Preserving and Promoting Non-Tagalog Philippine Languages [Archive]

kiretoce

August 16th, 2005, 09:34 PM

KONYO ENGLISH
(Taken from www.wikipedia.org)

History of the term

The origin of the term "Konyo" or "coño" to refer to the affluent members of Philippine society draws from an earlier (1800's) usage of the word coño to refer to Peninsular Spanish expatriates living in colonies such as the Philippines and Latin America. This, in turn, was a result of the ultra-excessive use of the word coño as a swear word and expletive on the part of Peninsular Spaniards beginning sometime in the 1800's and continuing today. Many Latin Americans and educated Filipinos of the late 1800's, while they spoke Spanish, did not always use the same oral expressions that Peninsular Spaniards from the "Mother Country" used. Aside from the "ceceo" (pronouncing the "Z" or the "C" in "ce" or "ci" as a soft "TH" sound), the over-used coño expression set the expatriate Spaniards apart from the native-born locals. Coño thus became a term that certain Latin Americans (as well as Filipinos of the late 1800's) used for Spaniards which was in analogous fashion to how New Zealanders and Australians continue to refer to the British (especially the English) as "Pommies."

The usage of coño as the favorite expletive for expatriate Spaniards therefore gave them the label. As these expatriate Spaniards, referred to colloquially as "coños, were at the top of the food chain in the Philippines and generally held the highest prestige, the term coño later on found itself being used on the broader creole and mestizo caste who may not necessarily have been of Spanish descent (some were of French, German, Lebanese, etc backgrounds).

As time went by, the label's usage broadened further to include most members of the Philippine upper classes, regardless of their racial background. Today, rich people who are seen to have a very affluent standard of living, even if they are of Chinese-mestizo or native Filipino descent are sometimes referred to as being coño."

The word coño often requires a certain Eurocentric orientation, since the richest members of Philippine Society - namely, the ethnic-Chinese Taipan class - do not even qualify for the label due to their non-European orientation. That the word coño originally meant "cunt" and later meant "Spaniard" has surely gone a long way to becoming a word associated with a certain Euro-centric sector of the upper crust of Philippine society shows just how far a word's meaning can change.

The Origin of Konyo English

There is no definitive explanation why some people use this corrupted form of English, and why only a certain sector of society predominantly uses it. One plausible hypothesis has been proposed regarding the origins of Konyo English, namely, an attempt by younger members of the affluent and highly prestigious Creole caste (people of noticeable European / Caucasian descent) of Manila to assimilate or be accepted into mainstream Tagalog-speaking society.

Prior to World War II, Spanish was predominantly spoken in the homes of the upper class Creole families (usually of Basque descent), the situation altered drastically after World War II's liberation from the Japanese and the granting of Independence by the USA to the Philippines. The Americans were seen as benevolent liberators and the prestige level of American English increased at the expense of Spanish. Creole and upper-class families thus began shifting their focus towards making English the first or major language of their children. Some Creole families tried to maintain the use of Spanish at home, but due to the heavy influence of English-language media and the need to communicate with their peers in the English-oriented exclusive "schools for the very rich" ensured that English would be the language that such children of affluent families would grow to be most comfortable in.

By the time many of these children entered Manila-based Philippine universities, they had to contend with their exposure to a large number of people who did not necessarily speak English as their primarily language of expression. While these "Konyos" were rather comfortable speaking English among themselves, other people were not so comfortable with their own English ability and thus spoke Tagalog most of the time, speaking English only when required to do so by their teachers or superiors. The Konyos, mostly being Creoles (of largely unmixed European extraction) or Mestizos (mixed-race) often stood out among the crowd due to their European features and lighter complexion, and sometimes faced potential alienation from the mainstream Tagalog-speaking majority in Manila. Moreover, the Philippine capital in the 1960's was characterized by a rise in expressions of nationalism such as the "Filipino First Policy" and many other movements that paralleled the growth of nationalism among former colonies of Western powers.

The Konyos of Metropolitan Manila, therefore, seem to have felt the need to proclaim their oneness and solidarity with the Tagalog-speaking majority in Manila in the light of this nationalistic resurgence. If not that, they at least needed to appear “acceptable” and non-foreign to the mainstream. In part because many of these Creole Filipinos (sometimes of unmiscegenated Basque descent) appear completely Caucasian and could therefore be mistaken for foreigners.

One variant of Konyo English is known as "Colegiala English" (pronounced "ko-leh-hya-la") which refers to students of very expensive all-girl Convent Schools (formerly known during the Spanish-dominated era as "Colegios") which were run by Roman Catholic nuns. The bulk of the students in these schools were, of course, Creoles and Mestizas. It is primarily Colegiala English which contributed to the "make + tagalog verb" sentence construction found in Konyo English. This variant largely developed in parallel to the Konyo English spoken by their male counterparts who were sent to Manila's all-boy schools for the rich.

In other words, Konyo English (as an Englog) has been analyzed to have primarily arisen as an attempt by English-dominant people of physically foreign-looking physiognomy to assert their Filipino identity through the heavy use of Tagalog words.

For the most part, Konyo English is not used (and is in fact abhorred and avoided) by English-dominant members of the non-Creole Filipino professional-classes (families of doctors / lawyers / engineers / office workers / writers / educators - often referred to as the "Educated Middle Class"), and instead, the most highly English-influenced among them strive to speak straight English with an American accent. For the most part, members of this class are often described as "highly diluted" or "highly miscegenated" Chinese-mestizos (some would probably have distant or not-so-distant links to a European ancestor) who may bear some foreign-looking facial features, but are not too foreign-looking to be mistaken for white foreigners. Among this caste, the need to assimilate with the Tagalog-dominant majority of Manila is low. As they know themselves to be unmistakably considered Filipino by other Filipinos due to their physical appearance, they feel they have no need to prove their Filipino identity by overusing Tagalog words while speaking English.

However, due to the general prestige and respect that the Creole caste still commands, many other Manila-based Filipinos of non-Creole backgrounds have slowly begun to copy Konyo English, since it strangely connotes "class." Usually these people are classmates or close friends of the originally Creole core group of Konyo English.

Konyo English is an English-based pidgin which uses an underlying English structure and draws from a Tagalog lexicon. Filipino English, which is primarily American English spoken with a slight Filipino accent and uses English words that have been indigenized for local Filipino use, is a largely middle-class phenomenon and is used by the educated class. Taglish, on the other hand, is the pidgin that is essentially Tagalog but merely uses English nouns and verbs, yet retains Tagalog grammatical function words for the most part, and is used by the broadest range of people in the Philippines.

thomasian

August 17th, 2005, 01:39 AM

Thanks for that, it's really informative. Kudos to the person who wrote it.

Kiel

August 17th, 2005, 07:23 AM

Good luck. Not to discourage you, but it's tough, especially starting it after 12.

Haha ;P Yeah... :P Thanks for the warning :D

Æsahættr

August 17th, 2005, 08:39 AM

languages I am fluent in: Cebuano and English

the languages I understand but cannot speak: Tagalog and Spanish

the languages I know bits of: Chinese (Mandarin), Chinese (Taiwanese), Japanese

language I plan to take in my educational career: French (this year), Japanese

cariocas27

August 17th, 2005, 09:19 AM

tienes razon..
eres filipino, espanol o brasileno??

Yo nací en Canada pero mis padres son inmigrantes Filipinos

I consider myself a fake brazilian (that is until I get citizenship) lol ... long story

Dvorak

August 17th, 2005, 10:13 AM

Tan por sangre usted es Filipino?

Yo nací en Canada pero mis padres son inmigrantes Filipinos

I consider myself a fake brazilian (that is until I get citizenship) lol ... long story

cariocas27

August 17th, 2005, 05:02 PM

Tan por sangre usted es Filipino?

Oui :)

Actually because of the cultural vacuum that Canada experiences, many 1st and even 2nd generation immigrants feel a stronger connection (albeit a very unrealistic one) to the countries their ancestors of recent memory immigrated from.

Alot of Canadians born of Filipino parents (unless they're mixed) are brought up in Pinoy culture at home (no different than in any other country) BUT really have no solid Canadian identity to integrate themselves to so end up feeling like Filipinos living in Canada instead of Canadians of Filipino descent to a greater degree (I hope that made sense).

eievar

August 19th, 2005, 01:33 AM

Roberto, te lo puedo enseñar... ya sabes 40% de palabras tagalas porque provenien del español. Pero weno... vamos a empezar con la frase mas usada en Tagalo, Kumusta? o Kumusta ka? = Como estas?
Mabuti = Muy bien. Sigue = Hasta luego/Vale.

no tenia ni idea de que tantas palabras del tagalog provienen del español...

i had no idea that so many words of tagalog come from spanish... :eek2:

ReDeYEs

August 19th, 2005, 02:32 AM

1.Cebuano<fluent
2.Tagalog < I understand, but cannot speak Tagalog fluently
3.English< fluent
4.Spanish<fluent

I use Cebuano to learn Spanish :cool:

Culiat

August 19th, 2005, 03:05 AM

Roberto, te lo puedo enseñar... ya sabes 40% de palabras tagalas porque provenien del español. Pero weno... vamos a empezar con la frase mas usada en Tagalo, Kumusta? o Kumusta ka? = Como estas?
Mabuti = Muy bien. Sigue = Hasta luego/Vale.

Isn't it the word Mabuti is from the root word Buti w/c means good? I don't see the resemblance between Buti and Bien as what I can see between Kumusta and Como Esta. :)

huistenmark

August 19th, 2005, 04:17 AM

Yo nací en Canada pero mis padres son inmigrantes Filipinos

I consider myself a fake brazilian (that is until I get citizenship) lol ... long story

hahaha... funny coz i consider myself that too!!!

Prior to World War II, Spanish was predominantly spoken in the homes of the upper class Creole families (usually of Basque descent)

i find that ironic since among Spanish minorities, the barques are the most outspoken about wanting to have a separate basque state.

manileño

August 19th, 2005, 05:35 AM

no tenia ni idea de que tantas palabras del tagalog provienen del español...

i had no idea that so many words of tagalog come from spanish... :eek2:

es que somos un ex-colonia de españa te acuerdas?

manileño

August 19th, 2005, 05:36 AM

Isn't it the word Mabuti is from the root word Buti w/c means good? I don't see the resemblance between Buti and Bien as what I can see between Kumusta and Como Esta. :)

Yea.. and im not saying Mabuti comes from Spanish. jejeje.. i was just teaching him the basic frases..

manileño

August 19th, 2005, 05:38 AM

Yo nací en Canada pero mis padres son inmigrantes Filipinos

I consider myself a fake brazilian (that is until I get citizenship) lol ... long story

and why brazilian? voce fala portugues?

cariocas27

August 19th, 2005, 09:25 AM

and why brazilian? voce fala portugues?

B/c I've fallen in love w/ Brazil and want to move there in the future...

e clar o que eu falo português... é melhor que o meu castelhano...!!!! :runaway:

Seriously... I think Brazil is one of those countries the Filipino community sort of overshot when looking for places to immigrate in the new world... meh missed opportunity I guess...

cariocas27

August 19th, 2005, 09:25 AM

cariocas27

August 19th, 2005, 09:29 AM

Prior to World War II, Spanish was predominantly spoken in the homes of the upper class Creole families (usually of Basque descent)

i find that ironic since among Spanish minorities, the barques are the most outspoken about wanting to have a separate basque state.

Well Spain has always had problems with unity ever since the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabel... I won't get into this as it is too complicated of an issue to discuss w/o any questions being asked. I know a few things in regards to Spanish (or shall I say Catalan) history so go ahead and ask if you have any questions

cariocas27

August 19th, 2005, 09:30 AM

hahaha... funny coz i consider myself that too!!!

You consider yourself a fake-brazilian too? Are you pinoy? if you are that would be sooooo cool... hahahaha

eievar

August 19th, 2005, 08:59 PM

es que somos un ex-colonia de españa te acuerdas?

si, claro que lo recuerdo xD. pero segun tengo entendido el español siempre fue hablado por poca gente en las Filipinas, basicamente españoles peninsulares y gente de clase alta, pero que el "pueblo llano" siempre siguio hablando el idioma nativo. pero si dices que un 40% de las pabras en tagalog provienen del castellano, pienso en dos posibilidades: o el español debio tener una grandisima influencia durante los años en q Filipinas fue colonia; o realmente el tagalog se fue perdiendo poco a poco y ahora en los ultimos años se ha "reconstruido", en gran parte con vocabulario español. ¿puede ser algo asi? (con el euskera, el idioma vasco, ha pasado algo parecido, durante mucho tiempo fue perdiendose, hasta llegar un momento en q solo se hablaba en algunos pueblos alejados de las grandes ciudades vascas, y por eso ahora es practicamente un idioma "inventado" de nuevo, y con buena parte de su vocabulario basado en el español, aunque no tanto como un 40%!)

eievar

August 19th, 2005, 09:01 PM

You consider yourself a fake-brazilian too? Are you pinoy? if you are that would be sooooo cool... hahahaha

eres un caso extrañisimo cariocas27... padres filipinos, nacido en canada y te consideras tú mismo brasileño xDD

cariocas27

August 20th, 2005, 12:39 AM

eres un caso extrañisimo cariocas27... padres filipinos, nacido en canada y te consideras tú mismo brasileño xDD

Si tú hubieras sido pegado por la fiebre brasileña , entenderías lo que me siento hacia ese país...

Pero bueno he decidido a imigrar para allá hace mucho tiempo pues ahora es solo una cuestión de tiempo y plata ...

Anyways I'm no so "extrañisimo" as you would think as there are MANY people who feel the same way towards Brazil as I do.

cariocas27

August 20th, 2005, 12:48 AM

pienso en dos posibilidades: o el español debio tener una grandisima influencia durante los años en q Filipinas fue colonia; o realmente el tagalog se fue perdiendo poco a poco y ahora en los ultimos años se ha "reconstruido", en gran parte con vocabulario español. ¿puede ser algo asi?

Bueno, voy a tratar de responderle a usted en inglés para que todo el mundo pueda entendernos eh?

As to my understanding, or guess more like it, Castilian based vocabulary in the Tagalog language is limited for the most part to day-to-day objects that were introduced by the Spaniards and I guess those few cultural expressions that Filipinos had no words for before...

Alot of the grammar and sentence structure is very much Tagalog in nature. The same thing happened with Japanese when the Portuguese, Dutch, and Americans came to the islands hence there is a huge number of Japanese words which are just transcribed phonetically into katakana but are still very much foreign in origin.

So I would guess that your first explanation is more correct and that castilian had a huge impact on the vocabulary development of the present-day Tagalog language.

The second one doesn't apply as Tagalog has always been the lingua franca amongst everybody in the Manila region (which to be honest is where the power lay during colonization). This is similar to català and its use in Catalunya.

eievar

August 20th, 2005, 12:48 PM

ok, thank you for the answer cariocas, i though too that the first supposition was the correct one

huistenmark

August 20th, 2005, 03:37 PM

The same thing happened with Japanese when the Portuguese, Dutch, and Americans came to the islands hence there is a huge number of Japanese words which are just transcribed phonetically into katakana but are still very much foreign in origin.

I don't think the situation is/was the same. Japan was never colonised my any country so the penetration of the language in the populace is quite minimal (although you don't really need a country to be colonised to use a language, look at english!) Japanese uses Katakana to write foreign words, wether it is Chinese, Portuguese or American. Like everybody else, they use foreign words when a word to explain/call something doesn't exist in their language(ie Capoera..)

cariocas27

August 20th, 2005, 05:47 PM

I don't think the situation is/was the same. Japan was never colonised my any country so the penetration of the language in the populace is quite minimal (although you don't really need a country to be colonised to use a language, look at english!) Japanese uses Katakana to write foreign words, wether it is Chinese, Portuguese or American. Like everybody else, they use foreign words when a word to explain/call something doesn't exist in their language(ie Capoera..)

Yes and no

Japan was never officially colonized by a foreign power but does that really matter? The Portuguese introduced various things to the Japanese after St. Francis Xavier arrived on the islands only to be expelled again by Hideyoshi Toyotomi (I think it was him... don't quote me on this); tempura, casutera, pan... these are foreign products that have wholly been culturally adapted by the Japanese. Isn't that the same thing that happened with the Filipinos in regards to things like mamon, paella and kaldereta?

The Dutch and Germans gave the Japanese words in relation to the studies of the sciences. The Americans, well, what can I say they're Americans...

It doesn't really matter whether or not a country is colonized; the Japanese, just like the Filipinos adapted many foreign words into their lexicon and made them a part of their language (or shall we say the Kanto dialect a.k.a. standard Japanese). This is inevitable when foreign cultures interact with one another (peacefully or at war).

RobertoBKK

August 20th, 2005, 07:18 PM

Es mexicano de Tailandia... Saludos a todos Madrileños! Nos veremos en
<M> Islas Filipinas, no?

Hola, si, soy mexicano!

huistenmark

August 21st, 2005, 02:11 PM

Yes and no

Japan was never officially colonized by a foreign power but does that really matter? The Portuguese introduced various things to the Japanese after St. Francis Xavier arrived on the islands only to be expelled again by Hideyoshi Toyotomi (I think it was him... don't quote me on this); tempura, casutera, pan... these are foreign products that have wholly been culturally adapted by the Japanese. Isn't that the same thing that happened with the Filipinos in regards to things like mamon, paella and kaldereta?

The Dutch and Germans gave the Japanese words in relation to the studies of the sciences. The Americans, well, what can I say they're Americans...

It doesn't really matter whether or not a country is colonized; the Japanese, just like the Filipinos adapted many foreign words into their lexicon and made them a part of their language (or shall we say the Kanto dialect a.k.a. standard Japanese). This is inevitable when foreign cultures interact with one another (peacefully or at war).

I agree, as i stated in my post: 'although you don't really need a country to be colonised to use a language, look at english'.

Andrex

August 21st, 2005, 05:42 PM

Es mexicano de Tailandia... Saludos a todos Madrileños! Nos veremos en
<M> Islas Filipinas, no?

jajaja ¿sabes que en Madrid hay una estación de Metro que se llama "Islas Filipinas"? ¿conoces MAD o es que has estado viendo la web del metro de madrid? ;) http://www.metromadrid.es Tienes la información disponible también en inglés.

Por cierto ...espero ir al año que viene a Filipinas ¿me invitas a conocer Manila o Cabu?

Andrex

August 21st, 2005, 06:14 PM

It doesn't really matter whether or not a country is colonized; the Japanese, just like the Filipinos adapted many foreign words into their lexicon and made them a part of their language (or shall we say the Kanto dialect a.k.a. standard Japanese). This is inevitable when foreign cultures interact with one another (peacefully or at war).

Bueno, yo creo que es inevitable hasta cierto punto: si una de esas dos culturas ha desarrollado un mayor grado cultural y/o científico que la otra. En el Japón del siglo XVI posiblemente adoptaron esas palabras científicas o técnicas porque ellos no las tuvieron. Por contra, yo si creo que importa si un país ha sido colonizado o no.

Well, I think it is inevitable up to a point: it depends how high its the cultural/sciencific development rank which a culture has over the another one. Why there are not japaneses words in English o Dutch? For instance, do you know what happen with the Islandic language??

cariocas27

August 21st, 2005, 07:46 PM

Bueno, yo creo que es inevitable hasta cierto punto: si una de esas dos culturas ha desarrollado un mayor grado cultural y/o científico que la otra. En el Japón del siglo XVI posiblemente adoptaron esas palabras científicas o técnicas porque ellos no las tuvieron. Por contra, yo si creo que importa si un país ha sido colonizado o no.

Sí pero Japón no fue colonizado ... pero ellos adoptaron tantas palabras extranjeras en su vocabulario (y no estoy hablando de las palabras que son escritas fonéticamente en katakana).

Actually, there are Japanese words in English...

Sou-jiro

September 16th, 2005, 11:25 AM

English -Tagalog but Enrolling to do Japanese course soon

Dvorak

September 16th, 2005, 12:01 PM

hehehe getting ready to court the japanese girl ey!

English -Tagalog but Enrolling to do Japanese course soon

Sou-jiro

September 16th, 2005, 12:07 PM

hehehe getting ready to court the japanese girl ey!

meron na nga eh sa work hehehe she on an exchange program though from tokyo...and a korean....but overloaded nako....but nah im behave...friends lang....addik me sa culture nila...even my room has futon and tatami's on the floor

Mango

September 16th, 2005, 12:26 PM

Sou-jiro

September 16th, 2005, 12:38 PM

@someguy, pronunciation-wise, japanese would be easy for a tagalog speaker.
grammar naman may system kaya madali rin.
The difficult part maybe in the Kanji or chinese characters as you have to learn how to write, meaning and the Japanese and Chinese reading. blah blah blah
If you're fond of anime, more or less you have an idea on how it is spoken colloqially.
...i really wanna learn...how are you finding it there....??lifestyle wise....would you say its a friendly athmosphere for a visitor?...your speak it fluenty?

Mango

September 16th, 2005, 01:03 PM

For me, perfect. Living standard, safety, people, food, transpo, climate, everything!
Some of my single Pinoy friends who have graduated ahead of me found jobs.
But for those who have families opted to go to the US (3couples in a year!) as its easier to get citizenshop in the US plus they are close to their relatives (also based in US). I've never been to any country except Japan, but accdg to my friends who travelled Europe, US and Asia, they say Japan is the best esp. transpo and service ie. stores, public halls, etc.

Modesty aside, yes I can speak it well but not yet the native level. I attend lectures all in Japanese. Have to write my paper in Japanese. I only speak Japanese here he he even with my friends...

Japanese are very formal people but they are always willing to help. I have a lot of friends that sometimes ikaw na susuko sa invitations... and they are very thoughtful..

Dvorak

September 16th, 2005, 01:13 PM

isn't it expensive to live there in Japan?

For me, perfect. Living standard, safety, people, food, transpo, climate, everything!
Some of my single Pinoy friends who have graduated ahead of me found jobs.
But for those who have families opted to go to the US (3couples in a year!) as its easier to get citizenshop in the US plus they are close to their relatives (also based in US). I've never been to any country except Japan, but accdg to my friends who travelled Europe, US and Asia, they say Japan is the best esp. transpo and service ie. stores, public halls, etc.

Modesty aside, yes I can speak it well but not yet the native level. I attend lectures all in Japanese. Have to write my paper in Japanese. I only speak Japanese here he he even with my friends...

Japanese are very formal people but they are always willing to help. I have a lot of friends that sometimes ikaw na susuko sa invitations... and they are very thoughtful..

Mango

September 16th, 2005, 01:25 PM

Its expensive, yes if you convert to peso. but they receive big salaries so ok lang. Purchasing power is waaay better here of course. Say per hour part time job(service crew) can buy one or two decent meal na! Middle class majority. University president commutes, too.

Sou-jiro

September 16th, 2005, 01:34 PM

i'd like to work in Japan someday...

Lili

September 16th, 2005, 04:41 PM

Nice account Mango. :okay: I wish you can post pictures in the picture thread of you and your friends there.

I haven't heard or read anything from Rico of Japan. I wonder how he is? Must be so preoccupied with work, tennis and his new car.

Mango

September 18th, 2005, 06:55 AM

^^^Am thinking of posting one in the picture thread. Pag nawala na apprehension ha ha!

Lili

September 18th, 2005, 06:58 AM

I had to overcome that myself. You know. :)

bagel

September 18th, 2005, 08:18 AM

Sige post lang... Puwede naman tangalin eh... tapos pag nag-makeover ka, you can keep it there forever.

dhoyax

September 22nd, 2005, 08:05 AM

english, tagalog, cebuano, cantonese

normandb

September 23rd, 2005, 04:09 AM

Pwede ba turuan nyo kami ng language na sward speak..

Mga Chuva at chukchakchenes ever...:D

tyronne

September 23rd, 2005, 04:43 AM

^^haha! i always find it funny whenever people talk like that. my bestfriends talk like that sometimes and it makes me laugh. i dont know...

Lili

September 23rd, 2005, 05:19 AM

tienes, tienes...

tigidig14

September 23rd, 2005, 05:42 AM

ano ba tawag sa language ng ngongo,
kasi sabi nila ang twag dun ay ngonge, i think im right, am I

kiretoce

September 23rd, 2005, 03:39 PM

^^ I didn't know that there was even a language named for the "ngo-ngo" people! :lol:

tigidig14

September 23rd, 2005, 03:40 PM

^language ay ngo-nge, tao ay ngo-ngo

KulasKusgan

September 23rd, 2005, 03:46 PM

baby talk. habebe... dunoke...

Sou-jiro

September 24th, 2005, 01:57 PM

Ei...Mango how do you say "You Are Weak"...la lang....hehe

Sinjin P.

September 24th, 2005, 01:59 PM

I am fluent in speaking English, Tagalog and Cebuano.

I am interested in learning Spanish and French. :)

snoopy

September 24th, 2005, 02:12 PM

cantonese, english, and chinglish

Mango

September 24th, 2005, 05:16 PM

Ei...Mango how do you say "You Are Weak"...la lang....hehe

Anata wa yowai desu.

however it is more polite to use the person's name instead of anata.

ex: Rodney-san wa yowai desu.

Lili

September 24th, 2005, 05:34 PM

^ Sino naman kaya ang gusto sabihan n'yan ni Rodney? And how can you be polite to someone you want to say is weak?

paulkrps

October 25th, 2005, 09:49 PM

baka ganito:

rodney to his boss: you are weak, you will give me 300% raise next payday (emote with konting hipnotismo).

Ratoncito

December 22nd, 2005, 05:22 AM

As I go throuh these forums, I enjoy very much viewing this Spanish Heritage that Filipinas has, lovely by the way; as far as I know, Filipinas is the only asiatic country that has this Spanish Heritage with these stone strongholds like Intramuros.

In my opinion, after Second World War, there was a Cultural Break Up, adopting English as the Oficial Language and apparently, this has not brought any progress to Filipinas but loss of Cultural Identity.

Dictator Ferdinand Marcos, dropped Spanish as official in Filipinas, and now that time has gone by and with internet we can know and see other parts of our country, like Intramuros or Zamboanga,etc... and see the Spanish Roots that Filipinos have, we should reconsider recovering the language in which the first Constitution of Filipinas was written.

Gloria Macapagal Arroyo speaks perfect Spanish, why not the rest of the population???? Have Filipinos been marginalized from learning and using one of their mother languages, Spanish, in which more than 300 years of their History is written and detailed??? Mexicans, Argentinian, Venezuelan, and Spanish people can read Filipinas History....... but not Filipinos....damm!! What a pity!!!!

Please, take a look at http://es.geocities.com/iberofilipino/ and http://filipinokastila.tripod.com/other.html

This is my point of view.

I will be delighted in listening to other opinions and points of view.

Un abrazo a todos y Feliz Navidad 2005-2006

Suerte.

pau_p1

December 22nd, 2005, 05:37 AM

all I can say is.. I would love to add Spanish in my vocabulary... well.. about 20% (my guess) of the Filipino language is made up of Spanish words from household items (cuchara, cucina, la mesa, baño) to numbers (dos, tres, quatro)

Culiat

December 22nd, 2005, 05:45 AM

For me if we have established English as an official language then why not reestablish spanish as an official one. It is really a pity to loose such a cultural identity.

marites4

December 22nd, 2005, 05:55 AM

Louman

December 22nd, 2005, 06:01 AM

Hell. NO. Not our language or our culture no matter how much it's been integrated into our own.

manileño

December 22nd, 2005, 06:19 AM

Not as an official language, but back to being a required language to learn in schools (secondary and tertiary).

DonQui

December 22nd, 2005, 06:22 AM

:yes:

It is less foreign than English is, at least historically. 50 years of English speaking ties versus 300 years of Spanish speaking ones.

;)

If anything, it was the Spaniards that fathered your nation.

marites4

December 22nd, 2005, 06:28 AM

DonQui

December 22nd, 2005, 06:30 AM

sista

December 22nd, 2005, 06:30 AM

I'm up with the idea of Spanish being a requirement in secondary schools. The more languages learned, the better :)

Manila-X

December 22nd, 2005, 06:31 AM

I prefer having it as an optional language to be taught in schools but not as a co-official language!

LordCarnal

December 22nd, 2005, 06:48 AM

Not as an official language, but back to being a required language to learn in schools (secondary and tertiary).

I agree... not as an official language... I guess we should also start to learn Chinese now that some have predicted it to be the language of business in the future..

But as of now, we should strengthen more our English.

Manila-X

December 22nd, 2005, 06:56 AM

I agree... not as an official language... I guess we should also start to learn Chinese now that some have predicted it to be the language of business in the future..

But as of now, we should strengthen more our English.

True because the quality of English in The Philippines is deteriorating! Though Chinese will be an important language in the future. I still think that English will still be more important and it's according to what Chinese dialect you want to learn whether it's Cantonese, Mandarin or Szechuan

marites4

December 22nd, 2005, 07:05 AM

someone got a healthy dosage of brainwashing from us Americans.

;)

The Spanish have not been in the Philippines since 1898, and the Americans for over 50 years. Since then, China, Korea, and other Asian nations have roared with rapid growth.

If the Philippines have not, it is the fault of Filipinos, not Americans, and especially not Spaniards.
That doesn't change the fact of what they did when they were in the PHilippines. It's not brainwashing. You can talk to my lola if you want.

slerz

December 22nd, 2005, 07:08 AM

no!we have our own unique language...

Animo

December 22nd, 2005, 07:16 AM

Hell. NO. Not our language or our culture no matter how much it's been integrated into our own.

That was a bit of a strong NO. Well, people lets us remove the mentality about the evilness of the colonial age and try to establish something positive. It would be really great to learn other languages and also benefit from them.

Learning spanish is really a BIG advantage to the Filipinos, because we would be able to read our 300 years of history. It has been stated that around 13 million Spanish documents in the Philippine archives are needed to be translated in order for all to understand. The Courts of law still recognize documents written in Spanish.

I am sure this would not happen drastically, but it would be nice that it would be an optional requirement for the Philippine schools. Just as its a requirement in the US schools for the students to learn a foreign language. And maybe after a few years, the country would be able to adopt it as a co-official language.

However, as of 2005, there is a growing interest of learning Spanish due to demand in call center industries. Their is still hope, as Hispanics in America are gaining importance the Philippines will also follow. I listen to an online radio (a major station) that is broadcasted in the Philippines and around the world. And they play reggaeton and the DJ also speaks a few Spanish words like greetings so the people who listens have some influence. :nocrook:

Peace to all and Happy Holidays!
:)

tigidig14

December 22nd, 2005, 07:17 AM

i dont think so, probably it should be the second language here in state but not in the philippines. the language has become very usefuless as the time passes by. we are very proud that we inherited the root of spanish, and there's nothing that the country should be denied of its background but were so far from a place where hispanic country exists. were surrounded with chinese, japanese, taiwanese and korean which, i think, is more suitable language after the english in the country.

pau_p1

December 22nd, 2005, 07:27 AM

yeah.. I'd say it should be a mandatory course in the tertiary level just as what was done before... Spanish isn't used in business more than English or Chinese... but learning about the Spanish language is nice for trekking back in the past...

I agree too with DonQui that we cannot blame the Americans or the Spanish of the current fate of our nation.. because we write our own history... they may have given us negative influences but it's our choice of which to observe...

nonetheless... each Filipino learning Spanish is a great thing.. since we have very old documents written in Spanish...

pau_p1

December 22nd, 2005, 07:32 AM

yeah.. we should forget the atrocities of Spain in the past... or rather keep them in mind as only part of history... Spain has already gave its public apology to the Philippines just as Japan did for their atrocities to their invaded nations..

maybe it would be nice that a student be allowed to choose a language he wants to study.. English, Spanish, Chinese, or Japanese in their tertiary schooling..

Askal82

December 22nd, 2005, 07:35 AM

I agree making Spanish as a co-official language once again. There is nothing wrong with it. Its just a language. Spanish and English are interrelated languages. You'll not only open yourself to more than 300 million people who speaks it, it also enhances your vocabulary skills in English! Ill demonstrate:

The word masticate in English is masticar in spanish meaning to 'chew'.
Heck, if you don't know a little bit of Spanish, you might end up using the English dictionary as a reference for that word.

There is so much more particularly with cognates: dormant, convene, convolve, aviation, avian, conscript, prescribe. Ill break it down for you.

dormant = dormir (sleep), so a dormant volcano is 'sleeping'
Convene = con (together) vene (from venir = to come) convene means to come together, another hint: convention
convolve = con (together) volve (from volver = to turn) so to convolve means to turn/roll together
aviation, avian = root 'avi' means bird as 'aves' en español
conscript = con(together) script( escribir = to write) you hear this term in the military or army so it means 'to get enlisted or to draft in the military'.
prescribe = pre (before) scribe (escribir = to write) so literally it means something is 'written before' you take the medicine.

tigidig14

December 22nd, 2005, 07:44 AM

Animo

December 22nd, 2005, 07:47 AM

conscript = con(together) script( escribir = to write) you hear this term in the military or army so it means 'to get enlisted or to draft in the military'.

ive never heard of this when i was in the army

It is synonymical to being drafted.

---

Esmeralda created a thread for the Philippines in the Chile forum and she said really nice things about the Filipinos and the country.

Check here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=297657

Askal82

December 22nd, 2005, 07:54 AM

conscript = con(together) script( escribir = to write) you hear this term in the military or army so it means 'to get enlisted or to draft in the military'.

ive never heard of this when i was in the army

thats another term for 'draft'

According to the Webster.com

Conscription : compulsory enrollment of persons especially for military service

Askal82

December 22nd, 2005, 07:58 AM

Well, if you don't want Spanish as co-offiicial, then it is still better if we bring back Spanish requirement in the curriculum.

marites4

December 22nd, 2005, 07:59 AM

tigidig14

December 22nd, 2005, 08:02 AM

thats another term for 'draft'

According to the Webster.com

Conscription : compulsory enrollment of persons especially for military service

ye probably in the ww2, i had actually worked in the batallion for six month as a penalty :lol:, but military usually just use the old term: reenlistment, big bonus, or another number

Animo

December 22nd, 2005, 08:04 AM

I found this from wikipedia.

Sorta suits the discussion here.

The Clamor for Spanish

The propagation and/or imposition of Spanish as an official language is still in heavy dispute. On one side, much of the history and culture is embedded in the language. There are an estimated 13 million manuscripts from the 16th century to 1898 which include government documents, economics, trade disputes, legal matters, patriotic material, religious material, registrations etc. Up to the 60s, birth certificates were in both English and Spanish. There is still a very strong need to translate a great number of historical documents.

On the other side, Spanish is accused by some as representing colonization and has less relevance than English for practical usage or Filipino in terms of nationalism. Certain advocates maintain that Spanish was used by the first Filipino patriots. For example, Spanish was used to write the country's first constitution, Constitución Política de Malolos, Noli Me Tangere, the original national anthem, nationalistic propaganda material,etc and thus should be considered a national language. Philippine nationalism was first propagated in the Spanish language.

Manila is home to the main East Asian branch of the Instituto Cervantes, the Spanish government's official overseas institute for the promotion of Spanish language and Latin American culture. The Spanish language enjoys popularity as a language of choice for learning a foreign language among new generations of young Filipinos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_in_the_Philippines

PS.

I also read somewhere in inq.net (?) that they are going to open another Instituto Cervantes in Cebu.

tigidig14

December 22nd, 2005, 08:04 AM

actually all those language similarities come fr the latin language not Spanish . It's good to learn many languages but in our part of the world there is not much use for it as opposed to if you live in the AMericas. To make it an official language is backtracking.
true marites, i forgot about that, those werent spanish askal those are latin root word :lol:, u try to fool us again

Askal82

December 22nd, 2005, 08:14 AM

Well, they have them in Spanish as well because its derived from Latin. Well, its even best to know Latin than Spanish, its just that its more difficult to learn. Spanish, or other Romance languages allow students to learn the relationships of such words much quicker than learning Latin itself. The reason why many English words have Spanish counterparts is because both are heavily influenced by Latin.

Animo

December 22nd, 2005, 08:16 AM

^^ That reminds me. Along time ago I wished to learn Latin and I might not be able to learn it in the near future. :hammer:

Askal82

December 22nd, 2005, 08:23 AM

For me, learning one of the Romance languages is enough for me. I also prefer French since a lot of French terms are incorporated in English vocabulary however, I just hate the way their words are spelled.

manileño

December 22nd, 2005, 08:29 AM

Learning spanish is really a BIG advantage to the Filipinos, because we would be able to read our 300 years of history. It has been stated that around 13 million Spanish documents in the Philippine archives are needed to be translated in order for all to understand. The Courts of law still recognize documents written in Spanish.

I am sure this would not happen drastically, but it would be nice that it would be an optional requirement for the Philippine schools. Just as its a requirement in the US schools for the students to learn a foreign language. And maybe after a few years, the country would be able to adopt it as a co-official language.

However, as of 2005, there is a growing interest of learning Spanish due to demand in call center industries. Their is still hope, as Hispanics in America are gaining importance the Philippines will also follow.

yeah.. I'd say it should be a mandatory course in the tertiary level just as what was done before... Spanish isn't used in business more than English or Chinese... but learning about the Spanish language is nice for trekking back in the past...

I agree too with DonQui that we cannot blame the Americans or the Spanish of the current fate of our nation.. because we write our own history... they may have given us negative influences but it's our choice of which to observe...

nonetheless... each Filipino learning Spanish is a great thing.. since we have very old documents written in Spanish...

very well said, Animo and pau_p1

manileño

December 22nd, 2005, 08:38 AM

Spanish should be back in Philippine schools. Just as Tagalog may not be a very significant language for the Visayas, Mindanao and Northern Luzon. It doesn't matter if it's important, useful or not. Education is education. I mean, do we have a use for trigonometry after HS? College? hehe. Idon't. And like what they said, it is part of who we are as Filipinos. We should all at least learn a few. We don't want the Americans to be the ones who'd have to remind us what "ayuntamiento" and "despedida de soltera" mean, right? Cos they are learning it too :)

marites4

December 22nd, 2005, 08:50 AM

manileño

December 22nd, 2005, 08:55 AM

_zner_

December 22nd, 2005, 09:05 AM

it is too late!

marites4

December 22nd, 2005, 09:09 AM

^^ Americans murdered millions of Filipinos during the Filipino-American War. They bombed our Intramuros during the Liberation of World War II. But we still speak English. As a matter of fact, they did more atrocities in the 50 years they stayed here than the Spanish who was here for more than 300 years. :)

I agree, a required language elective subject in secondary and tertiary is good. :)
Well that 's Spains fault. The first thing the AMericans did when they landed is to build thousands of schools and send teachers to teach ENglish to Filipinos. thank god. The Spanish was too afraid to share their language.
Simple as that.

JAMAICUS

December 22nd, 2005, 09:13 AM

One history book tells that at least 1/3 or 1/4 of the Filipino population was murdered during the "FIL-AM WAR". Probably comparable to a NAZI atrocity. People ages over 9 were massacred. I believe there is an editorial cartoon saying "ages over 9 must be killed" which shows five children being executed via firing squad. And the sad part of this is that a majority of Americans back then favored this. LAND OF THE FREE - AMERICA?
Yet there is saying among veterans: The Spaniards gave us religion, the Americans gave us Education and the Japanese gave us HELL!

Askal82

December 22nd, 2005, 09:17 AM

Well, consider Puerto Rico and Philippines. Both colonies were taken by U.S. in 1898. Philippines is able to develop the use of English language, while Puerto Rico continuted to use Spanish up to this day. Why did the Puerto Ricans speak Spanish in conjunction with English despite more than 100 years of their Commonwealth status? Philippines truly attained its independence on July 4, 1946, only a year after the 2nd world war.

marites4

December 22nd, 2005, 09:21 AM

because puerto rico was a tiny uninhabited island, the pop. comprised mostly of spanish and african slaves whereas the filipinos already had their own malay culture and language even before the Spanish came.

Askal82

December 22nd, 2005, 09:25 AM

tigidig14

December 22nd, 2005, 09:27 AM

Jefferyi

December 22nd, 2005, 09:29 AM

I cant make up a decision on this one yet. Now continue your debate both sides and try to convince me. Heheh.

manileño

December 22nd, 2005, 09:32 AM

For everyone's info:

I. Philippine Education Under Spanish Rule (1863-1898)

A formal system of education had existed in the Philippines since early Spanish rule. Before the Education Act of 1863, however, schooling was limited to the elite, or principales, who sent their children to schools run by Catholic religious orders. Among these schools were beaterios - boarding schools for girls - and grammar schools for boys.

The Act of 1863 sought to establish one boys’ school and one girls’ school in every pueblo. Royal decrees prescribed free, compulsory education in Spanish, Christian doctrine, reading, writing, geography, arithmetic, practical agriculture and music. While Filipino authorities did not carry out the decrees to the letter, the progress of primary instruction was noteworthy. Enrollment in all Philippine schools approached 200,000 in 1890, and in 1892, there were 2,137 public primary schools in the archipelago.

In 1898, men from the ilustrado, or enlightened middle class launched a revolt against Spain. The Philippine Revolution was founded on two platforms: to indigenize the Catholic Church and overthrow the Spanish government in the islands. The Revolutionary Government drafted a plan for maintaining the public school system. One of its objectives was to separate the schools from Spanish control. They proposed a curriculum for primary instruction that omitted the Spanish emphasis on Christian doctrine and stressed attention to the physical development of the children. Philippine history was to be taught – using a text by a Filipino author. Aside from the three R’s, commercial education would likewise be taught (Suzuki, 1990).

Philippine independence from Spain, however, was short-lived. US President William McKinley commanded Admiral George Dewey to attack remaining Spanish garrisons in Manila in May, 1898. In light of the fact that their country was ceded by Spain in the Treaty of Paris earlier that year, Filipino revolutionaries would engage in guerilla warfare against the Americans, the last pockets of rebellion continuing until 1904 (May, 1980).

manileño

December 22nd, 2005, 09:34 AM

Philippine Education System during the First Philippine Republic
1898-1901

FOR HUNDREDS of years, November the 1st has been the feast of the dead in the Philippines. But at least once during our revolutionary heyday at the turn of the century--it was also the start of a new schoolyear and the opening of a state university. At least, so the decree of the Philippine Revolutionary Government of 19 October, 1898 intended.

In reality, ancestor worship took over as always and the Universidad Literaria (later and more accurately, Cientifica-Literaria was inaugurated not on Todos los Santos but ten days later on 10 November 1898. It was a glorious day because, as Dr. Cesar Adib Majul writes in the monograph which is the source of this article, "education had been a major aspiration of the reform movement and the Philippine revolution."

"We desire a system of public instruction," went the famous First Manifesto of the Junta after Aguinaldo returned from Hongkong, "less clerical in nature and in which greater attention is paid to the natural and positive sciences, in order to educate the female as well as the male, in the establishment and development of industry and the natural wealth of the country, of its seas and land, its minerals, its forests and its industries of all and every kind, an instruction which will be free in all its branches and obligatory in its lowest grades."

It was a truly enlightened statement. And if we are to judge from the faculty and the studentry of the Universidad and of its spriritual heirs, the Liceo de Manila, the Centro Escolar, the Instituto de Mujeres and other non-sectarian, private colleges which were of the same persuasion although they were established during the American regime, it was a good educational system for Filipinos.

The Universidad Cientifica-Literaria de Filipinas offered courses in Canon Civil and Administrative Law, Medicine, Surgery and Pharmacy. Some very old and familiar names appear on its faculty roster: Ariston Bautista (Clinical Medicine), Jose Luna (Clinical Surgery), Joaquin Gonzalez who was also the first university president (Legal Medicine, Toxicology and Public Sanitation), Antonio Luna (Chemical Analysis), ALejandro Albert (Inorganic Chemistry), Manuel Zamora (Pharmacognosy), and Leon Maria Guerrero who was also the second rector (Botany and Medicinal Plants).

The state university also ran a center for secondary and vocational education, the Instituto Burgos, which had been founded by Enrique Mendiola in Malolos, Bulacan. Secondary instruction, as specified in the decree, included Latin grammar, geography, world and Philippine history, arithmetic, algebra, geometry and trigonometry, French, English, Spanish literature, natural history and physiology, physics, chemistry, natural science and a first course in philosophy consisting of psychology, logic, ontology, cosmology, theodicy and ideology--a curriculum which makes our own high schools look like kindergarten.

Students aspiring for a vocational education (which meant commerce, agriculture surveying, etc.) had to tackle economics, political economy, industrial and statistical geography, accounting and bookkeeping, comparative mercantile legislation, customs administration, English, French, German and Italian, elementary topography, industrial mechanics, applied chemistry, agriculture and drawing.

This pre-American education system covered most of Luzon and functioned as a special division of the Department of Fomento. It received full support from the press, El Heraldo and La Independencia, which even suggested curricula for primary education and ran editorials on the education of Filipino women.

But it was all for naught. The government was almost continually on the run, tormented and finally overwhelmed by American forces. The Universidad moved from Malolos to Navotas and from there to Tarlac where senior students took their exams and the first commencement was held. While battles and skirmishes raged around them, local chiefs took time out to see that children "of both sexes" went to school regularly.

manileño

December 22nd, 2005, 09:36 AM

The American Regime and decline

The 1916 report by Henry Ford to President Woodrow Wilson says

...as I traveled through the [Philippine] Islands, using ordinary transportation and mixing with all classes of people under all conditions. Although based on the school statistics it is said that more Filipinos speak English than any other language, no one can be in agreement with this declaration if they base their assessment on what they hear...
Spanish is everywhere the language of business and social intercourse...In order for anyone to obtain prompt service from anyone, Spanish turns out to be more useful than English...And outside of Manila it is almost indispensable. The Americans who travel around all the islands customarily use it.
In 1924, the Philippine Academy of the Spanish Language was created. In 1936, Filipino films in Spanish began to be produced.

Decline of the Spanish language

Spanish has been in decline since then, because the Americans gradually pursued an aggressive campaign of de-Hispanization and promotion of English as a universal language which has resulted in the loss of Spanish as the major language of commerce and government.

After World War II and during the Marcos regime, many of the old Spanish-speaking families of Philippines migrated to Europe or the Americas, including the United States. By 1940 the number of Spanish-speakers in the Philippines was approximately 6 million, however, as a percentage of the total population the numbers had actually dropped. By the 1950 Census Spanish-speakers constitued 6% of the population, down from a 10% peak. During the 1960s and 1970s, Filipinos grew up with Spanish being their first and primary language, even before they learned to speak Tagalog or English.

Askal82

December 22nd, 2005, 09:40 AM

I stick with my belief that learning Spanish should be encouraged. I can perhaps forgo it as an official language for now. I mean, it is still part of the culture. If Spaniards themselves failed to teach their language to the filipinos, then now is the opportunity to learn them. Maybe those documents can reveal something more than what the current Filipino history books are teling us.

tigidig14

December 22nd, 2005, 09:43 AM

It seems like it has the same situation with Norman French who failed to make England a French speaking nation althought it was used as the language of business, justice and affairs. However, English language do contain many French words as to Filipino languages containing Spanish words.
no it doesnt, i took french for two years in h.s and its contains alot of latin and actually some arabic but not the other way around

pau_p1

December 22nd, 2005, 09:46 AM

Well that 's Spains fault. The first thing the AMericans did when they landed is to build thousands of schools and send teachers to teach ENglish to Filipinos. thank god. The Spanish was too afraid to share their language.
Simple as that.

well the reason they don't want to share their language is that they fear that the 'Indios' would understand their conversations and be of level to them..... during those era.. Europeans think of themselves as superior of all races...

and I agree that indeed the Americans did a lot of harm to the Philippines during their 40 year rule.. but their main difference from Spain is they also gave us democracy and commercialism... but they also gave us the colonial mentality after Coca-Cola and Hersheys came into our markets....

anyways.. I don't think that Spanish will become a second language since it is not widely used by Filipinos unlike English where even cigarette vendor on the streets could speak a few English.... they may speak Spanish but they don't know that it is Spanish since the Spanish words that they speak are accepted words like in terms of counting money....

Askal82

December 22nd, 2005, 09:53 AM

Tigz, Im comparing the parallel situation of Philippines with England. Both countries had culture and language(s) of their own even before their conquerors arrived. Spaniards as to Philippines and Norman French as to England. Both conquerors failed to convert the tongues of their subjects for many years despite using their languages in commerce, law, and the affairs of the state. These two countries emerged out speaking in their own languages rather than that of their conquerors.

Espma

December 22nd, 2005, 10:22 AM

Oh I definitely think Spanish should be encouraged!! I think it will give the Philippines a more competitive advantage against other SEA nations *just by being multi lingual* (imagine if the majority of the population can speak Filipino, English and Spanish, *Chinese would be very beneficial too...) It cannot be denied that Spain is a part of the country's history.

OHHH and by the way!! I heard that there's a dialect in Zamboanga composed mostly of Spanish..is this true?!!!!!

Askal82

December 22nd, 2005, 10:23 AM

bustero

December 22nd, 2005, 11:17 AM

I think if we can not speak english well enough to compete in the world economy , it would be folly to push a third language right now. While the idea is nice and can be pushed in higher level schools, I find it difficult to believe it would be effective in lower levels .

Ratoncito

December 22nd, 2005, 11:47 AM

If thats' the case then let's just stick to Malay before the Spanish came. Besides it's their damn fault , too greedy and insecure that the natives" those Indios" will find out about their secrets of looting as much gold and impregnating as many women as they can.

MARITE4: let me remind you that Spain was not that terrible, as the American WASP told Filipinos; of course Spain made mistakes, I am sure about that; to start with, it was Spain was conformed Filipinas, and who protected Filipinas from islamic Asian attacks; to continue, I´d say that is was Spain who built this enormous heritage that you have now in your islands, and it is very similar in some way to Seville (Sevilla); When I see these photos of intramuros with stoned walls, the trolleys pulled by horses, and the way streets are decorated, it reminds me a lot of some Spanish Cities like Cádiz, Sevilla, etc... and this is, of course, yours.

Of course there was Inquisition, and some slavery, I know......but don´t you know that in the USA there was slavery for Black people till neraly 20th century and racism till the end of it????? We married filipina women since we arrived in Filipinas, we mixed our race with yours, same as in South América, which I think is a very good thing.

And let me remind you MARITE that your National Hero, José Rizal, fought against Spain speaking in Spanish and that in the Filipino American war, around one million Filipinos were killed by the USA, and this is a lot more than what Spain killed in 350 years.

Really MARITE, apart from WASP American brainwashing, I do not think at all that we were that bad in Filipinas: we brought our modern arquitecture, trade, modern laws and our language, which in spoken by nearly 400 million people.

Oh MARITE, by the way, if you came to Madrid, you would see José Rizal´s Statue and quite an important avenue dedicated to Filipinas (Calle Islas Filipinas)......do you think you can find this in Washington????? I´m afraid not, no recognition at all.

Best regards and Merry Christmas
Ratoncito

Ratoncito

December 22nd, 2005, 12:01 PM

bagel

December 22nd, 2005, 12:36 PM

I do not think we should.

First, it's hard enough for current students to learn English. What more with another language.

Second, as an administrative problem, Spanish would entail billions of pesos worth of retraining teachers and retooling curricula.

Third, while English is a necessity in today's globalized world, and while a large population of the world speaks Spanish, only a miniscule percentage of the Philippines speaks a dialect of Spanish. While there is a Spanish mark on our culture, Pilipino is already so far removed from Spanish as it has evolved in the past 100 years (whether it was ever closely linked to Spanish is debateable). Adopting Spanish would be a continuation of a colonial thinking, despite the fact that it represents 300 years of our history. It would be a romanticization of subjugation under colonial times. Language evolves and we have evolved beyond Spanish. This is why I feel that Taglish is a legitimate evolution of both English and Tagalog. Spanish has no contemporary relevance for the masses other than as a historical curiosity and for specialized applications (like call centers). Though adopting English is colonial as well, it is a lingua franca today. Who knows, maybe in the future we should teach our students Mandarin?

Fourth, even when it was used in the Philippines, only a minority spoke it.

That said, it should be offered as an elective in secondary or even tertiary education.

kiretoce

December 22nd, 2005, 03:34 PM

My opinion is....

If countries like Switzerland (French, German, Italian, and Romansch) and Singapore (English, Malay, Mandarin, and Tamil) have multiple "Official Languages," I think that the Philippines can also re-adopt Spanish as an official language of the country (if they wanted to).

Or follow India which has English and Hindi as the official languages, but also have 15 or more "national languages."

Again, this is just my opinion. If you don't agree with it....go screw yourself! :lol:

Espma

December 22nd, 2005, 03:40 PM

^^haha...

I dont believe in that Taglish thing...if one can speak in full Tagalog then he/she should do it, likewise if the conversation is in English..I believe it shouldnt really be encouraged (Taglish) I mean its not really beneficial when u think about it....but I guess if one cant help it..then..nothing can be done about that lol

JustHorace

December 22nd, 2005, 05:39 PM

Spanish will be a language of unity since it occupies a major block of every major dialect on the Phlippines.

Yes, Spanish must be re-established as an official language!

Animo

December 22nd, 2005, 09:06 PM

SINCE TIME immemorial, I have heard it said (and I'm sure you have, too) that the Spaniards deliberately withheld education from the majority of Filipinos. When it is pointed out that there were "escuela pias" or even parish schools, it is argued that these did not teach the sciences or liberal arts but confined themselves to religion. As for the universities and colleges (Santo Tomas, Ateneo, Letran), they were all inferior (presumably to Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, etc).

In this regard, it will do us well to listen to Dr. Fernando Zialcita of the Ateneo de Manila University, who writes:

"It's important to note that public, compulsory education worldwide was a 19th century invention that followed the Industrial Revolution. The public schools in the Philippines -- as in Spain and France -- ran into problems because of finances. In Eugene Weber's monumental book on the French peasantry, he points out that schools were located by cesspools, that classrooms were but stables, teachers were often ex-soldiers who learned to read and write in the army. Still, there were successes in the Philippines. Thus, the Swedish economist Gunnar Myrdal says that the Philippines and Japan were outstanding in the 19th century for the attention paid by the governments to education. Read 'The Asian Drama.' Context is important in historical interpretation."

And in case you're wondering why there is this attachment to the English language among Filipinos, the Philippine History Group of Los Angeles represented by Roberto Mercado claims that: "The Americans won the hearts and minds of the Filipino subjects by sending, beginning in 1901, to the archipelago hundreds of American teachers (who were called the 'Thomasites,' as the first wave came on board the American transport ship, USS Thomas) and by establishing public elementary schools, high schools and state universities. The United States also started sending brilliant Filipino high-school and college graduates to study in American colleges and universities. The first 100 Filipino students (called 'pensionados') left for the United States in 1903. And the American colonizers forced even the Jesuits to replace the Spanish Jesuit priests with American Jesuits.

"Of course, the Spanish friars established universities such as the University of Santo Tomas in Manila (which predated Harvard University by 50 years) and even an older university in Cebu (the San Carlos University, that the Jesuits established and which is now run by the SVD missionaries). But education during the Spanish regime was actually limited to the few scions of the well-to-do Filipino (native) families and the Spaniards who intermarried with the Indios. Many of the premier schools such as the Ateneo schools of the Jesuits were located in Manila and later in some big cities in the Philippines. The Spanish colonial authorities did not force Filipino children to go to public schools, very few of which were organized in the first place. The best education could be had often in the seminaries that the friars established to turn out Filipino priests. But often, as the religious put it, many are called but few are chosen to become friars or members of the clergy."

Since we know little of education in other countries in Asia during the 19th century, it's difficult for us to compare the friars, who have been accused of knowing squat, to other teachers in the region. Nor do we have books on 19th century education in Indonesia or Malaysia, which were colonies as well. So that we can remove some of the cobwebs that befuddle us and learn that nothing is ever totally black or totally white, we really should encourage history students to research, write and publish on the subject.

Perhaps a century is too little time to look objectively at our former colonizers. Certainly, our attitude toward America veers from slavish imitation and adulation to utter dislike. One wonders if there's nothing in between. In this weather, either emotion should be considered unhealthy.

Another opinion that will raise hackles is the Los Angeles group's contention that "based on our studies of primary and secondary sources-Spain did not profit from colonizing the Philippines. For a period of more than 300 years, the Spanish treasury in Madrid subsidized the expenses of its bureaucracy in the cities of Manila, Cebu, Vigan, Nueva Caceres (Naga), Iloilo and other provincial capitals and, of course, the cost of fielding religious missionaries needed in Christianizing the archipelago.

"The Spanish colonizers never found anywhere in the Philippines the commercial quantities of the spices, gold and silver that they sought (and found in other colonies such as Mexico, Peru and other South/North American territories). So, ergo, there was no fortune in gold and silver that the Spaniards hoarded in Manila and which could have been captured by the Filipino revolutionary soldiers or even by the American invaders.

"Even the much-heralded profits from the Manila-Acapulco Galleon Trade did not really go to the Spanish treasury in Manila. The profits went to the pockets of some Spanish officials (both civil and religious) and the traders from the Hispanic, Chinese and Filipino communities of Manila and Acapulco. The galleons carried very few items manufactured in the Philippines. Most of the cargo carried on board came from China (silk, jewelry pieces in gold or silver setting, ceramic plates and decor, clothing, etc.). And the undisputed fact was that the galleons -- on their way back to Manila -- carried from Acapulco Mexican silver pesos, which represented payment of the goods brought to Mexico and which currency was the legal tender at that time in the Philippines."

http://www.inq7.net/opi/2003/may/13/opi_blharper-1.htm

Animo

December 22nd, 2005, 09:09 PM

^^ Just want to post this article that seems to summarize these negativity when it comes to these kinds of subjects. I hope the future generation including my own will be able to move on and see the past as a lesson and no longer have a grudge of a distant past. Our future is in globalization and I hope in time we will learn to forgive and unite with the rest of the world.

Hawayano

December 22nd, 2005, 09:16 PM

OH Manileño, you are right, Filipino is full of Spanish Names and they have to be translated by americans or Spanish.

...and the Latino population is the FASTEST growing ethnic group in the US (according to the latest census), and Spanish is the second most-spoken language in the US...I'm not saying that the Philippines should copy the US (Lord knows we've failed so miserably at that!); rather we should look also to the future of "global" languages. In fact, in the US grades K-12 curricula, French has given way to the rising popularity and demand for Spanish classes.

tigidig14

December 22nd, 2005, 09:17 PM

eh, too late go on with bickering, hehehe

Hawayano

December 22nd, 2005, 09:22 PM

Spanish is an elective in the US. AS well as french, tagalog . That's what it should be in the PHils. an elective. You can learn it if you choose too. We don't need another official language.
NO one is blaming the Spanish for the state of the nation. but that doesn't change the fact of the atrocities they commited towards the indios during their rule.

Sorry--US high schools require 2 years minimum of foreign language study in order to graduate. Top languages: 1) Spanish 2) Japanese 3) French 4) German 5) Mandarin (Tagalog is rarely offered on a national scale; it's still available in some areas of California, but has since been dropped in the State of Hawaii).

Animo

December 22nd, 2005, 09:29 PM

Sorry--US high schools require 2 years minimum of foreign language study in order to graduate. Top languages: 1) Spanish 2) Japanese 3) French 4) German 5) Mandarin (Tagalog is rarely offered on a national scale; it's still available in some areas of California, but has since been dropped in the State of Hawaii).

Yes, they only offer Tagalog class to those areas where you have a large population of Filipinos. I know some students who just took the class to get an easy way for graduation requirement, even if they are fluent in the language.

marites4

December 22nd, 2005, 09:31 PM

^yes but they can choose which foreign language, Solely Spanish is not required. Tagalog is offered in some parts of California where it is predominantly populated by FIlipinos. Same with Vietnamese densed demographics their language is offered as an elective foreign language. and what about Chinese , everycountry in the world has a Chinese population and they always have their exclusive school to learn the language and culture.
Isn't that ironic , Hawaii with sizeable Filipinoheritage population , tagalog language is not offered. SHouldn't fil-ams learn tagalog first before Spanish to get in touch with their roots .

kiretoce

December 22nd, 2005, 09:33 PM

If Filipino parents here in the US wanted their kids to learn Tagalog, they should teach it themselves, not rely on the public school system to do it for them.

marites4

December 22nd, 2005, 09:36 PM

that's another topic.^
besides being an elective doesn't mean you have to take it. It's just an option for THOSE who want to learn and do not have venues to learn.

Animo

December 22nd, 2005, 09:40 PM

SHouldn't fil-ams learn tagalog first before Spanish to get in touch with their roots .

A problem that arises with what you said is that not all Filipino-Americans have Tagalog as the language of their ancestors. You have tons of languages in the Philippines. That is why the students that would likely to take a Tagalog class are from Luzon or Tagalog is the language spoken at home. Unless, one is so nationalistic that they want to learn Tagalog because its the official national language.

tigidig14

December 22nd, 2005, 09:41 PM

^it doesnt go that way kimber, same concept that goes with big spanish population here in state. its an easy access of getting away with taking two years of your root language in HS. actually, in college they can be taken as a substitute for Humanities or equivalent with the same level. Marites is right spanish is not required which i regretted these days especially being here in state where mostly i interact or befriends with hispanic people.

marites4

December 22nd, 2005, 09:45 PM

A problem that arises with what you said is that not all Filipino-Americans have Tagalog as the language of their ancestor. You have tons of languages in the Philippines. That is why the students that would likely to take a Tagalog class are from Luzon or Tagalog is the language spoken at home.
WEll there you go. We already have hundreds of dialects causing division. Tagalog is not even mastered in areas outside of Luzon , let alone ENglish. So let's master tagalog and ENglish first before adding another official language. TAgalog should take precedence over Spanish.

DonQui

December 22nd, 2005, 09:48 PM

Animo

December 22nd, 2005, 09:51 PM

WEll there you go. We already have hundreds of dialects causing division. Tagalog is not even mastered in areas outside of Luzon , let alone ENglish. So let's master tagalog and ENglish first before adding another official language. TAgalog should take precedence over Spanish.

I thought we are looking for a unifiying language here? Tagalog has an effeminate accent, while Cebuano the de facto lingua franca of Visayas and Mindanao has a masculine accent. What you are trying to do would make things complicated to others. As, state by most forumers we are not looking for adding Spanish as a co-official language in the near future. We are talking mostly about the benefits that the Filipinos will get in trying to learn the language.

PS.

My 1st language is Cebuano (which has more Spanish influence compared to Tagalog) or Visayan and in learning Spanish I find it easier for me to speak and understand it. The accent is close to Cebuano, because it has that familiar fuerza of the words when spoken.

marites4

December 22nd, 2005, 09:52 PM

tagalog is based mostly on Malay words mixed with bastardized Spanish , the Indios were not allowed to learn Spanish so they made up their own words that sound similar to Spanish words.
It's just we needed a unifying language and tagalog was picked or FIlipino.
To change it every year would be to confusing . Lets pick one and stick to it. Same with presidents and leaders , lets pick one and stick to it. If we keep changing our minds we get nowhere.

kiretoce

December 22nd, 2005, 09:57 PM

Here's a thought....let English be the "official language" used in business, government, and education nationwide (since majority speaks/understands it), and have Tagalog, Ilocano, Bicolano, Hiligaynon, Cebuano, Waray, and the other major dialects be relegated to "national language" status.

Hmm....that might be a good idea if and when Federalism is achieved in the Philippines, that way each proposed state can have and preserve their own cultural and linguistic identity.

Animo

December 22nd, 2005, 09:58 PM

Hmm....that might be a good idea if and when Federalism is achieved in the Philippines, that way each proposed state can have and preserve their own cultural and linguistic identity.

True, that is why a majority of the people outside Luzon are clamoring for it.

tigidig14

December 22nd, 2005, 10:00 PM

drfeelgood17

December 22nd, 2005, 10:00 PM

MIKERU Z

December 22nd, 2005, 10:03 PM

HI!, i am from the mexican forum, i hope i am welcome.
Yeah!!!, do it!!, i have met many filipinos and they great people!, they say they have many spanish words in philippines like 'mesa' is it right?.
I know English is the most important language currently, but i think spanish is a lovely language.
It would be great to have a spanish speaking country in Asia!!.

marites4

December 22nd, 2005, 10:05 PM

:bow: i love marites :lol:
feeling is mutual . :hug: :lol:

Animo

December 22nd, 2005, 10:05 PM

kiretoce

December 22nd, 2005, 10:06 PM

Hola MIKERU! You're very much welcome here! :hi:

drfeelgood17, I whole heartily agree! :okay:

drfeelgood17

December 22nd, 2005, 10:06 PM

kiretoce

December 22nd, 2005, 10:07 PM

feeling is mutual . :hug: :lol:

Tigs and Marites....another love team? :lol: :jk: Peace! :nocrook:

drfeelgood17

December 22nd, 2005, 10:11 PM

drfeelgood17

December 22nd, 2005, 10:11 PM

Hola MIKERU! You're very much welcome here! :hi:

drfeelgood17, I whole heartily agree! :okay:

I'm glad someone does! :)

MIKERU Z

December 22nd, 2005, 10:14 PM

Hola a todos!,I am happy for being welcome!
i was always wondering if there is a remaining spanish speaking population in the Philippines.

Animo

December 22nd, 2005, 10:16 PM

Hola a todos!,I am happy for being welcome!
i was always wondering if there is a remaining spanish speaking population in the Philippines.

We have a separate thread here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=290454&page=1

Culiat

December 22nd, 2005, 10:19 PM

but if we're gonna do this we should first enrich our own native language, coz as you can see many people especially those from the urban areas couldn't speak straight tagalog.

kiretoce

December 22nd, 2005, 10:19 PM

Hola a todos!,I am happy for being welcome!
i was always wondering if there is a remaining spanish speaking population in the Philippines.

There are still remnants around....

Ratoncito

December 23rd, 2005, 12:53 AM

I think for Spanish to become successful and take root in the RP there has to be sufficient demand for it. Whether or not it becomes official, co-official or optional is less important than the interest we have for it. After all, Spanish was official until 1973, but because interest in it declined in favour of English, it became less and less popular and, as a result, very few Filipinos speak it fluently nowadays.

When Spanish was dropped as an official language by the Marcos regime, Spain was also languishing in the last days of Franco, it was poor compared to other European countries and had little prestige in the eyes of Filipinos, who wanted to ape everything American. Now, the situation is very different: Spain is one of the fastest growing economies in the EU and it is now a modern, successful and progressive country. A Filipino visiting Madrid today would be very surprised to see how far present-day Spain has come. S/he will find very little evidence of garrotes, torture, Inquisition, religious zealots, auto-da-fes etc...etc...Unlike the US and the RP there is no capital punishment in Spain. Madrid has one of the most modern subway systems in Europe. There are high-speed trains that serve Madrid and Seville and state of the art galleries are commonplace. The Spanish language is the third most widely spoken language in the world and is as much a vital part of today's globalized economy as English. This means that learning Spanish today is not only useful for discovering our past and understanding our culture, it is also vital for our future progress and our participation on the global stage.

Those who oppose the reintroduction of Spanish often say that it is the language of our colonial oppressors. But they forget that speaking English is no less "colonial", the Americans, just like the British and the Spanish before them, also indulged in imperial expansion: we Filipinos are the product of this!
Learning Spanish is also NOT a threat to Tagalog or "Filipino" - if this was the case, we would all now be speaking English only in the RP...which is clearly not the case!! There is nothing wrong with enriching our knowledge by learning other languages, we learn about other cultures too. We also learn that there is more to life than getting a green card and taking the next plane to California to become a nurse! (Not that there is anything wrong with nursing...it is clearly an important vocation...but not the only one...) So I am all in favour of new languages - the more, the better!

Muchas gracias drfeelgood for recognicing all our achievements and progress we have done in only 25 years.

What you said about Death Penalty in Filipinas and the USA is correct; in Spain we do not have it, afortunately, coz everyone has the right to change and improve. This is a sign of being a progressive country and has nothing to do with torture or garrotes.

I am very impressed about you knowing so well Madrid and our High Speed Trains, designed and made in Spain, and modern subway. I am glad you know about all this.

All this you know about "garrote", Inquisición, torture, etc.,,... was caused and developed by what we call National Catholicsm (Nacional Catolicismo) which kept Spain in the tail of Europe for 200 years.

But at last, it has been removed from Spanish Public Life.

I think Spain should help more and more Filipinas, giving scholarships to Filipinos (I think this has just started by Spanish Government) and, seeing fotos of INTRAMUROS, we should rebuild one building every year; What japanese and americans destroyed in two years, we could rebuild it in a few.
For what I have seen, INTRAMUROS and all these colonial buildings are VERY nice and should be a lot more protected, as we have them in Spain; this Heritage is to be kept for ever, such a richness.......

Spain should have a commitment helping Filipinas and powering relationships between the two countries. How? Empowering cultural relationships, giving more scholarships, giving low cost loans or even donations for this Heritage to be rebuilt. As some of you know, Spain has got a very rich Roman Heritage, Greek and of course Spanish old buildings very similar to Intramuros. And we have construction companies who are specialised in rebuilding ruined museums, houses, bridges, etc... so that we could send them to Intramuros in Manila to do the same thing with Filipina´s Heritage.

I think, both countries could achieve some really good cultural exchange and re stablish good relationships.

saludos y Feliz Navidad a todos.

Askal82

December 23rd, 2005, 03:17 AM

Animo

December 23rd, 2005, 03:30 AM

IF YOU drive past La Salle Greenhills, you'll notice an announcement on a billboard about Chinese Mandarin language classes.

I doubt if La Salle did that to attract more Chinese-Filipino ("Tsinoy") students. After all, only a few kilometers away is Xavier School, which has been offering Chinese classes for almost 50 years now.

La Salle's move is probably intended for non-ethnic Chinese-Filipinos, coming out of a recognition that some knowledge of Chinese can be an advantage for their graduates, and I don't mean just an ability to bargain in Chinese when you deal with a Tsinoy business establishment. Chinese opens the door to what's sometimes called Greater China, a bustling growth region which includes the People's Republic of China, the special administrative regions of Hong Kong and Macau as well as Taiwan and Singapore.

While our national government continues to flip-flop with its language policy -- Filipino, English or Filipino and English -- forward-looking Filipinos are going a step further and looking for schools that will give their children proficiency in English, Filipino and more. Some do this by sending their children to Chinese schools, which not only offer Chinese language classes but also have quite high standards for math and the sciences. The really rich ones look to local international schools, which offer foreign language options such as Spanish, French and German as early as the elementary grades.

Dutch pragmatism

We should learn from the Dutch, who offer a variety of languages to all their students, whether in private or public schools, in the elementary grades. The way it was explained to me by Dutch friends, this policy rose out of pragmatism. The Netherlands is a small country, with a population only slightly larger than that of Metro Manila. They're surrounded by powerful neighbors like Germany, so multilingualism became an essential part of their survival strategy to deal with their powerful neighbors for economic and political purposes.

Dutch multilingualism didn't mean abandoning their national language. Dutch continues to be the primary language in homes, schools and offices and there's massive translation of books from all kinds of languages into Dutch. In other words, the Dutch learn languages to explore the world, and also to bring the world's wonders back in to the Netherlands by translating great literature and practical books into Dutch.

Just to give you an idea of how extensive the Dutch's translation work is, they've even produced a bilingual edition (Dutch and English, from what I remember) of Rene Villanueva's "Kung Bakit Umuulan" (Why It Rains), a children's book based on a Panay folktale about a feminist goddess named Alunsina.

The Dutch figured it out ages ago: The debate shouldn't be about being monolingual or bilingual. In this day and age, multilingualism is the way to go.

Moreover, the Dutch don't aim for perfection with foreign languages. They continue to emphasize proficiency in the national language, while teaching students to pick up enough of a foreign language to be able to communicate. So when they speak English, it's still with a thick Dutch accent and still often using Dutch syntax and words. They don't apologize for that since their aim is to communicate, and they do that quite well.

In the Philippines, we still have pretensions about perfecting English, ending up incomprehensible because we try too hard to ape American "dick-shyon" (accent on shyon) and to use fancy but inappropriate terms.

Need

If we go multilingual, we need to do this based on need, which will vary depending on the niche you're aiming for. If you want to enter the foreign service, then you need English and French. For seafarers, English remains essential as they roam the world, working with different nationalities on board. It's also English that provides Filipino seafarers an edge over Koreans and Chinese, currently our leading competitors in the seafaring industry.

I sometimes worry about the choices made by young people, at least with the ones I'm seeing at the University of the Philippines. Japanese, for example, seems to be a more popular choice than Chinese, sometimes for banal reasons ("I like anime," one student told me). When you think about it, the chances of a Filipino using Japanese are not that great, given the difficulties of penetrating that job market. Wanting to learn Japanese to understand Japanese culture, beyond
anime, is fine. But if we want to be practical, Chinese would go a longer way. Even Singaporeans have been intensifying language training for Mandarin Chinese, which is different from Hokkien, the language used by most Singaporeans.

With European languages, the impression I'm getting is that students in the University of the Philippines are more interested in French and Italian than in Spanish. At least two of my students have told me they chose French and Italian because they're "sexier." If sexiness is the basis for choosing a foreign language, then go for Portuguese. That way, too, you get to communicate with more people since Portuguese has more speakers than French.

Linguistic capital

In terms of practical value, I'd still pitch for Spanish. We need Spanish to learn more about ourselves, given how our history and culture are so embedded in that language. While few Filipinos actually speak Spanish, the imprint is there in all our languages, affecting the way we think about the world.

I always tell my Latin American friends that we're actually part of their continent, except we ended up on the other side of the Pacific. We share so much with many Latin American countries because of our colonial experiences with Spain and the United States. In the 1970s, we again suffered together with Latin America from US-sponsored dictatorships. Today, our inability to speak Spanish means we lose out on many opportunities for common causes with Latin Americans around business, politics and culture.

Language is capital. It's just that we've tied ourselves too much to the US dollar, we may be losing out by thinking only of English, with narrow goals like getting a cut of the call center market.

We become more competitive if we diversify our "portfolio" of linguistic capital. Part of that diversification will come as we recognize how our fortunes lie closer to home, in working with neighboring countries, which means we should be getting more Filipinos to pick up Chinese or Bahasa Indonesia. I hope, too, that we go back to learning Spanish, not just so we can read Neruda in the original but because Spanish allows us to rediscover our past, even as we find ways to reconnect to the present, to our "neighbors" across the Pacific.

http://www.inq7.net/globalnation/col_pik/2005/nov21

sista

December 23rd, 2005, 04:06 AM

^^ wow a very long article, but worth the read. I absolutely agree with it :)

tigidig14

December 23rd, 2005, 04:29 AM

And so is English who is made up mostly of Latin and French. If its not, then English today would sound more German. :)
i thought english was derived from german

Askal82

December 23rd, 2005, 04:48 AM

i thought english was derived from german

Well, they both belong in the same family of languages but each branched out further during their development. Many French and Latin terms were infused into Anglo-Saxon vocabulary which evolved into English that we are now speaking.

So, just imagine how English will sound like without French and Latin influences and we will be talking a different kind of English that sounds more like Dutch or German.

Askal82

December 23rd, 2005, 05:07 AM

^^ That is a very sad reason why many students want to learn French or Italian rather than Spanish just because it's sexier. They didn't realize its importance in the context of culture and history it made on the Philippines. I think our generation are suffering from the so-called cultural and historial amnesia. Filipino practice Hispanic culture yet they have no idea why they are doing it and expresses no interest in finding out about that part of the culture that made them do it. Ask people why their religion is Catholic and all they say is that Spain gave it to us and most won't even bother to find out that aspect of culture as long as they keep doing it.

I mean you if you want to learn a language, you got to have a meaningful reason why you want to.

Ratoncito

December 23rd, 2005, 06:22 AM

ThisFire

December 23rd, 2005, 06:35 AM

I'm replying to this topic and to previous posts here.

First, it's a fact that Spanish was never going to be a language in the Philippines spoken by the majority. But the truth was that from colonial days to the mid part of the twentieth century, it was spoken by enough people to make it noticeable.

There are reasons why it was never going to be spoken as much as like Tagalog. One reason was distance, the Philippines was too far from Spain and not a great number were able to go to the Philippines unlike in Mexico, Central and South America. Common sense. I'm sure that if the Philippines was closer, they'd choose to go to the Philippines as well.
Also, someone used examples about Puerto Rico speaking Spanish even if the americans took over. Again, distance. Even if you go to Puerto Rico, it's just US affiliated in contract and it's a Puerto Rican society. And they did have natives there to begin with but they were mixed quickly and also died due to disease brought by the Spanish. And about someone mentioning that the Philippines already had a malay culture, yes, but in latin america, they were far more advanced than the natives of Philippines. For example in Mexico, they already had societies and established empires with business and gold, but then the huge number of Spaniards came in and took over brutally. Our latin american amigos had such a rough past that the Philippines was a vacation compared to what they went through. We weren't really slaves. And about someone mentioning that Spanish isn't as used in business, sorry but that's totally incorrect. Look at the rapidly growing latino population, and that's also including the latino population in the US who are really making an impact now almost like they're majority. Spanish is one of the major languages in the world. We could be a part of it as well. But back to the whole Spanish language thing.
There are threads here showing Manila being ruined during world war II and this is what some theorists say was also a cause of the last of the big spanish-speaking population disappearing. There are books and websites that have theories saying that there was a Philippine-American war and that the americans have always considered the Spanish-hispanic culture to be backward and religious, so they wanted to get rid of it. Look at the results we see up to now with our own people saying bad things about the Spanish times in the Philippines. Every colonizer had their brutal parts but the Spanish is another part of our foundation. They added onto our foundation. They are also our foundation. The Americans were too recent in arriving and though they brought the education system and English, they helped ruin things as well. But thankfully not enough, because our culture is a latino-pacific culture but always Filipino. There were journals made during the american times in the country, of american teachers who wrote that they were frustrated that the Filipinos were either not interested in learning english or if they did learn english, Spanish and broken Spanish was still being spoken in the streets and elite. This only showed that the Americans really had a goal to get rid of our Spanish/latino culture. Putas. And they made us drop our footballs by shoving basketball down our throats.
I don't think Spanish can now be an official language in population but it can be promoted like it was before through curriculum at schools, maybe one or two years compulsory or promoting it so that naturally it will be taken up by students. It is a part of our culture whether we like it or not, because without it, we would even be lost in our native dialects like Tagalog. So I think we can maybe recognize that Spanish is still spoken in parts of the country like in Zamboanga, and other populations, etc., but we can maybe add it to the list just to recognize those people and our history. It won't hurt anyone.

ThisFire

Hawayano

December 23rd, 2005, 07:21 AM

I thought Ilocano was available in Hawaii?

Although Ilokano is spoken by a large portion of the pinoy population here, it's not taught in the high school level. Tagalog classes were short-lived back in the 1990s, and only at one high school (a Catholic one). Insufficient enrollment in subsequent years caused its demise. However, the University of Hawaii does have very viable Tagalog and Ilokano courses, taken primarily by Filipinos and a few Caucasians majoring in SE Asian studies. We Filipinos still live under a stigma of negative stereotypes, making us the butt of jokes here for quite sometime.

Askal82

December 23rd, 2005, 07:22 AM

Okay, I think we shouldn't be bashing about cultures here because both Spain and America contributed both bad and good influences in the Philippine soceity. Maybe we should promote more positive cultural and historical awareness that connects Filipinos with their former colonizers. Let's have an open mind by going beyond what our current history books are telling us.

Animo

December 23rd, 2005, 07:28 AM

^^ Yes, it is time to look beyond what Philippine books (needs to be updated) tells us.

Louman

December 23rd, 2005, 07:42 AM

Philippines is still in the Latin Union, believe it or not. We're the only non Spanish speaking country in that union. We're not an observer unlike the membership GMA is trying to get in the OIC (Organization of Islamic Countries.)

tigidig14

December 23rd, 2005, 07:45 AM

^tell her to switch to muslim
BALIK-ISLAM like Robin

weirdo

December 23rd, 2005, 07:53 AM

i'd have to agree with most of the posts here that there is no need for the philippines to make spanish an official language because we will learn and use it if we want to. even if english becomes unofficial i think it would still be used here because people want to use it.

so i'm glad that most schools offer courses on other languages aside from filipino and english. aside from that there are other institutions and language schools. what i want though is not simple crash courses on these foreign language. because students tend to lose facility on the languages they learned when they stopped taking their subjects.

i am a product of these courses and have taken different languages such as mandarin, latin, italian and spanish. i've taken 15 units of spanish (nivel 5) in instituto cervantes but even that is not enough for me to be able to make sense in the spanish samahan thread.

it's in the students too i think. some are already contented with being able to speak basic sentences and converse with people about basic stuff. and they should encourage each other. some are too evil when mates make mistakes. some are too afraid to make a mistake so they do not practice.

maybe people should consider seeking aid from the media too since it is very effective. most of the children know english well because of cable tv. even some know japanese without taking courses in japanese because of anime. spanish is relatively easier to master because there are so many spanish speakers and students here plus more exposure on pop culture like spanish songs, spanish tv (tve?), subtitled series and great movies (castilian and latin american) even dora show is helpful for kids.

i agree too that there should be goals in studying languages like appreciating the past and being more competitive in the international level. it's gonna drive anyone to take the studies more seriously and it's really more effective.

Louman

December 23rd, 2005, 07:57 AM

^tell her to switch to muslim
BALIK-ISLAM like Robin

It's because of the sizable Muslim population, especially in Mindanao. I think it would be a good idea since it might help calm down the separatist movement in Mindanao.

tigidig14

December 23rd, 2005, 08:00 AM

^and around quaipo

Animo

December 23rd, 2005, 08:02 AM

^tell her to switch to muslim
BALIK-ISLAM like Robin

Ikaw Tigs kaya mo mag-Arabic?! Mas mahirap ata iyon, kasi hindi ko nga ma-pronounce kahit na nag-paturo ako sa mama ko ng konting expressions. My decease grandfather went to an Arabic school, because he was practicing Islam.

Askal82

December 23rd, 2005, 08:14 AM

Askal82

December 23rd, 2005, 08:15 AM

^tell her to switch to muslim
BALIK-ISLAM like Robin

:lol: Hey, but Arabic isn't a bad language to learn too. We have so many OFW's in Middle East.

mhe-ann

December 23rd, 2005, 11:10 AM

what i want though is not simple crash courses on these foreign language. because students tend to lose facility on the languages they learned when they stopped taking their subjects.
hmm..true. I took some japanese lessons lessons before but since it's seldom being used here (in my company) and I already finished the course, I'm now having hard time constructing sentences. even the basic ones. :bash:

Ratoncito

December 24th, 2005, 03:51 AM

ThisFire

December 24th, 2005, 04:16 AM

^ I watched some of that channel when I last visited the Philippines

ThisFire

December 24th, 2005, 04:19 AM

Askal82

December 24th, 2005, 06:39 AM

I think Filipinos are so confused even with English itself alone. Many think they'll use them for making a living so they don't prioritize speaking it as part of their daily lives. You are more likely to impress anybody when you can speak it properly in the Philippines. At home and throughout their daily lives, they will speak in their native tongues up to 99.99% of the time.

During my last visit in the Philippines, I observed that most road signs and billboards are on English. I think some of these English words are only used to facilitate the formation of ideas otherwise considered cumbersome or impossible in Tagalog or other languages. For example, when you encounter the road sign 'One Way', can you think of any Tagalog equivalent of it lets say within 5 seconds? The drivers would most likely say: Hindi pwede dito, one way eh. (I can't go here because its one way) You get my point?

What I found out however, is that most Filipinos can read, understand gather their thoughts and ideas to write them down in English. The problem is when they begin to speak it out. No wonder, Filipino lawyers can pass the bar exam written in English yet some of them can't talk in English fluently that they are supposed to.

Philippines have come a long way in learning English and yet it still failed to fully integrate that language in their daily lives (except the few) by totally speaking it. However, I still encourage Spanish to be learned but expect an uphill ride against a sharper slope.

manileño

December 24th, 2005, 01:13 PM

^^ now who said the phils. is the 3rd largest english speaking country?
even the lingua franca of filipino communities abroad is tagalog, believe it or not. Although i admit english is an important language to learn and we should continue learning it, we shouldn't confine ourselves to just that cos there are a lot more important things to learn in life, in schools. Science and Math. These subjects are taught in a language wherein Filipinos are not good at. (All subjects are taught in English except History/Makabayan, Filipino in all schools public and private. English is itself a subject.) And when the students go home, go out to play, they'll be back to speaking their native language and the knowledge that was given to them in Science and Math are almost totally forgotten and foregone when they discontinue english. Science and Math are supposed to be what would lift the country's economy to the most rural area.

With Spanish, i totally agree that this should be brought back to Philippine schools and be treated just like English, a foreign language to Filipinos.

Official Language and medium of instruction should be their own language(s). Tagalog (Official) and the regional languages (medium of instruction).

wecky

December 24th, 2005, 03:57 PM

SHOULD SPANISH BE RE ESTABLISHED AS CO OFICIAL LANGUAGE??

si

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marites4

December 24th, 2005, 04:04 PM

medium of instruction should be in English starting fr preschools . Not just in private schools also public schools. The best time to absorb a language is your formative years ,which starts at your youngest years.

manileño

December 24th, 2005, 05:02 PM

^^ Mr. Sundita will explain it to you better:

As it stands, only Tagalog & English are taught in schools and those are the languages in which textbooks are available. In theory, the regional languages are taught from an early age and then Tagalog & English are used as the media of instruction.

This horrible pratice must come to an end.

Research has shown that students learn better in their native languages. Makes sense, doesn't it? I am taking a class on Statistics now. It is rather challenging. I speak Spanish quite well. However, I'd be at a disadvantage if I learned about statistics in Spanish. I'd much prefer English to ensure that I understand everything. Similarly, why force a Bikolano child to learn about math in Tagalog & English - languages that are not his own? It'd be much more better in the long run to learn in his own language.

The medium of instruction should be - wherever possible - the native language. Think about it, learning about physics in Kapampangan. There are the nay-sayers who say that it cannot be done. But you know what? It's possible. If the Indonesians, Thais, and Japanese can do it - then so can we.

One of the arguments against this was that there are no native scientific vocabulary. Well, I have news for you - neither does English. Most of its scientific vocabulary is from Latin and Greek. Tagalog, Kapampangan, and whatever else can do the same.

I illustrated this points months ago in a discussion forum where I took a sentence from my physics textbook to explain the concept of acceleration with a falling object:

"Isang bagay na nahuhulog ay bumibilis nang 9.8 m/s bawa't segundo kung
kakaunting-kaunti lamang ang resistensya ng hangin. "

(A falling object gains speed at a rate of 9.8 m/s per second if there is very little wind resistence.)

Now, that wasn't hard.

So, am I advocating the removal of English in the school curriculum. Of course not! I see a lot of value in English, and its loss would be detrimental to Filipinos.

If anything, English should be treated as what it really is to most Filipinos - a foreign language. English shouldn't be used to teach math and sciences.