It's the LITRA website: http://www.litra.ch/_Les_transports_en_chiffres_2010.html (something semi-official I think, the original statistics are from the government)

It's the LITRA website: http://www.litra.ch/_Les_transports_en_chiffres_2010.html (something semi-official I think, the original statistics are from the government)
Thank you!

Some other statistics, from http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/fr/index/news/publikationen.html?publicationID=3550

Firstly, the main flows of traffic of private cars in 2007 (übrige Relationen = other traffics).

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/7632/autop52.jpg

Average daily traffic on railways.

http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/6410/trenolineep53.jpg

Variation of rail passengers by day (workday, saturday, sunday, sat and sun, average of all days).

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/4107/trenogiornop54.jpg

Type of flows for railways.

http://img573.imageshack.us/img573/5748/trenop58.jpg

Comparison of types of traffic and reasons for travelling.

Strasse = road, Schiene = rail

Verkehrsart = type of traffic
Ziel-/Quellverkehr = traffic from/to switzerland, mainly from/to Italy (I'm not sure which German term refers to traffic exiting Switzerland and which to traffic entering)
Transitverkehr = transit traffic
Binnenverkehr = internal traffic

Fahrtzweck = reasons (commuters, business, shopping and leisure)

Only private cars and long distance trains of the four main passes are considered, no buses and transalpine regional trains.

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/6748/confrontop59.jpg

^^ Those tables, alone, should prompt the Swiss to build a 2nd Gotthard road tunnel.

No, thank you, until what has been decided 20 years ago will be done (the 50% trucks reduction).

The best vehicle a road can have (Chur, GR):

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/2978/dscn1620p.jpg

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/2861/dscn1622x.jpg

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/593/dscn1653.jpg

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/2264/dscn1654ws.jpg

The new train for the Simplon shuttle is being tested with military trucks: http://www.seegerweb.ch/index.php?option=com_ponygallery&func=viewcategory&catid=391&startpage=1&Itemid=26#category

I've uploaded some videos of the rush hour in my hometown Winterthur. No cuts!
Winterthur has about 100'000 inhabitants, but according to Wipkipedia up to 122'000 passengers per day at the main station!

part 1: jCuOB8z25_w

part 2: _zd-AWwTG-A

I've uploaded some videos of the rush hour in my hometown Winterthur. No cuts!
Winterthur has about 100'000 inhabitants, but according to Wipkipedia up to 122'000 passengers per day at the main station!

part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCuOB8z25_w

part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zd-AWwTG-A

:):)

And is there any logical explanation for that?

And is there any logical explanation for that?

People taking multiple trips a day. Someone living in Winterthur, commuting to Zürich will be counted as a passenger at the station twice. Also someone commuting to Winterthur gets counted as two passengers. The Winterthur - Zürich route alone is good for about 100000 passengers.

In the Canton of Zürich the public transport system is fully integrated in a tariff union called ZVV. This covers something like 51 public transport companies (of which 6 railways), and serves a population of 1.3 million. Modal share of public transport is 36% (car is 39%). In the city of Zürich itself public transport moves about twice the number of people as private transport does.
Zürich is one of the wealthiest areas in the world, which shows that a high standard of living is not incompatible with high transit usage...

It does help that the rail network is very dense, looking at Zürich you will see that almost the whole city is located within a 2 km from railway stations.

Comparable cities like the bigger cities in the Netherlands simply a bigger radius with every station. Plus there's no integrated tariff system between the different public transport systems. Therefor you see a much bigger share of private transport, with all the congestion problems that also have a negative effect on the local public transport systems that feed the railways.

A dense system that is used smartly results in a good result, and that's the case in Zürich

The ETR 470.007 took fire this morning (around 9:00), the Gotthard railway has been closed and may be reopened within one hour (around 14.00). Around 4 ETR out of 9 are out of service for different reasons (one because it's under heavy maintenance, one has been damaged in a derailment last week, another one is out of service since last December since SBB doesn't know or want to repair it).

http://www.tio.ch/aa_pagine_comuni/articolo_interna.asp?idarticolo=634977&idsezione=1&idsito=1&idtipo=1&dossier=foto&art=634977&open=1&idimg=2

http://img.tio.ch/tio_common/multimedia/34/977/iphone/h___TFMF_bccthink2xjd2giduhxvoqip_c3996519-3d08-4a9e-8bdd-7e7975c0cc60_0.jpg

Worst trains ever :bash:

Well, their problems are also due to too tight schedules and "sabotages" (when an ETR is preceeded by an ICN a few minutes before, the ICN get priority while the ETR is sometimes delayed). But we cannot neither say that the ETR 470 are the best trains ever.

Well, their problems are also due to too tight schedules and "sabotages" (when an ETR is preceeded by an ICN a few minutes before, the ICN get priority while the ETR is sometimes delayed). But we cannot neither say that the ETR 470 are the best trains ever.

What do schedules have to do with a train setting on fire or having always a high proportion of trains (around 40%) unusable for different technical reasons?

I'm saying that if the ETR 470 are often late in Zürich is not their fault but because the timetable is badly planend. If the ICN could travel in Italy they would probably run late, viceversa if an ETR ran on Basel-Chiasso services, which don't run in Italy, it would run on time. In other words the 470 are extremely unreliable, but the delays are in my opinion due mainly to the timetable or problems on the railway, not due to the ETR themselves.

Comparable cities like the bigger cities in the Netherlands simply a bigger radius with every station. Plus there's no integrated tariff system between the different public transport systems. Therefor you see a much bigger share of private transport, with all the congestion problems that also have a negative effect on the local public transport systems that feed the railways.

There are integrated monthly subscriptions for different carriers in Netherlands. And for regular use, the km-based fees implemented since 2009 with the OV-Chipkaart render the concept of tariff integration obsolete, as you pay for distance traveled.


In the Canton of Zürich the public transport system is fully integrated in a tariff union called ZVV. This covers something like 51 public transport companies (of which 6 railways), and serves a population of 1.3 million. Modal share of public transport is 36% (car is 39%). In the city of Zürich itself public transport moves about twice the number of people as private transport does.
Zürich is one of the wealthiest areas in the world, which shows that a high standard of living is not incompatible with high transit usage...

It is deceiving to measure share of transportation modals on basis of passenger counts. You ought to measure them in a more technical parameter, passenger-km. If you have 10 passengers using a subway for 4km, and 2 passengers using a regional rail for 30km, these 2 passengers put a strain in the system greater than the 10 short-hoppers.

So in every major city in Western Europe, if you measure shares by mere passenger count, you end with high transit shares, but you can't ignore the usual fact that car drivers are among those commuting the longest distance, and for the sake of comparison, 2 passengers driving their cars 30km put more strain on the system than 10 passengers driving 4km.

I am sure they have passenger-km measurement in Zürich.

^^ Public transport in Switzerland holds about 25% of passengers-km, which is much considering that there are a lot of non urban trips. Train share on trips like Bern/Basel-Zürich (municipalities) is around 70 to 90%, finally Basel has around 333 cars every inhabitants, which is very low for a 200.000 inhabitants city (to compare, Milan has around 600).

And for regular use, the km-based fees implemented since 2009 with the OV-Chipkaart render the concept of tariff integration obsolete, as you pay for distance traveled.
You still pay the starting tariff twice if you change from the bus to the train in, and the strippenkaart can't be used anymore on the train where it could be used before. There's simply not the same cooperation as in Zürich were it seems to be working very good.


ps, I like the Re450 DPZ set that got a special look with liveries of 8 companies that are working together in the ZVV.

http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/4400/7892p.jpg

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/8485/7893.jpg

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4048/7979fo.jpg
by: Mr._Hockey
http://www.drehscheibe-foren.de/foren/read.php?106,5346749

^^ Bern and Milano are not appropriate, comparable cities anyway. I've been in Bern just twice. Parking was quite expensive, but otherwise traffic was not that bad.

So in every major city in Western Europe, if you measure shares by mere passenger count, you end with high transit shares, but you can't ignore the usual fact that car drivers are among those commuting the longest distance, and for the sake of comparison, 2 passengers driving their cars 30km put more strain on the system than 10 passengers driving 4km.

I am sure they have passenger-km measurement in Zürich.

They do. But the figures are not that different. Don't forget that long distance commuters (like myself) are more likely to use the train even than short distance commuters.

Anyway, the modal shares of the different modes use by commuters with place of employment (or schooling) in the canton of Zürich is:

In Trips: 36% public transit, 39% car
In km: 39% publict transit, 51% car.

that is for the whole canton, including rural areas.

The number of commuters that enter the city of Zürich by train every day is about 380000. And that is quite impressive for a city that size. Without public transit this city couldn't function.

The number of commuters that enter the city of Zürich by train every day is about 380000. And that is quite impressive for a city that size. Without public transit this city couldn't function.

380.000 train commuters would translate, hypothetically, in something like 340.000 cars. Surely a high number, but doable if you US-style building urban freeways and lots of parking grounds.

But neither are Zurich-bound commuters all going to change to car, nor are their American counterparts going to change to train anyway - at least, in both cases, not on short times.

380.000 train commuters would translate, hypothetically, in something like 340.000 cars. Surely a high number, but doable if you US-style building urban freeways and lots of parking grounds.


I suggest you draw up a volksinitiative calling for the demolishing of Zürich and it's reconstruction along US lines, and see how many signatures you can collect before you are run out of town...
Given that US style Urban freeways don't even seem to work very well in the US why would we introduce them here?

Parking was quite expensive, but otherwise traffic was not that bad.

And the one has something to do with the other...

Currently, a rail map of mine show that railway stops at Scuol. How suitable is that rail line for freight? Are there any long-term plans to connect it with Rundek, in Austria, all the way down the valley?

Around 80 to 100 years ago there were plans to link Scuol and Landeck. Today there is still someone who proposes to build it, or to built a line to Mals in Südtirol, but it is unlikely they will be built.

The existing line to Scuol is narrow gauge, so unsuitable for any transit freight. However it carries local freight, the entire RhB network carries around one million tonnes on 380 km of lines. Part of this traffic, like wood, is transhipped (to road...) in Tirano, but most comes from the SBB network.

380.000 train commuters would translate, hypothetically, in something like 340.000 cars. Surely a high number, but doable if you US-style building urban freeways and lots of parking grounds.
I think you're wrong for two reasons.
1., Building a lot of US style expressways is almost impossible (and very, very expensive any way) if you have such a geographical environment (I mean mountains) that Zürich has. Btw. even Zürich has built some roads this way (check e.g. Hardbrücke) where it was possible.
2., Unlike US cities Zürich (and most of European cities) has a very solid city center which is the target for most of commuters. You should create parking lots for hundreds of thousands of cars in a pretty narrow area where even finding a free place would take a lot of time for each driver. If you wanna take an American example, check Manhattan.

@ Lauterbrunnen

http://www.globalphotos.org/switzerland/20100504/IMG_6676.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/switzerland/20100504/IMG_6673.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/switzerland/20100504/IMG_6679.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/switzerland/20100504/IMG_6687.jpg

Around 80 to 100 years ago there were plans to link Scuol and Landeck. Today there is still someone who proposes to build it, or to built a line to Mals in Südtirol, but it is unlikely they will be built.
Its interesting to see that all the recent proposals for new rail connections in Graubunden.
http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/hintergrund/dossiers/oeffentlicher_verkehr_dossier/oeffentlicher_verkehr_bahnen_schweiz/grosse_buendner_bahn-traeume_1.5395978.html

And it's not just a couple of wild plans, the Kanton Graubunden has done some studies for quite a few new rail connections.

http://www.gr.ch/DE/INSTITUTIONEN/VERWALTUNG/BVFD/AEV/PROJEKTE/Seiten/ThemenProjekte.aspx
http://www.gr.ch/DE/institutionen/verwaltung/bvfd/ds/projekte/nvv/Seiten/default.aspx

The line from the Engadin to Mals keeps coming, it does look like it's still the long term agenda. I wouldn't be surprised if it become a real project at the end of this decade. First the new Albula tunnel will be constructed from 2014, the Engadin - Vinschgau - Bahn could be the next big project.

^^ Cog railways are outdated IMO. They are too slow. How is the largest speed a train can attain in a cog railway with 4% incline?

^^ Cog railways are outdated IMO. They are too slow. How is the largest speed a train can attain in a cog railway with 4% incline?

You don't need a cog railway on a 4% incline.

^^ Cog railways are outdated IMO. They are too slow. How is the largest speed a train can attain in a cog railway with 4% incline?

Not very fast, i would say 60 km/h or so. But what alternative do you propose ?

Not very fast, i would say 60 km/h or so. But what alternative do you propose ?

It's slower than that. In Switzerland maximum speed on rack railways is 40km/h.

However, 4% doesn't need rack. The high speed line from Köln to Frankfurt has grades of up to 4%, and speed there is 300kph...

I think the limit for adhesion (i.e. just rail and wheels, no cogs or racks) is 7.0%. In some cases (Arica-La Paz) the rack is disused because electric and diesel-electric motors provide more consistent traction and can operate on steeper grades than the original steam engines.

According to Wikipedia the steepest adhesion track on a longer line is 116 ‰ on Pöstlingbergbahn in Linz Austria, but that's more like a tramline.

