I've just been reading about Leeds & it's 54 storey tower, Lumiere, which is about to rise in that city very soon, & it got me thinking.

With interest rates due to start escalating over the coming months & years, do you think that the residential towers currently under construction in Birmingham, including the forthcoming V Building, will be the last to be built here for another generation to come?

Has Birmingham missed the boat again, for perhaps another 30 years maybe, to acquire it's very own cluster of skyscrapers?

Have Manchester & Leeds both pipped Birmingham again at the final hurdle?

Discuss.

^^ You ok FLD? You're normally Mr. Optimism? What's with all the doom and gloom all of a sudden?

^^ You ok FLD? You're normally Mr. Optimism? What's with all the doom and gloom all of a sudden?

I've got a hefty mortgage!!

I'm wondering that we may be coming to the end of a 10 year building cycle, because of the uncertainty ahead, & it may take many years perhaps, for some of Birmingham's more ambitious plans to come to fruition, other than the ones that have started or are about to start.

Meh, not really, Manchester has one finished taller but it and its other proposals leave a lot be desired design wise IMO.
While I would love Lumiere in Brum Leeds' skyline still won't be anywhere near as dense, and I'll be quite happy with Snow Hill, V and BST thank you very much.

To have the tallest building in your city does carry some prestige though? Can you see, say, a 55 storey tower being planned for Birmingham in the next 5 years?

Well yes tbh I can, I dunno when or where but yeah why not.
Having the tallest full stop is a big deal, the tallest outside London is not. I don't think any regional city will get taller than London so its not really important. Besides I'd rather have the most attractive building than the tallest one.

I think if we've missed the boat then so have most other places.

Most of the top cities have done some big impact projects and have many more of various shapes, sizes and scales in the pipeline, but in terms of concrete out of the ground they're on a similar plane ....ish.

But I don't think the bubble has burst.

When the property market collapsed in the early 70's the government of the time had driven the UK economy almost to a point of bankrupty - interest rates were in another world to what we know now, and the World Bank was refusing to lend UK plc any more money.

We're nowhere near that now, interest rates are being tweaked to maintain the economy.......

......mind you...Mr Greedy is heading for No. 10.........

......mind you...Mr Greedy is heading for No. 10.........


...... I know, & there is talk that he wants to tax us on the size of our gardens ...... so thinking about it, perhaps there is a bigger market for apartments than I thought!

I'm one of those advocates who believe that having the tallest at the expense of good design is a little short-sighted. Give me something shorter but far more pleasing on the eye anytime.

it totally depends on what your view of the "missing the boat" is.

If you think missing the boat is having the tallest building outside london is it, them we more then likely have for the time being. Birmingham has never had the tallest building outside the capital (well maybe in 1900 but that wa about it). We were pioneers when it came to re-intoducing tall buildings in our regional cities and they have caught on. Yes birmingham doesnt have the tallest, but i really do dislike the weight ppl put on the importance of being the tallest!

There are and is plans for taller builsings within the city. this is and always has been the case as many of you will have probably suspected. But only because they have not been built, doesnt mean our city isnt a success. i would quite highly argue that the likes of brindley place, the bullring, martineau galleries will all have a higher impact on our cities success than a "tallest outside london" building would ever have. and its not as if we havent been building tall buildings either!

Missing the boat is not appreciating the benefits of what can be gained, and Birmingham has harnessed tall buildings better than most other cities have. We developed a tall buildings policy which is negotiable, precaticle and logical and as a result have even invited the development of tall buildings on plots originally proposed to be low rise - look at snow hill and new street for example. Yes you might look at manchester and leeds with envious eyes, but leeds is developing a tall building policy as we speak and manchester will soon have to follow suit when the new range of planning laws are implimented in the next few years!

if anything, i would suggest the we have approached this the best way. we are neither ther leader or the underdog. Manchester is throwing them up and so whilst being able to gain the benefits they will also suffer the most if they fail, followed by leeds, and then birmingham followed by liverpool and then the other smaller cities!

im perfectly happy where we are, and the day these taller towers come to light, if they ever do, then they will do because they are viable and are what the city needs, not because it wasnts to copy other cities.

missed the boat? no, id like to see other cities that have benefited from £10billion of investment over the last 10 years, a city that has been able to sustain the largest office lets outside the capital, the city that has been able to attract the largest speculatively built schemes outside the capital all together with the largest newly build city centre shopping centre and award winning developments like brindley place... doesnt sound like missing the boat to me!

