Is it just possible while none of us were noticing that US Cellular Field went from being a stark, cold, heartless ball park when compared to the retroparks that came afterwards into one of the better ballparks in baseball?

To me, yes.

As the new ball parks became too quaint, too cute, too quirky and too contrived and disneyfied in their realtionship with the past, the new Comiskey's clean, symmetrical lines and lack of quirks begins to look refreshing. In additon, the changes in the ball park have lowered the upper deck to human scale and topped it with a real feeling of enclosure. The green seats scream "baseball". And the whole sweep of the stands, the celebration of the curve rather than the angular offers a beauty other new parks can't match.

Perhaps this park more than any other in MLB today pays deverence (without copying) the classic lines of Dodger Stadium. Perhaps even more remarkably in a ball park desingned to be state-of-the-art unadorned "modern", could this symetrical, staight forwad park be more of a kin to Wrigley Field than any park built since 1990?

Look, the Cell has its faults. I'd love to see them tear down the signage in the outfield and open that area up into some kind of Sheffield and Waveland relationship to the park. I hate the ramps that intrude upon the architecture of the facade. And the vertical areas between the upper and lower decks is still a bit too massive for my taste.

Still, on the whole, I believe like an ugly duckling, this one really has turned into a swan. There is a whole shitload of retroparks I wouldn't trade for the Cell.

Is it just possible that Chicago is a baseball park winner some 35 or 36 blocks north and south of the Loop?

I love the changes that were made. At first it was the worst park I've been to, now I love it. The roof is a 100% improvement from what it was. Too bad the team on the field has been pathetic this year. :bash:

Here is a shot I took a few weeks ago......




http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f21/cbotnyse/Picture064-1.jpg

^^ thanks cbot. and that shot captures those great curved, symmetrical lines I was talking about.

as for the poor play, Sox fans were more than fortunate in 05 to survive a bad year once in a whiie. Let's all enjoy the fact that this is turning into a real Cub year.

^^ thanks cbot. and that shot captures those great curved, symmetrical lines I was talking about.

as for the poor play, Sox fans were more than fortunate in 05 to survive a bad year once in a whiie. Let's all enjoy the fact that this is turning into a real Cub year.enjoy that fact?? :bash: :bash: :bash: I hate the Cubs! well if the Cubs do somehow magically find a way to win it all (won't happen), at least the Sox can show them a good parade route and how to properly hold the trophy!

My only real problem with The Cell is that sea of parking asphalt it sits on...otherwise, a great place to catch a game.

Sox suck.

enjoy that fact?? :bash: :bash: :bash: I hate the Cubs! well if the Cubs do somehow magically find a way to win it all (won't happen), at least the Sox can show them a good parade route and how to properly hold the trophy!

i guess that 5-1 intracity record (or 1-5 if you prefer) this year did little to curtail the hate fest.:banana:

My only real problem with The Cell is that sea of parking asphalt it sits on...otherwise, a great place to catch a game.

:dunno:

I dont know how anyone can be against corporate sponsors of stadiums when they see the improvements done at the Cell.

I dont know how anyone can be against corporate sponsors of stadiums when they see the improvements done at the Cell.

it is a trade off, don't you think? but i have to agree that this corporate sponsership worked well and i am rather amazed that it was able to correct the thinking that went into the original park when it opened in 1990(?) at a time when the warmer tones of the retroparks weren't in place.

How do you guys think the Cell would look with a more Wrigley like outfield with the signs removed and perhaps Shefield and Waveland type homes in both left and right (assuming the CHA tower ever was torn down)???

The sins of Comiskular Park are too many to be swept away by a simple facelift, but lets review them, shall we?

1. The ballpark faces the wrong way. There is a reason that Old Comsikey and Wrigley face(d) north. Attending a day game at Comiskular in mid-summer makes you feel like a broken egg on a Tucson sidewalk. The sun beats down, reflects off of the concrete, and you fry. Its not just bad - its AWFUL. Now imagine if the ballpark faced north east instead. The upper deck would shade the stadium. And can you imaging the views from the upperdeck?

2. The ramps devour a good percentage of the facade. Originally, they were to be intricate and beautiful. When the bids came in over budget, they were dumbed down to the point that they don't look a whole lot different than a parking garage, which, not coincidently, is what JW Peters (the precaster) specializes in.

3. The parking lot - 'nuff said.

4. The steel fru-fru at the top. This is not a steel structure, folks, and this cheesy attempt to make it look like one is about as sexy as a bad boob job. It is not just absurd - it is utterly ridculous. Comiskular is a CONCRETE structure, and make-believe trusses are a totally inapropriate use of structural steel.

5. The fact that the taxpayers paid for and subsidize this monstrosity in the form of sweetheart rent.

On top of that, the access restrictions the White Sox have imposed on the lower concourses and the outfield also diminsh the fan experience.

The positive things about Comiskular:

1. The sight lines are uniformly excellent.
2. The concourses are nice and wide.
3. The food is good.
4. The outfield towers look nice.
5. The near-perfect symmetry is easy on the eyes.

Note that all of the positives about that stadium were there the day it opened, as were the negatives, so to claim, as some have, that the ballpark is different now is laughable. Its like saying a Danley garage is not a Danley garage if you add some clapboard and change the paint color.

On the whole, the ballpark was a mistake. The city would be better off if the White Sox had left, because Old Comisky WAS salvageable, and would not have been torn down. We would have gotten another American League team playing in a renovated Old Comiskey Park. Maybe even one that pays their own way. And McCuddies would still be there, too.

The ballpark is different. The fan deck in center, the fundamental deck in left and the new roof are all fantastic improvments. The new roof makes sitting in the UD tolerable. And the park just switched to all green seats, getting rid of the hideous blue seats. To say the park is not different is laughable. Furthermore, season ticket holders have full access to the park, even if in the UD. I hate that rule also, but a few asshole fans really ruined that for many. But that is no different then rules at many parks around MLB.

I do agree however that the park should face north. I have no idea why it doesnt. That would have been much much better.

The city would be better off if the White Sox had left, because Old Comisky WAS salvageable, and would not have been torn down. We would have gotten another American League team playing in a renovated Old Comiskey Park.


We would not have received another AL team. And if we did, the gap it faced with Cubs would have been insurmountable.

Chicago is unique. Its NL franchise was right there in Chicago when the league started. Its AL franchise was right there n Chicago when its league started. From 1958-61, Chicago alone had MLB teams in both leagues. Chicago baseball is traditon rich. Our pride goes back to Tinkers and Evers and Chance and way even perversely celebrate the Black Sox like we do Al Capone.

Chicago was, is, and hopefully always be about two teams whose roots go to the beginnings of baseball in both major leagues...and not another MLB city can even touch us in that distinction.

The ballpark is different. The fan deck in center, the fundamental deck in left and the new roof are all fantastic improvments. The new roof makes sitting in the UD tolerable. And the park just switched to all green seats, getting rid of the hideous blue seats. To say the park is not different is laughable.

I do agree however that the park should face north. I have no idea why it doesnt. That would have been much much better.

i'd add to this that a team that has traditonally played a heavily night game laden schedule is less affected by field orientation than one that faces the sun of Clark and Addison most of the year.

whats wrong with the parking lot?? :dunno:

whats wrong with the parking lot?? :dunno:


Lol...I'm still waiting to hear what is wrong with the parking lots, too. Granted, I would like to see maybe one of them taken away and developed on. But overall the lots are very necessary and attending a game for most folks would be a nightmare without them.

FreeRadical makes some really good points and a few awful ones.

1. Completely agree the park should face north. The story I always heard on why it didnt is because they wanted home plate to be at the corner of 35th and Shields like it had been for the last 80 years.

2. Completely agree about the ramps. Its a shame the facade is masked because it really is nice.

3. Disagree about the parking lots. See above.

4. Completely disagree about the fru-fru steel. But its hard to comment because I have no idea what a "fru-fru" is. The steel looks great, especially since it used to be white around the outfield. This cant be the first structure to have both steel and concrete, is it???? How are the trusses make-believe?

5. Welcome to the world of professional stadiums.

As far as restricting fan access, it doesnt bother me because I'm a season ticket holder and can go where I want. cbotnyse was right in that a few bad apples ruined it for everyone, but thats how it goes. Smart fans who visit different ballparks know that some teams do this, and you will have to just ante up for a lower level ticket.

Bottom line: Saying the park is no different than when it opened puts you in the VAST minority. And as far as Old Comiskey being salvageable, sure it was. Almost anything is salvageable if you have the money. But if it costs you more to salvage it then start from scratch, pretty easy decision.

Other than a paint job and a few decorative touches, I don't see much before and after, at least on the inside of the stadium where it matters. That is why I suspect that most of the vast differentness is wishful thinking on the part of the Sox faithful.

I do like the color change, but I think the windscreen/roof is stupid beyond words.

Anyway, I don't dislike the place by any means. But I AM immune to the hype about it.

The place was neither as "awesome" as everyboy said it was when it opened, as "awful" as everybody said a few years back, nor as wonderful as the Sox fans seem to think it is today. It is a good ballpark, no more and no less. It will last 40-50 years and be torn down and replaced. The next stadium will be built on the sight of Old Comiskey Park. It will face the correct direction (north east) and will have spectacular downtown views. THAT, in a nutshell, is "the world of professional stadiums". They obsolete quickly, which is why Wrigley Field is so extraordinary.

But please don't kid yourself about whether Old Comiskey could have been saved for less money than was spent on the new facility. The engineering report that said it would cost more to save it was done by an engineering firm from Kansas City that did a lot of work for HOK Sport. Its findings were decided before it was ever started, and everybody knew it.

Anyway, Comiskular is here for the forseeable, so here's some trivia for you....

Both the skybox addition to old Soldier Field and Comiskular Fark had the same design architect. First, look at the outfield towers and trusses at the ballpark:

http://inlinethumb29.webshots.com/3036/1005505732000388294S600x600Q85.jpg

Now look at the windows on the skybox addition at old Soldier field:

http://www.stadiumsofnfl.com/past/soldier.jpg

Look familiar? Now, if you look at the original windows on Soldier Field below the skyboxes, you can see that pattern of the outfield towers and trusses at Comiskular are based on the original windows at Soldier Field.

FR, OK we get it, you dont care for the changes. I happen to like them. But please answer what is wrong with the parking lot besides, "nuff said"?

Other than a paint job and a few decorative touches, I don't see much before and after, at least on the inside of the stadium where it matters. That is why I suspect that most of the vast differentness is wishful thinking on the part of the Sox faithful..

??? The Fan Deck in center is one of the best spots to watch a game in the entire place. The Fundamentals Deck in left is the best kids area in all of baseball. The Scout Seats behind home are a destination in themselves. The seats added down each foul line. The changing of the seating bowl from blue to green. The brick accents. The decorative lighting and signage. Oh yeah, and of course the new paint job. :nuts:

I do like the color change, but I think the windscreen/roof is stupid beyond words...

The windscreen/roof is widely considered the best change that was made by the vast majority of people. No question. Myself included as I sit underneath it 30 days out of the year.



Look familiar? Now, if you look at the original windows on Soldier Field below the skyboxes, you can see that pattern of the outfield towers and trusses at Comiskular are based on the original windows at Soldier Field.

An X pattern????? Thats the famous design that was copied? An X??

I do agree however that the park should face north. I have no idea why it doesnt. That would have been much much better.

my guess? main entrances need to be on major streets. If that is the case, 35th Street needed to have the main gates and that gives the south orientation.

Imagine if Shefield and Waveland were asked to carry the load of Clark and Addison...doubt that it could have been done.

my guess? main entrances need to be on major streets. If that is the case, 35th Street needed to have the main gates and that gives the south orientation.

Imagine if Shefield and Waveland were asked to carry the load of Clark and Addison...doubt that it could have been done.sounds good to me. I'm over it. :cheers:

Anyone who has ever sat under the roof during a cold or hot day a rain delay or light drizzle, spent time in the upper concourse at night caught a game on the fandeck or the bullpen bar or brought their kids to a game would call you a nutjob for arguing that the stadium hasn't been significantly improved.

anyone who claims Chicago would be better if the sox had left and old comiskey had been saved has no understanding of the city, baseball, heritage, or common sense.

You would lose one of the oldest franchises in sports to save a dump stadium. You, sir, go change your name to Sarasota Sox. You have no credibility on anything related to Chicago from this point on.

Anyone who has ever sat under the roof during a cold or hot day a rain delay or light drizzle, spent time in the upper concourse at night caught a game on the fandeck or the bullpen bar or brought their kids to a game would call you a nutjob for arguing that the stadium hasn't been significantly improved.

anyone who claims Chicago would be better if the sox had left and old comiskey had been saved has no understanding of the city, baseball, heritage, or common sense.

You would lose one of the oldest franchises in sports to save a dump stadium. You, sir, go change your name to Sarasota Sox. You have no credibility on anything related to Chicago from this point on.

and if you don't believe that, check out that heap of shit on State Street that used to be known as Marshall Field's. I won't refer to it by name, but it isn't the F word; it's the M word.

??? The Fan Deck in center is one of the best spots to watch a game in the entire place. The Fundamentals Deck in left is the best kids area in all of baseball. The Scout Seats behind home are a destination in themselves. The seats added down each foul line. The changing of the seating bowl from blue to green. The brick accents. The decorative lighting and signage. Oh yeah, and of course the new paint job.

While I admire your passion for White Sox, there are three things to keep in mind:

1. Really great stadiums do not need gimmicks.
2. Gimmickery (which is what a lot of this is) has a long tradition with the White Sox. Think Bill Veeck and the exploding scoreboard. But they don't make the STADIUM any better or any worse, just like the build-out of a storefront does not make the BUILDING better or worse.
3. I have a totally different perspective on stadiums in general and Comiskey Park in particular than the average person.

The windscreen/roof is widely considered the best change that was made by the vast majority of people. No question. Myself included as I sit underneath it 30 days out of the year.

And of course, "vast majority consider" equals truth, right? Just like the weapons of mass distruction.

If you mean extending the windscreen/roof I concur. If you mean the cheesy attempt to make it resemble Camden Yards I am not on board with it because Comiskular is a MODERN stadium, not a faux-historical one. Its not a question of WHAT. Its a question of HOW.

An X pattern????? Thats the famous design that was copied? An X??

Are you trying to make a point????? Is that how you do it? Ask meaningless questions and add lots of question marks??

Please reread my post (I said "trivia", not "famous"). If you have anything coherent to say on the subject, post it. Otherwise, take it to the White Sox message boards.

Anyone who has ever sat under the roof during a cold or hot day a rain delay or light drizzle, spent time in the upper concourse at night caught a game on the fandeck or the bullpen bar or brought their kids to a game would call you a nutjob for arguing that the stadium hasn't been significantly improved.

anyone who claims Chicago would be better if the sox had left and old comiskey had been saved has no understanding of the city, baseball, heritage, or common sense.

You would lose one of the oldest franchises in sports to save a dump stadium. You, sir, go change your name to Sarasota Sox. You have no credibility on anything related to Chicago from this point on.

Looking back, it was a mistake not to call Jerry and Eddie's bluff and to renovate the old stadium with or without them. Chicago may have lost a baseball team, but it would have retained a piece of its history, and I am still of the opinion that the American League would have found a way to put a team in Chicago. Sox fans would have embraced the new team because they find it easier to cheer for anyone than the Cubs.

I am also of the opinion that if the new owner of the Cubs makes the ill-informed decision to move the team to the suburbs, a new team will move into Wrigley and within five years THAT team will become the city's favorite.

Why? Because the product is not "Cubs" and "Sox". The product is North Side and South Side baseball. The uniform the players wear is only one of the components, and in the final analysis, a fairly minor one.

The Chicago Fire are finding out the hard way that the market for "Bridgeview Soccer" is significantly smaller than the market for "Soldier Field Soccer", even though the uniform is the same. Anyone want to bet the new owners try to renegotiate their lease at Toyota Park?

FR, OK we get it, you dont care for the changes. I happen to like them. But please answer what is wrong with the parking lot besides, "nuff said"?

Before I answer your question, I want to clarify something:

I didn't say I don't care for the changes. I said that people are making a bigger deal out of them than they really are, and I said that the place has been over-hyped, both positively and negatively, during its relatively short life.

Saying that I think the changes are *over-hyped* is not the same thing as saying that I *dislike* them. And saying that I think it was a decent ballpark when it was first built is not the same as saying that I think it sucks now.

Now for your question:

What do surface parking lots do to a neighborhood? They destroy it. In the case of Comiskular, they isolate the ballpark. The "we need the parking" argument is thouroughly debunked by the fact that Wrigley Field is an integral part of the neighborhood and thrives without masssive surface parking lots. As you know, Wrigley Field also draws tons of minivans from the suburbs, too.

Now its your turn. Tell us how Comiskular's parking lots add to the game day experience. Do the fans use it for tail-gating?

Before I answer your question, I want to clarify something:

I didn't say I don't care for the changes. I said that people are making a bigger deal out of them than they really are, and I said that the place has been over-hyped, both positively and negatively, during its relatively short life.

Saying that I think the changes are *over-hyped* is not the same thing as saying that I *dislike* them. And saying that I think it was a decent ballpark when it was first built is not the same as saying that I think it sucks now.OK your circular logic here is bindboggling. You think the changes are overhyped. OK fine, I'm not here to convince you otherwise. You started out saying that the park is different is "laughable" we'll you lost me right there. The park is clearly different from where it was. If you dont care to see that, then whatever. It all comes down to the product on the field anyway. Cubs fans can have their historic park and turn out losing teams every year for all I care. I'm happy with a World Series and a "mistake" of a ballpark. You called the changes at the park "sins", sorry I took that as you dislike them. My bad.

Now for your question:

What do surface parking lots do to a neighborhood? They destroy it. In the case of Comiskular, they isolate the ballpark. The "we need the parking" argument is thouroughly debunked by the fact that Wrigley Field is an integral part of the neighborhood and thrives without masssive surface parking lots. As you know, Wrigley Field also draws tons of minivans from the suburbs, too.clearly you know nothing about Bridgeport or its residents. Bridgeport is home to the same families since this city was founded. They have no interest in turning it into "Wrigleyville". Thats the way they like it, and thats the way it is going to stay. Having said that, I think the neighborhood does need better options to eat and drink before and after games and I hope to see that soon, but no where near the scale of the north side.

Now its your turn. Tell us how Comiskular's parking lots add to the game day experience. Do the fans use it for tail-gating?Is this a serious question? I can only assume you've never been to a game. Walk through the parking lot on any given game day and nearly every spot is grilling, drinking, playing bean bags, etc....It is a perfect way to enjoy a pregame.

Walk through the parking lot on any given game day and nearly every spot is grilling, drinking, playing bean bags, etc....

that's what i hate most about comiskular's parking lots, all that tailgating makes me feel like i'm in some hick college town instead of in the middle of an amazing and urban city. wrigleyville feels urban, the area immediately around comiskular feels small town/suburban. the parking lots must go.

that's what i hate most about comiskular's parking lots, all that tailgating makes me feel like i'm in some hick college town instead of in the middle of an amazing and urban city. wrigleyville feels urban, the area immediately around comiskular feels small town/suburban. the parking lots must go.

Dan, do you really belive that the area around the Cell ten years from now will be anything but urban?

^ well the lots have been there for over 15 years now, what makes you so confident that they're gonna magically disappear in the next 10?

I think the changes done to the cell since its opening have been admirable if purely cosmetic and somewhat superficial. It is indeed better then it used to be but it frankly is still not a new special place to see a ball game (like PacBell or PNC are). It is my opinion though that it still not out of the bottom quarter of ballparks in MLB. It is an adequate ballpark but Chicago deserved something more then adequate.

Developing the lots around the park like they are in San Diego or St.Louis (though they are different in that they are downtown revitalization projects) could help out the atmosphere but I can't remember really hearing boo about development of lots at either the Cell or UC which I would have thought may come to pass by now so I wouldn't put chips down that either are going to get developed in the near future until there is good reason to think the owners and neighborhood really want it.

that's what i hate most about comiskular's parking lots, all that tailgating makes me feel like i'm in some hick college town instead of in the middle of an amazing and urban city. wrigleyville feels urban, the area immediately around comiskular feels small town/suburban. the parking lots must go.do you feel the same way about Solider Field during a Bears game? I'm sorry but I completely disagree. I've never had that feeling at all.

clearly you know nothing about Bridgeport or its residents. Bridgeport is home to the same families since this city was founded. They have no interest in turning it into "Wrigleyville". Thats the way they like it, and thats the way it is going to stay. Having said that, I think the neighborhood does need better options to eat and drink before and after games and I hope to see that soon, but no where near the scale of the north side.

Clearly you don't know that New Comiskey Park is in Armour Square, not Bridgeport, and that an African-American neighborhood was leveled to build it.

Does that matter to you? Probably not. Its next to Brdigeport, and that's close enough, right? But with the amount of racial acrimony that has existed historically between those two neighborhoods, it is REALLY a stretch to say they are the same 'hood.

Clearly you don't know that New Comiskey Park is in Armour Square, not Bridgeport, and that an African-American neighborhood was leveled to build it.

Does that matter to you? Probably not. Its next to Brdigeport, and that's close enough, right? But with the amount of racial acrimony that has existed historically between those two neighborhoods, it is REALLY a stretch to say they are the same 'hood.are you trying to give me a lesson on where Bridgeport is? OK, my great grandparents built the first housing on 30th and Shields. My grandparents and his siblings built the first housing along 31st and Wells. I have no less than 25 relatives that live there to this day. Oh and I lived there for 5 years too. Never once was it known as "Armour Square" neighborhood. It is Bridgeport.

Is that really the only reply you have to post? talk about a STRETCH. amazing.

seriously, are you from Chicago? have you ever been to US Cellular Field? ever? seriously?

^ well the lots have been there for over 15 years now, what makes you so confident that they're gonna magically disappear in the next 10?

the Near South Side being in a different point in its redevelopment.

While I admire your passion for White Sox, there are three things to keep in mind:

1. Really great stadiums do not need gimmicks.
2. Gimmickery (which is what a lot of this is) has a long tradition with the White Sox. Think Bill Veeck and the exploding scoreboard. But they don't make the STADIUM any better or any worse, just like the build-out of a storefront does not make the BUILDING better or worse.
3. I have a totally different perspective on stadiums in general and Comiskey Park in particular than the average person.



And of course, "vast majority consider" equals truth, right? Just like the weapons of mass distruction.

If you mean extending the windscreen/roof I concur. If you mean the cheesy attempt to make it resemble Camden Yards I am not on board with it because Comiskular is a MODERN stadium, not a faux-historical one. Its not a question of WHAT. Its a question of HOW.



Are you trying to make a point????? Is that how you do it? Ask meaningless questions and add lots of question marks??

Please reread my post (I said "trivia", not "famous"). If you have anything coherent to say on the subject, post it. Otherwise, take it to the White Sox message boards.


What gimmicks? Structural additions to the ballpark are considered gimmicks to you? Where do you draw the line then? Are brand new stadiums 'gimmicky'? Besides, please find where I said US Cellular Field is a "great stadium." I never said that.

"Vast majority" means that most people will disagree with you. Thats not too hard to understand. If you dont understand that than please send me a pm and I will attempt to dumb it down for you.

Last but not least, numerous question marks means your statement is dumber than usual and you need to elaborate. Thanks.

^^ have to agree with you on the gimmicks. with all the retroparks that came on board after the cell, the cell now would rank as one of the lowest ballparks in the category of gimmicks. compared to ariz, det, houston, san diego, texas, etc., the cell is almost gimmick free.

are you trying to give me a lesson on where Bridgeport is? OK, my great grandparents built the first housing on 30th and Shields. My grandparents and his siblings built the first housing along 31st and Wells. I have no less than 25 relatives that live there to this day. Oh and I lived there for 5 years too. Never once was it known as "Armour Square" neighborhood. It is Bridgeport.

Is that really the only reply you have to post? talk about a STRETCH. amazing.

seriously, are you from Chicago? have you ever been to US Cellular Field? ever? seriously?

You are the first person I've EVER met that considers the black neighborhood that New Comiskey sits on to be "Bridgeport". I really admire your progressive and inclusive racial attitudes. I know that is atypical in that part of the world, so I hope your entire extended family feels the same way.

You are the first person I've EVER met that considers the black neighborhood that New Comiskey sits on to be "Bridgeport". I really admire your progressive and inclusive racial attitudes. I know that is atypical in that part of the world, so I hope your entire extended family feels the same way.

i always thought of the new and old Comisky being Bridgeport and never gave a thought to race because of it. Especially when it appears the truly expanding race in the area isn't white but Asian anyway.

I hope Chicago will become a place where whites, blacks, Hispanics, and Asians (along with all others) will feel thoroughly at home and be treated with the same dignity, respect, and opportunity that all people deserve. Race is an issue that we all need to get behind us.

So if you are ignorant enough or have enough of a chip on your shoulder because somebody fucking saw where one neighborhood is separated from another, then that is your problem and not either cbotnyse's or mine.

Seems to me that you have introduced the racial card here, not cbotnyse and you are the one who has shown prejudice and not him.

Most intelligent white Chicagoans (and white Americans) know that black Americans have gotten an absolutely shitty deal in the US...from slavery, to Jim, to the civil rights era, to the fact that even today race sadly matters. I can't comment on others, when it came to who has been at fault in the whole issue of white/black relationships throughout our history, I'd go with 99% white (just because 100% is just too, forgive the pun, black and white, for my taste...we need some wiggle room).

That said, not all whites you will encounter are racists and I'd be damned surprised if most of them were. Happily from what I have seen in the African-American community, that chip on the shoulder, you are racist attitudes are not the prevalant ones.

If you really want to get technical with race you'd know that armour square is actually mostly asian.

What gimmicks? Structural additions to the ballpark are considered gimmicks to you? Where do you draw the line then? Are brand new stadiums 'gimmicky'? Besides, please find where I said US Cellular Field is a "great stadium." I never said that.

"Vast majority" means that most people will disagree with you. Thats not too hard to understand. If you dont understand that than please send me a pm and I will attempt to dumb it down for you.

Last but not least, numerous question marks means your statement is dumber than usual and you need to elaborate. Thanks.

Did I ask you to define "vast majority"?

Did I say you said Comiskular is a great stadium?

Does "Joe replicated the Soldier Field window pattern" require further elaboration?

The answer to all of these is NO. To the "vast majorty" of people, at least.

Anyway, since your contribution to this discussion seems to be quickly degenerating into name calling, I've got a suggestion: start a new thread.

Call it "Why the Sox are great, the Cubs Suck, and anybody who doesn't agree is an idiot".

And don't forget to take Mr. Bridgeport with you!

i always thought of the new and old Comisky being Bridgeport and never gave a thought to race because of it. Especially when it appears the truly expanding race in the area isn't white but Asian anyway.

I hope Chicago will become a place where whites, blacks, Hispanics, and Asians (along with all others) will feel thoroughly at home and be treated with the same dignity, respect, and opportunity that all people deserve. Race is an issue that we all need to get behind us.

So if you are ignorant enough or have enough of a chip on your shoulder because somebody fucking saw where one neighborhood is separated from another, then that is your problem and not either cbotnyse's or mine.

Seems to me that you have introduced the racial card here, not cbotnyse and you are the one who has shown prejudice and not him.

Most intelligent white Chicagoans (and white Americans) know that black Americans have gotten an absolutely shitty deal in the US...from slavery, to Jim, to the civil rights era, to the fact that even today race sadly matters. I can't comment on others, when it came to who has been at fault in the whole issue of white/black relationships throughout our history, I'd go with 99% white (just because 100% is just too, forgive the pun, black and white, for my taste...we need some wiggle room).

That said, not all whites you will encounter are racists and I'd be damned surprised if most of them were. Happily from what I have seen in the African-American community, that chip on the shoulder, you are racist attitudes are not the prevalant ones.

Dude: You are talking to a ex-Cicero boy. Hell, I could write volumes about the racist attitudes I've run into over the years. I am VERY sensitive to this, which is why I am so in-the-face of anti-gentrificationers when they go through their intellectual contortions to justify what ultimately boils down to the exact same crap I used to hear in Cicero.

It was not my intention to start a discussion about race, or to single out Bridgeporters for criticism. There are far too many other neighborhoods and places that have or had this problem for that.

I am simply addressing the claim, that I consider false, that the African-American neighborhood that Comiskey Park sits in is "part" of Bridgeport, and pointing out the racial acrimony that has existed historically between that area and Bridgeport proper as evidence that they are not. I would also add that I myself, PERSONALLY was once told to "get the fuck out of our neighborhood" when I wandered into the black area.

If you or anyone else wants to deny this, fine. May your denial serve you well.

Dude, if you think something sucks and most people dont, you're going to get called out on it. Especially if you sound ignorant. I respect peoples opinions but judging by what most people say about the new roof, yours is far off base.

You started throwing the term "great" around, implying that I thought it is a "great" stadium. I dont think it is.

Joe's pattern is a bunch of X's. You made it sound like it was some elborate complex design. Its a bunch of X's.

FIND WHERE I CALLED ANYONE A NAME. I said your posts are dumb, which is true, but never said you were.

FIND WHERE I SAID ANYTHING CUBS VS. SOX.

Armour Square is a neighborhood only on paper. No one says "I'm from Armour Square". Shit, even the "Square" isn't called that in the neighborhood, it's called "Armour Park". And the reality of the situation- no what's on paper- is that it's in Bridgeport. I grew on 33rd and Lowe, take my word for this.

As far as where this originally stemmed from- saying people from the east of the viaduct and the west of the viaduct were somehow different- keep in mind Lenard Clark got jumped in this "Armour Square" neighborhood, and DeSantis and at least most of his crew were from "Bridgeport" proper. It's the same people on each side of the tracks, guys.

You are the first person I've EVER met that considers the black neighborhood that New Comiskey sits on to be "Bridgeport". I really admire your progressive and inclusive racial attitudes. I know that is atypical in that part of the world, so I hope your entire extended family feels the same way.It is obvious you have either never been to Bridgeport or never met someone from there, or both. And I have no idea why you're bringing race into any of this. It was no relevance on the topic whatsoever. you have issues.

You are the first person I've EVER met that considers the black neighborhood that New Comiskey sits on to be "Bridgeport". I really admire your progressive and inclusive racial attitudes. I know that is atypical in that part of the world, so I hope your entire extended family feels the same way.

Your the first person I have ever met that has said the stadium wasn't in Bridgeport

As far as where this originally stemmed from- saying people from the east of the viaduct and the west of the viaduct were somehow different- keep in mind Lenard Clark got jumped in this "Armour Square" neighborhood, and DeSantis and at least most of his crew were from "Bridgeport" proper. It's the same people on each side of the tracks, guys.

The people on one side are black, and white on the other. That used to be huge. If its not that big a deal anymore, that is a very good thing.

It is obvious you have either never been to Bridgeport or never met someone from there, or both. And I have no idea why you're bringing race into any of this. It was no relevance on the topic whatsoever. you have issues.

You are so right! I've NEVER been to a Sox game, NEVER been to Bridgeport, and those 11th Warders I used to work with at the Park District were lying when they told me that corner of the world was <African country of your choice> and had nothing to do with their neighborhood.

Heck, they probably weren't REAL 11th warders, either. Like me, they were imposters who never set foot in the place and I'll bet those guys were just pretending to work elections, too!

No, kid, I NEVER had lunch at the old Connies on 26th, and I never had ribs at the Hickory Pit, either. I didn't REALLY work on the Orange Line, just like I didn't really work on New Comiskey Park.

I made it all up. Just like I'm making up the fact that I walked my dog through the north end of Bridgeport just last week.

Now that your brilliance has exposed me for the phony I am, its time for this thread to end.

how about instead of trying to make a ridiculous argument that the Cell is not in Bridgeport and bringing up race for no reason, you actually try to stay on topic on the stadium. You have not had a response to a single point I have made. But keep talking, your logic continues to blow me away.

how about instead of trying to make a ridiculous argument that the Cell is not in Bridgeport and bringing up race for no reason, you actually try to stay on topic on the stadium. You have not had a response to a single point I have made. But keep talking, your logic continues to blow me away.

He wont respond after he's proven wrong. I've already tried.

Clearly you don't know that New Comiskey Park is in Armour Square, not Bridgeport, and that an African-American neighborhood was leveled to build it.

Does that matter to you? Probably not. Its next to Brdigeport, and that's close enough, right? But with the amount of racial acrimony that has existed historically between those two neighborhoods, it is REALLY a stretch to say they are the same 'hood.

i'm speechless. :ohno: I have been posting on message boards for a long time and I have never come across someone who is as ill informed as you.

do you honestly believe the shit that comes out of your ass? I mean mouth.

You are so right! I've NEVER been to a Sox game, NEVER been to Bridgeport, and those 11th Warders I used to work with at the Park District were lying when they told me that corner of the world was <African country of your choice> and had nothing to do with their neighborhood.

Heck, they probably weren't REAL 11th warders, either. Like me, they were imposters who never set foot in the place and I'll bet those guys were just pretending to work elections, too!

No, kid, I NEVER had lunch at the old Connies on 26th, and I never had ribs at the Hickory Pit, either. I didn't REALLY work on the Orange Line, just like I didn't really work on New Comiskey Park.

I made it all up. Just like I'm making up the fact that I walked my dog through the north end of Bridgeport just last week.

Now that your brilliance has exposed me for the phony I am, its time for this thread to end.

wrong. its time for you to leave this thread. it would be nice to have discussions with people who like to talk chicago baseball and chicago ballparks. take a fucking hike and let the adults talk.

Your the first person I have ever met that has said the stadium wasn't in Bridgeport

perhaps we should take Free Radical to a Cub game in Edgewater.

i'm speechless. :ohno: I have been posting on message boards for a long time and I have never come across someone who is as ill informed as you.

do you honestly believe the shit that comes out of your ass? I mean mouth.

continuing a wonderful albeit recent tradition, wouldn't that make Free Radical fantastic as the next president of the US?

I saw that last nights game vs. Toronto was a Cell-Out, isnt it amazing what a World Series does for an organization? Pre 2005 a bad sox team like the one we see this year would never get a sell out (unless they were playing the cubs) heck, they would probably only avg. 19k people a game. This year the White Sox avg. 33k per game.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance


I think Sox fans have spoken, and they dont care what the stadium looks like, just win us a damn title!

I think Sox fans have spoken, and they dont care what the stadium looks like, just win us a damn title!amen to that! (actually you meant to say, another title!) I'm actually going to the game today. Got second row behind the batters box! should be a great day for a game.

^^

Ill be there too, season tix Section 138 :cheers:

I think Sox fans have spoken, and they dont care what the stadium looks like, just win us a damn title!

prelude, you have just described the next MLB trend: enough with the ball parks already; let's focus on the game.

the majority of the new parks are far worse than the Cell in presenting a carnival atmosphere where baseball is a diversion during the festivities. Look at Comerica in Detroit; there is so much going on in that place, somebody might forget there is a baseball game going on.

The retroparks sure did retro the Wrigley and Fenway concept that ball parks are for ball games. My sense is the ooooo's and awwwwwww's are going to disappear soon on all this emphasis on ball park over ball ame.

The people on one side are black, and white on the other. That used to be huge. If its not that big a deal anymore, that is a very good thing.


At 32nd and Shields, you're not gonna see any black homeowners. It's Irish, Italian, or Chinese. Maybe a Pole here or there. Same for 30th and Princeton, et al.

At 32nd and Shields, you're not gonna see any black homeowners. It's Irish, Italian, or Chinese. Maybe a Pole here or there. Same for 30th and Princeton, et al.

Lucas, that's so silly and so ridiculous. They got rid of the Pole obstructions that used to block the old Comiskey when they built the new park.:banana: