The Zoo Interchange is of BEYOND CRITICAL IMPORTANCE to the economy of the Appleton/Oshkosh/Fond du Lac area and its health CANNOT be ignored.

Mike

Bingo. If the spans in the Zoo had been allowed to collapse on traffic, it would have been an utter catastrophe.

Seriously, screw the Zoo Interchange. The Humboldt Bridge needs to get finished this month. I don't understand, nor do I care about what's taking them so long. Just finish the damn thing.

I agree that the Humboldt Ave bridge project, has been a cluster-screw, and it has made getting around that area a real headache, but it really has NOTHING to do with the Zoo Interchange. And, at least you can walk across it now.

They stated on WISN that they encountered some unexpected soil compositions once things got under way (i.e. harder rock, etc). That sounds like total BS to me...I'm no bridge builder, but it would seem they would have taken samples well before construction began to know what they were up against. I hope they sock the contractor with some overdue fees on this one...two years to rebuild one little bridge is unacceptable.

I thought it had to do with them throwing concrete into the river. Are they facing some sort of lawsuit for that? I remember some lady complaining last year and they had to stop work.

I thought it had to do with them throwing concrete into the river. Are they facing some sort of lawsuit for that? I remember some lady complaining last year and they had to stop work.

The contractor throwing concrete in the river was working on the riverwalk behind the Condo building to the west of Lakefront Brewery.

Anyone interested in the Humboldt Ave. debacle, read this: Ask OMC: What's up with the Humboldt Ave. bridge? (http://onmilwaukee.com/buzz/articles/askomchumboldtbridge.html)

Anyone interested in the Humboldt Ave. debacle, read this: Ask OMC: What's up with the Humboldt Ave. bridge? (http://onmilwaukee.com/buzz/articles/askomchumboldtbridge.html)

Aha, VERY helpful. Thanks.

I love the idea but I just don't know how much it's going to be used. And do they need to run it down crowded Prospect Ave? Prospect is already jammed up enough with busses, pedestrians, people trying to park, so on.... Does it really need another obstacle?

.

i think you just answered your own question here, sir.

the very fact that prospect IS congested is the reason why it is a good location for a street tram. with a more efficient rail-based streetcar in place, fewer busses and fewer cars will have to travel down it.

i think you just answered your own question here, sir.

the very fact that prospect IS congested is the reason why it is a good location for a street tram. with a more efficient rail-based streetcar in place, fewer busses and fewer cars will have to travel down it.

No, what I was trying to get at was the normal flow of Prospect, including myself, will not use the rail system because it doesn't go to places I would use. IE - MP, BC, Airport, Summerfest grounds, MU, so on. So not only will traffic on Prospect not decrease, but this will slow it down. If I was the city, I would try putting it on one of the smaller side roads and make people walk a block or two just to ease congestion on Prospect.

I hope I'm wrong, but the system proposed seems to go nowhere most city dwellers would want to go and it's going to end up being a bus 2.0 at the cost of $50+ million. Don't get me wrong, I'm not Walker minded and am willing to fork over tax dollars for a well thought out plan. I'd like to see tracks laid in the middle of 94 and all the way to MP and even the Zoo. Send it south towards the Airport. Connect the major schools - MU and UWM with downtown and the airport.

If it's just going to be Bus 2.0, I'd rather they spend the $50 million on electric buses so I don't have to hear and smell the beasts everyday in Milwaukee.

No, what I was trying to get at was the normal flow of Prospect, including myself, will not use the rail system because it doesn't go to places I would use. IE - MP, BC, Airport, Summerfest grounds, MU, so on. So not only will traffic on Prospect not decrease, but this will slow it down. If I was the city, I would try putting it on one of the smaller side roads and make people walk a block or two just to ease congestion on Prospect.

I hope I'm wrong, but the system proposed seems to go nowhere most city dwellers would want to go and it's going to end up being a bus 2.0 at the cost of $50+ million. Don't get me wrong, I'm not Walker minded and am willing to fork over tax dollars for a well thought out plan. I'd like to see tracks laid in the middle of 94 and all the way to MP and even the Zoo. Send it south towards the Airport. Connect the major schools - MU and UWM with downtown and the airport.

If it's just going to be Bus 2.0, I'd rather they spend the $50 million on electric buses so I don't have to hear and smell the beasts everyday in Milwaukee.


The plan you are talking about (going to Miller Park, UWM, Airport) would cost about $500m. While that is great and I hope it happens, you have to start somewhere. This plan seems like a good start to a future larger system. What do you mean most city dwellers won't want to go where this goes? City dwellers don't want to go to Brady Street, Cathedral Square, Third Ward??? Those are the most popular places in the city!

Plus, the article says it would also go up fourth street, right past the Bradley Center. Well it might be a bit out of the way to go the intermodal station first, it's not like you go to the Bradley Center everyday.

deleted, double post.

@MilwaukeeD Thanks I was just about to say it looks to me like the route hits many hotspots (Milwaukee St., Cathedral Square, Third Ward, Brady St. and so on), high density population corridors, and job locations.. Make sense to me.

Suburban office tenants likely to shift downtown, report says
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel
May 4, 2010 7:15 a.m. |(27) COMMENTS

Some local office tenants are expected to shift from suburban buildings to downtown Milwaukee as downtown building owners offer more rent concessions, according to a new report from commercial real estate services provider Marcus & Millichap.

"These increased incentives are already drawing suburban tenants with expiring leases, including accounting firm Baker Tilly and engineering company CH2M Hill, both of which were priced out of the downtown area in recent years and are now looking to occupy space in the metro’s highest-profile office submarket," the report says.

Both Baker Tilly and CH2M Hill are now at Honey Creek Corporate Center, on Milwaukee's far west side, north of I-94 and east of the Zoo Interchange. Both are considered suburban tenants by local brokers and developers because they are in a suburban-style business park, and not in the downtown area.

Executives from both companies have said they're considering new locations, but have not yet announced any specific plans.

Along with existing downtown office towers seeking to land new tenants, there are proposals to develop new office buildings, including one that would be combined with a downtown cinema.

Marcus & Millichap says suburban office building owners are expected to make more rent concessions in the second half of 2010 to hang on to tenants even as other businesses relocate downtown.

No, what I was trying to get at was the normal flow of Prospect, including myself, will not use the rail system because it doesn't go to places I would use. IE - MP, BC, Airport, Summerfest grounds, MU, so on. So not only will traffic on Prospect not decrease, but this will slow it down. If I was the city, I would try putting it on one of the smaller side roads and make people walk a block or two just to ease congestion on Prospect.

I hope I'm wrong, but the system proposed seems to go nowhere most city dwellers would want to go and it's going to end up being a bus 2.0 at the cost of $50+ million. Don't get me wrong, I'm not Walker minded and am willing to fork over tax dollars for a well thought out plan. I'd like to see tracks laid in the middle of 94 and all the way to MP and even the Zoo. Send it south towards the Airport. Connect the major schools - MU and UWM with downtown and the airport.

If it's just going to be Bus 2.0, I'd rather they spend the $50 million on electric buses so I don't have to hear and smell the beasts everyday in Milwaukee.

BABYSTEPS!

Milwaukee currently has ZERO rail. we need to take what we can get as it comes and grow from there. don't discard this starter system because it doesn't solve ALL the transit needs in the city-- as wonderful as it would be, we can't have a comprehensive high-end transit system in place overnight. we have to work with what we have while we fight for more and gain momentum.

I would also add that a streetcar coming every 10-15 minutes down Prospect is very unlikely to cause an increase in congestion.

We can let the car drivers use a dirt road alongside the former interchange until they can figure out a way to pay for their own roads.

I'm seriously sick of this double standard. :goodnight:

Now you're being ridiculous. The economies of the areas north and northwest of milwaukee rely on the interchange. Not to mention it's almost completely paid for by road users. I hope you got a good nights sleep and woke up in a better disposition. ;)

Now you're being ridiculous. The economies of the areas north and northwest of milwaukee rely on the interchange. Not to mention it's almost completely paid for by road users. I hope you got a good nights sleep and woke up in a better disposition. ;)

no, no, no.... Coldwake, you are ignoring history here I think-- until we forced the issue to be otherwise by building way way too many highways, the rail lines in this nation carried the economy -- and this was NOT THAT LONG AGO, either. i think it's fair for ajknee to be frustrated that our state highway spending is given a blank cheque with no questions asked, while entire rail projects that are a FRACTION of the price of just one interchange are scrutinized and politically bludgeoned and berated for "not supporting themselves" when none of our highways "support themselves" either.

speaking of driving on dirt roads... i think the fact that our highways ARE in such disrepair is a testament to the fact that we have, as a nation, COMPLETELY OVERBUILT our highway system and cannot keep up with the proper repairs. this would not have been a problem if they had balanced transit spending a bit more fairly between rail and roads.

That's all well and good, and I'm as pro-rail as anyone, but none of that changes the fact that the Zoo Interchange is of critical importance to the Fox Valley area. No amount or rail development is going to change that. Making exaggerated anti-road statements just gives ammunition to those who oppose progress on rail and makes the pro-rail crowd come off as not in touch with reality.


no, no, no.... Coldwake, you are ignoring history here I think-- until we forced the issue to be otherwise by building way way too many highways, the rail lines in this nation carried the economy -- and this was NOT THAT LONG AGO, either. i think it's fair for ajknee to be frustrated that our state highway spending is given a blank cheque with no questions asked, while entire rail projects that are a FRACTION of the price of just one interchange are scrutinized and politically bludgeoned and berated for "not supporting themselves" when none of our highways "support themselves" either.

speaking of driving on dirt roads... i think the fact that our highways ARE in such disrepair is a testament to the fact that we have, as a nation, COMPLETELY OVERBUILT our highway system and cannot keep up with the proper repairs. this would not have been a problem if they had balanced transit spending a bit more fairly between rail and roads.

So, I went to the DOT offices today and got a look at the latest renderings for the new train shed design. The roof isn't as arched as I would have liked, but there is still time in the designs to possibly change that.

The roof will be substantially taller than the existing train shed and will incorporate natural sky lighting as well as a pedestrian bridge with escalators, stairs and glass elevators that will allow passengers to reach all five of the station's main rail tracks.

It's a vast improvement over the current train shed, regardless.


I did take a couple of photos of the renderings,... if anyone is interested. Sorry that my photos are not very high-quality.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a81/Maximilian77/trainshed1better.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a81/Maximilian77/trainshedbetter2.jpg

^looks pretty good to me.

If it's just going to be Bus 2.0, I'd rather they spend the $50 million on electric buses so I don't have to hear and smell the beasts everyday in Milwaukee.
I agree.

I'm at a loss as to what advantage a local street-rail bus has over a regular rubber tire street-surface bus? The only one I can think of might be the ability to link up multiple cars, but I've seldom seen that in practice and have never heard mention about it in regards to the local proposals. (Obviously I'm not referring to commuter rail, which is long overdue here.)

The huge disadvantages of starting a street car system from scratch (as opposed to maintaining an established legacy system) are the far greater costs of installing rails, and the lack of flexibility once the rails are laid.
Also keep in mind, especially in the case of a scenic road like Prospect, the overhead power lines which would probably run down the middle of the street.

We're probably on the verge of a new era in battery- (or other) -powered electromotive transportation. I think money would be more productively spent on more and fancier (for boosting our image) and the most modern of road buses for downtown and adjacent passenger transportation; For now, and into the unpredictable future.

Big solar farm will double as training center
By Thomas Content of the Journal Sentinel
May 5, 2010 4:10 p.m.

Leaders at Milwaukee Area Technical College kicked off the construction of the largest solar project in the state with a groundbreaking ceremony Wednesday afternoon north of Capitol Drive.

The solar project -- dubbed the Photovoltaic Educational Farm -- will be developed on a former landfill along the Milwaukee River, underneath the television tower for MPTV, Milwaukee Public Television.

The project will feature nearly 2,600 solar panels from four different manufacturers, in eight different configurations. It's scheduled to be completed in August.

The aim of the project is to showcase a variety of renewable energy technologies, as well as provide training in solar field to students at MATC as well as Milwaukee's three engineering schools, said Brad Bateman of Johnson Controls.

"This will be a testing and training platform unlike any other in the country," he said.

The project is projected to generate enough power to make the TV transmitter for MPTV the first of any public television station in the country to be powered with renewable energy. MPTV projects energy savings of at least $70,000 in its first year of operation.

The project will employ 150 people, said Sargent.

Johnson Controls Inc. is the technical college's partner and general contractor on the project, which includes 14 other firms -- 13 of them from Wisconsin.


----------------

I really like what this will do, as both an MATC graduate and former Channel 10 employee I am glad that the college has taken some initiative and gotten creative with energy solutions. Also once the tower is off the grid it probably won't go off the air during power outages anymore! It's good to see another solar education facility also. This will be just one more thing that Channel 10 has pioneered not only for public television but also for broadcast television in this country.

For some reason the train shed design reminds me of legoland in Mall of America. Anyone?

I agree.

I'm at a loss as to what advantage a local street-rail bus has over a regular rubber tire street-surface bus? The only one I can think of might be the ability to link up multiple cars, but I've seldom seen that in practice and have never heard mention about it in regards to the local proposals. (Obviously I'm not referring to commuter rail, which is long overdue here.)

The huge disadvantages of starting a street car system from scratch (as opposed to maintaining an established legacy system) are the far greater costs of installing rails, and the lack of flexibility once the rails are laid.
Also keep in mind, especially in the case of a scenic road like Prospect, the overhead power lines which would probably run down the middle of the street.

We're probably on the verge of a new era in battery- (or other) -powered electromotive transportation. I think money would be more productively spent on more and fancier (for boosting our image) and the most modern of road buses for downtown and adjacent passenger transportation; For now, and into the unpredictable future.



meh... don't get me wrong, i think electric busses are a HUGE improvement aesthetically over diesel busses which are just obnoxious, loud, fume-producing monsters that should be banished from our city forever... HOWEVER, there are several distinct advantages of rail-based systems over busses which even the quietest, most tram-looking modern bus cannot fulfill. it is a very strong argument, although i'll agree it is a bit difficult to understand unless you've lived in a city with rail transit (which, i think, most opponents to rail in Wisconsin probably haven't)... anyway, the point is that rail-based systems... even if they are not on right-of-way (which i hope hope HOPE the connector will be), offer a distinct presence of permanence to the city landscape.
as someone who has relied on public transit (both busses and rail), i can tell you that while there may be days when a train doesn't come to its scheduled stop for one reason or another (delay, breakdown, accident), due to the PERMANENT infrastructure which supports the system (tracks, platforms, stations, etc), there is an OVERWHELMING sense among passengers and potential passengers, that another train will always arrive at that given station. it might come late, it might even come really REALLY late, but it will arrive. the tracks in front of me say so. those tracks are for the train and for nothing else.

IN CONTRAST, when a bus does not arrive- and this happens quite a lot-- there is no indication that another bus may ever come. indeed, the only permanent fixture at most bus stops is a thin rectangular sign with the bus' number affixed, ratcheted to a metal post. that's all there is. and when there is construction on the street, that bus stop exists in the form of a cardboard sign that is tie-wrapped to an orange construction cone.
that is not permanence, my friend. signs printed on cardboard are not the markings of a city with a proper transit system. it doesn't work for residents and it certainly will never fly with visitors.

rail transit is permanent. "where is the transit stop?" someone from out of town might ask. do you explain to them that it is just over there by the orange construction cones? yes, just there.. that sign flapping in the wind?
or do you point to the steel tracks embedded in the ground and the bricks and mortar train station and platform and say "there. that's the street car stop"?

For some reason the train shed design reminds me of legoland in Mall of America. Anyone?

yeah, i asked about the colourings, eastsider... the stairs/bridge won't be red, apparently-- that's just a potential design concept-- they will be blue, apparently, though... not sure that they'll be quite this bright, vibrant child's toy blue, though... i suspect several changes before the final designs are settled upon.

For some reason the train shed design reminds me of legoland in Mall of America. Anyone?
wow, it does look like the LegoLand in the MOA

and when there is construction on the street, that bus stop exists in the form of a cardboard sign that is tie-wrapped to an orange construction cone.

Well, that sign would probably point to the location of the re-routed bus stop until construction is finished; Road construction is a bit more of an obstacle to streetcars I'm afraid.
I've admired cities with well established streetcar systems, e.g Toronto, San Francisco, and Boston, and found their presence enjoyable in Philadelphia, though much of that city is in very sad shape, but, while I find your argument novel, it's not at all persuasive to me.
I've also ridden public transportation all my life and, if the bus system is big enough, pretty much never have to fret about over-long waits ('though I do object to being forced to listen to commercials once on board, as in Milwaukee!). There are also systems in place that monitor actual bus locations and post expected arrival times on electric signboards in bus shelters (we have a couple on the Square here in Madison, 'though I would not otherwise recommend Madison Metro as a model bus system).
I bet that with the money saved by implementing a conventional but exceptionally attractive and comfortable bus loop in and around downtown, free rides would be possible, and that, knowing Milwaukeeans for certain, and tourists too, would guarantee long lasting success.

I agree.

I'm at a loss as to what advantage a local street-rail bus has over a regular rubber tire street-surface bus? The only one I can think of might be the ability to link up multiple cars, but I've seldom seen that in practice and have never heard mention about it in regards to the local proposals. (Obviously I'm not referring to commuter rail, which is long overdue here.)

The huge disadvantages of starting a street car system from scratch (as opposed to maintaining an established legacy system) are the far greater costs of installing rails, and the lack of flexibility once the rails are laid.
Also keep in mind, especially in the case of a scenic road like Prospect, the overhead power lines which would probably run down the middle of the street.

We're probably on the verge of a new era in battery- (or other) -powered electromotive transportation. I think money would be more productively spent on more and fancier (for boosting our image) and the most modern of road buses for downtown and adjacent passenger transportation; For now, and into the unpredictable future.
As I have mentioned several times in these forvms, I agree that if Metro Milwaukee wants electric-powered transit that they should first bring back the über-extensive 'trackless' trolley-bus network that the city had during the mid-20th century and worry about more expensive fixed-rail later. The vehicles looked like standard buses, but drew their tractive energy from two overhead wires using trolley poles.

Mike

That train shed kicks ass!

Don't forget, traffic traveling from Chicago and south and east have to travel through the I-94 corridor south of Milwaukee before going through the Zoo interchange (if this arguement is about what should have been done first) im not for one or the other, just throwing that out there.

I agree.

I'm at a loss as to what advantage a local street-rail bus has over a regular rubber tire street-surface bus? The only one I can think of might be the ability to link up multiple cars, but I've seldom seen that in practice and have never heard mention about it in regards to the local proposals. (Obviously I'm not referring to commuter rail, which is long overdue here.)

The huge disadvantages of starting a street car system from scratch (as opposed to maintaining an established legacy system) are the far greater costs of installing rails, and the lack of flexibility once the rails are laid.
Also keep in mind, especially in the case of a scenic road like Prospect, the overhead power lines which would probably run down the middle of the street.

We're probably on the verge of a new era in battery- (or other) -powered electromotive transportation. I think money would be more productively spent on more and fancier (for boosting our image) and the most modern of road buses for downtown and adjacent passenger transportation; For now, and into the unpredictable future.

Thanks, that's what I guess I was trying to get at. I might have overstated the lack of important places this street car might stop at. But in the end it's no more than a Milwaukee county buss on rails. That's all.

meh... don't get me wrong, i think electric busses are a HUGE improvement aesthetically over diesel busses which are just obnoxious, loud, fume-producing monsters that should be banished from our city forever... HOWEVER, there are several distinct advantages of rail-based systems over busses which even the quietest, most tram-looking modern bus cannot fulfill. it is a very strong argument, although i'll agree it is a bit difficult to understand unless you've lived in a city with rail transit (which, i think, most opponents to rail in Wisconsin probably haven't)... anyway, the point is that rail-based systems... even if they are not on right-of-way (which i hope hope HOPE the connector will be), offer a distinct presence of permanence to the city landscape.
as someone who has relied on public transit (both busses and rail), i can tell you that while there may be days when a train doesn't come to its scheduled stop for one reason or another (delay, breakdown, accident), due to the PERMANENT infrastructure which supports the system (tracks, platforms, stations, etc), there is an OVERWHELMING sense among passengers and potential passengers, that another train will always arrive at that given station. it might come late, it might even come really REALLY late, but it will arrive. the tracks in front of me say so. those tracks are for the train and for nothing else.

IN CONTRAST, when a bus does not arrive- and this happens quite a lot-- there is no indication that another bus may ever come. indeed, the only permanent fixture at most bus stops is a thin rectangular sign with the bus' number affixed, ratcheted to a metal post. that's all there is. and when there is construction on the street, that bus stop exists in the form of a cardboard sign that is tie-wrapped to an orange construction cone.
that is not permanence, my friend. signs printed on cardboard are not the markings of a city with a proper transit system. it doesn't work for residents and it certainly will never fly with visitors.

rail transit is permanent. "where is the transit stop?" someone from out of town might ask. do you explain to them that it is just over there by the orange construction cones? yes, just there.. that sign flapping in the wind?
or do you point to the steel tracks embedded in the ground and the bricks and mortar train station and platform and say "there. that's the street car stop"?

Ok, I've been a little hard on the whole light rail idea. I guess it's better than nothing even though I wish they would upgrade the old buses. Is there any way they could route some of the tracks through non road corridors? Maybe bulldoze a few houses, some underground tunnels, paths through parks, river paths... I don't know. It would just make it much more exciting if part of the path was along the lake or river....

Ok, I've been a little hard on the whole light rail idea. I guess it's better than nothing even though I wish they would upgrade the old buses. Is there any way they could route some of the tracks through non road corridors? Maybe bulldoze a few houses, some underground tunnels, paths through parks, river paths... I don't know. It would just make it much more exciting if part of the path was along the lake or river....

Well, I think that LRT as a system with tracks seperate from the streets would be ideal and is definitely something city leaders wanted long ago for out fair city, however opposition from right wing local radio talk show blowhards like Belling and Sykes put that plan on ice. I think a lot of people around here feel that LRT in Milwaukee is just this huge impossibility and that we just have to take the best we can get. Personally, I think street trams may lead to LRT and bigger and better rail transit but busses never led to anything better than busses...

I think a lot of people around here feel that ... we just have to take the best we can get. Personally, I think...busses never led to anything better than busses...

Busses can have a positive association with a great place, and even be one of its symbols.

You know what city this is in spite of the too familiar franchised store sign:

http://www.thelondondailynews.com/images/bus%20ox.jpg

Busses can have a positive association with a great place, and even be one of its symbols.

You know what city this is in spite of the too familiar franchised store sign:


Are you saying that 2 level busses are somehow unique to only one city? Would your argument work if you showed a small black taxi? Aren't those a symbol of London as well?

I get it, you really want Milwaukee to build a subway, because that's what makes everything in that picture possible. No great cities are built without rail.

Are you saying that 2 level busses are somehow unique to only one city? Would your argument work if you showed a small black taxi? Aren't those a symbol of London as well?

I get it, you really want Milwaukee to build a subway, because that's what makes everything in that picture possible. No great cities are built without rail.

I have been to London many many times and yes, the double-decker busses are an institution there (although you'll find them in NYC and other places as well), they are ultimately a supplement to the greater London transit network, whose backbone is the London Tube
http://londontravelogue.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/underground-sign_1.jpg
... a symbol of transit that is of far greater importance than the double-decker busses, simply because it moves vastly far more people than the busses do.

You are correct, though. "No Great Cities are Built Without Rail". That should be mandatorily tattooed on the foreheads of every person in SE Wisconsin.

If I were in charge, yes... Milwaukee would have a true underground subway system, because I feel that that is simply the single greatest form of urban transportation in existence. I also think we could afford to build one. I used to believe the planners and so-called pundits who claimed that such a system is simply too cost prohibitive... but after witnessing the price tags of the Marquette Interchange (nearly $1 bil) and the I-94 expansion (another $1 bil), and seeing the highway expenditure budgets every year from WisDOT, it is very clear that while Milwaukee could most certainly build a subway with the help of the state and feds, it does not do so because it lacks the political support and will, not the funds.

I'm with Danillo on this one. I'm also a strong rail supporter, but these kind of statements indeed make you seem out of touch. I'm quite familiar with history and how our transportation has progressed. You have the outcomes correct but you seem to not understand the forces that made them happen.



no, no, no.... Coldwake, you are ignoring history here I think-- until we forced the issue to be otherwise by building way way too many highways, the rail lines in this nation carried the economy -- and this was NOT THAT LONG AGO, either. i think it's fair for ajknee to be frustrated that our state highway spending is given a blank cheque with no questions asked, while entire rail projects that are a FRACTION of the price of just one interchange are scrutinized and politically bludgeoned and berated for "not supporting themselves" when none of our highways "support themselves" either.

speaking of driving on dirt roads... i think the fact that our highways ARE in such disrepair is a testament to the fact that we have, as a nation, COMPLETELY OVERBUILT our highway system and cannot keep up with the proper repairs. this would not have been a problem if they had balanced transit spending a bit more fairly between rail and roads.

I'm with Danillo on this one. I'm also a strong rail supporter, but these kind of statements indeed make you seem out of touch. I'm quite familiar with history and how our transportation has progressed. You have the outcomes correct but you seem to not understand the forces that made them happen.

I don't think it's out of touch, or even unreasonable to imagine living without a car. We did it for thousands of years. What I do find unreasonable is that everyone is EXPECTED to drive in this country and there is NO alternative. For the people who are disabled, lost their license, cannot afford a car, or choose not to drive the system we have is completely inadequate. Watching MORE roads get built while our transit system gets its funding pecked and chewed away at is like watching my own ostracism. It's enough to drive someone mad.

I will agree that letting the Zoo Interchange crumble is an extreme example, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility. And when this country shifts to its next preferred mode of transportation, you'd better believe they're going to start letting the roads crumble. They did it with canals, they did it with trains, and it's naive to think it won't happen to roads.

All I'm saying is that we need to start thinking more balanced...FAR more balanced. Otherwise, sometime in the future, you might get to see how the collapse the interstate will affect a region. My guess is when that happens it will only affect the people who are considered to be less than popular. Just a hunch.

I'm with Danillo on this one. I'm also a strong rail supporter, but these kind of statements indeed make you seem out of touch. I'm quite familiar with history and how our transportation has progressed. You have the outcomes correct but you seem to not understand the forces that made them happen.

oh, so you know then that the Federal Highway Act of 1956, which spent tens of billions of dollars on highway construction at that time, was a policy promoted for the sake of National Defense; that the military would need these roads to move munitions cross country in the event of a large scale war in America and that, due to the perceived nuclear threat, citizens would need to exit our nation's cities rapidly in the event of a first strike by the Soviet Union.
You also probably know that the federal government promoted the development and construction of less-densely populated areas, for the sake of "spreading out" the populous, so that any nuclear strikes by the USSR would have a lesser death toll effect on Americans than if the then current status of densely populated cities was maintained.
You will understand, of course, that to say our transportation system has "progressed" is a matter of great debate, then-- as it would appear that most of our highways were borne out of the motive of Fear than anything else.

Are you saying that 2 level busses are somehow unique to only one city? Would your argument work if you showed a small black taxi? Aren't those a symbol of London as well?

I get it, you really want Milwaukee to build a subway, because that's what makes everything in that picture possible. No great cities are built without rail.

Somehow, despite their occasional presence elsewhere, you correctly identified London on the basis of the bus alone, in spite of the absence of any other real clues.

My point, for those (very few I hope) who didn't quite get it, was that streetcars shouldn't be substituted for buses because of perceived image issues.

I'm sure that should Milwaukee ever achieve the density and congestion (and tax base) necessitating underground transit, that option would be considered practical. Having ridden subways for twenty-five years, I assure you the thrill wears off quickly. It's just the quickest way to get from point A to point B in some circumstances. When I had the time, and knew I could grab a seat, I always preferred the view out a bus window.

I'm sure that should Milwaukee ever achieve the density and congestion (and tax base) necessitating underground transit, that option would be considered practical. Having ridden subways for twenty-five years, I assure you the thrill wears off quickly. It's just the quickest way to get from point A to point B in some circumstances. When I had the time, and knew I could grab a seat, I always preferred the view out a bus window.

My argument for subways isn't that they provide some sort of amusement park ride-esque "thrill", but rather that they are fast, efficient and (perhaps most importantly) UNDERGROUND and therefore protected from the elements-- a factor of potentially deep significance for a city like Milwaukee which, although is in the midst of very lovely Spring weather, endures truly horrific winters on an annual basis.
Not to overstate the significance of our personal experiences with public transit, but I can tell you as someone whose relied on all varieties of transportation for work and school over the years: waiting for a subway train in a warm, dry, underground subway station is innumerably better an experience and more likely to draw riders than waiting at a cold, wet, exposed bus stop on the streets above. Bus shelters are not the same. It would help, though, if Milwaukee invested in some better protected bus shelters that were enclosed, larger, and possibly heated, so as to provide a better waiting experience for riders. Still, nothing compares to the comfort and convenience of an underground subway system, especially when the weather sucks.

My argument for subways ...that they are fast, efficient and (perhaps most importantly) UNDERGROUND and therefore protected from the elements-- a factor of potentially deep significance for a city like Milwaukee which, although is in the midst of very lovely Spring weather, endures truly horrific winters on an annual basis.
..waiting for a subway train in a warm, dry, underground subway station is innumerably better an experience and more likely to draw riders than waiting at a cold, wet, exposed bus stop on the streets above. Still, nothing compares to the comfort and convenience of an underground subway system, especially when the weather sucks.
The degree of wishfulness in even half-seriously discussing subways for Milwaukee is probably not entirely healthy, but, for the sake of argument, it should be pointed out that the great majority of subway riders would almost certainly have to take a bus to reach the stations in the first place. Also, the "weatherproofing" of a subway is the result of a very expensive to maintain system of drains and pumps which keeps the platforms and tunnels from becoming just another series of storm sewers.

The degree of wishfulness in even half-seriously discussing subways for Milwaukee is probably not entirely healthy, but, for the sake of argument, it should be pointed out that the great majority of subway riders would almost certainly have to take a bus to reach the stations in the first place. Also, the "weatherproofing" of a subway is the result of a very expensive to maintain system of drains and pumps which keeps the platforms and tunnels from becoming just another series of storm sewers.

for the record, as unlikely as it might seem today, Milwaukee actually did start to build a subway system prior to the first world war-- an effort cut short due to the sudden shift in resources to support the demand for war supplies.

for the record, as unlikely as it might seem today, Milwaukee actually did start to build a subway system prior to the first world war-- an effort cut short due to the sudden shift in resources to support the demand for war supplies.
It was actually just before the Great Depression, and it was only a half mile connection to the Public Service Building for the Milwaukee Interurban Line. Here's a news article about it:http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1368&dat=19770820&id=LNMVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=5BEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6371,3727842

Seems you've been down this road (or on the wrong track, as it were) before:
you're more than right, actually: there were not only plans but a Milwaukee subway system was actually UNDER CONSTRUCTION in the early 20th centuryNo, there were just plans to build an underground rail system. The "subway" you probably speak of was more or less a grade separated connection to the Public Service Building. It would have simply been grade-separated at Clybourn and Fifth Streets as well as the portion built under 6th Street. In fact, many of the grade separated lines such as on E. National Ave between Barclay and S. Water Street are even today referred to as "subways".

(Personal note: I have a recurring dream of opening a steel door and seeing a small section of subway tunnel, bathed in yellow light, at the western edge of downtown, so maybe I actually came across the small completed section, which was apparently in existence until freeway construction, somehow as a young child. Possible, I guess.)

for the record, as unlikely as it might seem today, Milwaukee actually did start to build a subway system prior to the first world war-- an effort cut short due to the sudden shift in resources to support the demand for war supplies.

No Max, that was a Subway PROPOSAL, not an actual construction project. It was proposed about 100 years ago by noted local architect and planner Alfred Clas as part of his vision for beautifying the Milwaukee River through Downtown (de-industiralizing and de-commericalizing the riverfront, narrowing it into a recreational canal by installing grand streets/promenades along both riverbanks and putting a subway beneath those new streets).

It only ever existed on paper. The First World War got in the way of further planning for it, let alone coming up with financing to build it or even a vote in the Common Council to build it. No construction took place for it. Ever.

There was a second subway proposal in the late-1920s that came from The Milwaukee Electric Railway & Light Company--to connect the western and southwestern interurban lines (Waukesha-Watertown; Burlington; and East Troy lines) with the Public Service Building interurban terminal in Downtown via a short tunnel (5 or so blocks long). Part of that subway tunnel project WAS built--only a few hundred feet of it. The project was halted at the beginning of the Great Depression and never completed. The short stretch of underground track was used for equipment storage instead. The tunnel would've been demolished by the time the first Marquette Interchange was built in the 1960s, if not sooner.

No Max, that was a Subway PROPOSAL, not an actual construction project. It was proposed about 100 years ago by noted local architect and planner Alfred Clas as part of his vision for beautifying the Milwaukee River through Downtown (de-industiralizing and de-commericalizing the riverfront, narrowing it into a recreational canal by installing grand streets/promenades along both riverbanks and putting a subway beneath those new streets).

It only ever existed on paper. The First World War got in the way of further planning for it, let alone coming up with financing to build it or even a vote in the Common Council to build it. No construction took place for it. Ever.

I have it on record directly from the mouths of former Mayor John Norquist and former DCD City Planning Director, Peter Park, that the archways under the Kilbourn bridge along the Milwaukee River were part of the entryways for the north-south leg of a subway that was under the fledgling stages of construction. The timing might be off (it could have been halted by the Great Depression and not WWI), but the fact is that Milwaukee was constructing elements of a subway system. If you're saying I'm wrong, you're saying Norquist and Peter Park are wrong.

There was a second subway proposal in the late-1920s that came from The Milwaukee Electric Railway & Light Company--to connect the western and southwestern interurban lines (Waukesha-Watertown; Burlington; and East Troy lines) with the Public Service Building interurban terminal in Downtown via a short tunnel (5 or so blocks long). Part of that subway tunnel project WAS built--only a few hundred feet of it. The project was halted at the beginning of the Great Depression and never completed. The short stretch of underground track was used for equipment storage instead. The tunnel would've been demolished by the time the first Marquette Interchange was built in the 1960s, if not sooner.

this would qualify as the beginning construction phase of a subway, I think. I never said that the subway was actually up and running.. just that it started to be built. it seems that the idea of a subway in Milwaukee is certainly not a new one-- nor a far-fetched one by any means.

I have it on record directly from the mouths of former Mayor John Norquist and former DCD City Planning Director, Peter Park, that the archways under the Kilbourn bridge along the Milwaukee River were part of the entryways for the north-south leg of a subway that was under the fledgling stages of construction. The timing might be off (it could have been halted by the Great Depression and not WWI), but the fact is that Milwaukee was constructing elements of a subway system. If you're saying I'm wrong, you're saying Norquist and Peter Park are wrong.
First, Norquist and Park, if you're citing them correctly, must have had a source for their information, since they weren't around at the time in question.

True, one can't rule out the possibility that the bridge planning coordinated with the TMER&L's dreams, given the date of the bridge's construction:

http://bridgehunter.com/photos/16/28/162872-M.jpg

So, you may be right, aside from all your incorrect assertions.

this would qualify as the beginning construction phase of a subway, I think. I never said that the subway was actually up and running.. just that it started to be built.

Yes, it would qualify as the beginning phase of a subway...but not the one you've been claiming (the riverfront one). Two different projects. Two different parts of town. One a proposal. One real. Both made at different times.

...

The City's Historic Designation Study Report for the Kilbourn Avenue Bridge (http://www.city.milwaukee.gov/ImageLibrary/Groups/cityHPC/DesignatedReports/vticnf/KilbournBridge.pdf) makes no mention of any subway construction being incorporated into the bridge's design.

Nor does the report for the State Street Bridge (http://www.city.milwaukee.gov/ImageLibrary/Groups/cityHPC/DesignatedReports/vticnf/StateStBridge.pdf) one block upriver, also built during the 1920s.

None of the various books or articles about the history of TMER&L ever mention anything about a riverfront subway--as a proposal or an actual construction project, either. Always mentioned--the Public Service Building-to-West Side tunnel.

Even going back to read old city history books from the 1910-1930s, nothing is ever mentioned about a riverfront subway being under construction.

There'd be newspaper articles. Common Council records. References in history books. Whenever I heard Norquist and Park talk about it, it was always spoken in terms of being just a proposal.

Port tries to land Gillen project
Contractor would build $5 million facility
The Business Journal of Milwaukee - by Pete Millard

The Port of Milwaukee is negotiating with Edward E. Gillen Co. to consolidate four of the marine contractor’s business units into a new $5 million office and construction storage complex on a 15-acre parcel along the Kinnickinnic River.

Before Gillen Co. agrees to develop its new facility on former Grand Trunk Western Railroad property on the north end of South Marina Drive, Gillen is seeking a long-term lease of more than 20 years for the city-owned land on the southwest corner of the port.

The company is seeking a long-term lease at less than market rates that will partly defray the cost of the state’s personal property paid by Gillen Co., said Richard Zirbel, the company’s president. Gillen Co. was formed in Milwaukee in 1894 and today has more than 200 employees and sales of more than $100 million.

“Our preferred site is on Marina Drive, but we’re looking at options at Waukegan Harbor in northeast Illinois,” Zirbel said.

http://www.milwaukeenewsbuzz.com/?p=65114

(May 6th, 2010) On Monday, the City Plan Commission passed height restrictions on buildings near the Milwaukee River Greenway Overlay Zone, the stretch of North Shore that is being revitalized into what some have called Milwaukee’s “Central Park.” Not everyone, however, agrees with the restrictions.

a model of cambridge commons dorm (photo provided by Jim Shields)
The demolition of the North Avenue dam about a decade ago revitalized the river. Neighbors praised the results – a health, free-flowing waterway and an influx of new fish species. Anglers donned hip-waders and waded in with fly rods to fish just minutes from Downtown.

Developers, architects and environmental groups agree on new plans to preserve the wooded banks that run from North Avenue to the city limits at Silver Spring Drive. They agree on preventing developers from clear-cutting the banks or eating them away with mismanaged storm water. But the Plan Commission’s latest decision – that no buildings can be higher than 45 feet within 100 feet of the river bank – is not embraced by all.

“If we always have this ceiling, it has the potential to become monotonous. You’re sort of crunching everything against that,” says Architect Scott Kindness, owner of Milwaukee’s Kindness Architecture and Planning in Milwaukee. He’s caught flak over a building’s height before as designer of the planned Transera Luxury Condominiums on North Prospect Avenue. Neighbors objected, saying the high-rise would block their views of the lake.

“Height is kind of misunderstood,” Kindness says. “Height is not necessarily a bad thing.” Restrictions lowering buildings could have the undesired effect of widening them and eating up more real estate, he says. “That’s kind of counter to the idea of using the land more efficiently.”

How do you like the view?
Supporters of the river preservation plan want to preserve what they call the river’s “view-shed,” what hikers, fishers and canoers see as they traverse the river and its banks. Should they see buildings? They do in the original Central Park in Manhattan, and everyone seems to like it. But the Overlay, introduced by Ald. Nik Kovac, would impose regulations prohibiting high-rises on the river.

“What we have is something remarkable that’s unique to Milwaukee,” he says. Inside the river corridor, “You don’t even know you’re in a city.”

Exceptions, however, are possible, according to Ann Brummit, director of the Milwaukee River Workgroup, a broad coalition of groups supporting the creation of a Milwaukee River Central Park. Developers can apply for exceptions to the code through the Board of Zoning Appeals, where the requests are aired in public hearings.

Kovac hopes, however, that the guidelines won’t require exceptions. “You can get a 700-student dorm within these guidelines,” he says, referring to the UWM Cambridge Commons dorm under construction just north of North Avenue on the east side of the river.

Kovac says the height restrictions aren’t much more severe than elsewhere in the city. They would be more relaxed along commercial corridors – Capitol Drive, North Avenue or Locust Street.

Jim Shields of HGA Architects, an associate professor of architecture at UW-Milwaukee, designed the dorm. The Mandel Group, developer for the project, made an agreement with Kovac to follow the Overlay guidelines the River Workgroup was drafting, according to Shields.

“There’s a reason we’re not calling it RiverView Two,” Shields says, because students living in the dorm with a height of less than 45 feet won’t be able to see the water, at least not in the summer. “That’s definitely a trade-off.”

RiverView Hall, directly across from Cambridge Commons on the west side of the river, opened in 2008 to the outrage of environmental groups and neighbors. It wouldn’t pass muster under the Overlay’s regulations for either its height or treatment of runoff.

A rare gem
The Overlay guidelines are the product of years of work by the River Workgroup, which brings together the Milwaukee Riverkeepers, Urban Ecology Center, River Revitalization Foundation and other organizations.

“It provides clear protection of an area that’s been transformed over the past two decades into a remarkable natural area,” say Ken Leinbach, executive director of the UEC. The banks and the trails that wind through them are a patchwork of public and private land, though about 70 percent of it belongs to the county park system. “There are all sorts of trails and each has its own story,” he says. “You might find a new little bridge down there and say, ‘Who made this?’”

He says the Overlay was a plan to codify the concerns of groups like UEC and the Riverkeepers. “Instead of just being reactive to every individual development,” Leinbach notes, the idea was to put into place “something that has teeth” and enjoys public support.

Gerry Broderick, county supervisor representing the city’s East Side and chairman of the county parks committee, says there’s broad county support for the Overlay. He favors the height restrictions. “That’s one of the great virtues” of the plan, he says. Broderick also tells NewsBuzz he doesn’t expect a county vote would be required on any of the guidelines.

Kindness and Bob Monnat, chief operating officer of Mandel Group, say they support the overall legislation despite reservations on the height restrictions. “If you’re in a city, you’re going to see buildings,” Monnat says. “For a healthy city, you want to encourage as much density as you can.”

The proposal passed by the City Plan Commission is scheduled for hearings before the Common Council’s Public Works Committee (May 12) and Zoning, Neighborhoods and Development Committee (May 18). With committee support, the full council would vote on the Overlay guidelines on May 25.

http://dailyreporter.com/blog/2010/05/07/wisdot-bidding-mitchell-interchange-project-early/

(May 7th 2010)
The state advanced the bid date for the up to $220 million reconstruction of the Mitchell Interchange to July 27.

The contract now out for bids will be the largest individual contract on the reconstruction of the Interstate 94 between Milwaukee and the Illinois state line, said William Mohr, major projects manager for the Wisconsin Department of Transportation. He said the contract cost is estimated to be between $195 million and $220 million.

“It’s a unique part of the project,” Mohr said. “It’s one of the largest interchanges in the state, behind the Marquette and the Zoo.”

The interchange in Milwaukee is between I-94 and Interstate 894. The borders of the project are 35th Street on the west, West Howard Avenue on the north, and College Avenue on the south. It does not include the interchange that leads into General Mitchell International Airport.

The project was originally scheduled to be bid in September, Mohr said, but WisDOT advanced the bid date because it may let contractors begin work on the project this fall instead of waiting until 2011.

There will be a mandatory pre-bid meeting for contractors on June 15, Mohr said, but the location has not yet been chosen.

The project will pose challenges with managing traffic and having enough space for contractors to stage equipment and materials, Mohr said. He said the state will take lessons learned on the Marquette Interchange reconstruction and use a similar approach on the Mitchell.

“It is a fantastic opportunity for all contractors to go after a job of this size,” he said, “and the Mitchell Interchange is just another step in the completion of the interstate project.”

wow, $220m and no one even blinks. Yet people are outraged at $90-some million for a streetcar and demanding all of this spending to stop.

So true, the hypocrisy in this region makes me want to puke some times. It's going to be interesting in 10 years when (hopefully) there's 2 or 3 more extensions of the streetcar and a majority of the people that post negative comments now are just swallowing their words.

Hopefully...otherwise I'm moving to Portland...

wow, $220m and no one even blinks. Yet people are outraged at $90-some million for a streetcar and demanding all of this spending to stop.
How many people and how much freight passes through the Mitchell on a daily basis? How critically important is that interchange to the economy of the ENTIRE eastern 1/3 of the state north of metro Milwaukeeland?

:|

Mike

wow, $220m and no one even blinks. Yet people are outraged at $90-some million for a streetcar and demanding all of this spending to stop.

i couldn't agree more. it literally makes me sick to my stomach that these so-called fiscally conservative Republicans cry murder when a rail project is proposed and yet they have no qualms about blowing TEN TIMES as much money on a highway project.
why is it that rail projects here have to scale down more and more and make concessions -- dropping from LRT to street tram finally down to a minimal street car that isn't even right of way while our highway projects get the five star, diamond-encrusted, platinum designs with full funding? it seems to me that the zoo interchange is now mostly fixed. they call it "temporary", but those look like pretty strong steel girders and cement pylons to me. i suspect they'll last another 40 years-- why is it that our DOT people have to drain all our transportation resources for highways and then claim to only have an anemic amount left for rail transit?

seriously, i'm with you. if Walker is elected governor and cuts the HSR and other train funding, i'm out of here. it will be the last straw.

How many people and how much freight passes through the Mitchell on a daily basis? How critically important is that interchange to the economy of the ENTIRE eastern 1/3 of the state north of metro Milwaukeeland?

:|

Mike
you are missing the point. nobody says these interchanges aren't important. but they are getting unnecessary funding that goes WAY beyond what lets them function as infrastructure.
how critically important is it to widen i-94 to eight lanes? how critically important is it to have decorative cement stampings at every bridge and interchange? how critically important is it to replace bridges that are in perfectly good shape and can carry traffic for years to come?

Rebuilding crumbling interchanges is different than building new transit systems from the ground up, with no financing in place to pay for the necessary subsidies to keep those systems running. People here need to stop being pissy about roads.

Rebuilding crumbling interchanges is different than building new transit systems from the ground up, with no financing in place to pay for the necessary subsidies to keep those systems running. People here need to stop being pissy about roads.

No, it's about the same as letting all of the freeways crumble and disappear leaving only state highways full of potholes and while spending decades building out a transit system in Milwaukee with High-Speed rail, numerous light rail lines, and dozens of streetcar lines. And then putting up a fuss when car drivers ask for one of their highways to be repaved and upgraded to four lanes at the same time as one of our light rail lines gets upgraded to an underground subway line without question because it's necessary. That'd be about the same thing.

Because I don't know much about it, where would the funding come from for a subway/light rail system within Milwaukee... is it the City? County? State? Federal? Mix?

I am a fan of mass-transit systems and they can have great benefit, but I think an argument can go a lot farther if you say (and prove) the benefits that rail can provide. Like it or not, the highways are here to stay. Bashing roads on this forum will not get more rail built and will only make the rail argument look a bit childish (Well... my brother got $10, why don't I get $10?). Finally, some points as to why roads get A LOT more funding than rail (and rightfully so).

Because I don't know much about it, where would the funding come from for a subway/light rail system within Milwaukee... is it the City? County? State? Federal? Mix?

I am a fan of mass-transit systems and they can have great benefit, but I think an argument can go a lot farther if you say (and prove) the benefits that rail can provide. Like it or not, the highways are here to stay. Bashing roads on this forum will not get more rail built and will only make the rail argument look a bit childish (Well... my brother got $10, why don't I get $10?). Finally, some points as to why roads get A LOT more funding than rail (and rightfully so).

Someone please correct me if I am mistaken, but much of the funding for the currently proposed routes is comming from federal funds appropriated to the city some 18 years ago. It has been sitting dormant all this time because the city could never agree on what to do with it until now.I believe the city is providing the rest to fill the stop-gaps, not sure where they are getting it from exactly however.

I saw somewhere, perhaps it was in one of the links posted here, that the lrt running through downtown was projected by the city to create over 20,000 jobs and spur some 900 new developments along its path. I don't recal seeing a timeline, but in any case those seem like incredibly unrealistic figures. Not that I don't think some new development and jobs will be created as a direct result, but those are numbers that I just can't fathom. If those numbers hold up, that is one hell of a return on investment that an expanded I94 corridor, considering its cost, will never be able to match.

I think it is important that we balance both roads and rail. Fact is roads aren't going to go away upon the birth of a good rail system, so we need to insure they remain in good condition. I live on the very outer fringes of the metro area, and anytime I want to go to MKE I will have to drive regardless of what kind of rail system is built, so I certainly don't want to see the freeways take a back seat for the sake of installing a rail system I would have to first drive to in order to utilize.

On the other hand, in this day and age, and with the desire to keep MKE progressing in its future developments, rail is an important part of that vision and should not be shunned out. To all the rail pundents out there, I say look at any city in the world that has installed a rail system and point out one that has failed in its objective (maybe I need to do my homework on this, but I don't recal ever hearing of one). I particularly think of Portland when comparing the idea of having rail in MKE opposed to not. Two similarly sized cities, but their success with the rail is a point of envy that they can use as clout in a variety of ways...whereas MKE continues to struggle on selling the idea because some people just can't see the bigger picture. People see this plan as a huge waste of money...I see it as a huge investment in the future.

I think it is important that we balance both roads and rail. Fact is roads aren't going to go away upon the birth of a good rail system, so we need to insure they remain in good condition. I live on the very outer fringes of the metro area, and anytime I want to go to MKE I will have to drive regardless of what kind of rail system is built, so I certainly don't want to see the freeways take a back seat for the sake of installing a rail system I would have to first drive to in order to utilize.



Ideally you would drive to your nearest commuter rail station and then take that into the city.

Oliver, most of us are NOT bashing roads, we are bashing, or angry towards those that think roads/highways are the ONLY transportation that should be improved. Im all for improvement and some highway development, BUT at the same time ALTERNATIVES need to not only be studied, but improved as well. This city, state, and nation is dependant TOO heavily on one mode of transportation - roads/highways. Its better to have a balanced transportation system across many modes. You wouldn't want a city to be heavily dependant on a single industry would you?

I live on the very outer fringes of the metro area, and anytime I want to go to MKE I will have to drive regardless of what kind of rail system is built, so I certainly don't want to see the freeways take a back seat for the sake of installing a rail system I would have to first drive to in order to utilize.


no offense, but you and others who live on the "outer fringes of the metro area" do so by choice. you live there BECAUSE of highways, not in spite of them. transit doesn't necessarily have to serve everyone.

Rebuilding crumbling interchanges is different than building new transit systems from the ground up, with no financing in place to pay for the necessary subsidies to keep those systems running. People here need to stop being pissy about roads.

were you listening to the dude's story? did you hear what he said? you're like a child who wandered into the middle of a movie...

crumbling interchanges: yes, replace them... BUT DO WE NEED TO DO SO WITH SUCH OPULENCE AND OVERENGINEERING?! our highway projects get the red carpet when it comes to funding.. "only the best" with decorative concrete and decorative railings as well as a plethora of other expensive design features. You Republicans complain about there being no money... yeah, that's because YOU SPENT IT ALL on expensive highway projects and the war in Iraq!


YOU need to stop being pissy about transit ALTERNATIVES, like rail!

I'm happy to hear that the streetcar transit should be coming to Milwaukee in about 3 years. Hopefully the routes are thought out well and we can get the KRM/RTA in SE Wisconsin.

I do wonder though, if Scott Walker wins the governor race, won't he just torpedo all of this progress? I know he is really anti anything democrats propose and seeks to destroy rail, planned parenthood, and anything city of Milwaukee.
What are his chances of winning vs Barrett this November? He should be a cause of concern for anyone hopping for progress in Milwaukee.

As far as construction goes, there seems to be plenty of it going on. Did the Moderne get approved for the loan it was seeking? I walked down by the humboldt street bridge and it looks like it should be done soon. Park east still looks depressing as ever. I'd be nice if we could have a couple 35+ story towers over there to make Milwaukee have more of a skyline. We desperately need a new tallest building and something good on that ugly barren surface parking lot across the street from the Hilton on Wisconsin ave. Oh catalyst, please come back to us.

You're right jehuty, Scott Walker's lack of vision or talent should be of major concern to anyone that cares about this city or state. I'm fairly certain we'd have to change the state motto from "Forward" to "Living in the Past."

The fact that the rail initiatives are primarily Federal in terms of funding makes it pretty tricky to pull the plug. And imagine the disastrous political position of saying you're responsible for halting hundreds of millions of dollars in development.

It's sad that comprehensive transit has to be such a politicized issue. In the end, all we want is a more livable, vibrant city. I for one will certainly be looking to relocate should all the progress we've seen be reversed (as will many more). Time to stop braindrain in this town, don't you think?

no offense, but you and others who live on the "outer fringes of the metro area" do so by choice. you live there BECAUSE of highways, not in spite of them. transit doesn't necessarily have to serve everyone.

I wasn'ty implying that I think the rails need to service me...I would never expect them to so long as I am where I am. And dually, I am all for rail...I don't think it can come fast enough. My point is that roads still serve an important function to the entire area, more so than rail probablly ever will, so we can't just ignore what they really mean to the vitality of our area.

I just don't see why there is even a conflict here between roads and rail. I think everyone ought to be pushing for both...except of course all you cronies who can go through life w/o either :D

My point is that roads still serve an important function to the entire area, more so than rail probablly ever will, so we can't just ignore what they really mean to the vitality of our area.

I would like to see how many people would share this opinion if the cost of gasoline went over $5 a gallon.

Besides the point. I have been a long time reader and appreciator of the blogs, and now I'm excited to start contributing once in while. Hi everyone!

Welcome mkeeast, way to jump into the middle of the flames. I noticed that little interjection in =dba=Ronin's post too but decided to ignore it this time. Thanks for covering me, lol.

Welcome to the forum mkeeast!

I knew including that blurb in my post would cause some outcries! Good thing I went back and put in the word "probablly" or I am sure I would have caught some real hell!!

I think you guys are taking me a bit out of context though. By all accounts of the arguments going against my point, it seems as though everyone thinks someday we will all be riding trains to go wherever we want/need. Do you really belive that we are just going to tear up ALL the roads and replace them with rails? Lets be sensible here. I am not tyring to downplay the role trains will play, but you all seem hell bent on insisting roads are useless. I am just trying to point out that until the day comes when Milwaukee turns into the Venice of trains, like it or not we are all going to need roads...lots of them...a lot more than we will tracks and they will be used by a lot more people for a long time to come. So long as this antiquated system of paved throughways is still part of our lives, we ought not put them in the backseat (or, should I say caboose?)

Anywhoo...I don't think this is the appropriate thread to debate this in, so I will refrain from dragging this out any further. If you want to counter my post, let's move this into a more suitable thread and let this one carry on with its intended purpose.

=dba=Ronin, I don't agree with you but I appreciate the rationality of your comments. If conservatives could be more like you, our system of government might actually function the way it was intended.

Also, it looks like Silver City is moving forward with its affordable housing project. Generally I think it's a good project.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/93247149.html

You Republicans complain about there being no money... yeah, that's because YOU SPENT IT ALL on expensive highway projects and the war in Iraq!


YOU need to stop being pissy about transit ALTERNATIVES, like rail!

Whoa cowboy, settle down. :chill:

First, as stated many times before, the highway fund is by far mostly paid for through state and federal fees and taxes of drivers (gas taxes, license fees, etc).

Second, we'd have even more of it if Doyle didn't steal from the transportation fund so there'd be no complaining about that being gone... but I digress.

Third, um, wait... what?? What the heck does the Iraq war have to do with this??

Fourth, THE PEOPLE BEING PISSY ARE USUALLY THE ONES THAT ARE THROWING RANDOM CAPS LOCK INTO THEIR POSTS. Just sayin'...

The highway fund doesn't even begin to cover the vast amount of local roads that need repair and replacement. Those are straight off the property tax.

You Republicans complain about there being no money... yeah, that's because YOU SPENT IT ALL on expensive highway projects and the war in Iraq!


YOU need to stop being pissy about transit ALTERNATIVES, like rail!
As a Republican, you're very out of touch with that statement. I've been pro-rail on these forums and have wrote a few articles for my newspaper about the importance of light rail and other transit options in this region. I've even backed a 1 cent sales tax increase, I must be a moderate Republican lol.

I forgive you though. :)

Moderne high-rise remains on hold pending HUD loan guarantee OK
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel
May 11, 2010 7:15 a.m.


The groundbreaking for downtown's Moderne high-rise apartment project remains delayed as developer Rick Barrett continues to wait for final approval from the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development for a loan guarantee.

HUD's Milwaukee office granted preliminary approval last fall for the guarantee, which applies to a $41.4 million loan from the AFL-CIO Housing Investment Trust.

The Common Council in November approved $9.3 million in city loans for the Moderne. It will have 203 apartments and 14 condos at the southwest corner of W. Juneau Ave. and N. Old World 3rd St.

Barrett filed additional paperwork with HUD, but agency officials since have asked for more information. Barrett told me Monday he continues to work with agency officials to meet those requests. He also remains confident that final approval will occur.

"The process requires so much patience," Barrett said. "It is what it is."

Along with the loans, the Moderne's financing will have $4.3 million in equity financing from Barrett and his partners. The project will take about two years to complete.

Vassallo's Mocha downtown coffee shop closes, Subway to replace it
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel
May 10, 2010


Mocha...A Coffee Bistro, located at the northeast corner of W. Wisconsin and N. Plankinton avenues, has closed, and will be replaced by a Subway restaurant, it was announced Monday.

Mocha was among several businesses operated by John Vassallo, including Mo's Irish Pub and Mo's...A Place for Steaks.

The closing of Mocha was announced by Towne Investments, which operates the building where the coffee shop opened in 2005. The former Mocha space will be remodeled before Subway opens later this summer, said John Kersey, Towne president.

The restaurant will be called Subway Cafe, and will include coffee drinks as well as sandwiches, Kersey said, in a statement. It is a new format, and will be just the fourth Subway Cafe in North America, and the first in the Midwest.

Chicago-based Harris Bank last year filed a foreclosure suit against Vassallo’s investors group, Mostreet LLC, over buildings that Mostreet owns nearby at 725 N. Plankinton Ave. and 142 W. Wisconsin Ave.

A $5.25 million judgment was granted to Harris Bank, but a settlement was reached in the case, according to online court records.

:bash:

At least we're not left wondering about the Moderne... even if we have no new info I feel better with the communication. Barrett still seems upbeat too (although that doesn't necessarily mean anything by itself).

The highway fund doesn't even begin to cover the vast amount of local roads that need repair and replacement. Those are straight off the property tax.

And? You propose to do what... grind up all local roads and replace it with bike paths and light rail lines? We could completely ban all cars from the city! We'd be a green mecca!

Local roads are a neccessity. Rail and arguably even highways are not. Highways are almost completely paid for by highway users. Rail? Well... not so much.

*I support rail.* I think we need it for a vibrant city. I think it will spur development. But stop comparing it to highways. Make your arguments on the merit of rail and rail alone.

This is like the 12th time now I've posted that and still it keeps being brought up like we haven't discussed it yet.

=dba=Ronin, I don't agree with you but I appreciate the rationality of your comments. If conservatives could be more like you, our system of government might actually function the way it was intended.
Yeah, 'cuz leftists are so rational.:lol:

Yeah, 'cuz leftists are so rational.:lol:

:down:




at least leftists tend to think of what's good for society as opposed to what's only in their own selfish benefit.

And? You propose to do what... grind up all local roads and replace it with bike paths and light rail lines? We could completely ban all cars from the city! We'd be a green mecca!

Local roads are a neccessity. Rail and arguably even highways are not. Highways are almost completely paid for by highway users. Rail? Well... not so much.

*I support rail.* I think we need it for a vibrant city. I think it will spur development. But stop comparing it to highways. Make your arguments on the merit of rail and rail alone.

This is like the 12th time now I've posted that and still it keeps being brought up like we haven't discussed it yet.


why does it always have to be so hot/cold, so black/white with you?
nobody is arguing to tear up the roads or even suggesting that roads are not a necessity. I don't know why you and others are trying to place this rhetoric in the mouths of rail supporters. all we are calling for is a balanced system of infrastructure. to say that there is too much funding going into highway construction and to say that the budget for transportation is heavily lopsided toward roads and highways is not saying we think that we want roads and highways to go away.. of course, they are a critical element of our transportation fabric, however it is most likely true that there are too many and too overly engineered and therefore overly expensive highways in this nation while there is far too little (especially in Wisconsin) in terms of transit alternatives.

And? You propose to do what... grind up all local roads and replace it with bike paths and light rail lines? We could completely ban all cars from the city! We'd be a green mecca!

No, I didn't propose that at all. I was just pointing out that roads aren't covered by the highway fund (not even close), so people should stop saying that they are...and admit that they cost tax dollars (from property and sales tax, in addition to the gas tax and other fees). Lots of them.

^^Although highways are vital, and I am not making the argument that we shouldn't be funding them, the idea that they are paid for through user fees is fundamentally flawed. The percentage of federal highway construction costs paid by user fees (excluding maintenance, which in Milwaukee, comes out of the County's general budget) has been decreasing rapidly since 2000, and now hovers around 51%. See this article:

http://subsidyscope.com/transportation/highways/funding/

State funding is another issue, and Wisconsin, the state's portion of the construction money (again, not operations and maintenance), does come from the gas tax, as we all know.

And I'm saying this as a transportation engineer, so theoretically highway funding keeps me employed, lest anyone question my biases.

j-hah - Please provide links to the articles you post.

:down:




at least leftists tend to think of what's good for society as opposed to what's only in their own selfish benefit.

You need to modify that to say, "leftists spend tax payers money, according to what THEY think is good for society as opposed to letting people keep more of their money and spend it as they wish"

Don't reply with a rant to this one because I don't want to waste everyone's time here with the merits of capitalism vs socialism.

Without getting in to a popularity contest over tranist options, you can safely say adding, expanding, and maintaining any system, (trains, highways, buses, airports, etc), will cause some funding deficit. The question is where do you make up that deficit. Do you transfer funds from one system to another (ex highway to train), do you raise taxes, do you raise fees, do you cut other government services (police, school, fire, public works, parks, buses)? None of those choices are popular, and you always end up with two faced politicians who make promises they either can never fill, or never intend to honor. There is one other possibility: if you plan it just right, the tax base grows at the right rate so these hard choices do not to be made. The problem is when you do it right, politicians just can't help themselves and find ways to create new deficits that must be filled.

Max, I'm a rail supporter... so I'm not "putting things in the mouths of rail supporters" except my own.

MilwaukeeD, no one was talking about funding local roads, you brought them up. ;)

Max, I'm not saying it is black and white. In fact, I never even disagreed with you that our highways are over engineered and over built. (a fact I think you missed) All I have been (for years) been saying is that highways are completely seperate from rail yet you keep trying to connect them.

And MarqKev, I appreciate your personal experiences but you just gave us a national graph when we're talking about Wisconsin. In WI almost all of the money for highways is from user fees (state and fed).

Why we waste so much time rehashing this same conversation over and over is beyond me.

^^ I agree not to keep rehashing this argument, so to quickly clarify. The article I sent was in reference to all federal funds used on the highway system. So any federal funds that are used to construct highways in Wisconsin are on 51% from user fees. Sorry I didn't state that correctly initially.

How many people do you think would be on board on putting up tollways in Milwaukee county to pay for roads/highways and county mass transit need? I mean, its only a matter of time before we get tolls in south eastern anyways. Would the revenue from the tolls be enough to lower property taxes amongst others?

And finally, Doyle is already hated in much of the state, couldn't he as a last act order tolls to be put in Milwaukee county? Since much of the state dislikes Milwaukee i'd guess that not many of our state politicians would be opposed to this (except Ozaukee and especially Waukesha counties).

I don't know about Milwaukee County, but I I've always thought that we need tolls on 94 between Milwaukee and Illinois. There are so many people form Illinois that use that stretch of roadway, and they should help pay for it. I realize we'd get less federal funds, but I'm willing to bet we'd more than make that up in tolls (and it wouldn't just be Wisconsinites paying it).

I'd be for tolls in the metro area-- especially for outlying suburbs and extra high tolls for cargo trucks that are mostly responsible for the breakdown of the pavement on the highways.
i think it's hard to find a more equitable tax / user fee than tolls. it's incredibly fair: if you use this road, you pay for it.

I'd be for tolls in the metro area-- especially for outlying suburbs and extra high tolls for cargo trucks that are mostly responsible for the breakdown of the pavement on the highways.
i think it's hard to find a more equitable tax / user fee than tolls. it's incredibly fair: if you use this road, you pay for it.
(See: 'fuel tax')

I can also envision 'general fund' taxes helping to pay for roads and other transport in that one's level of personal benefit from the transport network is pretty directly proportional to his/her own level of taxable economic activity.

Mike

Milwaukee Alderman Robert Bauman has joined the call to have a high-speed rail station built in Wauwatosa, rather than in Brookfield.

The planned high-speed passenger rail route between Madison and Milwaukee has stations planned in Milwaukee, Brookfield, Oconomowoc, Watertown and Madison.

Milwaukee County Clerk Joe Czarnezki is suggesting one or both of the proposed high-speed rail stations in Waukesha County be eliminated in favor of a station in Wauwatosa. Bauman said if there is land available near Mayfair Road in Wauwatosa, he would support that site over a station on Brookfield Road.

Bauman said a station on Mayfair is still far enough west to serve eastern Waukesha County residents.

“Brookfield Road is only three or four miles down the road from this site,” he said.

The Daily Reporter
http://dailyreporter.com/blog/2010/05/11/alderman-joins-call-for-wauwatosa-station/

http://dailyreporter.com/files/2010/05/before.gif
http://dailyreporter.com/files/2010/05/after.gif

The Daily Reporter
http://dailyreporter.com/blog/2010/05/07/streetcar-renderings-beg-question-where-will-we-park-in-the-future/

I’m glad Milwaukee’s streetcar stops close to The Daily Reporter offices, because the project renderings show a high-rise standing in our parking lot.

The city’s handout about the streetcar project is peppered with renderings of digital trolleys rolling through actual photos of city landmarks. There’s a purple streetcar outside of the Milwaukee Intermodal Station and a teal trolley rolling past the freemasons building on Van Buren Street.

But the renderings also show new digital buildings that magically appear downtown thanks to the streetcar greasing the wheels of new growth. The post office east of the intermodal station is replaced with a building that has a lot more windows. There’s a new 10- or 12-story building with a sushi restaurant in the first floor across Van Buren from the freemasons’ building.

There’s also a big blue high-rise sprouting from the cracking pavement where I park everyday. And there’s that purple streetcar again.

At least in the future rendering world, our office at 225 E. Michigan St. is going to see a lot of changes. This new blue building apparently will spur WisDOT to redesign I-94 just south of us to have “Third Ward” signs and stylish girders. A rendering showing the future of Broadway one block up from us has a new coffee shop and a steakhouse with a blue trolley rolling by. Hey, DPW, why don’t you get rid of that “No Left Turn” sign while you’re at it?

It doesn’t matter. I guess I’ll be leaving my car at home in this future Milwaukee and hopping the teal line to work, which will save me $100 a month on parking.

I just hope the people who work in our design department don’t see this. That blue building is going to block their view.

Milwaukee Alderman Robert Bauman has joined the call to have a high-speed rail station built in Wauwatosa, rather than in Brookfield.

The planned high-speed passenger rail route between Madison and Milwaukee has stations planned in Milwaukee, Brookfield, Oconomowoc, Watertown and Madison.

Milwaukee County Clerk Joe Czarnezki is suggesting one or both of the proposed high-speed rail stations in Waukesha County be eliminated in favor of a station in Wauwatosa. Bauman said if there is land available near Mayfair Road in Wauwatosa, he would support that site over a station on Brookfield Road.

Bauman said a station on Mayfair is still far enough west to serve eastern Waukesha County residents.

“Brookfield Road is only three or four miles down the road from this site,” he said.

The Daily Reporter
http://dailyreporter.com/blog/2010/05/11/alderman-joins-call-for-wauwatosa-station/

it's a damn shame they aren't using the rail lines that go through downtown Waukesha. that would be such a perfect city for the train to stop in and hopefully some sort of commuter train link can eventually connect Waukesha to Milwaukee in the future.

it's a damn shame they aren't using the rail lines that go through downtown Waukesha. that would be such a perfect city for the train to stop in and hopefully some sort of commuter train link can eventually connect Waukesha to Milwaukee in the future.

I really hope they plan on having the "high speed" rail stops at locations that would benefit people. I.E. Park and rides, Malls, and so on. It's a shame they won't have a stop at Miller Park!!!:ohno:

http://dailyreporter.com/files/2010/05/before.gif
http://dailyreporter.com/files/2010/05/after.gif

The Daily Reporter
http://dailyreporter.com/blog/2010/05/07/streetcar-renderings-beg-question-where-will-we-park-in-the-future/

I’m glad Milwaukee’s streetcar stops close to The Daily Reporter offices, because the project renderings show a high-rise standing in our parking lot.

The city’s handout about the streetcar project is peppered with renderings of digital trolleys rolling through actual photos of city landmarks. There’s a purple streetcar outside of the Milwaukee Intermodal Station and a teal trolley rolling past the freemasons building on Van Buren Street.

But the renderings also show new digital buildings that magically appear downtown thanks to the streetcar greasing the wheels of new growth. The post office east of the intermodal station is replaced with a building that has a lot more windows. There’s a new 10- or 12-story building with a sushi restaurant in the first floor across Van Buren from the freemasons’ building.

There’s also a big blue high-rise sprouting from the cracking pavement where I park everyday. And there’s that purple streetcar again.

At least in the future rendering world, our office at 225 E. Michigan St. is going to see a lot of changes. This new blue building apparently will spur WisDOT to redesign I-94 just south of us to have “Third Ward” signs and stylish girders. A rendering showing the future of Broadway one block up from us has a new coffee shop and a steakhouse with a blue trolley rolling by. Hey, DPW, why don’t you get rid of that “No Left Turn” sign while you’re at it?

It doesn’t matter. I guess I’ll be leaving my car at home in this future Milwaukee and hopping the teal line to work, which will save me $100 a month on parking.

I just hope the people who work in our design department don’t see this. That blue building is going to block their view.

it'd be nice if journalists were as smart as they are sarcastic.
that isn't I-94 in the picture but rather 794 and I would imagine the designer took its future replacement into consideration when making these renderings.

it'd be nice if journalists were as smart as they are sarcastic.
that isn't I-94 in the picture but rather 794 and I would imagine the designer took its future replacement into consideration when making these renderings.

It was a blog entry... So I guess they're held at a lower standard of journalism... :cheers:

(See: 'fuel tax')

I can also envision 'general fund' taxes helping to pay for roads and other transport in that one's level of personal benefit from the transport network is pretty directly proportional to his/her own level of taxable economic activity.

Mike


nope. still not as fair or accurate of a tax as a toll. just because you buy gasoline doesn't mean you use the highways. in fact, since cars get better mileage on the highways than they do when they stop and go on city streets, highway drivers are proportionately paying less for highways than street drivers.

i can think of no tax concept more fair than a tollway. if you use THIS road, you pay for THIS road. period.

If you're concerned for the safety of pedestrians and bicyclists now just wait until there is a toll up on the freeways in the city. (well, tollways by that point) You'll have city streets crammed with people trying to avoid the highway. Our city isn't very big so it wouldn't take much longer to take city streets to get around. That's great for tolling flat landers and trucks but overall it's just going to crowd the rest of the streets with thru traffic. Not to mention it would be a big deterrant for visitors. "Milwaukee was ok, but can you believe all those tolls!" Only a city like Chicago can get away with that and even they only have it on their outer ring highways.

If you're concerned for the safety of pedestrians and bicyclists now just wait until there is a toll up on the freeways in the city. (well, tollways by that point) You'll have city streets crammed with people trying to avoid the highway. Our city isn't very big so it wouldn't take much longer to take city streets to get around. That's great for tolling flat landers and trucks but overall it's just going to crowd the rest of the streets with thru traffic. Not to mention it would be a big deterrant for visitors. "Milwaukee was ok, but can you believe all those tolls!" Only a city like Chicago can get away with that and even they only have it on their outer ring highways.

I can't see any logical person disliking a city because it has tolled highways. Not to mention if we're talking about the I94 stretch to Illinois, 9/10 of it is out of the city limits.

If you're concerned for the safety of pedestrians and bicyclists now just wait until there is a toll up on the freeways in the city. (well, tollways by that point) You'll have city streets crammed with people trying to avoid the highway. Our city isn't very big so it wouldn't take much longer to take city streets to get around. That's great for tolling flat landers and trucks but overall it's just going to crowd the rest of the streets with thru traffic. Not to mention it would be a big deterrant for visitors. "Milwaukee was ok, but can you believe all those tolls!" Only a city like Chicago can get away with that and even they only have it on their outer ring highways.

first of all, trucks wouldn't be able to use all these city streets you speak of because of weight limits and height restrictions. they would have to stick to the arterials and even then-- just like in other cities with tolls-- they would still stay on the highways. tolls work well in other places, and they would work just fine here. your 'gloom and doom' scenario of packed streets and fleeing tourists is unfounded on any data.
besides, if we're really getting lots of tourists here using our highways and trucks passing through-- then they SHOULD be paying for our highways, since they are the ones using them! with the advent of newer technologies like the "iPass", paying tolls would be a simple, swift process that people wouldn't even have to think about when driving through.

A lot of the stops people here are suggesting are really more the domain of commuter rail. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of options for routes.

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/localgov/docs/railmap.pdf

The fast rail lines should have as few stops as possible.

Max, your unwavering, illogical, outright hatred of the automobile without any regard for those who rely on, and even love both them and the freedom they afford, astounds me.

besides, if we're really getting lots of tourists here using our highways and trucks passing through-- then they SHOULD be paying for our highways, since they are the ones using them!
Um, they ARE already! It is called the gas tax. If we need more funds for highways, we should just raise the gas tax. The gas tax also has the added benefit of encouraging people to have fuel-efficient cars, which I think is a good thing for our country overall. Tolls don't have the effect of charging gas-guzzlers more per mile than fuel misers.

Another Proposed Office Building:

Developers Irgens, Lee team on downtown Milwaukee office building
Six projects proposed, only one likely to be built
The Business Journal of Milwaukee - by Pete Millard

Prominent Milwaukee real estate developers Joel Lee and Mark Irgens have teamed to build an office building in downtown Milwaukee across the street from The Pfister Hotel.

Prominent Milwaukee real estate developers Joel Lee of Van Buren Management Inc. and Mark Irgens of Irgens Development Partners LLC have teamed to build an office building in downtown Milwaukee, the sixth proposed office project for the city’s central business district.

Given the tough economic conditions, the high level of pre-construction leasing necessary to secure financing and the few large tenants looking for space, most real estate observers predict that it is likely only one of the projects will be built. Together, Lee’s Van Buren Management Inc. and Irgens Development Partners LLC, Wauwatosa, bring development expertise and financial clout to the fight that other developers may have a hard time matching, said a Milwaukee real estate lawyer working on a competing proposal.

Real estate sources said a project would likely need to be up to 80 percent pre-leased before it would be able to secure financing in the current economic environment.

The Lee/Irgens site, across from The Pfister Hotel, 424 E. Wisconsin Ave., on East Mason Street between North Jefferson and Jackson streets, is one of six potential locations under consideration for the city’s next office development, according to Business Journal real estate sources.

Ned Purtell, an office broker and partner at RFP Commercial Inc., said plans for a new downtown project will advance over the next 12 to 18 months if at least two of the three prospective anchor tenants commit to a developer.

The likely office tenants in the hunt for new space include law firms Godfrey & Kahn SC and von Briesen & Roper SC, and accounting firm Baker Tilly Virchow Krause LP. The three firms each are looking for 50,000 to 80,000 square feet. The engineering firm CH2M Hill also is mentioned as a relocation candidate. CH2M leases 23,000 square feet at Honey Creek Corporate Park, Milwaukee, which also is the current office location of Baker Tilly.

In addition to the Irgens/Lee location, Bruce Westling, president of the NAI MLG Commercial real estate brokerage in Milwaukee, is partnering with developer Gary Grunau on a proposed 15-story office and parking structure near the northwest corner of East Knapp and North Water streets that would also include a Marcus Cinemas.

Other proposed new office buildings are from Weas Development, Milwaukee, with a site at the southeast corner of Broadway and East Michigan Street; Next Generation Real Estate Inc., along East Wisconsin Avenue between Broadway and North Milwaukee Street; Hammes Co., Brookfield, with a site near the corner of East Michigan and North Van Buren streets next to the U.S. Bank tower; and the Milwaukee Athletic Club at Broadway and Mason that was working with Irgens Development Partners Inc. prior to Irgens joining forces with Lee.

Irgens and Lee are two of the most experienced office developers in Milwaukee in the last 30 years. Van Buren Management controls a commercial real estate portfolio of more than 2 million square feet in Milwaukee. The firm’s greatest concentration of assets includes 12 buildings with more than 900,000 square feet in downtown’s East Town area. Van Buren Management also controls more than 2,500 downtown parking stalls.

Irgens Development has constructed 28 office projects in Wisconsin and Arizona and 13 medical building developments in Wisconsin, Arizona and Illinois. Less than eight years ago, Irgens Development constructed the $47 million, 227,000-square-foot, Class A office space at 875 E. Wisconsin Ave. with 444 parking stalls.

Mark Irgens and Joel Lee could not be reached for comment to discuss their partnership. Others contacted by The Business Journal but unavailable to discuss their deals included Rick Bliss, managing partner of Godfrey & Kahn; Kevin Heppner, Wisconsin regional manager for Baker Tilly; Hammes Co.; and Weas Development.

Randall Crocker, managing partner of von Briesen, said his firm received six proposals in late 2009. Crocker did not include Triple Net Properties, which owns The 411 Building, 411 E. Wisconsin Ave., as one of his firm’s six options. The von Briesen law firm has 200 employees and leases 50,000 square feet at The 411 Building.

Crocker confirmed that he was talking with Irgens and Lee about their project.

“We’ve targeted the end of the third quarter this year for making a decision,” Crocker said.

Westling and some Milwaukee officials view Westling’s site on the Milwaukee River as perhaps the most desirable in the corridor that was cleared by the demolition of the Park East freeway in 2003.

Westling has met with the prospective tenants looking at downtown Milwaukee and is confident his Park East corridor site offers the city the most catalytic advantages of all the potential sites.

“We’ll bring a project to the table that helps the city accomplish its planning goals in the Park East and along the river,” Westling said.

Westling has been working on his development for months and is in the final stages of pricing out the project that will allow him to soon present leasing proposals.

“The window of opportunity for locking in low construction and materials costs will remain open over the next 12 months; that will reduce our bottom line, making the project more attractive,” Westling said.

Michael Levine, a partner in the Next Generation Real Estate project on East Wisconsin Avenue, expects Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett’s administration to be willing to provide tax incremental financing or other financial support for the next office tower.

“It will be hard to make a new development work without city assistance because of the low lease rates downtown,” said Levine, whose site in the middle of a historic district will require city approvals to demolish buildings on Broadway and North Milwaukee Street.

Link:
http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2010/05/17/story1.html?b=1274068800%5E3348451

Um, they ARE already! It is called the gas tax. If we need more funds for highways, we should just raise the gas tax. The gas tax also has the added benefit of encouraging people to have fuel-efficient cars, which I think is a good thing for our country overall. Tolls don't have the effect of charging gas-guzzlers more per mile than fuel misers.

wrong.

http://subsidyscope.com/transportation/highways/funding/

Um, they ARE already! It is called the gas tax. If we need more funds for highways, we should just raise the gas tax. The gas tax also has the added benefit of encouraging people to have fuel-efficient cars, which I think is a good thing for our country overall. Tolls don't have the effect of charging gas-guzzlers more per mile than fuel misers.

It is funny because while I drive to work every day and have to pay the gas tax it is never spent on any of the roads I drive on, instead most of the roads I drive on are paid for right off of my property tax bill. Over the last 2 weeks all my my gas tax has gone to roads I have not driven on, it is being diverted to pay for highways. Does that sound like a real user fee? I think that tolls are necessary as a user fee to partially pay the high cost for highways, and that local roads should receive equal benefits from the gas tax proportional to the amount of traffic they handle. It would be nice if we could get local road construction costs off of the property tax bill, and make it so that those that drive more pay more.

Another Proposed Office Building:

Developers Irgens, Lee team on downtown Milwaukee office building
Six projects proposed, only one likely to be built
The Business Journal of Milwaukee - by Pete Millard

Prominent Milwaukee real estate developers Joel Lee and Mark Irgens have teamed to build an office building in downtown Milwaukee across the street from The Pfister Hotel.

Prominent Milwaukee real estate developers Joel Lee of Van Buren Management Inc. and Mark Irgens of Irgens Development Partners LLC have teamed to build an office building in downtown Milwaukee, the sixth proposed office project for the city’s central business district.

Given the tough economic conditions, the high level of pre-construction leasing necessary to secure financing and the few large tenants looking for space, most real estate observers predict that it is likely only one of the projects will be built. Together, Lee’s Van Buren Management Inc. and Irgens Development Partners LLC, Wauwatosa, bring development expertise and financial clout to the fight that other developers may have a hard time matching, said a Milwaukee real estate lawyer working on a competing proposal.

Real estate sources said a project would likely need to be up to 80 percent pre-leased before it would be able to secure financing in the current economic environment.

The Lee/Irgens site, across from The Pfister Hotel, 424 E. Wisconsin Ave., on East Mason Street between North Jefferson and Jackson streets, is one of six potential locations under consideration for the city’s next office development, according to Business Journal real estate sources.

Ned Purtell, an office broker and partner at RFP Commercial Inc., said plans for a new downtown project will advance over the next 12 to 18 months if at least two of the three prospective anchor tenants commit to a developer.

The likely office tenants in the hunt for new space include law firms Godfrey & Kahn SC and von Briesen & Roper SC, and accounting firm Baker Tilly Virchow Krause LP. The three firms each are looking for 50,000 to 80,000 square feet. The engineering firm CH2M Hill also is mentioned as a relocation candidate. CH2M leases 23,000 square feet at Honey Creek Corporate Park, Milwaukee, which also is the current office location of Baker Tilly.

In addition to the Irgens/Lee location, Bruce Westling, president of the NAI MLG Commercial real estate brokerage in Milwaukee, is partnering with developer Gary Grunau on a proposed 15-story office and parking structure near the northwest corner of East Knapp and North Water streets that would also include a Marcus Cinemas.

Other proposed new office buildings are from Weas Development, Milwaukee, with a site at the southeast corner of Broadway and East Michigan Street; Next Generation Real Estate Inc., along East Wisconsin Avenue between Broadway and North Milwaukee Street; Hammes Co., Brookfield, with a site near the corner of East Michigan and North Van Buren streets next to the U.S. Bank tower; and the Milwaukee Athletic Club at Broadway and Mason that was working with Irgens Development Partners Inc. prior to Irgens joining forces with Lee.

Irgens and Lee are two of the most experienced office developers in Milwaukee in the last 30 years. Van Buren Management controls a commercial real estate portfolio of more than 2 million square feet in Milwaukee. The firm’s greatest concentration of assets includes 12 buildings with more than 900,000 square feet in downtown’s East Town area. Van Buren Management also controls more than 2,500 downtown parking stalls.

Irgens Development has constructed 28 office projects in Wisconsin and Arizona and 13 medical building developments in Wisconsin, Arizona and Illinois. Less than eight years ago, Irgens Development constructed the $47 million, 227,000-square-foot, Class A office space at 875 E. Wisconsin Ave. with 444 parking stalls.

Mark Irgens and Joel Lee could not be reached for comment to discuss their partnership. Others contacted by The Business Journal but unavailable to discuss their deals included Rick Bliss, managing partner of Godfrey & Kahn; Kevin Heppner, Wisconsin regional manager for Baker Tilly; Hammes Co.; and Weas Development.

Randall Crocker, managing partner of von Briesen, said his firm received six proposals in late 2009. Crocker did not include Triple Net Properties, which owns The 411 Building, 411 E. Wisconsin Ave., as one of his firm’s six options. The von Briesen law firm has 200 employees and leases 50,000 square feet at The 411 Building.

Crocker confirmed that he was talking with Irgens and Lee about their project.

“We’ve targeted the end of the third quarter this year for making a decision,” Crocker said.

Westling and some Milwaukee officials view Westling’s site on the Milwaukee River as perhaps the most desirable in the corridor that was cleared by the demolition of the Park East freeway in 2003.

Westling has met with the prospective tenants looking at downtown Milwaukee and is confident his Park East corridor site offers the city the most catalytic advantages of all the potential sites.

“We’ll bring a project to the table that helps the city accomplish its planning goals in the Park East and along the river,” Westling said.

Westling has been working on his development for months and is in the final stages of pricing out the project that will allow him to soon present leasing proposals.

“The window of opportunity for locking in low construction and materials costs will remain open over the next 12 months; that will reduce our bottom line, making the project more attractive,” Westling said.

Michael Levine, a partner in the Next Generation Real Estate project on East Wisconsin Avenue, expects Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett’s administration to be willing to provide tax incremental financing or other financial support for the next office tower.

“It will be hard to make a new development work without city assistance because of the low lease rates downtown,” said Levine, whose site in the middle of a historic district will require city approvals to demolish buildings on Broadway and North Milwaukee Street.

Link:
http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2010/05/17/story1.html?b=1274068800%5E3348451

Why don't these six developers get together and create one 60 story mixed use (Class A / Condo's / Restaurant / Downtown movie theater) building and stop dicking around. We don't need another 20 story building. Why don't we see more mixed use buildings? How great would it be for, say an Accountant for a big bank, to live on one of the upper floors, and commute to work by taking a 5 minute elevator ride.

Now that would be an amazing commute to work. What a great selling point for a major company. Live and work in the same building. They could have a Zip Ride on the bottom floor so you can rent a car for an hour or two to get groceries.

Any idea on the height of this building?

Hopefully the city will move to get Kohl's to locate these new offices in downtown Milwaukee:


May 13, 2010
Kohl’s seeks more office space in Wisconsin (http://www.biztimes.com/daily/2010/5/13/kohls-seeks-more-office-space-in-wisconsin)
Published May 13, 2010 - BizTimes Daily


"Kohl’s Corp. has outgrown its corporate headquarters in Menomonee Falls and will need to expand with additional space in the state.
The retail company conducted its annual meeting today. Kohl’s chief executive officer Kevin Mansell said after the meeting that the company needs to expand its office space.
Kohl’s spokeswoman Petrell Ozbay said the company has no plans to move its headquarters out of Menomonee Falls. Instead, the company will pursue an unspecified amount of additional space in the state to accommodate its growth, Ozbay said.
No additional details about the company’s plans were available today."



Kohl’s seeking more space for headquarters staff (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2010/05/10/daily54.html)
The Business Journal of Milwaukee - by Rich Kirchen



Kevin Mansell says Menomonee Falls-based Kohl's Corp. is seeking more space to grow its headquarters.
View Larger
Still-growing department store chain Kohl’s Corp. has filled the capacity of its Menomonee Falls headquarters and is seeking more office space, preferably within the vicinity of the existing headquarters.

Kohl’s executives strongly prefer to maintain a headquarters in the Milwaukee area because of the existing and available work force, Kohl’s chairman and CEO Kevin Mansell said in an interview after the company’s annual shareholders meeting Thursday afternoon in downtown Milwaukee. He’s not making any threats about leaving the state but said the company will seek a dialog with state and local officials in its search.

“We love Wisconsin and the incredible work force,” he said.

Mansell said he expects his executive team to make a decision locating the additional office space by the end of 2010.

“We’re going to have to identify another space that’s geographically close to our current campus,” Mansell said.

The company’s headquarters is at N56 W17000 Ridgewood Drive. Kohl’s also has a call center in Menomonee Falls and a photography studio on Milwaukee’s far northwest side near Menomonee Falls. The company decided last fall to close its large distribution center in Menomonee Falls — its oldest warehouse — and offer the 250 employees there a chance to transfer to one of the retailer's 10 other distribution centers in its network.

Kohl’s (NYSE: KSS) has continued growing sales, adding stores — it now runs 1,067 stores in 49 states — and hiring employees for what Mansell called good-paying, professional jobs. The company has more than 3,000 employees at the headquarters and a total of about 4,000 corporate employees in the Milwaukee metro area.

The company has completed several expansions at the headquarters and cannot expand any further there, Mansell said. He did not specify the amount of space the company will need but said Kohl’s will place a premium on convenience and parking for employees. Mansell said he is reluctant to locate too far from the existing offices because employees have already chosen residences within a convenient drive of that site.

Kohl’s executives are developing a plan and projecting the company’s office space needs for the next three to five years, Mansell said.

“We are going to grow well-paying professional jobs — we want to do it right here,” Mansell said. “Having said that, we have to find some space.”

wrong.

http://subsidyscope.com/transportation/highways/funding/

Way to site a link that was already shown to not be a good example of funding in the state of wisconsin. You can go here: http://www.tdawisconsin.org/publications.iml#2 (http://www.tdawisconsin.org/publications.iml#2) to get all kinds of good info on where money is coming in from and what it is going to. What I found is that the amount of "other" revenue, i.e. non-user fees, is nearly equal to the amount that is spent from the transportation fund for things not related to highways such as mass transit, "petroleum inspects", and other non highway expenditures.

In Wisconsin, no property taxes are used for the transportation fund unless you consider money that they considered moving from the general fund to the transportation fund (which actually did not match the amount that doyle has been taking OUT).

I have a lot of friends who work for Kohls that are young, have strong skillsets, and would love to work downtown. I don't see it happening, but I know a good portion of their workforce would love it.

It is funny because while I drive to work every day and have to pay the gas tax it is never spent on any of the roads I drive on, instead most of the roads I drive on are paid for right off of my property tax bill. Over the last 2 weeks all my my gas tax has gone to roads I have not driven on, it is being diverted to pay for highways. Does that sound like a real user fee? I think that tolls are necessary as a user fee to partially pay the high cost for highways, and that local roads should receive equal benefits from the gas tax proportional to the amount of traffic they handle. It would be nice if we could get local road construction costs off of the property tax bill, and make it so that those that drive more pay more.

You want to take local roads off of the property tax rolls? Isn't the point of property taxes to pay for local services like street construction and repair?

You guys do realize that a toll would only take more money out of the economy of the state right? Unless you're proposing that they eliminate proportionally the amount of gas tax for the amount earned by the tolls. That doesn't make sense either, because proportionally more money is siphoned away from the populated areas of the state and spent on less populated areas. Do we put tolls on state highways up north or in the western part of the state?

edit* crap... I'm really sorry for letting myself get so off topic!!! I'll try again to stop that. :)

IMHO, the biggest problem with the fuel tax is that it was not originally set up as a 'percentage of the price' tax (like the sales tax) instead of as a fixed dollars per volume unit as it is now. The problem is is that it cannot stay level with inflation and as inflation keeps chugging along, it destroys its usefulness as a *fair* source of the revenue for the building and maintaining of roads. If it was set up at the beginning as a percentage tax, yes, fuel would likely be significantly more expensive than it is now, probably in the $4.50-5.50/USAgallon (about $1.20-1.50/liter) range now - but we would also not now be arguing about how to finance roadwork.

Mike

Why don't these six developers get together and create one 60 story mixed use (Class A / Condo's / Restaurant / Downtown movie theater) building and stop dicking around. We don't need another 20 story building. Why don't we see more mixed use buildings? How great would it be for, say an Accountant for a big bank, to live on one of the upper floors, and commute to work by taking a 5 minute elevator ride.

Now that would be an amazing commute to work. What a great selling point for a major company. Live and work in the same building. They could have a Zip Ride on the bottom floor so you can rent a car for an hour or two to get groceries.

Any idea on the height of this building?

You are joking right? I hope so, but I can't be sure... Milwaukee is not going to see a 60 story tower in decades IF it ever happens. We do need 20 story towers, that's exactly what Milwaukee needs. There just simply isn't the demand in the market around here, especially now, to make buildings as high or higher than the US Bank Tower realistic. The best thing for Milwaukee right now is density. Adding numerous 10-20 story towers in the next decade would be far more beneficial that one 40-60 story tower.

You are joking right? I hope so, but I can't be sure... Milwaukee is not going to see a 60 story tower in decades IF it ever happens. We do need 20 story towers, that's exactly what Milwaukee needs. There just simply isn't the demand in the market around here, especially now, to make buildings as high or higher than the US Bank Tower realistic. The best thing for Milwaukee right now is density. Adding numerous 10-20 story towers in the next decade would be far more beneficial that one 40-60 story tower.
I basically agree with you but this is a skyscraper forum and we like to dream here. Otherwise I was very disappointed with the scaled down version of the Knapp/Water street proposal. When first proposed it was 20 or 22 floors and now it's down to 10 the last I heard before that artical reported it as 15. With all the people looking for office space I think a 20 to 30 floor office project is very realistic, the people just have to get together and work together.

Otherwised yes, a 40 to 60 floor office building is not going to happen anytime soon and I actually hope it doesn't. I agree that Milwaukee's skyline and or downtown needs more density with building in the 15 to 30 floor range. So yes, if that means building 3 20 story highrises instead of one 60 story building I would definately perfer that, I think...

At the end of that long story about potential new office towers in downtown Milwaukee, I love how it seems the writer of the story had to make sure that the last two paragraphs were included in the story. Made me think that the developer (Levine) must have stressed the idea quite a bit to make sure it got in the story so that people begin to get used to the idea - so maybe the backlash will have dimished a bit by the time he actually asks for some type of financial break - and then it won't be quite as much of a surprise. Here's the end of the story:

"Michael Levine, a partner in the Next Generation Real Estate project on East Wisconsin Avenue, expects Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett’s administration to be willing to provide tax incremental financing or other financial support for the next office tower.

“It will be hard to make a new development work without city assistance because of the low lease rates downtown,” said Levine, whose site in the middle of a historic district will require city approvals to demolish buildings on Broadway and North Milwaukee Street."

I wonder if there is any chance the City would give a tax break or some type of financial incentive. It seems if the Mayor starts giving them out for one project -- there'd be no stopping everyone else that is thinking about building an office building in downtown Milwaukee from asking for the same thing. The fact that he is asking to tear down historic buildings and also asking for financial incentives just doesn't seem like a real good idea to me.

You want to take local roads off of the property tax rolls? Isn't the point of property taxes to pay for local services like street construction and repair?

You guys do realize that a toll would only take more money out of the economy of the state right? Unless you're proposing that they eliminate proportionally the amount of gas tax for the amount earned by the tolls. That doesn't make sense either, because proportionally more money is siphoned away from the populated areas of the state and spent on less populated areas. Do we put tolls on state highways up north or in the western part of the state?

edit* crap... I'm really sorry for letting myself get so off topic!!! I'll try again to stop that. :)
/*
No, what I am proposing is a reshuffling of the taxes. The gas tax gets split, and is used where it is earned. If highway driving accounts for aprox 50% of the revenue for gas tax, then highway driving gets 50% of the revenue, the rest then gets spend on local arterial roads based on current established traffic loads(not future projections), thus relieving some of the local property tax burden when arterial roads need reconstruction.

Most local streets such as the one in front of my house would still be on the property taxes since they wouldn't have traffic counts high enough to warrant any revenue from the gas tax, but the cost to the local municipalities for the larger reconstruction projects would diminish as part of the reconstruction costs would be paid for from the gas tax thus reducing the local need for additional bonding, and improving the finances for everyone.

As far as highway funding, they would still be partially paid for by the gas tax, although the current percentage of their costs paid by the gas tax would diminish, and the gap would be made up by implementing tolls. Again we would be using tolls to reduce our governments need to issue bonds for road construction, and all toll revenues would be directed towards highway funding, whether it is construction, maintenance, plowing, monitoring, or lighting. No state general funds would be spent on the highways, they would be paid fully by user fees, and they would be budgeted separately.

By using tolls we would be able to tap into a larger market of out of state residents who are already paying tolls, who driving across our state every weekend of the summer and who clog all of our north-south bound highways to help pay the costs of the highways, and we will also free up our local property tax bills partially from the cost of paying for the larger arterial reconstruction projects which most local municipalities usually bond and then pay off for years afterward from property tax revenue. I think ideally, local property taxes should be used to pay for just services, ie snowplowing, street-sweeping, police, fire, education, and parks. The local streets that see almost no traffic should be paid for by the adjacent property owners through special assessments when they need to be reconstructed, and the rest of the streets should receive some form of at least partial funding from the gas tax.
*/

Hopefully the city will move to get Kohl's to locate these new offices in downtown Milwaukee:


May 13, 2010
Kohl’s seeks more office space in Wisconsin (http://www.biztimes.com/daily/2010/5/13/kohls-seeks-more-office-space-in-wisconsin)
Published May 13, 2010 - BizTimes Daily


"Kohl’s Corp. has outgrown its corporate headquarters in Menomonee Falls and will need to expand with additional space in the state.
The retail company conducted its annual meeting today. Kohl’s chief executive officer Kevin Mansell said after the meeting that the company needs to expand its office space.
Kohl’s spokeswoman Petrell Ozbay said the company has no plans to move its headquarters out of Menomonee Falls. Instead, the company will pursue an unspecified amount of additional space in the state to accommodate its growth, Ozbay said.
No additional details about the company’s plans were available today."



Kohl’s seeking more space for headquarters staff (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2010/05/10/daily54.html)
The Business Journal of Milwaukee - by Rich Kirchen



Kevin Mansell says Menomonee Falls-based Kohl's Corp. is seeking more space to grow its headquarters.
View Larger
Still-growing department store chain Kohl’s Corp. has filled the capacity of its Menomonee Falls headquarters and is seeking more office space, preferably within the vicinity of the existing headquarters.

Kohl’s executives strongly prefer to maintain a headquarters in the Milwaukee area because of the existing and available work force, Kohl’s chairman and CEO Kevin Mansell said in an interview after the company’s annual shareholders meeting Thursday afternoon in downtown Milwaukee. He’s not making any threats about leaving the state but said the company will seek a dialog with state and local officials in its search.

“We love Wisconsin and the incredible work force,” he said.

Mansell said he expects his executive team to make a decision locating the additional office space by the end of 2010.

“We’re going to have to identify another space that’s geographically close to our current campus,” Mansell said.

The company’s headquarters is at N56 W17000 Ridgewood Drive. Kohl’s also has a call center in Menomonee Falls and a photography studio on Milwaukee’s far northwest side near Menomonee Falls. The company decided last fall to close its large distribution center in Menomonee Falls — its oldest warehouse — and offer the 250 employees there a chance to transfer to one of the retailer's 10 other distribution centers in its network.

Kohl’s (NYSE: KSS) has continued growing sales, adding stores — it now runs 1,067 stores in 49 states — and hiring employees for what Mansell called good-paying, professional jobs. The company has more than 3,000 employees at the headquarters and a total of about 4,000 corporate employees in the Milwaukee metro area.

The company has completed several expansions at the headquarters and cannot expand any further there, Mansell said. He did not specify the amount of space the company will need but said Kohl’s will place a premium on convenience and parking for employees. Mansell said he is reluctant to locate too far from the existing offices because employees have already chosen residences within a convenient drive of that site.

Kohl’s executives are developing a plan and projecting the company’s office space needs for the next three to five years, Mansell said.

“We are going to grow well-paying professional jobs — we want to do it right here,” Mansell said. “Having said that, we have to find some space.”

Yea maybe Kohl's will get in on this new tower... That could add some height. I hope they can find a few more tenants for that building so it isn't some 10 story who cares thing.

@GarfieldPark I have to think that just about any of these projects is going to look for a TIF (basically for the parking garage). That said, in my opinion there's close to zero chance the tear down project will get a TIF if they plan on demoing those buildings.

The posters saying that Milwaukee is long ways off from getting a 40-60 story tower are mostly right. I would take a miracle to get a office building that high. The matter is complicated even more because there is plenty of space downtown to build office buidings. Until Milwaukees dowtown becomes more denser, or a local bank becomes big enough that it needs its own office tower, a new Milwaukees tallest office building is a long ways off.

With that being said, one can dream. Milwaukees poximity to Chicago can only help in getting us population and job gains. I'm not saying a company is going to choose Milwaukee over Chicago, but Milwaukee can attact enough smaller companies so that the demand for new office towers would increase. One of the things that really upsets me is the lack of architectural competition going on in Milwaukee. It really is hit and mostly miss. The breakwater and the proposed residential towers that was supposed to be across the street from yankee hill are a great example of the newer bland designs that designers bring to our skyline.

That is why the Moderne is so important. Not only because park east needs it, but also because its design isnt too overly generic. It will add rather than detract to Milwaukees skyline. I know most of us on here would love to see a new Milwaukee tallest. The U.S bank building is not only bland, but it dominates our skyline and makes it look uninteresting.

All of us post here because we want Milwaukee to improve and become a recognized city. Its hard to step out of Chicagos shadow (and we probably never will) but that doesn't mean Wisconsin can't have a world class city of its own. The city need to take steps to modernize in order to attract and retain fresh talent. UWM, Marquette, Rail, The water council, and ongoing efforts to make our city more liveable and enjoyable all will play important roles in getting our city on more recognition.

Amen, jehuty.

Unfortunately, I think what Milwaukee needs more than anything to get a new office building is lower taxes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those people who constantly bitch about our taxes because they are not as terrible as people say. If I'm not mistaken, we are in the middle half of the nation, which isn't bad at all. And even if Scott Walker, or any republican eliminated taxes altogether, I still wouldn't vote for him or her.

But we need to be better than average to attract a significant number of jobs, especially when we compete with Chicago. We have a beautiful lakefront, but so does Chicago. Our climates are pretty much the same. We don't have as much traffic as Chicago, but they have the golden mile and more vibrant downtown. If we could combine our already lower cost of living with significantly lower taxes, people could look at our two cities and say, in different ways, "Yeah, Chicago might be a little cooler, but it just doesn't make sense financially not to pick to Milwaukee"

While taxes are necessary to fund things that make quality of life better, money talks. Even more than usual because we are coming off a recession where businesses are looking to cut costs and not lay any more people off. If done right, lower taxes can even increase revenue after a few years because as more businesses and people move here, you draw from a larger pool.

I hate to use Texas as an example, and by no means propose modeling ourselves after them, but they do have one thing we should be jealous of... consistently adding high paying jobs. They also have some of the lowest taxes in the nation, which definitely plays a role in their job creation. Recently Austin Texas built a 55-story condo building. Austin? I've never been there, and I'm sure it's a great city. But, besides from a better business climate, what can it have that Milwaukee doesn't? And I know for a fact it doesn't have a lakefront like ours or anything even close.

Rant over

^^ I'd say Milwaukee is competing against a whole lot of other cities much more than it is competing against Chicago. Chicago wins out for companies looking for the global access and international prestige that comes with operating out of one of the world's major business centers -- and for that it has no other real peers in the Midwest. Businesses looking for cost savings through lower rent, lower employee salaries and other lower business costs will look at cities like Milwaukee over Chicago. Of course in that type of competition, Milwaukee is then competing against Memphis, Indianapolis, Columbus, Peoria, St. Louis, etc. It sounded like you were trying to say that businesses in Chicago looking to save on costs would choose Milwaukee because it has lower costs and is similar with its lakefront. Mayvbe I'm wrong -- but I really don't think that the lakefront thing ranks real high on the check list of corporate CEO's looking to move to a more cost effective city. Maybe if its a lake dependent business - that might be a possibility, but are there really many of those around?

As for Austin / Milwaukee comparison --- I've visited both recently and Austin seems quite different in many ways from Milwaukee. Sure there are some similarities too, I guess--- but really, not so much. I could go into some of the details -- but it might work best to just do some digging around on Wikipedia or googling articles on Life in Austin to get a better idea of what Austin is like (to be concise -- very fun, cool and outdoorsy, imo). I think one of the biggest differences is perception -- and a lot of that image relates to something that can't be changed. Austin is thought of as a warm climate city with a huge liberal-minded, young college population. Unfortunately - Milwaukee is thought of as a cold weather climate city - and that makes a big impression in a lot of people's minds (not in a good way). I think it is truly amazing that Minneapolis - St. Paul does as well as it does with its climate, as it is doing pretty decent in terms of population and job growth.

Milwaukee is working on making the shift from its heavy manufacturing / industrial employment to newer industries and the change hasn't happened enough yet to allow there to be enough new jobs to attract a lot of people to move there. The Austin MSA grew by 36% between 2000 and 2009 while Milwaukee's MSA grew by about 4% in that same time frame. Austin wasn't a big city historically with a lot of industry -- so it didn't have to go through the "shift" that Milwaukee is trying to do. Its growth really started to take off when it started using a lot of its educational assets to jump right into some of the new technology industries and by attracting people with its fun and "weird" lifestyle. It hasn't really looked back, growing from a region of around 850,000 back in 1990 to a region that will hit 2,000,000 very soon - probably around 2014 or 2015. Its a cool place --- and its downtown skyline is suddenly becoming really cool too now, as you mentioned.

Milwaukee is working on making the shift from its heavy manufacturing / industrial employment to newer industries and the change hasn't happened enough yet to allow there to be enough new jobs to attract a lot of people to move there.

That was true in the 80's, but by the 90's Milwaukee had transitioned into a diversified economy. You can find more information on it here. (http://www.choosemilwaukee.com/economy.aspx) Service industries (especially financial) make up more of the local economy now, by a 4:1 ratio. Those service industries are represented in the 8 fortune 500 companies located in Milwaukee (more than most states have, including Indiana and Arizona to name a few).

Manufacturing has transitioned in recent decades as well. A local business leader recently described the environment of manufacturing in Milwaukee as 'survival of the fittest'. Explaining that the companies that are still here from the 80's are now extremely specialized, technologically driven, and globally connected.

The perception many people have about Milwaukee is one of the major reason why this city can't attract jobs, and new talent. We know all too well about the brain drain that happens every year in may. College graduates leave in droves because they feel like Milwaukee is going nowhere. I have plenty of friends who tell me every day how they can't wait to leave this city for places like Miami or Chicago.

People that visit here call this city lame. That is what i'm trying to get at. Its a commonly associated term with Milwaukee. That Milwaukee is just not exciting and is lame. This city lacks a certain type of electricity (a heartbeat if you will), this makes people have negative impressions of it. Think about it; Milwaukee is a diverse city that is not united in any way. The city gets pummeled by its western and northern suburbs. For a city its size, Milwaukee hardly exudes power.

Its a problem and I believe that a younger mayor would probably aim to change Milwaukees image, but just look at how many people are against the streetcars and you have an idea what the city will be up against. Its like the old people don't want to progress into the future. They yell that they want jobs but their only solution is to cut taxes. Lowering taxes alone is not gonna help Milwaukee compete with other cities. Milwaukee needs to modernize and show people that it actually can be enjoyable to live here. A dead and boring downtown does not relay a good message.

Just think about any movie that mentions a Milwaukee, more likely than not Milwaukee is heavily bagged on.

I know there are many like me that live in the city who have made plans to move elsewhere if the city doesn't improve soon. I just can't help it, places like Chicago offer so much more and has much more progressive minds. I and many others really can't stand how slow and simple minded Milwaukee is. Its a shame really, because this city has so much potential.

Bye bye.

Eastsider: I don't disagree with your response to my comments as you wrote above. I agree that Milwaukee is definitely changing --- and has a lot of great Fortune 500 companies but, what I wrote isn't false. I said it hasn't changed enough to make a difference in attracting new jobs and enough people to take the new jobs. If the changes in employment and industry had made enough of a difference --- there would be a higher rate of population growth and new job growth -- like what is happening in Austin. Milwaukee is a great city -- but it just has some very complex issues to deal with - like many older, denser, aging Midwest - Northeastern cities.

Eastsider: I clicked on the link in your post and found all kinds of interesting information about the Milwaukee region. Good, helpful information -- but it did leave me questioning the researchers. There were two places where the statistics included populations for the various regions. In one of the lists (performing arts groups per 100,000 people) the Milwaukee region was listed as having 2,003,218 people. In the other list that included regional population (Fortune 500 Headquarters per 100,000 people) the Milwaukee region was listed as having 2,014,032 people. I wonder why the inconsistency. Also -- the population numbers don't seem to be consistent with US Census Bureau statistics. For example, the Indianapolis region is larger than the Milwaukee region, whether you are looking at Metropolitan Statistical Areas or Consolidated Statistical Areas. The Milwaukee region is listed in your statistics both times as having over 2,000,000 people -- while Indianapolis in those same statistics is listed at about 1,715,000 one time and about 1,692,000 the next time. In the 2009 US Census Estimates, the Milwaukee MSA is listed at 1,559,667 and the Indianapolis MSA is listed at 1,743,658. Indianapolis' CSA is a little above 2 million. Basically -- I'm just saying that the editors of that report need to use some consistency. If they are going to expand the boundaries of the Milwaukee region and say it has over 2,000,000 people --- they should expand the boundaries of the other regions as well to be consistent. Otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges.

Eastsider: I don't disagree with your response to my comments as you wrote above. I agree that Milwaukee is definitely changing --- and has a lot of great Fortune 500 companies but, what I wrote isn't false. I said it hasn't changed enough to make a difference in attracting new jobs and enough people to take the new jobs. If the changes in employment and industry had made enough of a difference --- there would be a higher rate of population growth and new job growth -- like what is happening in Austin. Milwaukee is a great city -- but it just has some very complex issues to deal with - like many older, denser, aging Midwest - Northeastern cities.

You said Milwaukee had problems with employment and population growth because it hadn't changed (diversified) its economy enough, that is wrong. I'm not trying to win a discussion, that's just the reality of the current business climate. I totally agree that Milwaukee, like many cities in the region, needs to aggressively market itself better to retain and attract talent and new jobs.

Last decade was a growth period for both factors in Milwaukee. Small growth, but still in the black. It's odd comparing it to a city like Austin. Austin's the capital of the largest state in the lower 48, home to a large research university, has a huge geographic footprint (larger than L.A.), hot temps, and located in a border state of Mexico. With those kinds of assets, Milwaukee will probably never be able to compete economically with it.

But I think the largest take-away from comparing the two would be the influence of government jobs (which are the largest employers in Austin), specifically the influence of a really strong Research University. Closer to Milwaukee you can see an example of the economic benefits of both in Madison. That's why the creation of UWM's research park is going to have such a strong effect in job creation, especially in the spin off of tech companies, intellectual property, and small businesses. The other growth factor Milwaukee is banking on is the Water Industry, which is just starting to percolate. The UN's recent designation for Milwaukee as a Global Compact City (the second in the US, San Fran being the first for technology in climate change) as a Water Technology Hub helps, and promotes the city internationally in a globally competitive industry.

Milwaukee continues to build and transition its new economy, which every major city has to in today's global environment. The benefits aren't going to be seen overnight, like changes past in the economy, but the building blocks are there.

The perception many people have about Milwaukee is one of the major reason why this city can't attract jobs, and new talent. We know all too well about the brain drain that happens every year in may. College graduates leave in droves because they feel like Milwaukee is going nowhere. I have plenty of friends who tell me every day how they can't wait to leave this city for places like Miami or Chicago.

People that visit here call this city lame. That is what i'm trying to get at. Its a commonly associated term with Milwaukee. That Milwaukee is just not exciting and is lame. This city lacks a certain type of electricity (a heartbeat if you will), this makes people have negative impressions of it. Think about it; Milwaukee is a diverse city that is not united in any way. The city gets pummeled by its western and northern suburbs. For a city its size, Milwaukee hardly exudes power.

Its a problem and I believe that a younger mayor would probably aim to change Milwaukees image, but just look at how many people are against the streetcars and you have an idea what the city will be up against. Its like the old people don't want to progress into the future. They yell that they want jobs but their only solution is to cut taxes. Lowering taxes alone is not gonna help Milwaukee compete with other cities. Milwaukee needs to modernize and show people that it actually can be enjoyable to live here. A dead and boring downtown does not relay a good message.

Just think about any movie that mentions a Milwaukee, more likely than not Milwaukee is heavily bagged on.

I know there are many like me that live in the city who have made plans to move elsewhere if the city doesn't improve soon. I just can't help it, places like Chicago offer so much more and has much more progressive minds. I and many others really can't stand how slow and simple minded Milwaukee is. Its a shame really, because this city has so much potential.

I'm surprised by the experiences you have with friends and vistors to Milwaukee. I've almost exclusively had quite the opposite situations... I rarely have friends that are desperate to leave the city. Sure, some do leave for various reasons but none that have left were desperate to leave, it was usually for a job and whatnot.

On the other hand, people that I know that have visited absolutely LOVE the city. Almost to a person, (and because of my former line of work I know many) they were usually both surprised and excited by all the vibrancy our city has, the cleanliness of the streets, and all the fun attractions we have to offer.

Now, we definately have a bad image in pop culture, but when people get to come and experience our city first hand it usually goes over very well.

Qwerty44 kind of brings up a main reason for growth in some areas... Texas is just plain more friendly to business and encourages it's growth. Quite frankly, they are succeeding! Even if it costs us in the short term, if we can encourage the growth of businesses in Milwaukee we will reap the benefits of business growth (jobs, income taxes, additional property taxes, sales taxes, etc) like they are. It can be done and ultimately lead to the 50-60 story buildings we covet that Texas is currently getting.

Eastsider: I clicked on the link in your post and found all kinds of interesting information about the Milwaukee region. Good, helpful information -- but it did leave me questioning the researchers. There were two places where the statistics included populations for the various regions. In one of the lists (performing arts groups per 100,000 people) the Milwaukee region was listed as having 2,003,218 people. In the other list that included regional population (Fortune 500 Headquarters per 100,000 people) the Milwaukee region was listed as having 2,014,032 people. I wonder why the inconsistency. Also -- the population numbers don't seem to be consistent with US Census Bureau statistics. For example, the Indianapolis region is larger than the Milwaukee region, whether you are looking at Metropolitan Statistical Areas or Consolidated Statistical Areas. The Milwaukee region is listed in your statistics both times as having over 2,000,000 people -- while Indianapolis in those same statistics is listed at about 1,715,000 one time and about 1,692,000 the next time. In the 2009 US Census Estimates, the Milwaukee MSA is listed at 1,559,667 and the Indianapolis MSA is listed at 1,743,658. Indianapolis' CSA is a little above 2 million. Basically -- I'm just saying that the editors of that report need to use some consistency. If they are going to expand the boundaries of the Milwaukee region and say it has over 2,000,000 people --- they should expand the boundaries of the other regions as well to be consistent. Otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges.

The organization that promotes that website is the Milwaukee 7, a coalition of 7 counties around Milwaukee that promote and recruit businesses. The stats you're referring to reflect the figures of those 7 counties, also known as the Greater Milwaukee Area (2,014,032 as of 2008).

That's very misleading to compare the Greater Milwaukee Area to other metro figures, I totally agree. But understandable I guess considering their goals as a promotional organization, and the use of that website as a marketing tool. The information on Milwaukee is still correct though. The fortune 500 information I got is from this (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2007/states/WI.html) source (CNN).

You know, it doesn't really matter: I've been to indianapolis and even if they claim to have more people, it feels much smaller there than in milwaukee. I say let the 2million stand.

You know, it doesn't really matter: I've been to indianapolis and even if they claim to have more people, it feels much smaller there than in milwaukee. I say let the 2million stand.
BIG difference here - the vast majority of the Indianapolis metro area is INSIDE OF THE CITY LIMITS of Indianapolis, while the vast majority of the Milwaukee metro area is OUTSIDE OF THE CITY LIMITS of Milwaukee. It really makes a *HUGE* difference in every aspect of life in and public perception of the respective cities.

'Milwaukee' would be a vastly different place today if the entire metro area was governed by one municipal-level government.

Mike

jehuty, your outlook is far more pessimistic than realistic IMO. I agree that the average opinion of Milwaukee is slightly negative, but once people actually explore our city their outlook generally improves. In my own experience, a woman visiting from Germany was worried that Milwaukee would be "a small fishing village on a lake" and later described it as "fantastic". And as I was driving down North Ave around 2 am a few weeks ago, a woman from Spain I was with was "surprised at how awake (I'm assuming she meant vibrant) it is here" when she saw all the people walking around. And driving just last night (this morning) I saw very large, young crowd at The Rave letting out from Basshunter, who made only 5 stops in the US (including Austin) and Steve Aoki, arguably one of the top club DJ's in the world. If your, or visitor's, experience with nightlife and vibrancy has been "lame", it definitely is not because vibrancy doesn't exist.

Overall I think the future for Milwaukee is bright. We have great things to offer, we just need to give the vast majority of people/businesses who otherwise wouldn't know about these things incentives to look at Milwaukee for themselves. Like lower taxes, rail, etc. If we can't, we will continue to see slow growth with mid range buildings popping up, probably not much more.

I agree with your point East-sider - that it is strange to compare Austin to Milwaukee. That's why I wrote my long thread -- I thought it was a pretty crazy thought as well. I wrote it in response to Qwerty44 who said he (she?) couldn't understand why Austin was getting these new tall buildings and Milwaukee wasn't. I tried to explain some differences - similar to what you pointed out. I was aware of the points you made about things Milwaukee is doing to create new jobs -- the Water Technology and you also mentioned tech spin-offs from UWM. (although I wasn't sure if by UWM you meant UW Madison or UW Milwaukee). Hopefully, either way, those spin-offs will start turning into more jobs and more growth in Milwaukee.

You said that Milwaukee has changed (diversified) its economic employment base. Of course it has - all cities have changed their job base over the past twenty-five years to a certain extent -- but do you really think it has changed enough? That was my point. I said it hadn't changed ENOUGH. You apparently think it has - since you keep rebutting my point. My point is that, if it had changed enough it would probably be growing more successfully and wouldn't be in the bottom ranks of the nation's largest metro areas (with over 1 million people) in terms of percentage population increase. Among those cities, Milwaukee only led Detroit, Buffalo, New Orleans, Cleveland, Rochester, Pittsburgh and Providence in percentage increase in population between 2000and 2009.

If you want to say Milwaukee has been successful in changing its economy - because it is ahead of those cities --- well go for it. If Milwaukee wants to really start improving however -- it needs to compare itself to the regions that are doing well - (or at least better than it) if it wants to claim that it is making successful changes with its economy. That's my point. Until Milwaukee at least starts catching up with other regions that are having at least moderate growth like Cincinnati, Memphis and Louisville (each between 7 and 9 percent population growth since 2000) I don't see how it can say that it has successfully changed its economy - and is creating enough good jobs to attract more people to move there. Sure its doing better than Detroit and Cleveland --- but then what city isn't?

mgk920: "BIG difference here - the vast majority of the Indianapolis metro area is INSIDE OF THE CITY LIMITS of Indianapolis, while the vast majority of the Milwaukee metro area is OUTSIDE OF THE CITY LIMITS of Milwaukee. It really makes a *HUGE* difference in every aspect of life in and public perception of the respective cities.

'Milwaukee' would be a vastly different place today if the entire metro area was governed by one municipal-level government."


To mgk920: You don't really have your facts right about Indianapolis and its metropolitan area. The city limits of Indianapolis are almost as large as the County that it is in. The city contains approximately 790,000 people -- while Marion County has about 870,000 people. There are four cities that are within Marion County that are not part of Indianapolis. There are another approximately 900,000 people who live within the Indianapolis metropolitan area but outside of Marion County. So -- Indianapolis residents make up about 790,000 out of 1,770,000 people living in the eight county Metro area -- or somewhere around 45%. I do not consider that a vast majority of the population of the region.

The City of Milwaukee has what -- about 600,000 people? and the Milwaukee metro area has about 1,570,000? It seems like a fairly similar proportion between core city and overall metro area. Milwaukee is definitely denser -- which is probably why MilwaukeeMax thinks it seems larger. I'm sure the Indy metro covers a much larger area than Milwaukee's metro -- so the population for Milwaukee is squeezed together a little closer. Indy expands in all directions -- while Milwaukee is stopped on the East by the Lake -- but I'm sure you all already knew that. (and also -- The city of Indianapolis doesn't control the government of the entire Metropolitan area. You didn't specifically say that -- but you kind of insinuated it by saying that Milwaukee would be doing so much better if it was in control of its entire Metro area -- as if that was something that Indy had done. Not true.)

To MilwaukeeMax -- Indy is growing much faster than Milwaukee -- so even if you think it currently seems smaller than Milwaukee -- you probably will need to update your thoughts on that topic soon. Milwaukee metro is growing by about 65,000 - 70,000 people per decade. Metro Indy is growing at about 240,000 per decade. Every decade we pull another 170,000 people further ahead. Indy maybe used to look smaller - but I doubt that will be the situation for long. All of those people have got to live somewhere - and they're not all moving out to the suburban ring.

You are joking right? I hope so, but I can't be sure... Milwaukee is not going to see a 60 story tower in decades IF it ever happens. We do need 20 story towers, that's exactly what Milwaukee needs. There just simply isn't the demand in the market around here, especially now, to make buildings as high or higher than the US Bank Tower realistic. The best thing for Milwaukee right now is density. Adding numerous 10-20 story towers in the next decade would be far more beneficial that one 40-60 story tower.

Settle down... Like other posters have said this is a Skyscrapper forum where we dream. I'm expressing my general displeasure with Milwaukee and the lack of any new proposals that crack any significant heights.

I just think we already have too many drab, uninspiring 10 to 20 story towers. Just look at Park L.... Too bad they couldn't have taken one of the towers and even reduced it by 10 floors then combined both of them. I would rather have one 30 story tower, than two 20 story towers. Just because they can build 5 20 story towers doesn’t mean they should. I think part of the reason Milwaukee will never get a decent tower is because downtown is saturated with tons of 10 to 20 story towers. If we would more selectively build, I think we could sneak a 30 or 40 story tower in downtown. Heck, maybe even, quiet please, a 60 story tower…. Gassp Give me a Lake Pointe… Come on!!!!

Dream dream dream........
pepper:

jehuty, your outlook is far more pessimistic than realistic IMO. I agree that the average opinion of Milwaukee is slightly negative, but once people actually explore our city their outlook generally improves. In my own experience, a woman visiting from Germany was worried that Milwaukee would be "a small fishing village on a lake" and later described it as "fantastic". And as I was driving down North Ave around 2 am a few weeks ago, a woman from Spain I was with was "surprised at how awake (I'm assuming she meant vibrant) it is here" when she saw all the people walking around. And driving just last night (this morning) I saw very large, young crowd at The Rave letting out from Basshunter, who made only 5 stops in the US (including Austin) and Steve Aoki, arguably one of the top club DJ's in the world. If your, or visitor's, experience with nightlife and vibrancy has been "lame", it definitely is not because vibrancy doesn't exist.

Overall I think the future for Milwaukee is bright. We have great things to offer, we just need to give the vast majority of people/businesses who otherwise wouldn't know about these things incentives to look at Milwaukee for themselves. Like lower taxes, rail, etc. If we can't, we will continue to see slow growth with mid range buildings popping up, probably not much more.

I also agree with you. Back in college, I had an internship at JCI downtown and worked with a foreign exchange student from Poland and he was really surprised by how big Milwaukee was; much bigger than most of the cities in Poland and other countries around Europe. At least big as in how it felt, not in population. His biggest thing was, no one from around the world, let alone people from different regions of the US even know where Milwaukee is. I always say it's near Chicago and people say, "like what a suburb?" I think that's Milwaukee's biggest obstacle. It needs to be nationally and internationally known for something.

In the short term, I agree with several other posters that we need a more friendly business climate. I’m currently working for a small start up and we are already talking about leaving the state because of how unfriendly every level of government is to business. They treat companies as some bottomless gold pot to dip into too whenever they need to pad the teacher unions pension fund. That needs to change before anything else.

Settle down... Like other posters have said this is a Skyscrapper forum where we dream. I'm expressing my general displeasure with Milwaukee and the lack of any new proposals that crack any significant heights.

I just think we already have too many drab, uninspiring 10 to 20 story towers. Just look at Park L.... Too bad they couldn't have taken one of the towers and even reduced it by 10 floors then combined both of them. I would rather have one 30 story tower, than two 20 story towers. Just because they can build 5 20 story towers doesn’t mean they should. I think part of the reason Milwaukee will never get a decent tower is because downtown is saturated with tons of 10 to 20 story towers. If we would more selectively build, I think we could sneak a 30 or 40 story tower in downtown. Heck, maybe even, quiet please, a 60 story tower…. Gassp Give me a Lake Pointe… Come on!!!!

Dream dream dream........
pepper:


Park Lafayette is 2 twenty story buildings because the Nimby's and market pressures made it that way. The original proposal, Lafayette Place, was for a single much taller building.

http://www.emporis.com/img/6/2002/06/152931.jpg

I think a big part of Milwaukee's future success with attracting new business and gaining notoriety is with the water industry. We've got to realize what a huge opporunity we have here. UWM and the UW Board really needs to get their s**t together and finalize the plans for the School of Freshwater Sciences. That's going to be a catalyst. I hope the plans for the Reed Street Yards comes to fruition as well.

I am so much more happy with Park Lafayette than any of the previous proposals. Those towers are sexy and I've heard a couple of complements on them (especially from people who come to MKE via boat.)

one thing's for sure: i'd rather be in Milwaukee than Indianapolis any day. I'm sorry but Indianapolis is a savagely boring place and it's not even near anything of interest.
Sure, for Milwaukeeans it's annoying being "in the shadow of Chicago" sometimes, but it is also a mixed blessing-- We live in a region with over 10 million people. We have a gorgeous coastline along an inland sea. We're part of one of the most populous regions in the nation with Fortune 500 companies galore.

Indianapolis, on the other hand, is a landlocked flatlander town whose only assets are a greasy old racetrack and a football team that has a horseshoe as its symbol.

To each his own. Enjoy!

The posters saying that Milwaukee is long ways off from getting a 40-60 story tower are mostly right. I would take a miracle to get a office building that high. The matter is complicated even more because there is plenty of space downtown to build office buidings. Until Milwaukees dowtown becomes more denser, or a local bank becomes big enough that it needs its own office tower, a new Milwaukees tallest office building is a long ways off.

With that being said, one can dream. Milwaukees poximity to Chicago can only help in getting us population and job gains. I'm not saying a company is going to choose Milwaukee over Chicago, but Milwaukee can attact enough smaller companies so that the demand for new office towers would increase. One of the things that really upsets me is the lack of architectural competition going on in Milwaukee. It really is hit and mostly miss. The breakwater and the proposed residential towers that was supposed to be across the street from yankee hill are a great example of the newer bland designs that designers bring to our skyline.

That is why the Moderne is so important. Not only because park east needs it, but also because its design isnt too overly generic. It will add rather than detract to Milwaukees skyline. I know most of us on here would love to see a new Milwaukee tallest. The U.S bank building is not only bland, but it dominates our skyline and makes it look uninteresting.

All of us post here because we want Milwaukee to improve and become a recognized city. Its hard to step out of Chicagos shadow (and we probably never will) but that doesn't mean Wisconsin can't have a world class city of its own. The city need to take steps to modernize in order to attract and retain fresh talent. UWM, Marquette, Rail, The water council, and ongoing efforts to make our city more liveable and enjoyable all will play important roles in getting our city on more recognition.

the Breakwater is growing on me. There is something impressive about how it looks going south on Farwell or from the lakefront. Not an architectural masterpiece by any means, but it doesn't really bother me that much. It's nice filler with it's size and location.

I don't think the U.S. Bank Tower is that bad either. The problem with that building is the stupid sign on the top of it and how much it dominates the skyline---at least from the lakefront. It's actually a pretty decent looking building, considering that it's a box. Hopefully something comes around that passes it in height, but I am happy with more 20 story towers further adding density.

I'm surprised by the experiences you have with friends and vistors to Milwaukee. I've almost exclusively had quite the opposite situations... I rarely have friends that are desperate to leave the city. Sure, some do leave for various reasons but none that have left were desperate to leave, it was usually for a job and whatnot.

On the other hand, people that I know that have visited absolutely LOVE the city. Almost to a person, (and because of my former line of work I know many) they were usually both surprised and excited by all the vibrancy our city has, the cleanliness of the streets, and all the fun attractions we have to offer.

Now, we definately have a bad image in pop culture, but when people get to come and experience our city first hand it usually goes over very well.

agreed. Most people have a negative image coming in, but people are pleasantly suprised when they visit here. Especially during the summer months. I have never really heard of anybody who says it sucks here. The only people who seem to do that are people who live here and are always going on about how the grass is greener in other places (taxes and climate).

one thing's for sure: i'd rather be in Milwaukee than Indianapolis any day. I'm sorry but Indianapolis is a savagely boring place and it's not even near anything of interest.
Sure, for Milwaukeeans it's annoying being "in the shadow of Chicago" sometimes, but it is also a mixed blessing-- We live in a region with over 10 million people. We have a gorgeous coastline along an inland sea. We're part of one of the most populous regions in the nation with Fortune 500 companies galore.

Indianapolis, on the other hand, is a landlocked flatlander town whose only assets are a greasy old racetrack and a football team that has a horseshoe as its symbol.

There is never any guessing where you stand on something! lol

For what it's worth, Indy is a nice city too and has a lot going for it. But just... apparently not anything you're into. :)

Basshunter, who made only 5 stops in the US (including Austin) and Steve Aoki, arguably one of the top club DJ's in the world.

Sorry to randomly interject but that is VERY questionable. Basshunter and Steve Aoki are garbage. They're only popular to kids who don't really listen to electronic music (a cheesy, commercial crowd) and in smaller markets like Milwaukee who don't have quality clubs and bring in REAL good DJs. (see Spybar in Chicago, for example)

Sorry, as a DJ I can't stand seeing such trash peddled as actual, quality, club music. :lol:


The City of Milwaukee has what -- about 600,000 people? and the Milwaukee metro area has about 1,570,000?

Not to nitpick, but where do you get the 1.57mil from? Emporis, for example, has Milwaukee metro at 1.76, which is about where I thought we was. Also, on a semi-related note, I've seen three different populations posted on Milwaukee city signs. I've seen the old ~570,000 or whatever it was, a couple that have the 604k census estimate, and yesterday, driving westbound on capitol, crossing from Shorewood into Milwaukee, the sign was posted at like 636,000. What's with the lack of cohesion in population figures for something as simple as population signs.

Efforts to get new retail in downtown Milwaukee:

http://www.jsonline.com/business/94003169.html

@D-Res Do Paul Van Dyk, Tiesto, and Paul Oakenfold count as world class djs, as I've seen them all here in Milwaukee. I'd agree the club scene isn't as good as it has been, and certainly Chicago has bigger/better clubs, but as of late there are a few places playing good stuff again.

PS I know we are way off topic here folks.

@D-Res Do Paul Van Dyk, Tiesto, and Paul Oakenfold count as world class djs, as I've seen them all here in Milwaukee. I'd agree the club scene isn't as good as it has been, and certainly Chicago has bigger/better clubs, but as of late there are a few places playing good stuff again.

PS I know we are way off topic here folks.

Aye, they all had their heyday, and as is such, they all came here long after it. :dj:

Milwaukee just has a different scene than I'm into. It was all Drum n' Bass around here until Dubstep became big. If you like more chill techno/tech-house, you have to travel 90 min south. Although I'll agree, I've seen a few good names come through lately, and a couple production companies/promoters are making things happen for the small, niche market that exists for 'four on the floor.'

D-res: "Not to nitpick, but where do you get the 1.57mil from? Emporis, for example, has Milwaukee metro at 1.76, which is about where I thought we was. Also, on a semi-related note, I've seen three different populations posted on Milwaukee city signs. I've seen the old ~570,000 or whatever it was, a couple that have the 604k census estimate, and yesterday, driving westbound on capitol, crossing from Shorewood into Milwaukee, the sign was posted at like 636,000. What's with the lack of cohesion in population figures for something as simple as population signs."

I got the number from the US Census Bureau's 2009 population estimates. Actually, the number I put down is about 10,000 more than the number that is listed. The number listed for the Milwaukee - Waukesha - West Allis Metropolitan Statistical Area is 1,559,667. Here is a link to the site that lists the hpopulation estimates for all of the US Metro areas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

D-res: "Not to nitpick, but where do you get the 1.57mil from? Emporis, for example, has Milwaukee metro at 1.76, which is about where I thought we was. Also, on a semi-related note, I've seen three different populations posted on Milwaukee city signs. I've seen the old ~570,000 or whatever it was, a couple that have the 604k census estimate, and yesterday, driving westbound on capitol, crossing from Shorewood into Milwaukee, the sign was posted at like 636,000. What's with the lack of cohesion in population figures for something as simple as population signs."

I got the number from the US Census Bureau's 2009 population estimates. Actually, the number I put down is about 10,000 more than the number that is listed. The number listed for the Milwaukee - Waukesha - West Allis Metropolitan Statistical Area is 1,559,667. Here is a link to the site that lists the hpopulation estimates for all of the US Metro areas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

OK, looks like some of you are using CSA, some are using MSA, and others just the metro area. Everybody wins! :)

the Breakwater is growing on me. There is something impressive about how it looks going south on Farwell or from the lakefront. Not an architectural masterpiece by any means, but it doesn't really bother me that much. It's nice filler with it's size and location.

I don't think the U.S. Bank Tower is that bad either. The problem with that building is the stupid sign on the top of it and how much it dominates the skyline---at least from the lakefront. It's actually a pretty decent looking building, considering that it's a box. Hopefully something comes around that passes it in height, but I am happy with more 20 story towers further adding density.

Hey, at least it's great marketing for US Bank... I can't think of too many other companies that so powerfully dominate the visual of a city like the US Bank building does in Milwaukee... Sears Tower in Chicago.... Chrysler building in NY.... Not too many others..

And in most of the other cities you have other building's to draw the eye. In Milwaukee you're slapped right in the face with US Bank no matter what direction you’re looking from.

Efforts to get new retail in downtown Milwaukee:

http://www.jsonline.com/business/94003169.html

I don't get, a half-mile away Third Ward has specialty retailers with their only locations in the state (like Anthropologie, Design Within Reach...), and high-end boutiques (one of them, Lorena Sarbu's, only other location is in Beverly Hills). On top of that, on the even closer downtown side of Water St, a hand-full of high end boutiques just opened up right next to each other.

Yet the city is creating incentives to lure retail to Wisconsin Ave. They need to stop pushing that area as a commercial corridor, and become laser focused on developing the retail at Park East IMO. Create incentives for office space, hotels, and residential on Wisconsin Ave and watch the retail follow it.

The city has this weird relationship with Grand Ave, and the area surrounding it. Like a parent and their 30 year old son that lives at home. They just keep giving it money and incentives hoping something will happen but never does. Let the NY investors that run the property handle it and walk away.

If Barrett become Governor I'm starting a facebook campaign for Bob Greenstreet as Mayor. Who's in?

rant over.

D-res: "Not to nitpick, but where do you get the 1.57mil from? Emporis, for example, has Milwaukee metro at 1.76, which is about where I thought we was. Also, on a semi-related note, I've seen three different populations posted on Milwaukee city signs. I've seen the old ~570,000 or whatever it was, a couple that have the 604k census estimate, and yesterday, driving westbound on capitol, crossing from Shorewood into Milwaukee, the sign was posted at like 636,000. What's with the lack of cohesion in population figures for something as simple as population signs."
That 636,000 sign is just a really old sign that the city has never taken down and was the 1980 census count. The 570,000 was a 2004 or 05 estimate. Why so many different signs, maybe perhaps the city just doesn't care that much to change all the signs?


I got the number from the US Census Bureau's 2009 population estimates. Actually, the number I put down is about 10,000 more than the number that is listed. The number listed for the Milwaukee - Waukesha - West Allis Metropolitan Statistical Area is 1,559,667. Here is a link to the site that lists the hpopulation estimates for all of the US Metro areas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_AreasThe 1,559,667 is just the MSA, the CSA is 1,760,000 with the only difference being that Racine county is included.

Park Lafayette is 2 twenty story buildings because the Nimby's and market pressures made it that way. The original proposal, Lafayette Place, was for a single much taller building.

http://www.emporis.com/img/6/2002/06/152931.jpg
And that's not even the first rendering. The first rendering had a tall spire on top of the building.

http://www.biztimes.com/realestateweekly/2010/5/19/#irgens-probable-office-building-developer-for-godfrey-kahn

If Milwaukee law firm Godfey & Kahn S.C. moves its corporate headquarters to a new office building in downtown Milwaukee, that building will probably be developed by Wauwatosa-based Irgens Developer Partners LLC, according to several Milwaukee commercial real estate sources.
“We have been working with Godfrey & Kahn for some time to identify a new location for them,” said Irgens executive vice president Jackie Walsh.
Godfrey & Kahn is one of several Milwaukee law firms that has provided legal services for Irgens, Walsh said.
“We’re still waiting to see if a project comes together,” said Godfrey & Kahn managing partner Rick Bliss. “We have a very high regard for Irgens and that organization. They are just a very high-quality organization. If Irgens can put a building together we would be very attracted to that. We haven’t nailed anything down with anybody yet. We’re still waiting for something to come together.”
Godfrey & Kahn’s headquarters is currently located in the M&I Bank corporate headquarters building at 780 N. Water St. in downtown Milwaukee. The firm is out of room to expand there and has indicated for years that it will eventually need to move out of the building. The firm needs about 90,000 square feet of space.
Irgens had been planning to build an office building that would be anchored by Godfrey & Kahn next to the Milwaukee Athletic Club at 758 N. Broadway in downtown Milwaukee. However, that project has been put on hold and Irgens is looking for alternative sites, Walsh said.
Several commercial real estate brokers say the project at the Milwaukee Athletic Club site is “dead.” The property adjacent to the Milwaukee Athletic Club is a complicated site with a parking lot, parking structure and a fire station.
“In looking at the Milwaukee Athletic Club project, it’s not a simple deal,” Walsh said.
Irgens is considering several options for a downtown office building project, Walsh said. The company could identify another site to build an office building, or Irgens may partner with another developer for a project, she said. Several other developers have proposed office buildings in downtown Milwaukee.
One possibility is that Irgens will partner with developer Joel Lee, president of Van Buren Management Inc., on the Washington Square development southeast of Mason Street and Jefferson Street, which Lee has been working on for several years. However, contrary to a published report last week, Lee and Irgens have not formed a partnership to work on the project, Lee and Walsh told BizTimes Milwaukee.
If he builds Washington Square, Lee said he would add a partner for the project. He said there are three Milwaukee area developers that he would consider partnering with, and one of them is Irgens. He declined to name the other two.
The building would be 20 to 30 stories tall, but otherwise Lee said he has no specific plans and that he has no tenants committed to the project.
Lee said he has made numerous presentations about the project for years to potential tenants, including Von Briesen & Roper S.C., which is currently located at 411 E. Wisconsin Ave. and is considering several options to re-locate its headquarters.
“I thought we were very close two years ago with Associated Bank and it didn’t happen,” Lee said. “We’re no closer today with anybody else.”
Any of the downtown Milwaukee office projects will likely need two anchor tenants and about 75 to 80 percent of the space pre-leased to obtain financing, several real estate sources said. Besides Godfrey & Kahn and Von Briesen & Roper the other major tenant that is in the market for downtown office space is Baker Tilly Virchow Krause LLP, currently located in Honey Creek Corporate Park at 115 S. 84th St., on Milwaukee’s west side.

I've always liked the Washington Square proposal, it would be awesome if they could get the original 35-story version built but that won't happen. If they can get 25 stories I'd be happy (if they decide to go with that developer).

sorry that was supposed to be in quotes not italics, i'm dumb.

sorry that was supposed to be in quotes not italics, i'm dumb.

So just edit it :)

http://www.biztimes.com/realestateweekly/2010/5/19/#irgens-probable-office-building-developer-for-godfrey-kahn
[I]
If Milwaukee law firm Godfey & Kahn S.C. moves its corporate headquarters to a new office building in downtown Milwaukee, that building will probably be developed by Wauwatosa-based Irgens Developer Partners LLC, according to several Milwaukee commercial real estate sources.
“We have been working with Godfrey & Kahn for some time to identify a new location for them,” said Irgens executive vice president Jackie Walsh.
Godfrey & Kahn is one of several Milwaukee law firms that has provided legal services for Irgens, Walsh said.
“We’re still waiting to see if a project comes together,” said Godfrey & Kahn managing partner Rick Bliss. “We have a very high regard for Irgens and that organization. They are just a very high-quality organization. If Irgens can put a building together we would be very attracted to that. We haven’t nailed anything down with anybody yet. We’re still waiting for something to come together.”
Godfrey & Kahn’s headquarters is currently located in the M&I Bank corporate headquarters building at 780 N. Water St. in downtown Milwaukee. The firm is out of room to expand there and has indicated for years that it will eventually need to move out of the building. The firm needs about 90,000 square feet of space.
Irgens had been planning to build an office building that would be anchored by Godfrey & Kahn next to the Milwaukee Athletic Club at 758 N. Broadway in downtown Milwaukee. However, that project has been put on hold and Irgens is looking for alternative sites, Walsh said.
Several commercial real estate brokers say the project at the Milwaukee Athletic Club site is “dead.” The property adjacent to the Milwaukee Athletic Club is a complicated site with a parking lot, parking structure and a fire station.
“In looking at the Milwaukee Athletic Club project, it’s not a simple deal,” Walsh said.
Irgens is considering several options for a downtown office building project, Walsh said. The company could identify another site to build an office building, or Irgens may partner with another developer for a project, she said. Several other developers have proposed office buildings in downtown Milwaukee.
One possibility is that Irgens will partner with developer Joel Lee, president of Van Buren Management Inc., on the Washington Square development southeast of Mason Street and Jefferson Street, which Lee has been working on for several years. However, contrary to a published report last week, Lee and Irgens have not formed a partnership to work on the project, Lee and Walsh told BizTimes Milwaukee.
If he builds Washington Square, Lee said he would add a partner for the project. He said there are three Milwaukee area developers that he would consider partnering with, and one of them is Irgens. He declined to name the other two.
The building would be 20 to 30 stories tall, but otherwise Lee said he has no specific plans and that he has no tenants committed to the project.
Lee said he has made numerous presentations about the project for years to potential tenants, including Von Briesen & Roper S.C., which is currently located at 411 E. Wisconsin Ave. and is considering several options to re-locate its headquarters.


I've always liked the Washington Square proposal, it would be awesome if they could get the original 35-story version built but that won't happen. If they can get 25 stories I'd be happy (if they decide to go with that developer).

Man I hope this happens, hopefully they can get a few more tenants on board!!!!! I might settle for 25 stories but hey, I'm hoping for at least 30!!!!!

Sports complex proposed for vacant industrial building draws opposition
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel

Posted: May 19, 2010

A proposal to convert a vacant industrial building in Milwaukee's Riverwest area into a sports complex has run into opposition from nearby industrial companies.

Courthouse Sports Complex would be in a 116,000-square-foot building, at 301 E. Vienna Ave., which housed Production Stamping Corp. before it closed in 2007.

Courthouse would include areas for football, soccer, basketball, volleyball and tennis. It would host youth sports events and have about 15 full-time and 40 part-time employees, according to the proposal filed with the city Board of Zoning Appeals.

The development needs a special use permit from the board because the building, owned by a Chicago-area investment group, is zoned for light industrial use. Objections have been filed by six neighboring industrial and distribution businesses: Lafayette Testing Services Inc., Johnson Brothers Beverages Inc., Elias Grinding Co., Reinke & Schomann Inc., In-Place Machining Co. and Dodco Inc.

They say traffic from Courthouse's customers would interfere with truck traffic making deliveries and pick-ups, and the area is meant for industrial purposes.

The Department of City Development also objects, saying Courthouse would be an incompatible use for the area, spokesman Jeff Fleming said.

Addi Hayes, a construction trades worker who is leading the effort to develop the sports complex, said the objections took him by surprise.

Hayes said Courthouse would include a 166-space parking lot, as well as street parking on three sides of the building. Most of the sports events would be on weekends or after 3 p.m. on weekdays, when there's less truck traffic generated by the businesses, he said.



Hm... I'm not sure why they'd be opposed to this. The hours would be different and Mike Heagans is right in the middle of the largest industrial park in the State and it does just fine.

http://www.biztimes.com/realestateweekly/2010/5/19/#irgens-probable-office-building-developer-for-godfrey-kahn

If Milwaukee law firm Godfey & Kahn S.C. moves its corporate headquarters to a new office building in downtown Milwaukee, that building will probably be developed by Wauwatosa-based Irgens Developer Partners LLC, according to several Milwaukee commercial real estate sources.
“We have been working with Godfrey & Kahn for some time to identify a new location for them,” said Irgens executive vice president Jackie Walsh.
Godfrey & Kahn is one of several Milwaukee law firms that has provided legal services for Irgens, Walsh said.
“We’re still waiting to see if a project comes together,” said Godfrey & Kahn managing partner Rick Bliss. “We have a very high regard for Irgens and that organization. They are just a very high-quality organization. If Irgens can put a building together we would be very attracted to that. We haven’t nailed anything down with anybody yet. We’re still waiting for something to come together.”
Godfrey & Kahn’s headquarters is currently located in the M&I Bank corporate headquarters building at 780 N. Water St. in downtown Milwaukee. The firm is out of room to expand there and has indicated for years that it will eventually need to move out of the building. The firm needs about 90,000 square feet of space.
Irgens had been planning to build an office building that would be anchored by Godfrey & Kahn next to the Milwaukee Athletic Club at 758 N. Broadway in downtown Milwaukee. However, that project has been put on hold and Irgens is looking for alternative sites, Walsh said.
Several commercial real estate brokers say the project at the Milwaukee Athletic Club site is “dead.” The property adjacent to the Milwaukee Athletic Club is a complicated site with a parking lot, parking structure and a fire station.
“In looking at the Milwaukee Athletic Club project, it’s not a simple deal,” Walsh said.
Irgens is considering several options for a downtown office building project, Walsh said. The company could identify another site to build an office building, or Irgens may partner with another developer for a project, she said. Several other developers have proposed office buildings in downtown Milwaukee.
One possibility is that Irgens will partner with developer Joel Lee, president of Van Buren Management Inc., on the Washington Square development southeast of Mason Street and Jefferson Street, which Lee has been working on for several years. However, contrary to a published report last week, Lee and Irgens have not formed a partnership to work on the project, Lee and Walsh told BizTimes Milwaukee.
If he builds Washington Square, Lee said he would add a partner for the project. He said there are three Milwaukee area developers that he would consider partnering with, and one of them is Irgens. He declined to name the other two.
The building would be 20 to 30 stories tall, but otherwise Lee said he has no specific plans and that he has no tenants committed to the project.
Lee said he has made numerous presentations about the project for years to potential tenants, including Von Briesen & Roper S.C., which is currently located at 411 E. Wisconsin Ave. and is considering several options to re-locate its headquarters.
“I thought we were very close two years ago with Associated Bank and it didn’t happen,” Lee said. “We’re no closer today with anybody else.”
Any of the downtown Milwaukee office projects will likely need two anchor tenants and about 75 to 80 percent of the space pre-leased to obtain financing, several real estate sources said. Besides Godfrey & Kahn and Von Briesen & Roper the other major tenant that is in the market for downtown office space is Baker Tilly Virchow Krause LLP, currently located in Honey Creek Corporate Park at 115 S. 84th St., on Milwaukee’s west side.

I've always liked the Washington Square proposal, it would be awesome if they could get the original 35-story version built but that won't happen. If they can get 25 stories I'd be happy (if they decide to go with that developer).


This is exactly what we need in order for a decent sized building to be built... we need several anchor tenants to come together and most likely several developers. I won't hold my breathe, but it's good to know that they're at least talking about it.

So I realized this morning... If Direct Supply had decided a few years ago to move downtown instead of expanding their current campus on the northwest side, they would fill a building larger then the US bank building if using the same sq footage that they do now (which is doubtful b/c there's a lot of wasted space on the campus right now... but still it would be probably around/almost 1.5 million sq ft).

That's too bad. Same with Kohl's once they expand, it's so lame that businesses have to be spread out all over the region and more can't locate downtown. Would make it much denser and pave the way for even more businesses to locate there.

by the way, i have a request for anyone with a nice camera and a day with nothing better to do: could you do a photo tour of Whitnall Park and the Boerner Botanical Gardens? that would be super cool for everyone to see. thanks!

by the way, i have a request for anyone with a nice camera and a day with nothing better to do: could you do a photo tour of Whitnall Park and the Boerner Botanical Gardens? that would be super cool for everyone to see. thanks!

speaking of parks, does anyone know what all the work being done to the steep hillside of Kilbourn Reservoir Park is all about?

speaking of parks, does anyone know what all the work being done to the steep hillside of Kilbourn Reservoir Park is all about?

I was going to ask about this as well.

In addition, does anyone know what the hell they're doing to Cambridge & North? The end of Cambridge there has been blocked for like two weeks, and the machinery they have set up there is unlike anything I've ever seen.

The very strange day-long sunny fog made for some great photo ops if you had a quality camera on hand. I didn't but this would have been awesome looking if I did, and was in person. The depth and detail of the reflections isn't really apparent here, but oh well, you get the idea:


http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f214/dresphotos/3-1.jpg


A video driving down Farwell as the sun's reflection through the fog moved off of each passing building would have looked quite cool as well.

speaking of parks, does anyone know what all the work being done to the steep hillside of Kilbourn Reservoir Park is all about?

Wasn't there a landslide there at the end of last year sometime? They might have been repairing that.

speaking of parks, does anyone know what all the work being done to the steep hillside of Kilbourn Reservoir Park is all about?

It's all about landscaping. They are restoring the American Legion Star emblem--made of various flower plantings-- that once adorned the slope.

It ought to be done in time for the American Legion's National Convention, which is being held in Milwaukee this August.

wow that's really cool

by the way, i have a request for anyone with a nice camera and a day with nothing better to do: could you do a photo tour of Whitnall Park and the Boerner Botanical Gardens? that would be super cool for everyone to see. thanks!

I'll try and get out there on one of my days off this week. Been meaning to try out my new Rebel Xsi, and I take my daughter to Whitnall all the time if the weather is nice.

much appreciated, sir!

It's all about landscaping. They are restoring the American Legion Star emblem--made of various flower plantings-- that once adorned the slope.

It ought to be done in time for the American Legion's National Convention, which is being held in Milwaukee this August.

ahhh... thanks... must be to compliment the victory gardens put in nearby last summer..

The final approval for a federal loan guarantee to finance the planned downtown Moderne apartment high-rise is expected within 30 to 60 days, project developer Rick Barrett told a Milwaukee Common Council committee Monday.

But that would be months after the scheduled February groundbreaking for the Moderne, which will have 203 apartments and 14 condos at the southwest corner of W. Juneau Ave. and N. Old World 3rd St.

Barrett is waiting for the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development to provide the guarantee.

HUD's local office granted preliminary approval last fall for the guarantee, which applies to a $41.4 million loan from the AFL-CIO Housing Investment Trust. The council in November approved $9.3 million in city loans for the Moderne, which also will have at least $4.3 million in equity financing from Barrett and his partners.

Final approval has been delayed largely because HUD nationwide is swamped by a huge increase in loan guarantee applications, Department of City Development officials told members of the council's Zoning, Neighborhoods and Development Committee. That's occurring because banks and insurance companies have cut back on commercial real estate loans, said department official James Scherer.

"This is the only game in town," Scherer said.

Lori Lutzka, another department official, said there's no indication HUD will back away from providing final approval.

"It's just a matter of when," she said.

Lutzka said the federal agency was requiring Barrett and his partners to provide more capital reserves to obtain the guarantee. That requirement will reduce the lending risk for both HUD and the city, she said.

Loss of trust
Ald. Robert Bauman and other committee members said they were frustrated with the delays, especially since Department of City Development Commissioner Rocky Marcoux last fall urged the council to act promptly on approving the city loans after HUD issued its preliminary approval.

"We were told, 'You can't hold this up,' " said Bauman, who questioned whether city development officials can be trusted.

Scherer said development department officials urged the council last fall to move forward with a decision on the Moderne loans because "we saw no reason not to go forward."

Bauman last fall initially sought to delay a council decision on the Moderne loans until another planned downtown apartment high-rise, proposed by New Land Enterprises, could seek city financing. Bauman said it made sense to consider both projects at the same time.

Bauman later joined a majority of the aldermen in approving the Moderne loans. Meanwhile, HUD's local office said it would not provide a loan guarantee for the New Land project, known as Bookends North.

Jsonline (http://www.jsonline.com/business/94790419.html)

Cannot wait for this to happen

In addition, does anyone know what the hell they're doing to Cambridge & North? The end of Cambridge there has been blocked for like two weeks, and the machinery they have set up there is unlike anything I've ever seen.



Quoted for redundancy. Srsly tho, Markitect? Anyone? I'm not sure why but it genuinely bothers me that I can't find anything on this. Is it maybe sewage work to prepare for connections to the new dorms across the street?

Quoted for redundancy. Srsly tho, Markitect? Anyone? I'm not sure why but it genuinely bothers me that I can't find anything on this. Is it maybe sewage work to prepare for connections to the new dorms across the street?

No idea what it's for, but it sure is inconvenient. If it's not for the dorms, then maybe they could have waited until the Humboldt bridge was done before they closed off one of the alternative routes.

Quoted for redundancy. Srsly tho, Markitect? Anyone? I'm not sure why but it genuinely bothers me that I can't find anything on this. Is it maybe sewage work to prepare for connections to the new dorms across the street?

i talked to public works about it... it's a sewage line project that should be done in about 2 - 3 weeks.

"Fast forward a few years and assume that the Bucks were able to land a new arena in Milwaukee. Let’s assume that arena was built in the Park East lot north of the Bradley Center (what today is a large piece of gravel where a freeway once stood), and that the tenant list includes the Milwaukee Bucks, Marquette men’s basketball team, huge concerts, and Milwaukee Admirals. Milwaukee enters into a unique situation of having three arenas in a row. Being that Milwaukee doesn’t have the need for three facilities in excess of 10,000+ seats in the region, let alone next to one another, which do you get rid of?



The arenas as they would be aligned in the assumed future world. US Cellular Arena
The US Cellular Arena, previously known as the MECCA, would be the oldest of the three arenas. Seating a max of 12,700 people, the arena is also the smallest of the three. It’s smaller size allows it to host mid-sized events with ease though, including tenants such as the UW-Milwaukee men’s basketball team and Milwaukee Wave. Compared to the Bradley Center it is severely lacking in amenities, with the concourse definitely showing the building’s age with bathrooms off the main-level and limited concession areas. The arena also lacks luxury boxes or any sort of club. It lacks an attached parking garage, but is adjacent to many. It posses a smaller footprint than the Bradley Center, is located directly to the east of the Milwaukee Theatre, and is across the street from what in our future world is known as the Frontier Airlines Center. Along with the Midwest/Frontier Airlines Center and Milwaukee Theatre it is operated by the Wisconsin Center District.

A recently floated idea of an on-campus arena for UWM would lower the utilization of the US Cellular Arena dramatically, but the leave of absence that UWM placed Athletic Director George Koonce on shortly after the idea was announced seems to indicate that egg isn’t about to hatch. It’s also possible that, with or without UWM calling “The Cell” home, the Milwaukee Admirals still might find their way back to the stadium they once called home, as might the Arena Football League’s Milwaukee Iron.

Even with a new arena in the neighborhood, the US Cellular Arena seems poised for business as usual, if not growth.

Bradley Center
The Bradley Center, a gift to the state from Jane Petitt in memory of her father Harry Lynde Bradley, it seats a maximum of 18,600 people for basketball. With sight lines built for hockey (the Petitt’s tried to land an NHL team in Milwaukee), the stadium may still be an ideal home for the Milwaukee Admirals even after a new stadium is built. The Admirals, however, rarely require use of the upper seating bowl, similar to the arena football team, the Milwaukee Iron. Keeping a stadium to use half its capacity seems extremely unlikely. It seems most likely that the Admirals would be forced to move into either the new stadium or their previously mentioned old home. The Bradley Center, despite drawing over 2 million attendees to over 150 events a year, would likely see the least use in a future with a new arena.

Is it possible that only the Bucks would move to a new arena and everyone else would stay at “the Fortress on Fourth”? It’s possible, but it’s unlikely. The hockey sight lines and lacking amenities (stadium restaurant(s), more clubs) make the Bradley Center unattractive to Marquette as well when a new venue is available. Presumably entertainers will play where they can make the most money, and it seems that a new arena should be able to out-earn an old arena for a host of reasons including acoustic quality and amenities.

Could the Bradley Center land a new tenant if a new arena opens? UWM seems unlikely to move their basketball program to a bigger arena, as they don’t routinely push the capacity of the US Cellular Arena. The same goes for the Milwaukee Wave.

Would an NHL team move to Milwaukee to become the primary tenant at the Bradley Center? That seems extremely unlikely, despite the fact that there are multiple teams in the NHL either in dire financial straits or actively looking to move (Phoenix Coyotes being first on the list). The biggest deterrent is that multiple studies have now shown Milwaukee to be overextended when it comes to supporting professional sports, the most recent coming from Bizjournals. The second biggest deterrent will be the fact that a team is unlikely to move to a market where there is a 25+ year old stadium with known revenue-generating deficiencies. Even if the Bucks were to leave Milwaukee, it’s hard to see a NHL team coming.

The Bradley Center does have some positives going for it. The state of Wisconsin, the stadium’s owner, recently committed to a tw0-year capital project to modernize the arena with $5 million in funding that will go towards a $23 million renovation. The project will ultimately include replacing seat cushions (the same ones are in place since the building opened), upgrading the HVAC system, replacing the ice rink system, roof repairs, and other improvements. The most visible improvement from the project might be the new scoreboard that will be put in place next year, replacing the horribly out-dated one the arena currently has. The new scoreboard is something that would likely be moved to a new arena when one is ultimately built. it’s unclear how many of the renovations will actually happen before planning for a new stadium becomes a big issue.

Redevelopment Options

The two existing arenas.
Supposing either building was to be demolished, what could be gained from the land they occupy?

The Bradley Center has a much bigger footprint than the US Cellular Arena, and therefore provides a much greater opportunity (although the Park East project has shown having lots of available land might not be the best short-term blessing). A large infill project could be undertaken to develop an urban, mixed-use neighborhood between the two arenas, similar in scale to what the Mandel Group is doing with The North End or what happened at Bayshore Town Center. A single-use retail project could also happen with shops, restaurants, and bars built on the former Bradley Center land, this seems far less desirable from an urban planning standpoint of trying to make a more active downtown. Or the land could go the way most of County Stadium did and simply become surface parking, but that seems extremely undesirable.

The US Cellular Arena land could be redeveloped, although the scale of the redevelopment is much smaller. The smaller scale could mean the land is redeveloped faster (much as the City’s, as opposed to the County’s, parcels were in the Park East). First-floor commercial space is a given in that location, but what goes above it is far from certain. It’s unlikely top-tier Class A office space will go on that site, nor would it make sense to put simply a parking garage in (unless another major redevelopment like the Journal Sentinel parking lot and buildings happened). Given the constraints of the site, it seems more likely that a few moderate sized apartment buildings would go in with the commercial spaces.

Final Thoughts
When all is said and done and a new arena is in place, it appears to make the most sense to demolish and redevelop the Bradley Center. If left standing, the arena would become a black hole downtown, with quite possibly zero tenants. The arena, despite being 35+ years newer than the US Cellular Arena, is near or at the end of its economically viable life. It was built to serve an NHL team that never came, and lacks the quality seating and amenities that its peers like the Conseco Fieldhouse, Target Center, and United Center possess. Even with renovations it will be a dated arena. The 60-year-old US Cellular Arena on the other hand continues to be a viable home for an indoor soccer team and mid-major college basketball team, even if a new arena were to be built. Small improvements could go a long way to keeping the US Cellular Arena economically viable for medium-sized tenants for the foreseeable future.

Bring on the Rockwell Automation Arena."

http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2010/05/19/tear-it-down-us-cellular-arena-vs-bradley-center/

Article about UrbanMilwaukee.com

click here (http://links.urbanmilwaukee.com/urban-bloggers-seek-to-drive-city-s-direction-)

Just read that and saw you had just posted that here, congrats Dave! I enjoy reading all of the articles on your site. it's good to see that more people are taking notice.

Thanks!... I might not post here as often as I used to, but the skyscrapers community helped get UM going.

Congrats on the article Dave and Jeramey! Strangely enough, the comments on the JS after the article haven't yet devolved into a partisan slime match (yet).

News about Alterra in Bay View, from Tom Daykin at the JS:

Alterra's Bay View project gains final city approval (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/94843509.html)

So did anyone else see the blurb about the "Erie Plaza" located near Riptide in the 3rd Ward?

"Authorized negotiations to lease the Erie St. Plaza to the Historic Third Ward Association or the Third Ward business improvement district. The plaza was once slated to be the site of a bamboo garden, but city officials are revising those plans to instead use quaking aspens, a native tree better suited to Wisconsin's climate."

Link: http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/94839479.html

So that's great....an innovative urban plaza turned into......a few aspens at the end of a dead end street. It's just another disappointing revelation for the downtown area. Sad.

Wow! Nice publicity!

I didn't realize you guys got that many hits each month, way to go! Although I regularly disagree with a lot of your ideas I still love following your site and the discussion. Congrats again!

@Coldwake Thanks... I think we all want a better Milwaukee, just have different thoughts on how.. That's fine, and well good! And thanks!!

PS That's actually our low numbers... When things get busy those get much better.

You know --- I've seen some bamboo gardens in several northern areas (and in southern parts of the US as well) - and I think they often start to look pretty sloppy before too long. Quaking aspens sound nicer to me. Bamboo can start to look like a bunch of overgrown weeds pretty easily. Just my opinion.

Article about UrbanMilwaukee.com

click here (http://links.urbanmilwaukee.com/urban-bloggers-seek-to-drive-city-s-direction-)

Just read it online. Keep up the good work.

So did anyone else see the blurb about the "Erie Plaza" located near Riptide in the 3rd Ward?

"Authorized negotiations to lease the Erie St. Plaza to the Historic Third Ward Association or the Third Ward business improvement district. The plaza was once slated to be the site of a bamboo garden, but city officials are revising those plans to instead use quaking aspens, a native tree better suited to Wisconsin's climate."

Link: http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/94839479.html

So that's great....an innovative urban plaza turned into......a few aspens at the end of a dead end street. It's just another disappointing revelation for the downtown area. Sad.

There was more information on the Art City blog (link) (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/entertainment/artcity.html?tag=Erie+Street+Plaza):

--

The city’s once stalled plans to create a petite, bamboo-studded plaza in the Third Ward, are moving forward – sort of.

Bamboo is no longer part of the plan for the small park, the Erie Street Plaza which overlooks the Milwaukee harbor at the terminus of Erie St. The city did some test plantings and found that bamboo wasn’t suited to Midwestern climes.

“We watched it and it seemed to look good for a while,” said Ghassan Korban, coordination manager for the Department of Public Works. “After the past winter, however, it didn’t survive.”

Plans for the park have been on hold for more than 3 years due to higher-than-expected costs and a lawsuit filed against the city by Frontage LLC over parking-related issues. But construction has resumed in recent weeks, and the quarter-acre plaza may be done in time for Summerfest, Korban said.

The park was designed by Stoss Landscape Urbanism of Boston, which won an international competition for the project. Stoss worked with the city to take some of the costs out of the design after the city received only one bid in 2006, which was $1.2 million, or $350,000 over budget.

One of the casualties of that cost-carving process was the below-ground steam planters that would have supported the bamboo and offered some heat for park visitors when temperatures fell below 50 degrees.

The city will plant Quaking Aspens instead, a native tree that Korban says is visually similar to the bamboo. The trees have fairly straight, thin trunks, he said, and are white with yellow leaves. Also, plans for lighted, fiberglass benches have been minimized, a series of uniquely-shaped modular pavers have been replaced with standardized bricks and an area of plantings near the water’s edge will be replaced with a concrete path to make the area wheelchair accessible, Korban said.

Stoss and the city have had to agree to disagree on some of the changes, Korban said. The city attempted to “protect the spirit of the project,” he added.

“Personally, I am very excited about the design,” said Nancy O’Keefe, executive director of the History Third Ward Association, of the changed plans. “It’s slick.”

Great job, guys. Way to spark some dialogue, and I'm glad you're getting some good press, too.

Article about UrbanMilwaukee.com

click here (http://links.urbanmilwaukee.com/urban-bloggers-seek-to-drive-city-s-direction-)

Article about UrbanMilwaukee.com

click here (http://links.urbanmilwaukee.com/urban-bloggers-seek-to-drive-city-s-direction-)

This is great! Your hard work is paying off.

So that's great....an innovative urban plaza turned into......a few aspens at the end of a dead end street. It's just another disappointing revelation for the downtown area. Sad.

I reserve judgment until I see the updated renderings, but it sounds pretty ho-hum. The aspens are beautiful trees, but it just isn't the same. I guess I can part with the bamboo, but the heaters and lighted benches would have been pretty cool.

Article about UrbanMilwaukee.com

click here (http://links.urbanmilwaukee.com/urban-bloggers-seek-to-drive-city-s-direction-)

Congrats! I love reading your site, posting there occasionally, and reading the opinions that are posted on there. Glad to hear the hard work has payed off and the site got recognition. 10,000 readers is a pretty impressive tally. I am always suprised at the amount of people here in Milwaukee that are interested in this subject. :cheers:

I reserve judgment until I see the updated renderings, but it sounds pretty ho-hum. The aspens are beautiful trees, but it just isn't the same. I guess I can part with the bamboo, but the heaters and lighted benches would have been pretty cool.

I agree... it sounds like just another case of Milwaukee settling on the status-quo. Pre-cut, boring concrete; no movement to get the original vision built the way it was supposed to be, essentially guaranteeing that this plaza will now forever be condemned to be less than spectacular. It would have been better to hold off on the project, I think, until the funds were raised to do it right.

Sometimes I think it is downright blasphemous that Wisconsin calls itself a "progressive state" and claims its state quote to be "Forward". Maybe this is just bizarro-Wisconsin because these days almost the exact opposite seems to usually be true.

I agree... it sounds like just another case of Milwaukee settling on the status-quo. Pre-cut, boring concrete; no movement to get the original vision built the way it was supposed to be, essentially guaranteeing that this plaza will now forever be condemned to be less than spectacular. It would have been better to hold off on the project, I think, until the funds were raised to do it right.

Sometimes I think it is downright blasphemous that Wisconsin calls itself a "progressive state" and claims its state quote to be "Forward". Maybe this is just bizarro-Wisconsin because these days almost the exact opposite seems to usually be true.

That area is a hidden nook, so leaving it as is wouldn't be a real problem for me. But who knows if that would ever happen, so might as well build it. It's not really in a prominent location. Now, if this was to go down with a redesign of Cathedral Square, Juneau Park, or MacArthur Square---it would suck because those are very visible.

I am always happy as long as they keep improving the city because while I know the could do more if they really wanted, they could also do less.

Huge fan of UrbanMilwaukee, congrats on all your accomplishments and all the hard work that must have gone into it.

UrbanMilwaukee is a great site and very informative. I almost never disagree with any of their views.

I think i'd be really cool if UrbanMilwaukee could tackle the biggest issue Milwaukee has. How to we end the segregation that cripples our city? And further more, how do we end the sabotage against Milwaukee from its western, and northern suburbs (mostly western).

I swear, if you go on Jsonline and read anything that has to do with a black or latino person, you will read some of the most hate filled and ignorant posts. And its always people from the burbs who have the most hate filled comments.

If Milwaukee wants to become known as an international player, it really needs to become a unified city and crush its suburban opposition (i.e sykes, schrima, belling, am talk radio, almost all of Waukesha).

UrbanMilwaukee is a great site and very informative. I almost never disagree with any of their views.

I think i'd be really cool if UrbanMilwaukee could tackle the biggest issue Milwaukee has. How to we end the segregation that cripples our city? And further more, how do we end the sabotage against Milwaukee from its western, and northern suburbs (mostly western).

I swear, if you go on Jsonline and read anything that has to do with a black or latino person, you will read some of the most hate filled and ignorant posts. And its always people from the burbs who have the most hate filled comments.

If Milwaukee wants to become known as an international player, it really needs to become a unified city and crush its suburban opposition (i.e sykes, schrima, belling, am talk radio, almost all of Waukesha).

I've never viewed Milwaukee as an intolerant city, just an apathetic city. People live in their areas and nobody really cares if you wander outside your boundary (unlike many large cities in this country.)

I think Milwaukee really needs to focus on neighborhood development and promotion. There are some great districts here and the segregation is starting to make them even more unique. I love what has happened in Lincoln Village and Cesar Chavez.

The problem with segregation here is that money for public works projects is not distributed equally. If Milwaukee focuses on developing neighborhood centers with the walkability and mixed-use nature of Brady Street and Lincoln Village, the segregated population could create some very interesting cultural centers. I can't help but think about turning the intersection of Fond Du Lac and Center into a hub of African-American culture.

One thing I've found in many cities, notably Detroit, Cincinnati, and Cleveland, is that public markets tend to be a catalyst for diversity. Everybody wants fresh food and people seem to put aside their differences at those venues. Milwaukee has a bunch of smaller neighborhood markets, which are great, but we also have the Fondy Farmers Market which could easily be a regional powerhouse if we could change people's perception of the place, and not necessarily the neighborhood. (See Findlay Market in Cincinnati as an example. Most people recognize the surrounding neighborhood as the worst in the city, but they flock to the market when it's open.)

Another great example of a market is the Midtown Global Market in Minneapolis. One of the perks of that market in that it's indoors, which would really be useful in a cold weather city like Milwaukee. With the vacant land across the street from the Fondy Market, there's potential to turn that intersection into a healthy indoor/outdoor year round market with secure parking for suburbanites.

Essentially all Im saying is that it might be healthier for the city to foster it's unique places and promote them equally than it would be to homogenize them.

UrbanMilwaukee is a great site and very informative. I almost never disagree with any of their views.

I think i'd be really cool if UrbanMilwaukee could tackle the biggest issue Milwaukee has. How to we end the segregation that cripples our city? And further more, how do we end the sabotage against Milwaukee from its western, and northern suburbs (mostly western).

I swear, if you go on Jsonline and read anything that has to do with a black or latino person, you will read some of the most hate filled and ignorant posts. And its always people from the burbs who have the most hate filled comments.

If Milwaukee wants to become known as an international player, it really needs to become a unified city and crush its suburban opposition (i.e sykes, schrima, belling, am talk radio, almost all of Waukesha).

At the risk of pissing people off, alot of these comments aren't all that ignorant. Sure, some people are downright insulting and mean---but often are they making a point that nobody wants to say. There is a genuine fear of younger black kids in this city. The vast majority of murders occur in those neighorhoods between younger blacks. Many black students in Milwaukee in MPS are having a tough go of things. It is quite obvious they are the reason Greek Fest was moved to State Fair, why there is security at Chuck E Cheese/some Milwaukee Public Libraries, why they don't book rap acts at Summerfest and removed the Midway, one of the reasons why RiverSplash was cancelled for good, were a concern for PabstCity, why Mayfair had to change their entire policy and why huge swaths of this city are essentially business dead zones. This is why you will see some of these sorts of posts on JSOnline in regards to Dave and Busters in Tosa or that new downtown movie theater. I really don't find this to be racist as racism is hatred of everybody. There are very few real racists in this country. Fear of young, troublemaking, intimidating kids is not racism. The vast majority of people in this state and country are tolerant and have no problem with blacks and Latinos. It's not a race thing. It's an age and attitude concern.

I also have to disagree with your ideas of crushing opposition, which is basically tantamount to becoming a one political party metro area. Not to get into politics because I don't want to get banned, but thats not a very smart idea. There should be opposition to things. Why should people have to stand by and pay for things like trains that they will never use or be serviced by? The suburbs have rights too. Right now, mass transit isn't a must have for Milwaukee. It would be nice don't get me wrong, but why should people roll over to this sort of stuff? Building a street cars we really don't need at this time (with the economy and budget concerns) is like a single mother of four on unemployment buying as PS3. None of this stuff really has to do with us becoming an international player. Chicago has many of the same problems as we do. Building trains will not give us more of an international presence. Making this city more business friendly so large corporations move here will. More of our citizens deciding to finally stand up for themselves and start focusing on education/saving money/getting jobs instead of being happy as deadbeats blaming everybody but themselves is a good step in a right direction. Washing this city clear of crime, drug usage, prostitution, and other problems is important too.

At the risk of pissing people off, alot of these comments aren't all that ignorant. Sure, some people are downright insulting and mean---but often are they making a point that nobody wants to say. There is a genuine fear of younger black kids in this city. The vast majority of murders occur in those neighorhoods between younger blacks. Many black students in Milwaukee in MPS are having a tough go of things. It is quite obvious they are the reason Greek Fest was moved to State Fair, why there is security at Chuck E Cheese/some Milwaukee Public Libraries, why they don't book rap acts at Summerfest and removed the Midway, one of the reasons why RiverSplash was cancelled for good, were a concern for PabstCity, why Mayfair had to change their entire policy and why huge swaths of this city are essentially business dead zones. This is why you will see some of these sorts of posts on JSOnline in regards to Dave and Busters in Tosa or that new downtown movie theater. I really don't find this to be racist as racism is hatred of everybody. There are very few real racists in this country. Fear of young, troublemaking, intimidating kids is not racism. The vast majority of people in this state and country are tolerant and have no problem with blacks and Latinos. It's not a race thing. It's an age and attitude concern.


What pisses me off though, is that most of the time, it's only a few idiots who are there to start trouble. For example, if a fight breaks out at Mayfair or the lakefront, it draws a massive crowd of black kids who are simply trying to SEE a fight, not be in one. But to the white people who piss their pants when they see such a massive crowd of black kids, it looks much worse than it actually is.

What pisses me off though, is that most of the time, it's only a few idiots who are there to start trouble. For example, if a fight breaks out Mayfair, it draws a massive crowd of black kids who are simply trying to SEE a fight, not be in one. But to the white people who piss their pants when they see such a massive crowd of black kids, it looks much worse than it actually is.

yeah, it's always a few people that have to ruin it for everybody---whether their black, white, young or old. Some of these idiots take it too far and create a big scene.

I have to agree about some of these white people though. I can understand being wary of certain neighborhoods of Milwaukee. But these people who think the Mayfair parking lots or downtown Milwaukee are unsafe are just ridiculous. I can recall people talking about safety concerns at Bradford Beach and the Lakefront for godsake! :lol:

yeah, it's always a few people that have to ruin it for everybody---whether their black, white, young or old. Some of these idiots take it too far and create a big scene.

I have to agree about some of these white people though. I can understand being wary of certain neighborhoods of Milwaukee. But these people who think the Mayfair parking lots or downtown Milwaukee are unsafe are just ridiculous. I can recall people talking about safety concerns at Bradford Beach and the Lakefront for godsake! :lol:

:lol: yeah, it's gotten to the point where it's not even offensive anymore, it's just flat out comical

:lol: yeah, it's gotten to the point where it's not even offensive anymore, it's just flat out comical

lol I agree. Some people are just scared of everything. :lol:

It's true... except all those other kidsthat show up to "see" the fight are usually there because their friends called them. Outside of my apartment on farwell one night, near pizza shuttle, a small fight started and literally in under a minute there was at least 50 people there fighting or standing around. Cars would come out of no where, it was crazy! I can totally see why people would be intimidated by that.

So did anyone else see the blurb about the "Erie Plaza" located near Riptide in the 3rd Ward?

"Authorized negotiations to lease the Erie St. Plaza to the Historic Third Ward Association or the Third Ward business improvement district. The plaza was once slated to be the site of a bamboo garden, but city officials are revising those plans to instead use quaking aspens, a native tree better suited to Wisconsin's climate."

Link: http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/94839479.html

So that's great....an innovative urban plaza turned into......a few aspens at the end of a dead end street. It's just another disappointing revelation for the downtown area. Sad.

Bamboo that can survive a Wisconsin winter is extremely invasive. There is a house in Queens that started with a few bamboos a few years ago and now the entire property and a few of the neighbor's yards are bamboo forests. Lamentably the media hasn't done much to cover this, if only because there isn't much room in NYC for an invasive tree species to be of worry.

http://www.scoutingny.com/?p=1205

Well that and it's all cement around there. :)

Invasiveness of bamboo depends on what type is being planted (of which there are over 1400 different species), how they are planted, and how they are maintained. The original design for the Erie Street Plaza with the bamboo stands would indeed have worked out just fine.

Generally bamboo falls into two categories: running and clump.

Running bamboo, as the name implies, can be incredibly invasive. It will spread like wildfire if proper care is not taken to prepare the ground before they are planted, and if they are not vigilantly maintained after being planted. Surrounding the bamboo with concrete and/or types of ground cover and soil in which they cannot spread their roots is one way to prevent them from spreading uncontrollably. Planting the bamboo so their roots are contained within a buried fabric barrier is another way of keeping them in check. Once they start to grow, they'll have to be looked after, to make sure the roots aren't spreading and new bamboo shoots aren't growing in an area they're not supposed to be--otherwise they'll have to be cut down and the roots severed. Running bamboo can certainly grow in colder climates such as Wisconsin.

Clump bamboo, on the other hand, does just what it's name says: it doesn't spread out, but grows in clumps--thus its growth is easier to control than running bamboo. It also grows slower and is lower-maintenance.

Generally clump bamboo does not survive too well in a climate like Wisconsin has--they prefer warmer places. However, the Erie Street Plaza bamboo garden was designed with that in mind. The heated planters incorporated into the plaza would have created a warmer microclimate in which the bamboo would still be able to survive.

Unfortunately the only bid that came in for the plaza was overbudget, and there didn't seem to be any willingness to find enough money (via the neighborhood TIF district, the nearby residents and businesses, or private donations) to make the plaza work as originally proposed. That meant the cost had to be reduced...which meant the heaters had to be dropped...which meant the bamboo couldn't be grown...which meant a really creative and unique public space was lost.

UWM Water School announcement coming Thursday

University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee officials are set to announce Thursday that the new School of Freshwater Sciences will split its operations between the harbor, and a site south of downtown.

Most of the school's labs and classrooms apparently will be at UWM’s Great Lakes WATER Institute, which overlooks the harbor at 600 E. Greenfield Ave.

The school's headquarters, a conference center and some classrooms will be at a business park planned for Reed Street Yards, on the Menomonee River canal south of the Harley-Davidson Museum.

As I reported in March, the split resolves a conflict between UWM faculty and scientists, who want the school to be built on the harbor, where they have easy access to Lake Michigan, and UWM Chancellor Carlos Santiago, who says an alternative site in a more attractive location would help raise corporate money for the $50 million project.

Water industry executives say the school needs a high profile and attractive environment to draw more water technology investors and businesses to Milwaukee.

The announcement is to come at 9:30 a.m., during a press briefing by the Milwaukee Water Council, which promotes the local water industry. The Reed Street Yards facility might include offices for the water council.

A council spokesman couldn't be immediately reached for comment.


Link: http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/95460689.html

Does anybody agree with UWM splitting the water school? I think its a horrible mistake, chancellor Santiago has been really dropping the ball. First its putting the engineering school out in Tosa, now its this. All UWM schools should be as close to its campus as possible or at the very least in the city of Milwaukee.

I wish someone would also clarify when final decisions shall be made on the proposed 3 rail projects for SE Wisconsin. Lets say some do get approved, how long will it take to have them up and running?

I like what UWM has going. I'm excited about all of it.

Maybe they can put some kind of streetcar line between the Freshwater school campuses.

And a water taxi.

i think it's very inefficient and shortsighted to separate the two campuses of the water school... ultimately I think the water research park and the university's labs will be at the same location, so this seems like a terribly temporary decision.

Damn coal pile...IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT!

It was going to be split at the Pieces of Eight site too, just replace "Pieces of Eight" with "Reed Street Yards".

I think that this was a good compromise for UWM. Plus, I'm excited that the decision might generate some energy for the water research park. I think the Reed Street location is really cool....let's hope that the design is awesome. The design of this facility will determine whether or not Reed St. Yards becomes either an innovative focal point of the city or just another light-industrial / research park.

I think that this was a good compromise for UWM. Plus, I'm excited that the decision might generate some energy for the water research park. I think the Reed Street location is really cool....let's hope that the design is awesome. The design of this facility will determine whether or not Reed St. Yards becomes either an innovative focal point of the city or just another light-industrial / research park.

an awesome design for the facilities, yes, but i think the city definitely needs to make the infrastructure (streets, sidewalks) around that area much more inviting and alluring as well for this to work.

@MilwaukeeMax Well the S. 2nd Street projects (narrowing, adding trees/lighting) kicks of this summer... So it's a start.

Santiago will go down in University history as The Great Decentralizer, scattering facilities, programs, departments and schools far and wide across the City and neighboring communities.

This decentralization reduces inter-disciplinarian work, cooperation and the overall critical mass of the University in a manner that is completely analogous to the different between a multi-use skyscraper(city) and a suburban business park. UW-Milwaukee, The Dispersed Commuter School.

One can make certain reasonable arguments that the Water School needs to be on the water, of course, but it requires a massive lack of creative thought to assume that the Greenfield site cannot be healed. Therefore, even this smaller scaled singular department needs to be scattered across the City.

Hey, but on the upside, that means there will be TWO projects for architects.

I believe he's transforming the school away from being UW-Milwaukee Upper East Side. It is going to become more visible and accessible to the entire city/county.

Anyone have examples of notable universities that have scattered campus locations?

Although I actually disagree with some of the choices that UWM has been making in regards to locations (mainly the science/engineering/research park in tosa), there are some notable universities that do not have a single, united campus. Nearby, Loyola-Chicago has three campuses, with the liberal arts at their lake shore campus, a medical campus, and a downtown business and law campus.

Not quite as scattered, but definitely higher profile, Duke University has four separate main campuses, with a fifth a significant distance away from Durham on the Atlantic Seaboard (interestingly, this is their marine school, much like the School of Freshwater Sciences needing to be on the water).

I guess my point is I'm not sure that the UWM's aspirations will be limited by their desire to be spread throughout the city, but it does seem that most high profile schools keep one campus, with perhaps a separate campus for their medical school.

Anyone have examples of notable universities that have scattered campus locations?

I don't know if they're "notable" but these large school all have multiple campuses.

Arizona State University
Here's a map: http://www.asu.edu/map/interactive/

University of Minnesota
Here's a map: http://campusmaps.umn.edu/tc/map.php?extent=full#

University of Michigan
Here's a map: http://www.umich.edu/~info/mapsAndDirections.html#anchor_annArbor

San Diego State University has two satellite campuses, both about 2 hours away in Brawley and Calexico.

I think that UWM doesn't have all that much space to expand at its current location, without taking out some flourishing areas, or redeveloping into taller buildings.

While I don't think it to be the main goal in this case, maybe UWM expanding can also be viewed as economic development of sorts for another part of the city. It's nice when a state entity sends investment money your way.

The students I have known who go to Universities with spread out campuses have generally hated it. I know others who have not gone to schools b/c of that. UWM is not on the same level as the schools mentioned so it would be even more of a drawback for them.

At the very least, they could have combined all the schools not on the main campus into one area. The exception maybe being the fresh water sciences.

@Coldwake I'd add that the Engineering School would actually make sense near the Water School as of course they will do work together, but Rockwell is also down there and the Engineering School today does a lot with Rockwell..

Decentralization is not a deal breaker for me. Santiago has a plan for expanding the Upper East Side Campus on it's limited footprint (note the UWM Master Plan (http://www4.uwm.edu/master_plan/)).

As far as splitting the School of Freshwater Sciences I can't speak to the benefits from a fundraising sense but I do understand having an attractive facility in a city that is on the verge of becoming a hub of water research in the world.

I am not a fan of the location of UWM's School of Engineering in Wauwatosa, but the county research park is quickly developing as a regional hub for research and development and I think the Engineering School will fit in there.

True, the country grounds is becoming a regional hub... but you don't have to be right next door to the companies to work with them. A strategic advantage of UWM is having engineering companies in the city to work with... period. The amount of times the staff works with the companies vs the amount of times the students have to commute between the campus does not compare. This is an example of a higher education institution outgrowing their focus on the students and becoming increasingly concerned about grants and money.

That's the main reason more and more people (myself included) choose schools like Whitewater and Eau Claire instead of Madison or Milwaukee.

/rant off haha

Knickerbocker building on east side proposes parking structure (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/95881359.html)
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel
June 9, 2010 7:00 a.m. |(2) COMMENTS

The Knickerbocker on the Lake condominiums and hotel, 1028 E. Juneau Ave., would get an adjacent 184-space parking structure, under a proposal filed with the Milwaukee Board of Zoning Appeals.

The Knickerbocker condo association, which owns the building, says in the board filing that it needs a parking structure to shore up the value of the condos. The structure would be north of Juneau Ave. and east of Astor St., where the building has a parking lot.

The lot has only one-third of the spaces needed for the 184-unit condo building, according to the filing. Most of the building's units are used by their indvidual owners, with about a dozen units rented out as hotel rooms, the filing said.

It also said the $3.8 million parking structure would likely have some units available for customers of nearby businesses, such as Osteria del Mondo, The Knick, Astor Hotel and County Clare. That's because some of the building's condo owners live outside Milwaukee for several months of the year, and some own multiple units, the filing said.

The structure would include underground and above-grade parking, and would be 19 feet above the street surface at the corner of Juneau and Astor. The height would rise to 32 feet at the parking structure's north end, which would have mechanical equipment on the roof.

The condo association wants the zoning board to waive the requirement for a 10-foot setback from Astor St. Meeting that setback standard would require the parking structure to have more spaces underground, which would raise the costs by $1 million and make the project unfeasible, the filing said.

Charles Engberg, of Engberg Anderson Architects, which is designing the structure, told me the proposal is in the "exploratory phase." The board is scheduled to review the project at its June 17 meeting."

^^ I really really hope that if this goes forward, the design meets very high standards -- a parking structure on the beautiful lower east side's residential area would have to be very sensitive to area buildings -- preferably with ground floor retail/mixed use.

Potawatomi plans $29 million Milwaukee redevelopment (UPDATE)
http://links.urbanmilwaukee.com/potawatomi-plans-29-million-milwaukee-redevelopment-
Published: June 8, 2010
By Sean Ryan

Neighborhood enthusiasm over the Forest County Potawatomi Community’s plan to develop an 11-acre Milwaukee site is mixing with skepticism over the still-unknown details.

Potawatomi planners have presented a rough outline of their development proposal to spend an estimated $28.96 million renovating seven of the 10 buildings on the Concordia Trust Property southeast of the intersection at 33rd and State streets. The proposal targets the three other buildings for demolition to make way for new structures.

The neighborhood’s reaction has been positive to the plan to bring tribal offices, private companies and other new uses to the site, said Brian Scotty, treasurer of the Historic Concordia Neighbors Inc. But residents in the neighborhood of single-family homes are concerned about such details as whether the multiyear project will increase traffic or create parking problems, he said.

“It will shift a little bit as the plan goes,” Scotty said of the proposal. “But I don’t think that’s going to be a bad thing. I think they’re interested in working with the community.”

The Potawatomi Community has owned the Concordia Trust Property, which is the former site of Concordia College, since 1990. The Indian Community School leased the site in 1990 and moved out in September 2007.

But the school’s lease officially expires July 19, at which point the Potawatomi will regain full control of the property, said Ken Walsh, Potawatomi spokesman.

The Potawatomi is collecting neighborhood input on a general redevelopment plan, he said, and is avoiding specifics until neighbors have their say about the proposal. The Potawatomi has committed to spending an estimated $2.5 million renovating a building on the property for Spotted Eagle High School, which already uses one building on the site, Walsh said. The redevelopment also focuses on restoring the five historic buildings on the property, he said.

In a plan presented to property neighbors Monday, the renovated historic buildings would be used for tribal offices, a cultural center, an indoor recreational building and offices for other businesses. The plan also includes 207 new parking spaces.

Walsh said the proposed uses for the buildings and other aspects of the plan can change.

“Nothing is set in stone,” he said. “The tribe is seeking community input and wants to submit its file later this summer and has committed to the Spotted Eagle school and the historic preservation.”

Alderman Robert Bauman, who represents the area, said his main question is: What will the Potawatomi build on vacant land created when three buildings are demolished? The Potawatomi plan shows new buildings but does not specify their sizes, designs or uses.

“That obviously raises a lot more concern,” Bauman said, “because of the uncertainty of it.”

If the Potawatomi commits to keeping new buildings in roughly the same size as the existing two- and three-story Concordia buildings, Bauman said, he probably could support the redevelopment. Details of the building design and concerns about traffic and parking will be worked out once the Potawatomi apply for city approval, he said.

“There will be issues with the details,” Bauman said.

Scotty said he is optimistic the neighborhood can work with the Potawatomi and that the project will be “not necessarily bad or good.”

“It’s just different,” he said. “It’s going to be a change, definitely.”

http://dailyreporter.com/files/2010/06/concordia.gif

PDF of the plan:

http://dailyreporter.com/files/2010/06/concordia2.pdf

Potawatomi plans $29 million Milwaukee redevelopment


Those West Side nabes stretching from Marquette U. to Miller Brewery/Harley-D. are the true sleeping giants of not-yet-reinvented old Milwaukee. Something seems to be in the works for 35th & Wisconsin too, so, perhaps, the giant is stirring.

I live a block away from the proposed Potawatomi development. I am all for it! Those buildings have been vacent for the past 3 years since Indian Community School moved away. If they don't accept this plan, I cannot imagine another use for this building coming to fruition any time in the next 20 years. It's kind of a strange location and not many businesses would be interested in moving to 33rd and State. I hope this goes through.

:) So I just drove by the site of the Moderne.... The "Groundbreaking Feb. 2001" sign has been removed. The fence has now been completed and is completely surrounding the lot (not allowing any more parking). There is a bulldozer on the lot. And, THERE IS A CONSTRUCTION TRAILER on site!!!

I think that this is a sign that their loan has been approved and things are finally moving forward!!! :banana:

You sure the construction trailer isn't just the sales building? :)

I'm sure if it was approved we'd have seen it in the news. I'm playing the skeptic on this one.

... preferably with ground floor retail/mixed use.

I live on the block, and totally agree. 24-hour Walgreens and Kinkos preferred.

You sure the construction trailer isn't just the sales building? :)

I'm sure if it was approved we'd have seen it in the news. I'm playing the skeptic on this one.

Yeah, I'd be skeptical too, but I'm 100% positive that it's a contruction trailer.

Adding more confusion to the Moderne project:

AFL-CIO says investment creates 322 Milwaukee jobs (http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2010/06/07/daily16.html)
Milwaukee Biz Journal
Tuesday, June 8, 2010, 9:46am

So far this year, the AFL-CIO Housing Investment Trust has committed more than $330 million in financing for projects nationwide, spurring work through more 2,900 union jobs, including work in Milwaukee.

The AFL-CIO Housing Investment Trust committed $41.5 million through a Ginnie Mae security toward the $48.4 million Moderne condo and apartment high-rise building at the southwest corner of West Juneau Avenue and North Old World 3rd Street. The work is expected to create 322 union jobs, according to a new report from the AFL-CIO Housing Investment Trust.

The AFL-CIO Housing Investment Trust, based in Washington, D.C., is a $3.7 billion mutual fund.

The HIT financing backs the first phase of the 30-story project, which consists of 203 market-rate rental units and 7,360 square feet of commercial and retail space. The report said the second phase will consist of 14 condo units and will be financed separately with a loan from the city of Milwaukee.

"We are proud that the HIT is putting our pension dollars into a building like the Moderne, which will bring much-needed jobs and economic development to Milwaukee," said Lyle Balistreri, president of the Milwaukee Building and Construction Trades Council, in the report.

Adding more confusion to the Moderne project:

AFL-CIO says investment creates 322 Milwaukee jobs (http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2010/06/07/daily16.html)
Milwaukee Biz Journal
Tuesday, June 8, 2010, 9:46am

So far this year, the AFL-CIO Housing Investment Trust has committed more than $330 million in financing for projects nationwide, spurring work through more 2,900 union jobs, including work in Milwaukee.

The AFL-CIO Housing Investment Trust committed $41.5 million through a Ginnie Mae security toward the $48.4 million Moderne condo and apartment high-rise building at the southwest corner of West Juneau Avenue and North Old World 3rd Street. The work is expected to create 322 union jobs, according to a new report from the AFL-CIO Housing Investment Trust.

The AFL-CIO Housing Investment Trust, based in Washington, D.C., is a $3.7 billion mutual fund.

The HIT financing backs the first phase of the 30-story project, which consists of 203 market-rate rental units and 7,360 square feet of commercial and retail space. The report said the second phase will consist of 14 condo units and will be financed separately with a loan from the city of Milwaukee.

"We are proud that the HIT is putting our pension dollars into a building like the Moderne, which will bring much-needed jobs and economic development to Milwaukee," said Lyle Balistreri, president of the Milwaukee Building and Construction Trades Council, in the report.

I'm not sure if that adds more confusion or actually brings some clarity to this whole thing. I mean it would explain, perhaps, why this project has been held up for so long-- in that the building is being funded in phases -- you can start construction on a project that has horizontally expanding phases, but i have never heard of a highrise project building in phases... i would think all "phases" would have to be fully funded before construction began.

Those West Side nabes stretching from Marquette U. to Miller Brewery/Harley-D. are the true sleeping giants of not-yet-reinvented old Milwaukee. Something seems to be in the works for 35th & Wisconsin too, so, perhaps, the giant is stirring.

I agree, that is also a very cool area.
Tons of potential and
tons of awesome old homes there.

I like that analogy,
a giant is stirring.

Yeah the Harley Davidson Plant is there.

There is gasp, some gentrification going on there.

I agree, that is also a very cool area.
Tons of potential and
tons of awesome old homes there.

I like that analogy,
a giant is stirring.

Yeah the Harley Davidson Plant is there.

There is gasp, some gentrification going on there.

I live in the area and support this development.
By the way, if anyone is interested in seeing some of the homes in the area, there is a home tour on the 19th of June (next Saturday).
Check out www.hcni.org for information.

Adding more confusion to the Moderne project:

AFL-CIO says investment creates 322 Milwaukee jobs (http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2010/06/07/daily16.html)
Milwaukee Biz Journal
Tuesday, June 8, 2010, 9:46am

So far this year, the AFL-CIO Housing Investment Trust has committed more than $330 million in financing for projects nationwide, spurring work through more 2,900 union jobs, including work in Milwaukee.

The AFL-CIO Housing Investment Trust committed $41.5 million through a Ginnie Mae security toward the $48.4 million Moderne condo and apartment high-rise building at the southwest corner of West Juneau Avenue and North Old World 3rd Street. The work is expected to create 322 union jobs, according to a new report from the AFL-CIO Housing Investment Trust.

The AFL-CIO Housing Investment Trust, based in Washington, D.C., is a $3.7 billion mutual fund.

The HIT financing backs the first phase of the 30-story project, which consists of 203 market-rate rental units and 7,360 square feet of commercial and retail space. The report said the second phase will consist of 14 condo units and will be financed separately with a loan from the city of Milwaukee.

"We are proud that the HIT is putting our pension dollars into a building like the Moderne, which will bring much-needed jobs and economic development to Milwaukee," said Lyle Balistreri, president of the Milwaukee Building and Construction Trades Council, in the report.


Hopefully they just mean financing phases and not construction phases. Is that even possible? (the financial phases that is)

looks like the UW-Milwaukee arena is going forward... the university agreed on a student fee to help pay for it. i'm torn on my opinion of this project-- while i think it would be cool to have games on campus, it might ultimately hurt downtown by taking away business from the u.s. cellular arena.
on the other hand, what i'd prefer FAR MORE than another basketball/hockey arena is a proper SOCCER STADIUM for MLS and college matches as well as international friendlies and club friendlies with champions league teams...

An MLS team would be a dream in Milwaukee. Unfortunately I don't think it will ever happen. With 19 teams already set in place, I don't think MLS will expand past 20. With all the talk of a second team in NYC as well as other cities being more viable than Milwaukee (such as St. Louis), I think were doomed to never have a professional soccer team here except the Wave.

:(

I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on that, m'kay? Milwaukee has been a front-runner for winning an MLS team in expansion talks-- Milwaukee is far more of a soccer city than St. Louis or many current MLS cities. It's just a matter of getting funding and political agreement for a stadium in Milwaukee for it to move forward. If the U.S. makes any noise in the WC, perhaps that will stir the previous investor groups to strike up talks again about getting Milwaukee an MLS team (finally).

@MilwaukeeMax As much as I'd like to see MLS come to Milwaukee as well that effort has been essentially fallen through.

interesting news coming out today about Johnnie Walker's closing its downtown store (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/96149364.html)-- while I never shopped there or really cared for the place, I find it interesting this long-time store would close right after the city announced financial incentives to retailers in this very area of Wisconsin Ave...

interesting news coming out today about Johnnie Walker's closing its downtown store (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/96149364.html)-- while I never shopped there or really cared for the place, I find it interesting this long-time store would close right after the city announced financial incentives to retailers in this very area of Wisconsin Ave...

Well, stores selling what to most people are pimp suits are probally not going to attract alot of customers. :lol:

Hate to see another business close down though, but I am not really suprised by this one.

I really hope MLS looks at Milwaukee in the future for expansion. Of course we will need investors and a stadium, but I think this would be a good market for the sport. I would love an urban stadium here, but the draw of tailgating (the same with Miller Park) would be too great.

I can see it now. Potawatomi Stadium . Natural rivalry with Chicago. Tailgating.

A nice compliment to AirTran Arena.