:applause: Well said, Woody:banana:

I concur with everything you have written Woody, & have a good understanding of where Birmingham has emerged from over the last 40 years, what it has acheived & where it is going.

But, is this tall building cycle about to end, not just for Birmingham, but for the rest of the country, just as Manchester & Leeds put up the last tallest buildings in our regions?

it totally depends on what your view of the "missing the boat" is.

If you think missing the boat is having the tallest building outside london is it, them we more then likely have for the time being. Birmingham has never had the tallest building outside the capital (well maybe in 1900 but that wa about it).


Errrrr.... Holloway Circus Tower.

^^Spinnaker Tower? Or is that cheating...? :dunno:

Fantastic reply Woody.

All goes to highlight my Freudian penis envy is correct with people.

On a psychological perspective, is the preponderance of gay men and height issues a Freudian Penis envy study in the waiting.

We have nothing to be ashamed of (well perhaps the odd minor mistake) and should make it our goal to build well and develop an urban grain and if there is a skyscraper that helps in both counts then support it.
Its also really difficult to compare different cities with different economic, cultural and historical factors affecting their urbanicity. Yes we may all be in the urinal checking each others bits out but its what you do with them, its how they work and whether you are happy that matters - not that Joe's is bigger than yours.

Birmingham is Birmingham because of its history and development and I wouldnt want it any other way. Identikit cities and development and 'weve got taller building than you' all undermine the focus should be on people and how we use, live, visit and develop our cities.

Errrrr.... Holloway Circus Tower.

...for about 2 monthsm thats doesnt count!

I concur with everything you have written Woody, & have a good understanding of where Birmingham has emerged from over the last 40 years, what it has acheived & where it is going.

But, is this tall building cycle about to end, not just for Birmingham, but for the rest of the country, just as Manchester & Leeds put up the last tallest buildings in our regions?


If the skyscrpaer boom was about to come to the end, then regardless of having plannign consent or not, these towers woulsdnt be built. it takes a good 2 years to build towers of that size, and then you have to sell the huge amount of apartments... these aint short term investments and woudlnt be built if the boom was going to come to an end over night

and might i remind you, even though V tower is the smallest in height, its the biggest in terms of number of resi units... 712 units in one tower!

I have to agree with Woody also. Birmingham has not missed the boat, you only have to enter the city by train from the sutton coldfield end to see that, loads of great potential just starting to get under construction. You only have to look around snowhill at the moment with the second crane being built to see that Birmingham has a great future ahead of itself. We are already going to get a tower of around 50 floors, and whilst i do like Lumiere in Leeds and i do wish them luck with this one, this has been delayed so many times over the last few years and still is. Just becouse everyone is wetting themselves with seeing a yellow digger on site, construction is not expected to start until september 2007, and Eastgate in Manchester, well what can i say. I dont expect this one to be happening at all, and even if it does everyone is now saying that it wont be 60 floors, more like 50. With this in mind though, people will still probally come on here and say to make up for it, Manchester is going to build a 200M monster somewhere else in the city, this is total rubbish. They cant even build a 188M monster. Birmingham is also in the same situation but the difference with Birmingham and Manchester is that we do not go around willy waving and saying we are going to build the tallest tower outside London, lets leave this to Leeds and Manchester to fight it out and let Birmingham build quality towers rather than Mediocre ones.(except Lumiere which is quality) Also talking about Birminghams future, we also have Broad street tower approved and ready for construction and the faboulous pinnacle VTP 176m tower in addition to snowhill and V Building. I think sometimes people forget all these other developments in Brum. Happy times ahead:) :) :) :)

You have restored the common sense to this discussion Woody!

Well done!

Here Here :)

You have restored the common sense to this discussion Woody!

Well done!

That was my 'master plan' ... I was just trying to gauge people's feelings of optimism, or not, & see if people consider the boom that is taking place in Birmingham today, i.e. Snow Hill, Arena Central, etc; will be sustainable ..... we obviously think it will be, so thank you.

Most curious indeed this thread.

Am I correct in saying that if the author of this same topic was myself then it's very likely that it would have been locked by the forum gestapo within a few hours?

After all, when I previously mused at length on Birmingham "missing the boat" and why it seemed content to "settle for second or third best" the thread in question was promptly sent to Coventry (albeit not literally, but you know what I mean) amidst howls of protest.

Double bloody standards again - and I'm also expecting this here reply to be carefully excised from this thread as well...... freedom of speech anyone? :no:

its not about freedom of speech, its just a case of 95% of the time, as soon as forumers see you name in a thread, they run a mile and dont want to take part. not because they dont want to, but they know they will be wasting their breathe in talking to you on such a topic when you have such fixed views. we all know that you claim to love birmingham, but ur so set in your ways, nothing any of us or birmignham can do will change your mind, so we've given up trying!

