Wal-Mart Supercenter may be ahead at Gandy and Lois Avenue
By EMILY NIPPS
Published June 29, 2007
St. Petersburg Times

For the past few months, Wal-Mart has been eyeing the corner of Gandy Boulevard and Lois Avenue, unbeknown to some workers and customers of several smaller businesses there.

After the nation's largest retailer submits its plans this summer, five well-known South Tampa businesses could be replaced by a 150, 000-square-foot Wal-Mart Supercenter.

The area is zoned for commercial use, and Wal-Mart already has the properties under contract and hopes to buy the 13 acres once the city approves the plans, company spokeswoman Quenta Vettel said.

"We've been looking for a site to serve customers in South Tampa, and this one looks to be ideal, " she said. "We're very excited to go forward."

The five parcels that Wal-Mart hopes to buy are currently occupied by Sticks 'N' Stuff discount furniture store, Pleasure Zone Adult Supercenter, Stars Athletics gymnastics center, Tampa G. Manufacturing Co. and Progressive Development Properties.

However, employees contacted at the businesses said they were unaware of any closings or relocation plans. Some were even reassured that the Wal-Mart rumors were false.

"The owners said they don't know anything about the sale of this building, " said Sticks 'N' Stuff manager Dave Pezone. "This whole thing is a Wal-Mart 'wannabe' deal. It's been blown out of proportion."

Vettel said the Supercenter plans are still very preliminary; no timeline has been set for construction. The mega-retailer has had some meetings with city officials and has contracts on the five parcels, but still has to do traffic and other impact studies before moving forward.

"The nice thing is it's a corridor already designated for redevelopment, and you're already starting to see that with the Sweetbay (across the street), " she said. "It's an area in transition."

The store is expected to be a smaller, more urban version of the typical Wal-Mart Supercenter, which is around 200, 000 square feet.

The South Tampa store plans include grocery, pharmacy and garden centers, Vettel said, but not automotive services or a liquor store.

Emily Nipps can be reached at (813) 269-5313 or nipps@sptimes.com.

I strongly oppose this plan. If Wal-Mart has its way, we will see Gandy, Manhattan, Lois, and several other surrounding roads becoming congested beyond belief. I know the plans are still in the early stages but it is still a very bad idea.

This will be fought.

A Wal-Mart Supercenter on Gandy, the road that already gets an 'F' from State DOT??? This should die before it even starts, just like the Ybor Wal-Mart.

If sensible urban development can't occur in S Tampa, even when it has strong neighborhood support(The View), then the City Council will truly expose their hypocrisy if this project is allowed to be built...

^ Yea I don't see this going anywhere. Well unless some of the council members have a stake in the land :P

That or Wal Mart proposed to dump millions into road improvements.... or a hundred million+. That's still going to make it an ill-fated proposition.

Okay, it is from my understanding that it is a standard Wal-Mart that is being proposed, but an urban version. It is smaller than a supercenter and I don't think it is open continously. I could be wrong though.

Anyways, I still think the plan is not a good one...unless major improvements are done to Gandy. But I think no matter what the outcome, Gandy will still become congested beyond belief because there is really no long-term solution for the highway. The Crosstown/Gandy connector is dead, and pretty much so is the Gandy double-decker plan. Personally, I think Target should consider relocating its S. Tampa/Gandy store to the location because the current store is too small. But I know that won't happen.

a standard Wal-Mart that is being proposed, but an urban version.

oxymoron much?

^ ha. Same with "smaller". Smaller than a stadium isn't exactly small.

That or Wal Mart proposed to dump millions into road improvements.... or a hundred million+. That's still going to make it an ill-fated proposition.
You know what?

If it takes a Wal Mart to get the people in the neighborhood to figure out that an expressway connection is NEEDED between the Gandy Bridge and the Selmon, then I say so be it. I would be a-ok with that deal... If Wal-Mart ponies up a fair amount of what we'll call 'matching funds' and somehow garners neighborhood support for their store and the desperately needed expressway, then I'll personally speak at a TCC meeting and thank them on the record.

And anyone who knows my sentiments on Wal-Mart understands just how important I think that connector is. I also don't think the folks in the neighborhood understand that it is both inevitable that it will happen in time, and that the longer it takes, the more time the price has to perpetually out pace inflation...Once New Port and Westshore Yacht Club are built out, and Georgetown is redeveloped, the land values in the area will skyrocket, and the cost of doing the project will follow. Once people realize these two unavoidable truths, one realizes that the sooner, the better. The folks in Beach Park and SOG should be rushing to work with the state to get it done, while they are still relevant.

One thing though... I think that this project should be a part of a much larger overall project, which would link the Selmon to I-275 thru Pinellas.

You know what?

If it takes a Wal Mart to get the people in the neighborhood to figure out that an expressway connection is NEEDED between the Gandy Bridge and the Selmon, then I say so be it. I would be a-ok with that deal... If Wal-Mart ponies up a fair amount of what we'll call 'matching funds' and somehow garners neighborhood support for their store and the desperately needed expressway, then I'll personally speak at a TCC meeting and thank them on the record.

And anyone who knows my sentiments on Wal-Mart understands just how important I think that connector is. I also don't think the folks in the neighborhood understand that it is both inevitable that it will happen in time, and that the longer it takes, the more time the price has to perpetually out pace inflation...Once New Port and Westshore Yacht Club are built out, and Georgetown is redeveloped, the land values in the area will skyrocket, and the cost of doing the project will follow. Once people realize these two unavoidable truths, one realizes that the sooner, the better. The folks in Beach Park and SOG should be rushing to work with the state to get it done, while they are still relevant.

One thing though... I think that this project should be a part of a much larger overall project, which would link the Selmon to I-275

I don't even know if "officially" the connector project is still in the books. But I can say this, FDOT indicated before that building the road would be too expensive. Secondly, two condo projects have already taken up land that would have been needed for the connector (Legacy Park and New Port), along the CSX rail line. So basically, even if the project is still in the books, it's practically dead.

Next thing I want to mention is the once proposed northern bypass for Gandy. If FDOT was to carry on with that project, many homes (probably between Fair Oaks and Gandy) would have been wiped out. Again, the cost of constructing even this highway may have been way too much.

One of the major factors, besides the ones mentioned above, that basically killed these two projects were NIMBY's, complaining about excessive noise, decreased property values, etc.

The only long-term solution I see left for Gandy is building an upper deck from the Selmon to the Gandy Bridge. However, I'm even skeptical that FDOT can think up a feasible plan to construct that as well. In addition, I've heard many busineses complain about how a double-decker Gandy would look unattractive and would "scare away" customers. I don't think the impact to the businesses would be THAT bad and I believe that if FDOT was to conjure up a feasible plan to build the upper deck, that they could construct it to where it is not too unattractive. But of course all this come down to cost...even if residents and businesses changed their views on the three options, I still believe the options would be shot down again.

Doubledecking Gandy, and whatever road would be used in Pinellas to connect to I-275 (Gandy or Gandy/Roosevelt), is the only realistic option imo.

And frankly, I think that they should get ahead of things and widen the Gandy bridge asap, and make it strong enough on the next new span that rail could be overlaid at a later time. (or at least design it to be able to be easily reinforced later to overlay rail atop the deck).. As places like DT St Pete, Gateway and SOG densify, the Gandy corridor is going to get increasingly trafficked. And combining this with the existing Selmon would give distance travelers a true 2nd all-expressway corridor into Pinellas County. (and hopefully a 3rd, whenever US 19 is finally upgraded the whole way up to Port Richey, or wherever it is supposed to be converted to.)

Wal-Mart isn't good anywhere...especially in South Tampa. Yuck.

Doubledecking Gandy, and whatever road would be used in Pinellas to connect to I-275 (Gandy or Gandy/Roosevelt), is the only realistic option imo.

And frankly, I think that they should get ahead of things and widen the Gandy bridge asap, and make it strong enough on the next new span that rail could be overlaid at a later time. (or at least design it to be able to be easily reinforced later to overlay rail atop the deck).. As places like DT St Pete, Gateway and SOG densify, the Gandy corridor is going to get increasingly trafficked. And combining this with the existing Selmon would give distance travelers a true 2nd all-expressway corridor into Pinellas County. (and hopefully a 3rd, whenever US 19 is finally upgraded the whole way up to Port Richey, or wherever it is supposed to be converted to.)

I emailed FDOT not too long ago regarding their plans to build interchanges at Gandy/4th St/Roosevelt and Gandy/MLK St. The project is currently unfunded and there is no definite timetable set, though I've heard speculation that it may begin as early as 2010. There's one problem with the whole thing that makes me angry. The representative who emailed me back said that there would be no improvements for the Gandy/I-275 interchange other than a concrete slab rehab for I-275 itself (which is also unfunded and has no timetable set eithier). Understanding the money is an issue, I think FDOT ought to eventually put a flyover from I-275 north to Gandy west towards US 19 to eliminate the current stoplight at the interchange (on Gandy Blvd). According to the old bayciti blog, the Gandy Interchange is basically incomplete because of the killed plans to convert Gandy into a east-west freeway.

As for the whole Gandy Bridge thing Jason, I think yor suggestion is a bit confusing to me. Yes I agree that the bridge may need additional capacity in another ten years, though traffic really isn't THAT bad on the bridge itself yet. But what you were saying about...rail...overlay...confuses me. Could yu clairify that thought so I can better understand what exactly you are referring to?

^Widen the bridge to 8 lanes with the big emergency lanes and all of that... Make it so that the bridge decks can be easily converted to support a rail line in each direction at a later date if need be. How that would occur is for this discussion inconsequential. I'm just pointing out an idea of what could and perhaps should be occurring right now, instead of the nothing we presently have.

^Widen the bridge to 8 lanes with the big emergency lanes and all of that... Make it so that the bridge decks can be easily converted to support a rail line in each direction at a later date if need be. How that would occur is for this discussion inconsequential. I'm just pointing out an idea of what could and perhaps should be occurring right now, instead of the nothing we presently have.

Making the Gandy a second Howard Frankland is'nt needed right now. Six lanes within 15 years...maybe, but eight? I don't see that extent of widening happening anytime soon.

^??? have you driven on Gandy from the Selmon to I-275 now in rush hour? It's uhh... congested, to say the least... Do you have any idea how many thousands of residents and jobs are going to be added to the corridor in the coming years? There are several massive redevelopment projects proposed or u/c which will rely on Gandy, and there will surely be more in time, as evidenced by this Wal-Mart proposal.

The entire Gandy corridor needs 6 lanes NOW, and will surely need 8 lanes by the time the usual suspects finally get around to doing something about it.

IF they haven't the nads to connect the selmon to the bridge - do you think they will have the nads to widen the bridges and roads?

C'mon, it is completely obvious that you could limited-access all the way from 275 in Pinellas to the bridge with almost no (I think none, but I will allow for a small amount) land acquisition - it would be pure construction costs - and with access roads you wouldn't even need too many over passes.

Tampa is more complicated because DOT and the local govts refuse to serve the majority (and the majority does not show up to these meetings) - but if they did something like the bridge to BRandon, it might work to connect the selmon - sure, Gandy would be ugly, but it already is and the locals can just balme themselves.

Equally as important:
If they haven't the nads to do any of the foregoing, who thinks they have the nads to say no to Wal-Mart? Regardless of what Wal-Mart offers (most likely nothing)?

^That much is obvious... I give Wal-Mart a 25% chance... Put it this way, I was int he Wal-Mart up at Waters and Dale Mabry about 30 minutes ago, and got to talking to the people around me in line (I'm like that), and found out that all three families knew about this proposed Wal-Mart and opposed it... None of them lived down there, so it was pretty amazing to me that they all had heard of it and all opposed it... And they were in a Wal-Mart!!! :crazy:


For those who may not realize, my previous yapping in this thread is largely hypothesizing what it would be like in a dream world where our govt has real leaders, and corporations actually work to serve society, not pillage it.

Just remember that Wal-Mart failed miserably to get a supercenter built on the PINELLAS side of Gandy, near Derby Lane cause of traffic and environmental issues...mainly traffic problems though.

Unless Wal-Mart is able to sort out some traffic troubles on Gandy, I don't see any kind of Wal-Mart store going up in S. Tampa.

^Well it is a different goverment over there too. That said I still don't think this will be approved.

^
Yes, but still. In my view, it just goes to show how difficult it is for Wal-Marts to get built in certain places because of a variety of problems.

^Which proves the entire point of my ranting...

If the Crosstown extension is dead and double decking Gandy won't fly, what about the possibility of puting overpasses at the intersections (kind of like what they are doing on US 19)? It would be cheaper and would allow for a smooth flow of interupted traffic between the Gandy Bridge and the Crosstown. Any thoughts???

I think it could work, but the roads would be a mess for YEARS!!!

Tough luck. As much as I hope a solution like that would work, I think the existing businesses along Gandy will kill that proposal before it even gets off the ground.

what businesses? most of the gandy from park/US19 is office parks, apartments, condos, and a few old mobile homes...near old industry, oh and car dealer.

what businesses? most of the gandy from park/US19 is office parks, apartments, condos, and a few old mobile homes...near old industry, oh and car dealer.

I'm not talking about the Pinellas side of Gandy, just the Hillsborough/Tampa side. The small existing businesses along the road probably would oppose any double decker/interchange/freeway plan that arises. I've heard complaints over the years about such a freeway being unattractive, causing excessive noise, diverting tourist traffic away. Though I'm sure FDOT will think up something suitable for the highway...someday.

It is very possible that WalMart will back down to a neighborhood Market (1/4 size of supercenters) to serve the downtown Ybor areas. Would that be an acceptable compromise to the South Tampa community. Walmart apparently will come it's just how big and where, so how do you control it?

Wal-Mart compromises mostly on aesthetics (paint job, architecture) but they do NOT back down on the size and scope of projects. So "Control" concepts are an illusion to begin.

"Wal mart will apparently come" -- no, Wal-Mart is already here and further saturation of the market is justifiably being fought around the region. As it will be fought here.

^They could have done that already, and haven't imo because they know they can't effectively compete with Publix. Not yet anyways.

And Publix seems to be well ahead of the growth curve all over the area... Just read a blurb buried in an article posted elsewhere here that Publix is building a store near Westshore and Kennedy, as part of a 4 story stacked retail center, similar to the Target/Wild Oats portion of Walter's Crossing.



On an aside... I'm more interested in this concept I heard that Wal-Mart is or was looking into of essentially breaking up a Supercenter into 3-4 separate stores all continugous to each other... Basically a power center whose anchors are all Wal-Mart brands. This would allow them to fly in under all of those big box laws, without the many product compromises of their pilot supercenter at Waters and Dale Mabry.... Anyone hear anything about that? Or about Wal-Mart's development of a multi-story supercenter for urban locations?

^They could have done that already, and haven't imo because they know they can't effectively compete with Publix. Not yet anyways.

And Publix seems to be well ahead of the growth curve all over the area... Just read a blurb buried in an article posted elsewhere here that Publix is building a store near Westshore and Kennedy, as part of a 4 story stacked retail center, similar to the Target/Wild Oats portion of Walter's Crossing.



On an aside... I'm more interested in this concept I heard that Wal-Mart is or was looking into of essentially breaking up a Supercenter into 3-4 separate stores all continugous to each other... Basically a power center whose anchors are all Wal-Mart brands. This would allow them to fly in under all of those big box laws, without the many product compromises of their pilot supercenter at Waters and Dale Mabry.... Anyone hear anything about that? Or about Wal-Mart's development of a multi-story supercenter for urban locations?

Yeah, I heard about the Publix thing in WestShore. I think they can pull that off. Kennedy is a vital, high-traffic corridor that has seen a lot of commercial properties spring up over the years. I would not be surprised if I saw a multi-story building on the highway with the Publix on the fourth level. I'm also happy about the proposed Westshore Plaza expansion. I remember when the food court was expanded and the theatre built not too long ago and all the traffic the mall has seen since then. I think the mall can succeed in their plans also. Too bad Tampa Bay Center is gone. I'm sure the increased competition from WestShore helped kill off that mall...plus the fact that Tampa Bay Center had a lot of outdated stores.

No, I haven't heard anything about this "concept" Wal-Mart is trying to bring to the table. I think it is pretty innovative, but will it fly? Maybe...I'm kind of optimistic.

Speaking of Walter's Crossing, does anyone know why Toys R' Us fled? They were in the building where Circuit City is now and was quite popular for a few years. I've been thinking either they chose not to renew their lease or Target scared them away (or both).

^The Publix on Kennedy is a no-brainer... The area has been in sore need of a grocery store ever since KnK left when the plaza they were in (SE corner of Kennedy and Westshore) was sold and renovated back in like 2001 or whenever it was.

And Publix seems to be well ahead of the growth curve all over the area... Just read a blurb buried in an article posted elsewhere here that Publix is building a store near Westshore and Kennedy, as part of a 4 story stacked retail center, similar to the Target/Wild Oats portion of Walter's Crossing.



^Here it is:

Grocery May Go To New Heights
By ELLEN GEDALIUS, The Tampa Tribune

Published: June 20, 2007

TAMPA - A grocery store on the top floor of an office building?

The idea has been tried elsewhere, and now a developer wants to give it a shot in Tampa.

St. Petersburg-based Porter Development proposes constructing a four-story building on Kennedy Boulevard, near West Shore Boulevard, with a grocery store on the top floor. It would be convenient for residents and workers near the West Shore business district.

People involved with the project hinted that the developer is talking with Publix Super Markets, but neither the developer nor the supermarket chain would confirm the speculation.

Still, developer Les Porter says the time is right to put a grocery store in the area.

'That market is in need of a grocery store pretty badly,' Porter said. 'We think it's a great location for what we're trying to do.'

Plans call for a 65-foot-tall building at Kennedy Boulevard and Gardenia Avenue. The first floor would include retail space, likely high-end shops that didn't fit into nearby WestShore Plaza or International Plaza, said Ron Weaver, a land-use lawyer whose firm is working on the project.

Offices would occupy the second and third floors - unless the developer reaches a deal with an exercise gym company. If the deal goes through - and Porter said talks are going smoothly - the gym would take up both levels.

The development would include at least 900 parking spaces, to be included in a circular parking garage with landings at each level. That would enable grocery shoppers to park just feet from the store's entrance.

Publix Super Markets on Tuesday wouldn't confirm involvement in the project. Plans for new stores are never discussed without a signed lease, spokeswoman Shannon Patten said.

This kind of project, however, is similar to other mixed-use Publix stores in places including Fort Lauderdale's high-end Las Olas Boulevard, which has a three-story supermarket. Patten said the company's growth sometimes depends on building on parcels that won't meet space requirements of traditional supermarkets. Multilevel stores, or smaller urban markets, also may offer different services than the larger locations.

She points to the company's new GreenWise Market planned in south Tampa. The 38,000-square-foot natural and organic market will fill two stories and will include an enlarged escalator that ferries shoppers and their carts to the parking lot.

The Tampa City Council tentatively is scheduled to consider the Kennedy project Oct. 25. If the plans are approved, construction would start in early 2008 and be completed by summer 2009.

Reporter Mary Shedden contributed to this report. Reporter Ellen Gedalius can be reached at egedalius@tampatrib.com or (813) 259-7679.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/jun/20/bz-grocery-may-go-to-new-heights/?news-money

^ I'd like to see more retail projects that are multiple stories. It is good use of land and provides some hope of higher density that is needed to support mass transit.

The Walmart will get built. With the amount of new redidents expected in the area, the city will approve it with conditions. They want the entire area redeveloped and Walmart has the pockets to comply with whatever request(s) the city stipulates (i.e. traffic concerns, landscaping, etc...). The area they are looking at is in need of redevelopment and the city will think of the needs of the future population base.

If Wal-Mart can pull out a multi-story design with a parking garage and what not I would be more open. No one needs another asphalt wasteland, especially for Wal-Mart. But it still doesn't feel like the right location.

I wouldn't mind an urban Wal-Mart so much...but I'd rather not see a Wal-Mart built. I'm not so sure the city would approve.

The Walmart will get built. With the amount of new redidents expected in the area, the city will approve it with conditions. They want the entire area redeveloped and Walmart has the pockets to comply with whatever request(s) the city stipulates (i.e. traffic concerns, landscaping, etc...). The area they are looking at is in need of redevelopment and the city will think of the needs of the future population base.
That's the problem. Wal-Mart caters to the crowd being gentrified out of the area. It doesn't make sense for them to be there imo. And if we're talking about looking forward, when the area soaks up much of the upscale overflow from the north, then there are definitely MUCH better commercial uses of that land for the neighborhood than erecting a Wal-Mart... I think that it would be wiser to build some office space and a hotel or two along Gandy, to help encourage the thousands of residents soon moving in to work and play in the neighborhood, and not clog roads going elsewhere (plus, office and hotel uses would have a generally different traffic pattern then the largely retail uses along the corridor, mitigating some of the traffic increase. And certainly much less so than a Wal-Mart Supercenter).

Smart land use planning will be crucial to making the roads in the area bearable as it inevitably densifies. Wal-Mart ain't it.

^You definitely have a good point about keeping local traffic patterns local. The local traffic is pretty significant, so eliminating through traffic from immediately adjacent neighborhoods will help with the overall crush on Gandy.

However, no matter how good the landuse planning, I don't think it will be a panacea for Gandy's traffic woes. The real issue is connectivity: there are only four east-west road between Hillsborough and Pinellas. Gandy leads to the Crosstown, Bayshore, and Westshore, necessary arterials to connect the suburbanites with the major business districts.

To heap bad metaphors, the camel's back is already broken; this just adds insult to injury. I think it's better to add capacity to Gandy, whether it be asphalt or rail. Let Wal-Mart build - it'll still have plenty of SoGa patrons (and may draw some support for transit improvements from those people, representing a group larger than expected for the area, who have more practical concerns than overblown fears of plummeting property values.)

Obviously smart land use isn't going to fully solve traffic concerns, but it'll sure as heck help. I'm just saying that in that location, developments which tend to attract patrons from a rather large geographic area is not desirable. Certainly not in the numbers that a Wal-Mart Supercenter will generate, that's for sure.

That is a good point Jason. If the city wants to put in anything for that lot...it ought to be some good commercial/residential mix space. Again, I don't see the whole Wal-Mart thing happening anyways. Its not just traffic woes, but also cost of purchasing the land and building the store, and also whether the existing tenants on the lot are even willing to give up their facilities/properties for a Wal-Mart. I know there are several industrial lots on the land, and all of them seem to be doing well. The mini-storage facilites, Sticks-n-Stuff, Wendys, the fitness center, etc. they're all not bad places. I could care less for the adult store...I think that in of itself, is already a bad image for S. Tampa.

Yeah, I know its a bit late to post up this article. But I did manage to find it from TBO.com. I wonder how that meeting went?

Wal-Mart Planners to Meet with Gandy Association
Posted Jul 10, 2007 by lwilkes
Updated Jul 10, 2007 at 11:10 AM

By LINDSAY WILKES-EDRINGTON, MICHAEL SAMUELS AND MARY SHEDDEN
The Tampa Tribune

TAMPA - Tampa Wal-Mart representatives will meet with the Gandy Civic Association tonight to discuss plans for a Supercenter on Gandy Boulevard at Louis Avenue.

Gandy Civic Association President Alan Steenson told News Channel 8 the meeting will take place at 7 p.m. tonight at the Civic Center, 4207 W. Oklahoma Ave.

The nation’s largest retailer confirmed plans June 25 to build a smaller, urban-style Wal- Mart Supercenter at the South Tampa location.

The store would replace the Sticks ‘N’ Stuff discount furniture store and Pleasure Zone Adult Supercenter on the south side of Gandy across from Sweetbay Supermarket.

It also would redevelop the Stars Athletics, Tampa G. Manufacturing Co. and Progressive Development properties along Lois south of Gandy Boulevard.

The Wal- Mart Supercenter would include grocery, general merchandise, a pharmacy and garden center. There would be no automotive services or liquor store, company spokeswoman Quenta Vettel.

The nearest Wal- Mart is less than five miles from the site at 1505 N. Dale Mabry Highway. The nearest Supercenter is less than 10 miles away, at 8220 N. Dale Mabry Highway.

Wal- Mart has long been rumored to be seeking property on Gandy Boulevard. The announcement will no doubt ramp up the grocery store competition in the area. The Wal- Mart site is across the street from Sweetbay, and a Publix Super Market is less than a mile to the east.

While Publix dominates the local grocery industry, Wal- Mart and Sweetbay compete for the second spot in the Tampa/St. Petersburg market, according to an industry trade publication. The July Shelby Report ranks Publix first, with 38.6 percent of the market; Wal- Mart second, with 20.5 percent; and Sweetbay third, with 13.4 percent.

Steve Smith, Sweetbay’s vice president for marketing and merchandising, said having a Wal- Mart nearby is expected.

“Competition is good,” Smith said. “We compete with Wal- Mart Supercenters throughout our entire market every day, so this isn’t new to us.”

Steenson said he might have issues with the plans, specifically about traffic.

“I don’t have enough information really to make a comment other than asking how big a store it’s going to be,” he said. “How much parking is going to be required?”

He said residents have asked for more commercial businesses south of Gandy, but he questions whether that property is the right area.

“My biggest fear is to see what kind of site plan they’re going to have and what to do about the transportation issues,” he said.

Reporter Michael H. Samuels can be reached at (813) 835-2109 or msamuels@tampatrib.com. Reporter Mary Shedden can be reached at (813) 259-7365 or mshedden@tampatrib.com

Wal-Mart Details Plan For Residents
By MICHAEL H. SAMUELS, The Tampa Tribune

Published: July 14, 2007

SUN BAY SOUTH - Always low prices are coming to Gandy Boulevard.

Wal-Mart officials told more than 50 residents this week of plans for a 148,000-square-foot Supercenter with 625 parking spaces, at Gandy and Lois Avenue.

The building will not be Wal-Mart's typical 'big gray and blue box,' company representative Jim Porter said, but instead will be designed to fit with the neighborhood.

'We're here to tell you what we're doing and we want your feedback,' Porter told the crowd Tuesday night at the Gandy Civic Association building. Wal-Mart officials brought along pizza and soda for residents.

'Then we can tweak the site plan if needed,' Porter said.

The 24-hour store will include general merchandise, groceries, a pharmacy and garden center. There will be no gas station, auto service station or liquor store.

Most of the residents said they don't have a problem with Wal-Mart coming to the area, especially because it will replace the Pleasure Zone Adult Supercenter, Sticks 'N Stuff and other commercial buildings.

But they wanted to know about the building's size and design, and what Wal-Mart will do about traffic, access, water use and stormwater.

'This is a matter of how you are going to fit into the neighborhood and not impact the neighbors any more than you have to,' community activist Sue Lyon said.

John Starnes said he and a couple of his neighbors would like the Wal-Mart to be farther south of Gandy. He said Gandy traffic problems will get worse with a Supercenter.

Wal-Mart has five parcels totaling almost 13 acres under contract. Spokeswoman Quenta Vettel said there is no construction timeline.

Porter said the property is zoned for commercial use, and the project will not require public hearings before the city council unless Wal-Mart seeks waivers or variances.

County Commissioner Rose Ferlita applauded Wal-Mart officials for meeting with residents early in the process.

'The people most impacted want to know what you are going to do and what you are not going to do,' Ferlita said. 'That's what you need to do to build consensus.'

Resident Vivian Hart said the project will benefit the community.

'We've been looking for ways to improve our area,' she said.

Reporter Michael H. Samuels can be reached at msamuels@

tampatrib.com or (813) 835-2109.


http://southtampa2.tbo.com/content/2007/jul/14/st-wal-mart-details-plan-for-residents/?news

^^^

I'm glad there has been support for the Wal-Mart through this point. I absoluely agree with Ferlita's remarks. Had Wal-Mart not met with the community this early in the planning stage, there may have been more opposition to the store. I hope everything goes well.

No matter how nice you make a Wal-Mart look on the outside, it always brings down an area. Its customers are typically the scum of society. I don't see how anyone could support it.

No matter how nice you make a Wal-Mart look on the outside, it always brings down an area. Its customers are typically the scum of society. I don't see how anyone could support it.

And how would you know that? I know Wal-Mart has had problems in the past, most notably the whole snafu with giving its store workers breaks. But Wal-Mart overall really isn't that bad. Many people, like myself, shop at Wal-Mart a lot and the trend will continue to be so.

No matter how nice you make a Wal-Mart look on the outside, it always brings down an area. Its customers are typically the scum of society. I don't see how anyone could support it.

Well if you're talking about a Wal-Mart in the scum of the city, then yes. However, I doubt in the location that this Wal-Mart would be in is that "scummy" people would be a big problem. Wal-Mart is (generally) a discount store, so it won't always be where the richest or cleanest people shop at.

Well if you're talking about a Wal-Mart in the scum of the city, then yes. However, I doubt in the location that this Wal-Mart would be in is that "scummy" people would be a big problem. Wal-Mart is (generally) a discount store, it won't always be where the richest people shop at.

I would agree with that. Same thing with K-Mart and Target (though Target considers itself to be a step or two above Wal-Mart. Target tends not to be a discount store period but rather a discount department store).

I don't know, somehow even in the nice areas Wal-Marts tend to bring out the poorest of the poor. Just look at the one in New Tampa.

I don't know, somehow even in the nice areas Wal-Marts tend to bring out the poorest of the poor. Just look at the one in New Tampa.

That may be true. But Wal-Mart is still not a bad store.

Well, I wouldn't want one clogging an already congested and failing main arterial in my neighborhood, that's for sure.

Again, Wal-Mart have better get a good plan to somehow improve traffic flow on Gandy. But eventually, FDOT must do its part as well. What FDOT is planning to do right now is nothing more than a short-term, interim improvement. Sure a raised median, new traffic signals, and revised turn lanes will help Gandy some. But it does nothing for the long-term. FDOT must come to terms about what to do about a long-term traffic flow solution.

No matter how nice you make a Wal-Mart look on the outside, it always brings down an area. Its customers are typically the scum of society. I don't see how anyone could support it.

I take great offense to that statement. I live in a developing area in E. Tampa and I have a Walmart near to my house. I shop there because it is convenient for my work schedule as of late. I make good money for my age. I live in a beautiful condo. I drive a newer car. Do you consider me the scum of society?

^Are you scummy? If not, then I'm pretty certain his remark doesn't apply to you.

He didn't say all WM shoppers are scum, he said that they typically are, which when it comes to some stores, I suppose that could be one way of describing the impoverished (and smelly) people who shop there, though it's certainly not one that I would use.

Again, things like that may be true. But overall, Wal-Mart is not a really bad store.

For whatever reason, there is a big class problem with Wal-Mart. If you look at locations that are across the street from Target, it's really apparent. Bearss/Dale Mabry and Dale Mabry/275 come to mind. In each the Target is clean and you always feel safe but go across the street to Wal-Mart and you literally watch your back and hope for the best. It's like East/West Germany, right across the street is a whole other world.

I would not want my girlfriend or mother to go to either of those Wal-Marts after dark. Wal-Mart definitely has the money to fix these problems, but cost cutting is their religion, not making a safe and clean environment.

So no matter what they say about an urban design, I'll believe it when I see it. Until then I hope the city and neighborhood forces them to an extremely high standard.

I don't mean to offend anyone here, but you do have to admit, just as jonknee has said, there is a HUGE difference between the customers of Wal-Mart and Target. Wal-Mart is a dangerous place to be.

Personally i'd rather shop Target than Walmart it's cleaner more organized and I get better service there however I do understand the benefits of a Walmarts economic impact on an area. MOst of us went through a period in our lives where we couldn't go to Sound Advice for our electronics (usually college years) and there was the discount store with a $99 television and a $200 futon. My point is to continue the American way of working your way up you have to have places that cater to the beginners. I see a lot of cities losing new college grads because they can't afford to live there.

I think Wal-Marts have a negative economic impact in 99% of the places they do business.

Generally, Target is a cleaner store but I think that also has to do with the fact that Target is more selective when it comes to location and tends to go for more Dale Mabry like envioments rather then inner city.

I would prefer a Target in So. Tampa then Wal-Mart, but like I said before I feel demographics won't be as large of a concern for this Wal-Mart in So. Tampa, then say a propsoed Wal-Mart for Ybor.

Well there is a Target in S Tampa, on Gandy/Dale Mabry. It's only about half a mile from the proposed Wal-Mart site.

Well there is a Target in S Tampa, on Gandy/Dale Mabry. It's only about half a mile from the proposed Wal-Mart site.

Well, I think they should relocate that Target store to the proposed Wal-Mart location. The current store is too small believe it or not. That's why if you go in there, they don't carry some of the things a typical Target store would carry. Besides that, the current store is also aging and is in need of an update anyway. So I would perfer Target either renovate the existing store, or move it down a few blocks.

Well, I think they should relocate that Target store to the proposed Wal-Mart location. The current store is too small believe it or not. That's why if you go in there, they don't carry some of the things a typical Target store would carry. Besides that, the current store is also aging and is in need of an update anyway. So I would perfer Target either renovate the existing store, or move it down a few blocks.

Since Walmart is purchasing the land I doubt they would let Target build there! :)

Hey how about a multi story urban design, Wal-Mart and Target on top of eachother. ha!

LOL! It's like putting Rosie O'Donnell and Donald Trump on The Apprentice. NOT GONNA HAPPEN! LOL!

Since Walmart is purchasing the land I doubt they would let Target build there! :)

It's just a vision for me. I know it won't happen though.

It's just a vision for me. I know it won't happen though.
:) I also could think of many things I would rather have than a Walmart.


I was in Orlando and noticed a new Walmart going in right off of I-4 near Universal. Someone from Orlando may chime in but it definitely did NOT look like any Walmart I have ever seen. It actually looked like it had several different store fronts making up the store. I didn't think it was bad looking at all.

Anyone else know more about this project?

:) I also could think of many things I would rather have than a Walmart.


I was in Orlando and noticed a new Walmart going in right off of I-4 near Universal. Someone from Orlando may chime in but it definitely did NOT look like any Walmart I have ever seen. It actually looked like it had several different store fronts making up the store. I didn't think it was bad looking at all.

Anyone else know more about this project?

I have no clue about the Orlando Wal-Mart. You can try asking the folks @ the Florida Forum.

here are the pictures of the new Orlando store. Thanks jzquince69.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s92/jimmys69/DSCN1452.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s92/jimmys69/DSCN1451.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s92/jimmys69/DSCN1448.jpg

Wow, that is absolutely hideous. Even Wal-Marts in Orlando look fake. Disney rules the city.

beats this though....

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/0/04/Walmart_exterior.jpg

Eh. You can dress up a prostitute but you still can't introduce her to mom. Wal-Mart is as Wal-Mart does. That ridiculous suburb-couture look is going to be realllly dated in a few years as well. It doesn't make me think of an idealized Main street, it makes me think of how fake the building looks and what saps the owners must be. Unfortunately I have seen more and more of that lately.

I found a rendering online of a proposed urban Wal-Mart in Atlanta, it looks better but not really great.

http://recenter.tamu.edu/TGrande/vol12-4/img/1747a.jpg

Compare that to what Target is doing:

http://www.mbharch.com/portfolio/retail/targetrb/image1.jpg

I like the new-style Target stores (including Walter's Crossing). They are nice, clean, modern, a bit too red yes, but that's what Target's color is...red. I don't like the Wal-Mart generic design. It is absolutely awful. The Orlando Wal-Mart looks even worse, like Mickey's ToonTown.

^^^

I don't think the S. Tampa Wal-Mart will look anything like the Orlando store. But I still hope they do implement a nice design.

Wow...the Target store has NO design value at alll....BIG BOX all the way with a nice front entrance. A Nice entrance doesn't make a nice addition....just 'cause it's Target doesn't mean it's all good.

If you like it or not the style of stores that Walmart's now building is different than the old ugly ASS grey/blue shit holes....

My point was that Walmart is trying..... the pictures posted were in Orlando and that style fits completely.

Hopefully the one off Gandy would have a little Tampa style...Maybe....

I always 100% choose Target over Walmart because I cannot stand the customers in Walmart.....

We were talking about design.....in my mind Walmart is better in the new designs.

And conversely the Wal-Mart design is a BIG BOX with a shitty fake elevation pasted onto the front, complete with fake windows and over the top colors. A big box with an ugly face.

The Target design doesn't try to hide that it's a big store, but uses modern design to make it elegant. It also more efficiently uses its space by being multiple stories. So it's actually help solve urban problems (lack of space) instead of just trying to hide the fact it's one store. Smart and well designed.

And conversely the Wal-Mart design is a BIG BOX with a shitty fake elevation pasted onto the front, complete with fake windows and over the top colors. A big box with an ugly face.

The Target design doesn't try to hide that it's a big store, but uses modern design to make it elegant. It also more efficiently uses its space by being multiple stories. So it's actually help solve urban problems (lack of space) instead of just trying to hide the fact it's one store. Smart and well designed.

That's exactly my point. Wal-Mart's generic design is awful. I don't like the colors or even the overall design. For example, the Wal-Mart on Dale Mabry (across from Walter's Crossing) was really drabby six years ago. Not just the outside, but also the inside. The walls and celing looked dirty and aged, the customer service desk area was outdated, interior lighting sucked, and even some of the fixtures (shelves, etc) were not looking good at at all. Fast forward to the present, and the store doesn't look all that bad now. I still hate the exterior design and color (that hasn't changed too much). But at least the interior of the store is much better. A lot of things have been renovated, which makes the store look better. I'm also glad they replaced that yucky Radio Grill with a Subway. Subway always has better food options then some of these self-serve eateries that you see in some older Wal-Marts and Targets.

^^^
Target stores on the other hand, are actually pretty nice in my opinion. At least the newer ones. Yes they are a bit too red. But again, they're clean, modern, neat, very appealing stores. Such things make me want to shop at Target a lot. I've been to the Walter's Crossing Target several times and I like shopping there because of the clean, appealing enviornment. Unfortunately, because of the store's location and 2nd floor placement in the plaza, people have to flock to either the Wal-Mart across the street or the Target on Gandy or N. Dale Mabry/Erlich to have access to a garden center. Furthermore, the Gandy Target store is gradually becoming a less appealing place to shop for me because it is in desperate need of a renovation. There are a lot of things in the store that need to be upgraded.

Going back to the proposed S. Tampa Wal-Mart. Again, I hope that Wal-Mart will be able to come up with a suitable design that will not ruin the charm of S. Tampa. At the same time, I don't want to see a design like Orlando's supercenter that looks like Mickey's Toontown.

^ the lack of a garden center may be because of the Home Depot right next door.

^ the lack of a garden center may be because of the Home Depot right next door.

Well of course, there's that too. But I'm talking about if someone wanted to do one-stop shopping at a Target store, one could not do it at the Walter's Crossing location. In some cases, one could not do it at the Gandy Target either because again, it is smaller than a typical Target store.

^ the lack of a garden center may be because of the Home Depot right next door.
I suspect it's to keep the site plan within the zoning codes (especially parking I suspect), because the last thing WM can afford to do with this project is do even a single thing which requires TCC approval for a variance. IMO, the only way this project gets built is if it stays off of the TCC's schedule.

hmm...I actually have less of a problem with wallmart building their big ugly box all the way down on gandy, which is by no means urban. Now when it comes to the mother of big ugly boxes (ikea) coming straight into Ybor City, which is/will soon be urban, I do have a problem... but thats just me

Yes, Ikea is another big box structure. Blue and Yellow. But it is just furniture (and good furniture at that). The only drawback to Ikea's furniture is that you have to assemble everything yourself. And sometimes the instructions are rather confusing.

IKEA totally fits into Downtown/Channelside/Ybor/South Tampa Area...it caters to middle/upscale shoppers...NIMBYS, YUPPIES, and everyone. It is a rare site in the United States and even more rare with its on par size to be one of the largest Atlanta size like stores. This will make it the largest IKEA in the state. This is one of those "status as a city" stores, look it up or shop before deciding how its not urban. Trust me, it will fill many of the urban dwellings in the tampa bay area.

Wal-Mart on the other hand sucks the life out of every single sector that could come to the city instead, but with the income of South Tampa, I am not sure if Wal-Mart will even have a huge impact to local businesses unless there is some sort of rag/toilet paper/paper towel boutique store I know of...thats about what the average middle class person buys at *mart. Sure they are going to start selling name brand TVs and Dell Computers, but they are systems built just for the walmart price and I am sure this will show.

Wal-Mart on the other hand sucks the life out of every single sector that could come to the city instead, but with the income of South Tampa, I am not sure if Wal-Mart will even have a huge impact to local businesses unless there is some sort of rag/toilet paper/paper towel boutique store I know of...thats about what the average middle class person buys at *mart. Sure they are going to start selling name brand TVs and Dell Computers, but they are systems built just for the walmart price and I am sure this will show.

Yeah, but the proposed Wal-Mart in S. Tampa might just shutter up the Sweetbay across the street (LOL, JK!)

^I expect that is exactly what will happen, because of increased competition. I could be wrong, but I actually think a grocery store might be part of the retail we'll see at Newport in a few years.

i am not even surprised about this walmart in the area, as walmart is becoming pretty much like MC'ds theres just about one every few blocks...howver it will fill the needs for the majority of the population when it does start booming towards that area, as well as bring customer into the area even moreso, every walmart pretty much does IMO..now for IKEA i used to live in New Haven, CT last year and before I moved down here they had just built the IKEA over there on the Main HWY Junction I95/I91, which is right by the new haven harbor, and this "BIG BOX" structure acutally looked good there and believe it or not you go there and you easily spend hours looking around and the stuff is decently cheap and with sleek EURO designs not bulky like the typical american furniture. BUT this store was NEVER EMPTY, if was jam-packed every single time I went. so i think that will be good for the DT Area like mentioned above.

^I expect that is exactly what will happen, because of increased competition. I could be wrong, but I actually think a grocery store might be part of the retail we'll see at Newport in a few years.

Speaking of NewPort, I don't see too much activity around there these days. I'm suppose they are still building out there. Maybe its because I don't pay too much attention to it.

^^
I went by New Port today and it seems like they're going at it slowly. The cranss don't seem to move all that much and not much else is happening. The recent weather could be a factor as always but I just don't see all that much happening down there at the moment.

^I expect that is exactly what will happen, because of increased competition. I could be wrong, but I actually think a grocery store might be part of the retail we'll see at Newport in a few years.

Stay away from that "Fresh Market" on Henderson, I hear the prices are outrageous. As for the Gandy Sweetbay, I'm still getting inklings of a empty store...It's a wait and see game I guess.

Fresh Market isn't bad. Its a store I grew up with in North Carolina. Its very similar to Whole Foods or Wild Oats.

^That's what I heard...

Stay away from that "Fresh Market" on Henderson, I hear the prices are outrageous. As for the Gandy Sweetbay, I'm still getting inklings of a empty store...It's a wait and see game I guess.


You've never been to the Fresh Market and you are telling people to stay away? :ohno:

It is not intended to compete with the true grocery stores. It is more of a deli,prepared foods and butcher shop than a grocery - purchase and eat the same night kind of store. No cheerios or kraft mac and cheese on the shelves. :)
It is actually a very nice store and the eye candy is a plus. Definitely more expensive.

Yea Fresh Market is a high end store, it could have a Wal-Mar Supercenter right next door and wouldn't take a hit. They have really good meats and produce.

Okay...

So Fresh Market is not what I thought it is. I haven't really been there before, but heard about their prices being steep and all.

Wal-mart has a lot of support of city council on this project. I think it'll get approved.


I personally think they need new development in this area. I like the idea.

Just remember that Wal-Mart failed miserably to get a supercenter built on the PINELLAS side of Gandy, near Derby Lane cause of traffic and environmental issues...mainly traffic problems though.

Unless Wal-Mart is able to sort out some traffic troubles on Gandy, I don't see any kind of Wal-Mart store going up in S. Tampa.


Actually, the reason it was rejected was because of wetland and environmental concerns. The city really was itching to approve the project but had too many citizens opposed. They almost had to approve it but found "loophole" to reject it due to wetlands. It was already zoned correctly.
I think Wal-mart is still trying to liquidate the land after acquiring it from derby lane.

double post, deleted

^Are you scummy? If not, then I'm pretty certain his remark doesn't apply to you.

He didn't say all WM shoppers are scum, he said that they typically are, which when it comes to some stores, I suppose that could be one way of describing the impoverished (and smelly) people who shop there, though it's certainly not one that I would use.

Actually a survey showed something like 84% of recent poll have shop in a wal-mart and most of their shoppers are middle-class or upper middle class.


http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=265

here are the pictures of the new Orlando store. Thanks jzquince69.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s92/jimmys69/DSCN1452.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s92/jimmys69/DSCN1451.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s92/jimmys69/DSCN1448.jpg

LOL, have you ever been to orlando area near disney? everything in Disney's kingdom looks like that.

MORE DESIGN HERE:
http://www.walmartstores.com/GlobalWMStoresWeb/navigate.do?catg=448

That's exactly my point. Wal-Mart's generic design is awful. I don't like the colors or even the overall design. For example, the Wal-Mart on Dale Mabry (across from Walter's Crossing) was really drabby six years ago. Not just the outside, but also the inside. The walls and celing looked dirty and aged, the customer service desk area was outdated, interior lighting sucked, and even some of the fixtures (shelves, etc) were not looking good at at all. Fast forward to the present, and the store doesn't look all that bad now. I still hate the exterior design and color (that hasn't changed too much). But at least the interior of the store is much better. A lot of things have been renovated, which makes the store look better. I'm also glad they replaced that yucky Radio Grill with a Subway. Subway always has better food options then some of these self-serve eateries that you see in some older Wal-Marts and Targets.


But you are forgetting the designs of Wal-mart is still to move people in & out quickly to generate high sales per square foot. Like it or not, Wal-mart will open lots of stores here. They have the highest grossing store (at least a few years back) in the USA located at Pinellas Park.
On another note, if you ever want to see mass shoppers in Wal-marts, check out one in China. You will never believe the foot traffic. They make the Pinellas Park store look like it's about to close down.

btw.... The Wal-Mart in Orlando depicted in this thread... I was personally at it yesterday...

The people pushing that as being some sort of acceptable solution for urban stores either work for Wal-Mart or simply don't know what they are talking about... Aside from the colors on the front facade, there was NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever in how the store was laid out, sited or interacted with the surrounding neighborhood. (for ex... traffic was BAD near the store and there was lots of it. Had to wait multiple cycles for the lights back to I-4)

^^

I assumed the overall layout with the Orlando store was no different than the US 19 (Pinellas Park) store. Or any supercenter for that matter. I wreckon many Wal-Marts use the same (or very similar) layouts on most of their stores. Same thing goes for Target.

^Actually, Target is not at all like Wal-Mart when it comes to adapting to urban environments... Target is generally flexible and responsive to community concerns. Wal-Mart builds no such stores, other than a small handful of "pilot" stores scattered about.

^Actually, Target is not at all like Wal-Mart when it comes to adapting to urban environments... Target is generally flexible and responsive to community concerns. Wal-Mart builds no such stores, other than a small handful of "pilot" stores scattered about.

I meant, Target's general interior layout...sorry. The exterior varies from area to area, store to store.

I think Jason's point was just that it's your average Super Center (inside and outside with giant parking lot, etc) with a questionably tasteful exterior. Target utilizes parking garages, multiple stories, etc.

I think Jason's point was just that it's your average Super Center (inside and outside with giant parking lot, etc) with a questionably tasteful exterior. Target utilizes parking garages, multiple stories, etc.

Well at least Target is way more creative than Wal-Mart. Yes, I agree that the one in ORL is just a typical supercenter with a Mickey's ToonTown style facade. The parking lot of that store I hate.

^I also hate it after suffering in it saturday.

^I also hate it after suffering in it saturday.

I don't blame you Jase. It gets boring shopping in a supercenter after a while. That's why I like Target, Publix, and Sweetbay.

I wonder how many people bother to go shopping in the wee hours of the morning at a Wal-Mart Supercenter? It is convenient that they're open 24-hours when just about everyone else is closed.

^^ I'm guilty! I shop at the supercenter in Brandon after a visit to the parental unit's house.

I like it because it's not crowded after midnight, and I'll say this, the prices can't be beat! Just last week I purchased 2lbs of thick sirloin steaks (3) for $10.00 and a 1/2 gallon of Bryer's french vanilla ice cream for $2.75. Try that at Publix or Sweetbay -- I have -- no such luck...

I'm not cheap, just budget conscious. :)

^^
Yeh, Wal-Mart always has good deals!

I suspect it's to keep the site plan within the zoning codes (especially parking I suspect), because the last thing WM can afford to do with this project is do even a single thing which requires TCC approval for a variance. IMO, the only way this project gets built is if it stays off of the TCC's schedule.

I agree.
All of Tampa is in a traffic concurrency exception area - which means that the traffic impacts on Gandy aren't really going to factor into getting a variance either.

I agree.
All of Tampa is in a traffic concurrency exception area - which means that the traffic impacts on Gandy aren't really going to factor into getting a variance either.

And what does this mean in the end? That Wal-Mart can build without a lot of public input about traffic issues?

^^

More or less. According to Tampa Code, if a development puts 20% more traffic on a road that is failing concurrency, then the city can impose traffic mitigation fees or just not approve it, as it would be deemed a "large scale development."
For the Wal-Mart, the city is not really holding them to the qualification in good faith. They are only calculating the section of Gandy between Manhattan and the Crosstown, and using 2005 traffic counts. So, while Gandy (in 2005) is failing miserably from Westshore to Manhattan, that stretch won't be applicable to WM, even though it will be highly impacted. All WM will likely have to worry about for traffic is access to their parking lot. If they can work out access between the City and FDOT, then public input will be really limited, unless the site plans show something.

Yeah... If I'm not mistaken, basically the extent of public input at a council meeting would be during open mic, because a vote won't be required, so it won't even be on the agenda.

It's a shame, because I really don't think it is an appropriate use of that parcel at all. At least not with the current transportation situation on the peninsula.

IF you are ever in dt Minneapolis, check out the Target attached to the hq - very nice

Yeah... If I'm not mistaken, basically the extent of public input at a council meeting would be during open mic, because a vote won't be required, so it won't even be on the agenda.

It's a shame, because I really don't think it is an appropriate use of that parcel at all. At least not with the current transportation situation on the peninsula.

And on top of that, I don't even know if the current businesses are even willing to give up their properties for a Wal-Mart. I'm sure the Wendy's, Sticks-n-Stuff, Stars Gym, Catalina's Fitness, etc. have some sort of objection to this plan. But then again, maybe I'm wrong.

They obviously don't mind, since they already sold options on their land to Wal Mart.

Wow. Already, they've made up their minds pretty much. I'm surprised. I was actually expecting a big backlash from the businesses.

THe reality is WHO CARES? Gandy is a hideously ugly, poorly designed road. So you put a Walmart on it - like that changes anything.

Gandy is a hideously ugly, poorly designed road. So you put a Walmart on it - like that changes anything.

Yeah, of course Gandy is ugly and poorly designed. And putting a Wal-Mart there will only, in my opinion, make the road even worse.

It will be interesting to see how Gandy either evolves or devolves over the next decade. Its hard to fathom it getting much worse, but then again when you add things like this Walmart into the equation anything is possible. It will be interesting to see what the long term impact of the improvement fees and various tax abatements will mean.

It will be interesting to see how Gandy either evolves or devolves over the next decade. Its hard to fathom it getting much worse, but then again when you add things like this Walmart into the equation anything is possible. It will be interesting to see what the long term impact of the improvement fees and various tax abatements will mean.

Oh yes.....I'm with you on that one...

Yeah, of course Gandy is ugly and poorly designed. And putting a Wal-Mart there will only, in my opinion, make the road even worse.

Well, there are going to be a ton of new developments along westshore reaching build-out in the next few years. When the traffic is fully realized, the gandy/westshore intersection is going to take the cake of the poorly planned, ugly areas. Adding a supercenter right in the middle of it all is just a terrible way to top it off. Check out the traffic study here:

http://www.tampagov.net/dept_Public_Works/programs_and_services/Gandy_study_Area.asp

^^

Well, after reading the reports, here is my prediction on the proposals...and things not mentioned.

* Manhattan widening (recently completed): Four lanes on Manhattan from Henderson to Gandy will definitely ease congestion. It cut my travel time between Gandy and Euclid from 8 to 12 minutes when it was two lanes to 5 to 8 minutes in its new state. I also don't have to worry about being stuck behind a slow-moving truck or a HARTline bus.

* Lois Ave: There's not much I can see that the city can do. They may be able to pull off a center turn lane. But nothing more. I expect an uphill battle with residents if the city plans to do any significant improvements here.

*Henderson turn lanes: Something needs to be done about the left turn situation along every Henderson intersection that does not have a turn lane already. This hazzard is almost as bad as the MacDill/Azzele situation.

*Bridge St and Tyson Ave: The modification of Bridge St and extension of Tyson Ave will allieviate cut-through traffic on various residential streets.

*WestShore corridor: :lol: The city didn't do much to improve WestShore south of Gandy. With all the new development popping up, that two lane road will be clogged beyond belief in about 10 to 15 years. Of course, I'm sure that project was only an interim improvement to the road and that further widening can probably be done. As for WestShore north of Gandy. I see very little right-of-way that can be used for any additional lanes. There will probably need to be modifications with the Bay to Bay intersection not to far from now.

*Gandy: :lol: I'm sorry, but I don't see any long-term improvements that the city can put forth for Gandy. Whats in the books now are nothing more than short-term, interim improvements. And unless the community can support an elevated option, I don't see a double-decker Gandy being built anytime soon either. The Crosstown extension is dead too so nothing can be done with that. :lol:

*Interbay Blvd: Interbay Blvd between WestShore and Dale Mabry will need to be widened to three lanes over the course of the next 10 years due to new development.

