15 years from now which one would be the power house of east africa....
NAIROBI OR KHARTOUM

i think khartoum would be on top bcz there is more construction projects and more foreign investment, a larger population, it's population is growing faster, sudan's huge economic growth is mostly concentrated in khartoum.

To be honest its nairobi coz befor karthoum gets to where nairobi is and then surpass it, it might be in 25 yrs coz also remember the economic growth rate in kenya is 6.1% and expected to get higher by the end of next year. plus kenya has countries that depend on her economically and politically and that is why the economy is so hot without oil. kenya also does not have a darfur infact a settled southern sudan is good news for business coz the the kenyan multinationals will flock in just like in uganda, rwanda, burundi, congo, tanzania, and the crime rate in nairobi will go down so for now i will go with nairobi, and then throw a settled and strong somalia into the mix and nairobi is infested with big businesses and skyscrapers.

To be honest its nairobi coz befor karthoum gets to where nairobi is and then surpass it, it might be in 25 yrs coz also remember the economic growth rate in kenya is 6.1% and expected to get higher by the end of next year. plus kenya has countries that depend on her economically and politically and that is why the economy is so hot without oil. kenya also does not have a darfur infact a settled southern sudan is good news for business coz the the kenyan multinationals will flock in just like in uganda, rwanda, burundi, congo, tanzania, and the crime rate in nairobi will go down so for now i will go with nairobi, and then throw a settled and strong somalia into the mix and nairobi is infested with big businesses and skyscrapers.

depending in other countries is a very risky economical strategy (at least in an unstable continent like africa). the only reason nairobi is the center of east africa is bcz other cities are not as developed. when khartoum catches up with nairobi there will be no need for nairobi.

oh and sudan growth rate this year is 13%....thats twice more than kenya

I'll have to say nairobi. I say this primarily because Nairobi has access to investments from all over the world a little more so than Sudan, which still has to deal with the scorn it is getting from the westover this whole Darfur thing.
Doesn't that lend Nairobi a slight advantage with regards to becoming the capital of East Africa? For that, Khartoum would have to become a center for conventions, business deals, and other major international things from all over the world. In that regard, its kind of already at a bit of a disadvantage compared to nairobi because Nairobi is already a center for many international relations in East Africa, and furthermore does not have any stigmas over its head that could last for a while.

I'll have to say nairobi. I say this primarily because Nairobi has access to investments from all over the world a little more so than Sudan, which still has to deal with the scorn it is getting from the westover this whole Darfur thing.
Doesn't that lend Nairobi a slight advantage with regards to becoming the capital of East Africa? For that, Khartoum would have to become a center for conventions, business deals, and other major international things from all over the world. In that regard, its kind of already at a bit of a disadvantage compared to nairobi because Nairobi is already a center for many international relations in East Africa, and furthermore does not have any stigmas over its head that could last for a while.

the problem with nairobi is that it could grow but it could never booooom..

the problem with nairobi is that it could grow but it could never booooom..

Uh...I don't see why it couldn't...so, why is it that you think that?

it cant boom? look at the upperhill and westlands before you say that. i like the way you view this topic though. you will have to sort out the mess in darfur which will be like 5 yrs and then convince the international community it all good in sudan for those guyz to come running. even the peace talks ceasefire signings btn khartoum and darfur took place in Kenya, waht i am saying is that khartoum is starting at a very huge minus to give it 15 yrs to be better than the green city under the sun. my friend its like saying that in 15 yrs luanda will be ahead of durban, luanda will be close but durban will still have an edge over luanda because of reputation. plus khartoum heavily relies on oil while nairobi is diverse, if the oil market is not good the sudan economy slows down. trust me friend if nigeria was totally depending on oil, the african giant would still be deep asleep. khartoum needs diversity which as of right now it doesnt have.

dont forget that lamu kenya migh have oil and gas and we will find out by the next five years. assuming you know kenya, just imagine what will happen to the kenyan economy when oil money starts flowing in i mean the economy is already red hot without oil money. in uganda they have discovered oil and it will have to be exported through mombasa so which ever way you look at it its going to take way more than five years for khartoum to be more advanced than nairobi economically

it cant boom? look at the upperhill and westlands before you say that. i like the way you view this topic though. you will have to sort out the mess in darfur which will be like 5 yrs and then convince the international community it all good in sudan for those guyz to come running. even the peace talks ceasefire signings btn khartoum and darfur took place in Kenya, waht i am saying is that khartoum is starting at a very huge minus to give it 15 yrs to be better than the green city under the sun. my friend its like saying that in 15 yrs luanda will be ahead of durban, luanda will be close but durban will still have an edge over luanda because of reputation. plus khartoum heavily relies on oil while nairobi is diverse, if the oil market is not good the sudan economy slows down. trust me friend if nigeria was totally depending on oil, the african giant would still be deep asleep. khartoum needs diversity which as of right now it doesnt have.

what's happening in nairobi is called growth and not booming.

sudan is already growing with a bad reputation bcz it's now attracting investment and attention from people who doesn't care about reputation...aka the asians and arabs now imagine what would happen when the darfur crisis is solved (sudan attracted nearly 4 billion dollar of foreign investment in 2006).....by the way sudan has already accepted a joint U.N and A.U peace keeping force now all we are waiting on is a political peace wich is expected to occurr in the juba conference.
the current sudanese regime won't even last for long and when they're gone and western comapnies come in then nairobi wouldn't stand a chance.

the current sudanese regime won't even last for long and when they're gone and western comapnies come in then nairobi wouldn't stand a chance.

No offense, mate, but I just don't see that happening anytime soon. Saying that somehow Nairobi just doesn't stand a chance seems unrealistic, when it is at the present already basically the capital of East Africa with a high growth rate and good relations with the west. Sudan has a lot of catching up to do in that regard.

It just doesn't seem logical to just say that Nairobi is almost a lock to be behind Khartoum...the facts just don't seem to bare that out. Do you really think that these western companies(especially if oil is found in kenya, which it likely will be) will choose Sudan, a nation with which they have had more difficult relations with, over Kenya, a nation that has always traditionally been on good terms with the west and a nation that already hosts a good share of these western companies as it is?

You gotta be realistic, dude. Khartoum will grow, but it doesn't seem right to predict it somehow just completely outdoing Nairobi any time soon.

Nairobi will be dominant. Kenya's economic growth is much more diversified, requiring a more developed workforce and a more developed commercial sector. Kenya has stability, while Sudan has instability in the West, the East, and the South remains unsettled (as the government has not met all of its obligations to the south yet). Also, Kenya is a liberal, open, and free society; while Sudan remains trapped by Islamic authoritarianism. Authoritarianism stifles innovation and development and allows corruption to continue.


oh and sudan growth rate this year is 13%....thats twice more than kenyaSudan's growth is almost all in the energy sector. Whereas the growth in Kenya is real grassroots development.

Nairobi will be dominant. Kenya's economic growth is much more diversified, requiring a more developed workforce and a more developed commercial sector. Kenya has stability, while Sudan has instability in the West, the East, and the South remains unsettled (as the government has not met all of its obligations to the south yet). Also, Kenya is a liberal, open, and free society; while Sudan remains trapped by Islamic authoritarianism. Authoritarianism stifles innovation and development and allows corruption to continue.
Sudan's growth is almost all in the energy sector. Whereas the growth in Kenya is real grassroots development.

sudan oil outupt will remain the same this year....

i think kenya is more diversed than alot of cities but that doesn't make it more wealthy.....e.g dubai...doha...etc.

actually our islamic goverment is fake.......lol
sudan is not a saudi arabia or iran people do whatever they like...lol
and like i said again this goverment will not last long....inshallah.

there is stability in all of sudan except in the west which is not even felt in khartoum bcz sudan is so large

No offense, mate, but I just don't see that happening anytime soon. Saying that somehow Nairobi just doesn't stand a chance seems unrealistic,

You gotta be realistic, dude. Khartoum will grow, but it doesn't seem right to predict it somehow just completely outdoing Nairobi any time soon.

that was afigure of speech.....

i am not underestimating nairobi........

anyways this is just pure espuclation

15 years from now which one would be the power house of east africa....
NAIROBI OR KHARTOUM

i think khartoum would be on top bcz there is more construction projects and more foreign investment, a larger population, it's population is growing faster, sudan's huge economic growth is mostly concentrated in khartoum.

Nairobi has a larger population than Khartoum. If you include Khartoum, Khartoum North and Omdurman, then their populations are equal.

The population of Sudan and Kenya has a difference of just 1 million.

I'm Placing my bet on Khartoum. I think Africa's hottest spots in 2017 will be Khartoum, Cairo and Luanda. Sudan's economy is booming, and Khartoum is packed with Cranes, so I see no Reason why Khartoum won't be the Power House of East Africa, I would say Power House of North and East Africa, but There's Cairo to take into consideration.:)

Nairobi has a larger population than Khartoum. If you include Khartoum, Khartoum North and Omdurman, then their populations are equal.

The population of Sudan and Kenya has a difference of just 1 million.

sudan's population is actually 40 million...

kenya's is around 36 million if i am not mistaken..

OK Kenya's now at 37million, I was looking at slightly old data.

Interesting!...these violence in Dafur seems not to hold khartoum down at all cz business activities going on is just as usual.though Kenya is the dominant now an very promising country.

Of course it will be Khartoum.
At this trend,in 2010 Khartoum will surpass Nairobi.
There is massive renewing of roads,electricity transmission,water sewage...
There is a middle class population which is growing...there are a lot of sudanese compagny manned by sudanese engineer and manager and the government make sure that they take part in reconstruction.

Nairobi will be dominant. Kenya's economic growth is much more diversified, requiring a more developed workforce and a more developed commercial sector.
This was true,but the trend is changing fastly...there is a growing petrochemical industry which is developping,there are big steel,copper,pipe processing unit in GIAD.There are even cars,truck,tractor assembly lines in GIAD wich is producing thousands of vehicules...and with introduction of merowe dam,there will be big agricultural project...
There are even giant compagny like national telecom compagny sudatel with a capitalisation of 1.2 billions and last year,they have bought a 70 millions dollar license in mauritania for developping 3G telephony.
All businnessmen in sudan are saying thats its now the best period to do businness in sudan.
Every day,we hear of new big projects,like the a giant refinery in port sudan...
For developpement workforce,i dont think its true,there are "good" university,the proof is the thousands of sudanese who are working in gulf country...


Kenya is a liberal, open, and free society; while Sudan remains trapped by Islamic authoritarianism. Authoritarianism stifles innovation and development and allows corruption to continue.
Sudan's growth is almost all in the energy sector. Whereas the growth in Kenya is real grassroots development.
It means nothing,looks at China,its an authoriatarian regime ...look at japan,its considered a close society whose population speaks only japanese...
Beeing "liberal and open" doesnt guarantee you of developping....

