450,000 square feet of offices seekto tap current market demand downtown

TAMPA -- The city's first new downtown office building in nearly two decades is expected to open by 2010 on a Channel District site that was planned for residential condominium development just two years ago.

Trammell Crow Co., the development arm of CB Richard Ellis Group Inc., intends to break ground next spring on the 20-story, green-glass structure -- to be called Prime Meridian Center -- on the northwest corner of Meridian Avenue and Channelside Drive.

http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2007/07/23/story1.html

There is a rendering on the cover of the Biz Journal - if anyone wants to get it, scan and post it

I really think the building should be higher than 20 stories in that location...

The O2 site... A midrise tower in the channel area, nice...

Michael -- I don't think you could get more height in that location with thanks to the Harbour Island residents complaining about not being able to get off the island. Remember density is what killed Downtown Channelside/Blu and basically was located at the southeast corner of that intersection.

I'm alright with a 20 story tower for that sight as long as it is dense enough of a site layout and we eventually get taller (600'+) towers farther North on Meridian.

Here is the image of the tower: http://www.gost.biz/tampaurban/images/towers/cs_office_tower.jpg

Source: bizjournals.com

I read about this friday, but forgot to post about it this weekend... I'm very glad to see some jobs FINALLY being created downtown, but the site plan is weak imo. This isn't some suburban office tower, this is going downtown. Hopefully the city will not allow so much prime DT land to be wasted on such a relatively small project.

Kind of boxy and plain looking. Might of looked better as a 30-40 story tower.

Kind of boxy and plain looking. Might of looked better as a 30-40 story tower.

Like I said above though, FF, you probably wouldn't get approval (or would be fought) if you tried to get a larger building on that location.

Regardless of the tower and the tower size, if this gets built the winner isn't the tennants and what not. It's Newks next door. Finally they will have a steady flow of customers all day instead of just around events at the Forum. ;)

I'm hoping this gets built...but with at least 35 stories. I agree with Jason, that we shouldn't let them waste a valuable spot on a project like this.

I'm just glad to see something built there. We need to start filling in the space between downtown and Channelside. I don't think it looks that bad either.

Well with a 20 story tower there is only but so imaginable you can get with a design I suppose. Not just because of its size but because of the decreased $$$ involved.

Even at 20 stories, it might be a 300-footer.

well thats good we want downtown to be built out this is a good filler project.

Even at 20 stories, it might be a 300-footer.

Most office buildings don't have 15 foot ceilings.

260-300 - that's ok.

My biggest problem is with the parking garage. It seems more logical to put it under the main part of the building and save the space, but, given that the city wants "point towers" they might like it this way. IF we are stuck with it that way, I only hope they force retail on the graound floor with covered sidewalks.

I'm hoping this gets built...but with at least 35 stories. I agree with Jason, that we shouldn't let them waste a valuable spot on a project like this.
Note that I'm not referring to height, but overall site density.

The FAA won't allow anything over like 275ft (or some very similar number) on that site... But to me, that doesn't mean allowing a myopic developer to come in a and drop a cheap box and prefab parking structure on the site. I would rather the site sit vacant until someone willing to develop the property to its maximum potential comes along.

260-300 - that's ok.

My biggest problem is with the parking garage. It seems more logical to put it under the main part of the building and save the space, but, given that the city wants "point towers" they might like it this way. IF we are stuck with it that way, I only hope they force retail on the graound floor with covered sidewalks.

I was thinking the same thing about this. 02 if I recall, had about 5 acres. If the whole garage was under it, it might make space for another buiding. On a key note though...Now we have another garage for parking during Hockey games.

^ Agreed. I also do not like the parking stuck behind the building. Why not build something nice looking on top of the garage too.

I'm kind of surprised there isn't a second office/hotel tower on top of the parking garage.

Anyway, just for clarification, is this project taking up the whole former O2 site or just the corner of Meridian and Channelside? Or does anybody know?

Having an office tower in Channelside is nice, but I would've rather had a 400'+ over by Franklin Street or in Northern Channelside around the Finergy site.

^I would rather have it along the trolley line.

The way the article is written implies the entire O2 site is being consumed by this office building.

^I would rather have it along the trolley line.

Well eventualy, something will be built on that spot. I would almost rather have a development that uses the land to the maximum density on the trolley line if anyhting, more so then something that isn't as dense. :)

Most office buildings don't have 15 foot ceilings.

That used to be the case. Nowadays, they frequently have 15 foot ceilings, if not more.

^And some towers are going so far as to have significant plenum spaces between floors, like in hospital design. 14-15ft a floor is definitely common in new Class A office towers...

Hate to sound like a broken record, but I too would like a better use of the land in terms of density. I'm sure that the City will see it the same way as this is prime land in Tampa's most urban environment... it'd be wasteful to allow a garage up like this.

^Well, the city itself dumbly built the Channelside garage in a sprawling, streetscape killing manner.

On the flip side of our position, I suspect that some may view it as hypocritical to bitch about this project's poor design when city parking projects throughout downtown are easily as bad or worse.

^Well, the city itself dumbly built the Channelside garage in a sprawling, streetscape killing manner.

On the flip side of our position, I suspect that some may view it as hypocritical to bitch about this project's poor design when city parking projects throughout downtown are easily as bad or worse.

I considered that... but that was long before the proposals that would radically change Channelside were realized, was it not? And one error does not validate another. I'm also less concerned with the City lots on the adjacent side of the Crosstown in the CBD because land on that side isn't nearly as limited. What available land there is in the area naturally defined by the Crosstown as the Channel District needs to be developed much more carefully.

I'm not defending the City's current or past actions, but let's be realistic - here and now, it's essential that this plot be developed carefully.

Retail along the street level is a must; hopefully, liner office or hotel units will be incorporated; ideally, a new design featuring more mixed use, higher density space will be proprosed.

Post tensioned slab, 295'

^I wonder if the FAA has reviewed the plans? IIRC, they knocked O2 down to 244ft or something, didn't they?

Not sure about O2, but I imagine this one to be a stretch. We set the floor heights on this tower at 14'9". Whether the counts stick will be another story.

They reran this article in the TBT weekend edition, so it would seem that the project is gaining some steam. While some what lackluster in design and stature I think that overall it could be a nice addition to Channelside, though in all reality I think that I would rather see new commercial construction downtown where existing business infrastructure already is.

^^^ I second that.

I saw the blurb in TBT and then found the full article in the SP Times. Looks like this guy is serious and I think it's going to happen.

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/08/03/Business/His_urban_vision_is_a.shtml

His urban vision is a tall order

Feel cramped by urban offices? Disenchanted by the suburbs? Just wait till 2010.

By JAMES THORNER Times Staff Writer
Published August 3, 2007

For all of the muscle of its jutting skyline, downtown Tampa is burdened with a higher percentage of vacant offices than almost anywhere in the region.

Thanks mostly to competition from the Westshore business district and office parks on Interstate 75, about 17 percent of the city center's top quality offices go begging.

So how's an enterprising developer to earn a buck in that surplus-laden market? If you're Bob Abberger, head of development at Trammell Crow Co., you start fresh a half-mile away in an area known as an entertainment district and cruise ship destination.

By 2010, Trammell wants to open Prime Meridian Center, 20 stories of green glass at Meridian Avenue and Channelside Drive, across from the St. Pete Times Forum.

It's been 15 years since anyone stuck a new office tower in the ground in Tampa's central business district. And at 450,000 square feet, the tower would rank among the top 10 in size on both sides of the bay.

Abberger's $150-million project aims to avoid the faults of urban offices relative to their suburban cousins: poor accessibility, limited or expensive parking and tight floor plans.

Trammell Crow has nailed down an undeveloped 2 1/2-acre lot on Meridian Avenue, newly refurbished as a six-lane boulevard that Abberger dubs "the new Main Street" of Tampa.

For ease of access to the suburbs of central Pasco and southeast Hillsborough counties, the building would sit at the foot of the Lee Roy Selmon Crosstown Expressway. A TECO Streetcar station is across the street.

"If you look at downtown they are for the most part the last generation of buildings," Abberger says. "We're offering all of the attributes of a suburban building and all the attributes of a central business district."

Trammell also is tapping into a growing disenchantment with the suburbs that's encouraging the redevelopment of peer cities like Atlanta, Jacksonville, Charlotte and Raleigh-Durham. The intent is to create mini-Manhattans that accommodate offices, retail, restaurants and condominiums in one compact core.

Channelside has enjoyed a head start. The onetime warehouse district that served the Port of Tampa is blossoming with dining, entertainment and hundreds of condominiums.

"In the long term it's going to be a great project. It's all about timing," said Tom Kennedy, a commercial real estate broker with rival Grubb & Ellis. "I think livable downtowns are very much the future."

Site selection consultant John Rhodes with Bradenton's Moran, Stahl & Boyer LLC notes that companies relocating to Tampa often seek out suburban office parks because that's where many of their mid-level employees want to live.

But what if many of your employees are 20- and 30-somethings turned off by kiddie soccer leagues and sticky commutes?

"Maybe this guy isn't crazy," Rhodes said of Abberger. "There's still a yearning for urban living. Regions are striving for more balanced growth between the suburbs and downtowns. It isn't one or the other. You need both."

Eschewing what he calls "skinny towers built over parking garages," Abberger envisions Prime Meridian as a wide building with nearly double the individual floor space of the competition. An adjacent freestanding garage would offer four parking spaces per 1,000 square feet, quadruple what you normally find downtown. Trammell hopes to draw most of its tenants from companies relocating to Tampa.

"This isn't seeking to cannibalize existing tenancies," Abberger said. "It's trying to bring a new employment base to the area."

The project is clearly Abberger's baby. When talking about the building he'll say "she's a big girl" and "she's virtually on the water." Trammell had scouted the site for years and seized the opportunity when a planned condo tower, O2 at Pinnacle Place, fell through. City rezoning approval is expected this fall, followed by 22 months of construction.

As a former chairman of the Greater Tampa Chamber of Commerce's Committee of 100, Abberger has a reputation for getting projects off the ground.

For those who question the wisdom of plotting another office high-rise in the high-vacancy downtown market, Abberger points to the Marriott Waterside, the luxury hotel his company completed in 2000 despite a chorus of doubters. The 700-room hotel is the city's largest and made a mint for its developer.

"I've always been a contrarian," Abberger said. "I've never followed the herd, and it's always rewarded me."

Trammell Crow has nailed down an undeveloped 2 1/2-acre lot on Meridian Avenue
That's good news... It is just the O2 site. The density could and should be better, but it is what it is.

But other than that, the siting and massing seriously sucks and I actually hope it is denied as proposed. In its present form, the proposal simply is not in line with the vision neither the city nor its residents have for Channelside.

All the parking would be welcomed for events in downtown. I would like to see retail and food at the street level of the parking structures.

The massing is as much of a problem imo... If they approve this hulking slab, then the precedent is set for others to follow suit.

If I am not wrong, this is in the same lot as the one discussed at post 106 an following in the channelside thread.

Hope it gets denied.

The design doesn't work. Have him go back, rethink it a bit, and come back. It's too good of a site to be developed like this, even if having a seasoned developer put up a building sounds appetizing.

If I am not wrong, this is in the same lot as the one discussed at post 106 an following in the channelside thread.

It is the same lot, gstolze - much different concept.

Personally, I like the original project better, even though I was a bit of a hardass where the garage was concerned. I wasn't impressed with neither the layout, nor the color scheme. But I would rather see two mini towers as opposed to one tower.

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/710/l42od0.jpg

Herr gstoltz,
Wie lange bleibst du in Deutschland? Komest du gleich zurück?

I hope this one is denied. There at the very least should be something on top of that parking garage. I would say fill the site with 4-6 towers each at least 20 stories.

^^
I'm with you. This building looks awful...all of it.

You know, aside from all this dreaming - there are actual things that need to be taken into account - money being the first one. You can't jsut toss large buildings around. Moreover, since the point tower is the plan - they have a good argument for saying they are following that plan.

As I said, I am not sure about this building, but all the arguments advocating loading up the lot with crap will fly even less - especially for office. IF you want office in dt Tampa (at least any time soon) - this is how you are likely to get it.

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/710/l42od0.jpg
I thought this was the project that was supposed to be a hotel with residential attached. Or am I wrong.

I also want to point out that no one really knows what the plan is - the rendering in the biz journal hardly gave any detail.

You know, aside from all this dreaming - there are actual things that need to be taken into account - money being the first one. You can't jsut toss large buildings around. Moreover, since the point tower is the plan - they have a good argument for saying they are following that plan.

As I said, I am not sure about this building, but all the arguments advocating loading up the lot with crap will fly even less - especially for office. IF you want office in dt Tampa (at least any time soon) - this is how you are likely to get it.

I think that is a good point, often we forget that for the people footing the bill for production its not just a flight of fancy as to what they would like to see, so much as the product of what will be the most practical and profitable.

I think it could be a catalyst for more business space in the downtown core. It is not great but it is functional.

Very true, we have many such buildings here in Westshore and corporations go all googly at the prospect of leasing multiple floors. So, who knows it may well be a good stepping stone in a slowing market, aesthetics aside.

What gets me is that people get all excited for a 20 story condo box and say it is good filler but this - which adds a new use - is instantly panned before anyone has any real idea what it looks like or the layout (barring some inside info That has not been passed on)

I'm sure it won't be great, but the building that make the filler for St. PEte aren't very nice either.

I also want to point out that no one really knows what the plan is - the rendering in the biz journal hardly gave any detail.

Well, that sucks. Is it a hotel? Condo? Offices? WHAT?

Ummm... It's an office tower. By not knowing the plan is Smiley means site layout. Floorplans. Etc. All we know is the size and that its got more space than your average tower (not a skinny tower) and lots of parking (which is unfortunately not below the tower). Nothing else has been announced, such as retail slots.

Oh............Well, hopefully it will be used for something good. If its a success, maybe it will help spur more residents into moving to DT/Channelside area.

And, Trammell Crow being midly intelligent - hopefully they will build the garage so that you can put something on top of it should you decide to at a later date (unlike the good folks who build the Wachovia building, wasting one of the best lots downtown (in terms of preserve views) for a parking garage (and a bad one at that)

I've always wondered why they don't tear down the Wachovia parking garage and actually build something there. It is the worst use of space.

That thing looks real ugly to me...

I've always wondered why they don't tear down the Wachovia parking garage and actually build something there. It is the worst use of space.

Simple, $$$

Simple, $$$

Of course that's logical! Developers want to make $$$ no matter how shoddy the result is.

Well, of course it comes down to money, but at some point I would think it would be more cost effective to tear it down and build something in its place.

Especially if a moderate to major office boom happens in downtown soon, any developer that has built a stand-alone non dense parking garage will see their mistake.

Well, of course it comes down to money, but at some point I would think it would be more cost effective to tear it down and build something in its place.

There are plenty of open lots, such as the Maas Brothers/610 Franklin block. Down town is riddled with lots where buildings once stood that have been parking lots for decades, I would see developers swooping in on that long before a lot where there is more serious demo work.

What gets me is that people get all excited for a 20 story condo box and say it is good filler but this - which adds a new use - is instantly panned before anyone has any real idea what it looks like or the layout (barring some inside info That has not been passed on)

Not everyone here is basing their opinion on assumptions. ;)

I've seen enough to reach a simple and I suspect spot-on conclusion... TC is looking for a quick buck... They are going to build this, lease it to full occupancy and then sell it, before flaws in their cheap, rushed project are exposed over time. However, the community, nor its residents are going anywhere... Hopefully, the city will get it right for a change.

Well, I am more cynical than you - everyone is looking for a quick buck. I don't care about that. I still haven't seen the layout or the full plan so, while I suspect it will be not so good, I am not going to say I know it will be not so good. Anyway, as far as I am concerned, if it is a tower with parking garage and street retail along most of both elements, that would be like the Place with a point tower - though maybe a little less artful.

I do not agree that all developers look to build their project, lease it and then quickly sell it. I feel there is a distinct difference between a developer doing that, and one that is going to build and hold. And it is logical to expect a difference in the level of commitment to developing a quality project between the two. One is basing their numbers on a rising office market in the here and now, the other is thinking about making sure their project is as profitable 20 years from now as it is today.

I do not agree that all developers look to build their project, lease it and then quickly sell it. I feel there is a distinct difference between a developer doing that, and one that is going to build and hold. And it is logical to expect a difference in the level of commitment to developing a quality project between the two. One is basing their numbers on a rising office market in the here and now, the other is thinking about making sure their project is as profitable 20 years from now as it is today.

I like the idea of developers looking at the long-term...

The shareholders don't . . .

The shareholders don't . . .

In my view, shareholders only care about making lots of $$$$$.

In my view, shareholders only care about making lots of $$$$$.

Uh, duh? :lol: ;)

That is a new concept to me. Today I also learned that the sky is blue.

Anyways, I am quite interested to see how this development is going to progress.

That is a new concept to me. Today I also learned that the sky is blue.

Haha, quality.

New article and larger rendering from the downtown partnership.

New Office Tower Planned
By: Gary Shepherd

http://www.tampasdowntown.com/Editor/assets/intown%20tampa%20images/prime%20meridian%20center.jpg

A new office tower slated downtown will be the first such construction since the early 1990s. And when ground is broken for the 445,000-square-foot, green-glass Prime Meridian Center, it will be because Bob Abberger thinks differently from most developers.


Abberger – Trammell Crow Co.’s Tampa-based managing director of Florida development services – pays attention to the market. “I’m a student of market cycles and trends,” says the past chairman of the Greater Tampa Chamber of Commerce Committee of 100.



But also, he says, “I’ve often followed a contrarian path” – when common business wisdom says “zig,” Abberger says, he tends to “zag.” And that philosophy has paid off for Abberger. Perhaps his best-known work is downtown’s very successful Marriott Waterside hotel.



“That was a contrarian play,” says Abberger of the 717-room Marriott Waterside. “That project began a $1 billion development cycle. I believe Prime Meridian Center will launch development on the same scale.”



Prime Meridian Center will be a 19-story, $150 million building with an attached garage. It will be located on a 2.6-acre site at the northwest corner of Meridian Avenue and Channelside Drive. Planned to open by 2010, the office tower will have 28,000-square-feet floor plates, and the nine-floor, 1,800-space parking garage will offer four spaces per 1,000 square feet of office space – a luxurious ratio vs. most downtown office towers.



The developer will seek silver certification by the U.S. Green Building Council’s Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design (LEED) program; if awarded, it would be the first downtown office tower with such a certification. “The operating efficiencies and benefits of LEED silver certification will set a new standard for Class A office projects in the Tampa Bay market,” marketing material boasts.



The building will have a structural concrete frame with a cost effective skin made of a mix of high efficiency insulated vision green glass and architectural pre-cast concrete.



A stone’s throw east of the St. Pete Times Forum and across the street from the massive Channelside entertainment complex, the tower will rise where a condo tower was planned before the residential market went soft. The site is close to convention, hospitality, cruise ship and residential districts in the southeast quadrant of downtown. It is also very close to an entrance to the Lee Roy Selmon Crosstown Expressway, and the new tower will be directly adjacent to Tampa’s Historic Streetcar line.



The site is under deposit subject only to rezoning, says Abberger. City site plan and design review approvals should come in November, acquisition should be completed in December, and construction should begin next April, says Abberger.



Architect will be Hellmuth Obata + Kassabaum; the GC will be Beck Construction. Downtown’s last new office towers came in 1992, when three buildings opened. And, despite a 17 percent office vacancy rate downtown, the project will work, Abberger vows.



“Downtown is where tenants want to be if they have the right building,” he says. “I spent a lot of time searching for the right site, and I’m sure I found it.”



“When conceptualizing the new project, the idea was to deliver everything. And we’re going to do that.”

http://www.tampasdowntown.com/newsletter.aspx?newid=69

Don't know if I like a idea of an office building in Channelside, but the project looks okay. Looks like it is just across the street from Towers at Channelside.

Oh so fugly.

Oh so fugly.

Yep. Especially since it now appears the project has no retail and takes up a lot of prime land.

The tower portion would've looekd nicer if it was taller or on top of the garage at least, but this just looks stubby. I guess we can thank the FAA.

Yep. Especially since it now appears the project has no retail and takes up a lot of prime land.

The tower portion would've looekd nicer if it was taller or on top of the garage at least, but this just looks stubby. I guess we can thank the FAA.

Was it approved? I'd be shocked if the hyperactive Channelside Homeowners did nothing about this abomination. It's cheap, poorly planned, and dated.

Was it approved? I'd be shocked if the hyperactive Channelside Homeowners did nothing about this abomination. It's cheap, poorly planned, and dated.

To my knowledge it hasn't gone before the council yet. I wouldn't be surprised if peopel went crazy over it though because it's something new for the district and they don't know better that it's not a quality project and therefore should be rejected.

Hopefully we've got enough voacal AND smart people in Channelside to help keep this one from being built. ;)

Or at least have them go back to the drawing board and design a quality project with creative use of streetscape and height with maximum utilization of height restrictions. The building looks too much like the abomination that is the County Center.

kentski just posted in the Channelside Thread that there is a sign on the site that says that restaurants/retail will be included. Where will this retail be? Also, I don't care if this has retail, bad project and bad location.

Don't know if I like a idea of an office building in Channelside, but the project looks okay. Looks like it is just across the street from Towers at Channelside.
I think an office tower in Channelside is great, and that this building looks like crap and will not age well... I hope the people on HI like this hulking slab in their DT vista for the next 50+ years.

I think an office tower in Channelside is great, and that this building looks like crap and will not age well... I hope the people on HI like this hulking slab in their DT vista for the next 50+ years.

Actually that makes me think about something. If the people on H.I. helped to reject Blu, a project that was going to give them a grocery store, then I wonder what those people will think of traffic from an office building that won't have a grocery and will cause more traffic then Blu.

It would be a tragedy if that site was developed without street retail.

AND I still hate the folks at Harbour Island for nixing that supermarket.

Umm - it did not say there was no retail (as far as I could tell) and almost every office building has some retail - the question is where . . . and we have no idea.

I agree with Jason. The concept of an office tower in Channelside is a good thing; and as mobster pointed out, when I saw this rendering, the first thing that came to mind was a mini-me version of the County Center - although I actually like the C.C. tower. ;)

So... is the proposed site located where Pinnacle Place was initially proposed a few years ago? :dunno: Secondly, why not take advantage of the height allowed and build a taller tower? I think it would be far more attractive (as FF suggests) if it were taller and maybe I'm mistaken, but I think even the FAA would approve a taller structure as long as it falls shy of 400 ft. in that general location.

Gotta admit... I do appreciate the attempt to establish silver LEED certification. That's definitely a plus for the project.

I have to say that I actually do like the design, personally I have also ben a fan of the C.C. Tower. While this new tower may not be ground breaking in engineering, it is a nice, subtle tower that would fill a desperatly vacant area of town. I applaud them for attempting Silver LEED certification as well. Also, I think the green building would bring a nice change of color in the area.

I believe that it is also good for econmics to have an office tower in the channelside district; it will add people in the area in the daytime hours that will serve the restaurants well during lunch. To have an area that is nearly all residential and entertainment does not make a integrated DT community, just look at HI, that is a rather dense residential area that at one time had a mall, and it has contributed little to the development of the greater DT area. A good, lively community, is a varied combination of residential, office, and entertainment, that is the building blocks of a 24hr city neighborhood.

Also, if I am not mistaken, it is the first office tower that is right off of the TECO Line. Haveing it right off of the street car line is a major advantage for someone that might be working or visitingthere as they could truly park in a structure in Ybor and ride in; or, residents in Ybor and channelside could ride to it as well, not to mention the possibility of riding to Ybor for a quick lunch....

With all that said though, I do wish that the tower were on top of the garage and had some retail in the ground floor, but who is to say that it will not be added as the project moves forward, these things seem to change as the day goes on, so we shall see.

Steve

^ Good Points you bring up, that was my sentiments exactly as well..as much as Channelside is a residential district, Having 1 0r 2 office towers would not hurt the daytime business around the neighborhoods, and might even CREATE more of an interest in future residences as people who work there might grow accustomed to the area, or other company execs and employees from the tower who might be in to pay a visit to the office might actually like channelside.. It would also IMO help bring in more retail to the area as businesses might see a def. daytime sales potential , with the locals capping it off at night-time...Hopefully the tower will take everyones advice and realize the gains in the project itself by placing the tower on top of the garage, and leasing the retail spaces at the bottom...maybe sort of disguise the garage like that other project..(what is it grand central? drawing a blank here!)

Having an office tower in Channelside is nice, but I would've rather had a 400'+ over by Franklin Street or in Northern Channelside around the Finergy site.

^^ Agreed

I do agree with that statement, but why not both? Surely they are not mutual exclusive? IMO they would both be good places for office towers.

Steve

I do agree with that statement, but why not both? Surely they are not mutual exclusive? IMO they would both be good places for office towers.

Steve

Sure they'd both be fine for an office tower and could both exist, but this particular project isn't good enough quality for its location. It's a somewhat outdated tower design, (it'll end being slabbish) with little to no retail along Channelside and the layout isn't dense enough. The height is the only thing going for it and that's just because it is as tall as the FAA tops alows for that location. At around 300' this project would be pretty close to the Towers @ Channelside height. So as long as POK exist that's all we'll likely get at that location as far as height goes. :)

I just don't understand the shitty, lame design. Why go so cheap at a location so prominent?

Again, I would just as soon this lot stay vacant until someone is willing to put up a quality project. This isn't some filler at Jefferson and Whiting. This is Channelside and the terminus of Meridian. It's a very high visibility location, and needs to be treated as such.

^ Agreed. Its the "Gateway" of Tampa, and I don't think we should allow such a boring being to be put there.

I have to say, and I hope that I am not stepping on toes since I am a rather noob here..., that I happen to like the design, as I also like the CC building. While they are not flashy, they are subtle and, frankly, I like the green color that is planned. Is not design like or dislike merely perception? Personally, I like the edge on the side that is made by the front and back windows, I also like that there is another garage close to the TECO line that could easily be used by commuters, especially since this garage will have more space than most....

just my .02.

Steve

^^ Well put - and b.t.w., welcome aboard. ;)

Look, the fact is out of the dozens of projects proposed and approved already, the only tower currently under construction is Element. All those pretty, fancy, expensively designed towers' blueprints sit on a desk somewhere - most of which will probably never see a construction crane.

This proposal hasn't even gone before the city council yet and who really knows with any certainty that the current rendering is the final design they'll actually present? I wouldn't put it past the council that they raise the bar because, as some have correctly pointed out, this IS a prime location which almost begs for a quality project with silver LEED certification, even. But like you, Steve, I don't think it's really thaaat God awful. I mean come on... can ya say the Martin? Talk about painful. :lol:

Must say, I am always impressed with the passion many here have where quality seems the primary consideration. Maybe some of you should send the guy e-mail and express your opinion before the council meeting. Who knows, he might respect your passion just as much and actually listen to your advice. :grouphug:

Yeah it would be nice if every tower built in Tampa was a work of art, but that ain't going to happen. This one seems OK and I like the 'green' aspect of it. I'm hoping a lot of that empty space gets filled in someday and Tampa has a dense urban core with a vibrant DT. Weed covered parking lots aren't going to make that happen. Therefore I tend not to be overly critical of the proposed designs. Beggars can't be that choosy.

^We're not beggars. Tourism is a big part of our local economy, and increasing it downtown is a major goal for the city. Putting up rather poorly schemed buildings that are better suited to a suburban office park isn't going to help our image, which in turn isn't going to help tourism, or the general perception of downtown... The scale of the project is fine. The concept is great. Just alter the mass a bit and spiff up the look, and I would be ok with it... Oh, and it's on a major street corner, across from a trolley station... the entire facade fronting the street should be all retail (or lobby), period. There should be no driveway of any kind on Channelside.

I'm so depressed with the architects hired to do projects in downtown Tampa, this building is more suited for West Shore, but, atleast it doesn't have a huge parking lot and not an "island" building.
This looks absolutely stupid, We need stuff like detroit has, modern art-deco, since most of our art deco is gone.

http://www.gost.biz/tampaurban/images/towers/leedtower.jpg

By DAVE SIMANOFF, The Tampa Tribune

Published: December 12, 2007

TAMPA - In the architectural renderings, Prime Meridian Center is 20 stories of cool blue arched glass, banded with strips of precast concrete the color of sand.

It's not hard to imagine the building growing orange and pink in the late throes of a Florida sunset, or reflecting the violet and purple skies after a rainstorm.

But the most important color at Prime Meridian Center is the one you won't see in a sketch or on its facade.

That's the color green.

Prime Meridian Center, the first major new office building to rise in Tampa since 100 North Tampa opened in 1992, will follow the Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design standards established by the U.S. Green Building Council.

LEED promotes sustainability, conservation and environmental protection through smart design, an emphasis on reusable and recycled materials, and saving power and water through efficient heating, cooling, plumbing and lighting systems.

Trammell Crow Co., Prime Meridian Center's developer, has registered the office building's plans with the Green Building Council. Construction is expected to begin early next year.

The Green Building Council will only certify a building as LEED compliant once it is completed. Trammell Crow expects to finish Prime Meridian Center in January 2010.

Right now, only three buildings in the Tampa Bay area have LEED certification: the Happy Feet Plus shoe store in Clearwater, a community building in Dunedin and a small office building in St. Petersburg.

Decision Came As An 'Epiphany'

Veteran developer Robert Abberger is Trammell Crow's senior managing director in Florida. Ask him to explain his decision to pursue an environmentally sustainable, LEED-standard office building, and he will earnestly use terms like "epiphany" and "eye opening."

Abberger explained that clients in Orlando and Sarasota recently hired him to work on LEED-standard office and condominium projects, which helped him realize how important sustainable development is - and how much more efficient a LEED-certified building can be, when it comes to energy usage, than a traditional building.

Abberger also said about a year ago, Trammell Crow was purchased by commercial real estate giant CB Richard Ellis, which had made a massive commitment to sustainable development. As the two companies integrated, Abberger was tapped to join several task forces that worked on environmental issues, which deepened his commitment.

LEED-standard buildings "are not only healthier to be in, but also good stewards of our limited resources, and also have a positive impact on our community," he said.

Prime Meridian Center will cost about $150 million to build, or about $333 a square foot. Abberger said some of the building components - such as the more sophisticated power systems or plumbing fixtures - will cost more than they would have cost in a traditional building, but that investment in efficient infrastructure will save Trammell Crow money in operating costs.

The water and power bills for office buildings vary greatly, depending on how the structure was built, how old it is and how the tenants use the space. Abberger estimates that most of the major office buildings in downtown Tampa cost about $12 a square foot a year to operate, and Prime Meridian Center will "conservatively" cost $1 to $1.50 a square foot a year less.

Josh Bomstein, vice president of the Florida Gulf Coast chapter of the U.S. Green Building Council, said that Trammell Crow's example will show other developers that LEED standards and sustainable development have moved into the mainstream.

"Trammell Crow doing it says to me that it's the smart thing to do. It raises the bar in the industry," he said. "They are not in the business of spending foolishly on their construction dollars."

Bomstein, who is also vice president of business development for Clearwater-based Creative Contractors, said many tenants may start to start to seek out space in sustainable office buildings, just as many shoppers are looking for green options in supermarkets and malls.

"Green in general - whether you're talking about green buildings or green anything - is everywhere," he said. "You can't pick up a newspaper or magazine without seeing some green things. You have to be in a cave not to have been exposed to it."

Trammell Crow isn't the only office developer with green plans in the Tampa Bay area.

Crescent Resources intends to build its next two office buildings in the West Shore district to LEED standards. Rubenstein Partners has registered plans for a West Shore office park with the U.S. Green Building Council. Liberty Property Trust also has a LEED-standard building in the works for its Woodland Corporate Center, according to the building council listings.

Building Will Set Other Standards, Too

Abberger said he is not worried about competition from new office buildings in the suburbs. He said Prime Meridian Center will provide the comforts of new suburban office buildings - such as large floors that can accommodate a lot of employees efficiently - as well as a bevy of downtown amenities to keep workers happy, such as easy access to the Channelside Bay Plaza entertainment center, The Florida Aquarium and the St. Pete Times Forum.

Compared with a suburban office building, many of the existing downtown towers don't provide very big floors, forcing tenants to divide their staffs onto many levels, Abberger said. Also, many downtown buildings don't provide a lot of parking for tenants, whereas Prime Meridian Center's adjacent parking deck will provide tenants with about the same amount of spaces they would receive in a suburban lot, he said.

Trammell Crow expects rental rates to run about $30 a square foot a year, which is comparable with rates in the West Shore district, but about 30 percent higher than other downtown buildings.

Abberger said he thinks Prime Meridian Center will stand out from the competition because it's the only suburban-style building with a downtown address. And, he says, because it's only a matter of time because tenants and office workers won't want to work anywhere that's not green.

Abberger will be one of those tenants. Trammell Crow and its parent company, CB Richard Ellis, will consolidate all of their local operations in the new building.

Abberger couldn't be prouder.

"I have three amazing daughters, and of all the things I've done over the years that have changed the skyline, this was the first time I saw them get excited about what their dad was doing," he said.

Reporter Dave Simanoff can be reached at dsimanoff@tampatrib.com or (813) 259-7762.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/dec/12/bz-downtown-project-raises-standards/

So this got approved? Damn, I wish it didn't. Look at the render at the link and look at that garage. That is a big waste of land. I wouldn't had mind this if it was built on top of the garage, even though I believe thsi whole project doesn;t belong in Channelside, but having that much of land just for what it looks like a 7 floor parking garage is just stupid. And another thing is retail. It might be an office building, but Channelside is an entertainment district and this doesn't even qualify close to that. Maybe move this more down West.

I wonder if they will open up the garage at night for parking. At least for special events, it could come in handy.

I wouldn't mind an office building in west Channelside. YEah the parking garage thing is ridiculous, I agree. But to me, the overall plan isn't that bad. Neither is the design of the building itself.

I like how it contours meridan. Not many buildings in Tampa do that.
it is although, not a channelside style building, it'll look way out of place.

IF approved, it jsut shows how ridiculous the city council can be in approving this with a apparent lack of any street retail or shading but complain about everything in so many better projects.

IF approved, it jsut shows how ridiculous the city council can be in approving this with a apparent lack of any street retail or shading but complain about eventhing in so many better projects.

Yup.

(Another) mistake.

In 30 years, when the a developer purchases the building and plans on demolishing it for something better, perhaps the council will have clued in a bit more.

This was already approved wasn't it?

^Yeah, at the October 25th meeting... Once they mentioned that they had raised the LEED standard they are pursuing to Gold, most of the Council got randy. (this will be only the 2nd large office tower in the SE that is LEED Gold, the other one being built in Charlotte by BofA)

They did add some recessed retail along Meridian which is nice, but I'm mostly concerned with the lack of interaction on the Channelside side of the building. There will be a cafe on the corner of Meridian, and that's it...

They have their website up now:
http://primemeridiancenter.com/

There is not too much there now except for the date of January 2010 and then a PDF with the building in placed in the skyline.

I still like it and think it will look nice in the skyline, I especially like that it is along the TECO line. It is worthwhile to notice that they are playing up the fact that they are on the TECO line and using it as a sales point.

Steve

They have their website up now:
http://primemeridiancenter.com/

There is not too much there now except for the date of January 2010 and then a PDF with the building in placed in the skyline.

I still like it and think it will look nice in the skyline, I especially like that it is along the TECO line. It is worthwhile to notice that they are playing up the fact that they are on the TECO line and using it as a sales point.

Steve


Thanks for posting the site. Here is the picture:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o236/JordanA_015/SSC/Untitled4.jpg

That angle shows the gap between CBD and Channelside pretty well. It's all surface lots and 1-3 story buildings. Hopefully Prime will help start bridging the gap.

I hope it gets built, gotta start fillin those gaps inbetween downtown and Channelside.

Imagine if that empty area was full,... Tampa would have a fierce downtown.

^ Tampa would have an awesome downtown if all of that filled in. I'd like to see it jumping to 40-50-60-70 story towers... :)

^ Tampa would have an awesome downtown if all of that filled in. I'd like to see it jumping to 40-50-60-70 story towers... :)
As everyone else on here, but nothing above 50 will happen, not until Peter O'Knight is gone.

I know a lot of people do not like this but...
they added more information to their website.
including overview ,building...
http://www.primemeridiancenter.com

One of the rendering show there might be retail under the parking gargage...
http://www.primemeridiancenter.com

Not might, there is a "retail colonade" along with a restaurant and bank. And lots of bike racks. The restaurant space fronts Channelside Dr and has patio tables. Pretty cool all around.

http://www.primemeridiancenter.com/siteplan.html

That is great! Retail plus a bank and restaurant will help to pull a lot of people behind this project, the retail is a good use of the garage. I love the bike path and lots of bike parking, this type of ammenity will be ideal in the future DT area, IMHO.

Steve

Not bad....

I'd like to see retail on Merdian but it appears that the intention of that road is to act as a fast way in and out of Channelside by car. It just sort of isolates the Channelside district north of Cahnnelside Drive form the rest of downtown. Oh well, we'll eventually get projects on East side of this one anyway.

New renderings as well:

http://www.primemeridiancenter.com/images/northview.jpg

http://www.primemeridiancenter.com/images/northeastview.jpg

http://www.primemeridiancenter.com/images/southview.jpg

http://www.primemeridiancenter.com/images/southview_wc.jpg

And here is the site plan which the link was already posted too:
http://www.primemeridiancenter.com/images/first_floor.jpg

I actually have grown to like this building. At first I didn't really think it would fit into Channelside and another reason was I believed it lacked retail, but with this news, my opinion has change. I like that there is interaction with it, every project should have something to give. I also believe this will help the City realize we need to extend our trolley, connecting such buildings like Bank of America or Skypoint to Hooters or Splitsville and connecting Prime Meridian to Fly.

^It has grown on me too but...

As the 2 renderings from the north made me realize, I wish that the parking garage has the ability to eventually have more built on top of it, and/or at the VERY least be covered. Eventually, southern Channelside will densify, and it bothers me that an ugly garage could be there indefintley. That goes for the Channelside garage too.

^It has grown on me too but...

As the 2 renderings from the north made me realize, I wish that the parking garage has the ability to eventually have more built on top of it, and/or at the VERY least be covered. Eventually, southern Channelside will densify, and it bothers me that an ugly garage could be there indefintley. That goes for the Channelside garage too.
True, both garages need more fixing, espicially this one.

The renders look kinda off to me. The one with retail, it looks like the garage is shorter and missing a story. And also, are they really gonna allow parralel parking???

True, both garages need more fixing, espicially this one.

The renders look kinda off to me. The one with retail, it looks like the garage is shorter and missing a story. And also, are they really gonna allow parralel parking???

Nice catch, it does appear to be off a floor. Caeser Street is a side street so they may allow parallel parking for the retail.

Well hot damn... someone at the city needs a thank you letter.(probably Wilson Stair)

Yes, that is all nice - now why don't they rip up the useless train tracks so the retail can go on Meridian, where people actually go instead of some side road where the space will never be filled. As for the bank - of course there is a bank in the lobby - what is an office building without a bank - or a restaurant.

They should leave the tracks and use them to feed a future commuter line terminating in DT... I think such a thing would be a whole hell of a lot more effective if it could get down south of Kennedy, where it can catalyze development in the hellish gap between the Shops-Forum area of Channelside and the core, where most existing jobs are.

I had thought way back when the trolley was first coming about that the lot Prime Meridian Center (actually the whole former Pinnacle development) is proposed for would have been a great spot for a transit hub linking a future commuter rail line, the trolley and an extension of the Marion St busway in a structure linked to a large garage, including a bunch of office and hotel space above it, all wrapped with retail along Channelside and fronting the hub's plaza... I'm sure theres some good reason why this is impossible though, as I'm no expert.

^^It's merely half a block of tracks, and I don't think Conagra would let anything happen to the tracks! I agree that it would be useless to rip them out. It would be nice if the tracks could be used for transit as well, and would give more connectivity with the trolley!

^???

The tracks are tied to the CSX lines that run up out of DT to the NE... Also, Con Agra doesn't control the tracks, CSX does...

There is no reason the tracks should come all the way down - they can be a block off of Channelside for now.

The tracks will surely be ripped up in time. I'm just saying that it's too bad we weren't in an alternate universe. That corner would have been a good spot for an intermodal transit hub, as they call it.

^???

The tracks are tied to the CSX lines that run up out of DT to the NE... Also, Con Agra doesn't control the tracks, CSX does...
i know conagra doesn't control it, but they are the only industry left down there. either they still use the line or no one wants to pay to rip it up.

They get two shipments a week from what I understand.

^ I'm still not sure I know where ConAgra is located. Do they have visible signs up on the building? Also, why is something like that still located in that area? I can't believe somebody hasn't tried to buy that location.

They have the giant factory looking structure wedged in between Meridian and the Selmon, a couple blocks north of Channelside. With the giant silo looking things that clutter the skyline... I know you know this!

Oh okay yeah I know where that is. I don't know why but I keep getting it confused with those wearhouses that are closer to the ToC.

Thanks, 2 shipments a week isn't alot, but I guess it is still a steady stream.

Rising against the market
Construction hasn't yet started on a speculative $140 million, 19-story office building
Friday, June 13, 2008
Tampa Bay Business Journal - by Janet Leiser Staff Writer

TAMPA -- The first new office tower planned for downtown in nearly 20 years has been delayed by the softening real estate market and sluggish economy, but the developer of the 19-story project says it will built.

Trammell Crow Co., developer of Prime Meridian Center, hasn't yet obtained financing for the $140 million project or bought the site at the northwest corner of Meridian Avenue and Channelside Drive.

But issues in obtaining financing "is not indicative of the project not working or downtown Tampa not being ready," said Anne-Marie Ayers, the CB Richard Ellis Inc. broker in charge of leasing at Prime Meridian.

Rather it's related to the credit crunch that's affecting deals and projects around the country, she said.

When Trammell Crow, a division of CBRE, announced the 450,000-square-foot Prime Meridian last summer, it said construction on its signature building would start this past spring and the building would be complete by 2010.

Trammell Crow now expects to close on the land purchase late this year and begin construction in early 2009, pushing completion to the fourth quarter of 2010, said Bob Abberger, senior managing director in Florida.

Delays are not uncommon with large, commercial projects, said Ayers, first VP of brokerage services at CBRE.

Abberger said, "It's not really so much the issue of financing as it is making the right decision on when to launch."

The Tampa Bay commercial real estate market was strong last summer and the nationwide credit crunch hadn't yet hit when the gold Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design-certified project was announced.

Since then, local vacancy rates have been inching up with landlords increasingly offering concessions to entice new tenants.

But Abberger expects the commercial real estate market to be rebounding by late 2010 when Prime Meridian opens.

"You don't launch at the top of the market," Abberger said. "Those projects in trouble today launched at the top."

The downtown Tampa market, referred to as the central business district, has had a higher vacancy rate than the larger, more robust Westshore submarket to its west for years.

In the first three months of 2008, roughly 18.2 percent of the CBD's 6.4 million square feet was vacant, up from 16.6 percent a year earlier, according to Cushman & Wakefield of Florida.

But Abberger is banking on downtown's reemergence as the premier office spot in the Bay area.

"Westshore has been the easy bed for a long time and for good reason," Abberger said. "But our belief is that downtown, our site in particular, now makes it a superior bet."

Both CBRE and Trammell Crow will occupy the building, taking up about 40,000 square feet.

Abberger told the Tampa Bay Business Journal last year the building would create a stronger link between Tampa's central business district and the Channel District, where residential towers have been built over the last couple years.

"It's all about connectivity," Abberger said. "We are now in the burgeoning residential district of the city. It is the emerging second core."

Since then, though, several of the newer Channelside residential towers have become mired in financial problems as the condo market tanked.

Pessimism abounds
The buzz among commercial real estate brokers is that Prime Meridian won't get built -- at least not until the economy improves.

"With the slowdown in the activity for the commercial market, I would think it would probably be on hold," said Paula Buffa, senior director of office services at GVA Advantis in Tampa.

"What we're finding quite honestly is most companies are quite hesitant about making a long-term commitment right now," Buffa said.

Other developers, such as Highwoods Properties Inc., have delayed construction of previously planned projects until tenants commit to space in those buildings, although there are several speculative projects coming out of the ground in Westshore, such as MetWest International, Corporate Center Four and TriPointe Plaza.

Doug Bartley, senior VP at Jones Lang LaSalle, also questioned the timing of Prime Meridian. "The economy will not support a project of that magnitude in the foreseeable future," Bartley said.

Another longtime Tampa broker said there are some companies that will pay more to be in a new, environmentally sustainable building that offers more prestige than an older Class A building. But many companies will be reticent to pay Prime Meridian's higher rates that start at $32 a square foot, or about $8 more than the $23.45 asking rate at other downtown Class A buildings built nearly 20 years ago.

Ayers, however, points out that Prime Meridian's rate isn't that much higher when the additional discounted parking that will be offered is considered. The building will offer four spots for every 1,000 square feet of space, compared to the one spot for every 1,000 feet offered at most downtown buildings, she said.

And in late 2010, when the building is expected to be done, $32 a foot won't seem as high, Ayers said.

"We're offering an urban environment with a lot of options," she said. "After work, you can go to a hockey game across the street or to a concert. If you live on Harbour Island or Channelside, you can walk home.

"When you think about it, this makes sense."

jleiser@bizjournals.com | 813.342.2468

http://tampabay.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2008/06/16/focus2.html?page=2

^People shouldn't underestimate the value of what is mentioned in the last paragraph...

"We're offering an urban environment with a lot of options," she said. "After work, you can go to a hockey game across the street or to a concert. If you live on Harbour Island or Channelside, you can walk home.

"When you think about it, this makes sense."


I don't think that project will have the slightest trouble filling the building to a profitable occupancy level within 2 years of opening, maybe less. (this is because I hold the attitude that commercial tenants are increasingly going to look at the region's urban employment centers to locate their offices, with most suburban locations becoming less attractive than they are today)

Their proposed number of parking spaces is also very enticing!

Wow you mean a developer who's actually thinking about the urban fabric of Tampa? WHAT IS HAPPENING!? Oh yeah... Gas is $4.00 a gallon.

lol

I find it rather ironic that they are championing the idea of living close to your work while at the same time saying how great their parking situation is.....whatever, I still like this project and hope it gets built, it would be good for that area of DT.

Steve

^It's smart marketing in this leasing environment. LEED Gold, good location, huge floorplates, and parking ratios that rival any suburban office campus.(meaning employers can cram more people per leased sqft, relative to other DT buildings)...

Trust me, this building is going to fill right up, unless the local office market utterly collapses. The Class A stock DT is getting old, and this building essentially has no competitors.

What about Union Station Towers?

LOL... What about them?

Well won't that provide competition?

I believe that Union Station Towers is basically completely off....if I am not mistaken I think they are trying to sell the land. Basically it was a "get it zoned and sell" ploy...

Steve

:yes:

Oh I didn't know that.
Good thing cos that tower looked stupid

My offices are right across the street in Union Station and I can see the "for sale" sign from my window. They got the lot rezoned and put it up for sale. There is a picture of the proposed tower on the sign.

Partial article only. This is one of 4-5 projects in this weeks bizjournal where the focus is on projects starting in a down market. We get the sliver that doesn't say when the project is supposed to start...


Downtown Tampa site tapped for sustainable Prime Meridian Center
Friday, December 12, 2008
Tampa Bay Business Journal - by Janet Leiser Staff Writer

TAMPA — Trammell Crow Co. Senior Managing Director Bob Abberger is sticking to his vision: He believes there’s enough demand in the Tampa Bay area to support downtown’s first environmentally sustainable office tower.

And he has found what he contends is the best site for the 19-story Prime Meridian Center, the northwest corner of Meridian Avenue and Channelside Drive.

The building was designed by HOK, a St. Louis-based global architectural firm known as a leader in green design.

The office leasing market has changed greatly since early 2007 when Trammell Crow announced what would be downtown’s first office tower in nearly 20 years.

http://tampabay.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2008/12/15/focus2.html

Recieved a reply from Bob Abberger about the timeline for the project, kinda a bummer.....


Mike,

We love this project too, and remain committed to seeing it through. We'll be working on extending Cumberland in 09, probably delay launch until 2010, but she will set a new std for our City and the region.

I'm a big believer in Tampa, and the channel district ( I pioneered the Marriott)

Thanks for your support

Bob

It's expected though that construction would be pushed back with the office market the way it is right now. But it still shows that they are commited to the project and have interest in improving Channelside.

Anyone know if they started extending Cumberland?

Not that I'm aware of.

$300M downtown Tampa office, hotel complex proposed
(http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2011/08/18/300m-office-hotel-complex-proposed.html)

An ambitious multi-building, mixed-use development is being proposed for downtown Tampa.
The $300 million project includes a 450,000-square-foot office tower, 350-room luxury hotel and 1,200-space parking garage, said Bob Abberger, senior managing director of Trammell Crow Co. , which is behind the effort.

The proposal revives and expands the Prime Meridian Center that Abberger proposed in 2008 on property closer to the city’s Channel District.

If successful, the new project could kick start the languishing Tampa economy, which has seen some recent momentum in multifamily development and the University of South Florida ’s Center for Advanced Medical Learning and Simulation, or CAMLS, now under construction downtown.

“I’m betting on the momentum of CAMLS,” Abberger said. “This is a connection project between the downtown core and the convention and entertainment district.”
Abberger wants to build on four acres immediately east of the CAMLS project. The block is bound by East Whiting Street and the Crosstown Expressway and by South Florida Avenue and South Morgan Street.

At a minimum the proposed project, which does not yet have a name, would mean thousands of construction jobs.

“This will be a changing dynamic for downtown,” said Tampa Mayor Bob Buckhorn, who named Abberger to the Economic Competitiveness Committee currently trying to streamline city development regulations.

See the Aug. 19 print edition of the Tampa Bay Business Journal for more details.

Beat me to it!

I'm giving so much hope on this and I actually think it will happen. Like the article states, Abberger is on the Economic Competitive Committee. I don't Abberger would risk putting out this ambitious project for it never to happen, that might be a blow to Buckhorn and what he is doing.

Everyone, cross your finger!!!!! :)

20 story hotel/office tower planned for downtown Tampa
By Mark Puente, Times Staff Writer
Posted: Aug 18, 2011 03:03 PM

A 20-story, 450,000 square foot office tower/hotel is planned for downtown Tampa.

Stantec, a Tampa design firm, filed a zoning request this afternoon. It will go before City Council in December.

The proposed development abuts the University of South Florida's new $30 million Center for Advanced Medical Learning and Simulation. The medical training complex, scheduled to open in January, is the first piece of an expanded downtown presence for the university. The medical complex alone will attract enough out-of-town doctors to fill a 95 room hotel.

The land for the proposed tower is owned by Naples-based Colliers Enterprises. Currently, the property is used as a parking lot It is bordered by S Florida Avenue, E Brorein Street, S Morgan Street and E Whiting Street.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/realestate/20-story-hoteloffice-tower-planned-for-downtown-tampa/1186666

Will they ever learn? :ohno:

Another article. :)

Major office tower and hotel planned for downtown Tampa
By MICHAEL SASSO | The Tampa Tribune
Published: August 18, 2011

TAMPA --
Downtown Tampa will get its first major office tower in years if a developer can pull off his plan for a 20-story, energy-efficient office building and upscale hotel.

Bob Abberger, managing director of real estate firm Trammell Crow Co., expects to file a rezoning application with Tampa Friday for a new project tentatively called Southgate. The project would include the main office tower, an adjacent 350-room upscale hotel and a parking garage, Abberger said Thursday.

Trammell Crow will be taking a $250-million risk in a down economy. Vacancy rates downtown are around 20 percent right now, although they're lower at prestigious "Class A" office buildings, he said.

Plus, Abberger will have to find some tenants willing to lease space in advance, because investors who are backing the project will want Trammell Crow to have tenants lined up before starting construction.

But the company believes in downtown Tampa's long-term future, especially with a new mayor and the new ownership of the Tampa Bay Lightning, he said. He hopes to complete the hotel and office building some time in 2014.

"All things being equal, when you talk to most (corporate) users, they'd rather be downtown," he said.

The Southgate project would be bordered by Whiting, Morgan and Brorein streets and by Florida Avenue. It would be directly across from the University of South Florida's new Center for Advanced Medical Learning and Simulation, or CAMLS.

In fact, Trammell Crow is betting that the physicians who fly into Tampa to learn about the latest in medical technology at CAMLS will want to stay at the Southgate project's new hotel. He is looking for a hotel brand to partner with, he said.

At 20 stories, the project's tower won't be nearly as tall as some of downtown's other office buildings, which run up to 40 stories. However, its 450,000 square feet of space will be comparable to other downtown towers because of its wider base, or "footprint."

Southgate's tower would have a footprint of about 28,000 square feet, where most downtown towers have footprints of 18,000 to 20,000, Abberger said. Trammell Crow will seek a LEED certification for energy efficiency for the building, he said.

The office tower essentially is the same project that Trammell Crow wanted to build four years ago in Tampa's Channel District before the real estate market collapsed. However, the new location is closer to downtown's core urban area and should capitalize on its proximity to the Tampa Convention Center, he said.

Trammell Crow has a contract to buy the property from the landholding Collier family, for whom Collier County is named.

Larry Richey, senior managing director for the Cushman & Wakefield real estate firm in Tampa, said timing will be crucial for the project.

At the moment, downtown Tampa can't handle another office tower. But the location across from the future CAMLS research center is ideal, Richey said, and downtown eventually might need the extra office space.

The hotel seems less risky than the office tower, he said.

"Certainly given the expectations of the CAMLS project, the hotel portion of that plan would seem to make a lot of sense," Richey said.

http://www2.tbo.com/news/real-estate-news/2011/aug/18/1/major-office-tower-and-hotel-planned-for-downtown--ar-251362/

Another Tampa pipe dream? If it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is. Where is this $300 million coming from? Well if the office tower has 450K square feet, then it should be at least 30 stories? "Luxury" Hotel? In Tampa? What a joke. Sorry to be so negative, but I've seen so many "proposals" here (like this one) in the last 20 years that never go anywhere. I'm betting this will not happen. And if it does, it will be scaled down to a suburban mid-rise beige piece of shit.

Oops! I didn't see the newer articles yet. So it's 20 stories, not my estimated 30.

Actually, with all the bank shake ups and new players, I can see them getting some bank for a ground floor and top of the building sign tenant. Not sure about the rest. Actually, I kind of like the planning ahead and not waiting until we are in a boom. Tampa usually waits and then a lot of the projects fail when the downturn comes. It would sure change that corner

maybe TD Bank or PNC.

THe layout is a bit odd From http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2011/08/18/300m-office-hotel-complex-proposed.html?ed=2011-08-18&s=article_du&ana=e_du_pub:
http://assets.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/MAP-8-19-mark-4c.jpg
wonder what they plan for the empty corner

Actually, with all the bank shake ups and new players, I can see them getting some bank for a ground floor and top of the building sign tenant. Not sure about the rest. Actually, I kind of like the planning ahead and not waiting until we are in a boom. Tampa usually waits and then a lot of the projects fail when the downturn comes. It would sure change that corner

That's what I was going to bring up next. The Regions building on Ashley was a good example of that. It was almost empty right after it opened. This could be a good time to build this new project while the economy is still bad or emerging & by 2014 the office & hotel market could be a lot better. Also Trammel Crow may have the "CASH" to do this, not like SimDag digging for two years for a loan. But I'm still doubtful.

The layout is a bit odd. wonder what they plan for the empty corner

I would assume nothing as that land is not owned by Collier. It's owned by a holding company called Nale Developments.

Agreed on getting this going before the hopeful recovery starts going.

This brings up something else, more empty land on/near the ConAgra site. What could this deal mean for a possible Rays stadium?

THe layout is a bit odd From http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2011/08/18/300m-office-hotel-complex-proposed.html?ed=2011-08-18&s=article_du&ana=e_du_pub:
http://assets.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/MAP-8-19-mark-4c.jpg
If the city needed money, should had just sold off the property there and allowed the developer knocked down that garage. 1,200 would be plenty for that area and the developer would had likely added more parking with that extra land to work with.

I hope they develop this where any developer who buys the city property isn't left with building some 2-story building because anything taller would look bad next to this 20-story project.

Not much of a rendering, but this is from the bizjournal website: http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/print-edition/2011/08/19/new-development-may-spring-hope-in.html

http://assets.bizjournals.com/tampabay/print-edition/ROP_NewBuild_Collier-Scene1-.jpg

It will look pretty much the same from ground level. Gotta love Tampa style urban planning... or should I say the lack therof? lol

Looking at the DT Tampa interactive map, it shows Bell Street running through the middle of that block (east & west). I wonder if it would be ripped out or what.

It will look pretty much the same from ground level. Gotta love Tampa style urban planning... or should I say the lack therof? lol

We can keep checking Trammel Crow's website. Hopefully sooner rather than later they will have a better render. I have a feeling they could be glass-dominated towers. Also, the two buildings could give somewhat of a canyon effect to the Crosstown.

It will look pretty much the same from ground level. Gotta love Tampa style urban planning... or should I say the lack therof? lol

What would you have done?

You can't tell much from the render though. The space between the two towers puzzles me though. They can't do a street between there because they have the parking garage to deal with. A plaza would make more sense, but not much. I really hope they put out more detailed renders out before it goes before the city council for me to review and put some more input on it.

You can't tell much from the render though. The space between the two towers puzzles me though. They can't do a street between there because they have the parking garage to deal with. A plaza would make more sense, but not much. I really hope they put out more detailed renders out before it goes before the city council for me to review and put some more input on it.

The palm trees on the map make it pretty obvious that it's a plaza.

Looking at the rendering above, it seems that the office tower and parking garage (to the right in the rendering) are just the Prime Meridian project plopped onto this site, with a hotel added to the left (west) in the rendering.
The earlier article did say they were reviving and expanding the old Prime Meridian project.

Looking at the rendering above, it seems that the office tower and parking garage (to the right in the rendering) are just the Prime Meridian project plopped onto this site, with a hotel added to the left (west) in the rendering.
The earlier article did say they were reviving and expanding the old Prime Meridian project.

So that means glass glass glass.

Looking at the rendering above, it seems that the office tower and parking garage (to the right in the rendering) are just the Prime Meridian project plopped onto this site, with a hotel added to the left (west) in the rendering.
The earlier article did say they were reviving and expanding the old Prime Meridian project.
Another context-specific project. Gotta love it...

The palm trees on the map make it pretty obvious that it's a plaza.
Well yes, I guess it does. And thinking about it more, it sounds pretty stupid. Because if they don't plan on buying either the southwest parcel or the city property with the garage, I can't see the point of the plaza.

I don't understand why this can't be just one solid building or at least all on the north side of Bell St. Hotel located where it is, place the office tower on top of the garage, and have a small plaza separating the office tower and hotel. Turn Bell St. into a wide sidewalk and make the empty parcel a park until something else can be built on this. I agree with Jason, the urban planning on this sucks. As it is now, it kind of limits what can be built on the remaining parcels. And I highly doubt the owners won't have a problem on whatever is proposed for those parcels once someone has an idea for them. I can see already some 30 story project being proposed for the southwest parcel and getting a fuss how too tall the tower is or how it ruins the use of the plaza.

What would you have done?

Something site specific would be nice. If Iget the time this weekend I'll do a similar mass model so you can see what I would start with as a concept.

Something site specific would be nice. If Iget the time this weekend I'll do a similar mass model so you can see what I would start with as a concept.

That would be great to see.

frankly, given the shape of their lot and what they were trying to put on it, it's not that bad - the office building is a bit isolated, but so be it. The real question is what is street connection. It will be interesting to see if someone wants to build on the blocked in corner, too.

I emailed Trammel Crow. No reply. Still nothing on their "current projects" of this proposal.

I emailed Trammel Crow. No reply. Still nothing on their "current projects" of this proposal.
There probably won't be anything up until November or December, since approval is in December for this.

There probably won't be anything up until November or December, since approval is in December for this.

They may already have something but they're not putting it out there yet.

Downtown Tampa project wins preliminary rezoning approval
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Premium content from Tampa Bay Business Journal by Mark Holan, Staff Writer
Date: Friday, November 18, 2011, 6:00am EST..

Related:
Commercial Real Estate, Downtown, Construction.
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View photo gallery (3 photos)



Courtesy of Trammell Crow Co.

Proposed 450,000-square-foot office building and garage
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Mark HolanStaff Writer - Tampa Bay Business JournalEmail | LinkedIn
TAMPA — An ambitious, multi-building development near the Tampa Convention Center .. has received preliminary rezoning approval from the Tampa City Council .. .

The project proposed by Bob Abberger, senior managing director of Trammell Crow Co .. ., includes a 450,000-square-foot office tower, a 350-room hotel and a 1,200-space parking garage.

If developed, the $188 million project would mean short-term construction jobs and more permanent employment ranging from high-income positions with companies attracted to a modern office building to service-sector jobs.

The project also would provide a critical link between the downtown core and the convention center and entertainment district at its southern edge, as well as the neighboring Center for Advanced Medical Learning and Simulation, or CAMLS, the University of South Florida .. project under construction and due to open in the spring.

The council approved rezoning Abberger’s 4.12-acre development site to allow construction of up to 400 feet high in an area currently limited to 120 feet.

“This is a big project, but it will put Tampa back in the path of development,” Abberger told the council Nov. 10. “This is the type of project corporate America wants to see.”

Broad support

The council approved the rezoning without asking any substantive questions. There also was no opposition to the rezoning from the public. One member of the carpenters’ union local spoke in favor of the project.

The council’s second vote on the rezoning is scheduled for Dec. 1.

In addition to increasing building height, the proposed rezoning allows Abberger to remove a grand tree from the site, eliminates an 8-foot vehicle buffer for valet parking and reduces the required number of loading berths to two from five.

Abberger said he is talking with potential hotel companies, which would determine most design requirements of that building.

He estimated the entire project would generate about 960 direct jobs in several phases and nearly 1,800 direct permanent jobs. Once complete, which could take four or five years, the project would pay more than $4 million in annual real estate taxes.

Local representatives of architecture firm HOK, design firm WilsonMiller Stantec, engineering firm Tindale-Oliver & Associates .. and law firm Squire Sanders .. are helping with the project.

Abberger serves on Mayor Bob Buckhorn’s Economic Competitiveness Committee, which is close to issuing its recommendations on how to streamline development regulations.

So what is the new height?

So what is the new height?

My guess is the office tower would be pretty tall since it has 450,000 sq. feet and has to share that same block with a hotel and separate parking garage. There is nothing on Trammel Crow's site yet for anything in Tampa. They did not email me back.

Read over the transcript from the meeting. Building will be 400 ft. and parking garage will be 150 ft.

^lol... That's what they think.

So what is the new height?

Can't be taller than 295'. That's what the FAA has designated as the max height for the site.

^lol... That's what they think.



Can't be taller than 295'. That's what the FAA has designated as the max height for the site.

And the FAA will get the last laugh. I doubt the city or developer will fight them. So at this height it will not be 450k square ft.

Maybe they will get it, maybe they won't. There is more to that FAA thing than meets the eye.

The renderings from the article show a 19 (or 20) story office building...

The Marriott is taller than 295' and it is closer to the airport.

I don't know. The HCAA has a new leader in charge since the last amount of proposals for areas around there. And when the new chairman came on board last year, there was those 3 proposals (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1230987) that received approval from the HCAA. One being 500 Ft. just east of the Whiting Garage. So if this is 400 ft. and right next to something approved for 500 ft. by the HCAA, I don't see how it could be a problem.

Surprise! Someone who works with Mr. Abberger wrote back and sent two pictures. One is a render that looks exactly like the green glass Prime Meridian building only from another angle. The other pic is an ariel view similar to what was in the tribune. If you guys still want to see them, then I'll attempt to get them on here. They did not answer my question about height and I told them there was discussion here on SSC about the FAA. I did get a look at that block the other day & it does look a little bigger than most typical blocks in DT.

Surprise! Someone who works with Mr. Abberger wrote back and sent two pictures. One is a render that looks exactly like the green glass Prime Meridian building only from another angle. The other pic is an ariel view similar to what was in the tribune. If you guys still want to see them, then I'll attempt to get them on here. They did not answer my question about height and I told them there was discussion here on SSC about the FAA. I did get a look at that block the other day & it does look a little bigger than most typical blocks in DT.
Yeah it's a little bigger than most of the blocks there. There's actually a legit street that runs through the lot that this is planned on, but I don't think many people even use it because it's kind of questionable if it is a street or not when driving.

Does the render match the aerial layout? If I remember right, the previous Prime Meridian planned was the office building fronting Channelside Dr. and then had the parking garage behind the office building.

Yeah it's a little bigger than most of the blocks there. There's actually a legit street that runs through the lot that this is planned on, but I don't think many people even use it because it's kind of questionable if it is a street or not when driving.

Does the render match the aerial layout? If I remember right, the previous Prime Meridian planned was the office building fronting Channelside Dr. and then had the parking garage behind the office building.

It's the same building. They must have chopped off two floors. I'm counting 18 from the pic.

It's the same building. They must have chopped off two floors. I'm counting 18 from the pic.
Same but shorter than this?

http://www.hok.com/cfm/ProjectDetailArchive.cfm?Tag=&projectID=503&TagList=Commercial%5ESustainable%20Design%5EUnited%20States%5EArchitecture

Weird.... I don't know, I feel that there is different renders than what they may have given to you. And no render of the hotel portion either?

Same but shorter than this?

http://www.hok.com/cfm/ProjectDetailArchive.cfm?Tag=&projectID=503&TagList=Commercial%5ESustainable%20Design%5EUnited%20States%5EArchitecture

Weird.... I don't know, I feel that there is different renders than what they may have given to you. And no render of the hotel portion either?

That's the one. The same one, just moved from Channelside (like what has already been discussed). There was no mention about the hotel. It's a seperate entity.

post 'em

http://s1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/delmayberry/[/IMG

http://s1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/delmayberry/[/IMG

Oops. I'm still trying to figure out how to go from photobucket to here. I'm retiring for the night. Smiley, go to photobucket under Delmayberry. If you could give me 1-2-3 instructions on how to get it here, that would be great.

Maybe they will get it, maybe they won't. There is more to that FAA thing than meets the eye.
Yeah, funny how those hard numbers become flexible for the right people.

Here you go:
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/delmayberry/2007-PMC-CrystalRendering-Crop-NoSky.jpg

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/delmayberry/CollierGoogleAerialSWView-Light-1.jpg

Wish it had more street interaction, but at least it has the hotel in the plans and it will fill a dead space in DT between the CC and DT proper. Also nice that it is convenient to the new street car stop at Ft. Brooke, should add a few riders.

It looks like crap. There is no clear retail anywhere (including the garage.) Just a horrible design from the 1980's brought back to life. (maybe it is just a bad rendering) Really, I think it will all be approved regardless because the recession is so bad (as is the city govt)

Ohhh... THIS Trammel Crow parcel... They'll get 400' approved no problem, though the masses shown look like they're nowhere close to 400'. More like 280', tops.

And yes, the proposed site plan is a sick joke.

:ohno:

At this point I will take what I can get in this city. Anything that makes it look a little better and add something to the skyline and general cityscape.

True, it is a mediocre design, but it fits in for Tampa. Mediocre city with mediocre buildings, it all fits in. Tampa is what it is, a nice city to live in - but it is not the next great city.

Tampa used to be compared to cities like Charlotte and San Diego, now we are compared to Raleigh and Austin because those other cities have passed us by. Pretty soon Raleigh and Austin will as well because the city is and has been very stagnant and given the demographics it is highly unlikely to change any time soon.

I know people are going to flame me for not desiring more for the city, for not expecting more from the leaders. I used to care and think that Tampa could emerge as an up and coming city. The recession, demographics, and failure of any transit initiative in the area have killed that expectation for me.

That is the main reason I have not been visiting this forum much. A few people with great ideas that keep going around in circles with what Tampa should be, or what Tampa should aspire to become.

Accept Tampa for what it is and become a little more happy or move somewhere that actually is going to become better or already is a better city.

Steve

The original site plan for the Prime Meridian had retail space, a restaurant, and bank on the lower lever. The retail colonade was adjacent to the parking garage. Hopefully, the new buildings will include retail, etc. http://www.cbre.com/NR/rdonlyres/6BCB2318-79A8-4C58-B9E1-72A4443953E5/0/Prime_Meridian_4Page_FLY_Web.pdf

None of this makes any sense.

I was just looking at the transcript from the council meeting and it was said that the plaza will afford views of the Forum and the Marriott. Looking at these images, how can it? The plaza is wedged between four structures - the office building, the hotel, and the new parking garage to the east and existing garage the north.

And if there were to be retail in the plaza, as the (former, but largely unchanged) plan linked above by youngkg might suggest, how does one reach it? You have to walk into the parking garage or through the surface lot to the southwest? :nuts:

Thanks Tampa Steve. Any tips for moving them from photobucket? I couldn't figure it out obviously. Yes this building looks like typical 80's and if built it will feel like it's been there since then.

:ohno:

Tampa Steve, I'm with you. I've tried as much as I can to influence the city council in influencing different designs, adding retail, and so on and either they failed in doing so or I failed in wasting my time believing they would do anything at all. Not even a resident of the city and I give a damn about it's future and how it is designed. And it seems like it just gets worse and worse with every project, more faults and more design flaws. What's the point at all bringing them to a variance meeting or city council meeting? Just read the next item on the agenda, no matter how hideous and dull it is, and approve it.

I've thought about staying here after USF and doing everything I have planned, but I really don't see this area going anywhere. There is little care from the city and no care at all from the majority of the residents in the city. Most are retirees anyways who just came here to live the remainder of their lives without worry. They wouldn't be bothered dealing with what would make Tampa great... again. To think, we're coming up to 20 years when Tampa was given the honorable nickname, "America's Next Greatest City". What happened to that and why did we never build on that nickname? Tampa definitely doesn't deserve that nickname today.

Was looking over the Top 10 People to Watch in 2012 at tampabay.com and ran across Bob Abberger, marketing director Trammel Crow.

t's a powerful symbol of "rising" downtown confidence. SouthGate, the first new office tower to be built in downtown Tampa in nearly 15 years, is back on track. The man behind the project is Bob Abberger, managing director of real estate firm Trammell Crow Co. He envisions up to a 20-story tower, an adjacent 350-room upscale hotel and a parking garage. It would rise across from the University of South Florida's soon-to-debut Center for Advanced Medical Learning and Simulation, or CAMLS, not far from Channelside. The fit is a natural. Abberger anticipates plenty of potential customers: physicians and their surgical teams flying into Tampa to be trained in the latest robotic surgery techniques.

Rezoning was completed in December in a 7-0 vote with no comments from the City Council. Says Abberger, 56: "We are proceeding with site plan approval, announcing our marketing team and advancing discussions with tenants." Likely completion: early 2014.

Will also be changing the thread name to SouthGate to go with the project.

They got to get a move on it if they hope to be done by then.

^Hey! Longtime no see!

Just in case nobody else noticed, they have two signs up on Morgan and one on Brorein showing the green office and hotel but still don't know if there's solid proof that it's going anywhere.

^^
Is it a render of the hotel? I don't think we've seen that yet.

^^
Is it a render of the hotel? I don't think we've seen that yet.
No. I actually decided to take a pic of the sign, just shows the model layout of the hotel and office. It's the same one that has been posted here before. There's a trailer on the site though and I didn't know if it might be open to the public with additional renders.... so I didn't venture over to see if it was. haha

Ah, ok. Thanks!

^Hey! Longtime no see!

Yeah I obviously don't post much anymore, but I'm always watching....

There are probably opportunities to convince them to add retail in the next few months. There are a lot of other permits for them to get and quite honestly requests they are going to have from the city. But this won't be a city council issue -- it'll be a Mayor buckhorn thing. I was going to ask the city about the plans (esp for retail) via public records request so I will let you know in three days or less when I hear back.

FloridaFuture, I agree they have to get moving if they hope to be done by Early 2014. And I was going to ask if they might do one or the other first before starting on the second tower, but it seems they'll do both towers. So I'm kind of interested in what hotel they'll convince to fill in the space, or they'll build without having a brand to the hotel tower for a while

There are probably opportunities to convince them to add retail in the next few months. There are a lot of other permits for them to get and quite honestly requests they are going to have from the city. But this won't be a city council issue -- it'll be a Mayor buckhorn thing. I was going to ask the city about the plans (esp for retail) via public records request so I will let you know in three days or less when I hear back.
Be stupid if they don't have some retail facing CAMLS. Maybe a fast food place, coffee shop, bank, convenience store, whatever people at CAMLS would be interested in.

I know the parking lot is pretty new at the southwest corner of the parcel, but I really hope they take it out and replace it with a park until something can be built on top of it. It will look so out of place when the towers are built.

FloridaFuture, I agree they have to get moving if they hope to be done by Early 2014. And I was going to ask if they might do one or the other first before starting on the second tower, but it seems they'll do both towers. So I'm kind of interested in what hotel they'll convince to fill in the space, or they'll build without having a brand to the hotel tower for a while

Especially with two new hotels opening up in downtown before that time, its likely to be a brand name brand that has solid business contracts. Especially if they want to be the hotel doctors stay at for CMLS training.


Be stupid if they don't have some retail facing CAMLS. Maybe a fast food place, coffee shop, bank, convenience store, whatever people at CAMLS would be interested in.

Lets be honest ... not just CAMLS but the retail and food options are weak on that end of downtown. For decent food the people will have to walk to the other side of Gaslight park. So essentially its just bad business not to add more retail. Of course that never stops developers ...

I know the parking lot is pretty new at the southwest corner of the parcel, but I really hope they take it out and replace it with a park until something can be built on top of it. It will look so out of place when the towers are built.

Do we know who owns that lot? Same people? Did it have plans before the downturn?

Especially with two new hotels opening up in downtown before that time, its likely to be a brand name brand that has solid business contracts. Especially if they want to be the hotel doctors stay at for CMLS training.
What's the two hotels? One I'm guessing is the Floridan Hotel, but I can't think of what else might be going up? I'm trying to figure out what we don't have in downtown that might be interested. Do we have an Intercontinental?




Lets be honest ... not just CAMLS but the retail and food options are weak on that end of downtown. For decent food the people will have to walk to the other side of Gaslight park. So essentially its just bad business not to add more retail. Of course that never stops developers ...
True. So there is plenty of people to attract in that area to fill in retail space. But you're also right, that doesn't stop developers.


Do we know who owns that lot? Same people? Did it have plans before the downturn?[/QUOTE]
Trammell Crow owns that lot as well, so they could actually design it to fit with the rest of their project. I think it would make a great location for a park for the office workers, CAMLS employees and visitors, and hotel stayers there.

I'm actually looking at the picture I took of one of the signs and looking at the earlier model tampa steve posted, it looks like they might have added a couple floors to the hotel because both seem evenly in height now while the previous model showed the hotel being shorter than the office building.

What's the two hotels? One I'm guessing is the Floridan Hotel, but I can't think of what else might be going up? I'm trying to figure out what we don't have in downtown that might be interested. Do we have an Intercontinental?

The old Federal Courthouse is being turned into a hotel.

The old Federal Courthouse is being turned into a hotel.

Yeah that was the second one I was referring to. That that one is about 75% chance or higher of being a Starwood or Hilton hotel of some sort. All of the hotels but one or two that they have done are one or the other (http://dsginc.net/hotels).

That would be a third starwood downtown or the second Hilton (after embassy suites) downtown.

The old Federal Courthouse is being turned into a hotel.

Yeah that was the second one I was referring to. That that one is about 75% chance or higher of being a Starwood or Hilton hotel of some sort. All of the hotels but one or two that they have done are one or the other (http://dsginc.net/hotels).

That would be a third starwood downtown or the second Hilton (after embassy suites) downtown.
Forgot about that one. Thanks :)

Here's the sign btw
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7067/6891793061_50b571de25_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tampamike/6891793061/)
tampa3 048 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tampamike/6891793061/) by TampaMike2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/tampamike/), on Flickr

There are probably opportunities to convince them to add retail in the next few months. There are a lot of other permits for them to get and quite honestly requests they are going to have from the city. But this won't be a city council issue -- it'll be a Mayor buckhorn thing. I was going to ask the city about the plans (esp for retail) via public records request so I will let you know in three days or less when I hear back.

Unlikely to accomplish anything, but go for it.

http://tampasphere.wordpress.com/2011/11/28/213/

^"Unlikely" is far too optimistic of a word in this context.

If anything, raising awareness about the current site plan will probably motivate someone with city staff to call up the developer and remind him that if they want to fence off the entire site and gate it, just cite UT's precedent of doing the same thing, and council will eagerly approve it while gushing about how amazing the project's design is and how it will create millions of jobs.

Unlikely to accomplish anything, but go for it.

http://tampasphere.wordpress.com/2011/11/28/213/

I am basically agree with tampashere sucks right now, but its very clear they haven't actually bothered to design a thing yet from everything I have seen and heard.

I will talk to some people on Monday about it and let people know. I am not thinking much will happen, but I am bored, have a phone, and might as well make calls. While i am not as optimistic as some people think I am -- I am positive that I won't have to deal with city staff reminding them they can put a fence around it ;)

Any good examples around downtown that has been done here ever?

Any good examples around downtown that has been done here ever?
Good examples of what exactly? A modern office building or a hotel in downtown Tampa that has good street interaction? Ummm... The best I can really think of is One Mack-Cali Center (or whatever it's called). Not that great, but at least it has a public area running under it, and there are some spaces that open out to the street, rather than only inward to a lobby. Most of downtown's newer buildings absolutely suck in terms of street interaction. The best ones I can think of right now are all residential. (and I'm sure self explanatory)

Good examples of what exactly? A modern office building or a hotel in downtown Tampa that has good street interaction? Ummm... The best I can really think of is One Mack-Cali Center (or whatever it's called). Not that great, but at least it has a public area running under it, and there are some spaces that open out to the street, rather than only inward to a lobby. Most of downtown's newer buildings absolutely suck in terms of street interaction. The best ones I can think of right now are all residential. (and I'm sure self explanatory)

Yeah, I was just wondering if there something to point to I wasn't thinking of. That building is okay, but given the city lot across the street it's a bit weak. However I do know that breuggers bagels is packed at lunch, because it's the only thing street level down there like that. But the rest of the retail just ends up being surface office that isn't even using the storefront really.

^That's up to building management to lease the space to right tenants, not necessarily the first one that comes along. The city could also clue in and offer tax incentives for buildings which get ground floor retail tenants. (for existing buildings, not just new ones)

UT is not in the same zoning. You can't put a fence in The central business district. Oh yeah, unless you have influence. Like Bob Abberger. Ha.

oh no you ditn't!

extracted from the article about Westshore...

"I happen to believe that in central Tampa all the stars are starting to align," said Robert Abberger, managing director for the Florida division of Trammell Crow, which plans a 20-story, 400,000-square-foot building downtown at Florida Avenue and Whiting Street.

Though downtown hasn't seen a major new tower since 1992, Abberger said his project offers the perks of any building outside downtown: ample parking in an attached garage, a major hotel, energy-efficient systems and open floor spaces.

The project still needs an anchor tenant, he said, though "we're marching ahead on the site plan approval, and negotiating with tenants. I'm optimistic we'll be out of the ground next year."

blah blah, rent, sales, blah.

When the ground is dug up, I will believe they are going to build.

It's not going to happen. Put this on the "never built" list.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I think it depends what kind of deal on the rent the anchor tenant can get.

http://oi49.tinypic.com/2yv9vv8.jpg

There was a new rendering of this in skyline context from a TBBJ article this weekend.

It fills in the gap nicely, but I thought it would be a little taller.

It says "downtown's new towers coming along" as if construction has already begun. I'm pretty sure nothing has begun. And yes, I wish they were taller, at least 30 stories.

Yeah looks kinda pitiful. Wish it was taller but it does fill in the gap.

I'm not too much bother by the height, the use of the ground floor is what I'm more focused on. If they can utilize the close proximity of the office buildings, the workers and customers from it's own offices and hotel, and the CAMLS; then I'll be happy. But if they come weak with retail and leasing space, then I'll be a little ticked.

This project has always struck me as value engineered crap, no matter where it was proposed to be built.

Bingo.

This project has always struck me as value engineered crap, no matter where it was proposed to be built.

Absolutely. Excellence is clearly not the objective with this project.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/plans-moving-ahead-for-downtown-tampas-first-office-tower-in-20-years/1236063

Plans moving ahead for downtown Tampa's first office tower in 20 years
By Elizabeth Behrman, Times Staff Writer
Elizabeth Behrman Tampa Bay Times In Print: Tuesday, June 19, 2012


The real estate firm behind the SouthGate Tower project has provided a glimpse of what could be the newest addition to Tampa's waterfront skyline.

Trammell Crow Co. plans to break ground on SouthGate Tower, a 20-story office building with a 1,200-car parking garage, early next year. It is expected to be completed by early 2015, and the adjacent 350-room upscale hotel is expected to be finished by 2016.

The project, once seemingly doomed by the economic downturn, is expected to rise near the Tampa Bay Times Forum off the Lee Roy Selmon Expressway. SouthGate is designed to reduce solar exposure and will feature energy-efficient lighting and water-conserving fixtures.

It will be downtown Tampa's first new office tower in 20 years.

Because it will be close to the nightlife and business amenities of downtown Tampa, Bob Abberger, managing director of Trammell Crow Co., said the tower is a prime example of the "work, live, play" concept.

"It's the right product for downtown," he said. "It is where corporate America wants to be."

While there are no committed tenants yet, Abberger said the company is in negotiations with several possible tenants and has been fielding calls from many interested parties.

By the time SouthGate Tower is completed and ready, Abberger said, law firms, banking firms and other service industries that could use the large spaces will be in the right place financially to sign a lease.

Leave it to me to point out the irony in these statements...

It will be downtown Tampa's first new office tower in 20 years.


Bob Abberger, managing director of Trammell Crow Co., said the tower is a prime example of the "work, live, play" concept.
"It's the right product for downtown," he said. "It is where corporate America wants to be."


My guess is if DT Tampa was really an example of the kind of urban location desired by "corporate America", then this wouldn't be the first serious proposal for a new DT office tower in a generation.

My guess is if DT Tampa was really an example of the kind of urban location desired by "corporate America", then this wouldn't be the first serious proposal for a new DT office tower in a generation.

I took it not as DT Tampa is where corporate America wants to be, but a DT in general. As opposed to suburban office parks.

Not sure if this had been linked before, but Colliers has a flier (http://www.listinglab.com/collective/pop_file_opener.cfm?getDirect=10130-4gh6oct06vk3nxv68) (PDF) about it that includes the high res rendering. There's some info on their site (http://cilistings.listinglab.com/SouthGate/index.cfm#&panel1-2) too.

Ugly project but nice to see it. Glad for the downtown growth

We'll take it in Orlando if you Tampans don't want it.

I'm still doubtful about this. That whole article was written in "IF". "Could be" doesn't mean "will be." Close to the nightlife? Really? Waterfront? Really?

I don't know why just about every project that is announced has a garage incorporated on the site which takes up such a large footprint? Why this city does not require developers to build up instead of out is beyond me. What a waste of space and interaction each time one of these garages get built.