ Yes, by 140 ft. Not really.

[Westsidelife]

^ Erm, no, Park Fifth isn't going to be taller.

[xXFallenXx]

^ It was sarcasm (I thought it was obvious it wouldn't be) ......maybe i should have said this:
^ Yes, by 140 ft.

[Westsidelife]

^ Sarcasm is hard to detect on an internet chat forum. Forgive me.

[xXFallenXx]

^ It's not your fault at all. I should have been clearer. :)