I'll have to say nairobi. I say this primarily because Nairobi has access to investments from all over the world a little more so than Sudan, which still has to deal with the scorn it is getting from the westover this whole Darfur thing.

For the investment,sudan has proved it can solely rely on Asian and arabs.Chinese,malaysian,indian,gulf country are awash of money,and are looking for new opportunity everywhere in the world,and unlike the past,they are investing in developping countries specially true for gulf countries.

For that, Khartoum would have to become a center for conventions, business deals, and other major international things from all over the world. In that regard, its kind of already at a bit of a disadvantage compared to nairobi because Nairobi is already a center for many international relations in East Africa, and furthermore does not have any stigmas over its head that could last for a while.
This is becoming true,this year have witness a lot of african meeting (comesa,inteliigence chief...).
With the new al mogran project,new international aiport,Khartoum will take a leading role in commercial and financiary affairs in east africa.

If the US,doesnt destroy Sudan like they did in iraq,Khartoum will surpass all other capitals in africa in 2010

i really cant see nairobi being surpassed in a mere 15 years, that is very wishful thinking based on an idea that massive capital flows will flood into sudan in a non oil focussed sense. being a centre of power is not 1 dimensional, your economy needs to be a leader in countless fields. Kenya is just that. Every nation hs room for improvement anf i believe that kenya and hence nairobi will continue on its growth path and with correct policies and decisions will grow far faster than it is at present.

Kenya is stable, sudan is far far from that. to think stability on a mass scale can be achieved in 15 years is ambitious. If sudan can make good decisions it may play catch up, but i'm thinking a 25-30 year time frame, if not longer

Another aspect we should consider is the geo-political situation that Sudan could find itself in 15 years time. There is going to be a referendum in 2011 as to if Southern Sudan will become independent from Sudan. As things stand now, most Southern Sudanese are supporting the move to separate from Sudan. If this happens, Sudan will lose out on the vast oil fields in the South and if by that time the economy will not have diversified enough, this will drastically affect the economy. Southern sudan may be considered to be more of East Africa while Northern Sudan (where Khartoum is located) may be considered part of Arabic Northern Africa.

Judging based on recent project in both country, my vote for Khartoum

'and yep Indonesia didnt belive what western media says about what happened in Darfur

I will go for Nairobi. Here's the real picture Kenyan(Nairobi) firms are now steadily eating into their neighbouring countries interms of investments recently Kenya's largest local bank KCB said they are planning to open 10 new branches in southern Sudan by 2010 already they are operating in Tanzania. Nakumatt holdings Kenya's largest supermarket chain said that they will be expanding to the region and are planning 30 new branches all the way to Rwanda. It is also worth noting that Kenya spends more than 40% of its Development and recurrent budget on Education thus preparing an educated populace ready to take on the challenges arising in the new future. Last but not least Kenya's strategic location and seaport planned fibre optic connection is a big boon for their development a planned Railway linking southern Sudan Uganda to the port of Mombasa. A planned Highway linking Addis Ababa(Now land locked) to northern Kenya. and finaly Nationals from all the neighbouring countries including Sudan are resident in Kenya esp Nairobi some of whom have already invested heavily and they call Kenya home before dust settles on Sudan Kenya will be way ahead thanks to sound economic policies and political stability.

I won't really emphasize on why I think; Khartoum will be a Hub in East and North Africa, but I'll ask you guys to open you ears and eyes, so that when Khartoum becomes a Jewel, it doesn't catch you by surprise.:)

I won't really emphasize on why I think; Khartoum will be a Hub in East and North Africa, but I'll ask you guys to open you ears and eyes, so that when Khartoum becomes a Jewel, it doesn't catch you by surprise.:)

No one denies that Khartoum will be a jewel. It already is one (imo). But when it comes to being a hub for East Africa, it will be difficult for it to challenge Nairobi especially because of Nairobi's location.

Jo'Burg grew, Nairobi grew, Cairo grew, but Khartoum is not growing, but Booming. You cannot compare the growth of Khartoum to that of most other cities in Africa, because those cities Developed over decades, while I foresee Khartoum emerging as the Dubai of Africa in the next two decades. Khartoum would be have twice as any cranes, if not for the Darfur Crisis, that has slightly reduced Investments into the country.

I mean Khartoum will obviously take years, to be firmly established as a Regional Hub, but whether it can quickly become the Top destination or the "Investors Choice" is a very different Question. To me Khartoum is Mumbai and Nairobi is Paris. Paris is obviously miles ahead, but the growth of Mumbai makes that of Paris seem "Stunted"

Jo'Burg grew, Nairobi grew, Cairo grew, but Khartoum is not growing, but Booming. You cannot compare the growth of Khartoum to that of most other cities in Africa, because those cities Developed over decades, while I foresee Khartoum emerging as the Dubai of Africa in the next two decades. Khartoum would be have twice as any cranes, if not for the Darfur Crisis, that has slightly reduced Investments into the country.

I mean Khartoum will obviously take years, to be firmly established as a Regional Hub, but whether it can quickly become the Top destination or the "Investors Choice" is a very different Question. To me Khartoum is Mumbai and Nairobi is Paris. Paris is obviously miles ahead, but the growth of Mumbai makes that of Paris seem "Stunted"

Most cities have ''boom'' periods. Joburg had its period in the 1970's (when the Hillbrow area began getting Africa's tallest buildings-Carlton centre and Ponte city). Nairobi also had its boom years in the late 60's and 70's. The boom factor only applies for a certain period of time. After demand for office space and residential/industrial facilities has been met, most cities just continue to grow-or stagnate- until a time when there is more demand for the same facilities. Khartoum is likely to follow on the same principle of ''boom'' then ''growth''.

As for investors choice, Khartoum is going to attract businesses interested in Sudan's oil potential. Nairobi will most likely continue as the base for the established multinationals based in the region and also major industries and tourism. Each city will definitely cut a niche for itself.

Yes,there is a real booming in Khartoum.And more important,a lots of gulf countries are investing in Sudan

For example,a fresh news:

June 17, 2007 (DOHA) — Qatar’s Barwa Real Estate Co. said it was considering investing in Sudan as part of a strategy to expand outside its home country.

Talks in Sudan with unidentified people were "constructive and informative," Barwa said in a statement on the Qatari bourse Web site on Sunday.

Qatar’s al-Sharq newspaper reported on Sunday the company was planning to invest $500 million in the African state. Barwa did not comment directly on the report.

Is it true that Sudan is the most unstable country in the world? See this article below:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070618/ts_nm/iraq_usa_states_dc

Reuters
Iraq now ranked second among world's failed states

By David Morgan 2 hours, 28 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -
Iraq has emerged as the world's second most unstable country, behind Sudan, more than four years after President George W. Bush ordered the U.S. invasion to topple Saddam Hussein, according to a survey released on Monday.

The 2007 Failed States Index, produced by Foreign Policy magazine and the Fund for Peace, said Iraq suffered a third straight year of deterioration in 2006 with diminished results across a range of social, economic, political and military indicators. Iraq ranked fourth last year.

Afghanistan, another war-torn country where U.S. and
NATO forces are battling a Taliban insurgency nearly six years after a U.S.-led invasion, was in eighth place.

"Iraq and Afghanistan, the two main fronts in the global war on terror, both suffered over the past year," a report that accompanied the figures said.

"Their experiences show that billions of dollars in development and security aid may be futile unless accompanied by a functioning government, trustworthy leaders, and realistic plans to keep the peace and develop the economy."

The index said Sudan, the world's worst failed state, appears to be dragging down its neighbors Central African Republic and Chad, with violence in the Darfur region responsible for at least 200,000 deaths and the displacement of 2 million to 3 million.

The authors of the index said one of the leading benchmarks for failed state status is the loss of physical control of territory or a monopoly on the legitimate use of force.

Other attributes include the erosion of legitimate authority, an inability to provide reasonable public services and the inability to interact with other states as a full member of the international community.

Foreign Policy magazine is published by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, a Washington-based think tank. The Fund for Peace is an independent research group devoted to preventing and resolving conflicts.





Copyright © 2007 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon.
Copyright © 2007 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
Questions or Comments
Privacy Policy -Terms of Service - Copyright/IP Policy - Ad Feedback

Is it true that Sudan is the most unstable country in the world? See this article below:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070618/ts_nm/iraq_usa_states_dc

Reuters
Iraq now ranked second among world's failed states

By David Morgan 2 hours, 28 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -
Iraq has emerged as the world's second most unstable country, behind Sudan, more than four years after President George W. Bush ordered the U.S. invasion to topple Saddam Hussein, according to a survey released on Monday.

The 2007 Failed States Index, produced by Foreign Policy magazine and the Fund for Peace, said Iraq suffered a third straight year of deterioration in 2006 with diminished results across a range of social, economic, political and military indicators. Iraq ranked fourth last year.

Afghanistan, another war-torn country where U.S. and
NATO forces are battling a Taliban insurgency nearly six years after a U.S.-led invasion, was in eighth place.

"Iraq and Afghanistan, the two main fronts in the global war on terror, both suffered over the past year," a report that accompanied the figures said.

"Their experiences show that billions of dollars in development and security aid may be futile unless accompanied by a functioning government, trustworthy leaders, and realistic plans to keep the peace and develop the economy."

The index said Sudan, the world's worst failed state, appears to be dragging down its neighbors Central African Republic and Chad, with violence in the Darfur region responsible for at least 200,000 deaths and the displacement of 2 million to 3 million.

The authors of the index said one of the leading benchmarks for failed state status is the loss of physical control of territory or a monopoly on the legitimate use of force.

Other attributes include the erosion of legitimate authority, an inability to provide reasonable public services and the inability to interact with other states as a full member of the international community.

Foreign Policy magazine is published by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, a Washington-based think tank. The Fund for Peace is an independent research group devoted to preventing and resolving conflicts.





Copyright © 2007 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon.
Copyright © 2007 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
Questions or Comments
Privacy Policy -Terms of Service - Copyright/IP Policy - Ad Feedback

Its politically biased,how can they compare Sudan with somalia,afganistan?
Sudan economy is to become the third in Subsharian,develpement growth is at 13%,apart some area,most of the country is secure.

Even at current growth rate, Khartoum will not overtake Nairobi in 15 years. The size of a country's economy does not even greatly affect the city in it. Germany has a larger economy than the UK, but London (the financial/economic centre) is much more important financially than Frankfurt (the German financial/economic centre).

