I know this doesn't relate 100% to architecture, but it does in some sense; and I feel like these are important facts that everybody here should know:

First off, I am currently a medical student in the U.S. with plans to live in Athens after I complete my studies. I am currently doing a preceptorship at Σωτηρία Hospital in Athens.

A new movie is out in the U.S. called SiCKO by Michael Moore. The movie shows the great flaws of the US Medical System, relative to the medical systems of other countries.

When I first came this summer, I was half-scared at what I would find in a public hospital here in Greece. Turns out, I was quite impressed... Granted that Σωτηρία is no jewel, the mere fact that it is public and exists is enough to sell me on this medical system any day of the week. In the US, the only "public" hospitals are those for veterans. Every other hospital, with the exception of 1 or 2 remaining (more or less destined for demolition), is private.

Architecturally speaking, this means that all the money spent goes to the great technology you see in movies (and in private hospitals in Greece) as well as sparkling hospitals and generally the best quality of care in the world - for those who can afford it. Σωτηρία might not be as glamorous as private hospitals, but it certainly gets the job done for patients. CTs, MRIs, angiograms, drugs, and all that good stuff appears to be done efficiently on a daily basis. Of course, the doctors don't type on laptops and there isn't a monitor over every patient's bed. The system is such - you can tell that they are trying to save as much money as possible without significantly sacrificing patient care. And things are looking up for the better - currently the hospital building in which I am working is being renewed. Doctors there also point to the general upgrading seen lately.

Of course, many problems remain in the Greek system (both public and private) - such as physician salaries (which are high in the states due to the system's private nature and limited number of physicians by law), and technology (one of the factors that drives up costs).

The movie SiCKO addresses many of these issues while highlighting a report that apparently few know of: the World Health Organization's Ranking of 191 Medical Systems, by country, published in 2000. In this report are the following rankings:

United States: 37th

Greece: 14th

France: 1st

The link: http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_en.pdf

Page 152
Countries listed alphabetically
Ranks are the numbers farthest to the right


It's very important we realize that Greece comes with both its bad and its good characteristics. And relatively speaking, its health care system is one of its good ones - something I'm sure most people do not understand.

Interesting and topical. I heard about Michael Moore's latest doco. To be honest, Greece doesn't exactly come to mind when I think of quality health care, not only because of what I've heard, but what I experienced.

Yes, they took care of my injury, but the hospital looked like it was overdue for an upgrade. Of course that was only one hospital, but it was one of Thessaloniki's biggest and most established institutions. Also, the corrupt aspects of under the table envelopes and physicians smoking in hospital is just not kosher with me. I don't know how serious the first problem is, but the second one where I walked into the staff room with my cousin's husband (a doctor himself) and saw a little 'kafeneio' of doctors puffing away, really left me unimpressed. Maybe it was just an isolated case?

Anyway, it's good to see that a public health service operates, albeit needing some reform, as well as your personal account, which sounds more encouraging.

Things are changing in Greece. New hospitals are being built at lightning speed across the country. Keep in mind Greece is a "newly-rich country" so-to-speak...the funds available now to build new hospitals were not there 20 years ago (There's a hospital thread somewhere here in Hellenic Agora; I think it's under πανεθνικά/nationwide). But, yes, the system ranks #14. It has its problems but that's a very good ranking.

Here in the US, I'm dealing wtih exactly the things you see in Sicko. We all think that there's nothing wrong with the American health care system, until you actually get sick. Just wait. I'm one of the lucky ones, because it's not life threatening, but it could have been (that's why I needed a test, to make sure).

as a medical doctor also,i have to admit that the medical system in greece is not as bad as some want to present it.
private hospitals may function a bit better but this is bc of less bureaucracy which unfortunately is unavoidable in the public sector.
when it comes to knowledge and services provided ,greek hospitals are very good.
and just to keep something in mind.....if something is not working well in greek hospitals it doesnt mean that it actually works in other countries!!
i was talking to a norwegian friend recently who lives and works in norway,he told me that they also put patients in hospital corridors!!!(rantza)
and this happens in norway,one of the RICHEST countries in the world!

Norway ranked #11 on the study, just 3 notches above Greece.

and just to keep something in mind.....if something is not working well in greek hospitals it doesnt mean that it actually works in other countries!!

Exactly! I know from experience that hospitals in the Netherlands have similar problems to Greek hospitals. Long waiting lists, budgetary restraints etc etc. Greeks should start realizing that the sun is not always brighter on the other side!!

Exactly! I know from experience that hospitals in the Netherlands have similar problems to Greek hospitals. Long waiting lists, budgetary restraints etc etc. Greeks should start realizing that the sun is not always brighter on the other side!!

:okay: Exactly

That's what I'm always saying, but who listens to me? As someone who's lived in 2 countries outside Greece (USA + France), beleive me, the sun isn't any brighter.

I hear from Greeks all the time who have temporarily lived abroad for work, study, etc, and all if them get disillusioned; the host country isn't what they thought it would be. This isn't 1960 anymore. Greece isn't a poor rural country anymore, and the USA doesn't have abundant factory jobs. Things are different in 2007, but a lot of people in Greece still have that old mentality that the grass is always greener on the other side.

Greece has bureaucracy and red tape...but longer life exptancies, lower crime, better health care. Each industrialized country has its own set of problems.

As for the rising cost of living...welcome to the club. This is the so-called "Western" way of life. I remember before the Euro was introduced, people in Greece were not used to having "cents" (the drachma unit had a smal value, but prices were rounded in fives). My cousins who used to visit me in Chicago, they used to make fun of me for hanging on to my quarters, dimes, nickels, and pennies, instead of just tossing them somewhere around the house and losing them (it's money!!)...well, now with the Euro, and the euro cents, and rising cost of living, people in Greece are hanging on to those coins for dear life. :tongue2:

BTW: WHO study, top 50 countries:

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 Britain
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 Unites Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_en.pdf

I think the majority of complaints about the Greek health system by regular folk come/came from easily identifiable and out in the open things, which in my opinion was bad infrastructure.

The structural and bureaucratic problems are not limited to the Greek health system, but bad infrastructure sticks out like a sore thumb.

The most obvious improvement has been in the building of many new hospitals throughout the nation.

Xanthi
http://www.jp-avax.gr/FILES/photo_projects/750x/tn_nosok_xanthis_100596_307.jpg

Kalamata (my hometown)
http://www.jp-avax.gr/FILES/photo_projects/750x/tn_nosok_kalam_010300_536.jpg

Rhodes
http://www.jp-avax.gr/FILES/photo_projects/750x/tn_Rhodes_Hospital.jpg

Kalamata is your hometown? My father's side of the family are Messenians :)

Yes. Also RaleighNC and Pytheas (where is he????) are Kalamatiani.

The most obvious improvement has been in the building of many new hospitals throughout the nation.



Yep. The new hospitals across the country are very noticeable.

Yes. Also RaleighNC and Pytheas (where is he????) are Kalamatiani.

I am half. :)

Σύστημα υγείας στην Ελλάδα;;; καλά... ας γελάσω... Μιλάμε για την απόλυτη διαφθορά, το απόλυτο νταβατζηλίκι, την απόλυτη ξεφτίλα...Φακελάκι κι άγιος ο θεός.

Αν δεν έχεις λεφτά δεν γίνεσαι καλά... Και μιλάμε πάντα για τη δημόσια και δωρεάν για όλους (λέμε τώρα....) υγεία...

Ωραίες οι φωτογραφίες σας παιδιά... αλλά κάντε καμιά βόλτα από ΑΧΕΠΑ και Ιπποκράτειο (Θεσσαλονίκη) και μετά ελάτε να συζητήσουμε για το σύστημα υγείας στην Ελλάδα. Ακόμα και το μοντέρνο Παπαγεωργίου (στη Δυτική Θεσσαλονίκη) έχει 60 και 70% ελλείψεις σε γιατρούς και υπολειτουργεί.

Hi all,

I'm new here, though I've been reading the Hellenic Agora on and off for quite a while now. My origins are from Hania and Karpathos, two very beautiful places, but I was born in New York, where I have lived most of my life. I feel that I can also come in with a perspective that is both Greek and American and evaluate the pros and cons of both countries and ways of life.

Mitasis - Your complaints about the corruption and the "fakelakia" are very valid, and indeed it is wrong in a public health system for doctors to be asking for these bribes. However, again, the Greek mentality is that the "grass is greener" elsewhere, while in poor little Elladitsa, these problems exist.

Did you know in Japan, one of the richest and most industrialized countries in the world, doctors there regularly ask for "bribes" as well to treat their patients in their otherwise public health system? This is also true in other rich, industrialized countries as well. Unfortunately, corruption is a human trait that transcends ethnicity and boundaries.

As for the United States, though it ranks 37th in the WHO rankings, it does rank #1 in another very important category: government expenditure per capita on health care. Which is quite ironic, considering that out of all the industrialized countries in the world (including Greece, because, yes, Greece is considered an industrialized country despite the "miseria" that still is pervasive in the society), the US is the only one that does not provide nationalized health care to its citizens.

You want to see bureaucracy and corruption on a truly massive scale? Forget the fakelakia. Look no further than Medicare and Medicaid in the United States. The system is so bloated, so inefficient, and so rife with cheating (on the part of both doctors and patients and especially insurance companies) that it drives the cost up considerably. The end result is that American citizens pay a larger percentage of their tax money to fund a health system that does not even provide medical coverage to tens of millions of people. The high costs are largely due to the many layers of bureaucracy and paperwork in the system, as well as cheating. For instance, a patient goes to a doctor, has insurance, and there's three treatments available for his or her ailment. The doctor is going to choose the most expensive option, as they will receive more money from insurance that way, even though the cheapest option might be just as effective. Costs are also driven up as there's no accountability...doctors can charge patients whatever they want, and the cost of prescription drugs, even for minor ailments, is VERY expensive. One of my family members takes a medicine for her ulcer, and a bottle with less than a months' dosage costs hundreds of dollars. Even with insurance, there would still be a deductible, meaning that the medicine would still cost substantially more than it does in countries like Canada, or Greece.

True, if you have a lot of money, the best hospitals and medical facilities in the USA can provide you truly world-class service. But they are not accessible to a very large portion of the citizenry. That is why there is an increasing amount of Americans who travel abroad to third-world countries like India, Thailand, etc. each year to receive medical treatment at a fraction of the cost they receive it in the US. Major American publications such as the NY Times and Newsweek have recently done reports on this topic. It says a lot that the wealthiest nation in the world has its citizens traveling to Thailand for heart surgery and other really important treatments that they cannot afford in the United States, either because the costs of private insurance are too expensive and they are without coverage (and can't afford the rates hospitals charge as a result), or pay a lot for insurance but due to technicalities, greed and penny pinching on the part of the insurance companies (who in some cases would rather let you die than pay for medical service you need, because it's cheaper and more profitable for them and their shareholders), are being denied treatment they are entitled to.

That does not mean that the system in Greece cannot be improved and that people are not entitled to demand better service. They absolutely should demand the best. But crying about some problems while painting a picture that these are problems that only exist in Greece is wrong. The grass is not greener on the other side of the fence, trust me on that.

Here is a picture of the new hospital in Hania, it was completed only a few years ago:

http://www.chaniahospital.gr/photos/aero-b.jpg

Welco Neo11 to the forum. I have to say that I agree with everything you say but one thing.

However, again, the Greek mentality is that the "grass is greener" elsewhere, while in poor little Elladitsa, these problems exist.

Greece is no longer Elladitsa, little or poor. It's a medium sized economy growing really fast to become someday a member of the club of the rich nations, and believe me, I see in our generation the gift to make that happen.

And I'll quote the words of a wise Greek-American philosopher

Greece isn't a poor rural country anymore
skyduster

:)

You misunderstood me...my "elladitsa" remark was very much tongue-in-cheek and intended to reflect the mentality that still exists among some people. I clarified my own feelings in the next paragraph:

"including Greece, because, yes, Greece is considered an industrialized country despite the "miseria" that still is pervasive in the society.)"

Thanks for the comments...looking forward to getting to know everyone here.

Great that there are new hospitals. Less great is their architecture - especially the one in Kalamata. Were architects even involved at any stage, one has to wonder.

Greece still hasn't learnt the value of architecture, whether in public buildings or otherwise. Whereas Spain has. Spain totally gets it.

Great that there are new hospitals. Less great is their architecture - especially the one in Kalamata. Were architects even involved at any stage, one has to wonder.

Greece still hasn't learnt the value of architecture, whether in public buildings or otherwise. Whereas Spain has. Spain totally gets it.

Agreed...especially with the Spain statement! :nuts:
They are crazy with their buildings.

The WHO is hardly an unbiased source for rating world health care. They're motivation is to encourage more national health care systems, not less.

IMO health care in the US is # 1 in Quality. It is NOT the most affordable, that's true. But it's the best in the world as far as the quality of the facilities, training and medicines. No question.

I compare our health care in the US to what's available just north of our border in Canada. The Canadian national health care system provides less and less coverage every year, because it's going broke. They do the minor things ok, but if Canadians need specialist treatment they usually come to the US.

We have more CAT scan units in my city of Detroit than they have in ALL of Canada. More MRI's as well. And far more specialist physicians. Canadian physicians would give their right arms to move south to the US and make FAR more money, and many do move to the US and practice medicine there.

The bottom line is in the USA it all depends on how much income you make. If you can afford a good private health care insurance-like I can-you get the very best treatment. If you can't affort the best insurance, you have to settle for less effective health care. Health care in most European nations is national and everyone gets the same coverage. But the quality of top-end service is not as good. I've experienced medical care in many european nations, so I know what I'm talking about.

As for Greece, I'm relieved they rate highly compared to other European nations. It still doesn't make me support national health care, though. For western nations, where the populations are generally aging, the quality of national health care is going to go down while the costs are going to rise.

@ Sodnal

What good is the best hospital in the world if I can't get in?

The WHO is hardly an unbiased source for rating world health care. They're motivation is to encourage more national health care systems, not less.

Oh come on, Sodnal. That's very rash to claim that the WHO has a political agenda.


IMO health care in the US is # 1 in Quality. It is NOT the most affordable, that's true. But it's the best in the world as far as the quality of the facilities, training and medicines. No question.

How is it the #1 in quality when people are denied various tests and treatments -and downright lied to by doctors who received bonuses- to save insurance companies money, while their CEOs are raking in record profits? Or when doctors prescribe you incredibly expensive medicine brands (most of whose costs go into marketing and advertising isntead of research and development), so that they can get their advertising bonuses from pharmaceutical industries, rather than prescribe the generic brand (which is mde by the same manufacturer)? Or when you're asked to fork out money -thousands of dollars- for an ambulance service after an emergency? Or when insurance companies dig up dirt on you, and find whatever reason to label your health condition a "pre-existing condition" which then relieves them from payment for expensive health services, placing the exorbitant burden on the patient? Or when people go in debt just to pay their deductibles. Or when your new/changed coverage doesn't allow you to keep your family doctor, you must choose from a selected list of doctors provided by your HMO, none of which might live near you (what if you're poor, or elderly, and can't travel far?) Or, say, you're a young healthy person who couldn't afford the more expensive comprehensive insurance coverage, you get minimal emergency-only insurance thinking you've saved money, and then you're hit with with an illness or permanent condition that's not covered? What about these scenarios, Sodnal?

You're painting an extremely rosy picture of a system that's in shambles, Sodnal. And you're in complete denial. Just wait until you get seriously ill. Capitalism doesn't solve everything.


We have more CAT scan units in my city of Detroit than they have in ALL of Canada. More MRI's as well.

And yet Americans might be denied MRIs because it costs the insurance companies too much money.


I compare our health care in the US to what's available just north of our border in Canada. The Canadian national health care system provides less and less coverage every year, because it's going broke. They do the minor things ok, but if Canadians need specialist treatment they usually come to the US.

And Americans need to buy their medicine from Canada -or as far away as India and New Zealand- because it's expensive here in the US. Others go to Canada for specialist treatment not available to them in the US with their coverage. My mom lives in Greece 6 months of the year, where she stocks up on thyroid medicine, because it costs 10x more here in the States.

There are more people without coverage in the United States, than the entire Canadian population, and that doesn't count Americans with coverage who are denied claims for various health tests and illnesses.


Canadian physicians would give their right arms to move south to the US and make FAR more money, and many do move to the US and practice medicine there.

Of course. I, too would be attracted to a corrupt system that would pay me 10 times more than what I currently make, despite the lower quality of care I'll be giving my patients. The reality is that Canadian doctors already make an excellent living. I only blame the American system for pulling a brain drain out of Canada (not the Canadian system)....fortunately, however, the problem is not widespread as you suggest.


The bottom line is in the USA it all depends on how much income you make.

And this system should be praised?


If you can afford a good private health care insurance-like I can-you get the very best treatment. If you can't affort the best insurance, you have to settle for less effective health care.

And if you're having a very tough year career-wise and financially -like I did last year, because I'm mostly self-employed- you're pretty much fucked.


Health care in most European nations is national and everyone gets the same coverage. But the quality of top-end service is not as good. I've experienced medical care in many european nations, so I know what I'm talking about.

So, Europeans should adopt a two- or three-tier system, like the US?

Do you honestly think privatization improves health care service? I'm not saying that the US doesn't have great hospitals...many of the world's best are right here. But that's not always the case. Were you living in a cave when the Walter Reed medical crisis broke out? These are INJURED IRAQ VETERANS who -for quite some time- were living with rats and mold, after the hospital's services were privatized by the Bush administration. We're talking private health care here; many if the facility's doctors and nurses left the hospital after privatization because of working conditions.


As for Greece, I'm relieved they rate highly compared to other European nations. It still doesn't make me support national health care, though. For western nations, where the populations are generally aging, the quality of national health care is going to go down while the costs are going to rise.

There are other ways to solve this, Sodnal. You need to think outside of the American bubble and consider options other than what you hear on CNN. You don't need to completely privatize health care. You can encourage family growth, decrease expenditure excesses, give the private sector a limited role in health care, create more oversight over the industry....there are many options to explore here.

The Europeans/Canadians/Japanese do not -and should not- have to adopt the deeply flawed American system. Nor does the US have to adopt a completely public system. But it does need serious reform and more public involvement, be it at the national(federal) level or the state (local) level.

Don't believe the one-sided arguments you hear on CNN, ABC, CBS, and NBC which receieve $1.5 BILLION in annual revenue from pharmaceutical advertisements, and interview celebrities on television without telling their viewers that these celebrities are paid spokespersons for various pharmaceutical companies. I worked in market research for some time, and worked on the accounts for some big-name pharmaceutical companies...you wouldn't believe all the extensive marketing studies and unecessary marketing man-hours that goes behind the cost of a simple medicine that's cheap to produce. Don't believe the polticians who receive campaign funds from the health insurance industry to refrain from promoting universal health care and introduce legislation that in fact benefits the industry (but masked as benefitting the patients). Don't believe the congressmen who are guaranteed lucrative post-political careers in the health insurance and pharmaceutical industry lobbies. Don't believe their lies and propaganda, because THEY are the ones who benefit most from the current system, and they will do anything to keep the status quo.

There's a lot of corruption and χάλια behind the glossy American βιτρίνα. Not just in health care.

Thank you, skyduster. No one is saying that the quality of health care that one can *potentially* receive in the U.S. isn't top-notch. It absolutely is. But that top-notch service is only available to a select few.

When you think about it, yes, systems like Canada's or the UK's or Greece's or Japan's are flawed too...long waits for certain kinds of procedures, corruption like the infamous "fakelakia," and so on, but how is that any different from someone in the USA who is denied treatment because their insurance doesn't cover it or refuses to pay? Or because they cannot even afford the excessive costs of insurance? Also, keep in mind, if you are wealthy and live in Canada or Greece or the UK, there's nothing really stopping you from paying for your own private care. It's just that for everyone else, there is a certain standard of quality, affordable care that's still available.

And that's without even discussing the obscene costs of prescription drugs in the United States, and the mess that is Medicare and Medicaid. I truly feel bad for senior citizens who have to navigate the system with no one to help them. There's literally thousands of different insurance "packages" that are available to them that are almost impossible for anyone to navigate through. As for prescription drugs, suffice it to say that I have a relative who has a non-threatening illness...a stomach ulcer. She pays upwards of $300 a month for prescription medication for an ailment that is very common. It's truly obscene. Pharmaceutical companies claim that the money is going to research and development, but large percentages of that go to needless marketing, as well as fat, "generous" contributions to their patrons in both parties in government.

Again, it's not a black and white issue. No one is saying that the Greek system is perfect, and I fully believe that the best way to continue to elevate standards is for people to speak up and continuously demand the best. But again, the system in the US, besides not being entirely private (the government expenditures on programs like Medicaid are through the roof), has failed a large portion of its population. That is unacceptable for a country with the wealth, resources, technology and know-how like the US. Then again, the government certainly seems to have no trouble finding hundreds of billions of dollars to fund their operations in Iraq, while spin doctors go in the media and speak empty words about "finding a solution" to the "health care crisis," or "finding a solution" to the social security system which has been practically bankrupted. Amazing that it wasn't so difficult to find "solutions" for anything having to do with military operations.

The problems with the health care system in the US are mainly due to the middle class - not the government. Of course, when you're talking about a "democracy" (which the US is not, but it almost is), people and government are one in the same - people choose their government.

I took an entire class on the US medical system, and the bottom line was that its private nature is unlikely to change due to the middle class vote. This type of system is ideal for the middle class, as they are the ones who have enough money and job security to have good insurance. Americans don't like the idea of paying for other citizens. If a national health system were to go into effect, the middle class would be forced to pay extra for poorer citizens - something that they are not willing to do.

Many politicians in government have tried to push through national healthcare/insurance in the past, but have been defeated every time due to strong opposition from the middle class.

It is the American mentality of capitalism and individuality that stands in the way of a truly humane and caring health care system.

Oh come on, Sodnal. That's very rash to claim that the WHO has a political agenda.

:ohno: :lol:

I hate to be too direct, but you folks who believe the US health care system "is in shambles" haven't got a clue. You are totally clueless, in fact. Have you ever BEEN to the USA, or you get your "facts" only from leftist European newspapers and television news media.

To listen to some of you folks are dying in the streets of America because our health care system is in iminent collapse. Unbelievable ignorance, what can you say?

I HAVE been in Europe, and the far east, and Latin America. There is NO question the US medical care is the best and I've seen-and used-just about all of them.

It's true there are a lot of folks who don't have health insurance because they can't afford it. But who's fault is that, in most cases? The plans are expensive, but if you make them a priority you can afford some coverage.

You ask any 100 Americans if they want to bring in a European national health care system and 75 of them will say "No!". I guess the users are happy with the service they're getting. At least the ones who work hard enough to pay for health care coverage.

This type of system is ideal for the middle class, as they are the ones who have enough money and job security to have good insurance. Americans don't like the idea of paying for other citizens.

That's kind of a simplistic statement, but there is an element of truth in it. Americans are practical people. They don't mind paying for a certain segment of the population who is incapable of paying for themselves, AS LONG AS THAT SEGMENT IS NOT TOO BIG.

National Health Care coverage or no National health care coverage is and should be a business based decision. If you're society is getting older, as most western nations are, then it mandates that health care coverage will get more and more expensive. And if you don't pay greater taxes to support it, the quality of care will go down.

I work a well paid, professional job. I have great health care coverage (we have several plans, I pay for the best). Why the hell should I pay for coverage for some deadbeat who screwed around in school, didn't work hard, isn't upwardly mobile and possibly abuses his health by smoking, drinking excessively or taking drugs? I'm sorry, but I'm not that altruistic. Let those kind of folks move to europe where the people, apparently, are more generous. Hey, my hats off to them! :lol:

It is the American mentality of capitalism and individuality that stands in the way of a truly humane and caring health care system.


And it's the European mentality to never say "No" to any new social plan that's bankrupting your working people with unbelievably high taxes. If you want to call giving away 50-60% of your income in taxes for social programs like National Provided Health Care "humane" than you're quite different than most Americans. You're a .... as well, but that's another matter.

It's only going to get worse, as the populations age. That's why so many higher income Europeans are moving away. We have quite a few working in Detroit, you might be suprised.

You're painting an extremely rosy picture of a system that's in shambles, Sodnal. And you're in complete denial. Just wait until you get seriously ill. Capitalism doesn't solve everything.


You ever BEEN to the USA, Skyduster, or you get all your concepts out of comic books? Your images of health care in the US or so ludicrous I can't even imagine where to begin.

Denied services and tests? Go to Canada, where you can't get a CAT scan no matter WHO you are! Why? Because they have only a few units in the whole of Canada and they're completely tied up. They all come to the US to get higher tech procedures and treatments because they're unavailable in Canada. The Canadian national health care service can't afford more equipment and the people won't accept higher taxes anymore.

National health care services are fine for cuts and scrapes. They provide good service for putting on bandages and giving shots to infants. They fail miserably providing higher tech medical service. No question.:ohno:

And if you're having a very tough year career-wise and financially -like I did last year, because I'm mostly self-employed- you're pretty much fxxxxd.


So, why don't you get off your azz and find a second job? Why the hell should I, or any other tax payer, pay for YOUR health care you ...? I'm not asking YOU to pay for MINE.

It's a question of values, folks. Some people expect others to carry their weight. I never did, I worked for everything I have.

I have no problem paying for our senior citizens, or those who are mentally challenged and can't carry their own weight. But I'll be damned if I'll pay my taxes to pay for health care for same lazy, do-nothing who feels the world owes him a living.

You disgust me with your appalling deadbeatness, Skyduster. I have no tolerance for whiners and freeloaders. I'd belabor you some more, but I have to get up at 5:00 am tomorrow here in Tokyo and put in a 16 hour day. :bash:

More? I think 6 consecutive posts is enough!

So, why don't you get off your azz and find a second job? Why the hell should I, or any other tax payer, pay for YOUR health care you ...? I'm not asking YOU to pay for MINE.

...

I have no problem paying for our senior citizens, or those who are mentally challenged and can't carry their own weight. But I'll be damned if I'll pay my taxes to pay for health care for same lazy, do-nothing who feels the world owes him a living.


National Health Care doesn't work like that. It is quite evident that you do not understand this type of system. Able citizens who do not attempt to work for a specified amount of time (and, thus, do not pay taxes) do not receive national health insurance. They must pay for their services.

The difference is that anyone who attempts to work (and, thus, pays taxes) will be covered by national health insurance - regardless of where he/she works or how much money he/she makes. In the US, the uninsured are usually people who DO work, making just enough money to fail to qualify for federal aid (not poor enough) and just enough to get by without paying for health insurance (not rich enough). We're talking about people who DO get off their azz, as you say - not some drunk bum too lazy to work. They've done nothing wrong, and yet their amazing health care system has failed them.

That's kind of a simplistic statement, but there is an element of truth in it. Americans are practical people. They don't mind paying for a certain segment of the population who is incapable of paying for themselves, AS LONG AS THAT SEGMENT IS NOT TOO BIG.

National Health Care coverage or no National health care coverage is and should be a business based decision. If you're society is getting older, as most western nations are, then it mandates that health care coverage will get more and more expensive. And if you don't pay greater taxes to support it, the quality of care will go down.

I work a well paid, professional job. I have great health care coverage (we have several plans, I pay for the best). Why the hell should I pay for coverage for some deadbeat who screwed around in school, didn't work hard, isn't upwardly mobile and possibly abuses his health by smoking, drinking excessively or taking drugs? I'm sorry, but I'm not that altruistic. Let those kind of folks move to europe where the people, apparently, are more generous. Hey, my hats off to them! :lol:




I have no problem paying for our senior citizens, or those who are mentally challenged and can't carry their own weight. But I'll be damned if I'll pay my taxes to pay for health care for same lazy, do-nothing who feels the world owes him a living.

You disgust me with your appalling deadbeatness, Skyduster. I have no tolerance for whiners and freeloaders. I'd belabor you some more, but I have to get up at 5:00 am tomorrow here in Tokyo and put in a 16 hour day. :bash:


So much for being simplistic Sodnal.

This Darwinian attitude presented here, was a bit exaggerated I think, without overlooking the fact that most of the things said here apply to Greece to a high degree. I strongly believe that our country needs to address some issues soon or else we will be marginalized with regards to the rest of Europe. Greece is an un-motivating place and not business-friendly enough to allow for self-employment, let alone success. Too much talk, too many laws, too many socially maladjusted individuals, as well as what we call in Greek "korks" (φελλοί), i.e. agressive individuals that are not qualified and lie about their actual capacities at work trying to acsend up the social ladder with lies.

As for the Greek health system it can become better. I believe that today it is in an average shape, we have good doctors but limited facilities. Changes should take place in the whole insurance system and personally, I don't understand why an individual should pay the IKA instead of another private health system if s/he so wishes...

I believe that today it is in an average shape, we have good doctors but limited facilities.

I completely disagree gm....
Our doctors might have knowledge and they might be qualified, but they aren't good doctors....When they go on strike (and they do it often) they shut down the whole medical system of the country leaving everyone without healthcare...Then, when they "work", half of them are God knows where, sitting in their offices in the hospital, out for a "work to be done" and they let the students or the young doctors what they should...And then, it's the greed matter...Our doctors must be the greediest worldwide...They refuse to give you a logical explanation, a correct diagnosis, unless you go to their personal offices (where you pay) or unless you give an amount of money (fakelakia) so that they can actually do their job correctly...I'm not making this up...I have seen this totally messed up situation personally lots of times...And then, I have friends in the medical school and they can see it themselves, and believe me, what I hear from them isn't flattering about our doctors...There are good doctors but they are very few...
As for the facilities, many new hospitals and clinics have been built in the last 5 to 10 years and most of them are fully equipped...But there isn't enough stuff...And you know why? Because doctors don't want to go to Rhodes, Hania, Trikala, Karditsa , let alone the small islands...They all prefer to stay in Athens and the major cities...Shame on them....!!! These people have no respect for human lives and they certainly don't care to offer anything to their fellow citizens...just open a newspaper or look in the net, how many vacant doctor jobs there are in the whole country...It makes me sick when doctors claim that there aren't enough jobs for them.....There are if you go to Kalymnos where you are needed you morron!!!

Hey, I'm getting ready to head out the door to catch my train. But, I wanted to apologize-to some extent-for how strong I came on last night. It was the end of a lonnnnnnnng day.

Nevertheless, some of you have illustrated the faults of the national health care systems and I agree. Actually, there is no "perfect" coverage system. But there must be some balance where we cover those who need to be covered and can not, by whatever limitations. But don't cover those with taxpayer money who are perfectly capable of providing their own health care coverage.

I just don't like this mindset that medical health care is an entitlement. Why should it be? Drugs cost companies money to produce, doctors cost money to educate-and they pay for it themselves. Why should you receive treatment for free? What's next, food? Water? Electricity? Fuels?

Once you open the doors of the public treasury, it's pretty difficult to close them again. :ohno:

Sodnal, something tells me that you never had to WORK for a living. Just had everything handed to you on a silver platter.

You ever BEEN to the USA, Skyduster, or you get all your concepts out of comic books? Your images of health care in the US or so ludicrous I can't even imagine where to begin.



Actually, Sodnal, it's almost as if you have never been to the USA. It's as if you are somewhere, far, far away from the USA, and everything you know about the US comes from what someoen is telling you...no life experience.

I LIVE in the USA, Sodnal. Μόνιμα. Maybe you have good health benefits from your company and you've been lucky enough that you haven't gotten ill yet. But millions of Americans -who work just like you- don't get the top notch treatment you do. Maybe you get PPO, but most Americans who work "good" boring office jobs get HMO from their employers. I've worked corporate, I know how it is. HMO = ... TREATMENT. It's been criticized in the American media, left and right...perhaps you've been living in a cave?

What about those of us who are self-employed and/or work 2 jobs? Do you think I walk into an office high-rise everyday, with paid benefits, a company car, paid training seminars, and all that fun corporate ...? (Or perhaps you think I'm on welfare, sitting at home all day, and whining about the system.) I work multiple jobs and gigs. I am self-employed part time (personal trainer), and I also do additional part-time work: I work on market research projects, and I occasionally pick up some manual labour gigs (warehouse, moving furniture, you name it). I am a college graduate, yes, and my long-term goal is to go to grad school and somehow get involved in international relations or law. I currently have to BUY my insurance, no one is handing it to me. I had a very tough year financially last year, so I couldn't afford insurance. I now have insurance, and I recently had to take an important expensive test (trying to be anonymous here) and I am dealing with exactly the same things brought up in Sicko.

Calling people like myself as "whiners and freeloaders" just because we are exposing you to something that you don't want to admit and/or are sheltered from, proves your distorted point of view on American life. Δεν τα ξέρεις όλα. And don't ever call me a freeloader again. The vast majority of Americans whow are complaining about the system are tax-paying working people, not people on welfare.

Honestly, Sodnal, sometimes your theories are a little too naive and ideological, and in no way pragmatic. No one's saying life in the US is .... It's among the best countries in the world. But there are deep problems that need to be resolved. Things that you are in denial about. You epitomize those ignorant flag-waiving "hear no evil, see no evil" types. Because of people like you who refuse self-criticism, the United States -once the global leader in social and technological ingenuity- has stopped trying to improve itself. Countries in western Europe and East Asia are catching up and passing up...while the American way of life becomes outdated in the 21st century.

The facts are in:

USA ranks #37 in health care. And the ranking fits.

So, why don't you get off your azz and find a second job? Why the hell should I, or any other tax payer, pay for YOUR health care you lazy slob? I'm not asking YOU to pay for MINE.

It's a question of values, folks. Some people expect others to carry their weight. I never did, I worked for everything I have.

I have no problem paying for our senior citizens, or those who are mentally challenged and can't carry their own weight. But I'll be damned if I'll pay my taxes to pay for health care for same lazy, do-nothing who feels the world owes him a living.

You disgust me with your appalling deadbeatness, Skyduster. I have no tolerance for whiners and freeloaders. I'd belabor you some more, but I have to get up at 5:00 am tomorrow here in Tokyo and put in a 16 hour day. :bash:

LISTEN UP YOU ... ....

I WAS A TOP STAIGHT A STUDENT ALL MY ... LIFE. I DIDNT CARE FOR THE REGULAR HIGH SCHOOL SOCIAL LIFE, NEVER WENT TO A SINGLE PARTY. I WAS TRILINGUAL AT 10 (EN, FR, GR). I WAS A BOOKWORM, AND AT AGE 14 WAS ABLE TO RECITE THE CAPITALS AND POPULATION FIGURE FOR EVERY COUNTRY IN EUROPE. BY 16 I WAS RESEARCHING COLD-WAR ERA AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY -OUT OF MY OWN CURIOSITY- AND AT 17 I WAS ABLE TO READ AND UNDERSTAND BOOKS AND ARTICLES ON RUSSIAN FOREIGN POLICY. IN COLLEGE, I WAS ENTERED INTO THE HONORS PROGRAM. I GOT AN A AND A- IN CALC AND CALC II.

UNEMPLOYMENT IN ILLINOIS IS ABOVE THE NATIONAL AVERAGE. I CANNOT FIND A FULL-TIME JOB THAT PAYS WELL, ONE THAT DOES NOT INVOLVE SALES AND MARKETING, A SKILL I DO NOT HAVE. I AM CURRENTLY CONSIDERING MOVING TO ANOTHER STATE, OR TO FRANCE (WHERE I HAVE LIVED BEFORE).

I DID THE USUAL GOOD GREEK-AMERICAN BOY ROUTE: WENT TO WELL-KNOWN COLLEGE ON PARTIAL SCHOLARSHIP THEN GOT AN OFFICE JOB. WENT TO COLLEGE, MAJORED IN ADVERTISING AND PR, DID A NON-PAYING INTERNSHIP. GOT A TEMPORARY PART TIME JOB IN MARKET RESEARCH AFTER COLLEGE, SENT RESUMES AND COVER LETTERS TO EVERY ... PUBLIC RELATIONS AND ADVERTISING FIRM IN THE COUNTRY, MOST OF WHICH ARE BASED IN CHICAGO. OUT OF FIVE MILLION ONLY ONE CALLED ME FOR AN INTERVIEW WHICH WAS GOING TO BE A LOW-PAID INTERNSHIP FOLLOWED BY POSSIBLE EMPLOYMENT, BUT APPARENTLY I DIDNT HAVE THE EXPERIENCE FOR AN INTERNSHIP. FINALLY SOMEONE CALLS ME, I LANDED A JOB IN MARKET RESEARCH WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RESEARCH METHODOLOGY, PR, MEDIA, OR CLIENT RELATIONS, THINGS THAT I STUDIED. THEY TRAINED ME TO SIT IN A CUBICLE ALL DAY AND DO COMPUTER PROGRAMMING THAT'S SPECIFIC TO THE MARKET RESEARCH AND ADVERTISING INDUSTRIES (QUANTUM AND SPSS). THE PAY WAS EXTREMELY LOW $28000 DID NOT COVER MY LIVING EXPENSESES AND GAVE ME .. HMO COVERAGE. I THEN HAD TO MAKE A DIFFICULT CAREER DECISION WITH WHAT I KNEW AT THE TIME: EITHER TRY HARD TO TRANSFER TO A DIFFERENT DEPARTMENT AND WAIT A LONG TIME FOR AN AVAILABLE SLOT, OR CONSIDER CAREER CHANGE. I DECIDED TO TAKE A RISK. I WAS OFFERED A JOB IN THE FITNESS INDUSTRY BY A GUY I RAN INTO AT THE GYM WHO CONVINCED ME TO DO CAREER CHANGE. I WAS LUCKY AS THIS IS AN EXTREMELY DIFFICULT FIELD TO GET INTO. I TRAINED FOR A YEAR TO BE A TRAINER, MADE VERY LITTLE MONEY DURING THE PROCESS, PAID FOR MY CERITIFICATION PROGRAMS WHICH ARE EXPENSIVE, AND DID ADDITIONAL JOBS WORKING IN WAREHOUSES, MOVING FURNTITURE, CANVASSING FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, EVEN MODELING, WHATEVER I CAN GET MY HANDS ON, IN ADDITION TO RUNNING GROUP FITNESS CLASSES FOR A FEW DOLLARS A WEEK. I AM STILL WORKING TOWARDS A BETTER PT CERTIFICAION (NASM), WHERE I WILL INVEST MY TAX RETURN, AND I SUPPLEMENT MY INCOME WITH MARKET RESEARCH GIGS AND OCCASIONAL MANUAL LABOUR GIGS. I AM ALSO CURRENTLY APPLYING FOR A FULL-TIME INTL TRAVEL GUIDE POSITION THAT REQUIRES FRENCH PROFICIENCY. I HOPE TO MAKE ENOUGH TO HAVE A STABLE INCOME AND THEN I CAN THINK ABOUT RESEARCHING GRAD SCHOOLS (I AM LOOKING AT JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY) AND VOLUNTEER PROGRAMS TO EVENTUALLY GET INTO A FIELD I WILL TRULY ENJOY...WORKING FOR A THINK TANK, NGO, OR INTERGOVERNMENTAL AGENCY TO TELL OFF ... LIKE YOU.

DONT EVER CALL ME LAZY, DUMB, STUPID, UNHEALTHY, DEADBEAT, DRUGGIE, OR FREELOADING AGAIN, YOU ... ... ....

It was all ζάχαρη και μέλι with you when I completely agreed with you that the labour market in Greece needs serious reform and that people seek easy public-sector office jobs where they dno't work hard and do nothing. But as soon as I criticize an aspect of the American socioeconomic system you start throwing labels at me without knowing ANYTHING about me.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE SYSTEM ARE TAX-PAYING HARD-WORKING PEOPLE. NOT CRACKHEADS ON WELFARE.

WE DON'T ALL HAVE THINGS HANDED TO US IN A SILVER PLATTER, LIKE YOU DO.

AND MAYBE WHEN WE STOP MISSPENDING $BILLIONS$ ON COMPLETELY UNECESSARY WARS FROM IRAQ TO PANAMA, HAITI, GRENADA, AND VIETNAM, MAYBE THEN WE'LL COME UP WITH THE MONEY TO GIVE ALL AMERICANS COMPREHENSIVE HEALTH CARE. OR MAYBE WE CAN ASK AETNA/BLUE CROSS CEOS TO SHARE SOME OF THE $BILLIONS$ THEY MAKE IN PROFITS WITH THEIR DYING CLIENTS.

DONT TELL ME ABOUT YOUR 16-HOUR DAYS IN TOKYO. OH YOU POOR BOY. ANYBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD TAKE YOUR JOB IF IT WAS OFFERED TO THEM. You are completely out of touch with reality.

Try being a personal trainer by day, waking up at the ... buttcrack of dawn, then after meeting with client(s) -some of whom blow you off- squeezing in a work out (because if you fall out of shape, you fall out of work), then shower and eat, run to the next job -and try to be on time- be it working in some warehouse, or another cubicle/programming market research job for 7 hours (just short of full time so that they won't have to give me benefits), then home at 10PM burned out, but you have to dedicate time online looking for a weekend gig or -hopefully- maybe be able to find a fulltime job on the internet while you have clothes in the washing machine and chicken on the grill, then get in an hour or two of reading, first fitness magazines for work, then international news so I don't fall out of step with my career goals, then to bed, lucky IF I get 7 hours of sleep....and then I'm scared shitless if I have a pain in my left nut, because if it's something serious how the .. am I going to pay for it (let alone will I even be able to take Thursday off for a doctor's appt?)....can you imagine someone doing this with 3 kids to feed? And you're telling ME about your 16 hour day in Tokyo? ... YOU dude. Seriously. GO ... YOURSELF.

Why the hell should I pay for coverage for some deadbeat who screwed around in school, didn't work hard, isn't upwardly mobile and possibly abuses his health by smoking, drinking excessively or taking drugs? I'm sorry, but I'm not that altruistic. Let those kind of folks move to europe where the people, apparently, are more generous. Hey, my hats off to them! :lol:

People that are "deadbeats" in school and don't want to advance to university...NOT the kind of people you'd be talking to in an ARCHITECTURE AND URBAN PLANNING FORUM. And university isn't for everyone; some people are better at manual jobs. Society also needs non-university skilled workers like carpenters, tailors, police officers, electricians, cooks, mechanics, and so on and so forth.

Get off your ... high horse, ..., and get down to earth with the rest of us.

And understand that while the Canadian system does have its problems, a lot of what CNN tells you is LIES. CNN has a vested interest in keeping the status quo. As I already mentioned before (which you decided to ignore), CNN/ABC/FOX/CBS/NBC received $1.5 billion annually in pharmaceutical advertising, and American politicians and congressmen received millions of dollars in campaign funds from the health insurance and pharmaceutical lobbies.

For once, Sodnal, just ... and LISTEN to other people.

And when you respond to this post, don't just pick and choose convenient excerpts ignoring my supporting points/evidence of why the system is in shambles....just as you did HERE:


You're painting an extremely rosy picture of a system that's in shambles, Sodnal. And you're in complete denial. Just wait until you get seriously ill. Capitalism doesn't solve everything.


That's kind of a simplistic statement, but there is an element of truth in it. Americans are practical people. They don't mind paying for a certain segment of the population who is incapable of paying for themselves, AS LONG AS THAT SEGMENT IS NOT TOO BIG.

Of course it's a simplistic statement when you TRUNCATE it like that. You completely ignored everything I brought up to support that "simplistic" statement:


How is it the #1 in quality when people are denied various tests and treatments -and downright lied to by doctors who received bonuses- to save insurance companies money, while their CEOs are raking in record profits? Or when doctors prescribe you incredibly expensive medicine brands (most of whose costs go into marketing and advertising isntead of research and development), so that they can get their advertising bonuses from pharmaceutical industries, rather than prescribe the generic brand (which is mde by the same manufacturer)? Or when you're asked to fork out money -thousands of dollars- for an ambulance service after an emergency? Or when insurance companies dig up dirt on you, and find whatever reason to label your health condition a "pre-existing condition" which then relieves them from payment for expensive health services, placing the exorbitant burden on the patient? Or when people go in debt just to pay their deductibles. Or when your new/changed coverage doesn't allow you to keep your family doctor, you must choose from a selected list of doctors provided by your HMO, none of which might live near you (what if you're poor, or elderly, and can't travel far?) Or, say, you're a young healthy person who couldn't afford the more expensive comprehensive insurance coverage, you get minimal emergency-only insurance thinking you've saved money, and then you're hit with with an illness or permanent condition that's not covered? What about these scenarios, Sodnal?

You're painting an extremely rosy picture of a system that's in shambles, Sodnal. And you're in complete denial. Just wait until you get seriously ill. Capitalism doesn't solve everything.


SO CUT YOUR ... OUT SODNAL.

... THIS ..., DUDE. YOU REALLY TICKED ME OFF, ... ....

Actually, Sodnal, it's almost as if you have never been to the USA. It's as if you are somewhere, far, far away from the USA, and everything you know about the US comes from what someoen is telling you...no life experience.

I LIVE in the USA, Sodnal. Μόνιμα. Maybe you have good health benefits from your company and you've been lucky enough that you haven't gotten ill yet. But millions of Americans -who work just like you- don't get the top notch treatment you do. Maybe you get PPO, but most Americans who work "good" boring office jobs get HMO from their employers. I've worked corporate, I know how it is. HMO = SHIT TREATMENT. It's been criticized in the American media, left and right...perhaps you've been living in a cave?

What about those of us who are self-employed and/or work 2 jobs? Do you think I walk into an office high-rise everyday, with paid benefits, a company car, paid training seminars, and all that fun corporate shit? (Or perhaps you think I'm on welfare, sitting at home all day, and whining about the system.) I work multiple jobs and gigs. I am self-employed part time (personal trainer), and I also do additional part-time work: I work on market research projects, and I occasionally pick up some manual labour gigs (warehouse, moving furniture, you name it). I am a college graduate, yes, and my long-term goal is to go to grad school and somehow get involved in international relations or law. I currently have to BUY my insurance, no one is handing it to me. I had a very tough year financially last year, so I couldn't afford insurance. I now have insurance, and I recently had to take an important expensive test (trying to be anonymous here) and I am dealing with exactly the same things brought up in Sicko.

Calling people like myself as "whiners and freeloaders" just because we are exposing you to something that you don't want to admit and/or are sheltered from, proves your distorted point of view on American life. Δεν τα ξέρεις όλα. And don't ever call me a freeloader again. The vast majority of Americans whow are complaining about the system are tax-paying working people, not people on welfare.

Honestly, Sodnal, sometimes your theories are a little too naive and ideological, and in no way pragmatic. No one's saying life in the US is shitty. It's among the best countries in the world. But there are deep problems that need to be resolved. Things that you are in denial about. You epitomize those ignorant flag-waiving "hear no evil, see no evil" types. Because of people like you he refuse self-criticism, the United States -once the global leader in social and technological ingenuity- has stopped trying to improve itself. Countries in western Europe and East Asia are catching up and passing up...while the American way of life becomes outdated in the 21st century.

The facts are in:

USA ranks #37 in health care. And the ranking fits.

Co-sign. I also live in the United States as well. I was born here and went to school here. I've also lived in Greece as well though, aside from frequent visits to the country, and not just during the fun and sun summer months.

Regarding the middle class, the fact is that the middle class in the US (and many other countries, for that matter) is shrinking. And if anything, the middle class in some ways is more at a disadvantage. They make just enough to not qualify for programs such as Medicare and Medicaid, but in many cases do not make enough to comfortably afford their own private insurance, unless they are lucky enough to work at a job that provides insurance as a benefit...and increasingly, more and more jobs do *not* provide this or have watered down the coverage significantly.

My family here is middle class. My parents are self-employed and we own a house, two cars, etc. We have not ever had medical insurance. It's just too much money, and in economic terms, there's an opportunity cost. For the most part, knock on wood, we've remained healthy. That said, even though my family makes a comfortable income by objective standards, when you take into account a high mortgage, utilities, and the overall very high cost of living in New York, it's not that much money that is left over. So....the opportunity cost here is try to live a little and hope that you don't get ill at some point, or spend the rest of your leftover money on health insurance which does not even cover everything and where you would still have to pay steep deductibles for most procedures and medications, and sit around the house all day and do nothing because there wouldn't be money left over to visit Greece or go out to see a movie and have a meal or buy a book or do anything that makes life worth living.

Obviously, my family is not alone in this: tens of millions are uninsured in such a rich country as the USA. I'd venture to guess that most of the uninsured *are* middle class, because the rich can obviously afford medical care whenever they need it, and there are programs for those who are the poorest. Those in the middle get stuck.

I mentioned medical tourism before. Here's an article from ABC News as well as a Wikipedia entry on the subject:

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/IndustryInfo/story?id=2320839&page=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism

To me, this is the sign of an unhealthy health care system (pun intended), when the citizens of the richest country in the world travel to a poor third world nation for first-world medical care that they cannot afford at home.

As for Greece, again...the system has many, many imperfections. For instance, it's a well known fact that there are not enough nurses! However, the original point of this thread was to point out that for all of Greece's shortcomings, it shares similar problems with many other, "wealthier" countries....see the examples of patients being kept in the hallways of hospitals in Norway and Holland, or "fakelakia" requested by doctors in Japan. At the same time, the thread also went on to point out the good: everyone has some level of coverage, prescription drugs do not cost nearly as much as they do in the United States, and there is an all-around safety net. There is no safety net whatsoever in the USA...it's very Darwinian, as someone else rightly pointed out. And for the point Sodnal made about the inefficiencies in "socialist" medical systems like those in Canada or Greece...yes, there are long waits for many procedures, but what's the difference between a long wait and not being able to get the procedure done at all in the USA because you cannot afford it or insurance is refusing to pay? At least if you have money in a country like Canada or Greece, you can still pay to visit a private hospital. If you don't, you still have *something*. In the USA...that is not the case. Even emergency rooms can turn you away, and if they don't, they certainly can turn around and send you a hefty bill for your procedure. Even the most minor of operations can go over $1,000. A friend of mine was in a non-serious automobile accident and went to the emergency room of a nearby hospital. The hospital wasn't even one she chose, it was where the city's ambulance took her. For a few x-rays, a couple of pills and an examination, the bill was $1,100, and you can't get out of paying either, they take your social security number on the spot and will not shy away from sending a collection agency after you if you do not pay up. Since it was an automobile accident and the other driver was at fault, his insurance will be paying....but obviously, it could very well be the case that you are the one that has to foot that hefty bill for emergency room care.

On the other hand, I had a similarly minor emergency one time when I was in Hania. I made it to the emergency room, waited around a little bit for the lone doctor (it was around 4 in the morning) to get to me after the other patients, but I got my treatment and left...no cost. Another time I had a serious cold that was not going away, so for about the equivalent of $10 (Greece did not yet have the Euro at the time), I saw a doctor and got three prescription medicines which helped clear up my cold in a few days. In the US, a similar visit to a doctor would run at least $75, more if there are any shots or x-rays involved, and each prescription medicine would be at least $25-30 each. That's the high cost of getting sick/injured in the US.

Again, I don't live in a fantasy world and I don't have the mistaken impression that the system in Greece *or* the US is perfect and certainly as I mentioned before, there's many shortcomings in Greece as well. It's right to point out those problems and demand improvement, but it's unfair to say that these are problems exclusive to Greece and to revert to the old attitude of "miseria."

And for the point Sodnal made about the inefficiencies in "socialist" medical systems like those in Canada or Greece...yes, there are long waits for many procedures, but what's the difference between a long wait and not being able to get the procedure done at all in the USA because you cannot afford it or insurance is refusing to pay? At least if you have money in a country like Canada or Greece, you can still pay to visit a private hospital. If you don't, you still have *something*. In the USA...that is not the case. Even emergency rooms can turn you away, and if they don't, they certainly can turn around and send you a hefty bill for your procedure. Even the most minor of operations can go over $1,000...

...and you can't get out of paying either, they take your social security number on the spot and will not shy away from sending a collection agency after you if you do not pay up.

Except people like Sodnal...they never get turned away. The rest of us "lazy freeloaders" who are working hard to get to where HE is....we better not get sick while we're still climbing the ladder. We can only get sick once we're up there. Otherwise we deserve what we get.

It's a lost cause Neo. Sodnal is a spoiled sheltered person who thinks he kows everything, and will never listen to other people's perspectives. The only thing we can do is continue to fight...with our minds, continue to educate ourselves, continue to work hard in our lives to advance ourselves, continue to inform other people, vote, read from a variety of sources, listen to people's perspectives, and continue to strive for change.

Well isn't this just lovely.

Το θέμα θα παραμείνει κλειστώ για μερικές ώρες ( για να επανέλθει σε μια ευπρεπή μορφή ).

Ανοίξαμε και πάλι :D. Λοιπόν, μεγάλα παιδιά είμαστε μην λέμε τα ίδια και τα ίδια. Βρισιές δεν επιτρέπονται, χρόνος για ανελέητα editing των μηνυμάτων δεν υπάρχει, και ανά πάσα στιγμή παραμονεύει το λουκέτο.

Όλοι έχουμε τις απόψεις μας, δεν χρειάζεται να χαλάμε τις καρδιές μας με λεγόμενα τα οποία μπορεί να απευθύνουμε προς τους άλλους αλλά στην πραγματικότητα ο τελικός αποδέκτης είναι ο ίδιος μας ο εαυτός. ( με ότι αυτό και να συνεπάγεται για τον ψυχικό μας κόσμο).

Ευχαριστώ KONSTANTINOUPOLIS που μας προσέχεις. Να 'σαι καλά, ρε φίλε! :)

Να είσαι καλά αδελφέ :)

skyduster, I don't know how to respond to you. We come from two different generations, two different set of values and two different worlds.

I don't think society owes me anything except the opportunity to make my own way. You think society owes folks who come up short-for whatever reason-the difference.

Yeah, I have a PPO and a great one. My company offers a wide variety of plans and I PURCHASE the best one. You'll note that I said "I" purchase it, nobody buys it for me.

I don't know how old you are, but I'll wager you couldn't keep up with me at work on the best day you ever saw. And I couldn't keep up with my grandfather on the best day that I ever saw-but I'll be damned if I won't try and reach his level.

I haven't always had the fine job that I have now. I used to be income challenged, but I always worked my azz off to make up the difference. Including working 2 and sometimes 3 jobs at times. Way it is, deal with it. And don't whine, I can't stand whiners.

You got straignt A's in school? Fine. Apply that work ethic to generating income and you won't be complaining about health care being non-affordable.

I am surprised how a supposedly rich country like the US requires that in order for somebody to have a decent health coverage, s/he must have a top-notch job to afford medical insurance.

What I believe is that the nemesis of the stability of the US social fabric will be the greedy ones that are draining the resources out of one of the best wealth-creating systems in the world to convert it to guns used in long-term useless (and unproductive) military campaigns.

I also believe that this pyramid wealth-created scheme where there the centre was this protestant work ethic and the virtue of patience that in the post-war years helped build America by the motivation of the young to work harder with the promise that they will enjoy more in their middle-aged years will not stand anymore because a) the ones at the top are merging their fortunes, become greedy and do not want to share their accumulated wealth with the ones at the base of the pyramid, or reward them adequately for their efforts and b) because many resources are consumed in non-productive activities such as war campaigns overseas and so on, somehting that adds to the drainage of resources that could otherwise have been used in into more fruiful investments.

This creates a HUGE deficit while other countries -undemocratic or not, meaning that they don't pay the cost of social security to their young ones, like China or India, start to emerge and China to report "astronomical" surpluses in their economic figures year after year since all their productive efforts are not thrown away in meaningless war campaigns. What good is that to their average John Does' I don't know though, but apparently, they don't seem to care that much either. Lau Tze and Kung-fu Tze are long gone and what remains is a twisted version of Shun Tzu's "the art of war", properly adapted to the new era of corporate dominance.

It is now that the US should indulge in reviving the best wealth-creating model whose unblemished image unfortunately starts to fade away due to the greedy and war-tempered leaders and top establishment that drain the country's resources. The driving force of the US economic system was the promise of wealth creation following hard work on productive years. Once the reward isn't there for whatever reason, motivation to work is not there. This is human nature and it is this promise that drove the immigrants to the US instead of keeping them in their poor countries they originally came from.

Stop making stupid wars, try to invest in alternative means production of energy and goods and services and the recipe for another 50-100 years of progress will be there. Otherwise...

...and all that of course keeping in mind that Greeece has a long way to go, no doubt... At least, the US have created a value system that worked for them for a number of years. Greece needs a much deeper change in certain aspects. Better to have naive ethics than no ethics at all...

Tsk, tsk, my goodness. Some folks can't take a little debate without turning ugly.

Kostantinoupolis, I ask you NOT to ban skyduster for that last exchange. Instead, I'm going to ask HIM to cool off and edit that last post of all the garbage he threw in there.

Skyduster, I think you have the right stuff to be a real contributor to this world. You're obviously intelligent, were a good student in school and by all appearances are articulate and well informed.

But you need to get that chip off your shoulder. You're grandparents or great grandparents didn't come over from Greece Third Class on a tramp steamer-just like mine did-so we could be less than the best we can possibly be.

You're Greek, the world expects nothing less than the best from you-and from all of us.

i more or less have to agree with skyduster.
i do have the diplomas,(i do have the big dept also)and i find it hard to get a job,they all ask for work experiance of some years. how am i supposed to get a job if everyone asks for working experiance?
i applied for jobs abroad but guess what....they asked for a medical insurance!!!!!so i pay extra money to have a medical insurance.i was not insured before,i was praying nothing would happen to me.
thats why now that cyprus is implementing its national health system, where EVERYONE will pay around 2,5% of their salaries and everyone is allowed FREE TREATMENT i fully support it!not to mention that the patient will have the right to CHOSE his doctor.
i absolutely believe that HEALTH and EDUCATION should be free for everyone

i absolutely believe that HEALTH and EDUCATION should be free for everyone

I completely agree with you.....I realize that, while in Greece, we expect everything to be done by the State, in the USA, people even though they contribute with what they can, the State provides them less than the least acceptable...These things that I've read in the past posts made me realize how lucky we are here in Greece...WE the Greeks are the total whiners....The State provides us with what it can and we contribute the less we can and still we want more...We are lucky as hell...!!!

The State provides us with what it can and we contribute the less we can and still we want more...We are lucky as hell...!!!

I could not agree more!

Agreed!!!

Το θέμα κλειδώνει προσωρινά.

@ skyduster, Το μήνυμα σου διαγράφηκε ως υβριστικό και προσβλητικό. Σε παρακαλώ να μην ξαναβρίσεις και κυρίως να μην ξαναεπιτεθείς φραστικά σε συνομιλητή σου. Όπως προείπα ο καθένας έχει την άποψη του ( μας αρέσει δεν μας αρέσει ) και από την στιγμή που αυτή η άποψη εκφράζετε ευπρεπώς δεν είναι σωστό να αρχίζουμε να βρίζουμε επειδή απλά δεν συμφωνούμε.

Ελπίζω να δώσεις την πρέπουσα προσοχή στα λεγόμενα μου και να μην επαναλάβεις αυτήν την άσχημη συμπεριφορά στο μέλλον.

By the way, those of you noting the high cost of medicine and drugs in the US-are you really sure you want to lower the high standards that govern those high costs? I've seen story after story on CNN-Worldwide lately about folks around the world sickened and killed by bad drugs coming out of China.

There is a reason those costs are high in the US. Obviously we should do whatever we can to try and lower the cost of prescription drugs and medicines, but making them more affordable has to be carefully controlled.

One last comment: I've said many times in this forum the old saying, "There is no FREE LUNCH". National health care is NOT free. Instead of paying for it yourself, you pay for it through your taxes. Whether that's good or bad depends on where you fall in the income scale. Folks making good salaries get screwed, because they support those making lower incomes.

So, this is all about income-transfer. Taking money from upper income folks and giving it to folks that are lower income. That's the bottom line.

As long as you realize that fact and decide to go with National Health Care Coverage anyway, fine. You've recognized the cost and made the business decision to do it anyway. But don't be misled by believing national health care is free or lower cost. It is NOT.

As several have noted in this forum, Greeks want national health care at the same time they do everything they can to reduce their taxes and hide their income. That's typical human behavior and it's probably the reason that nations with national health care coverage end up with a net decrease in specialized treatment equipment-like CAT scan and MRI.

By the way, those of you noting the high cost of medicine and drugs in the US-are you really sure you want to lower the high standards that govern those high costs? I've seen story after story on CNN-Worldwide lately about folks around the world sickened and killed by bad drugs coming out of China.

Now you're going from one extreme to the other. It's not a choice between expensive but high quality health care in America versus cheap healthcare with hazardous Chinese drugs. Don't try to twist the argument around.

There is a reason those costs are high in the US. Obviously we should do whatever we can to try and lower the cost of prescription drugs and medicines, but making them more affordable has to be carefully controlled.

Yes, there is a reason why costs are so high in the US. Check this out:
http://www.cptech.org/ip/health/econ/allocation.html

Yes, the data is from 1999, but look at the percentage that those large pharmaceutical companies spend on marketing vs. research and development. They spend *a lot* more on marketing in the US. Why? Obviously because they want doctors to use their drugs versus those of a competitor. And yes, while free-market competition can be good in a lot of ways, I don't think human health should be treated as a commodity that goes to the highest bidder. Imagine where we would be if all that marketing money was reallocated to more r&d, or even the same level of r&d but with less marketing (there would be less marketing in a system like Canada's or Greece's for obvious reasons). It would lead to lower costs! Wow, what a concept!

One last comment: I've said many times in this forum the old saying, "There is no FREE LUNCH". National health care is NOT free. Instead of paying for it yourself, you pay for it through your taxes. Whether that's good or bad depends on where you fall in the income scale. Folks making good salaries get screwed, because they support those making lower incomes.

American health care isn't free for the taxpayer either. And by that, I am not referring to private insurance or anything of the sort. I am referring to government spending. Again, while the WHO has ranked the US health system 37th in the world (and last among industrialized countries), it was first in government per capita expenditures, by a wide margin. Not only does the American system not provide coverage for anyone, but it costs the taxpayer *more* money. It's fiscally irresponsible. The amount of bureaucracy and waste in Medicare, Medicaid, etc. is shameful and would make Canada or Greece's problems pale in comparison. All Americans are paying for this travesty, in more ways than one. Americans are paying for a broken system through their tax money. I don't see how that can be justified.

As long as you realize that fact and decide to go with National Health Care Coverage anyway, fine. You've recognized the cost and made the business decision to do it anyway. But don't be misled by believing national health care is free or lower cost. It is NOT.

I don't think anyone is saying that. But in a choice between the money I am paying in taxes going to a system where millions still are uninsured, and a system in which everyone is insured and actually costs less, as I explained above, then I'd go with the second choice any day.

As several have noted in this forum, Greeks want national health care at the same time they do everything they can to reduce their taxes and hide their income. That's typical human behavior and it's probably the reason that nations with national health care coverage end up with a net decrease in specialized treatment equipment-like CAT scan and MRI.

And Americans don't try to reduce their taxes and hide their incomes? "Creative" accounting was born in the United States. Look at Enron. Look at how popular George W. Bush's "tax cuts" were initially and still are to a great extent. And don't tell me that everyone else in the world is absolutely honest in their tax filings while Greeks are the "apateones" and are cheating, because that's totally not true. As you mentioned, it's typical human behavior, but which also transcends ethnicity and borders.

As for specialized equipment...again, what good does it do for me if I cannot afford to be treated on that equipment? Why is "medical tourism" from the USA to Thailand and India and other third-world nations booming? These aren't even poor Americans either....they're middle class and happen to be able to afford a few thousand dollars to get on a plane and go to India for treatment, but cannot afford hundreds of thousands of dollars that the treatment will cost them in the states.

In a nationalized system, anyone that wants specialized treatment or wants to visit a private facility can still do so. You may argue that they are then paying twice...paying taxes for a nationalized system and paying for their own private coverage. Yes, that is true. But that is also the case in the United States, since everyone's taxes fund bloated, failed systems like Medicare and Medicaid, while millions of Americans do not have coverage under any of those systems.

And, responding to some earlier posts in the thread:

skyduster, I don't know how to respond to you. We come from two different generations, two different set of values and two different worlds.

I'm not skyduster, but give me a break. Turning this into an argument of "wise" elders versus naive, idealistic youth adds nothing to the discussion.

I don't think society owes me anything except the opportunity to make my own way. You think society owes folks who come up short-for whatever reason-the difference.

Yeah, I have a PPO and a great one. My company offers a wide variety of plans and I PURCHASE the best one. You'll note that I said "I" purchase it, nobody buys it for me.

That's wonderful. However, the fact remains that most Americans don't have such jobs. And, increasingly, even in corporations which for years have offered generous benefit packages to their employees, such benefits are being pared down significantly for new hires, while the generous benefit packages remain for older employees who were lucky enough to be hired when corporations still cared a bit about their employees instead of treating them as just another commodity. As those employees retire, companies will save lots and lots of money by hiring younger workers and offering them significantly fewer benefits, or, quite often, no benefits at all.

You're also ignoring the reality that it's impossible for any society - capitalist, socialist, communist, fascist, you name it - to be prosperous enough where everyone can get these kinds of white collar jobs that offer these sorts of perks to their workers. Who is going to collect the garbage, mop the floors, lay bricks, mix cement, clean tables at restaurants, do hard labor in the fields, etc.? Who is going to take up all the blue collar jobs? These jobs are always needed, even in a supposedly wealthy, prosperous society such as that in the United States. How about the self-employed as well? All these groups of people are working without a safety net and even if they work 18 hours a day, they're not going to have health coverage, especially top-shelf coverage like yours, and at the same time, they will not make enough money to afford their own private insurance. The poorest will qualify for broken systems like Medicare, but the rest get nothing.

I don't know how old you are, but I'll wager you couldn't keep up with me at work on the best day you ever saw. And I couldn't keep up with my grandfather on the best day that I ever saw-but I'll be damned if I won't try and reach his level.

Here we go again with the "I'm older, I'm wiser, I'm better than you" routine. Reminds me of this old American song...the lyrics were: "Anything you can do, I can do better, I can do anything better than you..."

I haven't always had the fine job that I have now. I used to be income challenged, but I always worked my azz off to make up the difference. Including working 2 and sometimes 3 jobs at times. Way it is, deal with it. And don't whine, I can't stand whiners.

Again, good for you. No one is taking away from your personal accomplishments. But not everyone in society is going to achieve as much as you say you have, and it's not always because they are lazy, as you claim. Capitalism is, by nature, an uneven system. There have to be rich and poor and those in the middle....and the middle is quite broad. And this isn't a knock on capitalism, but it's reality. Again...not everyone is going to get an executive level position or a white collar job. Even in the richest country in the world, many people just won't have these opportunities.

In New York City, where I live, it was on the news recently that New York City's four-year high school graduation rate *reached* 50%. That means that half of the high school graduates in one of the richest cities in the world, New York City, are not completing high school on time. A large percentage of the remaining 50% who don't finish in four years actually drop out and never finish. And this figure represents an *increase* over past years. It's quite sad. A lot of those people might still rebound and manage a respectable living for themselves, if they get a high school degree later or something of the sort, but I am mentioning this to demonstrate that drive and dedication can only get you so far. Most of these people are never going to have a job that pays as well as yours apparently does and provides the same level of benefits.

And another thing...since you like using the generation gap argument, here's something else to ponder: society is becoming evermore competitive, and that is especially true in the realm of education. Jobs that used to require a high school diploma now require a Bachelor's degree, jobs that require a Bachelor's now often "prefer" or outright require a Masters, and even a Masters isn't good enough to get you something more than a entry-level job in many industries. Competition is cut-throat, from getting in to college to getting a job. It was not this cut-throat in the 80s, 70s, 60s, 50's and before. More people are getting educated, more people are going to college, and standards have gone up.

You got straignt A's in school? Fine. Apply that work ethic to generating income and you won't be complaining about health care being non-affordable.

If only it were so easy....unfortunately we don't live in a utopia. And I'm not even talking about the utopia that Marx envisioned.

GM2263 made some excellent points. The United States, as such a rich society, could do so much with its wealth and resources. Waging wars that do nothing but spread hatred on both sides, destroy other countries and take billions of dollars away from the American public is not one of those things. Trillions have been spent in Iraq alone. And yet, the government somehow seems "unable" to come up with the money for social security, for student aid, for universal health care, for all sorts of things the country needs.

Amazingly, during the 1930's and the Great Depression, it was some good old socialism that built many of the lasting pieces of infrastructure in the United States (I'm also trying to inject a little bit of talk about architecture here :) ). In New York City, so many bridges, tunnels and roadways were completed during that era. Most school buildings are from that era. Not surprisingly, after the Depression ended and World War II passed, investments in such projects slowly began to disappear. You had the American interstate system in the 50s and 60s, but what has happened since then? Look at the infrastructure in New York City. Heard about that steam pipe explosion a few days ago? in Midtown Manhattan that left a huge crater in the street and killed one person? It was due to aging, overloaded, poorly maintained vital infrastructure. How about the blackout in Astoria (where, as we all know, one of the largest Greek communities outside of Greece lives) last summer? That area was without power for NINE DAYS. Many businesses closed permanently because they could not afford to stay closed that long, the city and Con Edison (the local private utility) refused to help, and people were left on their own, like the Dark Ages. The city (and state and federal government) have not been investing in things like this that matter: roads, schools, health care, pensions. This in a country that is so rich and prosperous and can afford trillion dollar adventures like the Iraq invasion. And social security was born out of the Great Depression, and to this day, everyone's wages include a percentage that goes to the Social Security fund, not unlike wages being garnished in other countries (including Cyprus with the 2.5% that was mentioned), for similar social programs like health care.

What if all that money was reallocated to research and development for viable technological solutions to eliminate dependence on oil and other fossil fuels? The United States, with its wealth, resources and infrastructure, could lead the way. Instead, you have a government that begrudgingly has agreed to test ethanol as a fossil fuel, only due to intense lobbying from the powerful agricultural lobby (corn farmers) who stand to benefit from it.

Again, I don't believe utopias exist, not in the USA, not in Greece (though a summer day enjoying the sunset and the beautiful caldera view in Santorini with a cold beer is as close to utopia as I've gotten :) )...getting back to the Greek system again, to not stay completely off topic...yes, the system has a lot of problems? Are fakelakia unacceptable? Yes! Are long queues for many treatments unacceptable? Absolutely! Could hospital facilities be better (both in terms of the technology available as well as in terms of architecture and aesthetics)? Definitely. Are there other problems too? Yes, of course. Greece does not have enough nurses, for example. I believe there are actually more doctors than nurses! Definitely all serious problems which must be addressed, and on the part of the public, certainly reason to continue to demand more and better improvements and changes.

But let's give credit where credit is due. The problems the Greek system faces are for the most part not unique to Greece. And just because improvements and changes are required does not mean that a total overhaul to a darwinian American-style system is in order. It doesn't work in the United States, and it won't work in Greece or anywhere else.

Methinks you doth protest too much, Neo. It's apparent we're not going to agree on a matter of economics so why belabor it?

And if you think there's too much fraud with Medicare and Medicaid, multiply that a hundred times with a national health care system.

Hey, what do I care? I'll be dead and buried before the US fully adopts any kind of comprehensive national health care system-presumably in the next 20-30 years. So you younger guys will have to worry about funding it. I'll be happily pushing up petunia's. :banana:

Hey, what do I care? I'll be dead and buried before the US fully adopts any kind of comprehensive national health care system-presumably in the next 20-30 years. So you younger guys will have to worry about funding it. I'll be happily pushing up petunia's. :banana:

I'm really tired of people thinking that in 30 years the average life expectancy will still be somewhere around the 80's. Forget it buddy, nothing less than a century is good, so prepare yourself to see decades over decades of positive changes.

And btw, I'm not optimistic I'm just realistic.

If you think I'm going to be sitting on a porch of some Assisted Living Home when I'm 90-100 with some mavro attendent making minimum wage wiping the drool off my chin every 2 hours you got another think coming! I intend to leave this earth when I'm 75-80, mounted on some bosom 40 year old babe-electrode up my azz if necessary-making heap big whoopie! No "Soylent Green" in Neo's view of the world for this Palakari! OXI..!!

You'll get your socialist Utopia eventually, if only because so many nitwits-like we see in this forum-believe it's a no-cost gain. Or at the very least, somebody else will pay the cost and they'll get the benefit. When the notes come due and reality rears it's ugly head Sodnal will be laughing in the grave and saluting you with his middle-finger!

:banana:

A bit offtopic: Isn't S-O-D-N-A-L = L - A - N - D - O - S in reverse?
That would explain a lot!

A bit offtopic: Isn't S-O-D-N-A-L = L - A - N - D - O - S in reverse?
That would explain a lot!

That's not a discovery at all, as Sodnal himself already clarified that issue in one of his posts.

I had to be distressingly obvious about it as well. :lol:

I had to be distressingly obvious about it as well. ]I had to be distressingly obvious about it as well.:lol:

Don't you know that creating multiple accounts is forbidden?

Landos was banned. I decided to try again and behave myself better.

You have to admit, my presence is a net gain for the forum. If nothing else, I provoke discussion.

Is Landos now unbanned? :banana:

Having spent much time in hospitals in Canada, I still believe the universal health care system far surpases anything in the United States as well as Greece. There might be more CAT scans and MRIs per person in the US and perhaps even in Greece, but what good are they if only the few who can afford them have access. If my parents immigrated to the US rather than Canada chances are I would have been dead years ago because they would not be able to afford the expensive healthcare cost in the US, while here in Canada it is covered. In Canada you can go to any doctor or any hospital the insurance companies can't say we don't cover you because you are already covered by the government. Everyone should see Michael Moores documentary called Sicko. Working class people in the US have much worse health care than working class people in Canada. Now during the US elections in the US the general public is fed a bunch a lies concerning universal healthcare. In fact in countries where private insurance companies have more power than government it is the 'free market' that denies access to healthcare to patients that don't have enough money or possess a medical precondition. Unfortunately the big pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies have strong powerful lobbies in the US. The same drug sold here in Canada is more exepensive in the US because there are fewer generic drugs available in the States since the big pharmaceuticals demand to have longer periods over patents. Even the Democratic candidates are afraid to take on these companies, that is why despite the US being a military superpower it has a terrible healthcare system.

As for Greece, being number 14 on the list of world medical ranking seems way too high in my opinion. I know from family who visit doctors and hospitals in Greece that without offering 'envelops' to the medical staff and doctors you take a risk with the level of care you receive. In my opinion both Greece and the US have one of the most barbaric type of healthcare systems in the world, one based on the size of the patients wallet instead of based on the patients needs. The government of Greece would be wise to adopt the Canadian model in which no hospitals are private, and no doctor can accept any type of extra billing unless authorized by the government.

Everyone should see Michael Moores documentary called Sicko. Working class people in the US have much worse health care than working class people in Canada. Now during the US elections in the US the general public is fed a bunch a lies concerning universal healthcare. In fact in countries where private insurance companies have more power than government it is the 'free market' that denies access to healthcare to patients that don't have enough money or possess a medical precondition. Unfortunately the big pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies have strong powerful lobbies in the US.

Buddy, you said the truth. Unfortunately patients are nothing more than clients to them, and diseases just the demand of this offer and demand thing.

Another movie that covers this issue in a more fictional, but still clear way, is John Q with Denzel Washington.

Having spent much time in hospitals in Canada, I still believe the universal health care system far surpases anything in the United States as well as Greece. There might be more CAT scans and MRIs per person in the US and perhaps even in Greece, but what good are they if only the few who can afford them have access. If my parents immigrated to the US rather than Canada chances are I would have been dead years ago because they would not be able to afford the expensive healthcare cost in the US, while here in Canada it is covered. In Canada you can go to any doctor or any hospital the insurance companies can't say we don't cover you because you are already covered by the government. Everyone should see Michael Moores documentary called Sicko. Working class people in the US have much worse health care than working class people in Canada. Now during the US elections in the US the general public is fed a bunch a lies concerning universal healthcare. In fact in countries where private insurance companies have more power than government it is the 'free market' that denies access to healthcare to patients that don't have enough money or possess a medical precondition. Unfortunately the big pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies have strong powerful lobbies in the US. The same drug sold here in Canada is more exepensive in the US because there are fewer generic drugs available in the States since the big pharmaceuticals demand to have longer periods over patents. Even the Democratic candidates are afraid to take on these companies, that is why despite the US being a military superpower it has a terrible healthcare system.

As for Greece, being number 14 on the list of world medical ranking seems way too high in my opinion. I know from family who visit doctors and hospitals in Greece that without offering 'envelops' to the medical staff and doctors you take a risk with the level of care you receive. In my opinion both Greece and the US have one of the most barbaric type of healthcare systems in the world, one based on the size of the patients wallet instead of based on the patients needs. The government of Greece would be wise to adopt the Canadian model in which no hospitals are private, and no doctor can accept any type of extra billing unless authorized by the government.

Have you ever required an MRI in canada to rule out a serious condition? Well I have. I had a brain tumor scare 7 years ago and I had to wait 10 (yes 10!!!) months to have an MRI. Now you try and live a normal life for 10 months when a doctor has told you that the cause of your symptoms cold be a brain tumor. I said, "fuck that, I deserve answers NOW." So I flew to the United States and paid, with MY OWN hard-earned money, to have an MRI done immediately. Thankfully it wasn't a tumor. The point is, I don't need the government and their inefficient health care system to tell me how I can spend my hard-earned money. Waiting months or even years for surgeries and MRI's as many Canadians do is UNACCEPTABLE.

I am not saying the U.S. system is good but don't paint the Canadian system as an ideal, or efficient one, because quite frankly, it sucks when you REALLY need it.

Leafs Fanatic, I am sorry to hear of your experience, I know many people who have suffered waiting for treatment.

All I can say, from my experience, I still prefer the Canadian model. As I stated if I had been born in the US my parents would never have been able to afford the medical treatment I required which was experimental at the time (1976) and most likely would not be alive today. Also I understand the fear of wait times, I had a recent scare with my mother and we had to wait months for her to see a specialist. My main point however, is that I prefer a system that doesn't require coverage based on how much money you have in your pocket but based on your needs as a patient. The government system here allows you to go to any doctor or hospital, if you need specialized test the doctors refer you to a specialist for test, and sometimes you have to wait. Is it scary? Is it frustrating? Hell, yes! The alternative is the US model, wait times based on money! But what if I cannot afford to go to a specialist as many cannot afford to do so in Greece and the US, isn't that worse? Never to get the chance to see a specialist, have a test done or get treatment. Wait time in Canada is based on what a medical professional assesses your condition to be, from moderate to critical, so at times you may have to wait for tests and treatments, but you are never denied access! To be denied access because you cannot afford healthcare, is barbaric. Furthermore, our healthcare system in Canada is more efficient than in the US, because there is less of a bureaucracy concerning all the duplicate paperwork that is required by American insurance companies. Do you know life expectancy is longer in Canada, and its infant mortality rate is lower than that of the U.S.? Over 35 million people do not have healthcare in America, do you think they have a better healthcare system than the average Canadian citizen???

Most people who advocate a private healthcare system do so because they can afford to pay for quick access to private clinics and doctors. Yet this system does not address the needs of the majority of people, who want to be able to go to a doctor or hospital without second guessing if they can afford to do so. In the US and Greece private individuals or groups raise money to pay for some poor soul to get an operation or some type of treatment they can't afford. My question is, shouldn't every citizen in the country have a right to access healthcare whether rich or poor without relying on charity? These fundraisers illustrate how broken the private healthcare system is. Just like schools, parks, garbage collection is paid for by our taxes, so to should be healthcare. It should be the constitutional right of every citizen to have universal healthcare access based of their needs, not on what they can afford to pay. The rich should not jump to the head of the line to get care, instead everyone should get access to care according to their needs. Just like when you go to an emergency room in a Toronto hospital the medical personnel quickly assess how critical your situation is, and adminster treatment based on that reality, not on how much money you can pay them. I want doctors and medical professionals to care about curing the sick, not how much money they can squeeze out of me. Canada's system may not be perfect, but it far surpasses anything in the US and Greece.

@SonOfSparta

This is a very sensitive topic for me, and one with which I am more than familiar. I'll try to contain myself...

I'll start by saying that you are misinformed at best. You are correct that the American health care system is mostly private, but you have been drastically misled if you believe that the Greek system is also mostly private. The Greek system has both a public and private nature, with different hospitals for each system (with the exception of some procedures at private hospitals paid for by the public system). Let me assure you that each taxpayer in Greece has access to 1st world standard medical care, regardless of his/her income. As in Canada, when dealing with the public sector in Greece, there may be increased waiting time and other unfortunate aspects encountered when dealing with a public system. The good thing about Greece's overall health care system, however, is that there is also a private sector that is available to those willing (and able) to pay more money for better/faster health care.

This is not to say that this system is perfect either, as this introduces inequality in society based on income. We do, however, live in a capitalistic world where money/effort/ability matter, making this mixed public/private system most compatible and beneficial for such a society (assuming the public system abides by certain minimum health care standards, which it does in Greece).

There are problems in the Greek system, including disorganization and inefficiency; but, for the most part, these are problems that can be fixed (and, in fact, have been drastically improving in recent years).

The foundation for the best possible medical system for a mostly capitalistic society is there. It's not by accident that Greece was ranked 14th.

Greecelightning, since I don't know all about the internal Greek healthcare system as you do, my comments to you are more general. I can tell you I have family in Greece like many others who have experienced unfortunate situations in hospitals and dealing with doctors. As you can tell from my post I am a strong advocate of the Canadian universal healthcare system. When you have a mix of both private and public as you do in Greece, I believe the Public system suffers as a result. My uncle who passed away last year this time was unfortunately misdiagnosed in a smaller hospital in Sparti, by the time he was transferred to a bigger Public hospital in Athens there was little time to save him. All along the way, if my family wanted nurses to keep a better eye on him, there was this nasty Greek "tradition" of offering envelopes with money. I don't want to believe healthcare professionals don't try to take care of all their patients. I am sure the majority do. My problem is why have a two tier system that allows the rich faster access than the poor. With this Easter season being celebrated I truly ask where are our Christian values? Private healthcare clinics and hospitals allows people to access to healthcare based on money not on needs. DO you not see this as being scary? For myself born with a physical disability that required major surgery at a young age I often wondered what would have happened to me if my parents immigrated to the States or stayed in Greece rather than coming here to Canada. Without this expensive surgery I probably wouldn't be here today. Since my operation over 30 years ago I thank God that my parents came to a land where the idea of universal public healthcare was embraced strongly by our federal government.

If you ever have the chance to come to Canada or speak to Canadians you will find most of them are strong supporters of this idea of universal healthcare. Once you allow people "to pay more money for better/faster health care" you take away from the concept of universality, greed and money enters the equation. If my uncle had more money would he have seen a specialist faster in Greece? Would he have received better care in a private clinic? Shouldn't people get access to healthcare based on their medical condition rather than how much they can pay? Why is there such a big problem with people paying doctors with envelops of money under the counter in Greece? Also how many senior medical professionals go to private hospitals to make more money in Greece? How many senior experienced doctors are there in Public hospitals verses Private hospitals? What is the difference of wait times in private clinics verses public ones? Is there a brain drain on the Public system since I assume the Private Sector can pay more?

How can you assure "that each taxpayer in Greece has access to 1st world standard medical care, regardless of his/her income" when a private system co-exists "to those willing (and able) to pay more money for better/faster health care?" You see, for me a system that allows both private and public means that if you have money, your healthcare coverage is automatically better in a country where you can simply "pay for better/faster health care." I have a strong moral problem with that type of system. There is inherent inequality of quality access to healthcare therefore in nations with a two tier healthcare system.

When I'm saying that the American health system is far from perfect I'm not implying that the Canadian is better or worse, I simply don't have the right to give any opinion about the latter as I don't know anything about it, however I can say lots of things about the American health system as I spend a long time of the year in the US; moreover I've tried it once as I had an accident playing street Basketball and had to spend 2 days in the St Claire Hospital of NYC with my left leg hanging all the time, until I've been discharged and then for one more week at home.

So, I agree with LEAFS; that if one has the money the American health system is really a good one, however there're millions who cannot afford that excelent system having to put up with all the burden of a health system reserved only for those "clients" who can pay for it.

I think that any of the two dem candidates will manage to pull it off, on the other hand Mr. Mc Cain is resolved to continue this silly war and keep spending all the Federal budget on stupid weapons instead on a more affordable health system for everyone and with the same quality that you get when paying for it.