PORTUGAL | High Speed Rail [Archive]

sotavento

March 15th, 2008, 05:59 AM

Southern Line is a NEW line linking Lisboa (Capital) with the touristic algarve down south ... It mostly runs on "upgraded" tracks on most of its journey and NEW( lets call them "recent" instead) tracks in some few cases.

The "upgraded" tracks are in fact 100% new track either they were built on the same place of the old track or not.

The Lisboa-Coina-PinhalNovo is an entire NEW line:
- wich was partly built in early 90's (10km single track not electrified) ...
- another large part built in late 90's (20km double track electrified wich included the "tagus" crossing over 25 de abril bridge , and large viaducts) ...
- and a 3rd "new" part (wich includes an almost 1km long tunnel and a 500m viaduct)
- the line is full of restrictions on it's 10km northern side:
º "tagus" crossing is limited to 60 km/h (40km/h for heavier trains)
º a couple of curves limited to only 45 km/h
º the viaducts and stations are not designed to high speeds so limits ranging from 130km/h to 160 km/h are abundant
- the new intermediate section and the original noe electrified section were completely built/rebuilt to HSL standards (speeds above 230km/h were reached in tests with LOCO HAULED rolingstock) :cheers:
- since the train leaves Lisboa and goes in a complete circle before runing south it stops (comercialy) at Pinhal Novo wich a) sits in the middle of a 220km/h zone and b) is faster to acess from central lisbon than Oriente (its a 20 minute bus/car trip or a 40/50 minute train runabound journey.

This line is operated by "Fertagus" (private company) urban/comuter doubledecker trains and by CP (statecompany) long distance and freight trains.

From Pinhal Novo we can eithwer follow directly south to Setubal (the old "Sado line" now upgraded to 200 km/h up to setubal) or continue ahead to Poceirão (the old "South line") where the lines diverge again ... the old "South line" (now Alentejo line) continues to Evora and Beja and the "poceirão-agualva variant" (now a part of the new "south line" turns (at speeds od 220km/h) to the right where it meets the line from setubal.

From Agualva/Aguas de Moura and down south theres a mixture of single track High speed 220km/h , double track high speed 220km/h and single track "unrenovated" ... work still continues on upgrading the old track to HSL ... all "new" HSL is built to 250 km/h mixed traffic usage over there.

The south part of the "new" south line is only at some 110/140 km/h due to the sinuosity of the terrain ... it will be upgraded/replaced in the near future by a new HSL.

The "old" south line while mostly single track was built to allow for 2 tracks in the future ... 150 years and only the 30km in the Lisboa/Barreiro side are double track ... only the 15km P.Novo-Poceirão is up to standards (220km/h) while the rest is either at 140km/h or even at 100 km/h (from Beja to Funcheira) ... 50km of it are electrified (40 in the north and 10km in the south).

From poceirão the "old" south line continued to Vendas Novas (its electrified up to there) and then on to Casa Branca where it diverges in Y , one arm to Evora and the other south to Beja.

C.Branca-Evora will be a part of the NEW direct freight line to the border ... it is already renewed and prepared t oheavy freight and (optionaly) High Speed trains at up to 200/250 km/h.

In Beja a new airport will open this late summer (or before the end of the year) and there are plans to upgrade the line to 200/250 km/h also ... and even in due time to connect with Faro and Sevilla in a new HSL direct alignement.

A new HSL is to be built joining Lisboa to Madrid passing thru Evora and Badajoz ...
A New airport is also to be built south of the tejo (10km north of Poceirão) ....

So they joined both projects and a new cross Tejo railway bridge (4 tracks) will be built to connect Lisboa to the NAL (novo aeroporto de lisboa) , take 20/30 minutes of Lisboa-South trains , prvide more direct connections Lisboa-Setubal and serve as an exit to the HSL to Madrid.

The 180km between the Tejo south bank and the Border at Badajoz are entirely of almost FLAT terrain with nothing of importance to worry about ... a "mixed" freight/passenger HSL with speed of 300 km/h are due to star engeneering works before the summer ends. :cheers:

sotavento

March 15th, 2008, 06:43 AM

Pinhal Novo Station:

Old north exit:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Pinhal_Novo/PNov_045.jpg

Old Station:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Pinhal_Novo/PNov_051.jpg

Old south exit:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Pinhal_Novo/PNov_052.jpg

New north exit:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Pinhal_Novo/Pinhal_Novo_06.jpg
Photo by José Sousa @ railfaneurope.net

New Station:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Pinhal_Novo/Pinhal_Novo_05.jpg
Photo by José Sousa @ railfaneurope.net
^^ Notice the TOWER in the middle of the tracks ... this is what happens when someone wants to IMPOSE something to the local populace ... :lol:

New South exit:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Pinhal_Novo/Pinhal_Novo_04.jpg
Photo by José Sousa @ railfaneurope.net

Poceirão station:

Looking west to Pinhal Novo:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Poceirao/Poceirao_18.jpg

Looking south to Ag. Moura/Funcheira/Algarve:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Poceirao/Poceirao_21.jpg

The station:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Poceirao/Poceirao_09.jpg

Looking East to Evora/Beja:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Poceirao/Poceirao_08.jpg

^^ over there will be a MAJOR freight/container terminal in the near future and the new HSL will pass to the left of it.

Southbound Alfa Pendular speeds up:
http://www.smparreira.com/cfss/Linhas/Sul/Poceirao/PICT0048c.jpg

full tilt passing by Poceirão curve:
http://www.smparreira.com/cfss/Linhas/Sul/Poceirao/PICT0048b.jpg

Something coming fast at us:
http://www.smparreira.com/cfss/Linhas/Sado/Amoreiras_Viaducto/Image6.jpg
^^ Amoreiras viaduct ... some 140km south of lisboa ... 220km/h double track "upgraded" line (actualy the viaduct is a variant)

Trainman Dave

March 15th, 2008, 08:27 PM

Thank you for the photographs in your last post. They are not only impressive but really indicative of the the modern Portugese railway.

I posted a respose to your comments on my opinions on another thread a while ago and I am still reasearching all your comments in post #2.

In post #2 you do not provide any detailed citations for the operating speeds on the various segments which you discus. If you look at my history on SCC you will discover that most of my comments relate claims of high speed operations which are not substantiated.

I don't believe that that you have substantiated the operating speeds which you have quoted

sotavento

March 16th, 2008, 08:09 AM

Treat the topic as "work in progress" ... as I gather information I'll be putting things together and in a more orderly fashion. (even I lost myself when I read it today) :lol:

A funny in the current timetables is that the AP has 50 minutes given for Lisboa(Oriente) to Pinhal Novo while IC have 45 minutes with more intermediate stops.

It takes an Alfa Pendular 1h53 to make the 220km between Pinhal Novo and tunes (only half are run at 220km/h) ... the intercity trains (loco hauled old sorefame coaches limited to 160km/h) run the same route in 2h35/2h4 (with 5 intermediate stops).

sotavento

March 20th, 2008, 03:54 PM

Found some photos of Alfa Pendular trains in norhtern line laying around in imageshack:

Notice: Authors referenced in the pictures (or unknown)

Pendulating on "unrenovated" tracks
http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/8762/cp400059ak2.jpg

Pendulating at high speeds in Northern line:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2391/2278597867_3eb47b94ff_o.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-11/879641/_MG_3229web.jpg

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/6956/cp40006qz0.jpg

Crossing the Tejo Bridge (Almada-Lisboa):
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6956/img1463ks1.jpg
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/5830/img1464ry6.jpg

São João Bridge (Gaia-Porto):
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7107/img0895jd0.jpg

Dinivan

March 20th, 2008, 10:11 PM

Paulo2004

March 21st, 2008, 12:41 AM

elfabyanos

March 21st, 2008, 12:57 AM

^^ who's the manufacturer of these trains? and also, why are HSL in Portugal so complicated? I mean, why not making a straight blue line between Lisbon and Porto instead of this mixture of high-speed rail and conventional rail?

The blue lines on my map are conventional lines, but where the speed is higher, so Lisbon-Porto line is all one type at the moment.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2391/2278597867_3eb47b94ff_o.jpg

I'm really interested in how this section of line was built. I assume this is on an old trackbed? But it looks as though it's got new build reinforced concrete foundation trackbed underneath the ballast. That must have required the whole line shut down for long periods to put that in. The upgrade of the WCML is high quality, but in very few places are they going to the extent of putting in modern foundations underneath replacements of the rest of the trackbed!! That must ride really well.

Joop20

March 21st, 2008, 03:27 PM

The blue lines on my map are conventional lines, but where the speed is higher, so Lisbon-Porto line is all one type at the moment.

I think he meant to ask why there is already a blue line between Lisbon and Porto, and they're also going to construct a red line between both cities. What's the use of having two high speed rail connections between Lisbon and Porto?

sotavento

March 21st, 2008, 04:53 PM

^^ who's the manufacturer of these trains? and also, why are HSL in Portugal so complicated? I mean, why not making a straight blue line between Lisbon and Porto instead of this mixture of high-speed rail and conventional rail?

That is explained because it was not a NEW line being built but simply a line upgrade.

CP in late 80's was tryingto decide wich newer rapid intercity trains should be bought ... (they even considered buying asthom TGV's back then) ... but in the end settled for some 30 "eurosprinter" locomotives and the upgrading of some "sorefame" INOX coaches (to add to the recent adquired corail coaches) for secondary lines ... and the main line would be operated by FIAT pendulino trains wich could be run at higher speeds in the current infraestructure ... so 10 of those were bought in the end.

The trains were "assembled" in Amadora(a railway factury in Portugal owned by ADTranz?/Bombardier wich is now closed) ... they were built by FIAT with Siemens motores/electronics

the original idea was that if pendulino trains could run at higher speeds they could use the current unrenovated route at speeds of 160km/h and save a lot of time ... but the OLD (the line was originaly from 1850's) trackbed was seen as unsuitable to consistent and massive runing of 25ton per axle trains and passenger trains at 140/160km/h ... and if one was "renewing" from scratch it would be better to do a propper job so the plan was changed to a completely renovated line including new trackbed , bridges and rails and even the overhead catenary was exchanged (supporting posts included). :cheers:

When they saw that the simple upgrade was inefective they went even further and began to study the implementation of a major upgrading program wich included new major variants to the existing route and NEW (proposedly built) alignements in large areas.

Lisboa-Porto has one(1 - the northern line) main line and three (3 - oeste , beira alta and vouga NG) secundary lines ... they are currently "painstakingly" upgrading the main route (with some stretches quadrupled outside lisboa) and in the remaining urban areas the quadruplication was postoned because it was decided to separate urban trafic from long haul trafic ... a resume of the current status of "Northern line":

- Great Porto Metropolitan Area has seen a major upgrade to it's urban lines in the form of "metro do porto" wich is a mixture of everything ... light rail veicles wich run on metro tunels inside the city , on old narrow gauge routes outside of it and are expanding to NEW destinations either by underground tunels, street-like-tram or surface-metro lines ... it is already at 70km.
- Porto central station (located at "Campanha") has been renewed and a new terminal facing north was also built (from "passing" 9 platforms it passed to 9 + 6 platforms plus 2 passing lines without platform)
- Porto-Gaia has seen a new bridge (São João Bridge) built in early 90's
- Gaia center has seen a new Center station ("General Torres") wich is underused
- Gaia main station at "Devesas" is a complete wreck this precise instant (they just demolished the main building last weekend) and will be only "slightly" modernized prior to the begining of the HSL infraestructure works.
- Gaia-Espinho is not currently upgraded and is a nice "old looking" suburban line ... with all the constraint it implies ... the quadruplication was droped (at least temporarily) in favour of a NEW alignement for the HSL directly out of Gaia by the interior and direct to coimbra(100km south). :ohno:
- Espinho station is being rebuilt in a tunel under the city ...
- from south of Espinho , passing by Aveiro (another main station) and all the way up to Pampilhosa (main exchange station of lisboa-porto and figueira-medina-hendaye main lines) the line was completely removed and a NEW rail infraestructure built in its place (they actualy DIG 1 or 2 meter underground and started from scratch ... it is mostly at 200/220km/h and heavily used.
- Pampilhosa-coimbra-Alfarelos is not currently upgraded and they are waiting for the HSL final details to renovate that part of the line.
- Coimbra is starting its own "metro mondego" system wich will use parts of some secundary railway routes (linha da Lousa) and will connect with Coimbra main station (wich will be served by the new HSL and renovated acordingly)
- From alfarelos (a hub between northern line , oeste(west) line and suburban/harbour line to figueira) down south the line was completely renovated until entroncamento and it is astonishing to see such speeds as 180<>200km/h achieved in that part of the line ... lots of level crossings were supressed in this area ... there are actualy dozens of bridges with NO road paved in the nearboring miles. (during the renewing works when they cut the regional services for same months straight the replacement buses took almost 3h to complete the service that the train does in less than 30 minutes).
- Entroncamento (main hub of northern line and the line to madrid) is the site of the "future" national railway museum and the main workshops of the portuguese railways (EMEF is currently assembling the new freight LE4700 locomotives to CP there)
- Entroncamento-Santarem is not renewed yet ... half of it will see a new variant (26km) passing inland begin construction work very soon
- Santarem is a nice station near the Tejo but it is TOO near the river and prone to floodings now and then .. .and its a curvy zone underneat the city castle steep hill (wich probably will fall under the river someday) .. .so a new line is being built in the other side of the hill. :lol:
-Santarem-Setil-Azambuja is completely renewed with some new viaducts 1,3km long and major cuttings to correct the alignement and allow speeds of 220km/h ... along with lots and lots of level crossing supressions /the majority of the funding from EU to portugal went precisely to this little ad almost neglected item ... supression of level crossings nationwide).
-Azambuja-VFXira-Alverca-Oriente was suposed to be a four track 200km/h route but the intermediate section Alverca-VFXira is too narrow and too near the Tejo to alow 4 tracks to be instaled in a simple upgrade so they decided to leave it as it was in the time being.
- Oriente station is a new 8 track station built just outside of lisboa in late 90's .. .and has since then became the main station to all long distance trains.
- From oriente the trains run south to Santa Apolonia (The old main station) and to the "cintura line" from where they follow to Sintra and (back up north again by Oeste station) tho the south cross the tejo (by 25 de abril bridge) in their way to alentejo and Algarve.

Until recently the NORTH and SOUTH regions of portugal railway network were almost separated from one another ... an thus it was decided to conect both of them in the region of lisboa ... so in a radical investment program it was decided to UPGRADE the 25 de abril bridge to pass from 2+2 road lanes (with a 5th reversible) to 3+3 and to introduce rail trafic in the lower level (wich was contemplated in the original project) ... it was decided to also make a strenghtening of the bridge at the same time:

This was coincident(? simultaneous) in time with the reestructuring of the national state railways (separate infraestructure and train operation into different companies) and was seen as a good oportunity to test the privatization of rail operations ... this led to the cration of the REFER (state owned infraestructure company) an the private company FERTAGUS to operate the trains on the new route over the tagus bridge.

The crossing departs from "cintura line" near the "Aqueducto das Aguas Livres" and heads by means of large viaducts to the lower level of the 25/4 ... from here it crosses the river and enters into a tunel (half o it was built since the 60's when 25/4 was completed) as soon as it reaches the south bank wich leads to "Pragal" station in the south side ... and from there it follows near A2 (highway) all the way up to Coina.

On the other side in the late 80's and early 90's there was a major Ford/Volkswaggen factory built at Penalva an do it was decided to built a part of the "projected" connection to the 25/4 at that time ... thus the PinhalNovo-Penalva line was built ... it was a single line not electrified but the trackbed was built to acomodate a posterior second line ... in 2000's it was upgraded to double line electrified and the speed was settled at 200km/h.

In the same modernization programme the Penalva-Coina gap was built and it involves a station at Coina (the old line ended in the workshops that service Fertagus trains) and another at Penalva (inside the Autoeuropa autoplant railyard complex) and in between there is a 400m viaduct and a 700m tunel ... its also at 200km/h

Pinhal Novo station has been entirely renewed ... "almost" entirely as the local populace didn't alow the old signal tower to be demolished so it was decided to move it a little bit ... currently it is still in the same place ... just in the middle of the DIRECT 200km/h passing main lines. :lol:

The line from Pinhal Novo to Setubal was also renewed and electrified (it's at 200km/h) and Fertagus services were extended to Setubal by 2004.

From PinhalNovo the "Alentejo" line (the OLD South line) was upgraded up to Poceirão and then down south thru the "variant" (built in late 70's ?) where it joins OLD "Sado Line" (now called south line) at Agualva/Aguas de Moura (its 2 tracks at 220km/h)

From there it enters the new alignement of the south line (also built in the 70's) um to Pinheiro station ... the line was upgraded to 220km/h but remained a single line (the variant was built for 2 track) .. .the old alignement was converted to a local road a long time ago.

From Pinheiro , down to Alcaçer and somewhere in the middle of nowhere (also called pk94) the route follow near the sado river and will be replaced/joined in the near future by a new alignement and a cross sado bridge ... it is being built to be a 250km/h double track line.

From "pk94" to Grandola they built a new track(220 km/h) just at the side of the old one (wich was at 140km/h) and then they REMOVED the old one (how stupid can one be ???)

Grandola is a single line mainline passable at 200km/h with 2 side lines (3 platforms total)

From Grandola to Ermidas they completely forget the old alignement and built a new one with lots of SINGLE LINE viaducts (200km/h) ... old iron bridges can be seen all the way alongside the new alignement concrete viaducts

Ermidas-Alvalade-TorreVã saw a different "demency" than the other parts of the route ... it was renovated as a double line and the speeds are at 220km/h (much more can be achieved there as it is practicaly a straight flat line ... myself recorded 225km/h there) ... a major viaduct (more than 1200m) was buit near Alvalade station.

Torre Vã-funcheira was almost left unrenovated and it's as low as one can get in Soth Line ... 80km/h to conventiona trains ... with the tilting trains hitting some terrific 100km/h using FULL TILT. :lol:

To settle things straight:
Ermidas-funcheira = 50km
Ermidas-T.Vã = 30km of double track at 220km/h "straight"
T.Vã-funcheira = 20km of single track 100km/h "full tilt"
- the original idea was that all long distance trains would pass each other at full speed in the 1st section
- long time history has made it constant that crossings are at Amoreiras (south of Funcheira) or somewhere even down .. .so intercity have to stop "in the bush" to allow the Alfa Pendular to go ahead ...

From there and all the way up to algarve(Tunes) the line was renewed in some places and the speeds of (90/CNV usualy meaning 90 to conventional trains and CNV meaning "look at Convel for speed" gives the fabulous 110km/h for tilting trains) are largely abundant over there (some places were already at 120/140km/h with concrete sleepers and thus were simply electrified and put 10km higher for tilting trains) ... but if one considers thar previously some of it was as low as 10<>60 km/h ... a pendular passing full tilt at 110km/h where previously it was at 10km/h is considered a full upgrade ... :cheers:

From Tunes to faro the Algarve line was renewed (renewed tracks and sleepers and electrification + CTC) and new stations built.

The blue lines on my map are conventional lines, but where the speed is higher, so Lisbon-Porto line is all one type at the moment.

I'm really interested in how this section of line was built. I assume this is on an old trackbed? But it looks as though it's got new build reinforced concrete foundation trackbed underneath the ballast. That must have required the whole line shut down for long periods to put that in. The upgrade of the WCML is high quality, but in very few places are they going to the extent of putting in modern foundations underneath replacements of the rest of the trackbed!! That must ride really well.

the majority of the upgrading has been made using variants , single line temporary zones and too much passenger shifting ... and ocasional "weekend shut-offs" :ohno:

Nothern line blue zones are mostly curve rectifications and 100% NEW track beds (even on the old alignements) ... even the small river passages were completely replaced in most of it.

South line blue lines are NEW lines built along the route of the old ones.

See next few post s for pictures of the pre/post works in various parts of both lines. :cheers:

sotavento

March 21st, 2008, 05:55 PM

I think he meant to ask why there is already a blue line between Lisbon and Porto, and they're also going to construct a red line between both cities. What's the use of having two high speed rail connections between Lisbon and Porto?

The answer to that question is realy simple.

There are currently lots of lines conecting lots of intermediate cities to each other and to Lisboa and Porto.

But they are not enough and have a huge amount of traffic ... way over their current capabilities.

Oeste line is badly hurt because it is unrenovated ... and while it conects to lisbon area it is way out in the litoral ... it connects to Cacem in the outher tip of "sintra Line" ... wich is one of the most densely used railway lines in the entire europe ... more than 250.000 passengers daily.
Malveira to Cacem is about the same distance that would get you to central lisboa ... if only one traveled in the correct direction.
Its a 50 minute ride on the 40km long roundabound route ... only 24km in a straight line ... do the math yourself.
The central area north of lisboa is practicaly without any kind of heavy public transport.
There are currently talks/planning about building a direct route to central lisboa wich will link directly the "future" central station to the Malveira area (thus turning the Oeste line a direct competitor to Northern line) passing by that same area.
The Oeste line will then be upgraded to higher standards

In the upgrade of the Norther Line (direct Lisboa to north along the Tejo river) it was seen as too costly to upgrade some parts of the current corridor ... so it was decided to make a new alignement in some areas ... but then it was already visible that the current line is at full capacity and the current upgrade can't even deal with planned service upgrades today (actualy was back in 2004) ... don't even think about market liberalization over completely saturated railways.

So it was decided that the new alignements shoud became an entire new line ... (being the 3rd)

Departing from lisboa to the north it will be a "rapid" bypass of current northern line some 40km up (almost at the end of the 4 track suburban area) ... wich will be entirely left for "urban"/"comuter" trains and is a major HUB of industrial sidings along its entire lenght ... most of it was already a part of the northern line upgrade project ... it was mostly the bipasses and the access to the new airport (wich in the end will not be buit over there but down south).

From there it will left the northern corridor and go cross country until it reaches Leiria region (in Oeste line some 120km north of lisboa) ... already some 2 or 3intermediate startions are decided ... considering how things are made in portugal we can safely asume that in the end there will be some few more ... but nonetheless this line alignementwas one ot those "to be built when hell freezes" .. so it was simply added to the cause of the new HSL.

Some few "spurs" of this new line are projected/planed/studied along the way ... as well as the upgrading of the Oeste Line to 200km/h ... as a complement of this HSL and as to elevate the tonnage for freight trains.

From Leiria up north the line returns to the area in wich "northern" line runs and is again the re-utilization of a projected direct connection Oeste-Northern line (wich if weren't for the HSL would probably be already built today).

then it runs along the northern line (segregated alignement as to avoid urban interference of the HS trains) wich is already upgraded to 220km/h until Alfarelos.

Alfarelos-coimbra-Pampilhosa is to be completely renewed ... but since the HSL will be a 300km/h line the entire project ws put on hold until the details are finished ... it will have to acomodate the "future" passage of freight trains from the local harbours in UIC(1435mm) gauge so its a complex project.

From Pampilhosa up north until Ovar/Espinho the line is at 200/220km/h and overly saturated ... it was decided to make a bypass ... so it will go directly From Coimbra to Porto (over the area of the narrow gauge "Vouga line").

And the reason to built the new line is simple ... it connects lots of areas one another and removes the "red speedy pins" from a saturated railway line .. .a.k.a. "the northern line".

It will be possible to travel from Lisboa to Porto in 1h15 at 300km/h in the new line (this time seem pretty achievable even by using the current Alfa Pendular trains ... wich are capable of runing at 250km/h).

The line from Lisboa to Madrid is an entire diferent question ... the actual route departs from Entroncamento (in northern lien 100km north of lisboa) and then goes south to Badajoz (already in spain) from where it goes up again to Plasencia and then to Madrid.

It was decided to buid a new bridge to the south margin of the Tejo to conect to Setubal , Algarve , Alentejo and Spain ... saving 30/40 minutes of the roundabout route across the 25/4 bridge ... like all the other tejo bridges it will be almost entirely privately financed.

From there there's two lines to the borther ... the freight line will use the current Alentejo lines up to Evora (partly electrified , partly at 200/250km/h already) and a new HSL (300/350 km/h or more) will be built linking to the new Airport and from there directly to Evora ... this was decided because the current line is expected to carry an HUGE amount of freight traffic when it's complete.

From Evora to Badajoz the 2 lines will became a single one (4 tracks ?) and from there its the RENFE's bussiness ...

It is expected a travel time of less than 2h45 for the 660km long route from Lisboa to Madrid.

The "Minho" line is "at capacity" and near the sea it has little chance to upgrade to higher standards ... so it was decided to upgrade the Porto-Braga line and from there built a new direct route more inland to Valença ...where a new crosing will be built and connect to Vigo ... it will be "mixed" freight/HSL ... and probably will be used by regional trains.

The main causes of this completely radical upgrading process is the huge increase of rail haulage of containers and the current upgrade of the 7 big deep waters harbours ...

there are currently much more "invisible" investments in terms of freight railway than the "visible" HSL investments going around here.

The plans include such things as huge marshaling/intermodal terminals , Supercontainer ships directly from major Chinese harbours to Sines harbour and other things.

So the "easy" solution was to remove the annoying Alfa Pendular trains from the main line ... they eat too much capacity that otherwise could be utilized to put more slow running freight trains. :cheers:

Aditional planned route upgrades include linking Aveiro/Figueira harbours to Salamanca/Irun/Madrid (upgrading the current "Beira Alta line" with "tilting" trains is easy ... or an entirely new line for +200km/h ... things are not decided yet for this route as both options can be constructed in the end) and the direct connection of Algarve to Huelva and Sevilla on the south shores ... but these are just planned for somewhere after 2015. :lol:

Expected timeline:
2010 - lisboa-Madrid direct route open for traffic
2013 - Lisboa-Porto "new" northern line (or at least some bottleneck areas removed)
201x - New cross tagus bridge ... no one can possibly expect that the new bridge will be built in less than 3 years. :ohno:
201x(13? 15?) - Porto-vigo-corunha "new" Atlantic Corridor line open for HS Traffic
20xx - VilarFormoso-Salamanca-Medina (spanish side of the border) electrified ... "Tilting" trains could then link Portuguese cities to Spanish and French cities via the spanish HSL network at good speeds (Porto-Madrid is 550km and at 220/250kmh would be just in the 2h mark).

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/244/portuguesenetworkhistorcp9.jpg

Added a map to show the timeline of the upgrades:
(80's /90's not very acurate ... from "today" forward subject to future world history)
(green areas show anything from "being planned" to "under construction" or "under upgrade" in that particular timeframe)

During the 80's and early 90's basicaly bibloc concrete sleepers and 54kg/m rails were introduced in large areas , 120/140 km/h became comon sightings in speed limits in the main lines.

Middle 90's saw the mass introduction of CONVEL (automated speed and braking control system) , large electrification extensions.