^^

Well, after reading the reports, here is my prediction on the proposals...and things not mentioned.

* Manhattan widening (recently completed): Four lanes on Manhattan from Henderson to Gandy will definitely ease congestion. It cut my travel time between Gandy and Euclid from 8 to 12 minutes when it was two lanes to 5 to 8 minutes in its new state. I also don't have to worry about being stuck behind a slow-moving truck or a HARTline bus.

* Lois Ave: There's not much I can see that the city can do. They may be able to pull off a center turn lane. But nothing more. I expect an uphill battle with residents if the city plans to do any significant improvements here.

*Henderson turn lanes: Something needs to be done about the left turn situation along every Henderson intersection that does not have a turn lane already. This hazzard is almost as bad as the MacDill/Azzele situation.

*Bridge St and Tyson Ave: The modification of Bridge St and extension of Tyson Ave will allieviate cut-through traffic on various residential streets.

*WestShore corridor: :lol: The city didn't do much to improve WestShore south of Gandy. With all the new development popping up, that two lane road will be clogged beyond belief in about 10 to 15 years. Of course, I'm sure that project was only an interim improvement to the road and that further widening can probably be done. As for WestShore north of Gandy. I see very little right-of-way that can be used for any additional lanes. There will probably need to be modifications with the Bay to Bay intersection not to far from now.

*Gandy: :lol: I'm sorry, but I don't see any long-term improvements that the city can put forth for Gandy. Whats in the books now are nothing more than short-term, interim improvements. And unless the community can support an elevated option, I don't see a double-decker Gandy being built anytime soon either. The Crosstown extension is dead too so nothing can be done with that. :lol:

*Interbay Blvd: Interbay Blvd between WestShore and Dale Mabry will need to be widened to three lanes over the course of the next 10 years due to new development.


Since I live in this area just off Westshore north of Gandy, I'd like to see Westshore Blvd with a center turn lane and medians with trees, etc. (just similar to the way it looks south of Gandy) from just north of El Prado to Gandy. Keep the traffic flowing, but maintain the residential feel of the road. I know through countless meetings that Westshore will NOT be widened or additional lanes added. The stretch from just north of El Prado to the green Iguana needs a major rehaul and beautification. There is only one sidewalk on the east side, poor lighting, it just looks very poor for the area it is in, and with Georgetown meeting its demise soon and New Port and Westshore yacht Club being completed, that area of little shops and retaurants along Westshore could see alot of traffic in the establishments if it looked better and more neighborhoodish similar to Howard Ave, MacDill Ave, Bay to Bay Blvd east of Himes Ave, etc.

If the road isn't being widened, I think it's a waste of increasingly sparse dollars. Money needs to be used for the most needed, worst situations, because that is the low-end, bare bones government we have been forced to deal with... (which is being done on purpose to make people receptive to letting for-profit corporations take over even more government functions than they already control)

If the road isn't being widened, I think it's a waste of increasingly sparse dollars. Money needs to be used for the most needed, worst situations, because that is the low-end, bare bones government we have been forced to deal with... (which is being done on purpose to make people receptive to letting for-profit corporations take over even more government functions than they already control)

The city just announced today BTW that Parks & Rec will see a huge a** cut. :lol: It still needs to be voted on though...

http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2007/8/9/279011.html?title=Public+safety+spared+in+proposed+Tampa+budget+cuts

Man, get it over with and building the Crosstown to Gandy Bridge.

No more slumming it on THAT road.

^ All these cuts I think are being done to punish the public for requesting tax cuts. They are being hyped by the media too.

Agreed Mike, I think our biased media outlets always place things out of proportion.

Maxim, say all you want, but the Crosstown/Gandy connector is practically dead. The land that would have carried the connector is now taken by Legacy Park and New Port. Furthermore FDOT said before that it would have cost way too much to build the highway. I'm sure now it would cost even more. You can also ay goodbye to the northern connector, that will be opposed by residents like crazy.

WM submitted their site plans last week. I had a wonderful time with building services trying to get copies of them. Had to call the city attorney and everything, but they've been ordered finally after a lot of bad noise. They're really trying to push this through under the radar. If I find anything that looks like a rezoning is in order, or anything that will need a public hearing, I'll let you know. thanks.

^Awesome... By all means, pretty please keep us informed... thanks. :)

I'm very interested to see where this Wal-Mart thing goes. Thanks for the update.

Has anyone noticed the signs outside Sticks n Stuff or seen their ads? The Gandy store is closing. I guess this is a sign that Wal-Mart is really trying to make their way to S. Tampa.

Wal-Mart Buys 2 Properties On Gandy
By MICHAEL H. SAMUELS, The Tampa Tribune

Published: August 29, 2007

SUN BAY SOUTH - Wal-Mart has taken some initial steps toward putting a Supercenter at Gandy Boulevard and Lois Avenue.

The discount retail giant has purchased at least two of the five properties it needs to build the 148,000-square-foot store.

One business on those properties, the Pleasure Zone Adult Supercenter, has been boarded up and closed. Property and store owner Arthur Rosenheck could not be reached for comment.

Dave Pezone, manager of Sticks 'N' Stuff discount furniture store next door, said he has been told the store's property has been sold.

'We do not know when we will have to be out of here,' he said.

He said store officials are looking to relocate in the area.

Wal-Mart plans to buy five parcels along Gandy and Lois totaling almost 13 acres, company spokeswoman Quenta Vettel said. The site is zoned commercial.

The store will not be the typical gray and blue box but instead will fit in with the neighborhood, she said. There will be 625 parking spaces.

'We have begun working with the city,' she said. 'We still have to go through the process of getting our permits. That's what we're in the process of doing right now.'

No timetable has been set for construction.

Reporter Michael H. Samuels can be reached at (813) 835-2109 or msamuels@tampatrib.com.

http://southtampa2.tbo.com/content/2007/aug/29/st-wal-mart-buys-2-properties-on-gandy/?news

Another step closer...:)

There's a neighborhood meeting tonight at 7:30pm at the Gandy Civic Center. This is the neighborhood that the Wal-Mart will try to enter. So far, the neighborhood president, Al Steenson (813-837-1277) won't take an official position on it, saying that his residents are only concerned about how this Wal-Mart will fit into the neighborhood. They are "concerned" about the immediate impacts such as traffic, stormwater, and access management. As well they should be, because these are just going to be the start of bigger problems for anyone who lives or drives on Dale Mabry, Westshore, or Gandy area, with bigger effects on the Tampa area in general. Those coming from St. Pete into Tampa also should be concerned, they should be really upset and contact their council reps as well, because that wait/drive time is going to skyrocket exponentially over the years.

Steenson's neighborhood is seeing a huge influx of upscale residential development, which is going to compound traffic effects on the Gandy corridor as the projects reach build-out, requiring more funding for roadway improvements. One of the really big issues we need to ask ourselves is where are the residents that live there going to work, and how are they going to support themselves? Wal-Mart jobs are not jobs that support families, rather, they pay below-poverty wages and end up depleting the local tax base in the long term at the cost of the residents who do live in the area by increasing social and health costs on local government.

If anyone would like to join this dialog, the Gandy Civic Center is located at:
4207 W. Oklahoma Ave. Tampa, Fl.33616. Meeting starts at 7:30.

^^
I won't be there. School needs. :(
Please someone though, please be there. I want to see DIAGRAMS of how this WM is going to look. I don't know if they've gotten to that stage yet, but I'm sure they're getting there. Also, I wish that the community would for once support a double decked Gandy. That is the only long-term solution left on my mind. The Crosstown extension and other such connectors are DEAD at this point. If FDOT can propose a similar structure to that of the Crosstown Reversible Lanes, then maybe people won't complain so much about the structure being ugly and crap.

This will be a firsthand lesson to people about how once a road's traffic drives it to the tipping point, it doesn't require that many more cars to take a road from the congested to gridlocked. Gandy isn't ready for this development, nor much more of the other developments coming either.

^^
Jason, I couldn't agree with you more. This is the mainline reason why I was completely opposed to the Wal-Mart at first and still skeptical about it doing any good at this point. Traffic on Gandy is horrendous during rush hour and is only going to get worse down the road. Like I stated, the double decker option is the only long term solution left for the highway. If residents kill that off, then basically all bets are off for any long-term improvements for Gandy.

I want to mention an elevated monorail line that would run down the middle of Gandy. But for obvious reasons, I don't see that happening either.

^^
Manhattan, Lois, and Pearl would also see major congestion from the WalMart down the road.

Just a quick update- City of Tampa has rejected Wal-Mart's site plans - zoning, landscape, site access, and utilities. Now awaiting resubmission.

Also, the Sticks n Stuff is a contaminated site. In 1988, 111 gallons of diesel fuel were spilled when a tank was removed. I couldn't find out much more than that though. I'm not quite sure if WM is going to try and get out of properly removing the soil and making sure it doesn't leech into the stormwater drains and then into the bay. We'll have to wait on FDEP.

The Progressive Development property also has a long history of violations with the EPC, but I'm not sure if WM actually needs that property. It doesn't look like it in the site plans. Anyone know for sure, aside from the newspaper articles.

^^
Lovely...I wonder why the city decided to deny the plans?

As for the contamination thing, I hope this does not turn into a multi-year snafu like the thing in Tallevast. I dislike redvelopment stories being turned into environmental snafus that last years on end.

Good, hopefully this project will be denied completely.

Im still skeptical that the project will get off the ground anytime soon. But again, I don't wish for this to turn into a multi-year environmental frenzy.

Any other opinions? Jason?

Good, hopefully this project will be denied completely.

Site plans routinely get denied. It could be something as simple as missing water flow markings or trees need to removed and/or replaced. The city will tell them what they need to do and the site plan will be resubmitted. It most likely will get approved.

These are not the building plans. The site plan is for elevation, trees, set backs, water flow and things like that. It is a drawing/survey of the land with rough drawings of the builiding, pavement, trees and water drainage/flow.

My simple site plan for an addition on a house had to be corrected twice and then ammended after the project and it couldn't have been anything close to what Walmart had to submit. You basically get the site plan back with a list of what needs to be additionally submitted and/or corrected.

^^
True...
I'm just more concerned about the contamination thing. If its serious, it'll probably take years to clean it up.

Wal-Mart is looking to build supercenter
The retailer has bought 13 acres. Construction will start in the spring.
By ERIC SMITHERS Times Staff Writer
Published October 5, 2007


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
Breaking News Video

SUN BAY SOUTH
The nation's largest retailer has closed on the purchase of five land parcels on Gandy Boulevard and Lois Avenue and will begin construction on a Wal-Mart Supercenter in the spring.

The parcels total 13 acres and include sites currently occupied by Sticks 'N' Stuff furniture store, Pleasure Zone Adult Supercenter, Stars Athletics gymnastics center, Tampa G. Manufacturing Co. and Progressive Development Properties.

Wal-Mart officials are still negotiating with the Florida Department of Transportation and have not finalized site plans for the proposed 146,000-square-foot store that will feature a grocery, garden and general merchandise, said spokeswoman Quenta Vettel. "We're looking to build a nicer store, not just a big gray blue box," Vettel said.

Some residents are concerned that the store could increase traffic congestion, as well as worsen flooding problems because of its massive asphalt parking lot.

In another issue, the city is set to build a 30-foot median with enhancements on Gandy Boulevard early next year, Vettel said.

It was unclear this week what those enhancements will be, but residents fear the median could hinder the Gandy entrance and exit to Wal-Mart, said Al Steenson, president of the Gandy Civic Association.

Vettel said neighbors should not worry. The proposed site plan includes a dry pond system to counter any flooding that may occur from the 635-space parking lot. Wal-Mart will do what it can to work with the neighborhood to fit in, Vettel said.

The store will not be as large as some other supercenters, which are typically 208,000 square feet on 25 acres. The Gandy store won't have a gas station, tire and lube center or a liquor store.

Because the site is on commercial property, no public hearing will be held before construction.

Representatives from Wal-Mart will present plans for the new building Tuesday from 7 to 8:30 p.m., at the Bayside West Neighborhood Association meeting in the Regency Cove Mobile Home Park's Friendship Hall at 4851 W Gandy Blvd.

[Last modified October 4, 2007, 08:18:20]

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/10/05/Citytimes/Wal_Mart_is_looking_t.shtml

That will be wonderful! I'm certainly looking forward to the store opening in 2008/2009.

Vettel said neighbors should not worry. The proposed site plan includes a dry pond system to counter any flooding that may occur from the 635-space parking lot.

No parking garage, but a parking lot? I thought this was going to be more urban. :(

You know, in the article in mentions that this store will be smaller due to a smaller land parcel . Well why not have a vertical solution?

At least they're still saying it will be nicer on the exterior then the typical box store.

They're building it the same way they build every store... As cheaply as they possibly can, and still get away with it.

^ Yea, but they pass the savings onto the customer! :) I'd pay a few cents more for toilet paper if it meant a more friendly design... That's probably why I shop at the Target that has a parking garage instead of the Wal-Mart across the street. Well and I don't want to get shot in the face.

^Funny, if they're passing so much 'savings' on to consumers, then why do they run one of the highest net margins in mass retail? :)





Wal-Mart factoid... Did you know that the donations made in the company's name are mostly comprised of funds from their low paid rank and file workers?... So, not only do they get free money donated in the company name, but they get the tax break too, not the employees.

Do they really have some of the highest margins? For what it's worth, they really are ruthless on pricing. A lot of that is on their suppliers side, they are widely known to be really demanding (e.g. lower the price by this much or we'll drop you completely and ruin your business).

The business side of me respects Wal-Mart (mostly their supply chain logistics, getting everything where it needs to be much more efficiently than any other company has ever done), but the consumer side of me does not. Cost control has its limits. It's like hanging out with a tight wad friend, it gets old really fast.

Update: Here's an article (http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html) about Wal-Mart that I remember reading several years back. It's fascinating. I both admire and abhor their business practices.

I hear that all of the time when they're talked about on CNBC and such... Their retail business runs one of the highest margins around... Those high margins are allowing them to largely take a bath on groceries, essentially buying up market share by bankrupting competitors, instead of acquiring them (since that doesn't fit their business model).

I remember a few years ago when WalMart was criticized for not giving their store employees breaks. I wonder if that still happens behind the scenes? Actually, I heard from a friend of mine, whose relatives works at WalMart, that they are required to take breaks as per labor laws, no matter what.

A new article - Wal-Mart is getting hit with these all over the nation, plus the women's class-action suit. Two years ago the EPA suit for violating the clean water act. These are also costs that are "passed on" to the consumer, directly from their losses and also the contingent costs to the communities etc.

PHILADELPHIA - Wal-Mart workers in Pennsylvania who previously won a $78.5
million class-action award for working off the clock will share an
additional $62.3 million in damages, a judge ruled Wednesday.

ADVERTISEMENT

About 125,000 people will receive $500 each in damages under a state law
invoked when a company, without cause, withholds pay for more than 30 days.

A Philadelphia jury last year awarded the workers the exact amount they had
sought, rejecting Wal-Mart's claim that some people chose to work through
breaks or that a few minutes of extra work here and there was insignificant.

"Just as highly paid executives' promised equity interests or put options or
percentage of sale proceeds are protected fringe benefits and wage
supplements, so too the monetary equivalents of 'paid break' time cashiers
and other employees were prohibited from taking are protected fringe
benefits and wage supplements," Philadelphia Common Pleas Judge Mark
Bernstein wrote.

Similar suits charging that Wal-Mart violated state wage laws are in play
across the country.

A California trial ended with a $172 million verdict that Wal-Mart is
appealing while the Bentonville, Ark.-based company settled a Colorado suit
for $50 million.

A trial opened last week in Minnesota while suits are pending in New Jersey
and several other states.

The Pennsylvania class-action suit involves 187,000 current and former
employees who worked at Wal-Mart and Sam's Clubs from March 1998 through May
2006. The initial $78.5 million award represented the wages lost by those
workers.

A smaller number — about 125,000 — qualified for the damage award Wednesday.
The others were excluded by legal time limits and are seeking interest on
the back wages.

"The law in its majesty applies equally to highly paid executives and
minimum wage clerks," Bernstein wrote.

Plaintiffs' lawyer Michael Donovan credited Bernstein for recognizing in
Wednesday's ruling "that ordinary workers are entitled to the same
protection under the law as executives."

His clients have not yet received any money and likely won't for some time
if the company appeals. The payments for lost wages are expected to range
from about $50 to a few thousand dollars, depending on employment history.

A Wal-Mart spokeswoman said the company discourages employees from working
off the clock and disciplines managers who permit it.

"Many employees testified that they skipped rest breaks by choice. While we
discourage that practice, employers should not be penalized when employees
do that on their own," said the spokeswoman, Sharon Weber.

Wal-Mart shares rose 56 cents to $45.43 Wednesday in midday trading.

^I think that companies which profit from such predatory practices should have their corporate charter revoked, the company should be liquidated, and the corporate officers should be banned by law from being a corporate officer in any other corporation for the rest of their lives. There should be zero tolerance!

^^
Agreed, corporate corruption is unacceptable. For a while, I was actually scared to work at a WalMart because I thought I would not be able to get a break when I'm on shift. That was when the whole snafu in California was going on.

Yeah the government should run everything. Viva la Venezuela!

^No, not at all.

But it is a point of fact that in America, a GREAT DEAL of public trust in put into the hands of an extremely tiny fraction of the population (corporate officers directly control trillions of dollars of this nation's wealth, and indirectly, the lives of 100+ million workers). Accordingly, these people bear an equally great responsibility to do the right thing for the general public. And if they don't, then they must be held accountable, else our system fails.

And the last I checked, America is a democracy. 'The People' can put into affect any law that can make it through our lawmaking process. If that means people decide to vote for Congresspeople who will pass laws that increasingly make corporations bahave more responsibly, then there is nothing you can do to stop it. Welcome to America.

I think you just summed it up right there Jason. This kind of corporate crap always entices me to see what people like Lou Dobbs has to say about it. Even though he's just a commentator/anchor/whatever.

Actually, I like where this discussion is going. I wonder how many people would respond if this was a discussion on the NASF skybar??? I mean, WalMart has its issues and many of the things that have been said here are some of those issues. Of course, I don't want to single out WalMart because every company has its issues, whether it is a big box store chain, or a conglamo tech company.

CWAT, Govt intervention is good to certain point. They should NOT have the power to control everything. Otherwise America won't be a democracy anymore. It will be more like China...

Because Wal-Mart is the world's largest corporation, shouldn't they be held to the highest standards; be them ethical business practices, labor practices, health and safety standards, etc? What is happening is we are actually seeing the exact opposite of that in effect. It is actually so bad with WM that the press releases reacting to dangerous business practices urge the public to essentially "get over it."

This latest one was in response to the ground beef recall with Sam's Club that contained ecoli. "You can only beat a dead horse so much with stories about bad meat," said Jerry Slusiewicz, president of Pacific Financial Planners LLC in Newport Beach, Calif. This comment was in reference to the health of Wal-Mart's stock upon learning that they are selling tainted beef - not in response to what the company is going to safeguard their customers.


I really enjoy discussions about corporate responsibility and the origins of corporate control etc, although my ability to spend a lot of time on the subject is limited. When I did have more free time last year, I spent a few months learning about the origins of corporate rights, which are based on case law, or legal precedence. There is a two volume book collection that details the history of corporate legal rights. It goes back and talks about how corporations used to be a collection of people with a specific charter. People would get together to build a bridge or something that needed a collective of people to accomplish something for the community. They would form a charter, build the bridge, then disband. Then it goes into a court decision Ford vs. Dodge where the Dodge Brothers sued Ford because Ford wanted to lower the price of their cars so the workers could afford them, but Dodge wanted higher returns on their investments, so they sued and won.

The books are called The Transformation of American Law by Morton Horwitz, which you can get though the library system. I think they reside at the USF library, but they'll transfer it to any FL public library.

Corporate rights aren't written to into the Constitution

Here's the link to the tainted meat article.

(http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200710072206DOWJONESDJONLINE000315_FORTUNE5.htm)

^Corporations got much of their power in an 1886 USSC decision, made by a corrupt court (history verified this, don't know if people then knew the court was corrupt)... The case was Santa Clara County v. Union Pacific RR and it is what allowed a corporation be legally defined as a "person", giving it all manner of rights that an investment vehicle should never have been given.

America is run by the corporations already.

Not all of it. And hopefully that "Perfect Dark" scenario will never happen.

If you don't know what "Perfect Dark" is, it is the Nintendo 64 game about a fictional govt agent who battles corporations that have taken over the world. There is also a prequel to the game on Xbox 360.

CWAT, Govt intervention is good to certain point. They should NOT have the power to control everything. Otherwise America won't be a democracy anymore. It will be more like China...

That was my point.

Jason wants to put Walmart out of business because he doesn't like them. Screw the workers and poor that depend on the cheap products that Walmart supplies.

NOBODY is forced to work at or shop at WALMART.

October 8th, 2007 03:58 PM
Jasonhouse ^"I think that companies which profit from such predatory practices should have their corporate charter revoked, the company should be liquidated, and the corporate officers should be banned by law from being a corporate officer in any other corporation for the rest of their lives. There should be zero tolerance! "

^No, not at all.

And the last I checked, America is a democracy. 'The People' can put into affect any law that can make it through our lawmaking process. If that means people decide to vote for Congresspeople who will pass laws that increasingly make corporations bahave more responsibly, then there is nothing you can do to stop it. Welcome to America.

And last I checked there is no law banning Walmart. Who passed and where is this law that says we should shut down Walmart because JASON doesn't like them? Let's put 'em out of business and force 1.6 million onto the unemployment lines.

No person is forced to work at or shop at Walmart. When Walmart does something wrong it seems they get called on it pretty quickly. They do have to follow laws. What laws do others have to follow that you think Walmart doesn't?

I am not a fan of Walmart and I do not shop at their stores. However your simplistic view of "Shut 'em down" just makes no sense.

That was my point.

Jason wants to put Walmart out of business because he doesn't like them. Screw the workers and poor that depend on the cheap products that Walmart supplies.

NOBODY is forced to work at or shop at WALMART.

October 8th, 2007 03:58 PM
Jasonhouse ^"I think that companies which profit from such predatory practices should have their corporate charter revoked, the company should be liquidated, and the corporate officers should be banned by law from being a corporate officer in any other corporation for the rest of their lives. There should be zero tolerance! "

:lol:

What would you favor Jason? Target? CostCo?

I understand you rant about their business practices, but that last comment was a bit harsh. Cwat, you have a point there.

How many small businesses does Wal-Mart put out of business each and every day? How many people at those business lose their higher paying jobs? The Wal-Mart workers aren't even paid a living wage! It has been proven that each Wal-Mart worker costs the Federal Gov't money for health care, etc. Wal-Mart may be cheap, but it harms far more people than it benefits.

How many small businesses does Wal-Mart put out of business each and every day? How many people at those business lose their higher paying jobs? The Wal-Mart workers aren't even paid a living wage! It has been proven that each Wal-Mart worker costs the Federal Gov't money for health care, etc. Wal-Mart may be cheap, but it harms far more people than it benefits.

I agree. Walmart is much like the Democratic party.....at first you think they are helping the people, but in reality they are doing more harm. Our governmnet needs to get smaller and I know Hillary is going to be SO bad for the ecomomy......If she gets in (BIG IF) she will make Jimmy Carter look like a great president. We are in a crossroad in this country...not sure if anyone gets that......but you will.

How many small businesses does Wal-Mart put out of business each and every day? How many people at those business lose their higher paying jobs? The Wal-Mart workers aren't even paid a living wage! It has been proven that each Wal-Mart worker costs the Federal Gov't money for health care, etc. Wal-Mart may be cheap, but it harms far more people than it benefits.

...No need to guess where you got these talking points. No sources, just ranting...

Nothing you said above is illegal. If you do not like their practices then do not shop there and by all means do not apply for a job there.

What is the hourly pay you consider a living wage? What is Walmart's average wage? I bet it is well above the minimum wage. Didn't the Democrats just increase the minimum wage.....you mean to tell me that didn't solve all our problems? :ohno:

Shop at K-mart then. I am sure they pay all their employees $75k a year.

cwat, you totally missed my point apparently. I never said any of what they did was illegal. Unethical, sure, but illegal? No. A living wage isn't minimum wage that is for sure. Could you live on a minimum wage job? I know I couldn't.

imtiredofbeingtired, I think any of the Republican candidates will be just as bad for the country as Hillary.

The topic isn't presidetial canidates guys...

I'm sure we all know that this is off topic. But if it wasn't for this off topic discussion, this thread would be DEAD. The S. Tampa WalMart is going to get built and I'm certainly looking forward to it. But there probably won't be any new developments on it for a while.

I have no clue why imtiredofbeingtired even brought up Hillary in the first place. I certainly was not going to contribute to that.

cwat, you totally missed my point apparently. I never said any of what they did was illegal. Unethical, sure, but illegal? No. A living wage isn't minimum wage that is for sure. Could you live on a minimum wage job? I know I couldn't.

imtiredofbeingtired, I think any of the Republican candidates will be just as bad for the country as Hillary.

Ok. Sorry.

Anyhow, people are not supposed to live on minimum wage. High School students are supposed to earn minimum wage. If a person is trying to raise a family on minimum wage then that person made some VERY BAD decisions in their past.

I looked it up and Walmart's average pay nationwide is $10.65 for a full time hourly worker. That is almost twice the current minimum wage.

Also looks like the offer healthcare plans for every employee - both full and part time.

http://www.walmartfacts.com/FactSheets/Economic_Opportunities.pdf

"Wal-Mart offers competitive pay. Our average, full-time hourly wage is $10.65 and is even higher in urban areas where the cost of living is greater. For example, it’s $11.27 in Atlanta, $11.98 in Boston, $11.18 in Chicago, $10.92 in Dallas, $11.33 in San Francisco, $11.17 in New York, and $11.61 in Cincinnati."

I'm not sure $10.65 an hour is a living wage.

OK, I'll try to bring this back to the South Tampa Wal-Mart...

Right now, the first set of site plans have been rejected by the City and WM hasn't resubmitted yet. The only significant thing that any of the plans violated was in regards to zoning, which would cause a public hearing if they couldn't fix it. The violation was that they didn't have enough loading docks in the back of the store. They were short one, and the ones they did have weren't wide enough. If you haven't seen the site plan, it's really crammed in there. There was another violation that I found that the City didn't, and they probably won't, so we can have a solid hook when we appeal the approval of the site plan.

While WM keeps saying there won't be any public hearings on the site, they're wrong. There will be at least two, the site plan and also on Tampa's approval of their access waiver (see Tampa Code 17.5-44. Concurrency review procedures - They qualify as a large scale development and must obtain a waiver for putting driveways on Lois - see code Sec. 27-246 - the waiver cannot be granted if the access will have a significant detrimental impact on traffic flow or safety on surrounding streets). The City staff has already told us they aren't thinking about stopping the development, but with enough support at the hearings, they might. Our arguments here are really strong, but we do need people to testify that live in the area.

I'm not sure what FDOT is asking WM to do, I'll find that out next week.

On another note, aside from the contamination on the site, the rooftops of the existing buildings are potential nesting habitats for two threatened/species of special concern in FL- the Least Tern and the Black Skimmer. WM submitted a Natural Resources Assessment to SWFMD stating they didn't do the assessment during the actual nesting season, and that they should come back and check the buildings during season, which is next May. WM said they're going to start construction in March.

So at the last neighborhood meeting two nights ago, we asked WM to sign a contract with the community saying they wouldn't demolish the buildings before checking out the site during next nesting season. They wouldn't do it at the meeting but invited us to discuss it again at a later date. So we're asking as many Tampa residents to sign it as possible so we can present it to them with 100 signatures and see what they say.

Please feel free to ask me for a copy of the petition. I'd post the site plan, but it's a pretty big .pdf. I can email it to you if you ask.

Ok. Sorry.

Anyhow, people are not supposed to live on minimum wage. High School students are supposed to earn minimum wage. If a person is trying to raise a family on minimum wage then that person made some VERY BAD decisions in their past.

I looked it up and Walmart's average pay nationwide is $10.65 for a full time hourly worker. That is almost twice the current minimum wage.

Also looks like the offer healthcare plans for every employee - both full and part time.

http://www.walmartfacts.com/FactSheets/Economic_Opportunities.pdf

"Wal-Mart offers competitive pay. Our average, full-time hourly wage is $10.65 and is even higher in urban areas where the cost of living is greater. For example, it’s $11.27 in Atlanta, $11.98 in Boston, $11.18 in Chicago, $10.92 in Dallas, $11.33 in San Francisco, $11.17 in New York, and $11.61 in Cincinnati."
These calculations include management pay as well, and yes, there is quite a large income disparity even within the stores between rank and file and management. You can bet your ass if you go over to Wal-Mart and ask the cashiers and stock people what they're making, it's probably between like $8 and $10 an hour. Wal-Mart pays shit, and is a master at keeping its workers under thumb (which is why it has always had such high turnover).

And btw, once Wal-Mart set the example, many other retailers followed suit in paying their workers shit pay... Especially department stores, electronics retailers. These employers paid a respectable wage to hundreds of thousands, probably millions of retail workers (and profited nicely). Today, those same retail workers are lucky to be above the federal poverty level. these people now do more work for less pay and benefits, at the same time the profits for the investors and management have skyrocketed.

Trust me, the general public will only put up with this corporate domination of society for so long... Once the NASCAR types finally figure out that they're getting screwed economically, things may finally start to change. Thus far, the Republican Party, while representing big business, has done a masterful job at confusing voters with social issues and creative political jargon, and oftentimes, downright lies.

Flembliss, would you know if the whole contamination thing is a major issue? Like I mentioned before, I would not want to see the site turned into a huge environmental fun house like what happened in Tallevast.

^^^

I'm not sure, and it doesn't really look like it to me. There was a diesel fuel splii there, but it was around 1990. I'm going to talk to FDEP again at the end of the day so I should have a better idea pretty soon.

Jasonhouse is right.

Oh brother...

Cwat212. While I'm not much for worrying about off topic discussion when it seems worthwhile, I don't put up with trolling or personal attacks on people here. Read the forum rules and follow them please.


The thread returns to the topic NOW please.

I've been thinking about it for a while now. What I believe should at least be done with Gandy/Manhattan/Lois, is this. At the Gandy/Lois intersection, add two left-hand turn lanes on westbound Gandy and a continuous right-hand turn lane on eastbound Gandy. Lois should be widened to three to four lanes, with sufficient access into/out of the WalMart property. Eastbound Gandy should also have sufficient access into/out of the WalMart property as well, via the continuous right turn lane. The Manhattan/Gandy intersection will need some improvements as well. Perhaps another entry/exit point for WalMart from Manhattan so that people can exit onto Manhattan if needed.

Stacey Mitchell, author Big Box Swindle - will be speaking tonight at the Hospice Center in St. Pete. There will also be discussion on this Wal-Mart and its impacts.

She will be speaking at approx 7pm about her book, which will be a very interesting and relevant presentation. She will be talking about how big box stores have detrimental impacts on the ability of local economies to sustain themselves, and how those implications will play out.

Hospice of FL Suncoast
3050 1st Ave. S.
St. Petersburg, FL 33712

10/24/07

^^
Interesting......

Does anyone remember the names of businesses that used to be at the Sticks N Stuff? That building is so gross. I want to snap some pics of it before they tear it down.


I'm guessing Roberds? Ok... maybe not, apparently Roberts was across the street and the building was bought by Sago Networks. Someone needs to tell me what the Sticks N Stuff building used to be before i go crazy.

Yeah, Robert's (or whatever it was) used to be there. Then they moved to where Sago is now. I still remember getting several pieces of furnture from Roberts before it went out of business. I also remember when Winn-Dixie was up on Manhattan (where Jan Platt Library is now). That was also a crappy place. The Gandy store was better. Sad that Winn-Dixie went bankrupt and all.

Anyone remember the Scotty's Home Improvement store that used to be next to Sweetbay (then Kash-n-Karry), where Scan Design is now? That was a nifty place to get home improvement stuff. Of course Home Depot (on Dale Mabry) basically killed them off. I'm sure other factors contributed to Scotty's demise.

After Robert's moved to the Winn-Dixie plaza, I think there was one or two other surplus furniture stores in the building before Sticks-n-Stuff moved in.

it was a Robard's Furniture store. There was also one on W. Fletcher near I275 which is currently another SticksNStuff...next to the Jaguar dealership

Actually, I kind of miss the old stores. They had good prices and all. They weren't the best eithier, but they were okay for me.

I've seen ads for Sticks-n-Stuff recently. I guess they're getting down to the nitty gritty now. I'm assuming they'll be shuttered by Christmas.

Does anyone remember the names of businesses that used to be at the Sticks N Stuff? That building is so gross. I want to snap some pics of it before they tear it down.

thanks for those pics. The building is a dump. Probably saw its heyday in the 70s/80s. Kind of reminds me of how outdated the Austin Center is in WestShore.

Another place in S. Tampa. The U-Haul facility on Gandy...that used to be a Levitz Furniture store.

It's official --

FDOT is not allowing WM access to Gandy Blvd, and is making them construct a turn lane into S Lois.

That means during peak traffic hours there will be approx. 500 -- yes 500 -- cars trying to get in and out of S. Lois.

That's going to be a living nightmare for people around that site, and those of us driving on Gandy.

I urge everyone to contact their City Commissioner and tell them that this situation is completely untenable for residents of South Tampa.

John Dingfelder is the Commissioner in charge of this district:
(john.dingfelder@tampagov.net)

Also, Irvin Lee, the director of Public Works, should be contacted as well: (http://www.tampagov.net/appl_customer_service_center/form.asp?strServiceID=69&id=69)

That is crazy! They need to allow a reliever onto Gandy or Manhattan for that matter. Lois will be a mess because of this. I'm sure everyone will be writing to the city council about this... :soapbox:

Also flembss, did you get my P.M.?

I wanted to know if you had any new information about the environmental situation with the site.

whats WM access

If you read Flembss's last comment. FDOT denied any access to/from WM via Gandy. The only access to/from WM will be via Lois.

let the hype fall.

they will have access from Gandy.

I agree with having to keep them off Gandy. It's clogged too much as it is. I can't believe FDOT approved the project at all, if they had a real ability to deny it. Gandy is a terrible road! (I grew up in Pennsylvania's snowbelt. I know bad roads)

I still think WM should have some sort of secondary exit point. Whether it be Gandy or Manhattan. On second thought, an access point from Gandy itself would be a terrible option being how the highway is now.

The document I have is FDOT's "Intent to Permit" and I have been talking to the Gandy Project Manager and the Walmart Project Manager. They're not allowing direct access to Gandy, and instead are making them give up their property to FDOT so FDOT can have that right-of-way and construct a turn lane into S. Lois.

I'm not really sure if they could deny them access outright. They didn't seem to think so, but look at what they did do. Because Gandy is a Transportation Concurrency Exception Area, they don't have to meet typical traffic density requirements, but they do have to meet safe access requirements. So, the only thing FDOT has a say on is Gandy itself, the rest are City roads, and FDOT said "no way."

Tampa just laid off another 100 employees. It's pretty easy to see why they would be amenable to any new projects despite the long term costs.

Tampa just laid off another 100 employees. It's pretty easy to see why they would be amenable to any new projects despite the long term costs.

Does that have anything to do with the rash of budget cuts b/c of the property tax mayhem?

^Probably about 2/3 or more of it in my guesstimation.


Thanks for the info Flembss2... Very informative!

^^
That was my guess also. I just wanted to know if that was the only reason or whatever.

I'm not really sure if they could deny them access outright. They didn't seem to think so, but look at what they did do. Because Gandy is a Transportation Concurrency Exception Area, they don't have to meet typical traffic density requirements, but they do have to meet safe access requirements. So, the only thing FDOT has a say on is Gandy itself, the rest are City roads, and FDOT said "no way.".

Not allowing direct access is equal to the Target/Linens&things access off off N.Dale Mabry. They will need an access road/lanes with a light. It seems from what has been said that Lois will be the access point.

Does that have anything to do with the rash of budget cuts b/c of the property tax mayhem?

You know, I'm not exactly sure why this round of cuts was made. What's really confusing is that the staff being cut are mostly janitorial staff, which they are going to replace with a contractor anyways, so basically the only money they will be saving from that is money that isn't paid into the pension fund or for health insurance. Maybe a little from the difference in salaries between City salary and contractor (minimum wage) salary, but really that's not much capital savings.

One thing I do know about lack of money in Florida's municipalities these days does directly involve Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart is actually a significant strain on local money in a few ways.

Directly, one of Wal-Mart's bottom line tactics involves them systematically challenging their property tax assessments throughout the nation, and they have done that rather aggressively in Hillsborough County. This year they petitioned the value of all three stores on Dale Mabry, and this results in less money going to schools and firefighters; everything that ad valorem tax goes towards. This money has to be made up somewhere. Cuts in staff, salaries and services is how Tampa is dealing with it. Even if you're homesteaded you're assessment goes up 5%. If you have a legal department devoted entirely to reducing your assessments, then you have a better chance at not only not seeing that small hike, but actually going in reverse. It's an interesting indicator because you would only legitimately challenge your assessment as a commercial property if your revenues were declining. (See a report on this here: http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/pdf/walmartproptax.pdf)


Indirectly, lots of Florida funds go towards subsidizing Wal-Mart, which doesn't do so well in giving their employees a living wage or health care. (Here's a SP Times article about them being the employer with the most amount of employees on Medicaid in FL: http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/25/news_pf/State/Lured_employers_now_t.shtml)

If these funds were going to businesses that were locally based and created jobs that were locally based, then in the long term, there would be more money spent locally and more revenue for local governments.
(see: http://www.sptimes.com/2003/10/26/State/A_special_report_on_F.shtml)

^^

Interesting...

You know, I'm not exactly sure why this round of cuts was made. What's really confusing is that the staff being cut are mostly janitorial staff, which they are going to replace with a contractor anyways, so basically the only money they will be saving from that is money that isn't paid into the pension fund or for health insurance. Maybe a little from the difference in salaries between City salary and contractor (minimum wage) salary, but really that's not much capital savings.

One thing I do know about lack of money in Florida's municipalities these days does directly involve Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart is actually a significant strain on local money in a few ways.

Directly, one of Wal-Mart's bottom line tactics involves them systematically challenging their property tax assessments throughout the nation, and they have done that rather aggressively in Hillsborough County. This year they petitioned the value of all three stores on Dale Mabry, and this results in less money going to schools and firefighters; everything that ad valorem tax goes towards. This money has to be made up somewhere. Cuts in staff, salaries and services is how Tampa is dealing with it. Even if you're homesteaded you're assessment goes up 5%. If you have a legal department devoted entirely to reducing your assessments, then you have a better chance at not only not seeing that small hike, but actually going in reverse. It's an interesting indicator because you would only legitimately challenge your assessment as a commercial property if your revenues were declining. (See a report on this here: http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/pdf/walmartproptax.pdf)


Indirectly, lots of Florida funds go towards subsidizing Wal-Mart, which doesn't do so well in giving their employees a living wage or health care. (Here's a SP Times article about them being the employer with the most amount of employees on Medicaid in FL: http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/25/news_pf/State/Lured_employers_now_t.shtml)

If these funds were going to businesses that were locally based and created jobs that were locally based, then in the long term, there would be more money spent locally and more revenue for local governments.
(see: http://www.sptimes.com/2003/10/26/State/A_special_report_on_F.shtml)


This is why I don't like Wal-Mart.

^^
I don't blame you Mike.
That is a significant reason not to like WM.

The entire state is questioning property values. Isn't that a huge topic that has been discussed and is going to be on the next ballot? This is not a Walmart story.

It is a statewide dilemma. That is why the City of Tampa has been cutting back so much.

The entire state is questioning property values. Isn't that a huge topic that has been discussed and is going to be on the next ballot? This is not a Walmart story.

Yes, but Wal-Mart actually has the power and money to have their property taxes lowered, while the rest of us really can't. Wal-Mart has a department that specializes in doing this...

^^
I'm not surprised if they really do have that...

IMPORTANT UPDATE


On Thursday, December 20th at 9:00am Tampa City Council will be discussing the Wal-Mart proposed for the corner of Gandy and S. Lois.

Specifically, Councilman John Dingfelder has requested the Transportation staff to give their official position on the site now that FDOT has denied Wal-Mart direct access to Gandy (putting all access on South Lois).

The issue at hand is whether City staff has decided to follow the intent of City Code 17.5-44 which states that when a large scale development causes surrounding roads to fail their level of service (Gandy at Manhattan intersection will fail), the City can deny the project.

I am urging everyone that can possibly attend the meeting to do so and give comments about the current traffic situation and why allowing 560 cars during peak traffic hours to try and fight for one access point on S. Lois will have detrimental effects on the area's already-constrained traffic situation.

For additional information regarding the project or the meeting, please don't hesitate to contact me at bwiles@gmail.com



--If you can't attend the meeting, please send City Council an email stating your concerns.--

IMPORTANT UPDATE


On Thursday, December 20th at 9:00am Tampa City Council will be discussing the Wal-Mart proposed for the corner of Gandy and S. Lois.

Specifically, Councilman John Dingfelder has requested the Transportation staff to give their official position on the site now that FDOT has denied Wal-Mart direct access to Gandy (putting all access on South Lois).

The issue at hand is whether City staff has decided to follow the intent of City Code 17.5-44 which states that when a large scale development causes surrounding roads to fail their level of service (Gandy at Manhattan intersection will fail), the City can deny the project.

I am urging everyone that can possibly attend the meeting to do so and give comments about the current traffic situation and why allowing 560 cars during peak traffic hours to try and fight for one access point on S. Lois will have detrimental effects on the area's already-constrained traffic situation.

For additional information regarding the project or the meeting, please don't hesitate to contact me at bwiles@gmail.com



--If you can't attend the meeting, please send City Council an email stating your concerns.--


Wow, all traffic on S. Lois? How crazy is that. This should not be built!

S.Lois will NOT be able to handle all this traffic. They can't make a stop light on Gandy? If this is the ONLY way possible, than I agree, Wal-Mart should not be allowed to build on that site.

Gandy is bad now and will only get worse later. Wal-Mart will be a no go for sure.

The largest problem here, which I've stated time and time again, is that there is no long-term traffic solution for Gandy. Until such a plan can be complied, I believe that the Wal-Mart should not be built...period.

Does anyone else have opinions on this matter?

So -- does that mean that any of you WILL be attending this meeting?

I don't live in the city (my land literally borders it, does that count?), but will send an email about it anyways. I used to live down there off Gandy, that's close enough. ;)

Close enough for gov't work. :)

Actually, if you live in St. Pete I think that would be a great talking point. This is not going to help access to Tampa for employment or hurricane evacuation.

Thanks--

I live off Hillsborough Ave. I used to live in Pinellas and didn't care for it. But there are parts now that I would like.

The more I think about this plan, the more I believe that the WM will fizzle out before it even gets built. I would be absolutely shocked if the city council approves this. They would have to be out of their minds to do so.

It seems inevitable that Gandy is destined for better things. With the expansion of South Tampa both N and S of gandy, and this road being the main E-W artery south of Kennedy, it has to end up attracting some decent commerce eventually. I wasnt thrilled with the idea of a wal-mart coming, but in the last few years Ive seen 5-10 parcels cleared but almost nothing new has come in (except for Starbucks and Caffanino). Plus the "Gandy Beautification" project to add a median, turning lanes, decorative lighting, curbs throughout, landscaping, etc was overbid and delayed and I've heard is now additionally delayed or unlikely due to lack of FDOT funds. New Port Tampa is also now on hold.
The asking price is very high for these Gandy frontage buildable parcels, so perhaps the Wal-Mart will lead to additional copy-cat companies who will bring in some higher quality restaurants/retail that this road desparately needs.
I know the whole anti wal-mart argument, (see the documentary "the high cost of low prices") but in this case I'm glad to see sticks and sh%t and the porn shop go, especially if it means more tax revenue and city council attention to Gandy's development.

-ABVT

^^
First off, welcome to SSC. I hope you will enjoy posting here. Secondly, some of us, like myself, are not very happy about the congestion that the WalMart will create in South Tampa, including Gandy and Lois. I understand your point on this issue, but as you can see, I am opposed to this project and hope that the city council will reject the plan rather than deal with Gandy traffic troubles getting way out of control over the next 15 years. And despite what you may hear from time to time about the Crosstown extension, it's not going to happen, not in a million years.

Welcome to the forum abvt... If you need help or have a question about the site, I'm your best bet. cheers!



I still think it's rather insane to build something like a Wal-Mart Supercenter along a major arterial and evacuation route that is already receiving an 'F' Grade from state DOT because it's so bad... I continue to stand by my remarks all along that if this is allowed to be built, then this city's leadership has unquestionably failed at doing its job. Pinellas knew better and prevented Wal-Mart from building on their side of the overburdened Gandy corridor. Here's to hoping Tampa can lead too.

^^
Oh I agree, Pinellas govt definitely knew better than to let the Wal-Mart be built on their end of Gandy. Even if the 4th/MLK overpasses get built down the road (which won't be for sometime b/c the project is still largely unfunded last time I heard), the Pinellas side of Gandy won't be that much better off.

I also agree on the point that if the Tampa City Council approves the WM, that their true core of corruption and ignorance towards the citizens would be exposed. I would also lose trust in Charlie Miranda (IF he votes for approval), who I believe is one of the last good political voices that Tampa still has.

I'm still pretty sure that there's nothing for the council to vote on. According to the info above, it seems to come down to whether the city staff approves of the manner in which the Wal-Mart traffic will affect Lois is acceptable or not.


however, this is the part that I don't get...

here is a definition of what TCEA is...
Transportation concurrency exception area or TCEA is all portions of the incorporated area of the City of Tampa located south of Fletcher Avenue as depicted or defined in the Transportation Element of the Tampa Comprehensive Plan. All development within the TCEA is excepted from the City of Tampa's concurrency requirements for transportation.
This on its face means that the Wal-Mart proposal is exempted from the Concurrency review.


However...
Applications affecting land in the TCEA.

1. No individual review of transportation impacts shall be required in connection with the development of land located in the TCEA unless the development is deemed to be a "large scale development" (as hereinafter defined) located adjacent to or having primary access to one (1) or more public roads operating at worse that Level of Service ("LOS") "D" (as defined in the Transportation Element of City of Tampa Comprehensive Plan). A large scale development located within the TCEA shall be required to undergo a "site specific traffic analysis" as hereinafter described in subsection (g)(4) below.

2. For purposes of this subsection, a "large scale development" is defined as any new or additional development (including any phased development occurring after the effective date hereof) on a zoning lot (as defined in section 27-523 of the Code) existing as of the effective date of this ordinance (January 27, 2005): (a) which meets the locational criteria described in subsection g(1) above; (b) which will produce an estimated additional number of daily vehicular trips equal to or greater than twenty (20) percent of the adjacent public road's Level of Service "D" daily service volume (total, non-directional); and (c) for which a transportation analysis has not been previously conducted and approved in connection with a zoning, rezoning or other regulatory approval by the city. This means that a development for which a transportation analysis has been previously conducted and transportation mitigation has been agreed to or has been determined not to be required in connection with one (1) or more regulatory approvals by the city shall not be defined as a "large scale development" for purposes of this subsection including, without limitation, Developments of Regional Impact or Florida Quality Developments as defined in Chapter 380, Florida Statutes, and developments for which the transportation impacts have been addressed in conjunction with a rezoning approval received from the City (such as site plan controlled rezoning approvals).

3. In determining whether a proposed new project constitutes a "large scale development", the estimate of additional number of daily trips shall: (a) be made by the city's transportation manager or his designee; (b) be calculated based upon the total estimated number of daily trips (non-directional) for the proposed large scale development as shown in the Institute of Transportation Engineers Trip Generation, An information report (latest edition); (c) be equal to the net estimated increase of daily trips resulting from the new development as compared to any "existing development" located on said zoning lot (as hereinafter defined); and (d) include any new or additional trips generated by any additional phase of development occurring on the zoning lot after the effective date of this ordinance (January 27, 2005). For purposes of this subsection "existing development" shall include any development located on the zoning lot as of or at any time after the adoption of the TCEA in the city's comprehensive plan (evenif such "existing development" is vacant or has been demolished prior to submission of an application to the city for the new or additional development).

4. Before the city issues its first approval of an application for a large scale development in the TCEA (as defined in subsection "g(2)" above) in the development process wherein a concurrency evaluation is required pursuant to this section (IE., preliminary plat, commercial site plan, building permit, construction drawing review, or final plat), the applicant shall conduct, at the applicant's expense, and submit to the city's transportation division a site specific transportation analysis, prepared by a Florida registered professional engineer or other similarly qualified professional. The site specific transportation analysis shall be prepared and reviewed in a manner consistent with the requirements contained in section 27-323(2)(b) of the City Code for site plan zoning district applications; however, a methodology meeting between the city's transportation division and the applicant shall be required before a site specific transportation analysis is prepared and submitted by the applicant to the city.

5. If the site specific transportation analysis described in subsection g(4) above shows an increase of trips in excess of the adopted LOS link level of service established in the "2005 PM Peak Cost Affordable Plan," or the subsequently adopted five (5) year PM Peak Cost Affordable Plan (which is an appendix to the Transportation Element in the Tampa Comprehensive Plan), then the application shall be denied unless the applicant enters into a binding agreement with the city to make certain identified transportation improvements agreed upon by the city to the adjacent or affected roadways within three (3) years of the date of issuance of the first building permit for the proposed large scale development, or in accordance with a phasing schedule approved by the city if additional time is required, to mitigate the negative impact of the proposed large scale development (in excess of the existing development as described in subsection g(4) above). The agreement shall also address the off-site improvements, which areeligible for transportation impact fee credits in accordance with Chapter 25 of the City of Tampa Code if said improvements add transportation capacity. If the site specific transportation analysis shows no change or a decrease in trips in excess of the adopted LOS link level of service established in the "2005 PM Peak Cost Affordable Plan" or the subsequently adopted five (5) year PM Peak Cost Affordable Plan (which is an appendix to the Transportation Element in the Tampa Comprehensive Plan), then the application shall be approved.
http://www.municode.com/RESOURCES/gateway.asp?pid=10132&sid=9




Or in layman's terms, Wal-Mart isn't getting built unless they cough up significant money to improve traffic flow on surrounding roads, and that ain't gonna be cheap. And there won't be a vote or the opportunity for public input as far as I can tell... This decision is designated to be made by the City Transportation Manager, which is under DPW... I don't know who it is offhand, but we could find out pretty easily.

Anything new since the end of 2007?

At the City Council meeting Tony Rodriguez, the Transportation staff manager, said that if all access is to be on S. Lois, then the project would have "detrimental effects" on the surrounding neighborhoods.

Dingfelder then instructed him to send a letter to FDOT saying the City wants Wal-Mart to have access, and FDOT should not encroach on City affairs.

I waited until the end of the hearing (which was around 7pm) and told Council that FDOT has been very open about why they made this decision and that they were using their best preventative judgment when they denied access. I requested that before the City send a letter supporting Wal-Mart - that the City and FDOT attend a neighborhood meeting and discuss this in the open, as many people are in support of FDOT.

I talked to an attorney with FDOT and apparently they are in settlement talks with Wal-Mart. I'll let you know when I find out more about this.

That is interesting.

Thanks for the update.

According to this thread, http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=17459792#post17459792, the short-term Gandy improvements will begin later this month. Now, if an elevated highway, similar to the Crosstown REL is eventually built in the median of Gandy, that would alleviate a lot of traffic.

I've created a Google map of how I would like to see this elevated system built. http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=100257730779234832765.000442d272972a9d7e507&ll=27.896287,-82.513933&spn=0.035349,0.079651&z=14&om=1

It would include the existing four ground-level lanes, with two elevated lanes (one in each direction). In addition, two one-lane elevated feeders to and from the Crosstown Expressway and ground-level entry points from Gandy, just west of the Crosstown, and near the Gandy Bridge.

I spoke to an attorney with FDOT who confirmed that they are in settlement talks with Wal-Mart. She couldn't tell me any more than that, just that FDOT is exploring their options, and that FDOT was happy with the decision that they had made.

That sounds good, but I'm not holding my breath until the outcome is made.

Thanks for the info Ben.

Saw this on Sticksoffire.com posted by Mr. Bill (also posted on TampaGold.com) talking about the Armory project and the West Tampa revitalization called "West Tampa Rising". Anyone heard anything about this...

WalMart has announced plans to build a new store at the former Save Rite location in the same area.

^ Yuck.

Where exactly is this site located Amanda? If it is where I think it is, then they don't need a WalMart there. Just let people travel to Dale Mabry or northward. I'm getting even more skeptical of the S. Tampa WalMart ever going through.

Behind Wendy's and Taco Bell at Kennedy and Rome

Yeah - I saw that WM was requesting a wet-zoning (to sell alcohol) on that parcel from the City Council agenda -- based on its size it looks like a neighborhood market to me.

Yes, it is a Neighborhood Market going in at the former Winn Dixie location. They've been working on that deal for some time now. It's happening, like it or not.

Well a Neighorhood Market is different than a normal Wal-Mart... It may not be so bad.

I haven't been to a WM Neighborhood market yet, so I can't really comment on them good or bad. Just glad to see that this site might be used again. It was attracting alot of homeless.

^ Just imagine the supermarket section of a Super Wal-Mart...that's what its like. Typically cleaner though.