In Switzerland the maximum adhesion grade can be found on the Uetlibergbahn with 79 ‰. But the 7% seems to be the maximum for longer lines, like Berrninabahn that has a maximum of 7% on many parts of the 60km long line.


Is it outdated?

Probably, but in the mountains you simply have to make a choice sometimes. Use a rack system that limits the speed, or build a longer line with more tunnels (= more expensive) that only a little bit faster.

Just look at the Wengeralpbahn from the pictures that hkskyline posted, those go 28km/h on tracks with a grade as much as 25%. The only thing faster would be a cablecar, but then you wouldn't be able to go all the way up to the Jungfraujoch by train.

Just look at the Wengeralpbahn from the pictures that hkskyline posted, those go 28km/h on tracks with a grade as much as 25%. The only thing faster would be a cablecar, but then you wouldn't be able to go all the way up to the Jungfraujoch by train.

Speeding it up might even be risky, as some people gaining that much altitude so fast could lead to medical problems.

The St Gervais (F)-Chamonix (F)-Martigny (CH) railway reaches 90‰ in adhesion on metric gauge.

(the Uetlibergbahn is standard gauge)

Speeding it up might even be risky, as some people gaining that much altitude so fast could lead to medical problems.

This makes no sense. Airplane cabins are pressurized at the equivalent of an altitude of 2.700-2.900m (usually), and they ascent to that altitude faster than any railway in the world.

This makes no sense. Airplane cabins are pressurized at the equivalent of an altitude of 2.700-2.900m (usually), and they ascent to that altitude faster than any railway in the world.

Trains are not pressured like Airplanes , that would cause aton of health issues. Even driving fast down a mountain causes issues....

This makes no sense. Airplane cabins are pressurized at the equivalent of an altitude of 2.700-2.900m (usually), and they ascent to that altitude faster than any railway in the world.

Airplanes are usually pressured at the equivalent altitude of around 2100m, as 2500m is about the altitude some people start having medical problems.
The Jungfraubahn starts at 2061, and climbs to 3454m. So yes, they have to take the health of their passengers in to consideration.

^^ Cog railways are outdated IMO. They are too slow. How is the largest speed a train can attain in a cog railway with 4% incline?

Rack railways have their purpose, to go up steep inclines reliably in all weather.

They are not for high speed IC travel.

Trains are not pressured like Airplanes , that would cause aton of health issues. Even driving fast down a mountain causes issues....

This makes absolutely no sense. A common flight will achieve 6000ft from sea level in few minutes, something a railway will never achieve. Same goes for descent. The effect you experience on your ears downhill has to do with the combination of lateral balance (going down a mountain usually means driving fast in a curvy road or zig-zagging down a ski course or taking a gondola/aerial tram down) with the vertical descent (most humans are more sensitive to rapidly increased than decreased pressure).

In any case: high(ish) speed trains are partially pressurized in an indirect way. I'm sure Swiss trains are. Otherwise, it would be VERY uncomfortable to cross another fast moving train as fast speed in a tunnel.

Fast air displacement can create 2 situation on rail:

- on open air, increased pressures on the frontal and lateral parts of the train that face the wind (main reason for those cool front car designs). This is easy to tackle, though high-speed front cockpits windows and frame withstand pressures per sq. inch greater than an aircraft.

- decreased pressure on certain areas where the air flow is displaced, which means windows and doors have to be reinforced to withstand the pressure neutralization natural trend and preserve the environment within the carriage more comfortable.

Above 230 km/h, these effects are increased dramatically even in open air. In tunnels, this might become serious business. Sure ventilation systems are highly complex to deal with it, but still passengers would feel VERY uncomfortable if train cars were not partially passively pressurized. Then sometimes I hear/read someone whining about the lack of windows that could be opened on high-speed trains...

^^ A 28 km/h fast mountain railway can hardly be counted as high speed rail of course, and those mountain trains are certainly not pressurized.

But I don't think it's a big risk going up an angle of 25% with 28 km/h, compared to modern cablecars it's a slow descend/ascend. At the Jungfraujoch simple height sickness is a much bigger issue, especially for people that aren't used to heights. Just image the Japanese tourist that go from watching tulip fields in Holland at sea level at day one to the 'top' of the Jungfraujoch at 3454m at day two of their European round trip.

2 interesting rail videos from Switzerland, driver's perspective:

Strecke Interlaken - Luzern, now Zentralbahn:

VFOi6kyfZx8

Strecke Brig - Bern via old Lötschberg Tunnel:

rLWbtZz73Ac

^^ Why don't they convert it to standard gauge?

^^ Why don't they convert it to standard gauge?

Your're referring to the Zentralbahn? It would be very expensive, and there really is not point in doing this.
The Lötschbergbahn has always been normal gauge.

^^ Why don't they convert it to standard gauge?

Your're referring to the Zentralbahn? It would be very expensive, and there really is not point in doing this.

One of the alternatives of the AlpTransit project was for a Lugano-Locarno-Meiringen line (known as Gotthard West-Gottardo Ovest), with a branch to Luzern and one do Interlaken, replacing the Brünigbahn.

Trains are not pressured like Airplanes , that would cause aton of health issues. Even driving fast down a mountain causes issues....
Equipment on the recently opened Lhasa, Tibet line is pressurized.

Mike

Talking about changing gauge.

What happened with that whole project connecting the MOB line with the Zentralbahn. First it was all the way from Montreux to Luzern with a mixed gauge track between Zweisimmen and Interlaken Ost. Then after a long time the project came back to live as Trans Golden Pass. They would be using a train with variable gauge axles, but only between Montreux and Interlaken. Now it's scaled back even further with just a service between Montreux and Spiez because the Kanton Bern doesn't want to pay for more trains.

Is it really worth the bother and the money to go ahead as planned with a start of service in 2015? Can't the BLS just a put some Golden Pass stickers on an extra Lötschberger set that runs a couple of services between Zweisimmen and Interlaken. It doesn't really matter if people have to change in Zweisimmen or in Spiez anyway.

It doesn't really matter if people have to change in Zweisimmen or in Spiez anyway.

I agree...without reaching Interlaken the whole project is useless.

Description: http://www.goldenpass.ch/documents/showFile.asp?ID=3428

Is it really worth the bother and the money to go ahead as planned with a start of service in 2015? Can't the BLS just a put some Golden Pass stickers on an extra Lötschberger set that runs a couple of services between Zweisimmen and Interlaken. It doesn't really matter if people have to change in Zweisimmen or in Spiez anyway.

Well, BLS already has dedicated Golden Pass stock anyway.

But going to Spiez has some point though. Spiez is on the main North - South route. It's a main hub, which Zweisimmen isn't. And it will allow to gain some experience with this technology, which might come in use elsewhere too.

I see your point, but since the original aim of this project was to connect the Golden Pass with the Brünig to make a new train that would try to rival the Glacier Express it's just a bit meager. From Spiez it's just a short distance to Interlaken where it can connect with the Zentralbahn and the BOB, that would just be more interesting for tourist.

And I know the BLS has a couple of Golden Pass cars, but how much longer can they be using those aging EW I cars?

The undamaged parts of the ETR 470.006 (derailed on May 9th) and 007 (fire of May 17th) will be probably merged to create a "working" train. As the 007 already has one vehicle of the 003 following another fire, there will be a hybrid train formed by cars originally built for three different sets.

I see your point, but since the original aim of this project was to connect the Golden Pass with the Brünig to make a new train that would try to rival the Glacier Express it's just a bit meager.

I know that on the surface it looks meager. But I suspect that one of the reasons underlying this project is to just test the technology. It works and is reliable it could be used for a lot of other services. And if the Golden Pass becomes more popular it could be that BLS decides to run it to Interlaken anyway.

The undamaged parts of the ETR 470.006 (derailed on May 9th) and 007 (fire of May 17th) will be probably merged to create a "working" train. As the 007 already has one vehicle of the 003 following another fire, there will be a hybrid train formed by cars originally built for three different sets.

That will surely affect already affected timetable, won't it? It's kinda Frankensteinish train...

^^ yes, today only 4 out of 7 return trips use the ETR 470, with the others replaced by conventional (non EMU) trains or transhipments.

Some pictures of the variable gauge prototype in Lucerne's transport museum.

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/7994/dscn1789q.jpg
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/291/dscn1791o.jpg
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3961/dscn1792.jpg
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8835/dscn1793j.jpg

And a flar rail used in the track linking the museum and the railway network (here (http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=it&geocode=&q=Lucerna&aq=&sll=46.362093,9.036255&sspn=5.049539,9.832764&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Lucerna,+Luzern,+Lucerna&ll=47.054147,8.334458&spn=0.000612,0.0012&t=k&z=20), also on Street View).

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/5261/dscn1734c.jpg
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4309/dscn1735l.jpg

And a flar rail used in the track linking the museum and the railway network (here (http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=it&geocode=&q=Lucerna&aq=&sll=46.362093,9.036255&sspn=5.049539,9.832764&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Lucerna,+Luzern,+Lucerna&ll=47.054147,8.334458&spn=0.000612,0.0012&t=k&z=20), also on Street View).

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/5261/dscn1734c.jpg
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4309/dscn1735l.jpg
What is the function of this?

Mike

I don't know. Flat rails are used on the external side on tracks with a very small radius of curvature, but this track is quite straight.

Zürich HB (not from me)
7xOD1X101zI

Thouse Double Deckers would look far better if they had 30% less windows and the windows on the upper level were slightly more rounded and smaller.

http://www.swissmetro.ch/sites/all/themes/swissmetro/swissmetro-logo.png

Zürich – Bern in 12 Minutes

The demand for mobility is constantly increasing. At the same time the call for sustainability is getting louder. Everywhere investments flow into new technologies, in order to be able to supply the want for mobility in the future. Many studies have shown that the ecologically sustaibnable Swissmetro is technically feasible and that it makes sense from a macreconomic point of view.

Unfortunately, there is not enough political will to go ahead with this project. So a far-advanced technology of and for the next generation remains in the drawer. More than ever do we need the courage to think beyond the next economic recovery; for the future begins today. That is why Pro Swissmetro stands up for this visionary project. We are happy that you are also taking an interest in Swissmetro.

http://www.swissmetro.ch/sites/default/files/imagecache/gal-image/gallery-images/Fahrzeug_im_Tunnel_2_0.jpg


http://www.swissmetro.ch/sites/default/files/images/swissmetro_netz_2011_b.content-width-lightbox.png

http://www.swissmetro.ch/sites/default/files/images/Fahrzeug_Interieur_0.content-width.jpg

Thouse Double Deckers would look far better if they had 30% less windows and the windows on the upper level were slightly more rounded and smaller.

Looks aren't the only thing. As a frequent passenger on these trains I'd rather have even bigger windows.

Unfortunately, there is not enough political will to go ahead with this project. So a far-advanced technology of and for the next generation remains in the drawer. More than ever do we need the courage to think beyond the next economic recovery; for the future begins today. That is why Pro Swissmetro stands up for this visionary project. We are happy that you are also taking an interest in Swissmetro.


Swissmetro AG was liquidated in 2009. The rights to the technology are now owned by the Lausanne Technical University. "Pro Swissmetro" is only a lobby group that tries to keep interest in the project alive. It's unlikely to happen in the near future.

Zürich HB (not from me)

:cheers: And we don't see the trains running beneath the surface! traffic in this station is amazing

:cheers: And we don't see the trains running beneath the surface! traffic in this station is amazing

It is quite busy, I guess it might be as busy as Milano Centrale (if you consider all the approaches and junction leading to the terminus station).

Zürich HB is slightly busier than Milano Centrale considering both passenger number and train movements, even if not that much.

As for Wikipedia, Zürich HB has 300.000 to 500.000 (well...that's not very precise) daily passengers and around 3000 train movements, while Milano Centrale has 320.000 daily passengers on around 500 trains (if considered as pairs, arriving and leaving, this equals to 1000 train movements).

However, all suburban traffic in Milan serve the (not so much) nearby Garibaldi and Repubblica stations (there are no suburban trains in Centrale), while in Zürich nearly everything pass through and stop in the Haupbahnhof.

Looks aren't the only thing. As a frequent passenger on these trains I'd rather have even bigger windows.
Indeed,

And in Switzerland big windows are always a good thing to have, just to have an better view of the beautiful scenery outside. :)

A comparison between the double decker IC 2000 car and the EW IV car (both in Intercity services):

IC 2000 (from schweizer-bahnen.ch):
http://www.schweizer-bahnen.ch/Hintergrundbilder/GrossesFormat/IC2000_Algetshausen_gross.jpg

IC 2000 upper deck 2nd class:
http://www.vagonweb.cz/fotogalerie/foto/200903/IC-2000-amp-4.jpg

IC 2000 under deck 1st class:
http://www.vagonweb.cz/fotogalerie/foto/200903/IC-2000-amp-6.jpg

EW IV:
http://www.vagonweb.cz/fotogalerie/foto/200901/A-1095-019.jpg

EW IV 1st class (my favourite):
http://www.vagonweb.cz/fotogalerie/foto/201004/P1080497.jpg

detail:
http://www.vagonweb.cz/fotogalerie/foto/201004/P1080493.jpg

EW IV 2nd class:
http://www.vagonweb.cz/fotogalerie/foto/200901/B-2195.jpg

source: vagonweb.cz

^^ 2nd class seats without armrest to divide the places: uncomfortable ride if you have someone by our side.

^^ 2nd class seats without armrest to divide the places: uncomfortable ride if you have someone by our side.

Are you afraid of getting infected if you touch someone else by chance? :lol: it is not uncomfortable at all

The SBB said that its ETR 470 will be whitdrawn by the end of 2014, and that they will not receive the planned midlife overhaul. Only minor and temporary maintenance works will be carried on for about 12 millions CHF. It is not know what are the planes for Trenitalia's ETR, nor by what they will be replaced.

^^ 2nd class seats without armrest to divide the places: uncomfortable ride if you have someone by our side.

As you said once in another thread, not so long ago : there must be SOME
difference between first and second class. Here, at least, you know what you
pay for. Last car models on the Belgian network have very little difference
between second and first, and I think this is an error. First because the
50% price uplift becomes difficult to justify (for me, it's now much less a
difference of comfort than a difference of public) but also now people have
all good reasons to sit in first class with a second class ticket, and pretend
they did it by mistake when they get caught. At least here it can't happen...

^^ 2nd class seats without armrest to divide the places: uncomfortable ride if you have someone by our side.

Only for the extremely anti social. Or fat.

Last car models on the Belgian network have very little difference
between second and first, and I think this is an error. First because the
50% price uplift becomes difficult to justify (for me, it's now much less a
difference of comfort than a difference of public) but also now people have
all good reasons to sit in first class with a second class ticket, and pretend
they did it by mistake when they get caught. At least here it can't happen...

To make matters even worse Belgian train passengers think that they can claim seats in first class if second class is full. Last time I was in Belgium we had first class tickets, and had to stand anyway, while seats were occupied by people with second class tickets en go-passes...

Being used to Swiss Railways this does get annoyed. At least in Switzerland you can still reserve seats on domestic trains, something I can really appreciate when going to Ticino on holiday weekends.

Yeah, if you were paying good money for a longer journey for once I agree with suburbanist. It would be bad if you sat next to some fat person or if they had lots of crap in a backpack or something. I had that experience on a bus, where the rider next to me was building a sort of campsite in his seat with all the comforts of home and crushing me to death.

It's normal for the bottom deck of commuter trains though.

What is the EW IV top speed?

IC 2000 is 200 km/h, AFAIK?

^^ The top speed of the EW IV is also 200km/h, but that's only for the cars that got an upgrade to be used in the IC push-pull sets. That's about 60% of the whole fleet, the other 40% still has a max speed of 160km/h.

The SBB said that its ETR 470 will be whitdrawn by the end of 2014, and that they will not receive the planned midlife overhaul. Only minor and temporary maintenance works will be carried on for about 12 millions CHF. It is not know what are the planes for Trenitalia's ETR, nor by what they will be replaced.
At least they will have more then enough "Eurocity" cars available after the new double decker sets come into service.

The dilemma for the SBB is that they have to choose between standard HST sets or tilting sets. The longer they wait with an order the bigger the chance that it will be non tilting sets. With the opening of the Gotthard Base tunnel the time reduction for using tilting trains compared to regular trains won't be as big anymore. If they will order new trains now they will come into service just before the tunnel opens, order later and they will start operating in the tunnel straight away. It's not that weird that the SBB did some research into ordering full High Speed trains with a full tilting system. Since that was deemed impossible by the industry they probably made the choice to wait a bit longer before ordering a new train.


In the mean time, how are the ETR610 holding out now they are fully approved to run with a working tilting system on the Gotthard line?

In the mean time, how are the ETR610 holding out now they are fully approved to run with a working tilting system on the Gotthard line?

In theory the ETR 610 should have a temporary permission to tilt on the Gotthard line valid until spring 2012, but the only return trip that uses them shows constant delays, so I suppose something changed and they cannot tilt anymore.

This is not a problem anyway, the SBB said that since next december this return trip will be limited to Basel-Gotthard-Milano (instead of Venice) and that it will be run using an ETR 470.

Finally the ETR 610 will have run only one year and on only one return trip a day on the line for which they where bought, what a success...

In addition some trains currently run (theoretically) by ETR 470 will receive a new timing and will be run with conventional trains. The current timetable requires 4 trains out of 9 running each day, but as of today only 2 or 3 trains are in running conditions and used daily as half the fleet is out of service for maintenance or accidents, the last ETR 470 (train 8) having broken down today running as EC 20 (I don't know the damages and if and when it will re-enter service).

A freight train took fire yesterday morning in the Simplon tunnel. Nobody was hurt but the tunnel is still closed as the fire is not totally extinguished even after 36 hours, albeit one tube could open tomorrow at midday. The damaged tube may remain clsoed for weeks or months.

http://sbb.filepool.ch/eyebasealbum.data/bilder/512/297/00056045_w.jpg
http://sbb.filepool.ch/eyebasealbum.data/bilder/512/297/00056044_w.jpg
http://sbb.filepool.ch/eyebasealbum.data/bilder/512/297/00056041_w.jpg

(photos SBB)

Yesteday the nearby Simplon road was closed because of the smoke:

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/7589/foto0137y.jpg

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6044/foto0138y.jpg

^^ It doesn't look so bad as to close it for several months; I hope CFF can repair it in some weeks...

Next year heavy refurbishment works will be done in this tunnel, with long closures of one of the four parts of the tunnel, so it is possible they will anticipate these works and keep closed the damaged section for months. The fire happened in the southern section of the west tunnel, so the other three sections are intact. The result will be single track operation for about 10 km.

At least the eastern tunnel has been reopened, a first shuttle train Brig-Domodossola will use it within 5 minutes. EuroCity trains will probably not run until tomorrow at least, until then only some freight and Brig-Domodossola shuttles will run.

Shuttle timetable: http://sbb-him.hafas.de/download/11062011113905110611_ErsatzfahrplanSimplon.pdf

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/4264/p1040025bis.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/861/p1040025bis.jpg/)

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/3066/p1040030bis.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/854/p1040030bis.jpg/)

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/4647/p1040040bis.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/695/p1040040bis.jpg/)

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/2817/bild021bis.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/268/bild021bis.jpg/)

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/324/bild023bis.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/101/bild023bis.jpg/)

"Flirt Vaudoise" RABe 523 027 as "S 1" from Villeneuve via Lausanne to Yverdon-les-Bains is passing the wine village St-Saphorin on the shore of Lake Geneva. In the background another Flirt in the opposite direction.
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/2/2/2/3222.1303239026.jpg
railpictures (http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=360983&nseq=51)

Soubledeck commuter train from StadlerRail for the SBB, RABe 511 001, on a transfer run from the Valais to Berne, on the 7.8 km long and 3.8 % steep connecting line from Vevey on the Lake Geneva through the vineyards up to Puidoux-Chexbres on the line Lausanne-Fribourg.
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/0/9/2/8092.1302724450.jpg
railpictures (http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=360358&nseq=65)

Inter Regio 1728 from Brig to Geneva Airport passing the small wine village St-Saphorin on the shore of Lake Geneva, between Vevey and Lausanne.
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/9/3/5/4935.1302816941.jpg
railpictures (http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=360454&nseq=61)

:cheers:

The ETR 610 have suffered some problems with the wheels.
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/panorama/vermischtes/PendolinoPanne-am-Simplon-/story/13547443

They where taken out of service for a day causing problems with the services through the Simplon.

But they are more reliable then the ETR 470 with less delays then the old Pendolino's, although they are still not up to par with the SBB standard.

Verspätungen im Jahr 2010:

• CIS ETR 470, Cisalpino
weniger als 5 Minuten: 49,4 Prozent
weniger als 15 Minuten: 22,4 Prozent

• CIS ETR 610, Cisalpino Due
weniger als 5 Minuten: 28,2 Prozent
weniger als 15 Minuten: 12,3 Prozent

The problems of the ETR 470 are not really due with trains breaking down en route, but with trains unavailable (also because SBB and Trenitalia don't want to repair them, which is quite costly). For example, a train leave Milan at 7.10 and go back and forth to Zürich until 22.50, with no pause longer than 20 minutes. So if the first trip of the day is 20' late in Zürich, the last will arrive 60' late in Milan midnight. Personally I find the ETR 470 quite confortable, when they work correctly and are cleaned (which is not assured, especially for Trenitalia's trains).

^^ Trenitalia should put a "Freccia Svizzera" train on operation and do it as open-access carrier in Swiss territory, instead of having to cope with SBB.

They should do like DB does with the EC München-Verona-Venezia.

Only difference is that they wouldn't be able to carry passengers on domestic trips in CH.

OBB should start another set of open-access services without trying to enter into joint ventures with Trenitalia. SBB undermined Cisalpino a lot.

Open acces passenger trains are not allowed as thankfully Switzerland is not part of the EU.

DB-ÖBB operate alone their EC because Trenitalia didn't wanted them, as most international trains to Italy have been whitdrawn in recent years. Trenitalia is even making its best to sabotage these trains (and Arenaways, NTV, and any othe rpossible competitor).

Open acces passenger trains are not allowed as thankfully Switzerland is not part of the EU.


That would be a shortsighted policy. As a country positioned in the center of trans-European traffic, Switzerland would be poised to earn million on access fees from open access carriers.

The money it could earn doesn't compensate for the loss of capacity of the many staurated (and, those from Italy, single track) lines around the network.

An article from Romandie's La Chaux-de-Fonds city, often forgotten as the third largest city of the language region

La Chaux-de-Fonds refuse d'être l'oubliée du rail Le Matin (http://www.lematin.ch/actu/suisse/la-chaux-de-fonds-refuse-detre-loubliee-du-rail)

http://www.lematin.ch/files/imagecache/600x440/stories/73747338.JPG

La Chaux-de-Fonds se sent maltraitée et ignorée. Elle estime qu'en tant que troisième ville de Suisse romande elle mériterait d'avoir plus de place dans le projet de financement et d'aménagement de l'infrastructure ferroviaire de la Confédération.

La Chaux-de-Fonds ne veut pas être l'oubliée du rail. Le Conseil communal estime que la 3e ville de Suisse romande est "totalement ignorée" dans le projet de financement et d'aménagement de l'infrastructure ferroviaire (FAIF) de la Confédération mis en consultation ce printemps. Les autorités ont écrit une lettre à l'Office fédéral des transports pour faire part de leur mécontentement.

A l'approche du 1er Août et des discours sur la cohésion nationale, la question prend une importance toute particulière et les parlementaires fédéraux neuchâtelois sont invités à y réfléchir. Dans leur lettre, les autorités demandent que la connexion de La Chaux-de-Fonds (38'000 habitants) réponde aux mêmes standards que ceux prévus pour d'autres villes de taille comparable. Elles déplorent que les principales villes du pays n'aient pas été associées au projet FAIF.

"La troisième ville de Suisse romande ne figure même pas sur les cartes et documents", s'étrangle le Conseil communal. Cela est "inadmissible et ne peut être lu que comme une marque de mépris à l'égard de toute une région".

Les temps de parcours dans la région demeurent proches des performances affichées au début du XXe siècle, dénonce la Ville dans un communiqué. Les infrastructures sont "héritées du temps de la vapeur" et la région est totalement absente des projets d'amélioration.

Le Conseil communal demande de prendre en considération le Jura neuchâtelois et l'Arc jurassien dans le projet FAIF. La desserte du noeud ferroviaire de La Chaux-de-Fonds doit absolument être améliorée. Cela passe notamment par une relation avec Berne via Bienne à la demi-heure en intégrant la connexion de La Chaux-de-Fonds dans le réseau RER de Berne. La Ville réclame aussi une relation avec Lausanne à la demi-heure via le projet de nouvelle infrastructure Transrun.

Basically they complain about the fact that the city is ignored in the last long-term railway infrastructure financing study (FAIF (http://www.bav.admin.ch/themen/03044/index.html?lang=fr)), being a relatively important city and getting much less attention than other comparable cities.

Their demands are to improve the railway lines to and from the city, most importantly to add a train every half an hour to Bern via Biel-Bienne by integrating the city into the suburban network of Bern, as well as a new train every half an hour to Lausanne using the new railway network built in the canton (Neuchâtel) which plans to build a new direct line between La Chaux-de-Fonds and Neuchâtel among other stuff around 2020.

I honestly don't see the city included into Bern's RER, as it is too far from it and there are probably relatively few daily commuters to the city, which are the main aim of such network, but increasing frequencies to Lausanne and Bern by normal interregio trains would be good; in the first case it would be pretty easy as it would just require to extend services from Neuchâtel once the new line is built...

^^ I hate, anywhere they might be, these local-level politicians that dare to mingle to argue about strictly technical decisions like "a train every hour" or "a flight that arrives here, but departing xyz only after 9pm".

Sure, it is ok to demand a longer runway, a wider highway, a straightened/tunneled railway, but to go down on schedules is pedantic. In CH, NL, I or anywhere else.

^^ http://www.progetto-orario.ch/

^^ Overblown. It is counterproductive to engage the public (and take comments) for something strictly technical like timetables, instead of focusing on new infrastructure or improvements.

^^ I hate, anywhere they might be, these local-level politicians that dare to mingle to argue about strictly technical decisions like "a train every hour" or "a flight that arrives here, but departing xyz only after 9pm".

Sure, it is ok to demand a longer runway, a wider highway, a straightened/tunneled railway, but to go down on schedules is pedantic. In CH, NL, I or anywhere else.

Bullshit. Locals are by definition important stakeholders and the schedule is essential for the transport service provided in their area. So its their right to make their elected representants demand proper services and not only the infrastructure.

Your argumentation is like saying: "Ok, we'll get a motorway connection. It won't lead anywhere someone would like to go, but we get it, so now we have to shut up."

Bullshit. Locals are by definition important stakeholders and the schedule is essential for the transport service provided in their area. So its their right to make their elected representants demand proper services and not only the infrastructure.

Your argumentation is like saying: "Ok, we'll get a motorway connection. It won't lead anywhere someone would like to go, but we get it, so now we have to shut up."

I am not saying locals are not stakeholders, just saying that nobody should start wasting time and resources for something that is strictly technical like to decide if a train comes 7h26 or 7h34.

If there are problems with overcrowded trains or lengthy trips, then it is ok to demand faster travel times and more seats, but to mingle with the specifics of timetable, it is too much.

^^ they are not telling SBB-CFF which schedules should they put into place, they're simply asking to double the capacity between La-Chaux-de-Fonds and Lausanne, as there is one train per hour right now (departing from Lausanne and changing trains in Neuchâtel). Given the Swiss railways schedules system, there is a train departing every hour from Lausanne at X:45' for Neuchâtel so it would make a lot of sense to introduce the second train at X:15' (instead of a weird thing like at X:00'), but of course CFF could choose to move all trains at X:00' and X:30' instead.

Departing times are an essential component of train services. Of course, local stakeholders in almost all cases can't directly influence exact times, but they can - and have to - demand departures that fit their needs - being it either departures at convenient times (e. g. for pupils to get to school and back home without having to wait on the platform too long) or by demanding regular intervals.

The new look Re 4/4 II -> Re420 LION

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4619/508662pic970x641.jpg
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/region/SBahn-Klimaanlagen-und-alte-Loks/story/29245392


30 of the 250+ Re 4/4 II locomotives will be refurbished to be used for rush-hour trains on the Zürich S-Bahn. 15 sets will be formed together with former DPZ double-deck coaches with a loco at each end.

I am not saying locals are not stakeholders, just saying that nobody should start wasting time and resources for something that is strictly technical like to decide if a train comes 7h26 or 7h34.

That is not how the public get involved. The technical details of the timetable are worked out by the competent technicians.
However, the service level is discusses on the stakeholder level, and rightly so. Those that pay for the service are entitled to comment on it, after all.

So mostly the discussions are about "do we want a train every hour or every half hour" or "do we want a train or a bus" or which services should connect with which when it's not possible to give short transfer times in all directions.

The new timetables of Shitalpino trains have been published. Another train has been cancelled (the 18-19), reducing the number of trips from 15 in 2008 to 7 in 2012 (those 7 are quite often overcrowded with standing people, even if there has been a drop in passenger numbers caused by the mismanagement of the SBB).

EC 12 Milano 7.10 Zurigo 10.51
EC 14 Milano 9.10 Zurigo 12.51
EC 16 Milano 11.10 Zurigo 14.51
EC 18 canceled (change in Chiasso from S11 Porta Garibaldi 12.38)
EC 20 Milano 15.10 Zurigo 18.51
EC 22 Milano 17.10 Zurigo 21.29
EC 24 Milano 19.10 Zurigo 23.29
EC 158 Milano 20.10 Zurigo 10.51 (per Basilea)

EC 13 Zurigo 7.09 Milano 10.50
EC 153 Zurigo 8.09 Milano 11.50 (da Basilea)
EC 15 Zurigo 8.31 Milano 12.50
EC 17 Zurigo 11.09 Milano 14.50
EC 19 canceled (change in Chiasso to S11 Porta Garibaldi 17.22)
EC 21 Zurigo 15.09 Milano 18.50
EC 23 Zurigo 17.09 Milano 20.50
EC 25 Zurigo 19.09 Milano 22.50

Thank you, SBB. Thank you.

PS the 14-23 round trip is made by the same train. As it is late 90% of the days, it would have been more serious to advertise an arrival in Zürich at 13.29, not 12.51. Just like what has been done for EC 24, which will arrive at 23.29 to include the usual 40 minutes of delay. In the following table the delays of the last month of EC 14: only for 4 days out of 35 it had less than 15 minutes of delay.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9238/ces14.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/35/ces14.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

The new look Re 4/4 II -> Re420 LION

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4619/508662pic970x641.jpg
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/region/SBahn-Klimaanlagen-und-alte-Loks/story/29245392


30 of the 250+ Re 4/4 II locomotives will be refurbished to be used for rush-hour trains on the Zürich S-Bahn. 15 sets will be formed together with former DPZ double-deck coaches with a loco at each end.

I am highly impressed of the Re 4/4 II, and that it has been kept alive for so long. Their beautiful, and an example of that newer is not just better, there's certain advances to keeping certain things!

I am highly impressed of the Re 4/4 II, and that it has been kept alive for so long. Their beautiful, and an example of that newer is not just better, there's certain advances to keeping certain things!

The Swiss railway management is cheap in the negative sense. "Revamped" old tracks, tricking schedules instead of focusing on performance, retrofitting trains instead of placing orders for state-of-the-art stock, single-lane "optmizd" tracks... Lot's of issues with Swiss rail management.

^^ Yeah we know, reality sucks. But unlike you the most of find it much more interesting to see how the railway companies actually deal with all the possibilities and constraints that have an influence on building and maintaining an existing network. We understand that rebuilding a complete network isn't an option and therefor won't go bitching about it until nobody cares anymore what we got to say.


@Alseimik

I also got a soft spot for these locomotives. It's got a simple look, but that also it's charm. And they keep on working and working, it's a good example of high quality Swiss engineering.

But with the new IC double decker trains and the ongoing deliveries of new Stadler Flirts regional trains most of the Re 4/4 II won't be around as long as these 30 refurbished locos, they can't go on forever.

There was the day before yesterday a lateral collision between two regional trains near Basel, apparently caused by one driver not respecting a traffic light: TSR (http://www.tsr.ch/video/info/journal-12h45/3488334-so-une-collision-laterale-s-est-produite-entre-deux-trains-regionaux-pres-de-la-gare-d-olten.html) (only in french)

This is supposed to be temporary, right? I remember there was an agreement signed between the FS, SBB, the Tessin and Lombardia around 2 months ago to increase the frequency before the universal exhibition in milano in 2015, the cisalpino in particular should be replaced in 2014 by another service.

found it! the news is here: [url]http://www.tsr.ch/info/radio/les-titres/suisse/3315689-trafic-ferroviaire-ameliore-entre-la-suisse-et-l-italie.html (http://imageshack.us)

There has been a speech, but no real agreement. Apparently things may get better in the medium term (2015), but next year will be worsened.

PS the source for delays is http://www.cessoalpino.com/ (the name is a pun, it is similar to the original name of the service "Cisalpino" but means "Toilet-alpino" in Italian), it's a website created by a commuter of the Gotthard line. The website has a software that stores in a database all delays provided by official sources ( http://prosurf.sbb.ch/ and http://mobile.viaggiatreno.com/ ). One can search delays by train or by day, from 2006 up to now.

Regional trains also have a lot of delays according to Coccodrillo's linked site.

How credible are claims like this (from that site):

Piccola chicca: l'ETR 470 n. 9, dopo essere stato in revisione per oltre 8 mesi, è tornato a circolare pochi giorni fa. Mercoledì era in servizio come EC 21 con 1 unità di trazione su 3 fuori uso, sistema di pendolamento fuori uso, 5 wc guasti e una carrozza senza climatizzazione!

If a train returned from heavy overhaul, why on earth should it have the titling mechanism disabled and 3 traction units out of use within days of its reentry on service? Seems like shoddy maintenance work.

==================================

A question: shouldn't they move those trains from the problematic Gotthard line (until the new tunnel opens) and shift most services via Loestchber and Simplon tunnels instead, cutting some stops to make up time of course?

The Swiss railway management is cheap in the negative sense. "Revamped" old tracks, tricking schedules instead of focusing on performance, retrofitting trains instead of placing orders for state-of-the-art stock, single-lane "optmizd" tracks... Lot's of issues with Swiss rail management.

I think 99% of the world's population would almost kill for their country to have Swiss railways. There's no use griping about those things.

Regional trains also have a lot of delays according to Coccodrillo's linked site.

They have often 4 or 5 minutes delay, but usually they recover them before the terminus. And it's nothing comapred to the EC CIS.

How credible are claims like this (from that site):

If a train returned from heavy overhaul, why on earth should it have the titling mechanism disabled and 3 traction units out of use within days of its reentry on service? Seems like shoddy maintenance work.

Each ETR 470 is composed by three "traction units" more or less indipendents. According to the failure, one of these may be out of order but without halting completely the train. Each train has 6 pantographs: 2 each for Italy, Switzerland and Germany, but as those for Germany were added later, only 4 of the pantographs can be used with the tilting activated (the two for Italy, and one of each other type). It is possible (I'm not sure, it is a supposition) that if one traction unit break down the pantograph linked to it become unusable. And if this pantograph is one of the tilting ones the conductor has to use the backup pantograph that forbid tilting (because backup pantographs cannot move in the opposite direction of the car body).

In addition the ETR 470 are quite ureliable, so sometimes they have to put quickly into service a non completely repaired (but running) set because one or two other trains broke down.

A question: shouldn't they move those trains from the problematic Gotthard line (until the new tunnel opens) and shift most services via Loestchber and Simplon tunnels instead, cutting some stops to make up time of course?

The problem is not the line but the trains and the badily planned timetable. The route via the Simplon-Lötschberg would not be quicker and much shorter travel times are not possible because of the timetable and the infrastructure.

PS no, cancelling 20 trains to reduce Milan-Zürich travel time by 15 minutes is not considered a viable option.

They have often 4 or 5 minutes delay, but usually they recover them before the terminus. And it's nothing comapred to the EC CIS.

I used that website for STATISTICS/ then RE, and some trains have average delays of 14-20 minutes.

PS no, cancelling 20 trains to reduce Milan-Zürich travel time by 15 minutes is not considered a viable option.

Cancelling is not needed! Just slow'em down, like they do in Italy with hierarchized planning. If a faster train needs to pass, too bad, lower trains gotta spend time at stations idling to make room for the faster and more important trains.

1) yes, but they are the minority of the trains, not the majority

2) it's impossible now (I don't even try to explain you why), however it's what is done when a new structure is planified

1) yes, but they are the minority of the trains, not the majority"

Indeed, I realized the average delay parameter doesn't consider trains that arrived with zero delay (= on time).

2) it's impossible now (I don't even try to explain you why), however it's what is done when a new structure is planified

Of course it is!

Example: A Zürich Hautbanhof-Bern-Visp-Domodossola-Milano Centrale is scheduled. It can run without interfering with the SBB's ICs.

Put that train running, and then if a train would have conflict on the Lötschberg tunnel, hold it on the previous station with a passing loop until the Cisalpino train overtake them. This will increase travel time for those who now miss a connection, but long distance trains are more important than commuter trains anyway.

A question: shouldn't they move those trains from the problematic Gotthard line (until the new tunnel opens) and shift most services via Loestchber and Simplon tunnels instead, cutting some stops to make up time of course?

Simplon tunnel has limited capacity at the moment. That's why there are so few international trains on that route also.

The biggest problem is however Trenitalia's complete disinterest in international services.

Example: A Zürich Hautbanhof-Bern-Visp-Domodossola-Milano Centrale is scheduled. It can run without interfering with the SBB's ICs.


If you want to travel Zürich - Milano via Bern - Visp you can already do so.
Take for example the 12:32 from Zürich to Bern, and change to the EC to Milano there. Total travel time 4h06. Just a bit slower than via the Gotthard.

However, the most important function of the Gotthard trains is not transporting people from Zürich to Milano. It's transporting people from the northern part of Switzerland to Ticino, and transporting people from Ticino to Milano.
It's just a matter of efficiency to combine Zürich - Chiasso with Bellinzona - Milano.


, but long distance trains are more important than commuter trains anyway.

Not when the commuters are the tax payers that financed the construction of the line.

The Swiss railway management is cheap in the negative sense. "Revamped" old tracks, tricking schedules instead of focusing on performance, retrofitting trains instead of placing orders for state-of-the-art stock, single-lane "optmizd" tracks... Lot's of issues with Swiss rail management.

What is it that you have against efficiency? Against a company trying to make a profit?

And why is it that you manage to time and time again display so much ignorance of the real world?

SBB _is_ placing orders for state-of-the-art stock. In fact, the railway industry has trouble offering stuff that is modern enough for the SBB....
A lot of new rolling stock is being put in to service, and they have huge outstanding orders.
SBB is a incredibly good at enticing people to travel by train. Better than anyone else in Europe apparently. That's called "success" and it does come with its share of problems. Basically the situation is that although the SBB is putting new wheels on the tracks as fast as the industry can provide them this is not sufficient to cope with the increased demand. Hence life extention measures on older stock is needed.

That refurbished locomotive that was shown a few posts earlier fits in a well thought through concept.
The Canton of Zürich wants all S-Bahn trains to be accessible for people in wheelchairs. The solution the SBB has come up with is to order new trainsets with entrances at platform level. A lot of these new sets have entered service recently, and a lot more follow. However a lot of older sets are in service too, and these sets are only about 20 years old, so not ready for retirement by any means. For these sets SBB has bought new intermediate cars with low entrance, so that in each set one car will be accessible. Swapping out a car in each set however leads to a surplus of cars, and these will be formed in to push pull sets, using refurbished locomotives, so they can be used for peak hour trains over the next 20 years or so, when they will probably be retired, together with the locomotives.
It all makes good business sense.

And what you call "tricking schedules" is just plain common sense. Trying to make your operation more efficient at a lowest cost possible is not "tricking". It's something every industry does.
If you want to see obsession with shaving single minutes of schedules to optimize total performance, just have a look at the automible assembly industry...

Cancelling is not needed! Just slow'em down, like they do in Italy with hierarchized planning. If a faster train needs to pass, too bad, lower trains gotta spend time at stations idling to make room for the faster and more important trains.

One main source of delays for Italy - Switzerland trains is that in the Italian train hierarchy international trains actually come after local trains. So a Zürich - Milano EC has to make room for a delayed Como - Milano local...

Simplon tunnel has limited capacity at the moment. That's why there are so few international trains on that route also.

The biggest problem is however Trenitalia's complete disinterest in international services.

The main if not only reason is the second one. There were few EC CIS far before the Simplon fire.

One main source of delays for Italy - Switzerland trains is that in the Italian train hierarchy international trains actually come after local trains. So a Zürich - Milano EC has to make room for a delayed Como - Milano local...

No, it's false. They are the EC CIS to cause delays to Milano-Como-Chiasso S11 suburban trains, and not viceversa. When there are no EC CIS, the S11 are on usually on time.

No, it's false. They are the EC CIS to cause delays to Milano-Como-Chiasso S11 suburban trains, and not viceversa. When there are no EC CIS, the S11 are on usually on time.

I've actually witnessed this myself. S11 train leaves late. EC waiting on adjacent track gets delayed, and send down the line afterwards. Result: a 3 minute delay becomes a 20 minute delay.

The other problem is that Trenitalia seems to insist that a train arriving with a delay in Milano must leave with the same delay...

And that Trenitalia never gave the Cisalpino trains the importance they deserved is known. I found several references to the fact that Regional trains were given priority over Cisalpino trains in Milano.

Here is one:
"Die Cisalpino-Züge haben bei der Ein- und Ausfahrt im Bahnhof Mailand lediglich dritte Priorität. Sie müssen nicht nur den Hochgeschwindigkeitsflitzern den Vortritt lassen, sondern auch dem Regionalverkehr. Mit dem Ergebnis, dass sie selbst dann Verspätung haben, wenn sie pannenfrei unterwegs sind."

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/meinungen/dossier/kolumnen--kommentare/Der-Cisalpino-leidet-an-mehr-als-einem-NeigezugProblem/story/17717586

As far I know if the expected delay of the CIS doesn't exceed 7 minutes the S11 is delayed and kept halted in Chiasso until the CIS leaves. Sometimes the CIS doesn't manage to switch from one system to the other, delaying both itself and the S11.

In addition sometimes the S11 give way to the CIS in Albate Camerlata, waiting there for minutes and increasing the delay.

The Swiss railway management is cheap in the negative sense. "Revamped" old tracks, tricking schedules instead of focusing on performance, retrofitting trains instead of placing orders for state-of-the-art stock, single-lane "optmizd" tracks... Lot's of issues with Swiss rail management.

:cripes::cripes::cripes:

:cripes::cripes::cripes:

+1

Google "Rail" View on the Albula and Bernina lines: http://www.bluewin.ch/it/index.php/572,475743/Google__dopo_Street_View_anche_binari_view_su_Albula_e_Bernina/it/news/diversi/sda/

Google "Rail" View on the Albula and Bernina lines: http://www.bluewin.ch/it/index.php/572,475743/Google__dopo_Street_View_anche_binari_view_su_Albula_e_Bernina/it/news/diversi/sda/

Unfortunately not yet online... Have to wait a few months.

More pictures:

https://picasaweb.google.com/106600589255339906407/GoogleRhBTheAlbulaBerninaProjekt18102011HIGHRES?authkey=Gv1sRgCLHh_53Su4S3ZA#

I predict some unproductive evenings on Google Earth for me when those pictures go online. :)

Das arme Mädchen,gaaanz aleine vorne im Wind und

Wetter.:naughty:https://picasaweb.google.com/106600589255339906407/GoogleRhBTheAlbulaBerninaProjekt18102011HIGHRES?authkey=Gv1sRgCLHh_53Su4S3ZA#

U3LjH8hed9Q

UxIG-_TCBJY

IN the second video, at around 4:50, you see a Deutsche Bahn train departing with one of the carriages in a double deck style, is this a sleeping car or something?

Edit Ah, you can see it in the Part 1 'still'.

I think that's the restaurant car.

I don't see any double deck car at 4.50, in any video, but it may be one of the half-double deck sleeping car of CityNightLine (CNL). They have two levels of cabins on one side, linked by a passage on the other side at standard height. There is a stair each two cabin, and it is impossible to go from one cabin to another (except the adjacent one) without going via the intermediate deck.

I think he meant 5:40 and not 4:50.

Then it's the restaurant car of the ICE 1, that's also visible in the 1st vid. It's not a double deck car, it just has a raised roof to fit all the kitchen equipment. The 2nd row of windows are just like skylights, nothing more. It doesn't provide any panoramic views for example.

Great vids.

Zurich Hb seems like the best place to view so many different types of passenger trains in one station. Almost 60 tracks/platforms and the busiest in the world? Wow. Its a wonder how all those tracks (and trains) can fit onto an island sandwiched at the confluence of two rivers.

Any pics on the progress of the Weinbergtunnel?

Zürich HB will have 18 stub tracks and 8 through tracks in a few years (today 4 of the 8 through tracks are under construction, and there are 4 more temporary stub tracks).

It is not the busiest on the world but with 3000 trains and 300.000 passengers a day has more traffic than Milano Centrale.

For the Weinbergtunnel: www.durchmesserlinie.ch

Great vids.

Zurich Hb seems like the best place to view so many different types of passenger trains in one station.

A good place to watch trains is Othmarsingen, to the west of Zürich. At that place you not only get to see most of the passenger trains from Zürich to the west, but most freight on the Gotthard route too...

Zürich HB will have 18 stub tracks and 8 through tracks in a few years (today 4 of the 8 through tracks are under construction, and there are 4 more temporary stub tracks).

It is not the busiest on the world but with 3000 trains and 300.000 passengers a day has more traffic than Milano Centrale.

For the Weinbergtunnel: www.durchmesserlinie.ch

I recently visited the building site of the new underground station. It's quit impressive. Especially when you stand in a big cavern nowing there is an actual river running above you:

http://www.nzz.ch/images/durchmesserlinie_fullSize_1.8346383.1289479561.jpg

Once the new underground station is finished the current temporary tracks 51-54 will be removed.
Tracks 1 and 2 will be renumbered and become 21 and 22. Tracks 3-18 will keep their numbers (so there will no longer be a track 1 or 2, and tourists will no longer look for track to next to track 3, where it never was...)
The four new underground tracks will get number 31-34, and the four existing S-Bahn tracks (joew 21-24) will get numbers 41-44.

I think he meant 5:40 and not 4:50.

Then it's the restaurant car of the ICE 1, that's also visible in the 1st vid. It's not a double deck car, it just has a raised roof to fit all the kitchen equipment. The 2nd row of windows are just like skylights, nothing more. It doesn't provide any panoramic views for example.

Ah OK, thanks, So what's the Yellow large gantry you see when the Youtube poster pans back at :45 in Video #2 - Is it a Crane used for unloading Freight?

Ah OK, thanks, So what's the Yellow large gantry you see when the Youtube poster pans back at :45 in Video #2 - Is it a Crane used for unloading Freight?

No that's part of the building currently going on. It's a gantry that connects the (underground) building site with a staging area to the side. Concrete gets produced in that staging area (the materials are delivered by train) and then pumped to the site using pipes that run over that gantry.
You can see it very well on google maps.

CNN-report about Zürich HB:

Swiss trains run like clockwork: http://edition.cnn.com/video/?hpt=ieu_t2#/video/business/2011/11/01/gateway-swiss-punctuality-zurich.cnn

'Train-addicted' Swiss on track for rail revamp: http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/09/world/europe/zurich-rail-link/index.html

The Simplon Tunnel will be reopened tomorrow after the necessary reparation works caused by the fire in June this year.

Demain 18 novembre 2011, les CFF terminent les travaux de remise en état du tunnel du Simplon endommagé par l’incendie le 9 juin dernier. Au total, les réparations, qui se sont déroulées sans incident, auront coûté 12 millions. Dans le tunnel, les travaux se poursuivent avec la modernisation prévue avant l’incident. Ils débuteront au changement d’horaire et dureront jusqu’en 2014. L’horaire actuel reste valable jusqu’à la fin des travaux d’assainissement.

Read the whole communiqué de presse: CFF (http://www.cff.ch/groupe/medias/communiques.newsdetail.2011-11-1711_45_04.html)

There's also the new announcement of the schedules starting from 11th December.

Among other stuff, Basel and Paris will be linked using the TGV 2N2 (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_2N2) (two floors TGV).

Delémont (capital of the canton of Jura) will be linked with Paris in 1h30 less thanks to the opening of the high-speed railway line Rhine-Rhône.

The RER network of the city of Fribourg will start operating, initially linking the city with the city of Bulle (pop. 18,000), and these with Bern during peak hours.

Offer will be generally increased between and inside french-speaking cantons, as well as services towards Germany.

Only CFF's ETR610 will be used to link Basel-Bern-Milano, and travel time between Zurich and Milano will be increased by 30min for some services to increase punctuality (that's weird, Coccodrillo might know why, I guess it's due the shitty Cisalpino trainsets but I'm not sure).

Go to the official communiqué de presse to read about all details: CFF (http://www.cff.ch/groupe/medias/communiques.newsdetail.2011-11-1711_45_03.html) (german, french and italian only)

What a shame, padding schedules by 30 min to conceal lack of proper priority assignment (you always hold one lesser, regional trains to make way for international trains, and re-do schedules to accommodate long-distance trains before caring about local trains that can run anytime).

... and travel time between Zurich and Milano will be increased by 30min for some services to increase punctuality (that's weird, Coccodrillo might know why, I guess it's due the shitty Cisalpino trainsets but I'm not sure).


The main reason for the increased time is that that the ETR470 sets will gradually be pulled from service. Loco hauled service need more time on this route.

What a shame, padding schedules by 30 min to conceal lack of proper priority assignment (you always hold one lesser, regional trains to make way for international trains, and re-do schedules to accommodate long-distance trains before caring about local trains that can run anytime).

And again you demonstrate your lack of real knowledge when it comes to railways. SBB is very good at writing schedules, and the long distance trains are always schedules first, with regional trains scheduled around them. (That's the only way you can have good interconnection between regional and long distance services anyway).

The padding has nothing to do with priority asignment. The main reason is Trenitalia's inability to keep enough ETR470 available.
When the fleet was divided after the dissolution of Cissalpino 4 ETR470 sets went to SBB and 5 went to Trenitalia. At one time only 1 (one) of the 5 TI ETR470 sets was in working condition. At the moment all 4 SBB ETR470 sets are running, and 3 of the 5 TI sets. This has forced SBB to subsitute conventional trains on a semi-permanent basis this year.

So it has been decided that the ETR470 sets will be gradually removed from service as they reach 4.3 million km. Loco hauled trains will take over until the Gotthard Base Tunnel openens, at which time new HSTs, which the SBB will order any time now, will take over.
Loco hauled trains need more time however. Which is why the schedule has been lengthened. It's basically the schedule most Zürich - Milano services have been running at last year now made official...

Because of the lack of reliability of the ETR 470 some trains will be run with conventional (non tilting) stock on a different timetable. Conventional trains are only 10 to 15 minutes slower than tilting trains, but as lines both in Zürich and Milan are quite congested there are many constraints that oblige to lengthen the timetable by 38 minutes (trains to Milan can leave Zürich only at 09 and 31 past each hour, trains to Zürich can leave Milan only at 10 and 40). These constraints will cause a lot of problems when the two base tunnels will open in 2019.

What a shame, padding schedules by 30 min to conceal lack of proper priority assignment (you always hold one lesser, regional trains to make way for international trains, and re-do schedules to accommodate long-distance trains before caring about local trains that can run anytime).

Beside what has been said by K, the timetable of Zürich-Milano trains has been planned with too optimism. When there is less traffic (basically on Sunday: less regional and less freight trains) the ETR often manage to be on time. But, that's obvious for everyone except you, canceling 4 regional and 4 freight trains to make way for a single EuroCity is not considered an option.

Not only some train timetables have been lengthened, but two ave been canceled: there will be no EC trains from 11 to 15 from each terminus :bash:

SBB says that they don't have enough trains, but that's not true: even if there is a lack of tilting trains, there would be enough conventional locomotives and coaches to reintroduce even the hourly service eliminated in december 2008.

===================

Intermodal transport on the Viafier Retica presented in Rumantsch: http://www.rtr.ch/home/utensils/players/video.cd3c8400-f43d-4375-a851-67612c183cb9.html?/home/televisiun/emissiuns/Telesguard-sin-SF-1/2011/11/20111115-1740-Telesguard-sin-SF-1

^^ During that time, can't they take a train to Bern and change for Zürich?

^^ During that time, can't they take a train to Bern and change for Zürich?

The timetable over the Simplon has some inexplicable gaps too. Last time I traveled Milano - Bern I actually went via Arth-Goldau and Luzern...

trains to Zürich can leave Milan only at 10 and 40

I find it rather odd that trains can only leave Milano Centrale on times that are a multiple of 5min past the hour.. But that's trenitalia for you.

The constraints at Zürich will be lessened in the future as the new underground station opens. That will free up capacity on the terminal tracks. That with some improvements on Zürich - Thalwyl and Zug - Arth Goldau should hopefully mean that we get faster trains somewhere after 2017.

SBB says that they don't have enough trains, but that's not true: even if there is a lack of tilting trains, there would be enough conventional locomotives and coaches to reintroduce even the hourly service eliminated in december 2008.


Are their really enough conventional coaches? I thought that quite a few former international coaches have lost their permission to run abroad after the last revision. SBB prefers to use them domestically mostly.

The timetable over the Simplon has some inexplicable gaps too. Last time I traveled Milano - Bern I actually went via Arth-Goldau and Luzern...

There are not enough ETR 610, and it is possible that grouping trains in three batches maximizes the number of trips.

Are their really enough conventional coaches? I thought that quite a few former international coaches have lost their permission to run abroad after the last revision. SBB prefers to use them domestically mostly.

There are hundreds of Bpm RIC available, and some Stadler Flirt. If only they wanted...

^^ Why not make Chiasse a huge international terminal, build a nice terminal there, 100% covered, and then just cut all trains in Chiasso, so that instead of trying to impose their way of doing business over Italy, the socialistic railway management of SBB can operate as they want until Chiasso, then let other operators take traffic Chiasso - Milano?

^^ Why not make Chiasse a huge international terminal, build a nice terminal there, 100% covered, and then just cut all trains in Chiasso, so that instead of trying to impose their way of doing business over Italy, the socialistic railway management of SBB can operate as they want until Chiasso, then let other operators take traffic Chiasso - Milano?

If there was a way to measure the degree in which a railway is socialist, I think that Trenitalia would end up being one of the more "socialist" railways in Europe, and SBB one of the least.

Now, this is not about SBB imposing their way of oding business on other countries. Notice how SBB has not problem cooperating with Austria, with Germany and with France. It's only with Italy that there are large issues. Issues exist also between Italy and all it's other neighbors. So I'd guess it's Trenitalia that needs to get its act together.
That Trenitalia can't keep enough sets of an _Italian_ build train available to keep up its' part of the bargain has nothing to do with SBB management...

There are hundreds of Bpm RIC available,


Most of those RIC Bpm can't run abroad anymore. They also are not really up to the current standard for international trains. And SBB needs them desperately for domestic services.


and some Stadler Flirt. If only they wanted...

There are very few of those Flirts that are actually allowed in Italy. SBB is using some of the Tilo flirts for services from Geneva to France...

There are very few of those Flirts that are actually allowed in Italy.
Normally SBB Filrts are only equipped to 15kV~, aren't they?

The Bpm RIC are certainly not comfortable, but I would still prefer them rather than waiting in queue on the Italian A8-A9 or in Milan's streets.

There would be enough Flirts to, at least, restore the EC CIS 18/19 between Milan and Bellinzona (or, at least, Chiasso).

The Bpm RIC are certainly not comfortable, but I would still prefer them rather than waiting in queue on the Italian A8-A9 or in Milan's streets.



The tunnel and the Chiasso border are the most congested points anyway.

Not on weekdays 7-9 and 16-20.

The tunnel and the Chiasso border are the most congested points anyway.

Maybe for Italian definitions of congestions, but not for Swiss definitions of congestion.
SBB seems to be able to run a lot more trains on the same infrastructure. Something ecnomists call "a higher return on capital employed" and something you seem to insist on calling "socialism"...

He's referring to the motorway.

Normally SBB Filrts are only equipped to 15kV~, aren't they?

SBB has several versions. The Flirts they orders for Tilo can run under 15Kv AC and 3KV DC. They also ordered Flirts for services from Basel to France that can run under 25Kv.
Some of the Tilo flirts are running on Geneva - LaPlaine, as running a 3KvDC set under 1.5Kv DC is not really a problem if you're willing to live with a bit less acceleration.

He's referring to the motorway.

My mistake...

CNN's The Gateway has a series on the Swiss network (centered around Zürich HB).

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/09/world/europe/zurich-rail-link/index.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/23/world/europe/feeding-zurich-station/
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/business/2011/11/01/gateway-swiss-punctuality-zurich.cnn

Apparently there are plans to increase Geneva's main station capacity to meet passanger traffic increase from the CEVA line (under construction), that can already be absorved by the station, and traffic from the rest of Switzerland, and specially with Lausanne with whom number of passangers has doubled in the past 10 years (from 25K to 50K) and expected to double again in the next 10 years to 100K daily passangers using the corridor. This would be done mainly by adding two more lines at the expense of some buildings next to the station.

This is a medium-term project not expected to be built before 15 years. Total cost: Between 800 and 1,000 million.

Source: Tribune de Genève (http://www.tdg.ch/geneve/actu/megaprojet-extension-attend-gare-cornavin-2011-11-30)

There is another option which is building a new main station in La Praille (there is already a secondary station there), but that would cost a lot of money as it means not just building the station itself but also moving away the freight station (la Praille is that), reorganise public transportation in the city, building more lines between that station and current Cornavin's station etc.

^^


What they could do in the short term is integrate the "French" part of the station in the Swiss part, so to have more operational flexibility. Is there any mention of that?

I find it rather odd that trains can only leave Milano Centrale on times that are a multiple of 5min past the hour.. But that's trenitalia for you...

If there was a way to measure the degree in which a railway is socialist, I think that Trenitalia would end up being one of the more "socialist" railways in Europe, and SBB one of the least...


Maybe for Italian definitions of congestions, but not for Swiss definitions of congestion.
SBB seems to be able to run a lot more trains on the same infrastructure. Something ecnomists call "a higher return on capital employed" and something you seem to insist on calling "socialism"...

Do you suffer of italian phobia?
Be relaxed.

Do you suffer of italian phobia?
Be relaxed.

I don't suffer from Italophobia. I wouldn't know why. However, I do disagree with people (one in particular) who seem to think that Italy is the benchmark when it comes to things railway. Since there can't be a higher contrast in Europe than that between the Swiss and the Italian railways I'm a bit skeptical of that claim...

Road-to-rail policy to miss goals

The government says the country’s targets for a substantial reduction in the number of heavy trucks crossing the Alps will not be reached.
In a statement on Friday, the cabinet said there would be 250,000 more trucks this year than the goal of 1 million, and that the target of a maximum of 650,000 trucks by 2018 was unrealistic.



Swiss voters approved a constitutional amendment in 1994 introducing the 650,000 limit. It was to have come into force in 2009 and was later postponed to 2018 – two years after the opening of the Gotthard Base rail tunnel.

At the time of the vote, the Swiss rallied around inhabitants of alpine valleys who considered trucks a major risk to the environment and their health, since harmful emissions are trapped by the valley walls.

One aim of building the tunnel along with the other major transalpine rail link, the Lötschberg tunnel - which opened in 2007 – was to transfer freight from road to rail in order to achieve the targets.

In its statement, the government said however that if it had not been for the opening of the Lötschberg, increased fees for transalpine vehicles and the liberalisation of rail freight, there would be 600,000 more trucks crossing the Alps each year than there are today.



No hefty hike
It added that additional measures will be needed to improve the attractiveness of rail, but only a hefty hike in truck fees – which agreements with the European Union do not allow – would enable Switzerland to achieve its 2018 target.

In a first reaction, Alpine Initiative, the lobby group behind the road-to-rail initiative, said it was “disappointed” with the government’s report, calling on Switzerland to enter serious negotiations with the EU to introduce quotas on transalpine freight.

Alpine Initiative believes this kind of system, known as the Alpine Crossing Exchange mechanism, would enable Switzerland to meet its targets.

“The government is aware of the medicine needed to cure the transit madness on our roads, but it doesn’t want to use it,” said Fabio Pedrina, Alpine Initiative president.



Quota system
The cabinet did emphasise in its report that the Alpine Crossing Exchange was the only other way - besides increasing fees significantly – to achieve Switzerland’s targets. However, neither approach had found favour in Brussels, it added.

For its part, Astag, Switzerland’s road hauliers’ association, said the government report was recognition that the country’s policy of transferring goods from road to rail has been a failure.

“Despite compulsory measures by the state, which have made road transport unilaterally and massively more expensive, in most cases rail is not competitive,” Astag said on its website.

It said Switzerland’s policy of transferring freight from road to rail had “failed conclusively”.
Astag wants to see a speedy change of policy away from state-imposed restrictions on road freight, towards “genuine cooperation” between the different freight carriers.

The next step for the government will be to propose a plan next year on how it can tap the full potential of the system of levies on heavy goods vehicles.

The agreement with the EU foresees a maximum fee of SFr325 ($347) for a journey from Basel - on Switzerland’s northwestern border with Germany and France - to Chiasso on the southeastern border with Italy. The price is currently only SFr288.

In 2010, there was an increase in both road and rail freight transported across the country, with rail taking 64.1 per cent of the total as opposed to 62.6 per cent the previous year.

Rail & road report from the San Gottardo region.

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/4361/pc180007c.jpg
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/2579/pc180011.jpg
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9178/pc180021.jpg
http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/2074/pc180027.jpg
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/7387/pc180029.jpg
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/2315/pc180034.jpg
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/8478/pc180035.jpg
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3796/pc180041.jpg
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/2102/pc180049.jpg
http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/5262/pc180051.jpg
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/3945/pc180054.jpg
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/9032/pc180057x.jpg
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/4945/pc180062.jpg
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/5650/pc180067.jpg
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/745/pc180071.jpg
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3197/pc180073i.jpg
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/9199/pc180078.jpg
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3885/pc180090.jpg

This is the best thing about the Bpm RIC, windows that can open even in the winter so you can stick your head out and take pictures.

Thanks for the report! :)

I don't know how long they will last in service. There is only one left in every standard IR rake now (1 luggage van, 1 Apm EC, 1 Apm Panoramic, 3 Bpm EC, 1 Bpm RIC), a few more when extra coaches are added like on my train.

This is the best thing about the Bpm RIC, windows that can open even in the winter

Trains whose windows open are so 1970 IMHO. The word of modernity is forced ventilation (with or without heating/cooling, doesn't matter) and sealed windows that reduce noise greatly.

Not on touristic trains like the one I traveled on.

Not on touristic trains like the one I traveled on.

They might take an example from the RhB here. The new trains ordered for the Chur - st. Moritz service will have a photographers lounge, with opening windows. The rest of the train will be airconditioned, as is now the norm.

So the right thing for the SBB to do on this route would be to continue to offer a mixture of car types.

I prefer trains with opening windows too. In Spring/Summer/Fall it's great to open them and feel the air coming in, specially when travelling around mountains! I don't mind the airconditioned, I don't think it's really needed in Switzerland if you can open windows except for some few days in the year. Unfortunately they are disappearing, altough they are still common in here for regional services to Geneva and Valais for example.

I prefer trains with opening windows too. In Spring/Summer/Fall it's great to open them and feel the air coming in, specially when travelling around mountains! I don't mind the airconditioned, I don't think it's really needed in Switzerland if you can open windows except for some few days in the year. Unfortunately they are disappearing, altough they are still common in here for regional services to Geneva and Valais for example.

With forced ventilation, e.g., an external fan that forces air out of the cabin and an air intake, you can mechanically force air from outside to circulate within the cabin, with reduced noise and no windy sensation (the kind that bothers you if you want to read, use your cellphone or else). Indeed, almost all trains systems with weathering systems can operate that way when the cooling and heating are both off, without the passengers even knowing it.

Wind is a nuisance, both for the mechanical effect and the noise.

They might take an example from the RhB here. The new trains ordered for the Chur - st. Moritz service will have a photographers lounge, with opening windows. The rest of the train will be airconditioned, as is now the norm.

So the right thing for the SBB to do on this route would be to continue to offer a mixture of car types.

But that is a line branded as touristic (though serving regular traffic as well). Just a tiny fraction of all rail tracks in Switzerland are branded as such. In that sector, it makes sense to provide such cars (preferably, charging a hefty surcharge), but on regular ones, it makes no sense at all.

with reduced noise and no windy sensation (the kind that bothers you if you want to read, use your cellphone or else).

Wind is a nuisance, both for the mechanical effect and the noise.

Why should it bother you? as I said I prefer to read next to one of these open windows in summer or spring when the natural breeze hits you and you can smell the nature. You know, there's a world out of your bubble, and it is fantastic, I highly recommend you to go out and check it by yourself.

But it's fine, it was just a personal comment of mine stating my preferences. You should also try to speak for yourself instead of generalizing because it might happen that not everyone agrees with you.

^^ I like the outdoors and I'm quite an experienced trekker. However, (public) transportation is not meant to be "fun", to connect you with nature or else. It is meant to be as clean, aseptic and impersonal and neutral as possible, especially if it is subsidized.

That is why I think trains with windows are worse than those with sealed windows with controlled temperature.

But that is a line branded as touristic (though serving regular traffic as well). Just a tiny fraction of all rail tracks in Switzerland are branded as such. In that sector, it makes sense to provide such cars (preferably, charging a hefty surcharge), but on regular ones, it makes no sense at all.

But the slow trains over the Gotthard are "touristic" too. We are talking the IR here, not the fast IC/EC trains. Those trains will dissapear in the base tunnel where you won't see much scenery anyway. The IR train will continue going over the old line, to serve the communities along its route, and to server people who are not in a hurry, but do want to look at the landscape. Tourists, in other words.
So having a mixture of cars, a few of them with opening windows is a good idea on such services.

^^ I like the outdoors and I'm quite an experienced trekker. However, (public) transportation is not meant to be "fun", to connect you with nature or else. It is meant to be as clean, aseptic and impersonal and neutral as possible, especially if it is subsidized.


Why do I have the impression that "aseptic" and "impersonal" is also how you want life to be...

Trains whose windows open are so 1970 IMHO. The word of modernity is forced ventilation (with or without heating/cooling, doesn't matter) and sealed windows that reduce noise greatly.
Killjoy

I prefer trains with opening windows too. In Spring/Summer/Fall it's great to open them and feel the air coming in, specially when travelling around mountains! I don't mind the airconditioned, I don't think it's really needed in Switzerland if you can open windows except for some few days in the year. Unfortunately they are disappearing, altough they are still common in here for regional services to Geneva and Valais for example.

One reason for the disappearance of opening windows is higher speeds. You really don't want opening windows at 200kph, and the number of long distance services where you can avoid running at that speed is going to be quite limited.
And in fact, modern airconditioned vehicles consume less energy...

But I hope they keep the Gotthard IRs railfan friendly :-)

^^ They could do like they did with the "Glacier Express" route: create a handful of daily trains that cost a lot more with special perks and panoramic cars with huge window panels that allow sightseeing. Problem solved.

^^ There are already first class panoramic cars.

^^ They could do like they did with the "Glacier Express" route: create a handful of daily trains that cost a lot more with special perks and panoramic cars with huge window panels that allow sightseeing. Problem solved.

Quite a few tourists and photographers avoid these trains on purpose... It's mostly Asian tourists that don't know better that travel on those trains.
I do like the panorama cars though. I sometimes take the slower IR over the Gotthard in order to travel in the Ap car.

RhB in the mean time offers cars on some of its trains that don't even have windows:
http://www.pontresina.ch/typo3temp/pics/af88d675d3.jpg

You make money accommodating the differences in requirements your customers have...

One reason for the disappearance of opening windows is higher speeds. You really don't want opening windows at 200kph

There is an opening window on the doors of British intercity trains, at 125mph. You can stick your head out the window or throw a health and safety inspector out of it:). Not much of our transport system is clean or aseptic either.

There is an opening window on the doors of British intercity trains, at 125mph. You can stick your head out the window or throw a health and safety inspector out of it:). Not much of our transport system is clean or aseptic either.

That't the door you pull down in order to open it by using the handle on the outside, right? But does a health and safety inspector fit through it?

The thing though is that opening windows are not very good for aerodynamics. Smooth sides are more important than a sharp end for aerodynamic drag on a train (the pointy nose of the TGV is mostly to mitigate shock waves when entering tunnels and crossing other trains).
On cars not opening the window saves more energy than the airconditioning costs. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same with trains.

:troll:

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/138/berneroberland13082.jpg

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/5817/brb8.jpg

that's Brienz Rothorn Bahn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brienz_Rothorn_Bahn) and the pictured blue mass is lake Brienz :p

So beautifull... thx a lot

WOW!! what a picture!!!

:troll:

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/138/berneroberland13082.jpg

The blue thing is not sky, but a lake? Wow.

It looks like the CFF think they have had enough problems with pendolino
trains. They apparently decided to abandon that technology and to revert
to conventional, loco-hauled trains, for the Zurich-Milano line.

http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/suisse/story/Les-CFF-renoncent-aux-trains-inclinables-26203282

(Sorry for the news article in french)

There were discussions between the Belgian, Luxemburg, French and Swiss
railways to buy a set of pendolino trains for the Brussels-Zurich line. Works
even started on the Brussels-Luxemburg line to adapt it so that pendolino
trains can use it at higher speed. I suppose that this will be abandoned too...

It looks like the CFF think they have had enough problems with pendolino
trains. They apparently decided to abandon that technology and to revert
to conventional, loco-hauled trains, for the Zurich-Milano line.

http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/suisse/story/Les-CFF-renoncent-aux-trains-inclinables-26203282

It's not unexpected, but the article isn't entirely correct either.

There are really several things going on here.
SBB is completely fed up with the reliability of it's ETR 470 sets. (The ETR 610 sets however do fine). On top of that Trenitalia is no longer making any ETR610 sets available for Switzerland services, and has trouble even keeping one of its ETR470 sets in working order. Swiss sets also consistently get vandalized if they spend even one night in Milano...
Currently alls Swiss ETR610 sets run on Simplon services. Gotthard services are a mixture of SBB and Trenitalia (when available) ETR470, but many get replaced by an ICN service, forcing all passengers to change trains in Chiasso.

I suspect that soon SBB will throw in the towel and stop cooperating with Trenitalia, as everyone else already has. Maybe they should cooperate with NTV in stead. SNCF owns part of NTV, and with SNCF the SBB has no trouble whatsoever.

At the same time SBB was already in the process of collecting offers for a new batch of high speed trains for international services. For that they wanted tilting trains that could do 300kph. There was just one problem: Nobody is building such trains...
So they had to change their requirements. They decided to drop the tilting requirement. They probably will even just buy 249kph trains, as they are cheaper. (I suspect the Siemens ICx might have a chance here). We'll know more when the tender gets published.

Until the new sets are delivered they will indeed go to loco hauled for a while. Travel times on Zürich - Milano will not be reduced significantly in the first years after the opening of the Gotthard tunnel because of the engineering works on the Arth - Goldau to Zug line. Trains will have to run via Rotkreuz and reverse there for about two years.


There were discussions between the Belgian, Luxemburg, French and Swiss
railways to buy a set of pendolino trains for the Brussels-Zurich line. Works
even started on the Brussels-Luxemburg line to adapt it so that pendolino
trains can use it at higher speed. I suppose that this will be abandoned too...

The SBB is not abandoning tilting trains altogether. The ICN and ETR 610 works, and the new double deckers have a limited tilting ability too.
A possible scenario would be for the new trainsets SBB is about to be order to be dedicated to services to Italy, and the ETR610 could then be made available for services on Brussel - Luxemburg - Basel.

The SBB is not abandoning tilting trains altogether. The ICN and ETR 610 works, and the new double deckers have a limited tilting ability too.
A possible scenario would be for the new trainsets SBB is about to be order to be dedicated to services to Italy, and the ETR610 could then be made available for services on Brussel - Luxemburg - Basel.

The plan was to buy a few sets in common (SNCB/CFL/SNCF/SBB) for 3
services per day between Brussels and Zurich. Re-allocating the ETR610
for that service would probably require some re-engineering, but at least
I suppose they have the right power feeding systems in place (3 kV DC,
25 kV AC, 15 kV AC).

It's a pity that ICN sets could not be ordered anymore, they were certainly
the best tilting trains ever engineered.

Is there some comparative information available about the reliability of the
ICN and ETR610 sets ? Thinks like faults per 100.000 km, maximum time
between scheduled maintenance operations, and the like ?

For the time being, the services between Brussels and Zurich are a little
bit disappointing in terms of performance - although their incorporation in
the TER200 Alsace scheme since Dec 12 should make things a little bit
better. Combined advantages of a titling train set (better acceleration,
better top speed in curvy sections like in the Ardennes) would make that
service much more attractive.

It's a pity that ICN sets could not be ordered anymore, they were certainly
the best tilting trains ever engineered.


Oh, I think Bombardier could still build them, with a few modifications to comply with the TSI norms.


Is there some comparative information available about the reliability of the
ICN and ETR610 sets ? Thinks like faults per 100.000 km, maximum time
between scheduled maintenance operations, and the like ?

I'l have to inquire about that.


For the time being, the services between Brussels and Zurich are a little
bit disappointing in terms of performance - although their incorporation in
the TER200 Alsace scheme since Dec 12 should make things a little bit
better. Combined advantages of a titling train set (better acceleration,
better top speed in curvy sections like in the Ardennes) would make that
service much more attractive.

I actually never travel that route anymore, preferring to go via Germany...

The problem the Intercap scheme faces is that between Metz and Strassbourg it would be convenient to use the LGV-Est. For that the trainsets would however need to be able to reach 300kph. Nobody builds 300kph tilting sets... So using tilting sets means that time gained between Brussel and Luxemburg gets lost again in France.
At the moment the time advantage of running the ECs at TER200 speeds is btw entirely lost in Basel...

The new trains will be able to run also in Germany, even if for Zuerich-Muenchen services some ICN may be converted to run also on DB network.

On top of that Trenitalia is no longer making any ETR610 sets available for Switzerland services, and has trouble even keeping one of its ETR470 sets in working order. Swiss sets also consistently get vandalized if they spend even one night in Milano...

It is said that some pieces of one FFS set were stolen one night in Milan...and one can wonder these thieves were so interested in a particular device used only in a particular type of train...

.. Nobody builds 300kph tilting sets...

N700 Shinkansen sets tilt and reach 300 KPH. Would be nice to see those crossing the European Continent.

Oh, I think Bombardier could still build them, with a few modifications to comply with the TSI norms.


Not sure about that at all : those sets were build by a consortium of
Swiss companies whose parts have been acquired by larger groups that
are now competitors. So re-forming the same consortium again might be
impossible today. Could Bombardier alone still build them ?

So using tilting sets means that time gained between Brussel and Luxemburg gets lost again in France.


Given that the LGV Est is not that much loaded, and that it only concerns
a short stretch at the very end of the line, I don't think RFF would object
to selling 6 paths per day timed at 250 km/h only.

Also, I don't have the track plans in front of me, but will it be possible to
enter the LGV Est near Metz in the direction of Strasbourg ? Knowing how
french people are Paris-centric, I would expect the LGV entries/exits to be
oriented towards Paris but not otherwise...

N700 Shinkansen sets tilt and reach 300 KPH. Would be nice to see those crossing the European Continent.

Indeed - japanese rolling stock on continental Europe is still a very rare sight
today. I vaguely remember electric locos in Spain, but apart from that ?
Those sets look awful, though.

But there is a big objection : it's not the right kind of tilting.

From wikipedia : N700 series trains have a maximum speed of 300 km/h
(186 mph), and tilting of up to one degree allows the trains to maintain
270 km/h (168 mph) even on 2,500 m (8,200 ft) radius curves that
previously had a maximum speed of 255 km/h (158 mph).

This is OK for reaching 300 km/h on a line that was designed for 270 only,
but will do nothing to accelerate a train on a conventional line, where
tilting angles need to be larger than that.

Not sure about that at all : those sets were build by a consortium of
Swiss companies whose parts have been acquired by larger groups that
are now competitors. So re-forming the same consortium again might be
impossible today. Could Bombardier alone still build them ?

I believe that the SIG developed electromechanical tilt system (also used afaik on the Virgin Pendolinos in the UK) is now owned by Alstom. But Bombardier has it's own system.


Also, I don't have the track plans in front of me, but will it be possible to
enter the LGV Est near Metz in the direction of Strasbourg ? Knowing how
french people are Paris-centric, I would expect the LGV entries/exits to be
oriented towards Paris but not otherwise...

It will be possible for trains to join the line at Baudrecourt in the direction of Strassbourg. Have a look here;
http://www.lgv-est.com/medias/pdf/medias1326.pdf

The ICN trainsets weren't built by Bombardier alone. Alongside the noses of each trainset, 3 names can be read: Bombardier, Alstom, Pininfarina.

Bombardier and Alstom can co-operate just fine, if there's a need for it.

Clearing the MTGN touristic line: http://www.tsr.ch/video/info/journal-continu/3696425-le-deblayage-de-la-ligne-des-rochers-de-naye-vd.html

If there was a way to measure the degree in which a railway is socialist, I think that Trenitalia would end up being one of the more "socialist" railways in Europe, and SBB one of the least.

Now, this is not about SBB imposing their way of oding business on other countries. Notice how SBB has not problem cooperating with Austria, with Germany and with France. It's only with Italy that there are large issues. Issues exist also between Italy and all it's other neighbors. So I'd guess it's Trenitalia that needs to get its act together.
That Trenitalia can't keep enough sets of an _Italian_ build train available to keep up its' part of the bargain has nothing to do with SBB management...

Everybody is having troubles with FS. That's why ÖBB and DB decided on a colaboration for the Brenner instead of working together with the Italians. As a consequence Italy banned ÖBB/DB trains from stopping in some stations. :lol:

But there is a big objection : it's not the right kind of tilting.

From wikipedia : N700 series trains have a maximum speed of 300 km/h
(186 mph), and tilting of up to one degree allows the trains to maintain
270 km/h (168 mph) even on 2,500 m (8,200 ft) radius curves that
previously had a maximum speed of 255 km/h (158 mph).

Well it would allow 160km/h instead of 155km/h ( :banana: ), but I'm pretty certain that the 1 degree maximum is because there was no need for it to be more at this time on the Shinkansen. I doubt the Japanese would have too much trouble taking the same design to 2 or 3 degrees albeit changing the body shape a little (but they'd need to do that anyway I'd assume?) and that would be starting to make a material difference.

I can't see a long term problem with developing full-tilt full high speed trains in the future.

The N700 uses active suspension for tilting, it uses the air suspension and not an active pneumatic or electrical mechanism that the Pendolino uses. This kind of tilting limits the maximum tilt to 2 degrees at most. Seeing that the N700 only has 1 degrees of tilt it shows that this technology is still limited at higher speeds. Although the newer E5 Shinkansen already has 1.5 degrees of tilt, it's becoming more, but not more then 2 degrees.

For now the industry isn't developing a full tilt high speed train, simply stating that it's not possible. And with the growing number of high speed lines opening in Europe it doesn't look like it will ever be economically viable. Why invests big money in a system that is technically very complex that might not even be needed in the long run.


ps.
The N700 is only ugly until you see it for real.

Rail & road report from the San Gottardo region.


Very very nice report! Stalvedro,Piotta,Goeschenen.... If you don't know:

http://www.gottardo-wanderweg.ch/it/main/sentiero-nord/escursioni/

And my favourite steamline Dampfbahn Furka-Bergstrecke:
http://kattler.dk/Furka_Bergstrecke.html

http://www.bahnbilder.ch/search?location=1257

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=305762

Thank you!

The Albulabahn, between Preda and Bergün at the end of 2011.

I haven't been in Bergün recently, the station is completely changed.

K16L8bDf-1o


I hope the Bahnmuseum Albula will be a success.

I can't see a long term problem with developing full-tilt full high speed trains in the future.

But is there a need for it?

The SBB wanted to buy such trains, so you could there's a small market for it. But it's a market that I don't think will be growing in the future

The SBB wanted to buy such trains, so you could there's a small market for it. But it's a market that I don't think will be growing in the future

SBB have abandoned that idea. The reason SBB originally wanted tilting trains that went 300kph is that they wanted one type of train to be used on all their international routes. They never intended to run at 300kph with tilt. Nobody however offered them one, so the idea was schelved. SBB is actually now looking for 249 kph trains, as they will be a lot cheaper, and intends to just keep using French TGVs on the routes to France.

There really is not much point in having active tilt at 300kph, as you won't be able to use it anywhere anyway. Tilting doesn't really permit a train to run faster. What determines how fast a train can go on a curve depends solely on how much cant deficiency the train and the infrastructure allows. The tilting is only used for the comfort of the passengers...

Clearing some railways near Andermat (Gotthard):

http://la1.rsi.ch/home/networks/la1/telegiornale?po=35c03a5f-8dd3-476f-9f9a-70b2b56351f7&pos=6387eb13-60ac-4420-889d-d20c94761f07&date=22.01.2012&stream=low#tabEdition

Clearing some railways near Andermat (Gotthard):

http://la1.rsi.ch/home/networks/la1/telegiornale?po=35c03a5f-8dd3-476f-9f9a-70b2b56351f7&pos=6387eb13-60ac-4420-889d-d20c94761f07&date=22.01.2012&stream=low#tabEdition

DAAAAAAAAAAAAMN...

thanks for video :)

DAAAAAAAAAAAAMN...

thanks for video :)
I have sometimes wondered how well USA-style rotary snowplows would work in the Swiss Alps.

:yes:

Mike

I have sometimes wondered how well USA-style rotary snowplows would work in the Swiss Alps.


RhB has a still working steam powered rotary snowplow. Probably one of the few remaining worldwide.
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6156/6169421356_0a4a2e910f.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhaetischebahn/6169421356/)
Dampfschleuder (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhaetischebahn/6169421356/) by rhaetischebahn (http://www.flickr.com/people/rhaetischebahn/), on Flickr

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6174/6168887099_89069d8b8c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhaetischebahn/6168887099/)
Dampffahrten (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhaetischebahn/6168887099/) by rhaetischebahn (http://www.flickr.com/people/rhaetischebahn/), on Flickr

Nowadays it's mostly these snowthrowers that keep the Berninabahn open in winter:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Xrotmt_954-Alp_Gruem.JPG

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6174/6168887099_89069d8b8c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhaetischebahn/6168887099/)
Dampffahrten (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhaetischebahn/6168887099/) by rhaetischebahn (http://www.flickr.com/people/rhaetischebahn/), on Flickr


This is so awesome!

Stuck in snow: http://www.albulamodell.ch/php5/wbb3/index.php?page=Thread&postID=70213#post70213 (clic to see other photos)

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/6116/ese3117.jpg

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/6883/ese3123.jpg

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9079/ese3135.jpg

I love Swiss railroads. Would absolutely love to work there in the snow. Hopefully one day maybe... crossing fingers

Now the SBB won't be ordering new tilting trains it has come up with a plan to use the new Double Deck IC trains that will come into service in 2014 to Stuttgart and München.
http://www.tagblatt.ch/nachrichten/politik/schweiz/tb-in/art120101,2837804

For the trains to München the plan is to extend the hourly service from Geneva to St. Gallen every other hour to München. This is only possible from 2016, but only if the electrification works are completed by then and if the trains with the new bogies with "Wankkompensation" are approved in Germany.

What is "wankkompensation"? Does it has to do with cant deficiency?

Yes.

It's basically a tilting mechanism.

This is what Bombardier has to say about it:

"This innovative system ensures the compensation of a carbody’s natural roll movement, integrated into the existing secondary suspension."

"Reduced mechanical complexity: a reduced mechanical complexity is achieved by the mechatronic multifunctional setup of the system, which allows for a compact design with short wheel base, even with integrated drive system. The system cinematic provides fail-safe behavior and allows for a wide carbody design with a first class space comfort even for double deck coaches."
http://www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/sustainability/technology/flexx-tronic-technology

The system compensates the centrifugal forces that pull the car body out in a turn.

What is "wankkompensation"? Does it has to do with cant deficiency?

Its basically tilt compensation. When high train carriages, like double deck coaches, go through a curve they will tend to lean outwards. This limits the permitted speed in curves as you cannot allow trains to get out of profile.
The "Wankkompensator" is basically a sort of active suspension that counteracts this, and makes sure that the train stay perfectly upright, even in curves. That allows for a gain in speed. SBB wants to cut of 6 minutes of Bern - Lausanne so that Lausanne can become a system hub too. That and other speed gains will mean that from about 2016 onwards Eastern Switzerland will be half an hour closer to Western Switzerland.

^^ Cool engineering system.

The part about the schedule is hideous, though, as always: such a project is justifiable irrespective of the situation in Lausanne, Bern, Chur, Skt. Moritz or St. Gallen.

The part about the schedule is hideous, though, as always

What is your problem? You are against a company trying to maximize its profits by offering the most value to its customers it can?

What is your problem? You are against a company trying to maximize its profits by offering the most value to its customers it can?

I am totally anti-monopolist except on very core state functions, transportation is not one of them,

I am totally anti-monopolist except on very core state functions, transportation is not one of them,

This has nothing to do with that. You just seem to forget that that you are pro market and pro properly run enterprises when the result doesn't fit your agenda.

SBB does not have a monopoly in transportation, far from that. It just tries to do as well as it can, and is succeeding.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/construction-of-schaffhausen-s-bahn-begins.html

Oberalp route (again). In the last photo the road is somewhere under the snow to the right of the railway. My car train was empty, with only 3 cars and 6 passengers. There are four car trains per day per direction, plus a regional train every hour.

http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/564/img1557j.jpg
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2769/img1575pr.jpg
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/6164/img1584n.jpg
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/6218/img1585i.jpg
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4919/img1589d.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4546/img1599d.jpg
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/6425/img1623xt.jpg

^^ Is that a typical winter's snowfall depicted or is it more than usual?

^^ Is that a typical winter's snowfall depicted or is it more than usual?

Currently we are seeing a lot more snow than usual in the mountains. There are places that have already seen more than 3m this winter.
One problem facing transportation in the mountains is that the winter has (until this week) been quite mild, but very "wet". So lots of snow, but because of the mild temperatures the snow has not frozen to the ground beneath it, and so moves quite easily. So there are lots of avalanches.

^^ Variable gauge motor bogies would me more expensive and difficult to build. Beside that, it is hoped to develop a variant of these boogies with rack wheel to be used to brake the train on steepest sections (but not very soon - until then, and maybe forever, these trains will not run on the rack part of the line).

so where should it be implemented? Interlaken-Montreux?

Yes. The previous idea of laying a third rail between Zweisimmen and Interlaken (so to have a double gauge line) has been abandoned. It is hoped to extend the service to Lucerne, but to do that the problem of the rack sections must be solved. But I doubt this will happen.

Very beautifulhttp://www.collegefun4u.com/track.php?u=4

so where should it be implemented? Interlaken-Montreux?

Yes. See here (http://www.goldenpass.ch/transgoldenpass_projet_en).

I wonder if this system could also for example be used for services directly from Zürich airport to st. Moritz.

Merchandise rail transport increased in 2010 by 2%, compared to a decrease of -14% in 2009 due to the economic crisis.

The percentage of rail transport amounts to 40% of total land transportation, versus 18% as the EU average. However, its share of transit transport reaches 70%.

source: OFS (http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/fr/index/news/01/nip_detail.html?gnpID=2011-088)

The Castione-Cama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrovia_Mesolcinese) railway, once linking Bellinzona TI with Mesocco GR as part of the Rhätische Bahn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhaetian_Railway) but now used only by touristic trains, will probably close at the end of 2013 :(

well all those riiiiiiich folk around locarno/lugano should chip in maybe?

What?

cant they fund it from charity?

cant they fund it from charity?

Maybe, but it takes a lot of money to operate a touristic railway. And the locals are unlikely to use it, so what is the point of keeping it open with local charity money? It is one of those things you ride once in a lifetime and that is it.

It is not a problem of money as the railway covers its costs, but of lack of will of local residents. They want to build things like small public parks and so replacing the tracks, but throwing away a railway that carries (without any cost to locals inhabitants) tourists in a valley without much touristic or industrial attraction doesn't seem a smart idea to me. Even restaurants which receive one or two trains of tourists on summer's Sundays don't seem bothering loosing clients.

The railway has been used until 2003 or so for freight traffic until a (small) heavy industry closed down, that's why it is still usable and cheap to operate.

Ferrovia Mesolcinese (ex Rhätische Bahn), 1907-2013: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2PMO-7HZLI

Montreux - Rochers de Naye railway, 27th May 2007 :nuts:

This point isn't really high,around 2000 m/6000 ft.

http://www.beuret.net/album/Suisse/MVR/Rochers-de-Naye/slides/CH_MVR_MTGN_neige07.jpg

Source: http://www.beuret.net/

New narrow gauge trains are often delivered using standard gauge wagons carrying narrow gauge tracks on top, as can be seen here: http://zentralbahn.ch/sites/default/files/Transport%20FINK%20160%20001.pdf

The inverse is also possible, with standard gauge vehicles being carried on narrow gauge wagons: http://www.drehscheibe-foren.de/foren/read.php?106,5798739 (fourth photo)

A similar system, derived from the Swiss one, is used to carry standard gauge high speed trains on broad gauge lines in Spain.

New Regional Express trainsets from Stadler Rail

from railpictures.net:
Brandnew doubledeck trainset RABe 511 101 from Stadler Rail for the SBB on the very first day out on the line. The SBB will get 24 of this 4 car trainsets for Regional Express service on different lines, for example Lausanne-Geneva, Zürich-Bülach-Schaffhausen, Olten-Burgdorf-Bern, Zürich-Brugg-Basel etc.

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/6/5/6/8656.1330660654.jpg

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/9/6/2/3962.1330621650.jpg

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/5/1/5/6515.1330798942.jpg

^^ I'm horrified by the lack of track segregation with fences. The train looks nice.

^^ Swiss are (usually) not so stupid to cross tracks outside level crossings. I have nearly never seen people doing that, although some accidents happen (mostly in stations, where it is not so easy to build fences).