Someone's take on the "Reform" report from a year or so ago:

MURDER
Leeds is the 3rd worst Urban Area per capita for murder in England and Wales with 19 murders committed last year. With an average of 4.29 murders per 100,000 citizens, it is just behind Nottingham and St Helens.

RAPE
Leeds came 3rd in the rape league behind Peterborough and Portsmouth. Leeds had hoped to win this title, but Lotto Rapist Iorwarth Hoare's decision not to relocate to his former city upon his release from jail dented their rape title ambitions

ASSAULT
Leeds finished a lowly 7th out of the 57 competing urban areas. Leicester topped the league, followed by Bradford, Rotherham, St Helens, Nottingham and Blackpool

BURGLARY
Leeds were pipped to top spot by Stockport, who had 42.21 burglaries per 100,000 citizens compared with Leeds' 41.51. A narrow margin between the transpennine burglary rivals.

Liverpool came a lowly 23rd, surprisingly.

ROBBERY
Leeds performed poorly in the robbery scores, finishing a lowly 12th out of 57. Manchester, unsurprisingly, topped the league.

VEHICLE CRIME
Former title holder Leeds could only manage 7th in the Vehicle Crime League. Nottingham continued their good season by picking up the accolade

GUN CRIME
The "Embassy World Title" of the crime world saw a fierce battle between West Yorkshire rivals Leeds and Bradford.

Leeds, with it's impressive haul of 552 offences in its population of 443,247 looked like emerging as a clear winner, with only London, who finished 10th, recording more offences. But Bradford clocked up a whopping 368 offences in its population of 293,717 to nick the title from under Leeds' nose.

Bradford's final figure of 12.53 firearms offences per 10,000 people just pipped Leeds' 12.45.

Pre-season favorites Nottingham and Manchester finished 4th and 15th respectively. Manchester managed a meagre 2.92 gun crimes per 10,000 citizens

OVERALL
With such impressive form in each of the disciplines, Leeds were confident of emerging as the overall winners. Alas, the dream was not to be. Nottingham's 115.54 crimes per 1,000 people took the glory, it was just like the old days. Leeds, just like under Don Revie, were to be bridesmaids only

Bradford in 4th place meant West Yorkshire had had a successful season.

With Stockport 3rd, Manchester 5th, Oldham 6th and Bolton 7th, it was a good season for the Greater Mancunians also

8th and 9th place went to Rotherham and Sheffield, representing South Yorkshire.

And in Merseyside's poor performance, only St Helens' scraping into the top 10 gave the region any 'crime success'.

They failed to mention that they only included half of St Helens' population, giving it much worse figures than it is in reality.

Liverpool came a lowly 23rd, surprisingly.

Why is that surprising?

Joy as city crime plunges – but fear of upsurge in culture yearMay 28 2007




by Jessica Shaughnessy, Liverpool Daily Post


CRIME in Liverpool’s city centre has reached its lowest levels in a decade but businesses fear a massive rise in 2008.

Merseyside Police and the Chamber of Commerce’s Business Crime Direct team (BCD) are celebrating a 32.6% reduction in the last year.

Now city centre leaders say plans need to be put in place to keep crime levels down when 2m extra visitors pour into the city during Capital of Culture year.

Manager of the BCD team Peter Jones said: “We have seen fantastic results over the last 12 months. Policing and joint business initiatives mean the city centre is safer than ever.

“But it is important that we keep up the momentum. Capital of Culture will mean hundreds of thousands more people are coming to the city and it has the potential to mean a big increase in crime rates.




Story continues

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“We have to make sure we in-tegrate businesses coming to the city in 2008 and organisations hosting events make sure this does not have an impact on the work we have been doing.”


Between January and March this year, 2,505 crimes were recorded, compared to 3,716 in the same period of 2006. There were 488 less offences committed in the city centre compared to the quarter before, when crime levels were already at an all-time low.


New figures show:


Violent crime has been reduced by 24% in a year.


Between January and March, robbery fell by 31% compared to the three months before.


Criminal damage in the city centre has reduced by 20% compared to 4.8% across Merseyside.


Drugs offences have been cut by nearly a half.


Police and the Chamber of Commerce credit the success with a number of joint initiatives to combat crime.


Mr Jones said figures next year are expected to rise, but steps are already being put in place to ensure they are proportionate.


The BCD team and the police are already working with the management team of the new Paradise Street shopping centre Liverpool 1. Plans have been outlined for Grosvenor’s security team and it is understood the company may even pay for extra dedicated police officers.


Chief Inspector John Hogan, police chief for the city centre, said: “The latest crime figures are far better then any I’ve seen for any other compar-able city centre. Quite obviously we have been doing something that works very well to reduce crime, and have been doing that consis-tently for the last three years.


“Our success is down to total team effort.The test now is to maintain our success through the 800th birthday festivities and the Year of Culture.”

^^It's surprising because Liverpool is associated with a robbery and drug culture in society. I don't know the figures for Birmingham but they are lower than I thought.

^^It's surprising because Liverpool is associated with a robbery and drug culture in society.

Only amongst fuckwits, Erebus, as it's been one of England's safer big cities for decades. And you'd not want to one of those, would you?

I think Sheffield's meant to be (?one of?) the safest large city in the UK. But you are more likely to get your car nicked than other places. :lol:

Only amongst fuckwits, Erebus, as it's been one of England's safer big cities for decades. And you'd not want to one of those, would you?

I know it is, but this is the impression people have of Liverpool. It is like Birmingham's association with a concrete jungle... :ohno:

Though personally, I would associate Manchester with crime more than Liverpool as you tend to here about murders more often in Manchester than any other place outside London.

Though personally, I would associate Manchester with crime more than Liverpool as you tend to here about murders more often in Manchester than any other place outside London.

April 2005 - March 2006 Greater Manchester had 45 homicides, compared to 49 in the West Midlands. Birmingham saw 23, Manchester saw 11.

Within the city boundary Glasgow usually get between 40 and 60 murders a year ( depending on the weather ). Average of more than three stabbings a day within the city boundary. Largely the serious crime is confined to the schemes and Glasgow was ranked safest city in UK for businesses and one of the safest city centres in the world.

April 2005 - March 2006 Greater Manchester had 45 homicides, compared to 49 in the West Midlands. Birmingham saw 23, Manchester saw 11.

Number of Crimes per 1,000 Population in Home Office Statistics 2005-6.

Manchester 51.0
Birmingham 30.5

England/Wales average 25.8

Number of Crimes per 1,000 Population in Home Office Statistics 2005-6.

Manchester 51.0
Birmingham 30.5

That's true enough, but the main reason for that is that inner city wards make up a higher proportion of Manchester's population compared to Birmingham due to the restricted boundaries. That's why I posted the metro county murder figures first, and also why I was shocked that Birmingham has a higher murder rate than Manchester!

With Stockport 3rd, Manchester 5th, Oldham 6th and Bolton 7th, it was a good season for the Greater Mancunians also

Like footy, we have 4 in the Premier League! :lol:

April 2005 - March 2006 Greater Manchester had 45 homicides, compared to 49 in the West Midlands. Birmingham saw 23, Manchester saw 11.

April 2005 - March 2006 Manchester had 4,541 thefts of a motor vehicle, Liverpool had 3,137 with a larger population. Almost 29% less.

Just shows you what positive and negative media presentation can accomplish in the propaganda war. All those cartoons of vehicles without wheels should have featured Manchester, and I guess Harry Enfield just found the Manc. accent too hard to imitate

To be fair that effeminate nasal whine is hard to master. Very unfair that Liverpool should have been labelled scally capital then with its neighbour robbing, shooting and shafting left, right and centre. Unfortunately I think Glasgow probably takes top spot in murders and violent crime. Not much gun crime up here fortunately, christ if they liked guns up here I think the city would vanish fairly quickly.

In todays paper it reoprted that crime in Liverpool’s city centre has reached its lowest levels in a decade.

New figures show:
Violent crime has been reduced by 24% in a year.

Between January and March, robbery fell by 31% compared to the three months before.

Criminal damage in the city centre has reduced by 20% compared to 4.8% across Merseyside.

Drugs offences have been cut by nearly a half.

Were still heading in the right direction.

Liverpool's statistic for what I said earlier is Liverpool 45.4. I imagine that's fallen as Paul D has just posted.

Good news for Liverpool. Generally I think most violent crime is reducing everywhere.
It's crimes such as vandalism etc that are high in todays society.

I've always gone by this data for cities crime rates.

http://www.reform.co.uk/filestore/pdf/Urban%20crime%20rankings,%20Reform,%202006.pdf

Obviously there are flaws in every system of statistical crime measurement, and I'm not fond of crude ranking systems of social issues, but who's going to deny that they make interesting reading? Based on 2004/5 figures for violence against the person, sexual offences, robbery, burglary, theft of and theft from a car, the worst 10 'large cities/areas' are

Nottingham 156 crimes per 1000 people
Hull 130/1000
Manchester 128/1000
City of Westminster 127/1000
Islington 121/1000
Middlesbrough 121/1000
Bristol 112/1000
Peterborough 111/1000
Liverpool 110/1000
Hackney 108/1000

The 'safest' 10 are..

Greenwich 85/1000
Burnley 85/1000
Newham 87/1000
Newport 88/1000
Newcastle 88/1000
Cardiff 89/1000
Portsmouth 89/1000
Gloucester 89/1000
Leeds 90/1000
Mansfield 90/1000.

Obviously this data needs to be taken with a pinch of salt, but it is interesting.

No matter what figures say if you look at someone in the wrong way anywhere you're likely to get your head stamped on,no matter where you are.

To be fair that effeminate nasal whine is hard to master. Very unfair that Liverpool should have been labelled scally capital then with its neighbour robbing, shooting and shafting left, right and centre. Unfortunately I think Glasgow probably takes top spot in murders and violent crime. Not much gun crime up here fortunately, christ if they liked guns up here I think the city would vanish fairly quickly.

That is the nub of the matter, you have to look at who tells the tale.

Where are most people's impressions of Liverpool formed... by regular visits to the city or from a media community from which Liverpool has been barred since WWII?

Whether poverty, employment, quality of life, football, whinging scousers or crime stats I imagine that most people's impressions of Liverpool are incorrect... The city suffers greatly because of this stereotyping, yet the city is slagged off when a complaint manages to get aired! The perpetuators of these myths are never checked either.. bastards!

Yep. Look on the bright side, you have the mother of all positive PR campaigns next year. Time to turn the tables.

Whether poverty, employment, quality of life, football, whinging scousers or crime stats I imagine that most people's impressions of Liverpool are incorrect... The city suffers greatly because of this stereotyping, yet the city is slagged off when a complaint manages to get aired! The perpetuators of these myths are never checked either.. bastards!

You can't have it both ways. Scousers do like to play up to some of the stereotypes. God knows where the "scousers are funny" myth came from, I'd say, if anything, the opposite is true, but scousers have embraced it as an intrinsic part of their nature as if it were an immutable fact!

Then there's the 'good-natured', 'salt-of-the-earth' type platitudes which are heaped on the city from all quarters, you gladly accept these.

Still, it goes to show that ALL these stereotypes, good and bad, are essentially bollocks. Manchester is supposed to be home to strutting, gun wielding gangsters. Yet there is, in the initial report, relatively little gun crime in Manchester's core with 12 times as many firearms offences being committed in Bradford. Yet Bradford isn't really associated with gun crimes

but why the social analysis about Liverpool Mrecko? You would not do this about any other city?

you could say the same for all stereotypes.. east end, glaswegians... you don't though.

I think your post just confirms some of the irritating attitudes that we have to face on a daily fucking basis... how do you 'know' these stereotypes are correct as you claim? Do you live here? Do you follow the Liverpool press? Have you family from here that you regularly see?.. or do simply read the fucking national papers and watch stupid programmes that perpetuate this shit as truth? How do you come about your 'facts'

I suggested crime stats as one clear counter to the percieved notion about Liverpool and its reputation.. borne out by some of the stuff below, if that hadn't been provided then no doubt you would have added car thefts and drug taking to your list of 'facts' about Liverpool.

A good example of this was the Ken Bigley case... all the national press going on about how we where reveling in misery and self pity.. leading most notoriously to that Spectator article, when the truth was there was nothing more in Liverpool than the normal human reaction that decent people in all cities did..i.e pity the man and his family. More recently was the football incidents in Athens.... effin hell, you saw some of that shit on the football thread.... but in the Liverpool papers there was nothing of the sort, with regards to 'defending the scum'.. quite the contrary. There was even a letter printed last night titled 'scum'...go and check it out? None of this mattered though as the desparate need to castigate Liverpool the shithole was more important to those who form 'opinion' in this country.. again, why?

Why are you so obsessed with us? An answer to that question may give us an interesting insight into this type of socialogical exploration everytime something happens in Liverpool or involves Liverpudlians!

you're obsessed man!

I think the crime stats belw should knock some of your preconceptions about us out of your head... give it a go with some of your other notions?

but why the social analysis about Liverpool Mrecko? You would not do this about any other city?

you could say the same for all stereotypes.. east end, glaswegians... you don't though.

I think your post just confirms some of the irritating attitudes that we have to face on a daily fucking basis... how do you 'know' these stereotypes are correct as you claim? Do you live here? Do you follow the Liverpool press? Have you family from here that you regularly see?.. or do simply read the fucking national papers and watch stupid programmes that perpetuate this shit as truth? How do you come about your 'facts'

I suggested crime stats as one clear counter to the percieved notion about Liverpool and its reputation.. borne out by some of the stuff below, if that hadn't been provided then no doubt you would have added car thefts and drug taking to your list of 'facts' about Liverpool.

A good example of this was the Ken Bigley case... all the national press going on about how we where reveling in misery and self pity.. leading most notoriously to that Spectator article, when the truth was there was nothing more in Liverpool than the normal human reaction that decent people in all cities did..i.e pity the man and his family. More recently was the football incidents in Athens.... effin hell, you saw some of that shit on the football thread.... but in the Liverpool papers there was nothing of the sort, with regards to 'defending the scum'.. quite the contrary. There was even a letter printed last night titled 'scum'...go and check it out? None of this mattered though as the desparate need to castigate Liverpool the shithole was more important to those who form 'opinion' in this country.. again, why?

Why are you so obsessed with us? An answer to that question may give us an interesting insight into this type of socialogical exploration everytime something happens in Liverpool or involves Liverpudlians!

you're obsessed man!

I think the crime stats belw should knock some of your preconceptions about us out of your head... give it a go with some of your other notions?

Are you talking about the stereotypes I referred to as "bollocks" in my previous post?

You say I could do the same 'social analysis' for anywhere, but choose Liverpool. To be fair, it wasn't me who brought it up and I stand by my claim that for all the ill-feeling caused by the negative scouse stereotype, your people welcome the positive stereotypes. And Liverpool, above and beyond every other city, actually has a nationally recognised stereotype woven into the cultural fabric of our society

I couldn't do the same for Manchester for example because there is no stereotype. There is no such thing as being 'typically Manc', it just labours under a generic northern stereotype

I'm obsessed with Liverpool now? My brothers, who have posted here in the past, were often accused of having an obsession with Manchester. Strange that, for all our obsessiveness, none of us ever post in the Manc or Liverpool forums

I'd say there is a 'typical manc' stereotype - really arrogant, stubborn and big-headed with his collar up walking like a twat with two tellies under each arm. But we all know thats bollocks.

No stereotypes are true, since big cities have all walks of life from granny stabbers to charity working nuns. I think your right about embracing the positive stereotypes though, I remember that ultra-windy day in the winter just gone, people in their cars were getting into daft situations and running out of petrol etc in traffic jams. On the radio they had loads of calls from people offering help and the DJ kept saying "wow - this just wouldn't happen in any other city", "only in liverpool" etc. I imagine the same would happen in every other city/town/village in the UK since nice people do actually exist outside of Merseyside.

Are you talking about the stereotypes I referred to as "bollocks" in my previous post?

You say I could do the same 'social analysis' for anywhere, but choose Liverpool. To be fair, it wasn't me who brought it up and I stand by my claim that for all the ill-feeling caused by the negative scouse stereotype, your people welcome the positive stereotypes. And Liverpool, above and beyond every other city, actually has a nationally recognised stereotype woven into the cultural fabric of our society

I couldn't do the same for Manchester for example because there is no stereotype. There is no such thing as being 'typically Manc', it just labours under a generic northern stereotype

I'm obsessed with Liverpool now? My brothers, who have posted here in the past, were often accused of having an obsession with Manchester. Strange that, for all our obsessiveness, none of us ever post in the Manc or Liverpool forums


no.. I meant the ones when you said that stereotypes are all bollocks, giving an example of gun toting mancs.. but then went on to insist that all those of Liverpudlians are, however, right?

I agree that those cities with a strong cultural identity gives cause for those identities to be skewered and exagerated, but again, this is exactly what you did with teh Liverpool ones!

The 'obsession' is slightly tongue in cheek... aimed at why you have such lucid ideas about what you think Liverpool is? It is the same in the national media, complete ignorance but a strong opinion and a desperation to spread it... WTF?

I imagine that Liverpool is not the only city to not take offense at positive stereotypes.... see, even with that you try to make a case of some unique Liverpool freakery.. what are we suppose to do.. write to the Guardian pleasding the case that we are really all dour bastards?

Anyway, the thread is a good start in highlighting some interesting dimensions about all our cities.. hopefully people will contribute other non-economic/development stats to complement all the stuff put on other threads?

You misunderstand me. I believe all the stereotypes are bollocks but believe the people of Liverpool play up to certain ones like the "funny" one. Which I suppose makes me guilty of stereotyping.

That said, this hasn't come from nowhere. There's a weight of experience behind this generalisation

Let's just agree that scousers are generally obnoxious :) (joke)

Fair enough.. we can agree that you are not aware that you are helping to perpetuate silly stereotypes.. making your case that they are true. :)

your monika is the name of the local Liverpool evening paper by the way... (well almost)

I always get a local paper when I visit other places and always found the Echo to be top notch.

Funnily enough, when I first bought a copy I was really expecting some garish, over-the-top, scouse hype rag! I was wrong, it's a really good title (even if I have only read it 5 or 6 times)

These statistics are always skewed by the way in which city borders are delineated.

Hull is constantly ranked near the bottom of these types of tables because the unitary authority area is limited to the inner city, whilst it's affluent, wealthy suburbs, although part of a continuous urban area are actually part of the East Riding (Kirk Ella, Cottingham, Willerby, Anlaby etc. etc.)

Somewhere like Leeds on the other hand has a huge city region border that includes many undeniably rural, well to do villages and towns. This has the effect of balancing out it's inner city crime statistics.

Hull is actually one of the few medium/large cities in the country in which gun crime is almost unheard of.

These statistics are always skewed by the way in which city borders are delineated...

Somewhere like Leeds has a huge city region border that includes many undeniably rural, well to do villages and towns. This has the effect of balancing out it's inner city crime statistics.

But in this report, the Reform one, the one used for the original post, cities are (largely) not defined by their council boundaries

Leeds for instance is quoted as having a population of 400,00, just as Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool are. The comparison is of inner city areas. That is why Leeds came second.

Hull came 12th out of 57

I don't think any serious criminologist/social statistician would compile a league table of crime using using such peculiar things as city boundaries.

These "Reform" types seem to be doing a fair job and I can't understand why Nottingham went do-lally about it. Take London out the equation and they are comparing like for like as best as is possible IMO

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:dyryGaVfRToJ:www.reform.co.uk/filestore/pdf/Urban%2520crime%2520rankings,%2520Reform,%25202006.pdf+reform+crime+report&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

Apologies for my oversight. It's been a long day! I was basing my comments on the stats posted by JamesWales.

My comments still stand for many of these types of stories reported in the national media though.

That still doesnt make sense though? Because 400,000 in Leeds might not cover the whole inner city, but 400,000 in Manchester/Sheffield cover the whole inner city and more...

That still doesnt make sense though? Because 400,000 in Leeds might not cover the whole inner city, but 400,000 in Manchester/Sheffield cover the whole inner city and more...

So basically you're claiming that inner city Leeds is larger than inner city Manchester? Give me a break... :nuts:

No not really =/ just saying for examples sake.

I always get a local paper when I visit other places and always found the Echo to be top notch.

Funnily enough, when I first bought a copy I was really expecting some garish, over-the-top, scouse hype rag! I was wrong, it's a really good title (even if I have only read it 5 or 6 times)

LOL! That is proof of my case right there... us Liverpudlians are disappointed by the Echo as it does not stimulte the intelect enough.. it panders to the lowest common denominator and yet visitors always think it is a cool paper!

Seriously... The Echo is alright, especially compared to most other cities provincial rags... that is a commentary on regional press rather than the folks who read them by the way!!!!

We also have the only metropolitan business newspaper in the country, the Daily Post, which is a much better paper than the Echo.

It is little things like this that show that Liverpool runs to a different rhythmn than many assume.

These statistics are always skewed by the way in which city borders are delineated.

Hull is constantly ranked near the bottom of these types of tables because the unitary authority area is limited to the inner city, whilst it's affluent, wealthy suburbs, although part of a continuous urban area are actually part of the East Riding (Kirk Ella, Cottingham, Willerby, Anlaby etc. etc.)

Somewhere like Leeds on the other hand has a huge city region border that includes many undeniably rural, well to do villages and towns. This has the effect of balancing out it's inner city crime statistics.

Hull is actually one of the few medium/large cities in the country in which gun crime is almost unheard of.

surely 'crimes per 1k of population' evens all this out into some sort of average.. actual metro population etc does not matter?

EVERYONE - Don't let this thread descend into another 'who has the biggest penis..,er I mean biggest downtown' rant please... we all know anyway that the biggest is Liverpool's!

We're still way behind the Yanks, industrial cities like Cleveland and Cincinnati still have murder rates in the 20's per 100k and the City of Compton in California has it in the 60's

We're still way behind the Yanks, industrial cities like Cleveland and Cincinnati still have murder rates in the 20's per 100k and the City of Compton in California has it in the 60's

Let's keep on topic guys. The thread's title is 'Crime in Our Cities' not Crime in the World's Cities.

Let's keep on topic guys. The thread's title is 'Crime in Our Cities' not Crime in the World's Cities.

True but it's boring.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=458351&in_page_id=1770

The perceived 'Capital of Crime' doesn't even make the top 10, whilst those hot beds of respectability Oxford and Cambridge do. To say nothing of New Labour's favourite coming in at number 8.

Im sick of Nottingham always being in the spotlight for crime. The fucking media never have anything positive to say about the place.
They never seem to address the fact that Nottingham's gun crime problem was 3/4 years ago and it has since improved dramatically.
Shootings in the city have plumited because of police operations which tackled the gangs which were working here. They are also working close with the public in the affected areas and it has proved a massive success.
Burglary may still be high but it is decreasing like many other crimes in the city.
Give us a break.

a whinging Nottiger? Only kidding... really!

Just imagine, Liverpool has had to suffer decade upon decade of this faith sapping crap... feeding the prejudices of everyone from government, to business leaders in charge of inward investment, down to potential tourists and parents of girls who have just met a scouser.... terrible shite you have to put up with, when everyone 'knows' that the place is plagued with scum... and that it is 'all true'.

I think the words of the Council leader sums up the problems for a city this type of stuff creates pretty nicely... now, will you all put the 'whinging scouser/lumpen prole/doley/criminal class' into a more sophisticated context?

Nottingham never gets any publicity apart from crime headlines. it's absurd the power that the media has over people. i feel the pain of the Scousers big time.

You can't have it both ways. Scousers do like to play up to some of the stereotypes. God knows where the "scousers are funny" myth came from, I'd say, if anything, the opposite is true, but scousers have embraced it as an intrinsic part of their nature as if it were an immutable fact!
No they haven't - everyone else has. The only time you ever hear about the "scouse sense of humour" is when some out-of-towner mentions it in a patronising manner (case in point).

Sure, Liverpudlians in general do like to believe in positive stereotypes - but who doesn't for fuck's sake? Nobody in this country complains when fellow Brits talk about themselves as a friendly, respectable nation or what have you. Despite being inherently bollocks, positive stereotypes at least have the redeeming feature of being nice to think about: negative stereotypes have no redeeming features whatsoever.

Nottingham never gets any publicity apart from crime headlines. it's absurd the power that the media has over people. i feel the pain of the Scousers big time.

...and with that said it's a rather strange image, I mean sure Nottingham has some dodgy areas but for the most part its filled with the brimmed with alot of very nice leafy pleasant suburbs* in all directions (don't deny it ;)) as opposed to some barren council estate hell hole you'd expect.

*although im guessing this is why it has or did have a reputation for being a burglary capital? :S

I remember in the early 90s' when Manchester tried to hijack Liverpool's reputation as a crime city... as like with NYC some of the associations are romantic, showing a city with edge etc. I reember some jerk on This Morning (of all programmes) stating loudly that it is Manchester that in fact has the high levels of gang related crime... cue New York, New York, so good they named it twice twitterings. When it was realised that it was not this crime image that was afflicing Liverpool, but slooby chav city of death imagary instead they soon dropped the absurd notion.... it was only ever exclusively negative adn has held back the city for longer than it should have been if you look at pure economies etc.

I remember in the early 90s' when Manchester tried to hijack Liverpool's reputation as a crime city... as like with NYC some of the associations are romantic, showing a city with edge etc. I reember some jerk on This Morning (of all programmes) stating loudly that it is Manchester that in fact has the high levels of gang related crime... cue New York, New York, so good they named it twice twitterings. When it was realised that it was not this crime image that was afflicing Liverpool, but slooby chav city of death imagary instead they soon dropped the absurd notion.... it was only ever exclusively negative adn has held back the city for longer than it should have been if you look at pure economies etc.

WTF?????

it was a silly little period fronted by the Manchester TV studios.. they thought they would glean the 'romance' (presumably) of being known as a city of crime... only, as we know, the UK does not work like that.. they soon dropped it.


Sounds strange I know, but!

I've never been around a city that has as many ground floor windows and doorways cased in metal shuttering and iron bars as Manchester.

True but it's boring.

Well go out tonight and mow down a few hundred people with an automatic rifle, then we can all come back on here tomorrow morning and talk about our 'exciting' crime stats!

I dont know where your getting your data from but try the ONS, Leeds is the best perfroming city out of all the core cities in the UK, with the lowest crime, lowest unemployment, lowest deprivation and one of the highest GDPs per capita.

In contrast manchester and liverpool are *far* worse.

take this comparison per capita from ONS :-

________________________LEEDS________MANCHESTER_LIVERPOOL_BRM

Violence against the person___22______________31_________37____25
Robbery offences____________2 _______________8__________4 ____5
Theft of a motor vehicle______5 ______________10__________7_____6
Sexual offences_____________1 _______________2__________1_____1
Burglary dwelling offences____11______________17__________12____9
Theft from a vehicle offences_12______________24__________16____12

SOURCE:-

http://www.upmystreet.com/local/compare/results/l/LIVERPOOL.html?c0=LIVERPOOL&c1=LEEDS-4292&compareSubmit=%9B+Compare&compareSubmit=%9B+Compare#crimeFigures

I dont know where your getting your data from but try the ONS, Leeds is the best perfroming city out of all the core cities in the UK, with the lowest crime, lowest unemployment, lowest deprivation and one of the highest GDPs per capita.

In contrast manchester and liverpool are *far* worse.

take this comparison per capita from ONS :-

________________________LEEDS________MANCHESTER_LIVERPOOL_BRM

Violence against the person___22______________31_________37____25
Robbery offences____________2 _______________8__________4 ____5
Theft of a motor vehicle______5 ______________10__________7_____6
Sexual offences_____________1 _______________2__________1_____1
Burglary dwelling offences____11______________17__________12____9
Theft from a vehicle offences_12______________24__________16____12

SOURCE:-

http://www.upmystreet.com/local/compare/results/l/LIVERPOOL.html?c0=LIVERPOOL&c1=LEEDS-4292&compareSubmit=%9B+Compare&compareSubmit=%9B+Compare#crimeFigures

Sheep rustling isn't a current trigger offence I see.

can you see any sheep rustling here -->

http://www.asuz39.dsl.pipex.com/cit

Sophistication indeed:-)

Some really good photos on that site.

Craic and banter aside, I really like the fact that I live in the middle of the five big Northern cities (Newcastle excluded, thats a trek). Just need Sheffield and Bradford to get their fingers out!

Back on subject, I don't think crime is a major problem in British cities. You have to be unlucky to get attacked on a night out, get burgled, mugged, car jacked. Most murders are either family/drug related.

Get our fingers out at what?

Like i've said before, Sheffield is meant to be the safest large city in the UK (according to some government stats somewhere). BUt you are more likely to get your car nicked than other places. ;)

yup sheffield will probably be lower than the other core cities but sheffield is more rural and less city like than all the others too, and more green

anyway, ive gotta attend to them sheep :banana:

Don't mean get their fingers out crime-prevention wise (though the Manor still needs work on it).

Mean for them to get their fingers out re-developmentwise, considering Bradford and Sheffield aren't that much smaller than Manchester, we can hope for greater things for their city centres.

When I go to Sheffield city centre, its like I remember Manchester as a kid (pre-boom). Hopefully in a few years, Sheff will be as unrecognisable a city as Manchester of yesteryear.

i think the problem with bradford is it is almost like part of the industrial work horse of leeds. Also, any wealth or creativity gravitates to leeds and is sucked out of bradford. One analagy is like its the queens district of NY, or maybe the bronx? lol

*but* there's a whole lot of regeneration going on bradford around the city centre and i think it can only come up. Much of what's bad about bradford is people's perceptions, and the negative attitude of a significant proportion of its inhabitants, which inevetably holds it back. An example is, one guy the other day was moaning about how bradord is a hell hole and its got so much crime, and his insurance premiums are so high. I suggested its probably a lot safer than many comparable cities, at which he disagreed. I got some stats out, and by example, manchester and liverpool both have higher crime, assaults, car thefts, robberies, and unemployment, and deprivation than bradford; and its likely that isurance premiums are lower in bradford than some other cities.

Sheffield's on it's way kebabmonster, and given a decade or so, will be one of the top cities in Europe. ;)

Well... we'll have to wait and see, but it's better to aim high.

Anywho. There is a lot going on in Sheffield. There's still much to be done, but it's progressing well, and there's a lot of quality developments going on. :)

I think we'll never match Manchester and Birmingham, just plainly because of the size difference. But (the Leeds people wont like me for this), when I last went to Leeds, I was expecting it wo be worlds apart from Sheffield, but to be honest, it's not. It's still way ahead in terms of wealth though. (However Sheffield has Hallam and the High Peak in it's region/suburbs, which are meant to be the two richest areas outside of London).

Sheffield is clearly on the up. I'm looking forward to my first visit there for three years or so soon for work reasons.

I suspect that, a more revitalised Sheffield will have worse crime problems than it currently does, however. It seems to be a price of a more prosperous, but also more unequal society.

Don't go expecting it to be completely different, there's a lot that's been done, but still a lot that needs doing. ;)

________________________LEEDS________MANCHESTER_LIVERPOOL_BRM

Violence against the person___22______________31_________37____25
Robbery offences____________2 _______________8__________4 ____5
Theft of a motor vehicle______5 ______________10__________7_____6
Sexual offences_____________1 _______________2__________1_____1
Burglary dwelling offences____11______________17__________12____9
Theft from a vehicle offences_12______________24__________16____12


Wow, amazing. Crime usually follows bigger cities. So considering Leeds has a population of almost double Manchester or Liverpool then it ain't doing too bad! I can't wait to see either Manchester or Liverpool on the level that Leeds is on, population wise, crime wise etc. one day.. one day.

Don't go expecting it to be completely different, there's a lot that's been done, but still a lot that needs doing. ;)

I think the problem that will always apply with Sheff is that unless you know where to look, its very hard to find things. Not too visitor friendly imo.

How many people from outside the city know where the Riverside area is, never mind be able to find it? The only places people from outside the city go are - station square (if using the train), howard st, theatres, fargate, peace gardens, division st and west st.

I know people who have come to Sheff and said how small it is, but only saw about 1/6 of the the centre because it doesnt flow and is spread out. The hills dont help but who would ever venture down to West Bar, Shalesmoor, CIQ, Castlegate, Wicker, Riverside, Victora Quays, Cathedral Quarter, Trippet lane, Paradise Sq, etc etc.

Anyway, on topic... You will feel safe when you are there :)

Yeah, I think that's what the NRQ is meant to do. Link it all together a bit better. (It's a bit 'bitty' really). And once the markets move, and castlegate is sorted out, the riverside will be much better linked into the centre. I think the main problem arises cause of the councils zoning policy. It means people don't venture into the cathederal quarter, or the riverside etc, cause theres little or no retail/cafes/etc. to attract them.

Those streets behind and around the cathedral were the nicest part of Sheffield city centre, I thought, when I was there in the now distant early 90s. "Cathedral quarter" must be a more recent coinage. I'm glad the council has noticed its obvious potential, however.

There was little reason to go to the area back then. A few restaurants and decent bars - not chain nastiness - would be great there.

Crime in Greater Manchester - a total fuck up.

Not sure the reason why, most likely it mainly stems from the piss poor eductation, and exceedingly low expectations quite a large proportion of the population of Greater Manchester have, but crime is high, too high, and not showing signs of improving as well as other parts of the UK have.

How to tackle it? God knows.

I have several friends in the police force, speaking to them and you'd believe that civilisation and society was on the verge of breaking down in some parts of the city (particularly around Old Trafford and Ordsall), their answer is for massively more punative punishments, however, I am not 100% convienced myself that the threat of a long jail sentence is going to register with the people who seem to be mini crime waves on their own.

I'd love to hear from people in Liverpool - a city with a very similar social mix to Manchester, why they believe that the crime rates are so much better in Liverpool than in Manchester - are there the same number of totally ill educated people over your way, who don't hold any respect for anyone?

When certain groups of people realise that they have been bypassed, they create an alternative culture that becomes so alien to mainstream society, they find it almost impossible to re-integrate.

There is no hope for these people because mainstream society is so frightened of them they don't know whether to imprison, monitor or just leave them and hope they don't stray too far from their own neighbourhoods.

What mainstream society will not do is embrace them.

The American solution is to imprison them for such long periods so that they are removed from society altogether. A sort of genocide without killing.

Those streets behind and around the cathedral were the nicest part of Sheffield city centre, I thought, when I was there in the now distant early 90s. "Cathedral quarter" must be a more recent coinage. I'm glad the council has noticed its obvious potential, however.

There was little reason to go to the area back then. A few restaurants and decent bars - not chain nastiness - would be great there.

Yeah I agree, it is one of the nicest areas. And most (if not all) of the resteraunts there are non-chain types. You'll probably find some quite nice places to eat there. The main problem is, it's a primeraly office area so theres not that much to draw your average visitor into the area unless they know about it already.

Crime in Greater Manchester - a total fuck up.

Not sure the reason why, most likely it mainly stems from the piss poor eductation, and exceedingly low expectations quite a large proportion of the population of Greater Manchester have, but crime is high, too high, and not showing signs of improving as well as other parts of the UK have.

How to tackle it? God knows.

I have several friends in the police force, speaking to them and you'd believe that civilisation and society was on the verge of breaking down in some parts of the city (particularly around Old Trafford and Ordsall), their answer is for massively more punative punishments, however, I am not 100% convienced myself that the threat of a long jail sentence is going to register with the people who seem to be mini crime waves on their own.

I'd love to hear from people in Liverpool - a city with a very similar social mix to Manchester, why they believe that the crime rates are so much better in Liverpool than in Manchester - are there the same number of totally ill educated people over your way, who don't hold any respect for anyone?

One important aspect for that could be that Liverpool had its crime bubble in the 70s' and early 80s' when it was in complete economic and social freefall.

I remember someone saying about how the crack epidemic died out naturally in the Bronx because everyone had become a victim..even those perpetrating the crimes. This is where all the old blag that dickheads perpetuate now (30 years later) about Liverpool being the crime capital etc... another era...another city almost!


There is only a certain depth to which a community can sink at any one time.. and Liverpool did it, earlier than other cities, but came out of it earlier too. In one respect we where lucky in that certain crime patterns that have recently manifested in other cities sort of missed the boat in Liverpool,, as most where not doing 'crime' any more. If your mother and your aunty, sister and relatives have all been victims, sometimes repeated victims you begin to have some empathy.... knowing and comprehending the consequences of your actions.. first hand... somthing of a deterent? Most people do not want to live in hellholes, and it can come as something of a shock to understnd that it is you and your actions that is the problem.

Crime in Greater Manchester - a total fuck up.


It's actually not that bad, and is on the decrease!

It's more about combatting the fear of crime, which is disproportionate.