A hidden jewel in Manchester's transport arsenal, if only a bit of money was spent on it, it would mean Manchester having 2 world class Rail gateways, with Piccadilly Being the ultra modern one and Victoria being it's classy Sister.

Its a crying shame whats happened to Victoria, its dark, dingy, is only served by crappy cattle wagons, and has no shops whats so ever.

If only the council and the train companies would step in to clean up the place and give it the attention her achitects envisaged,

Get it sorted, its closer to The City Centre then Piccadilly and would be a even classier station.

Couldn't agree more. Well done for raising it.

I think most of the building, if not all facing Catherdral Gardens is empty, always thought it would make a nice little hotel.

Completely agree. Ive always felt Victoria feels bigger, grander and an altogether more important feeling station than Piccadilly.

They need to re-roof it as a matter of urgency and develop the interior with the same kind of facilities as Piccadilly. Im surprised the commcerial potential of this station hasn't really been exploited. It has the potential to be a superb gateway to the city.

I agree... but what is its place in the transport network??? is it needed, or is it best to start considering alternative uses??

I am not familiar with its workings...

I agree... but what is its place in the transport network??? is it needed, or is it best to start considering alternative uses??

I am not familiar with its workings...


It has access to most lines that Piccadilly does, but most if not all of the major services to Manchester go to Piccadilly. Victoria really is the poor relation, but if you see old pictures.....it really is a grand old dame.

Just needs some attention

It serves the North of England mainly and is a Major Metrolink stop.

I've gone to meet my Mum at Victoria a couple of times recently and I've got to say its more than a bit shabby, not very welcoming and all together unacceptable for Manchester's 2nd biggest station, it needs a complete revamp costing multi millions, anything less is a joke

I agree. Bags of potential for Victoria. Not just in the cleaning up department but utilising it's current system and bettering it. Once phase 3 goes ahead and everything's built and functioning, I personally reckon it'd be a sound idea to use it as a Metrolink hub and in turn (with new lines obviously, I'm looking 20-30 years ahead) help alleviate some congestion through the city centre. Imagine having 4 or 5 different metrolink lines connected from Victoria. Perfect for the Arena, those living in the North of Manc, those living or working around the Green Quarter and CIS and the future development that'll no doubt flourish by this time.

I'm away with the fairies as per, so I'm living in a cinnamon wonderland right now.

So I wonder why nothing has been done with it? I mean how much have they spent on Shudehill Interchange? Quite a lot.

Victoria has such an amazing facade it's totally under utilised, it could be so impressive. I like your idea of using it as a Metro hub..could happen eventually

Simple - complete the Vector Tower proposal ét voilá!
Fits in with the city fathers tall proposals around key transport hubs. :)
Next!

The exterior is quite lovely mind; a fine blend of subtle victoriana.

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/ewm/001ewm/lg/ManVicStnFcd4Y13.jpg
http://galleries.photographers.co.uk/data/500/332Victoria_Station-med.jpg
http://www.ma.man.ac.uk/~higham/photos/manchester/040909-1357-00_std.jpg

Nice one Northbeach, about time there was some pics of the subject of the thread..hehe

Also amazing to think that the MEN Arena was literally built right over the top of the outlying platforms there. I quite like the transition from the long dark through-platforms to the train shed area where the termini are. There is also a really ornate sort of cafe or waiting room with a stained glass roof. The whole place just screams of unfulfilled potential.

Crackin' thread
This is the big gaping hole in the City Centre. If there is a better site gagging for a tower as a catalyst then I've yet to see it. Victoria Station itself is truely lovely but so unloved.
Northbeach is part right - the Vector proposal was visionary but clearly too much so for its time. The Tower itself could have made it and what a beauty (I'm sure images are on SSC somewhere else), trouble was all the other stuff that went with it such as City Room for big banquets and the like - all fantasy stuff really.
IMHO if there is a weak link in any development, it tends to get found out by the funders and this in turn drags the rest of the proposal down with it - even the sensible bits.

I dont know if anyone saw it last year, but Portillo was doing a train journeys program from Spain.

He was in this ultra modern station, all glass, airy and light, and he then brought your attention to the fact that the station was neary 100 years old, they mearly just built around it, keeping all the old fascade and building on the inside, looked well weird but spectacular

Think theres a huge car park opp the CIS crying for development, as well as the Metrolink idea, these are two areas for development and investment.

Or just an idea, an extenson to The East Lancs Steam Railway?

When the MEN went up wasnt anything done to the station? How long has it been since anything was done to it.

They could have put the shudehill interghange behind the facade of Victoria, kept the concourse open, kept the dome buffet and put the structure over the tram tracks, trams on the ground, buses above, cars above them.A sort of building within a building.

Wasted opportunity.

Station building looks great from the outside, but is very shabby inside (I was in there the other day). I believe it's owned by Network Rail and is still occupied (sparsely). The rest of the station certainly needs a big re-furb as well. I'm not aware of NR having anything in the pipeline for Victoria though.

Yeah it needs a ton of investment but has so much potential. The trains that run out of it arent much better though, the little bus on rails that run to Ashton, Oldham and Rochdale are a disgrace too. They really should make it the hub for travel to the North. Re-route Liverpool - Leeds trains through here and make it the hub for transpennine. Expresses up the WCML to Glasgow and Edinburgh too perhaps. First and foremost though please just fix the roof and do something with that bloody carpark thats cut into it,

Yeah it needs a ton of investment but has so much potential. The trains that run out of it arent much better though, the little bus on rails that run to Ashton, Oldham and Rochdale are a disgrace too. They really should make it the hub for travel to the North. Re-route Liverpool - Leeds trains through here and make it the hub for transpennine. Expresses up the WCML to Glasgow and Edinburgh too perhaps. First and foremost though please just fix the roof and do something with that bloody carpark thats cut into it,

Liverpool-Newcastle trains used to run through Victoria, proper loco hauled with carriages. Some started in Holyhead. Not long ago either.

When the Metrolink lines to Oldham, Rochdale and Ashton are built it will have a lot more Trams than trains. It is a really nice station on the outside but the trains that use it don't have connections with anywhere else. I can't imagine it would have a great future as a heavy rail station.

Sometimes when I used to come back from Uni I had to stay on the train through Victoria and then change trains at Salford Cresent to get back on another train to go back to Piccadilly to go anywhere. I'd sooner see an expansion around Piccadilly, Mayfield or something, you don't want a London type situation were you have to travel across a city to continue a train journey, that makes people use cars.

Piccadilly is a very poor station because it is stub end. They really ought to knock it down and build a new station further down the line at Ardwick.
Big wide platforms at this new station would replace the cramped platforms 13/14 which would disappear with Piccadilly. West Coast Line trains could still terminate there but all platforms would be through platforms. The arches into the demolished Piccadilly could be utilized for a tram connecting the city centre with the new station and a taxi/busway.

It has so much Potential, it makes me mad.
I go there every week to travel to Greenfield and on certain days,with eyes squinted, it feels like it could be Prague or Bern.
That useless sloping land with that grotty barbers (hanging ditch?) NEEDS to be sorted out for Victoria to truely feel like a class staition. Imagin a row of HIGH class restaurants/bars along that stretch. It would look and feel so much better. Much like the Gare du Nord in Paris.

Come on MCC!

There are ways to improve. Such as put a complaint in every week. Then get your family and friends to send complaints in. Within a month you would have loads of people involved or get the Manchester Evening News to do a story on it. That would get the Manchester MPs, involved and they would do the work for you.

Where do the trains go to from Victoria these days?

And is there an underlying problem wherein all the money seems to get spent down London way like we were talking about on the MetroLink thread?

Where do the trains go to from Victoria these days?

http://www.livedepartureboards.co.uk/ldb/sumdep.aspx?T=MCV

Check out the live departure board. Nothing near as interesting a range of services as Piccadilly (although that Wigan Wallgate via Walkden service sounds pretty special!)

Where do the trains go to from Victoria these days?

And is there an underlying problem wherein all the money seems to get spent down London way like we were talking about on the MetroLink thread?

Basically is you're communting into the city from Wigan, Oldham, Rochdale, Huddersfield or Saddleworth using the smaller stations then Victoria is your station. There are also services to Liverpool, Southport and Leeds, mostly stopping at all the stations en-route.

Perhaps the problem is that it will be more of a restoration job then a development so there is less financial incentive. There are things like the wonderful victorian front, the mural showing all the old routes and the blue dome in the Cafe. It could be a really elegant and historic in contrast to the Ultra-modern Piccadilly.

One thing that worries me is the ever present threat of the glass in the roof falling onto your head! :runaway:

I think the key is to fight tooth and nail to make sure what happened to Birminghams Victorian stations doesn't happen to Victoria, ie they demolish and replace with some horrible concrete carpark type station.

I think the first priority is to sort out the roof, this will buy us time to raise the money to revamp it properly. A leaking roof will in the mean time shorten it's life span rapidly.

Anyway, here are some pictures of inside Victoria Station. Permision given from www.thetrams.co.uk:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/lusaka/victoria4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/lusaka/victoria2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/lusaka/vic3.jpg

Last time I went to Victoria, some of the Metrolink section was sealed of with construction hoardings... they doing something there?

Last time I went to Victoria, some of the Metrolink section was sealed of with construction hoardings... they doing something there?
Ye its so you cant get in.

Last time I went to Victoria, some of the Metrolink section was sealed of with construction hoardings... they doing something there?

no, much worse

one of the platforms is sealed off because the leaky roof makes the tiled floor slippy.

Get cheeky Griff Rhys Jones involved again.

It has so much Potential, it makes me mad.
I go there every week to travel to Greenfield and on certain days,with eyes squinted, it feels like it could be Prague or Bern.
That useless sloping land with that grotty barbers (hanging ditch?) NEEDS to be sorted out for Victoria to truely feel like a class staition. Imagin a row of HIGH class restaurants/bars along that stretch. It would look and feel so much better. Much like the Gare du Nord in Paris.

Not sure what that land is called Mez, but nice thoughts there.
We'll see how far this city can take itself then; a rather ambitous tower scheme next door and an injection of trams and perhaps we'll see this station reanimated.

Thanks for the timetable link Potato Man. I didn't see Blackpool or Fleetwood on the departures or arrivals. And I seem to remember as a kid pulling into Victoria from all sorts of places. Now it looks like it serves just Greater Manchester and a couple of outposts. Can anybody tell me if it's busy, say on a weekday morning?

http://www.ma.man.ac.uk/~higham/photos/manchester/040909-1357-00_std.jpg

I get the train to/from Ashton and Stalybridge sometimes. the stations never very busy but the little 2 carriage trains are ramned.

It's very busy in rush hours.

Victoria's main services are the Ashton/Stalybridge/Wakefield line, Bradford and Leeds via Rochdale, stopping trains on the Oldham and Rochdale loop, all trains to Blackburn and Clitheroe via Bolton, Wigan Wallgate via Bolton, Southport and Kirkby via Walkden and Wigan, and Liverpool via St Helens. There may also be Chester trains via Newton-le-Willows, but I'm not sure. In all, several important commuter routes are still handled by Victoria.

I kinda get the feeling it's been relegated to a suburban station, withering and fading on a shrinking vine while London gets billions for Olympian stuff like Channel Tunnel Rail Link and Crossrail that bring "national" benefits and suck up the money that was earmarked for MetroLink and other schemes. If this is the situation, I hold out absolutely no hope of anything happening to change Victoria's fortunes.

Apart that is, from total redevelopment, the economics of which is driven by property values rather than passenger footfall.

The problem here is that this baby has no bathwater, and soon somebody will be eyeing up the bath.

"London" isn`t getting billions for crossrail :bash: ..this mancunian victim complex matyrdom bollocks is starting to get on my bollocks! :runaway:

"London" isn`t getting billions for crossrail :bash: ..this mancunian victim complex matyrdom bollocks is starting to get on my bollocks! :runaway:

well whatever, theres the ctrl and of course the jubilee line extension - "the most expensive railway ever built" not to mention the east london line extension, dlr extension and croydon tramlink? anyone, no?

ive made my point!

"London" isn`t getting billions for crossrail :bash: ..this mancunian victim complex matyrdom bollocks is starting to get on my bollocks! :runaway:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4261701.stm

Only £10bn. Loose change eh?

"London" isn`t getting billions for crossrail :bash: ..this mancunian victim complex matyrdom bollocks is starting to get on my bollocks! :runaway:
Dont ever try and say that. Your'll a large bunch of angry mancs at your door.

Station building looks great from the outside, but is very shabby inside (I was in there the other day). I believe it's owned by Network Rail and is still occupied (sparsely). The rest of the station certainly needs a big re-furb as well. I'm not aware of NR having anything in the pipeline for Victoria though.

Further to that - Network Rail DO own the building. They started a re-furb on it a year or two a go, found asbestos and stopped, will need sorting at some point though.

I think Victoria is just surviving on it's past reputation as a major station.
I would imagine Oxford road is more popular. The facts are it doesn't really serve high capacity routes, maybe in rush hour 2 car trains are busy, but at other times trains are dead. I've been from Swinton into Victoria, waited around 40 minutes for a train and there be 3 people on the whole train. Even when the tram extentions are built would there be a need for any more expansion? The outside of Victoria is great but the inside is shite and has been for years. The fact is that unless more routes are created, why should Victoria be turned into a dream station nobody uses?

well whatever, theres the ctrl and of course the jubilee line extension - "the most expensive railway ever built" not to mention the east london line extension, dlr extension and croydon tramlink? anyone, no?

ive made my point!

The DLR, ELL is paid for by London council taxpayers. The Jubilee line was pushed by Maggie to save her pet project ahead of London's transports preferred project of the ELL, in fact the JLE was about 10th on the list.

Where do you want the Channel Tunnel Rail Link to go? should it bypass London to link up with Liverpool Lime St?

This is what annoys Londoners is people on this board think that central govt is paying for everything, no mostly its being paid for by the mayor stacking the city up with debt and out of council tax.

Instead of waiting for central govt to give the cash out, Greater Manchester should be asking for a Mayor like London's and then you would get power over transport.

The DLR, ELL is paid for by London council taxpayers.



the councils in greater manchester do not have the power to pay for metrolink by increasing council tax i belive so that is annother example of london bias


Instead of waiting for central govt to give the cash out, Greater Manchester should be asking for a Mayor like London's and then you would get power over transport.

we probably should but even if it was to happen, it wouldn't be anytime soon

I think Victoria is just surviving on it's past reputation as a major station.
I would imagine Oxford road is more popular. The facts are it doesn't really serve high capacity routes, maybe in rush hour 2 car trains are busy, but at other times trains are dead. I've been from Swinton into Victoria, waited around 40 minutes for a train and there be 3 people on the whole train. Even when the tram extentions are built would there be a need for any more expansion? The outside of Victoria is great but the inside is shite and has been for years. The fact is that unless more routes are created, why should Victoria be turned into a dream station nobody uses?
I fear Victoria will never be a dream station because of the points you made there in your post.I agree VAST amounts dosh will have to be forked out for anything like approaching the standard of Manc Piccadilly and if we are relying on Northern rail to provide the cash I think we can forget any major referb in the near future. The tight fisted sods won't even fork out for new trains to replace those 1970's trollybus cattlecarts that are well past their time. Another problem is it will be difficult to surpress that oppressiveness of the platforms that are under the MEN Arena.The stark flourescent lighting makes it worse,its the same reason I hate New Street in Brum.

I think Victoria is just surviving on it's past reputation as a major station.
I would imagine Oxford road is more popular. The facts are it doesn't really serve high capacity routes, maybe in rush hour 2 car trains are busy, but at other times trains are dead. I've been from Swinton into Victoria, waited around 40 minutes for a train and there be 3 people on the whole train. Even when the tram extentions are built would there be a need for any more expansion? The outside of Victoria is great but the inside is shite and has been for years. The fact is that unless more routes are created, why should Victoria be turned into a dream station nobody uses?

During the datytime it is quiet - however it's packed at rush hour. My four car train in the morning is always full to bursting. It's also very well used at weekends with loads of busytrains from mid morning right through to 11pm. The station also serves the MEN Arena. I don't think lack of use is a vaild excuse for the powers on high to trott out for leaving it in a mess.
If you're travelling from many places it's the only station you can use.

look at what you could have won........

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y88/jcg/vector.jpg

:drool:
If only...

jcg, you cruel man , that is the beauty that got me into skyscraper's back when i was still doing my paper round , i'll love this fucker to become reality after all these years :)

That would have looked amazing.

I get trains 3 or 4 times a week to Oxford Road, which does get very busy and they probably won't do any work to it, they've put new toilets in but that's it. A new coat of paint would be a start.

oscar9 I to wish they would replace those old trains I get on them most of the time, passengers should get cheaper fares for going on those.

I never realised that was the location for the Vector Arena tower. Thanks jcq - what a superb pic.


Of the 5 stations serving the city centre, Victoria is by far the most underrated and under exploited. If various bodies are investing in Salford Central in order to make it a more prominent and attractive hub in view of when Spinningfields inevitably spills over the river, then I dont see why there isn't a similar long term vision for Manchester Victoria - especially with all the proposed developments at Greengate. Actually this is probably part of the reason. Greengate lies within Salfords boundary which will be served by Victoria lying within Manchester.

Still, as the area becomes more and more developed especially given the pace of change at the minute it is surely inevitable that Victoria will be the focus of greater investment, better rolling stock and better connections. If the BBC relocate to the Exchange Station site then this could just be the tipping point.

so it has been cosidered to build a huge mofo tower there in the past... why not build it now! woop

We need to stop thinking of Victoria as a train stopping place. It is first and foremost a top drawer development site. The fact that it is a railway station is the major reason for its current sad state. If it was a bare piece of land in that location it would have been snapped up by now.
A few local (btw subsidised) trains aren't going to get developers queuing up.
The Vector Tower was exactly what was/is required for the site- it could still work with the right commercial mix but as I've said before on this thread, the previous investment proposal lacked focus and therefore credibility - ultimately why it didn't happen at the time. It was also seen as an Olympic Bid project. The Bid failed so 'no need for Vector Tower then'.
No reason why a 'son of' proposal could not be successful. Manchester is also a much more credible proposition than it was then.

During the datytime it is quiet - however it's packed at rush hour. My four car train in the morning is always full to bursting. It's also very well used at weekends with loads of busytrains from mid morning right through to 11pm. The station also serves the MEN Arena. I don't think lack of use is a vaild excuse for the powers on high to trott out for leaving it in a mess.
If you're travelling from many places it's the only station you can use.
A valid point Latic, the way I see it few people connect or travel long distances from Victoria. That results in few people spending any great time there, no businesses will want to invest there as there isn't the custom. I don't think the development of the station is viable wholey as a station. It should be developed mainly as a through station and a non travelling, indoor public space. Opening some boozers, cafes, book shop etc all under a nice glass roof. I think we need to take more of a European or even US look at stations. Let Piccadilly have have a Sainbury's, WH Smith etc with frantic passengers rushing to buy a sandwich and paper before they travel to London. Let Victoria have people enjoying their lunch while not travelling anywhere. This can only come about through the private sector.

Wow. Lovely pic, thanks jcg.

Couldn't agree more LocksRocks. I reckon development is the only thing that will fund improvements to Victoria Station.

why would you need people to eat sandwiches there? thats nothing to do with it?! unless i have completly missed the point? :S think about it as an office development close to transport network - would look good next to the lonely CIS - there is the space and demand i guess. It doesnt matter that there isnt 'customers around there' (build it and they will come)

67 floors and gold?

why would you need people to eat sandwiches there? thats nothing to do with it?! unless i have completly missed the point? :S think about it as an office development close to transport network - would look good next to the lonely CIS - there is the space and demand i guess. It doesnt matter that there isnt 'customers around there' (build it and they will come)

The thread is about the state of Victoria, so who is going to pay for the improvements? Either Network Rail or a private investor. If it's down to NR they would only invest the bear minimum as to them it is a fairly low priority station.
So the only way a really good improvment would be made would be through a developer. A developer can build a skyscraper in a number of locations, so why bother developing a station too? Because they can generate income through leasing space within the station. High value rent won't come through commuters buying a paper on their way home, it would have to come through cafes, bars etc.

I'm fairly confident that Victoria will get some kind of refurb in the future. New development is already moving out that way, and if the Boddington's brewery gets redeveloped, its going to be surrounded by new developments.

A valid point Latic, the way I see it few people connect or travel long distances from Victoria. That results in few people spending any great time there, no businesses will want to invest there as there isn't the custom. I don't think the development of the station is viable wholey as a station. It should be developed mainly as a through station and a non travelling, indoor public space. Opening some boozers, cafes, book shop etc all under a nice glass roof. I think we need to take more of a European or even US look at stations. Let Piccadilly have have a Sainbury's, WH Smith etc with frantic passengers rushing to buy a sandwich and paper before they travel to London. Let Victoria have people enjoying their lunch while not travelling anywhere. This can only come about through the private sector.

It's a good plan, however would be logistical problems getting rid of Victoria as a station. Oldham, Ashton and Rochdale would be completely cut off the network. Besides it would take me an extra half hour to get home from work which is what really counts ;) .

Ideally you could develop the car park into something similar to what you suggest - there's quite a bit of room. Incorporate Victoria itself into this and hey presto - good devlelopment in striking distance of Shudehill, Exchange Square and the Green Quarter.

Currently the main obstacle to something happening here is the railway station itself and that it is owned by a quango called Network Rail.

The overwhelming bollocks of bureaucracy (and therefore cost and delay) that surround the railway industry and the public sector is enough to get most developers jumping under trains.
Piccadilly managed to get it's remake approved before Byers renationalised the railways thank god.

On the plus side, everything has it's price and the scale of the challenge means that the eventual development will have to be on a large scale to pay for it all.

Manchester Victoria in all it's Glory

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c119/Latic12/P1010195.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c119/Latic12/P1010197.jpg

A bit optimistic..

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c119/Latic12/P1010196.jpg

The wonderful mosaic just inside the station..

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c119/Latic12/P1010199.jpg

Looks like the call to arms has been answered - by the private sector. Wonder if this means the vector arena tower or something of its ilk will be back on the agenda when they choose a developer?

What land do Network rail own here? Is it just the strip of land between Victoria and Corporation Street. This, together with the scale of development allowed on the plot will give some indication as to the scale of investment in the Victoria Station itself.

Developers line up for Manchester Station

10 February, 2006

Stanhope, Argent, Amec and Allied London in the running to rebuild Manchester's Victoria station.

Invest in some air conditioning, waiting for a train under the arena is a bit tasty, the taste being diesel.

Hope Allied London get the gig.

nice one sleepy, this is good news, I think they'll go the whole hog and have a major rebuild

Ah, Vector Victoria. I can see it now.

Ah, Vector Victoria. I can see it now.

I would be ecstatic if they revamped the Vector project, with a similar design. Maybe increase the 650ft to 800ft. We need a decent cluster around Victoria (like we'll have around Piccadilly and Quay St/Great Northern) to complement CIS. Vector and a couple of 600 footers opposite the CIS tower (on the car park - the one the Time Team dug up). I can see it now too!

Hope that the historical aspects of Victoria are maintained, it is a great building - it has just been neglected over the last few decades, with a bit of money spent on it it could be great again.

The roof is the major problem.

Good news Sleeps.
Despite it's delapidated state I really like the space inside this station. Does the amount of traffic at Victoria warrant an ambitious (if that were to be the case) redevelopment?
I don't know the amount of traffic this place see's - I get the tram up to Piccadilly on occasion.

Originally a small single storey single platform building designed by George Stephenson and completed in 1844 on Hunts Bank to serve the Manchester & Leeds trans-Pennine railway. By this time there were six railway connecting Manchester to the cities of London, Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield, Bury and Bolton - Victoria Station had come to dominate the Long Millgate area and was one of the biggest passenger stations in Britain. It was enlarged by William Dawes, who is responsible for most of the remaining facade, in 1909.
The present Edwardian building has a 160 yard facade, which still carries an iron and glass canopy bearing the names of the original destinations which it served. These canopies served as covered waiting porch for taxi cabs until they were severely damaged in the 1996 IRA bomb blast - they have now been completely restored to their former glory. The cast iron train sheds behind the facade run back for some 700 yards. Initially the station was approached by a wooden footbridge over the River Irk which has subsequently disappeared beneath culverting alongside the Cathedral, where it makes its way unobtrusively into the River Irwell.
Nowadays, largely serving destinations north and east of Manchester, it is the main terminus for the adjacent Manchester Evening News Arena, which was effectively joined onto the original station between 1992 and 1996 to designs by Ellerbe Beckett. Here it forms a major interface where the Metrolink train joins the streets of Manchester as an urban tramway. Also a major rail-bus interchange, the station is linked directly to Piccadilly Station by Metrolink.
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Victoria Station.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7d/2004-10-09_Manchester_Victoria%2C_entrance.jpg/200px-2004-10-09_Manchester_Victoria%2C_entrance.jpg

http://www.aidan.co.uk/md/ManVicStnFcd5608.jpg

http://www.aidan.co.uk/md/ManVicStnFacd4Y13.jpg

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/ivorw/manchester/2006/images/MANC2006%20014.jpg

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/ivorw/manchester/2006/images/MANC2006%20013.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/panoramas/victoria_station_places_360.shtml

following manfan-sleepeye's article...bring Vector back...

http://www.building.co.uk/mobile/mobileStory.asp?sectioncode=284&storycode=3062680

28 February 2006
Developers line up for Manchester Station

Stanhope, Argent, Amec and Allied London in the running to rebuild Manchester's Victoria station.

Developers Stanhope, Argent, Amec and Allied London have lined up to rebuild Manchester's Victoria station.

The scheme is part of Network Rail's massive overhaul of major stations across the country. Expressions of interest for massive programmes at London's Euston and Victoria stations have already been given.

Network Rail is working with Manchester council on the scheme and the two are looking for a developer to masterplan, design and build a mixed-use development with offices, retail and leisure uses.

A tall building is understood to be part of the plans, which will cover a 2.5 acre car park close to the station and a 1 acre site next to Chatham's School of Music.

A vacant 3700 m2 grade II-listed building is also likely to be part of the scheme, which will include much of the station.

Aerial shot of Victoria Station + surrounding area. Purple shading shows 2.5 acre car park

http://www.cityparkmanchester.com/images/aerial_view.jpg

here's vector in all its glory - lets hope the plans will be as impressive as this!

http://www.skyscrapernews.com/images/pics/325VectorArenaTower_pic1.jpg

Think i said to you before jerbers that i think planning permission still stands for Victoria. I suspect they will have to resubmit though if there is significant changes though.
I shall look out for any apps. which i should see cos the frontage is listed and it will affect Chethams.

Think i said to you before jerbers that i think planning permission still stands for Victoria. I suspect they will have to resubmit though if there is significant changes though.
I shall look out for any apps. which i should see cos the frontage is listed and it will affect Chethams.

Indeed you did Mr Longford. :)

What does the 'crystal ball' say next?

Another fantastic day for Manchester and it's future.

Good night. :wave:

When did the idea for the vector arena tower first see light of day, and was it just put on hold or cancelled completley? I am right to think it was the late 80's /early 90's?Not really a good time for scrapers that was it. Now that they are back in vogue could we see this rising after all ...sounds promising. I like the idea of mixed use offices/retail/leisure as part of the plans,this with the Jefferson place,Green quarter,Skyline central etc nearby should expand the city centre northwards.

It was proposed in the early/mid 90s, it apparently rested on Manchester getting the olympics. Which never happened, of course.

It's about time something was done with Victoria and area in its immediate vicinity, crazy that it's taken so long during all the regeneration that has been going on around it. I'm really looking forward to seeing what they have in store, they can make it a grand place once again hopefully, instead of a blot on the landscape.

I think it looks nice from the outside, but it seems a bit tacky and underused inside. We were talking a while back about how there's far fewer trains than there used to be. There's destinations on the facade but you can't get a train to many of them from Victoria any more. Shame.

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/mancunian/expats/s/79/79408_what_victorias_done_for_us.html

What Victoria's done for us
Susan Press

IF there were to be a consolation prize for a "Cinderella" of the railway station world, then Manchester's Victoria Station would probably be a strong contender. Considerable sums of money have been spent on its environs in the recent past - the new cathedral gardens and Urbis building opposite have enhanced the area. Yet this remains a seriously unlovely place to wait for a train. The multi-million Commonwealth Games refurbishment of its sister station, Piccadilly, a mile or so down the Metrolink line, may be a wonderful addition to the city's infrastructure. But it really emphasises Victoria's "poor relation" status. Things used to be very different. This was once the bustling place where you went to get the big trains to Scotland and the north of England. For generations of north west holidaymakers, it was the gateway to the sun, sea, and sand of favourite resorts such as Blackpool, Southport and Scarborough. However, about 20 years ago, the decision was taken to downgrade Victoria to a commuter station, and it has suffered ever since...

Ive heard some gossip :gossip: which may or may not be common knowledge.
Gmex have sold their carpark at the rear - you know that bit between Beetham and the turquiose tram bridge. Deepthroat didnt know who to - just 'a developer'.
I wouldnt get too excited though cos i doubt anything substantial could be built on that site cos it sits above the undercroft and road bridge so foundations could not be dug. I'm sure a design solution may allow for some building but i doubt it will be a tower. I may be wrong though.
A decent vertical to complement the horizontal mass of the train shed would be acceptable me thinks, but it would have to big IMO.

I get off at the GMEX stop everyday and I'm not quite sure where you mean.

The car park immediately behaind the shed is used for deliveries, access, loading and is generally full of trucks loading things through the big rear doors. They couldn't get rid of that because how else will they get things into the GMEX?

Beneath that is Trumpet Street and the Bauer Miller garage site, which they appear to be doing some work on at the moment, although mostly it appears to be ripping up concrete and laying some fresh. I've always thought that it would make a decent gallery under there, for sculture or something. With the high arches it could be quite impressive.

The car park behind that imediately next to the station is built above Deansgate locks, so I doubt they'd be knocking that down.

Do they perhaps mean the bit of the car park on the old arches on the other side of Deansgate? That would be a shame as it would end forever the chances of finding a use for the other Castlefield viaduct, and because I think if used well the arches could add something to the area. Unless someone is just going to do a Deansgate locks with them, and then put some light structure on top.

Can never tell from that 1 render of the Vector tower what it was clad with, kinda looks more concrete than glass, it was a good height too at 186m, but was that to the roof or tip of the spire?

The thing that bugs me a bit is it was cancelled just because we didn't get the olympics, now surely it wasn't going to get built just because of and especially for the olympics, what was it going to used for, Commercial/Resi/Mixed? Or was it going to get built just so we could show off a bit and say 'Oh look at our big tower, aint it mint' only for it to lie vacant for years like the Empire State/Chrysler etc. I suppose what I'm trying to say is if they really wanted to build it (and it was granted planning wasn't it?) why didn't they regardless of the Olympic bid being successful.

Can never tell from that 1 render of the Vector tower what it was clad with, kinda looks more concrete than glass

It must have been glass, look, it's reflecting stuff.

Why was the arean itself codenamed "Vector" in the first place?

It was glass - it had a gold sheen to it. Bit 80's if you ask me.All looked a bit too Dallas. Like a glass Arndale (if you know what i mean?) There was nice model kicking about which i saw. I suppose the name Vector was all thrusting and futuristic and that. Stupid 80's name aswell!

I see Aidan's spitting his dummy out again.

Mr F****** high and mighty!

http://www.webbaviation.co.uk/gallery/d/1699-1/gmex-img0350a.jpg
The car park is quite large theres also car park to the left of the image.

Oh yeah I can see New Century House reflecting in it now! No, for such a serious proposal I'm puzzled that only this (quite poor) render seems to exist. I remember seeing the model when it as displayed inside Victoria Station behind a window near to the horrid toilets.

Vector were a company putting the whole thing forward. They were responsible for the Arena I believe and that was then called the Vector Arena. The whole thing was planned for the Olympics, but only the Arena was to be built regardless.

I've got a really good colour render of the vector tower in an old copy of a City Council economic development brochure. Unfortunately I have no way of posting it on here! I've thought for a while that it needs to be posted......(how??)

It was an optimistic and quite grandiose scheme, at a time when Manchester's economy was relatively lackluster (not at all like today). The intention was that it was to provide hotel and office space.....no apartments.

I've got a really good colour render of the vector tower in an old copy of a City Council economic development brochure. Unfortunately I have no way of posting it on here! I've thought for a while that it needs to be posted......(how??)

It was an optimistic and quite grandiose scheme, at a time when Manchester's economy was relatively lackluster (not at all like today). The intention was that it was to provide hotel and office space.....no apartments.

Scan it, photshop it(if you want to?), go to photobucket, upload it, paste it in to thread.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b292/caw1234/vector.jpg

Yes please.

Well there you have it, cheers caw.

jrb - My scanner died a long time ago!

Well there you have it, cheers caw.

jrb - My scanner died a long time ago!

Buy a new one then or borrow one from a friend.

If you need anymore suggestions/advice please pm me.(lol) :)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b292/caw1234/vector.jpg

Would we be happy with that design today?

The jury's definitely out on that one.

It's still a more interesting shape than, say Inacity Tower, isn't it? :)

Like i said before - alright in 1980's downtown Dallas but not the razzzle dazzle of modern Manchester.

Like i said before - alright in 1980's downtown Dallas but not the razzzle dazzle of modern Manchester.

Martin G pleads for more time, as Mr Longford reaches a quick verdict.

"Guilty!"

The 'market' has changed beyond recognition since Vector first came in. There is no point debating the design above because it aint ever going to happen. Ever!
Ive said before that this part of town is crying out for another big building - if we do get one lets just hope its a good un'.

As an corporate HQ office block, the old design isn't a bad one, but a tower on that site will never be used as such will it?

Lets put it this way,if it was that design or no tower at all then I would be happy with it.Especially if it was black/silver reflective glass or greeny blue like Beetham,the gold is not very Manchester is it.

If only the roof of Victoria was the same as in the model I'd be happy.

This acre of land(ditch) in front of Victoria station has an awful lot of mature trees.

There could be problems?

Aerial view of Victoria station, car park, acre of land.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/pro.jpg

Hi Folks,

I was very pleased to have come accross this forum. Seeing Victoria station refurbished etc is a topic very close to my heart.

I have been reading through your forum with interest and understand that from the last two postings that Victoria station WILL be redeveloped now.

Anyone know when this is likely to begin?

With regards future potential for Victoria I can see an awful lot. With the metro now linking Piccadilly and Victoria I see no reason why you have to "put all the eggs in one basket" and Piccadilly is very overcrowded at present.

Services that could run through Victoria are as follows:

Liverpool - Newcastle
Blackpool - Scarborough
Hull-Holyhead

In addition I see no reason why complete new services couldnt be developed which could include:

Glasgow-Hull
North Wales-Yorkshire
Manchester-Llandudno

It will certainly be good to see Victoria developed again.


Best wishes,



Chris.

I can remember when Vic was one busy bustling station. They'll certainly have their work cut out to renovate it, it'll need a completely new roof for starters. It would be nice if they could restore it back to it's 'Victorian' styled glory but I guess that would be very costly.

look at what you could have won........

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y88/jcg/vector.jpg

Why wasnt this built? And Manchester wants the Olympics? :bash:

I can remember when Vic was one busy bustling station. They'll certainly have their work cut out to renovate it, it'll need a completely new roof for starters. It would be nice if they could restore it back to it's 'Victorian' styled glory but I guess that would be very costly.


When they did that Restoration programme, rather than Victoria baths, they should have put Victoria Station in and with a project to restore the roof.

Does anyone know if there is a "Friends of Victoria Station" type society out there which will be campaigning for something like this?

When they did that Restoration programme, rather than Victoria baths, they should have put Victoria Station in and with a project to restore the roof.

Does anyone know if there is a "Friends of Victoria Station" type society out there which will be campaigning for something like this?

there wouldnt be much point restoring the roof just for the sake of it. the problem with victoria is that its not that busy most of the time and especialy if phase 3 gets built it might be less busy. i dare to say that i think it needs rationalising and reconfiguring and the bits that are not needed can be sold off and that could pay to modernise the remaining areas

The airspace over Victoria is probably more valuable than the roof. Think Liverpool Street, Charing Cross, Cannon Street all with offices over the tracks.

there wouldnt be much point restoring the roof just for the sake of it. the problem with victoria is that its not that busy most of the time and especialy if phase 3 gets built it might be less busy. i dare to say that i think it needs rationalising and reconfiguring and the bits that are not needed can be sold off and that could pay to modernise the remaining areas


My problem with that though golddigga is that is the logic Birmingham has used and they have some of the countries uglist / darkest train stations in New Street and Snow Hill.

Who knows what the future will bring and that there might be a use for a Victoria Station to take pressure of Piccadily. If we build over it or around it the station might not have any capacity to grow in the future.

The reason I say protect the roof is that it's what I call hat and shoes logic. If the Roof and the foundations are ok, usually the rest of the building will survive.

My view is just to buy time and see what the future will bring.

So is there DEFINATELY a plan to develop Victoria station? Im confused.


Chris.

Received the following today off Network Rail:

Dear Sir,

I have been asked to respond to your e-mail concerning Manchester Victoria Station and hope the following helps.

As you rightly suggest, attention is required at Victoria and separately colleagues within Network Rail are actively progressing proposals for the roofs refurbishment. In parallel with this however I am separately investigating potential for further commercial development at Manchester Victoria on land both to the east and south of the station. These sites have always been considered suitable for development and the principle is supported by Manchester City Council. As a result I have just commenced a notification under OJEU (The Official Journal of the European Union) with a purpose to seek a commercial development partner with whom we can work and establish what opportunities exist. This will hopefully consider lands both within and outside the immediate station area and the roof is likely to become an integral part of that process and overall consideration.

The OJEU procedure that Network Rail is required to follow imposes its own timescale therefore it is unlikely that a partner will be selected until late summer/early autumn. However at that point Network Rail will hopefully have some informal visions for the station and immediate area which we will then hopefully be looking to progress through a master planning process.

As I hope you can see therefore, Network Rail is already actively looking to improve the station and I hope this information is off assistance to you.


Yours sincerely

J D Tym


Positive news!


Chris.

Sounds like good news to me.

With regards future potential for Victoria I can see an awful lot. With the metro now linking Piccadilly and Victoria I see no reason why you have to "put all the eggs in one basket" and Piccadilly is very overcrowded at present.

Services that could run through Victoria are as follows:

Liverpool - Newcastle
Blackpool - Scarborough
Hull-Holyhead

In addition I see no reason why complete new services couldnt be developed which could include:

Glasgow-Hull
North Wales-Yorkshire
Manchester-Llandudno

Hello Chris, thanks for posting the reply from Network Rail. I know an engineer who works for them at Piccadilly. I'll ask her sometime what they mean by 'informal visions' of the redevelopment. It sounds to me like nobody really knows at the moment what kind of development will take place......it could potentially be very low spec!

Originally, most North Wales/Liverpool - Manchester - Hull/Newcastle trains used Victoria, and it was a fume-filled dump of a place. Heaving in the 1960s, still busy by the late 1970s, but it was rank.

The reason why trains were re-routed through Piccadilly was simply becuse there was no connectivity between the north and south of the conurbation. This was at the same time that Stalybridge-Stockport trains were scrapped, which were used by people connecting from Yorkshire to the Midlands and all points south.

In the long term, the best way to ease the strain on Piccadilly would be to separate local electric services from the rest of the network......it's possible but extremely expensive (i.e. not in my lifetime)

Still think it would have been better to move Piccadilly station further out towards Ardwick rather like Milano Centrale was moved out of downtown Milan in the 1920's (look at a map of Milan, the straight road leading to the station from the centre was once a viaduct)

Then the trains that use platform 14 could run through the new station and chose their own platform. The line around Phillips park could also be utilized to feed the station and Victoria could be reduced to something like Oxford Road.

We don't want it being reduced to "something like Oxford Rd" though do we? We want it redeveloped and possibly expanded,not down sized. As Manchester gets busier and busier each year we will need another BIG station will we not? Piccadilly is at bursting point almost.

We don't want it being reduced to "something like Oxford Rd" though do we? We want it redeveloped and possibly expanded,not down sized. As Manchester gets busier and busier each year we will need another BIG station will we not? Piccadilly is at bursting point almost.

I don't think Piccadilly is at bursting point, there is a bottleneck on platforms 13/14 whilst the stub end station is under utilized. As has been mentioned earlier, some of Victoria's traffic has been moved to Piccadilly. A city the size of Manchester doesn't need two big termini, in fact more than one of these can inconvenience passengers. Milan only has Centrale, Barcelona only has Sants, Rome only has Termini.

A 14 platform station that can be used by all trains with a big concourse above the platforms and connected to the centre by metrolink would be a superb addition to the city. Victoria's days as a mainline station are gone.

I don't agree, but hey, that's ok we can agree to disagree.

No let's have a big fucking row.

Victoria's probably going to stay the way it is, and you can still call it a mainline station. It's a bit like Charing Cross, with regional/local trains only.

The answer to congested Piccadilly is to re-open the adjacent Mayfield station IMO, and increase capacity on approaches to both. This has been identified by GMPTE as a necessary future development.

I think 'the market' will sort this one out.
If Piccadilly reaches breaking point Victoria will take the strain simply because its there.
As it is i think the way it is now is about right - all be it that Victoria could do with some Piccadilly style investment.

^^Sounds good to me, at the very least it needs to be brought up to scratch with other modern stations.

It would benefit from seeing the completion the city room, new roof, office tower and all that stuff proposed before the Olympic bid. They only did half a job on it.

Longfjord and Rolls - you two both remember Victoria when it had the underpass thing to the platforms. It's a damn sight better than it was back then......it's not unpleasant now really.

I actually prefered the underpass to the stairs - mainly cos i'm a fat lazy bastard but there was a certain gritty 'romance' to that underpass (all you Brief Encounter fans out there will know what i mean) and it also reminds me of the pre MEN Arena days when i lived in Eccles and didnt have a care in the world.
I'm sure Victoria station was a lot busier in those days but then again Wagon Wheels seem a lot smaller nowadays aswell!

and curly wurly's, the king of chocolate treats

No, wagon wheels are smaller. It's criminal.

I think our hands just got bigger

there was a certain gritty 'romance' to that underpass

Now that really is extending the boundaries of poetic licence Longy....the romance of Manchester Victoria circa 1982....lol

Sure our hands got bigger Roly, I'm pretty sure my gob did too.

My hair was definitely bigger in the 80's!

Victoria had 17 platforms in the underpass era. We used to get the train from Werneth to Victoria, platform one in the stub end then walk to platform 15 for the Southport train, one Wednesday, every summer, aunties, uncles, cousins, grandparents, the lot.

Victoria is now too small to expand, there are only 4 through tracks and the stub end platforms are too short for anything more than a local train.

Knock down the Arena then. No one wants to see Take That anyway?

I really can't imagine Victoria being 17 platforms big. Where did they all fit in? If anyone has a schematic (and is brave enough to admit to it) scan it up and show me.

Victoria had 17 platforms in the underpass era. We used to get the train from Werneth to Victoria, platform one in the stub end then walk to platform 15 for the Southport train, one Wednesday, every summer, aunties, uncles, cousins, grandparents, the lot.

Victoria is now too small to expand, there are only 4 through tracks and the stub end platforms are too short for anything more than a local train.

Its just a simple case of rejigging things about, theres no reason why the met cant be moved to the right onto the car park next door, I think theres room for 4 platforms there, instead of the present two, think this would ease any potential overcrowding problems on the Met network in future too.

This moving of Met traffic would free up space for a further 4 platforms in the station ontop of the 6 that already exist. Making 6 terminal platforms in the direction of yorkshire, and 4 through platforms on the Arena end for services to Lancashire and Merseydive.

I also believe that Victoria, and Salford Central for that matter, would benefit heavily from the completion of the track at Castlefield, to give both stations access to the South Manchester electrafied services. This would improve Chapel Street's fortunes, it would also enhance the investment potential of areas like Spinningfields, Green Quater and Greengate, not to mention improving access to the Arena.

Its has the potential to be a beautiful place, and a great welcoming face for travellers to Manchester, Victoria needs to be utilised more.

Terminal platforms stop trains from going elsewhere, they have to turn back and restrict operating patterns. I cannot see more terminal platforms being built. There is a lot of prime building space on the terminal side of the station.

The transport system must be allowed to evolve and I cannot see Victoria ever being more than an inner city stop, convenient for the Arndale etc.

A Castlefield curve will allow trains to stop at all innercity stations and then carry on out of the city. A train could depart Stalybridge, stop at Guide Bridge, Fairfield, Piccadilly, Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Central, Victoria, Ashton and finish at Stalybridge.

However I still think that building some platforms south of the MSJA junction at Piccadilly would be a better option for the Manchester rail system.

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/stations/m/manchester_mayfield/manchester_mayfield_map.gif

You could also use Mayfield station but a connecting bridge would need to be built to the MSJA viaduct to make it a through station.

My own preference would be to sell Piccadilly and build a through station with a lot of platforms next to Mayfield.

That would free up some good building land and push central Manchester further out.

Terminal platforms stop trains from going elsewhere, they have to turn back and restrict operating patterns. I cannot see more terminal platforms being built. There is a lot of prime building space on the terminal side of the station.

The transport system must be allowed to evolve and I cannot see Victoria ever being more than an inner city stop, convenient for the Arndale etc.

A Castlefield curve will allow trains to stop at all innercity stations and then carry on out of the city. A train could depart Stalybridge, stop at Guide Bridge, Fairfield, Piccadilly, Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Central, Victoria, Ashton and finish at Stalybridge.

However I still think that building some platforms south of the MSJA junction at Piccadilly would be a better option for the Manchester rail system.

If Manchester is a beacon for the north, a tourist destination and a place to be, it needs more then one terminus. Train journeys have to finish somewhere, and why cant they finish in one of our oldest and potentially prettiest train stations. Victoria should be our link to yorkshire and the North East and Vise-Versa, no doubt about it.

I totally agree about utilising Mayfield, maybe releaving pressure on Piccadilly's 13 and 14, which in my opinion should only be used for Virgin trains and Airport services (meaning both have the freedom to be increased in frequency). As well as this, Mayfield can also free up Piccadilly's terminus platforms for more national services, which at present are being taken up for trains to Glossop, New Mills Central and the like.

If there are more platform spaces in our stations, this will ensure a greater potential for the number and frequency of services locally and nationally, surely a good thing.

Manchester only needs one big station, many huge cities have only one main terminal, it's easier for passengers to change trains.

I would like to see something like this, south of the junction at 13/14.

http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~carterfd/Images/Kyoto-eki%20from%20Shinkansen.jpg

Kyoto station.

There could be some regional politics going on here.
Is it a coincedence that the station that greets passengers from London and the affluent south has had heavy investment, where as the scummy northerners coming in to Victoria dont 'deserve' the same investment?

There could be some regional politics going on here.
Is it a coincedence that the station that greets passengers from London and the affluent south has had heavy investment, where as the scummy northerners coming in to Victoria dont 'deserve' the same investment?

If there was only one station, then that wouldn't be the case.

My ideas for victoria station.....

1st build vector tower but push it to over 200m mark
2nd demoilish the arena complex and build it across the road on boddingtons but bigger say about 25000 seat? Also add a ice rink or two on the side and mabbe a tower of 30 to 40 storeys.
3rd open up the station where the arena was get some light into it!! Build some more office and homes but not over the station it self.

I dont think we'll be seeing the arena going anywhere soon its probably one of the most successful in Europe.

Personally Id like to see the roof repared and thecarpark moved. Maybe sorting out the metrolink station. Then Id turn the whole jobby into a covent garden type covered arcade with shops and markets. Make the whole area a lot more bohemian and encourage visitors into the station who arent just getting trains.

The Arena is the busiest in the world apparently, yup!

^^^

I read that. Busier than Maddison Square Gardens.

There must be alot of Neil Diamond fans around!

^^^

I read that. Busier than Maddison Square Gardens.

There must be alot of Neil Diamond fans around!

I find that hard to believe, seeing as the New York Rangers and the New York Knicks play 41 home games each per season, averaging 18,000 per game, whilst the Staples Centre in LA has one hockey and two basketball teams operating out of it. They play hockey in the afternoon and convert it to basketball in the evening.

MEN constantly gets voted best in the world by the arena industry itself.

As for Victoria, it's days as a mainline station are over. The roof wasn't that good anyway. That space behind the L&Y offices would make a nice transport museum. They could move some of the buses from Cheetham hill and some of the locos from the S&I Museum.

I find that hard to believe, seeing as the New York Rangers and the New York Knicks play 41 home games each per season, averaging 18,000 per game, whilst the Staples Centre in LA has one hockey and two basketball teams operating out of it. They play hockey in the afternoon and convert it to basketball in the evening.

MEN constantly gets voted best in the world by the arena industry itself.

As for Victoria, it's days as a mainline station are over. The roof wasn't that good anyway. That space behind the L&Y offices would make a nice transport museum. They could move some of the buses from Cheetham hill and some of the locos from the S&I Museum.

Still is true though, that MEN is busiest in world. I suspect the stats are for entertainment only otherwise 41 homes games as 18,000 woulld suggest it was Madison SG's. I went to a concert at MEN and it was in the round, with a fairly small stage in the centre and that held 21,000 people. They may get more for a boxing match. Who knows, but the stats say MEN arena is busiest and that kind of accolade doesn't do the Mancunian Republic any harm.

Isaac the arena is the busiest of it's kind in the world, this is fact.

Skymann 21'000 is it's capacity I think

Anyone know any touts? I used to but lost touch these days, I want 2 tickets for GM in November any night, 17th 18th or 21st, don't care.

Isaac the arena is the busiest of it's kind in the world, this is fact.

Skymann 21'000 is it's capacity I think

Anyone know any touts? I used to but lost touch these days, I want 2 tickets for GM in November any night, 17th 18th or 21st, don't care.

Sorry - I don't know any. Guess they'll be out on the night. Those tickets sold out in a couple of hours. I'm amazed that George can still pull the punters in like that. Obviously, he can. Good luck with your quest

I know I was gutted, fastest selling concert tour in the past 30 years apparently, not played Manchester before and I doubt he will again if his touring track record is anything to go by. I want my tickets!! :)

Oh and it's all in the voice..probably showing my age there.

You're right, but it's concert tickets only. Still worth bragging about though.

You want to ask on the scouse forum for tickets.
Every tout ive ever met has been a scouser!
In fact every scouser ive ever met has been a tout come to think of it.

You want to ask on the scouse forum for tickets.
Every tout ive ever met has been a scouser!
In fact every scouser ive ever met has been a tout come to think of it.

It worries me that you seem to have had so much contact with the Scouse people. :no:

Service Details of Victoria and Piccadilly.

First Class Lounge - No at Victoria / Yes at Piccadilly
Seated Area - Yes at Victoria / Yes at Piccadilly
Waiting Rooms - No at Victoria / Yes at Piccadilly (3 infact)
Women-Only Waiting Room - Yes at Victoria / No at Piccadilly
Meeting Point - No at Victoria / Yes at Piccadilly
Trolleys - Yes at Victoria / Yes at Piccadilly
Station Buffet - Yes at Victoria / Yes at Piccadilly
Telephones - Yes at Victoria / Yes at Piccadilly
Post Box - Yes at Victoria / Yes at Piccadilly
Parcel Office - No at Victoria / Yes at Piccadilly
Tourist Information Office - No at Victoria / Yes at Piccadilly
ATM Machine - No at Victoria / Yes at Piccadilly
Bureau de Change - No at Victoria / Yes at Piccadilly
Shops - No at Victoria / Yes at Piccadilly
Customer Information System - No at Victoria / Yes at Piccadilly
Help Point - No at Victoria / Yes at Piccadilly
Information Kiosk - No at Victoria / Yes at Piccadilly
Men's Toilets - Yes at Victoria / Yes at Piccadilly
Women's Toilets - Yes at Victoria / Yes at Piccadilly
Wheelchair Toilets - Yes at Victoria / Yes at Piccadilly
Baby Changing - No at Victoria / Yes at Piccadilly

At Victoria
Operator: Northern Rail
0 Trains an hour to Airport
1 metro shuttle service
Metrolink to Bury and Altrincham

At Piccadilly
Operator: Network Rail
6 trains an hour to Airport
2 metro shuttle services
Mertrolink to Bury, Altrincham and Eccles

But victoria isn't there to be a world class gateway!
It's there to service mainly local commuters, shoppers etc. from the North, North East and West of Manchester. As a station it's quite important on a local level. Look a the lines which go into it and you'll see what I mean. It's nowhere near the main lines to the big cities but connects well Manchester's outer towns like Bolton, Wigan, Oldham, Liverpool ;), and Ashton.

It frustrates me that with a bit of restoration it could be a beautiful space.

PS it does have shops - a WSmith, a Barbers, a Hot Dog Stand, A Newsagents, a Java coffee stand a Quick Snack & a McDonalds

In future, it could become better served with trains to Heywood, Bury, Ramsbottom and Rawtenstall and proposed stations on the Huddersfield line at Clayton, Droylsden and Diggle - if only there was the vaguest hint of investment in the local rail network.

Other conurbations seem to be able to enhance and expand their rail networks (Liverpool, Glasgow and Edinburgh) so there's no reason why ours couldn't be in future.

(from Property Wk)

NR have shortlisted 4 developers for the redevelopment of Victoria Station.

Amec, Argent, CTP and Lend Lease have been asked to submit detailed proposals for the redevelopment of the area, including the Fishdock car park on Corporation St, Walkers Croft, and Victoria Buildings.

the scheme is expected to include a tall office building of more than 20 storeys, as well as retail and lesiure. :)

excellent

Encouraging news cheers,

Where is Walker's Croft ? never heard of it .

the scheme is expected to include a tall office building of more than 20 storeys, as well as retail and lesiure. :)

Good stuff WotR. It's been said this week that the possibility of Manchester getting tall office-only developments at the mo is pretty slim. Large floor plates in mid-rises is the order of the day unless very large corporate occupiers can be attracted to the city.

Still, encouraging news.

Encouraging news cheers,

Where is Walker's Croft ? never heard of it .

Its that funny, steep little road that leads to the Batcave in front of the station!
Do you know where i mean?

Oh right , i know where you mean ,i thought that would have made a great garden area ,with Cheetham's backing on to it .

That bat-cave...Allways wondered what it was for.

Perhaps the entrance to the Picc-Vic underground line?

In the sation itself there's a set of steps next to the gents toilets which are locked up an no-one ever seems to go down there. That maybe something to do with Walkers Croft.

I thinks it's the fire escape for batman!

Overall this devlopment is good news and there's quite a lot of room for this to be transformed. Don' think we'll get many highrisers round it though.

Ive reposted this in here , kindly posted by LondonLad,,,

from property week;

Network Rail shortlists four for Manchester Victoria

Amec/Morley, Argent, CTP/DevSecs and Lend Lease make the cut for huge city centre site


19.05.2006

Network Rail has shortlisted four developers for the redevelopment of Manchester's Victoria station.

Amec Developments with Morley Fund Management, Argent, CTP with Development Securities, and Lend Lease have been asked to submit detailed proposals for the redevelopment of the area, which includes several buildings next to the station.

The site comprises the 2.3 acre (0.94 ha) ‘Fishdock' surface car park, which sits on Corporation Street; the 0.77 acre (0.31 ha) ‘Walker's Croft' surface car park next to Chetham's School of Music; and the 48,000 sq ft (4,459 sq m) Victoria Buildings, a largely vacant site that forms the main frontage to the station.

Network Rail has held initial discussions with Manchester City Council about the area, and is in the process of creating a masterplan approach for an employment-led, mixed-use development that will link into a refurbished Victoria station, as revealed in Property Week (news, 10.02.06).

Andrew Purdon, associate director at GVA Grimley, which is advising on the project, said: ‘Victoria station offers an opportunity to deliver a major mixed-use scheme in the heart of Manchester.

‘Developers can take advantage of Victoria station's pivotal role in the city as a major public transport hub, while also being located less than 400 metres from the prime retail core.'

The scheme is expected to include a tall office building of more than 20 storeys, as well as retail and leisure.

The site is opposite the CIS tower, and it is understood that city planners are likely to agree to a second cluster of towers in the city outside Piccadilly. Railtrack previously had planning approval for a scheme that included a tower.

Another development site was set to change hands in Manchester city centre this week.

Reflect, the developer set up by former Orbit director Darren Jones, is in talks to make its first significant purchase for £14.8m, reflecting a yield of below 6%.

The site, which is occupied by three buildings, has the potential for more than 100,000 sq ft (9,290 sq m) of office and retail space. It is being sold by Property Route, a Manchester-based investor.

The island site is between John Dalton Street, Ridgefield, South King Street and Bow Street. The buildings are Old Colony House, 5 Ridgefield and Grange House, which total 54,733 sq ft (5,085 sq m).

The three buildings are let to 20 tenants on a range of lease lengths, generating £804,441 a year.

There are already plans in place for an eight-storey office scheme of 100,000 sq ft (9,290 sq m). Cushman & Wakefield is advising the vendor.

Ive reposted this in here , kindly posted by LondonLad,,,

from property week;

Network Rail shortlists four for Manchester Victoria

Amec/Morley, Argent, CTP/DevSecs and Lend Lease make the cut for huge city centre site


19.05.2006

Network Rail has shortlisted four developers for the redevelopment of Manchester's Victoria station.

Amec Developments with Morley Fund Management, Argent, CTP with Development Securities, and Lend Lease have been asked to submit detailed proposals for the redevelopment of the area, which includes several buildings next to the station.

The site comprises the 2.3 acre (0.94 ha) ‘Fishdock' surface car park, which sits on Corporation Street; the 0.77 acre (0.31 ha) ‘Walker's Croft' surface car park next to Chetham's School of Music; and the 48,000 sq ft (4,459 sq m) Victoria Buildings, a largely vacant site that forms the main frontage to the station.

Network Rail has held initial discussions with Manchester City Council about the area, and is in the process of creating a masterplan approach for an employment-led, mixed-use development that will link into a refurbished Victoria station, as revealed in Property Week (news, 10.02.06).

Andrew Purdon, associate director at GVA Grimley, which is advising on the project, said: ‘Victoria station offers an opportunity to deliver a major mixed-use scheme in the heart of Manchester.

‘Developers can take advantage of Victoria station's pivotal role in the city as a major public transport hub, while also being located less than 400 metres from the prime retail core.'

The scheme is expected to include a tall office building of more than 20 storeys, as well as retail and leisure.

The site is opposite the CIS tower, and it is understood that city planners are likely to agree to a second cluster of towers in the city outside Piccadilly. Railtrack previously had planning approval for a scheme that included a tower.

Another development site was set to change hands in Manchester city centre this week.

Reflect, the developer set up by former Orbit director Darren Jones, is in talks to make its first significant purchase for £14.8m, reflecting a yield of below 6%.

The site, which is occupied by three buildings, has the potential for more than 100,000 sq ft (9,290 sq m) of office and retail space. It is being sold by Property Route, a Manchester-based investor.

The island site is between John Dalton Street, Ridgefield, South King Street and Bow Street. The buildings are Old Colony House, 5 Ridgefield and Grange House, which total 54,733 sq ft (5,085 sq m).

The three buildings are let to 20 tenants on a range of lease lengths, generating £804,441 a year.

There are already plans in place for an eight-storey office scheme of 100,000 sq ft (9,290 sq m). Cushman & Wakefield is advising the vendor.

Fingers crossed for Vector Tower 2 (only maybe even taller). Two clusters - one around Victoria/Greengate and the other Piccadilly would be great. Also there'll be a third cluster from Hardman Sq to Central Spine with Beetham in the middle. Exciting times for our great city.

I think i have said before that the Victoria/ Miller street area is ripe for a 'cluster' and i know the City are keen to promote tall developments in that area should they arise (as mentioned in the article).
I suppose it just up to developers to put forward schemes and if they do there is every chance they will go through.

It's very frustrating the length of time these things take to come to fruition if at all, London on the other hand seem to have all manner of tall buildings shooting up no matter the implications for the surroundings or the view they might block.

It's very frustrating the length of time these things take to come to fruition if at all, London on the other hand seem to have all manner of tall buildings shooting up no matter the implications for the surroundings or the view they might block.

Ooh roly you are way off their! London, and the appropiate planning depts in the various boroughs, are ruthless with developers and run them ragged compared to manchester.
Tall building developers in London would kill to deal with our planning dept. I know the planning officer for southwark, where one of piano's schemes is hoping to go, and he is as vicous as a pit bull thats swallowed a bee when dealing with it. The Swiss Re went through the mangle for years before approval, not only from planners but the whole army heritage nazis, and many of the current schemes are being treated the same way.
Dont be fooled - London is probably one of the hardest cities in the world to build big.

Of course of course, and so it should be. But I recall watching a program not long ago[a month or so] on Channel4 about skyscrapers in London and even with those pit bulls at planning a tower that will block the view of St Pauls[a BIG no no] got the go ahead, it seems they didn't check how it would look from ALL angles. I was surprised to say the least.Wish I could remember what it was called now.

Yes i saw that aswell - was it channel 4 news? Anyway they dropped a bollock with that one didnt they? There is loads of political shenanigans in London to contend with with the Mayor's office putting pressure on individual boroughs to oppose or support certain schemes and there is a certain amount of posturing that goes on.
In a way we are lucky that in Manchester what Howard wants he usually gets and therefore things run quite smoothly. Compared to London though i just dont think we compete with the serious big money developers putting up the cash and the buildings and as we all know - Money Talks! That is what holds back many big Manchester schemes - IMO.

I think Manchester is very sympathetic/open/accessible/positive to new build. It's got its head screwed on in that dept.

Yes i saw that aswell - was it channel 4 news? Anyway they dropped a bollock with that one didnt they? There is loads of political shenanigans in London to contend with with the Mayor's office putting pressure on individual boroughs to oppose or support certain schemes and there is a certain amount of posturing that goes on.
In a way we are lucky that in Manchester what Howard wants he usually gets and therefore things run quite smoothly. Compared to London though i just dont think we compete with the serious big money developers putting up the cash and the buildings and as we all know - Money Talks! That is what holds back many big Manchester schemes - IMO.
Aye, you're probably right. Frustrating isn't it.

No shortage of development space in that area. Some wonderful contrasts of old and new around there.

More interesting news on the proposals to develop Victoria Station. Taken from todays Business section in the MEN.

Plans soar again

PLANS for a skyscraper at Victoria Station could be revived 14 years after they were first proposed.

Network Rail has invited four developers to submit detailed proposals for the redevelopment of two car parks next to the station and Corporation Street.

Network Rail has selected a shortlist of Amec Developments/Morley Fund Management, Argent, which is already developing next to Piccadilly Station, CTP/Development Securities and Lend Lease, to proceed to the second stage of a development competition.

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The Network Rail assets which are available for development include The Fishdock car park at Corporation Street, and the smaller Walker's Croft car park next door, along with Victoria Buildings, a largely vacant period building.

Advisers say that early discussions with planners at Manchester city council have focused on a major, employment-led, mixed-use development that complements and links into a revitalised and refurbished Victoria Station.

Vector

Plans for a mighty "crystal tower" rising above Victoria Station were first mooted in 1992 by Vector Investments.

It proposed a £220m scheme which included a 46-storey skyscraper which would contain offices and a hotel.

The 1992 plans also included the M.E.N. Arena and a cinema complex, which were the only two parts of the scheme to be completed.

The cinema closed and was converted into offices.

More recently, Victoria Station has attracted attention not for what's going up, but for what's falling down.

In 2003 glass panels fell out of the roof of the 150-year-old station, leading to a £16m repairs bill.

Redeveloping the station and the surrounding land has fallen behind in the list of priorities as attention focuses further south and east at Piccadilly and the Northern Quarter.

Andrew Purdon, associate within GVA Grimley's development team, who are advising on the project, said: "Victoria Station offers a first class opportunity to deliver a major mixed-use scheme in the heart of Manchester.

"Developers can take advantage of Victoria Station's pivotal role in the city as a major public transport hub while also being locatedless than 400 metres from the prime retail core. We are delighted by the quality of the shortlist and are looking forward to receiving a selection of exciting proposals in the coming months."

Nick Whipp, partner at GVA Grimley, added: "Manchester Victoria is the final piece in the jigsaw in regenerating the northern part of the city centre following the IRA bomb in 1996. The Arndale extension, New Cathedral Street and The Triangle are looking fantastic and the next logical step is to create something of similar quality in and around the station."

It is not yet clear whether any of the developers will revive the original skyscraper plan. However, city property pundits say the time is right for more tall buildings.

Martyn Markland, director of investment and development at Atisreal's Manchester office, has lived and worked in the world's new skyscraper capital, Shanghai. He says it could be the way ahead for Manchester too.

Environment

"The easiest way of understanding where the future lies for our built environment is to buy an airline ticket to the city of Shanghai. To my mind, tall buildings are vital if you want your city to be served by world class transport infrastructure, the life blood of any truly great modern city," he said.

Mr Markland says that skyscrapers help concentrate workers and visitors in small areas, which makes expensive public transport more viable by providing pools of willing users.

"Manchester may be a lot different to Shanghai, but I believe the same principles could be used to bring about dramatic change and create the UK's own version of a 22nd century city. But first the city needs a shared vision and one that politicians, landowners and residents all buy into," said Mr Markland.

Promising :)

Promising :)

Very promising

Seems strange mind, I'd imagine it would be fairly unlikely or feasible to just... re-use a plan from so long ago? Would that tower fit into the skyline? It was nice.. if not a little bulky, and would be really nice to have something so prominent going up there to help bring the Arndale and CIS into the density of the Irwell developments..

Just have to wait and see I guess...

You can probably forget a bigger station then. It seems network rail's only plans for Victoria are to develop the site for non rail use and not more rail use.

Two left in the running for Manchester's Victoria Station project

Network Rail has cut the shortlist to redevelop the station from four to two


21.09.2006

By Heather Greig-Smith

Joint ventures between AMEC and Morely Fund Management and CTP with Development Securities will now compete to redevelop ‘Fishdock’ - a 2.3 acre surface car park on Corporation Street, as well as ‘Walker’s Croft’ car park, parts of the station and Victoria Buildings, a largely vacant 48,000 sq ft (4,459 sq m) office building.

The scheme could hold a 1 m sq ft (92,902 sq m) mixed-use scheme and is expected to include a tall building.

The original shortlist also included Argent and Lend Lease. Network Rail will make a decision on its partner in the next eight weeks.





..

Ta Sleepy.
I so hope that a decent height tower will get prosposed. I keep walking down Miller st and that area HAS to be reserved for uber tall buildings. Its the only 'Skyscraper boulevard' that we could have.

The height of the proposed office building is disappointing. Hopefully the proposal will eventually include apartments and become taller?

Meanwhile, Network Rail is looking for a partner to redevelop Victoria station, and commentators say this area is one to watch.

‘Where does the city grow now?’ says David Porter, partner at Knight Frank. ‘Towards Piccadilly and then the area around Victoria.’

Hughes says Ask is discussing the connection with Network Rail and looking at the footfall between the sites. Victoria station is a complex scheme as it is an operational station and must be kept running throughout the process.

Four parties had been shortlisted for the redevelopment, which could hold 1m sq ft (92,902 sq m). They were Amec and Morley; Argent; Lend Lease; and CTP with Development Securities. As Property Week went to press, the list was down to two: Amec and Morley, and CTP with Development Securities.

The redevelopment includes the 2.3 acre (0.94 ha) Fishdock, which is currently used as a surface car park, Walkers Croft – a sunken site of less than an acre and Victoria Buildings – 48,000 sq ft (4,459 sq m) of largely vacant offices attached to the station.The scheme is expected to include an office building of more than 20 storeys, as well as retail and leisure. GVA Grimley is advising Network Rail.

Ta jerbs.

Said it before and ill say it again. Miller street is the only area we really have that could be a super cluster. Something really impressive.
I hope to god that the powers that be see it like me.

Ta jerbs.

Said it before and ill say it again. Miller street is the only area we really have that could be a super cluster. Something really impressive.
I hope to god that the powers that be see it like me.

You're not wrong there Mez. It'd be a good start if the Victoria Stn office tower at least matched the CIS tower. That area is perfect for a abit of serious density.

Im doing some work on this project, on monday im going up on the roof of the arndale tower to take some photos. while im there, ill take a few pan shots of the city.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b292/caw1234/vector.jpg

This will NEVER be built in Manchester. Its far too good, far to classy and looks too damn nice to be built here. Expect some crappy box building to be be developed here instead.

This developments probably older than you are, judging that silly post. It was planned with the previous olympic bid in mind. But yep, correct it will never get built. I dont even like it if im honest.

Manchester's a nice city. On earth you talking about.

This developments probably older than you are, judging that silly post. It was planned with the previous olympic bid in mind. But yep, correct it will never get built. I dont even like it if im honest.

Manchester's a nice city. On earth you talking about.

He's not worth the reply MG - a wind-up merchant.

Ta jerbs.

Said it before and ill say it again. Miller street is the only area we really have that could be a super cluster. Something really impressive.
I hope to god that the powers that be see it like me.

I believe they do.

Now THAT ^ is a tease!!!!!

I think that the removal of the Met from the station will do the place no harm at all. Move it onto Corporation Street and have it joining the Bury line up near the Parker Building instead.

Victoria is such a shit hole at the minute, with the roof and the piss poor layout that I think the whole place apart from the front should be cleared and started again, incorporating a Vector like hotel as a money raising tool for the complete overhaul of the station is a start.

I see an LBC application has gone in for work to start on the roof at Victoria. I suppose that means no Vector but at least you wont get rusty water down the back of your neck.

I think that the removal of the Met from the station will do the place no harm at all. Move it onto Corporation Street and have it joining the Bury line up near the Parker Building instead.

Victoria is such a shit hole at the minute, with the roof and the piss poor layout that I think the whole place apart from the front should be cleared and started again, incorporating a Vector like hotel as a money raising tool for the complete overhaul of the station is a start.

The metrolink station at Victoria is actually quite important. It's the key way to get between Victoria and Piccadilly stations, the two biggest in the city so getting rid of it wouldn't be a great idea.

The metrolink station at Victoria is actually quite important. It's the key way to get between Victoria and Piccadilly stations, the two biggest in the city so getting rid of it wouldn't be a great idea.

Its still there, just on the outside and not piercing the station in two

There could be a nice square created behind the facade of Victoria Station.
Take the roof off completely, and contruct a glass cloister around two sides of the square and run the tram tracks along the corporation street side leaving a decent sized public space.

There could be a nice square created behind the facade of Victoria Station.
Take the roof off completely, and contruct a glass cloister around two sides of the square and run the tram tracks along the corporation street side leaving a decent sized public space.

Thats the stuff

Whatever they do with walkers croft, I hope the trees stay. Gives it such a classy 'feel' i find. Gard du nord! gar du nord!

A rather interesting proposal for Cheethams School of Music for the large ditch opposite Victoria Station / MEN.

http://www.stephenson-bell.com/85103.jpg

school of music

Chetham’s School of Music is the largest and premier Music School in the UK and is unique to the region as the only Music School based in the North of England. Chetham’s provides world class education to talented young musicians from all over the country and the world.

The existing medieval building contains the first public library in England, which boats amongst its’ scholars a certain Karl Marx. This medieval heart of Manchester features prominently in the history of the North West and is an architectural gem. It is currently not readily accessible to the public and one of the main design principles was to create a dialogue between the existing buildings, the new school and its wider context.

The musical heart of the School is in a building which is no longer fit for purpose and the School has outgrown its current building provision for teaching and learning through its increased success and profile.

Our brief was to create a unique contemporary new building for the musical and academic teaching facilities, providing a state-of-the-art environment which will be a fitting platform for the students. A public auditorium will allow Chetham’s students to display their talents in a cultural centre for Manchester and the North West. The building itself will, alongside ongoing regeneration in Central Manchester, provide an iconic opportunity for the educational and cultural standing of Manchester to consolidate its position on the international scene.

http://www.manchester-hotelsonline.com/images/Corporation-Street.jpg

Would the Chet's development mean we lose the little brown Snippers building? Shame, if so, I quite like it.

yes definite references to the rear of Urbis which this proposal would overlook. Looks very, very promising and another statement building for that part of the city. I hope this comes to fruition. It will certainly also help raise the profile of Cheethams which like Rylands library is yet another of Manchester's largely unheralded but neverthless, world class assets.

Thanks for that Sleepyone. I was wondering when someone was going to tackle this wasted space (was actually hoping for a new open space). What I'm gutted about is that the development looks like it stops short of flattening that awful little hairdressers opposite the station.

It is currently not readily accessible to the public and one of the main design principles was to create a dialogue between the existing buildings, the new school and its wider context.

Are they saying that they've grown out of their current building & will move in to this building to leave the medieval buildings to the public?

Sorry for being thick, but can someone explain where this is in comparison to Victoria Station, Urbis and the Printworks? Or name the buildings around it in the model?

http://www.stephenson-bell.com/85103.jpg

And where is it in relation to this proposal?

http://www.maghull-group.co.uk/images/CityBuildings01.jpg

I think Victoria station is running along the bottom left hand corner with Urbis just poking in at the top left?

http://www.stephenson-bell.com/85103.jpg

Going by that, no, the snippers barbers wouldnt be in the way. That little gap to the left of the proposal is where walkers croft goes under Victoria station.

A very cute little feature if you ask me. I hate that Manchester's 'back streets' are pretty much useless. Under this proposal, that little medievel cobbledy, tree ligned street will become a dumping ground for a set of heavy duty wheely bins and cheap car parking for Cheethams staff. A complete waste. Back Piccadilly could give so much more depth to the Northern Quarter but no, it too is a dumping ground.

Surely something could be done with this whole area apart form another glass building to fill it up.

A unique public realm could be created here. There's nothing quite like it in Manchester.

Yes, keep the trees!!!

I think coming out of Victoria station to find a big glass slab in your face would change the area for the worst and make it feel claustraphobic.

Especially since you get quite a vista.

judging by the model, the scale and massing does not seem that much greater than those for the old Victorian railway offices that stood here til the late 1970s.

I remember being very disappointed when these were demolished and the present landscaping put in: we lost the Dickensian experience of diving under the arch and down the steps into the nether-world of Walker's Croft. If these proposals can recover something of that, then it would be positive in my view.

In general, Manchester's buildings do not gain by having vistas opened up in front of them - and even less by the gratuitious intrusion of trees and grass. One of the things I most like about the Civil Justice Centre is the way it is crowded in on all sides, and can only be seen obliquely.

On the other hand, Chets used to be almost totally hidden away, at least the present view from Victoria allows people to know it is there. So a lot will depend on how well the new build can act as a public face to Chets.

And I suppose the alternative would be for Chets to expand along Fennel Street; which would be very tricky to achieve without losing altogether the relationship with the Collegiate Church.

In my (and a lot of people's) opinion, trees can never be intrusive...there can never be too many trees, they lift a place so well and add beauty and fragility to the landscape.

In my (and a lot of people's) opinion, trees can never be intrusive...there can never be too many trees, they lift a place so well and add beauty and fragility to the landscape.

Hear Hear Bim!

I WILL resurrect Piccadilly Gardens when I make my millions via funk.

In my (and a lot of people's) opinion, trees can never be intrusive...there can never be too many trees, they lift a place so well and add beauty and fragility to the landscape.

well it takes all sorts I suppose.

Manchester does not have much in the way of planned civic space - indeed with the demise of Crown Square, arguably none at all.

But it has rather a lot of voids where buildings have been demolished; and because no one ever got round to building a replacement, are now used for car-parking. Around Victoria, Long Millgate is the classic example. What we would now give to have the Manchester Arms back again? (and yes I know that in its latter days it was no more than a knocking shop).

Puttting a few trees round these carparks is no substitute, for properly maintaining and restoring the urban grain.

In my (and a lot of people's) opinion, trees can never be intrusive...there can never be too many trees, they lift a place so well and add beauty and fragility to the landscape. Seconded.

Victoria could rival Piccadilly in new age of the train

Alan Salter

VICTORIA station in Manchester could become a serious rival to Piccadilly in a proposed major shake-up of the region's rail services.

Proposals include sending many more trains into Victoria instead of Piccadilly; rebuilding Salford Crescent a quarter of a mile further north; creating interchange stations at Cornbrook, Eccles, Guide Bridge, and Stalybridge; and closing the little-used Ardwick, Denton, and Reddish South stations.

The ideas come from Network Rail and are going out for consultation before firm plans are drawn up.

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They take account of the huge growth in Greater Manchester's economy and a predicted 13 per cent increase in rail passengers over the next 10 years.

Suggestions also include longer trains, faster journeys and adding extra services to ease overcrowding.

Between them, Manchester's stations take almost 23 million passengers a year, about 19 million of them at Piccadilly.

With the "loop" line from Oldham and Rochdale converting to Metrolink shortly, and pressure growing at overcrowded Piccadilly, Network Rail wants to switch many services. But the grand old Victoria station would also need redeveloping.

Distribution

Principal route planner Paul Banks said: "The centre of Manchester is moving towards Victoria. There are lots of options where we can better distribute people around the city.

"Clearly, it is not as striking as Piccadilly is today. And if we want it to be the peer of Piccadilly - which a lot of people think it is - it needs to be revitalised."

The company is already talking to developers about building on land next to the station, which would help pay for its refurbishment.

Salford Crescent suffers overcrowding, particularly during university terms and moving it would create more space, making room for longer trains along the congested Bolton corridor, as well as one extra train an hour to and from Blackpool.

Guide Bridge station at Audenshaw, which is close to the M60, could become a park and ride station and passengers could go from there into the city.

Little-used Eccles station could be linked with the Metrolink stop to give train passengers a way to travel to Salford Quays.

A new station could be built at Cornbrook as a Metrolink interchange. Ardwick station has just five regular passengers a day, while Denton and Reddish South have just one train a week and they look doomed.

But the route strategy looks at almost 80 different ways of improving services and also recommends more trains between Manchester and Liverpool.

Chief executive John Armitt said: "The railway in the north west is a successful one and many routes are busy.

"The strategy looks at the challenges facing the rail industry in the north west.

"It presents ambitious, but realistic options for getting the best out of the network to cope with predicted passenger growth over the next 10 years."

The consultation will last until January and a final document will go to the government in the spring.


..

Thanks for that sleepy.

The full 104 page consultation document is available here (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browseDirectory.aspx?dir=\RUS%20Documents\Route%20Utilisation%20Strategies\North%20West&pageid=2895&root=). I've just started to read it.

I know I really ought to have better things to do with my time on a Saturday afternoon, but it's dark, it raining and I don't particularly care about the football results. So it's the best offer I have - certainly beats doing the ironing, which is what I'd be doing but for the internet.

Surely the Castlefield curve would be a much needed element of Victoria becoming a more used station.

Surely the Castlefield curve would be a much needed element of Victoria becoming a more used station.

Well Transpennine trains can already make their way through Manchester on existing track calling at Victoria instead of Pic without any need for the curve; and it seems these routes are the key ones that may be switched. Also for Manchester terminating services the route to Liverpool is irrelivant anyway. Although the curve obviously increases route options, its use would increase problems on the Oxford Rd viaduct, which is the biggest problem in terms of rail infrastructure we have anyway.

The full 104 page consultation document is available here (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browseDirectory.aspx?dir=\RUS%20Documents\Route%20Utilisation%20Strategies\North%20West&pageid=2895&root=). I've just started to read it.

I've just finished reading the whole thing, and it's disappointing to say the least. All it does is point out the flaws in the current network, and simultaneously tries to justify them.

I think it's a bit of a cop-out in so far as it's admitting there's very little money available for Manchester and Liverpools' heavy rail networks, and that there are no concrete plans for either until the details of the WCML timetable '2008' are known.

What a shit document.

Thanks for that sleepy.

The full 104 page consultation document is available here (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browseDirectory.aspx?dir=\RUS%20Documents\Route%20Utilisation%20Strategies\North%20West&pageid=2895&root=). I've just started to read it.

I know I really ought to have better things to do with my time on a Saturday afternoon, but it's dark, it raining and I don't particularly care about the football results. So it's the best offer I have - certainly beats doing the ironing, which is what I'd be doing but for the internet.

I'm disappointed that it misses out on proposals to improve service to East Manchester, and Sportcity in particular. If Marple trains are to be routed into Victoria along the link past the City of Manchester Stadium, then a station built there would provide a direct service to Sportcity, and would also link up directly with the Metrolink. If passengers could transfer to the Metrolink at Sportcity, there would be little demand for a service all the way into Piccadilly.

Purely gossip (albeit well informed gossip) but expect something BIG to come in soon in and around Victoria station (and i dont mean that Burger King triple burger thingy)

Sounds interesting, cheers.

Ooo!

Vector Victoria.

in AND around:)

Purely gossip (albeit well informed gossip) but expect something BIG to come in soon in and around Victoria station (and i dont mean that Burger King triple burger thingy)

VECTOR 2!
A Victoria cluster taking in the CIS would be something to behold!

Purely gossip (albeit well informed gossip) but expect something BIG to come in soon in and around Victoria station (and i dont mean that Burger King triple burger thingy)

40? 50? ...60?

.........70 ?!?!!?!?! :rock:

(We're easily excited arn't we!)

.........70 ?!?!!?!?!

Done!

If any 70 stories are going up, most likely is near Piccadilly but if someone wants to build one near Victoria I am not going to stop them.

You lot are height obssessed!
I just said BIG not tall!
Could be both for all i know (which is very little to be honest).

You lot are height obssessed!

Yep we are.

can you give us any more on this Longy? anything?

Its out to competition and they are down to the final two.
Allegedly!

Whats your job longy, design or something?

Its out to competition and they are down to the final two.
Allegedly!

Cool thanks for that, do you know if it's for resi or ofiice or leisure? Sorry to press you:nuts:

Whats your job longy, design or something?

Professional know-it-all.

Funny guy, come on now spill the beans, I'll get it out of you in the end.....

Hes in with the in crowd. The have architectural love in's where the keys to some of the best manc buildings are put in a fruit bowl.

Cool thanks for that, do you know if it's for resi or ofiice or leisure? Sorry to press you:nuts:

Dont know TBH but i suspect Mixed Use (isnt everything nowadays?)

Hes in with the in crowd. The have architectural love in's where the keys to some of the best manc buildings are put in a fruit bowl.

http://people.bu.edu/rcarney/leigh/images/abigailb&w.jpg

Obscure 70's literary reference

Purely gossip (albeit well informed gossip) but expect something BIG to come in soon in and around Victoria station (and i dont mean that Burger King triple burger thingy)


Longy ,, if you were a woman you'll be a right cock teaser :laugh:

Longy ,, if you were a woman you'll be a right cock teaser :laugh:

That would imply that a) i have something to offer and b) you would want it.

I dont know nuffin , honest. Just overheard a bit of gossip and the words '..not at liberty to say..." were in there so i must respect that.
All i know is that there is something coming on the horizon. Whether it gets built or not...........!

That would imply that a) i have something to offer and b) you would want it.

I dont know nuffin , honest. Just overheard a bit of gossip and the words '..not at liberty to say..." were in there so i must respect that.
All i know is that there is something coming on the horizon. Whether it gets built or not...........!

After having carefully read through your clues, I'm pretty sure Manchester will soon be home to some sort of Millennium Dome meets Birmingham Bullring construction... :hammer:

All I know is that there is something coming on the horizon...

Aw, you cockteaser you. Spill!

Yakub Qureshi

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....yscrapers.html

Ian Simpson on the Beetham TowerTHE man behind Europe's tallest residential building has said Manchester must shake-off its Victorian heritage and embrace the skyscraper.

Ian Simpson, the architect who created the 47-storey Beetham Tower on Deansgate, said the city needed more multi-storey landmarks to become a world-class destination.

Mr Simpson, who was responsible for redesigning the city's centre after the IRA bomb as well as creating a string of eye-catching structures in Manchester, praised city officials for backing the project.

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Talks are also taking place over the creation of 60-storey Inacity towers in Piccadilly and plans were last week submitted for a 62-floor residential building on a site opposite Victoria station.
However, heritage group Manchester Civic Society has expressed concern about the number of proposed high rise structures and urged the city council to draw up a plan detailing where and when tall buildings should be allowed.

But Mr Simpson hit out at critics who, he said, were too concerned about maintaining the city's Victorian appearance at the expense of distinctive architecture.





The Beetham TowerHe said: "This will be just one of a number of buildings that will start to define our skyline. Manchester is only just starting to take shape. We need to grasp this opportunity and go for it and not worry about the Victorian architecture.

"What's being created is not in conflict with the past, but will complement it."

Beetham Tower's Hilton hotel, which occupies the first 23 floors of the building, was opened last month. Residential apartments on the remaining floors will be completed early next year.

Mr Simpson was speaking at a lunch organised by the Manchester Jewish Community Care to raise money for the Nicky Day Centre for elderly and disabled people.

Around 300 guests at the Hilton also heard from Sir Howard Bernstein, the council's chief executive, who spoke about recent improvements to the city.

Are you sure this isn't one of the MENs now infamous factual cockups?

Sounds like they are refering to the Canopus planning app. they said was going in last week, it hasn't. And its unlikely its 62 storeys aswell.

On the other hand this could be one of the biggies in a gateway location that Longy and Bammy hinted at.

They've cocked up twice now if it is. Is this the same reporter as the last one? They say plans submitted. They must be wrong.

They mean Canopus. And they are wrong on so many levels.

Longy did mention something big around this area a week or so ago...

Longy did mention something big around this area a week or so ago...

Yes - Miller Street - but that's not this. They are referring to Canopus. MEN are way behind and ill-informed.

Wheres jrb when you need him. Arrrrhhh

They mean Canopus. And they are wrong on so many levels.

Very funny!

A little birdy told me that there is a tower planned for the car park of victoria station, something similar to the old arena tower proposed many moons ago

Fingers crossed