Late 90's was the begining of the complete overhaul of the "core" network with large new sections of line being completely rebuilt with new trackbeds , monoblock sleepers , 60kg/m rails and electrifications ... speeds of up to 220km/h are now possible in the blue areas.
(those speeds could be higher but they choose to favour the "finetuning" of the overhead wires to 60<>220 km/h speeds to acomodate heavier freight trains more easily)
(yess ... speed limited by "overhead wires" .. .and of course ... the "oficial" speed of the rail veichles).

sotavento

March 22nd, 2008, 12:49 AM

Southern Line:

From Lisboa to Aguas de Moura and Pinheiro its all new line:

From Pinheiro to Alcaçer and "pk94" its still the old line.
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/linha_do_Sul/AlcS_003.jpg
- the new variant is being built somewhere on the far hills in the background
- pictures of it will be added later

between pk94 and Grandola (220km/h single line zone) ... the "old" line remains can be seen in the right: (pic of 2002)
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Gran_006.jpg
- it was actualy 140 km/h fraded trackage ... such a waste. :ohno:

Going further south we get the new alignement in Canal Caveira: (pics of 2002 during the construction works)
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Canal_caveira/CCav_028.jpg
- new large curve at the exit of the station
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Canal_caveira/CCav_029.jpg
- the Level crossing was replaced by this bridge
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Canal_caveira/CCav_019.jpg
- the station area is fully fenced and it even has 4m high sound proof barriers nowadays
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Canal_caveira/CCav_015.jpg
^^ Looking north
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Canal_caveira/CCav_017.jpg
^^ Looking south
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Canal_caveira/CCav_020.jpg
^^ the new track
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Canal_caveira/CCav_019.jpg
Aditiona pictures of Canal Caveira station:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/misc_A-F/Canal_Caveira_01.jpg
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/misc_A-F/Canal_Caveira_02.jpg
Pics by José Sousa in 2006

The new large curve at the begining of the ramp:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Canal_caveira/CCav_023.jpg
- the old line continued ahead to te left and made a sharp curve.

The new viaducts south of Canal Caveira ... a steep climb: (pics of 2002)
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Canal_caveira/CCav_018.jpg
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Canal_caveira/CCav_026.jpg
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Canal_caveira/CCav_027.jpg
- notice the old line coming from the left

Large curve in the top of the ramp
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Canal_caveira/CCav_024.jpg
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Canal_caveira/CCav_025.jpg
- notice the old alignement coming from the right to the left ... in the ramp it already crossed from side to side some 4 times ... while the ramp is a large curve almost like a straight line with 3 large viaducts and major cuttings.
- 200km/h tilting trains in both directions ... empty freight trains up ... loaded 2000ton coal downways.
- the curves have some rare geometry due to their "tuning" for pendular trains

Entering Ermidas (from north)
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Ermidas-Sado/ErmS_001.jpg
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Ermidas-Sado/ErmS_000.jpg
- the new substation
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Ermidas-Sado/ErmS_002.jpg
- the new under pass
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Ermidas-Sado/ErmS_003.jpg
- north entrance ... left track is a weightscale for freight trains
- the "point" between the two middle tracks is 200km/h from north-south(right) and "assumedly" 100 km/h south(left)-north <<< a major handicap here since it is the end of the double track
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Ermidas-Sado/ErmS_004.jpg
- the new "minimalistic" (a little bit TOO MUCH minimalistic to say the least) layout of Ermidas
- from left to right ... upper platform/shelter track ... 2 passing tracks ... down platform/shelter track
- there are actualy 2 "points" in the other end of "upper" track ... one bypasses the scale seen above.
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Ermidas-Sado/ErmS_009.jpg
- a picture to show how the railtrack was over there prior to the modernization
- the old part of the junction (north) came directly from the station (line 1 ... aka Upper stop track) to the Sines line (to the left) ... the new south junction diverged rather tangently (temporary connection) was also built in 2002.
- subsequently everything was later replaced by proper infraestructure (it only lasted some 6 months "tops" in this configuration)
Some pictures more updated of Ermidas Station can be found HERE:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Ermidas-Sado/pix.html

Ermidas-TorreVã ... 140km/h "old" track (from the 80's actualy):
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/Ermidas-Sado/ErmS_009.jpg

Alvalade station is in the middle of the double track section:
Some pictures HERE:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Alvalade/pix.html
- notice that the "old" line had a sharp curve to the left and was replaced by a softer 1,3km long viaduct
-

Torre Vã (was provisionaly upgraded to station during the works)
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/misc_T-Z/ToVa_004.jpg
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/misc_T-Z/ToVa_008.jpg

Lots of pictures of the time of construction can be found HERE:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/linha_do_Sul/pix.html
- as can be seen the "South line" upgrade is mostly NEW lines and completely diferent alignements ... lets say 99% new line.
- built "minimalisticaly" to alow 200/220 km/h ... 250 km/h in the near (?) future when freight traffic is diverted from the line by the new direct route to Sines.

From Torre Vã to the south the upgrades weren't aimed at "high speeds" but merely to alow some "not that shamefull" speeds as 110/140 km/h. :ohno:

sotavento

March 22nd, 2008, 07:47 AM

Looking back north:

As a curiosilty ... the large straight section on wich most High Speed records were broken in portugal ... is actualy "not" an high speed area of the northern line:
- recta de Maceda between Ovar and Espinho ... currently at 140km/h (160km/h alowed for tilting trains)
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/misc/track/IMG_2524.jpg
Photo: Pedro Costa http://comboiosdonorte.fotopic.net/

sotavento

April 5th, 2008, 05:14 AM

Some news on the new Lisboa-Madrid HSL:

http://www.rave.pt/concursos/ppp_poceirao_caia/anuncio.htm

Poceirão-Caia (170km) wich is part of the Lisboa-Madrid was put for tenders last month (anounced in the 14th of March) so now it's almost time to open the proposals (1 month time).

Why the HSL Lisboa-Madrid will be a "mixed" traffic line: (just put it on google translator)
http://www.rave.pt/estudos/merc.htm

Avaliação de Impacte Ambiental (where you can get the PDF's with the MAPS of the route)

Troço Moita/Montemor-o-Novo (Eixo Lisboa-Madrid, Lote 3A2)
http://www.rave.pt/ambiente/MMLM/L3A2_resumo_nt_EIA.htm

Troço Montemor-o-Novo/Évora (Eixo Lisboa-Madrid, Lote 3B)
http://www.rave.pt/ambiente/MELM/L3B.htm

Troço Évora/Elvas (Eixo Lisboa-Madrid, Lote 3C)
http://www.rave.pt/ambiente/EELM/L3C.htm

Troço Elvas/Caia (Eixo Lisboa-Madrid, Lote LTF)
http://www.rave.pt/ambiente/ECLM/LTF.htm

tuckerbox

April 5th, 2008, 07:08 AM

Thank you for the very impresive pics. I cant get over how clean and tidy your rail tracks and stations are. Not like over here in Western Australia with grafiti and weeds everywhere.

sotavento

April 5th, 2008, 09:07 AM

^^ We have those also but not on high speed corridors ... wellll ... actualy we do have them in places where high speed trains run. :cheers:

Here are some "specimens" from the southern part of Lisboa-Porto main "northern" line:

Lisboa "Chelas" station (while not an actual part of the northern line this is actualy one of the points where the NEW bridge will connect to the actual railways on the northern bank of the TEJO ... it will be a triangular junction with one point to the bridge itself and the other will go north to Lisboa(Oriente) station:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Chelas/Chelas_03.jpg

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Chelas/Chelas_01.jpg

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Chelas/Chelas_07.jpg

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Chelas/Chelas_13.jpg

Santa Iria station: A tipical suburban station in northern line just outside lisboa ... 160km/h in the "slow" tracks (2 inside??) ... 180km/h in the fast tracks (2 outside???) (200km/h for pendular trains)
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Santa_Iria/Santa_Iria_13-01-2007_3.jpg
Photo: Jose Sousa

Povoa station: (15km north of lisboa)
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Povoa/Povoa_02.jpg
Photo: Jose Sousa

A nice flyover on the down fast track just north of Povoa (nice to go by full pendulation at 200km/h)
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Povoa/Povoa_02.jpg
Photo: Jose Sousa

Santarem station:
An old station near the Tejo river (some 74km north of lisboa) ... photo taken during a flooding ... a new variant (new station included) is being built (works didn't start yet) on the other side of the city.
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Santarem/Santarem_007.jpg

Mato de Miranda: (actualy a part of the "to-be-renovated-in-the-future" section of Northern Line ... trains pass over here at 140km/h ... a slow speed by our standards)

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Mato_Miranda/Mato_Miranda_006.jpg

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Mato_Miranda/Mato_Miranda_004.jpg

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Mato_Miranda/Mato_Miranda_003.jpg

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Mato_Miranda/Mato_Miranda_008.jpg

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Mato_Miranda/Mato_Miranda_013.jpg

Riachos station:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Riachos/Riachos_012.jpg
Photo: Jose Sousa
- just south of entroncamento ... unrenovated tracks (140km/h)

Entroncamento station:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Entroncamento/Entroncamento_14.jpg

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Entroncamento/Entroncamento_03.jpg

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Entroncamento/Entroncamento_32.jpg

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/station/Entroncamento/Entroncamento_31.jpg
Photos: Jose Sousa
^^ Still unrenovated .. .that little pedestrian crossing and the crazy layout are cause to a very low (60km/h) speed restriction nowadays

sotavento

June 3rd, 2008, 03:25 AM

Thomson Financial News
Portugal govt launches first tranche of TGV train line tender for 1.450 bln eur
06.02.08, 1:45 PM ET

LISBON (Thomson Financial) - The Portuguese government has launched the tender to build the first tranche of the TGV high-speed train link between the capitals of Portugal and Spain, valued at 1.450 billion euros, Public Works minister Mario Lino said.

The tender will cover the construction of 167 kilometres of high-speed rail line between the localities of Poceiro and Caia, as well as a further 92 kilometres of conventional rail line, and will also include the construction of a station at the city of Evora.

Consortia have four months to present a bid for the tender, with the winning bid expected to be announced in the third quarter of 2009.

The Madrid-Lisbon high-speed rail link is expected to start operations in 2013.

According to press reports, a consortium including Mota Engil, SGPS SA, Teixeira Duarte - Engenharia e Construcoes, SA and Sacyr Vallehermoso SA's Somague unit is set to bid for the first tranche of the TGV high-speed rail link between Lisbon and the Spanish border.

Another consortium made up of Grupo Soares da Costa, SGPS, SA and Brisa - Autoestradas de Portugal, SA is also reported to be forming to lodge a bid for the tender.

jonathan.gleave@thomsonreuters.com

jg/jlc

^^ It's officialy rolling ...

priamos

June 7th, 2008, 08:02 AM

^^ It's officialy rolling ...

Contratulations, Sotavento. Your railway authorities deserve rave reviews (pun intented!) for this decision. As you know from our discussion on another thread I'm very much in favour of new solutions as opposed to patching up the existing ones. This one looks wholesome, I must say. I was particularly impressed with the part about "conventional rail line" around Evora, because I had wondered if they would give into a "German temptation" and divert the entire line to this intermediate stop. It seems not, so good luck to you guys!

One question, BTW: What happens between Lisbon and Poceirão? I understand that, among other things, a new railway bridge over the Tego is planned, but when is that part of the line going to move ahead?

sotavento

June 15th, 2008, 04:58 PM

^^ That is precisely why the lisboa-madrid line is divided in such parts:

Lisboa-barreiro-Poceirão = 2x double track
- Barreiro-Poceirão "conventional" route will use the existing one (dating from 1860) wich is half electrified (as aprt of Lisboa-Algarve upgrade of the South Line and at 200km/h) and the remaining part is currently under upgrade works (rennewing stations , electrification , with CTC signaling recently installed, route speed is 120/140 km/h but catenary and signaling is being installed to allow future 250km/h)
-New bridge Lisboa-barreiro = 4x tracks ... 2x uic and 2x iberica (possible to future conversion to UIC) ... it will be a 9km bridge (max speed is not certain yet ... could be as low as 120km/h or as high as 200km/h ???)
From barreiro the 2x UIC tracks will go directly to poceirão (max speeds as of today expected to be 350km/h)

In poceirão the Lisboa-Algarve "upgraded" route will diverge from the main line , with another branch to the (projected) new Lisboa Airport

from there to the borderthe LAV eill follow a direct course (passing thru evora city limits) and the OLD "conventional" route will be used for freight to evora ... from evora to the border there will be 3 or 4 tracks ... 2 being at 350km/h UIC and the remaining in dual.gauge sleepers will be assembled in iberica gauge (awaiting future passage to UIC)

About shedules and such ... its completely different the sheduling of a 30km "urban" railway with a 9km bridge than that of a 160km of "countryside" ... maiby in the end of the year the oficial we can hear the anouncement of the lisboa-poceirão section or at least that things are under EIA (environmental impact study).

Shedule is to conectto spain before the end of 2013 and the bridge is expected to becomplete in 2014 ... since the only section realy missing is the Evora-Badajoz (80km?) direct trains can start as early as that particular section is complete.

hans280

June 19th, 2008, 09:32 AM

Schedule is to conect to spain before the end of 2013 and the bridge is expected to becomplete in 2014 ... since the only section realy missing is the Evora-Badajoz (80km?) direct trains can start as early as that particular section is complete.

Sotavento, are the Spaniards "playing ball"? I ask because if you consider (1) the geography of Spain; and (2) the large number of other AVE lines they are constructing I'd have thought a line into Portugal via Badajoz was pretty low on their list of priorities.

By contrast, Spain has in the part begged and beseized France for a high-speed link between Barcelona and the Rhone Valley (which is NOT high on the French list of priorities). The French finally caved in... only to be told that the finalisation of the Spanish LGV from Barcelona to the border will be delayed until further notice. For some years we'll have a TGV train racing all the way from Paris to... Figueras, where the standard-gauge line stops. :bash: In my view the Portuguese should brace themselves for disappointments and delays.

elfabyanos

June 19th, 2008, 09:54 AM

^^ I thought Lisbon - Madrid was part of the EU route aspiration and has recieved funding from the EU? And really don't think that it could be said Spain is dragging it's heels - even if it takes 10 years for that bit you say to be finished that still as fast if not quicker than it would take other European countries, especially Italy, Germany and the UK.

hans280

June 19th, 2008, 11:55 AM

I thought Lisbon - Madrid was part of the EU route aspiration and has recieved funding from the EU?

Is is certainly eligible for EU funding in the context of the Trans-European Networks (not to mention Portuguese and Spanish structural funds), but that's not quite the same as to say that it's an urgent priority. On the list of TENs you have purely domestic projects that are included after intense lobbying, railways that are unlikely ever to be built, etc. The link Rodby(DK)/Puttgarten(DE) has figured as a priority for years, but work got underway only when "mighty Denmark" offered its neighbour to finance the whole thing.

And really don't think that it could be said Spain is dragging it's heels - even if it takes 10 years for that bit you say to be finished that still as fast if not quicker than it would take other European countries, especially Italy, Germany and the UK.

I didn't say that Spain is dragging its heels, but you must concede two points: (1) the French, when they get their act together, are faster in rolling out their "grands projects"; and (2) the Spanish government is given to a certain "machismo" in its transport policy, announcing massive schemes that they are unlikely to be able to achieve in the time available. Perhaps this is a way of trying to discipline the domestic debate and/or galvanise the planning procedures?

Dinivan

June 19th, 2008, 01:11 PM

I didn't say that Spain is dragging its heels, but you must concede two points: (1) the French, when they get their act together, are faster in rolling out their "grands projects"; and (2) the Spanish government is given to a certain "machismo" in its transport policy, announcing massive schemes that they are unlikely to be able to achieve in the time available. Perhaps this is a way of trying to discipline the domestic debate and/or galvanise the planning procedures?

On the contrary, Spain has mostly managed to achieve the schedule dates, only when major unpredictable problems have appeared (such as the unstable terrain found in some sections of the Barcelona-Madrid line) have the schedules been missed. And the TGV to the border has been under construction for quite a long time already, if you take the train from Switzerland to Spain for example you can see the works from the old line and they're in a pretty advanced stage; it's actually the french the ones who are going to be miserably late, cos you cannot see anything under construction.

JMFA

June 19th, 2008, 01:24 PM

towards portuguese border, the spanish are already constructing a part of the new HSL Lisboa-Madrid... although they dont anounce a completion data, the international agremment points to 2013 the oficial conclusion for the entire line. and yes, the EU Trans-European Networks funds are already aproved for this line (at least for the portuguese part).

elfabyanos

June 19th, 2008, 01:41 PM

Is is certainly eligible for EU funding in the context of the Trans-European Networks (not to mention Portuguese and Spanish structural funds), but that's not quite the same as to say that it's an urgent priority. On the list of TENs you have purely domestic projects that are included after intense lobbying, railways that are unlikely ever to be built, etc. The link Rodby(DK)/Puttgarten(DE) has figured as a priority for years, but work got underway only when "mighty Denmark" offered its neighbour to finance the whole thing.

Thats a really sweeping and unsubstantiated claim, I would like to know how purely domestic projects exist in TENs, seeingst as that would be somewhat of an oxymoron. Are you saying Germany refused to build something, and then when Denmark offered to pay for it, only then did Germany decide to go ahead? And if this is the case - how/why is this relevant to Lisbon - Madrid route which is not within the jurisdiction of either Germany or Denmark?

I didn't say that Spain is dragging its heels, but you must concede two points: (1) the French, when they get their act together, are faster in rolling out their "grands projects"; and (2) the Spanish government is given to a certain "machismo" in its transport policy, announcing massive schemes that they are unlikely to be able to achieve in the time available. Perhaps this is a way of trying to discipline the domestic debate and/or galvanise the planning procedures?

No, I can't concede these. The French have themselves placed doubt on the completion of the last bit from Montpellier to Perpignan any time soon, whilst the Spanish have started construction on their bit as Dinivan has stated, and I believe to be true as well. And I also believe that the Spanish have had quite a good record of project delivery.

JMFA

June 19th, 2008, 03:07 PM

as far as we know, we (the portuguese) are the ones who are starting latter than expected.. still the dead line is fixed.. so it would be a litle precipitated if we started already saying that the spanish wont finish their part on schedule ;)

hans280

June 20th, 2008, 10:28 AM

Thats a really sweeping and unsubstantiated claim, I would like to know how purely domestic projects exist in TENs, seeingst as that would be somewhat of an oxymoron.

It's a sweeping claim, true, but it is sadly not unsubstantiated. Take a look at the priority axes according to TEN: http://ec.europa.eu/ten/transport/maps/axes_en.htm.
Unsurprisingly, national planners have tried to give a certain trans-national slant to their pet projects to gain EU funding. OK, but some of these schemes cry to high heavens. For example, the transalpine connection between Germany and Italy is now prolonged to Palermo in order to get EU money for the totally intra-Italian Messenia bridge. The Nordic rail corridors are not the least bit "transnational" apart from the fact that a couple of the lines end at a border. Also, I think you'll find that the Iberian railway plans, while containing undeniably transnational links, contain several purely domestic elements.

Are you saying Germany refused to build something, and then when Denmark offered to pay for it, only then did Germany decide to go ahead? And if this is the case - how/why is this relevant to Lisbon - Madrid route which is not within the jurisdiction of either Germany or Denmark?

The relevance is, this link has appeared not only on the TEN list, but on the top-TEN (pun intended!) of high-priority projecs, for ages. The Danes initially thought that this fact would make the Germans feel "honour bound" to get moving, but they were mistaken. The Spanish could equally well sleep on the link Madrid-Lisbon if they chose. (But remember: I'm not saying that this will happen. I was asking.) And yes, in the end Denmark has offered to pay for the bridge. A state treaty to this effect is being drawn up as we speak.

No, I can't concede these. The French have themselves placed doubt on the completion of the last bit from Montpellier to Perpignan any time soon, whilst the Spanish have started construction on their bit as Dinivan has stated, and I believe to be true as well. And I also believe that the Spanish have had quite a good record of project delivery.

Elfa, you're mixing two things. The French never committed to a time schedule for completing Montpellier-Perpignan. They committed to a time schedule for completing their part of Perpignan-Barcelona. So did the Spanish. However, at this point in time it looks like Perpignan-Figueras will be finished on schedule while it is abundantly clear that Figueras-Barcelona will not.

On the issue of the Spanish record of project delivery, let me share a personal experience. In 2005 I had booked a summer vacation to Spain, with hotel rooms reserved in Sevilla, Madrid and Barcelona in sequence. The idea was of course to take the AVE from Sevilla to Madrid, next from Madrid to Barcelona. Idiot that I was, it didn't even occur to me that the line M-B that was scheduled to open in 2004 (subject to repeat assurances from the then minister of public works that the project was on track) would not stand ready in the summer of 2005. Well... in the end I had to cancel. :ohno:

sotavento

June 28th, 2008, 04:11 AM

Sotavento, are the Spaniards "playing ball"? I ask because if you consider (1) the geography of Spain; and (2) the large number of other AVE lines they are constructing I'd have thought a line into Portugal via Badajoz was pretty low on their list of priorities.

By contrast, Spain has in the part begged and beseized France for a high-speed link between Barcelona and the Rhone Valley (which is NOT high on the French list of priorities). The French finally caved in... only to be told that the finalisation of the Spanish LGV from Barcelona to the border will be delayed until further notice. For some years we'll have a TGV train racing all the way from Paris to... Figueras, where the standard-gauge line stops. :bash: In my view the Portuguese should brace themselves for disappointments and delays.

^^ the portugese part of the Lisboa-Madrid HSL is composed of 3 different sections.

i) 40km long ... a new 9km bridge to aliviate the overused "25 de abril" bridge (150.000 autos and double deck trains at maximum capacity) and to reduce travel times down south bu 30 minutes (for passenger trains) and to allow direct running of north-south freight trains (currently running thru a secondary single line)

ii) 80km long ... the "intermediate" connection segment ... it realy is not a necessity to build this section ... it is just a connection segment per se ... not even a single station is on the building board here. :ohno:

iii) 80km long ... the Evora-Badajoz new direct route ... a route exists (2 sides of a triangle actualy) but is very "spartan" ... and (in one of the triangle) is currently closed to traffic ... it will be a 3 tracks section.

One has to take notice that i) and iii) would greatly benefit from ii) being built ... and considering that ii) is paralel to a single track route it is more like the doubling of that same route than a "new" NEW route.

Nevermind the spanish erratic shedduling ... Badajoz-Merida is under construction ... if they choose to leave Caceres-Madrid to a posterior date it will still be a 140/160km/h route in that section. :ohno:

Caceres-Lisboa should be somewhere around 330km ... so 1h travel time (or something slightly above that) should be feasible ... at 150kmh the remaining 320km would only take a little over 2h ... :bash:

^^ If they just built a single/double track capable of 250km/h running it would save a lot of work ... make it paralel to the existing one and it would even be better. :bash:

sotavento

September 7th, 2008, 06:49 PM

It's a sweeping claim, true, but it is sadly not unsubstantiated. Take a look at the priority axes according to TEN: http://ec.europa.eu/ten/transport/maps/axes_en.htm.
Unsurprisingly, national planners have tried to give a certain trans-national slant to their pet projects to gain EU funding. OK, but some of these schemes cry to high heavens. For example, the transalpine connection between Germany and Italy is now prolonged to Palermo in order to get EU money for the totally intra-Italian Messenia bridge. The Nordic rail corridors are not the least bit "transnational" apart from the fact that a couple of the lines end at a border. Also, I think you'll find that the Iberian railway plans, while containing undeniably transnational links, contain several purely domestic elements.

The relevance is, this link has appeared not only on the TEN list, but on the top-TEN (pun intended!) of high-priority projecs, for ages. The Danes initially thought that this fact would make the Germans feel "honour bound" to get moving, but they were mistaken. The Spanish could equally well sleep on the link Madrid-Lisbon if they chose. (But remember: I'm not saying that this will happen. I was asking.) And yes, in the end Denmark has offered to pay for the bridge. A state treaty to this effect is being drawn up as we speak.

Elfa, you're mixing two things. The French never committed to a time schedule for completing Montpellier-Perpignan. They committed to a time schedule for completing their part of Perpignan-Barcelona. So did the Spanish. However, at this point in time it looks like Perpignan-Figueras will be finished on schedule while it is abundantly clear that Figueras-Barcelona will not.

On the issue of the Spanish record of project delivery, let me share a personal experience. In 2005 I had booked a summer vacation to Spain, with hotel rooms reserved in Sevilla, Madrid and Barcelona in sequence. The idea was of course to take the AVE from Sevilla to Madrid, next from Madrid to Barcelona. Idiot that I was, it didn't even occur to me that the line M-B that was scheduled to open in 2004 (subject to repeat assurances from the then minister of public works that the project was on track) would not stand ready in the summer of 2005. Well... in the end I had to cancel. :ohno:

Axes and priority projects Project
00 Priority axes and projects
01 Railway axis Berlin-Verona/Milano-Bologna-Napoli-Messina-Palermo
02 High-speed railway axis Paris-Bruxelles/Brussel-Köln-Amsterdam-London
03 High-speed railway axis of south-west Europe
04 High-speed railway axis east
05 Betuwe line
06 Railway axis Lyon-Trieste-Divača/Koper-Divača-Ljubljana-Budapest-Ukrainian border
07 Motorway axis Igoumenitsa/Patra-Athina-Sofia-Budapest
08 Multimodal axis Portugal/Spain-rest of Europe
09 Railway axis Cork-Dublin-Belfast-Stranraer (completed 2001)
10 Malpensa (completed 2001)
11 Öresund fixed link (completed 2000)
12 Nordic triangle railway/road axis
13 UK/Ireland/Benelux road axis
14 West coast main line
15 Galileo
16 Freight railway axis Sines-Madrid-Paris
17 Railway axis Paris-Strasbourg-Stuttgart-Wien-Bratislava
18 Rhine/Meuse-Main-Danube inland waterway axis
19 High-speed rail interoperability on the Iberian peninsula
20 Fehmarn Belt railway axis
21 Motorways of the sea
- Motorway of the sea of western Europe (leading from Portugal and Spain via the Atlantic Arc to the North Sea and the Irish Sea);
- Motorway of the sea of south-east Europe (connecting the Adriatic Sea to the Ionian Sea and the Eastern Mediterranean to include Cyprus);
- Motorway of the sea of south-west Europe (western Mediterranean), connecting Spain, France, Italy and including Malta, and linking with the motorway of the sea of south‑east Europe.

22 Railway axis Athina-Sofia-Budapest-Wien-Praha-Nürnberg/Dresden
23 Railway axis Gdansk-Warszawa-Brno/Bratislava-Wien
24 Railway axis Lyon/Genova-Basel-Duisburg-Rotterdam/Antwerpen
25 Motorway axis Gdansk-Brno/Bratislava-Wien
26 Railway/road axis Ireland/United Kingdom/continental Europe
27 "Rail Baltica" axis Warsaw-Kaunas-Riga-Tallinn-Helsinki
28 "Eurocaprail" on the Brussels-Luxembourg-Strasbourg railway axis
29 Railway axis of the Ionian/Adriatic intermodal corridor
30 Inland waterway Seine-Scheldt

^^ All of these report to the MIXED railway Lisboa/Sines-Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres and its branch lines ... yes ... to the EU its one and the same. :cheers:

and by the way ... Coruña-Vigo , Vigo-Porto , Porto-Lisboa , Lisboa-Algarve and Algarve-Huelva-Sevilla are also considered to be the same corridor. :cheers:

This is all due to the EU wanting to enforce a gauge change in the peninsula (thus the large incentives)

sotavento

January 22nd, 2009, 08:35 AM

Some updates:

1- The HSL Lisboa-Poceirão-Caia(Badajoz)-Madrid is well underway ... they are already choosing the contractors:

Source: http://www.rave.pt/tabid/232/ItemID/253/View/Details/Default.aspx

2- Lisboa-Porto HSL is only a little behind:

Lisboa-alenquer (roughly 40km) public consultancy period is over ... the sections north of it will soon follow.

3- Barreiro-PinhalNovo ... a section that forms part of the slow tracks of the future Lisboa-Madrid line is already electrified ... soon they will start work on the V.Novas-Evora railway (also a port of the Lx-Mad connection) ... wich means that there are 50km electrified out of 115km built ...

... for the Lisboa-Madrid "corridor" there are actually only 29km missing ... :lol:

4- Some sections of the Northern Line are due to receive an upgrade in signaling and electric systems.

5- other sections are about to start construction work ... to be upgraded to 220km/h this year.

Kuvvaci

January 23rd, 2009, 07:48 AM

very nice development

Paulo2004

January 24th, 2009, 03:51 PM

Can't wait!

sotavento

February 18th, 2009, 05:51 AM

Phase 1 of the Alcaçer variant is complete ... next ... the bridge over the Sado river itself (Already past EIA phase) ... and then the track/catenary/Signaling ... and then some 29km added to the portuguese total mileage of HSL. :cheers:

Complete works of the 1st PHASE (THE STATION PINHEIRO / 94 KM SOUTH OF THE LINE)

http://www.refer.pt/fotos/foto_1_457.jpg

The REFER has terminated for work on the works of the 1st Phase of the variant of Alcácer between the station 94 km from Pinheiro and the South Line, a distance of 29km, which represents a reduction of 6.5 kilometers for the route current.
The contract, concluded on 15 October, was marked by the construction of a wide range of infrastructure, of which are:

- Out of earthworks, drainage, infrastructure protection, water and wildlife passages of the new platform means;
- Implementation of the viaducts on the river bank of S. Martin, with 852m in length and the stream of water Cova, with 271m;
- Implementation of the viaduct EN120 (IC1) with 52m;
- Implementation of eight and seven passages below overpasses to the railways and their re-admission;
- Construction of infrastructure of fixed installations for electric traction (line);
- Construction of infrastructure and signaling systems and telecommunications;
- Construction of a road parallel to the adjacent rail;
- Sealing of the entire railway infrastructure.

Based on a design developed by FERBRITAS's work contract was awarded in response to international public tender, the consortium OPWAY SA / Teodoro Gomes Alho, SA, the value of 23,912,949.70 euros and an execution time of 611 calendar days.
The audit work was undertaken by the consortium WPPT PLANEGE, SA / PENGEST SA.

This first phase of the Project's variant of Alcácer is the subject of a Community contribution of 50 per cent by the ERDF under the QCAIII.

A variant of Alcácer - project that integrates the strategic guidelines for the rail industry - representing a total investment estimated at around 144 million euros and is one of the priority actions for the national rail network, because it allows:

a) Strengthening the competitiveness of the Port of Sines, through its connection to Spain, seen in connection Sines / Évora / Elvas, its linkage with the network of platforms (Poceirão and Elvas), with the ports of Setúbal and Lisbon and connection with High Speed Lisbon / Madrid, with the aim of promoting interoperability of national railway network with European networks of transport of goods;

b) improving the provision of railway passenger long-distance connection in Lisbon - Algarve, by reducing the travel time and reliability, security, becoming an incentive to transfer road traffic to rail, with all the positive impacts resulting therefrom.

Ongoing work of the 2nd phase of this venture as the construction of the bridge over the River Sado and the restoration of access and it is expected to open international tender for the award of the contract for rail and line in the first quarter of 2009.

sotavento

February 18th, 2009, 05:57 AM

A bit of old news:

Variant of Santarém - Public Consultation
Jun 2008
In keeping with the Aarhus Convention and the Decree - Law No. 69/2000 of 3 May, is in the public consultation, the procedure of environmental impact assessment, between June 11 and 22, July 2008, the project called "Modernization of the Northern line - subsection 1.3 (Setil - Entroncamento) - Trecho Vale de Santarém / Mato Miranda", commonly known as "variant of Santarém.

In this period, the project is subject to public participation through provision of non-technical summary (RNT) and the Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) for information and consultation of stakeholders, thereby ensuring the ability of citizens to contribute their views and suggestions.

To this end, the RNT and EIA can be found in the institutions of government whose powers and territorial deployment is warranted, particularly the Commission for Coordination and Regional Development of Lisbon and Tagus Valley, the City Halls of Cartaxo and Santarém and Town of their joints, and the RNT is also available at the website of the Portuguese Agency for the Environment, at http://www2.apambiente.pt/IPAMB_DPP/publico/eia_cp.asp.

With a length of approximately 26km, the variant of Santarém allow operating speeds of 160km / h, the conventional trains and 190km / h, the tilting trains. Leaving the current track about 1.5 km after the stop of Vale de Santarém, the variant turned north on viaduct, after which they are two alternatives to circumvent the heads of Manteigas: by west by part of Asseca, passing along Reimão of the Young and the side of the cluster of Fontainhas (solution 1) or, for spring, along the low of the Ribeira Fontainhas (solution 2).

The two alternatives converge to a new and unique track around the Young Owl, towards the place where the new station will be de Santarém, Quinta South of the Angels, with the pass of the baker.

The building of the new passenger station will be located at the ground, located on the lines, which develop in tunnel. The general design of the interface includes the creation of about 500 parking spaces and a Square of access, partially covered, to articulate the place of departure and making passenger (kiss & ride), taxi and bus stops.

After the season, the variant will remain in tunnel, by around 460m in place that minimizes the impact on the core housing Portela of the bakers, and then, continuing towards the source, through the Ribeira de Cabanas on viaduct, pass south of Alcanhões, beat filled the bed of the Vala of Seixo also on viaduct, to influence north, bypassing the lifting Monteiro, and go again in the current channel of the Northern line, about 1.5 km before Vale de Figueira station.

The investment for the variant of Santarém amounts to about 220 million.

Sicne the decision to buit a new HSL the North Line improvement program has seen a little dongrading ... Santarem station will be "passable" only at 190km/h ... but since the direct lisboa-porto trains will pass to the HSL all passenger trains that continue to use the north line are expected to actually STOP in Santarem. :lol:

The sections south of santarem are already modernized to 200/220 and the section just north is also in the process ... (see next post)

hoosier

February 21st, 2009, 01:52 AM

It seems like the Iberian Peninsula is surpassing the rest of Europe in terms of HSR.

JoKo65

February 21st, 2009, 05:25 PM

It seems like the Iberian Peninsula is surpassing the rest of Europe in terms of HSR.

Be careful, according to german news there is the danger that Portugal and Spain will be bankrupt in some weeks.
The next months can change a lot.

gincan

February 21st, 2009, 05:52 PM

Be careful, according to german news there is the danger that Portugal and Spain will be bankrupt in some weeks.
The next months can change a lot.

Tell me one country that isn't close to bankruptsy during this ressesion. Even Germany is threatened of going bust over the governmental expeditures to combat the high unemployment.

JoKo65

February 21st, 2009, 06:24 PM

Tell me one country that isn't close to bankruptsy during this ressesion. Even Germany is threatened of going bust over the governmental expeditures to combat the high unemployment.

Yes, but the level of danger is different. Look this map:

http://www.fr-online.de/top_news/?em_cnt=1678640&em_src=649357&em_ivw=fr_topnews

red = big danger
yellow = danger
green = danger exists, but is not big

stripes = non-€-countries

Dinivan

February 21st, 2009, 09:56 PM

Be careful, according to german news there is the danger that Portugal and Spain will be bankrupt in some weeks.
The next months can change a lot.

You can't really believe that, do you? I mean, spanish government's debt-to-gdp level is close to half that of germany... anyway, what does this have to do with infrastructures?

sotavento

March 29th, 2009, 05:14 AM

Be careful, according to german news there is the danger that Portugal and Spain will be bankrupt in some weeks.
The next months can change a lot.

Why should "portugal" be bankrupt ???

Our only "problematic" companies are Quimonda , Siemens , VW-Autoeuropa , Blaupunkt and other such .de companies ... se any pattern here ?? :lol:

Anyway ... nice map ... wich means ???

Except from some sidekicks from YOUR crysis we are very well thanks ... never mind the possible 5% to 10% drop in our GDP this year due to a lot of german owned companies getin into insolvency here ... since they represent only a couple hundred jobs here we can live with it (opel run away a2 years ago and we managed to survive). :ohno:

To even compare the effects of the global crysis on this small-company-local-shop portuguese economy to the possible colapse of any given industrial country (like germany) seems rather far fetched.

Do you even know that over here 50% of the banking sector is in fact STATE OWNED ??? and never mind the crysis since we seem to have deeeeeep pockets when it counts. :cheers:

sotavento

April 2nd, 2009, 07:32 AM

Last monday the international tender for the TTT (third tagus crossing) was launched:

Source (in portuguese): http://www.rave.pt/tabid/232/ItemID/263/View/Details/Default.aspx

The 200km between Lisboa and The border with spain are already put for tenders so we are officially rolling.

the bridge itself will be , 200km/h , four track railway bridge on the lower level and a 3 plus 3 lanes highway/motorway on the upper level ... its a bridge some 11 quilometers long.

The railway will then procede by the old South Line (the 2 comuter/freight/conventional tracks) and the 2 High Speed tracks will enter in a tunel ....

... no need to remind that the remaining trackage all the way to the border will be run "fully" at 350km/h. :cheers:

traveler

April 6th, 2009, 01:22 AM

Lusitania on the move! :D very nice.

sotavento

July 10th, 2009, 01:20 AM

Obras na Variante Ferroviária de Alcácer do Sal

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn113/mourarq/Novaimagem4-1.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn113/mourarq/Novaimagem13.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn113/mourarq/Novaimagem14.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn113/mourarq/Novaimagem5-2.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn113/mourarq/Novaimagem15.jpg

Render's
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn113/mourarq/Novaimagem12.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn113/mourarq/Novaimagem8.jpg

Traçado
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn113/mourarq/Novaimagem9-1.jpg

Bit by bit the gaps are closing ... :cheers:

I believe that it should count as a 100% new track (basic project speed of 250km/h actually) ... and the sections north and south of it are "parallel alignements" to the old track (now dismantled).

traveler

July 12th, 2009, 12:29 AM

Very nice!

Motorways

July 13th, 2009, 10:51 AM

sotavento

July 17th, 2009, 11:41 PM

It´s been a great surprise for me to find this thread, i had the idea that the HSL project in Portugal was totally stopped and blocked by the government but now i see those pics and i realize the it´s still U/C and doing great!

Congrats Portugal, that´s gonna be a real step forward to have a great comunication system in all the senses, first with your motorways and now with the railways!

The HSL projects in portugal date from late 90's ... and they were never stopped. :dunno:

Theres a couple of "ultra fast" mainlines that are still to be built (not a single sleeper placed yet) but the other routes are constantly being built/upgraded.

The portuguese section of the Aveiro/Coimbra(Pampilhosa)-guarda-Salamanca-Medina was upgraded/electrified way back in 1995 and we are still waiting for the spanish electrification (wich was due to be innaugurated in 2008 acording to some "politically" sources ... namely a plate in the Salamanca station stating such thing)

Porto-Galicia(Vigo and beyond) it was renovated/modernized to the 2004 Eurocup ... but only up to Braga (some 50km).

Lisboa-Badajoz-Madrid is half modernized with some sections rebuilt to 200km/h and another one completelly reconstructed as a 250km/h route (still has no signaling or electrification installed today so it's stuck at 120km/h wich is the top speed of diesel traction nowadays)

Lisboa-Porto and Lisboa-Algarve are both "half" modernized (to anything above 160km/h) and "half" in a deep hole because of the incoming HSL projects ...

The HSL routes themselves consist of a "brand new" Lisboa-Porto and Braga-Vigo (projects due to enter the construction phase in the next year or something like that) and a new Lisboa-Badajoz HSL ... it was decided to postpone for a couple of days/weeks/months(???) the finnal anouncement of the winning proposal due to the proximity of both national and municipal elections to the previous anounced date.

They just postponed that particular decision ... nothing has been canned.

And there are works in the old conventional routes here and there ... the major one being the Alcaçer variant (that bridge over there) and a couple of electrifications

^^ v.novas-Evora on the lisboa-madrid route will be next so out of the 180km separatin lisboa from badajoz (spain) there will be some 100km modernized and at-up-to 250km/h as early as late this year or early next year. :cheers:

sotavento

September 3rd, 2009, 11:39 PM

More HSR news:

Alta velocidade: Governo lança concurso para estudos de TGV em Aveiro
O Governo, através da empresa Rede Ferroviária de Alta Velocidade (RAVE), prepara-se para lançar esta semana o concurso público para a elaboração do estudo prévio e do estudo de impacte ambiental para o troço entre Aveiro e Celorico da Beira do eixo de TGV até Salamanca

A linha Aveiro/Salamanca foi, em 2005, uma das previstas na apresentação do projecto de alta velocidade, mas acabaria por não ser considerada prioritária pelo Governo.
O valor estimado para esta fase do processo é de 1,8 milhões de euros.
Os consórcios interessados em concorrer, na sua maioria empresas de engenharia, têm 60 dias para apresentar propostas, que serão depois avaliadas pela RAVE.
O custo da proposta terá um peso relevante na escolha (65 por cento), ao passo que os restantes 35 por cento incidem na qualidade das propostas.
(Ler artigo completo na edição em papel)

Diário de Aveiro

para quem andava com medo...
Sorry : in portuguese only:

Basically it's an anouncement concerning the Aveiro-Salamanca line , they are begining the studies about the Aveiro-Celorico section (the 100km in the west section of the route) ... the other section has already been prepared/studied/projected a long time ago (it was modernized/rebuilt to 160km/h back in 1996) ...

So we get another 100km of HSR in the planing stages ...

Built/Under construction:
150km Lisboa-Funcheira (lisboa-algarve-andalucia route)
30km C.Branca-Evora (lisboa-madrid "conventional" route)
200km Lisboa-Porto (some sections of the "old" route)
= 380km currently in exploration/use at speeds of 200km/h or above (some sections in construction/upgrading)

In studies/planning stages
300km Lisboa-Porto (the entire "new" route)
60km Lisboa-Porto (some sections of the "old" route)
200km Lisboa-Badajoz (lisboa-madrid "fast"+"conventional" routes) <<< It should have been already in construction but they decided to wait for the national elections :lol:
80km Lisboa-Badajoz (lisboa-madrid "conventional" route)
40km Sines-grandola (likely will became a freight route)
60km Braga-Valença (Porto-vigo "fast" route)
50km Porto-Braga (Porto-vigo "fast" route being upgraded)
180km Aveiro-Celorico + Celorico-VFormoso (Aveiro-Salamanca route)
= 970km of new/upgraded HSR being studied/planned already

Future Projects:
connections to Beja , Faro and Southern spain are still only lines on paper (these will add some 250km more to the HSR network). :cheers:

:ohno:

Cicerón

September 14th, 2009, 08:40 PM

I heard in the news that Portugal could cancel all the HSR projects if the opposition party won the elections... is that true? Do they have any possibility of winning? :(

JMFA

September 18th, 2009, 01:03 PM

it´s true... and yes, they have possibilities to win the coming election... we will soon know, because the election will take place at the end of next week ;)

sotavento

September 29th, 2009, 09:28 AM

Another one bites the dust:

http://aiacirca.apambiente.pt:8980/Public/irc/aia/aiapublico/library?l=/aia2068_velocidade/resumo_no_tcnico&vm=detailed&sb=Title

Nortern section of the "new" Northern Line

Gaia-Oliveira do Bairro section on the Porto-Gaia-Ol.Bairro-Lisboa HSL. :cheers:

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/3245/tgva.jpg

sotavento

October 15th, 2009, 12:04 AM

Just found this picture somewhere (urbanity.es?)

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1098/variantealcacer0401.jpg

hans280

October 15th, 2009, 01:03 PM

^^Beautiful photo, Sotavento, but do we know where it is? It does look like the Tego river valley, of course, but for all I know it could be any river valley anywhere on the Iberic peninsula.

JMFA

October 15th, 2009, 05:34 PM

Nope, it isn´t Tejo river for sure.. theres no rail bridge being built over tejo..
i believe its the "Alcacer do Sal" by-pass, shown on post #44, in an earlier phase. that river over there it´s named Sado.

sotavento

December 12th, 2009, 04:09 AM

1st section awarded ... 160km from the outskirts of lisboa (Poceirão) to the border with spain near badajoz (Caia)

"
Governo adjudica amanhã primeiro troço da Alta Velocidade
O primeiro ministro José Sócrates e o ministro das Obras Pública António Mendonça adjudicam amanhã o primeiro troço de Alta Velocidade, entre o Poceirão e Caia, sendo que o vencedor deverá ser o consórcio da Brisa e Soares da Costa.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alexandra Noronha
anoronha@negocios.pt

O primeiro ministro José Sócrates e o ministro das Obras Pública António Mendonça adjudicam amanhã o primeiro troço de Alta Velocidade, entre o Poceirão e Caia, sendo que o vencedor deverá ser o consórcio da Brisa e Soares da Costa.

Em comunicado, aliás, o Governo já vai dando a entender, quando refere “um investimento de 1,359 mil milhões de euros”, valor que foi apresentado por este consórcio. O Ministério das Obras Públicas adiantou ainda que “a construção será iniciada em 2010, devendo estar concluída no final de 2013”, altura em que se iniciará a operação.

“O objecto desta concessão inclui o projecto, a construção, o financiamento, a manutenção e a disponibilização do conjunto de infra-estruturas ferroviárias do troço Poceirão -Caia, em que também se integra o troço Évora-Caia da linha convencional de mercadorias Sines-Évora-Elvas-Caia e a nova estação de Évora”, de acordo com o mesmo comunicado.
"

in Jornal de Negocios
Sorry , portuguese only ... tomorrow som english sources should surface.

So the only section of the future HSR entwork that will not mirror any existing railway has received a green light already (will so today). :cheers:

Paulo2004

December 15th, 2009, 12:41 AM

It's about time!

sotavento

December 17th, 2009, 04:11 AM

^^Beautiful photo, Sotavento, but do we know where it is? It does look like the Tego river valley, of course, but for all I know it could be any river valley anywhere on the Iberic peninsula.

^^ I hadn't see this post before !!! How stupid of me ...

... not anywhere on the peninsula at all ... it's the same section or railway under construction as in my previous post/quote on top of this page ... it was taken during the earlier stages of construction but it alows us to se a great extention of that particular section (it's 25km long).

This is a section of the Sines-Madrid-France European Uniona designated priority route. :cheers:

In this map (below) is the conection of the southernmost blue sections (actually its the dot in between them) :
http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/4244/image2wx8.jpg

when it is complete there will be a 150km long HSL linking lisboa all the way to the south ... nowadays we have two distinct sections. :cheers:

PokerManAA

May 7th, 2010, 12:02 AM

A new Railways is going to Link Portugal to Spains with a new TGV Line:banana:

http://engenhariacivil.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/tgv-portugal1.jpg

urbanfan89

May 7th, 2010, 04:48 AM

Wouldn't the economic crisis cause this project to be first on the chopping block?

PokerManAA

May 7th, 2010, 05:37 AM

Blue raven I Agree with you me and the rest of the population here in Portugal, but our prime minister is a facist that doesn´t care about anything that people in his country say!:bash:

dumbfword

May 7th, 2010, 05:48 AM

I don't see it happening. With Portugal's credit rating dropping everyday.

Blue raven

May 7th, 2010, 08:09 AM

Better use of the money would be to stop themselves turning into the next Greece. The line can come later.

pai nosso

May 7th, 2010, 10:46 AM

There is already a thread about High Speed Trains in Portugal

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=595078

There are 3 lines planned and 2 more in Project:

Lisboa»»»Madrid (2h45»»640Km[203Km in PT] ) --- planned to 2013 [Price: 2,4 MM€]

The contract of the first sector of the line (Poceirão-Caia [PT-ESP border]) is to be signed tomorrow (08-05-2010) for the price of 1359 Million Euros, and only 92 Million are to be loan by banks.

Maximum speed in portuguese territory is of 350Km/h!

Lisboa»»»Porto (1h15»»»292Km) --- planned to 2017 [Price: 4,5 MM€]

Maximum speed is of 300Km/h!

Porto»»»Vigo (1h»»125Km[100Km in PT]) --- planned to 2017 [Price: 0,845 MM€]

Maximum speed in portuguese territory is of 250Km/h!

Aveiro»»»Salamanca (in project)

Évora»»Faro»»Huelva (in project)

http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae247/painosso/TGV.jpg

Site of the portuguese company responsible for the studies of the project:

www.rave.pt

P.S.: Yes our public counts are a little bad, yes this projects could be postponed for a few years, but our international rating is bad not because of us, but because of the unfounded international speculation!!!

PokerManAA

May 7th, 2010, 12:39 PM

that´s were all our money that we don´t have is going to..........:bash:

thun

May 7th, 2010, 08:41 PM

Hubert Pollak

May 7th, 2010, 11:34 PM

And still the country desperately has to cut public spending. ;) The opposition brought up the issue of infrastructure projects (HSR, Losbons new airport) which would cost huge amounts of money and aren't desperately needed. We'll have to see.

You have to invest in HSR! It's bigger cost now but lower costs for economy in the future. It's one of the ways to create low cost economy (also with investments in green energy, city transport, public bike transport etc.). I thinks it's better way to spend money for HSR not for banks and loans to Greece.

PokerManAA

May 8th, 2010, 12:58 AM

I agrre with you but our prime minister does not.......He just wants to spend all of our money ntill we´re completely dry.........

glamguy

May 9th, 2010, 04:34 AM

Dont let it happen anyways Pokerman.
http://moj.mywapscripts.com/pic.jpg
http://zee.mywapscripts.com/pic.jpg
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http://cool.mywapscripts.com/pic.jpg

thun

May 11th, 2010, 02:43 PM

Still it's quite easy: If you don't have the money, you can't spend it but have to wait for a few years. Where to cut costs finally is a political decision. And it's normally easier to cut in such projects than in health insurance or the retirement system.

sotavento

May 15th, 2010, 04:32 AM

I don't see it happening. With Portugal's credit rating dropping everyday.

What does the "rating" have to do with anything ???

BEFORE those bloodthirsty SOB's started to "create" the rating crisis there WAS ABSOLUTELLY NO PROBLEMS ECONOMIC AT ALL here in portugal. :bash:

NOW WE ARE GETTING into BIGGGER AND BIGGER problems ... all caused BY those ratting lunatics. :nuts:

Wouldn't the economic crisis cause this project to be first on the chopping block?

Why should ANY economic crisis cause the chopping of A MAJOR INTERSTATE corridor improvement ??????

There are 3 railways and 8 major roads (3 are actually highways) in those two corridors ... actually there's not even a DIRECT railway between the portuguese and the spanish capitals (12 million people live in that route)
and the current mainline between lisboa and porto is completelly colapsing due to overuse ...

Better use of the money would be to stop themselves turning into the next Greece. The line can come later.

No ... it's NOW with the STUPID preventive measures (completelly out of sinc with reality) are we going to surpass GREECe ... in a very "high speed" manner ...

For my calculations ... I foresee that due tpo the completelly UNREALISTIC rating depreciations and the complete OVERZEALOUS tax increases (we were already the EU country with the higher tax levels) amd the completelly STUPID cuts in WAGES and other stuff ... the economy will completelly colapse in 5 or 6 months ... tops. ..

The portuguese GDP in the last 5-6 years didn't increase MAINLY because the wages were COMPLETELLY FROZEN ... and they were frozen in extremelly LOW values ... I give you an example:

The stupid Socrates (our PM) as soon as he was elected for the 1st time increased IVA/VAT to 21% (maximum) ... neaby spain is at 15% so we ended up paying 6% more for EVERYTHING.
Public servants neve rsaw A SINGLE raise in their sallary in the last 10/15 years ...
Minimum wages up untill 1992 usually had double digits raises ... since 2005 it's more like 3% ... if any. :nuts:
Last year the SOB Socrates got reelected by a very thin margin (the old lady of the oposing party was a dumber choise)
When he was near elections he choose to "drop" the VAT/IVA to 20% ... no he is raising it again to 21% ... even the minimum VAT/IVA is raising from 5% to 6% ... but he is also cutting benefits and increasing all other taxes.

In the end we got our private economy completelly SACKED and ROBBER ... and at the same time the state corporative machine raises itself and it's "living expanses" to incomportable levels ...

Tax collections more than doubled a couple or years ago (forcefull collections , judicial liquidation of companies and such) ... the following years they are creating their DUMB state budgets BASED not in realistic numbers but in those ODD values ... go figure ... tax collection droped by as much as 60% while the budged doubled ... here goes the skyrocketing deficit. :cheers:

But that doesn't seem to matter to the macro economists ... they just smell blood ... too bad that if theres any blood in portugal ... it surelly must be from our barbecues and all night long partying.

Back to railways ...

Lisboa-Evora-Badajoz-Madrid is mostly track renewalll and upgrades ... the only new section needed is the evora-badajoz wich is missing (never was built) ... if one is to renew 150 yeares old trackage then the best way to do that if to built to the best standards available.

Lisboa Urban transport (comuter rail) carries around 100 million passengers/year ... Porto URban trains carry around 30 million/year.

Lisboa-Porto High Speed Services (called AlfaPendular) carry around 2 million pax/year (some 5000 pax/day) in about 2h20 ... there are tree possible solutions to aleviate the problem:

i) don't do a thing and the line between the two cities (320km long) remains completelly congested
ii) quadruplicate the remaining route (some 60km are quadrupled nowadays)
iii) build a new route (270km long) and remove the 40 HSR Alfa Pendular from the old route
^^ They were going with option ii) but when it reached the 2.000 million €€€ they decided to put an halt to the demential upgrades to the old route (they weren't even quadruplicating the railway)... the new HSL wil cost problemble LESS THAN HALF than what would cost the remaining upgrade of the old route. :dunno::nuts:

And still the country desperately has to cut public spending. ;) The opposition brought up the issue of infrastructure projects (HSR, Losbons new airport) which would cost huge amounts of money and aren't desperately needed. We'll have to see.

No ... not "the country" ... just the STUPID socialist government ...

If you create a state budget thinking with your belly ... you end up messing up ... the are in power since 2005 ... EACH AND EVERY YEAR they have been messing their budgeting. :cheers:

Back on the HSR topic ... both routes are completelly self suficient ... Lisboa-Madrid is a "potential" cash-cow both in terms of passengers and intermodal traffic ... Lisboa-Porto is a "real" cash cow nowadays (it must be one of the only PROFFITING HSR services nowadays). :cheers:

Still it's quite easy: If you don't have the money, you can't spend it but have to wait for a few years. Where to cut costs finally is a political decision. And it's normally easier to cut in such projects than in health insurance or the retirement system.

There's much more gain in financin what little the state must finance in these major infraestructure works than in financing any other major investment ... anyway ... it will be mostly private financing anyway. :cheers:

They spend every year between 500 milllion € and 700 million € in railways here nowadays ... the HSL projects are nothing more than NEW ROUTES built completelly ON BUDGET.

Most losses came not from the transport infraestructure works but from BAD PLANNING and POOR implementation of other sectors of the public investment and expenditure.

Too bad (for us) thar contrary to the recent years the MISSGOVERNMENT this year will reach our pockets ... :nuts:

dumbfword

May 15th, 2010, 05:21 AM

What does the "rating" have to do with anything ???

BEFORE those bloodthirsty SOB's started to "create" the rating crisis there WAS ABSOLUTELLY NO PROBLEMS ECONOMIC AT ALL here in portugal. :bash:

NOW WE ARE GETTING into BIGGGER AND BIGGER problems ... all caused BY those ratting lunatics. :nuts:

Government credit ratings show if/when a country has the ability to payback loans, etc.

Who's gonna build a HSR in a country that can't even cover it's own government debt.

PokerManAA

May 16th, 2010, 03:37 PM

Now the IVA has increased to 23%.........Our prime minister dosen´t have aclue of what he´s doing.......In his Head he´s playing "tropico", I didn´t got my vote in 2005 and neither on 2009.....he is messging up everything........:bash:

sotavento

May 16th, 2010, 09:43 PM

What ???

3000M €€€+ 4500M €€€= 7500M €€€ /40 years

= 187M € /year

REFER spends some 700M€ per year ... at least they have spent such amounts every year in the last 20 years in the "ineficient" upgrades ... :cheers:

Considering that much of those 7500M€ will come not from the state budget but from EU funds and "private" credit (from the companies that won the contracts for the concessions) ...

If they just maintain the current traffic level in that new HSL they will only receive 350M€ in "path-taxes" (in a 40 year long concession/)... about 1/10th of the total construction cost ... but on the other hand ... if you remove the High Speed trains from the OLD "Linha do Norte" you potentially have pathways able to generate as much as 5000M€ (or more) in those same 40 years (and this is just receipts from DIRECT INCOME from running pathways at current prices). :nuts:

The expectable cost of the Lisboa-Porto HSR is 4500M€ :ohno:

They are currently building the 3rd (yes ... the THIRD) highway between Lisboa-Porto ... at current prices in the same 40 years the receipts from the TOLLs in the A1 motorway WILL REACH AT LEAST 17500M€ (or more, based on the traffic volumes in the less congested sections) ...

The potential for COLLECTING TOLLS is over 22500M€ in 40 years , 11250M€ in 20 years or just as low as 5625M€ in 10 years ... TEN years.

Imagine how many people will travell in that 3rd highway 10 years from now ... if you build the HSL and allow people to travel end to end in just 1h15 ...

the one guy who signs the paper claiming that such railway "shouldn't" be built deserves to be put on the stick and burn ... :banana:

sotavento

May 16th, 2010, 09:59 PM

Government credit ratings show if/when a country has the ability to payback loans, etc.

Who's gonna build a HSR in a country that can't even cover it's own government debt.

No ... the dices are fixed ... :nuts:

1) there was never a single time where the portuguese government FAILED to put a pretty good premium into those loan payments ... in fact the portuguese government seems to be very well "rated" where it counts in that sector.

Government debts are one thing ... bad budgeting is another completelly different thing ... that's the difference.

The party in government seems to be a specialist in cutting what doesn't need to be cut (creating problems to others) and missmanaging (a.k.a. indulging in overspending) where their own can reap ... a.k.a. corrupts to the core. :nuts:

There is NO PROBLEM at all in building a new HSL or a new highway ... if it is "tolled" the government doesn't need to pay that much from their own pockets.

A 300km long HSR with 6tph (one each 10 minutes) at current REFER pathway prices pay tolls in excess of 1600M€ in a 40 year long concession* ... the gains from the removal of the AlfaPendular from Northern Line are in themselves enormous (imagine the trains that you can put in their place). :cheers:

back to politics and state finances ... we were doing fine ... the stupid dork (aka Socrates) seems to have the touch of Midas in reverse ... everything that he touches turns into 5h1t. :bash:

PokerManAA

May 17th, 2010, 02:29 PM

José Socrates isn´t worth of trust.......How can anyone here in Portugal lead the example of a man always involved in scandals:bash:
From the fact that he gratuated on a sunday to the "freeport" thing I don´t know wath´s the worst.........Somebody put our country out of misery and take Him out of power.......:banana:

thun

May 17th, 2010, 05:13 PM

Andre_idol

May 18th, 2010, 03:10 AM

that´s were all our money that we don´t have is going to..........:bash:

7 posts bashing people/projects...quite impressive.

sotavento

November 12th, 2010, 03:55 AM

Due to an accident in the old route the near-complete variant had to be put to service one month ahead of schedule.

The catenary masts and all unfinished sections of track had to be assembled overnight. :cheers:

Here are some pictures of the new route under "limited service" (60km/h maximum speed with severe limitations over the main bridge)

Variante de Alcácer (continuação)
Viaduto da Ribeira da Água Cova
http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/5111/img7088m.jpg (http://img844.imageshack.us/i/img7088m.jpg/)
PS sobre o IC1 (Recta de Alcácer a Grândola)
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/3149/img7096c.jpg (http://img517.imageshack.us/i/img7096c.jpg/)
PK 94.5 - Grândola Norte
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7913/img7100m.jpg (http://img6.imageshack.us/i/img7100m.jpg/)
IC 670/671 parado à entrada da variante - Grândola Norte
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/5927/img7102h.jpg (http://img263.imageshack.us/i/img7102h.jpg/)
(C) Vitor Manuel Gomes

IC 570/571 - 1/11/2010
Entrada da variante - Lado Norte (Pinheiro)
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7609/img7064l.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/i/img7064l.jpg/)
Viaduto da Ribeira de São Martinho (Monte Novo)
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/6817/img7068.jpg (http://img232.imageshack.us/i/img7068.jpg/)
Ponte sobre o Rio Sado
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/5043/img7076.jpg (http://img833.imageshack.us/i/img7076.jpg/)

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/6757/img7082i.jpg (http://img232.imageshack.us/i/img7082i.jpg/)
(C) Vitor Manuel Gomes

Já no sentido inverso (Sul - Norte) - IC 672
1-11-2010
Ponte de Alcácer
http://img573.imageshack.us/img573/4343/img7139.jpg (http://img573.imageshack.us/i/img7139.jpg/)
Passagem sobre a Linha do Sul (na parte final da Ponte da Variante)
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/5188/img7141b.jpg (http://img827.imageshack.us/i/img7141b.jpg/)
Viaduto sobre a Ribeira de São Martinho (Monte Novo)
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/1935/img7144r.jpg (http://img824.imageshack.us/i/img7144r.jpg/)
Pinheiro
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/5959/img7147x.jpg (http://img638.imageshack.us/i/img7147x.jpg/)
(C) Vitor Manuel Gomes

Currently the portuguese High Speed Network looks like this:

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/4244/image2wx8.jpg

When things are finished in that section there will be some 130km of continuous 200/220km/h* trackage in the Southern Line. :cheers:

The green section is currently being rebuilt (it's the conventional side of the Lisboa-BadajozMadrid mixed traffic HSL) ... the revised project calls for a speed of 160km/h for conventional trains in a completelly new and electrified trackbed ... 220/250km/h should be possible ... specially if they decide to downgrade from the 350km/h HSL from Evora to Lisboa(that section needs the new 10km long 3rd Bridge over the tagus river to be of any real value/usefulness). :lol:

*) notice: 200km/h = top speed of conventional loco hauled rollingstock , 220km/h = top speed of Alfa Pendular trainsets ... the route is built to speeds of "at least" 250km/h

Coccodrillo

November 12th, 2010, 08:49 AM

Thank you :)

When will the second track be built?

sotavento

November 12th, 2010, 09:25 PM

Strangely enough ... not anytime soon.

Due to the eclectic (to say the least) nature of the traffic using the route they will maintain the old route in operation for a very long long time.

Alfa Pendular will run at 220km/h in the new alignement 2x per day in each direction
Intercity trains will run at 140km/h in the old alignement 3x/4x per day in each direction ... caling at Alcaçer do Sal station(wich is on the old alignement)
Regional trains will run at 120km/h in the old alignement caling at Monte Novo and Alcaçer

Coal trains will run northbound(loaded) in the new alignement ... southbound (empty) in wichever route is available at the time

The general patter will probably be something like this:

If an AP is in the area it get's the new route for itself ... otherwise it's given to the heavier freight trains(coal/copper) ...
If an Ic is in the area then freight trains in the other direction are dumped in the new route ...

:dunno:

^^ welcome to the house of madness wich is called REFER in this neighbourhood. :nuts:

Coccodrillo

November 12th, 2010, 10:33 PM

vmrgomes

November 14th, 2010, 09:26 PM

The new schedule will be at 12-12-2010
AP will pass at new line (Variante de Alcácer).
All ICs stop at Alcácer
The freight trains (coal/copper) will pass at new line except the Somincor Train that goes at actual line because the tecnical station (sand charge) is between Grândola Norte and Vale do Guizo.

Coccodrillo

November 15th, 2010, 10:30 AM

Thank you. How much time do the AP gain running on the Variante instead than via Alcácer?

vmrgomes

November 17th, 2010, 10:44 PM

Actually Alfa Pendular run between Pinheiro to Grândola in 20 minutes. At the middle next month change the schedules and AP crosses the new line and it gains 10 minutes of traject (Pinheiro to Grândola).
The IC trains still the actual line, because its stop at Alcácer do Sal.

sotavento

November 27th, 2010, 12:09 AM

Do IC trains really have to stop at Alcaçer do Sal, a city of only 14.000 inhabitants?

If yes, and of there is no kuch other traffic other 2 AP, 4 IC and some freights, doing this pattern may be a good idea to save the money of the second track.

Intercidades ("Inter city" in portuguese) do actually call at all cities and some major villages in their path ... :dunno:

There are 3 regional and 3 intercity trains in each direction calling at alcaçer ... so it would be very dificult to remove that particular stop.

And that is one of the major problems with the "demential" idea that "pure bred" High speed trains are a good thing in countries with a population similar to the portuguese.

there are more high speed/express passengers here than there are in spain ... preciselly due to the difference of target areas served (here we serve a lot of small comunities and in spain only major metropolis have services).

Biggest long distance transport Hubs in portugal: :lol:

(1 million hab. in the minho metro area) 3x AP Lx-braga 1x IC Lx-guimarães
Braga 180.000 hab
Guimarães 160.000 hab
S.Tirso 1x IC
Trofa 1x IC
Famalicão 135.000 hab.

(1.8 million in the porto metro area)
Campanha(Porto) 216.000 hab 11x AP , 7x IC
Devesas(Gaia) 312.000 hab. 11x AP 7x IC
Espinho 25.000 hab. 2x AP 7x IC
Ovar 58.000hab 3x IC
Estarreja 28.000hab. 2x IC
Aveiro 73.000 hab. 11x AP , 7x IC
Mealhada/Pampilhosa 7x IC + 1x Sud Express (2 neighbouring stations)
Coimbra-B 11x AP , 10x IC , 1x Sud Express
alfarelos 1700 hab. 5x IC
Pombal 60.000 hab. 2x AP , 10x IC , 1x Sud Express
Caxarias/Fatima ~0 hab. (large catolic pilgrimage destination) 7x/5x IC + sud
Entroncamento 21.000 hab. (100.000 in the area) 2x AP , 13x IC + Sud + lusitania
Santarem 65.000 hab. 2x AP , 13x IC

(2,4 million in the lisboa metro area)
V.F.Xira 140.000 hab. 13x IC
Oriente(Lisboa) 11xAP 17x IC + Sud + Lusitania
S.apolonia(Lisboa) 540.000 hab. 9x AP + 13x IC + Sud + lusitania
Entrecampos(Lisboa) 2x AP + 4x IC
Pragal(Almada) +170.000 hab. 4x IC
Pinhal Novo(Palmela) +60.000 hab. 2x AP + 4xIC
Setubal 125.000 hab. 4x IC

Alcaçer 13.354 hab. 4x IC
Grandola 14.000 hab. 4x IC
Funcheira ~0 hab. 4x IC

Tunes 2000 hab. 2x AP + 4xIC (intercity /AP hub to western algarve, services some 500.000 potential passengers)
Albufeira 13.000 hab. 2x AP + 4xIC
Loulé 12.000 hab. 2x AP + 4xIC
Faro 42.000 hab. 2x AP + 4xIC (60.000 in metro area, some aditional 100.000 in eastern algarve , and then spain)

^^ the 650km long atlantic corridor from Braga to Faro.

Add the Intercity connections Pampilhosa-Guarda (Beira alta line) and Entroncamento-C.Branco-Covilhã (Beira baixa line) who serve no major destinations and see where this network manages to gather 5,5 million passengers anually (and with a punctuality index of 99,9%). :ohno:

There are 30 daily departures (AP/Intercity/express) from the Oriente Station (the 5 daily intercity trains to Evora/Beja are supressed until further notice due to the line being cut due to the upgrade/electrification works for the HSL Lisboa-Madrid in the V.Novas-Evora area) ...

so yes ... a small city with only 13.000 people deserves their share of intercity trains. :cheers:

sotavento

November 27th, 2010, 12:19 AM

Thank you. How much time do the AP gain running on the Variante instead than via Alcácer?

That is still to be seen ... the potential to gain a huge amount of time is there.

There's less 7km to deal with (25km vs 32km of the old alignement) and suposedly its 220km/h vs. the old alignement at 100/140km/h (with 60/80km/h restrictions)

I supose that the new section will take only 7 minutes to cross ... so well over 10 minutes can be saved.

Another section where time could be saved is in the Almada-Pinhal Novo section ... if they just reformulated/corrected the entrance of the Fogueteiro station they might even put the entire section at 200/220/250km/h ... :bash:

And that ... would mean that the new TTT wouldn't be needed anytime soon. :cheers:

Given enough cars to Fertagus then it would be easy to aleviate the 25/4 crossing of enough paths for HSR to algarve , Alentejo and Spain.

437.001

December 23rd, 2010, 07:10 PM

traveler

December 25th, 2010, 02:09 PM

Very nice!

pai nosso

December 26th, 2010, 12:30 PM

437.001

December 27th, 2010, 11:38 PM

Yes, it is true. The intentions are to close not the lines but the commuter train service on that lines (in Portuguese: Regionais)!!!

For example, on the line "Abrantes-Torre das Vargens-Marvao Beira" will still continue to circulate the Lusitania Train (Express Lisbon-Madrid)!!!!

And when will that happen?
Is it definitive or temporary?

pai nosso

December 28th, 2010, 11:05 AM

And when will that happen?

Somewhere in 2011 (maybe in the summer)!!!:ohno:

Is it definitive or temporary?

They say it`s temporary....... to be definitive!!!:ohno:

sotavento

March 8th, 2011, 01:52 AM

You're missing out two points: Who guarantees that the line will be "full" for 40 years? And of course, you'll have to pay interest for the investment over a long time, and I'm pretty sure, that that is not included in your calculation.
Another thing: If you need money now to pay back bonds, you simply have to take it from somewhere - and, as I said, it's usually easier to cut from new infrastructure projects (which can be done a few years later as well) as from other sectors.

The two biggest consortiums running for the route concessions are:

a) Brisa ... wich (because its major shareholders are labelled as PSD-sided (a.k.a. oposition) spends most of their time under "socialist government" rebuilding their highway network ... not a single concession was won by Brisa under a Socialist government ... wich means that in the last 15 years they just "collected" thousands of milllions in €€€... and the only way to spend that money was ... rebuild the old network (as if a highway with 20 years was old).

The funniest thing is that while Brisa reaps some 1000 million €€€in proffits EACH AND EVERY YEAR and is not alowed to reinvest in building more highways(or any other kind of infraestructure for that matter) ... the state sponsored SCUT are all bankrupt (free highways that actually cost double per km than Brisa highwayis but that payment comoes directly from the state budget.

b) Mota-engil (a.k.a. ascendi) is the major competitor to Brisa's otherwise monopoly on the highway sector and guess ... has the ex. number two of PS as it's CEO (a good investment by Mr.Antonio Mota wich has no known particular afiliation to the Socialist Party). :bash:

c) Lusoponte is Ther third major player in the infraestructure business here ... they run both actual tejo Crossings (Vasco da Gama and 25 de Abril bridges) and seem to have already filled their safe full of €€€for the third one.

^^ There is no actuall NEED for the state to spend a single €€€ in the HSR/highway networks ... they can be privatelly funded and paid in a relatively short period ... period. :bash:

^^ If you look beyond the misleading oficial numbers you see some major conglomerates reaping INCREASINGLY HIGHER PROFFIT MARGINS as a consequence of the government squeezing the citizens for every dime of taxations that they can get their fat hands on.

i) the government doesn't stop their policies of building new regional hospitals (or other pricey infraestructure) (in PS held municipalities of course) ... even if for that they then close an old hospital in the same municipality ... and there are lot's of (non PS held municipalities) that continue withou hospital ... go figure where the deficit cames from.

ii) they cut the salaries by 5% and increase taxation by 5% ... and then wonder why their own total REVENUE has fallen ... :lol:

iii) theres some 200km of railways being modernized or otherwise built currently here every year ... that level of output puts the HSR network in a simple 4/5year timeframe (800km L network).

:dunno:

^^ The portuguese public debth rise is a consequence of this government absolutelly astonishingly stupid behaviour ... too bad that nobody puts them out of their misery. :nuts:

Who guarantees that the line will be "full" for 40 years?

The route has some 5 million anual passengers nowadays (AlfaPendular + Intercity) ... there are in excess of 200 million €€€ of CLEAN ANUAL REVENUES just from the Lisboa-Porto route ... if one builds the HSR routes (and thus eliminating the bottleneck that is the packed northern line) the potential to double or even triple that yearly value is there.

Lisboa-Madrid alone could be reaping as much as 100 million €€€ just by EXISTING nowadays (the roundabound lusitania tren hotel is a joke and nothing else).

:cheers:

sotavento

March 8th, 2011, 02:18 AM

Hello, I have a question for the Portuguese forumers.
Is it true that CP plans to close the following lines?

-Funcheira-Beja
-Casa Branca-Evora
-Setil-Coruche
-Pinhal Novo-Beja
-Abrantes-Torre das Vargens-Marvao Beira
-Torre das Vargens-Badajoz
-Ermesinde-Leça

Is it true?

It is an information which appeared in Spain in the via libre website.

Not "close the lines" ... "cut the regional passenger service". :cheers:

The trains are old (Allan railcars) and have a very bad modernization put over them that didn't add a single bit of reliability to them ...

Ermesinde-Leça was an half assed atempt at creating a newer comuter route in Porto metropolitan area ... whatever they could have made wrong they did it to their hearts contempt ... yes ... contempt.

Setil-Coruche was another example of something that was meant to be a failure from the start ... another half assed job.

Lisboa-C.branca-Evora/Beja is going to be a new electrical/diesel regional/intercity route ... Lisboa-Evora will use renewed/remodeled UTE2240 units and Evora-C.Branca-Beja will use UDD0450 units as soon as the renovation works are complete.

the Beja-funcheira and Abrantes-Badaojz/Elvas/Marvão routes lack proper rollingstock availability ... so they will probably will be axed as soon as possible and a road haulage service will be maintained for some time (at maximum for the next 10 years or so).

Abrantes-Badajoz can be electrified in the near future ... also C.Branca-Beja-Ourique ... so things are in the grey area there.

Also the Ermesinde/Contumil-Leixões route seems to be under upgrade so the comuter can return to Matosinhos/leixões ... its a wait and see case.

^^ If needs to be said that if things were done properly (As in not doing anyithing possible meant to close them) each of these routes could be viable as a comuter/regional route. :nuts::lol::ohno:

SamuraiBlue

April 7th, 2011, 12:09 PM

In U-turn, Portugal requests EU financial aid (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/04/06/uk-portugal-debt-idUKTRE7355FH20110406)

(Reuters) - Portugal's caretaker government said on Wednesday it had decided to seek financing from the European Union in an abrupt turnaround after resisting a bailout for months despite sharply deteriorating financial conditions.
....

Sorry sotavento, I guess any dreams for high speed rail in Portugal is busted for a very long time.

JoFMO

April 8th, 2011, 12:35 AM

I hope they don't scrap everything.

They should postpone the big bridge for the moment and install a temporary station near Barreiro on the southern side of the Tejo. Finishing the high speed line between Barreiro and Badajoz passes rather flat terrain and is close to unpopulated so I don't think it is too expensive.
All other high speed lines, also the one between Lisbon and Porto can wait for the moment. The Pendolino works very well for the moment.

MK Tom

May 3rd, 2011, 09:17 PM

Coccodrillo

May 3rd, 2011, 10:23 PM

Certainly not before Spain converts some (or, better, all) of its lines until the border.

pai nosso

May 4th, 2011, 10:17 AM

Sorry if this has been asked before but what's the situation with gauges in Portugal at the moment? I know it's all Iberian Gauge right now except for the narrow parts, but are there serious intentions to convert lines to standard gauge in the future?

There is no time table in Portugal!!!

I think that the only thing that is being made is that when a line is repared or constructed, it is prepare for in the future change for a standar gauge!!!

There is a line (Lousã Line » Coimbra Metropolitan Area) that is closed waiting for conversion to a Tram Line and to a standard gauge [Metro Mondego » Mondego Subway]!!

sotavento

August 18th, 2011, 05:28 AM

In U-turn, Portugal requests EU financial aid (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/04/06/uk-portugal-debt-idUKTRE7355FH20110406)

Sorry sotavento, I guess any dreams for high speed rail in Portugal is busted for a very long time.

Erm ... High speed Rail ???

they seem to be running daily since 1998 ???

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4025/4411572178_23391a6a70.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2707/4481412950_f56f281628_b.jpg

http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/9412/img0932g.jpg

^^ Notice that in the right side of the picture they are ACTUALLY building the southern exit of the Lisboa-Madrid HSR nowadays (see below). :lol:

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/3315/p7040739.jpg

But then again ... the REAL PROBLEM in the Lisboa-Madrid HSR is this one:

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/3255/dscn4898.jpg

the railway under the main span of the Tagus bridge was built recently ... in iberic gauge. :ohno:

And this is the terrain that must be crossed by the HSR:

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff84/Pelha/Pelha2/f260fe1f.jpg

It costs as much to build the initial 10km in the lisbon side as it costs to build the other 600km plus all the way to Madrid. :bash:

Sorry if this has been asked before but what's the situation with gauges in Portugal at the moment? I know it's all Iberian Gauge right now except for the narrow parts, but are there serious intentions to convert lines to standard gauge in the future?

See this map ? It's a rough representation of the main tipe of sleepers used in the portuguese network:

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8937/mapaa3maparedetravessa.jpg

RED =
- mainly iberian gauge monoblock concrete sleepers in saneated trackbeds (as in track rebuild from scratch)
- electrification 25kv50Hz
- 180-224 km/h line speed
(notice that 224km/h is only the top speed of the AlfaPendular trainsets and not the lines themselves)
- mostly double tracked (wider lines)

BLUE =
- mainly iberian gauge biblock concrete sleepers on un-saneated trackbeds
- electrified at 25kv50Hz
- 100-140 km/h line speeds (some sections at 160km/h do exist)

BLACK =
- mainly iberian gaugue biblock concrete sleepers
- not electrified (but most are scheduled to be in the near future)

GREEN =
- mainly BI-BITOLA(dual gauge) sleepers ... the last renovated sections are already conversion compatible

PINK =
- lines closed for renovation ... expected to be returned to service with bi-bitola sleepers.

YELLOW =
- projected new routes ... suposedly ALL to be built in UIC gauge

:cheers:

The Algarve line (the southern east-west route) has been upgraded with dual-gauge sleepers ever since they run out of old ex.north line bi-block sleepers. :lol:

The newer Alcacer Variant (The green I) and the Evora line (the green V) have dual-gauge sleepers also (they (re.)opened this year)

It is expected to be extended from Sines to Poceirão and from there to Evora and Badajoz in the near future ... with or without BAILOUTS ... it's just the MAIN iberian international route for whatever this matters ... so it will be built/converted all the way from Sines to the French Border. :nuts:

JoFMO

August 18th, 2011, 09:11 PM

But then again ... the REAL PROBLEM in the Lisboa-Madrid HSR is this one:

I don't think the bridge should be THE problem. Just build the high speed line form the border to somewhere near Vendas Novas and use gauge-convertable Spanish trains over the old Targus bridge.
Madrid-Lisbon would need maybe 3:30 instead of 2:45, but it would still be a vast step forward for Portugals accessibility from Europe.

sotavento

August 18th, 2011, 11:26 PM

Oriente-Entrecampos-Alvito = 15km in a north-south and then east-west direction ... it should be west-east instead and that would have put things on the other margin of the Tagus river already on it's way to Poceirão .

Add another 35km of roundabound route in "margem sul" (astonishingly most of that at 200km/h) and another 15km to get to Poceirão.

Direct route = 10km long 2000 million €€€€ bridge + 20km of "pure bred" 350km/h HSR = ~7/10 minutes of travel time

"Remedeios" route = 65km of not so fast roundabound = ~40 minutes of sightseeing

Poceirão-VendasNovas-Evora = VN-Evora is set at 190km/h for "conventional" rolingstock ... they just decided to NOT give it a 200km/h(or more) just to claim that the neighbouring HSR is needed.

If they decide to apply the same principles of the Alfa Pendular in the Lisboa-Badajoz-Madrid route they just need to build the 68km between Ciladas(north of Evora) and Elvas ... most of the rest is already at 200km/h

Some sections could probably be at some acceptable speed's of 250km/h without that much trouble? since it is mainly the freight route that is of interest being a 200/250/300/350 km/h HSR is not that important ... .

:dunno:

sotavento

August 19th, 2011, 12:22 AM

Preliminary Works in the Oriente station in lisboa

Traincare depot and southern acesses

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/2315/p7040723.jpg

A nortbound prespective of the Oriente station ...

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/9787/76787821.jpg

Recovering the slopes to create the aditional 2 HSR trackbeds and the traincare depot.

A QUADRUPLICAÇÃO DA LINHA DE CINTURA - PARTE 1

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/6449/p7040784.jpg

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