:mad2: I cant talk about a boom when it is blood oil and Genocide that is generating it. Shame on you guys to completely ignore the evil genocide and massacring of people and focus on frivolous growth:ohno: . I might expect this with other people, but africans? :bash: Its bad enought that people dont care about the "Blacks" of Darfur dying but celebrating the end results of their suffering is sick. I would never go back to Khartoum nor care about the "Genocide Boom".

:mad2: I cant talk about a boom when it is blood oil and Genocide that is generating it. Shame on you guys to completely ignore the evil genocide and massacring of people and focus on frivolous growth:ohno: . I might expect this with other people, but africans? :bash: Its bad enought that people dont care about the "Blacks" of Darfur dying but celebrating the end results of their suffering is sick. I would never go back to Khartoum nor care about the "Genocide Boom".

African lion, we are not ignoring the misery of darfurians. a larger sudanese economy means a better life for the sudanese people. Darfur doesn't produce any oil....the conflict is far more complicated and oil is not even part of it. you can't just punish the sudanese population for what the goverment is doing in darfur.....:ohno:

Even at current growth rate, Khartoum will not overtake Nairobi in 15 years. The size of a country's economy does not even greatly affect the city in it. Germany has a larger economy than the UK, but London (the financial/economic centre) is much more important financially than Frankfurt (the German financial/economic centre).


we said this before most of sudan growth is concentrated in khartoum

And most of Kenya's wealth and growth is concentrated in Nairobi.

In terms of business, Nairobi continues to lead the field regionally:


http://www.bdafrica.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1291&Itemid=4744

Yibrah Tesfasghi (president for General Electric in Africa): (said in 2007)
“GE sees Kenya as a key emerging market driver of the future African economy. We want to position this company in the heart of Africa so as to build relations with African businesses as we are planning a long stay in the continent.” Mr Tesfasghi said Nairobi is increasingly becoming a business hub due to its developed telecommunications infrastructure and airport services.

http://www.businesstraveller.com/default.asp?page=14&ISS=23509&SID=679502

Richard Branson (president of Virgin Group): (said in 2007)
"Nairobi is the leading hub for the whole of East Africa and the Indian Ocean and is an important city in its own right, with many international institutions based there."

Another aspect we should consider is the geo-political situation that Sudan could find itself in 15 years time. There is going to be a referendum in 2011 as to if Southern Sudan will become independent from Sudan. As things stand now, most Southern Sudanese are supporting the move to separate from Sudan. If this happens, Sudan will lose out on the vast oil fields in the South and if by that time the economy will not have diversified enough, this will drastically affect the economy. Southern sudan may be considered to be more of East Africa while Northern Sudan (where Khartoum is located) may be considered part of Arabic Northern Africa.

You have hit the nail on the head. The North, without the Southern oil, will be a poor desert country associated with the Arab world whereas the South will be booming and will be associated with East Africa.

:mad2: I cant talk about a boom when it is blood oil and Genocide that is generating it. Shame on you guys to completely ignore the evil genocide and massacring of people and focus on frivolous growth:ohno: . I might expect this with other people, but africans? :bash: Its bad enought that people dont care about the "Blacks" of Darfur dying but celebrating the end results of their suffering is sick. I would never go back to Khartoum nor care about the "Genocide Boom".

Exactly!!!

You have hit the nail on the head. The North, without the Southern oil, will be a poor desert country associated with the Arab world whereas the South will be booming and will be associated with East Africa.

I wouldn't say so. Although the South of Sudan has most of the oil, they are VERY landlocked...i think that the North may have the advantage of having the ports and infrastructure (pipelines). Also, don't forget that that the South is basically starting from scratch at the moment.

I think that when (or if?) Sudan becomes two countries...the two will have symbiotic economies. Both will probably help the other economically.

Its politically biased,how can they compare Sudan with somalia,afganistan?


Africa500...you hit one of my nerves there. :lol:

Like comparing Darfur and Khartoum in Sudan (not that I'm sidelining the conflict), Somalia's economic progress has been overshadowed...by Mogadishu's continuing and seemingly endless issues.

A large part of the country has moved past the conflict and are booming economically (in Somaliland and Puntland in the north) but these factors are ignored and overshadowed by the idiocy in Mogadishu, where most of the conflicts are taking place.

The problems in Mogadishu don't mirror or speak for the issues going on in the rest of the country.

I wouldn't say so. Although the South of Sudan has most of the oil, they are VERY landlocked...i think that the North may have the advantage of having the ports and infrastructure (pipelines). Also, don't forget that that the South is basically starting from scratch at the moment.

I think that when (or if?) Sudan becomes two countries...the two will have symbiotic economies. Both will probably help the other economically.

There is a project to extend infrastructure (railways, highways and a pipeline) linking South sudan to East Africa through Uganda and Kenya. Statistically, its a shorter distance (and more efficient) transporting oil from S.Sudan to the Kenyan coast than to Port Sudan. The intended pipeline will link the newly found oilfields in North western Uganda to those in Southern Sudan. Also a brand new port is to be built in Kenya to handle goods from both Ethiopia and Southern Sudan. Southern Sudan will thus be also linked to East Africa like it will be linked to North Africa.:)

Ahmed, it is my honest opinion that Nairobi will continue to be the hub of that region for the foreseeable future, despite Khartoum's oil backed boom. No doubt that Khartoum is booming, but Nairobi's large industrial manufacturing base, developed telecommunications infrastructure, an airline that is among the top 3 in Africa and serving as a regional hub, combined with a thriving financial services sector, a thriving capital market in the form of Nairobi Stock Exchange (ranked 4th largest in Africa) and a whole host of multi-nationals that are still choosing Nairobi as their regional headquarters will ensure that Nairobi maintains its lead.

Also remember that Kenya is growing too and its growth is more diversified (which by definition means its more sustainable in the long term) than the Sudan's boom which appears to be inextricably linked to oil. I may be wrong, but i think it will be a little more than 20 years before Khartoum can unseat Nairobi.

Sudan builds and assembles both civilian and military vehicles as well as aircraft. cement production is set to become one of the highest on the continent this year, 20 billion dollars worth of of Gulf investment are invested in agriculture. Sudan is the first country on the continent to produce ethanol fuel. I could go on for ages, industry and manufacturing in Sudan are far ahead of Kenya.

Kenya' Economic capacity is grossly understated by all the financial gurus and their institutions(IMF, World Bank ..). They claim that the country attracts the lowest amount of investment yet the county is the largest or second largest foreign investor in (Tanzania, Uganda) and soon Rwanda and Southern Sudan. The dynamism of local entreprenuers and their disporean cabal is grossly overlook is so many ways.

Another gross understatement. First by phne subscription I bet you mean both (fixed lines and cellphones)

no I only meant cellular


Two events will determine the future (between Sudan and Kenya).
1. The 'expected' successin of Southern Sudan with its rich mineral deposits?
2. The big news of Kenyas Oil discover?

Kenyas worst undoing is politics as usual. With the expected implementation of the new constitution I beieve the genie will soon be laid to rest atleast for the moment.

oil wells in the South have been operating for 13 years by 2017 it is estimated that the wells productions will be at only 15% of what they are now.
In any case Sudan will compensate for the loss in revenues by charging transit fees and even if the south decides to switch to lamu this will take time, Sudan will also be able to charge duties on products going to the South currently products going to the South are not taxed as it is a part of Sudan.

Sudan and Kenya cater to two different markets, Sudan caters for the East while Kenya caters for the west so they really are not competing.
Sudan's gross domestic product both national and per capita have long over taken Kenya's, with the Sudanese economy being over 50% larger.
In regards to infrastructure(excluding southern Sudan), Sudan has caught up Sudan now produces more electricity than Kenya has a more developed road infrastructure and a larger percentage of the population have access to clean water.
Plus Sudanese economic growth has been consistently faster than that of Kenya's with GDP growth for Sudan in 2010 estimated at 6% for Sudan compared to 4% for Kenya.
The only area which Kenya leads is that it is more aesthetically pleasing due to Nairobi's more developed skyline, however the cranes all over Khartoum are working to change this.

A lot has changed since 2007 people:cheers:

I love this rivalry . :banana2:

Nairobi VS Khartoum


Every region seems to have a it captain . then someone coming behind trying to catch up.

, but Nairobi's large industrial manufacturing base,


Sudan builds and assembles both civilian and military vehicles as well as aircraft. cement production is set to become one of the highest on the continent this year, 20 billion dollars worth of of Gulf investment are invested in agriculture. Sudan is the first country on the continent to produce ethanol fuel. I could go on for ages, industry and manufacturing in Sudan are far ahead of Kenya.


developed telecommunications infrastructure,

Sudan has 17 million phone subscribers 5 million more than kenya. Sudatel is the largest phone company in both Senegal and Mauritania and will soon inaugurate its Ghanian and Nigerian subsidiaries. Sudan has more than 4 million internet users a million more than Kenya.


Also remember that Kenya is growing too and its growth is more diversified (which by definition means its more sustainable in the long term) than the Sudan's boom which appears to be inextricably linked to oil. I may be wrong, but i think it will be a little more than 20 years before Khartoum can unseat Nairobi.

Kenya has been in and out of recession for the past 10 years Sudan has had consisstant growth averaging 8% over that period.
The economic results of 2009 show how Sudan has got over its oil dependency, oil prices plummeted in 2009 virtually all oil dependent countries went in to recession, the South of Sudan's economy undoubtably contracted, however over all Sudan recorded a 4% growth rate. If Sudan was that dependent on the 150,000 barrels of Southern oil surely the economy would have fallowed the direction of oil prices and contracted.

The only area which Kenya leads is that it is more aesthetically pleasing due to Nairobi's more developed skyline, however the cranes all over Khartoum are working to change this.

This is laughable.:lol:

Kenya is just recovering from a tumultous 2007(2008) post election violence that saw the economy contract(still eked a low digit growth) from the previous growths of 7%(2007) and prior 5%.

This is laughable.:lol:

Kenya is just recovering from a tumultous 2007(2008) post election violence that saw the economy contract(still eked a low digit growth) from the previous growths of 7%(2007) and prior 5%.

what exactly are you disputing, the Kenyan economy has grown at an average of between 3-4% over the last decade not bad but far off Sudan's rate of growth.

Sudan has 17 million phone subscribers 5 million more than kenya. Sudatel is the largest phone company in both Senegal and Mauritania and will soon inaugurate its Ghanian and Nigerian subsidiaries. Sudan has more than 4 million internet users a million more than Kenya.


Another gross understatement. First by phne subscription I bet you mean both (fixed lines and cellphones) By the end of 2008 Kenya had slightly abobe 16 million telephone subscribers and the numbers could be higher now. Safaricom has revolutionized mobile banking worldwide and kenya is seen as an epitome of mobile phone renovations in Africa.

Two events will determine the future (between Sudan and Kenya).
1. The 'expected' successin of Southern Sudan with its rich mineral deposits?
2. The big news of Kenyas Oil discover?

Kenyas worst undoing is politics as usual. With the expected implementation of the new constitution I beieve the genie will soon be laid to rest atleast for the moment.

what exactly are you disputing, the Kenyan economy has grown at an average of between 3-4% over the last decade not bad but far off Sudan's rate of growth.

What I mean is until the election results were announced Kenya's economy was on a steaming roll. It grew GDP - real growth rate: 7% -2007 est. 6.4% -2006 est. and contracted to 1.7% -2008 est.(after elections)(link for clarity (http://www.indexmundi.com/kenya/gdp_real_growth_rate.html))

If the elections were smooth Iam sure 2008 would have been to the neighbourhood of 8%.

no I only meant cellular



oil wells in the South have been operating for 13 years by 2017 it is estimated that the wells productions will be at only 15% of what they are now.
In any case Sudan will compensate for the loss in revenues by charging transit fees and even if the south decides to switch to lamu this will take time, Sudan will also be able to charge duties on products going to the South currently products going to the South are not taxed as it is a part of Sudan.

This thread seems to be developing problems when posting why dont we start anOther one II.

kitayabi;54043853]no I only meant cellular
For cellular Kenya could be in the region of 17-19 Million right now if Iam not wrong since in recent years Orange and Econet have now commenced operations.


oil wells in the South have been operating for 13 years by 2017 it is estimated that the wells productions will be at only 15% of what they are now.
In any case Sudan will compensate for the loss in revenues by charging transit fees and even if the south decides to switch to lamu this will take time, Sudan will also be able to charge duties on products going to the South currently products going to the South are not taxed as it is a part of Sudan.
Sudan will be in rude shock in the next few years if they do not invest prudently. With the current "progressive Government" Kenya is currently undertaking massive prjects in infrastructure(overhaul) that will see it claim back its regional powerhous status within no time.

i.e.
Multi Million new Lamu Port. Mombasa still remains the Africa's eastern seaboards largest port(Btw Durban - Egypt) with hinterland stretching all the way to DRC, Rwanda-Burundi, and Sudan.

Nairobi Highway Overhaul (Eastern, Northern and Southern Bypasses)

New Railway and Highway(U/C) line linking Lamu, Nairobi and Mombasa to Southern Sudan and Ethiopia.

New Railway and Highway(U/C) line linking Lamu, Nairobi and Mombasa to Southern Sudan and Ethiopia.

Lamu is a waist of money that why Kenya is struggling to find some one to finance it, there isnt enough oil in the South to make it profitable. And Ethiopia is going to continue using Djibouti.

In any case why are you so concerned about Sudan over taking Kenya it poses no threat to Kenya we compete in two different markets.

Lamu is a waist of money that why Kenya is struggling to find some one to finance it, there isnt enough oil in the South to make it profitable. And Ethiopia is going to continue using Djibouti.

In any case why are you so concerned about Sudan over taking Kenya it poses no threat to Kenya we compete in two different markets.

I thought that is what the thread was all about (Nairobi vs Khartoum). Any way some respect will suffice -we brought peace to Sudan.

Lamu is about the Vision, Its about 2030 and the need to be ahead of the competition. Lamu is meant to capture Ethiopia's(80 Some million Population, 2nd in Africa) Open Up Kenya's Northern Frontier Including Somali when peace finally comes) and Sudan(Southern). Me thinks its a credible bet.

I thought that is what the thread was all about (Nairobi vs Khartoum). Any way some respect will suffice -we brought peace to Sudan.

Lamu is about the Vision, Its about 2030 and the need to be ahead of the competition. Lamu is meant to capture Ethiopia's(80 Some million Population, 2nd in Africa) Open Up Kenya's Northern Frontier Including Somali when peace finally comes) and Sudan(Southern). Me thinks its a credible bet.

I dont know what gave you the impression that I don't respect Kenya. But it doesn't change the fact that ppp wise sudan's economy is 50% bigger and Nominal wise it is twice as big as Kenya's. nor does it change the fact that economic growth in Sudan has been and continues to be faster

I dont know what gave you the impression that I don't respect Kenya. But it doesn't change the fact that ppp wise sudan's economy is 50% bigger and Nominal wise it is twice as big as Kenya's. nor does it change the fact that economic growth in Sudan has been and continues to be faster

That may have been the case in the recent past. Most of Sudans wealth is concentrated in the pockets of Omdurman-Khartoum(stone throw away) corridor and the countries large swathes of hinterland still remain largely virgin(undeveloped) and most monies are exported back to to the Arabian Penisular thanks to El Bashir. In Kenyas case Mombasa contributes substantially to the overal economic output athough Nairobi still leads.

A case for Kenya is that the economy has trippled within the last 15 years. Their are high stakes in anticipation of Oil discovery*, Most large Asian concentrated econmies(India, Japan & China) are choosing Kenya as their base of operations and locals are taking over the economy from erstwhile british and asian pioneer businessmen.

What- never mind. :ohno:

That may have been the case in the recent past. Most of Sudans wealth is concentrated in the pockets of Omdurman-Khartoum(stone throw away) corridor and the countries large swathes of hinterland still remain largely virgin(undeveloped) and most monies are exported back to to the Arabian Penisular thanks to El Bashir. In Kenyas case Mombasa contributes substantially to the overal economic output athough Nairobi still leads.

.

Khartoum and Omdurman are not the only contributors to the economy, Sudan's other major cities play a large role in the economy, especially those in Al jazeera state, but your right there is huge room for economic expansion.

But what you said about "most monies are exported back to the arabian peninsular" that's just nonsense lets stick to facts. If you mean there is a high level of foreign investment in Sudan just say that instead of twisting things:ohno: or do investors in Kenya not take profits:?

What- never mind. :ohno:

Simfan34 your contributions are indeed welcome.

I posted here last like almost 3 years ago, haha.

I don't think Khartoum and Nairobi are really comparable with each other. Khartoum and Sudan looks towards the east and north, while Nairobi does the opposite. I think more potential rivals to Nairobi's (and Kenya) supposed dominance of East Africa are Addis Ababa and Dar Es Salaam and the respective countries that they are a part of.

Lamu is about the Vision, Its about 2030 and the need to be ahead of the competition. Lamu is meant to capture Ethiopia's(80 Some million Population, 2nd in Africa) Open Up Kenya's Northern Frontier Including Somali when peace finally comes) and Sudan(Southern). Me thinks its a credible bet.

I doubt it, unlike the other countries in that list, Somalia (if it is still a country by then) has it's own ports.

Were you talking about Kenya's Northeast Province or Somalia?

OK great discussions, but when in doubt refer below

Heres some few variables to Kenyas economic credence.
Now the Words largest tea exporter(Surpassed Srilanka-Black Tea)
Worlds largest Pyrethrum exporter(Non synthetic)
World's number three Horticulture exporter(leading Africa).
Leading the region in Mobile phone connectivity
Leading the region in outsourcing business
Leading regional tourist destination
3rd Largest City in Africa*
Largest Regional Port(Eastern Africa)
Africas Largest (exporter) of students to US.
Leading Sporting Nation in Africa(Apart from SA)
Leading the Regional literacy rates
Highest exporter on skilled manpower in Africa(After Nigeria, SA and Egypt)

Most Beautiful Country in Africa*:lol: To be Continued..

I doubt it, unlike the other countries in that list, Somalia (if it is still a country by then) has it's own ports.

Were you talking about Kenya's Northeast Province or Somalia?

With a well developed port Lamu should be able to take business(Attract) away from Kismayo and Mogadishu(Probably will still be rebuilding*) as what Wison Airport is doing with (Miraa)trade and Eastleigh with(Rich Somalians).

Even though some land locked Countries are dependant on Mombasa it is still not as busy as Port Sudan is.

With a well developed port Lamu should be able to take business(Attract) away from Kismayo and Mogadishu(Probably will still be rebuilding*) as what Wison Airport is doing with (Miraa)trade and Eastleigh with(Rich Somalians).

Perhaps, but Somalia isn't exactly in the same position as Ethiopia or Southern Sudan (i.e it's not landlocked).

Kismayo will always be able to garner a huge potential segment of port trade as the mouth of the Jubba River.

and for your information Port Sudan is has about the same population as Mombasa and undoubtably richer, It is just over shadowed by the shear scale of Khartoum.

And no way in hell is Nairobi the third largest city in Africa.

It's probably fourth or fifth, or whatever, it's undeniably one of Africa's largest. The three largest cities in Africa are Cairo, Lagos, and Kinshasa.

Even though some land locked Countries are dependant on Mombasa it is still not as busy as Port Sudan is.

Can you give me the previous tonnage numbers for port Sudan.

It's probably fourth or fifth, or whatever, it's undeniably one of Africa's largest. The three largest cities in Africa are Cairo, Lagos, and Kinshasa.

Kinshasa* May be in Population terms but not in Importance*

Yes I meant that since the country overally remain undevelped, they the investor(Oil Investor) need to plough the monies back to the local economy(for a more productive growth).

Nothing wrong about Sudan's investment attraction but Kenya still reman the regions largest investor(country). Kenyas economy is pretty much well integrated (Hortculture, tourism, Industrial output, services delivery, Agriculture -Tea-Coffee) all levelling up within few points to each other (hard to tell which one is leading)

Heres some few variables to Kenyas economic credence.
Now the Words largest tea exporter(Surpassed Srilanka-Black Tea)
Worlds largest Pyrethrum exporter(Non synthetic)
World's number three Horticulture exporter(leading Africa).
Leading the region in Mobile phone connectivity
Leading the region in outsourcing business
Leading regional tourist destination
3rd Largest City in Africa*
Largest Regional Port(Eastern Africa)
Africas Largest (exporter) of students to US.
Leading Sporting Nation in Africa(Apart from SA)
Leading the Regional literacy rates
Highest exporter on skilled manpower in Africa(After Nigeria, SA and Egypt)

Most Beautiful Country in Africa*:lol: To be Continued..

there are almost a million Sudanese professionals working in the middle east

Ethiopia is the leading sporting country regionally

and i've all ready covered cellular connectivity.

It's probably fourth or fifth, or whatever, it's undeniably one of Africa's largest. The three largest cities in Africa are Cairo, Lagos, and Kinshasa.

then johannesburg then Khartoum then Alexandria then Abidjian then Casablanca then Capetown then Durban then Accra until finally Nairobi, take about blurring the facts:lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_Africa_by_population

Kinshasa* May be in Population terms but not in Importance*

^^ But you said originally third largest in population, not third largest in "importance".

I like Kenyans and hope their country does well in the future, it is miles ahead of most other countries in the region, but they need to be aware that a large reason why they are doing well, other than their own accomplishments that they deserved on their own, is because most of East Africa is ridiculously under-preforming and disappointing in comparison. Countries like Uganda, Tanzania, and Ethiopia are perennial disappointments and Sudan is just starting to develop well in the last decade. And countries like Somalia are the worst of the lot.

^^ But you said originally third largest in population, not third largest in "importance".

.

He doesn't seem to want to argue honestly

there are almost a million Sudanese professionals working in the middle east

Ethiopia is the leading sporting country regionally

and i've all ready covered cellular connectivity.

Let Athletics not crowed your mind. Ethiopia is Kenya's Athletic Rival but in terms of Ranking No. of Medals won, World Athletic Championshis(Olympics, African Games, Military Games, Youth Challenges,Commonwealth) Individual races and Cross Country Kenya still leads Africa by Far. Iam not aware Ethiopia(with all due respect) Plays: Rugby, Cricket, Swimming, Motor Racing, Volleball to the world Level?(Respects to Haile, Deratu and Bekele are reserved).

About the Skilled manpower Kenya brains are to be found all over the world from the lecture halls in US, managerial position in Tanzania to the industrial labs in Botswana... and yes they surpass one million*(More conclusive data will be given).

Let Athletics not crowed your mind. Ethiopia is Kenya's Athletic Rival but in terms of Ranking No. of Medals won, World Athletic Championshis(Olympics, African Games, Military Games, Youth Challenges,Commonwealth) Individual races and Cross Country Kenya still leads Africa by Far. Iam not aware Ethiopia(with all due respect) Plays: Rugby, Cricket, Swimming, Motor Racing, Volleball to the world Level?(Respects to Haile, Deratu and Bekele are reserved).
).

Hows Kenya at football again? The performance of your teams in African competitions is dismal and your FA refused to support the Governments bid to host the 2016 African cup of nations because no one turned up to watch.

In regards to swimming Rugby and so on your record is rather poor.

you speak of the best in East Africa, but East Africa isn't exactly the greatest of regions in the world is it, basically if Sudan doesn't play rugby then Kenya must be the "best in east africa"

In any case I am going to some up my argument as this is dragging on Khartoum is the Largest city in East Africa in the wealthiest Country in East Africa. It has a population twice that of Nairobi and a wealth divide not as profound as that of Nairobi. Sudan's economy by GDP nominal terms is twice as large as that of Kenya's and GDP growth continues to out strip that of Kenya. The rate of industrialisation in the Country is one of the highest in Africa, and Foreign investment in Sudan ranks amongst the top 4 in Africa.

What is fortunate for Kenya is that Sudan does not compete in the same markets as Kenya nor do we sell to the same people

you speak of the best in East Africa, but East Africa isn't exactly the greatest of regions in the world is it, basically if Sudan doesn't play rugby then Kenya must be the "best in east africa"

Third Ranked Cricket nation in Africa After test playing SA and now dropped Zimbabwe Cricket team.

Best Women Volleyball team in Africa(Represented Africa in Various world cup although with dismal perfomance at the world stage).

About Athletics(Long distance) even Americans will who do not care much about Africa will tell you: Its Kenya then the rest of the world follows.

Other Accolades
Best improved Rugby sevens team worldwide(Played and difeated teams from Fiji, England..).

About football I agree.

OK great Discussion, but when in doubt refer below.

Heres some few variables to Kenyas economic credence.
Words largest tea exporter(Surpassed Srilanka-Black Tea)
Worlds largest Pyrethrum exporter(Non synthetic)
World's number three Horticulture exporter(leading Africa).
Leading the region in Mobile phone connectivity
Leading the region in outsourcing business
Leading regional tourist destination
3rd Largest City in Africa*
Largest Regional Port(Eastern Africa)
Africas Largest (exporter) of students to US.
Leading Sporting Nation in Africa(Apart from SA)
Leading the Region in having the highest literacy rates
Highest exporter of skilled manpower in Africa(After Nigeria, SA and Egypt)

......

there are almost a million Sudanese professionals working in the middle east

Ethiopia is the leading sporting country regionally

and i've all ready covered cellular connectivity.

Wrong.

I love this rivalry . :banana2:

Nairobi VS Khartoum


Every region seems to have a it captain . then someone coming behind trying to catch up.

Same here.I little friendly competition is never a bad thing.

Same here.I little friendly competition is never a bad thing.

:cheers: yes indeed

After 15 years Nairobi will be more greener with super highways, lots of geeks all over the country with a London/Parisian feel to it. While Khar-what will continue to experience sandstorms.
Why gloat and cloat about Kenya/Nairobi, we haven't even started unleashing the economic juggernaut.
Don't even start to compare the educational standards between your sorry-azz puny country with Kenians. We are light years ahead of y'all and we are making major investments in the educational sector.

.......How is the press freedom Khar-what again? ........


.......Makmende choose to live in Kenya, coz Heaven wasn't good enough for him...

Well, i do hope to see growth in both cities. But there is no competition between the two. They cater to different markets and so you cant compare them. All that everyone here is doing is fantasizing about their favourite city (whichever it may be) and it remains to be seen which one will be on top. I think Khartoum would likely overtake Nairobi in a few sectors, but not completely. After all, each country has its own agenda.

There are a too many factors and variables to make a good judgement, So i say we wait and see.

I'd forgotten about this thread. I think it's important to realize that the current situation is not going to remain forever.

Nairobi will remain an important hub in the region, but I sense that some posters think that Nairobi's current strength is unchallengeable and that the dominance is permanent. That is very short-sighted. Cities like Khartoum and Addis Ababa are booming due to their countries' rapid growth (much faster than Kenya). Ugandan and Tanzanian cities are also very much able to steal Nairobi's thunder.

Nairobi (and Kenya as a whole) are in the position they are in as leader in the region due to the extremely priviledged position of never having had a long-term raging civil war (Ethiopia, Sudan, Somalia, Rwanda, etc), bloody dictatorships (Ethiopia, Sudan, Somalia, Uganda), experiments with marxism (Ethiopia) that stalled the other countries over decades. It's not exactly New York City versus Oklahoma City; more like NYC vs Hong Kong.

Now, apart from Somalia, the rest are more or less stable and are catching up rapidly, with massive investments in infrastructure (like roads, electricity, agriculture, industrial parks, etc). Within this decade and next, several cities, lead by (IMO) Addis, will seriously challenge Nairobi and Kenya's prominence. Nairobi will still be the hub for the EAC for the foreseeable future, however, even that is not set in stone.

This is all my opinion of course.

I think that Khartoum, Addis, Kampala, Dar-Es-Saalam, Nairobi are all fighting to become the captain of East Africa.

They are all growing in every sector and i think everyone of them will have their own flavor.

They will each have a different feel due to Geo position, Environment you name them all.

I think these cities are all beautiful , very important, getting richer, being modernized. It will be more like European capitals.

It will be silly to think that one's capital is better than the other. they will and already have their uniqueness.

I think that Khartoum, Addis, Kampala, Dar-Es-Saalam, Nairobi are all fighting to become the captain of East Africa.

They are all growing in every sector and i think everyone of them will have their own flavor.

They will each have a different feel due to Geo position, Environment you name them all.

I think these cities are all beautiful , very important, getting richer, being modernized. It will be more like European capitals.

It will be silly to think that one's capital is better than the other. they will and already have their uniqueness.

you guys you too consider kampala coz now it has become a hotspot for investment

I thought this thread was long dead and buried. I think we are missing the bigger picture...the day the Eastern African region won't be referred to as that poor, starving, wartorn corner of the continent.

Sudan builds and assembles both civilian and military vehicles as well as aircraft. cement production is set to become one of the highest on the continent this year, 20 billion dollars worth of of Gulf investment are invested in agriculture. Sudan is the first country on the continent to produce ethanol fuel. I could go on for ages, industry and manufacturing in Sudan are far ahead of Kenya.


Sudan has 17 million phone subscribers 5 million more than kenya. Sudatel is the largest phone company in both Senegal and Mauritania and will soon inaugurate its Ghanian and Nigerian subsidiaries. Sudan has more than 4 million internet users a million more than Kenya.



Kenya has been in and out of recession for the past 10 years Sudan has had consisstant growth averaging 8% over that period.
The economic results of 2009 show how Sudan has got over its oil dependency, oil prices plummeted in 2009 virtually all oil dependent countries went in to recession, the South of Sudan's economy undoubtably contracted, however over all Sudan recorded a 4% growth rate. If Sudan was that dependent on the 150,000 barrels of Southern oil surely the economy would have fallowed the direction of oil prices and contracted.

:lol::lol: son get your facts right, has reached 17 million last year and is expected to reach 24 million late this year:cheers:

you guys you too consider kampala coz now it has become a hotspot for investment

I lived in Kampala and now i see the change happening. plus the Oil discovery. and it Geo position.

So, yes. I know the city well. thats why i included it.

I think we are missing the bigger picture...the day the Eastern African region won't be referred to as that poor, starving, wartorn corner of the continent.

Yea, our central african region went through hell as well. and its reviving itself at a high speed level.

OK great Discussion, but when in doubt refer below.

By "region" do they mean all of Africa, or Eastern Africa?? Because a lot of other countries in Africa have some of those continental titles.

By "region" do they mean all of Africa, or Eastern Africa?? Because a lot of other countries in Africa have some of those continental titles.

They only mean East African . Every region of course has it own captain of team.

Oh ok.

Third Ranked Cricket nation in Africa After test playing SA and now dropped Zimbabwe Cricket team.

Best Women Volleyball team in Africa(Represented Africa in Various world cup although with dismal perfomance at the world stage).

About Athletics(Long distance) even Americans will who do not care much about Africa will tell you: Its Kenya then the rest of the world follows.

Other Accolades
Best improved Rugby sevens team worldwide(Played and difeated teams from Fiji, England..).

About football I agree.

The last ODI series we beat you 4-1, Zimbabwe's cricket status unfortunately has been linked with politics particularly pressure from SA,Australia and England otherwise we still would have retained Test status.

The last ODI series we beat you 4-1, Zimbabwe's cricket status unfortunately has been linked with politics particularly pressure from SA,Australia and England otherwise we still would have retained Test status.

Is this drop in Test status a temporary(precautionary monitoring measure) or full bown that will need Zims to build up to test requirements? Their was a time that Kenya almost attained the status but the Anglo-Indo-Australia axis nipped it in the bud. We are still long way, currently lumped together with the larchy's in ODI's.

They only mean East African . Every region of course has it own captain of team.

He meant in Africa.....:yes:

Words largest tea exporter(Surpassed Srilanka-Black Tea)
Worlds largest Pyrethrum exporter(Non synthetic)
World's number three Horticulture exporter(leading Africa).
Leading the region in Mobile phone connectivity
Leading the region in outsourcing business
Leading regional tourist destination
3rd Largest City in Africa*
Largest Regional Port(Eastern Africa)
Africas Largest (exporter) of students to US.
Leading Sporting Nation in Africa(Apart from SA)I will beg to differ
Leading the Region in having the highest literacy rates
Highest exporter of skilled manpower in Africa

Is this drop in Test status a temporary(precautionary monitoring measure) or full bown that will need Zims to build up to test requirements? Their was a time that Kenya almost attained the status but the Anglo-Indo-Australia axis nipped it in the bud. We are still long way, currently lumped together with the larchy's in ODI's.

It was supposed to be temporary but after some unprecedented Government interference and racial BS we probably lost all credibility in the cricket world.Australia,England and New Zealand have in the past refused to travel to Zimbabwe and even if we had Test status it would be difficult to play matches in that kind of environment.Kenya has good cricketers the first black test cricket player in Zimbabwe Henry Olonga is of Kenyan descent. I think at the present moment we do have to build up to test requirements after players like Streak,Flower,Olonga,Strang left, we do have others like Taibu,Taylor and Maskadza who are decnt enough.

It was supposed to be temporary but after some unprecedented Government interference and racial BS we probably lost all credibility in the cricket world.Australia,England and New Zealand have in the past refused to travel to Zimbabwe and even if we had Test status it would be difficult to play matches in that kind of environment.Kenya has good cricketers the first black test cricket player in Zimbabwe Henry Olonga is of Kenyan descent. I think at the present moment we do have to build up to test requirements after players like Streak,Flower,Olonga,Strang left, we do have others like Taibu,Taylor and Maskadza who are decnt enough.

Call it Black man's machismo that is Mugabe. He does'nt spare a rod when it it comes to beating down the white man. I love Olonga I had been following his rants for a while and the guy has realy inspired a new oppenness in Zimbabwe(Politico-Public). The retired Flower duos's were great partnership and inspiration too.

He meant in Africa.....:yes:

The list is weak on many lines. How long can they hold to those that they leads in?

The list is weak on many lines. How long can they hold to those that they leads in?

How is that weak?Thats a good list if you take into cosideration the size of our economy and population.:cheers:And as for how long,its up to other countries to step up.

How is that weak?Thats a good list if you take into cosideration the size of our economy and population.:cheers:And as for how long,its up to other countries to step up.

You say that he meant in Africa? Are you sure you know what your saying or just being sarcastic?

You say that he meant in Africa? Are you sure you know what your saying or just being sarcastic?

100% sure.

Words largest tea exporter(Surpassed Srilanka-Black Tea)
Worlds largest Pyrethrum exporter(Non synthetic)
World's number three Horticulture exporter(leading Africa).
Leading the region in Mobile phone connectivity
Leading the region in outsourcing business
Leading regional tourist destination
Largest Regional Port(Eastern Africa)
Africas Largest (exporter) of students to US.
Leading Sporting Nation in Africa
Leading the Region in having the highest literacy rates
Highest exporter of skilled manpower in Africa

I was pertaining to the list above.Other countries may be,as you put it 'captains' in their own ways.:)

I'm finding the blatant omission of Addis Ababa in this question a bit puzzling.

From my account of things, Ethiopia has consecutively registered the highest growth rate for a non-oil state in Africa, and top 3, and sometimes top, even when oil-states are included. It has maintained double digit growth rates for the past 5 years or so.....It has come from behind and surpassed Kenya in both Nominal and PPP GDP. What am I missing here?


Albeit outdated data, when you look at the trajectory of growth, the following graph can more or less tell you who's headed where.

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&ctype=l&strail=false&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gnp_mktp_pp_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:ETH:KEN:SDN&tstart=315532800000&tunit=Y&tlen=28&hl=en_US&dl=en_US

Aside from the obvious fact that Sudan and Ethiopia seem to be outpacing Kenya, if you compare the two, Ethiopia, while still behind, is creeping up at a slightly faster rate than oil-state Sudan.

Time will prove the ultimate judge. Ethiopia has more than double the population of Kenya, and many things favour Ethiopia. The growth rate in Ethiopia is to be expected, so no news there. I think what has happened is that Kenya has become used to being the "centre of attention" in East Africa, and frankly, any competition comes as a complete shock to most of us. Some of the assumptions are true, but Kenya is going to be put to the test and re evaluated as the dominant EAC member. A lot of Kenyans would HATE to see the graph you posted above. Kenyans pride themselves on being the first in many things, and being second is an absurd notion. That being said, we just have to wait and see what happens.

that graph is really bugging me.

Time will prove the ultimate judge. Ethiopia has more than double the population of Kenya, and many things favour Ethiopia. The growth rate in Ethiopia is to be expected, so no news there. I think what has happened is that Kenya has become used to being the "centre of attention" in East Africa, and frankly, any competition comes as a complete shock to most of us. Some of the assumptions are true, but Kenya is going to be put to the test and re evaluated as the dominant EAC member. A lot of Kenyans would HATE to see the graph you posted above. Kenyans pride themselves on being the first in many things, and being second is an absurd notion. That being said, we just have to wait and see what happens.

The EA domination wont long. As Addis and Khartoum growing like a rocket.

Though Nairobi and these two competitors will each have their own qualities and status.

Larger economy will be the Captain of the neighborhood. and attention is usually given to the captain than the rest.

Well here is my take on things. Sudan, without its oil, would probably not have performed as well as both Kenya and Ethiopia. And if I had to prognosticate, as rosy as the prospect for Sudan looks currently, I do not see their growth being as sustainable or comprehensive as Kenya's and Ethiopia's are currently. But I must admit I don't know too much about what Sudan has to offer other than Oil and Land.

Kenya, despite its failure to perform as well as some of its neighbors lately, is betting on becoming the IT outsourcing hub of Africa. I was particularly impressed in the initiative the government took in laying down its own Submarine Fiber Optics line instead of relying on and waiting for others to do it. Their ambition is commendable, and in time, I see them reaping heaps of reward in all sorts of sectors that rely on IT.

Ethiopia, with its vast array of resources and human capital, faces many challenges places like Kenya and Sudan don't face, being a land locked country. So, it must be noted that its success, is very much earned, not granted. There are a litany of things that can be improved there to facilitate a better and more sustainable growth--land reform and privatization of the telecom sector being the big two. What's encouraging, however, is that despite having some of the lowest cellular and internet penetration rates of any country in Africa, it has maintained an impressive growth rate. This begs the question of how much better it could have done had it been different. It plans on soon becoming an energy export country with Kenya and Sudan being two of its major energy export partners so, there is much to expect in terms of its developmental prospects.

Time will prove the ultimate judge. Ethiopia has more than double the population of Kenya, and many things favour Ethiopia. The growth rate in Ethiopia is to be expected, so no news there. I think what has happened is that Kenya has become used to being the "centre of attention" in East Africa, and frankly, any competition comes as a complete shock to most of us. Some of the assumptions are true, but Kenya is going to be put to the test and re evaluated as the dominant EAC member. A lot of Kenyans would HATE to see the graph you posted above. Kenyans pride themselves on being the first in many things, and being second is an absurd notion. That being said, we just have to wait and see what happens.

Perhaps, but still recognize that Ethiopia and Sudan are still making up for lost time in the past due to war and instability. They are in "catch-up mode". The reasons why these countries did not pass Kenya in economic size in the past is due to war and instability that riddled for them until recent years (for the most part). The fact that Kenya never had a long entrenched period of war and instability compared to nearly ALL of it's neighbors is a unique asset in this sectarian-riddled region known as "East Africa".

Perhaps, but still recognize that Ethiopia and Sudan are still making up for lost time in the past due to war and instability. They are in "catch-up mode". The reasons why these countries did not pass Kenya in economic size in the past is due to war and instability that riddled for them until recent years (for the most part). The fact that Kenya never had a long entrenched period of war and instability compared to nearly ALL of it's neighbors is a unique asset in this sectarian-riddled region known as "East Africa".

Exactly.

In fact, Kenya has severely underperformed considering its stability and peace. I mean, Ethiopia, after 2 decades of Marxism (!), and 3 decades of war (!!!), has already caught up in overall GDP in just a decade of peace and semi-market economy.

I unfortunately cannot see that graph on this computer but my curiosity is now piked.

i just want to know 2 things anybody with with idea should contribute

(1) what will be the prospect of the Sudan economic growth in case the 2 sudan nations part ways after referendum, where will that leave to the main sudan in their economic status? to be specific will the main Sudan remain of over 100 billion GDP without southern Sudan? can it grow more than 5% without the oil equation?

(2) what will be the rough estimate of Ethiopian GDP (Billion dollars) in 2015 if we assume they is constant double digit growth of 11-12% from 2011?

guys short and price and no biased comments, i want to see how we will fair as a region in 5 years times :cheers:

a - That's up in the air I assume. I do believe North Sudan will fare better than South Sudan. I definitely see even a potential war in the south post-separation.

b - That's hard to say. The World Bank assumes the nominal GDP will be $57 billion in 2012 so if we start off from that figure, we can assume around $80 billion. Of course, depending on the exchange rate, that figure can be much higher or much lower. In fact, the WB estimated the 2012 GDP based on an exchange rate of around 11.5 Birr. However, the currency is rapidly devaluating (currently something like 13.5 Birr to the dollar and dropping) so if the Birr doesn't pick up, the nominal GDP in USD may be much lower in 2012 than projected. OTOH, if the currency appreciates back to the levels of 2008-2009, then we are talking much higher than $57 billion in 2012.

i just want to know 2 things anybody with with idea should contribute

(1) what will be the prospect of the Sudan economic growth in case the 2 sudan nations part ways after referendum, where will that leave to the main sudan in their economic status? to be specific will the main Sudan remain of over 100 billion GDP without southern Sudan? can it grow more than 5% without the oil equation?

(2) what will be the rough estimate of Ethiopian GDP (Billion dollars) in 2015 if we assume they is constant double digit growth of 11-12% from 2011?

guys short and price and no biased comments, i want to see how we will fair as a region in 5 years times :cheers:

I expect Ethiopia to keep a steady growth path for another 4 to 5 years then growth will begin to slow.
In regards to Sudan the first year after secession of the South any growth will have to come from the private sector and foreign investment as Sudan will
not be able to increase the size of its budget, which was $13 billion in 2010.
However growth should pick up in the fallowing year. The North has diversified its economy massively with industry playing a huge part in the economy now.
In any case wells in Southern Sudan are becoming depleted and while the North has weaned itself from oil dependency the South who 97% of its budget comes from oil clearly hasn't.

a - That's up in the air I assume. I do believe North Sudan will fare better than South Sudan. I definitely see even a potential war in the south post-separation.

b - That's hard to say. The World Bank assumes the nominal GDP will be $57 billion in 2012 so if we start off from that figure, we can assume around $80 billion. Of course, depending on the exchange rate, that figure can be much higher or much lower. In fact, the WB estimated the 2012 GDP based on an exchange rate of around 11.5 Birr. However, the currency is rapidly devaluating (currently something like 13.5 Birr to the dollar and dropping) so if the Birr doesn't pick up, the nominal GDP in USD may be much lower in 2012 than projected. OTOH, if the currency appreciates back to the levels of 2008-2009, then we are talking much higher than $57 billion in 2012.

^^nice prediction i was thinking if Ethiopia could reach the 100 billion mark in GDP in the assumption that a double digit growth from 2012-2015, my guess was that they be there or might be close to hit the mark :dunno:

I expect Ethiopia to keep a steady growth path for another 4 to 5 years then growth will begin to slow.
In regards to Sudan the first year after secession of the South any growth will have to come from the private sector and foreign investment as Sudan will
not be able to increase the size of its budget, which was $13 billion in 2010.
However growth should pick up in the fallowing year. The North has diversified its economy massively with industry playing a huge part in the economy now.
In any case wells in Southern Sudan are becoming depleted and while the North has weaned itself from oil dependency the South who 97% of its budget comes from oil clearly hasn't.

^^yep, but we can only assess the damage if we can know the oil contribution in terms of revenue and percentage contribution of the sector to the overall economy :) which was hard to get the figures hope kityabi you will helpful here again :)

^^yep, but we can only assess the damage if we can know the oil contribution in terms of revenue and percentage contribution of the sector to the overall economy :) which was hard to get the figures hope kityabi you will helpful here again :)

In 2010 Southern oil will account for 2 billion of the Norths $13 billion budget. So 15% at one point it used to account for 60% of the budget but that was gradually reduced through economic diversification. In any case until the South builds a pipe line through Kenya which will take years the North will be able to receive $1 billion for transit and port fees.

Albeit outdated data, when you look at the trajectory of growth, the following graph can more or less tell you who's headed where.

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&ctype=l&strail=false&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gnp_mktp_pp_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:ETH:KEN:SDN&tstart=315532800000&tunit=Y&tlen=28&hl=en_US&dl=en_US

Aside from the obvious fact that Sudan and Ethiopia seem to be outpacing Kenya, if you compare the two, Ethiopia, while still behind, is creeping up at a slightly faster rate than oil-state Sudan.

the graph shows that until 1996 Kenya had the largest economy of the three, it was the envy of the region at one point I recall sifting through a 1995 Sudanese English textbook that had a picture of the Kenyatta conference centre and spoke of how Kenya was a regional leader, needless to say that there is no mention of this in the new English textbook. Kenya has now been over taken by both Countries and continues to record the poorest GDP growth of the three. I struggle to find a plausable reason for this economic stagnation.

I dont! Old, senile leaders, coupled with backwards thinking and a dash of impunity. The younger generations HATE the politicians, and want to kick them out ASAP!

In fact, Kenya has severely underperformed considering its stability and peace.

Well, let's not forget that economic growth overall in Africa (when putting population growth in the equation) had been negative until recent years and Kenya was no different in this problem. Although it did not deal with the wars that most of it's neighbors got ravaged from at the same time, Kenya stagnated under Moi for over 20 years due to his corruption and general crapulence.


I mean, Ethiopia, after 2 decades of Marxism (!), and 3 decades of war (!!!), has already caught up in overall GDP in just a decade of peace and semi-market economy.


This is because, unlike for the last thirty years, Ethiopia is not riddled in an international war and has gained enough stability to grow for a lengthened period. All it needed was a sustained period to surpass the GDP of a country that has less than half the population. Ethiopia is underestimated and has punched below it's weight for decades but that's starting to change...

Crapulence :lol: Love it.


Oh definitely, Moi was the problem. I guess the point I was making was that Kenyans IMHO, have taken it for granted that they are more developed than they neighbors, when really, they have underperformed. IOW, they got too comfortable in that economic leadership position when it was still a very precarious position; they didn't do enough to feel so secure in that position. As one poster said, it's something surprising to them that others are catching up. Well, Kenya wasn't/isn't that far to begin with is my point.

Yes, Ethiopia has been doing well lately and it is about time!! It's only a matter of a few years, a decade IMO, before we are a low-middle income country.

Crapulence :lol: Love it.


Oh definitely, Moi was the problem. I guess the point I was making was that Kenyans IMHO, have taken it for granted that they are more developed than they neighbors, when really, they have underperformed. IOW, they got too comfortable in that economic leadership position when it was still a very precarious position; they didn't do enough to feel so secure in that position. As one poster said, it's something surprising to them that others are catching up. Well, Kenya wasn't/isn't that far to begin with is my point.

Yes, Ethiopia has been doing well lately and it is about time!! It's only a matter of a few years, a decade IMO, before we are a low-middle income country.

^^wow, my lady is over the moon by overtaking my country, no problem :) our target is no longer competing our neighbours we have to understand the impact of globalisation, either way our priority is diversifying our economy and fighting poverty :cheers:though moi mismanagement can not be swept under the carpet, i can say though we pregnant with all kind of hope and expectations its only time that will tell :cheers:

Desert burner,

You guys are destined to be third largest economy from first by 2015. Competition is getting to hot in the neighborhood.

Will their be a new kind of competition that will come out of Kenya against her next door neighbors?

Over the moon?! Well, I don't exactly consider it a huge achievement. We should have been a middle-income country a heck of a long time ago so surpassing Kenya is something that should have happened decades ago.
I'll be happy when we surpass countries like Egypt and SA (in terms of GDP size). Then I'll feel like we're somewhere.
Right now we just came out of the wilderness and found a village. I want the big lights of the city :lol:

Over the moon?! Well, I don't exactly consider it a huge achievement. We should have been a middle-income country a heck of a long time ago so surpassing Kenya is something that should have happened decades ago.
I'll be happy when we surpass countries like Egypt and SA (in terms of GDP size). Then I'll feel like we're somewhere.
Right now we just came out of the wilderness and found a village. I want the big lights of the city :lol:

That is exactly how most of us feel. There will be up and downs but with persistence and hard-work, anything is possible. [ of course, we will undoubtedly need better leadership to get there]

Crapulence :lol: Love it.


Oh definitely, Moi was the problem. I guess the point I was making was that Kenyans IMHO, have taken it for granted that they are more developed than they neighbors, when really, they have underperformed. IOW, they got too comfortable in that economic leadership position when it was still a very precarious position; they didn't do enough to feel so secure in that position. As one poster said, it's something surprising to them that others are catching up. Well, Kenya wasn't/isn't that far to begin with is my point.

Yes, Ethiopia has been doing well lately and it is about time!! It's only a matter of a few years, a decade IMO, before we are a low-middle income country.

:ohno:Okay.First and foremost,Kenyans never saw themseves as developed than their neighours,agressive is the word .Kenyas population is almost half that of Ethiopia and significantly smaller than that of Sudan.We are also not well endowed with oil wells and large swaths of agricultural land and huge workforce unlike Ethiopia and Sudan.So who should or is still catching up?

:ohno:Okay.First and foremost,Kenyans never saw themseves as developed than their neighours,agressive is the word .Kenyas population is almost half that of Ethiopia and significantly smaller than that of Sudan.
I agree. Kenya has been doing well compare to neighbors due to stability, Market economy, despite the super corruptions that most of the continent suffers from.

Doing Well why? Kenya has no minerals, Oil or that much agro land.



We are also not well endowed with oil wells and large swaths of agricultural land and huge workforce unlike Ethiopia and Sudan.


You guys should discover Oil or Gas ot some kind of minerals soon. everyone does now days.:cheers:

So who should or is still catching up?


You guys should catch up by finding Oil and minerals and they should be cathcing up on getting their GDP per with Kenya.

:ohno:Okay.First and foremost,Kenyans never saw themseves as developed than their neighours,agressive is the word .Kenyas population is almost half that of Ethiopia and significantly smaller than that of Sudan.We are also not well endowed with oil wells and large swaths of agricultural land and huge workforce unlike Ethiopia and Sudan.So who should or is still catching up?

Yes Kenya has challenges too, but I'm saying that the country could have been much further ahead than the neighboring countries. Oil, agriculture and population are only a benefit when at peace. When it's war and marxism, trust me, they don't mean anything.
Peace is the most important thing.

You guys are counting out 1 major factor: Long Term Stability

Ethiopia: Not a democracy. This mean struggles for succession potential coups and counter coups, potentially poor successor if succession if possible. AND if ethiopia become a democracy, as can be expected, it would start are step 1 of a very complex, painful process that Kenya has had a head start numbering years. Also, the ethnic situation in Ethiopia makes Democracy unfavorable for the Amahric people because the Oromo are the majority and there are several seperatist minorities that would all make democracy an ugly power loss for the group in power. This will led to a continuation of unstable strong hand government that will stall growth or the creation of a wobbly highly ethnic based democracy that will lead to constant conflic.

Also, ethiopia is landlock and has bad relations with all it's neighbors.


Sudan: Decades or warfare, an ethnic composition prone to war, very low hopes for democracy, potential split or north and south. Sudan is almost totally prone to immediate future conflict. What we are witnessing is an oil boom that will only heat up the ethnic strife and increase corruption, mismanagement and neopotism.


kenya has a democracy and though things have gotten tough and the nation is being tested, a long experience with stability and democracy will see the kenyans will prevail. i don't see any major threats in the immediate future.

since when did economics have anything to do with democracy, just take the example of China and Kenya isn't a democracy.

Well, first of all, Ethiopia doesn't need full-blown democracy anytime soon. I actually disagree with you that democracy is necessary for stability. Ethiopia has gone through and is still going through the ethnic tension thing, and we're still here.

Second, Amhara don't have power in Ethiopia now, and haven't had it for a very long time (Mengistu was not Amhara). Whether there's democracy or not that makes no difference. You are wrong in your assumption and have clearly been reading a lot of inaccurate essays from diaspora minorities.

Amharic is only the official language. The ethnicity in power is Tigre, which are a tiny minority. The Oromo go to school and learn Oromifa, and administer their region in their own language, and have their own regional Assembly. Same with Tigray, Afar, Somali and Amhara, etc. Only the federal government uses Amharic (and Amhara and SNNP regions, the latter due to its extreme diversity).

We are experimenting with ethnic empowerment, which is very much imperfect and going through its growing pains, but seems a lot more advanced than in other countries in the region.

I wish us all the best, but the sub-region will probably keep being reshaped in the next century. Let's hope it will be done democratically and peacefully, with more ethnic representation, etc. Kenya got a taste of ethnic issues just a year ago so there are a lot of unresolved issues that can potentially spring up there because they have apparently been simmering below the surface unbeknown to anyone. Democracy can actually backfire in such situations.

Kenya IS a Democracy. That is the problem, people got too much power under Kibaki and thought they could do anything they want. This is why we had the tribal clashes some time back. Once people get a little more civilised, then full blown democracy becomes viable, but not before then.

Well, first of all, Ethiopia doesn't need full-blown democracy anytime soon. I actually disagree with you that democracy is necessary for stability. Ethiopia has gone through and is still going through the ethnic tension thing, and we're still here.

Second, Amhara don't have power in Ethiopia now, and haven't had it for a very long time (Mengistu was not Amhara). Whether there's democracy or not that makes no difference. You are wrong in your assumption and have clearly been reading a lot of inaccurate essays from diaspora minorities.

Amharic is only the official language. The ethnicity in power is Tigre, which are a tiny minority. The Oromo go to school and learn Oromifa, and administer their region in their own language, and have their own regional Assembly. Same with Tigray, Afar, Somali and Amhara, etc. Only the federal government uses Amharic (and Amhara and SNNP regions, the latter due to its extreme diversity).

We are experimenting with ethnic empowerment, which is very much imperfect and going through its growing pains, but seems a lot more advanced than in other countries in the region.

I wish us all the best, but the sub-region will probably keep being reshaped in the next century. Let's hope it will be done democratically and peacefully, with more ethnic representation, etc. Kenya got a taste of ethnic issues just a year ago so there are a lot of unresolved issues that can potentially spring up there because they have apparently been simmering below the surface unbeknown to anyone. Democracy can actually backfire in such situations.

ppl that don't think democracy brings stability are mistaken.
a heavy handed dictatorship stunts growth because it's unstable. Even periods of stability are more temporary then they would be in a mature democracy and require unnatural supression of opposition which is already the case where as a democracy benefits from an empowered opposition.

If the current dictator dies now, or steps down, who will take over? who in a position to take over will peacefully let their rival take over and rule for another life time? which ethnic group will he be from and what consequence would the fear and feeling of marginalization alone from the opposition be?

dicatorships are guranteed to breed endemic corruption, instability and increased ethnic strife.

since when did economics have anything to do with democracy, just take the example of China and Kenya isn't a democracy.

why do people think China is the glorious example of development?
China's per capita income is still on par with several african countries.
what we are witnessing is China liberalizing its HUGE market and the inevitable surge this will cause due to the fact that that's 1/5 of the world, but the Chinese economy is still VERY far behind its peers on the global stage and more capitalism and democracy are allowed to peek their head through the corrupt and oppressive regime the more growth china has seen.

why do people think China is the glorious example of development?
China's per capita income is still on par with several african countries.
what we are witnessing is China liberalizing its HUGE market and the inevitable surge this will cause due to the fact that that's 1/5 of the world, but the Chinese economy is still VERY far behind its peers on the global stage and more capitalism and democracy are allowed to peek their head through the corrupt and oppressive regime the more growth china has seen.

Ok Qatar then highest per capita income in the world, not a democracy

ppl that don't think democracy brings stability are mistaken.
a heavy handed dictatorship stunts growth because it's unstable. Even periods of stability are more temporary then they would be in a mature democracy and require unnatural supression of opposition which is already the case where as a democracy benefits from an empowered opposition.

If the current dictator dies now, or steps down, who will take over? who in a position to take over will peacefully let their rival take over and rule for another life time? which ethnic group will he be from and what consequence would the fear and feeling of marginalization alone from the opposition be?

dicatorships are guranteed to breed endemic corruption, instability and increased ethnic strife.


If the current leader dies, the replacement will be someone from his own party which is made of different ethnicities, but mainly controlled by Tigres ( Ethnic group: Tigre, current leaders) NOT AMHARA. It seems like you have been reading too much propaganda by ethno-centric oromo's who use the people of Amhara as a punching bag for all their problems. The fact is even the popular opposition groups are multi-ethnic groups, and in today's environment you can't win an election by serving only ONE SIDE. If an Oromo is a good politician and the system was such it entertains free/fair election, people will vote for the candidate. But, what we have today isn't a domination of the Amhara people, but a psuedo-democratic system run by a tiny minority that favors only its own group. What the country needs and is working on as we speak is to form a coalition, made of individuals from different backgrounds with the same shared purpose of lifting up millions of people out of abject poverty. [ unfortunately the opposition sucks just as bad as the current regime, or may be even worse]

As for the parallel's between democracy and economic prosperity, in 3 decades they have transformed the country from an inhabitable place, to a beacon of hope for more than a billion people. It is still a poor country in-terms of GDP per capita, but what matters more is how fast they are moving forward. You can't just press a button and get on top; and democracy isn't going to get them there any faster.
China ( the communist) is a better industrialist than the democrats of the west.

China is run by technocrats, African dictators are despots. No correlation or comparison whatsoever.

Ok Qatar then highest per capita income in the world, not a democracy

Qatar was luck to find more oil on its ground then people. it's people are rather unproductive being that it's not known for manufacturing anything.

Qatar was luck to find more oil on its ground then people. it's people are rather unproductive being that it's not known for manufacturing anything.

yea well most things are down to luck

no they're not.
If the current leader dies, the replacement will be someone from his own party which is made of different ethnicities, but mainly controlled by Tigres ( Ethnic group: Tigre, current leaders) NOT AMHARA. It seems like you have been reading too much propaganda by ethno-centric oromo's who use the people of Amhara as a punching bag for all their problems. The fact is even the popular opposition groups are multi-ethnic groups, and in today's environment you can't win an election by serving only ONE SIDE. If an Oromo is a good politician and the system was such it entertains free/fair election, people will vote for the candidate. But, what we have today isn't a domination of the Amhara people, but a psuedo-democratic system run by a tiny minority that favors only its own group. What the country needs and is working on as we speak is to form a coalition, made of individuals from different backgrounds with the same shared purpose of lifting up millions of people out of abject poverty. [ unfortunately the opposition sucks just as bad as the current regime, or may be even worse]

As for the parallel's between democracy and economic prosperity, in 3 decades they have transformed the country from an inhabitable place, to a beacon of hope for more than a billion people. It is still a poor country in-terms of GDP per capita, but what matters more is how fast they are moving forward. You can't just press a button and get on top; and democracy isn't going to get them there any faster.
China ( the communist) is a better industrialist than the democrats of the west.
Chinese industry won't catch up to the US for the next 50 years and even then the american ppl will still be significantly richer then the average chinese person. Dont let all these sensation news stories about china blind you, it's still a loooong way behind.

compare the life of the average mainlander (communist) to the average hong kong resident (democracy)
and you'll be baffled.


Ethiopia is moving fast and can move faster with a functional democracy. there's no comparison of the worlds dictatorships to the worlds democracies as far as development and standard of living. dictatorship and despotism can only take you so far no matter how enlightened the leader is cause the successor has a 50.50 chance of taking you back to square one and the country must kill its own to maintain stability.

ppl that don't think democracy brings stability are mistaken.
a heavy handed dictatorship stunts growth because it's unstable. Even periods of stability are more temporary then they would be in a mature democracy and require unnatural supression of opposition which is already the case where as a democracy benefits from an empowered opposition.

If the current dictator dies now, or steps down, who will take over? who in a position to take over will peacefully let their rival take over and rule for another life time? which ethnic group will he be from and what consequence would the fear and feeling of marginalization alone from the opposition be?

dicatorships are guranteed to breed endemic corruption, instability and increased ethnic strife.

You sunken into Western democracy thing. Thats not a guaranty to stability and development.

China is not a democracy, India is is.

North Africans are not democracies.

Angola is not a democracy, look at them what they are doing with less than 10 tears of real peace and stability .

The democracy thing is crap, don't be lost in the western style, thats what works for them, not for everyone.

You sunken into Western democracy thing. Thats not a guaranty to stability and development.

China is not a democracy, India is is.

North Africans are not democracies.

Angola is not a democracy, look at them what they are doing with less than 10 tears of real peace and stability .

The democracy thing is crap, don't be lost in the western style, thats what works for them, not for everyone.

The two highest per capita incomes in Africa are from dictatorships. Bangladesh a democracy but yet its citizens dream of going to work in the dictatorships of the Middle east.

Correlation does not imply causation...

Correlation does not imply causation...

+1000000

About democracy, it is indeed an asset to a country like kenya(with no known significant mineral resources atleast yet), since it will enable proper utilisation and equitable distribution of the mearger resources that the country possesses for it's development. I read a notion here that since Kenya has been 'relatively stable' than its erstwhile volatile neighbours has meant that it's got a head start economically speaking - wrong notion. My take is that despite the significant effects stability has on any nations progress as is Kenya's case decades of inept governance and corruption has just had the same resonance as ma made-wars and natural disasters to say the least.

The reason why Kenya has been on the 'top of the game' is simply because of the determination by it's citizens to succeed, case in point is despite the fact that data after data showing that Kenya receives the lowest FDI as compared with its neighbours it has still remained the second most important trading nation in COMESA Free trade area after Egypt and the second largest investor in Uganda and Tanzania.

The reason why Ethiopia has made some ground on Kenya in that past year to me was primarily because of the distabilising effects of blotched 2007 election(whereby Kenya's economy grew by over 7% in 2007 and by less than 2% in 2008 just after elections). This year Kenyan economy is bouncing back buoyed by the return of long rains, tourism, financial partners and a financial markets ressurgence and it is expected to grow by over 4%(5.6 actual).

Another silver lining to Kenya's credit is the huge portfolio of investments the government has earmarked for infrastructure(roads, telecommunication, rail, port & air-ways) that should come to fruition in the next five years assuming the effects of negative politics are dented by the enactment of the new constitution(Before 2012). These investments are mearnt to catapult Kenya to the driving seat once again as the region's economic powerhouse.

AMEEN :cheers::cheers:

This is why predictions are stupid.

This is why predictions are stupid.

What has prompted you to say that:lol: