Hey guys,

Today I received a message over Flickr about one of my photos:

Hi,
I work for a design firm in Atlanta, GA. I'm interested in purchasing the image mentioned below for the FedEx Annual Report that my company is designing and producing. Would you be interested?

Image-
Looking out onto Columbus Circle (with a statue of Columbus himself) and 59th Street (Central Park South) from the Borders bookstore in the Time Warner Center. New York City. April 2005.

Please email me at *** or call ***

Thanks

I'm a little surprised that somebody wants to purchase one of my photos, and I have no idea how this works ... at all! I think a few people here talked about selling photos before, but the search function isn't working. Hope somebody can help me with this.

This is the photo that they're referring to:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/91/249514265_c6bb8944dd.jpg

Yea, I know, it's not even that good ... don't know why they want it. Maybe it's some sort of scam? :lol:

First, if I sell them this photo, will I retain all the rights to it? I will be only giving my permission for them to use it, right? What sort of legal precautions and measures do I need to follow for this?

Second, what about the price? What do these sort of photos usually sell for?

In general, do you guys have some more advice or something else I need to know before going through with this?

Thanks a lot!

First, if I sell them this photo, will I retain all the rights to it? I will be only giving my permission for them to use it, right? What sort of legal precautions and measures do I need to follow for this?

You have to tell them that they won't purchase the exclusive rights for this photo, only the rights to use it. This has to be done in a written form as far as I know. It's best to send him your terms of usage and he has to accept them before the deal.

Second, what about the price? What do these sort of photos usually sell for?

In general, do you guys have some more advice or something else I need to know before going through with this?

First of all, set up a PayPal account. This is usually the easiest and safest way to handle transactions for both sides. As for the prices, they differ a lot.

I usually ask for 60 Euros for a single photo and 100-200 Euros for a panorama photo. But I've seen photographers asking for as much as 250-300 Euros for a single photo and others selling their photos for as little as 20 Euros.

I'm sure somebody will provide specific advice but for the moment, and if you haven't yet, get back right away to them and let them know your interest in the deal, they might be in a rush and choose another image. Also, I wouldn't be too picky about legal stuff because a FedEx Annual Report sounds like a pretty cool credit.

Yes, I'm going to get back to them right now. Should I ask them what they're offering for the photo, or let them do the talking, and just say that I'm interested?

Edit: I have just emailed them, expressing my interest in their offer and waiting for further details.

Come to think of it, I can imagine that photo going really well with a FedEx Marketing scheme.

Oh, and did anyone know that if you look between the E and x in FedEx there's an arrow?

Come to think of it, I can imagine that photo going really well with a FedEx Marketing scheme.

Oh, and did anyone know that if you look between the E and x in FedEx there's an arrow?
I also checked out the website from their email, and it seems pretty legit.

Yes, I'm going to get back to them right now. Should I ask them what they're offering for the photo, or let them do the talking, and just say that I'm interested?

Edit: I have just emailed them, expressing my interest in their offer and waiting for further details.

Good, maybe they'll ask for certain file format and size, etc. The next step is to tell them how much are you asking... the numbers that R@ptor mentioned sound reasonable to me, and take into account that when you close the deal you'll need to be ready to get the money... first the money, then the photo.

Okay, this is what I just received from them:

Hi Sergei,

We are in the design process of the FedEx Annual Report. Your image was placed in a layout as a possible image. We all think it's great.

Where was this image photographed?

Not sure what to make of it. I guess it's one of the images they're considering, but I still don't know the price or anything. I just wrote back asking them to contact me if they do decide on using my photo.

A marketing firm bought a photo from me back in the Winter for an AT&T ad, so I have a little experience.

Take whatever they offer. I dilly-dallied when getting the photo to them, responding to e-mails, etc. They made it clear that if I took too long, they would move on and buy the rights to one of the other pictures that they were interested in. Think of it like George Costanza in Seinfeld ruining that deal: they made an offer, he tried to wheel and deal, and it backfired. George should've just taken the offer. You are in the same situation as George; you are just one option that they have, and they are going with you for now. Finalize the deal before something goes wrong.

Like someone said, make sure they don't own the picture. They should buy a license to use the photo. The license might be for a year, 2 years, or forever, but I don't think that's too big of a deal.

Well, the ball is in their hands... give them all the info they need, keep contact with them, make thinks easy.

When they send you a contract, post it here and we'll take a look and make sure you aren't getting screwed.

Okay, thanks everyone! Now I'm just waiting for them to get back to me, apparently they're still working on the design and everything, and considering using my photo.

i_am_hydrogen, you should join our SSC Flickr group! I'll add you as a contact and send you an invite.

Some good advice above.

Your photo generally seems a good Royalty Free shot. There are no identifiable faces, and they will probably clone out any advertising on the buildings (if any are present). Microstock agencies sell these types of photos for as low as 50cents, but they probably know this and still came for your photo.

Regular stock agencies would sell this image as Royalty Free for between $20 and $60.

But again, that is based on a stock assumption. Technically, you could charge more, but it does risk the customer looking elsewhere (there is a massive market out there)

This is your first sale, so don't be too fussy about the price. But do as others suggest and incorporate some legal issues regarding use of the photo. Making sure that you retain all copyright and ownership and their use is for one time marketing - unless you sell it as a Managed Rights deal in which you can offer multiple uses over a time period (often 2-3 years) and at a higher cost.

If they want exclusivity, then this increases the cost. You can offer different costs per region, say $200 for North America, $500 Global etc, and then guarantee that this photo will not be for sale to anyone else within those regions for the period (and remove from your flickr site).

If they want full ownership of the photo. The price is of cause going to go up. Start at $800 to $1000. Very unlikely, but you never know.

Just remember, don't push it. They can always find photos for 50cents. But you now have a guide.

I make up a nice portion of my income from photosales, both through microstock, majorstock agencies, commission work and private sales.

Thanks for all the advice, everyone!

Here's the latest email from them:


Hi Sergei,

Thanks you for that information. We are interested in using your image still but are waiting on client feedback.

I will be on vacation for two weeks returning on the 13th of June. If one of our Account Executives doesn't contact you while I am away, I will check in with you once I get back to further discuss the image.

Thank you for your time.
Julie

All that's left to do for now is wait.

I guess the question is: do you feel attached to the shot? Do you value it? There are shots I wouldnt sell non-exclusive rights for any money..well, never say never who knows what the offer is but not for 800 dollars for sure. Ive been approached and Ive always turned down such offers for shots I value.

Cool!! :) You're so lucky someone wants to buy your photo, and this may be your first sale ever, hehe. I hope one day I could make money from my photos too... I took a similar picture to yours when I was at Columbus Circle in NYC in August 2006... maybe I should put all of my city pics up on a photo gallery site and get some interested buyers. :P

Okay, I have another request for the use of another one of my photos. The other one never got back to me.

It's for this photo:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/65/359058765_13034133c9.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/sergei24/359058765/)

Hi There,
Great pic.
I am the Marketing and Communications Manager of Canadian Women's Foundation (a registered charity and Canada's only national public foundation dedicated to improving the lives of women and girls). I am currently working on producing our annual report and endowment campaign materials and would like to know if I may use this photo.

Our materials are not commercial. They are used to educate the public about our work and raise funds for the Foundation. The money we raise is used to award grants to organizations across Canada that are working to end violence against women, move low-income women out of poverty and build resiliency in girls. For more info, please visit our site: www.canadianwomen.org

I am looking for images of women in Canada that reflect the diversity in landscape, culture, socio-economic status and abilities.

Please contact me at sruddle@canadianwomen.org.

Thanks so much!
Sarah Ruddle

I wrote them back asking for more information and if there was any compensation and how I would get credited.

Hi Sergei,
Thanks for your response.
This image would be used for our endowment campaign communication materials. The campaign is attempting to raise $20 million which will be invested to ensure that Canadian Women's Foundation can exist in perpetuity. The interest from the investment will go toward funding the Foundation's operations so that 100% of all money that we are donated goes directly to the grants that we award to initiatives across Canada. We fund programs that work in three areas: ending violence against women, moving low-income women out of poverty and toward economic self-sufficiency, and building resiliency in girls.

There is a photography budget for these materials. Please let me know how much you would charge for licensing of this image in the hard-copy pamphlet and possibly on the campaign's web site. I would credit you as follows: Photographer: Sergei Yahchybekov - is that appropriate?

There's one other point that another photographer brought up and I think it's very valid. Because of the nature of the programs that we fund, he was concerned about the possible assumptions that could be made about the people in the images. In response to that, I told him that this piece will talk about the work that CWF does, but will not suggest in wording that the people in the images were program participants. The photographs are intended to convey aspiration and hope and it's my hope that it will come across that this is what Canada COULD look like. In an ideal scenario we would have a release signed by the model, but that's not always possible. Can you let me know what your thoughts are on this?

Best Regards,
Sarah

This is a bit different from the first case. They want to use it for a pamphlet and possibly online. How much should I ask for for this type of usage?

It seems what she proposed is a pretty typical way of giving credit. But is it appropriate to ask them to include my website? Especially if they use it on their website, a link would be great. But I guess I'll have to upgrade from Flickr to something more professional, at least for this purpose. How does that sound?

She also mentioned a model release. The girl in the photo is a friend of mine, and I have already asked her for permission. Should I still get her to sign some model release?

Anything else I need to think about?
Thanks for your help in advance!

Advice No.1: Yes, get her to sign a model release. No thoughts about that needed. In a situation like this, even though she is a friend, a model release is vital. Who knows, a serious rift may split the two of you apart one day... Besides, if she is a friend, it will be easy to acquire, presuming she still is happy about signing.

Do a google search for a basic template of a model release. A real basic one can be found here, but you may want to change the wordings or look for something else: http://www.dpcorner.com/all_about/releases2.shtml#Permission

As for price, well that's a bit more difficult because it's a charity organization. Charity organizations like to get charity in whichever form. Basically, they are hoping you will offer it for free. They may still be interested in purchasing but will probably hope for a "charity offer". For normal commercial work, considering this is not commissioned, and that they probably don't want any exclusivity (which drops the price as you can freely sell it on again further) you could expect between €60 and €300, depending on usage, quantity of publication and size/location of print. However, they don't define the print runs, nor the size of the photo and where it will be placed. Prices can vary enormously.

Here is a quick guide to use for pricing: Basically a calculator. They don't have charity, so maybe educational is the closest. I would email this person and ask the print run, and size/location where the photo will be used.

Keep in mind, the link below is in AUSTRALIAN Dollars, not American or Canadian,!
http://www.ozimages.com.au/stockpricing/calculator.asp

After that, you may want to drop your price if you believe in the charity work as a sort of donation. By your offer for this, it may make them happy and they may remember you again in the future.

In the event that they end up asking for it for free, I would say no. Giving photography away for free hurts the industry. Many photographers make their living, put their food on the table, pay the mortgage and feed the kids from their sales. If people start giving away pictures for free it never is good for the industry. Besides, it's a good shot, and you deserve to make some reward for it's usage here :O)

Thank You, Justme!

I have written them back asking for that additional information.
I will also get my friend to sign that model release.

They have already told me that they have a budget for this. The birdie is out of the bag, so I can't see them asking for it for free now.

Again, thank you, and I will update you soon!

In the event that they end up asking for it for free, I would say no. Giving photography away for free hurts the industry. Many photographers make their living, put their food on the table, pay the mortgage and feed the kids from their sales. If people start giving away pictures for free it never is good for the industry.Justme, I respect your opinion, knowledge and insight, and agree with nearly everything I've seen you post around here. But I've got to disagree on the save-the-pro-photographers thing.

We can't stop driving cars because it hurts the horse and cart industry. We can't stop selling photos because it hurts the oil-painting industry. If pro photogs can't compete with amateurs, it's time for them to reassess the market. There are plenty of opportunities for the pros to keep feeding their kids - amateurs don't do a lot of stock photos of people in suits shaking hands in front of office equipment, and nobody's going to be able to grab their wedding photos off Flickr rather than hiring a pro.

Pro photography is moving towards a service-based model. Fighting that is fighting the market, and there aren't a lot of professionals in any industry who have succeeded at doing that.

@ Sergei - what Justme says about model releases and pricing is very, very good advice.

Justme, I respect your opinion, knowledge and insight, and agree with nearly everything I've seen you post around here. But I've got to disagree on the save-the-pro-photographers thing.

We can't stop driving cars because it hurts the horse and cart industry. We can't stop selling photos because it hurts the oil-painting industry. If pro photogs can't compete with amateurs, it's time for them to reassess the market. There are plenty of opportunities for the pros to keep feeding their kids - amateurs don't do a lot of stock photos of people in suits shaking hands in front of office equipment, and nobody's going to be able to grab their wedding photos off Flickr rather than hiring a pro.

Pro photography is moving towards a service-based model. Fighting that is fighting the market, and there aren't a lot of professionals in any industry who have succeeded at doing that.

@ Sergei - what Justme says about model releases and pricing is very, very good advice.

I certainly see your point. And in many ways I agree with it. Photography has always been an evolving market and right now it is changing at a break neck pace.

But giving away photos for free is still wrong. It's wrong for the amature who is being exploited, and it's wrong for the industry.

I presume you work? I also presume you take away a wage. If your company said to you, "hey, we want you to work for us, but we thought we'd save the trouble of all this financial stuff, and you can do it for free.", you'd probably tell them to piss off.

If I browsed through a flickr gallery and noticed someone's great DIY job on their kitchen, I wouldn't email them and ask them to do the same to my kitchen for free. It's the same with any industry. Many companies rely on the wow factor for amateurs who have been asked to give away their photos for free. The wow factor being that they are good enough to have their own photo used in some publication.

These companies used to always pay for the images, but since the internet has come around, they can browse through places like flickr, find photos and now save themselves a few hundred bucks. If they need 100 photos, it really adds up.

They are not asking for free because they are broke. They are simply trying to exploit the amateur photographer.

The fact is, many amateurs are as good photographers as professionals. The difference is, they don't sell their work, it's a hobby.

Now if they started to give away their work for nothing, more and more companies would source them as a free way to get images. This will hurt the industry. It already is. And what option would professional photographers have? They can't offer their own photos for free can they?

My advise is this. If an amateur is asked by a company to use their photo. Sell it. Don't give it away. Don't be pleased enough that they have been asked and end it there. Why? The reason is two fold, they want your photo is because a) it's good. If it's good, it's worth something, and if it's worth something, it's free. b) they also want your photo because it's free and they hope to exploit you. Don't let them exploit you, that is not good.

By the way, this does differ for charity work. Although I would still charge a novel fee, I don't oppose people who do give work away to charities for nothing. It is a fair exchange.

By the way, as for wedding photographers, and shaking hands at the airport. There are already enough wedding photographers out there, and yes, we will always need specialist photographers, but that is still a limited market.

omg some cool stuff Sergei!! im happy for ya ;)

I've received a reply back:
Hi Sergei,
If it's convenient for you to have her sign something, that would be great. I have a generic release which I've attached...
The endowment campaign will run for about a year (though I don't have confirmation on that). It is targeted toward major donors ($100,000 and up) so the distribution of the piece would be quite small -I'd say around 200 to 250. I would also like to use the image on the campaign web page. In the hardcopy materials my plan is to cover close to an entire page with one image - so let's say somewhere between 5"x7" and 8"x11". The location has not been determined - I still have to write the content!

Thanks so much,
Sarah

Any thoughts?

I've tried the calculator, but it says it doesn't have any data for that. Based on these, what would you charge?

Now I'm worried about the resolution. I only have a 5MP camera, so it's not so big to begin with, but I also edited it for Flickr in mind. The photo that she found on Flickr is 1000px max, and I've retouched it. What would be the minimum resolution needed for a good 5"x7" and 8"x11" that she wants?

I've received a reply back:


Any thoughts?

I've tried the calculator, but it says it doesn't have any data for that. Based on these, what would you charge?

Now I'm worried about the resolution. I only have a 5MP camera, so it's not so big to begin with, but I also edited it for Flickr in mind. The photo that she found on Flickr is 1000px max, and I've retouched it. What would be the minimum resolution needed for a good 5"x7" and 8"x11" that she wants?

Ok, I used the calculator, and treated it as advertising. Afterall, they are technically doing that and do call it a campaign. I would call it a brochure, set the size to full page and print run to the minimum. This is what it came up with:

http://www.ozimages.com.au/stockpricing/Calculator2.asp
High Price: US$608
Low Price: US$75
Average Price: US$410

That doesn't include the web usage (1 year)
High Price: US$250
Low Price: US$250
Average Price: US$250

Now to be honest, that's pretty expensive and they are a charity. I would personally offer $200 for the lot - only because it's a charity and for a good cause.

Be professional about it, explaining the usage terms, period of contract etc. Explain that normally this would be two separate contracts, one for the print run, and the other for the website, but you have made a good offer.

Now that's what I would offer but this is probably still way above their budget as a charity. if you offer to high, you'll certainly scare her away and she probably will never come back. It maybe worth offering a much lower token figure of say $50. Afterall, it's not like this feeds the kids, it's a hobby that pays off a bit.

Don't worry, 5mp is sufficient for A4 or 8"x11".

By the way, I think you have an excellent eye for photography. You should put up some of your photos for sale, they are top notch.

Once again, thanks everyone!

I can tell her that I would normally charge $200 for such requests, but since it's a charity, I can be pretty flexible. I will ask her what her budget allows.

Now, about the contract and usage terms, I'm completely clueless. Can somebody help me write that up or point me in the right direction? I don't want her to see that I'm bullshitting.

Advice No.1: Yes, get her to sign a model release. No thoughts about that needed. In a situation like this, even though she is a friend, a model release is vital. Who knows, a serious rift may split the two of you apart one day... Besides, if she is a friend, it will be easy to acquire, presuming she still is happy about signing.

It looks to me like this photo was taken in a public place. I was under the impression that no release is needed if a person appears in a photo that was taken in a public place.

It looks to me like this photo was taken in a public place. I was under the impression that no release is needed if a person appears in a photo that was taken in a public place.

Now of cause that does depend on the country, but in any country I know, absolutely not. Especially as this is singling out one person.

Often, most country's allow a certain amount of leeway for editorial or artistic photography. Editorial as in newsworthy.

But this isn't and neither is the client. The problem becomes this; The person in the photo may object to their usage by a company and sue both the photographer and the company. A model release form protects both the client and the photographer. There has been endless amounts of cases where the person(s) in a photograph used by a company has ended up in court and in commercial use, the client and photographer will generally loose.

Faces in a crowd can be used in commercial photography, but this is where Managed Rights sales come into effect. Your agency will check the usage (usually somewhere in a book or postcard, or somewhere where the usage will not be defamatory to the faces in the crowd) It's these checks that bring the cost up and be much higher than royalty free.

Artistic photography allows a level of flexibility. This again of cause depends on the country. But generally speaking you can have faces and logos. I remember one case where an artist in New York was shooting random people in street scenes and one Jewish man saw his face on a photo in the gallery. He promptly sued the artist for several millions of dollars saying he didn't give permission for his likeness and wouldn't have due to his religious beliefs. The case went on for 3 or so years costing tens of thousands in court fees. Eventually the photographer won, and it was lucky he was insured.

So, if you sell photos, a) make sure you have liability insurance, and b) make sure you have legal insurance. If you don't have these, don't sell photos.

Found a great site concerning model release:

http://www.danheller.com/model-release.html

The contract and usage terms are a more pressing matter, does anybody have tips on how to write that? I'm totally clueless! Thanks!

I presume you work? I also presume you take away a wage. If your company said to you, "hey, we want you to work for us, but we thought we'd save the trouble of all this financial stuff, and you can do it for free.", you'd probably tell them to piss off.I think that's apples and oranges mate. I'm a data monkey by trade, and yeah, if my employer wanted me to do some free monkeying I'd respond pretty much how you suggested. But if I did some monkeying on some data that interested me and had nothing to do with work, and I put it out in public for people to look at, it would not bother me in the slightest if somebody took it and made themselves a buck or two.

I don't buy the bit about someone making money equalling me losing money, if I did I wouldn't put stuff out and invite people to use and re-use it. There are things you gain by giving stuff away that can't be measured on a balance sheet. Having said that, I only give away small sizes, and every company that's ever asked me for a large version has had to pay for it :)

And the pro photographers who can't adapt are in the same boat as the professional portrait painters who were put out of a job by photographers. The ones who can adapt are in no danger of failing to feed the kids.

By the way, I think you have an excellent eye for photography. You should put up some of your photos for sale, they are top notch.

Oh thanks! Where should I put them up for sale at? Stock sites?
I've been saving up for a better camera, because most of these sites want larger resolutions than what I can put out. Any other tips?

I can tell her that I would normally charge $200 for such requests, but since it's a charity, I can be pretty flexible. I will ask her what her budget allows.

Now, about the contract and usage terms, I'm completely clueless. Can somebody help me write that up or point me in the right direction? I don't want her to see that I'm bullshitting.

Anyone? I still haven't replied, I'm not sure what to say at this point.

Anyone? I still haven't replied, I'm not sure what to say at this point.Have a look at the agreements on a few of the stock photo sites. There's a really basic royalty-free licence here (http://chicksinchainmail.com/ebay/Royalty_Free_License.doc) that you could use as a starting point, and add or remove conditions as required. (Disclaimer: this is random internet advice and I'm not an expert on the subject.)

Have a look at the agreements on a few of the stock photo sites. There's a really basic royalty-free licence here (http://chicksinchainmail.com/ebay/Royalty_Free_License.doc) that you could use as a starting point, and add or remove conditions as required. (Disclaimer: this is random internet advice and I'm not an expert on the subject.)
But am I the one responsible for writing the contract? Can't they just write something up and I can consult with you guys, and agree if everything's alright?

Thanks mugley and everyone!

^^I hope you won't mind me asking but what camera did you use to take those pics bro?

^^I hope you won't mind me asking but what camera did you use to take those pics bro?

Just my old, simple point-and-shoot, Sony Cybershot DSC-W1.

I think that's apples and oranges mate. I'm a data monkey by trade, and yeah, if my employer wanted me to do some free monkeying I'd respond pretty much how you suggested. But if I did some monkeying on some data that interested me and had nothing to do with work, and I put it out in public for people to look at, it would not bother me in the slightest if somebody took it and made themselves a buck or two.

I don't buy the bit about someone making money equalling me losing money, if I did I wouldn't put stuff out and invite people to use and re-use it. There are things you gain by giving stuff away that can't be measured on a balance sheet. Having said that, I only give away small sizes, and every company that's ever asked me for a large version has had to pay for it :)


Sorry, I still don't understand your point. Say you put something on the internet, some nice bit of code you wrote, and a company freely took that away and used it, then made a complete fortune from it whilst you earned nothing. Are you still telling me that you would feel fine and happy about that situation? It's the same with photography. A photo can be used in an advertising campaign which could net the company enormous sums of money from the use of your photo which you got nothing. If it is as you say "apple's and oranges" then that's because it's the same basket of fruit on the same pudding.


And the pro photographers who can't adapt are in the same boat as the professional portrait painters who were put out of a job by photographers. The ones who can adapt are in no danger of failing to feed the kids.

This has nothing to do with adapting. This is corporations exploiting people for free products. It's a completely different thing to give photos away to the general public for private use, someone who emails you and Say's, "oh, that's a great photo, I grew up there... you wouldn't mind me having a copy for my desktop", but a company that say's "hi, we would like to use your photo in a multimillion dollar advertising campaign. A large number of people will be making good money in this, but we would like to offer you zilch because we feel we can exploit your lack of knowledge in this industry, can we have the photo".... and you say "Why, yes sir" and then tell me it's about professional photographers "adapting".

Sorry, that's utter bollocks. Photographers adapt all the time to what the market needs are, this has nothing to do with it.

It's exactly like workers saying that they would be happy to work for free as long as the company supplies them a loaf of bread every day to eat. If enough people done this, it would force the wages down for everyone else or make them work for nothing either.

And would you tell me that the work force has to be "adaptable" if others are willing to work for free? No, because likewise, that would be utter bollocks.

Sorry, I still don't understand your point. Say you put something on the internet, some nice bit of code you wrote, and a company freely took that away and used it, then made a complete fortune from it whilst you earned nothing. Are you still telling me that you would feel fine and happy about that situation?Yeah, absolutely. In fact, people who write open-source software do exactly what you described.

and you say "Why, yes sir" and then tell me it's about professional photographers "adapting".Not exactly what I said mate. I was trying to make the point that someone making money doesn't automatically mean me losing it (I think we've got an insoluble disagreement on the nature of a photograph as a commodity there).

Sorry, that's utter bollocks. Photographers adapt all the time to what the market needs are, this has nothing to do with it.If a particular section of the market disappears because of the existence of an attractive free alternative, I'd say it has a fair bit to do with it.

Using your code example - how many people are making money writing something like a commercial DNS server? Should the people who released BIND for free feel bad for removing income opportunities for fellow coders to make a buck, or would those fellow coders need to adapt?

It's exactly like workers saying that they would be happy to work for free as long as the company supplies them a loaf of bread every day to eat. If enough people done this, it would force the wages down for everyone else or make them work for nothing either.You're still trying to say that creative works produced as a hobby are exactly the same commodity-wise as the products of paid labour. I wouldn't work for a loaf of bread, but I'd be more than happy to take photos I've made in my spare time and exchange them for a loaf of bread - in fact, I do something pretty similar with beer quite a lot.

And would you tell me that the work force has to be "adaptable" if others are willing to work for free? No, because likewise, that would be utter bollocks.Yeah it's bollocks, because the output of a hobby photographer isn't necessarily work in the first place. If I grow fruit in my yard and give it away, or raise chickens and give the eggs away, should I feel bad for removing income opportunities from primary producers and retailers? And if everyone grew their own food and the markets for production and distribution changed as a result, wouldn't those involved have to adapt?

Yeah, absolutely. In fact, people who write open-source software do exactly what you described.

This is very different to what we are discussing here. A person who develops some code and offers it for open source has made a decision right from the beginning to do this. They havn't been solicited by corporations trying to get free software from them.

If someone takes photography and offers it for total free use on the internet, I have absolutely no problems with that. What I have a problem with, is companies exploiting the general public to take their photos and make a profit out of them without even offering them money.

Surely you can see the difference!

Right from the beginning, I wrote "If a company contacts you and asks for it for free..."

I never said people shouldn't offer their photography for free.


If a particular section of the market disappears because of the existence of an attractive free alternative, I'd say it has a fair bit to do with it.

If a market disappears because the general public make their own choice to offer the service for free, that's fine with me. But if it disappears because a corporation crushes it by exploited the general public, then that is a different story.


Using your code example - how many people are making money writing something like a commercial DNS server? Should the people who released BIND for free feel bad for removing income opportunities for fellow coders to make a buck, or would those fellow coders need to adapt?

No, if they released BIND by their own choice for free, then it's a decision by themselves and that's fine. If it's released for free because they were exploited that is different.


You're still trying to say that creative works produced as a hobby are exactly the same commodity-wise as the products of paid labour. I wouldn't work for a loaf of bread, but I'd be more than happy to take photos I've made in my spare time and exchange them for a loaf of bread - in fact, I do something pretty similar with beer quite a lot.

What has that got to do with what I am saying. If you exchange your photos for a loaf of bread, then you are trading.

I think you are arguing here for the sake of it.


Yeah it's bollocks, because the output of a hobby photographer isn't necessarily work in the first place. If I grow fruit in my yard and give it away, or raise chickens and give the eggs away, should I feel bad for removing income opportunities from primary producers and retailers? And if everyone grew their own food and the markets for production and distribution changed as a result, wouldn't those involved have to adapt?

I really think you have trouble with what I am saying. So, for the third time in this post I will explain it again.

If you decide to give away your apples for free that is absolutely fine. Whoever or whatever company you give it to. That is your choice.

However, if you were approached by McDonalds who asked to have your apples for their pies and asked for them for free, then I think that is wrong. If you said Yes, then you are either so impressed to have your apples used in McDonalds Pies or very stupid when you could sell them. And McDonalds would have conned you really well.

Moral of story, choose to offer your photos for free, but if a corporation tries to exploit you, you can either accept being exploited, or you can ask for a fair trade.

I really think you have trouble with what I am saying. So, for the third time in this post I will explain it again.I think that trouble has been mutual. We actually pretty much agree on the subject but both of us have been assuming the other doesn't see our point. And we've got a fundamental disagreement about the nature of giving away something of value that could see us arguing in circles forever.

Apologies for getting you a little worked up and giving the impression that I'm arguing for the sake of it. So I'll leave it here and try to let the tone of conversation in this thread get back to a slightly less aggressive level.

I think that trouble has been mutual. We actually pretty much agree on the subject but both of us have been assuming the other doesn't see our point. And we've got a fundamental disagreement about the nature of giving away something of value that could see us arguing in circles forever.

Apologies for getting you a little worked up and giving the impression that I'm arguing for the sake of it. So I'll leave it here and try to let the tone of conversation in this thread get back to a slightly less aggressive level.


Good point, and now worries. Besides, we shouldn't ruin this thread with our own bickering ;O)

Okay, back on topic!
I got a response back! She agreed to the $200:

Hi Sergei,
That amount should be fine. If you would like to make a contribution, I will leave that to your discretion- what you can do is invoice us for the full amount and then make a donation.

What is the next step in the process? Will you send me a full-res image and then invoice me?

Thanks again for your help and your great photography!
Sarah

So what is the next step?

On a sidenote, I have a little issue now, since my computer where all my originals are kept is broken now. I better get it fixed soon. I'm kicking myself for not backing my photos up somewhere else!

Okay, back on topic!
I got a response back! She agreed to the $200:
So what is the next step?


The simplest solution here is to upload it to a hosting site where people can buy through their system. I know Smugmug do this, but you have to pay at least a years subscription, and for one sale it's probably not worth it. Though, with the way your photos seem to be requested maybe it's something to think about. These sites are great as they allow people to professionally buy downloads with their credit card and they take very little for themselves.

Another one is Shutterpoint which is way cheaper but they keep 15%.

The key here is how to transfer money and product professionally, and in a way your customer feels safe. Maybe even e-bay is an option, It does allow a way for the customer to easily pay for the photo and then you can email it to her. It may also be perfect for a one off or limited sales. I've never tried this but found this regarding it; http://bermangraphics.com/press/ebay.htm

I can't help you on the manual way, as I do everything automated (which costs) and have a registered company and pay tax. But I'm sure someone here or who you know can help you out. Just keep it simple and make it look professional. Afterall, she may come back for more :O)


On a sidenote, I have a little issue now, since my computer where all my originals are kept is broken now. I better get it fixed soon. I'm kicking myself for not backing my photos up somewhere else!

This one is easy, as long as it's not the hard drive broken, just remove it and plug it into another computer, maybe a friends or family. Copy all the important files across to a DVD.

TMaybe even e-bay is an option, It does allow a way for the customer to easily pay for the photo and then you can email it to her. It may also be perfect for a one off or limited sales.If you've got an ebay account you should have a paypal account with it. You can go into the paypal account settings and generate a payment request which is sent to the the nominated email address. Then your customer follows the link in the email and pays by credit card. Once you see the payment appear, email the file (or host it somewhere temporarily and send a private URL).

Paypal let you do about 6 transactions a year on the free account.

Thanks guys.

Yes, I have a PayPal account, and for this time, it's probably how I will do it. Later, I'll think about setting something else up.

Hey guys!

I finally heard back from them. I kinda gave up hope and thought it would be like the last time, but they wrote me back telling me to invoice them. I asked if we could use PayPal, they said I should rather invoice them through mail, and they'll send a cheque. They gave me their address.

Now, how do I go about creating an invoice?

Thanks! :)

^You can make one on your own in MS Word pretty easily.

Include:
Your address and phone number (put "Remit to" above it)
Customer's contact info (put "Bill to" above it)
Invoice Number (randomly assign one, i.e., 00001)
Account Number (randomly assign one)
Description of the Order
Amount
Near the bottom you can put Subtotal, Sales Tax, Total Due

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/91/249514265_c6bb8944dd.jpg

Yea, I know, it's not even that good ... don't know why they want it. Maybe it's some sort of scam? :lol:


I know very well why they want it! It´s unbelievable, it looks more like an art than a photography.

^You can make one on your own in MS Word pretty easily.

Include:
Your address and phone number (put "Remit to" above it)
Customer's contact info (put "Bill to" above it)
Invoice Number (randomly assign one, i.e., 00001)
Account Number (randomly assign one)
Description of the Order
Amount
Near the bottom you can put Subtotal, Sales Tax, Total Due
Oh thanks!
Any visual examples?

^Just make some tables. Experiment.

^Just make some tables. Experiment.
Haha, ok ok, I will!
I just don't want to look like an amateur to them, even though I am! :colgate:

Maybe there are some templates on the net.

Well, I just sent the invoice! Thanks for the help!
With my first sale, I hope to buy the 50mm lens I wanted!