In May 2007, I had a short stay in Port of Prince, capital city of Haiti, and took these pics. Most of them were taken from a moving vehicle, so pardon me for their bad quality.
Coups, clashes, armed robberies, kidnappings, and poverty.
Besides sending peace-keeping troops, what can the world do to help this unfortunate country?

1
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6879/01vd2.jpg
2
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/2594/02dg2.jpg
3
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/6492/03ir6.jpg
4
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/8094/04ev7.jpg
5
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/3748/00fd9.jpg
6
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/3369/93523490lt6.jpg
7
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7240/05jn5.jpg
8
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/1306/06ik9.jpg
9
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8148/07hz8.jpg
10
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/6421/08ql3.jpg
11
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3559/09ip4.jpg
12
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3429/10zv0.jpg
13
http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/1743/11pc4.jpg
14
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/9061/12mn2.jpg
15
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/8231/13nt0.jpg
16
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2585/14ue4.jpg
17
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/4031/15ds6.jpg
18
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5688/16mm4.jpg
19
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/4494/17yc5.jpg
20
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1554/18nv6.jpg
21
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/1306/19fa9.jpg
22
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6585/20iq9.jpg
23
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/264/21vb6.jpg
24
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9084/22gh4.jpg
25
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/8388/23jc6.jpg
26
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5547/24pn6.jpg
27
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/1305/25qb9.jpg
28
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/481/26hb3.jpg
29
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/5689/27fd1.jpg
30. Anti-robbery iron fences can be found everywhere in the city. Inside these stores, cashier's counters are also equipped with these things.
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5346/28re5.jpg
31
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/6609/29rk9.jpg
32
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/5954/30pt7.jpg
33. The President's office. Also called the Little White House.
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1912/31gm9.jpg
34
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/5418/32gc9.jpg
35
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/1413/33yl1.jpg
36
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/7207/34yq7.jpg
37
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/1126/35tb4.jpg

The second day I was in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, a place not too far from Haiti. A totally different world.
What can we say?
38
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4083/p5300507dr6.jpg
39
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/8427/p5290417ai8.jpg

Why are all Black dominated societies so unfortunate? I find it quite strange whether its from the Carribeans or Africa.

The USA should do something about this poor unfortunate land...instead of spending trillions on wars and inciting terrorists.

Basic water treatment plants , re-forestation, urban infrastructure , schools , hospitals. A mere 50 billion will do fine.....that's one month's worth of war mongering.

Why are all Black dominated societies so unfortunate? I find it quite strange whether its from the Carribeans or Africa.


What an ignorant statement. Maybe you should learn a little history before commenting. Taken from the 'Travel Haiti' website:

"By the mid-eighteenth century, a territory largely neglected under Spanish rule had become the richest and most coveted colony in the Western Hemisphere. By the eve of the French Revolution, Saint-Domingue produced about 60 percent of the world's coffee and about 40 percent of the sugar imported by France and Britain. Saint-Domingue played a pivotal role in the French economy, accounting for almost two-thirds of French commercial interests abroad and about 40 percent of foreign trade. The system that provided such largess to the mother country, such luxury to planters, and so many jobs in France had a fatal flaw, however. That flaw was slavery. "

" For over 100 years the colony of St. Domingue (known as the Pearl of the Antilles) was France's most important overseas territory, which supplied it with sugar, rum, coffee and cotton. At the height of slavery, near the end of the 18th century, some 500,000 people mainly of western African origin, were enslaved by the French."

Basically France got rich off of Haitian slaves. When finally the slaves formed a successful rebellion, Haiti became the first free Black Republic in the world.
The rest of the world, however viewed the nation as a threat and refused to recognise it as a Republic, therefore refusing it trade.

In short Haiti has been raped over and over again starting with the native slaves, and continuing with the African slaves. The seeds of those days are still being sown today.

Read more for yourself:http://http://www.discoverhaiti.com/history_summary.htm

I can't believe that's here in the Western Hemishere... Looks like something you'd see in Africa.

The USA should do something about this poor unfortunate land...instead of spending trillions on wars and inciting terrorists.

Basic water treatment plants , re-forestation, urban infrastructure , schools , hospitals. A mere 50 billion will do fine.....that's one month's worth of war mongering.

I think it's more France's problem than anything else. Haiti's then president Aristide " launched a vigorous campaign last year(2004) for Haiti to be given back $20 billion, the equivalent of 90 million gold francs they paid to France in reparations in 1825, more than 200 years after the country gained independence. "

Needless to say Aristide failed,Some people believe that is why that President was forced into exile.

BTW thanks Autumn river for those eye opening pics. I myself am half Hatian and have never been there. If you have any more photos please post them.

Originally Posted by Vanman
BTW thanks Autumn river for those eye opening pics. I myself am half Hatian and have never been there. If you have any more photos please post them.

Nice to meet you on the forum.
We really wish Haitians a better life.
Of course I will post more pics. Give me some time.

Thanks for the pics. I'm Haitian and have been there a few times, but I never spend too much time in Port-au-Prince (but I do remember it wasn't all abysmally poor like most of the pics).

Next time go to Jacmel on the southern coast. It's beautiful there.

why were you down there?

So sad how alot of Haitians have to live. It the country had is act toguether, Haiti could be a tourist paradise. Bringing alot of jobs to the locals. It is in a great location in the Caribean with a nice landscape and is very close to the USA.

I don't know what to say. Like most people that have seen this thread, I have mixed feelings.

I would just like to illustrate that, although Haiti is a very poor nation that needs a major overhaul, not everywhere looks like this.

Although the pics above are a reality, it is undoubtedly a misrepresentation of the whole country

There are many non-dirty/grimey areas of Haiti (especially outside of the capital):

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6084/010jr.jpg

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/2431/haiti108nq.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/6669/b25hp7.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/6817/b26zv0.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/1680/b44uf9.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/7443/b31we1.jpg

http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/3982/caphaitian7rw.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/1358/b34nt8.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/6025/b46gr0.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/782/b50gp3.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/8427/b53nk6.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9163/b54tg2.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/7052/b60no0.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/1657/b61pd2.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/2133/b65ll4.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/3929/b66ky9.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/4012/haiti11rg6.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/6411/jeremiebp6.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/8351/jeremie2ie5.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/2669/jeremie3kb9.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/1976/jeremie4km9.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/5070/papuc7.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/976/portauprince5qd6.jpg

And of course Haiti is full of beautiful countryside an beaches



http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/5503/b203dm.jpg

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/5198/b273dn.jpg

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/8067/b287ih.jpg

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/241/b240yn.jpg

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3531/b399pj.jpg

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/2978/haiti42mw.jpg

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3125/labadiebch1xz.jpg

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/5477/b216km.jpg

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/7339/labadeeab8.png

The USA should do something about this poor unfortunate land...instead of spending trillions on wars and inciting terrorists.

Basic water treatment plants , re-forestation, urban infrastructure , schools , hospitals. A mere 50 billion will do fine.....that's one month's worth of war mongering.

FRANCE should!

Too bad Haiti's situation, having such an amazing landscape and proximity to the U.S, i hope things get better for them.

Amazing pictures. It is a shame that the problems still exist. However, I would not point fingers at the USA helping. All countries should be helping.

What an ignorant statement. Maybe you should learn a little history before commenting.

Why if it's true?

Plus the Prime Minister has to be black-thats what their constitution says

Wow,what an eyesore, hopefully a massive hurricane will cleanse that land this season.

Wow,what an eyesore, hopefully a massive hurricane will cleanse that land this season.

An English writer by the name of John Milton once said...“The mind can make a heaven out of hell or a hell out of heaven”

I see beauty in SOME of those pictures i found the full of life and hope, it matters NOT where a person is born,but who they chose to be.

The best things in life ARE truly free.,i still see children playing in the streets in those pictures and a beautiful sky and a green lush island and that gives me hope.

We are all human regardless of color or wealth.

I would prefer to stand in the eye of the hurricane with this people,then to be in the company of a narrow minded hypocrite that places value of a nation on its economic wealth.

Some of those pictures even reminds me of poor ¨colonias¨in my city wich i love is like been in love with a ugly woman.

Poor COLONIAS in my City of Tijuana Mexico.

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/3576/144415497a1bd7d5044boc3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Shot at 2007-07-05

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/426/116230189023dd96180odl8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Shot with FinePix S3000 (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=FinePix+S3000&make=FUJIFILM) at 2007-07-05

The biggest peoblem in Haiti is probably the crime. Instead of working together for a better future, people just steal from their brothers. This is a place were a strong islam or christian regime would be usefull.

hey those colonias arent THAT UGLY AT ALL!!! reminds me of where i used to live in el salvador and i thought it wasnt ugly...as long as the streets arent full of garbage!

I think these images and the way they are presented are meant to pornographize a little bit Haiti's poverty. Of course the poverty is a very real problem (it is the poorest country in the Americas, and exteremly unstable), but taking photos on the outskirts of a market, where trash is always piled, also here in the middle east, gives an extreme impression that doesn't neccesarily represent the country.

Hillside favellas such as the ones shown, are common throughout the world, perhaps when one travels out of the U.S. to Haiti one feels that it's absolute hell, but I've seen favellas in every country to which I traveled recently: Palestinian refugee camps on the outskirts of Amman, Jordan, and of cities in the West Bank, Gypsy neighborhoods in Bulgaria and Turkey, roadside slums in Colombo, Sri Lanka.

Hell, there are even favellas in the U.S. itself, in Texas border cities, for example. Others were abundantly visible to me from a train making its way across southern Mississippi and Louisiana in 2005, then were wiped out by Katrina. In short, this is unfortunately what much of the world looks like, and yet I wouldn't preceed every thread in this forum with a warning of unpleasentness, as if a horror film was involved.

.

I think these images and the way they are presented are meant to pornographize a little bit Haiti's poverty. Of course the poverty is a very real problem (it is the poorest country in the Americas, and exteremly unstable), but taking photos on the outskirts of a market, where trash is always piled, also here in the middle east, gives an extreme impression that doesn't neccesarily represent the country.

Hillside favellas such as the ones shown, are common throughout the world, perhaps when one travels out of the U.S. to Haiti one feels that it's absolute hell, but I've seen favellas in every country to which I traveled recently: Palestinian refugee camps on the outskirts of Amman, Jordan, and of cities in the West Bank, Gypsy neighborhoods in Bulgaria and Turkey, roadside slums in Colombo, Sri Lanka.

Hell, there are even favellas in the U.S. itself, in Texas border cities, for example. Others were abundantly visible to me from a train making its way across southern Mississippi and Louisiana in 2005, then were wiped out by Katrina. In short, this is unfortunately what much of the world looks like, and yet I wouldn't preceed every thread in this forum with a warning of unpleasentness, as if a horror film was involved.

.


Well, it depends where you come from and also from what angle you see it. Yes, there are shantytowns in more countries than not, but the mysery here goes beyond shantytowns...way way beyond it, in my opinion. The simple fact that there is no escape other than escaping the country itself is so sad. In many countries, even those that are not categorized as developed, there is more of an exit to this mysery, while still remaining there. But in Haiti, it looks like hell. But again, it is true that these conditions exist in many more places than Haiti, It's just hard to believe for some of us that this extreme can exist, and that it is not this myserable-looking in the Dominican Republic, a neighboring country on the same island, or even Cuba, a Cuba has its troubles!

at least the poverty in most other countires isn't THAT dehumanizing to such a large proportion of the people. take those hillside "favela" pics in mexico. now, that might be poverty to people in developed countries, but its not as worse or ugly as the poverty elsewhere. at least i dont see garbage piled up in the hill and the people obviously have enough money to give their house some paint, making the neighborhood not bad looking at all.

Thanks. Impressive photo tour of another side of 'urban'. Sure, not the whole country is probably like that.

Strange...Some pictures look like India ..

Wow,what an eyesore, hopefully a massive hurricane will cleanse that land this season.

Hopefully a hurricane hits whatever city you are from, while the place looks incredibly shitty its a circumstance they have a problem dealing with. Hopefully some kind of change can happen in Haiti it would be a beautiful place if it had some stability and like someone said if we put Iraq money into this place then it would be booming and we'd actually make money not lose since Iraq is fucked.

Hopefully a hurricane hits whatever city you are from, while the place looks incredibly shitty its a circumstance they have a problem dealing with. Hopefully some kind of change can happen in Haiti it would be a beautiful place if it had some stability and like someone said if we put Iraq money into this place then it would be booming and we'd actually make money not lose since Iraq is fucked.


I think it would be nice if a hurricane would come to Phoenix,we could use the rain.


And money can't make those people smarter so that they can build a better society.

I think it would be nice if a hurricane would come to Phoenix,we could use the rain.


And money can't make those people smarter so that they can build a better society.


I am a poor man, but I have this consolation: I am poor by accident, not by design since god made all of us and he does not make inferior humans.

I thank fate for having made me born poor. Poverty taught me the true value of the gifts that life gives on a daily basis,been poor is no shame, but being ashamed of it, is.

It is true that most of the times poverty is harsh and sometimes it could deprive a man from his will and spirit,but wen a man conquers this adversity then he knows that nothing is imposible,you see my friend a poor man is not a man with out a penny,but a true poor man is the one that dosent have a dream.

Chessy Bob,learning from past experiences rain will NOT vanish the stupid,ignorant people,a clear example is that you my friend survive the great flood and im shure you were not in Noahs arc.




¨Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable¨

Michel Eyquem de Montaigne (1533-1592) French philosopher and essayist

Cheesy Bob, your views are deeply unlearned. I hope life teaches you a thing or two about what natural disasters really are like and what really leads societies to povery and instability. Centuries of abuse by colonial powers and tyrants supported by ex-colonial powers would do to paralize a society.

in other words, I hope the hurricane that hits phoenix and and knocks you against a tree so that you are paralized and unable to work again will also take with it your deep arrogance.

.

Why if it's true?

Plus the Prime Minister has to be black-thats what their constitution says

Probably because it isn't true. The Bahamas and Barbados (both over 85% black) have the third and fourth highest per capita GDP in the Americas, respectively.

And here are the UNHDI numbers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#endnote_2

31. Barbados 0.879
52. Bahamas 0.825


The Bahamas is a stable, developing nation with an economy heavily dependent on tourism and offshore banking. Tourism together with tourism-driven construction and manufacturing accounts for approximately 60% of GDP and directly or indirectly employs half of the archipelago's labor force. Steady growth in tourism receipts and a boom in construction of new hotels, resorts, and residences had led to solid GDP growth in recent years, but the slowdown in the US economy and the attacks of 11 September 2001 held back growth in these sectors in 2001-03. The current government has presided over a period of economic recovery and an upturn in large-scale private sector investments in tourism.

Back to the topic of Haiti: it is terribly unfortunate that these pictures represent the reality of life for the average Haitian.

Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere, with 80% of the population living under the poverty line and 54% in abject poverty.

Haiti is poorer than many African countries. I wonder what would have happened if the US, UK, Australia, Japan and others had spent USD$300 billion + on reconstructing the poorer countries in their backyards rather than waging warfare in Iraq? Or if France, Germany, Russia, China, Canada, New Zealand and other persistent critics of the US, UK, Australia and Japan stepped up to the plate and truly helped advance democracy and development in a Least Developed Country rather than criticise from the sidelines? Of course I do not expect any country to do these things, because humanity is not as noble as we like to think of ourselves.

Back to the topic of Haiti: it is terribly unfortunate that these pictures represent the reality of life for the average Haitian.


Once again, I've spent numerous summers in this country (my family is Haitian); the extreme flith of the OP's pics DON'T represent the reality of life for the average Haitian.






I think these images and the way they are presented are meant to pornographize a little bit Haiti's poverty. Of course the poverty is a very real problem (it is the poorest country in the Americas, and exteremly unstable), but taking photos on the outskirts of a market, where trash is always piled, also here in the middle east, gives an extreme impression that doesn't neccesarily represent the country.


Thanks. Impressive photo tour of another side of 'urban'. Sure, not the whole country is probably like that.

Thanks to you two for seeing the light.

As I said on the first page, this is not to say that places such as those presented in the OP's post don't exist in Haiti or tht Haiti doesn't have a massive problem of blight, but the premise of the thread seems to be to show what "Haiti" is like. The OP simply chose the worst pictures to post (or he only went to the worst areas) to elicit emotion in viewers.

I assure you, not all of Haiti looks like this.

Looks horrible. What can I say...

It's just like a bit of Africa in the Western Hemishphere! :ohno:

feel sorry for the people who living there

An English writer by the name of John Milton once said...“The mind can make a heaven out of hell or a hell out of heaven”

I see beauty in SOME of those pictures i found the full of life and hope, it matters NOT where a person is born,but who they chose to be.

The best things in life ARE truly free.,i still see children playing in the streets in those pictures and a beautiful sky and a green lush island and that gives me hope.

We are all human regardless of color or wealth.

I would prefer to stand in the eye of the hurricane with this people,then to be in the company of a narrow minded hypocrite that places value of a nation on its economic wealth.

Some of those pictures even reminds me of poor ¨colonias¨in my city wich i love is like been in love with a ugly woman.

Poor COLONIAS in my City of Tijuana Mexico.

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/3576/144415497a1bd7d5044boc3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Shot at 2007-07-05

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/426/116230189023dd96180odl8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Shot with FinePix S3000 (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=FinePix+S3000&make=FUJIFILM) at 2007-07-05
Those don't look so bad. At least they've got them painted and look relatively taken care of. Frankly this looks 10 times better than some of the pics of Haiti in this thread.

But again, it is true that these conditions exist in many more places than Haiti, It's just hard to believe for some of us that this extreme can exist, and that it is not this myserable-looking in the Dominican Republic, a neighboring country on the same island, or even Cuba, a Cuba has its troubles!

I was in Dominican Rep and it's completely different to Haiti and several times most developed.

It is sad to see such a place where people lived in. Of course they are some nice places in Haidi, but how many people will live in those peaceful and clean places if crime and fighting won't stop in the country?

Those don't look so bad. At least they've got them painted and look relatively taken care of. Frankly this looks 10 times better than some of the pics of Haiti in this thread.

Certainly not the ones I posted. The ones I posted are much more representative of what Haiti looks like on average.

oh well though, I'll stop now, because no matter what I say the image of Haiti will always be of crime-ridden filth. Haiti certainly has that, but that is not the norm.

^^
Just feel free to post them. Pictures are the most persuasive fact about a country. It would be better if you give a brief description.

Thanks for all your replies.
Sorry, I’ve been busy these days, and had no time to view new posts in this thread. Now I have some time.
Now, to tell you the truth:
I was on a business trip to the city, to answer one of your questions.
Pics 1 to 21 were taken in a huge slum in Port of Prince, and represent the BAD side of the city. Actually I saw scenes even worse than these: tall, long-ranging garbage hills; but it was inconvenient for me to take a pic of them, because they were on the other side of the vehicle.
Pics 22 to 32 were taken in common streets, and reflect AVERAGE livelihood in the city.
Pics 34 and 35 were taken in the BEST hotel of the city.
Pics 36 and 37 show the skyline of the city, if there is a skyline.
Up hills I found some NICE houses, but failed to take a shot, because they were all hidden behind tall walls and barbed wires. As I learned, many rich people have fled the country due to instability.

