The initiation of the planning study for the Broadway West segment of the Millennium Line goes before the Translink Board on June 27th. Some good background info for you in the report.
The study will be conducted in 3 phases and will end in late 2009.

Good to see that UBC is considered the terminus point for the study purposes.

http://www.translink.bc.ca/files/board_files/meet_agenda_min/2007/06_27_07/4.7.pdf

^ thx for the link. great to see that SkyTrain and to an lesser extent LRT is being favoured.....and thank god there's no mention of rapid bus.

hopefully, we'll see the M extended all the way to UBC....it'll be expensive, but it has to be done.


one question, was the Canada Line Broadway-City Hall Station designed for a Millennium Line Station on 10th and Cambie?

one question, was the Canada Line Broadway-City Hall Station designed for a Millennium Line Station on 10th and Cambie?

Yes, I think so. The cut-out panel on the west side of the mezzanine is oriented closer to 10th Ave. than to Broadway.

^ thx.....so i'm guessing the M-Line along 10th would go under the shallow Canada Line tunnel rather than over?

Unless it's at-grade on Broadway!!

Finally found the plan with the knock-out panel at Broadway City Hall:

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/4222/ravcambienorth21sz.jpg

Wow excellent news, however how long are the platforms going to be for this..30m? 20m? hell maybe they'll cut it back to 10m (the 40m platforms on the Canada line are a bloody joke hopefully they won't screw this line up too). Also, as much as I want to get this line built (because it HAS to be built), it will not attract many NEW transit riders. It'll basically transfer the 100k bus riders down broadway onto a skytrain and the some which is still good news. However, several commuter lines into fraser valley and else where (since we only have one) HAVE to be built in order to drastically increase the ridership levels of transit. Maybe if Ontario can manage to raise $17.5 billion for transit we should be able to scrap a good $5 billion (since we're 1/3 the size) and actually build a descent transit system.

Wow excellent news, however how long are the platforms going to be for this..30m? 20m? hell maybe they'll cut it back to 10m (the 40m platforms on the Canada line are a bloody joke hopefully they won't screw this line up too). Also, as much as I want to get this line built (because it HAS to be built), it will not attract many NEW transit riders. It'll basically transfer the 100k bus riders down broadway onto a skytrain and the some which is still good news. However, several commuter lines into fraser valley and else where (since we only have one) HAVE to be built in order to drastically increase the ridership levels of transit. Maybe if Ontario can manage to raise $17.5 billion for transit we should be able to scrap a good $5 billion (since we're 1/3 the size) and actually build a descent transit system.

If it's SkyTrain, the platforms will be 80 metres long. It's why the Millennium Line at 80 metres also has the same lengths as the Expo Line - it's the same system.

However, if we build the western extension with a different technology....it could be anything. The Canada Line was different because RAVco didn't specify platform lengths in the contract for some reason, and there's no reason for InTransitBC to build anything more than 15,000 pphpd.

Regarding Ontario spending $17.5 billion on transit.....well, we have that too.....it's $3 billion called Gateway. Not Gateway for transit, but sadly, Gateway for highways.

I got a sure fire way to speed up the length of the study: Have these people conducting the study visit Broadway Street and then ask them if a transit line might help.

Thanks for the clarification mr.x and yes it is a shame about the $3 billion spent on Gateway but an apparent lack of funding for public trans (ie. Evergreen).

Ontario also spends money on its highways...

$1.7 Billion this year alone.
http://ogov.newswire.ca/ontario/GPOE/2007/05/15/c8985.html?lmatch=&lang=_e.html

- 100 kilometres of new lanes
- 552 kilometres of highway repairs
- 125 bridge repairs
- 21 new bridges.

SkyTrain turns profit of $2.72m for 2006
Frank Luba, The Province
Published: Friday, July 13, 2007

SkyTrain is running in the black.

After recovering 100.4 per cent of its operating costs in 2005, Greater Vancouver's automated light-rail system collected 3.6 per cent more revenue than it cost to run in 2006.

Statistics from TransLink, the regional transportation authority, reveal that SkyTrain revenues last year were $78.12 million, compared with costs of $75.394 million for a "profit" of $2.72 million.
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Overall, the transit system recovered 53.7 per cent of its costs from fares, ahead of the target of 52.8 per cent but down from 2005's 56.3 per cent.

A big part of the reason for the SkyTrain success is increased ridership on the Millennium Line.

The older Expo Line, whose cars can be as crowded at peak hours as a sardine tin, has been covering its operating expenses for some time. But losses on the newer Millennium Line, which began operating in 2002, were such that TransLink stopped breaking out figures separately.

In 2003, the Millennium Line cost $17 million more to operate than it generated in revenue. Another $10 million was dropped on various one-time costs for the line.

Daily Millennium Line ridership in the spring of 2003 was 35,900.

Last year weekday usage of the Millennium Line was 69,600, which was finally approaching the 2006 ridership forecast of 75,000 that was predicted by the B.C. government's Rapid Transit Project office in 1999.

Other components of the Greater Vancouver transit system did not recover their operating costs in 2006.

The SeaBus recovered 82.1 per cent of its costs, West Coast Express 76.4 per cent, buses 49.2 per cent and community shuttles 38.1 per cent.

Transit is not generally regarded as a moneymaker. Seattle Metro's fare recovery, for example, is in the 20-per-cent range.

fluba@png.canwest.com


© The Vancouver Province 2007

If the extension were built, Millennium Line ridership could be significantly boosted. The current terminus is poor, but an LRT to Commercial wouldn't really be much better than the existing bus for Central Broadway patrons, just better for UBC students who could avoid transfers.

I got a sure fire way to speed up the length of the study: Have these people conducting the study visit Broadway Street and then ask them if a transit line might help.
Yes, instead of sitting in air-conditioned offices they should conduct their "study" on the 99 B-line during the afternoon rush hour in summertime 30 degree heat. :bash:

why don't they take it along broadway to the arbutus corridor and than use the king ed blvd for above ground and create a station terminus at the south side of the campus out nearer to thunderbird stadium

piss of some millionaire home owners - haha

why don't they take it along broadway to the arbutus corridor and than use the king ed blvd for above ground and create a station terminus at the south side of the campus out nearer to thunderbird stadium

piss of some millionaire home owners - haha

there's no density along King Edward to support a rapid transit line. maybe a B-Line in the long run.

Any ext should be able to accomodate a MINIMUM of 3 MK11 cars.
Vancouverites are use to the tonka toy trains they have.
Even 2 MK11 cars are still considered VERY small by world standards.
Expo has ver high frequency but is still packed evn the few time it use 6 car trains. Vancouver is going to have to extend all it's stations on the EXPO line in less than 20 yeasdrs. Increasing freuncy is not an option.
Any stations should have to be 9 car stations at a mimimum.

Any ext should be able to accomodate a MINIMUM of 3 MK11 cars.
Vancouverites are use to the tonka toy trains they have.
Even 2 MK11 cars are still considered VERY small by world standards.
Expo has ver high frequency but is still packed evn the few time it use 6 car trains. Vancouver is going to have to extend all it's stations on the EXPO line in less than 20 yeasdrs. Increasing freuncy is not an option.
Any stations should have to be 9 car stations at a mimimum.

They can't build platforms that are only 3-cars long for the Broadway extension, they all have to be 80 metres long like the rest of the SkyTrain platforms.

I agree, but the Canada Line goes beyond "tonka train".....more like a line with severe erectile disfunction.

there's no density along King Edward to support a rapid transit line. maybe a B-Line in the long run.

there isn't much density anywhere between burrard and ubc though so no matter which way it goes...

it would just be easier to run it along king ed since it has that huge boulevard down the middle of the road pretty much all the way to marine drive from arbutus

that way they could do it all above ground instead of tunnelling if they chose the other route - no?

^^ That's an interesting idea, but I would think the route will be determined by where stations would work best presently and down the road - serving the community along the route, not just UBC. Broadway, then along 10th would be the logical choice, since there is more of a commercial/retail presence there. Using the central median on 25th would be easier to build, that's for certain. You'd have a problem though, once you hit Dunbar... You'd then have to take it back north to 16th, then west again. Skytrain through Dunbar :ohno:... It's not really a destination for anyone is it? Where 10th has more shops, restaurants, and is much closer to the beach.

yeah i am thinking of saving money - it wouldn't have to be underground like the other way and its fairly compact that people could walk if forced

anything to get it up and going faster

either way i think going to UBC is a big waste of money, just end it at the arbutus corridor for future connection to the arbutus corridor being used for some kind of transit

there isn't much density anywhere between burrard and ubc though so no matter which way it goes...

it would just be easier to run it along king ed since it has that huge boulevard down the middle of the road pretty much all the way to marine drive from arbutus

that way they could do it all above ground instead of tunnelling if they chose the other route - no?

I live in the area and there's zero density along King Edward. With Broadway and 10th Avenue, you'll get actual ridership from the stations along the route whereas nil along King Edward.....it's not feasible at all along King Edward.

I'd even prefer LRT along Broadway/10th than something along King Ed if it comes down to cost.

it may not be dense but the area around broadway is still more dense than king ed. its just single family homes up there, not to mention all the shops and services.

they could always rezone and build it up

i'm just playing devils advocate here

i think the arbutus corridor should be returned to transit service over expanding to UBC - rather make the m line go all the way to marine drive and create a new transfer for the Canada line or something

in an ideal world with endless money than yeah throw UBC a bone and give em something but i wouldn't make it a priority

I think if the Arbutus corridor was ever made into a transit corridor, it would set off a lot of NIMBY alarms. I don't think it's got enough density to justify building a transit line on it, and honestly people who live down that corridor all have Lexuses anyway. Besides, the Canada Line pretty much takes care of North/South movement in that area. Transit service to UBC/on Broadway is the next logical step in rapid transit expansion because it's such a heavily used bus route.

"i think the arbutus corridor should be returned to transit service over expanding to UBC - rather make the m line go all the way to marine drive and create a new transfer for the Canada line or something"
<<< The Arbutus corridor was used for streetcars back when Vancouver had them, and I think eventually they'll be back running along there. I don't sense any urgency from anyone to boost transit on Arbutus though. It doesn't compare with the numbers happening right now on Broadway. I can't recall exactly, but a large portion of those bus riders you see on Broadway go to UBC. So you can't really ignore that and just focus on Arbutus because the corridor is there.

i love you Sam!!!!




Mayor to kick-off effort to extend Millenium Line.
Sep, 14 2007 - 8:50 AM

VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980) - Vancouver’s mayor will officially kick-off his effort to extend the Millennium Line to Arbutus and maybe even UBC.

Sam Sullivan will announce he'll begin consultations with various stakeholders in October.

"I am planning to lead a series of round tables to develop the concept and to develop the public support for this important initiative."

The mayor says the congestion along the Broadway corridor is a nightmare for commuters.

“We believe there's a very good business case and an environmental case for this."

Sullivan says he also supports construction of the proposed Evergreen Line for the northeast sector.






Possible delay for long-awaited Evergreen Line getting mixed reactions
Sep, 14 2007 - 9:00 AM

VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980) - The possibility of yet another delay for the long-awaited Evergreen Line linking Burnaby, Port Moody, and Coquitlam is getting a mixed reaction in the tri-cities.

Some people say buses and the existing West Coast Express service are all they need.

However others say a delay would be yet another slap in the face for the transit needs of the northeast sector.

"The priority seems to be the RAV Line in Vancouver and Richmond and all the rest of it and the tri-cities are ignored."

He says Translink and the province are treating people here like second-class citizens compared to Vancouver.







Translink says Evergreen plans much further along than Millennium extension
Sep, 14 2007 - 9:10 AM

VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980) - Translink's Ken Hardie says planning for the Evergreen Line is much further along than the Millennium Line extension, however they still are $400 million short for the Evergreen Line.

"The Evergreen Line is the one that's furthest along on our list of things to do. We have the corridor, the technology, a lot of that work has been done. We’re now waiting for partnerships BC to conclude their review of the business case to see if this project makes a good possible P-3. At the same time we've launched a three-phase study to look at the Broadway corridor to find out what's next, what do we do beyond VCC-Clark on the Millennium Line?"








Burnaby mayor Dereck Corrigan calls Sullivan's plans "selfish."
Sep, 14 2007 - 9:40 AM

VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980) - He says there's no way a Millennium Line extension and the long-overdue Evergreen Line can be funded and completed in the same generation.

Corrigan - a longtime critic of the Canada Line - says extending the Millennium Line won't reduce congestion on the roads.

"There’s many communities in Metro Vancouver that have been waiting to get some kind of service that's going to help take commuters off the highway. And for Sullivan to say, well Vancouver again should get the line, just seems to be awfully egotistical and awfully self-centered on the part of Vancouver."

He also questions how Translink would come up with the additional money.





As is, the slug called the Evergreen Line wouldn't do much in helping relieve road congestion anyway.

And selfish? Wasn't Corrigan the one that was against the Canada Line purely because he wanted the Northeast Sector line to be completed first? Didn't the eastern half of the region already get two lines??? There's already two lines serving his city, Burnaby.

He also ignores the facts that there are already 100,000 people using the Broadway buses each day, and 60,000 use the 99 B-Line. The 99 B-Line is becoming more and more incompetent year after year as ridership grows. If buses already run at frequencies of a minute and less at peak hours, what would it be like in 2011? The Broadway corridor is already quite congested from all the buses.

They should just kill the Evergreen Line already. It isn't going to solve anything by building a glorified streetcar.

Or better yet, why not just complete the entire M-Line as SkyTrain?

West to UBC, and East to Coquitlam?

The "problem of money" is easily solved if there was the will to do it. Someone needs to have a vision, unfortunately, no one in positions of power has any sort of vision for the future.

I don't know why light rail/rapid bus is so popular (you can see in the transit trade magazines) in North America, building them isn't going to solve traffic problems.....just look at Seattle, a system with 90%+ heavy rail infrastructure running light rail cars on a short stretch that is at-grade...

The most important thing IMO "rapid transit" is frequency, standing on the platform waiting for 10 mins for the next train is like riding a bus. Real rapid transit needs to have the capability of having frequencies of less than 2 minutes in order to change people's perceptions.

i love you Sam!!!!




Mayor to kick-off effort to extend Millenium Line.
Sep, 14 2007 - 8:50 AM

VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980) - Vancouver’s mayor will officially kick-off his effort to extend the Millennium Line to Arbutus and maybe even UBC.

Sam Sullivan will announce he'll begin consultations with various stakeholders in October.

"I am planning to lead a series of round tables to develop the concept and to develop the public support for this important initiative."

The mayor says the congestion along the Broadway corridor is a nightmare for commuters.

“We believe there's a very good business case and an environmental case for this."

Sullivan says he also supports construction of the proposed Evergreen Line for the northeast sector.






Possible delay for long-awaited Evergreen Line getting mixed reactions
Sep, 14 2007 - 9:00 AM

VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980) - The possibility of yet another delay for the long-awaited Evergreen Line linking Burnaby, Port Moody, and Coquitlam is getting a mixed reaction in the tri-cities.

Some people say buses and the existing West Coast Express service are all they need.

However others say a delay would be yet another slap in the face for the transit needs of the northeast sector.

"The priority seems to be the RAV Line in Vancouver and Richmond and all the rest of it and the tri-cities are ignored."

