Developers To Detail $14B Plans Around Penn Station
By ELIOT BROWN
Special to the Sun
June 14, 2007


A plan for building a set of towering skyscrapers, two grandlyscaled train halls, and a new Madison Square Garden around the existing Pennsylvania Station are rapidly advancing, and the state hopes to begin the public review process for the project, known as Moynihan Station, in the next few weeks.

The developers' revised designs, which are said to include a pair of towers taller than the Empire State Building to be built on the current site of Madison Square Garden, could swiftly transform Midtown South into a thriving epicenter of commercial activity centered around one of the largest transit hubs in the country.

The proposals, which could cost more than $14 billion including the private development, are being shown to elected officials and community groups by a joint development team, Vornado Realty

Trust and the Related Companies.

A spokesman for New York's Empire State Development Corporation said the state has yet to complete negotiations about the complex development rights and possible public subsidies for the renovation of Penn Station. Developers say they hope to start construction in 2008 after the sometimes lengthy process of public approval is completed.

The project takes its name from the late Senator Moynihan, who favored the concept of transforming part of the Corinthiancolumned Farley Post Office building, which sits across Eighth Avenue from Madison Square Garden, into a train station reminiscent of the original Penn Station. It has been under consideration for at least 15 years and faced numerous financial and political obstacles.

While the developers had publicly discussed their vision for the comprehensive plan about a year ago, the concept is now refined, more specific, and closer to reality, people familiar with the plans said, and come after a spider web of discussions among the numerous stakeholders that has gone on for months.

People familiar with the designs say they call for a complex containing 5.5 million square feet built on what is now Madison Square Garden. Primarily office buildings, it includes two towers whose spires will be taller than 1,400 feet. Another tower, to be built along Seventh Avenue near One Penn Plaza, would utilize 2 million square feet of developable air rights transferred from the Farley Post Office site.

Under the plans, the existing Pennsylvania Station would be reconfigured to allow natural light into the train hall, which is now buried under low ceilings.

"The whole place will be flooded with daylight," the president of the developers' Moynihan Station Venture team, Vishaan Chakrabarti, said. He called it "a dramatically nicer space that, again, is larger than the main room at Grand Central."

Given its scale, the project could be extraordinarily lucrative for the developers. Vornado has a significant number of other holdings in the area that would presumably skyrocket in value. The magnitude of the project also makes it risky, the developers say, especially since the most lucrative part of the complex — the private towers in the place on the current Garden site — could not be completed until near the end of the project, which could take up to 10 years.

"If you think about it, the place where we make any money is the towers that get built last — it's an extraordinary risk," Mr. Chakrabarti said.

Historic preservation groups, including the Municipal Art Society and the Landmarks Conservancy, have expressed concerns that the main hall in the Farley building would effectively be turned into an entrance for a new sports arena; they took issue with the possibility of using the post office's original sales windows as ticket booths for events.

The developers say the rebuilt Madison Square Garden acts as a critical component for that space.

"It certainly moves the center of gravity of Midtown to the south and the west, and it effectively expands the Midtown central business district with a significant new anchor," the chief executive officer of the Partnership for New York City, Kathryn Wylde, said.

cant wait for a pic

14 billion :runaway:

wow. thats agressive, 2 1400 footers?
lets see if this gets done.

wow. thats agressive, 2 1400 footers?
lets see if this gets done.

NY desperately needs office space. In addition, a third tower of 2m+ s.f. is reported for that site and Vornado plans a fourth tower of 2.5m s.f. across the street on the Hotel Penn site. That's four buildings in the 1,000 foot + range on one block!

This is slightly higher than ESB and in the same locality?

oh great. here we go again with the height tease. 'it includes two towers whose spires will be taller than 1,400 feet.' i hope i'm wrong, but i can easily see ~1000 foot towers (not that impressive) with 400 foot antennas (slightly exaggerating, but look at FT's 400 footer!). i guess i fall into the category where the 'tip don't count'....now...roof height at 1400, then i'll raise my eyebrows.

we'll see!

oh great. here we go again with the height tease. 'it includes two towers whose spires will be taller than 1,400 feet.' i hope i'm wrong, but i can easily see ~1000 foot towers (not that impressive) with 400 foot antennas (slightly exaggerating, but look at FT's 400 footer!). i guess i fall into the category where the 'tip don't count'....now...roof height at 1400, then i'll raise my eyebrows.

we'll see!

Welcome :)

Awesome!!

lol two towers that are 700 feet with 700 feet spires could you imagine if that were the case??
Anyways i hope they are 1300 at roof and just 100 foot spire.

lol two towers that are 700 feet with 700 feet spires could you imagine if that were the case??
Anyways i hope they are 1300 at roof and just 100 foot spire.

Spires add nothing other than aesthetic value, and I imagine they're not too desirable to the property developers who wish to maximise profits...

Wow, taller than the ESP??

That sounds amazing. They would be the second largest buildings in NYC right? After the Freedom Tower at 1776 feet...?

Well they wont be near the size of the old WTC however they will be a great addition to the skyline, pending design. This should be good.

Nice.

So in metric, 427m each.

Thanks LLoydGeorge.

Nice.

So in metric, 427m each.

Thanks LLoydGeorge.

Wow :eek: :eek: Great hight :okay:!

Incredible if true... this would transform New York's skyline (and that's saying something!).

Well they wont be near the size of the old WTC however they will be a great addition to the skyline, pending design. This should be good.



The old Twin Towers were shorter than 1400ft. The proposed towers will be only about 50ft shorter than the Sears Tower:nuts:

So including these new towers, New York could potentially have 11 supertalls by pinnacle height within the next few years...

http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?28411971

Waiting for confirmation and final design unveiling. :cheers:

Good news for NYC, sounds very generous with the amount of space being offered too. how many floors are we talking about and what would be the floor to ceiling heights of a floor roughly?

is this... for real? Wicked! Still im not sure by the line :spires would reach 1400 ft....

the height is impressive..can't wait for render! ;)

NY is incredible, difficult to imagine that town in 50 years or so :lol:

$14 billion would beat City Center in Las Vegas and make it the biggest investment in the US for a single project.

14 billion :runaway:

wow. thats agressive, 2 1400 footers?
lets see if this gets done.my thoughts exactly.

Supposedly Norman Foster is the lead architect.

I know New York is a big City and will continue to grow and evolve but I hope any buildings close to the Empire State Building don't shrink it???? You know...The illusion of a buildings size is affected by a larger building nearby??? If this new project is on the Madison Sq. Gdn. site it is still a few blocks away yet about parrallel across Manhattan from memory..so ESB will look smaller from the Hudson????

my thoughts exactly.

NY is the most unique real estate market in the US. The city can fill 6 m sf of space with ease.

Even forgetting the commercial market, consider the NY residential market. While the rest of the country is suffering, NY's market is red hot. Trump can't sell out his Chicago tower at $800/ s.f., and yet comparable space in the TWT, 15 CPW and the Plaza is selling out rapidly in NY at $6,000/ s.f.

these tower might be buit before freedom is even finsh

these tower might be buit before freedom is even finsh

:lol:, yeah...i thought the same ^^

NY Guy from WNY posted this to show where Vornado's development (and one proposed by Brookfield nearby) will rise.
http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/69904123/original.jpg

Incredible news! :banana:

Just to get an idea.
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5/p1010030msg4ao2.jpg
No, it's not real.
My friend was hinting that they would be taller than Sears Tower.
And no one said they would be twins, unless I missed something.

It'd be great!!!

from the article, sounds like these ar at least ten years away

I really appreciate this idea. I can't wait to see renders of the planned buildings, I hope they'll give back some of the glance of the old WTC.

So including these new towers, New York could potentially have 11 supertalls by pinnacle height within the next few years...

http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?28411971


that diagram makes me hate spires even more :ohno:


but this project sound very exciting i can't wait for more info/renders

from the article, sounds like these ar at least ten years away

Completion of the 1,400 foot towers is ten years away. The article states that construction of the first phase (presumably, the 2.5m s.f. tower on 7th Ave.) would start in 2008.

wowow this sounds great...New York needs some skyscrapers that 'stand out' as it only the ESB that is really notisable...all the rest seem to be at a similar height...200m-300m

Hopefully they'll be 1,400 feet to the roof!

Yes i think that NY needs another kick! We should demolish some of the old building and replace them, with 1000ft+ buildings. Its time to move on from the 1930's!

If there's anywhere in the US that a pair of 1400ft towers should go, it's right on top of Penn Station. That place is a real nexus of activity. So many people go through there every day it's just ridiculous.

Hope they go ahead with the rebuild of the post office into a replacement station as well. I found the current Penn to be confusing and crowded.

I agree, Penn Station can use some work. I really hope the designs are nice, nothing too awkward since they're so tall. Graceful I hope.

AMAZING NEWS!

:dance:

Awesome, more monolithic towers for NYC. :cheers:

good news for nyc :) you have all the classics in place, and now you're challenging the other growing cities in building new landmarks as well. looks like nyc will remain the ultimate city for skyscrapers after all. sweet justice. i'm happy for you.

This is all great! As a non-American, I have this pretty typical view of New York, and it's mostly Empire State Building, Chrysler Building, Statue of Liberty etc. It's fantastic that New York is set to finally get these new great landmarks (along with the new WTC), keeping it as a modern skyscraper city! :)

Amazing!!!

man some love for midtown is awsome but hearing a rumor-mill of over 1,000 is great but taller than the Sears...now that is spectacular

I think we'll see renderings within the next few weeks. I'm 100% sure that NY will have at least a dozen 1000'+ footers in less than a decade. I'll guarantee you that the world will be shocked. The WestSide skyscrapers will make up America's 4th largest CBD, only behind Chicago Loop, Lower Manhattan and Midtown Manhattan. That's like building the LA skyline on Manhattan Island. The cluster will be massive. That's not including all of the other projects.

Amazing!!

good news for nyc :) you have all the classics in place, and now you're challenging the other growing cities in building new landmarks as well..

I mean, maybe thats why theyre proposing these; but until then lets not make it seem like NYC is 'challenging' anybody :)
the rest of the world can have 10 better skylines for all I care, Im all for world growth!

I think we'll see renderings within the next few weeks. I'm 100% sure that NY will have at least a dozen 1000'+ footers in less than a decade. I'll guarantee you that the world will be shocked. The WestSide skyscrapers will make up America's 4th largest CBD, only behind Chicago Loop, Lower Manhattan and Midtown Manhattan. That's like building the LA skyline on Manhattan Island. The cluster will be massive. That's not including all of the other projects.

i've the feeling NY will keep up with the numbers of Supertalls in Dubai in the Future.

BUILD IT!! This project would be sick, guaranteeing the development of the entire far west side and giving the New York skyline a much needed exclamation point (which its been missing since 9/11).

NYC is incredible!!!

Just to get an idea.
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5/p1010030msg4ao2.jpg
No, it's not real.
My friend was hinting that they would be taller than Sears Tower.
And no one said they would be twins, unless I missed something.


*Drools*

14B...wow...great news

Fantastic news!

At least they are building twin towers after twin towers were lost.

when they've the same height and design we've twins otherwise not

I'm not so hot on the idea of massive twin towers in New York City. They're already building new World Trade Center towers, and I think that that'd be the only appropriate place for twin towers.

Great News..... waiting for a render :)

It seems to be a very big project for NYC.
I'm also curious about that project of transforming the Post Office into a reminiscent of Old Penn Station.This seems great!

Two skyscrapers well over 1,400 feet tall would be a "very big project" for any city.

OMG i can't believe it.. Even taller than the Sear tower. WOW

OMG i can't believe it.. Even taller than the Sear tower. WOWThe distance to the roof of the Sears Tower is 442 m (1,450 ft 7 in), adding the 2 antennas increasing its total height to 520 m (1,707 ft).

Sears Tower will have the edge, but twin 1400 foot towers will be impressive.

These towers will be suit at all to NYC- the capital of the world.

I hope this gets built!

I got some pics that a guy posted, but quickly took down:

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/4955/687474703a2f2f7777772e7ze4.jpg

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/4633/687474703a2f2f7777772e7sl3.jpg

I don't think those are them. For one, they are supposed to have spires, and I'm pretty sure that rendering is of a totally different version of the plan.

looking good! cant wait to see the official renderings! go NYC!

I don't think those are them. For one, they are supposed to have spires, and I'm pretty sure that rendering is of a totally different version of the plan.so they will have spires?? but the roof will be 427(1400ft) or with the spires will be 427 m?

"It includes two towers whose spires will be taller than 1,400 feet."

hmmm. Midtown trying to steal WTC complex's thunder? I'm looking forward to this, even though its quite a few years from reality...

I hope they are just as tall as the ex-wtc.

It would be neat.

You never know what will happen. It's completely possible that these could be the tallest twin towers in the world... I would not be shocked.

Now this is very nice! I'd love it if they could be on the Top 3.

no matter what they look like...twin 427m towers will look awesome in that part of town:-)

sounds great but just like many others, i want to see the renders to see if it's all real.

sounds great but just like many others, i want to see the renders to see if it's all real.

It's definitely real. The developer is one of the biggest in the City and has unlimited funds. Also, the proposal includes not only the twins, but 2 other towers that will be about 900 feet tall each.

You never know what will happen. It's completely possible that these could be the tallest twin towers in the world... I would not be shocked.

Never. There is a general antipathy to mega-tall buildings in NY. 1,200 to 1,400 feet is as tall as these will rise.

Ross Predicts A 2008 Start For New MSG
By DAVID LOMBINO
Staff Reporter of the Sun
November 30, 2006

A developer involved in the recently scuttled Moynihan Station project said he is confident that construction will soon begin on an even larger alternative plan that involves building a new Madison Square Garden inside the Farley Post Office building, renovating Penn Station, and erecting office towers in the surrounding area.

At a real estate conference yesterday, billionaire developer Stephen Ross of the Related Companies said strong support from Mayor Bloomberg's office and the incoming Spitzer administration would lead to final approval of the megaproject next year, and that construction on a new arena would begin in early 2008. Mr. Ross would partner with Vornado Realty Trust. The project is expected to cost billions, including more than an estimated $1 billion in public subsidies, and take years to complete.

The 10 million square feet of office space in the plan is more than is planned for ground zero and would dramatically refashion a Manhattan neighborhood that, with the exception of One Penn Plaza, has long been known more for retail and fast food than for class A office space.

After nearly a decade of planning, Governor Pataki's $900 million Moynihan Station project, which would have transformed the eastern half of the landmarked Farley Post Office building into a transit hub to relieve congestion at Penn Station, was effectively killed last month by the Assembly speaker, Sheldon Silver.

Mr. Silver, a Democrat, said that he preferred Vornado and Related's more ambitious plan, but top state officials said that Mr. Silver's rejection was politically motivated, to give the incoming Spitzer administration the chance to take credit for the project. Pataki officials, mad at Mr. Silver, threatened to scuttle existing agreements with the developers and force the next administration to start from scratch, but so far they have not moved to do so. They said that any reincarnation would take years to complete.

Pataki administration officials said yesterday that Mr. Ross's projections for beginning redevelopment of about four full city blocks about are wildly optimistic. They said that negotiating an agreement between public and private entities, producing concrete design and financing plans, arranging for public subsidies, conducting additional environmental tests and acquiring necessary approvals would take a lot longer than Mr. Ross predicted.

The president of the Moynihan Development Corporation, Robin Stout, said in a statement that the delay caused by Mr. Silver's vote "injected considerable risk and uncertainty both legally and financially to a project that in no way precluded the larger goal of incorporating Madison Square Garden into the plans."

Another hurdle to the project is an ongoing impasse between the city and Madison Square Garden about a $10 million a year tax break that the Garden wants to transfer across the street to their new location. The Bloomberg administration has said they are unwilling to transfer the tax break, which was doled out in the early 1980s when the arena's owners threatened to move the venue out of the city.

A spokesman for Madison Square Garden, Barry Watkins, said in a statement yesterday that there has been "considerable activity regarding the possibility of Madison Square Garden moving to the Farley building in order to determine if it is preferable to our completed renovation plan."

Governor-elect Spitzer is now active in moving the Penn Station project forward, and sources said that he could seek a resolution to the current impasse in his first 100 days in office. Mr. Spitzer has named a member of his transition team, Patrick Foye, a lawyer, to work on the plan and convene meetings with the major players, according to sources familiar with the project.

A spokeswoman for Mr. Spitzer, Christine Anderson, said yesterday, "Eliot has asked his transition team to review options for Moynihan Station and other infrastructure projects."

The president of the Partnership for New York City, Kathryn Wylde, said that Mr. Ross's timetable was reasonable because the project enjoys widespread support among the government and civic groups.

"Aside from very few naysayers that are worried in the preservation community about MSG overshadowing the Post Office building, there is very broad based support for the plan going forward," Ms. Wylde said.

Yesterday, Mr. Ross, of Related, rejected the idea that there would be a shortage of office space anytime soon in Manhattan. He said that there would be about 10 million square feet of new office space developed around Penn Station, more than is currently planned for the former World Trade Center site.

Vornado has bought up much of the real estate around the Garden over the past 10 years. The company's chairman, Steven Roth, has said the plan would generate "$1.2 billion in value creation," from the higher rents Vornado would command on nearly 7 million square feet of property in the near vicinity

Never. There is a general antipathy to mega-tall buildings in NY. 1,200 to 1,400 feet is as tall as these will rise.

Says you. It's absurd to think that NY won't have at least one 1,700'+ building (excluding 1WTC) by 2015/16. To add, it's fact that this plan calls for buildings that will be over 1,400' tall. Anyway, I'm not sure that they are going to be exact twins right now, but I guess seeing the title of this thread is getting to me.


It's definitely real. The developer is one of the biggest in the City and has unlimited funds. Also, the proposal includes not only the twins, but 2 other towers that will be about 900 feet tall each.

Thank you for pointing out the other towers.

2 times 1400 ft and 2 of 900 ft is an incredible project :shocked:
can't wait to see the renders.

Think about how they will look like from the ESB obervatory...... :eek:

EXCELENT PROJECT

this is going to be awesome :banana: :banana:

Great! Hope it gets approved!

me too hope that will happen soon :) this will be great for NY

gah! no more 900-footers! Come on, NY is like the master of spires, stretch it 100 feet more!

But yeah, this is sounding like a serious complex. Go NY.:banana:

I have to say I think it is good we need more office space becuase this means even a larger skyline for the city even though we could also lose it to Jersey or any other suburbs.

It's that for real? Looking great! Let's wait for the renders.. but I know that NYC won't disappoint us :)

I have to say I think it is good we need more office space becuase this means even a larger skyline for the city even though we could also lose it to Jersey or any other suburbs. Are the burbs or Jersey Prime spots? Manhattan is the desired location.

WHY IS THIS THREAD HERE?? this is a proposal....nothing under construction yet..or for a lonnnnnnnnnnnnnng time....

Cant wait to see this! I have always wanted to see some supertalls in midtown other then the ESB.

WHY IS THIS THREAD HERE?? this is a proposal....nothing under construction yet..or for a lonnnnnnnnnnnnnng time....

This isn't a construction forum, it's a supertall forum, all projects, no matter what stage they are at, are put here.

this is a great project with a horrible location in my opinion. i think they should go downtown or something, not this close to overshadowing the ESB. personally, some may disagree, but i dont think midtown is ready for that yet.

They're all over 50 floors tall (the Conde Nast Building is not a 1000' footer because it doesn't have a spire). The same goes for the ESB and maybe 2 and 3.

So including these new towers, New York could potentially have 11 supertalls by pinnacle height within the next few years...

http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?28411971

This is the comment I was quoting...Claiming 11 supertalls??? If these 2 are constructed then I might say NYC has 6 or 7. But claiming 11 seems a little much when Bank of America is 53 stories. 80 South Street is 56 and NY Times Headquarters is 52. I think it almost a stretch to call The Chrysler Building a supertall. IMO

Can't wait to see the renders. Thought NY is dead and no new skyscrapers will come the next 10 years. But now. :omg: WOW!!! Go on NY!!!

Can't wait to see the renders. Thought NY is dead and no new skyscrapers will come the next 10 years. But now. :omg: WOW!!! Go on NY!!!

There are probably 50 towers of 30 stories or more under construction (or about to start constuction ) in Manhattan right now.

Can't wait to see the renders. Thought NY is dead and no new skyscrapers will come the next 10 years. But now. :omg: WOW!!! Go on NY!!!

Take a pill dude! Remember, this is "proposed" and in NYC. My kids are 10 and 13 so I figure at the rate things happen in NYC I'll take my grandchildren to the groundbreaking.

Take a pill dude! Remember, this is "proposed" and in NYC. My kids are 10 and 13 so I figure at the rate things happen in NYC I'll take my grandchildren to the groundbreaking.

I doubt it. Vornado has invested a lot of money in this development. The city sorely needs new space, and the city and state support the development. Vornado already stated that they expect to start the project in 2008.

This is the comment I was quoting...Claiming 11 supertalls??? If these 2 are constructed then I might say NYC has 6 or 7. But claiming 11 seems a little much when Bank of America is 53 stories. 80 South Street is 56 and NY Times Headquarters is 52. I think it almost a stretch to call The Chrysler Building a supertall. IMO

floor count doesn't determine if building is supertall or not. but when i look at that diagram i see 4 supertalls. i don't count the spires.

floor count doesn't determine if building is supertall or not. but when i look at that diagram i see 4 supertalls. i don't count the spires.

My point exactly. A 50 story/700 ft. building with a 200-300 ft. spire isn't a "supertall" in my book.

My point exactly. A 50 story/700 ft. building with a 200-300 ft. spire isn't a "supertall" in my book.

And no building except the NYT expresses that. The CB and BoA's roofs are well over 900 feet tall. 80SS is so damn unique and daring that you just have to let is slide by (even though its roof is over 800'). Everything else has roofs that are well over 1000' tall. Even if you define a supertall as "a building with a roof over 1,000' tall," I'd still be willing to bet that NYC will have at least a dozen by 2017, let alone everything else.

Nice concept, but who needs it?

With the economy entering a slump, I doubt there will be the kind of demand for additional office space to mandate the construction of such an enormous project. Class A office vacancy in Manhattan is about 6%. New WTC, alone, will more than meet the increase in demand for class A office space over the next five years. The Midtown Towers project, realistically, will likely be downscaled, delayed, or abandoned altogether.

Personally, I would like to see it built--it would be a nice addition to the aging skyline.

Nice concept, but who needs it?

you can probably post that line in all of the threads in 75% of the Supertall forum. :nuts:

Nice concept, but who needs it?

With the economy entering a slump, I doubt there will be the kind of demand for additional office space to mandate the construction of such an enormous project. Class A office vacancy in Manhattan is about 6%. New WTC, alone, will more than meet the increase in demand for class A office space over the next five years. The Midtown Towers project, realistically, will likely be downscaled, delayed, or abandoned altogether.

Personally, I would like to see it built--it would be a nice addition to the aging skyline.

NY has an extreme demand for new space. This is urgently needed. All new towers that are built fill up instantly. Of the 15 or so 50+ story office towers completed since 2000, all are full. In fact, an article in the June 18, 2007 edition of Crains noted that Class A space is so tight in NY that it's now priced at $150 s/f in prime locations. No US city comes remotely close to that.

Nice concept, but who needs it?

With the economy entering a slump, I doubt there will be the kind of demand for additional office space to mandate the construction of such an enormous project.

I don't know what kind of economic news you follow. The economy is actually doing quite well. In fact, there is more concern about keeping to economy from overheating than about it being in a slump. The US GDP is expected to grow at a rate of 4% this quarter, which is very strong. Many other countries are also experiencing strong growth (hence the increase in interest rates all over the world), which spills over into yet other countries, including here in the US. IMO, the economy is doing very, very well. Yes, there is a scare in the housing market, but the office real estate market is doing very well, especially in NYC. They could use this office space right now, let alone after how many years it would take to complete this project. When projects take this long, they have to build it in anticipation of future needs anyway.

On a different note, is anyone familiar with any of Vornado's other projects? What is his success rate? And how familiar is he with NY real estate development? That would probably give us a good idea of how solid of a proposal this is.

Either way, I think this is great news! I like the ESB, but it will still have its place. After all, Jin Mao still looks great in Shanghai even though it is being passed by SWFC.

Besides, its pretty obvious that this proposal had undergone a very detailed feasibility study, many factors go to the study. And there are sub-local factors to consider. Can't wait for the renders!

i think we should wait to see the renderings before we get 2 exited about this. who knows? they could be ugly as hell (i hope they're not, but still who knows?)

I don't know what kind of economic news you follow. The economy is actually doing quite well. In fact, there is more concern about keeping to economy from overheating than about it being in a slump. The US GDP is expected to grow at a rate of 4% this quarter, which is very strong.

^^I follow the Wall Street Journal and The Economist. If you know of better sources for economic news, please let me know. According to recent estimates, real US GDP growth for 2007 will be 1.9%, the lowest rate since the 2001-2002 recession. http://www.economist.com/countries/USA/profile.cfm?folder=Profile-Forecast

The current shortage of office space in Manhattan is not so much the result of recent economic growth, but rather the result of relatively anemic construction activity in NYC from 1993-2000, when the economy was booming. The current shortage of office space, however, will likely be corrected within 5 to 6 years as massive new office developments, currently under construction, become available for leasing.

I think these (ie. the current supertall developments) will be the last major developments in NY for a while when the economic stumble inevitably does come. How much debt is America in now? Does this have to be paid back at any point? Does this relate to the US economy?

As a fan of skyscrapers and not politics i'd like NY to carry on with the iconic evolving skyline well into the future but i think there will be a hault as a result of the national economy at some point not to long off as i think these two factors are directly related.

^^I follow the Wall Street Journal and The Economist. If you know of better sources for economic news, please let me know. According to recent estimates, real US GDP growth for 2007 will be 1.9%, the lowest rate since the 2001-2002 recession. http://www.economist.com/countries/USA/profile.cfm?folder=Profile-Forecast

The current shortage of office space in Manhattan is not so much the result of recent economic growth, but rather the result of relatively anemic construction activity in NYC from 1993-2000, when the economy was booming. The current shortage of office space, however, will likely be corrected within 5 to 6 years as massive new office developments, currently under construction, become available for leasing.


I am a New Yorker, and your statements are incorrect. More 50+ story office towers have been built in NY since 1993 than most cities have on their entire skyline. NY has an intense need for space. In addition to Wall Street, NY has WAY, WAY more Fortune 500 companies than any other American city, and it is practically the only US city that serves as US headquaters for foreign corporations. NY's demand for office space is unmatched by any other US city. The Bank of America Tower, for example, had over 1,000,000 s.f. that was not claimed by the B of A when the project was announced, and that space filled rapidly at $150 s.f. The building is now fully leased. The same holds true for buildings that have not even started construction at other sites in Manhattan. In fact, banks and other tenants are already lined up for the WTC buildings.

NY's commercial and residential property markets are unique. No US city has apartments that sell for $6,000/s.f., and office space that rents at $150/s.f.

...
On a different note, is anyone familiar with any of Vornado's other projects? What is his success rate? And how familiar is he with NY real estate development? That would probably give us a good idea of how solid of a proposal this is....

Vornado Realty Trust is one of the largest property owners and developers in the US, and its shares are traded publicly on the NYSE. Check out its website: www.vno.com.

Also, Vornado owns not only many major office buildings near MSG but scores of small buildings that it is assembling into larger development sites. The value of those other properties will soar when this project is completed.

I don't like it period. It just seems so out of place. And for it to be twin towers it looks like it should be at WTC not in Midtown Manhattan. To me it really doesn't look right.

^^ How can you say that when you haven't even seen the design?

ooooooohhhhhhhhhhh thats not it on those other pages!!!! oops!...I did it again

^^ Yes that render was made by someone over on SSP to show how much of an impact they'd have, that's all.

I think these (ie. the current supertall developments) will be the last major developments in NY for a while when the economic stumble inevitably does come.
.

yeeeah. well at least NYC is bold enough to have actually proposed these while rebuilding the entire WTC, as well as numerous towers... can I ask you, what credibility do you have in predicting the long-term national economy?

"Cablevision Nears Deal to Change Site of Madison Square Garden"
March 08, 2006

By Alex Frangos
From The Wall Street Journal Online

NEW YORK -- Sports landmark Madison Square Garden will be demolished and relocated under a tentative agreement signed by Cablevision Systems Corp., paving the way for more than $3 billion in real-estate development that will include a new train station, office towers and shops in the heart of Manhattan.

According to people familiar with the matter, MSG, a Cablevision subsidiary, signed a nonbinding memorandum of understanding several weeks ago with Vornado Realty Trust, a publicly traded New York real-estate investment trust, and Related Cos., a private developer, to build the new arena.

Exact terms of the deal weren't disclosed, but it would involve the parties agreeing to develop office towers where the current Madison Square Garden stands and rebuilding the arena a block away from its present site above Pennsylvania Station, New York's busiest commuter rail hub and a gateway for hundreds of thousands of workers, business travelers and tourists.

Vornado and Related won a contract last year from New York State to convert the historic James A. Farley Post Office -- across the street from the current Penn Station -- into a new commuter rail station, shopping and commercial space. The move has been widely talked about for weeks. The memorandum was earlier reported in Crain's New York Business. All parties declined to comment. The pact isn't finalized.

The deal could create a windfall for Cablevision, of Bethpage, N.Y., and the real-estate developers. Shares of Vornado Realty Trust, which has been buying property in the area for years, rose on the reports. As of 4 p.m. in composite trading on the New York Stock Exchange, Vornado was at $91.12, up $1.68. Cablevision was at $26.50, up 10 cents, also on the Big Board.

Vornado, headed by real-estate heavyweight Steven Roth, has long coveted the current MSG site. Vornado owns several adjacent properties. Mr. Roth has said that his company realizes higher profits by owning clusters of properties because improvements to one building benefit the others. Related Cos., a politically connected New York developer, is well-known for tackling complicated mixed-use urban projects.

Another beneficiary of the deal could be Brookfield Properties Corp., a publicly traded real-estate company based in Toronto that owns a large plot across the street from where the new MSG will go. It has plans for a 2.5 million-square-foot mixed-use project there.

The transaction, if completed, means that, for the fifth time in its history, the New York arena is slated to be rebuilt. The original Madison Square Garden was built in 1874 in a converted train station at Madison Square, near Broadway and 23rd St. Architect Stanford White rebuilt the venue 10 years later, and it became a premier venue for boxing. In 1925, a new Madison Square Garden was built on 50th Street. In the mid-1960s, Pennsylvania Station was razed to make way for yet another MSG.

Email your comments to rjeditor@dowjones.com.

March 08, 2006

"Cablevision Nears Deal to Change Site of Madison Square Garden"
March 08, 2006

By Alex Frangos
From The Wall Street Journal Online

NEW YORK -- Sports landmark Madison Square Garden will be demolished and relocated under a tentative agreement signed by Cablevision Systems Corp., paving the way for more than $3 billion in real-estate development that will include a new train station, office towers and shops in the heart of Manhattan.

According to people familiar with the matter, MSG, a Cablevision subsidiary, signed a nonbinding memorandum of understanding several weeks ago with Vornado Realty Trust, a publicly traded New York real-estate investment trust, and Related Cos., a private developer, to build the new arena.

Exact terms of the deal weren't disclosed, but it would involve the parties agreeing to develop office towers where the current Madison Square Garden stands and rebuilding the arena a block away from its present site above Pennsylvania Station, New York's busiest commuter rail hub and a gateway for hundreds of thousands of workers, business travelers and tourists.

Vornado and Related won a contract last year from New York State to convert the historic James A. Farley Post Office -- across the street from the current Penn Station -- into a new commuter rail station, shopping and commercial space. The move has been widely talked about for weeks. The memorandum was earlier reported in Crain's New York Business. All parties declined to comment. The pact isn't finalized.

The deal could create a windfall for Cablevision, of Bethpage, N.Y., and the real-estate developers. Shares of Vornado Realty Trust, which has been buying property in the area for years, rose on the reports. As of 4 p.m. in composite trading on the New York Stock Exchange, Vornado was at $91.12, up $1.68. Cablevision was at $26.50, up 10 cents, also on the Big Board.

Vornado, headed by real-estate heavyweight Steven Roth, has long coveted the current MSG site. Vornado owns several adjacent properties. Mr. Roth has said that his company realizes higher profits by owning clusters of properties because improvements to one building benefit the others. Related Cos., a politically connected New York developer, is well-known for tackling complicated mixed-use urban projects.

Another beneficiary of the deal could be Brookfield Properties Corp., a publicly traded real-estate company based in Toronto that owns a large plot across the street from where the new MSG will go. It has plans for a 2.5 million-square-foot mixed-use project there.

The transaction, if completed, means that, for the fifth time in its history, the New York arena is slated to be rebuilt. The original Madison Square Garden was built in 1874 in a converted train station at Madison Square, near Broadway and 23rd St. Architect Stanford White rebuilt the venue 10 years later, and it became a premier venue for boxing. In 1925, a new Madison Square Garden was built on 50th Street. In the mid-1960s, Pennsylvania Station was razed to make way for yet another MSG.

Email your comments to rjeditor@dowjones.com.

March 08, 2006

Hmmmm 4 new superbuildings :D Nice realy realy nice :D

Does anyone know what 1400 Feet and 900 Feet mean? Does it mean Meters??? or what or else i am cheering in uber delight off 2 towers each 1400 meters and 900 meters tall!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers :cheers:

How old are you?

1 foot = 0.3048 meters

So, to make it easier for you... 1400ft=427m and 900ft=274m

Btw... it's in the title of the thread as well.

1400 meters... lol that'd be awesome

I think these (ie. the current supertall developments) will be the last major developments in NY for a while when the economic stumble inevitably does come. How much debt is America in now? Does this have to be paid back at any point? Does this relate to the US economy?

As a fan of skyscrapers and not politics i'd like NY to carry on with the iconic evolving skyline well into the future but i think there will be a hault as a result of the national economy at some point not to long off as i think these two factors are directly related.

Sounds like wishful thinking. We've been doing it the longest, we will be doing it longer. Look at every decade.. maybe not the late 40's and early 50's, we've been adding on something every era.

1400 meters... lol that'd be awesome

No. 1,400 feet.

Over 1,400 feet! :)

I am a New Yorker, and your statements are incorrect. More 50+ story office towers have been built in NY since 1993 than most cities have on their entire skyline.

^^ You are right. In fact, most cities don't even have a skyline, much less 50+ storey high-rise towers. I am not comparing NYC with other cities, but rather NYC from 1993-2000 vs. NYC from 1985-1992, etc. The fluctuations in construction activity within a given city can be quite dramatic.

Here is the raw data for New York City:

Number of additional high-rises built with 50+ floors*:

<1929: 2

1929-1936: 11

1937-1944: 0

1945-1952: 0

1953-1960: 1

1961-1968: 6

1969-1976: 14 (including WTC 1&2)

1977-1984: 4

1985-1992: 24 :eek:

1993-2000: 3 (slowest pace since the 1950s)

2001-2007**: 12

*All data was acquired from the SSP information database.:)
**Jan-May, 2007.

NYC - 1900-2007*: 77 (75 standing + WTC 1&2)

USA - 1900-2007*: 199 (197 standing + WTC 1&2)

Today, 38% (75/197) of all standing 50+ storey high-rises in the USA are in New York City.

^^ You are right. In fact, most cities don't even have a skyline, much less 50+ storey high-rise towers. I am not comparing NYC with other cities, but rather NYC from 1993-2000 vs. NYC from 1985-1992, etc. The fluctuations in construction activity within a given city can be quite dramatic.

Here is the raw data for New York City:

Number of additional high-rises built with 50+ floors*:

<1929: 2

1929-1936: 11

1937-1944: 0

1945-1952: 0

1953-1960: 1

1961-1968: 6

1969-1976: 14 (including WTC 1&2)

1977-1984: 4

1985-1992: 24 :eek:

1993-2000: 3 (slowest pace since the 1950s)

2001-2007**: 12

*All data was acquired from the SSP information database.:)
**Jan-May, 2007.

NYC - 1900-2007*: 77 (75 standing + WTC 1&2)

USA - 1900-2007*: 199 (197 standing + WTC 1&2)

Today, 38% (75/197) of all standing 50+ storey high-rises in the USA are in New York City.


That information is wrong. 50 story buildings go up constantly in Manhattan and are largely unnoticed.

^^
I challenge ANYONE to name more than 75 high-rise buildings in all of New York City with 50+ storeys.:cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

According to Emporis Buildings, there are currently 73 completed high-rise buildings (with 50 or more floors) within the city limits of New York City. http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/bu/sk/li/?id=101028&bt=9&ht=2&sro=1
:tiasd:

If EMPORIS isn't good enough, what is? What is your evidence to prove my list incorrect? BRING IT ON! :guns1:

^^
I challenge ANYONE to name more than 75 high-rise buildings in all of New York City with 50+ storeys.:cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

According to Emporis Buildings, there are currently 73 completed high-rise buildings (with 50 or more floors)within the city limits of New York City.
:tiasd:

If EMPORIS isn't good enough, what is? What is your evidence to prove my list incorrect? BRING IT ON! :guns1:

I live here. I see the buildings constantly under construction.

^^
I challenge ANYONE to name more than 75 high-rise buildings in all of New York City with 50+ storeys.:cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

According to Emporis Buildings, there are currently 73 completed high-rise buildings (with 50 or more floors) within the city limits of New York City. http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/bu/sk/li/?id=101028&bt=9&ht=2&sro=1
:tiasd:

If EMPORIS isn't good enough, what is? What is your evidence to prove my list incorrect? BRING IT ON! :guns1:



I counted 76 (+-1) completed skyscrapers in NYC with 50 or more floors on SSP. I bet it will be over 100 by 2012.

I live here. I see the buildings constantly under construction.

I trust that you keep track of construction activities in NYC. I am not challenging your perceptive abilities. I'm simply trying to get the facts straight on a matter that is statistically documented. Unless I’m mistaken, there are no secrets regarding the number of floors in currently-standing New York high-rises. This is public information that is recorded for very practical purposes.

Sometimes sensory perception is not the most reliable source for information on the world that surrounds us--and that's why I turn to the experts.

I trust that you keep track of construction activities in NYC. I am not challenging your perceptive abilities. I'm simply trying to get the facts straight on a matter that is statistically documented. Unless I’m mistaken, there are no secrets regarding the number of floors in currently-standing New York high-rises. This is public information that is recorded for very practical purposes.

Sometimes sensory perception is not the most reliable source for information on the world that surrounds us--and that's why I turn to the experts.

Who knows? Maybe some of the countless buildings that I see under construction are 40 stories -- not 50. All I can say is that they are everywhere.

Now that I thought about it, I'm sure that we'll have over 100 buildings with 50 or more floors soon. Think about it: there has to be about 10/11 50+ story towers u/c and approved in DT. Bring Midtown and the other boroughs in and you have at least another 10. Add the mega projects (maybe you don't even have to), such as this one and Hudson Center, and bam, you have well over 100 towers with 50&+ floors!

The following is from the 8-K report that Vornado filed with the US SEC:


UNITED STATES SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION

Washington, D.C. 20549

FORM 8-K

PURSUANT TO SECTION 13 OR 15(d) OF THE SECURITIES EXCHANGE ACT OF 1934

April 26, 2007

VORNADO REALTY TRUST

.....
Development/Redevelopment

Ground-up development, redevelopment and repositioning are essential and differentiating skills of our business. Our pipeline is huge and runs the gamut from the multi-billion dollar Penn Plaza district transformation (Farley/Moynihan Station/Madison Square Garden relocation/Penn Station/ Hotel Pennsylvania) to District of Columbia new-builds to the Bergen and Springfield mall mega fixer-uppers to dozens of other projects, see Appendix III for project-by-project detail.

Farley Update —We and our partner, the Related Companies, have been designated developer to convert the Farley Post Office Building, which occupies the super block between 31st and 33rd Streets from 8th to 9th Avenues, to the Moynihan Train Station. This project has been expanded to incorporate the adjacent super block to the east and will now involve relocating Madison Square Garden to the 9th Avenue side of Farley (to be developed and owned by MSG), permitting us to develop on the old Madison Square Garden site a great, soaring Penn Station, 5.5 million square feet of mixed-use new-builds, and incorporating our existing 1.5 million square foot Two Penn Plaza into a 7 million square foot complex. This long-term project has been publicly endorsed by City and State officials and is now in the approval process. The joint venture is working hard on documentation, design, budgets, etc. A giant step forward was taken on March 30, 2007 when New York’s Empire State Development Corporation completed the acquisition of the Farley building from the United States Postal Service. Vornado assets surround this project—One Penn Plaza, Two Penn Plaza, 11 Penn Plaza, Hotel Pennsylvania and various retail properties. As with all development projects, there may be significant scope changes and there can be no assurance that this project will commence, or if commenced, be completed on schedule or within budget.

We have gone back and forth regarding the organizational benefits of having a centralized development function or a decentralized one. It appears the latter has won out—Mitchell and Sandeep really do want to manage the approvals, design, budget and execution of the projects for which we hold them responsible. David is overseeing all New York development projects. Special thanks this year to Barry Langer and Sandy Reis.

I cant believe it! 136 posts and still no pics!!!!! (137 now!) Sooooo frustrating!

There probably won't be any either for a very long time. But, I'm hoping they prove me wrong. :cheers:

There probably won't be any either for a very long time. But, I'm hoping they prove me wrong. :cheers:

I'll bet we'll see renderings within a few months. Vornado plans to start construction in 2008.

Regaurdless of 50 + stories... there are more here than anywhere in this country.. even 40 stories, 30 stories is a dream for some places, for us, it's nothing. 78 buildings or 76 buildings over 50 stories... show me anywhere else in this country that match that.

I'll bet we'll see renderings within a few months. Vornado plans to start construction in 2008.

To me, that's an eternity. This proposal has so much potential.:nuts:

To me, that's an eternity. This proposal has so much potential.:nuts:

It's a very complex project. The first thing that must happen is for the new Madison Square Garden to be built. Once that occurs, demolition of the existing Garden can occur and construction of the mega-towers on the site can start. However, construction of the other two 900 foot towers can occur while the Garden is still in its current location since they will be on the periphery of the site.

Regaurdless of 50 + stories... there are more here than anywhere in this country.. even 40 stories, 30 stories is a dream for some places, for us, it's nothing. 78 buildings or 76 buildings over 50 stories... show me anywhere else in this country that match that.

You're right. When it comes to buildings with 50+ stories, no other US city even comes close. Hong Kong is probably the only city in the world right now with more such buildings (about 173 completed).

USA - TOP TEN CITIES (# of high-rises with 50+ floors):

New York: 75
Chicago: 46
Houston: 12
Los Angeles: 10
Dallas: 10
Atlanta: 8
Seattle: 5
Philadelphia: 4
Minneapolis: 4
Miami: 4

and counting.

I was thinking of a building's height in feet -- not the number of floors. NY currently has 186 buildings of 500 feet or more, which I consider the equivalent of a 50 story tower.

NY has 356 buildings of 400 feet or more. That obviously utterly blows away every city in the world other than HK.

HK has 9 more buildings that reach 500 feet for a total of 195.

HK is the coolest skyscraper city outta America, but I don't think it be holding the record for most skyscrapers much longer. :) NY is sure to take back her title soon.

The first building to be built will be on the current site of the Hotel Pennsylvania. From what Ive read the hotel will be coming down soon and Meryll Lynch is in talks with Voronado about leasing a significant part of the building.

The first building to be built will be on the current site of the Hotel Pennsylvania. From what Ive read the hotel will be coming down soon and Meryll Lynch is in talks with Voronado about leasing a significant part of the building.

That tower is not among the four on the site that have been discussed, however. It's my understanding that the two 1,400 foot towers will rise on MSG's location. One will rise on the corner of 34th and 8th, and one will rise on the corner of 34th and 7th where Tourneau and some other stores are located. A fifth Vornado tower will rise on the Hotel Penn site across the street.

So there may be 5 new towers in the same area?

-2x 1,400+
-1x around 1,100'+ (I bet the Penn site tower will be around 1,200' b/c I think it has trading floors and has as much space as 2WTC)
-2x around 900'

So there may be 5 new towers in the same area?

-2x 1,400+
-1x around 1,100'+ (I bet the Penn site tower will be around 1,200' b/c I think it has trading floors and has as much space as 2WTC)
-2x around 900'

You must remember Ebola that the Brookfield site is being proposed next door to the two 1400 ft towers, two 900 ft towers and the Hotel Penn tower all within a stones throw of one another. The MSG area will Trump the WTC site quite easily in my opinion.

So you have all of that, the Brookfield site like you said, and the WestSide mega-project (which will best the WTC too!) w/ its towers too, which will be the 4th largest CBD in America. NY will stun the world.

And I would have been in bliss if one building in Midtown with a roof height of over 1,000 feet was proposed. I'm about to enter shock.

So there may be 5 new towers in the same area?

-2x 1,400+
-1x around 1,100'+ (I bet the Penn site tower will be around 1,200' b/c I think it has trading floors and has as much space as 2WTC)
-2x around 900'

5 for now, but many more to follow. See Jack Napier's post.

Whats the cut-off height/floor limit for a building to be called a skyscraper?

Read the previous posts. If you were actually to take the time out and search for all of the buildings with more than 50 floors/500 feet u/c/proposed/in development, you'd have at least 30 skyscrapers. That's not counting the supertalls of the WTC, and other mega-projects, like this one.


http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/351/ae0bff8bc6e465faef31cf9np1.jpg

I wish I knew what the skyline will look like in 10 years. The Empire State Building will not be alone anymore...

^^ what project is that ebola?

The towers in the middle of the ESB and green towers would be this project I guess, and the big green ones would be the Westside megadevelopment. They will increase in height the closer inland they go.

Westside megadevelopment That is approved?

I'm not up to date on the project. The city wants to build massive platforms over the tracks and encourage developers to build skyscrapers on top of that. They've been buying out smaller buildings to clear the way, so I guess it's going.

thanks ebola ;) <3

thanks ebola ;) <3

All of these new massive projects will be right next to each other, so there will be a cluster of skyscrapers that will make the New WTC whimper.

http://massengale.typepad.com/venustas/images/absolutpenn.jpg

^"If completed as planned, the Hudson Yards area would constitute the fourth largest central business district in the United States, after midtown Manhattan, the Chicago Loop, and downtown Manhattan."

That's insane. It could mean building the Los Angeles skyline on Manhattan Island.

WHat are the odds of those projects being approved/completed though?

WHat are the odds of those projects being approved/completed though?

They will all be completed. There's a severe shortage of office space, residential structures and hotels in NYC.

when do they go for approval? They should have their own threads...

Not yet because we don't even have renderings or heights. We'll have to be patient; one by one, supertalls will come.

Read the previous posts. If you were actually to take the time out and search for all of the buildings with more than 50 floors/500 feet u/c/proposed/in development, you'd have at least 30 skyscrapers. That's not counting the supertalls of the WTC, and other mega-projects, like this one.


http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/351/ae0bff8bc6e465faef31cf9np1.jpg

I wish I knew what the skyline will look like in 10 years. The Empire State Building will not be alone anymore...
wow how tall are they?

It's not official. Like I said, we don't know yet. All we know is that there will be a lot of tall buildings, a modern Rockefeller Center on steroids:

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/536/20070507hymainor7.jpg

The project discussed in this thread will be behind it all.

oh.. Anyway thank you.. I hope they get built

It's not official. Like I said, we don't know yet. All we know is that there will be a lot of tall buildings, a modern Rockefeller Center on steroids:

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/536/20070507hymainor7.jpg

The project discussed in this thread will be behind it all.

wait a minute...

are they gonna build those buildings over the Rail Yards?

or they are gonna get rid of the rail yards and then build those buildings?

wait a minute...

are they gonna build those buildings over the Rail Yards?

or they are gonna get rid of the rail yards and then build those buildings?

Over the rail yards. And they can't shut down the rail yards during construction, so it will be a tricky project.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/2870/msg2ww7.jpg

the towers circled in red are the MSG and surrounding projects

^That's right.


In a few years, the amount of building in NYC will be equivalent to more than 20 Empire State Buildings going up at the same time.

cool a modern NY we'll have to see this one too :yes:

Building them OVER rail yards... sounds like some tricky construction. I can't wait to see these towers rise...

Only off by $1B on new Penn Station

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BY BRIAN KATES
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

Thursday, June 28th 2007, 4:00 AM


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Print Email Suggest a Story
The projected cost of building a new Penn Station where Madison Square Garden now stands is "probably significantly higher than $1 billion," the state's economic development czar told the Daily News yesterday.

"We don't know how high it is," said Pat Foye, the economic development chief. But sources in the Empire State Development Corp. suggested the cost could rise above $2 billion.

Initial estimates had put the cost at under $900 million.

The latest plans call for knocking down the Garden and building an arena across Eighth Ave. in the western part of the U.S. Postal Service's Farley building.

The new rail hub would be built on both sites, with the post office keeping its famous neoclassic facade, Foye said in a meeting with the Daily News Editorial Board.

The developers are Steven Roth of Vornado Realty Trust and Stephen Ross of The Related Companies. The entire project, which includes two office and retail towers on the existing Garden site, could cost a reported $14 billion.

"The source of the funding [for the station's public space] is primarily going to be federal, with developer contributions," Foye said.

bkates@nydailynews.com

What? They are going to take out the Garden???!!??!! They shouldn't do that...

^ I'm pretty sure that was the plan from the beginning.

whats the latest with this project?

Huge complex

From The New York Times:

New Grandeur for Penn Station in Latest Plan
By CHARLES V. BAGLI
Published: July 4, 2007

It began as a proposal to restore the Beaux-Arts grandeur of the old Pennsylvania Station. It grew into a sweeping plan to transform the area around the station into a district of gleaming office towers. Now it is growing again.

In the next three weeks, two of the city’s largest developers will unveil new plans for rebuilding the station, moving Madison Square Garden, replacing the Hotel Pennsylvania, and erecting a pair of skyscrapers, one of which would be taller than the Empire State Building, over the site of the existing station.

Though the new plan is broadly similar to a proposal offered a year ago, it is different in several important ways, starting with the cost: $14 billion, double that of the original plan, a real estate executive who has seen the plan said. It is also bigger than anticipated: the entire plan, involving buildings on six adjacent blocks, would create 10 million square feet of new office space off West 33rd Street, as much as in the old World Trade Center.

The developers, Stephen M. Ross and Steven Roth, have also burnished their vision for the station, which would be renamed after Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, who championed the original idea. Civic groups and the head of the City Planning Commission, Amanda M. Burden, had complained that last year’s plan treated the underground station as an afterthought, without a grand public space worthy of the country’s busiest transit hub.

The new plan would try to recapture the imposing aura of the original station inside the James A. Farley Post Office across the street, with a vast, street-level waiting room under a glass canopy that would spill sunlight onto the concourse two levels below.

In the next three weeks, the public will get its first, albeit sketchy, look at the new plan when the Spitzer administration takes the first step in an environmental review of the project’s potential impact on the neighborhood.

“It’s a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, and I think the stars are aligned to do this,” said Patrick J. Foye, co-chairman of the Empire State Development Corporation, the state authority overseeing the project.
It is far from a done deal.

Despite progress on the designs and numerous meetings with officials from Amtrak, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, New Jersey Transit, the Long Island Rail Road and the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, the developers do not have a definitive agreement with the various transportation agencies.

The developers also have yet to hammer out a final deal with the owners of Madison Square Garden, Cablevision and the Dolan family, to move the Garden to the western part of the Farley building, which would be the arena’s fifth home in 132 years. The two sides have a nonbinding agreement.

More important, the estimated cost of renovating the station has also doubled, to $2 billion, and no one knows who will pay. Compounding the problem, another state project, the expansion of the nearby Jacob K. Javits Convention Center, has also doubled in cost, to $4 billion. And state officials have warned that the proposed renovations of the Farley building may not qualify for $225 million in federal tax credits they want.

Proponents contend that the Moynihan Station project has an important benefit that justifies using public dollars: a new transportation hub that would form a monumental gateway to the city. But civic groups have also argued that the developers should shoulder a substantial portion of the cost of renovating the station because it would make their property far more valuable.

Mr. Roth, the chairman of Vornado Realty Trust, and Mr. Ross, chief executive of the Related Companies, would build 5.5 million square feet of office and retail space on the current site of Madison Square Garden, on Eighth Avenue between 31st and 33rd Streets. If it were approved, they would also build a two million-square-foot tower at the southwest corner of Seventh Avenue and 34th Street, using development rights from the post office building.

In addition, Mr. Roth’s company plans to demolish the Hotel Pennsylvania, across Seventh Avenue from Madison Square Garden, to make way for a 2.5 million-square-foot building. Real estate executives and urban planners say that if the plan reaches fruition, Vornado, which already owns about seven million square feet in the neighborhood, will dominate one district like no other landlord in the city.

“Given the magnitude of the project and the wealth which could be created for the developers,” Mr. Foye said, “we expect them to make a significant contribution to the cost of the train station.”

So far, the developers have said only that government should pay for the station.

“The project,” said Vishaan Chakrabarti, a vice president of Related, “will unlock billions of dollars in tax revenues, remake the dismal area surrounding Pennsylvania Station” and catalyze development on the Far West Side.

That is a sentiment shared by the Bloomberg administration as well as business and civic groups like the Partnership for New York City and the Regional Plan Association. But Kent L. Barwick, president of the Municipal Art Society, a civic group that has met with the developers, said that it was “inappropriate” for the state to put the project on the fast track and begin an environmental review before “the design, the financing and all the implications are on the table.”

Senator Moynihan first suggested in 1992 that the Farley post office, which stretches from Eighth to Ninth Avenue opposite the Garden, could be turned into a grand train station to help alleviate congestion at Penn Station in a gesture of civic redemption for the much-lamented demolition of the original station in the 1960s.

The state ultimately agreed to buy the Beaux-Arts post office, though the Postal Service continues to operate the historic stamp windows behind the colonnade on Eighth Avenue. In 2005, the state selected Related and Vornado to develop the project. Since the tracks beneath Madison Square Garden extend below the post office, the original plan was to convert the landmark building into a $900 million train station with a monumental train room and large stores like Kmart.

But the developers always had bigger things in mind. They hoped to persuade Cablevision, which owns the Garden, to sell its development rights and move to a new arena, which would allow for the renovation of Penn Station and enable them to build a huge new office complex.

Last December, the plan hit a roadblock when the State Assembly, which is controlled by Democrats, refused to approve the Farley portion of the project, snubbing the outgoing Republican governor, George E. Pataki.

Since then, the Spitzer and the Bloomberg administrations have been working with the developers. The latest plan calls for a new, 20,000-seat arena to be built in the western two-thirds of the Farley building. The glass-covered arena would rise as much as 35 feet above the roof of the post office, with a 10-foot setback. Signs advertising events at the Garden would be mounted on kiosks, rather than plastered on the building as the Garden owners originally suggested.

One source of continuing dispute on the station has been the Garden’s insistence that the colonnade on Eighth Avenue serve as the entrance to the arena, with basketball and hockey fans buying tickets at the stamp windows, walking around the interior, past a large train room, into the arena. Commuters using New Jersey Transit or Long Island Rail Road would enter the building through separate, street-level entrances.

The Garden’s owners are also proposing to replace interior brick walls with glass, allowing visitors to see the interior of the arena. But these proposals have come under fire from preservationists who worry that the Garden will overwhelm the Farley building, much as the Garden replaced Penn Station more than 40 years ago.

“We’re looking for a well-designed, separate and distinct train station,” said Peg Breen, president of the New York Landmarks Conservancy, a private preservation group. “We do not want the Garden to swallow the station.”

Not to worry, state officials say. “This is, first and foremost, a transportation project,” Mr. Foye said. “The goal is to create something that is consistent with Senator Moynihan’s vision of a public space that can accommodate 550,000 daily commuters and still have room for growth.”

After work is done on the Farley building, the developers would move east to demolish the old Garden and allow for the renovation of Penn Station, with separate waiting rooms for Amtrak and for Long Island Rail Road passengers. New Jersey Transit would be the largest single transit tenant in the Farley building. The street-level part of the station would include two corridors running from Seventh to Eighth Avenue, several levels of stores and possibly a major department store in a 10- to 12-story base.

The developers also plan to renovate Vornado’s tower at 2 Penn Plaza and erect two skyscrapers, with one rising up to 1,400 feet, the other about 1,100 feet, according to executives who have seen the plans. On the lower levels, the towers, which would be completed in 2018, would have several 80,000-square-foot floors for a financial institution interested in a trading complex.

The developers are also talking to city officials about an alternative plan that would permit them to transfer development rights to nearby properties so that the skyscrapers would not have to be so tall. Under this scheme, the developers would also be able to start construction of other office buildings before the new arena is completed.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/07/04/nyregion/0704-met-MOYNIHANmap.gif

The developers are also talking to city officials about an alternative plan that would permit them to transfer development rights to nearby properties so that the skyscrapers would not have to be so tall.

why wouldn't we want skyscrapers to be tall?

Probably about money. It's much more expensive to build one 1,000 foot tower than two 500 foot towers.

'Extreme Makeover' coming to Penn Station? Eyewitness News
(New York - WABC, July 4, 2007)

There's a new $14 billion plan in the works to improve Penn Station.

Two of the city's largest developers will soon unveil their design.
The proposal would move Madison Square Garden, replace Hotel Pennsylvania, and build a pair of skyscrapers over the site of the existing station.

It's far from being a done deal, but at the end of the month the public will get a first glimpse at the new design.

Probably about money. It's much more expensive to build one 1,000 foot tower than two 500 foot towers.


really? i figured it would be cheaper to build higher... less land, less materials.... i've always been told it's cheaper to build up than out

if cheaper or more expensive has to do with the prices of the land where a tower/ or more are planned.

At least it won't be long till we see something.

What? They are going to take out the Garden???!!??!! They shouldn't do that...


I agree. MSG is one rare round form in NYC skyline.

I agree. MSG is one rare round form in NYC skyline.

leaves alot to be desired considering it houses professional sports teams in the greatest city in the world.

It would be rebuilt.

http://archrecord.construction.com/n...ennStation.asp

SOM, Foster, and KPF to remake Penn Station

July 16, 2007
by Russell Fortmeyer

Skidmore Owings & Merrill (SOM), Foster + Partners, and Kohn Pedersen Fox (KPF) have been retained as architects for a multi-billion-dollar-project to redevelop New York City’s Pennsylvania Station district, parties close to the deal confirmed on Friday.

Bud Perrone, a spokesperson for the project’s developers, a joint venture of the Related Companies and Vornado Realty Trust, acknowledged that the three architecture firms are involved. Another source involved in the design of the project told RECORD that Foster will prepare the master plan for a site that includes the existing Penn Station, Madison Square Garden (MSG), and two office towers, One and Two Penn Plazas. This plan calls for razing MSG and capping the subterranean train station with a large glass dome.

Errol Cockfield, a spokesperson for the Empire State Development Corporation (ESDC)—the state agency involved in organizing development between private and public interests—confirmed much of the project’s scope. The redevelopment plans include SOM’s previously announced transformation of the Farley Post Office, which the ESDC purchased in March at the southwest corner of 33rd Street and 8th Avenue, into a new Moynihan Station that would augment Penn’s existing—and at-capacity—infrastructure. Cockfield says that the low-rise podium of One Penn would likely be razed, but that the tower would remain and that Two Penn would only be re-skinned. (RECORD’s offices happen to be located in Two Penn Plaza.)

Cockfield says that the ESDC has yet to assemble a timetable for making the designs public, or for the phases of development, but he did say that a scoping session would occur before summer’s end. This session will establish the amount of square footage that the development might contain and prepare rudimentary drawings for how it will be divided. “Some of this is still in flux and people want answers and there is frustration in some corners,” Cockfield says. However, other sources tell RECORD that environmental review hearings are expected to begin this fall. A draft Environmental Impact Statement was completed for the Moynihan project in 2006.

The destruction of McKim Mead & White’s original 1910 Penn Station, in 1964, is largely credited with establishing the historic preservation movement in the U.S. Charles Luckman Associates designed the replacement station, MSG, and office complex, but the public has never quite embraced them. Historian Vincent Scully once wrote that in the old Penn Station, “one entered the city like a god,” while in the new subterranean complex “one scuttles in now like a rat.”

In recent years, the site has been the subject of much speculation. A source involved in the design of the redevelopment has told RECORD that Two Penn Plaza would also be razed to allow for wholesale redevelopment of the area. Planned new structures might include 5.5-million-square-feet of retail, restaurant, hotel, and office space designed by SOM.

Additionally, for a site at the corner of 34th Street and 7th Avenue, KPF would design a 2-million-square-foot skyscraper that will be taller than the Empire State Building, located just two blocks away.

SOM’s plan to turn the Farley Post Office building—designed by McKim Mead & White and completed in 1913—into Moynihan Station could act as the front door to a relocated MSG to the west, as well as house retail space that may include a large department store. Cockfield would not confirm whether or not other architects are involved in this project, but he said that Amtrak or New Jersey Transit will likely call Moynihan home. Currently, those two rail services and the Long Island Rail Road jockey for space in overcrowded Penn underneath MSG. Six adjacent subway lines add to the congestion.

David Childs, FAIA, a partner with SOM, says that his firm is mainly focusing on the Moynihan project. “It’s going to be one of those great stories, but if we finish by 2012, we’ll be lucky,” he says. After numerous starts and stops, that project was put on hold in 2006 when state government officials, including assembly speaker Sheldon Silver, withheld approval until a plan for the entire district could be put forward for review.

Perrone, who is with Rubenstein Communications, says that there are on-going discussions between the developers and various state and local agencies, including the ESDC, the City of New York, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, the railway services, and the state government.

Separately, plans were announced last winter for the destruction of McKim Mead & White’s 1918 Pennsylvania Hotel, located at the northeast corner of 32nd Street and 7th Avenue, to make room for a hotel tower to be designed by Cesar Pelli & Associates and developed by Vornado.

That building’s demolition will leave only the Farley building as the last vestige of the celebrated architects’ legacy in the Penn Station district.

they should built madison cube garden like in futureama lol that would be sweet

At least they will be taller than the Empire States Building :D

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1184...googlenews_wsj

A Garden Grows

July 18, 2007

Madison Square Garden has a new team.

Tycoon duo Stephen Ross of Related Cos. and Steven Roth of Vornado Realty Trust, along with the owner of Madison Square Garden, have hired a team of architects for their planned $14 billion megaproject, which will include a new sports arena, a new train station, and a quartet of towers that will alter the New York skyline.

British architect Norman Foster along with David Childs of Skidmore, Owings and Merrill, New York, collaborating on two towers and a revamped Pennsylvania Station that will rise on the current Madison Square Garden site. The towers would dominate Midtown Manhattan's skyline, one rising higher than the Empire State Building, currently New York's tallest building, at 1,250 feet.

Cablevision Systems Corp., which owns Madison Square Garden, has hired Toronto-based Brisbin Brook Beynon Architects to design the new arena, which is slated to move across the street to between Eighth and Ninth avenues, currently home to the historic James A. Farley Post Office. SHoP Architects PC, New York, will design the street scapes around the new arena.

Pelli Clarke Pelli Architects, New Haven, Conn., will design an office tower with trading floors at the Vornado owned Hotel Pennsylvania site on Seventh Avenue. Merrill Lynch & Co. and Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. are said to be potential tenants there. New York architects Kohn Pedersen Fox Associates will design a separate tower at the corner of 34th Street and Seventh Avenue.

The project awaits several layers of approval, and as conceived, wouldn't be done for more than a decade.

Related and Vornado are also floating an alternative plan that would speed their return on investment in the project by several years. Instead of building the two tallest towers on the current Madison Square Garden site, they would ask the city to let them transfer the "air rights" there to other properties in the neighborhood that could be built on faster.

Ok, so no twin-thing. 10 years in total. Not bad.

Based on my reading of that wall street journal article, this is where I think those four towers are going.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2982/msgfp0.jpg

i vote for the madison cube garden :)
http://www.ironicsans.com/images/futur12.jpg

WHat? I dont understand, Are they going to destroy the Madison Square Garden and build these twin towers? :?:

^^ the're going to move it but yeah, they are going to destroy it.

OMG, i can't believe it.. Now i dont want these towers.. :ohno:

OMG, i can't believe it.. Now i dont want these towers.. :ohno:

NIMBY ALERT!!!

so let me get this right...twins at 500ft...not one 1000ft...and on the MSG site...so where would they put the "Garden" at?...would that cost be put to the builders...or the city?...where would the new Garden be placed?....where would they(Knick & Islanders) play games?...some fill me in yeah...o by the way two 500 footers would not even be noticed in Mid-Town..Imho

OMG, i can't believe it.. Now i dont want these towers.. :ohno:

Well the old stadiums are going to be torn down regardless, so you'll just have to get over it.

very awesome!

Well the old stadiums are going to be torn down regardless, so you'll just have to get over it.
I know, but the MSG is like the Sydney Opera House for NY.

so let me get this right...twins at 500ft...not one 1000ft...and on the MSG site...so where would they put the "Garden" at?...would that cost be put to the builders...or the city?...where would the new Garden be placed?....where would they(Knick & Islanders) play games?...some fill me in yeah...o by the way two 500 footers would not even be noticed in Mid-Town..Imho

I'm pretty sure it's been stated earlier in this thread that the proposal is to build a new sports arena at the post office currently across the street from MSG.

I know, but the MSG is like the Sydney Opera House for NY.

MSG is pretty ugly imo

^
ALEX537


are you aware that the CURRENT MSG is actually the 3rd such building??



the original stood at Madison Square (where NY Life tower now stands)

http://www.greatgridlock.net/NYC_Images/812.jpg

the second MSG stood at 50th st and 8th ave ...where Worldwide Plaza now stands....

http://wirednewyork.com/skyscrapers/worldwide_plaza/images/wwp_j28_s.jpg

and the current MSG stands where the beautiful Pennsylvania Station once stood....

http://www.nyc-architecture.com/GON/26penn.large.jpg



so as you can see MSG can be built just about anywhere in NYC, and the current building is no landmark.....

Let me get this straight. In order to build the four towers the Historic James A. Farley post office and Hotel Pennyslvania will have to be nocked down!? WTF is this world coming to!

^
ALEX537


are you aware that the CURRENT MSG is actually the 3rd such building??



the original stood at Madison Square (where NY Life tower now stands)

http://www.greatgridlock.net/NYC_Images/812.jpg

the second MSG stood at 50th st and 8th ave ...where Worldwide Plaza now stands....

http://wirednewyork.com/skyscrapers/worldwide_plaza/images/wwp_j28_s.jpg

and the current MSG stands where the beautiful Pennsylvania Station once stood....

http://www.nyc-architecture.com/GON/26penn.large.jpg



so as you can see MSG can be built just about anywhere in NYC, and the current building is no landmark.....
OH i didnt know that..
Let me get this straight. In order to build the four towers the Historic James A. Farley post office and Hotel Pennyslvania will have to be nocked down!? WTF is this world coming to!
yeap.

Let me get this straight. In order to build the four towers the Historic James A. Farley post office and Hotel Pennyslvania will have to be nocked down!? WTF is this world coming to!

yeap.


Since James A. Farley post office is a National Landmark,I don't think they will demolish it.I'm supposing MSG will be integrated to the current structure of the post office.

I hope so, cuz i thought that MSG was some kind of landmark for NYC.. IDK

Under the current plans, this is what will happen to the Farley building:

Since then, the Spitzer and the Bloomberg administrations have been working with the developers. The latest plan calls for a new, 20,000-seat arena to be built in the western two-thirds of the Farley building. The glass-covered arena would rise as much as 35 feet above the roof of the post office, with a 10-foot setback. Signs advertising events at the Garden would be mounted on kiosks, rather than plastered on the building as the Garden owners originally suggested.

I know, but the MSG is like the Sydney Opera House for NY.

MSG is known throughout the world for the concerts and sports events, but mostly just for the name. I don't think a lot of people that know about it actually know what it looks like though.

On the other hand, the Sydney Opera House is known for its architecture. It's a symbol, a landmark, and it's instantly recognizable. And a lot more people know about it than about MSG.

My point is that there is no way you can compare the two of them.



Anyway, I have seen MSG myself (the outside) and it's quite ugly.

Wow, looks like a great project. Cant wait for more impressions.

Farley will not be razed.

The towers will be more of a memorable landmark than Madison Square Garden, even though I'm sure many residents of NYC think otherwise.

The towers will be more of a memorable landmark than Madison Square Garden, even though I'm sure many residents of NYC think otherwise.

Few New Yorkers care about the current MSG. It's nothing special.

The towers will be more of a memorable landmark than Madison Square Garden, even though I'm sure many residents of NYC think otherwise.

I'm a New Yorker and I say... BRING ON THE TOWERS!:lol: I agree with Lloyd.

Me too.. screw MSG that thing is and always has been an eyesore. Many people I know hate it simply for what it replaced.

this would be great for NYC, to have twin towers rising up again

current msg is uggglyy

this a landmark?
http://ki.cs.tu-berlin.de/~cove/0209NewYork/20020911-008%20NewYork%20staten%20island%20madison%20square%20garden.JPG
i think not

this would be great for NYC, to have twin towers rising up again

I doubt it will be twins. They already announced that the 2 towers will be different in height. Unfortunately first 1400 ft, second 1100 ft. Maybe they will change that, but for now this is it.

I doubt it will be twins. They already announced that the 2 towers will be different in height. Unfortunately first 1400 ft, second 1100 ft. Maybe they will change that, but for now this is it.

That's correct. One article suggested they'd be twins, but that appears to be wrong. It does seem, however, that there will be four towers over 1,000 feet, and one of them will be 1,400 feet tall.

current msg is uggglyy

this a landmark?
http://ki.cs.tu-berlin.de/~cove/0209NewYork/20020911-008%20NewYork%20staten%20island%20madison%20square%20garden.JPG
i think not
:nuts:

It IS known all over the world though... whether its structually ugly or not... does that make a landmark???

Yes... that's what makes a landmark!!!

As I was trying to say in a previous post... "Madison Square Garden" is a brand, not a landmark.

that's what i thougth

Whaaaaaaat the Madison Square Gordon will be destroyed???? THAT'S A SHAME! :(

i find it good that it will be destroyed, i don't like the building

Me either, I say put something bigger and better and MUCH more memorable there.

Im glad that the Farley building won't be razed, but what about the Hotel Pennsylvania? I think its a great historic building. What a shame.

Madison Square Garden is ugly. ugh. I can't believe that piece of shit replaced the beautiful Pennsylvania station.
BRING THAT MUTHA DOWN!!!!

I'm glad they aren't twins. We already have the time warner buildings... now the focus will be on the one supertall

yeah, i think that this tower would be taller than the Freedom tower.. :)

yeah, i think that this tower would be taller than the Freedom tower.. :)

Yeah in roof height if there is no spire.

yeah, and if there is spire, probably would be taller than the FT :banana:

Heres a picture i found of Hotel Pennsylvania

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8269/wvsnycp158399ub1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Lets say our goodbyes...

hotel penn is awesome, i agree they oughta keep it. when i was there at night for a conference i was impressed

yeah, and if there is spire, probably would be taller than the FT :banana:

It will be taller than the FT. The FT's roof is about 1,350 feet tall.

I believe that one of the two towers by Foster/SOM on the proposed MSG site will be the 1,400 ft. scraper. The 2-million scraper by KPF will be somewhere in the region of Rogers WTC tower... probably around 350 meters in height.

so.ready.for.render.or.something.

i hope it gets passed, is 1400 the tallest the roof will be ya think???

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=120950
This is more info about hotel Penn.

so.ready.for.render.or.something.
im wating for the render too.

im wating for the render too.

Preliminary renderings will be released within a month.

OMG

only one month :banana:

That's cool, those pics/renders of the towers on the first page are quite good as well though.

any news on these towerss??

I believe that one of the two towers by Foster/SOM on the proposed MSG site will be the 1,400 ft. scraper. The 2-million scraper by KPF will be somewhere in the region of Rogers WTC tower... probably around 350 meters in height.

that would be a good thing...have two supertalls to track in NYC along with many other highrises....so do you really think it they will build it highter than the FT...?..maybe they will reach the 500m without a supertall spire...!:ohno:

none of these towers will be taller than the FT ^^, also i don't think they'll reach 500m

MAYBE A 425-450?...is that to much to ask for!!!....lol