Now, more pics, which were taken in common streets, and reflect AVERAGE or average-up livelihood in the city.
40
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/5010/01eb3.jpg
41
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/8872/02kc5.jpg
42
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/9594/06km6.jpg
43
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/6315/08zl5.jpg
44
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/781/03ft8.jpg
45
http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/4678/04iy5.jpg
46
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/4116/05do5.jpg
47
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/8069/07vb8.jpg
48
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4026/09be2.jpg
49
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/1043/10rj2.jpg
50. This is of course a nice house.
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3851/11wr2.jpg
51
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/3936/12nx3.jpg
52
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/828/13bu9.jpg
53
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/236/14kp8.jpg
54
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/858/15pi2.jpg
55
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/866/16fm2.jpg
56
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/7168/11970972qs6.jpg
57
http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/2721/55258921un7.jpg
58
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/7964/38645396bw3.jpg
59. City centre
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/117/17cd4.jpg
60
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/3986/19td4.jpg
61
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8476/24zi6.jpg

The USA should do something about this poor unfortunate land...instead of spending trillions on wars and inciting terrorists.

Basic water treatment plants , re-forestation, urban infrastructure , schools , hospitals. A mere 50 billion will do fine.....that's one month's worth of war mongering.

in this situation I would say this would be the right thing to do..
these people need proper shelter and water-immediately.
our national debt situation is just ABSURD.
(and going up by the minute, helping Iraq to become a strong ALLY of the u.s....bordering Iran)

on the other hand, the u.s. administration could not give 2 shits what we think. we voted them in...that should be a lesson learned.

Obama, theres a guy you could actually approach about Haiti and he would be genuine in his feelings.

btw..I have a lot of haitian friends and it really disturbs me to see their country like this. I can only imagine how the people feel...where do they even begin to start government and law enforcement, when people are too impoverished to contribute????

Its hard to believe a country like this is found in the Western Hemisphere.

Thank you autumnriver for showing the more average and more livable sides of port-au-prince (It's even better in cities outside the capital).

What an ignorant statement. Maybe you should learn a little history before commenting.

Don't blame me for being ignorant not everyone has to know the history of EVERY single country in the world especially small ones.

What I said is true. Most Black dominated societies ARE unfortunate, and don't blame it on slavery as it ended long time ago. Most countries or societies managed to pull themselves out of misery in 30-50 year time frame.

One may call me whatever they want. The fact is, I was born in South Africa and since moved to Australia because the country has gone to hell.

Every black society around the world is an absolute failure. Call me what you may but the simple truth is. Blacks, blame everyone else, over slavery, racism, colonialism etc etc when they should say "that is the past it is time to move on." It is not the US or Japan or Australia’s role to bail out these waste cases and the problems in Sudan or Rwanda testify to this.

Look at Asia e.g. Singapore, the Asian mentality is, "Right, let's get educated, and let's stop blaming others for our woes and start blaming ourselves. Once this is fixed we can get on with moving forward."

Black societies, even in America are poorer and worse off, yet have all the opportunities in the world. A recent trip to the States was appalling in the hundreds of homeless blacks with an empty cup begging for money. Pathetic!, I didn’t see one Indian or Asian the were too busy working their ass off.

A tribal or gangland nature where an individual would rather look good and lose than look bad and win, how many blacks are more interested in music and sports compared to maths or a university education not based on sport scholarships? America is littered with people having nothing more than hunger for a better life coming from nothing and making a huge success. Just look at the Italians, Irish, Jews, Indians, Persians the list goes on and on. Blacks barely even make the billionaire list despite being almost 30% of the population. Those that do almost always come from sports or entertainment not sheer hard work of starting a business and contributing to society through employment and skill.

Blacks also have little disregard for human life, look at the crime in black societies, where life is worth nothing. Even in Australia the aboriginals commit far more crime and violent crime than the general per capita population.

Unfortunately in Western societies today you are worse being called a racist than if you are called a paedophile. In South Africa there are jobs advertised as black only or affirmative action whereby no whites will get the job. Already they are passing students in schools and university who don’t make the grade which will only lead to that country becoming a future “African Basket case”

Look at Zimbabwe and how a prosperous country was taken over by a gang leader, a thug and a classic example of what black societies are, around the world.

So go ahead write your socks off about how racist I am, go and ban me! Yet what I write is true one only need to look at ANY black society around the world so all you bleeding heart libertarians and lefties keep ignoring the problem and it wil remain. Until blacks can get their own lives together, the longer their cities, health and civilisation will remain in the dark ages like the above photos show. Man may have evolved from Africa but he certainly never evolved in Africa!

Haiti has a proud history, the first slave colony to throw of the shackles of colonialism. Inspired by the same promises of egalitarianism and freedom that rung in the ears of their French contemporaries across the Atlantic, they gained liberation. It is a shame that the same bigotry and racism, that had lead to enslavement, had to reappear so quickly, to turn Haiti into a pariah nation for so long.

What to do? - well it was seem obvious that cancellation of the country's debt would be a first step. Nearly half of the country's $1.3 billion dollar debt was accrued by the former president Duvalier over 29 years to finance his lavish lifestyle. A debt relief program from the IMF will go ahead, but not until 2009, during which time another $138 million dollars will have to paid by Haiti, money that should be going to social and infrastructure projects.

Secondly, Haiti's economy is 70% agriculture. Unfortunately, poor farming techniques in this tropical region and overpopulation has lead to vast deforestation resulting in severe desertification. The remaining soil has been washed of nutrients, and the water table has lowered as natural water traps have been destroyed. Unemployment has now reached 50% and naturally the young unemployed men have moved to the city. Show me any place in the world, which can have 50% unemployment and not have crime, - and I'll show you a unicorn. Money should be invested in education programs, equipment and new farming techniques to restore the land's fecundity.
Such projects have proved successful in Costa Rica, where supervised land management and protection of remaining forest has increased farming yields significantly, whilst still being sustainable. .

Thanks for these photos, everyone - of course every country has more than one side to it. I'm glad to have seen a little bit of Haiti here.
However, to dismiss these problems, with the same specious arguments, and endless platitudes about race and personal responsibility, means that they are just going to keep happening over and over and over again.

BTW, most of Zimbabwe's economic growth took place during the 80's, after the fall of the White dominated government of Ian Smith. It is lamentable to see the country fall under totalitarianism and hardship again, but surely, it is not only African nations that have suffered from such problems?
Did it not take Europe 500 years to leave the backwardness and warfare of the Middle Ages?

wow; pictures like those are probably my favorite....the condition of that area in the first few picture are absolutl unbearable and inhumane. i=ashfoafoihflksdlkfsldfsdifosdf. : (

in this situation I would say this would be the right thing to do..
these people need proper shelter and water-immediately.
our national debt situation is just ABSURD.
(and going up by the minute, helping Iraq to become a strong ALLY of the u.s....bordering Iran)

on the other hand, the u.s. administration could not give 2 shits what we think. we voted them in...that should be a lesson learned.

Obama, theres a guy you could actually approach about Haiti and he would be genuine in his feelings.

I agree with this statement %100

One may call me whatever they want. The fact is, I was born in South Africa and since moved to Australia because the country has gone to hell.

Every black society around the world is an absolute failure. Call me what you may but the simple truth is. Blacks, blame everyone else, over slavery, racism, colonialism etc etc when they should say "that is the past it is time to move on." It is not the US or Japan or Australia’s role to bail out these waste cases and the problems in Sudan or Rwanda testify to this.

Look at Asia e.g. Singapore, the Asian mentality is, "Right, let's get educated, and let's stop blaming others for our woes and start blaming ourselves. Once this is fixed we can get on with moving forward."

Black societies, even in America are poorer and worse off, yet have all the opportunities in the world. A recent trip to the States was appalling in the hundreds of homeless blacks with an empty cup begging for money. Pathetic!, I didn’t see one Indian or Asian the were too busy working their ass off.

A tribal or gangland nature where an individual would rather look good and lose than look bad and win, how many blacks are more interested in music and sports compared to maths or a university education not based on sport scholarships? America is littered with people having nothing more than hunger for a better life coming from nothing and making a huge success. Just look at the Italians, Irish, Jews, Indians, Persians the list goes on and on. Blacks barely even make the billionaire list despite being almost 30% of the population. Those that do almost always come from sports or entertainment not sheer hard work of starting a business and contributing to society through employment and skill.

Blacks also have little disregard for human life, look at the crime in black societies, where life is worth nothing. Even in Australia the aboriginals commit far more crime and violent crime than the general per capita population.

Unfortunately in Western societies today you are worse being called a racist than if you are called a paedophile. In South Africa there are jobs advertised as black only or affirmative action whereby no whites will get the job. Already they are passing students in schools and university who don’t make the grade which will only lead to that country becoming a future “African Basket case”

Look at Zimbabwe and how a prosperous country was taken over by a gang leader, a thug and a classic example of what black societies are, around the world.

So go ahead write your socks off about how racist I am, go and ban me! Yet what I write is true one only need to look at ANY black society around the world so all you bleeding heart libertarians and lefties keep ignoring the problem and it wil remain. Until blacks can get their own lives together, the longer their cities, health and civilisation will remain in the dark ages like the above photos show. Man may have evolved from Africa but he certainly never evolved in Africa!

I understand both of you that in the big picture Black ruled societys have NOT been succesfull, and im will not judge you or brand you as a racist,they are valid questions and you have valid points.

But the question still remains WHY? are they not succesfull or even moving foward?

I truly do not belive its because they are inferior or less inteligent or that race accounts for that, wen i lived in Beverly Hills CA, i knew some fine,very inteligent Black individuals that really set them self appart from other black people from other parts of Los Angeles,and from my own experiance i came to belive that it was just they way they were brought up.
There parents,education and sorroundings really play a decisive role in the end result of each individual and there impact on society.

A person either Black,White,Brown or Yellow that lives in a Ghetto or poor war stricken society will mostly turn out to be a poorly educated person that with little or no way of making a decent living will turn in to mostly criminal or negative activities for him available in those same places to achive hes goal of a supposed succesfull life.

The only reall way out for any country or individual to prosper and have a succesfull society is education.

Thank You.

Marco A. Camacho Presichi

Marco,

Yes I think you have a valid point. Growing up in South Africa there were blacks, just like today who rise above. I don't for one second think it is that they are an inferior race.

What I do think is that their culture prevents a society. It lacks harmony, and while they still blame others for their ills. well they will not move forward.

We have to be idiots to cancel their debt!

In Australia our prime minister, flew in a very old 707 for years, while driving a run of the mill car. Australia is one of he richest countries on earth. In Africa we will cancel the debt and as you may have seen, these rulers will go out and buy fleets of Mercedes and Lear jets! This is just like the music videos that idolise black culture of one individual with gold and cars and woman at the expense of any of their society/community. How many rappers with lots of money today will be begging in 25 years?

No way would we cancel debt, western countries aren't that stupid.

BTW in response to Zimbabwe, the wealth came from the white farmers not the government's steps in the 80's it was the government's steps in the 2000's (by taking away the white farms) that has killed the country.

Comparing black societies now to the middle ages shows you are not well read or lack any knowledge of history. While there were many small city states the ability to trade and grow for a common good eventually led to the age of exploration and renaissance (remember Europe had no inspiration). With all the communication and ability to see the results of places like Thailand, China and Indonesia, Africa should have a few countries making progress and apart from Botswana the African representatives still can't get their act together.

Ask yourself these 2 simple questions:

Why even in western countries are black areas dirtier, decaying and rundown when similar poor white areas are cleaner with people who can have pride and hope in their lives?

Why can a black person or woman walk down almost any neighbourhood without feeling threatened, while a white person walking through even a moderately safe black neighbourhood has to be fearful?

Haiti doesn't look very bad, no?

^ Wow Twingo, I'm really trying to hold back my anger right now. You clearly know how to speak fluently out of your ass.

First of all you are buying way too much into the media. Just because you see black people and gangsters with gold chains and gats in music videos or movies doesn't mean that the majority of people actually live like that. If that is your perception of reality wake up, cause you are a retard! Should I assume that all white people only live for sex drugs and rock and roll cause that's what MTV tells me? Or how bout all the violent classic mobster movies? What about all the corporate corruption(think white CEOs) that has taken place in recent years. Gee, I guess all white people are violent corrupt drug addicted mobsters. I guess the major difference between me and you is that I'm not an idiot, or a racist for that matter.

Why even in western countries are black areas dirtier, decaying and rundown when similar poor white areas are cleaner with people who can have pride and hope in their lives?


If you are referring to Amercica have you ever heard of a term called racial SEGREGATION? Enlighten yourself:
The FHA was operated in a racially discriminatory manner since its inception in 1937 and set itself up as the "protector of all white neighborhoods," using its field agents to "keep Negroes and other minorities from buying houses in white neighborhoods."[21] Evidence also indicates that the federal government used interstate highway and urban renewal programs to segregate those blacks that had previously lived in more racially diverse communities.[22] Conse quently, these schemes increased the concentration of poverty where it has festered ever since and has caused the federal government to be labeled as "most influential in creating and maintaining residential segregation."[23]




What I do think is that their culture prevents a society. It lacks harmony, and while they still blame others for their ills. well they will not move forward.


If this statement is not racist I don't know what is.

We have to be idiots to cancel their debt!

Guess what? You are an idiot! You've already proven that.

Ask yourself this question: Is it ethically and morally correct for wealthy countries, who's empires were built on the backs of slavery to deny financial aid and debt relief to the very nations in which they enslaved or helped impoverish?

One may call me whatever they want. The fact is, I was born in South Africa and since moved to Australia because the country has gone to hell.

You're a saffie?

That explains it at least partially.

Every black society around the world is an absolute failure. Call me what you may but the simple truth is. Blacks, blame everyone else, over slavery, racism, colonialism etc etc when they should say "that is the past it is time to move on." It is not the US or Japan or Australia’s role to bail out these waste cases and the problems in Sudan or Rwanda testify to this.

You're sure about that?

I tend to measure major improvements based on the Human development index, the most reliable standard of any nations standard of living available.

Looking at that...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

In the "high" category I find Barbados, The Seychelles, St. Kitts and Nevis, The bahamas, trinidad and Tobago, and antigua and barbuda.

In terms of their living standards, they finish ahead of nations like Russia. Barbaods is only slightly behind portugal.

Do you really think that classifies a failure?

Going even further down the list-Dominica, St. Lucia, St. Vincent on the Grenadines, Jamaica, grenada...all are in the medium category, right alongside nations like Turkey(considered by some to be a future economic powerhouse). They aren't failures by any standard.

Haiti is really the only nation in the caribbean that could actually be classified as "a failure".

Before you go and classify Jamaica and all those other natins as failures, let me bring you back to prior HDI statistics. I've obtained the measurements for South Africa PRIOR to 1994-during apartheid. guess what I found?

SA's levels of human development have always been directly on par(not even surpassing) the levels realized by black nations like Jamaica.

http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statisti...ty_ds_JAM.html

HDI by year

Jamaica:

Human development index, 1975 0.687
Human development index, 1980 0.695
Human development index, 1985 0.699
Human development index, 1990 0.719
Human development index, 1995 0.725
Human development index, 2000 0.737
Human development index, 2004 0.724

http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statistics/countries/data_sheets/cty_ds_ZAF.html

South Africa:

Human development index, 1975 0.653
Human development index, 1980 0.673
Human development index, 1985 0.703
Human development index, 1990 0.735
Human development index, 1995 0.741
Human development index, 2000 0.691
Human development index, 2004 0.653

South Africa, even prior to 1994, has never actually been much more developed than Jamaica. For a time, in fact, Jamaica was ahead of it. This is suprising, considering the fact that people like you consider apartheid SA to have been a more developed country, a point that you use to back up your statements "modern day black ruled sa is worse because blacks are in control".

And yet, there are black nations worldwide which have matched it. Go figure.

Look at Asia e.g. Singapore, the Asian mentality is, "Right, let's get educated, and let's stop blaming others for our woes and start blaming ourselves. Once this is fixed we can get on with moving forward."

You really don't think there are blacks on this planet who think similarly, do you?

Black societies, even in America are poorer and worse off,

Not totally true, as I just showed.

A tribal or gangland nature where an individual would rather look good and lose than look bad and win, how many blacks are more interested in music and sports compared to maths or a university education not based on sport scholarships?

I agree, that culture isn't any good...but you are wrong in saying thatthere are no black societies that have transcended it.

America is littered with people having nothing more than hunger for a better life coming from nothing and making a huge success. Just look at the Italians, Irish, Jews, Indians, Persians the list goes on and on.

What about the black immigrants? Did you bother to research them? Or do you just hate black people so much that you'll paint them negatively even if you don't have all the facts?

Read this article.

http://www.africaresource.com/content/view/235/68/

Do African immigrants make the smartest Americans? The question may sound outlandish, but if you were judging by statistics alone, you could find plenty of evidence to back it up.

In a side-by-side comparison of 2000 census data by sociologists including John R. Logan at the Mumford Center, State University of New York at Albany, black immigrants from Africa averaged the highest educational attainment of any population group in the country, including whites and Asians.

For example, 43.8 percent of African immigrants had achieved a college degree, compared with 42.5 of Asian-Americans, 28.9 percent for immigrants from Europe, Russia and Canada and 23.1 percent of the U.S. population as a whole.

That defies the usual stereotypes of Asian-Americans as the only "model minority." Yet the traditional American narrative has rendered the high academic achievements of black immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean invisible, as if that were a taboo topic.

Instead, we should take a closer look. That was my reaction in 2004 after black Harvard law professor Lani Guinier and Henry Louis Gates Jr., chairman of Harvard's African-American studies department, stirred up a black Harvard alumni reunion with questions about precisely where the university's new black students were coming from.

About 8 percent, or about 530, of Harvard's undergraduates were black, Gates and Guinier said, but somewhere between one-half and two-thirds of the black students were "West Indian and African immigrants or their children, or to a lesser extent, children of biracial couples."

If we take a closer look, I said at the time, I bet we'd find that Harvard's not alone. With all of the ink and airwaves that have been devoted to immigration these days, black immigrants remain remarkably invisible. Yet, their success has long followed the patterns of other high-achieving immigrants.

Now comes a new study that finds a consistent pattern of Ivy League and other elite colleges and universities boosting their black student populations by enrolling large numbers of immigrants from Africa, the West Indies and Latin America.

Immigrants, who make up 13percent of the nation's college-age black population, account for more than a fourth of black students at Ivy League and other selective universities, according to the study of 28 colleges and universities. The authors of the study, published recently in the American Journal of Education, included Douglas S. Massey of Princeton University and Camille Z. Charles at the University of Pennsylvania. The proportion of immigrants was higher at private institutions, 28.8 percent, than at the public colleges, where they comprised 23.1 percent of enrollment.

Are elite schools padding their racial diversity numbers with black immigrants who do not have a history of American slavery in their families? This development immediately calls into question whether affirmative action admission policies are fulfilling their original intent.

But, as Walter Benn Michaels, a professor of English at the University of Illinois at Chicago, writes in his book "The Trouble With Diversity," the original intent of affirmative action morphed in the 1970s from reparations for slavery into the promotion of a broader virtue: "diversity."

Since then, it no longer seems to matter how many of our colleges' black students have slavery in their families. It only matters that they're black.

That said, I don't begrudge black immigrants or any other high-achieving immigrants for their impressive achievements. I applaud them. I encourage more native-born American children, particularly my own child, to take similar advantage of this country's hard-won opportunities.

But I also think we need to revisit the question of diversity. Unlike our system of feel-good game-playing, we need to focus on the deeper question of how opportunities can be opened to everyone who was left behind by the civil rights revolution. We tend to look too often at every aspect of diversity except economic class.



Want to revise your statement?

And do you also really think that, not even counting black immigrants, that there are not any black americans who have a positive attitude?

Blacks barely even make the billionaire list despite being almost 30% of the population.

You're off yet again. Blacks are only about 13-14% of the US population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American#Demographics

Try again.

Those that do almost always come from sports or entertainment not sheer hard work of starting a business and contributing to society through employment and skill.

Oporah, Robert Johnson, Tokyo Sexwale...

I think you're a bit off here to.

Blacks also have little disregard for human life, look at the crime in black societies, where life is worth nothing. Even in Australia the aboriginals commit far more crime and violent crime than the general per capita population.

LOL

Comparative criminology-learn about it.

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/europe/france.html

France's Crime rate: The rate for all index offenses combined was 4434.51 for France, compared with 1709.88 for Japan and 4123.97 for USA.

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/africa/botswana.html

Botswana's Crime Rate: The rate for all index offenses combined was 1,338.54 for Botswana, compared with 1709.88 for Japan and 4160.51 for USA

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/namerica/barbados.html

Barbados' Crime Rate: The rate for all index offenses combined was 2364.94 for Barbados, compared with 1709.88 for Japan and 4123.97 for USA.

Look at that-in just a couple minutes, i was able to show that not all black nations are, in fact, lawless.

At least, not unless you consider France to be lawless.

In South Africa there are jobs advertised as black only or affirmative action whereby no whites will get the job. Already they are passing students in schools and university who don’t make the grade which will only lead to that country becoming a future “African Basket case”

Well, apartheid didn't help the situation, did it?

Look at Zimbabwe and how a prosperous country was taken over by a gang leader, a thug and a classic example of what black societies are, around the world.

Zimababwe? prosperous?

Oh, you mean under white rule back in 1975 when it was called "Rhodesia".

Lets look at how "prosperous" Rhodesia was.

http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statistics/countries/data_sheets/cty_ds_ZWE.html

Human development index, 1975 0.548

That measurement was taken 5 years before blacks ever came to power there.

Lets see how that compares to black nations today:

http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statistics/indicators/16.html

Bahamas: .825
Barbados: .879
Seychelles: .842
St. Kitts and nevis: .825
Trinidad and Tobago: .809
Antigua and barbuda: .808
Dominica: .793
St. Lucia: .790
Grenada: .762
St. Vincent: .759
Dominican Republic: .751
Guyana: .725
Jamaica: .724
Cape verde: .722
Equatorial Guinea: .653
Modern Day South Africa: .653
Gabon: .633
Namibia: .626
Botswana: .570
Comoros: .556
Ghana: .532

Look at that! Your "prosperous" Rhodesia barely outdoes modern day Ghana.

That leads me to believe that these "horrid" African nations you're talking about really aren't as bad as you say.

So go ahead write your socks off about how racist I am, go and ban me!

No, I don't want them to ban you.

In fact, I'll ask them now:

Moderators, please don't ban this user...yet.

I want you to respond to what I've written here. Let's see if your little racialist "theories" stand up to the real facts.

Yet what I write is true one only need to look at ANY black society around the world

Like Barbados?:ohno:

so all you bleeding heart libertarians and lefties keep ignoring the problem and it wil remain. Until blacks can get their own lives together, the longer their cities, health and civilisation will remain in the dark ages like the above photos show. Man may have evolved from Africa but he certainly never evolved in Africa!

LOL...right. You white nationalist/racialist types all sound the same.

Comparing black societies now to the middle ages shows you are not well read or lack any knowledge of history. While there were many small city states the ability to trade and grow for a common good eventually led to the age of exploration and renaissance (remember Europe had no inspiration).

No inspiration?

half of the technology they used to get across the sea came from the Middle East. The Astrolabe, the new sails, shipbuilding techniques...the compass!

Without technology from the middle east and china, the age of exploration never would have taken place.

With all the communication and ability to see the results of places like Thailand, China and Indonesia, Africa should have a few countries making progress and apart from Botswana the African representatives still can't get their act together.

There are a few countries making progress.

Uganda is one. Look at the HDI:

Human development index, 1985 0.414
Human development index, 1990 0.411
Human development index, 1995 0.413
Human development index, 2000 0.474
Human development index, 2004 0.502

Those are some of the largest single increases you'll see in the HDI. In 10 years, Uganada has went from one of the least developed nations on the planet, to entering the "medium development"(.500 or above) category.

Progress.

Here is yet another one, Ghana:http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statistics/countries/data_sheets/cty_ds_GHA.html

Human development index, 1975 0.438
Human development index, 1980 0.467
Human development index, 1985 0.482
Human development index, 1990 0.511
Human development index, 1995 0.531
Human development index, 2000 0.555
Human development index, 2004 0.532

1980: Lowly developed nation.

2004: Ghana is in the medium category, and is poised to become a middle income nation in just 15 years.

Improvement exists in Africa, you just like to ignore it.

That, or you don't really know what you're talking about to begin with.

Ask yourself these 2 simple questions:

Why even in western countries are black areas dirtier, decaying and rundown when similar poor white areas are cleaner with people who can have pride and hope in their lives? Why can a black person or woman walk down almost any neighbourhood without feeling threatened, while a white person walking through even a moderately safe black neighbourhood has to be fearful?

Yet more misconceptions.

White people have no problems walking through entire countries like Barbados or the Bahamas, much less smaller neighborhoods. You're less likely to be murdered in Barbados than you are in France.

The same applies to neighborhoods. Not all black neighborhoods are impassable.

Marco,

Yes I think you have a valid point. Growing up in South Africa there were blacks, just like today who rise above. I don't for one second think it is that they are an inferior race.

What I do think is that their culture prevents a society. It lacks harmony, and while they still blame others for their ills. well they will not move forward.

We have to be idiots to cancel their debt!

In Australia our prime minister, flew in a very old 707 for years, while driving a run of the mill car. Australia is one of he richest countries on earth. In Africa we will cancel the debt and as you may have seen, these rulers will go out and buy fleets of Mercedes and Lear jets! This is just like the music videos that idolise black culture of one individual with gold and cars and woman at the expense of any of their society/community. How many rappers with lots of money today will be begging in 25 years?

No way would we cancel debt, western countries aren't that stupid.

BTW in response to Zimbabwe, the wealth came from the white farmers not the government's steps in the 80's it was the government's steps in the 2000's (by taking away the white farms) that has killed the country.

Comparing black societies now to the middle ages shows you are not well read or lack any knowledge of history. While there were many small city states the ability to trade and grow for a common good eventually led to the age of exploration and renaissance (remember Europe had no inspiration). With all the communication and ability to see the results of places like Thailand, China and Indonesia, Africa should have a few countries making progress and apart from Botswana the African representatives still can't get their act together.

Ask yourself these 2 simple questions:

Why even in western countries are black areas dirtier, decaying and rundown when similar poor white areas are cleaner with people who can have pride and hope in their lives?

Why can a black person or woman walk down almost any neighbourhood without feeling threatened, while a white person walking through even a moderately safe black neighbourhood has to be fearful?

Twingo:

I will respectfully disagree with your statement that Blacks or Africans can not govern themselfs ,you said ´THERE CULTURE PREVENTS A SOCIETY.¨

From the ancient history of Africa's great empires, it can be clearly seen that Africa and Africans have contributed to what we now consider Western Civilization and society. All along the West African coast, Africans had developed various systems of government, from the extended family to regional empires and the Village State. Many of them consisting of those attributes of a modern state (armies, courts, etc.). According to Melville J. Herskovits, a known anthropologist, "of the areas inhabited by non-literate people, Africa exhibits the great incidence of complex governmental structures. could mobilize resources and concentrate power very effective, these African monarchies, which are more to be compared with Europe of the middle ages then referred to the common conception of the 'primitive' state."

Ghana was one of the great African Empires, various countries in Europe were dependent on imports of gold before the discovery of America. The "civilization" of Ghana was advanced to such a level that a system of taxation was imposed on every load of goods entering or leaving the empire. Trading, therefore, was a highly organized system which the wealth and importance of Ghana was based.
According to El-farzari, an Arab writer of that period, the people of Ghana were also successful in overpowering their advanced methods of warfare and their weapons, which were swords and lances.

Other example is during the decline of Mali, the Songhai Empire emerged. In about 1464.

The Soghai Empire was very organized and instituted a system of discipline government. created a number of central offices, similar to our contemporary government departments to oversee justice, finance, agriculture and other matters of importance in the affairs of the state. trade in gold from Sudan region continued to flow northward into Europe.
It imported manufactured goods, clothes, and salt from Spain and Germany. It conquer Timbuktu and it prosper,Timbuktu became a greater center of learning. Its university, the first in Africa , was so famous that scholars came to it from all over the Muslim world, Europe and Asia.

In Timbuktu you could find numerous judges, doctors, clerics, all receiving good salaries from the king. The learning centers in Timbuktu had large and valuable collections of manuscripts in several languages, including Greek and Latin.

I do NOT belive Blacks lack the skill to became self governed and create a succesfull society,i also belive that YES! we need to help them create a succesfull state.,if others prosper with out help(Europe¨inspiration¨ from Greeks,Midle East etc) ,well...so be it! But this people need any help they can get.

I do agree with you,in that we do not have to give them money,since is just not only a money problem.
And your right to say that western countrys will not forgive debt,but is not a question of how stupid they are,is how greety western countrys are.

Mexico has send to Haiti hundreds of tons of Corn,sugar,Beans, Medicines and Doctor, engineers and water purification plants a Mexican Hospital Navy ship was also send out to help out the civilian population.

My country,Mexico is always tried to help Haiti but sometimes is hard after sending hundreds of tons of food they were badly destribuated or they never made it to the hands of people who need it the most,thanks to some locals.

I belive the rather giving them money or food we need to help them establish a good stable democracy and help them built up the education level,erradicate extreme military factions,to bring peace and harmony to this nations.

I really belive in a old prover that says “Give me a fish and I eat for a day. Teach me to fish and I eat for a lifetime.”

Thank you.

Marco A. Camacho Presichi

It is the job of France and the US to help build Haiti, esp. France who robbed most of its natural resources and made them paid their for their independence at such a high cost. However, since those countries don't really care about Haiti's progress, I think perhaps the UN should step in and train Haitians how to govern themselves, because giving aid every year is not really helping them. Perhaps the UN can take care of Haiti as it has been doing w/ Kosovo.

i have to admit i know little about africa except griaff. still very poor there, i wanna a reason. china is the same poor 20 years ago, but not looks that mess and dirty.

:applause: The USA should do something about this poor unfortunate land...instead of spending trillions on wars and inciting terrorists.

Basic water treatment plants , re-forestation, urban infrastructure , schools , hospitals. A mere 50 billion will do fine.....that's one month's worth of war mongering.

A-men to that ! :applause:

This will be my last post, as I can see that the despite everything I have mentioned there are still some that can't see the pictures in this forum that speak for themselves.

First, Vanman I don't see the link of MTV. The point I was trying to make was one of, a leader inevitably better off than his contemporaries. Whether this is politicians or rap stars. (Just look at the photos in this image) The rap point only seeks to glorify this and encourage future generational despair.

Vanman, I agree with you in regards to not all races are perfect. Whites have more serial killers and there are different types of crime depending on one's situation. My point was that while it may be one mobster or one serial killer the numbers per capita of population among that single race is different.

As for you quote

Ask yourself this question: Is it ethically and morally correct for wealthy countries, who's empires were built on the backs of slavery to deny financial aid and debt relief to the very nations in which they enslaved or helped impoverish?

This has got to be the biggest garbage I have ever read! The amount of money wealthy countries have and continue to spend easily exceeds any amount benefited. The resulting problems from slavery are a testament to this.

To answer DanteXavier, I am familiar with these stats. I am very familiar with the Caribbean countries. These are wikipedia figures and while they are based on a tourism and service industry economy none have managed to make the leap from 1975 like countries in Asia!
The stats for South Africa include the majority black population so of course it would be at similar levels to Jamaica.

Last but not least I am extremely familiar with Logan's study. And while I take his research seriously, the link still baffles me as to how come they can not influence their own societies to be a better one?

I was mistaken about the US African population, do me a favour compare the 13-14% with the black prison population won't you. I'll even give you a non wikipedia link


The facts are black prison populations are many many times higher than their representation to population. Again we blame wealthy nations, foreign debt, war in Iraq etc etc for my ills. What I have constantly said is "it is time to take responsibility for one's own actions. Haiti and others must start looking inward rather than blaming everyone.

I am aware of the HDI figures I have seen them many times before. These horrid nations who you don't think are so bad are reviewed over and over in the photos in this forum.

I am not LOL...right. You white nationalist/racialist types all sound the same.
I am merely tired of the poor me syndrome synonymous with black societies.
I am tired of the belief that the only reason the west is successful is because it was built on the backs of poor souls and the west would be nowhere with out slavery or pillage! Timbuktu, Mali and Ghana kingdoms SOLD their OWN people to the Europeans. Just like many are sold out today.
I am tired of people who have all the opportunity in countries like the US or Australia or France not bothering to get their hands dirty and work. Like the Italians, Jews, Indians and Asians who have all had very tough histories but risen to the top. Where are the black Jerry Yang's or Sergey Brin's? These guys have barely been in the US yet look at the IT contribution. Where are the blacks in nobel prizes (excluding peace), finance, economics, medicine, entrepreneurship, and dozens of other fields. Yes there may be an individual here or there but the % compared to their population is small.

As mentioned I don't want to upset people, so this will be my last post on this topic. I just want to bring people's attention that it is YOUR, not anyone else not any nation to solve your problems! The US can't solve New Orleans mess, Haiti and the rest of the black world has little hope if it wants a bail out! The easiest way to fix your problems is to fix them yourselves!

A government link about prison populations

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

Why should America do anything about it? That's how we got into this mess in Iraq. Plus, I thought every country hated America for meddling in other countries business? Don't get me wrong, it looks bad over there and I feel bad, but France should do it. We have enough problems over here as it is.

BTW in response to Zimbabwe, the wealth came from the white farmers not the government's steps in the 80's it was the government's steps in the 2000's (by taking away the white farms) that has killed the country.

Comparing black societies now to the middle ages shows you are not well read or lack any knowledge of history. While there were many small city states the ability to trade and grow for a common good eventually led to the age of exploration and renaissance (remember Europe had no inspiration). With all the communication and ability to see the results of places like Thailand, China and Indonesia, Africa should have a few countries making progress and apart from Botswana the African representatives still can't get their act together.



In response to your first point, this is not necessarily so, most investment during that time went into infrastructure and natural resource mining. It is obvious the decision to expel white farmers was a populist move upon Mugabe's part to cement his position.

Secondly, please read more carefully, I did not compare contemporary African societies with medieval Europe. It was a merely a response to someones vague statement about development takings 30-50 years. Anyway, the influence of an already idustrialised powers does not necessarily help a developing country. When an advanced civilization has met one less advanced, history demonstrates how it is almost inevitable that the former will exploit and damage the latter. Rome in relation to Celtic Europe, European settlers in North America.

It is understandable that constantly blaming past evils of slavery may be seen as an excuse. To be honest, it can annoy me sometimes too if someone denies a proper talk over current African affairs, if I do not grovel to the full extent 'white guilt' should allow me to, but try to be empathetic. Imagine if your people had a history of racial slavery, and continuing exploitation, it is an incredible bane to carry.
In addition, in places like South America, crime is the white man's fear, ironic since it was the policies of the white government that created a generation lost young blacks that had no where to go. Try to imagine yourself absolutely barred from all chances of real success, and how frustrating that would be.
Yes, apartheid ended 13 years ago, but its effects will last for decades if not more.

Equally, economic prejudice, such as in America can effect minorities' chances.
When eventually, laws were passed to end injustice and institutionalized racism, African Americans, living in cities that they had migrated to in search of jobs, get hit with the full policies of neo-liberalism in which all of those that may be more vulnerable in society suffer. With years of deliberate prejudice, disadvantaged minorities were expected to reach a the same level of success, with most the routes that would enable them to, shut off. Anyway, there a numerous examples of who people have done well for themselves.

All this talk of increased crime amongst minorities is just due to economic disadvantages. But also remember, that it is obvious that blacks get accused more readily,tend to get a stiffer sentence and may be more likely to face prison In America, the majority of people of men on death row convicted of murder are black, event though they are not in the majority of convicted murderers.

This will be my last post,

To tired to stay and defend yourself?

How dishonorable.

To answer DanteXavier, I am familiar with these stats. I am very familiar with the Caribbean countries.

No, you aren't.

You see, if you werer, you probably wouldn't have made such a stupid generalization like this: "Look at any black run country and you'll see-none of them are successful!"

The entire caribbean is doing well save for haiti. And all of those nations are run by blacks(except maybe Cuba). This, combined with your statements, leads me to believe that you actually aren't familiar at all.

These are wikipedia figures

You really don't know anything, do you?

http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statistics/

They come from the UN, wikipedia just listed them.

How ignorant can you be? Here you are, yacking on about this, and yet you don't even actually know what you're talking about.:ohno:

and while they are based on a tourism and service industry economy none have managed to make the leap from 1975 like countries in Asia!

WTF are you talking about? They're all developed nations, on par with asia in terms of living standards. I proved that already with the HDI.

You don't have an argument.

The stats for South Africa include the majority black population so of course it would be at similar levels to Jamaica.

yeah, because if we only included white Saffies, SA would be a first world nation. The only problem is that they accomplished that by making sure that black saffies stayed in the dumps.

Last but not least I am extremely familiar with Logan's study. And while I take his research seriously, the link still baffles me as to how come they can not influence their own societies to be a better one?

Most of the caribbean nations are first world(in the "high" category on the HDI). Even a couple of those that aren't(like St. Lucia and Dominica) manage to rank very close to it.

That isn't enough for you, though, is it?

I was mistaken about the US African population, do me a favour compare the 13-14% with the black prison population won't you. I'll even give you a non wikipedia link
[/URL]

That link mentions the black incarceration rate.

It doesn't give us the black prison population.

The facts are black prison populations are many many times higher than their representation to population.

Again we blame wealthy nations, foreign debt, war in Iraq etc etc for my ills. What I have constantly said is "it is time to take responsibility for one's own actions. Haiti and others must start looking inward rather than blaming everyone.

Sure they must. i never contended otherwise.

What I am contending are your daft generalizations of blacks and of black societies in general. Haiti has its problems, but you go as far as to say "look at any black society, anywhere and you'll see-every black society is bad!".

As a Jamaican, I find that personally insulting.

I am aware of the HDI figures I have seen them many times before.

No, you haven't.

If you had, and if you'd paid attention, you wouldn't have made so many stupid remarks.

These horrid nations who you don't think are so bad are reviewed over and over in the photos in this forum.

....WTF?

Have you seen the photos of the nations I'm talking about?

Why don't you just head over to SSC Africa, view the namibia, botswana, etc, etc photo threads, and then get back to me when you learn something.

I am merely tired of the poor me syndrome synonymous with black societies.

Yeah, sure.

I am tired of the belief that the only reason the west is successful is because it was built on the backs of poor souls and the west would be nowhere with out slavery or pillage!

Not all successful western nations were even built on slavery(look at Norway and Sweden), so such a statement couldn't be completely true anyhow.

Timbuktu, Mali and Ghana kingdoms SOLD their OWN people to the Europeans. Just like many are sold out today.

Timbuktu wasn't a kingdom-it was a city within the Kingdom of Ghana, and later the Kingdom of Mali.
And yes they traded slaves, but not primarily to the Europeans. The slaves went mostly to the arabs in a form of indentured servitude.

The ignorance of history you show is mind boggling.

I am tired of people who have all the opportunity in countries like the US or Australia or France not bothering to get their hands dirty and work. Like the Italians, Jews, Indians and Asians who have all had very tough histories but risen to the top.

Yeah...again ignoring the black immigrants.

I don't think you care about them. You just don't like blacks all that much.

Where are the black Jerry Yang's or Sergey Brin's?

Oprah? Robert Johnson? Richard Parsons? Kenneth Chennault? E. Stanley O'Neal? Tokyo Sexwale?

Do you study before you speak?