You now implying that I'm a serial thread killer?

How very dare you! :no: ;)

I think I'm somewhere in between, Snowhill is going to be one of the best developments Brum has seen, and there's no way I'd swap that for Beetham Manch. However I was very disapointed with V buildings height, I think it was more to do with the build up of that huge Arena Central tower though, more of an anti climax than anything else. If V was to be situated anywhere else in the city I think more people would like it.

I would seriously love to see Brum get the tallest outside the capital, after all the national news coverage Beetham got when it opened I remember thinking that would be a great advert for Brum and give us some much needed positive national exposure. Truth is though I do not like Beetham one bit, same can be said for Eastgate, and wouldn't swap both of those for our developments. Lumiere though is awsome and would have been fantastic for the V building site:) .

The one area where I think Brum really has missed the boat though is transport in and out of the city. Develoments such as the Cube, and possibly more so VTP, will undoubtably bring people into the city and Brum needs to make sure that experience is safe, smooth and enjoyable. Problem is Digbeth coach station is a crime ridden cesspit, and the dungeon that is New Street Station is not much better, these are often the first and last impressions of the city and those can count for alot. BHX is a nice airport, but for a city of our size and stature it's route structure is pathetic. People who market Brum overseas can do the greatest job imaginable, but if theres no way of getting here (or if there's inconvenient connections to be made) then what's the point.

Apologies if I've digressed slightly, I'm overall pretty happy with the developments in the pipeline, I'd just like us to get the infrastructure in place so people can visit them:bash:

Be grateful for what you have/are getting. Nevermind missing the boat, Glasgow hasn't even got to the bloody river.

However I was very disapointed with V buildings height, I think it was more to do with the build up of that huge Arena Central tower though, more of an anti climax than anything else. If V was to be situated anywhere else in the city I think more people would like it.

I would seriously love to see Brum get the tallest outside the capital, after all the national news coverage Beetham got when it opened I remember thinking that would be a great advert for Brum and give us some much needed positive national exposure. Truth is though I do not like Beetham one bit, same can be said for Eastgate, and wouldn't swap both of those for our developments. Lumiere though is awsome and would have been fantastic for the V building site:) .

The one area where I think Brum really has missed the boat though is transport in and out of the city. Develoments such as the Cube, and possibly more so VTP, will undoubtably bring people into the city and Brum needs to make sure that experience is safe, smooth and enjoyable. Problem is Digbeth coach station is a crime ridden cesspit, and the dungeon that is New Street Station is not much better, these are often the first and last impressions of the city and those can count for alot. BHX is a nice airport, but for a city of our size and stature it's route structure is pathetic. People who market Brum overseas can do the greatest job imaginable, but if theres no way of getting here (or if there's inconvenient connections to be made) then what's the point.

Apologies if I've digressed slightly, I'm overall pretty happy with the developments in the pipeline, I'd just like us to get the infrastructure in place so people can visit them:bash:

You haven't digressed at all - I agree with practically every point you have raised here - because I have said the same before, and especially that bit about V Building - if it was a separate scheme proposed for a different location in the city I may have accepted it, but because it's replaced Arena Central and thus occupies that "hallowed" location for what would have been the city's tallest building (and possibly outside the big smoke), I therefore have viewed it in a less than favourable light - and regard it as a travesty simply because it dare sits on the plot of land earmarked for a much taller structure.

Couple of Post articles related to the theme:

Citigroup funds break 1bn barrierMay 17 2007
http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/birminghampost/business/tm_headline=citigroup-funds-break-1bn-barrier%26method=full%26objectid=19118716%26siteid=50002-name_page.html

By John Cranage, Business Staff

An "explosion of wealth" in the region has seen the value of funds managed by the Birmingham office of investment group Citigroup Quilter break through the £1 billion level.

Previously part of the Morgan Stanley group, Quilter was acquired by US-based Citigroup - which now trades under the Citi brand - in March.

Led by David Loudon, head of Quilter's onshore branches and a well known figure in Birmingham finance circles, and Birmingham branch head Sean Raftery, the office has expanded into new areas such as self-invested personal pensions.

"The explosion of wealth in the Midlands region over the last few years has presented an opportunity and a need for high quality investment management," Mr Raftery said.

Mr Loudon added: "Birmingham continues to be a focus for business growth and we are delighted that funds under management have reached the £1 billion mark.

ALSO

Trust warning over commercial property
http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/birminghampost/business/tm_headline=trust-warning-over-commercial-property%26method=full%26objectid=19118751%26siteid=50002-name_page.html

Bullring partner Land Securities warned yesterday that the UK's soaring commercial property scene looks to have peaked.

The country's biggest real estate investment trust said it had seen a slowdown in capital value growth.

"This is consistent with our view that the yield repricing of UK property assets is close to having run its course," chief executive Francis Salway said.

But Land Securities, part of the Birmingham Alliance consortium responsible for the Bullring development in Birmingham, said it would push ahead with a new infrastructure fund that could be valued at £800-850 million.

The property group, which earlier this year converted its £14.8 billion UK portfolio into a Real Estate Investment Trust (REIT), said the value of its investment portfolio slowed in the second half of 2006-07, with some "lesser quality" retail assets seeing a downturn in values.

Be grateful for what you have/are getting. Nevermind missing the boat, Glasgow hasn't even got to the bloody river.

Aw. Maybe you guys peaked early (90's?) when there just wasn't the money around to do the bigger stuff? There is a fair bit going on in Glasgow though isn't there? And completely different challenges to most British cities?

FLD - I think it is an important and good point you make, but I don't think there is any time to worry just yet.

The reason for this is the diversity of schemes. Of late Brum's largest schemes were either resi or retail, but now there is the office element creeping in, which stimulates a different part of the economy.

Will we see the tallest outside London? I say a distinct "possibly", but that depends not so much on Brum's proposals, but everyone else's. Let's say we propose a 189m tower to beat Eastgate by 1m, who's to say that Liverpool won't propose 190m?

For me, I would prefer to see more tall buildings of better quality, than a few, mediocre, very talls. And the fact that 3 of our 100m+ proposed or in planning are office towers is good news.

The general wisdom in the UK construction sector is that there is another 5-7 years of boom left. What happens after then who knows, but given the large transport schemes (which further stimulate development) that the country needs are yet to be developed, I would say we have got a while.

The thing is, we as a city need to concentrate on things like graduate retention, city beautification, cultural investment, transport and knowledge investment in unis and colleges if we are to expand and cement our positon as the best city to live, work, rest and play outside London.

'Has Brum missed the boat?'

Erm, No...

next question...

;)

The general wisdom in the UK construction sector is that there is another 5-7 years of boom left. What happens after then who knows, but given the large transport schemes (which further stimulate development) that the country needs are yet to be developed, I would say we have got a while.


Hopefully just enough time for me to get enough experience under my belt to set myself up right for the future lol....

...and would i be right in thinking that the olympics have prolonged this??

also, a point which many of you seem scared of, is that the burst in the bubble is going to come in the form of a massive crash in every form of regeneration....?!??! Well, i cant help that think that unles something totally unforeseen happenes (which unfortunately are the reasons crashes happen), it will not be a crash but instead a levelling off and stablising of the situation. There should be no reason to think a crash will happen where from one day there are hundreds of proposals and the next they have been cancelled!

2 points id like to point out..

the great USA is currently suffereing from the start of a major housing recession. In this i mean house prices are falling faster then they have any times in the last 20 years apparently, but this has been happening for a number of years, and you still see these towers sprouting up in all major cities.

Also, declines do not stop construction. even looking through all our crashes, recessiona dn declines... these often occur in a rut of 2 to 3 years but then often correct themselves. look at birmingham at some of our most impressive schemes developed.... all as adirect result of "burst bubbles"

Brum did miss the boat... we just shrugged and caught a plane instead,

it's all plane sailing from here on, ooh I feel all at sea now... time to bow out etc etc..

:runaway:

we must of missed some kind of boat because when you get that kind of land for Arena and dont use it to its potential its a load of bollocks really, If we are aiming to be on the world map we have to statrt by building bigger, and other cities seem to be doing it so we have missed something and were stuck in dwarf city.

People keep saying other cities do it, but only Manchester has built 1 tower at 157M and cant even get any of its other proposals up at the moment, its all talk talk talk. I know Lumiere in Leeds is at a more advanced stage but even that is not scheduled to start construction until september and that keeps getting put back.

People keep saying other cities do it, but only Manchester has built 1 tower at 157M and cant even get any of its other proposals up at the moment, its all talk talk talk. .

They are expert at it!

For me, I would prefer to see more tall buildings of better quality, than a few, mediocre, very talls. And the fact that 3 of our 100m+ proposed or in planning are office towers is good news.

I agree 100% V tower, snowhill are good quality designs, the fact they are not a few meters taller is irrelevant, they will look good and prominent when constructed. I am glad Birmingham seems to be waking up to quality architecure at last, several schemes in the jewellery quarter and around the city are proof of this

I don't think we've missed the boat exactly, people who claim to know these things keep saying there's lots in the pipeline we don't know about, and the way Snow Hill appeared so quickly I can believe that.

I also agree that in general quality is more important than pure height in terms of creating a beautiful skyline. However, I do realise that in the case of the Arena Central plot we had the opportunity to create something that was both high quality AND tall. Don't get me wrong, I'm very pleased we have it, but I don't understand why it's not going to reach up to it's full allowed height. Just to repeat that overall I DO like V-Tower. :)

Well, we've missed this boat anyway...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/HMS_Birmingham_D86.jpg/300px-HMS_Birmingham_D86.jpg
Image from Wikipedia.

Royal Navy Type 42 Destroyer D86 HMS Birmingham Built at Camel Laird on the River Mersey. Comissioned December 1976. She saw action in the Falklands War, and was decomissioned and sold for scrap in the year 2000.

All Type 42 Destroyers are in the process of being replaced by the new Type 45 Daring class, who's ship names all begin with the letter 'D':HMS' Daring (Sea Trials), Dauntless,(Launched) Diamond,(Launch Nv 07) Dragon,(U/C) Defender,(U/C) Duncan(U/C) - there's a thread in the Barracks if you want to know more!

So neither Brum, or any other city seems likely to have a Destoyer named after it for the immediate future, although the Type 45 lead boat, HMS Daring is 'affiliated' to Birmingham & the 4th Knowle Sea Scout Group.

Wikipedia: HMS Birmingham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Birmingham_(D86))

The Royal Navy will be a couple of rib-riders and a canoe by the time Blair and Brown finish with it!

The Royal Navy will be a couple of rib-riders and a canoe by the time Blair and Brown finish with it!

See 'Astute Class SSN', 'Super Aircraft Carrier', and 'Type45 Destroyers' threads in The Barracks because you may be in for a bit of a suprise on that front! As I said above, 2 Type45's are already launched, with a 3rd slated in for November this year. The others are under construction.

HMS Astute launches next week, and the government has just ordered another one.

Just need to get the Aircraft Carriers sorted now, because they seem to be turning into Arena Central with fish! :lol:

Anyway. To answer FLD's question. No, I don't think we've missed the boat at all. Brum will continue to grow and develop. Some things other cities will be ahead of us with. Some things they will be behind us.

As long as the economy keeps growing. We will keep growing.

Controversial point this for a Skyscraper forum but i am less interested in tall buildings than urban regeneration.

I want to Brum develop good spaces/places and streets more than big F***-off tall buildings. I do see tall buildings as part of the bigger picture (urban regeneration) as i would really like to see us develop a recognisable and identifiable skyline.. it would help the Marketing and it projects the right image about the city (ie wealth and success, invest here). It's just not really improtant to me whether we have a 150m building and Manchester has a 160m building..

I agree with you Engels, I'd much rather have a city where people feel comfortable, with a sense of vibrancy and can just hang around (not loitering) and is attractive than a few skyscrapers. I'm more a fan of urbanicity than skyscrapers.
I also agree on the recognisable skyline bit, the height is nowhere near as important as the quality.

I agree with you Engels, I'd much rather have a city where people feel comfortable, with a sense of vibrancy and can just hang around (not loitering) and is attractive than a few skyscrapers. I'm more a fan of urbanicity than skyscrapers.
I also agree on the recognisable skyline bit, the height is nowhere near as important as the quality.

Controversial point this for a Skyscraper forum but i am less interested in tall buildings than urban regeneration.

I want to Brum develop good spaces/places and streets more than big F***-off tall buildings. I do see tall buildings as part of the bigger picture (urban regeneration) as i would really like to see us develop a recognisable and identifiable skyline.. it would help the Marketing and it projects the right image about the city (ie wealth and success, invest here). It's just not really improtant to me whether we have a 150m building and Manchester has a 160m building..

Well said both. I couldn't agree more.

For me, it's all about Quality developments that enhance the city by bringing better housing, more jobs, better environments, and not repeating the mistakes of the past.

Take the BullRing as an example. Not the biggest shopping centre in the world. Not perfect. Not a Skyscraper, but the benefit it has given to Birmingham in terms of economy, public perception, environment, and so on is immense.

Bigger does not always mean better!