He says Translink and the province are treating people here like second-class citizens compared to Vancouver.







Translink says Evergreen plans much further along than Millennium extension
Sep, 14 2007 - 9:10 AM

VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980) - Translink's Ken Hardie says planning for the Evergreen Line is much further along than the Millennium Line extension, however they still are $400 million short for the Evergreen Line.

"The Evergreen Line is the one that's furthest along on our list of things to do. We have the corridor, the technology, a lot of that work has been done. We’re now waiting for partnerships BC to conclude their review of the business case to see if this project makes a good possible P-3. At the same time we've launched a three-phase study to look at the Broadway corridor to find out what's next, what do we do beyond VCC-Clark on the Millennium Line?"








Burnaby mayor Dereck Corrigan calls Sullivan's plans "selfish."
Sep, 14 2007 - 9:40 AM

VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980) - He says there's no way a Millennium Line extension and the long-overdue Evergreen Line can be funded and completed in the same generation.

Corrigan - a longtime critic of the Canada Line - says extending the Millennium Line won't reduce congestion on the roads.

"There’s many communities in Metro Vancouver that have been waiting to get some kind of service that's going to help take commuters off the highway. And for Sullivan to say, well Vancouver again should get the line, just seems to be awfully egotistical and awfully self-centered on the part of Vancouver."

He also questions how Translink would come up with the additional money.





As is, the slug called the Evergreen Line wouldn't do much in helping relieve road congestion anyway.

And selfish? Wasn't Corrigan the one that was against the Canada Line purely because he wanted the Northeast Sector line to be completed first? Didn't the eastern half of the region already get two lines??? There's already two lines serving his city, Burnaby.

He also ignores the facts that there are already 100,000 people using the Broadway buses each day, and 60,000 use the 99 B-Line. The 99 B-Line is becoming more and more incompetent year after year as ridership grows. If buses already run at frequencies of a minute and less at peak hours, what would it be like in 2011? The Broadway corridor is already quite congested from all the buses.


Derek Corrigan should just shut up. He's really not in any position to voice out since he's already got 2 SKYTRAIN lines.

Ignore this guy. He's just full of hypocrisy. And a big kudos to Sam Sullivan for the guts to push the M-Line extension forward!!

And selfish? Wasn't Corrigan the one that was against the Canada Line purely because he wanted the Northeast Sector line to be completed first? Didn't the eastern half of the region already get two lines??? There's already two lines serving his city, Burnaby.

I thought it was because of the cost, due mostly to the fact that it was built underground (which neither Burnaby line was given the luxury of).

Anyways, if they have to defer Evergreen once more, the least they should do is run an all-day WCE as an interim solution.

They should just kill the Evergreen Line already. It isn't going to solve anything by building a glorified streetcar.

Or better yet, why not just complete the entire M-Line as SkyTrain?

West to UBC, and East to Coquitlam?

The "problem of money" is easily solved if there was the will to do it. Someone needs to have a vision, unfortunately, no one in positions of power has any sort of vision for the future.

I don't know why light rail/rapid bus is so popular (you can see in the transit trade magazines) in North America, building them isn't going to solve traffic problems.....just look at Seattle, a system with 90%+ heavy rail infrastructure running light rail cars on a short stretch that is at-grade...

The most important thing IMO "rapid transit" is frequency, standing on the platform waiting for 10 mins for the next train is like riding a bus. Real rapid transit needs to have the capability of having frequencies of less than 2 minutes in order to change people's perceptions.

My thoughts exactly. Who exactly is going to take a tram to Lougheed Mall (30 minutes) then hop on Millennium line (20 minutes) and then switch to Expo line for 10 minutes to get tow work downtown? That's over an hour of commute to get to work (assuming you work downtown). It's far better to take the WestCoast Express. If anything they should boost that service for the time being and look into possibility of more commuter trains from the valley.

Politicians fear Broadway will beat Evergreen Line

By Jeff Nagel Black Press

Sep 16 2007

A behind-the-scenes battle over which part of Metro Vancouver should get the next rapid transit line has just broken wide open.

Vancouver Mayor Sam Sullivan announced Friday he’ll begin a formal lobbying campaign to promote a proposed extension of the Millennium SkyTrain line west along Broadway, first to Arbutus and eventually to UBC.

He said the heavily congested Broadway corridor is a nightmare for bus users and needs to become the region’s next top priority after the planned $1-billion Evergreen Line.

Although Sullivan has not officially sought to leap-frog the West Broadway extension past the planned light rail line to Port Moody and Coquitlam, his move has angered Port Moody Mayor Joe Trasolini.

“The announcement of their lobbying is ill-timed, premature and it will give senior levels of government the opportunity to divide and conquer,” he said.

Trasolini said Vancouver needs the Broadway extension, but should have waited until all funding is in place for the Evergreen Line.

The project has $400 million committed by TransLink and $170 million from the province. Nothing yet has come from Ottawa but Victoria has indicated more contributions will come to bridge the shortfall.

A review of how the project may work as a public-private partnership is underway.

Trasolini said Vancouver’s campaign will give senior governments the chance to point at the two expensive projects and question which should proceed.

“They can say ‘You guys can’t get your act together. You’re looking for more Evergreen Line funding but you’re also looking for more money for a line in Vancouver. Get your act together.’”

The Evergreen Line, long the top regional priority, has been bypassed twice before — first by the Millennium Line and then by the Canada Line — both times because senior governments favoured other routes.

“It looks like history is repeating itself,” Trasolini fumed.

Northeast sector cities east of Burnaby are supposed to take much of Metro Vancouver’s future growth, but that depends heavily on the rapid transit line.

Port Moody council has blocked all major development approvals since March — freezing projects worth $2 billion — and Trasolini vows that will continue until the Evergreen Line is approved.

“The Livable Region Strategic Plan told us to grow, grow, grow,” he said. “We have grown under the promise of a rapid transit line.”

He said that growth will continue to “grind to a halt” putting increased development pressure on the rest of Metro Vancouver.

Vancouver directors on TransLink persuaded the board in June to start spending money to study the Broadway extension.

TransLink has estimated a Millennium Line extension as far as Cambie, to tie in with the Canada Line, would cost $400 million.

What type of line would run further west on Broadway is undetermined.

Burnaby Mayor Derek Corrigan said Sullivan is “dreaming in technicolour” to think there is even enough money for Evergreen let alone Broadway.

He said Vancouver is wrong to divert attention away from the northeast sector priority.

Corrigan also argues that the province must put much more money on the table.

“The provincial government is down from formally taking care of 100% of these rapid transit lines to funding less than 20%,” he said.

“There’s no way the property tax payer or TransLink can afford another expensive tunnelled line in Vancouver.”




$400 million to Cambie sounds about right if we compare what $2 billion does for the Canada Line.


And with all the fuss about regional transit priorities, kill the Evergreen LRT and replace it with SkyTrain on the same route. Also build the Broadway extension with the Coquitlam extension, and call it Rapid Transit Project 2013 or something......put it all together under one project.

I wouldn't want the Evergreen Line built after the Broadway extension... like what Sam Sullivan said (finally a poltician that actually does some pushing for the public) I think both should be built at the same time. Hopefully Evergreen becomes SkyTrain as well increasing the frequency of the M-Line as well as increasing overall system ridership.

You'd have to be blind not to see that the Broadway corridor has the most immediate need for a line in the entire metro. It's bursting at the seams. It should've been in place 5+ years ago. No offense to the northeast but I'm afraid Vancouver is more important than you whether you like it or not. It's a gathering place for people from across the entire metro, the northeast is not. Broadway being more efficient helps out all the suburbs in one way or another. I really hope the Broadway extension isn't built after the Evergreen Line. Broadway can't wait another 5+ years. If they're built at the same time, great, but if Broadway manages to sneak ahead (as it rightfully should based on current demand), I certainly won't loose any sleep over the fact that the northeast has to deal with riding buses and taking the WCE for another few years. In the meantime, at least they won't have to wait as several buses pass them by each morning as is the current case on Broadway.

Politicians fear Broadway will beat Evergreen Line



“They can say ‘You guys can’t get your act together. You’re looking for more Evergreen Line funding but you’re also looking for more money for a line in Vancouver. Get your act together.’”



Maybe they should ALSO say, "You guys can't get your act together. You're looking for more Evergreen Line funding but it's not even a proper rapid transit system, and you didn't even try unifying the entire rapid transit system in Metro Vancouver and provide an effective alternative to cars. Get your act together."

anyone read metro today? the little section where they ask people of the street for opinions on things was about the evergreen vs ubc debate, and all the people pretty much were saying: well like ummm ya theres lots of people in the suburbs so they should build evergreen first. dumbasses... mabey one day they should ask people who actually know what theyre talking about

anyone read metro today? the little section where they ask people of the street for opinions on things was about the evergreen vs ubc debate, and all the people pretty much were saying: well like ummm ya theres lots of people in the suburbs so they should build evergreen first. dumbasses... mabey one day they should ask people who actually know what theyre talking about

lol I noticed that too! Sam just can't get a break :p

But I'm sure we all realize how biased that "survey" could be. 3 random people is not at all reflective of the public's true opinion on the matter.

i especially liked the one person's comment about how the NE sector needs better transit but theres already alot of busses on broadway. mabey if they build a UBC line then they can put those busses on the 97 route. sometimes i think people dont understand potulation density at all... also if any of you happened to catch metro today there was a very cool picture on the cover

And it keeps coming! :D



Plans for Broadway line in the works?
By DHARM MAKWANA, 24 HOURS | Sept. 17, 2007

Millennium Line tracks will be laid along Broadway Street to ease the transit crush, according to a pair of Vancouver politicos.

Mayor Sam Sullivan and Coun. Suzanne Anton are moving forward with a brain trust of transportation experts to determine how best to extend the Millennium Line past VCC-Clark Station to Central Broadway, eventually connecting to UBC.

"By the time you get to the state that Broadway is in you can't service it with more buses," Anton said. "It can't physically hold much more than it's holding right now."

Preliminary talks, scheduled for October, will address potential routes, available technology and long-term designs on the region's transit grid, including the proposed Evergreen Line.

Both Sullivan and Anton have said light-rail transit serving communities east of Burnaby is essential to ease the environmental burden caused by the region's growth.

Talks for a Broadway line, originally set to take place last year, are happening before Evergreen plans are finalized to ensure the project is in the queue for funding once current projects are completed.

TransLink is spending $1 million for its own study on the topic.

Anton said a draft proposal regarding the city's study will be submitted to council in the coming weeks but construction may be more than a decade away.:bash:



More than a decade away???? We need it today!








Vancouver transit line expansion plan worries business owners
Last Updated: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 | 10:09 AM ET
CBC News

Some business owners along Vancouver's busy West Broadway Street are worried they could be in for a rerun of the disruption caused by tunnelling on Cambie Street.

Vancouver Mayor Sam Sullivan is pushing for expansion of the Millennium Skytrain line rapid transit project west to Arbutus street.

Sullivan said if the project goes ahead, it likely won't be the sort of "cut-and-cover tunnel" that has been a nightmare for the Cambie neighbourhood because it is located along the Skytrain route.

Martini's Pizza on West Broadway may be four blocks east of the Canada Line construction, but owner Jim Georgas said his family's 31-year old business has felt the impact.

"I think people just avoided the area … because they're [under the mistaken impression] that if they come here, they're not going to be able to get parking and the place is inaccessible and all that — so it did affect us for awhile."

If the expansion proceeds, Sullivan said the rapid transit line would run in a tunnel dug underneath West Broadway.

"The studies that we have now indicate a bored tunnel is the way to go so we wouldn't see the kind of disruption we've seen on Cambie," he said.

Georgas said that's nice to hear. But he recalled what Cambie merchants and homeowners were told before that project started.

"If they were told that and they went back on their word, then who's to say they're not going to do the same along West Broadway?" he said.

Work on the extending the Millennium Line west is likely years away.

But even so, Georgas would like a guarantee West Broadway won't become the next "big dig."




A bored tunnel underneath Broadway? Surely, he must have meant 10th Avenue, with station entrances on Broadway. I thought there is a GVRD (or rather Metro Van.) trunk sewer under Broadway?

A bored tunnel underneath Broadway? Surely, he must have meant 10th Avenue, with station entrances on Broadway. I thought there is a GVRD (or rather Metro Van.) trunk sewer under Broadway?

I think so. I found this:

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/8366/utilityinfomapja0.th.jpg (http://img338.imageshack.us/my.php?image=utilityinfomapja0.jpg)

I think it shows a sewer main along Broadway, but the map resolution makes it difficult to tell.

A bored tunnel underneath Broadway? Surely, he must have meant 10th Avenue, with station entrances on Broadway. I thought there is a GVRD (or rather Metro Van.) trunk sewer under Broadway?

You're giving Sam Sullivan too much credit on the knowledge scale.

Yes, there are too many utilities under Broadway to place the line there - it would be worse to excavate than Cambie at the station locations - that's why 10th is the favoured route.
Even the City of Vancouver's reports show that.
The trunk sewer is under 8th Avenue. Not sure about water mains or other sewers.

The "Broadway Corridor" has usually be described as the corridor between 8th and 10th along the length of Broadway.

http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20071113/documents/a5.pdf


Cash for SkyTrain plan?
By DHARM MAKWANA, 24 HOURS




Vancouver city council is today reviewing Mayor Sam Sullivan's proposal to establish a planning team in support of extending the Millennium Line west along the Broadway corridor.

"In addition to supporting engineering and planning, it will help facilitate public involvement in project design," Sullivan said.

The proposal calls for a $580,000 investment annually from 2008 to 2010 to finance the project.

Planners will also investigate potential for new B-Line routes on West Hastings Street and 41st Avenue, upgrades to Expo Line stations and long-term transit plans.

Coun. Raymond Louie said formalizing the planning process is long overdue, considering he and former mayor Larry Campbell forwarded a similar proposal during the previous council.

"Working in conjunction with TransLink to do proper planning, unlike the mayor's unsubstantiated personal polling, which is a political exercise, is legitimate work," he said.


Sullivan plans to continue holding roundtable meetings with stakeholders, such as UBC officials, in the coming weeks.

Coun. Suzanne Anton met with business owners along the Broadway corridor last week to begin discussions on how businesses will be affected by the Millennium Line extension through its construction to its completion. Sullivan plans to begin regular meetings with business owners next month.

Glad this is still alive.

I hope it happens soon. From VCC the line should tunnel under Broadway or 10th to connect with the Canada Line ASAP, and then on to Arbutus in the near future. Otherwise, the thousands of additional passengers from the Evergreen line will only cause Commercial/Broadway to become more of a bottleneck than it already is, and they too will wish that the Millennium Line had been continued beyond VCC.

Did Translink have the forethought of having a "roughed in" at Broad/Cambie RAV station for an eventual Broadway MLine extention?
They should simply ext MLine to Arbutus on the west and all the way to Coq Centre in the east via Lougheed. Make it a truly seamless route.
LRT can be great but it should be for long routes not stubs like Evergreen.
A good place for LRT would be Waterfront to Willington along Hastings.

At the Cambie and Broadway intersection, the Canada Line tunnels are side-by-side to allow the Millennium Line station to sit underneath, and the CL station there was designed to connect with an eventual ML station. But the future Millennium Line station has not been roughed-in because they still don't know if it will be under Broadway or under 10th.

I love LRT but agree that both Millennium Line extensions, East and West, should be seamless, ie SkyTrain. I also agree with the Eastern extension being along Lougheed, as it would allow for SkyTrain technology. A line should also go from Lougheed Town Centre to Port Mann Bridge and beyond.

The Arbutus corridor would be OK for LRT, I guess.

where would it go? kerrisdale and marpole? it might work alright

where would it go? kerrisdale and marpole? it might work alright

it could terminate at the Canada Line's Marine Drive Station or cross the river into Richmond to Steveston.

it could terminate at the Canada Line's Marine Drive Station or cross the river into Richmond to Steveston.

Or it could continue past Canada Line's Marine Drive Station, eastward along the existing right of way, to New Westminster or beyond. At any rate, it would be great for the Millennium Line to reach Arbutus, especially if the Arbutus corridor got an LRT.

Or it could continue past Canada Line's Marine Drive Station, eastward along the existing right of way, to New Westminster or beyond. At any rate, it would be great for the Millennium Line to reach Arbutus, especially if the Arbutus corridor got an LRT.

It could also serve the new East Fraserlands development, which is quite similar to Southeast False Creek/Olympic Village. It'll be home to 13,000 residents, with condo towers, office, parks, etc.

Yes! The East Fraserlands development (which I knew nothing about until a minute or two ago) looks like a prime candidate for an LRT connection to the Canada Line.

Back to Millennium Line West: I thought there already was a study done and that they chose SkyTrain technology over LRT or buses. Why study it again? Do they really expect to unearth some other option?

Well if I remember correctly, I think the M-Line extension was based on a study by the City of Vancouver YEARS AGO. TransLink must offically study the extension before they can go ahed with the proposal/construction. If it wasn't so dated, I think TransLink might not study the extension... But you never know... ALL VANCOUVERITES know the TRANSLINK WAYS of doing things.

Yes! The East Fraserlands development (which I knew nothing about until a minute or two ago) looks like a prime candidate for an LRT connection to the Canada Line.

Back to Millennium Line West: I thought there already was a study done and that they chose SkyTrain technology over LRT or buses. Why study it again? Do they really expect to unearth some other option?

The City and Translink did a study on an Millennium Line extension in 2000, details can be found here: http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/millennium_extension.htm

But of course, ridership would be a lot lot lot more than the figures in the 2000 report since we've had quite a bit of population and transit ridership growth since. More importantly, the U-Pass wasn't introduced in 2000.

I'm not sure either why they're going back to the drawing board again with more studies...the obvious solution is SkyTrain, they would be deemed incompetent if they chose LRT or dared to even mention rapid bus.

The rapid bus proposal below is what the 99 B-Line already does today, no need to spend $90 million. :D



2000 Proposals:

Broadway RapidBus

RapidBus service allows more people to travel faster because the buses are larger, and they make fewer stops. Passengers buy their ticket before they get on the bus and board through all doors. A RapidBus does not travel at higher speeds. RapidBus on Broadway would feature:

- Long electric trolleybuses (buses hinged in the middle to allow for more riders).
- Diesel buses could also be used at a lower cost but with reduced -ironmental benefits.
- Dedicated bus lanes between Commercial Drive and Arbutus during peak hours (peak period parking is already restricted).
- Buses will be able to by-pass congestion at major intersections. #9 local Broadway bus would run between Boundary and Granville only. #10 UBC and #16 Arbutus local bus service west of Granville would continue.

http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/images/rapidbus_chart.gif
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/images/rapidbus_route.gif



Broadway Light Rail Transit

LRT uses electrically-powered rail cars that operate singly or in trains. The system moves more people faster than buses because LRT cars are larger than buses and run on dedicated tracks separated from traffic. LRT in the Broadway corridor would extend from Commercial Drive to UBC and would feature:

- Two-car trains during most hours of operation.
- Converting two traffic lanes for LRT use on Broadway and on 10th Ave west of Alma.
- Closely spaced stations between Main and Granville, eliminating local #9 Broadway bus service west of Main. #10 UBC and #16 Arbutus local bus service west of Granville would continue.

http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/images/lrt_chart.gif
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/images/lrt_route.gif



Broadway SkyTrain & Rapid Bus

Most Vancouver residents are familiar with SkyTrain. But SkyTrain west of VCC would be different from the system we have now. It would run underground, making the new westbound extension feel more like a subway, similar to the SkyTrain line running underground from Stadium Station to Waterfront Station.

The consultants studied four SkyTrain options, each featuring a link with RapidBus to UBC. The four options would extend as far west as Main, Cambie, Granville or Arbutus; SkyTrain is not being considered west of Arbutus. SkyTrain on Broadway would feature:

- SkyTrain station entrances located at major intersections (Main, Oak, Cambie, Granville, Arbutus), however, the tunnel itself could be built on either Broadway or 10th Avenue.
- #9 local Broadway bus would run between Boundary and Granville only.
- #10 UBC and #16 Arbutus local bus service west of Granville would continue.

http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/images/skytrain_chart.gif
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/images/skytrain_route.gif

^^

Yeah I've seen this study before. They should just go straight to building the skytrain extension to Arbutus ASAP. It's the obvious choice.

That study was by the City of Vancouver, not Translink.
The study was used by the City of Vancouver to decide which option the City preferred and what the City's position (recommendation) would be to propose to Translink.
i.e. a study to back up the City's political posturing at the (old) Translink board.

gotta love bureaucracy

According to the schedule there should be some public consultation soon where we can see what the alignment and technology options are.

^^

To what schedule are you referring?

Page 9 of this link (provided at the beginning, by the initiator of this thread)...

http://www.translink.bc.ca/files/boa..._27_07/4.7.pdf

...has a Public Consultation schedule that begins just about now, towards the end of Phase 1.

re; the route it could follow along to that new development in east van along the river and than east into burnaby along maribe drive or the river - a few big offices out there and a new shopping area, than into new west and maybe across to Queensborough and than to delta and into surrey/scott road and maybe into newton?

that would be cool

re; the route it could follow along to that new development in east van along the river and than east into burnaby along maribe drive or the river - a few big offices out there and a new shopping area, than into new west and maybe across to Queensborough and than to delta and into surrey/scott road and maybe into newton?

that would be cool

Don't forget a transfer station at the Canada Line Marine Drive Station and bus loop.

And with regards to a train depot, build it AWAY from the river...after what happened to the trolleys with all that humidity freezing up the electric wires and an probable more rapid rust.

Well, it looks like this is going to happen, and all the way to UBC, no less! Of course, according to the $14 billion transit plan announced today, this project will be completed by 2020. That's a long time but at least it's on the radar. My question is, will it be 12 or 13 years before we can take the Millennium Line beyond VCC, or will there be a first-stage extension at least to Cambie Street and the Canada Line say, three or four years from now?

Well, it looks like this is going to happen, and all the way to UBC, no less! Of course, according to the $14 billion transit plan announced today, this project will be completed by 2020. That's a long time but at least it's on the radar. My question is, will it be 12 or 13 years before we can take the Millennium Line beyond VCC, or will there be a first-stage extension at least to Cambie Street and the Canada Line say, three or four years from now?

i have a feeling it will be done in stages. Falcon said boring will start almost immediately for the UBC line. The Canada Line tunnel boring machine Sweet Leilani would have finished her job sometime this spring. Who knows, boring for the UBC line could start in 2009?

I wonder what Falcon means by "almost immediately". There's probably a lot of technical, engineering, design, route etc. work to do before starting up the boring machine in the general direction of UBC. Would love to watch the progress of the next rapid transit project as the Canada Line finishes. That would be great! I'm trying to imagine how long it would take one boring machine to travel 12 km, then do it again. Of course, we don't know if it's all going to be bored do we, or any details yet?

I wonder what Falcon means by "almost immediately". There's probably a lot of technical, engineering, design, route etc. work to do before starting up the boring machine in the general direction of UBC. Would love to watch the progress of the next rapid transit project as the Canada Line finishes. That would be great! I'm trying to imagine how long it would take one boring machine to travel 12 km, then do it again. Of course, we don't know if it's all going to be bored do we, or any details yet?

According to deasine, on a radio interview on CKNW, Falcon said:

Kevin Falcon just said in an phone interview on CKNW that the Millennium UBC route will be:
- Very probably Skytrain,
- Bored Tunnel,
- Under Broadway,
and
- will begin very very soon, almost immediately to benefit from the tunelling synergies of the Canada Line (read: use the same tunnel boring machine)

We all know how the provincial gov't rolls. Start construction before the design is completed! :nuts: (convention centre)

If the Millennium-to-UBC tunnel boring is to start almost immediately then it's good news indeed. The three-year study they were going to do in order to find the best route/technology is far too long anyway. SkyTrain under Broadway or 10th seems to be the only real contender. Perhaps they can bore to Arbutus and get that section finished, then continue on to UBC as time and feds allow.

I hope they have the vision to make the stations as long as the updated EXPO line will be. Even if not used immediatly they should be built initially so as not to have to be done later. The current MLine would have to expanded stations but that will be much easier and cheaper than trying to expand current underground station.

I hope they have the vision to make the stations as long as the updated EXPO line will be. Even if not used immediatly they should be built initially so as not to have to be done later. The current MLine would have to expanded stations but that will be much easier and cheaper than trying to expand current underground station.

agreed. Still, it's no big deal to expand platforms in tunnels :) (I'm k idding of course). Learn from the past. London England in 1890 the City and South London Railway built a deep level tube line from Stockwell to The City. It was only a few years later that they had to completely abandon the line and bore new bigger tunnels and by around 1907 had extended north and south. Still, they screwed up again - and in the 1920s the line was closed for years while the tunnels where enlarged (just imagine the work involved in that) to the current tube standard.

Still, even today, they're paying the price for cheaping out in the past. The old stations, in a single tube with narrow platforms, cannot handle today's crowds and new tunnels and platforms have had to be constructed at many of the stations on the line.

This will be the Canada Line in 20 years when they realise the stations are inadequate.

^ i couldn't agree more.

According to deasine, on a radio interview on CKNW, Falcon said:

I don't think I said anything about CKNW... wrong reference there =P

The need fo expanded platforms along the UBC Line would depend on whether the City of Vancouver significantly densifies along the corridor.

The need fo expanded platforms along the UBC Line would depend on whether the City of Vancouver significantly densifies along the corridor.

Well, lets hope that the platforms are built to be expandable in the future...


I wonder who will be responsible for expanding the Canada Line platforms to 50-metres. The public or InTransitBC (because they haven't met the 15,000 pphpd requirement under their contract with 40-metre platforms)?

They need to make it expandable for sure - just like the entire current SkyTrain system is expandable. But they aren't expanding the platforms for the M-Line... WE NEED MORE PPL RIDING IT =)

I'm sure the MLine ext will be opened in phase. The first phase would be to Cambie to connect it to the RAV. After that I can see the next phase to Dunbar. The UBC section probably won't be done by 202 but the other phases will get done much faster.

I'm sure the MLine ext will be opened in phase. The first phase would be to Cambie to connect it to the RAV. After that I can see the next phase to Dunbar. The UBC section probably won't be done by 202 but the other phases will get done much faster.

I think the tunnelling machine requires a huge hole for positioning it and removing it, and I don't think Cambie at Broadway is a good place for that, as there will already be a finished station there. There is plenty room at Arbutus, so that could be a decent place for the first phase to end.

^ rather, Cambie and 10th.

According to deasine, on a radio interview on CKNW, Falcon said:



We all know how the provincial gov't rolls. Start construction before the design is completed! :nuts: (convention centre)

The Daily Planet had a segment early in the week on the Canada Line (specifically the tunnel boring machine) and at the end of it they brought up the fact that the TBM will be sold off and sent to another site as it will have 15+kms
of construction life left in it once it has completed it's work downtown. It would make alot of sense if it were put to use right away on the UBC line as I'm sure it would save tons of money reusing the same machine rather than importing a new one.

I believe it would more likely do that little bit for the Evergreen line. Only because I think there has been more work gone into route and basic design, so it's ahead of the game. All we know about the Millenium Line extension right now is a point A and point B.

I believe it would more likely do that little bit for the Evergreen line. Only because I think there has been more work gone into route and basic design, so it's ahead of the game. All we know about the Millenium Line extension right now is a point A and point B.

i agree. The Evergreen Line tunnel is about 3 kms long. Multiply both tunnels, and you're looking at 6-kms of bored tunnel. If the boring machine has 15-kms worth of mileage left, it can do that.

But the UBC line will be a bit too much. The line is 12-kms long...that means old Sweet Leilani would have to bore 24-kms.

Would it be possible to retrofit the machine or replace the bore head so that it's usable life could be extended?

I don't see why they can't just replace the cutting heads on theTBM and keep going. One factor to consider is that the Canada Line tunnel diameter is large than would be required to Skytrain - so that multiplies into extra costs for removing and disposing of more spoil than is necessary.

I agree (and it has been mentioned in the press) that the Evergreen Line has priority over the UBC Line - so it would be the logical choice for the TBM to move to.

In the past, the Flase Creek Flats have always been considered the initial staging area for an M-Line extension TBM. But as seen at Pender, the TBM can be extracted at a station site without problem.

In the past, the Flase Creek Flats have always been considered the initial staging area for an M-Line extension TBM. But as seen at Pender, the TBM can be extracted at a station site without problem.

But wouldn't it be logical to start right after VCC Station, at the Flats?

^^ Yes but that would piss off a lot of people out in the tri-cities who will just complain that they're getting screwed again.

Personally, I don't think the MLine should go all the way to UBC or atleast not yet.
All the way to Dunbar/Alma would do nicely for now and use the rest of the funds elsewhere.
I think the SkyTrain Ext of Waterfront to Kootenay Loop would be money better spent. It would help diversify the area, manage growth and get the buses out of downtown.
Anyone who knows the route can tell you that Hastings is a FAR more congested bus route than UBC will ever be.

It would help densify the area and create a urban route along Vancouver's most historic road into the city and would have very high ridership.
Hastings due to all the the buses and traffic getting to HWY #1 is a much more congested route than Broadway west of Dunbar. Its a busy route but a free-flowing one unlike Hastings.

Of what I can count Hastings east of Main is home to 8 regular bus routes which does not include rush-hour buses. Broadway west of Dunbar is used by 2 as that is all that is needed. There is the old #9 and the #99 which west of Dunbar would easily do the trick. West of Dunbar there is also very little ability to increase the population or its density as all the land is used up by current apt and low density high priced single family homes.

Personally, I don't think the MLine should go all the way to UBC or atleast not yet.
All the way to Dunbar/Alma would do nicely for now and use the rest of the funds elsewhere.
I think the SkyTrain Ext of Waterfront to Kootenay Loop would be money better spent. It would help diversify the area, manage growth and get the buses out of downtown.


I have wondered about this myself. The Expo Line could branch at the Clark Drive flyover and parallel the Glen Drive rail yard, dip under Hastings St, where a station would be built, and parallel the CPR rail yards to Waterfront Station. Most of the line would not be viaduct, but fenced similarly to the Expo Line between Joyce and Nanaimo Stations. I am not sure if the line could dip under the Terminal Ave viaduct owing to grade considerations, but if it could, it would be similar to the Expo Line just west of Main St Station. The loop would alleviate some of the crowding between Broadway and Burrard Stations.