These guys have barely been in the US yet look at the IT contribution. Where are the blacks in nobel prizes (excluding peace),

Wole Soyinka, 1986 Literature Prize
Derek Walcott, 1992 Literature Prize
Toni Morrison, 1993 Literature Prize
Sir William Arthur Lewis, 1979 Economics Prize

finance,

The CEO of one of the world's largest financial service companies is black.

http://www.ml.com/index.asp?id=7695_8134_8302_13747 (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm)

economics,

Sir William Lewis won a nobel prize for it back in 1979.

medicine,

Charles E. Drew developed improved methods for blood storage during World War 2(1942). His work was critical to the war effort.

[url]http://www.answers.com/topic/charles-r-drew

The science and practice of blood transfusion had developed from early work including preserving whole blood in refrigerated storage in World War I (see Oswald Hope Robertson) and the practice of having hospital “blood banks” (see Bernard Fantus) in the mid-1930s. Drew focused his own work[1] on the challenge of separating and storing blood components, particularly blood plasma, as this might extend storage periods. Dr. Drew earned his Doctor of Medical Science degree from Columbia University in 1940, with a doctoral thesis under the title Banked Blood: A Study in Blood Preservation.

And read this to: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_n9_v50/ai_17128540


entrepreneurship,

Described above-there are a number of black CEOs.

Yes there may be an individual here or there but the % compared to their population is small.

Prove it.

As mentioned I don't want to upset people, so this will be my last post on this topic.

Coward.

I just want to bring people's attention that it is YOUR, not anyone else not any nation to solve your problems! The US can't solve New Orleans mess, Haiti and the rest of the black world has little hope if it wants a bail out! The easiest way to fix your problems is to fix them yourselves!

isn't New orleans kind of part of the US? How is the US not responsible for fixing the hurricane damge, then?:bash:

I lived in an upper middle class neighborhood in Los Angles where about 35% were African American (mostly doctors, judges and business people). I was so impressed at the quality of their families, their sense of style, and how well they kept their homes.

It was their education and values that made this people not their skin color.

Thanx dantexavier, im sure youve shut him up. Its sad that at this time and age people still have that kind of mentality.

Good job getting all the facts Dantexavier to negate all that drivel.

I would also like to thank you as well Dantexavier. You are very artculate and know your facts. Being half Hatian I was greatly offended by some of the comments made on this thread. I think Twingo needs to travel the world before he makes such gross generalisations about any race. Canada for one is a very integrated, multicultural nation that for the most part respects all cultures equally.(Our Governor General (representative to the queen) is Hatian.) I can't speak for Montreal or Toronto but if you visited Vancouver you would see very few to no black homeless people, despite the fact that there has been wave after wave of African refugees and immigrants (mainly from Sudan)in recent years. It may take a few years to get used to a new society but if it is open and welcoming enough Africans as well as any other race will and do succeed.

I must also commend Dante. As a Haitian-American, I too was offended by his ultra-polarized generalizations.


All this talk of increased crime amongst minorities is just due to economic disadvantages. But also remember, that it is obvious that blacks get accused more readily,tend to get a stiffer sentence and may be more likely to face prison

Exactly! And not only that:

http://www.northwestern.edu/ipr/publ...3/pagerajs.pdf

In 2001, Devah Pager carried out a compelling study of employers responding to an applicant pool if 350 white and black young men, some with and without prison records. He reported that white men with identical work experience and education, but had been convicted of a crime were half as likely (17 percent) to receive a call back as those without a criminal record (34 percent). Among, black men the figures were 5 percent and 14 percent respectively.


So, with education and work experience being equal, a black man WITHOUT a criminal record is still LESS LIKELY to get a call back than a white man WITH a record...in THIS century.

Many sociology studies have confirmed that simply "looking inward" is not enough.

The USA should do something about this poor unfortunate land...instead of spending trillions on wars and inciting terrorists.

Basic water treatment plants , re-forestation, urban infrastructure , schools , hospitals. A mere 50 billion will do fine.....that's one month's worth of war mongering.

Are you kidding? The USA did do something to Haiti. The pictures you see are the result.

Vanman,

I think Twingo needs to travel the world before he makes such gross generalisations about any race

I am only in my early 20's yet I was born in South Africa I have been to:

South Africa
Zimbabwe
Angola
Namibia
Kenya
Egypt

England
Germany
France
Italy
Israel
Jordan
Turkey

Most of the states is the US including the south! and Hawaii
Jamaica
Bahamas
Bermuda
Costa Rica
Virgin Islands
Trinidad & Tobago

Most of Asia
Thailand
Vietnam
Indonesia
Singapore
HK
Malaysia
Most of the Pacific e.g New Caledonia and Vanuata and Fiji

Majority of Australia

The world doesn't lie, experiencing it 1st hand has given me a fair idea.

I lived in an upper middle class neighborhood in Los Angles where about 35% were African American (mostly doctors, judges and business people). I was so impressed at the quality of their families, their sense of style, and how well they kept their homes.

It was their education and values that made this people not their skin color.

Hornieguy,i truly understand what your talking about.

I also belive is the way your raised and educated is what really make a difrence in the life of an individual and there impact on society and NOT race.

In Twingo´s defense he is just out speaking hes point of view and he remained respectfull thru all hes comments with all of us.

Im not saying that you should like what hes point of view is or agree with him.

Remember that Twingo is also a result of hes education and the way he was raised, in a hostil eviroment partly attributed to the legacy of the apartheid and racist separatist state that was South Africa,and that esence of racist belives is still carried there.

Hes also a victim,just like Blacks are of there poor eviroments.

The same happend to young Germans part of the Hitler youth wich some of them were raised to belive in certain racist ideas and propaganda that were so impregnated in there brain that they could never shake it off.

Another recent example of this took place in the United States of America, most Americans that there parents or them lived in a society before the Civil Right Movement wich excluded blacks,Asians and Mexicans most of them have that negative feeling or distrust of these races,and this just took place a few decades ago in the case of Germany it was in the 1940´s and in the U.S. late 1960´s and South Africa the most recent case in 1994.

Lets talk about this issue with a opend mind,is healthy to discuss it in a respectfull and constructive manner.

Thank You.

Marco A. Camacho Presichi.


http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/1439/260pxdurbansign1989bt9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Shot at 2007-07-19
"Petty apartheid": sign on Durban beach in English, Afrikaans and Zulu (1989)

Segregation, United States.
http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/8347/imagesgv6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Shot at 2007-07-20

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6593/whitesonlywa8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Shot at 2007-07-19

Thanks for all the commendations, guys, your kind words are appreciated.

The world doesn't lie, experiencing it 1st hand has given me a fair idea.

You went to a place like Vietnam, and then went to a place like the Bahamas and bermuda and concluded that somehow Vietnam was no problem but those two were?

That statement leads me to doubt your claim...that, or you did go and you just didn't pay a lot of attention.

Not to insult the vietnamese, i respect them...but their country is not lightyears ahead of most of the caribbean like you would foolishly have us believe. According to the HDI, Jamaica has a higher standard of living, much less the Bahamas or Bermuda.

Oh yeah, and since you've decided to show up, respond to my post I addressed to you earlier. You could at least attempt to defend yourself.

Hornieguy,i truly understand what your talking about.
Segregation, United States.
http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/8347/imagesgv6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Shot at 2007-07-20


^^

...There are whites Spanish and whites Mexicans so...i really don't understand :dunno:

^^

...There are whites Spanish and whites Mexicans so...i really don't understand :dunno:

The fools who made up that legislation didn't take those facts into account. :bash:

DanteXavier again I am making a generalisation. Which I have been trying to make since my first post!

So instead of swearing (in regards to multiple uses of WTF), calling me names and insulting my intelligence. Let me once again say!

AS A GENERAL STATEMENT!

There are high achievers in every society yet inevitably I don't see the numbers in black societies as a % of population. Ask yourself how many people can name black achievements in sports/entertainment as opposed to the topics I listed before?

If I asked for a sports list you would give me much more names, why can't you give me dozens of names in industry? A few names here or there I won't debate it is the society as a whole.

You ask me to prove it.
do basic searches and you will see that with millions upon millions of black societies the numbers of pathetically small for overall achievement in our modern society. Why is that?

But even if you want to counter this by blaming the salve trade. Ask yourself this:

Name ancient inventions by China?
rudder, compass, gunpowder etc etc
Name ancient inventions by any African country?
?

Timbuktu wasn't a kingdom-it was a city within the Kingdom of Ghana, and later the Kingdom of Mali.
And yes they traded slaves, but not primarily to the Europeans. The slaves went mostly to the arabs in a form of indentured servitude.

The ignorance of history you show is mind boggling.
hmm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_Trade

You went to a place like Vietnam, and then went to a place like the Bahamas and bermuda and concluded that somehow Vietnam was no problem but those two were?

That statement leads me to doubt your claim...that, or you did go and you just didn't pay a lot of attention.

Not to insult the vietnamese, i respect them...but their country is not lightyears ahead of most of the caribbean like you would foolishly have us believe. According to the HDI, Jamaica has a higher standard of living, much less the Bahamas or Bermuda.

I did not for one second hear any Vietnamese cry POOR ME about a war that was only a few years ago. Even prolixity feel the US owes Haiti something.

Black societies are still playing the blame game over slavery and what the west has done to them hundreds of years later. YOU (society) weep and cry poor me, look what other's have done. Well our younger generation have had it in chunks! I feel that rather than moving on our kids will be having the same argument. The only thing is in 20 yrs vietnam will have gotten on with business and the HDI will leave comparitive societies in the dust, while haiti and the like will still be blaming others!

a final point to ponder, if these societies are doing so well and thriving so nicely, WHY do we need to cancel debt? Why is bono carrying on and on? Why did we not need to bail out the philipines or thailand? yet will have to bail out others?

That's it I am done!

www.smh.com.au/.../2007/06/21/1182019286794.html

Read this from only a couple of weeks ago!

I am just about to finish a Masters Degree. Our government has thrown tonnes of money to help. Black societies have almost all services free. They can do medicine on much much lower marks than my contemporaries yet as a society they fall further and further behind. People are tired of societies not progressing when given all the opportunity to go forward. My comments don't come from hate they come from observation.

^ You are entitled to your own opinion but basically what you are saying over and over again in different words is that Africans and blacks are inferior. Like I said before if that does not constitute racism I don't know what does. You are in denial.

My comments don't come from hate they come from observation.

You only see what you allow yourself to see!

www.smh.com.au/.../2007/06/21/1182019286794.html

Read this from only a couple of weeks ago!

I am just about to finish a Masters Degree. Our government has thrown tonnes of money to help. Black societies have almost all services free. They can do medicine on much much lower marks than my contemporaries yet as a society they fall further and further behind. People are tired of societies not progressing when given all the opportunity to go forward. My comments don't come from hate they come from observation.


Are you white? Because I have heard most of the people in South Africa are black, so it would really surprise me if a black person would talk like that about their own race.

DanteXavier again I am making a generalisation. Which I have been trying to make since my first post!

And that is exactly why people get pissed at you.

There are high achievers in every society yet inevitably I don't see the numbers in black societies as a % of population. Ask yourself how many people can name black achievements in sports/entertainment as opposed to the topics I listed before?

I think most people are aware of the achievements by the black CEOs I mentioned(Oprah, Tokyo Sexwale, etc, etc).

If I asked for a sports list you would give me much more names, why can't you give me dozens of names in industry? A few names here or there I won't debate it is the society as a whole.

I did it.

You ask me to prove it.
do basic searches and you will see that with millions upon millions of black societies the numbers of pathetically small for overall achievement in our modern society. Why is that?

Alright, here goes then. It's a good thing I compiled this list a lot earlier on.

Christopher Chetsanga

Discovered two enzymes involved in the repair of damaged DNA:
Formamido-pyrimidine DNA glycosylase that removes damaged 7-methylguanine from DNA (1979).
DNA cyclase that recluses imidazole rings of guanine and adenine damaged by x-irradiation (1983).
http://www.answers.com/topic/christopher-chetsanga

Bessie V. Griffin Portable Receptacle 1951

A.P. Abourne Refining of coconut oil. July 27, 1980

A. B. Blackburn Spring seat for chairs. Patent# 380,420 April 3, 1888

A.C. Richardson Casket-Lowering Device. Patent# 529,311 November 13, 1894

A.C. Richardson Churn. Patent # 466,470 February 17, 1891

A.E. Long and A.A. Jones-- Caps For Bottles And Jars 1898

A.L. Lewis Window Cleaner 1892

A.L. Rickman Galoshes 1898

Anna M. Mangin Pastry fork March 1, 1892

Alexander P. Ashbourne Biscuit Cutter November, 1875

Alfred L. Cralle Ice Cream Scooper. Patent # 576,395 February 2,1897

B.F. Jackson Gas Burner

C. W. Allen Self Leveling table. Patent # 613,436 November 1, 1898

D. McCree Portable Fire Escape. Patent # 440,322 November 11, 1890

Dr. Daniel Hale Williams Performed First Open Heart Surgery 1893

Ellen Elgin Clothes Wringer 1880s

Folarin Sosan Package-Park (Solves Package Delivery Dilemma) www.maita.com 1997

Frederick Jones Ticket Dispensing Machine. Patent # 2163754 June 27, 1939

Frederick Jones Starter Generator. Patent # 2475842 July 12, 1949

Frederick Jones Two-Cycle gasoline Engine. Patent # 2523273 November 28, 1950

Frederick Jones also created a system that helped to refrigerate trucks and ships. His system was not the first to create refrigeration for ships, however, it was a huge improvement over the previous lower tech fridges put into trucks before that time.

Frederick Jones Portable X-Ray Machine

G.W. Murray Cultivator and Marker. Patent # 517,961 April 10, 1894

G.W. Murray Combined Furrow Opener and Stalk-Knocker. Patent # 517,960 April 10, 1894

G.W. Murray Fertilizer Distributor. Patent# 520,889 June 5, 1894

G.W. Murray Cotton Chopper. Patent # 520,888 June 5, 1894

G.W. Kelley Steam Table 1897

Granville T. Woods
http://inventors.about.com/library/i...rs/blwoods.htm

H.H. Reynolds Window Ventilator for Railroad Cars.
Patent No.275,271 April 3, 1883

Henry Single Patented an Improved Fish Hook. He sold it later for $625. 1854

I.O. Carter Nursery Chair 1960

J. A. Joyce Ore Bucket. Patent # 603,143 April 26, 1898

J.A. Sweeting Cigarette Roller 1897

J. H. Hunter Portable Weighing Scales. Patent # 570,533 November 3, 1896

J. W. Reed Dough Kneader and Roller. Patents# 304,552 September 2, 1884

J. H. Robinson Lifesaving guards for Street Cars. Patent# 623,929 April 25, 1899

J. Ross Bailing Press. Patent # 632,539 Sept 05, 1899

J.H. White Lemon Squeezer 1896

James Forten Sailing Apparatus 1850

Jan Matzelinger Automatic Shoe Making Machine 1883

Joan Clark Medicine Tray 1987

John Parker "Parker Pulverizer" Follower-Screw for Tobacco Presses. Patent# 304,552 September 2, 1884
http://www.blackinventor.com/pages/jamesforten.html

L.C. Bailey Folding Bed 1899

Lewis Temple Toggle Harpoon (Revolutionized The Whaling Industry) 1848

Madam. C. Walker Hair Care Products 1905

M.C. Harney Lantern/Lamp Aug.19, 1884

Madeline M. Turner The Fruit Press 1916

Marie V. Brittan Brown Security System. Patent # 3,482,037 December 2, 1969

Manley West Discovered compound in canibis to cure glaucoma. 1980-1987

Norbett Rillieux Sugar Refining System 1846

Otis F. Boykin Wire Type Precision Resistor.
Patent # U.S. 2,891,227 June 16, 1959

R.A. Butler Train alarm. Patent #157,370 June 15, 1897

S. H. Love Improvement to military guns. Patent # 1301143. 22 April 1919

S. H. Love Improve Vending Machine. Patent # 1936515 November 21, 1933

Sara E. Goode Cabinet Bed 1885

Rufus Stokes Patent #3,378,241 Exhaust Purifier April 16, 1968

Thomas Carrington Range Oven 1876

W. F. Burr Railway Switching device . Patent # 636,197 Oct.31,189

W.S. Campbell Self-setting animal trap. Patent# 246,369 August 30, 1881

W.H. Sammons Hot Comb 1920

W.S. Grant Curtain Rod Support 1896

The Super Soaker Watergun Lonnie Johnson

James A. Bauer Coin Changer
http://inventors.about.com/od/blacki...-3-490-571.htm

H. Bradberry Torpedo Discharger

Phil Brooks Dysposible Syringe

Dewey Sanderson Urinalysis Machine

WM Harwell Space Shuttle Retrieval Arm

Without, blacks, there would also be no banjo. Many modern forms of music have been strongly influenced, as a result, by indigenously black cultures (bluegrass, for example, utilizes the banjo fairly often). There would be no rock and roll, because that form of music indirectly came into existence with a lot of influence from black people.
If you are a fan of the rolling stones, led zeppelin, etc, etc, and all the other great rock bands classical and modern, then just know that at least part of the credit for that form of music’s existence does go to the same people who you seem to hate with a passion.

Let’s also not forget Jazz and Blues, two forms of music that were brought on by black America.

Christopher Chetsanga

Discovered two enzymes involved in the repair of damaged DNA:
Formamido-pyrimidine DNA glycosylase that removes damaged 7-methylguanine from DNA (1979).
DNA cyclase that recluses imidazole rings of guanine and adenine damaged by x-irradiation (1983).

Courtland Robinson developed an experimental procedure called "accelerated life testing" which is a way of testing the life time durability of a chip in just a few days; 1980, Blacks in Science, Sertima, 1983.


Ernest J. Jamieson
Retired Chemist
Brooklyn, N.Y.

During his tenure at the cities Service Oil Co. in the late '60s, Ernest J. Jamieson patented four inventions on the improvement of current gasoline compositions. One invention improved hydrocarbon fuel compositions for use in internal combustion engines by adding a detergent that prevents icing and corrosion. Another invention improved a hydrocarbon fuel composition by adding a X hydrocarbylacid phosphate salt that reduced icing in the carburetor and 1 improved water tolerance, thus reducing rust and hydrocarbon content in the exhaust.

Patricia Cowings:Analog interface design for NASA's biofeedback program.

http://www.rpi.edu/~eglash/eglash.di.../notes2_29.htm

Akintunde Ibitayo (Tayo) Akinwande:Recent accomplishments include demonstration of very low voltage operation field emission arrays using the smallest gate aperture and radius ever reported and a technique of increasing resolution and brightness of emissive displays.

http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/comp...akintunde.html

David Hedgely: Father of 3D graphics?
http://www.blackwebportal.com/wire/D...ArticleID=2132

George R. Carruthers: Carruthers will forever be remembered as principal inventor of the Far Ultraviolet Camera/Spectrograph that accompanied the Apollo 16 mission. Positioned on the moon's surface, the camera allowed researchers for the first time to examine enormous expanses for concentrations of pollutants in the Earth's atmosphere. Other cameras developed by Carruthers and his colleagues have been aboard space shuttles surveying the ozone layer and to transmit photos of distant stars and planets for computer analysis. He is also credited with helping to introduce electronic telescopes on board NASA satellites that transform light into electrical signals which are relayed to Earth and televised.

http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/phys...s-georger.html


Arthur BC Walker: In 1962 he joined the U.S. Air Force as a 1st lieutenant. His first assignment was to the Air Force Weapons Laboratory. There he was instrumental in developing instrumentation for an experiment that involved rocket launch of a satellite to measure Van Allen belt radiation in the Earth's magnetic field which affects satellite operation. This work ignited his interest in research carried out with space techniques.

Walker left the service in 1965, when his commitment was up. He then joined the Space Physics Laboratory of the Aerospace Corporation, where for 9 years he conducted pioneering physics experiments to study the sun and upper atmosphere of the Earth.

***

Arthur B. Walker started out in nuclear physics, but earned a Ph.D. in Astrophysics. From 1975 to 1985 Walker did pioneering work studying the X-ray spectrum of the solar corona and in the 1990s he lead a team of scientists who, among other things, were the first to apply normal incidence X-ray optical systems to astronomical observation. But Walker may be best known as the mentor of Sally Ride, the first female astronaut to obit the Earth, and for chairing the presidential commission that investigated the 1986 space shuttle Challenger disaster.

Walker is one of nation's bright lights in solar research. He has used his X-ray vision to see inside the sun's surface. As a solar physicist, he is a leader in the use of thin films and X-rays to study its corona. Since 1987, telescopes Walker has developed have ridden satellites into space, capturing the first pictures of that corona. In addition, Walker's penetrating long-range vision has resulted in Stanford having more minority graduate physics and applied physics students than any major research university in the country.
http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/phys..._arthurbc.html

Robert Henry Bragg Jr. Bragg has made major contributions in the areas of materials charcterization using x-ray diffraction and small angle x-ray scattering, and their use as a tool in studying heat-activated processes in materials. Early in his career, he developed methods of quantitative x-ray diffractions of compounds; e.g., Ca(OH)2 in hydous silicates. Robert Bragg originated the now-standard practice of using the data as self-calibrating in the quantitative determination of preferred orientation in polycrystalline aggregates. His work provides clear guidance in the analysis of the diffraction patterns of materials of high transparency to x-rays, e.g. Be, B, and C. His novel studies of the coarsening of the microstructure of glassy carbon using small angle x-ray scattering have provided the accepted value for the activation energy for a-direction vacancy migration in graphite. Perhaps his most important work is the recent demonstration that all apparently unordered carbon materials are mixtures of metastable carbon self-interstitial compounds, and his first principles derivation of the equations governing the phase transformations at high temperatures as these materials are converted to graphite.

http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/phys...g_roberth.html

Meredith C Gourdine: Meredith "Flash" Gourdine was an outstanding track and field athlete at Cornell University, becoming a silver medalist in the 1952 Olympics in Helsinki. He was also an excellent physicist who pioneered the research of electrogasdynamics. He was responsible for the engineering technique termed Incineraid for aiding in the removal of smoke from buildings. His work on gas dispersion developed techniques for dispersing fog from airport runways.
http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/phys...meredithc.html

Cardinal Warde jr. Cardinal Warde, a professor of electrical engineering at MIT, is considered one of the world's leading experts on materials, devices and systems for optical information processing. Warde holds ten key patents on spatial light modulators, displays, and optical information processing systems. He is a co-inventor of the microchannel spatial light modulator, membrane-mirror light shutters based on micro-electromechanical systems (MEMS), an optical bistable device, and a family of charge-transfer plate spatial light modulators
http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/phys..._cardinal.html

James E. West: West is perhaps best known, however, for his contributions to the foil-electret microphone, which he co-invented with Gerhard Sessler in 1962. Nearly 90 percent of all microphones built today are based on the principles of the foil-electret. In the electret microphone, thin sheets of polymer electret film are metal-coated on one side to form the membrane of the movable plate capacitor that converts sound to electrical signals with high fidelity. The microphone became widely used because of its high performance, accuracy, and reliability, in addition to its low cost, small size, and light weight. Ninety percent of today's microphones are electret microphones, and they are used in everyday items such as telephones, camcorders, and tape recorders. It is the most commonly used microphone in the world.

http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/phys...st_jamese.html



Below are a few inventors, their links first, then their main contributions noted after:

http://www.blackinventor.com/pages/norbertrillieux.html

He revolutionized the Sugar Industry.

http://www.blackinventor.com/pages/lewistemple.html

Revolutionized the whaling industry (not the best thing to do I guess, but still noteworthy nonetheless).

http://www.blackinventor.com/pages/janmatzeliger.html

Without him, there would have been no large scale shoe production initiated the way we have it today.

http://inventors.about.com/library/i...an_moeller.htm

Mark Dean and his co-inventor Dennis Moeller created a microcomputer system with bus control means for peripheral processing devices. Their invention paved the way for the growth in the information technology industry. We can plug into our computers peripherals like disk drives, video gear, speakers, and scanners.


http://www.blackinventor.com/pages/charlesdrew.html

http://inventors.about.com/library/i...LydaNewman.htm

She did not Invent the first hairbrush; here bursh was simply an improved version that later became the standard version utilized.

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blcarruthers.htm

George Carruthers has gained international recognition for his work which focuses on ultraviolet observations of the earth's upper atmosphere and of astronomical phenomena. Ultraviolet light is the electromagnetic radiation between visible light and x-rays. George Carruthers first major contribution to science was to lead the team that invented the far ultraviolet camera spectrograph. He developed the first moon-based space observatory, an ultraviolet camera that was carried to the moon by Apollo 16 astronauts in 1972. The camera was positioned on the moon's surface and allowed researchers to examine the Earth's atmosphere for concentrations of pollutants.
Dr. George Carruthers received a patent for his invention the "Image Converter for Detecting Electromagnetic Radiation specially in Short Wave Lengths" on November 11, 1969.

http://inventors.about.com/library/i...blgourdine.htm

Meredith Gourdine pioneered the research of electrogasdynamics. Electrogasdynamics is a way to disperse fog and smoke. By applying strong electrical forces to either you can control those elements. He was responsible for the engineering technique termed Incineraid for aiding in the removal of smoke from buildings. His work on gas dispersion developed techniques for dispersing fog from airport runways. Meredith Gourdine also created a generator that allowed for the cheaper transmission of electricity. He held more than 40 patents for various inventions

http://web.mit.edu/invent/iow/warde.html

Dr. Cardinal Warde, a professor of electrical engineering at MIT, is considered one of the world's leading experts on materials, devices and systems for optical information processing. Warde holds ten key patents on spatial light modulators, displays, and optical information processing systems. He is a co-inventor of the microchannel spatial light modulator, membrane-mirror light shutters based on micro-electromechanical systems (MEMS), an optical bistable device, and a family of charge-transfer plate spatial light modulators.

http://news-service.stanford.edu/new...lk-051805.html

More on Arthur BC Walker

http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Newsroom/X-...eopleart2.html

Dryden researcher David R. Hedgley, Jr. earned a 1999 NASA Space Act Award for his answer to the question of how to better route circuit boards. He has cut down the time for finding a route exponentially and heÍs offering his solution for free.

HedgleyÍs algorithm is so complex it required the invention of new symbols to explain the complexity of his work. Essentially what it does is give people an opportunity to enhance their routers at no cost or to use his solution as a router.

http://inventors.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.onmy.com/haynie/new%5Fpage%5F15.htm

His primary achievement has been the development of shields against gamma rays from the sun and nuclear sources. He developed mathematical models by which the amount of gamma rays absorbed by a given material may be calculated; this technique is in wide use among researchers in space and nuclear projects.

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bljosephlee.htm

Joe Lee invented the Dough Kneading Machine, which at the time, proved quite useful.

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bl_Richard_Spikes.htm

His accomplishments:

railroad semaphore (1906)
automatic car washer (1913)
automobile directional signals (1913)
- manufactured by Pierce Arrow beer keg tap (1910)
- purchased by Milwaukee Brewing Company.
self-locking rack for billiard cues (1910)
combination milk bottle opener and cover (1926)
method and apparatus for obtaining average samples and temperature of tank liquids (1931)
improved automatic gear shift (1932) - licensed the patent for $100,000 (He did not invent the first automatic gearshift; his was simply a more improved and practical version).
automatic shoe shine chair (1939)
multiple barrel machine gun (1940)
horizontally swinging barber chair (1950)
automatic safety brake (1962) - year Richard Spikes died.
Note: While Richard Spikes was working on his automatic safety brake in 1962, he lost his vision. As a result, Richard Spikes designed a drafting machine for blind people, in order to assist him in his inventing.
http://inventors.about.com/od/sstartinventors/a/Rufus_Stokes.htm

In 1968, Rufus Stokes was granted a patent on an air-purification device to reduce the gas and ash emissions of furnace and powerplant smokestack emissions. The filtered output from the stacks became almost transparent. Stokes tested and demonstrated several models of stack filters, termed the "clean air machine", in Chicago and elsewhere to show its versatility.

The system benefited the respiratory health of people, but also eased the health risks to plants and animals. A side-effect of reduced industrial stack emissions was the improved appearance and durability of buildings, cars, and objects exposed to outdoor pollution for lengthy periods

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bl_Walter_Sammons.htm

Walter Sammons of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania received U.S. patent #1,362,823 on December 21, 1920 for an improved comb that straightened hair. According to Walter Sammons' patent he invented a heated comb that removed kinks from the hair.

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blwilliampurvis.htm

Created a much improved version of the fountain pen.

Note: He did not make the first fountain pen. He created a much more practical and more commonly used version of it that came into wider usage.

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blcrosthwait.htm

Crosthwait holds 39 U.S. patents for heating systems, vacuum pumps, refrigeration methods and processes and temperature regulating devices, and 80 international patents for the same. He is well known for creating the heating system for New York's famous Radio City Music Hall and Rockerfeller Center.
Crosthwait was an expert on heat transfer, air ventilation and central air conditioning. He was the author of a manual on heating and cooling with water and guides, standards, and codes that dealt with heating, ventilation, refrigeration, and air conditioning systems. During the 1920s and 30s, he invented an improved boiler, a new thermostat control and a new differential vacuum pump, all more effective for the heating systems in larger buildings.

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blchristian.htm

John Christian was working as an Air Force, Materials Research, Engineer, when he invented and patented new lubricants, used in high flying aircraft and NASA space missions. The lubricants worked well under a wider temperature range than previous products, from minus 50 to 600 degrees. They were used in the helicoptor fuel lines, astronaut's back-pack life support systems, and in the four-wheel drive of the "moon-buggy".
Patents
6/30/1970 #3,518,189 - Grease composition for use at high temperatures and high speeds.
10/27/1970 #3,536,624 - Grease compositions of fluorocarbon polyethers thickened with polyfluorophenylene polymers.
5/12/1981 #4,267,348 - Fluorine-containing benzimidazoles
6/12/1984 #4,454,349 - Perfluoroalkylether substituted phenyl phosphines

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bl_John_Albert_Burr.htm

He did not invent the first lawn mower. His was simply an improved version that was more practical and came into more common usage.
The original versions created by a man named Edwin Budding and several others, did not come into common usage and were not as practical. This is often why Burr gets sole credit for creating the lawn mower, even though that is not truly correct.

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blhomesecurity.htm

The first video home security system was patented (patent #3,482,037) on December 2, 1969 to Marie Brown. The system used television surveillance.

Also invented a combination smoke and heat detector alarm including a self contained stored energy source in the form of a cylinder of compressed gas.

http://inventors.about.com/od/ijstartinventors/a/Ernest_Just.htm

Made major breakthroughs in the following areas of study:

egg fertilization
experimental parthenogenesis hydration
cell division
dehydration in living cells
the effects of ultraviolet rays in increasing chromosome numbers in animals
the effects of ultraviolet rays in altering the organization of the egg with reference to polarity

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blwrench1.htm

Jack Johnson invented the Wrench.

A Few More Achievements:

Nigerian breakthrough in Automotive Technology

http://news.africast.com/africastv/article.php?newsID=61045

http://www.kenyanewsnetwork.com/artman/publish/article_2426.shtml

http://www.redherring.com/Article.aspx?a=20631&hed=GM+Seeks+Green+Cred+With+Chevy+Volt

Nigerian Nobel Prize Winner

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1986/soyinka-bio.html

http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/soyinka.htm

Otis Boykin

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/18087/bio_of_inventor_otis_boykin_africanamerican.html

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blboykin.htm




Those aren't all of the achievements-there are many more than that. That is simply all that I was able to scrape together a while ago in like 25 minutes. I'll look for more later.


Name ancient inventions by China?
rudder, compass, gunpowder etc etc
Name ancient inventions by any African country?

Africans were the first to mine on a large scale(90,000 years ago, in Swaziland), they were the first to fish, and they invented the baby sling. While I'm at it, I should probably note that metallurgy in Africa arrived there prior to it's eventual arrival in northern Europe(in other words, Africans in places like Sudan were working metal before such practices ever arrived in britain, Scandinavia, etc, etc).

http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/badarians.html

hmm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_Trade

Way to go! You just cited a link that does absolutely nothing to disprove my statement!

In case you forgot, my statement was that the Sahelian Kingdoms(Mali, Songhai, Ghana) did not trade a large amount of their slaves to the Europeans. Those were different folks-the Beni, the Yoruba, and numerous Asante states closer to the coast, as well as the Kongo(in Angola).

I did not for one second hear any Vietnamese cry POOR ME about a war that was only a few years ago.

You mean 35 years ago?

Black societies are still playing the blame game over slavery and what the west has done to them hundreds of years later. YOU (society) weep and cry poor me, look what other's have done. Well our younger generation have had it in chunks! I feel that rather than moving on our kids will be having the same argument.

I told you already, I don't disagree with the fact that the blame game is no good.

I simply disagree with your characterizations and generalizations about blacks as a whole, and I will continue to as long as you foolishly continue to directly insult us without knowing what you're even actually talking about.

The only thing is in 20 yrs vietnam will have gotten on with business and the HDI will leave comparitive societies in the dust, while haiti and the like will still be blaming others!

And this is what I'm talking about. The automatic, and completely un-factually based assumption that Vietnam is going to improve, and not a single black society will do the same.

a final point to ponder, if these societies are doing so well and thriving so nicely, WHY do we need to cancel debt? Why is bono carrying on and on? Why did we not need to bail out the philipines or thailand? yet will have to bail out others?

Because they had to borrow heavily in the past. Just to show how foolish you are for not even bothering to research this subject fully:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html

Places like croatia have more debt than Angola. Argentina owes more than Sudan.
African countries are constantly paying off their debt-it's part of why they're in the situations they are in, this debt does not often get cancelled. Same story in jamaica-the government there spend a disproportionate amount of the budget paying off all of these debts.
The reason the EU is angry at China right now is because they are coming in and helping African nations cancel these debts, plus they are offering loans for free. The EU doesn't cancel debts that often-that's why they aren't happy about China doing it.

And, btw, Nigeria already paid off its debt.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4926966.stm

Note, I said paid. Not cancelled.

That's it I am done!

LOL, for your sake I hope not. That was a poor show.

Are you white? Because I have heard most of the people in South Africa are black, so it would really surprise me if a black person would talk like that about their own race.

Yes, he's a white south african, or "saffie" as some like to call them. He admitted it a little earlier in the thread.

www.smh.com.au/.../2007/06/21/1182019286794.html

Read this from only a couple of weeks ago!

I am just about to finish a Masters Degree. Our government has thrown tonnes of money to help. Black societies have almost all services free. They can do medicine on much much lower marks than my contemporaries yet as a society they fall further and further behind. People are tired of societies not progressing when given all the opportunity to go forward. My comments don't come from hate they come from observation.

Your link doesn't even work.:bash:

Good job DanteXavier, I am not surprised about Twingo's perception of blacks...I have heard that many white South Africans think the same...one would think that after all the crimes and abuses that blacks have been subjected to, there would be at least some recognition of their achievements...

^^

...There are whites Spanish and whites Mexicans so...i really don't understand :dunno:


Yes theres White Mexicans and Mestizo like me half European(Italian-Spanish) and Native Americans and we are still victms of racism,just like many others(Irish,Italians,Asians,Blacks etc.) .

Your trying to look at the problem in the basis that it has to do with skin color,yes skin color is part of it but hate and racism manifest itself in many forms,is caotic and makes no sense but the end result is the same...hate.

Just look at the Jews they look white and very organized and civilazed,yet they were also victims of racism.
Racism dosent have a face or color is a sentiment and its FEAR and fear leads to anger,hate and death.

I had a aquaintance that he was a white South African and he also would speak out in the same manner as twingo does about Blacks in hes country and how the country was now worst then wen the white minority ruled,i hope that NOT all white S.A. thing this way.


Thank You.

Marco A. Camacho Presichi

Wow, this thread is very racist. Haiti is under devloped however countries need to figure out to fix their own problems rather than rely on other countries. I think developed countries helping poorer countries only dampen the poorer countries ability to be self reliable. But cool pics.

Yes theres White Mexicans and Mestizo like me half European(Italian-Spanish) and Native Americans and we are still victms of racism,just like many others(Irish,Italians,Asians,Blacks etc.) .

Your trying to look at the problem in the basis that it has to do with skin color,yes skin color is part of it but hate and racism manifest itself in many forms,is caotic and makes no sense but the end result is the same...hate.

Just look at the Jews they look white and very organized and civilazed,yet they were also victims of racism.
Racism dosent have a face or color is a sentiment and its FEAR and fear leads to anger,hate and death.

I had a aquaintance that he was a white South African and he also would speak out in the same manner as twingo does about Blacks in hes country and how the country was now worst then wen the white minority ruled,i hope that NOT all white S.A. thing this way.


Thank You.

Marco A. Camacho Presichi

Good analysis thanks! ;)

Wow, this thread is very racist. Haiti is under devloped however countries need to figure out to fix their own problems rather than rely on other countries. I think developed countries helping poorer countries only dampen the poorer countries ability to be self reliable. But cool pics. That is not true, poor countries do need helpto start developing in a sustainable way. The amount of help the rich countries is really tiny.

Wow, this thread is very racist. Haiti is under devloped however countries need to figure out to fix their own problems rather than rely on other countries. I think developed countries helping poorer countries only dampen the poorer countries ability to be self reliable. But cool pics.

I'm not going to get into it again but if a developed country has had a role in the impoverishment of a developing country in the past then that developed country should have to pay it's 'debt' to the developing one.

,i hope that NOT all white S.A. thing this way.


Don't worry, they don't all act like twingo.

Hornieguy,i truly understand what your talking about.

I also belive is the way your raised and educated is what really make a difrence in the life of an individual and there impact on society and NOT race.

In Twingo´s defense he is just out speaking hes point of view and he remained respectfull thru all hes comments with all of us.

Im not saying that you should like what hes point of view is or agree with him.

Remember that Twingo is also a result of hes education and the way he was raised, in a hostil eviroment partly attributed to the legacy of the apartheid and racist separatist state that was South Africa,and that esence of racist belives is still carried there.

Hes also a victim,just like Blacks are of there poor eviroments.

The same happend to young Germans part of the Hitler youth wich some of them were raised to belive in certain racist ideas and propaganda that were so impregnated in there brain that they could never shake it off.

Another recent example of this took place in the United States of America, most Americans that there parents or them lived in a society before the Civil Right Movement wich excluded blacks,Asians and Mexicans most of them have that negative feeling or distrust of these races,and this just took place a few decades ago in the case of Germany it was in the 1940´s and in the U.S. late 1960´s and South Africa the most recent case in 1994.

Lets talk about this issue with a opend mind,is healthy to discuss it in a respectfull and constructive manner.

Thank You.

Marco A. Camacho Presichi.


http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/1439/260pxdurbansign1989bt9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Shot at 2007-07-19
"Petty apartheid": sign on Durban beach in English, Afrikaans and Zulu (1989)

Segregation, United States.
http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/8347/imagesgv6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Shot at 2007-07-20

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6593/whitesonlywa8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Shot at 2007-07-19


How can we be so sure that these pictures whre really shot 2007-07-19/20? you just typed it. And yeah? What about the white mexicans, white Spanish and white south africans??? Caucasian looking asians????

Back to the topic of Haiti: it is terribly unfortunate that these pictures represent the reality of life for the average Haitian.



Haiti is poorer than many African countries. I wonder what would have happened if the US, UK, Australia, Japan and others had spent USD$300 billion + on reconstructing the poorer countries in their backyards rather than waging warfare in Iraq? Or if France, Germany, Russia, China, Canada, New Zealand and other persistent critics of the US, UK, Australia and Japan stepped up to the plate and truly helped advance democracy and development in a Least Developed Country rather than criticise from the sidelines? Of course I do not expect any country to do these things, because humanity is not as noble as we like to think of ourselves.


It would be nice if most developed countries would assist this foresaken land. Unlike some members where who commented about the US solely needs to help Haiti with its poverty, it should not be all the rich countries of the world who needs to pitch in.

First of the poverty here in this country was brought about by a widespread corruptions with in their systems,political instability, power struggle, civil war and many other factors. The people of Haiti needs to be educated so they can succeed and be selfsufficient.

man i know this country is beautiful... i would like it more if u didnt post the poor pics and ugly pics..... thank you

Haiti was the first country that gained independance in South America! It is independent for more than 200 years now, I wonder what went wrong there??? Why hasn´t the country managed to get on its feet during all those centuries??? Maybe something in the moral fabric of society is wrong! It is such a shame to look at the pics and compare it to other Island nations in that region. Numerous countries in Africa that gained independence more than 150 years later than Haiti look much better and organized than Haiti.

Although I am against any sort of foreign occupation but maybe the best is that Haiti becomes a UN protectorat for a while! The country is too poor to help itself and institutions doen´t seem to work at all!

Really I am restless after skimming through those pics, I wouldn´t have expected Haiti in such a bad condition!

Twingo1, are you South African?

Dantexavier, I read some of your replies, very good and balanced!

Haiti was the first country that gained independance in South America! It is independent for more than 200 years now, I wonder what went wrong there??? Why hasn´t the country managed to get on its feet during all those centuries???


Haiti was the first and only successful slave revolt. The first free black nation. In other former colonies, the colonial powers had generally built a lot of infrastructure (political, economical, physical, etc) by the time the countries gained independence many, many years after Haiti gained its.

In 1825, France, with warships at the ready, demanded Haiti “compensate” France for its loss of a slave colony. In exchange for French recognition of Haiti as a sovereign republic, France demanded payment of 150 million francs (modern equivalent of $21.7 billion). To put this ungodly amount into perspective: In 1823 Haitian exports to France totaled 8.5 million francs, exports to England totaled 8.4 million francs, and exports to the United States totaled 13.1 million francs, for a total of 30 million francs. Although there was much corruption and political instability (due to the lack of political infrastructure) during Haiti's history, the massive dept set the tone. Haiti did not finish paying her indemnity until 1947! The US also meddled the fuck out of this country throughout the 20th century into the 21st.

streetscapers, this was ages ago, we are talking here of more than 200 years (!!!), man! There is no excuse, how can a country remain stagnant for more than 200 years! This is impossible! Moreover, External powers can´t be blamed for Haiti´s misery eternally! Have a lokk at other nation states in the region! All have developped!

streetscapers, this was ages ago, we are talking here of more than 200 years (!!!), man! There is no excuse, how can a country remain stagnant for more than 200 years!


Haiti did not finish paying her indemnity until 1947






This is impossible! Moreover, External powers can´t be blamed for Haiti´s misery eternally!

The US also meddled the fuck out of this country throughout the 20th century into the 21st


Are you saying the alternative? That external powers had nothing to do with the state of the country? :lol:







Have a lokk at other nation states in the region! All have developped!

In other former colonies, the colonial powers had generally built a lot of infrastructure (political, economical, physical, etc) by the time the countries gained independence many, many years after Haiti gained its.

Reading Comprehension > you!

It may seem intuitive to think that the earlier a country has gained its independence the more developed it should be, but that's not certainly the case. There are many other factors. Some poor countries were never colonies.

twingo1,

What do you mean when you say "black culture"??

...Black culture where?

Black American culture far-more resembles white American culture than it does, say, Congolese culture.

If you're referring to every single Black culture on Earth (which you seemingly are) then you undoubtedly believe the African race is inferior (rather than the cultures).

nice pics.. thanks

^^Welcome to this crazy forum.:D

streetscapers, all I am saying is that you can´t blame external powers eternally for the misery of one nation. Look at other Latin American countries, they suffered horribly under Spanish colonialism but their countries are in a much better shape today than Haiti even other island nations like Jamaica or Bahamas are incomaparably better, all are incomparable to Haiti! why can´t streets be kept clean 200 years after independence??? What the heck is the problem to take a broom and keep the streets neat and proper, Haiti hasn´t gone through any decade long wars or anything like that! Why can´t small private corportations/civic intiatives be formed whose aim it is to keep the streets neat and proper? Look Haiti is a tropical country, if streets are dirty it is the perfect breeding ground for all kinds of horrible disease. How can you convice somebody to invest into Haiti when streets are filled with litter and filth? tell me , what is so difficult to keep streets clean??

It's just hard to believe for some of us that this extreme can exist, and that it is not this myserable-looking in the Dominican Republic, a neighboring country on the same island, or even Cuba, a Cuba has its troubles!

Yes, I am from the DR, and I have to say it's a real pity our neighbors have to withstand this kind of poverty, we are a poor country too but at least we have had some considerable progress. I really hope Haiti finds a way out of this, for the better of the Haitian and Dominican people; the worst Haiti is the more problems we'll have in our borders.

Several Dominican Presidents have stated the need for the international community to come in Haiti’s rescue, needless is to say those requests had fallen in death ears.

Yes, I am from the DR, and I have to say it's a real pity our neighbors have to withstand this kind of poverty, we are a poor country too but at least we have had some considerable progress. I really hope Haiti finds a way out of this, for the better of the Haitian and Dominican people; the worst Haiti is the more problems we'll have in our borders.

Several Dominican Presidents have stated the need for the international community to come in Haiti’s rescue, needless is to say those requests had fallen in death ears.

I think that the Caribbean Community as a whole should do all it can to help stabilize the country. Send more peacekeepers, etc, etc. Maybe only we can help ourselves in that regard.

A stable haiti benefits greatly all of the other caribbean nations.

I stayed in New York for years and I noticed rightaway that there is a thriving TV program for Haitian expatriates. Maintaining TV program, I am sure you all know, needs financial backing. This program is on for long hours. Haitian expatriates showed that they have the requisite business acumen to engage in the corporate world. Is there any reason why the corporate backer of this TV program can't help their countrymen economically?

streetscapers, all I am saying is that you can´t blame external powers eternally for the misery of one nation.

Are you on repeat?

Are you saying the alternative? That external powers had nothing to do with the state of the country? :lol:


Look at other Latin American countries, they suffered horribly under Spanish colonialism but their countries are in a much better shape today than Haiti even other island nations like Jamaica or Bahamas are incomaparably better, all are incomparable to Haiti! why can´t streets be kept clean 200 years after independence??? What the heck is the problem to take a broom and keep the streets neat and proper, Haiti hasn´t gone through any decade long wars or anything like that! Why can´t small private corportations/civic intiatives be formed whose aim it is to keep the streets neat and proper? Look Haiti is a tropical country, if streets are dirty it is the perfect breeding ground for all kinds of horrible disease. How can you convice somebody to invest into Haiti when streets are filled with litter and filth? tell me , what is so difficult to keep streets clean??

Why aren't all the cities of the Earth clean? Are you really going to tell me that all of North America, Africa, South America, Asia is clean? Do I really need to answer why dirty areas in the world exist? Do you really think you know what all of Haiti looks like?

[/rhetorical questions]

You're right, countries with different histories are incomparable, so stop comparing them.

Guys, we really should remember that Haiti suffered for about 3 decades(a little more, actually) under the rule of one of the worst leaders ever to exist. Duvallier was right on par with the likes of Amin and Mobutu and Ceaucescu.

Haiti would be in infinitely better shape if he had never shown up.

I think that the Caribbean Community as a whole should do all it can to help stabilize the country. Send more peacekeepers, etc, etc. Maybe only we can help ourselves in that regard.

A stable haiti benefits greatly all of the other caribbean nations.

Well the ones that come illegally to our country (I am from the DR too) are at least eating and getting jobs. They don't live under the best of conditions, but at least they are eating, they can sell whatever they want, they have taken over the construction, agriculture, cane cutting, industry, they are the ones that are doing the jobs that we dominicans no longer want. I know that both presidents (Leonel Fernandez and Rene Preval) are signing agreements because we are conscious that we need cooperation so that we can both progress, they need us and we need them.

Guys, we really should remember that Haiti suffered for about 3 decades(a little more, actually) under the rule of one of the worst leaders ever to exist. Duvallier was right on par with the likes of Amin and Mobutu and Ceaucescu.

Haiti would be in infinitely better shape if he had never shown up.


I certainly agree, and not only him, there have been a host of very bad [and corrupt] leaders in Haiti's past (as I said a few posts ago).

i said i wasn't going to reply to this thread when it hit the fan but i give up.

all of you really need to chill. non-africans have mistreated us for centuries, accept it. no amount of logic, sense or superior debating skills DanteXavier is going to convince these racists that they are wrong. Many of these dutch and english people from south africa or saffies as you call them want to swear up and down that they are african but as you all have seen here in this thread that is not true.

I think that the Caribbean Community as a whole should do all it can to help stabilize the country. Send more peacekeepers, etc, etc. Maybe only we can help ourselves in that regard.

A stable haiti benefits greatly all of the other caribbean nations.

There's one thing though, the only ones who can start the healing process withing Haiti are the Haitian people themselves, no amount of money will help this Godforsaken place if the citizens continue to act the selfdestructive way thay are doing.

Long had the leading countries of the world bet on letting the DR to deal with the Haitian problem.

I feel so sorry for th people living there, I think the world should do a lot more to help countries like Haiti.We are all Humans, let's help out one another. And please, can we just have some constructive discussions instead of saying racist things like this ??? I do not believe that poverty picks on any race or any colour. All races can achieve.

But as we can see there are some very nice pictures of beaches and hotel. a small part of a country does not represent the whole country

Thank you for reading :)

There's one thing though, the only ones who can start the healing process withing Haiti are the Haitian people themselves, no amount of money will help this Godforsaken place if the citizens continue to act the selfdestructive way thay are doing.

Long had the leading countries of the world bet on letting the DR to deal with the Haitian problem.

You're right, I can't disagree with you there.

Thing is, there are far worse places than Haiti in the world...

BLACK CIVILIZATIONS OF
ANCIENT AMERICA (MUU-LAN),
MEXICO (XI)


Gigantic stone head of Negritic African
during the Olmec (Xi) Civilization
By Paul Barton

The earliest people in the Americas were people of the Negritic African race, who entered the Americas perhaps as early as 100,000 years ago, by way of the bering straight and about thirty thousand years ago in a worldwide maritime undertaking that included journeys from the then wet and lake filled Sahara towards the Indian Ocean and the Pacific, and from West Africa across the Atlantic Ocean towards the Americas.
According to the Gladwin Thesis, this ancient journey occurred, particularly about 75,000 years ago and included Black Pygmies, Black Negritic peoples and Black Australoids similar to the Aboriginal Black people of Australia and parts of Asia, including India.



Ancient African terracotta portraits 1000 B.C. to 500 B.C.
Recent discoveries in the field of linguistics and other methods have shown without a doubt, that the ancient Olmecs of Mexico, known as the Xi People, came originally from West Africa and were of the Mende African ethnic stock. According to Clyde A. Winters and other writers (see Clyde A. Winters website), the Mende script was discovered on some of the ancient Olmec monuments of Mexico and were found to be identical to the very same script used by the Mende people of West Africa. Although the carbon fourteen testing date for the presence of the Black Olmecs or Xi People is about 1500 B.C., journies to the Mexico and the Southern United States may have come from West Africa much earlier, particularly around five thousand years before Christ. That conclusion is based on the finding of an African native cotton that was discovered in North America. It's only possible manner of arriving where it was found had to have been through human hands. At that period in West African history and even before, civilization was in full bloom in the Western Sahara in what is today Mauritania. One of Africa's earliest civilizations, the Zingh Empire, existed and may have lived in what was a lake filled, wet and fertile Sahara, where ships criss-crossed from place to place.

ANCIENT AFRICAN KINGDOMS PRODUCED
OLMEC TYPE CULTURES

The ancient kingdoms of West Africa which occupied the Coastal forest belt from Cameroon to Guinea had trading relationships with other Africans dating back to prehistoric times. However, by 1500 B.C., these ancient kingdoms not only traded along the Ivory Coast, but with the Phoenicians and other peoples. They expanded their trade to the Americas, where the evidence for an ancient African presence is overwhelming. The kingdoms which came to be known by Arabs and Europeans during the Middle Ages were already well established when much of Western Europe was still inhabited by Celtic tribes. By the 5th Century B.C., the Phoenicians were running comercial ships to several West African kingdoms. During that period, iron had been in use for about one thousand years and terracotta art was being produced at a great level of craftsmanship. Stone was also being carved with naturalistic perfection and later, bronze was being used to make various tools and instruments, as well as beautifully naturalistic works of art.


The ancient West African coastal and interior Kingdoms occupied an area that is now covered with dense vegetation but may have been cleared about three to four thousand years ago. This includes the regions from the coasts of West Africa to the South, all the way inland to the Sahara. A number of large kingdoms and empires existed in that area. According to Blisshords Communications, one of the oldest empires and civilizions on earth existed just north of the coastal regions into what is today Mauritania. It was called the Zingh Empire and was highly advanced. In fact, they were the first to use the red, black and green African flag and to plant it throughout their territory all over Africa and the world.

The Zingh Empire existed about fifteen thousand years ago. The only other civilizations that may have been in existance at that period in history were the Ta-Seti civilization of what became Nubia-Kush and the mythical Atlantis civilization which may have existed out in the Atlantic, off the coast of West Africa about ten to fifteen thousand years ago. That leaves the question as to whether there was a relationship between the prehistoric Zingh Empire of West Africa and the civilization of Atlantis, whether the Zingh Empire was actually Atlantis, or whether Atlantis if it existed was part of the Zingh empire. Was Atlantis, the highly technologically sophisticated civilization an extension of Black civilization in the Meso-America and other parts of the Americas?


http://www.raceandhistory.com/images/postedD135.jpg

http://www.raceandhistory.com/images/postedD141.jpg
The above ancient stone carvings (500 t0 1000 B.C.) of Shamans of Priest-Kings clearly show distinct similarities in instruments held and purpose. The realistic carving of an African king or Oni and the stone carving of a shaman from Columbia's San Agustin Culture indicates diffusion of African religious practices to the Americas. In fact, the region of Columbia and Panama were among the first places that Blacks were spotted by the first Spanish explorers to the Americas.


From the archeological evidence gathered both in West Africa and Meso-America, there is reason to believe that the African Negritics who founded or influenced the Olmec civilization came from West Africa. Not only do the collosol Olmec stone heads resemble Black Africans from the Ghana area, but the ancient religious practices of the Olmec priests was similar to that of the West Africans, which included shamanism, the study of the Venus complex which was part of the traditions of the Olmecs as well as the Ono and Dogon People of West Africa. The language connection is of significant importance, since it has been found out through decipherment of the Olmec script, that the ancient Olmecs spoke the Mende language and wrote in the Mend script, which is still used in parts of West Africa and the Sahara to this day.

ANCIENT TRADE BETWEEN THE AMERICAS AND AFRICA

The earliest trade and commercial activities between prehistoric and ancient Africa and the Americas may have occurred from West Africa and may have included shipping and travel across the Atlantic. The history of West Africa has never been properly researched. Yet, there is ample evidence to show that West Africa of 1500 B.C. was at a level of civilization approaching that of ancient Egypt and Nubia-Kush. In fact, there were similarities between the cultures of Nubia and West Africa, even to the very similarities between the smaller scaled hard brick clay burial pyramids built for West African Kings at Kukia in
pre Christian Ghana and their counterparts in Nubia, Egypt and Meso-America.

Although West Africa is not commonly known for having a culture of pyramid-building, such a culture existed although pyramids were created for the burial of kings and were made of hardened brick. This style of pyramid building was closer to what was built by the Olmecs in Mexico when the first Olmec pyramids were built. In fact, they were not built of stone, but of hardened clay and compact earth.

Still, even though we don't see pyramids of stone rising above the ground in West Africa, similar to those of Egypt, Nubia or Mexico, or massive abilisks, collosal monuments and structures of Nubian and Khemitic or Meso-American civilization. The fact remains, they did exist in West Africa on a smaller scale and were transported to the Americas, where conditions
such as an environment more hospitable to building and free of detriments such as malaria and the tsetse fly, made it much easier to build on a grander scale.



Meso-American pyramid with stepped appearance,
built about 2500 years ago




Stepped Pyramid of Sakkara, Egypt, built over
four thousand years ago, compare to Meso-American pyramid


Large scale building projects such as monuent and pyramid building was most likely carried to the Americas by the same West Africans who developed the Olmec or Xi civilization in Mexico. Such activities would have occurred particularly if there was not much of a hinderance and obstacle to massive, monumental building and construction as there was in the forest and malaria zones of West Africa. Yet, when the region of ancient Ghana and Mauritania is closely examined, evidence of large prehistoric towns such as Kukia and others as well as various monuments to a great civilization existed and continue to exist at a smaller level than Egypt and Nubia, but significant enough to show a direct connection with Mexico's Olmec civilization.

The similarities between Olmec and West African civilization includes racial, religious and pyramid bilding similarities, as well as the similarities in their alphabets and scripts as well as both cultures speaking the identical Mende language, which was once widespread in the Sahara and was spread as far East as Dravidian India in prehistoric times as well as the South Pacific.

During the early years of West African trade with the Americas, commercial seafarers made frequent voyages across the Atlantic. In fact, the oral history of a tradition of seafaring between the Americas and Africa is part of the history of the Washitaw People, an aboriginal Black nation who were the original inhabitants of the Mississippi Valley region, the former Louisiana Territories and parts of the Southern United States. According to their oral traditions, their ancient ships criss-crossed the Atlantic Ocean between Africa and the Americas on missions of trade and commerce..

Some of the ships used during the ancient times, perhaps earlier than 7000 B.C. (which is the date given for cave paintings of the drawings and paintings of boats in the now dried up Sahara desert) are similar to ships used in parts of Africa today. These ships were either made of papyrus or planks lashed with rope, or hollowed out tree trunks.

These ancient vessels were loaded with all type of trade goods and not only did they criss-cross the Atlantic but they traded out in the Pacific and settled there as well all the way to California. In
fact, the tradition of Black seafarers crossing the Pacific back and forth to California is much older than the actual divulgance of that fact to the first Spanish explorers who were told by the American Indians that Black men with curly hair made trips from California's shores to the Pacific on missions of trade.

On the other hand, West African trade with the Americas before Columbus and way back to proto historic times (30,000 B.C. to 10,000 B.C.), is one of the most important chapters in ancient African history. Yet, this era which begun about 30,000 years ago and perhaps earlier (see the Gladwin Thesis, by C.S.Gladwin, Mc Graw Hill Books), has not been part of the History of Blacks in the Americas. Later on in history, particularly during the early Bronze Age.

However, during the latter part of the Bronze Age, particularly between 1500 B.C. to 1000 B.C., when the Olmec civilization began to bloom and flourish, new conditions in the Mediterranean made it more difficult for West Africans to trade by sea with the region, although their land trade accross the Sahara was flourishing. By then, Greeks, Phoenicians, Assyrians, Babylonians and others were trying to gain control of the sea routes and the trading ports of the region. Conflicts in the region may have pushed the West Africans to strengthen their trans-Atlantic trade with the Americas and to explore and settle there.


http://www.raceandhistory.com/images/postedD142.jpg

Meso-American pyramid with stepped appearance,
built about 2500 years ago

http://www.raceandhistory.com/images/postedD143.jpg
Stepped Pyramid of Sakkara, Egypt, built over
four thousand years ago, compare to Meso-American pyramid

Large scale building projects such as monuent and pyramid building was most likely carried to the Americas by the same West Africans who developed the Olmec or Xi civilization in Mexico. Such activities would have occurred particularly if there was not much of a hinderance and obstacle to massive, monumental building and construction as there was in the forest and malaria zones of West Africa. Yet, when the region of ancient Ghana and Mauritania is closely examined, evidence of large prehistoric towns such as Kukia and others as well as various monuments to a great civilization existed and continue to exist at a smaller level than Egypt and Nubia, but significant enough to show a direct connection with Mexico's Olmec civilization.

The similarities between Olmec and West African civilization includes racial, religious and pyramid bilding similarities, as well as the similarities in their alphabets and scripts as well as both cultures speaking the identical Mende language, which was once widespread in the Sahara and was spread as far East as Dravidian India in prehistoric times as well as the South Pacific.

During the early years of West African trade with the Americas, commercial seafarers made frequent voyages across the Atlantic. In fact, the oral history of a tradition of seafaring between the Americas and Africa is part of the history of the Washitaw People, an aboriginal Black nation who were the original inhabitants of the Mississippi Valley region, the former Louisiana Territories and parts of the Southern United States. According to their oral traditions, their ancient ships criss-crossed the Atlantic Ocean between Africa and the Americas on missions of trade and commerce..

Some of the ships used during the ancient times, perhaps earlier than 7000 B.C. (which is the date given for cave paintings of the drawings and paintings of boats in the now dried up Sahara desert) are similar to ships used in parts of Africa today. These ships were either made of papyrus or planks lashed with rope, or hollowed out tree trunks.

These ancient vessels were loaded with all type of trade goods and not only did they criss-cross the Atlantic but they traded out in the Pacific and settled there as well all the way to California. In
fact, the tradition of Black seafarers crossing the Pacific back and forth to California is much older than the actual divulgance of that fact to the first Spanish explorers who were told by the American Indians that Black men with curly hair made trips from California's shores to the Pacific on missions of trade.

On the other hand, West African trade with the Americas before Columbus and way back to proto historic times (30,000 B.C. to 10,000 B.C.), is one of the most important chapters in ancient African history. Yet, this era which begun about 30,000 years ago and perhaps earlier (see the Gladwin Thesis, by C.S.Gladwin, Mc Graw Hill Books), has not been part of the History of Blacks in the Americas. Later on in history, particularly during the early Bronze Age.

However, during the latter part of the Bronze Age, particularly between 1500 B.C. to 1000 B.C., when the Olmec civilization began to bloom and flourish, new conditions in the Mediterranean made it more difficult for West Africans to trade by sea with the region, although their land trade accross the Sahara was flourishing. By then, Greeks, Phoenicians, Assyrians, Babylonians and others were trying to gain control of the sea routes and the trading ports of the region. Conflicts in the region may have pushed the West Africans to strengthen their trans-Atlantic trade with the Americas and to explore and settle there.
http://www.raceandhistory.com/images/postedD150.jpg

West African Trade and Settlement in the Americas Increases Due to Conflicts in the Mediterranean
The flowering of the Olmec Civilization occurred between 1500 B.C. to 1000 B.C., when over twenty-two collosal heads of basalt were carved representing the West African Negritic racial type.
This flowering continued with the appearance of "Magicians," or Shamanistic Africans who observed and charted the Venus planetary complex (see the pre-Christian era statuette of a West African Shaman in the photograph above)
These "Magicians," are said to have entered Mexico from West Africa between 800 B.C. to 600 B.C. and were speakers of the Mende language as well as writers of the Mende script or the Bambara script, both which are still used in parts of West Africa and the Sahara.

These Shamans who became the priestly class at Monte Alban during the 800's to 600's B.C. ( ref. The History of the African-Olmecs and Black Civilization of the Americas From Prehistoric Times to the Present Era), had to have journied across the Atlantic from West Africa, for it is only in West Africa, that the religious practices and astronomical and religious practices and complex (Venus, the Dogon Sirius observation and the Venus worship of the Afro-Olmecs, the use of the ax in the worship of Shango among he Yoruba of West Africa and the use of the ax in Afro-Olmec worship as well as the prominence of the thunder God later known as Tlalock among the Aztecs) are the same as those practiced by the Afro-Olmec Shamans. According to Clyde Ahmed Winters (see "Clyde A. Winters" webpage on "search."

Thus, it has been proven through linguistic studies, religious similarities, racial similarities between the Afro-Olmecs and West Africans, as well as the use of the same language and writing script, that the Afro-Olmecs came from the Mende-Speaking region of West Africa, which once included the Sahara.

Sailing and shipbuilding in the Sahara is over twenty thousand years old. In fact, cave and wall paintings of ancient ships were displayed in National Geographic Magazine some years ago. Such ships which carried sails and masts, were among the vessels that swept across the water filled Sahara in prehistoric times. It is from that ship-building tradition that the Bambara used their knowledge to build Thor Hayerdhal's papyrus boat Ra I which made it to the West Indies from Safi in Morroco years ago. The Bambara are also one of the West African nationalities who had and still have a religious and astronomical complex similar to that of the ancient Olmecs, particularly in the area of star gazing.

A journey across the Atlantic to the Americas on a good current during clement weather would have been an easier task to West Africans of the Coastal and riverine regions than it would have been through the use of caravans criss-crossing the hot by day and extremely cold by night Sahara desert. It would have been much easier to take a well made ship, similar to the one shown above and let the currents take it to the West Indies, and may have taken as long as sending goods back and forth from northern and north-eastern Africa to the interior and coasts of West Africa's ancient kingdoms. Add to that the fact that crossing the Sahara would have been no easy task when obsticales such as the hot and dusty environment, the thousands of miles of dust, sand and high winds existed. The long trek through the southern regions of West Africa through vallies, mountains and down the many rivers to the coast using beasts of burden would have been problematic particularly since malaria mosquitoes harmful to both humans and animals would have made the use of animals to carry loads unreliable.

Journeys by ship along the coast of West Africa toward the North, through the Pillars of Heracles,
eastward on the Mediterran to Ports such as Byblos in Lebanon, Tyre or Sydon would have been two to three times as lengthy as taking a ship from Cape Verde, sailing it across the Atlantic and landing in North-Eastern Brazil fifteen hundred miles away, or Meso America about 2400 miles away. The distance in itself is not what makes the trip easy. It is the fact that currents
which are similar to gigantic rivers in the ocean, carry ships and other vessels from West Africa to the Americas with relative ease.

West Africans during the period of 1500 B.C. to 600 B.C. up to 1492 A.D. may have looked to the Americas as a source of trade, commerce and a place to settle and build new civlilzations. During the period of 1500 B.C. to 600 B.C., there were many conflicts in the Mediterranean involving the Kushites, Egyptians, Assyrians, Phoenicians, Sea Peoples, Persians, Jews and others. Any kingdom or nation of that era who wanted to conduct smoothe trade without complications would have tried to find alternative trading partners. In fact, that was the very reason why the Europeans decided to sail westwared in their wearch for India and China in 1492 A.D. They were harrassed by the Arabs in the East and had to pay heavy taxes to pass through the region.

Still, most of the Black empires and kingdoms such as Kush, Mauri, Numidia, Egypt, Ethiopia and others may have had little difficulty conducting trade among their neighbors since they also were among the major powers of the region who were dominant in the Mediterranean.
South of this northern region to the south-west, Mauritania (the site of the prehistoric Zingh Empire) Ghana, and many of the same nationalities who ushered in the West African renaissance of the early Middle Ages were engaged in civilizations and cultures similar to those of Nubia, Egypt and the Empires of the Afro-Olmec or Xi (Shi) People.


Nubian-Kushite King and Queen (circa 1000 B.C.)
It is believed that there was a Nubian presence in Mexico and that the West African civilizations were related to that of the Nubians, despite the distance between the two centers of Black civilization in Africa. There is no doubt that in ancient times there were commercial ties between West Africa and Egypt. In fact, about 600 B.C., Nikau, a Pharaoh of Egypt sent ships to circumnavigate Africa and later on about 450 B.C., Phoenicians did the same, landing in West Africa in the nation now called Cameroon. There they witnessed what may have been the celebration of a Kwanza-like harvest festival, where "cymbals, horns," and other instruments as well as smoke and fire from buring fields could be seen from their ships.
http://www.raceandhistory.com/images/postedD151.jpg

At that period in history, the West African cultures and civilizations, which were offshoots of much earlier southern Saharan cultures, were very old compared to civilizations such as Greece or Babylon. In fact, iron was being used by the ancient West Africans as early as 2600 years B.C. and was so common that there was no "bronze age" in West Africa, although bronze was used for ornaments and instruments or tools.

A combination of Nubians and West Africans engaged in mutual trade and commerce along the coasts of West Africa could have planned many trips to and from the Americas and could have conducted a crossing about 1500 B.C. and afterwards. Massive sculptures of the heads of typical Negritic Africans were carved in the region of South Mexico where the Olmec civilization flourished. Some of these massive heads of basalt contain the cornrow hairstyle common among West African Blacks, as well as the kinky coiled hair common among at least 70 percent of all Negritic people, (the other proportion being the Dravidian Black race of India and the Black Australoids of Australia and South Asia).
http://www.raceandhistory.com/images/postedD144.jpg
Collossol Afro-Olmec head of basalt wearing
Nubian type war helmet, circa 1100 B.C

Afro-Olmecs Came from the Mende Regions of West Africa
Although archeologists have used the name "Olmec," to refer to the Black builders of ancient Mexico's first civilizations, recent discoveries have proven that these Afro-Olmecs were West Africans of the Mende language and cultural group. Inscriptions found on ancient monuments in parts of Mexico show that the script used by the ancient Olmecs was identical to that used by the ancient and modern Mende-speaking peoples of West Africa. Racially, the collosal stone heads are identical in features to West Africans and the language deciphered on Olmec monuments is identical to the Mende language of West Africa, (see Clyde A. Winters) on the internet.

The term "Olmec" was first used by archeologists since the giant stone heads with the features of West African Negritic people were found in a part of Mexico with an abundance of rubber trees. The Maya word for rubber was "olli, and so the name "Olmec," was used to label the Africoid Negritic people represented in the faces of the stone heads and found on hundreds of terracotta figurines throughout the region.

Yet, due to the scientific work done by deciphers and linguists, it has been found out that the ancient Blacks of Mexico know as Olmecs, called themselves the Xi People (She People).
Apart from the giant stone heads of basalt, hundreds of terracotta figurines and heads of people of Negritic African racial reatures have also been found over the past hundred years in Mexico and other parts of Meso-America as well as the ancient Black-owned lands of the Southern U.S. (Washitaw Proper,(Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Arkansas), South America's Saint Agustin Culture in the nation of Colombia, Costa Rica, and other areas) the "Louisiana Purchase,"
lands, the south-eastern kingdom of the Black Jamassee, and other places including Haiti, see
the magazine Ancient American).

Various cultural clues and traces unique to Africa as well as the living descendants of prehistoric and ancient African migrants to the Americas continue to exist to this very day. The Washitaw Nation of Louisiana is one such group (see www.Hotep.org), the Garifuna or Black Caribs of the Caribbean and Central America is another, the descendants of the Jamasse who live in Georgia and the surrounding states is another group. There are also others such as the Black Californian of Queen Calafia fame (the Black Amazon Queen mentioned in the book Journey to Esplandian, by Ordonez de Montalvo during the mid 1500's).

Cultural artefacts which connect the ancient Blacks of the Americas with Africa are many. Some of these similarities can be seen in the stone and terracotta works of the ancient Blacks of the Americas. For example, the African hairline is clearly visible in some stone and terracotta works, including the use of cornrows, afro hair style, flat "mohawk" style similar to the type used in Africa, dreadlocks, braided hair and even plain kinky hair. The African hairline is clearly visible on a fine stone head from Veracruz Mexico, carved between 600 B.C. to 400 B.C., the Classic Period of Olmec civilization. That particular statuette is about twelve inches tall and the distance from the head to the chin is about 17 centemeters. Another head of about 12 inches, not only posesses Negroid features, but the hair design is authentically West African and is on display at the National Museum of Mexico. This terracotta Africoid head also wears the common disk type ear plugs common in parts of Africa even today among tribes such as the Dinka and Shilluk.

One of the most impressive pieces of evidence which show a direct link between the Black Olmec or Xi People of Mexico and West Africans is the presence of scarification marks on some Olmec terracotta sculpture. These scarification marks clearly indicate a West African Mandinka (Mende) presence in prehistoric and ancient Meso-America. Ritual scarification is still practiced in parts of Africa and among the Black peoples of the South Pacific, however the Olmec scarification marks are not of South Pacific or Melanesian Black origins, since the patterns used on ancient Olmec sculpture is still common in parts of Africa. This style of scarification tatooing is still used by the Nuba and other Sudanese African people. In fact, the face of a young girl with keloid scarification on here face is identical to the very same keloid tatoos on the face of an ancient Olmec terracotta head from ancient Mexico. Similar keloid tattoos also appear on the arms of some Sudanese and are identical to similar keloid scars on the arms of some clay figures from ancient Olmec terracotta figurines of Negroid peoples of ancient Mexico.http://www.raceandhistory.com/images/postedD147.jpg
Collosal head of Afro-Olmec (Xi) warrior-king, circa 1100 B.C

Descendants of Ancient Africans in Recent America
In many parts of the Americas today, there are still people of African Negritic racial backgrounds who continue to exist either blended into the larger African-Americas population or are parts of separate, indigenous groups living on their own lands with their own unique culture and languages.

One such example is the Washitaw Nation who owned about one million square miles of the former Louisiana Territories, (see www.Hotep.org), but who now own only about 70,000 acres of all their former territory. The regaining of their lands from the U.S. was a long process which concluded partially in 1991, when they won the right to their lands in a U.S. court.

The Black Californian broke up as a nation during the late 1800's after many years of war with the Spanish invaders of the South West, with Mexico and with the U.S. The blended into the Black population of California and their descendants still exist among the millions of Black Californians of today.

The Black Caribs or Garifunas of the Caribbean Islands and Central America fought with the English and Spanish from the late fifteen hundreds up to 1797, when the British sued for peace. The Garifuna were expelled from their islands but they prospered in Central America where hundreds of thousands live along the coasts today.

The Afro-Darienite is a significant group of pre-historic, pre-columbian Blacks who existed in South America and Central America. These Blacks were the Africans that the Spanish first saw during their exploration of the narrow strip of land between Columbia and Central America and who were described as "slaves of our lord" since the Spaniards and Europeans had the intention of enslaving all Blacks they found in the newly discovered lands.

The above mentioned Blacks of precolumbian origins are not Blacks wo mixed with the Mongoloid Indian population as occurred during the time of slavery. They were Blacks who were in some cases on their lands before the southward migrations of the Mongoloid Native Americans. In many cases, these Blacks had established civilizations in the Americas thousands of years ago.


http://www.raceandhistory.com/images/postedD119.jpg
An early Black Californian, a member of the original Black
aboriginal people of California and the South Western U.S

http://www.raceandhistory.com/images/postedD138.jpg
A member of one of the original Black nations of the Americas,
the Afro-Darienite of Panama.
http://www.raceandhistory.com/images/postedD139.jpg
Stone carving of Negroid person found in area
close to Washitaw Territories, Southern U.S

THE USE OF ANCIENT AFRICAN SHIPS AND BOATS TO TRADE WITH THE AMERICAS
Protohistoric, prehistoric and ancient Negritic Africans were masters of the lands as well as the oceans. They were the first shipbuilders on earth and had to have used watercraft to cross from South East Asia to Australia about 60,000 years ago and from the West Africa/Sahara inland seas region to the Americas. The fact of the northern portion of Africa now known as a vast desert wasteland being a place of large lakes, rivers and fertile regions with the most ancient of civilizations is a fact that has been verified, (see African Presence in Early America, edt. Ivan Van Sertima and Runoko Rashidi, Transaction Publishers, New Bruinswick, NJ "The Principle of Polarity," by Wayne Chandler: 1994.)

From that region of Africa as well as East Africa, diffusions of Blacks towards the Americas as early as 30,000 B.C. are believed to have occurred based on findings in a region from Mexico to Brazil which show that American indians in the region include Negritic types (eg. Olmecs, Afro-Darienite, Black Californians, Chuarras, Garifunas and others). Much earlier journeys occurred by land sometime before 75,000 B.C. according to the Gladwin Thesis written by C.S. Gladwin. This migration occurred on the Pacific side of the Americas and was began by Africans with Affinities similar to the people of New Guinea, Tasmania, Solomon Islands and Australia. The earliest migrations of African Blacks through Asia then to the Americas seemed to have occurred exactly during the period that the Australian Aborigines and the proto-African ancestors of the Aborigines, Oceanic Negroids (Fijians, Solomon Islanders, Papua-New Guineans,and so on) and other Blacks spread throughout East Asia and the Pacific Islands about one hundred thousand years ago. The fact that these same Blacks are still among the world's seafaring cultures and still regard the sea as sacred and as a place of sustinence is evidence of their ancient dependance on the sea for travel and exploration as well as for commerce and trade. Therefore, they would have had to build sea-worthy ships and boats to take them across the vast expanses of ocean, including the Atlantic, Indian Ocean (both the Atlantic and Indian Oceans were called the Ethiopean Sea, in the Middle Ages) and the Pacific Ocean.

During the historic period close to the early bronze or copper using period of world history (6000 B.C. to 4000 B.C. migrations of Africans from the Mende regions of West Africa and the Sahara across the Atlantic to the Americas may have occurred. In fact, the Mende agricultural culture was well established in West Africa and the Sahara during that period. Boats still criss-crossed the Sahara, as they had been doing for over ten thousand years previously. The ancient peoples of the Sahara, as rock paintings clearly show, were using boats and may have sailed from West Africa and the Sahara to the Americas, including the Washitaw territories of the Midwestern and Southern U.S. Moreover, it is believed by the aboriginal Black people of the former Washitaw Empire who still live in the Southern U.S., that about 6000 B.C., there was a great population shift from the region of Africa and the Pacific ocean, which led to the migrations of their ancestors to the Americas to join the Blacks who had been there previously.

As for the use of ships, ancient Negritic peoples and the original Negroid peoples of the earth may have began using boats very early in human history. Moreover, whatever boats were used did not have to be sophisticated or of huge size. In fact, the small, seaworthy "outrigger" canoe may have been spread from East Africa to the Indian Ocean and the Pacific by the earliest African migrants to Asia and the Pacific regions. Boats of papyrus, skin, sewed plank, log and hollowed logs were used by ancient Africans on their trips to various parts of the world.


http://www.raceandhistory.com/images/postedD136.jpg
Gigantic stone head of Afro-Olmec (Xi People)
of ancient Mexico, circa 1100 B.C.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/images/postedD145.jpg
Face of Afro-Olmec child carved on the waste "belt" of an Olmec ballplayer

This stone belt was used by the Olmec ballplayers to catch the impact of the rubber balls in their ball games. This face is typical Negritic, including the eyes which seem to "slant," a common racial characteristic in West Africa, the Sahara and in South Africa among the Kong-San (Bushmen) and other Africans.


TRADE ROUTES OF THE ANCIENT BLACKS
During the years of migrations of Africans to all parts of the world, those who crossed the Atlantic, Indian Ocean and Pacific also used the seas to make trips to the northern parts of Africa. They may have avoided the northern routes across the deserts at particular times of the year and sailed northward by sailing parallel to the coastslines on their way northward or southward, just as the Phoenicians, Nubians and Egyptians had done.
Boats made of skin, logs, hollowed ttee trunk, lashed canoes and skin could have been used for trading and commerce.

The reed boat is a common type of watercraft used in West Africa and other parts of the world, yet there were other boats and ships to add to those already mentioned above. Boats similar to those of Nubia and Egypt were being used in the Sahara just as long or even longer than they were being used in Egypt. In fact, civilization in the Sahara and Sudan existed before Egypt was settled by Blacks from the South and the Sahara.

The vessels which crossed the Atlantic about 1500 B.C. (during the early Afro-Olmec period) were most likely the same types of ships shown in the sahara cave paintings of ships dating to about 7,000 B.C. or similar ships from Nubian rock carvings of 3000 B.C..

Egyptologists such as Sir Flinders Petrie believed that the ancient African drawings of ships represent papyrus boats similar to the one built by the Bambara People for Thor Hayerdhal on the shores of Lake Chad. This boat made it to Barbadose, however they did not reinforce the hull with rope as the ancient Egyptians and Nubians did with their ancient ships. That lack of reinforcement made the Bambara ship weak, however another papyrus ship built by Ayamara Indians in Lake Titicaca, Bolivia was reinforced and it made it to the West Indies without difficulty.

Naval historian Bjorn Landstrom believes that some of the curved hulls shown on rock art and pottery from the Nubian civilization (circa 3000 B.C.) point to a basic three-plank idea. The planks would have been sewn together with rope. The larer version must have had some interior framing to hold them together. The hulls of some ot these boats show the vertical extension of the bow and stern which may have been to keep them bouyant.

These types of boats are stilll in use in one of the most unlikely places. The Djuka and Saramaka Tribes of Surinam, known also as 'Bush Negroes,"
build a style of ship and boat similar to that of the Ancient Egyptians and Nubians, with their bows and sterns curving upward and pointing vertically.

This style of boat is also a common design in parts of West Africa, particularly along the Niger River where extensive river trading occurs. They are usually carved from a single tree trunk which is used as the backbone. Planks are then fitted alongside to enlarge them. In all cases, cabins are built on top of the interior out of woven mat or other strong fiberous material. These boats are usually six to eight feet across and about fifty feet long. There is evidence that one African Emperor Abubakari of Mali used these "almadias" or longboats to make a trip to the Americas during the 1300's.(see, They Came Before Columbus, Ivan Van Sertima; Random House: 1975)

Apart from the vessels used by the West Africans and south western Sahara Black Africans to sail across the Atlantic to the Americas, Nubians, Kushites, Egyptians and Ethiopians were known traders in the Mediterranean. The Canaanites, the Negroid inhabitants of the Levant who later became the Phoenicians also were master seafarers. This has caused some to speculate that the heads of the Afro-Olmecs represent the heads of servants of the Phoenicians, yet no dominant people would build such massive and collosol monuments to their servants and not to themselves.

Check for historical references and literature

ANTHROPOLOGISTS BELIEVE THERE WAS AN ANCIENT BLACK PRESENCE IN THE AMERICAS


During the International Congress of American Anthropologists held in Bacelona, Spain in 1964, a French anthropologist pointed out that all that was missing to prove a definite presence of Negritic Blacks in the Americas before Columbus was Negroid skeletons to add to the already found Negroid featured terracottas. Later on February of 1975 skeletons of Negroid people dating to the 1200's were found at a precolumbian grave in the Virgin Islands. Andrei Wierzinski, the Polish crainologist also concluded based on the study of skeletons found in Mexico, that a good portion of the skulls were that of Negritic Blacks,

Based on the many finds for a Black African Negroid presence in ancient Mexico, some of the most enthusiastic proponents of a pre-columbian Black African presence in Mexico are Mexican professionals. They conclude that Africans must have established early important trading centers on the coasts along Vera Cuz, from which Middle America's first civiliztion grew.

In retrospect, ancient Africans did visit the Americas from as early as about 100,000 B.C. where they stayed for tens of thousands of years. By 30,000 B.C., to about 15,000 B.C., a massive migration from the Sahara towards the Indian Ocean and the Pacific in the East occurred from the Sahara. Blacks also migrated Westward across the Atlantic Ocean towards the Americas during that period until the very eve of Columbus' first journey to the Americas.

Trade, commerce and exploration as well as the search for new lands when the Sahara began to dry up later in history was the catalyst that drove the West Africans towards the Atlantic and into the Americas.

REFERENCES


Washitaw Nation (www.Hotep.org)

Clyde A. Winters (The Nubians and the Olmecs)

Blacks of India dalitstan.org

Blacks of the Pacific and Melanesia:
www.cwo.com/~lucumi/pacific.html

If you ever visit the ancient Afro-Olmec monuments of Mexico, the Washitaw Nation of Louisiana, the monuments of Nubia, Egypt or West Africa you need to take great pictures:
www.photoalley.com



DESCENDANTS OF PRECOLUMBIAN BLACKS IN THE U.S., CARIBBEAN, CENTRAL AMERICA AND SOUTH AMERICA AND THE FIGHT FOR THE RETURN OF THEIR STOLEN OCCUPIED LANDS
IN THE MIDST OF THE REPARATIONS DEBATE THE ISSUE OF RETURNING THE LANDS OF THESE BLACKS WHO ANCESTORS WERE HERE IN THE U.S. AND AMERICAS BEFORE COLUMBUS HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE WITH ONE BLACK NATION OF THE LOUISIANA TERRITORIES


The experience of the Washitaw Nation (or Ouchita Nation) of the Southern United States is another piece of solid evidence for the fact of pre-Columbian African presence and settlement in the Americas and specifically in the United States. According to an article carried in the magazine, 'The Freedom Press Newsletter, (Spring, 1996), reprinted from Earthways, The Newsleter of the Sojourner Truth Farm School (August, 1995), the Washitaw were
(and still are) a nation of Africans who existed in the Southern U.S. and Mississippi Valley region long before the 16th century Europeans arrived and even before there were "Native Americans" on the lands the Washitaw once occupied and still occupy today.

According to the article, "the Washitaw Nation "governed three million acres of land in Louisiana,
Arkansas, Oklahoma, Texas and Mississippi. They were ship builders (similar to the Garifuna of the Caribbean, who are also of pre-Columbian West Afrucan Mandinka Muslim origins (according to Harold Lawrence in 'African Presence in Early America,edt. by Ivan Van Sertima).

What is even more facinating about this aspect of hidden history of Blacks in America before Columbus is that the Washitaw Nation was known and recognized as a separate, independant Black nation by the Spanish and French, who were in the Louisiana Territories and Texas areas. According to the present leader of the Washitaw Nation, "when Spain ceeded the Louisiana Territory to France, they excluded the land belonging to the Washitaw Nation. France did not include it in the "Louisiana Purchase," and according to the leader, "This land
is not part of the United States of America." That point was made in the newspaper, "The Capitol Spotlight, June 1992.

In fact, the courts agreed that the land was not part of the U.S. and that in fact the Washitaw (Ouchita) Nation was on the land long before European Colonization: therefore, in legal decisions made, some of the ancient territory was returned. This historical decision was made about 1991.

This is the type of information seldom seen in the majority press, yet, the importance of that event clearly points to the incredible service small papers and magazines such as Ancient American or the Capitol Spotlight and The Freedom Press Newsletter have been making, along iwth internet news and information sites such as this one. So, here we see an example in the continental United States where Africans who came before slavery, before Columbus and thousands of years before Christ (over six thousand years B.C., according to the Washitaw chroniclers), were engaged in boat building, seafaring, trade and commerce in ancient times and who still exist today as a distinct Black Nation who have evidence and proof of their ownership of millions of acres of lands in the Southern U.S. and the Mississippi Valley. The Washitaw Nation held an important convention in June 1992, in Monroe, Louisiana and have held others since. (see www.Hotep.org for the Washitaw's point of view on their history and culture).

Yet, the Washitaw is merely one nation of the descendants of pre-columbian Blacks from Africa and elsewhere and possibly from right here in the Americas as the very first people to exist here, long before the development of the Mongoloid, American Indians or the Mongoloid( 15,000 B.C.) or even the Caucasian races (30,000 B.C.). Pure Black Homosapiens began to migrate from Africa and populate the entire earth about 200,000 to 150,000 years ago, according to scientists, historians and anthropologists.

Among the other Black nations who existed in the Americas before Columbus and long before Christ were the Jamassee (Yamassee), who had a large kingdom in the South eastern U.S., Their descendants were among the first Blacks of pre-columbian American origins who fell victim to kidnapping for the purpose of enslavement. Blacks of South America, the Caribbean and Central America were also attacked and enslaved based on a Pontifax passed during the mid- 1400's by the Church hierachy giving the Europeans the go ahead to enslave all "Children of Ham" found in the newly discovered territories. The descendants of the Jamassee are the millions of Blacks who live in Alabama, Gerogia, South Carolina and northern Florida. They of course also have African slave ancestors, but these slaves are the relatives of the same Africans who sailed to America of their own free will, while Europe was in the Dark Ages, and long before Christ, for that matter.

In California, descendnats of the fierce "Black Californians" who were a Negroid people of African racial origins and the original owners of California and the South WEST (BEFORE THE SPANISH INVSION...OR THE CREATION OF THE MIXED RACE "HISPANIC" ETHNIC GROUP.
Many African-Americans in California are of Black Californian ancestry and their great grand parents were among the original Black Californians who were victims of Spanish Californio enslavement and Anglo American settler attacks. In fact, the Black Californian fought until the late 1800's to maintain control of their ancestral lands from the settlers. THAT'S A FACT.

There are aboriginal nations of Blacks in Panama such as the Afro-Darienite and the Choco people.
In fact, the Afro-Darienite are the remnants of the aboriginal Black nations of South and Central America who were once hunted down to be made slaves by the Spaniards (in fact Balboa or Peter Matyr chroniclers referred to these Blacks as "slaves of our lord," ) meaning, like Blacks in Africa, the South Pacific and elsewhere, they were eligible for enslavement, being descended from Ham, the so-called "father of the Black race."

In Columbia's Choco Region, on the Western side of that country, there are hundreds of thousands of Blacks, whose ancestors have been in Columbia for thousands of years. In fact, scientists and some historians have found out that Black slaves were being kidnapped and hunted down in Columbia and parts of South and Central America, as well as the Caribbean and U.S., by the Spaniards and others long before they began to look for slaves in Africa. (an old painting in Natonal Geographic clearly shows a black with bow and arrow and wearing a loin cloth, hunting along the coast of Columbia during the first voyage there by the Spaniards.
These Blacks today of the Choco Region of Columbia are among the most oppressed of Blacks in Latin America today (See the Final Call back issues on this topic)

Then there is the Garifuna or Kalifunami also called "Black Caribs" Being a member of the Black Carib Nation and having done historical research, the myth of the Black Caribs being escaped slaves has been debunked. It is true that the Black Caribs encouraged slaves from the West Indies Islands to join them and that the Black Caribs did ally with the Mongoloid Caribs of Dominica and other parts of the West Indies, but the fact remains, that the Black Caribs were originally Mende traders of gold and cloth, who established settlements throughout the Circum-Caribbean region, Mexico, Central America, South America and the Southern U.S.
They had been arriving in the Americas for thousands of years, even before they converted to Islam during the 900's A.D.. In fact, the Olmecs of ancient Mexico were Mende, they used the Mende script (found on monments at Monte Alban, Mexico, and they named places from southern Mexico to South America with Mandinka names. Such names sometimes sound identical to the names of places used in West Africa.

In retrospect, while the debate for reparations increses, it is important that African-Americans know that two great injustices were committed by the Europeans. The first was slavery, the second was the taking of Black lands and destroying Black history and culture so Blacks remain totally ignorant of their rights to more than one third of north America. NOW YOU KNOW WHY THE SLAVEMASTERS DID NOT WANT BLACK FOLK TO LEARN TO READ, AND WHY PLANTS ARE PLACED IN CHATROOMS AND ON FORUMS TO ATTEMPT TO DISCREDIT ANY USEFUL HISTORY AND INFORMATION OFFERED TO BLACK PEOPLE.

Still, TRUTH SUBMERGED SHALL RISE AGAIN.


SUSU ECONOMICS

THE HISTORY OF PAN-AFRICAN TRADE, COMMERE, WEALTH AND MONEY
(A Preview of the Facinating History of the Development of Ancient Black Civilizations Worldwide)

One of the most important aspects of Black history worldwide is the development of Black civilization due to the early and persisten use and application of trade and commerce. Due to such early and well organized trading and commercial systems throughout the prehistoric Black world, Blacks were able to expand throughout the world and establish the world's first cultures and civilizations. Although it is said that Blacks migrated from the original homeland of mankind in Africa to settle all Asia, Europe, Australia and the Americas (see Scientific American; Sept. 2000, p. 80-87...this is a recent publication), long before the differentiation of the races from the original Negritic to Negriic, Caucasoid, Mongoloid, along with the various mixed races such as Polynesians, Native Americans, Japanese, Malays, Mediterranean whites, East Indians (the mixed Negroid/Caucasian type...not the pure Black pre Aryan Negritic Indians), Arabs, Latinos (Mestizos, Mullatoes, Zambos, Spaniards) and a number of other mixed races and regional types, the purpose of the earlies migrations of Blacks from Africa to the rest of the world was not merely following and hunting wild animals, as some theorists have claimed, but searching for commodities, like red ocre to paint the smooth, dark skin from insects and decoration. Another purpose for the early migrations of Africans to other parts of the world was to establish trading and commercial links to those of their own people, who had left previously. Hence, even if the earliest migrations were after wandering herds of animals, further migrations were in search of links with their kinsmen and women.


The migrations of Africans to all parts of the world within the past hundred thousand years
or more occurred before an other races existed. Thus, Black culture and civilization was being established when no other "races" existed as we know them today. This is a facinating historical even, because having been homosapiens for over one hundred thousand years, it is very possible that Blacks could have gone through many periods of cultural development and civilization before the beginning of the Nile Valley civilization (since about 17,000 B.C.) or the Zingh Civilization of the South-Western Sahara (15,000 B.C.), or even Atlantis (10,000 B.C.), or the building of the Sphinx (7,000 B.C.).
In fact, there is evidence from ancient East Indian chronicles (some of these pictures are on AAWR (African American Web Ring) of the geat scientific advancement of the Black prehistoric inhabitants of the Indus Valley Civilization (6000 b.c. to 1700 b.c), who built flying machines, who had flushing toilets, cities on a gridlike pattern, and many of what we may call "modern" conviniences.

About 20,000 years ago, the present-day dried up and desertified Sahara had an aquatic civilization where the Africans who lived on the edges of the giant inland sea, built large ocean-going ships. Rock paiintings of these ships can still be seen in the Sahara (and some appeared on national geographic magazine about two years ago). (For more on the Aquatic Civilizations of the prehistoric Sahara, see, "African Presence In Early Asia," by Ivan Van Sertima and Runoko Rashidi, Transaction Publications, New Bruinswick, NJ).

The Africans who used these boats (which are still used today by tribes such as the Baduma of Mali, West Africa) made of papyrus straw. These same type of boats were used to travel to the Americas, the Indian Ocean, the South Pacific, India, East Asia and the Pacific, then to the Americas via the Pacific Ocean. In fact, the Fijians still consider Africa's East Coast to be their very ancient homeland and Africans in East Africa have oral as well as written histories of ancient journies towards Asia.
In ancient times, trade between Africans in Africa and those in the Indian Ocean, East Asia and the Pacific Ocean, East Asia, the Americas, the Mediterranean, the Black Sea area and all the continents including Australia. In all these areas, evidence of prehistoric African Blacks exist. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT SUCH EVIDENCE WAS AGAIN FOUND IN SOUTH AMERICA, WHERE ABOUT FIFTY SKULLS REPRESENTING NEGROID PEOPLE WERE FOUND IN BRAZIL (see Scientific American, September 2000). However, this is no news to some Blacks, particularly those descended from the ancient prehistoric Blacks of America, such as the Wasitaw of the Louisiana area, the descendants of the Black Californians, the Jamassee and others; the Black Caribs of the Caribbean and Central America, the Choco Region Blacks of Columbia, South America and many others.

This book examines the history of Black trade and commerce. It examines how money was made in ancient times and how this legacy continued well into the colonial era to this very day.

In a time when Blacks worldwide are suffering economically, this book clearly contributes to the knowledge and helps build the confidence needed to initiate a Black world economic renaissance and Black economic, social, numerical and cultural development among Black Americans and Blacks elsewhere.

More Pages by Paul Barton


http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/ancientamerica.htm

Birth control would certainly help in Haiti. Seriously send that country some condoms. Their resources just aren't adequate for the amount of folk living there. People are eating mud cookies there these days. Women should stop having babies like rabbits.

Last time a I went to Philadelhia I do recall seeing squalor and urban dispair.

We should also send condoms to Philly for good measure.

here is a recent BBC article highlighting just a speck of the externally imposed misery haitians experience: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/cooking_in_the_danger_zone/7302535.stm

Last time a I went to Philadelhia I do recall seeing squalor and urban dispair.

We should also send condoms to Philly for good measure.

Take a guess on who are the ones making all these unwanted babies? alright...

Guys, we really should remember that Haiti suffered for about 3 decades(a little more, actually) under the rule of one of the worst leaders ever to exist. Duvallier was right on par with the likes of Amin and Mobutu and Ceaucescu.

Haiti would be in infinitely better shape if he had never shown up.

Once again. Other Latin American countries had very harsh dictators. Argentina, Chile, The Dominican Republic and so on. Still these countries managed to pull themselves out of their mess and are on their way to progress(Chile has come a long way). It dissapointing that Haiti couldn't do the same..

BTW, I know this post is like 8 months old.

Once again. Other Latin American countries had very harsh dictators. Argentina, Chile, The Dominican Republic and so on. Still these countries managed to pull themselves out of their mess and are on their way to progress(Chile has come a long way). It dissapointing that Haiti couldn't do the same.


In all fairness, men like Pinochet and Galtieri do not even compare to the likes of the Duvalliers. Both of those men were not nearly as ruthless, corrupt, insane and selfish. A simple glance at the histories of these men will make that clear-Papa Doc was on a whole new level.

Trujillo was a nutcase too. What I never understood is that many Hatian complain about Papa Doc but atleast there was stabalility in the country when he ruled. As messed up as this may sound, sometimes I feel like the only way Haiti can ever rebound is if another dictator takes over.

Sorry, It looks worse than any country in Africa

I feel bad of the way they have to live, the innocent people

Sorry, It looks worse than any country in Africa

I feel bad of the way they have to live, the innocent people

You clearly don't know Africa well , do you?

I have no words to describe those pics.

This is a thread I started in 2007, after my trip to Haiti. I posted 61 pictures in all (on pages 1 and 3).
After the earthquake, things became even worse.
Let's mourn the loss of countless lives in the earthquake, and pray for those alive. Wish people of this unfortunate country could have a better life in the future.

This is a thread I started in 2007, after my trip to Haiti. I posted 61 pictures in all (on pages 1 and 3).
After the earthquake, things became even worse.
Let's mourn the loss of countless lives in the earthquake, and pray for those alive. Wish people of this unfortunate country could have a better life in the future.
Rip for the victims in Haiti, from the recent earthquake

What is it with you people?
We see poverty, dispair and anarchy and immideatly you start blaming people for being ignorant and racist, bla bla bla.

Perhaps you should start focusing on revuilding your countries and fight corruption instead of blaming whitey all the time.

Was a country devastated even before the earthquake...
I have no words to describe these images #2