But wouldn't it be logical to start right after VCC Station, at the Flats?

The guideway would be elevated from VCC Station, then descend into a cut and cover tunnel to Finning Station, then would enter a bored tunnel under Great Northern Way and up Prince Edward Street to 10th Ave. The staging area would be at or west of Finning Station.

**********

Anecdotal post by "Budd Campbell" (not his real name) over at Stephen Rees blog - sounds like he's talking about 10th Ave. - if so, maybe it will be under Broadway (at higher cost):

I have an anecdote in this regard. A realtor I knew left real estate in the mid 90s and joined the Rapid Transit project office when the Millenium line was being built. He told me that at one point they thought they had agreement with the City of Vancouver on a route west from the VCC station, not as far as UBC or anything as ambitious as that, but at least to Granville or Burrard, enough to service the mid-town business precincts and to connect to the eventual RAV line, assuming a Cambie route rather than Arbutus. They were all elated.

But then a few days later the second round of phone calls started coming in from 12th and Cambie. “We’re really sorry, forget everything we said, the deal is a no-go. We’ve checked with the homeowners around City Hall and they just won’t hear of it. Sorry about this, hope you understand. Bye now. CLICK”. And that was the end of any extensions of the Millenium line west of VCC.

To me the important point of this anecdote is that the City officials were caught off guard by the reaction of the homeowners. These officials would have had what they thought was a pretty good idea of what would and would not fly with their constituents based on numerous previous consultations. But when they took what the thought would be an acceptable proposal to these people, the homeowners went ballistic. Sometime in the previous few years the attitudes of these homeowners seems to have changed. They had became much more restrictve, much more suspicious and cautious in terms of what developments they would approve of. My suspicion is that the late 1980s - early 1990s round of price increases had made these people much more conservative, even reactionary in terms of their political positioning, since they had a larger equity investment to protect.

The guideway would be elevated from VCC Station, then descend into a cut and cover tunnel to Finning Station, then would enter a bored tunnel under Great Northern Way and up Prince Edward Street to 10th Ave. The staging area would be at or west of Finning Station.


Hmmmm...that's what i thought as well, which goes along with the 2002 plan posted on the city's rapid transit extension section.

And interesting post, i wonder how they would react today.

Does anyone have a map of the proposed route? I'm having a really hard time trying to imagine the route and where the proposed stations will be located.

http://members.shaw.ca/clauf/001.PNG

http://members.shaw.ca/clauf/002.PNG

From the City of Vancouver Millennium Line Rapid Transit Archives

I title this one "Why I was late for Class Today":


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2063/2216003560_ddda8601eb.jpg?v=0


For every one else I call it "We Need Millennium Line West ASAP".

I title this one "Why I was late for Class Today":


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2063/2216003560_ddda8601eb.jpg?v=0


For every one else I call it "We Need Millennium Line West ASAP".

Oh dear... that lineup is only too familiar! Good photo.

And thanks for the map and plan, deasine. The way the Millennium Line will go down to Finning Station (on the False Creek Flats) and then curve back up to Main/Kingsway is ingenious. This will bring the False Creek Flats out of isolation and allow for some amazing things to happen. It's such a central place in the city.

I title this one "Why I was late for Class Today":


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2063/2216003560_ddda8601eb.jpg?v=0


For every one else I call it "We Need Millennium Line West ASAP".


LMAO....at first, i thought it was a lineup into VCC-Clarke Station, a train must've broken down. But then I looked closer, and saw a 40-foot diesel bus....which must've been the 84.:lol:

Somebody needs to send this to Victoria: we need the UBC extension TODAY!...nevermind 2020.

^^

You notice how the lineup goes beyond the sidewalk:nuts:

It was about 8:15, and I waited almost 20 min for a bus.

If you're serious Mr.X who should I send it to?

Your MLA.

I title this one "Why I was late for Class Today":


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2063/2216003560_ddda8601eb.jpg?v=0


For every one else I call it "We Need Millennium Line West ASAP".

Perhaps you should get a bicycle.

^^ Biking from VCC-Clark to UBC in the winter cold, sounds like fun. :lol:

If the rain doesn't kill you, the big hill up 10th Ave will.

The BC/Vancouver transit plan of 2020 is too general. Toronto's TransitCity plan which is much larger and extensive was announce but clearly stated that 60% will be completed by 2015. The government should have been more specific about timelines.

^^

You notice how the lineup goes beyond the sidewalk:nuts:

It was about 8:15, and I waited almost 20 min for a bus.

If you're serious Mr.X who should I send it to?

Send it to Translink / Coast Mountain Bus. This problem can be resolved in the short term with increased frequency on the 84 bus. From what I understand, frequency is supposed to be increased - the pic could help spur that change.

^^ Biking from VCC-Clark to UBC in the winter cold, sounds like fun. :lol:

If the rain doesn't kill you, the big hill up 10th Ave will.

i usually ride from SFU to langara college and its not so bad. you dont have to wait for the 49 bus or the main bus which are really my 2 best options and they both suck. i save about 15-20 minutes and you get pretty warm after a few minutes.

Perhaps you should get a bicycle.

I live by lougheed mall, so I couldn't put a bike on the train during this time of day even if I wanted to.

It would be better if they time the 84 bus with the Millennium Line. I'm often late for work or JUST on time because of seeing a 84 bus go by when I run down the escalators from the platform to ground level.

I live by lougheed mall, so I couldn't put a bike on the train during this time of day even if I wanted to.


Understood! But like Worldwide said, biking does suck for the first bit but let me tell you after you do it your day will be better. You will also be mentally sharper from your physical workout.
I think it would be a great idea to have a secure lockup for bicycles at differant areas or stations so that communters have a place too store there bikes. Then ride to there destination.

What percentage of people, that get off at VCC in the morning, would you think take the 84 bus? VCC is sort of in 'no mans land', so I would imagine most people transfering onto a bus to somewhere. The busses probably wouldn't be able to keep up with loaded skytrain cars.

i usually ride from SFU to langara college and its not so bad. you dont have to wait for the 49 bus or the main bus which are really my 2 best options and they both suck. i save about 15-20 minutes and you get pretty warm after a few minutes.
You bike up the mountain? That's some stamina (or maybe I'm just flabby :tongue2: )
What percentage of people, that get off at VCC in the morning, would you think take the 84 bus? VCC is sort of in 'no mans land', so I would imagine most people transfering onto a bus to somewhere. The busses probably wouldn't be able to keep up with loaded skytrain cars.
The traffic is mostly composed of students during rush hour, some go off to VCC but the vast majority wait for the 84 (which is the only bus that connects to VCC).

I title this one "Why I was late for Class Today":


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2063/2216003560_ddda8601eb.jpg?v=0


For every one else I call it "We Need Millennium Line West ASAP".

Isn't it also about time they built a new UBC branch campus on the eastern side of the Lower Mainland (Surrey, perhaps), so that all its students won't have to be transported across the whole bloody city to its westernmost fringe to go to school?

^ the lineup for the 44 at UBC kinda looked like that tonight.

The #44 is the most pathetic excuse for a bus service ever. It always runs full during rush hours, leaving countless bus riders stranded at the bus loop or on the side of the road. This has been going on for years, and yet TransLink nor UBC have been able to solve the problem. I wonder what gives?

wait till the b-line in 09 or get rid gordo in 09 ......

good luck in getting rid of Gordon... many of the members here in this forum (and in SCP) has his vote already after the provincial transportation plan

Gordo has my vote for the next 30 years if his transit plan is actually realized.

Got mine too. He has made it pretty hard for the typical Vancouver green person not to vote for him right now. The plans seem almost too good to be true.

so what's happening with the broadway skytrain? this is going ahead for sure?? someone started talking about putting a skytrain along king ed so i kind of just skipped to the end...

so what's happening with the broadway skytrain? this is going ahead for sure?? someone started talking about putting a skytrain along king ed so i kind of just skipped to the end...

King Edward? lol, never gonna happen.

But the UBC SkyTrain extension will happen, 99.9%.

King Edward? lol, never gonna happen.

But the UBC SkyTrain extension will happen, 99.9%.


Oh c'mon man! King Edward, why not? We can cut down all those pretty trees in the median and build a nice elevated line to nowhere:lol:


Seriously though, maybe LRT in 50 years? Could be possible if the corridor got rezoned for mixed use with higher density.

I still think 41st would be a much better candidate even in the long term. It is, and will be, a busier corridor and has better connection potential to UBC. It is also further south from the future broadway line making it much more centralized north to south.

^ lol, even with a densified King Edward the best you might see would be a B-Line running down there using the 60-footer buses.

I agree, i've always thought that 41st is quite suitable for LRT/streetcar. It would be an obvious replacement of the future Joyce-UBC B-Line down there.

Isn't it also about time they built a new UBC branch campus on the eastern side of the Lower Mainland (Surrey, perhaps), so that all its students won't have to be transported across the whole bloody city to its westernmost fringe to go to school?

That's what on-campus residences are for. There were a number of students from Burnaby, Delta and Abbotsford when I was in residence.

^ lol, even with a densified King Edward the best you might see would be a B-Line running down there using the 60-footer buses.

There aren't many traffic generators along King Ed (not even at Cambie) - plus it dead ends at Crown - unless you want to allow a route through the heart of the endowment lands.

good luck with the ubc extension being done by 2020... look how he is stalling with the evergreen line.... if he does get elected ,god forbid, then i dont think he is going to do anything for 4 years and then start with more bold and vague plans and empty promises....

Mr X and others open your eyes... a good chunk of the transporation plan is being recycled like the canada line or the evergreen line... its not new.... same with rapid bus along 41st to ubc or along hastings to SFU

good luck with the ubc extension being done by 2020... look how he is stalling with the evergreen line.... if he does get elected ,god forbid, then i dont think he is going to do anything for 4 years and then start with more bold and vague plans and empty promises....

Mr X and others open your eyes... a good chunk of the transporation plan is being recycled like the canada line or the evergreen line... its not new.... same with rapid bus along 41st to ubc or along hastings to SFU

don't you think we would've figure that out already?

really, you're just overly negative and pessimistic.

The Premier seems quite passionate about his climate change plans. If he does stay in power, and likely will, I do think he will go through with these promises. They are the core of his climate change plan.

Gordo seems passionate for a lot of things. how come he wasnt able to finalize the route for the evergreen line or commit to adding more busses... something that mayor watts wants. i believe it was around 500 NEW busses for the south of fraser and this does not address the other problem areas. also raising fares doesnt help people want to take transit...

Mr x u know the problems with the Canada lines and yet there few criticisms about the millennium line that was built just before gordo entered. if you look at lougheed station, the station was engineered to support a expansion of the system... Gordo will walk around making empty promises and wooing voters and when it comes time to do something.... he will stall like what he is doing to the evergreen line. this line was supposed to be built in 2009 with the canada line and today i see no progress! i am thinking wishfully.

I don't think rising fares was ever the premier's problem.... it was the translink boards. You can go talk to him.

Remember this is a Provincial Transportation Plan, a goal to have these rapid transit commitments by 2020, not giving in-depth detail designs and renderings on every project. The Evergreen Line details will rise up in the next few months. There are speculations of it being SkyTrain as the cost is a whopping 1.4 billion dollars, which makes sense it it was SkyTrain.

I would have wanted the Canada Line before the Evergreen Line honestly. The Richmond-Vancouver corridor is heavily used. That being said, I'm also selfish since I will actually use the Canada Line, not the Evergreen.

You remind me of the NDP transportation critic.

Gordo seems passionate for a lot of things. how come he wasnt able to finalize the route for the evergreen line or commit to adding more busses... something that mayor watts wants. i believe it was around 500 NEW busses for the south of fraser and this does not address the other problem areas. also raising fares doesnt help people want to take transit...

Mr x u know the problems with the Canada lines and yet there few criticisms about the millennium line that was built just before gordo entered. if you look at lougheed station, the station was engineered to support a expansion of the system... Gordo will walk around making empty promises and wooing voters and when it comes time to do something.... he will stall like what he is doing to the evergreen line. this line was supposed to be built in 2009 with the canada line and today i see no progress! i am thinking wishfully.

The provincial government is working behind the scenes on the Evergreen Line. They don't have all the details together at this point (route, technology), which is why they haven't made any major announcements on that yet. More importantly, they want the federal government to pick up part of the Evergreen Line tab. And over the past year or year and a half, they've been working on the $14 billion transit plan - only to release it this month. And really, these plans were inspired by his climate change goals for the province - which really didn't take any priority until about 2 years ago.

The fact is, three years ago when the Canada Line deal was made Gordon Campbell was not too interested in transit and transportation. His Minister of Transportation, Kevin Falcon, was running the show. He was the one that proposed the Gateway project, it wasn't Campbell's idea at all. And really, his Minister wasn't particularly interested in transit until it became part of the official Liberal cabinet agenda. That is why Translink was unable to get funding for the Evergreen Line...not to mention that Falcon was angry at the Tri-City and eastern mayors for voting against the Canada Line twice.

And the Canada Line-Evergreen Line joint construction promise was different. Back then, Campbell wasn't interested in the Evergreen or at any green/transit initiatives. He needed Translink to say yes to the Canada Line for it to go ahead, and really the Canada Line was his pet project. They wanted to showcase it for 2010 as well as test out the P3 financing system.

With regards to new buses, it's also part of the $14 billion transit plan (to purchase 1,500 new buses and build a rapid bus network) that was also in works at the time. He couldn't have announced it.

We'll know a lot more about the transit plan when the government releases its budget at the throne speech in a few days/weeks.

And yes, you are being overly critical, negative, and pessimistic.

It'll all happen, as long as the money is there from the feds.

Vancouver needs to play catch-up with even smaller cities in the country and offer TRUE night time service. All the major routes and all the routes leaving the downtown should run til atleast 2am.
The SkyTrain does not need to run 24/7 but it's last train should be atleast an hour later than it is in both directions.
Living in White Rock the last 351 leaves downtown at 12:11....obsurd, made worse by the fact that it leaves at that time every hour. The bus ussually has 20-25 people on it on it's last run and would be much more if it was later because right now few people take it when going downtown past 8pm because they would have to leave by 12am so it is not a late night option. This area is also growing by leaps and bounds and most are younger families. The WR/SS area is now home to 85,000 and growing very fast.
People hear all the talk of how fast Surrey is growing but don'trealize much of that growth is in South Surrey

May as well post all the links I found relating to the M-Line and extensions from the BC Legislative Library here as well:

BTW searching the net I found this old BC Rapid Transit Project 2000 status report from April 2000 - March 2001:

http://www.llbc.leg.bc.ca/public/PubDocs/bcdocs/335410/2000-2001/at_a_glance.pdf

which had this status report on the PMC Line and the M-Line West:

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6314/newpicturewn5.png

Check this out -

BC Government Publications
Index for:
Rapid Transit Project 2000 Ltd.
Annual Report 2000/2001

http://www.llbc.leg.bc.ca/public/PubDocs/bcdocs/335410/2000-2001/

Interesting to note that on Page 12 it notes that the M-Line has a capacity of 30,000 per peak hour per direction.

On Page 21, it notes that up to $29.3 million was authorized for the Coquitlam pre-build - i.e. installation of the PMC Line track switches at Lougheed Station. The financial statements themselves show around $14 million being spent in 2000 and 2001 for the Coquitlam pre-build.

Deferred project costs also include funds being advanced by the Company for a Provincially approved pre-build of a connection at Lougheed Town Centre Station for the future Port Moody-Coquitlam Line. ... ...The Company is advancing funding for the Coquitlam Extension up to an approved value of $29.3 million.

All of the Rapid Transit Project 2000 Annual Reports:

http://www.llbc.leg.bc.ca/public/PubDocs/bcdocs/335410/index.htm

Interesting document from 1998 providing background of the M-Line entitled "Project Description":

http://www.llbc.leg.bc.ca./public/PubDocs/bcdocs/404493/ProjectDescription.pdf

Includes this chart (note that the max capacity of a MKII is 171 per car = 342 per train).

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/1407/newpicture1nw5.png

M-Line Ridership Study:
Go to Page 26 of this Ridership Study document for Skytrain Operating Line Options - i.e. the possible routes when the PMC Line was implemented - including a 4 route option!

http://www.llbc.leg.bc.ca./public/PubDocs/bcdocs/404488/RidershipForecastReport.pdf

Document entitled:
Translink
Broadway/Lougheed Rapid Transit Line, Phase 11 - Commercial Drive West
I think that this was the report removed from the City of Vancouver's website.

http://www.llbc.leg.bc.ca/public/PubDocs/bcdocs/360514/index.htm

Edit: Found it on the City's website using a search:
http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/ubcline/pdf/beyondthebline.pdf

Port Moody PMC Skytrain Portal Options Report:

http://www.llbc.leg.bc.ca/public/PubDocs/bcdocs/353522/port_mdy_sky_extension.pdf

Thanks for the links - those studies are really interesting and quite detailed. After Finning station, the tunnel will gently curve south and head under Prince Edward. But then there is a rather narrow curve from Prince Edward onto 10th Avenue: can SkyTrain do this? Turn on a one-block radius?

The curve at Main St. Science World is pretty sharp too... I'm sure it would work.

Thanks, I was trying to remember where there might be a sharp curve in the system - shall take a good look at it next time I'm there. The Bombardier site doesn't seem to have a whole lot of techical information, or perhaps one has to be half-decent at finding these things.

Anyway, with all the excitement at the Evergreen end of the line it really looks as though they mean business. The West extension can't be far behind.

BTW - looks like it'll be a tough negotiation with BNSF to acquire some right of way west of the existing tail tracks behind the QLT building.

http://www.globalairphotos.com/images/bc/vancouver/2007/vch2007_416.jpg

Here's the Finning Property rezoning report - the Finning Station is supposed to be underground in the parcel marked "Open Space". Looking at the photo, note the ROW travels through a number of existing buildings on the site.

http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20070626/documents/a8.pdf

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5767/newbitmapimageyd1.png

Can't they expropriate the land? Why do we have relics such as a train yard in the middle of the city? Everything there needs to go except 1 or two tracks leading to the train stations there. The train yard to the east of Canada Place should also go, as they have another yard right at the docks. The docks should eventually be moved somewhere else further from the city...

Relics?

You have absolutely no idea how much those rail lines mean to Vancouver, do you?

Expropiration from a railway - I'd have to look it up. Off hand, I would have said yes - BUT then again probably not the more I think about it.
The Expropriation Act is Provincial legislation and Translink (etc.) would expropriate under that Provincial authority. The railways operate under Federal authority and the Railways Act may have provisions that conflict with any proposed expropriation under the Provincial scheme. Where Provincial and Federal laws conflict, the Federal laws are paramount (they override the Provincial laws). That's why municipal zoning laws do not apply to Federal lands (such as Granville Island and the Port lands).
The reason that I mentioned negotiations, is because the delay in completing the VCC-Clark Station was supposedly due to prolonged negotiations with BNSF over the ROW for the station and guideway.

****

The redevelopment of False Creek for high tech, etc. originally required the railyards to be ripped up and demand for the yards at the time was low - so that was likely to happen back then (10 years ago). Apparently there has been increased demand for the yards for rail car storage and they will continue to be in place for a long time.

Relics?

You have absolutely no idea how much those rail lines mean to Vancouver, do you?

Are you serious? The false creek flats are basically a train parking lot. I have yet to see a single truck loading/unloading freight to/from the trains. The only thing useful there is the 2 train stations. If you don't agree, post some facts to prove that it is being used for the benefit of Vancouver and not the railway companies.
In regards to the one east of Canada Place, they should not be loading/unloading trucks and trains there, as most of the cargo goes inland. It should be loaded onto trains dedicated to bringing the cargo to a yard significantly closer to a highway. It should ship the containers that are train bound east to another less densely populated area and construct a rail yard there.

officedweller, I recall the re-development of the area being touted on the news a couple years back (or even a decade ?), but nothing except that small arts campus being opened. It's quite frustrating having something such as a rail yard taking up space in a major city, and I hope they manage to at least get rid of the yard. I am surprised there is no interest in the area to the North of the main train station, which appears to be a grass field now.

Vancouver is a Port city, it's Economic welling being depends on the port which in turn depends on the railways. Those tracks are used for staging and that can not be accomplished out in Langley or Surrey.

The tracks next to Canada place are on Federal land and the city has no say on them, I for one am glad of that as this city is running very low on industrial land, much more so then office space.

officedweller, I recall the re-development of the area being touted on the news a couple years back (or even a decade ?), but nothing except that small arts campus being opened. It's quite frustrating having something such as a rail yard taking up space in a major city, and I hope they manage to at least get rid of the yard. I am surprised there is no interest in the area to the North of the main train station, which appears to be a grass field now.

Yeah, that's primarily a consequence of the high tech crash of 2000 or so. That's why the Tech Park office development (planned for the St. Paul's site) did not proceed. I can't recall the timing of the universities campus donation by Finning, but it could have emerged as a consequence of the unmarketability of the site following the crash.

Interestingly, Broadway Tech Park, in the other high tech zoned area near Grandview Highway area is doing quite well (it is more readily developable and also has better Skytrain connections).

WRT the use of the railyards, storage is a legitimate purpose - PLUS, most of the yards on the south side of Terminal Ave. are owned by BNSF (there may be some remaining CN tracks there too), while the Burrard Inlet yards are owned by either CP or CN (or Kerfoot!), so there really isn't a possibility to combine or optimize usage of the yards. There probably isn't really an alternate location for BNSF to build new yards along its route through Surrey and to the US border (though they are building a siding at Colebrook Road for trains to pass each other).

Also, wrt railyards (and rail corridors) in the hearts of cities, the passenger rail yards in London and Paris and other european cities are just massive and in Vancouver [asthetic] terms, would be "blights" on the city.

Why would BNSF tracks have to be moved or expropriated? Can't SkyTrain go above the existing train tracks in order to get past QLT and on to Finning?

That is what will happen,the M-Line extension won't affect the railyard. I beleive this conversation is about the road that could (should)connect VCC to the Home Depot. I imagine a compromise/solution will be found as the area gains more importance.

You make the Home Depot sound so important. :) It is sort of isolated isn't it? I've been there many times, and the one time I decided to walk there from Broadway turned out to be a real pain in the arse. I had to walk Clark Dr, and then along the Grandview viaduct until I could slide down a grass embankment. Like I said... pain in the arse.

Are you serious? The false creek flats are basically a train parking lot. I have yet to see a single truck loading/unloading freight to/from the trains. The only thing useful there is the 2 train stations. If you don't agree, post some facts to prove that it is being used for the benefit of Vancouver and not the railway companies.
In regards to the one east of Canada Place, they should not be loading/unloading trucks and trains there, as most of the cargo goes inland. It should be loaded onto trains dedicated to bringing the cargo to a yard significantly closer to a highway. It should ship the containers that are train bound east to another less densely populated area and construct a rail yard there.

officedweller, I recall the re-development of the area being touted on the news a couple years back (or even a decade ?), but nothing except that small arts campus being opened. It's quite frustrating having something such as a rail yard taking up space in a major city, and I hope they manage to at least get rid of the yard. I am surprised there is no interest in the area to the North of the main train station, which appears to be a grass field now.

You're assuming those tracks always going to be used for loading/unloading freight rail, but what happens if we develop the area and 50 years later we're desperate to reinstate passenger rail as the dominant form of intercity transportation? It would be similar to ripping out the streetcar tracks in the early 50s, only on a much grander scale.

You're assuming those tracks always going to be used for loading/unloading freight rail, but what happens if we develop the area and 50 years later we're desperate to reinstate passenger rail as the dominant form of intercity transportation? It would be similar to ripping out the streetcar tracks in the early 50s, only on a much grander scale.

Hence the reason I said keep the tracks to the stations...? You are assuming that will happen as well. The main bottleneck is the grandview cut, which can only have 2 tracks max. Having a the few siding at the stations will allow for multiple trains to be loaded. Since there are currently 4 sidings for loading passengers and 4 more can be easily added by getting rid of the parking lot to the north, it will not be an issue at all.
We already have intercity rails of sorts, called the Skytrain. Which is not dependent on obtaining a schedule from 2-3 companies along it's route and sharing it.

The VIA and Cascades trains use the sidings by QLT to reverse into the VIA Station so that they face locomotive first when they head out. If you get rid of the reversing track, either the trains will have to reverse all the way back on their return trips (with the locomotive at the back, backwards), or you would need a roundhouse to turn the locomotives around.

The VIA and Cascades trains use the sidings by QLT to reverse into the VIA Station so that they face locomotive first when they head out. If you get rid of the reversing track, either the trains will have to reverse all the way back on their return trips (with the locomotive at the back, backwards), or you would need a roundhouse to turn the locomotives around.
How does a reverse track work? I don't understand (same question for the West Coast Express Trains)?

I think the WCE trains just run in reverse (not sure what was done when the CP Station hosted transcontinental passenger train service).

This is what I have observed for Pacific Central Station (not sure what the Rocky Mountaineer does - it could do the same reversed left to right) - the red bit would represent the locomotive) note that the blue arrows could be reversed, but I think they use the siding before pulling into PCS rather than after:

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/5637/55270419ih5.png

That's really interesting!

Presumably, if the incoming trains could turn a sharp right (towards Burrard Inlet) and then reverse into the stations from there, the whole teardrop thing might not be needed.

Presumably, if the incoming trains could turn a sharp right (towards Burrard Inlet) and then reverse into the stations from there, the whole teardrop thing might not be needed.

True (probably not a sharp turn either), but that could cause them to block Prior Street. That problem would be eliminated when a planned overpass for Prior Street (over the tracks) is built.

:lol: A train turning sharp right... I could have written that more carefully. But you got my drift: I said 'sharp right' in reference to your diagram, with the train heading to Prior.

And as for the construction of a Prior overpass or underpass... show me the dotted line and I'll sign in a minute!

http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20070116/documents/tt3_rail2.pdf

There are five primary locations where preliminary grade separation concepts will be
explored as shown in the Figure 1. Future detailed planning would need to consider
structure design in relationship to surrounding community context.
Two of these crossings are arterial streets that provide connections across the tracks for
pedestrians, cyclists, goods movement, transit, and other traffic including:
• Powell Street - 32,000 vehicles per day
• Venables Street - 30,000 vehicles per day
One location is an alternate crossing at Malkin to replace Venables/ Prior as an arterial
street. This creates a new street network pattern that diverts existing cross-town vehicular
traffic away from Prior onto a new street to the south that would cross over the Glen Yard
rail tracks and connect to Clark Drive. It is expected that if this location is grade separated
then Venables would be downgraded to a crossing with rail priority or closed entirely. This
proposal would be subject to consultation with the surrounding neighbourhood.

In addition to pedestrian/ cycling facilities that would be incorporated into any new vehicle
overpass, two other crossings focus solely on pedestrian and cyclist movements across the
tracks. These structures would be designed to ensure pedestrian and cycling comfort and
convenience is not negatively impacted. These crossings include:
• Adanac Bikeway- crossing the tracks at Union Street, this is one of the city’s busiest
bike routes
• Central Valley Greenway- will provide a virtually flat, continuous 25 kilometre route
linking key residential, employment and shopping areas, schools and post-secondary
institutions in Vancouver, Burnaby and New Westminster. This crossing would be
located in the vicinity of Great Northern Way.

Great link - grade separaration by 2014 sounds fine to me. I wonder why Hastings isn't one of the candidates though?

I wonder why Hastings isn't one of the candidates though?
Yesterday 08:28 AM

Hastings St, like the Grandview Viaduct (1st Ave/Terminal), is already grade separated. Hastings St passes over the rail line using a bridge.

That explains it. Let the grade separations begin!

The mayor has released the results of the UBC survey on the millenium line extension here:

http://www.thinkmail.ca/showpage.php?u=a2da620&m=11641

Final Results of UBC Transit Line Survey Released
Respondents favour a tunnel, and want the City to help protect businesses & residents along the route during construction

http://www.mayorsamsullivan.ca/images/010-thumb-480x243.png
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/442/12417155xu1.png

We promised to keep our Millennium Line Survey respondents up to date on developments surrounding this project. I'm pleased to announce that the final results are now available of the on-line survey of local residents and businesses regarding the completion of the Millennium Rapid Transit Line to central Broadway and UBC are now released to the public.

I want to thank everyone who took time from their busy schedules to complete the survey and give us their ideas. The public consultation process we have initiated in partnership with the City of Vancouver and Translink will give residents, businesses and community organizations the opportunity to help shape the future of their communities for generations to come.

More than 1850 surveys were completed at www.mayorsamsullivan.ca between November 3, 2007 and January 30, 2008. In January, the Province of British Columbia announced their plan to construct a $2.8 billion UBC Rapid Transit Line as part of their province-wide transit strategy.

More than 87% of our survey respondents say they - or a member of their family - would use a completed Millennium/UBC Line. Of those, 48% would no longer use the existing bus service and 28% would be able to leave their car at home. Other key results include:

- Most feel a tunnel system (37%) under Broadway (34%) is the best technology and route for Millennium/UBC Line. 22% favour an elevated Skytrain, 10.5% support streetcar or light rail and 27% want a combination.
- When asked to choose between the least expensive route and the least disruptive route, respondents choose the least disruptive (35% to 18.5%).
- More than 2/3 of respondents want to see the Millennium Line completed all the way to UBC. Only 26% support a phased project.
- An overwhelming amount of respondents (91%) want the municipal government to be an active participant in the project's formal environmental assessment to protect the interest of businesses & residents.
- More than 82% support the establishment of a Business Improvement Association along Broadway in concert with this project.

In addition to protecting the environment and increasing access to UBC, the survey respondents want to see the UBC Line completed to increase access to connecting transit routes, the Broadway business district and health services around VGH. We will consider these results very carefully as we go forward in the coming weeks.

Most of the survey respondents and their families live in Vancouver, Burnaby/New Westminster or UBC (83%). Their principle transit destination is Vancouver (51%) or UBC (33%). More than 77% travel along the Broadway corridor/Millennium Line now. 59% use the current service daily or several times a week.

Respondents used the 99 B-Line more than any other service (45%). Of those 99 B-line users that responded, 48% say they are "passed up" by buses at least 4 times a week.

On a related note, in January City Council supported a motion opposing "cut and cover" construction along the Broadway corridor to UBC. This motion will ensure commercial, congested and confined rights of way will not be impacted by UBC Line construction, and ensure that the City of Vancouver will be a planning partner in any rapid transit development. We definitely want to avoid a repeat of the experience on Cambie Street during Canada Line construction.

Wow its disgusting how big of a waste this millenium line west extension will be. How about putting it towards making our roads safer and less congested.

^^

Guy's lets just stop responding to these posts. He's just trying to get attention.

Wow its disgusting how big of a waste this millenium line west extension will be. How about putting it towards making our roads safer and less congested.


i guess youve never heard of triple convergence?

heres some reading for ya

http://www.walkablestreets.com/triple.htm

http://www.anthonydowns.com/congestiontostay.htm

i guess youve never heard of triple convergence?

heres some reading for ya

http://www.walkablestreets.com/triple.htm

http://www.anthonydowns.com/congestiontostay.htm

Thats great.

But the bottom line is we need bigger roads. They've been the same size since the 60-70s yet our population is double the size since then. If you honestly believe that our roads don't need to be upgraded and we should pour all our money into alternative modes of transportation than you're either in denial or you're an idiot.

It's at the point where our lack of roads is stunting our economic growth.

ok so lets give over some lanes just for trucks then... if you build extra capacity it will be filled up by commuters

Thats great.

But the bottom line is we need bigger roads. They've been the same size since the 60-70s yet our population is double the size since then. If you honestly believe that our roads don't need to be upgraded and we should pour all our money into alternative modes of transportation than you're either in denial or you're an idiot.

It's at the point where our lack of roads is stunting our economic growth.

You've obviously never been to Europe. Large cities with narrow streets and all prioritize transit over the car with fast, convenient and frequent streetcar systems. I never missed having a car in Europe and I think economically they're doing just fine.

We need livable cities, not congested roads.

Is it bad that one of the only reasons that I come here is to get a laugh from the guy from Richmond? Because in all honesty, it's hysterical!

Is it bad that one of the only reasons that I come here is to get a laugh from the guy from Richmond? Because in all honesty, it's hysterical!

yeah this guy is a joke... i actually think that he might be a regular member playing a joke on us with a second account

Perhaps "northwest2k" should be forcefully renamed to "Devil's Advocate." :nuts:

if they changed his name he wouldnt have a very easy time logging in :)

yeah this guy is a joke... i actually think that he might be a regular member playing a joke on us with a second account

Unfortunately, he isn't....you'll find him as a member of Canucks forums.

Unfortunately, he isn't....you'll find him as a member of Canucks forums.

yeah this guy is a joke... i actually think that he might be a regular member playing a joke on us with a second account

DID YOU KNOW I THOUGHT IT WAS MR.X CREATING ANOTHER THAT ACCOUNT LOL

Jokes... but I did think someone was creating another account =P

*snaps*

Unfortunately, he isn't....you'll find him as a member of Canucks forums.

oh i see you guys have a history together...

at least he doesnt know about, well you know.

oh i see you guys have a history together...

at least he doesnt know about, well you know.

lol, well actually we don't....i googled his username, and there he was at Canucks forums.


With regards to the other thing, god forbid....

lol, well actually we don't....i googled his username, and there he was at Canucks forums.

Good work, nitr...erm...mr.x.

Good work, nitr...erm...mr.x.

lol, well i've never ever met nw2k at Canucks forums....which btw, is full of idiots and bigots.

im sure he fits right in then.

so i was having an interesting conversation with an ex city of vancouver planner and he was explaining to me why it would be a good idea to run the ubc line as an at grade street car. he actually made some really good points and now im a bit conflicted over this.

streetcar: use of the road space reduces any additional car capacity created by taking the B lines off the road, and then some. transit is more accessible and increases peoples ability to make local trips. increases congestion for car traffic making driving a less attractive option ahile the street car/light rail zooms on by.

skytrain: really fast and no transfer. could result in triple convergence and as a "subway" will have less of a visual presence. out of sight out of mind

The best of both worlds. One can dream right? I think the streetcar is the most attractive way to get people out of cars but it'd basically be a bus on rails running at city speeds following traffic rules so we need a fast regional system as well.

Before I die I want to see a web of streetcars, metros, and commuter trains all over the Lower Mainland. 60 years Translink you can do it!

I think Broadway needs both Skytain and a streetcar system to serve the area properly. Skytain to speedily and efficiently move commuters from outlying areas, and a streetcar to serve the community. Right now the trolleys and buses along Broadway are trying to serve two masters; commuters and local transit users.

I hope I am not 80 years old before I see that web of streetcars, Skytrain and commuter rail. The area needs these services now, not forty years from now.

im sure he fits right in then.

so i was having an interesting conversation with an ex city of vancouver planner and he was explaining to me why it would be a good idea to run the ubc line as an at grade street car. he actually made some really good points and now im a bit conflicted over this.

streetcar: use of the road space reduces any additional car capacity created by taking the B lines off the road, and then some. transit is more accessible and increases peoples ability to make local trips. increases congestion for car traffic making driving a less attractive option ahile the street car/light rail zooms on by.

skytrain: really fast and no transfer. could result in triple convergence and as a "subway" will have less of a visual presence. out of sight out of mind

I'm still for an underground SkyTrain....with streetcar, it'll take you probably about 30 mins to get to Broadway Station. And with SkyTrain, about 15-minutes. People want to go and move, they don't want to stop everywhere....I personally hate how many of our bus routes stop every 2-blocks - it's ridiculous, and it takes forever to get to where you wanna go. Speed is a huge factor for ridership and to get people off the roads, and it's the same argument for why the Evergreen Line is now SkyTrain instead of LRT.

You would get a whole lot more ridership with SkyTrain than with streetcar.

If that guy wants local service, there's the trolley bus on Broadway/10th Avenue. When SkyTrain is extended to UBC, they could run an articulated trolley every 10-minutes or so.

When I went to University in TO, I'd always find a place to rent near the subway - not near the streetcar. I always hated the jerky starts and stops on the streetcar - and it was every block.
But that said, a streetcar would fit with the west Broadway neighbourhood - it just wouldn't provide much of an improvement over the 99 B-Line for speed.

Streetcar for broadway yes, LRT for broadway no, SkyTrain for Broadway (or 10th) even better =)

Probably closer to 50 minutes for the streetcar since it'd be doing local service. The 99 can take as much as 40-45 minutes during rush hour, compared to the 84's 30 minutes flat. I think realistically the streetcar only has to service Granville to UBC and possibly to downtown since it would really fit the character of the neighbourhood.

Unless it has its own right of way like some of TO's streetcars!

with its own ROW and traffic light priority it wouldnt be too bad, the skytrain would still be faster. mabey they should have skytrain down broadway and then a streetcar on 4th from downtown to the alma skytrain station

with its own ROW and traffic light priority it wouldnt be too bad, the skytrain would still be faster. mabey they should have skytrain down broadway and then a streetcar on 4th from downtown to the alma skytrain station

That would be great actually and it would hit many local attractions such as the beach and the Mariner's museum.

Or it can then follow down Fir and use those unused tracks right now and eventually go down Arbutus Street (reaching Arbutus Station). But then you won't be able to reach those attractions.

I'm not really convinced streetcars down busy streets like 4th or Broadway would improve things a whole lot. If we wanted to hit the interesting places for tourists, perhaps Cornwall St. (rather than 4th) would make more sense. If we want more of a commuter type line, with more speed, then I think you should have a separate ROW or partial one at least. The Millenium Line extension would serve that need. Also, regarding the Arbutus corridor... I think that should be thought of as a pre-metro route, with Skytrain type capacity decades down the road. Perhaps put in a few small tunnels off the bat, to bypass some of the busy streets.

^^I wouldn't think we need to go as far as ALRT (SkyTrain-type) technology. LRT would be enough.

For what, Arbutus? Of course LRT/streetcar now, but years later when we need to, upgrade to ALRT. Hense, "pre-metro" or maybe I should say pre-skytrain :).

I think the entire Millenium Line {and RAV for that matter} should have been LRT with tunnelled sections but seeing the MLine is already SkyTrain they should continue it as SkyTrain.......people hate transfers.
I do, however, not agree with SkyTrain to UBC but rather Alma/Dundar and then BLine. The section from Alms to UBC is a fast moving one with relativley few stops.
The money saved should go towards extending the Expo/Mill line east to Kootenay Loop.
It gets FAR higher traffic volume and is much slower than the current 99BLine.
The current area west of Alma only has 2 buses on ity and still moves fast while the Hastings to Kootenay Loop route has 6 regular buses on itall day which does not include express buses. It is slow due to heavy conjestion and would get far higher ridership than a SkyTrain west of Alma. It is also an area that has room for lots of densification both residentail and commerical wheras Broadway west of Alma doesn't.

The idea of extending it west of Alma to UBC does not make financial or transit sense but is pure politics.

The idea of extending it west of Alma to UBC does not make financial or transit sense but is pure politics.

i totally agree with you... but its just for ubc students and thus they should pay for the extra costs.... like how the airport is paying for their chunk

For sure. I think going all the way to Alma and not finishing the last leg to UBC will create another mob of people waiting for buses there, like at Broadway/Commercial. The main point of extending the line in the first place, is for people going to UBC. It'd be like taking a trip to Paris, and the plane drops you off in London.

I think the M-Line completion project will go all the way to UBC in one go, because if it does not the public, and certainly the media, will form the opinion that fiscal and transportation sanity is being forefitted to protect the always-sensitive West Side/Point Grey crowd and because of it at some later date billions more will be required to finish the job properly.

I see two equally likely scenarios for the execution project.

The first is a mixed bored/cut and cover tunnel. I think the Cambie Street merchants will be invoked to justify a bored tunnel from UBC to Alma and engineering necessity will be cited for the bored tunnel component from VCC-Clarke to Cambie. The rest will likely be cut and cover along 10th. The Province and Translink will endure a severe lashing from 10th ave homeowners and cycling advocates but they will hold firm and say we cannot afford to bore the whole thing and all residents are still able to access their homes via the lanes.

Having said all of that I do think that an all-bored tunnel may also be a likely scenario and the approximately $3 billion budget, not including trains, would be enough to do it. Remember there would not be any bridges to build, nor the expense of operating a precast yard for all the custom elevated guideway segments. If a foreign tunneling contractor was used again then the labour costs for the majority of the project would be below local rates.

Either a pair of TBMs would dig side by side from the False Creek Flats and race each other west to UBC or a single very large bore TBM would be used to create a tunnel similar to the one in Torino.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8b/Metro_Turin_Italy_Tunnel.JPG/800px-Metro_Turin_Italy_Tunnel.JPG
Source (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Metro_Turin_Italy_Tunnel.JPG)

^ Wrong.
The whole point of the MLine ext is to serve the very busy Broadway corridor with RAV, CityHall, VGH, and all the offices, stores, and huge population along its corridor.
The line is NOT being built just for UBC.
Its not that I think going to UBC is a bad thing but rather there are other corridors that are far heavier bus usage routes with Hastings being at the top of the list.
You have just so many dollars so make the most of them and that is not what is taking place on extending the MLine west of Alma.

A good point was made about having it extended to the UBC grounds and then having UBC pick up the tab for all areas covered by UBC.

For sure. I think going all the way to Alma and not finishing the last leg to UBC will create another mob of people waiting for buses there, like at Broadway/Commercial. The main point of extending the line in the first place, is for people going to UBC. It'd be like taking a trip to Paris, and the plane drops you off in London.

haha, great analogy! I complete agree with you! It doesn't make sense to not go all the way to UBC. If you're going to build it, you might as well build it right and build the entire route.

From Alma to UBC, it's about 4.5-kms with 2 stations at West Point Grey Village and UBC. That's about $600 million worth of tunnel boring and station construction, which is only a fraction of the entire $2.8-billion cost to build the proposed extension. You may as well go all the way, for long-term sakes.




Having said all of that I do think that an all-bored tunnel may also be a likely scenario and the approximately $3 billion budget, not including trains, would be enough to do it.Either a pair of TBMs would dig side by side from the False Creek Flats and race each other west to UBC or a single very large bore TBM would be used to create a tunnel similar to the one in Torino.

According to the $14-billion transit plan, I think trains are a different budget. It says that they will spend $1-billion on new train cars.

I'm pretty sure they'll go for boring all the way after all the backlash both the city and the province got for cut and cover, even if it's being done on 10th Avenue.



A good point was made about having it extended to the UBC grounds and then having UBC pick up the tab for all areas covered by UBC.

You'd basically bankrupt UBC...they are a university, it's not their responsibility.

ssiguy2, I agree with all of your points but transportation and landuse policy are explicitly political decisions and the idea of the line frankly matters more than I think you are giving it credit. Granville, Burrard, Arbutus, or, hell, even Macdonald, would all be perfectly rational locations for the M-Line extension terminus. From there B-Line service would be more than adequate. However the political dimension, as I see it, is not about how the dollars can be made to stretch as far as possible, but rather it is about connecting major, widely understood transportation destinations and doing it on the cheap and in a way that does not constitute political suicide. I think the in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound mindset of megaprojects has already taken hold and the government is cognizant that people can read and map and will ask why the brand new M-Line extension doesn't go all the way to UBC [like it should].

Lastly, I think making UBC pay for its share is ridiculous. It isn't an educational institution's job to provide transportation capital. The public would understand that at the end of the day it is their money being spent, whether it comes from UBC, the Province or Translink but the former has more important things to spend its money on and no room in their budgets for digging tunnels. Either UBC would have to dip into its endowment, which won't happen, or it would have to do a capital campaign which would raise more than a few eyebrows among alumni donors who would rightly question why they have to pay for it. Lastly, the airport authority is flush with money and can wring improvement fees out of travelers. UBC would have to wring students dry for years to make up for the university's share.

If anything I am preparing myself for a Docklands Light Railway-style P3 for the M-Line extension and possibly the Evergreen Line too. We'll have a better idea about the latter fairly soon.

Mr.x2 is correct, the new SkyTrain rolling stock has its own budget item in the Province's transit plan and that leads me to believe that the $2.8 billion for the M-Line completion would be wholly for the system itself.

Both UBC and SFU are are more interested in profits from land development and sales rather than providing what they are mandated to do. I say make them use whatever they earn extra to pay for infrastructure. Heck, SFU hasn't paved the main road to there for decades...

Once you ride the 99 B-Line or any bus out of UBC, you'll know that there is a demand for SkyTrain.

And YVR wasn't forced to pay for their share, rather, they wanted a job done properly.

all the way to UBC is the way to go. the price of gas could more than double before this gets built and we need to have the infrastructure in place to deal with additional demand and provide better options for people.

I beleive they should have UBC chip in (at least a token payment), to say it would be bankrupt the university is absurb, they have one of if not the largest endownment funds in the country.

UBC could pitch in for the cost to build their station, but i certainly don't think they should pay for the entire extension.

It makes sense that the trains would not be part of the extension budget (whether Evergreen, M-Line or Surrey extension) because the extension would have to be a design, build, finance and maintain contract for the P3 - i.e. no "operate" component. Trains are part of the operational aspect - so the tunnel contractor would not be responsible for them.

I could see it as one big bore - if for no other reason than timing issues rather than two passes with one TBM.
As a side note, one big bore may provide opportunities for more spacious stations with mezzanines like the Broadway City Hall design. There could still be ramps from the street to the mezzanine (eliminating one set of escalators/elevators) but there would still have to be escalators and elevators from the mezzanines to the platforms.

It would certainly make sense to ask UBC to pay for a station - I don't know what the organizational structure is - but funding could come from the UBC Properties Trust - i.e. the arm that is developing the condos and other real estate bits other there - obviously not from UBC's educational budgets.

in the news today, it appears that the Musqueam Band will be given the UBC golf course and parts of the pacific spirit park.

i wonder how the band will react with a skytrain running through (or close by) their new land.

one more thing,
every once and a while i have to go to UBC and i am amazed how much it has changed and grown over the years.

i have also noticed that parking is getting harder and more expensive! soon students will be forced to take transit.

That's been their plan to force students onto transit - U-Pass is part of it.

I agree that getting UBC to build all their SkyTrain ext thru their lands is probably not realistic but they should be paying for their station.
As I said, going to UBC is not a bad thing but transit has priorities and after say Alma where all North/South routes end, Hastings should get priority one.

Facts are facts.........after Alma , Hasting is a far far busier route than the Bline and #9. There is no comparison. That of course would rrequire tunneling EAST of Main.........can't have that. Only the residents of our fine, elitist city who live WEST of Main get a tunnel. The poor slobs who don't have to have the noise and ugly view of SkyTrain.

Even if you didn't build all the way to UBC and stopped at Alma, the money saved would be far from enough to do anything spectacular or effective for Hastings. Nothing is being planned in the long-term for Hastings....for the time being, starting late this year, they'll have the new B-Line service. We'll look at Hastings after 2020....and it's not like the provincial government would spend that money elsewhere if it's not all the way to UBC.

Build it all the way to UBC today so we won't have to come back in 20 years and re-think about an extension to the campus.

UBC should definitely pay for their own station, but to suggest that they should pay for the entire route from Alma is absurd.

I think rapid transit on hastings will be slowly phased in. Like Mr. X said, there will be a b-line by the end of this year (actually I think September) [95 B-Line], and then a RapidBus before 2015. After that, who knows what will happen. A LRT/StreetCar, perhaps a SkyTrain, who knows? =)

I think rapid transit on hastings will be slowly phased in.

Precisely....afterall, didn't the Millennium Line start out as the B-Line? The Canada Line as the 98 B-Line? The Evergreen Line as the 97 B-Line?

And now, Broadway West-UBC 98 B-Line?

That is/was also the plan for Surrey as well.

Hey, I went to wikipedia {which I admit is not 100% reliable} and it said that the new station extention will be able to accomodate 8 MK1 cars but not the equivalent capacity in MK11 cars.
It stated that 8 MK1s can be fitted in but not 3 MK11 cars as it the equivalent of 9 MK1 cars.
In other words it said it could put 4 more MK1 cars on the EXPO Line but no more than the current number of MK11 cars {2} as it would result in overhang at each end making bordering impossible and unsafe.
What's going on? Is my info wrong or is there a 3rd type of SkyTrain coming on line that could be an articulated car but not the full 36metres of the current MK11s and maybe just 30metres or something?

Hey, I went to wikipedia {which I admit is not 100% reliable} and it said that the new station extention will be able to accomodate 8 MK1 cars but not the equivalent capacity in MK11 cars.
It stated that 8 MK1s can be fitted in but not 3 MK11 cars as it the equivalent of 9 MK1 cars.
In other words it said it could put 4 more MK1 cars on the EXPO Line but no more than the current number of MK11 cars {2} as it would result in overhang at each end making bordering impossible and unsafe.
What's going on? Is my info wrong or is there a 3rd type of SkyTrain coming on line that could be an articulated car but not the full 36metres of the current MK11s and maybe just 30metres or something?

Existing train lengths:

Mark I train (4-car train), 12-metres per car; 48-metre trains:
(|||||||||||-||||||||||||-||||||||||||-|||||||||||)

Mark II train (2-car train), 18-metres per car; 36-metre trains:
(|||||||||||||||||-|||||||||||||||||)

Mark II train (4-car train), 18-metres per car; 72-metre trains:
(|||||||||||||||||-|||||||||||||||||)-(|||||||||||||||||-|||||||||||||||||)

Existing platform length (80-metres):
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||



Future train lengths after platform expansion:

Mark I train (8-car train), 12-metres per car; 96-metres
(|||||||||||-||||||||||||-||||||||||||-||||||||||||-||||||||||||-||||||||||||-||||||||||||-|||||||||||)

Mark II train (6-car train), 18-metres per car; 108-metres
(|||||||||||||||||-|||||||||||||||||)-(|||||||||||||||||-|||||||||||||||||)-(|||||||||||||||||-|||||||||||||||||)

Future platform length (approx. 110-metres)
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

To clarify ssiguy2, please remember that 3 car Mark II is not the same as 3 trainset Mark II.

Current platforms of both the E-Line and M-Line are 80m (with the exception of a few stations). They fit a maximum 6 car Mark I train (12m x 6 = 72m) [although they usually run 4 cars] and 4 car Mark II train (18m x 4 = 72m).

With platform expansions (according to the provincial government), we can see a platform length of 108m.

I understand that the wikipedia article is really confusing... I shall change that right now

^ Thank you, that does help clarify the situation

lets not get started with the "c" cars.... btw nice explanation... now only i could translate this on to an paper for my latest paper

I know that Translink is receiving 34 MK11 cars next year. By that do they mean
34 x 36 metre trains or 34 x 18 metres trains?

I know that Translink is receiving 34 MK11 cars next year. By that do they mean
34 x 36 metre trains or 34 x 18 metres trains?

34 x 18-metre CARS, not trains.

And actually, it's an order of 48. Translink approved an additional order of 14 cars last year and it will also arrive in 2009 with the first batch.

To me it seems stupid. You don't call an articulated bus and bus and a half. Its not like you can actually separate the two.
I don't know of any system in the world that call cars that just longer or articulated more than one car.
one MK11 is the same as saying 3 MK1 cars.

Anyway, I hope that is going to result in 6 car trains on all trains because right now the SkyTrain trains are amongst the smallest in the world only to be out done by the near completion of the RAT line..........Richmond/Airport Tonka toy

To me it seems stupid. You don't call an articulated bus and bus and a half. Its not like you can actually separate the two.
I don't know of any system in the world that call cars that just longer or articulated more than one car.
one MK11 is the same as saying 3 MK1 cars.

Anyway, I hope that is going to result in 6 car trains on all trains because right now the SkyTrain trains are amongst the smallest in the world only to be out done by the near completion of the RAT line..........Richmond/Airport Tonka toy

Why is it so hard for you to grasp such a simple tonka toy concept?

Yes, you don't call an articulated bus a bus and a half....because buses work differently. It's a frickin bus. Trains are completely different, like apples and oranges, so I have no idea why you're making the comparison.

The Mark II's are cars, not trains, because they are simply multiple units regardless of whether or not they are articulated or can be detached.

With your logic, you might as well call a 180-metre long subway train one car because it can't be detached and because it is articulated.


Similar to the Mark II's we have:

London Docklands Light Railway runs 4-CAR TRAINS
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/156/376447847_1cde57d98a_o.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/35/72442220_48bda8eab7.jpg




Kuala Lumpur Airport Express runs 4-CAR TRAINS
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2331/2052616342_47e5758e11_b.jpg

And remember at any time they can order C-Cars and turn the 2-car articulated MK-II units into 3-car articulated MK-II units.

Good lord! This discussion is like, how you say... deja vu.

Doesn't work with buses sorry. Buses are only determined by length and perhaps, single, articulation, double articulation.

A bunch of train-cars join together becomes a train.

Think of it this way, without the articulation joints, the articulated bus cannot stand whereas on a train, if there are no articulation joints, the can still stand properly.

Good lord! This discussion is like, how you say... deja vu.

it's almost like trying to explain 2+2 to an adult.....a hundred times.

Anyway, i hope all trains will be 6 car trains within the year with this new order arriving in.. The other day I had the misfortune of taking the SkyTrain at King George and the little MK11 was full at Surrey Central.

If my math is correct, the new order for 48 Mark II cars (24 sets) will only allow 27 4-car Mark II trains (doubling up the 3 2-car sets left which would take the 4-car sets from 24 - 27 since the total of Mark II cars will be 108, if they had ordered 60 Mark II cars instead of 48, then we could have 30 4 car Mark II trains instead of 27. Though would those extra 3 4-car Mark II trains help?Maybe when the Expo Line extension or UBC extension happens (or even Evergreen line) they will order 108 C cars to make 60 4 car Mark II trains allowing someone to walk from end to end of the 4-car train. Maybe we should start lobbing Translink, etc to get this done. Though, would it actually improve crowded trains?

If my math is correct, the new order for 48 Mark II cars (24 sets) will only allow 27 4-car Mark II trains (doubling up the 3 2-car sets left which would take the 4-car sets from 24 - 27 since the total of Mark II cars will be 108, if they had ordered 60 Mark II cars instead of 48, then we could have 30 4 car Mark II trains instead of 27. Though would those extra 3 4-car Mark II trains help?Maybe when the Expo Line extension or UBC extension happens (or even Evergreen line) they will order 108 C cars to make 60 4 car Mark II trains allowing someone to walk from end to end of the 4-car train. Maybe we should start lobbing Translink, etc to get this done. Though, would it actually improve crowded trains?

Well, the 2020 provincial transit plan calls for $1-billion worth of SkyTrain cars to be purchased....that's about 300 cars or 250 articulated units (two-car trains), and this is for the increase in ridership on the existing lines and for the new ridership on the UBC extension, Evergreen Line, and Surrey extension.

Having C-cars, articulation between cars, would make a huge difference. It would probably increase the train capacity by 20%, given that a lot of space is wasted with the car heads. Why 20%? Well, these articulation areas would be solely standing designated. Hopefully, we do get C-cars.

^ C cars??

I think if they cannot double capcaity on all the trains they will double the capacity of the Expo Surrey bound trains as it has a higher ridership than the MLine.

Are there any plans to retire the Mark I cars? They are very small and uncomfortable. What is their design life?

^ C cars??

C-cars are the middle cars in this picture, that make the train entirely articulated:
http://www.bombardier.com/en/1_0/ml/5615/2_KLext-LR.jpg
These are Bombardier Mark II cars in Kuala Lumpur. They recently ordered a bunch.



Are there any plans to retire the Mark I cars? They are very small and uncomfortable. What is their design life?

I believe their design life is about 25 years, and I think I heard somewhere that Translink is planning to refurbish the Mark I cars so that they'll last for 20 more years.

^Beijing's Airport Line also uses 4-car Mark II trains:



http://www.filenanny.com/files/44f7b9c9f14e0/ap18.jpg
4 Car MK II at OMC - Credits to OurMetro.org & UD2 at SCC

http://www.filenanny.com/files/44f7b9c9f14e0/ap10.jpg
Interiors of the Beijing Airport Express - Credits to OurMetro.org & UD2 at SCC

http://www.filenanny.com/files/44f7b9c9f14e0/ap15.jpg
Exteriors of the Beijing Airport Express - Credits to OurMetro.org & UD2 at SCC

http://www.filenanny.com/files/44f7b9c9f14e0/ap9.jpg
Exteriors of the Beijing Airport Express - Credits to OurMetro.org & UD2 at SCC

Flat screen TV's for Airport Express??? Gotta love cheap Chinese labour.

Trains have around a 50 year life span assuming a mid life refurbishing. I want the old Mark-I's to keep on running as long as possible, I might cry when they go out of service. :(

Trains have around a 50 year life span assuming a mid life refurbishing. I want the old Mark-I's to keep on running as long as possible, I might cry when they go out of service. :(

awww... well you are lucky. I think TransLink is still keeping the old MK Is. They have done so for one MK I car (well it was for testing purposes to see the public reaction):

Edit: I can't find the image sorry. But basically it's white/light gray walls and doors with blue seats, very similar to the Canada Line look. Damn where did I put it!!!

You mean cars 147-148? I love it! Just looks so much cleaner for what seems like just a minor makeover and the seats are surprisingly comfy. I wonder why they started on 147-148, those cars are less than 15 years old.

You mean cars 147-148? I love it! Just looks so much cleaner for what seems like just a minor makeover and the seats are surprisingly comfy. I wonder why they started on 147-148, those cars are less than 15 years old.

wow you remember the car #s too... ^_^ maybe the cars were really damaged by vandals - you know, those who love to slash the leather of the MK I seats, take their sharpie out and draw in the red panels...

I could see Translink selling them to the TTC. It has the short SRT which is SkYtrain and they are extending by about 5km but their track can't accomodate the MK11 so I could sere Translink selling some of their MK1 to Toronto and buying more MK11 ot Rotem cars.

Minister hints at northwest route
Formal announcement expected at April 18 chamber event

Leneen Robb, Coquitlam NOW
Published: Friday, March 21, 2008

Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon is expected to announce his route choice for the Evergreen Line at a Tri-Cities Chamber of Commerce luncheon on April 18, but local politicians believe he's already chosen the northwest route through Port Moody.

Falcon spoke at an Urban Development Institute (UDI) luncheon last Friday, and Coquitlam Mayor Maxine Wilson was there.

"He basically said, 'I announced the technology, gave the northeast a choice of two routes and stated my preference as the northwest route and now that the municipalities have all reached consensus, that should be the route, we should be able to move ahead quickly,'" Wilson said of the minister's comments.

Falcon did not respond to a request for an interview, but Port Moody Coun. Diana Dilworth, who was also at the luncheon, said she interpreted his comments the same way Wilson did.

"I can't remember the exact words, but it very much was of the concept, 'Well, now it appears that we have consensus on the northern alignment from the Tri-Cities, we can just get on with it,'" Dilworth said.

"It was something like that, and I was sitting at the table with a number of other politicians and we're sort of like, 'Was that an announcement or was that not an announcement?'"

Both Dilworth and Wilson expect Falcon to make a formal announcement at the chamber luncheon.

"We're just anxiously awaiting the go-ahead," Wilson said.

Maureen Enser is executive director of the Pacific region branch of the UDI, a Vancouver-based non-profit association of the development industry with 400 corporate members.

She drew a similar conclusion from Falcon's comments.

"I think what he said was that response so far has been that the (northwest) line was the one that seemed most popular and that, based on that, whatever seems to work, be the most popular, is where the government would go," she said.

As a Tri-Cities resident, Enser is aware of the importance of route choice for this area, and said she was surprised that the Vancouver broadcast and print media that usually cover UDI events did not attend Falcon's talk.

"I was a bit baffled, because normally we would have people there, especially in speaking to something like this."

A description of the April 18 luncheon on the Tri-Cities Chamber of Commerce website states that the Evergreen Line "is moving from idea to reality," and invites local business people to attend for an update from Falcon.

The other route choice Falcon gave municipalities as part of his 45-day consultation period, which ended Monday, was a southeastern route that would have passed by Riverview Hospital. That route ignited controversy as soon as it was announced, with environmentalists saying it would lead to development of the green space left on the Riverview lands.

wow you remember the car #s too... ^_^ maybe the cars were really damaged by vandals - you know, those who love to slash the leather of the MK I seats, take their sharpie out and draw in the red panels...

Haha yah I'm a geek I know.

I'm looking through transit-vancouver forum in groups.yahoo.com it seems that something happened with those two cars, 148 getting the blunt of the damage but 147 also getting some damage as well.

i think I remember this story, there was a collision of some sort, two cars being manually controlled derailed at a switch by an inexperienced operator. 148 had a bit of body and mechanical damage so they were completely repairing that while its sibling the 147 just got a minor fix up and interior upgrade and waited beside the former Bombardier factory (so that's what it was.)

OH YES I REMEMBER! I was on the train before that train! And I was like wow thank god I wasn't involved in that mess... all thanks to the bus arriving earlier than normal ^_^

I'm not surprised that it was the NW route as Port Moody has been promissed this forever.
I have mixed feelings. It would be slightly faster than NE but it would serve some of PoCo and we have the ability to make an easy hookup for a SkyTrain or more probably an LRT to Guilford.

i remember sitting in one of the trains and saying wow... this train looks awesome... it looked bigger and brighter... though i wish we could have the tvs.... or at the very least at all of the stations displaying the location of the next trains would be cool

This is my hoped for (and expected) configuration for the UBC extension of the M-line:

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/4017/milleniumlinewest1qh6.jpg

I really should have put a North arrow, but bear with me on this little tour... starting with the last stops on the existing intersection of the Expo and existing Millenium line:
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/3909/broadwaycommercialyk7.jpg

Prince Edward Street station would probably be built long after the line is complete as there is nothing there right now, but will soon become part of a high-density technology zone in the False creek flats. I didn't draw columns, but from VCC-clark it continues as elevated guideway and drops to grade just before Prince Edward station and cuts into the hillside as cut-and-cover tunnel.
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/1526/princeedwardstationav5.jpg

Kingsway Station will have entrances off of 3 arteries: Main, Kingsway and Broadway. The tunnel will arrive at the station in a stacked configuration underneath 10th Ave.
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/5771/kingswayaf1.jpg

The expected interchange with the Canada Line:
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/1879/broadwaycambieuf0.jpg

The stacked cut-and-cover configuration continues under 10th all the way to Alma, before switching to bored tunnel to handle the typography and to save the commercial strip around Sasamat.
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/1048/oaksasamatau3.jpg

Right after Blanca, the tunnel switches to side by side configuration and opens up to a trench down the middle of University Blvd.
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/6347/sasamateu6.jpg

The track becomes elevated once more, giving the most scenic views from any urban mass transit system in the world. Part of the rationalle is to allow for some chance of restoring a continuity between ecosystems north and south of University blvd... but I don't know about how sound pollution factors into it.
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/4991/westbrookza1.jpg

Before reaching the point grey campus and neighbourhood the track drops into a trench and runs down the median of University blvd, with stations just before westbrook mall and just after main mall.
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9978/ubcvm9.jpg
Hope you enjoyed the ride =)

Jesus Christ that looked amazing... I was actually going to do something like this but nothing that amazing.

Prince Edward STN is most likely an at-grade station before the turn. There were Great Northern Way development plans and many of the options show this.

Not much I can really say there.....it was perfect, simply orgasmic. Well actually, there's one thing I'm not too sure of: trenches west of Blanca.

Well done!!!


edit: probably not enough space for a stacked station at Cambie, the Canada Line tunnel is still shallow there.

Pretty...good enough to start building...let start tomorrow. Based on the CL experience, I assume the tunnel construction would be about 4 years, with an extra year for stations. :)

A couple of observations though. The first picture does not have an Alma station. I assume there would be one as an entrence / exit pit would be required to be dug for the 10th Avenue village TBM anyway.

Also, I understand that 10th is a lot of people's choice as it potentially cheapens station construction, as well as avoids Water?? / Sewer?? mains down 8th and of course the business impact on Broadway. Something that could slow contruction is there are I believe 3 TELUS Offices (around Kingsway, Arbutus, and Blanca) on 10th and as a result, I think 10th has significant communications infastructure under it for the entire run from Kingsway to UBC.

The plan looks good - but as others have mentioned, I don't agree with a trench on University Blvd.

In addition, the tunnel portal doesn't need to be in the median of University Blvd - it could be on some golf course land and the line could route around to the University's projects on the south part of campus (either before or after a main station near Wesbrook Mall).

WRT Cambie Station, although the knockout panel is on the west end of the mezzanine, the station can be located under the City owned block to the east (i.e. between Yukon and Cambie) and tied into the Canada Line station from the east. You can have a big deep excavation on that site and "mine" under the Canada Line.

WRT boring versus cut and cover, if the bore is deeper, then station construction costs would be higher for a bored tunnel. Note that InTransitBC was also going to try using a post-tensioned precast segment system for the stacked cut and cover tunnel but given the time constraints, the cast in place method was used because of the advantages of multiple fronts. So if there's no time constraint, maybe a cut and cover tunnel using precast segments could be cheaper than a bored tunnel.

Great work dleung! Simply amazing what you've done here.

Question: what currently occupies the lots for the stations between Arbutus and Sasamt?

Minor quibble: It's Wesbrook Mall, not Westbrook Mall.

Thanks for all the feedback. I'd like to hear what ideas people have for the blanca-ubc section. I went with elevated for the uninhabited park, and trench in UBC mainly cus it's cheap but more sensitive to neighbours than an elevated guideway. I agree maybe a 3rd station should be located somewhere around thunderbird stadium, in which case it means a bored tunnel for the entire UBC section.

For the intersection with Cambie, due to the difference between the grade and slope of the tunnel, I think there's enough room above the Canada line for a regular subway, but not a stacked tunnel. Which is why I put the platform along the parking lot south of city hall to allow for a large, deep station, though i was too lazy to actually model the dip in the tunnel.
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5896/broadway2ej9.jpg

Question: what currently occupies the lots for the stations between Arbutus and Sasamt?

I actually did size the stations entrances according to the parcels on one of the 2 south corners of the relevant intersections and in each case either the SW or SE parcel is occupied by something no one would miss, ie: gas station or a one-storey thrift store type building. At Sasamat, I think we'll have to lose a house though.

Btw dleung I posted ur renderings on SSP.

I actually did size the stations entrances according to the parcels on one of the 2 south corners of the relevant intersections and in each case either the SW or SE parcel is occupied by something no one would miss, ie: gas station or a one-storey thrift store type building. At Sasamat, I think we'll have to lose a house though.
I see, thanks for the info. I took the 99 everyday until recently. If I recall, Arbutus has a Shell station & drycleaning (ex-gas station) thing on the SE corner along with the railroad, Macdonald has a Petro Canada station on the SW corner, and there's a pretty big Chevron station on the SE corner of Alma and Broadway. What's the cross-street for the Sasamat entrance?

Thanks for all the feedback. I'd like to hear what ideas people have for the blanca-ubc section. I went with elevated for the uninhabited park, and trench in UBC mainly cus it's cheap but more sensitive to neighbours than an elevated guideway. I agree maybe a 3rd station should be located somewhere around thunderbird stadium, in which case it means a bored tunnel for the entire UBC section.

I think that one of the main constraints would be vibrations from the trains impacting the Chemistry Building and the Physics Building (and to a lesser extent the biosciences buildings) - that would have to be accounted for in any routing.

Articles regarding UW and the Seattle LRT:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/archives/1999/9903140021.asp
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19990313&slug=2949178

I'm not sure whether an elevated line would have more or less vibration than a trench or underground line.

Anyway you slice it the MLine [and for that matter the ExpoLine ext to 152nd} is a complete a waste of money. The BLine is a busy route but far less so after Alma. The BLine with 3-4 minute frequency would save a cool billion and another $500 mil for the Expo Line ext. The BLine after Alma isn't even close to having the ridership along Hastings, After Alma the BLine is very fast moving unlike Broadway were it is bogged down by traffic and congestion. Put the limited resources where they are needed most which means, by far, Hastings. The Expo should not be extended. For that kind of money they could build a series of LRT SOF.
The west of Alma section would result in only a small increase in the number of riders and ridership levels.
Every area wants rapid transit but that doesn't mean they should get it. Its a matter of priorities. A further Mline past Alma simply does not qualify especially when one considers the amount of money that would go towars other LRT options. That kind of money could build an LRT along the busy 41st corridor from Granville to Joyce/ Hastings/King George/Downtown-Westend/Arbutus/ reopening the Valley rail line from Scott Road to Langley.
The UBC simply doesn't offer the bang for the buck. The MLine to UBC is purely political by Campbell. Funny how every urban planner in the city DOESN'T support the MLine to UBC...........they know a waste of money when they see it knowing that by bringing LRT to more areas of the city is far better way to prevent sprawl then one line west of Alma could ever do. As far as this idea of UBC creating more residential developments that is bunk. When someone is buying a $1mil 2 bedroom condo at the Endowment Lands is not the kind of people who would take transit anyway.
MLine past Alma will do nothing for the region or even city to improve ridership on a percapita basis, will bankrupt {the almost near bankrupt} Translink of operating funds, and will next to nothing for sustainable developement, and emissions reductions.
This is politics 101.
Remember one of the supporters of SkyTrain state is that it encourages high density deveolpment. There is NO where to develope such areas along 10th and even if they could fit one in the Westsiders wouldn't never let it happen

On behalf of every other Vancouverite poster, at both this forum and at SSP, who has explained to you the logic and rationality behind extending the Millennium Line all the way to UBC, I sincerely ask that you shut the fuck up. :)

We've only gone over it five times or more....but hey, it goes in one ear and comes right out the other! You'll never learn...

Every single "point" you've made in this post has already been beaten down with our sticks and proven incorrect on multiple occasions, and I don't intend on re-explaining anything to you nor do I think anyone else should.

Cheers.



P.S. a White Rock resident dictating what Vancouver needs? That's RICH.:lol:

If ssiguy2 were here in 1984, he would be telling us how the Expo Line is a waste of money and they could just run a bus on Kingsway every 30 seconds.

^ LMAO.

Anyway you slice it the MLine [and for that matter the ExpoLine ext to 152nd} is a complete a waste of money.
IMHO, you have a point with Surrey. An LRT Network along King George and 104th make more sense to me in the near term.
The BLine is a busy route but far less so after Alma. The BLine with 3-4 minute frequency would save a cool billion and another $500 mil for the Expo Line ext. The BLine after Alma isn't even close to having the ridership along Hastings, After Alma the BLine is very fast moving unlike Broadway were it is bogged down by traffic and congestion. Put the limited resources where they are needed most which means, by far, Hastings. The Expo should not be extended. For that kind of money they could build a series of LRT SOF.

I would be torn. Hastings is definitely a better corridor, but UBC is a destination unto itself with a large population of transit users.

MLine past Alma will do nothing for the region or even city to improve ridership on a percapita basis, will bankrupt {the almost near bankrupt} Translink of operating funds, and will next to nothing for sustainable developement, and emissions reductions.
This is politics 101.
Remember one of the supporters of SkyTrain state is that it encourages high density deveolpment. There is NO where to develope such areas along 10th and even if they could fit one in the Westsiders wouldn't never let it happen

Lots of truth here. Density can't/won't increase. Students will take the bus anyhow, so ridership won't change much.

Apart from the symbolic gesture of servicing the University, there are better routes.

Personally, I'm torn. It reminds me of White Rock/Surrey. Would it be worth it to run LRT alongside farm-land to get to a metropolis of 85,000 people.

UBC isn't as far away, but unless it's done inexpensively, at grade or elevated (which likely won't happen), I can't see it happening.

Of course, that would be one way to cut costs. Past McDonald, make the only option elevated or at-grade. Point Grey residents will kill the extension within the hour of an announcement.

I wouldn't run SkyTrain past McDonald anyhow.

On behalf of every other Vancouverite poster, at both this forum and at SSP, who has explained to you the logic and rationality behind extending the Millennium Line all the way to UBC, I sincerely ask that you shut the fuck up. :)

We've only gone over it five times or more....but hey, it goes in one ear and comes right out the other! You'll never learn...

Every single "point" you've made in this post has already been beaten down with our sticks and proven incorrect on multiple occasions, and I don't intend on re-explaining anything to you nor do I think anyone else should.

Cheers.

If I EVER hear a comment like "shut the f... up" again whether against me or anyone else consider yourself reported. I will not tolerate profanity nor offensive comments against anyone. If you can't converse in an intelligent and respectful manner then don't.

As for everyone else...........I have never ruled out an extention to UBC but not yet. It will definatly be used but it's a matter of priorities and to Alma will do fine for now. After the MLine to Alma is completed funds should go to where they are need most and which will result in overall higher ridership. Hastings is the obvious first priority for LRT along with Joyce, King George, Fraser Valley LRT. Main Street also has high ridership levels to warrant an LRT. We have to make hard choices on where the limited money can go to result in the highest potential ridership increases and correspondingly emissions reductions.
As for this rail or LRT to White Rock.............I can hardly think of a bigger waste of money. Rapid Bus will do fine from WR to Canada Line & to Newtoon and after that LRT to Surrey Central.

As for everyone else...........I have never ruled out an extention to UBC but not yet. It will definatly be used but it's a matter of priorities and to Alma will do fine for now. After the MLine to Alma is completed funds should go to where they are need most and which will result in overall higher ridership. Hastings is the obvious first priority for LRT along with Joyce, King George, Fraser Valley LRT. Main Street also has high ridership levels to warrant an LRT. We have to make hard choices on where the limited money can go to result in the highest potential ridership increases and correspondingly emissions reductions.

As for this rail or LRT to White Rock.............I can hardly think of a bigger waste of money. Rapid Bus will do fine from WR to Canada Line & to Newtoon and after that LRT to Surrey Central.

I'm not going to even respond to your M-Line comment.

It will be unnecessary for Main Street to have LRT: that's just a duplication of the Canada Line. Is that what you call "efficient use of money?" I don't see the point of having LRT along Joyce: I think you meant 41st Avenue. Either way, the ridership on the 43, which will become RapidBus, is too low for it to have LRT. Fraser Valley LRT would also be a waste of money... We can't just jump straight to LRT without even providing RapdiBus service.

If I EVER hear a comment like "shut the f... up" again whether against me or anyone else consider yourself reported. I will not tolerate profanity nor offensive comments against anyone. If you can't converse in an intelligent and respectful manner then don't.

Oh no, we've all tried the intelligent/respectful post part many times before.:lol: But you haven't done your part at all, considering you've asked the same questions over and over and over again and despite all of us replying to your questions/comments quite politely at first over and over...and over and over again.

It's a real shame that you haven't realized that.

Not to mention, I think I've corrected you at least 10 times on what a Mark II car is.

We are simply tired and to be quite blunt, pissed, of this neverending barrage of the same comments/questions. They're almost carbon copies of your previous posts.

If anything, I should be reporting YOU for trolling.:| And really, it's US that has tolerated YOU [and for far too long]....not the other way around.

BTW, your previous post was ANYTHING BUT intelligent.



As for everyone else...........I have never ruled out an extention to UBC but not yet. It will definatly be used but it's a matter of priorities and to Alma will do fine for now. After the MLine to Alma is completed funds should go to where they are need most and which will result in overall higher ridership. Hastings is the obvious first priority for LRT along with Joyce, King George, Fraser Valley LRT.

Talk about being a broken record. :lol: