Well, stores selling what to most people are pimp suits are probally not going to attract alot of customers. :lol:

Hate to see another business close down though, but I am not really suprised by this one.

I didn't even know what store you guys were talking about until you said "pimp suits" :lol:

Well, stores selling what to most people are pimp suits are probally not going to attract alot of customers. :lol:

Hate to see another business close down though, but I am not really suprised by this one.

Aww cmon man. I'd rather have a store selling purple suits than another baseball cap store or check cashing place.

I really hope MLS looks at Milwaukee in the future for expansion. Of course we will need investors and a stadium, but I think this would be a good market for the sport. I would love an urban stadium here, but the draw of tailgating (the same with Miller Park) would be too great.

I can see it now. Potawatomi Stadium . Natural rivalry with Chicago. Tailgating.

A nice compliment to AirTran Arena.

Definitely. In fact I think the city
missed a real opportunity years ago when the Potowatomi offered to build the Brewers a stadium at no cost to taxpayers. While I'm not really for having a casino inside a stadium, if it meant having a pro soccer team in Milwaukee, I'd so be for it.

I live in the area and support this development.
By the way, if anyone is interested in seeing some of the homes in the area, there is a home tour on the 19th of June (next Saturday).
Check out www.hcni.org for information.

That looks cool, dont think I will be able to go
but nice to see the community spirit.
3-4 bed and breakfasts there i see.

Anything else new in that neigborhood?

El Mariachi: " I would love an urban stadium here, but the draw of tailgating (the same with Miller Park) would be too great."

Its not like having an urban ball park or soccer stadium and tailgating are mutually exclusive. There are places where people can tailgate around urban stadiums. Its great -- because you have your choice --- you can tailgate at open parking lots if you want -- or meet up with friends at dozens of downtown restaurants and bars before a game and then walk to the game. It works well in Indianapolis for Colts games.

I live in the area and support this development.
By the way, if anyone is interested in seeing some of the homes in the area, there is a home tour on the 19th of June (next Saturday).
Check out www.hcni.org for information.

GO GO GO! Concordia is a absolutely beautiful neighborhood. What I would give to see it turned around.

Hopefully they just mean financing phases and not construction phases. Is that even possible? (the financial phases that is)

No idea. Maybe it was just the wording of the article that was confusing.

Its not like having an urban ball park or soccer stadium and tailgating are mutually exclusive. There are places where people can tailgate around urban stadiums. Its great -- because you have your choice --- you can tailgate at open parking lots if you want -- or meet up with friends at dozens of downtown restaurants and bars before a game and then walk to the game. It works well in Indianapolis for Colts games.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree on this one. Small pockets of tailgating in various parking lots around downtown is not the same as spending the afternoon with tens of thousands of your closest friends in one location to eat, drink, and play games!

One of my fondest tailgating memories was an early Brewers game last year. It was an unseasonably warm and sunny day, so as we drove up to pay for parking with the windows down, we could look out across a sea of people and cars. With the drone of yelling, laughing, happy people, I could see the smoke from hundreds of grills wafting into the air. The smell was undeniably summer w/ the brats, hamburgers, or whatever the choice of food people had that day. That was heaven on earth and I just don't see that happening w/ a downtown stadium.

I don't see that same scenario happening for an MLS team though, so the point may be moot. However, I don't follow soccer so I could be wrong!

BTW not sure if anyone has clarified this not, but the trailer on the Moderne site is definitely a Findorff construction trailer.

I didn't even know what store you guys were talking about until you said "pimp suits" :lol:

Aww cmon man. I'd rather have a store selling purple suits than another baseball cap store or check cashing place.

yeah, it was unique but I am not going to personally miss it. I'll agree with you on the check cashing, but not the baseball caps. I love those stores. :lol:

Definitely. In fact I think the city
missed a real opportunity years ago when the Potowatomi offered to build the Brewers a stadium at no cost to taxpayers. While I'm not really for having a casino inside a stadium, if it meant having a pro soccer team in Milwaukee, I'd so be for it.

Yeah, they sure did. I'll take a Potawatomi themed stadium if it gets us pro soccer. Judging from the crowds out watching the games in Milwaukee, I think there would be quite a few die hards going to games. Soccer chants and culture is alot of fun---I think people would easily catch on in this city.

celebration outside Highbury after the U.S./Eng draw

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the packed bar all joining in on the Star Spangled Banner against England on Saturday

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Here is an article about the growing popularity from national perspective
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/37436096/ns/sports-soccer/

at the Nomad on Saturday

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/5543/31750431033513063200559.jpg (http://img822.imageshack.us/i/31750431033513063200559.jpg/)

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/32/31750431033523063200559.jpg (http://img820.imageshack.us/i/31750431033523063200559.jpg/)

http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/1993/31750431033538063200559.jpg (http://img815.imageshack.us/i/31750431033538063200559.jpg/)


Its not like having an urban ball park or soccer stadium and tailgating are mutually exclusive. There are places where people can tailgate around urban stadiums. Its great -- because you have your choice --- you can tailgate at open parking lots if you want -- or meet up with friends at dozens of downtown restaurants and bars before a game and then walk to the game. It works well in Indianapolis for Colts games.

yeah, I have seen it done in downtown Minneapolis and St. Louis----but it's honestly on the same. There is something great about the size of the parking lots at Miller Park and how much room you have to grill or throw the ball around. I don't think this can be replicated for a downtown area---especially what we would be looking for in an urban baseball stadium.

And to be quite honest, I don't want to see a whole bunch of empty parking lots downtown. Thats my big complaint of downtown stadiums. Parts of downtown Minneapolis are ruined because the Hump' is surrounded by ugly lots. Haven't been to a Colts game or the new stadium, but I would like to check it out if the Packers come down there sometime.

^^ Yes El Mariachi, I agree with your point about not wanting to have large parking lots downtown. Unfortunately though, that is the situation with some of the areas around Lucas Oil Stadium. There is about a two square block area just south of the stadium - part of the Stadium complex - that is where the rich suite attendees and other "high priced seating" people park. That area doesn't have as many tailgaters as most of the other large surface lot areas around the stadium. Most of the best, large tailgating lots are about three - five blocks away in several different directions - and are filled with tailgaters. Many of those are very large and are great tailgating areas (and are not small, crowded, separate lots) - but like you said El Mariachi - it would be better if there weren't huge parking lots in a downtown area. Most of the huge lots are south of the core of downtown - and on a positive note -- one large, two block wide lot was recently mentioned to become the site of a potential large mixed use (hotel, apartments and retail) development - so we may be beginning to lose some of them. Anyway -- it has its advantages and dis-advantages. Having a downtown stadium within walking distance of about 7500 hotel rooms helps land things like the Final Four and Super Bowl (and numerous huge conventions that use the Stadium's interior as a connected expansion of Indy's very large - and currently expanding again - convention center). Tailgating might not be as great in a downtown area as in an area further from downtown with a huge amount of surrounding parking lots - although it still can really be pretty good. I would have to say though that the economic impacts of a downtown stadium that attracts huge national events vs having top-of-the-line tailgating is a tradeoff that Indianapolis was willing to make. (And sorry about going on about Indy on this thread. I'll stop and let the thread re-focus on Milwaukee.)

Thanks Garfieldpark! It's good to have perspective and other points of view. I think a downtown stadium works very well for Indy. If nothing else, your description has solidfied my view that it wasn't for Milwaukee as the culture and benefits are different for both cities.

personally, i think tailgating is overrated in terms of being a priority factor of where to build a new stadium. i mean it is fun to grill out of the back of your vehicle but i think fans would certainly still come to games if a stadium (for any sport) was in the city centre and had proper access via public transit, etc. i mean people don't tailgate at Bucks games-- but when the team is playing well (as they did this last season), they are rewarded with fans filling seats. those fans also spend loads of money at nearby restaurants and pubs before and after the games. tailgating ought not be an absolute consideration for stadium location. accessibility and design are far more important. besides, those big empty parking lots where people tailgate -- what happens to those when there are no games being played? they are horrific eyesores and wastes of space and natural resources. no. no more massive parking lots for the privileged drunkards.

In looking at aerial photos of downtown Milwaukee on Google Earth -- I can see how it would be difficult to find a large enough area to build a downtown baseball stadium or soccer stadium. And if you did find enough room -- the amount of surrounding parking might be a problem. Like Coldwake said -- it probably just wasn't quite the right thing to do for Milwaukee. All cities are different and obviously what works in one place isn't going to work in others.

Of course people would still go to the games, but tailgating rules! I went to the game last Saturday with my friends and it was like a carnival out there.

We 'gated for two hours, plenty of time to have some beers and still be sober to drive home.

Unfortunately they lost again.

tailgating is fun, yes, although, in my opinion, i wouldn't say it "rules". the cost of having empty parking lots during the rest of the year just isn't worth the marginal fun that comes from tailgating, i would argue. going to a game and emptying out into a neighbourhood full of pubs and restaurants is just as much fun, if not more so, in my opinion. personally, if i attend a game, i go to watch the action on the field more than sitting in the parking lot.

In looking at aerial photos of downtown Milwaukee on Google Earth -- I can see how it would be difficult to find a large enough area to build a downtown baseball stadium or soccer stadium. And if you did find enough room -- the amount of surrounding parking might be a problem. Like Coldwake said -- it probably just wasn't quite the right thing to do for Milwaukee. All cities are different and obviously what works in one place isn't going to work in others.

this is also the problem i have with engineers. just because something is maybe not a 'perfect fit' or is more difficult to accomplish doesn't mean it isn't the better plan overall in a synergetic sense...
instead of catering always to automobiles and parking, why don't we design projects like this with higher density garages and with public transit in mind? it would make for a far more efficient flow of traffic and a much livelier overall environment. i'm sick of people complaining about parking-- how much do we spend on building huge parking structure after huge parking structure and how much value is lost in our cities' downtowns because of lost acreage and blight that is a side-effect of surface lots? we need to invest in public transit as a PRIORITY for once instead.

I think it's safe to say that Milwaukee development officials didn't foresee this use for the former Tower Automotive site: a backdrop for a major Hollywood film.

The Tower site, on the north side, and the Milwaukee Art Museum will both be featured in scenes from the upcoming movie "Transformers 3," it was announced Friday by Visit Milwaukee.

A cast and crew of about 150 will come to Milwaukee the week of July 12 to film what Visit Milwaukee calls "a pivotal scene" at the museum.

"Some of the stars from the film may be in town for the shoot," the release says.

The majority of the July shoot will happen at the museum, which will be closed for one day to accommodate the filming schedule.

The Tower Automotive site will also be used. All filming locations will be closed sets, and not open to the public.

Visit Milwaukee estimated the film will generate more than $1 million in local spending on salaries, hotels, food, fuel and miscellaneous equipment, supplies and rentals. It is expected that some local students will be hired as production assistants during the time the film is in Milwaukee.


the rest here; http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/96648929.html

In looking at aerial photos of downtown Milwaukee on Google Earth -- I can see how it would be difficult to find a large enough area to build a downtown baseball stadium or soccer stadium. And if you did find enough room -- the amount of surrounding parking might be a problem. Like Coldwake said -- it probably just wasn't quite the right thing to do for Milwaukee. All cities are different and obviously what works in one place isn't going to work in others.

I think the large Park East lot bordered by Juneau, McKinley, 4th and 6th could fit a 20,000 seat soccer specific stadium. (Plenty of surrounding parking already in place too) Also I think back when they were looking into building a new baseball stadium they looked at the area bordered by Water, Knapp and Broadway as a possible location for the new Brewers stadium.

By the way, is there a new crane errected for the 2nd phase of The North End now? Exciting!

I think the large Park East lot bordered by Juneau, McKinley, 4th and 6th could fit a 20,000 seat soccer specific stadium. (Plenty of surrounding parking already in place too) Also I think back when they were looking into building a new baseball stadium they looked at the area bordered by Water, Knapp and Broadway as a possible location for the new Brewers stadium.

By the way, is there a new crane errected for the 2nd phase of The North End now? Exciting!

That's where the new Bradley Center is going.... just being hopeful...

I'm hopeful as well, just refering to areas that COULD

Woops, pressed enter...Could fit a stadium.

^^ Yes El Mariachi, I agree with your point about not wanting to have large parking lots downtown. Unfortunately though, that is the situation with some of the areas around Lucas Oil Stadium. There is about a two square block area just south of the stadium - part of the Stadium complex - that is where the rich suite attendees and other "high priced seating" people park. That area doesn't have as many tailgaters as most of the other large surface lot areas around the stadium. Most of the best, large tailgating lots are about three - five blocks away in several different directions - and are filled with tailgaters. Many of those are very large and are great tailgating areas (and are not small, crowded, separate lots) - but like you said El Mariachi - it would be better if there weren't huge parking lots in a downtown area. Most of the huge lots are south of the core of downtown - and on a positive note -- one large, two block wide lot was recently mentioned to become the site of a potential large mixed use (hotel, apartments and retail) development - so we may be beginning to lose some of them. Anyway -- it has its advantages and dis-advantages. Having a downtown stadium within walking distance of about 7500 hotel rooms helps land things like the Final Four and Super Bowl (and numerous huge conventions that use the Stadium's interior as a connected expansion of Indy's very large - and currently expanding again - convention center). Tailgating might not be as great in a downtown area as in an area further from downtown with a huge amount of surrounding parking lots - although it still can really be pretty good. I would have to say though that the economic impacts of a downtown stadium that attracts huge national events vs having top-of-the-line tailgating is a tradeoff that Indianapolis was willing to make. (And sorry about going on about Indy on this thread. I'll stop and let the thread re-focus on Milwaukee.)

yeah, you are right about it being closer to all these hotel rooms. Lucas Oil and Indy are set up perfectly for Super Bowls, NCAA events, and maybe World Cup games in the future. Don't get me wrong, a downtown stadium would be cool. But there is already a tailgating culture here in Milwaukee in some ways. The Brewers have sucked for years and one of the big draws was tailgating with your friends and getting drunk (on the cheap) outside. Now with the Brewers being ok (at least with some star players) it's like a huge party in the Miller Park lots. I wouldn't trade that for a cramped, downtown stadium. I hate the idea of more parking lots downtown.

I think it's safe to say that Milwaukee development officials didn't foresee this use for the former Tower Automotive site: a backdrop for a major Hollywood film.

The Tower site, on the north side, and the Milwaukee Art Museum will both be featured in scenes from the upcoming movie "Transformers 3," it was announced Friday by Visit Milwaukee.

A cast and crew of about 150 will come to Milwaukee the week of July 12 to film what Visit Milwaukee calls "a pivotal scene" at the museum.

"Some of the stars from the film may be in town for the shoot," the release says.

The majority of the July shoot will happen at the museum, which will be closed for one day to accommodate the filming schedule.

The Tower Automotive site will also be used. All filming locations will be closed sets, and not open to the public.

Visit Milwaukee estimated the film will generate more than $1 million in local spending on salaries, hotels, food, fuel and miscellaneous equipment, supplies and rentals. It is expected that some local students will be hired as production assistants during the time the film is in Milwaukee.


the rest here; http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/96648929.html

you beat me to the punch. Saw this on SuperHeroHype.com. As terrible as the last one was (albeit entertainingly bad), I am excited for this. I am still holding out hope that they move some scenes for Batman 3 to Milwaukee.

El Mariachi: "Its like a huge party in the Miller Park lots. I wouldn't trade that for a cramped, downtown stadium."

I'm not sure what cramped downtown stadium you might be talking about -- but since you posted your note underneath my comments about Lucas Oil Stadium - I've got to tell you that there is definitely nothing "cramped" about Lucas Oil Stadium. It is very spacious with several large plaza areas around the main entrances. Also -- its not like by having a downtown stadium you have to make a "trade" to have that and in exchange, not get to have a "huge party". Believe me! If you've every been in downtown Indy on the morning of a Colts Sunday game (or better yet - a Saturday, Sunday or Monday night game) you'd definitely know there is no lack of a huge party.

I'm sure the tailgating outside of Miller Park is plenty great -- but as great as it is -- I'd find it difficult to believe that it compares with tailgating before NFL football games. Football - whether NFL or big time College is the real tailgating sport. Maybe since Milwaukee doesn't have the NFL or other big time football - there is extra focus on the tailgating efforts at Brewers' games - and I'm sure - being the heart of beer and brat country - that the tailgating is top of the line. I'm just saying that having a great stadium downtown definitely does not mean that there can't be a huge party and great tailgating.

Downtown tailgating obviously wouldn't work as well around a downtown stadium in a much more densely developed urban center - like Manhattan, Boston, Philadelphia, etc. Indy's got room to fit it all in though - so its all works out pretty well. In reality -- there was a clear plan put in place decades ago to develop the downtown in the manner that has occurred - to focus the convention and sports growth in an area where growth was also encouraged for shopping, hotels, restaurants and cultural and entertainment options - the SW quadrant of downtown. Eventually some of the large parking lots where people tailgate will likely get developed - hopefully. Fortunately however, Lucas Oil Stadium sits diagonally across the street from the likely location of a future major multimodal transportation hub - so as parking space is removed in the future - by that time, large amounts of people will be able to arrive for events at the stadium and convention center via mass transit.

El Mariachi: "Its like a huge party in the Miller Park lots. I wouldn't trade that for a cramped, downtown stadium."

I'm sure the tailgating outside of Miller Park is plenty great -- but as great as it is -- I'd find it difficult to believe that it compares with tailgating before NFL football games. Football - whether NFL or big time College is the real tailgating sport. Maybe since Milwaukee doesn't have the NFL or other big time football - there is extra focus on the tailgating efforts at Brewers' games - and I'm sure - being the heart of beer and brat country - that the tailgating is top of the line. I'm just saying that having a great stadium downtown definitely does not mean that there can't be a huge party and great tailgating.

Downtown tailgating obviously wouldn't work as well around a downtown stadium in a much more densely developed urban center - like Manhattan, Boston, Philadelphia, etc. Indy's got room to fit it all in though - so its all works out pretty well.

First, you'd better watch what you say. Brewers Fans are die-hard tailgaters to the core. The Brewers rank up there with the top NFL teams.

Second, we ARE talking about a dense city. That's why we're debating it.

Rental car bill threatens KRM rail funding

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/96701489.html

Maybe if the incompetent pols could just keep their fingers out of the transportation fund, there would be enough money for roads and even some rail without screwing everyone by raising taxes to kill the few remaing jobs we have left in this state.

Rental car bill threatens KRM rail funding

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/96701489.html

Maybe if the incompetent pols could just keep their fingers out of the transportation fund, there would be enough money for roads and even some rail without screwing everyone by raising taxes to kill the few remaing jobs we have left in this state.

:hahaha:

Even if they never took a dime from the transportation fund, the fund would still be in the red and empty. If you actually look at how we fund transportation projects in the state, every year we are spending far more than what we put into to the fund. You could think of the money taken from the fund as the politicians just correcting previous over contributions towards transportation projects which had been paid for by the general fund.

Honest86, the transportation fund gets more then enough revenue to take care of our state transportation needs. They need to stop raiding the fund (and having to later borrow that money to pay for the things the fund was supposed to pay for), stop taking out huge bonds for projects (as opposed to paying with cash from the fund), and take a more conservative approach to state transportation projects then there would be MORE then enough money in the fund.

For a long time the Fund had a lot more revenue then needed. Then the special interests from the construction companies, unions, etc got in there because they saw dollar signs. Now that the funds are stretched we need a lot of real projects to get done but we already have a culture in this state regarding road construction that just wastes too much money.

Raiding is just another piece of the larger picture that needs to be reformed.

tailgating is fun, yes, although, in my opinion, i wouldn't say it "rules". the cost of having empty parking lots during the rest of the year just isn't worth the marginal fun that comes from tailgating, i would argue. going to a game and emptying out into a neighbourhood full of pubs and restaurants is just as much fun, if not more so, in my opinion. personally, if i attend a game, i go to watch the action on the field more than sitting in the parking lot.

Have you never been to a Cubs game before? It's miserable. You get overcharged for the one or two beers an hour you’re likely to get because it's too crowded.

At least at MP, after a game I can go chill with friends and family for a beer or two while all the cars clear out.

First, you'd better watch what you say. Brewers Fans are die-hard tailgaters to the core. The Brewers rank up there with the top NFL teams.

Second, we ARE talking about a dense city. That's why we're debating it.

Didn't MP tailgating get rated one of the best sports experiences in the Country. Sorry, I have absolutely no proof other than "I think I read this somewhere" kind of proof :cheers:

And please don't forget about the out-of-towners who enjoy the bus rides down for the game and tailgate. The place I work has chartered a bus and tickets for the whole thing is $80. That includes game tickets, drinks, and food for the grillin out. Other employers up here do the samething as well as many bars and even churches. Without the tailgate I would wager that these type of outings wouldn't happen.

I know I don't want to sit in some stuffy bar waiting for the game. Where's the fun in that? I can sit in a bar and drink in Wausau and watch the game on tv for alot cheaper. Better yet, I can buy a 12 pack and sit at home and watch the game for alot cheaper. No, sorry, if there is no tailgate it takes half the experience away so what's the use of going?

i'm sure that Indy has good tailgating for the Colts, but there are only 8 home games (plus playoffs). The Brewers have 81 home games and there is great tailgating at each one of them, including weeknights.

Good point MilwaukeeD! I tailgate more at Brewers games then the Packers play home OR away all season! oh, and I can wear shorts while doing it. :)

Paule: That's cool. I watch most games at home too. Every once in a while I'll go to one of the downtown bars to watch -- if its a playoff game; vs. New England; etc. There are plenty of people to take in all of the options though. Most stay home and watch, some go to bars / restaurants to watch, and the lucky (or rich) 67,000 or so go to the game. A lot of people go to the bars, then go to the games - then go back to the bars. And lots tailgate before, go to the game - and then go back to the tailgate. There are over a hundred restaurants and bars in and near this core area of downtown which get large amounts of extra business on game days. Likewise with Pacers games, Indians (AAA baseball) and the WNBA Fever - who all play their home games in the arenas, stadiums and baseball fields located within about six blocks of each other in the southern half of downtown. I'm just saying it is a good thing for the downtown to have all of these sports activities going on to attract lots of people for these various events -- and to many other events as well. We don't see tailgating at our AAA Indians games - or Pacers games though - so like you said MilwaukeeD, its pretty much just the home Colts games where tailgating occurs.

It sounds like Indy has the best of both worlds, meaning, people who love to tailgate can do so while having a real tailgating experience and those who don't like to can always go and enjoy the bars and restaurants in the neighborhood.

^^ It is pretty nice --- but tailgating throughout the Summer also sounds very good. Most of the time the weather is pretty good during football season in Indy - at least the first part, from late August through mid November --- but then we get to the December games - and - while plenty of tailgating takes place then -- you definitely aren't going to be out wearing shorts. (at least most people don't). Of course - that's the prime tailgating time for the die-hards in Green Bay, huh?

Just FYI --- there is an interesting thing they're getting ready to start building in dt Indy though. There are three blocks along Georgia Street between the new main entrance to the Convention Center and Conseco Fieldhouse. They are turning those blocks into a very pedestrian friendly street - to make it more walkable and to better connect the Conv. Center to Conseco (and also to the very busy restaurant and bar streets of S. Illinois and S. Meridian Streets which are in between the two endpoints of that three block street segment). Is is being built largely due to the Super Bowl - and they will be building large "warming area" kiosk things along the corridor - so that when people are out in dt Indy partying during the Super Bowl week - they will have these areas where they can enjoy the festivities out in the streets - and can have places to try to stay warm. (They are closing several blocks of streets during the prime festivity days - so it will be kind of like a Bourbon Street feeling in the South end of downtown.)

When you go into the Convention Center - which is hosting many large Super Bowl related events like Fan City, NFL Experience, etc. -- you can also connect directly - indoors - to Lucas Oil Stadium -- so that is how things are getting set up to help handle a northern Super Bowl.

MilwaukeeMax: "I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on that, m'kay? Milwaukee has been a front-runner for winning an MLS team in expansion talks-- Milwaukee is far more of a soccer city than St. Louis or many current MLS cities. It's just a matter of getting funding and political agreement for a stadium in Milwaukee for it to move forward. If the U.S. makes any noise in the WC, perhaps that will stir the previous investor groups to strike up talks again about getting Milwaukee an MLS team (finally)."

Do you still think your thoughts are accurate based on this article from the Journal-Sentinel?

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/96852049.html

From the Journal Sentinal today.

Milwaukee sees small surge in population
City, which ranks 26th, falls three spots
By Bill Glauber and Ben Poston of the Journal Sentinel

Posted: June 22, 2010


In a country with more than 300 million people, adding 7,043 residents in a single city may not sound like a big deal.

But it is.

Milwaukee added these residents from 2000 to July 2009, according to estimates released Tuesday by the U.S. Census Bureau. Those residents boosted the city's overall population to 604,133.

But perhaps more importantly, the additional residents helped Milwaukee continue a small population surge during the first decade of the 21st century.

"It is gratifying to see the end of decades of losing population," Mayor Tom Barrett said.

"We've had a lot of development in many different parts of the city," Barrett said, in analyzing why Milwaukee has kept its population numbers up. "I think we certainly have seen a reduction in crime, and we've seen a lot of people who appreciate living in the city."

Overall, Milwaukee was the nation's 26th largest city, falling three spots from the previous year behind Seattle, Denver and Nashville, Tenn. Milwaukee was ranked 19th in the 2000 census.

"A steady population with a little bit of gain is a very good outcome for a decade like this, with all the ups and downs, foreclosures and recessions," said William H. Frey, a demographer with the Brookings Institution. "For the city to be able to keep that population with some gain is a good omen for the future."

Milwaukee's population remains far smaller than the high-water mark of 741,324 achieved in 1960. But the recent increase, however small, shows the city may have plugged population losses that stretched over decades.

The final proof for the city's population comeback will come with the completion of the 2010 census. The once-a-decade count of every person in America will provide the hard numbers that the estimates only hint at.

Asked if the hard count will match the estimates, Barrett said he didn't want to jinx it: "It's like talking about a no-hitter."

"I'm pleased with what we've seen so far," he said of the current census count and residents' rate of returning the forms by mail.

Census takers have been out in force since May, said Sharon Robinson, director of Milwaukee's Department of Administration.

"We'll fight and make sure every resident is counted and get the most complete count possible," said Robinson, who helped with efforts when the city successfully petitioned the Census Bureau to boost the city's estimated population by some 30,000 residents in 2006. The city relied on data that included construction permits and utility bills to show it deserved the increase.

Bettering counterparts
Dig a little deeper in the numbers and Milwaukee's population increase compared favorably to other cities in the Rust Belt, the country's old industrial northern tier.

Cities like Flint, Mich. (-10.8%), Cleveland (-9.7%), Buffalo, N.Y. (-7.7%) and Dayton, Ohio (-7.4%), were among the largest population losers since 2000.

"We're now in the middle of a recession now affecting most of the country and especially these places," Frey said of the Rust Belt cities. "The housing foreclosure issue, it's hard (for people) to get credit. We'd like to say this is the valley and we hope to get a little bit better.

"It's not the end of the world," Frey added of some of the declining Rust Belt cities. "It takes a lot of innovation, a lot of patience. There is lot of history in these places, and people like philanthropists and politicians who want to revive these cities. It takes waiting out the situation. Some will come back and some will have a tougher time."

From 2000 to 2009, New York added 383,195 residents and remained America's most populous city with a population of 8.4 million. Los Angeles was second at 3.8 million, and Chicago was third at 2.9 million.

Madison continued to show strong population growth with a 12.5% increase from 2000 to 2009, top among Wisconsin cities with a population of 50,000 or more. The capital also led Wisconsin in population growth, adding 26,201 people for a total of 235,626.

Elsewhere around the state, the city of Waukesha grew by 3,088 people to 68,739, an increase of 4.7% since 2000. Kenosha's population increased 7.5% to 97,856 people over the nine-year period.

La Crosse (-1.9%), Green Bay (-1.4%) and West Allis (-0.9%) have all seen their populations decline in that time period.

^^ That is impressive -- and good --- because I don't believe Milwaukee has much undeveloped land within its City limits. Some cities with large city limit boundaries - like Indianapolis, Jacksonville, maybe Lexington, KY still have good sized chunks of land that haven't been developed yet - so they still can see the type of "easy" population growth from continued "suburbanization" (ie developers building on farmland within the city limits). For Milwaukee to see growth - it means the neighborhoods are seeing stabilization and infill development. I also believe - maybe the change in average household size is starting to bottom out. Where there used to typically be five or so people per household in the 50's and 60's -- it had shrunk to three or four more recently. Maybe that drop has stabilized -- and in fact - there may be more instances where more people are living together again - sometimes in various types of extended families. (Unfortunately that's the case with the wild group of "kids" and their kids who are living across the street from me --- but that's another story....)

I'm hoping to get up to Milwaukee in early September to pick up my parents on the MegaBus (who live in suburban MSP). Instead of having them take MegaBus all the way to Indpls - I thought I could pick them up half way and enjoy the ride back south with them - instead of having them take a twelve hour bus ride - or whatever it takes. I'll have to try to get up there early and check out all of the recent developments in Milwaukee. I was last there about 8 or 9 years ago.

8 to 9 years? Well then expect to find alot of positive changes downtown. Of course I'm sure you know about alot of these changes by reading this thread and forum but there's nothing like seeing it with your own eyes.

Interesting that you think maybe the size in households has bottomed out. You may be right but I think the major reason for this population increase is due to all of the condo development that has gown up in and around downtown. This will be some of the positive changes you will see if you make it up.

Yes - I was there for a conference right after the new Midwest Airlines Center opened - so maybe about 2001 or 2002. I stayed at one of the big hotels near the Convention Center (the one with the indoor water park attached) - and, unfortunately it was pretty dead around there. I read about a lot of the new developments going on in Milw - but (and let me know if I'm wrong) not too many of them seem to be in the area around the convention center - so unfortunately, maybe that area isn't much better now. That would seem like a good area to try to improve - because that's the area a lot of people primarily see when they are attending conventions. I did try to get around and see some other areas though. I walked East down Wisconsin Avenue - and through the mall (not much going on in there though, but I did find that it gets better in other areas). The area along the River Walks was nice. I walked toward the Lake - but didn't get all the way down there. I also went the other way on Wisconsin Avenue - and saw a little of Marquette. I saw some of the big beer baron mansions, and then drove around a little and saw some of the areas with the Lakefront condos running northward - and some of the Commercial Streets in that direction. I think I was in the Third Ward too - which was pretty impressive, I thought.

We had an event at Miller Park - which was also pretty new at the time. It was pretty impressive. I also saw the domes at the one park. I guess I'd just say that was kind of under-whelming. I guess it was built in the 70's (or 60's) - and it pretty much looked like it. I don't think the Calatrava was there yet - or if it was, I didn't see it. I saw a few neighborhoods - and they did remind me of some of the central neighborhoods of Chicago. A few thriving Hispanic neighborhoods - that I believe were on the near South Side. Those were some of the things I remember. It'll be good to see what is new since then - or what other things I might find that I missed last time.

Yes - I was there for a conference right after the new Midwest Airlines Center opened - so maybe about 2001 or 2002. I stayed at one of the big hotels near the Convention Center (the one with the indoor water park attached) - and, unfortunately it was pretty dead around there. I read about a lot of the new developments going on in Milw - but (and let me know if I'm wrong) not too many of them seem to be in the area around the convention center - so unfortunately, maybe that area isn't much better now. That would seem like a good area to try to improve - because that's the area a lot of people primarily see when they are attending conventions. I did try to get around and see some other areas though. I walked East down Wisconsin Avenue - and through the mall (not much going on in there though, but I did find that it gets better in other areas). The area along the River Walks was nice. I walked toward the Lake - but didn't get all the way down there. I also went the other way on Wisconsin Avenue - and saw a little of Marquette. I saw some of the big beer baron mansions, and then drove around a little and saw some of the areas with the Lakefront condos running northward - and some of the Commercial Streets in that direction. I think I was in the Third Ward too - which was pretty impressive, I thought.

We had an event at Miller Park - which was also pretty new at the time. It was pretty impressive. I also saw the domes at the one park. I guess I'd just say that was kind of under-whelming. I guess it was built in the 70's (or 60's) - and it pretty much looked like it. I don't think the Calatrava was there yet - or if it was, I didn't see it. I saw a few neighborhoods - and they did remind me of some of the central neighborhoods of Chicago. A few thriving Hispanic neighborhoods - that I believe were on the near South Side. Those were some of the things I remember. It'll be good to see what is new since then - or what other things I might find that I missed last time.

Holy crap....just thinking about Milwaukee before the art museum gives me pains.

The area around the convention center is still pretty dead, and the Grand Avenue (downtown mall) is on life support, but there have been plenty of improvements elsewhere. The domes have been rehabbed and are pretty nice, but I wouldn't recommend going back. They're fun to go to once a decade.

Go to the Art Museum. It beautiful and it free to wander the large entry hall (galleries are $ though) and from the Art Museum is where the recharged Milwaukee radiates. There's a new Discovery World and "Aquatarium" next door and a new State Park that is fun to wander just South of that. The Third Ward/Fifth Ward has improved greatly since then and is fun to walk around. The new Riverwalk in the Third Ward is really nice. The area around North and Prospect has seen tons of new construction including the addition of Whole Foods, American Apparel, and Urban Outfitters. The Park East Freeway has been torn down since then (Geez, that feels like ages ago) and you'll find a couple of new buildings in it's place, but there are still tons of parcels to fill. The Pabst Brewery has just begun a rehab to turn it into a little self-sufficient "green" neighborhood. There's not much there yet, but it's fun to stop by and see a great example of urban bioswales (gardens placed along the streets to collect and filter out rainwater) But the one place you MUST go is Kilbourn/Reservoir Park. It's a new park along North Ave (just West of Humboldt) that has an incredible view of the city and the lake. Just under that view is the new Beerline B neighborhood (cool to see) and the new Marsupial Bridge (which hangs underneath the Holton St Viaduct connecting the Beerline B to Brady Street.) While you're there make sure you go to Lakefront Brewery.

Sorry for the long post. I was going to PM GarfieldPark, but as soon as I started typing I realized just how much has changed in a decade and I thought it would be nice to remind you all of that too.

Water School Project Tests University's Budget (http://dailyreporter.com/blog/2010/06/11/water-school-project-tests-university-budget/)
The Daily Reporter

http://dailyreporter.com/files/2010/06/4_freshwater-exterior.jpg

http://dailyreporter.com/files/2010/06/4_freshwater-interior.jpg

The University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee might not have enough money to renovate and expand the Great Lakes Research Facility.

The state approved a $50 million budget for the university to build a 125,000-square-foot addition to the research building in Milwaukee. The addition would be the first half of a new UW-Milwaukee School of Freshwater Sciences.

But the building and addition are large structures, and university planners envision a large central commons area to blend the old and new buildings, said Christopher Gluesing, assistant director of the UW-Milwaukee office of university architects and planning.

“It needs to kind of have a heart to it,” he said, “that holds it all together.”

Planners want to simultaneously build the addition and renovate the area of the old building that will connect to the central commons area, Gluesing said. That would ensure all four walls of the commons match.

...

Update on the Gold's Gym project downtown:

Renderings
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/7839/96605740.jpg

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/1697/10698043.jpg


The city will be spending $3,053,992 for the purposes of renovating 480 linear feet of Riverwalk. Construction begins this year.

Legistar File # 091567

AJKNEE: Thanks for all of the good information. I'll hang on to your recommendations of things to see and try to take them all in when I get up there. It does sound like a lot of new things have happened up there since I was last in town. Sounds good.

There's not really another spot for this story... so I'll put it here. I'm surprised it hasn't come up already. from JSonline:


http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/97153569.html


Few clues emerge after falling concrete kills 1, injures 2 on lakefront

The person who was killed by a concrete slab that fell from a parking garage underneath O'Donnell Park on Thursday is a 15-year-old boy, sources confirmed Friday.

Two other people who were injured are expected to survive, police said.

The identities of the victims have not yet been released. Investigators have placed a non-disclosure order on the case with the Milwaukee County medical examiner's office, preventing the office from releasing reports about the death.

Milwaukee County Sheriff David A. Clarke Jr. and other county and city officials have scheduled a news conference about the incident at 11 a.m. Friday.

The 30-foot concrete slab fell about 10 to 12 feet from the facing of the garage above the exit leading to Lincoln Memorial Drive, directly across from the Milwaukee Art Museum.

The garage will remain closed while engineers and law enforcement officers investigate the incident, a sheriff's spokeswoman said Friday.

People who had parked in the garage Thursday - the opening day of Summerfest - were not allowed to retrieve their vehicles until about 9 p.m., roughly five hours after the incident occurred.

People whose vehicles are still in the garage today should go to the structure's entrance on E. Michigan St., where sheriff's deputies will allow them to retrieve their vehicles, sheriff's Capt. Aisha Barkow said.

Lincoln Memorial Drive, which was closed Thursday evening, has been re-opened.

Milwaukee County opened O'Donnell Park in the early 1990s. It covers more than 7 acres and is built atop a 1,250-space parking garage.

When it was built, problems dogged the project, including cracks in the structure because the weight of the park was more than the garage underneath could bear.

The first cracks were discovered in May 1991, prompting removal of tons of dirt that had been piled atop the park for landscaping. Crews also repaired and strengthened the steel-and-concrete skeleton of the structure.

Five months after discovering the cracks, the county fired Jordan Miller, the architect working on the $30 million project.

Repairs of structural problems at the garage cost the county $3.4 million.

I never knew about the problems with this structure was built. It's too early to jump the gun and start laying blame... but this is such a trajedy for the young man's family. I wish the best for them and I hope they get down to the bottom of this before anyone else gets hurts.

That is a disgusting parking garage.
Its has obvious evidence that it houses homeless people
(nasty mattresses and junk)
and smells of urine. Its damn confusing
(had hard time getting out and in).
Poorly designed to say the least
and looks like now its unstable.

Would be great if a building and parking went there.
Heck, just knock it down and a surface lot is better
than that nightmare (ok maybe im exagerrating)
But a rebuild would be great.

The community of Riverwest has seen a bit of a resurgence lately and one business is doing more than just serving its customers. Centro Cafe has only been open for one year but has already seen a lot of success. Owner Peggy Karpfinger says that the restaurant gives people in the neighborhood a place to go and shows others that Riverwest is a great place to be. With the boom in business owners, Pat and Peggy Karpfinger now have plans to add on.

http://www.fox6now.com/news/witi-100619-riverwest-restaurant,0,2566494.story

Oh I wish I was in Milwaukee this weekend! But I can't be :ohno:

The world's largest music festival remains the biggest event of the weekend. Headliners for the weekend include Tom Petty, ZZ Top, Public Enemy and Thievery Corporation.

Rock on Milrockee!

My first choice would be Tom Petty!

Marcus Center revives plan for parking structure redevelopment (http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2010/06/28/focus1.html)
Biz Journal

Officials at the Marcus Center for the Performing Arts in downtown Milwaukee are reintroducing a proposed mixed-use redevelopment of the center’s parking garage in hopes that developers will again see the project’s potential in an improving economy.

Previous proposal (Ovation Plaza)
http://www.gpchicago.com/users/FolderData/%7B15D465FD-73BF-47E7-B8AA-91D5BED81CD2%7D/OVPweb_1.jpg

Marcus Center revives plan for parking structure redevelopment (http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2010/06/28/focus1.html)
Biz Journal

Officials at the Marcus Center for the Performing Arts in downtown Milwaukee are reintroducing a proposed mixed-use redevelopment of the center’s parking garage in hopes that developers will again see the project’s potential in an improving economy.

Previous proposal (Ovation Plaza)
http://www.gpchicago.com/users/FolderData/%7B15D465FD-73BF-47E7-B8AA-91D5BED81CD2%7D/OVPweb_1.jpg
It's needed, Build it already!!

Love it!!

This is what makes the whole Great Lakes region so interesting and cool, shipwrecks.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37927284/?gt1=43001

And read this from the headline, "Area has about 500 dive-worthy ships still to be found".

The article about the Marcus Center project mentions they've been working with MSOE on this project. If you want to see some of the student conceptual designs I covered it for an UrbanMilwaukee.com article. link (http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2010/03/23/msoe-students-present-design-ideas-for-the-marcus-center-garage-site/)

The article about the Marcus Center project mentions they've been working with MSOE on this project. If you want to see some of the student conceptual designs I covered it for an UrbanMilwaukee.com article. link (http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2010/03/23/msoe-students-present-design-ideas-for-the-marcus-center-garage-site/)

I'm a snob, I know already, but good lord please let architects develop this project, not engineers...

Haha, don't worry CG II, I'm a civil engineer, and I agree. I think that the MSOE teams created some really good concepts regarding locations and arrangements of different pieces of the potential development, but, you are correct, the specific design rendered above is much more inspiring.

@CGII Certainly each design needs work, but I think each has some ideas or parts that could be incorporated.

I'm a snob, I know already, but good lord please let architects develop this project, not engineers...

haha you're not a snob... you're just echoing what a lot of us feel as well. engineers are good at implementing designs (as long as they don't argue about impracticalities, etc), but they can't actually design anything worth a cardboard box. the excessive amount of space they use for infrastructure, for instance, is maddening. architects should dream and design and engineers should help them implement those designs.

Agreed Max... no sobbery whatsoever in CGII's remarks. While I'm sure the MSOE students worked hard on these projects, they prove that engineers are simply not architects. Their designs would prove downright deadly if ever realized. Face it, many architects don't understand how to create a truly alive space, so these engineering students shouldn't feel bad.

Regarding the project, I'm not going to hold my breath on this one. Sure would be nice to see that block come to life though...

@PANTHERfan I agree this project isn't going to happen tomorrow but the Marcus Center does seemed to be committed to making this project happen in the long run.

It also probably would not be that iteration either. But lets hope for something here that fills in that black hole on an otherwise lively street.

Ha just dreaming of Park East and Water St with this development, the tower with the Marcus theatre and the Moderne just gives me the chills.

...In a good way.

Developer plans to build student housing complex near Marquette

By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/97332869.html

June 28, 2010 2:50 p.m. | A Milwaukee investment group plans to build a $21 million student housing complex next to Marquette University's campus.

The eight-story building, with rooms for up to 450 students, would be at the southeast corner of W. Wisconsin Ave. and N. 20th St., according to documents filed with the city Board of Zoning Appeals.

The project would need variances from the board to allow fewer parking spaces than would otherwise be required by zoning ordinances, as well as a smaller lot than mandated. The board is to consider that variance request at its July 8 meeting.

The proposal is from Wisconsin Avenue Properties I LLC, led by James Kleinfeldt. He wasn't immediately available for comment Monday afternoon.

More MacArthur Square panels targeted
Decision to remove 18 decorative slabs came after fatal accident at O'Donnell Park
By Larry Sandler of the Journal Sentinel
Posted: June 28, 2010 10:42 p.m. |(1) COMMENTS

After the fatal accident at O'Donnell Park, Milwaukee public works officials decided Monday to remove 18 large, heavy panels from the outer walls of the MacArthur Square parking garage.

None of those deteriorating panels stands above the N. Lovell St. entrance or exit to MacArthur Square. The 23 panels that hung over the entrance and exit were removed after small pieces of concrete fell off the front of the garage a year and a half ago.

The city Department of Public Works started removing MacArthur Square's decorative panels months before an even larger and heavier slab of concrete fell off the county-owned O'Donnell Park garage Thursday, killing a teenager and injuring two other people.

But public works officials stepped up the process after the tragedy and now are reviewing whether to remove all of the square's 109 panels that will remain after this week, said Preston Cole, the department's director of operations, and Venu Gupta, buildings and fleet superintendent.

Like O'Donnell Park at the lakefront, MacArthur Square consists of a large public plaza atop a parking garage. It has long been plagued by maintenance problems. City workers have repaired all safety hazards, Gupta said.

But a long-term fix has been delayed while public officials ponder how to reshape and reinvigorate the often-deserted open space on top. The new downtown master plan, to be unveiled Wednesday, will offer ideas for further discussion, including extending W. Kilbourn Ave. west to meet the plaza at Lovell St., city planning manager Vanessa Koster said.

Immediately after the O'Donnell Park accident, Mayor Tom Barrett ordered a safety inspection of all city-owned parking garages, including MacArthur Square, Cole said. Structural engineers conducted a visual inspection of the five downtown ramps on Friday, then followed up with a detailed inspection on Saturday, he said.

They found nothing that would pose a safety threat to pedestrians or vehicles, Cole said. Barrett's staff declined to make the mayor available for an interview, instead referring questions to Cole.

2,500-pound slabs

The MacArthur Square panels each measure about 7 feet high by 4 1/2 feet wide by 4 inches thick, and weigh roughly 2,500 pounds, Gupta said. Like the 27,000-pound slab that fell off O'Donnell Park, they are decorative, with no structural function, Gupta and Cole said.

Early in 2009, city structures manager Sharon McGuire noticed a couple small pieces of concrete, each measuring about 1 inch by 3 inches, in one of the MacArthur Square driveways, Cole said. While those pieces were much smaller than the 20-pound chunk that dropped from the nearby county Courthouse in March, nothing should have been falling off, Cole said.

After engineers examined the panels, they decided the safest course was to remove them, Gupta said. City workers took down the nine panels over the entrance in late February 2009, then removed the 14 panels over the exit in late January, he said.

Taking down 18 more panels this week is also "merely precautionary," Cole said. "Our staff takes a very aggressive view of MacArthur Square (maintenance), because it is an aging building."

Built in the 1960s, MacArthur Square increasingly has shown its age, often in the form of roof leaks. In May 2008, the leaks led the city to turn off the square's fountain and stop pumping water into its reflecting pool. In July of that year, city inspectors shut down a crumbling tunnel from the garage to the county-owned Safety Building.

Since then, the city has repaired the tunnel and replaced an expansion joint in the roof, but the water to the fountain and reflecting pool is still turned off, Gupta said.

The Public Works Department also has been examining the structure section by section and fixing problems as they are found, Gupta said. From 2005 through 2009, the city spent $3.2 million on MacArthur Square, ranging from $194,192 in 2008 to $1.3 million last year, he said.

But to fix all the leaks would require replacing the roof membrane, which would involve removing and replacing all the landscaping, utilities and other features on top, Gupta said. In 2008, city officials estimated that cost at $18 million to $20 million. Bob Greenstreet, then city planner, argued the city shouldn't spend that much money without taking a broader view of the square's future.

Future of square

Several ideas have been floated for the square and nearby areas, but none has taken root.

Now city planners will try to reboot that debate by including a MacArthur Square remake as a catalytic project in the latest downtown master plan, Koster said.

The plan offers two options, both of which would extend Kilbourn Ave. one block west from N. 6th St.

In one option, the tunnels from Kilbourn Ave. to I-43 and from I-94 would remain, but Kilbourn Ave. would be extended above them. It would intersect with Lovell St., which would be elevated to be level with the square.

A second option would move the freeway tunnels, allowing Kilbourn to rise more gradually to meet Lovell St., which would remain at its current level.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/97362074.html

---

On a side note, when did Bob Greenstreet stop being City Planner? I must have missed that...

^Since he took over the Congress for New Urbanism I believe.

Scott Walker should be ashamed of his decisions to cut SO MUCH funding to county owned parks during his tenure. I believe his cuts and negligence of these properties makes him indirectly responsible for this horrible accident. He should resign.

Scott Walker should be ashamed of his decisions to cut SO MUCH funding to county owned parks during his tenure. I believe his cuts and negligence of these properties makes him indirectly responsible for this horrible accident. He should resign.

Better watch what you ask for, because you might get your wish in November. I can only imagine how happy you'll be then.

Does any know what going on with the two cranes at pleasant and water (i think). I saw them set up, but did not see much activity over there the other day.

^^I saw those today as well for the first time. I have a theory, just a guess. KBS was the contractor for both the new MU Law School and the North End. The two cranes of the same size and shape that were recently removed from from the Law School site might have been moved there. Hopefully because the next phase of the North End is supposed to start soon? I think Barry Mandel said sometime in 2010.

On a side note, when did Bob Greenstreet stop being City Planner? I must have missed that...

2008.

^Since he took over the Congress for New Urbanism I believe.

No, that was former Mayor John Norquist.

No, that was former Mayor John Norquist.

Ah duh.

I don't know how catalytic i would call any of these projects, but this is what came up. At best they will help improve the city, but none will not open the floodgates of development in Milwaukee.

City crafts a new plan for downtown
City identifies 'catalytic' projects for development
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel

Posted: June 30, 2010 |(24) Comments


Click to enlarge
Land and Space
Journal Sentinel business reporter Tom Daykin blogs about commercial real estate and development




City Hall Square tax district ends, property taxes go to city, schools
Aldermen delay Junior Achievement project on tax concerns (17)
Bucyrus to get $2 million in property tax breaks from Oak Creek plan (18)
View All Blog Posts
When city officials in 1999 last wrote a downtown Milwaukee master plan, the wish list of key proposals included a RiverWalk expansion, a new Public Market in the Historic Third Ward, and a remodeled Amtrak station - all three now a reality.

The city on Wednesday is unveiling its latest downtown plan proposal. The list of envisioned "catalytic" projects includes some that would build on past successes, along with one idea that has seen zero progress since being included in the 1999 plan.

The projects are designed to help accomplish the new plan's goals, which include creating better walking connections between downtown and the lakefront, and developing smaller forms of downtown housing, such as townhomes. The projects list was created by Department of City Development employees, working with suggestions from people who live or work downtown.

The plan will require Common Council approval. Proposed projects include:

• Haymarket Square, a mixed-use neighborhood of start-up businesses, along with townhomes and other smaller housing units that could double as work places. The Haymarket area is just north of the Park East corridor, and already includes Park East Enterprise Lofts, a live-work apartment development at 1407 N. King Drive.

The plan includes creating a public square at N. 4th and W. Vliet streets.

• Pére Marquette Square, a mixed-use development area focused on the riverfront Pére Marquette Park. The area includes the block just west of the park occupied by the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel and other nearby properties, including the Journal Sentinel parking lot at W. State and N. 4th streets.

"This location is a strategic site and ideal for a concentration of commercial, entertainment and residential uses," the plan says.

• The redevelopment of MacArthur Square, near the Courthouse.

That project was included in the 1999 plan. But nothing has occurred on the isolated 8-acre site, and the parking structure underneath is deteriorating. The new plan suggests bringing more activity to MacArthur Square by expanding Milwaukee Area Technical College into the square, and by extending a stretch of W. Kilbourn Ave. from its current end, at N. 6th St., to N. 7th St.

• Station Plaza, including an expanded Amtrak/Intermodal Station, would link a planned downtown streetcar service with the station's current Amtrak service and intercity bus lines.

An expansion of the station, 433 W. St. Paul Ave., could include the Milwaukee County Downtown Transit Center, now at 909 E. Michigan St., where county buses operate. New commercial development would be created near the station.

• Broadway Connection, a retail- or leisure-anchored mixed-use complex at E. Michigan St. and N. Broadway, linking downtown and the Third Ward.

Along with improvements under I-794, the project would create "retail continuity" along Broadway, the plan says. The complex would feed off the success of the Third Ward's shops, restaurants and taverns.

• Improving pedestrian access to the lakefront by reconfiguring traffic lanes at N. Lincoln Memorial Drive and E. Michigan St.

Those changes would set the stage for new development on the west side of Lincoln Memorial Drive, and additional lakefront activities on the street's east side, the plan said.

• Wisconsin Ave. targeted improvements to improve the street's retail and residential developments.

The avenue has a number of vacant storefronts. The Common Council recently approved creation of a $100,000 fund to provide grants and forgivable loans to retailers and property owners for new stores on Wisconsin Ave.

• The proposed downtown streetcar service.

Local officials are seeking federal permission to start preliminary engineering on a $95.8 million streetcar line that would run through downtown. Supporters say it would be more efficient than buses for short trips downtown and help stimulate development. Opponents say it would be an expensive project that takes riders from the county bus system.

The proposed downtown plan will be available for public viewing from 4 to 7 p.m. Wednesday at City Hall, Room 301-B. A public hearing before the Plan Commission is set for Aug. 23.

http://www.jsonline.com/business/97449094.html

^^I saw those today as well for the first time. I have a theory, just a guess. KBS was the contractor for both the new MU Law School and the North End. The two cranes of the same size and shape that were recently removed from from the Law School site might have been moved there. Hopefully because the next phase of the North End is supposed to start soon? I think Barry Mandel said sometime in 2010.

Those have been up for about a week or week and a half now. I can only assume they are preparing for the 2nd phase of the North End.

Also, these new plans for downtown all sound like exactly what needs to be done, let's hope like the last plan that a good portion of them get realized.

That's all well and good, but maybe the city could focus on projects that are already "underway" like the Park East Corridor.

@AcctStdntUWM

Those cranes are simply there for storage. They were at the new dorm project and Mandel is allowing KBS to keep the cranes there for the time being. And North End Phase Two hopefully will break ground soon. Even if they broke ground today, those cranes wouldn't be needed for months.

City crafts a new plan for downtown
City identifies 'catalytic' projects for development
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel
http://www.jsonline.com/business/97449094.html

http://media.journalinteractive.com/images/PLAN30G-2.jpg

Scott Walker should be ashamed of his decisions to cut SO MUCH funding to county owned parks during his tenure. I believe his cuts and negligence of these properties makes him indirectly responsible for this horrible accident. He should resign.

Macarthur square is a city owned property. Stop being such a numbnut.

As far as O'Donnell park we don't know what the cause was yet so it's all speculation. We do know though that this structure has had problems from the very beginning.

Please have some respect and put your partisan crap aside for at least this one event while they figure out what happened.

Macarthur square is a city owned property. Stop being such a numbnut.

As far as O'Donnell park we don't know what the cause was yet so it's all speculation. We do know though that this structure has had problems from the very beginning.

Please have some respect and put your partisan crap aside for at least this one event while they figure out what happened.

Agreed... any reasonable person knows Mr. Walker should've resigned long before this tragedy. ;)

http://media.journalinteractive.com/images/PLAN30G-2.jpg

Does anybody know where I can find an online copy of the new draft update of the Downtown Plan? It'd be nice to see, but 4100 miles is an awful long distance to travel to do so...

Does anybody know where I can find an online copy of the new draft update of the Downtown Plan? It'd be nice to see, but 4100 miles is an awful long distance to travel to do so...

It should eventually show up here:
http://www.mkedcd.org/planning/plans/downtown/index.html

I don't know when. Other posters may.

So far the Haymarket Square plan is well underway and will probably be the first of the 10 areas to be completed on this list. I really don't see much change in the MacArthur Square or the Downtown Transit Center areas other than cosmetic or restoration of those spots, not much at all for new development. Station Plaza probably will depend on the US Postal Service and their plans.

The interesting one is the Pere Marquette Square plan. The only way anything will happen with that plan is if at least 3 or more parties get involved. That would be the City of Milwaukee, Journal Communications and developers for the many proposed office towers planned east of the Milwaukee River or an existing vacant office space. Journal Communications only uses a small portion of the property since the printing press moved to West Milwaukee many years ago. If an office tower developer or a building management company along with the city can convince Journal Communications to move all of its Downtown operations into a new or existing office tower, then the block bordered by 3rd, State, 4th and Kilbourn will connect Old World 3rd Street, Pere Marquette Park, RiverWalk, Wisconsin Center District and the Frontier Airlines Center into one central tourism area. This plan is the most interesting of the 10 catalyic projects. Hope it becomes a reality.

Macarthur square is a city owned property. Stop being such a numbnut.

As far as O'Donnell park we don't know what the cause was yet so it's all speculation. We do know though that this structure has had problems from the very beginning.

Please have some respect and put your partisan crap aside for at least this one event while they figure out what happened.

relax, coldwake, i was only talking about o'donnell park, not macarthur square. macarthur square hasn't killed anybody.
also, i'm just playing the game the anti-barrett conservatives played when the zoo interchange needed emergency repairs (blaming him for something not even in his district and claiming the HSR money should go to fix highways.. ridiculous).

So far the Haymarket Square plan is well underway and will probably be the first of the 10 areas to be completed on this list. I really don't see much change in the MacArthur Square or the Downtown Transit Center areas other than cosmetic or restoration of those spots, not much at all for new development. Station Plaza probably will depend on the US Postal Service and their plans.

The interesting one is the Pere Marquette Square plan. The only way anything will happen with that plan is if at least 3 or more parties get involved. That would be the City of Milwaukee, Journal Communications and developers for the many proposed office towers planned east of the Milwaukee River or an existing vacant office space. Journal Communications only uses a small portion of the property since the printing press moved to West Milwaukee many years ago. If an office tower developer or a building management company along with the city can convince Journal Communications to move all of its Downtown operations into a new or existing office tower, then the block bordered by 3rd, State, 4th and Kilbourn will connect Old World 3rd Street, Pere Marquette Park, RiverWalk, Wisconsin Center District and the Frontier Airlines Center into one central tourism area. This plan is the most interesting of the 10 catalyic projects. Hope it becomes a reality.

it is remarkable to me that one of the ugliest, most inaccessible buildings in all of downtown is the Journal Communications headquarters. it's such an eyesore --it looks more like a prison than a a newspaper/media center-- and yet they're supposed to be the 'voice' of Milwaukee. awful.

i heard on RealGM (oddly from jeramey from Urban Milwaukee there) that a new arena is apart of this plan. With all these moves the Bucks made today, the Bucks are going to be deep/good these next few years and hopefully that translates into an arena.

^^ And a championship!

http://www.cbs58.com/index.php?aid=12969

http://www.wauwatosanow.com/news/97494324.html

I dont know if Ive seen this alterra, how long has this been there?
Been awhile since ive driven through tosa.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&rlz=1R2SKPB_enUS349&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=wauwatosa,+wi+alterra&fb=1&gl=us&hq=alterra&hnear=Wauwatosa,+WI&ei=jzsuTNfoNYTGlQfmztThCg&sa=X&oi=local_group&ct=image&resnum=4&ved=0CC8QtgMwAw

the more I think about it, the less I like the idea of a new arena for the Bucks. I know you'll claim up and down that it's about making more revenue for the team but that just makes it even more wrong, in my opinion, as the types of money-making crap they'd like to include have nothing to do with the game being played on the court. new restaurants? new entertainment corners and fan zones and fun zones and waste-your-time-on-other-crap zones... what ever happened to people going to sporting events to actually WATCH THE SPORTING EVENT?!
no, i don't want another arena. we have a perfectly good basketball arena. what we need INSTEAD is an MLS-specific soccer stadium. period.

I'm having a difficult time conceiving how the Kilbourn Ave extension would work in the new downtown master plan... I'm assuming the freeway tunnels would somehow be left in-tact under two newly constructed developments while the new extension of Kilbourn would somehow run through them and then run at an elevated grade upward toward 7th, 8th and 9th streets?

also, in regards to the new downtown plan, it appears that, in the Lakefront Gateway section, that Lincoln Memorial Drive south of Michigan would be straightened out and connect up to Harbor Drive instead of basically just turning into 7-94/Lake Pkwy/the Hoan Bridge. I like this idea, if I'm reading the plans correctly, as it would prohibit all that fast traffic exiting the interstate system from flying down onto the pedestrian-heavy Lincoln Memorial Drive (especially during Summerfest and the other Maier Park fests)

Does anybody know where I can find an online copy of the new draft update of the Downtown Plan? It'd be nice to see, but 4100 miles is an awful long distance to travel to do so...

This seems to be the best source right now, including concept drawings:

http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2010/07/02/city-announces-new-downtown-plan/

It should eventually show up here:
http://www.mkedcd.org/planning/plans/downtown/index.html

I don't know when. Other posters may.

Today.

The presentation/display boards from the recent open house are up on the DCD website now.

The final documents won't come until later in the planning process.

^^ And a championship!

It's possible I suppose if Jennings has a big year, Bogut stays healthy, and Salmons is consistent. The Bucks could win the division if LeBron doesn't go to Chicago or Cleveland. :)

the more I think about it, the less I like the idea of a new arena for the Bucks. I know you'll claim up and down that it's about making more revenue for the team but that just makes it even more wrong, in my opinion, as the types of money-making crap they'd like to include have nothing to do with the game being played on the court. new restaurants? new entertainment corners and fan zones and fun zones and waste-your-time-on-other-crap zones... what ever happened to people going to sporting events to actually WATCH THE SPORTING EVENT?!
no, i don't want another arena. we have a perfectly good basketball arena. what we need INSTEAD is an MLS-specific soccer stadium. period.

Thats what basketball has turned into. I don't love it either, but to keep a team here---we need an arena with all the bell and whistles to maximize income. Thats what the Brewers have been doing at Miller Park and it seems to be working out well for them. These things don't bother me unless they take away from the game itself and that really isn't the case yet.

A downtown arena with all these fan zones, entertainment corners, and resturants could be great for downtown Milwaukee. How it was descibed (in the plan) was for a possible new arena to be more friendly at street level---which is a far cry from the monolithic Bradley Center. If they were to build a new arena in the Park East somewhere---it could be very exciting with all the developments in that area (movie theater, The Brewery, Moderne). I really hope this all come about sometime in the near future. The Bradley Center is getting a new scoreboard this year, in case you guys didn't hear.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3817/scoreboard100610640.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/i/scoreboard100610640.jpg/)


http://www.nba.com/bucks/release/scoreboard_facts_100610.html

It's possible I suppose if Jennings has a big year, Bogut stays healthy, and Salmons is consistent. The Bucks could win the division if LeBron doesn't go to Chicago or Cleveland. :)
Yeah, no tellin where he could go just yet but Milwaukee I think is a good team again and if the chemistry is right, watch out!!

By the way, Salmons just resigned!
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/97689444.html

Downloaded the new 3D version of Google Earth. Wow, check out these images. The entire city is in 3D and includes all new buildings that have recently been built. You can do a fly over, view from the lake, add sun light in different sun setting stages, etc. Too kool!

Now to keep with the development theme, look at all of the open space Milwaukee has for future development and in-fill. Lets get a few of these projects off the ground.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/Milwaukee.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/Milwaukee02.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/Milwaukee03.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/Milwaukee04.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/Milwaukee05.jpg

http://www.wauwatosanow.com/news/97494324.html

I dont know if Ive seen this alterra, how long has this been there?
Been awhile since ive driven through tosa.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&rlz=1R2SKPB_enUS349&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=wauwatosa,+wi+alterra&fb=1&gl=us&hq=alterra&hnear=Wauwatosa,+WI&ei=jzsuTNfoNYTGlQfmztThCg&sa=X&oi=local_group&ct=image&resnum=4&ved=0CC8QtgMwAw


It's been there for three-four years. It opened shortly after I moved back to the area in 2006.

Hey guys and gals, I was out last night watching the Big Bang (Is it even called that anymore? Was it ever?) Anywho, I watched the downtown fireworks last night, decided to take some pictures, and I thoguht I would share a few of them with you guys. I am by no means an expert photographer, and my skills don't come close to some of the pictures I have seen others on this site post before, but I thought I would throw 'em out here for you guys anyway, so I hope you enjoy!

This was my first attempt at fireworks too >_<
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4102/4761282658_778f3509f2.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4100/4761280092_3e4039f250.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4135/4760646511_b40bb22bb1.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4119/4761283552_6d9f68026a.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4142/4760649845_e492e94e83.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4119/4760650917_90d7e09c62.jpg

Great shots, especially for a first try. Thanks for sharing. I love the view from that pedestrian bridge. I take that bridge every day for my commute. As for the "Big Bang" question, I find that many locals are confused about that. These fireworks are called the US Bank Fireworks. The Big Bang is the name fireworks on the opening night of Summerfest. The Big Bang was on Thursday, June 24th this year.

And for the last I don't know how many years, Milwaukee's lakefront fireworks shows have been making Chicago's look downright small-townish.

:cheers1:

Mike

And for the last I don't know how many years, Milwaukee's lakefront fireworks shows have been making Chicago's look downright small-townish.

:cheers1:

Mike

Seriously, the US Bank Fireworks go on forever. We were taking bets on whether or not said batch of fireworks was the grand finale. Everybody lost.

Great, great show.

Awesomeness!

When one has a baby and is working, it's very hard to make it out to see fireworks any more. Maybe next year..

Awesomeness!

When one has a baby and is working, it's very hard to make it out to see fireworks any more. Maybe next year..


Hey urb, i can tell you from experience that the milwaukee fireworks are awesome. I went about three years ago. The chicago fireworks are too congested, they split them into three this year, but i still skipped them cuz im sure they were pretty crowded.
The lot for montrose was full at 10am.

Yeah the fireworks at milwaukee are the perfect size for a big fireworks show.
Very exciting. And milwaukees lakefront is so awesome in the summer.

I will check out the milwaukee fireworks again maybe next year.

Kinnickinnic River ripe for rebirth

Today, at long last, the damage done in the 1960s is on verge of being undone. The city and the Milwaukee Metropolitan Sewerage District have begun to buy homes in the Kinnickinnic floodplain as a prelude to re-creating the green landscape of my childhood.

In case you're keeping score, this will be the fourth transformation of the Kinnickinnic River since the early 1900s. Urbanization soiled it, Charles Whitnall saved it, city engineers denatured it, and now we're returning to Whitnall's vision. If the results resemble recent work on Lincoln and Underwood Creeks, the effort and the expense will be well worth it. After decades of degradation, the river of my past will flow clean and clear into Milwaukee's future.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/97700809.html

Tower Tech to supply wind towers to Spain's Gamesa

Tower Tech will supply wind towers to the Spanish wind turbine provider Gamesa Technology Corp. for wind farms that will be installed in the United States in the second half of the year.

Shares of Tower Tech's parent company, Broadwind Energy Inc., rose 16% after the announcement Tuesday.

The value of the contract wasn't disclosed. Naperville, Ill.-based Broadwind did not identify which of its three tower factories, located in Manitowoc, Texas and South Dakota, would gain work as a result of the deal.

the rest here; http://www.jsonline.com/business/97951144.html

Lawmakers want to divert rail money to Hoan repairs

Two lawmakers representing southeast Milwaukee County started a push Wednesday to divert money allocated to a high-speed rail line and spend it on replacing the roadway atop the 2.5-mile Hoan Bridge.

"It is important that we fix the existing infrastructure before we build a new train line," said State Rep. Christine Sinicki (D-Milwaukee). "This is about priorities."

the rest here; http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/97950779.html

Mr. Governor,

Where did the money go that was annually appropriated for Hoan Bridge repairs? Did you re-distribute that money elsewhere? Did the deterioration of this bridge happen overnight and come as a big surprise to you? Funny how this state always seems to steal money from one project to pay for another that should have been funded through normal budgeted capital expense accounts. Fixing this bridge is our biggest concern right now even over a train to Madison that few can afford to ride.

Lets not play stupid and think for one minute that any money taken from the Transportation Fund would have gone to the Hoan. Between rebuilding the rest of the freeways in the Milwaukee area and the DOT's constant 'need' to widen and expand roads to nowhere around this state, there still wouldn't be a dime for maintenance or a redecking of the bridge.

You can fantasize all day about it if you want, but thinking otherwise is wishful thinking at best... more like political grandstanding.

If they set up any transportation lock box, I want to see it on the revenue that each county pulls in for the gas tax, stay in that county.

@Jesse

That is sort of a step in the right direction, it doesn't take into account a truck filling up in Kenosha and routinely driving to Milwaukee though (or vice versa). Big brother concerns not-withstanding, the best solution would be some kind of on-board monitoring system that could track what roads were used to ensure that even non-highways received their fair share of support.

The huge amounts of FEDERAL dollars going into high speed rail right now - are being provided because the benefits of the system are of a FEDERAL nature. The high speed rail route is a part of the Chicago - Milwaukee - Madison - MSP route. And at Chicago, the high speed rail will connect to St. Louis and Kansas City ... and Detroit, and Toledo and Cleveland -- and eventually (hopefully) Indianapolis and Cincinnati and Louisville -- and Columbus and Dayton and Grand Rapids and several other cities. Its critical that the high speed rail money is spent where it is supposed to - on the beginnings of the MIDWEST high speed rail network. It had better not be spent on a 2.5 mile piece of roadway in Milwaukee. Please help make sure that the State Senator up there is aware of that -- and that she better keep her mouth shut about trying to use federal high speed rail monies on a local bridge maintenance project. I'll come up there and smack her around myself if I have to! :)

If they set up any transportation lock box, I want to see it on the revenue that each county pulls in for the gas tax, stay in that county.

Based on this logic, northern Wisconsin Counties would have no roads! Some may think that is a good thing keeping those nasty polluting cars out. I on the other hand disagree.

The huge amounts of FEDERAL dollars going into high speed rail right now - are being provided because the benefits of the system are of a FEDERAL nature. The high speed rail route is a part of the Chicago - Milwaukee - Madison - MSP route. And at Chicago, the high speed rail will connect to St. Louis and Kansas City ... and Detroit, and Toledo and Cleveland -- and eventually (hopefully) Indianapolis and Cincinnati and Louisville -- and Columbus and Dayton and Grand Rapids and several other cities. Its critical that the high speed rail money is spent where it is supposed to - on the beginnings of the MIDWEST high speed rail network. It had better not be spent on a 2.5 mile piece of roadway in Milwaukee. Please help make sure that the State Senator up there is aware of that -- and that she better keep her mouth shut about trying to use federal high speed rail monies on a local bridge maintenance project. I'll come up there and smack her around myself if I have to! :)

Agreed completely. How many politician's pockets are the wisconsin roadbuilders in?

RE: Hoan

It still is in US interstate system, right? I would think the feds carry a lot of responsibilty to pay for its upkeep. Regarding the bigger point of whether the funds for HSR should be used to pay for Hoan repairs, I think the average person in Milwaukee would pick the Hoan. The Hoan is a much more valuable asset to the Milwaukee area than an unbuilt train, that no one really plans on using, or is even excited about. Yeah, its part of a network, yadda yadda yadda, no one cares. Fact is more people will use the Hoan than the train, and it is more valuable, so I think it not unreasonable for the pols to make this request.

The Hoan bridge is TOO expensive to simply repair...Then think about 20, 30 years down the road when not only the bridge deck is in need of replacement, but also the supports are at the end of there life. Thats when we are looking at 1 billion dollars or more for a COMPLETE overhaul. The Hoan needs to be turned into an at grade connection, ESPECIALLY since there is another freeway 5 to 10 miles to the west.

Now for the potential extension of this road to the south, WHY? I-94 is being expanded for added capacity so why build ANOTHER large road(4-lanes). Either one or the other. How about alternatives now? KRM.

Or, place a toll on the northbound lanes southside of bridge. If you want to take the bridge, you have to pay...otherwise sacrifice a few minutes and go west to I-94 and use that, OR take the side streets.

Long time lurker here, but I feel I need to chime in.

RE: Hoan

It still is in US interstate system, right? I would think the feds carry a lot of responsibilty to pay for its upkeep. Regarding the bigger point of whether the funds for HSR should be used to pay for Hoan repairs, I think the average person in Milwaukee would pick the Hoan. The Hoan is a much more valuable asset to the Milwaukee area than an unbuilt train, that no one really plans on using, or is even excited about. Yeah, its part of a network, yadda yadda yadda, no one cares. Fact is more people will use the Hoan than the train, and it is more valuable, so I think it not unreasonable for the pols to make this request.

I think it's the opposite. Everyone I have talked to thinks the Hoan was a great waste of money when it was built and no longer they no longer see it as a Milwaukee icon. The amount it would cost to repair it, just isn't worth it. I understand it's still more useful now then an unbuilt high speed rail line, but in the long run hsr is a much better investment.

If we can't afford to fix the Hoan now, how will we in the future? I guess we can always dip in to another project...

Repairing the Hoan now is just wasting money when it will still need to be replaced 10-12 years later. For the cost or rebuilding, we could replace the entire bridge with an at grade roadway which is better integrated with the street network, build an elevated lift bridge that is high enough that it will only have to be raised at most once a day for boat traffic, build bike lanes, and repave most of the roads in the neighborhood.

For everyone who says that is to much of an inconvenience I invite you to raise the millions of extra dollars necessary to pay the difference in solutions since you think a single minute of your time is so valuable.

Oh and FYI, before you start ranting about how important this bridge is, there are several main arterial streets in Milwaukee which handle much more traffic daily than the Hoan bridge, which are more vital to the region, and which are in worse need of repair. (and the cost to fix them is millions less!)

Bottom line -- for Wisconsin State Senators Christine Sinicki and Jeff Plale: Your fund shifting idea just isn't going to happen. You can't take 100% federally funded high speed rail funds and shift them to a highway bridge project. Funds for those two types of projects come from two different "pots" of federal money. Like Chris Klein (executive assistant to Wisconsin Transportation Secretary Frank Busalacchi) said in the JS article -"The money comes with the requirement that it be spent for the rail line." [The State Senator's proposal is] "unfeasible, because it would require the approval of Congress, President Obama and state lawmakers." He also said "This is not how it works. The passenger rail money is one of the cornerstones of the Obama stimulus effort. If the money were diverted from the rail line to the Hoan Bridge, the state would then have to come up with additional funds to pay for the rail line - leaving the state with no net gain. I don't think they thought this through."

I'm sure the assistant to the secretary of Transportation for the State of Wisconsin knows how federal transportation dollars work. Again --- trying to take some of these federal HSR funds and spending them on the Hoan Bridge just isn't going to happen so Ms. Sinicki should just stop wasting her time pursuing this poorly considered idea.

If Wisconsin doesn't want to spend the money on building a high speed rail corridor - the money would more likely be sent to some other designated high speed rail route - like in California, Florida, Texas, North Carolina, Ohio, etc. The Hoan Bridge is not going to be able to get any diverted HSR money.

Based on this logic, northern Wisconsin Counties would have no roads! Some may think that is a good thing keeping those nasty polluting cars out. I on the other hand disagree.

Why would they have no roads? Do they somehow not fill up their cars or trucks?

Why would they have no roads? Do they somehow not fill up their cars or trucks?

The numbers of cars/trucks purchasing gas or creating taxes in the less populated or used counties compared to the larger cities and counties would be so low it would not pay for the needed roads.

The numbers of cars/trucks purchasing gas or creating taxes in the less populated or used counties compared to the larger cities and counties would be so low it would not pay for the needed roads.

Well, assuming that's true, those counties need to find other sources of revenue to pay for their roads. If those counties actually benefit from spending more on roads, they'll find a way to do it. Enough of the entitlement mindset, every place has benefits and drawbacks, asking people to pay for their own roads won't make northern WI blow away.

No one values anything if it's given away free.

Well, assuming that's true, those counties need to find other sources of revenue to pay for their roads. If those counties actually benefit from spending more on roads, they'll find a way to do it. Enough of the entitlement mindset, every place has benefits and drawbacks, asking people to pay for their own roads won't make northern WI blow away.

No one values anything if it's given away free.

With that mind set... Milwaukee should give all the money it's getting from the State for MPS because taxes are diverted from all across the state to the larger cities, especially Milwaukee, to pay for the school system.

There's a lot of back and forth benefits and costs for urban vs rural areas. You can't just seperate it out that easy.

With that mind set... Milwaukee should give all the money it's getting from the State for MPS because taxes are diverted from all across the state to the larger cities, especially Milwaukee, to pay for the school system.

There's a lot of back and forth benefits and costs for urban vs rural areas. You can't just seperate it out that easy.

Well said Coldwake.... And I agree. Typically I am against handouts and most government programs, but this sharing within the state does make sense.

With that mind set... Milwaukee should give all the money it's getting from the State for MPS because taxes are diverted from all across the state to the larger cities, especially Milwaukee, to pay for the school system.

There's a lot of back and forth benefits and costs for urban vs rural areas. You can't just seperate it out that easy.

Hey, not only can the state take their money, they can take their school system. MPS is a ward of the state and is dysfunctional because the state views it as Milwaukee's problem.

So Milwaukee gets stuck with an unaccountable mess that the state has no interest in fixing.

As for the relation to roads, it's a non-sequitur. MPS doesn't make the rest of the state's schools any worse, but wild road spending around the state is siphoning Milwaukee area maintenance money.

Why are the busiest freeways in the state in miserable condition compared to other freeways around WI? I always hear grumbling about how so much commerce for the rest of the state moves through Milwaukee's freeways, so we must expand. Well, first and foremost, we need to maintain what we've got and ensure that the most used portion of WI's roads runs like a well-oiled machine.

Hey, not only can the state take their money, they can take their school system. MPS is a ward of the state and is dysfunctional because the state views it as Milwaukee's problem.

So Milwaukee gets stuck with an unaccountable mess that the state has no interest in fixing.

As for the relation to roads, it's a non-sequitur. MPS doesn't make the rest of the state's schools any worse, but wild road spending around the state is siphoning Milwaukee area maintenance money.

Why are the busiest freeways in the state in miserable condition compared to other freeways around WI? I always hear grumbling about how so much commerce for the rest of the state moves through Milwaukee's freeways, so we must expand. Well, first and foremost, we need to maintain what we've got and ensure that the most used portion of WI's roads runs like a well-oiled machine.
Well, for MANY years, and even to an extent now, the Milwaukee metro area (especially the City of Milwaukee) did not want a large amount of highway work in their area, so the state money was spent where it was more welcomed. Remember that metro Milwaukee had a truly massive and complex freeway system in the plans and only a small part of it was ultimately built. Outstate, the highway system is very extensive and in overall excellent condition - with several major projects either under construction or well along in the planning.

As for MPS, there is also this immovable object called MTEA that is standing in the way of any meaningful reforms, something that deep down inside, we elsewhere in the state would like to see improved. It is truly sad to see what has happened to a government school system that was once so good that 60 or so years ago, people were actively annexing their properties to the City of Milwaukee solely in order to have access to those schools.

:ohno:

Mike

If Wisconsin doesn't want to spend the money on building a high speed rail corridor - the money would more likely be sent to some other designated high speed rail route - like in California, Florida, Texas, North Carolina, Ohio, etc. The Hoan Bridge is not going to be able to get any diverted HSR money.
Florida would love to have your HSR money. :D

Well, for MANY years, and even to an extent now, the Milwaukee metro area (especially the City of Milwaukee) did not want a large amount of highway work in their area, so the state money was spent where it was more welcomed. Remember that metro Milwaukee had a truly massive and complex freeway system in the plans and only a small part of it was ultimately built. Outstate, the highway system is very extensive and in overall excellent condition - with several major projects either under construction or well along in the planning.

Just because people in the Milwaukee area realize it's no solution to congestion to just build more lanes, doesn't mean the area deserves piss poor maintenance funding from WIS DOT. Are you telling me that there are two options, overbuild freeways and get maintenance money or oppose expansions and allow freeways to turn to gravel?

As for MPS, there is also this immovable object called MTEA that is standing in the way of any meaningful reforms, something that deep down inside, we elsewhere in the state would like to see improved. It is truly sad to see what has happened to a government school system that was once so good that 60 or so years ago, people were actively annexing their properties to the City of Milwaukee solely in order to have access to those schools.

:ohno:

Mike

Yes, there is MTEA and there are also legislators from outstate that don't see it as their business to get involved in MPS one way or the other. They don't want to risk changing anything because they're afraid of failure and getting blamed for it. They love the position of railing against MTEA and how bad MPS is, but because it's not in their backyard, exempt themselves from responsibility.

I don't call it fiscal responsibility to keep wasting state tax money (towards MPS & prisons) for a failing MPS.

Well, for MANY years, and even to an extent now, the Milwaukee metro area (especially the City of Milwaukee) did not want a large amount of highway work in their area, so the state money was spent where it was more welcomed. Remember that metro Milwaukee had a truly massive and complex freeway system in the plans and only a small part of it was ultimately built. Outstate, the highway system is very extensive and in overall excellent condition - with several major projects either under construction or well along in the planning.
Mike

Thus the reward for Milwaukeeans having saved state taxpayers tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in the maintenance of a SMALLER freeway system than originally envisioned is to be underfunded for what was actually built?
How selfish and greedy of them.

so does this (http://www.fta.dot.gov/news/news_events_11823.html) mean that the feds passed up Milwaukee in the latest phase of funding for the Milwaukee Connector? Does anyone know if Milwaukee applied for this grant program? It would seem that the Milwaukee Connector, the KRM and even Walker's BRT would have qualified for these grants...

so does this (http://www.fta.dot.gov/news/news_events_11823.html) mean that the feds passed up Milwaukee in the latest phase of funding for the Milwaukee Connector? Does anyone know if Milwaukee applied for this grant program? It would seem that the Milwaukee Connector, the KRM and even Walker's BRT would have qualified for these grants...

Yes, Milwaukee missed the opportunity to win these grants. As someone who's been following the Cincinnati Streetcar progress very closely, it kills me how disinterested the people of Milwaukee are with regards to the streetcar.

The citizens of Cincy have worked tirelessly to get their streetcar funded. They've slaved over a route, they've run freelance campaigns to defeat a streetcar ballot initiative, they've written constant letters to the local papers, and they've corrected conservative talkshow hosts on their streetcar misinformation continuously for the past two years. The status of the streetcar has been front page news (Positive and negative) dozens of times. Cincinnati was crushed when they weren't awarded the TIGER 2 grants earlier this year, and in direct response the city approved $64 million in bonds and made zoning code changes to it's streetcar route to reduce parking requirements for new construction. They did this to get LaHood's attention...and it worked.

Now I look at my hometown of Milwaukee. Most people don't even know we have a streetcar proposal. Nobody even knows where it will run. The city hasn't finalized a route that makes much sense. And through all of the Urban Circulator grant programs, I've only seen a couple of stories about the streetcar and even in those stories the streetcar is the last thing to be listed behind the train to Madison and the KRM.

Cincinnati's even been issuing a number of PSAs that are available in many formats to see. Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rz3FHssTSs

And if you go to the City of Cincinnati website, you'll see a video of one of the City Councilwomen going to Portland and Germany to study streetcars for Cincinnati: http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/noncms/projects/streetcar/

My point with this is that Milwaukee has some good competition from other cities when it comes to receiving federal dollars. We really need to step up the public awareness on these projects if we hope to see them built.

so does this (http://www.fta.dot.gov/news/news_events_11823.html) mean that the feds passed up Milwaukee in the latest phase of funding for the Milwaukee Connector?

Yes.

Does anyone know if Milwaukee applied for this grant program?

Yes. Applied and rejected.

Nobody even knows where it will run. The city hasn't finalized a route that makes much sense.

Other than figuring out the exact layout of the turn-arounds at the ends of the line, the route is pretty much settled. And it makes perfect sense too, as it passes by portions of Downtown with very high job densities, residential densities, and high-traffic commercial corridors...not to mention a number of parking garages, hotels, and other important institutions and attractions.

http://www.milwaukeeconnector.com/images/map.jpg

That is a map of the Locally Preferred Alternative that was approved several weeks ago. The next step is preliminary engineering.

The solid lines represent the initial line--which would use the existing Federal money earmarked, plus a yet-to-be-determined local source.

The dashed lines represent proposed extensions that the City was anticipating could be built by using the Urban Circulator Grant Program money (had its application won), plus a yet-to-be-determined local source. The city had hoped to win a circulator grant so that preliminary engineering and eventuial construction for the two extensions could be done at the same time as the initial route segment...but that will haver to wait, for now.

It's too bad the extensions wouldn't be built at the same time because that extention that goes north up prospect and turns around at Royall would really boost the ridership I think.

Other than figuring out the exact layout of the turn-arounds at the ends of the line, the route is pretty much settled. And it makes perfect sense too, as it passes by portions of Downtown with very high job densities, residential densities, and high-traffic commercial corridors...not to mention a number of parking garages, hotels, and other important institutions and attractions.

http://www.milwaukeeconnector.com/images/map.jpg

That is a map of the Locally Preferred Alternative that was approved several weeks ago. The next step is preliminary engineering.

The solid lines represent the initial line--which would use the existing Federal money earmarked, plus a yet-to-be-determined local source.

The dashed lines represent proposed extensions that the City was anticipating could be built by using the Urban Circulator Grant Program money (had its application won), plus a yet-to-be-determined local source. The city had hoped to win a circulator grant so that preliminary engineering and eventuial construction for the two extensions could be done at the same time as the initial route segment...but that will haver to wait, for now.

I was making two points. The first point was that a route has been settled for some time and yet the general public has no clue what that route is. The second point is that the route makes little sense. Streetcars are economic engines. They do wonders when they're run through blighted areas. Nearly all of the modern streetcar lines being planned are running through sparsely populated areas, and the completed ones have seen tons of new housing added. (Even Kenosha) Here the route is being run through some already really densely populated areas and it's not going past nearly as many vacant parcels as it needs to. I seriously doubt this line will have as much of a bang for its buck than in other cities.

The last problem I have with this route is that it's not CLEARLY identified as being part of a future network. Yes, there are extensions drawn on that map but then what? If we want to be serious about rail in this city we need to designate where the light rail and BRT routes will cross through downtown
and incorporate this first streetcar line into that system. (Where are Walker's BRT lines on this map?)

My point is that a lot of this streetcar planning is happening behind closed doors, unlike many places. These federal dollars are partly a political stunt as well. How can Milwaukee leaders expect a handout when it would go barely noticed by the people? If we want to get this thing built it's got to be more public and people need to know that their neighborhoods are part of the plan.


For the network, I'm going to give another Cincinnati example:
http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Re-Envision-Cincinnati.jpg

This map has been posted all over the city. I've seen it at public markets and on vacant buildings. Currently, the only two routes on this map that are being planned are the streetcar from the river to the zoo (but phase one only goes to Findlay Market), and the Chicago Cleveland HSR (called the 3C Line of the Ohio Hub Network). So really all of these lines are fantasy, but they help the general public walking by envision how their house will fit into the network. People who might normally say, "well why is the city wasting money on something that wont benefit my neighborhood" might now say "Well, I guess they have to start somewhere. Hopefully they can hurry up so they can build that extension out to my house." It makes a big difference for people.


Milwaukee has a lot of plans. The KRM, the HSR, Walker's BRT plan, and the streetcar. I have yet to see a map with all of these plans on it and how they'd work together.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3470/3936167068_d045d612f3_b.jpg

I created this map a while ago and send it to the mayor hoping to get the whole "part of a network" idea across. Apparently nothing changed. I've also tried creating a new map of Milwaukee with this current streetcar path as part of a network (because I'd really hate to stall progress by having them change the route at this point) but it just doesn't make much sense.

It's a branding issue that Milwaukee is failing miserably at.

.

This current street car system will have have very low ridership to begin with. As far as i can tell the only purpose of the initial system is to ferry the few people coming through the intermodal station to downtown, a trip that can already be done for a couple bucks by taxi cab (Just like the Madison HSR line, lets use tax payer dollars to create an inferior product that competes with the privately owned business that actually pays taxes, not consumes them). Most people also get picked up from the station by friends or family anyway. The distance the route travels in downtown are so short that they all can be walked in the amount of time it takes to figure out the route and wait for the next street car. The last thing i would add is that this is basically the route the summer free trolley is currently taking (the real street car is actually significantly less extensive than the free trolley). Every time i see that free street car go by, it is 90% empty, so i can only guess how little use a pay for street car that covers less area will get.

Trolley route
http://www.milwaukeedowntown.com/categories/7-parkingtransportation/documents/25-milwaukee-trolley-loop


I know the cry will be that street car route will be expanded, when in fifty years when we get another political fluke situation like we have now where debt is transferred from the private and state sectors to the federal pot, and where it rains federal dollars with no regards to the long term financial destruction it will bring. People will also talk about how people love rail, and because it is a rail system, it will magically entice people to people to ride it vs the the boring ride a dressed up city bus can offer.

I consider this streetcar system to be so cliche Milwaukee, in the sense that we have civic leaders with a grand vision of the city yet with no concept of the practical realities of where the city is and what it needs, and no idea how to fund the monster they create in the long term. Milwaukee is no longer a top 25 US city. Our leaders to need to acknowledge that fact, and stop spending money and dreaming about being like Chicago, NY, or even the European cities they all so fancy. Milwaukee has much more pressing current problems that need to be fixed now. Milwaukee needs a new a school system, needs to keep its current businesses in town and happy, and create a place for new businesses to come (streetcars are at the bottom of the list of their needs, Milwaukee roads do the job for now), and focus on keeping crime down. There's obviousoly much more. We have large public spaces that truely do embarrass the city that our dear leaders could fix to really improve the image of the city. Before we need a street car, we could use money to fix Mcarthur square, the hoan bridge, the crumbling war memorial, the disgraceful grand avenue mall, do something with cathdral square, build some green space in the park east corridor, dress up the lake front, build new bike paths, and on and on and on. I know this is a rail nerd forum, but i wish people would get over their rail dreams, and focus on actually making the city better for everyone who lives here rather than creating a tiny rail system that only benefits a very small number of people. Get your rail fix when you visit the big cities, and fix the one you actually live in.

ajknee, the things you are looking for, such as maps of transit integration and the larger streetcar network are readily available at www.milwaukeeconnector.com

As for Walker's BRT lines...what BRT lines? They aren't happening. Purely political posturing.

Granted, Cincinnati has done a great job promoting their system (even though they are still behind Milwaukee in funding and engineering)...but the promotion has been done largely by citizen groups...so if you are upset with Milwaukee's level of promotion, you can definitely step in. Or you can just keep saying that Milwaukee's system sucks and contribute towards it never even happening.

Yes.



Yes. Applied and rejected.




I thought so. this is ridiculous? why these other cities? why NOT Milwaukee's proposal? with all due respect to Cincinnati, Milwaukee's been fighting for/needing a streetcar/LRT/rail of any kind for over 20 years! this is just impossibly frustrating to deal with when other cities of equal or smaller size get awarded federal money for their projects, especially when some of these places already HAVE transit-- why should they get more money before we get ANY money? ugh... so, what is it? does the federal government legitimately just DETEST Milwaukee for some reason? is this some latent historical resentment for the city with German roots? i'm starting to think there must be a reason Milwaukee consistently gets screwed by the feds.

This current street car system will have have very low ridership to begin with. As far as i can tell the only purpose of the initial system is to ferry the few people coming through the intermodal station to downtown, a trip that can already be done for a couple bucks by taxi cab (Just like the Madison HSR line, lets use tax payer dollars to create an inferior product that competes with the privately owned business that actually pays taxes, not consumes them). Most people also get picked up from the station by friends or family anyway. The distance the route travels in downtown are so short that they all can be walked in the amount of time it takes to figure out the route and wait for the next street car. The last thing i would add is that this is basically the route the summer free trolley is currently taking (the real street car is actually significantly less extensive than the free trolley). Every time i see that free street car go by, it is 90% empty, so i can only guess how little use a pay for street car that covers less area will get.


just... stop.... talking.... why do you and others seem to think you have any insight into transportation use statistics? do you work for the department of city development? do you work for the department of transportation? do you really think the planning commissions would recommend these forms of transit if they thought nobody would use them?
stop posturing such idiotic disinformation.

the "few people" coming through the intermodal station? are you serious??
you and every other area suburban conservative can pretend you actually use the amtrak station, let alone go downtown, but the reality is known by those of us who actually USE the intermodal station and the MCTS system in the city on a regular basis: the trains between chicago and milwaukee are quite often full.. (i've been on board more than once when some passengers had to stand or split up their groups into different cars altogether because the trains were so full)... this is a profitable route for Amtrak (one of the few in the nation) and it is certainly used by people who then connect downtown via automobile, however it is also used by people (like myself) who live in/near downtown and would most certainly use the milwaukee connector to get to the east side and beyond if that option were available. the most populous neighbourhood, the most densely populated neighbourhood in the state is the downtown/east side. you don't live there. too bad for you. but it's time we serve this area with the public transit it deserves and needs.

@MilwaukeeMax I too was disappointed that Milwaukee didn't get the Urban Circulator Grant, but remember Milwaukee already has funding and the project is still moving along. This just means that we didn't get funding for the dotted line sections on the map. If anything I'm guessing Milwaukee didn't get these additional funds because again we already have funding and are not yet in the ground. If the city can get in the ground soon, I believe we'll have a better chance of additional funds in the future.

PS Just the other day I rode my bike to the Intermodal left it there over night and took the Amtrak to Chicago!:) And yes it was pretty busy.

The second point is that the route makes little sense. Streetcars are economic engines. They do wonders when they're run through blighted areas. Nearly all of the modern streetcar lines being planned are running through sparsely populated areas, and the completed ones have seen tons of new housing added. (Even Kenosha) Here the route is being run through some already really densely populated areas and it's not going past nearly as many vacant parcels as it needs to. I seriously doubt this line will have as much of a bang for its buck than in other cities.

If you look at streetcar lines that have been built in other cities you'll notice that they run through a mix of areas--corridors that are already built-up (thereby guaranteeing at least some built-in ridership from the get-go) in addition to underdeveloped and/or blighted areas (which get redeveloped after the line is built, and in some cases, get built up as the line is being constructed). They don't just go through one type of area or the other.

Milwaukee's proposed line does the same. There are a number of vacant plots of land (empty weed patches and grass lots) and underutilized properties (several surface parking lots, and even some very low-density, marginal type buildings) all along the proposed line. Let us not forget there are several standing buildings along the line where opportunities exist for adaptive reuse.

So yes, Milwaukee's line does serve potential redevelopment sites in addition to several key already-established areas.

The last problem I have with this route is that it's not CLEARLY identified as being part of a future network. Yes, there are extensions drawn on that map but then what? If we want to be serious about rail in this city we need to designate where the light rail and BRT routes will cross through downtown and incorporate this first streetcar line into that system. (Where are Walker's BRT lines on this map?)

There are no light rail lines planned for Milwaukee, so they do not show up on the map.

Walker's BRT aren't shown on the map because Walker keeps changing which BRT (not really even true BRT, just fancy looking express buses) line he wants to start first. Is it the one that goes from UWM, through Downtown, to the County Grounds? Is it one that runs down Fond du Lac Avenue, through Downtown, and out National Avenue? Is it one that goes from Bayshore Town Center to the Northwestern Mutual Campus in Franklin via 27th Street? Will it be just one of those? Or maybe two of them? Or maybe one that hasn't been mentioned yet? Nobody knows because he's not cooperating, or even telling anything about it (which suggests that he possibly might not even really care about it).

The Intermodal Station is highlighted on the map, and that of course is where connections can be made with intercity bus, intercity rail (Amtrak/future HSR) and proposed commuter rail (future KRM). Those aren't shown on this particular map (yes, it would be very helpful to show them on there, though), but they have showed up on other maps, and its been mentioned in nearly every article written about the subject, plus the Downtown Plan--both the 1999 and 2010 versions.

My point is that a lot of this streetcar planning is happening behind closed doors, unlike many places. These federal dollars are partly a political stunt as well. How can Milwaukee leaders expect a handout when it would go barely noticed by the people? If we want to get this thing built it's got to be more public and people need to know that their neighborhoods are part of the plan.

If the public doesn't know about Milwaukee's streetcar proposal, then it's because the public must be blind and deaf. It's been written about in ALL of the newspapers on multiple occasions over the past decade or so, with maps, too. It's been on all the local TV news programs. There have been several public open houses houses over the years, and planners have even met with interested groups, businesses, and organizations by appointment. Press releases from the Mayor or Department of City Development. And there are websites where you can read all about it and send in comments. So there have been lots of ways to learn about the proposal and opportunities to provide input.

I thought so. this is ridiculous? why these other cities? why NOT Milwaukee's proposal? with all due respect to Cincinnati, Milwaukee's been fighting for/needing a streetcar/LRT/rail of any kind for over 20 years! this is just impossibly frustrating to deal with when other cities of equal or smaller size get awarded federal money for their projects, especially when some of these places already HAVE transit-- why should they get more money before we get ANY money? ugh... so, what is it? does the federal government legitimately just DETEST Milwaukee for some reason? is this some latent historical resentment for the city with German roots? i'm starting to think there must be a reason Milwaukee consistently gets screwed by the feds.

Grants from the Urban Circulator Program were sought after by many cities, and there was only so much money to go around. The Feds awarded grants to cities that put up some of their own municipal funding toward their proposed projects. Milwaukee has not done that, so Milwaukee did not get anything. And that is not an unreasonable way to go about awarding these grants.

Also counting against us...the fact that Milwaukee already has Federal money to be put toward an urban circulator.

This current street car system will have have very low ridership to begin with. As far as i can tell the only purpose of the initial system is to ferry the few people coming through the intermodal station to downtown

You're right.

A trolley that connects some of the most dense neighborhoods in the Midwest to one of the busiest Amtrak routes in the nation is definitely going to be empty.

Originally Posted by MilwaukeeMax:
"I thought so. this is ridiculous? why these other cities? why NOT Milwaukee's proposal? with all due respect to Cincinnati, Milwaukee's been fighting for/needing a streetcar/LRT/rail of any kind for over 20 years! this is just impossibly frustrating to deal with when other cities of equal or smaller size get awarded federal money for their projects, especially when some of these places already HAVE transit-- why should they get more money before we get ANY money? ugh... so, what is it? does the federal government legitimately just DETEST Milwaukee for some reason? is this some latent historical resentment for the city with German roots? i'm starting to think there must be a reason Milwaukee consistently gets screwed by the feds."


Cincinnati probably isn't the best city to pick on in complaining that it shouldn't have been selected to receive federal transit funds prior to Milwaukee. Reasons - in response to your criticisms:

1) Cincinnati has been working on getting its street car line in place for at least 20 years as well.

2) Cincinnati is not of equal size or smaller than Milwaukee. It is a larger region - with over 2 million people in its Metro area.

3) Cincinnati does not already have any type of rapid rail transit (I know you were talking about other cities that already have rapid rail transit in place -- buy anyway...)

4) Cincinnati is also a city with very strong German roots -- so it is not a prejudice against cities with strong German heritage.

Originally Posted by MilwaukeeMax:
Milwaukee's been fighting for/needing a streetcar/LRT/rail of any kind for over 20 years! this is just impossibly frustrating to deal with when other cities of equal or smaller size get awarded federal money for their projects, especially when some of these places already HAVE transit-- why should they get more money before we get ANY money? i'm starting to think there must be a reason Milwaukee consistently gets screwed by the feds."

I think you answered your own question. We have had democratic Mayors of Milwaukee forever, two democratic senators, and a governor who is a democrat. If they cannot influence the mostly democratic congress for this project, perhaps the project has little merit and cannot be defended even by the big spending US government. This is where the money is coming from and ultimately from all of our pockets. It is not a sustainable project and may bankrupt further a city who does not have money to fund current and higher priority projects.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to ride around on a trolly in Milwaukee. That would be so kool. I also would love to own a Bently. I just cannot justify the cost of a Bently. But sure would love to have it if someone else pays for it and the long-term expensive upkeep that comes with an expensive automobile.

It's not a trolley.

It's not a trolley.

Sorry, street car?

I have an idea, lets scrap the whole idea of a street car and have dedicated buses take the exact same route and timeline. We can even paint them blue. Only change is make the buses free to all passengers all the time. I bet that will be a fraction of the street car cost long term than the outlay of hundreds of millions of dollars, ongoing maintenance, and tearing up and disrupting all the city streets for years to come. Take the money saved and repair all the bridges and infrastructure Milwaukee has.

Cincinnati probably isn't the best city to pick on in complaining that it shouldn't have been selected to receive federal transit funds prior to Milwaukee. Reasons - in response to your criticisms:

1) Cincinnati has been working on getting its street car line in place for at least 20 years as well.

2) Cincinnati is not of equal size or smaller than Milwaukee. It is a larger region - with over 2 million people in its Metro area.

3) Cincinnati does not already have any type of rapid rail transit (I know you were talking about other cities that already have rapid rail transit in place -- buy anyway...)

4) Cincinnati is also a city with very strong German roots -- so it is not a prejudice against cities with strong German heritage.

GarfieldPark, I wasn't at all picking on Cincinnati -- I think they ought to have rail system as well, but Milwaukee has been fighting just as hard (and definitely longer) to get light rail or a tram system in place... I think Cincy's maybe been more vocal as of late because Milwaukee advocates seem to be frustrated that our pleas for funding fall on deaf ears.

ALSO, if you're going to bring up facts and split hairs here, I'll have you know that Milwaukee IS a LARGER CITY than Cincinnati, both in population numbers (Milwaukee: 604,477, Cincinnati: 352,612) AND in population density (Milwaukee has 6,296.3/sq mi while Cincy only has 4,273.5/sq mi). Sure the metro figures are different but that is the least important figure here, as we are discussing a transit connector for these respective cities' downtowns, not their metro regions! If we were discussing commuter rail or some other issue in regards to the suburbs, the slight edge of metro population Cincy has over MKE might make a difference but, as it is, this is a discussion of urban connector systems, something a city of Milwaukee's population density is FAR OVERDUE for!

Uh oh let's not start the "my city is bigger than your city" argument. Keep it civil.

Boatnurd,

You are extremely shortsighted when it comes to rail transportation. Its not even worth going over the benefits a streetcar system would bring to Milwaukee. Some people are just anti-rail just because right wing radio tells them to be so.

My biggest wish is that Milwaukee was more like
portland and phoenix and just said screw it and find some internal ways to get the streetcar system built. Maybe find some private donors who could put up portions of the needed funds to start this up.

What bothers me the most is that Milwaukee is trying to move forward and be an attractive place for people and businesses. But of course and on cue, whenever Milwaukee tries to move forward, out come the right wingers who hate to see Milwaukee succeed.

Why else would people cry about a useless bridge like the Hoan that would need to be replaced within 50 years anyways? Why else cry about lack of funds for roads but want more roads to be built? I never hear the right wingers complain when when roads and highways are being expanded. But let Milwaukee want to add a streetcar system that is a fraction of the cost that the Marquette and Zoo interchange cost and the right wingers come out in droves to complain because it doesn't serve them.

Seriously, I'm gonna write to Doyle that his last act as governor should be to add toll ways going into Milwaukee county. You love your roads so much then lets stop having people that don't use them so often stop subsidizing for them. Downtown Milwaukee is already nothing but ugly surface lots and parking garages built for the cry baby suburban commuter already. Having a viable permanent transit system in place (streetcar, not buses) would go a long way to reducing parking requirements. But alas, right wingers just want to see Milwaukee fail because its full of us evil liberals.

Well that was entertaining Jehuty! :okay:

Believe it or not, people can listen to talk radio and still make up their own minds on things. Although I'm pretty conservative I support mass transit. Just because some people agree with whats said on talk radio does not automatically make them a lemming. Perhaps you would add more to this discussion by responding with reasoning of support instead of whining about right wingers.

By the way, if you do not own a car, I highly doubt that you've paid anything towards any interstate construction projects or "subsidized" it in any way. If you don't own a home or condo, I doubt you've directly paid for any local roads either.

By the way, if you do not own a car, I highly doubt that you've paid anything towards any interstate construction projects or "subsidized" it in any way. If you don't own a home or condo, I doubt you've directly paid for any local roads either.

By the way, those interstates are paid for largely with federal dollars. Since the feds are bailing out the National Highway trust fund repeatedly, if you pay income taxes, you are subsidizing the interstates.

Don't even start again with the myth that renters don't pay taxes or don't somehow contribute. You don't need to pay for something directly to still be the one paying the tab, even if it is through your rent check.

Well that was entertaining Jehuty! :okay:

Believe it or not, people can listen to talk radio and still make up their own minds on things. Although I'm pretty conservative I support mass transit. Just because some people agree with whats said on talk radio does not automatically make them a lemming.

Except they don't think for themselves. They regurgitate word-for-word everything they are brainwashed with via conservative talk radio. They even refer to themselves as "dittoheads". These are not people who are thinking independently.


By the way, if you do not own a car, I highly doubt that you've paid anything towards any interstate construction projects or "subsidized" it in any way. If you don't own a home or condo, I doubt you've directly paid for any local roads either.

This is laughable, Coldwake. You need to study some economics if you think that businesses don't pass on their tax costs for shipping to consumers. Also, we've been over this several times... HIGHWAYS ARE NOT EVEN HALF FUNDED BY THE GAS TAX ANYMORE. America is overpaved and our highways are overbuilt-- the gas taxes doesn't pay for half of their maintenance/construction costs and therefore taxes from elsewhere have to pay for them. Don't start this "I pay more taxes than you do" nonsense. I pay for your kids to go to public schools (probably), and if I had a conservative's attitude, I'd be ticked off about it, as it's not helping ME directly. Instead, a little dose of socialism will tell you that when the public invests in things together like schools and infrastructure and rail transit, we are all better off for it. So I'll pay for your kids to go to school but you damn well better pay for my mass transit...

Boatnurd,

You are extremely shortsighted when it comes to rail transportation. Its not even worth going over the benefits a streetcar system would bring to Milwaukee. Some people are just anti-rail just because right wing radio tells them to be so.

jehuty, I feel your passion and I too want a light rail system. We simply cannot afford it right now. That is my biggest concern. I admit my very conservative mindset is always thinking about how do we pay for it without breaking the bank or placing the burden on our taxpaying citizens or those future generations. This is all very good and civil conversation and I appreciate hearing both sides of the debate.

jehuty, I feel your passion and I too want a light rail system. We simply cannot afford it right now. That is my biggest concern. I admit my very conservative mindset is always thinking about how do we pay for it without breaking the bank or placing the burden on our taxpaying citizens or those future generations. This is all very good and civil conversation and I appreciate hearing both sides of the debate.

what about the COSTS we are bestowing future generations by spending hand over fist on highways? not to mention the environmental COSTS they will inherit if we do not stem the inefficiencies and wastefulness brought upon by an excessively auto-dependent society? i'm not saying we need to kill the automobile but the costs of our highway-minded culture FAR outweigh the costs of providing needed rail-based mass transit systems-- simply, if for no other reason, than to provide an ALTERNATIVE to highway travel (busses still count as highway travel).

Boatnurd,

You are extremely shortsighted when it comes to rail transportation. Its not even worth going over the benefits a streetcar system would bring to Milwaukee. Some people are just anti-rail just because right wing radio tells them to be so.

My biggest wish is that Milwaukee was more like
portland and phoenix and just said screw it and find some internal ways to get the streetcar system built. Maybe find some private donors who could put up portions of the needed funds to start this up.

What bothers me the most is that Milwaukee is trying to move forward and be an attractive place for people and businesses. But of course and on cue, whenever Milwaukee tries to move forward, out come the right wingers who hate to see Milwaukee succeed.

Why else would people cry about a useless bridge like the Hoan that would need to be replaced within 50 years anyways? Why else cry about lack of funds for roads but want more roads to be built? I never hear the right wingers complain when when roads and highways are being expanded. But let Milwaukee want to add a streetcar system that is a fraction of the cost that the Marquette and Zoo interchange cost and the right wingers come out in droves to complain because it doesn't serve them.

Seriously, I'm gonna write to Doyle that his last act as governor should be to add toll ways going into Milwaukee county. You love your roads so much then lets stop having people that don't use them so often stop subsidizing for them. Downtown Milwaukee is already nothing but ugly surface lots and parking garages built for the cry baby suburban commuter already. Having a viable permanent transit system in place (streetcar, not buses) would go a long way to reducing parking requirements. But alas, right wingers just want to see Milwaukee fail because its full of us evil liberals.
What happened to the über-extensive LRT network that Milwaukee once had?

Mike

Boatnurd,

You are extremely shortsighted when it comes to rail transportation. Its not even worth going over the benefits a streetcar system would bring to Milwaukee. Some people are just anti-rail just because right wing radio tells them to be so.

My biggest wish is that Milwaukee was more like
portland and phoenix and just said screw it and find some internal ways to get the streetcar system built. Maybe find some private donors who could put up portions of the needed funds to start this up.

What bothers me the most is that Milwaukee is trying to move forward and be an attractive place for people and businesses. But of course and on cue, whenever Milwaukee tries to move forward, out come the right wingers who hate to see Milwaukee succeed.

Why else would people cry about a useless bridge like the Hoan that would need to be replaced within 50 years anyways? Why else cry about lack of funds for roads but want more roads to be built? I never hear the right wingers complain when when roads and highways are being expanded. But let Milwaukee want to add a streetcar system that is a fraction of the cost that the Marquette and Zoo interchange cost and the right wingers come out in droves to complain because it doesn't serve them.

Seriously, I'm gonna write to Doyle that his last act as governor should be to add toll ways going into Milwaukee county. You love your roads so much then lets stop having people that don't use them so often stop subsidizing for them. Downtown Milwaukee is already nothing but ugly surface lots and parking garages built for the cry baby suburban commuter already. Having a viable permanent transit system in place (streetcar, not buses) would go a long way to reducing parking requirements. But alas, right wingers just want to see Milwaukee fail because its full of us evil liberals.

I just got to laugh,

1, If you want to criticize all the idiots who oppose a streetcar becuase they got their marching orders from talk radio, then lay out your case, instead of just posting childish insults. If street cars were the magic bullets that bring growth and prosperity every where they are built, then why don't we build the very first street car line directly in to the poorest areas of the city and watch the magic happen.


2, If private citizen or company wants to fund this thing, then lets see their proposal and work something out. The irony of having a private investor foot the bill on this thing would be well worth the temporary inconvience of constructing it. Herb Kohl should have some change laying around, why don't you pitch this thing to him.

3, I am not sure how many angry right wingers are out there who want to watch Milwaukee fall apart. Oh yeah, I forgot, they all live in the burbs, hate the city, and love their cars, want strip malls on every block, and perfectly conform to every other sterotype you have in your mind about them.

4, Rebuilding the hoan, marquette, and zoo us not even the same debate as adding a new street car line. All of those projects are about rebuilding infrastructure that has outlived its life, and is on the verge of becoming unsafe. The city has grown around those projects, and people depend on their being available. Would you rather build an entire street car network for the city, or rebuild the two buisiest interchanges in the state, as well a bridge that will carry more people than a street car system for decades.

5, If you want to toll roads, I actaully don't think it is a terrible idea. Fact is auto technology is changing. Cars are mandated to be much more fuel efficient and enviromentally friendly. Current gas taxes will not make up the short falls sure to come. A new road funding system needs to be explored, and tolls could be a good way to fund the system. I would add to that though, that if you toll roads, then trains ought to also cover their FARE share of cost through fares, advertising, or whatever gimmick you have to do to balance the books. Nobody wants to see Milwaukee fail becuase it is full of evil liberals, they just want to stop them from making Milwaukee fail.

This is laughable, Coldwake. You need to study some economics if you think that businesses don't pass on their tax costs for shipping to consumers. Also, we've been over this several times... HIGHWAYS ARE NOT EVEN HALF FUNDED BY THE GAS TAX ANYMORE. America is overpaved and our highways are overbuilt-- the gas taxes doesn't pay for half of their maintenance/construction costs and therefore taxes from elsewhere have to pay for them. Don't start this "I pay more taxes than you do" nonsense. I pay for your kids to go to public schools (probably), and if I had a conservative's attitude, I'd be ticked off about it, as it's not helping ME directly. Instead, a little dose of socialism will tell you that when the public invests in things together like schools and infrastructure and rail transit, we are all better off for it. So I'll pay for your kids to go to school but you damn well better pay for my mass transit...
Simple - the state and federal fuel tax rates are not percentage-based. They are volume-based and as such are impossible, politically, to keep level with inflation. Had they been made percentage-based at a level that was revenue-neutral with the volume-based taxrate back in the 1940s or 1950s, yes, the pump-price of fuel would likely be about $1.00-1.50 more than it is now, nobody would be whining about it (it would have been a steady pricing progression from then to now) - and we'd now have the *BEST* roads in the World!

:ohno:

Mike

4, Rebuilding the hoan, marquette, and zoo us not even the same debate as adding a new street car line. All of those projects are about rebuilding infrastructure that has outlived its life, and is on the verge of becoming unsafe. The city has grown around those projects, and people depend on their being available. Would you rather build an entire street car network for the city, or rebuild the two buisiest interchanges in the state, as well a bridge that will carry more people than a street car system for decades.
The continued good health of the Marquette and Zoo, especially, are both of HYPER-CRITICAL IMPORTANCE to the continued economic health of the entire eastern half of the state - most of the non-rail commerce into and out of the Green Bay-Fox Cities area passes through one or the other, as well as on I-94 south of the Mitchell.

Those are not just 'Milwaukee' projects.

Mike

MilwaukeeMax

That is exactly what i'm trying to say, an alternative is needed. It drives me nuts how the rustbelt cities are so slow to grasp this concept. Cities like Milwaukee and especially Detroit put all their eggs in one basket (manufacturing, and roads) and when those cities fell, all the eggs cracked.

The Hoan bridge for example is in the same pool as the now extinct park east freeway. They both where giant mistakes that should have never been built. You don't put needless freeways in your cities most viable areas.

Seriously, It really ticks me off that so much of downtown Milwaukees city blocks are filled with unsightly parking structures and surface parking lots. It completely kills the urban fabric. The thing is everyone knows real mass transit would go a long ways to fixing the parking situation downtown and have the most important benefit of moving people around a city that contains 600k+ people. But for some reason (and this is for you Coldwake) almost all the opposition to putting in rail transit or improving Milwaukee comes from the right wingers. And yes Coldlake, I pay my fare share of taxes, the difference between you and me is that I don't cry about it because I know it benefits other people, just as other people paying their taxes have benefited me.

I understand that there isn't enough money to fix everything but we do have the money to start up the streetcar system. Some more funds could help stretch out the routes to neighborhoods that will use it even more (east side, UWM). All this will help modernizing Milwaukee and make it more attractive to businesses and people.

This is laughable, Coldwake. You need to study some economics if you think that businesses don't pass on their tax costs for shipping to consumers. indirectly they are paid for... but those goods also traveled via those roads hence they are paid for by the user.

Also, we've been over this several times... HIGHWAYS ARE NOT EVEN HALF FUNDED BY THE GAS TAX ANYMORE.

WI highways are funded roughly 60% by fed and state gas taxes. Another 21% is funded by vehicle registrations. Another 8% is funded through bonds which is money that does not come from the tax rolls. So almost 90% of the funding does not come from tax payers except people using cars and roads.


America is overpaved and our highways are overbuilt-- the gas taxes doesn't pay for half of their maintenance/construction costs and therefore taxes from elsewhere have to pay for them. See above

Don't start this "I pay more taxes than you do" nonsense. I pay for your kids to go to public schools (probably), and if I had a conservative's attitude, I'd be ticked off about it, as it's not helping ME directly. Instead, a little dose of socialism will tell you that when the public invests in things together like schools and infrastructure and rail transit, we are all better off for it. So I'll pay for your kids to go to school but you damn well better pay for my mass transit...

I don't have kids. Plus, in addition to supporting mass transit, I support schools and other "infrastructure." However, notice that even though I support transit, I'm not whining about most other transpotation funding.

Lets keep in mind that I think some spending on transportation is frivilous and wasteful. But I'm not going to blanketly say that all highway/road funding is bad just because I like trains. Neither am I going to group all liberals in the same light because I know some that are quite level headed about these things.

Coldwake, who pays back the bonds?

Regardless, you are only looking at state highways and interstates...a very small portion of roads. Most roads, local roads, are paid for with the property tax. We've had this debate over and over on this forum, but the gas tax does not pay for the most of the roads that everyone who drives a car uses on a daily basis.

I just got to laugh,

1, If you want to criticize all the idiots who oppose a streetcar becuase they got their marching orders from talk radio, then lay out your case, instead of just posting childish insults. If street cars were the magic bullets that bring growth and prosperity every where they are built, then why don't we build the very first street car line directly in to the poorest areas of the city and watch the magic happen.


2, If private citizen or company wants to fund this thing, then lets see their proposal and work something out. The irony of having a private investor foot the bill on this thing would be well worth the temporary inconvience of constructing it. Herb Kohl should have some change laying around, why don't you pitch this thing to him.

3, I am not sure how many angry right wingers are out there who want to watch Milwaukee fall apart. Oh yeah, I forgot, they all live in the burbs, hate the city, and love their cars, want strip malls on every block, and perfectly conform to every other sterotype you have in your mind about them.

4, Rebuilding the hoan, marquette, and zoo us not even the same debate as adding a new street car line. All of those projects are about rebuilding infrastructure that has outlived its life, and is on the verge of becoming unsafe. The city has grown around those projects, and people depend on their being available. Would you rather build an entire street car network for the city, or rebuild the two buisiest interchanges in the state, as well a bridge that will carry more people than a street car system for decades.

5, If you want to toll roads, I actaully don't think it is a terrible idea. Fact is auto technology is changing. Cars are mandated to be much more fuel efficient and enviromentally friendly. Current gas taxes will not make up the short falls sure to come. A new road funding system needs to be explored, and tolls could be a good way to fund the system. I would add to that though, that if you toll roads, then trains ought to also cover their FARE share of cost through fares, advertising, or whatever gimmick you have to do to balance the books. Nobody wants to see Milwaukee fail becuase it is full of evil liberals, they just want to stop them from making Milwaukee fail.

Glad I could entertain you,

1) Where did I say they where a Magic bullet that brings growth and prosperity to every city? What they have indeed shown to have do is invigorate areas in which they are built in. You want proof? look at the success of Dallas, Little Rock, Memphis, New Orleans, Philadelphia, Portland, Tampa, San Francisco, Phoenix and Seattle. Further more, if so many cities think streetcars systems won't improve things for them, then why do so many cities want to implement them. Obviously they provide tremendous benefits. (this is taken from a Cincinnati website for promoting streetcar system) "A modern streetcar system could serve key population centers and destinations. The streetcar would promote economic development and high-density, mixed-use projects while providing an alternate form of transportation". Hope that answers that question for you.

2) Why should the private sector construct this thing? Are you kidding me? Are you really gonna use that line of reasoning? Why doesn't the private sector construct highways or built airports. Surely these things are huge money makers and they'd see huge profits from them.

3) Like its really news to residents of the city of Milwaukee that Waukesha county in general just doesn't like us. And yes the suburbanites love their cars which is why they whole concept of suburban living revolves around owning a car. Without one, living in the suburbs would be extremely hard to pull off. Do they all hate the city, no. But then again I don't recall saying they all did.

4) I completely agree with fixing the Marquette and zoo interchanges. But the Hoan? Tear that ugly bridge down. The only reason the Hoan is some sort of sacred cow is because Milwaukee's neighbors to the south love to complain about how its some sort of vital link to downtown for them. A street level parkway would serve the same need and just add a couple minutes to their precious driving time. Never mind the fact that there is a perfectly good working interstate just a whopping 5 miles to the west.

5) Isn't beautiful when two opposite sides can find common ground in something? I believe trains and other sorts of transit do charge passengers extra to make up for fees (like crossing that lines and all sorts of taxes). Taxes are supposed to pay for many things, but the fact is that they don't. I agree that we do overspend in this country. But you don't kill things that are vital to future growth. That why the highway and interstate system is so important. Thats why airports and harbors are so important. And thats why rail transit will be so important.

Coldwake, who pays back the bonds?

Regardless, you are only looking at state highways and interstates...a very small portion of roads. Most roads, local roads, are paid for with the property tax. We've had this debate over and over on this forum, but the gas tax does not pay for the most of the roads that everyone who drives a car uses on a daily basis.


The bonds are paid out of the transportation fund, which again is covered by the above percentages.

And yes, we've had this discussion before, and local roads are paid for by property taxes because well... like schools, police, etc they are necessary for people who live there. You have to access your property, you can't just have everyones property right next to eachother and live on personal islands.

I hate to keep bringing this "debate" up but people continually act as if highway funding is somehow the evil that's stopping mass transit funding and talking about how so much of their money goes towards roads when really it doesn't. Half these people complaining don't even have a car.

I hate to keep bringing this "debate" up but people continually act as if highway funding is somehow the evil that's stopping mass transit funding and talking about how so much of their money goes towards roads when really it doesn't. Half these people complaining don't even have a car.

No one thinks highway funding is evil. Only that some people are hypocrites because they'll talk about how great highways are, but go crazy about how rail or transit doesn't pay for itself... completely ignoring subsidies for highways.

It's the ignorance and hypocrisy that are pathetic, because many times it's repeated by people that should really know better.

The bonds are paid out of the transportation fund, which again is covered by the above percentages.

And yes, we've had this discussion before, and local roads are paid for by property taxes because well... like schools, police, etc they are necessary for people who live there. You have to access your property, you can't just have everyones property right next to eachother and live on personal islands.

I hate to keep bringing this "debate" up but people continually act as if highway funding is somehow the evil that's stopping mass transit funding and talking about how so much of their money goes towards roads when really it doesn't. Half these people complaining don't even have a car.

how could you NOT have a car in this auto-centric cement block?! I have a car (granted i live close enough to work to bicycle and walk), but I have a car BECAUSE there are no reasonable alternatives at this time. I pay for your highways and roads through gas taxes, registration fees, property taxes, sales taxes, user fees, my personal safety and my personal health but I'd rather my money and sacrifices go to putting in rail transit that I can use instead.

We can't even come to an agreed-upon stance on an internet forum with dozens of development-friendly, urbanism addicts. This is like polemizing the existence of God. The answers are maddeningly obvious, yet so many of you on this forum and in our metro are are sitting with their fingers in their ears yelling, "LALALALALALALALA."

ffs if we can even agree here, I have little hope for this region. Screw all the nimby troglodytes of Wisconsin. I will gladly take my tax dollars elsewhere. Helloooo Portland!

So umm.... where does that put you on this D-res? :)

We can't even come to an agreed-upon stance on an internet forum with dozens of development-friendly, urbanism addicts. This is like polemizing the existence of God. The answers are maddeningly obvious, yet so many of you on this forum and in our metro are are sitting with their fingers in their ears yelling, "LALALALALALALALA."

ffs if we can even agree here, I have little hope for this region. Screw all the nimby troglodytes of Wisconsin. I will gladly take my tax dollars elsewhere. Helloooo Portland!

Ditto that! Helloooo, Denver!

When I think about it, I'm really frustrated. When I moved back here three and a half years ago, I was lured back by the exciting changes that were taking place, and the promise that Milwaukee was going places. It seemed to me as a former resident who had been out of state for six years that Milwaukee had finally shaken off it's age-old habit of debating things endlessly and achieving little, and things were actually happening. I (foolishly, now, I realize...) thought a rail transit network wasn't too far behind. I also realize the economy is a huge factor, and it has thrown a huge wrench in any kind of development. What I can't deal with anymore is the provincial attitudes in this town that paralyze it.

I understand that another type of transportation is necessary in the growing population of Wisconsin. However, with the proposed fares for the proposed rail system between MKE and MAD I just can't see individuals paying 25-40 bucks for a ONE WAY ticket between each city. Imagine how much this would cost a family of four or just a single guy making 30-40 k a year.

In addition, for example if you wanted to take the rail to a Brewer game you would have to pay 50-80 dollars per person not including the cab fee to then get to the stadium. Someone can drive each way (140 miles) for about 20 bucks in gas and then an extra 10 bucks for parking at the stadium.

This also won't work because cars are convenient and can take you exactly where you want to go where you won't have to make pit stops (Brookfield, Oconomowoc, Johnson Creek), and your only going to be going 79 mph initally.

Yea HSR would be cool to have, but how many people can actually afford to use this?

Yea HSR would be cool to have, but how many people can actually afford to use this?

Very few will use it. Government workers traveling back and forth will have their fare paid for by the taxpayer and this will inflate the daily rider numbers. Others will pay but a large percentage of their fare will be subsidized. Save the money and disruption to our cities. This will be another white elephant! Oh yea, we cannot afford this right now too.

See...someone asked me last night why I'm so psychotically against cars. I told them that I think cars are great inventions and I probably wouldn't hate them so much if we, as a country, weren't so addicted to them. These conversations are exactly what I'm talking about. Car drivers blindly think that automobiles are the only way to travel around the world. They're also willing to destroy buildings, neighborhoods, and their own surroundings to continue their way of life. (That last little part is where your friends would admit you, if this were any other addiction.) In most rational places, people realize that transportation needs to be as diverse as possible. We're incredibly far behind when it comes to transportation. Don't believe me? Go to Europe where you'll not only find more public transit options than we can image but also a freeway system that makes the interstate system look like crap.

We NEED public transit in this country...more than we need to maintain our freeway infrastructure. And for the freight trucking arguments, have you never heard of freight rail?

See...someone asked me last night why I'm so psychotically against cars. I told them that I think cars are great inventions and I probably wouldn't hate them so much if we, as a country, weren't so addicted to them. These conversations are exactly what I'm talking about. Car drivers blindly think that automobiles are the only way to travel around the world. They're also willing to destroy buildings, neighborhoods, and their own surroundings to continue their way of life. (That last little part is where your friends would admit you, if this were any other addiction.) In most rational places, people realize that transportation needs to be as diverse as possible. We're incredibly far behind when it comes to transportation. Don't believe me? Go to Europe where you'll not only find more public transit options than we can image but also a freeway system that makes the interstate system look like crap.

We NEED public transit in this country...more than we need to maintain our freeway infrastructure. And for the freight trucking arguments, have you never heard of freight rail?

Not to mention that it's far better to have systems in place before the oil price shocks come and really screw things up for cars. Wanna see some economic pain? Wait'll petrol is $6.00/gallon. But why fix that looming problem when we can just be in denial that that can ever happen?

Very few will use it. Government workers traveling back and forth will have their fare paid for by the taxpayer and this will inflate the daily rider numbers. Others will pay but a large percentage of their fare will be subsidized. Save the money and disruption to our cities. This will be another white elephant! Oh yea, we cannot afford this right now too.

Nonsense. You are just another conservative talk radio brainwashee. Why on earth would you say very few will use it? Are you basing this on the numbers of people who use the current Hiawatha train route between Milwaukee and Chicago, because THOUSANDS of people use that!

What we can't afford is more highways and more procrastination for future needs.

Transport Politic points out (http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/07/13/fort-worth-wins-grant-for-streetcar-but-whether-its-ready-is-another-question/) that this latest phase of grant money passed up places like Milwaukee but gave grants to places like Forth Worth, TX, which have very little planning or commitment done-- they don't even have a route laid-out for their streetcar system yet! Why should they be getting grant money before Milwaukee?!

Well, it doesn't seem like we can go back and change it now. I know that the Final Applications for the Tiger 2 grants is due August 23, and that they will announce recipients sometime after September 15. Does anyone know if this is being pursued to fill the $25 million request that the city had for the Urban Circulator Grants? It would seem, based on the USDOT description of the program, that the Streetcar would fit with the program's goals.

Being passed up twice this year now for federal funding of the Milwaukee Connector is more than infuriating for many of us... how do we rock the boat and make sure that the TIGER 2 grants get a fair shot of being accepted by the feds? It seems that other cities with less developed proposals and lesser needs are winning-- perhaps because outspokenness of their civic leaders or a general public demand? There is a small window for funding like this-- I doubt next year's fiscal budget (or years after for that matter) will have such generous offerings as these-- it irks me to no end that Milwaukee is getting ignored by the feds on its proposal. To me it sounds like someone (locally) isn't doing his/her job.

... how do we rock the boat and make sure that the TIGER 2 grants get a fair shot of being accepted by the feds? It seems that other cities with less developed proposals and lesser needs are winning-- perhaps because outspokenness of their civic leaders or a general public demand?...To me it sounds like someone (locally) isn't doing his/her job.

Instead of merely speculating and projecting your own often passionate and absolutist temperament upon the realities of a situation (and garnering more than your fair share of corrections for both errors of fact and unnecessary gratuitous insults to others), why don't you practice more often looking up the information you seek, and digesting and then presenting it in a more dispassionate manner? You seem, until now, committed to a "rock the boat" mindset, (kind of a throwback to the rockin' reelin' 60's) which, in my opinion at least, badly serves your goals, at least on this forum.

I could research more as well, but I'm no longer so young and energetic.

Instead of merely speculating and projecting your own often passionate and absolutist temperament upon the realities of a situation (and garnering more than your fair share of corrections for both errors of fact and unnecessary gratuitous insults to others), why don't you practice more often looking up the information you seek, and digesting and then presenting it in a more dispassionate manner? You seem, until now, committed to a "rock the boat" mindset, (kind of a throwback to the rockin' reelin' 60's) which, in my opinion at least, badly serves your goals, at least on this forum.

I could research more as well, but I'm no longer so young and energetic.

I, too, looksee am not as young and energetic as I was when I first started fighting for/advocating positive upgrades to Milwaukee's urban fabric. The reality is that I cannot post on here as often as many of you because I have a full time job to which I must attend and I also am not an expert in the areas of urban planning as a few on here (Markitect) seem to be. I try to do my own research but, to be quite honest with you, many of the sources online are behind and/or less informative than this very forum. Granted, sources such as the JS, Business Journal, Biztimes, Transport Politic, etc. provide news releases that usually filter their way over here, any insider information beyond their scopes is sometimes only available when users on here inquire. As for me, I try to do my part and email/call city and state officials as well as special interest groups involved but, apart from trying to go to important public meetings and forums on these subjects, I am not aware where/when grant proposals, such as these, are worked on and submitted. I trust that the DCD shares a common vision for the city, however, as an interested citizen, I wonder why proposals like this aren't more passionately sought after. Perhaps the younger people today just aren't as interested in these topics anymore...

While I think my generation is more unaware of the world around them as far as development and politics are concerned, I am one who has been obsessed with urban development in Milwaukee for years.

I too work a full time job during the summer and then during the school year am a full time student with a part time job. I try to keep up as much as possible with the news outlets that MilwaukeeMax has mentioned, and I do look into the meetings and information sessions about a lot of the subjects we talk about on here. However, it always seems that I am unable to attend.

I see the importance of the streetcar and the HSR not solely for what they will bring to the table at first, but because YOU HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE. Thinking of a HSR network across the Midwest and a streetcar systems serving locations all across the city is a dream for me. It's not going to be realized though until people stop being so small minded.

Although it needs to be faster, I'm all for the HSR, the streetcar and also for tearing down the Hoan, and replacing it with an at-grade roadway. So many people that argue for it don't realize that the land it frees up isn't just going to be on Jones Island and the port. Hundreds of developed acres connecting downtown and the Third Ward are possible.

So much potential...

Milwaukee County rolls out 90 clean diesel buses
Gary Porter
One of 90 new Milwaukee County Transit System clean diesel, zero emission buses, was on display for County officials to view outside of the Milwaukee County Courthouse Wednesday. The manufacturer, New Flyer, equipped the buses with a Cummins Aftertreatment System which will reduce oxides of nitrogen and particulate matter, achieve near-zero emissions and get better gas mileage.

By Sharif Durhams of the Journal Sentinel

Updated: July 14, 2010 2:14 p.m. |(27) Comments

Milwaukee County's bus system unveiled on Wednesday the first of 90 new buses purchased to replace those in its aging fleet.

The clean diesel buses cost a total of nearly $33 million. About half of that money came from the federal stimulus package.

Milwaukee County plans to buy 35 more buses in 2011, according to MCTS.

The new buses help the transit system delay a financial crisis. For years, Congress gave Milwaukee County money to replace buses, but the county used that money for maintenance on older buses. The Southeastern Wisconsin Regional Planning Commission and the Public Policy Forum warned in 2008 that the transit system would be forced to slash service by 35% as early as 2010 without new funding.

Using stimulus money to buy new buses will decrease maintenance costs and replace the largest group of old buses in the county fleet, county officials say. That will postpone, but not prevent, the looming fiscal crisis, leaders at the planning commission and policy forum say.

The new buses, manufactured by New Flyer, will feature a new paint scheme on the outside and a new color scheme on the inside.

As for me, I try to do my part and email/call city and state officials as well as special interest groups involved
I very sincerely hope that your communications are generally more temperate and better fact-checked than at least some of your postings here. Opinion that seems more emotional than informed is likely to be dismissed or even arouse the opposite of its intention.
(Except, mysteriously, for talk radio and Fox, which seem to consume, grow and thrive from any rational criticism aimed their way; Sort of like a reverse landfill that covers topsoil and living greenery beneath layers of waste and garbage; Just unnatural).

While I think my generation is more unaware of the world around them as far as development and politics are concerned, I am one who has been obsessed with urban development in Milwaukee for years.

I too work a full time job during the summer and then during the school year am a full time student with a part time job. I try to keep up as much as possible with the news outlets that MilwaukeeMax has mentioned, and I do look into the meetings and information sessions about a lot of the subjects we talk about on here. However, it always seems that I am unable to attend.

I see the importance of the streetcar and the HSR not solely for what they will bring to the table at first, but because YOU HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE. Thinking of a HSR network across the Midwest and a streetcar systems serving locations all across the city is a dream for me. It's not going to be realized though until people stop being so small minded.

Although it needs to be faster, I'm all for the HSR, the streetcar and also for tearing down the Hoan, and replacing it with an at-grade roadway. So many people that argue for it don't realize that the land it frees up isn't just going to be on Jones Island and the port. Hundreds of developed acres connecting downtown and the Third Ward are possible.

So much potential...


you do have to start somewhere,
and even detroit has the people mover.

i think with milwaukee you really have to work on the
alcohol side of issues.
its safer to get plastered and drunk and then
take a train home or you can drink for sure
on the train on the way home.

thats the only way this transit issue will move forward
in milwaukee, we have a crazy bar bicycle
contraption for gods sake

Milwaukee County rolls out 90 clean diesel buses
Gary Porter
One of 90 new Milwaukee County Transit System clean diesel, zero emission buses, was on display for County officials to view outside of the Milwaukee County Courthouse Wednesday. The manufacturer, New Flyer, equipped the buses with a Cummins Aftertreatment System which will reduce oxides of nitrogen and particulate matter, achieve near-zero emissions and get better gas mileage.

By Sharif Durhams of the Journal Sentinel

Updated: July 14, 2010 2:14 p.m. |(27) Comments

Milwaukee County's bus system unveiled on Wednesday the first of 90 new buses purchased to replace those in its aging fleet.

The clean diesel buses cost a total of nearly $33 million. About half of that money came from the federal stimulus package.

Milwaukee County plans to buy 35 more buses in 2011, according to MCTS.

The new buses help the transit system delay a financial crisis. For years, Congress gave Milwaukee County money to replace buses, but the county used that money for maintenance on older buses. The Southeastern Wisconsin Regional Planning Commission and the Public Policy Forum warned in 2008 that the transit system would be forced to slash service by 35% as early as 2010 without new funding.

Using stimulus money to buy new buses will decrease maintenance costs and replace the largest group of old buses in the county fleet, county officials say. That will postpone, but not prevent, the looming fiscal crisis, leaders at the planning commission and policy forum say.

The new buses, manufactured by New Flyer, will feature a new paint scheme on the outside and a new color scheme on the inside.

This is pretty exciting news for Milwaukee's transit system. Are there any pictures available of these new buses?

EDIT - A simple Google search:

http://www.wuwm.com/media/news/news_071410105743_a_hr.jpg

http://www.wuwm.com/media/news/news_071410105743_b_hr.jpg

We (UrbanMilwaukee.com) have a couple shots of the new buses as well, in our article MCTS Unveils New Buses (http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2010/07/14/mcts-unveils-new-buses/)

i think with milwaukee you really have to work on the
alcohol side of issues.
its safer to get plastered and drunk and then
take a train home or you can drink for sure
on the train on the way home.


:lol: The more time I spend living in this area, the more I see what you mean. Alcohol and bar-culture really are engrained around here. I think I fit in ;)

Nonsense. You are just another conservative talk radio brainwashee. Why on earth would you say very few will use it? Are you basing this on the numbers of people who use the current Hiawatha train route between Milwaukee and Chicago, because THOUSANDS of people use that!

What we can't afford is more highways and more procrastination for future needs.

Chicago is a much bigger market for travelers/commuters. Not only that but it's a hell of alot more difficult to drive around in and get to then Madison is. People in this state would laugh at the prices to take a train between Milwaukee and Madison--at least those not having their fares paid for by the government or their company. The rates to travel to Chicago ($22 one way) are rather reasonable when parking in Chicago is considered ($20 to park for instance).

I think that some on here are being slightly unreasonable though. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have light rail, KRM and all that jazz here. But why should people in this city and region be throwing a party for something they can't possibly ever use? Just look at the streetcar. Something like this is going to cost alot of money and benefit few. To people not interested in urban development, that seems like an utter waste of money when we have buses that essentially do the same thing. Buses aren't sexy or cool though. The problem with the anti-car/pro-mass transit argument in Milwaukee is that Milwaukee is a great driving city. It's easy/quick to get anywhere you want to go, parking is pretty cheap/available for the most part, and the traffic isn't all that bad on the expressways. Compare this to other cities where it's an complete nightmare to just to use an offramp (cough Chicago suburbs cough). People just don't feel a need for rail in Milwaukeee because of this and a bus service that handles the rest.

Ah why not, sometimes this thread gets way too serious!


Liberace, Milwaukee's own!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ao8vIrzYto&feature=PlayList&p=B1AAF05A9A5EF2FF&playnext_from=PL&index=1

I would have to say that if anything the ridership for the line is underestimated.

Think about it this way, right now the Hiawatha serves 2 major metropolitan areas so the only market it is able to serve is the Milwaukee to Chicago and Chicago to Milwaukee markets, by adding the third metropolitan area the line is now able to capture riders going Madison to Milwaukee, Madison to Chicago, Milwaukee to Chicago, Chicago to Madison, Chicago to Milwaukee and Milwaukee to Chicago. Whereas previously there was only two possible route combination, with the Madison addition to the line, there are now 6, and while the MKE-->CHI and CHI-->MKE are the backbone of the system which will bring in the most riders, the ridership of the entire system could possibly double as there are now 4 other major ridership route options.

Honest86, I'll give you a +1 for that one. You make a good point. However, I'm still skeptical (but hopeful) regarding the number of people that will ride that line. I think the big jump will come when the line extends to the twin cities though.

Honest86, I'll give you a +1 for that one. You make a good point. However, I'm still skeptical (but hopeful) regarding the number of people that will ride that line. I think the big jump will come when the line extends to the twin cities though.

Nice to see you assuming it's going forward. I guess we'll have to see after this next Governor race (which I'm not too optimistic about tbh)

[/b]

Nice to see you assuming it's going forward. I guess we'll have to see after this next Governor race (which I'm not too optimistic about tbh)

If Walker wins, it's done. There will be no advanced rail systems in Wisconsin, potentially for decades to come. This is the window and it's only cracked a tiny bit.

The key here is creating that link to Madison now, otherwise the potential for a high-speed link from Minneapolis to Chicago (which is the core benefit to the state of Wisconsin) fades away.

I do fear we'll look back on this time 30 years from now as the time Wisconsin missed the train. Or, more accurately, the time Wisconsinites got all crabby and decided to derail and burn the train.

@NeuBrew I do think if Walker wins the Minneapolis route will be on hold, but I'm not sure how you stop the Madison route.

@NeuBrew I do think if Walker wins the Minneapolis route will be on hold, but I'm not sure how you stop the Madison route.

Walker has stated that if elected, he would STOP the line to Madison and then (by mandate) give back the money to the feds already spent. He is THAT dangerous of a politician. He also wants to repeal the smoking ban in the state. If he is elected as governor and he halts the rail construction and stops the plans for rail transit in MKE, I am leaving Wisconsin for good.
I don't think I'd be alone, either. There was an article in today's JS (http://www.jsonline.com/business/96226434.html) discussing the issue of the slow growth of college educated citizens in Milwaukee. Part of the reason for the "brain drain" in Milwaukee, I think, is that there are so many small-minded, short-sighted vocal conservatives here who don't care to make this an attractive and livable city for everyone.. they only are looking out for increasing their own personal wealth. Because of their limited thinking, people like Walker get elected and then projects like rail transit and smart urban planning techniques get put on hold. We cannot allow these people to tyrannize the city and state anymore. If they win, there is no hope.

Walker has stated that if elected, he would STOP the line to Madison and then (by mandate) give back the money to the feds already spent. He is THAT dangerous of a politician. He also wants to repeal the smoking ban in the state. If he is elected as governor and he halts the rail construction and stops the plans for rail transit in MKE, I am leaving Wisconsin for good.
I don't think I'd be alone, either. There was an article in today's JS (http://www.jsonline.com/business/96226434.html) discussing the issue of the slow growth of college educated citizens in Milwaukee. Part of the reason for the "brain drain" in Milwaukee, I think, is that there are so many small-minded, short-sighted vocal conservatives here who don't care to make this an attractive and livable city for everyone.. they only are looking out for increasing their own personal wealth. Because of their limited thinking, people like Walker get elected and then projects like rail transit and smart urban planning techniques get put on hold. We cannot allow these people to tyrannize the city and state anymore. If they win, there is no hope.

Not to mention the massive de-investment in public education -- something Walker simply doesn't believe in.

Children perform best in school when their parents are involved in their education.

For too long, the education establishment in Wisconsin has used the legislature and the courts to shut parents out of the education process despite research showing that when parents are involved in their child’s education, students achieve higher grades, test scores, and graduation rates.

I believe parental involvement in education should be celebrated, not litigated. When it comes to investing state resources in education, we should build on what works instead of sinking more money into programs and systems that continue to fail.

We should expand successful educational options like school choice, charter schools and virtual school programs-particularly in Milwaukee

Yeah parents! I agree with Scott, parents do love their children. So, I now agree that we should de-fund our traditional schools, give the money to average citizens and hope they do well in the teaching biz despite the fact that this hasn't worked yet (an admission by the organization that first suggested the experiment).

Sorry for the political departure, but it really concerns me that this could effect all future investments in our infrastructure.

This is pretty exciting news for Milwaukee's transit system. Are there any pictures available of these new buses?

EDIT - A simple Google search:

http://www.wuwm.com/media/news/news_071410105743_a_hr.jpg

http://www.wuwm.com/media/news/news_071410105743_b_hr.jpg

You know, obviously I'm all for the streetcar proposal and the KRM and HSR as the rail-based transit offers far more permanence, efficiency, cleanliness and potential speed than diesel-based bus systems overall, however not all the city's transit corridors can be served by the streetcar and I'm all for improved busses in the city/county as well. What I don't understand is how it is we can have absolutely NO rail transit whatsoever and yet we have busses that are over 16 years old and falling apart. Okay, these new busses are fine, but they're essentially v2.0 of the old busses. No dramatic increase in quality here. I went to the New Flyer website and wondered why we couldn't have a large group of Milwaukee County Busses more like this.
(http://www.newflyer.com/docs/investor_relationship/Newflyer_for_web/nfbrt.swf)

I know transit funding needs to change drastically to get away from property taxes and use a sale tax or some other sort of tax but I think it's safe to say that with the archaic bus system and "barely-enough" attitude of Scott Walker, we probably have one of the most primitive, anemic transit systems of any large city in the US.

I am all for this type of transit. Lets give up the fixed rail and get on board with the fixed route. This type of bus can go anywhere and the cost would be considerably lower than fixed rail. Dump our current bus system, replace with newer, better, and more efficient units. Are these less sexy than a fixed rail system? Seems it would do everything we need it to do for a fraction of the cost of fixed rail. I refer to the units in the video MilwaukeeMax provided.

Unfortunately, the State of Wisconsin is F L A T B R O K E. It is nearly out of money and cannot afford to spend all that is on the wish lists of the various interest groups.

As for the government schools (and PLEASE don't insult me by calling that 'public education'), we are sinking ungodly amounts of money that the state does not have into them - and getting CRAP results in return. 60 years ago, Milwaukee's government schools were SO GOOD that people were anxiously annexing their houses to the City of Milwaukee for no other reason than to gain access to them. What happened to them since?

:badnews:

Until I start seeing some concrete improvements in them, I cannot agree to keep sinking more and more money into them, ESPECIALLY money, $1.2G of it so far, that was paid to the State of Wisconsin over the past eight years in the good faith that it would be used to BUILD AND MAINTAIN THE STATE"S ROADS!.

Yes, I consider transport infrastructure improvements to be 'economic enablers' that allow for wholesome long-term economic activity and growth to occur. BUT, I will *NEVER* tout road, rail, airport and whatever else improvements as methods of 'job creation' - as when those projects are complete, those jobs go 'poof!'. The fact that outstate, Wisconsin has very good roads has been one of the few things that has kept the state's economy from completely tanking.

Also, yes, I do believe that restoring useful intercity rail passenger service in Wisconsin is in the state's long-term best interest, BUT, until the state government's finances return to sound health, they will have to wait.

Remember, if the money isn't there, it is all nothing more than an exercise in academia.

:ohno:

Mike

I am all for this type of transit. Lets give up the fixed rail and get on board with the fixed route. This type of bus can go anywhere and the cost would be considerably lower than fixed rail. Dump our current bus system, replace with newer, better, and more efficient units. Are these less sexy than a fixed rail system? Seems it would do everything we need it to do for a fraction of the cost of fixed rail. I refer to the units in the video MilwaukeeMax provided.
I have been saying for years that if the powers-that-be in the Milwaukee area want to set up an electrically-powered transit system that they should bring back the city's once über-extensive 'trackless' trolleybus system.

Mike

I have been saying for years that if the powers-that-be in the Milwaukee area want to set up an electrically-powered transit system that they should bring back the city's once über-extensive 'trackless' trolleybus system.

Mike

It was my understanding that the 'trackless' trollys were never really big here. As I understand it, they seemed to cover a few routes as a compromise from removing the streetcar altogether, but eventually were replaced by buses.

Do you have a list/map of trackless trolly routes? I can only recall the former route 14(currently 11) on north Holton street, but I knew there were a couple more...

Walker has stated that if elected, he would STOP the line to Madison and then (by mandate) give back the money to the feds already spent. He is THAT dangerous of a politician. He also wants to repeal the smoking ban in the state. If he is elected as governor and he halts the rail construction and stops the plans for rail transit in MKE, I am leaving Wisconsin for good.

Is that a promise?? OK, just kidding. But in reality neither republican candidate will have the power or political will to stop the madison train or the smoking ban. It is all posturing knowing that they could never get it done.



I don't think I'd be alone, either. There was an article in today's JS (http://www.jsonline.com/business/96226434.html) discussing the issue of the slow growth of college educated citizens in Milwaukee. Part of the reason for the "brain drain" in Milwaukee, I think, is that there are so many small-minded, short-sighted vocal conservatives here who don't care to make this an attractive and livable city for everyone.. they only are looking out for increasing their own personal wealth. Are you on crack? You're going to call Walker out for only caring about his own personal wealth when most years he was in office he only accepted a fraction of his actual salary each year? And do you really think that a county exec is a place to get rich? Even running for governor is a job for someone who is already rich, not to become rich in.

Also, Walker's concern for keeping taxes low for citizens and business is so Milwaukee and WI CAN be livable. How many people do you see rushing off to these "livable," high tax, supposedly (but not really any more then WI) high service places? How's CA doing? MA? IL?


Because of their limited thinking, people like Walker get elected and then projects like rail transit and smart urban planning techniques get put on hold. We cannot allow these people to tyrannize the city and state anymore. If they win, there is no hope.

I recognize that there are differing opinions on how government should run, and I appreciate that. In fact, since I'm not a hard core conservative I know that we need democrats on the other side to hold the far right in check. Just as we need the right to hold the left in check. Usually the best run places are those with a workable balance between political party's. Oh, except Texas, they do things GREAT there and it's pretty much all conservative. :)

It was my understanding that the 'trackless' trollys were never really big here. As I understand it, they seemed to cover a few routes as a compromise from removing the streetcar altogether, but eventually were replaced by buses.


Milwaukee did have quite an extensive trackless trolley system. There were ten routes (13, 14, 15, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 35, 37) covering all parts of the city, as well as some suburbs. Beginning in 1936, they began replacing streetcar lines one by one (which was about a 20-year-long process). Later, all trackless trolleys routes were replaced pretty quickly with diesel buses (about a 3.5-year-long process) in the few years leading up to 1965.

Milwaukee did have quite an extensive trackless trolley system. There were ten routes (13, 14, 15, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 35, 37) covering all parts of the city, as well as some suburbs. Beginning in 1936, they began replacing streetcar lines one by one (which was about a 20-year-long process). Later, all trackless trolleys routes were replaced pretty quickly with diesel buses (about a 3.5-year-long process) in the few years leading up to 1965.

Cool, I didn't really know the history... thanks for the summary

Cool, I didn't really know the history... thanks for the summary
I saw a map in a book a few years ago, the system was incredibly extensive. Many of today's Milwaukee County Transit trunk bus routes in the City of Milwaukee (mainly in the older, pre-Annexation Wars city area) in fact replaced earlier streetcar and trackless trolleybus routes.

Why were the trackless trolleys replaced with diesel buses? As best as I can tell, by the late 1950s and early 1960s, the vehicles were reaching the ends of their expected lifetimes and at that time, diesel fuel was pretty much 'giveaway' cheap, especially when compared with electricity and wire maintenance.

OTOH, the trolleybuses were very quiet and totally clean in their direct operation.

Today, five USA metros use trackless trolleybuses - Boston/Cambridge, MA (MBTA); Dayton, OH; Philadelphia, PA (SEPTA); San Francisco, CA (MUNI) and Seattle, WA.

Mike

I'm way too young to have ever ridden trackless trolleys in Milwaukee, but I've seen & ridden them in Seattle & Vancouver. They really are night and day as far as sound/odor problems.

The only issue is that they're the same as regular buses as far as the smoothness of the ride. Rail just cannot be beat on that... that would be especially true for Milwaukee streets.

Oh, except Texas, they do things GREAT there and it's pretty much all conservative. :)

The best city in Texas is liberal though...;)

Anyone else see this?

Walker's Point mural comes under scrutiny (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/entertainment/98756189.html)

Donovan's a moron. Where is the recall petition for that idiot? :ohno:

While I've never been a fan of his, I actually agree with Donovan on this one regarding the graffiti-style mural in his district. Yes, we need outlets for students to display their artisitc talents, but not at the expense of comprimising the integrity of a neighborhood. Like it or not, even "mural art" looks like graffiti, and that devalues housing and rips at the fabric of a community. Donovan may not be the smoothest politician out there, but he is aggressively representing his constituents. At least, those who are taxpayers. Graffiti is bad business for any neighborhood, urban or rural, because of what it represents.

I think the mural was actually well done. While it may have had a "hip-hop" style, it was way better than any graffiti I've ever seen.

HOWEVER... while art can often be interpreted in different ways, I think this mural conveyed a negative message. I don't think it was a good choice by the artists to paint it.

While I've never been a fan of his, I actually agree with Donovan on this one regarding the graffiti-style mural in his district. Yes, we need outlets for students to display their artisitc talents, but not at the expense of comprimising the integrity of a neighborhood. Like it or not, even "mural art" looks like graffiti, and that devalues housing and rips at the fabric of a community. Donovan may not be the smoothest politician out there, but he is aggressively representing his constituents. At least, those who are taxpayers. Graffiti is bad business for any neighborhood, urban or rural, because of what it represents.

It wasn't actually in his district. - http://www.city.milwaukee.gov/router.asp?docid=1834

The mural was located in Walker's Point, in Jim Witkowiak's district. - http://www.city.milwaukee.gov/router.asp?docid=2301

Yeah, he wasn't involved because it was his district, it was because he is head of the antri graffiti group or something along those lines. I forget exactly.

I think it's rather amusing that people are freaking out about this. Is this really any worse then some of the other public art in this city? Seriously, is there another city where public art gets more attention/public outcry? We had the Blue Shirt, Bronze Fonz, "The Calling" (ie. the orange piece of metal in front of the Art Museum), the bamboo garden, the "Whale Wall", the Water St. median thing that was compared to a graveyard, the Wisconsin Ave. flap sign artwork, etc.

The subject matter of the mural is kind of ridiculous though--with a dude in a hazmat suit holding a biological weapon aimed at downtown Milwaukee. This mural doesn't really scream "empowering at risk youth". I wish grant money could be directed at more innovative art. Give me more things like "Wind Leaves". This mural is cool, but the art is dime a dozen and really doesn't seem like a positive piece of art like the Esperanza Unida mural.

Walker has stated that if elected, he would STOP the line to Madison and then (by mandate) give back the money to the feds already spent. He is THAT dangerous of a politician. He also wants to repeal the smoking ban in the state. If he is elected as governor and he halts the rail construction and stops the plans for rail transit in MKE, I am leaving Wisconsin for good.
I don't think I'd be alone, either. There was an article in today's JS (http://www.jsonline.com/business/96226434.html) discussing the issue of the slow growth of college educated citizens in Milwaukee. Part of the reason for the "brain drain" in Milwaukee, I think, is that there are so many small-minded, short-sighted vocal conservatives here who don't care to make this an attractive and livable city for everyone.. they only are looking out for increasing their own personal wealth. Because of their limited thinking, people like Walker get elected and then projects like rail transit and smart urban planning techniques get put on hold. We cannot allow these people to tyrannize the city and state anymore. If they win, there is no hope.

From the article:
Indeed, the longstanding and continuing poor performance of MPS students as a whole is arguably the city's biggest problem.

Funny no mention of trains. What's the better investment for Milwaukee, trains for the rich, or fixing the schools??

@usbmfa That's a false choice. Because it's not as if the transit money will end up in MPS's pocket if there is no HSR or streetcar Those funds will end up in some other state.

I think it's rather amusing that people are freaking out about this. Is this really any worse then some of the other public art in this city? Seriously, is there another city where public art gets more attention/public outcry? We had the Blue Shirt, Bronze Fonz, "The Calling" (ie. the orange piece of metal in front of the Art Museum), the bamboo garden, the "Whale Wall", the Water St. median thing that was compared to a graveyard, the Wisconsin Ave. flap sign artwork, etc.

The subject matter of the mural is kind of ridiculous though--with a dude in a hazmat suit holding a biological weapon aimed at downtown Milwaukee. This mural doesn't really scream "empowering at risk youth". I wish grant money could be directed at more innovative art. Give me more things like "Wind Leaves". This mural is cool, but the art is dime a dozen and really doesn't seem like a positive piece of art like the Esperanza Unida mural.

I don't think you can compare "well-done graffiti" with other art as you suggest. And I agree with you that the subject matter is alarming and off-putting. On the other hand, the eagle and dove with flags mural on the Esperanza Unida building is very nicely done. It has been there a long time and reflects well on the neighborhood. The biological hazmat thing is creepy. So, perhaps it's more about the subject matter than anything.

Funny no mention of trains. What's the better investment for Milwaukee, trains for the rich, or fixing the schools??

Yeah, that's what will fix MPS... if only it had more money. It's really just that simple.

^^
NOTHING will be of any positive effect in MPS until after the MTEA is disposed of. Until then, any money thrown at it will be completely wasted.

Mike

Yeah, that's what will fix MPS... if only it had more money. It's really just that simple.

To clarify I was being extremely sarcastic... I thought it was obvious when I wrote it, but some people really :bash: do think that way.

I think what USBMFA meant to say was "why are we spending billions of dollars on gold plated highways for suburbanites when the schools are suffering?" :lol:

^^
NOTHING will be of any positive effect in MPS until after the MTEA is disposed of. Until then, any money thrown at it will be completely wasted.

Mike

Is MTEA the teacher's union in Milwaukee?

^^
NOTHING will be of any positive effect in MPS until after the School Board is disposed of. Until then, any money thrown at it will be completely wasted.

Mike

Fixed. ;)

Is MTEA the teacher's union in Milwaukee?

Yes.

Is MTEA the teacher's union in Milwaukee?
Yes it is, the Milwaukee Teachers Education Association. Interestingly, they are, for all that I am aware of, completely separate from WEAC (the Wisconsin Education Association Council), the government school teachers union that covers the rest of the state).

When the MPS board WAS heavy on reformers back in the 1990s, the MTEA stonewalled EVERYTHING that the board tried to do to clean things up and otherwise fix Milwaukee's government schools - to the point where the board essentially gave up.

As it is now, MPS is essentially a cesspool where the top (only?) priority of those in charge is trying to get as many teachers and staff onto the payroll as possible and as much pay and benefits as possible for them (try to get your employer to cover 100% of the cost of your health plan, for example, like MPS has) - everything and everyone else, especially taxpayers, be damned.

:ohno:

Mike

When the MPS board WAS heavy on reformers back in the 1990s, the MTEA stonewalled EVERYTHING that the board tried to do to clean things up and otherwise fix Milwaukee's government schools - to the point where the board essentially gave up.

As it is now, MPS is essentially a cesspool where the top (only?) priority of those in charge is trying to get as many teachers and staff onto the payroll as possible and as much pay and benefits as possible for them (try to get your employer to cover 100% of the cost of your health plan, for example, like MPS has) - everything and everyone else, especially taxpayers, be damned.

:ohno:

Mike

I was curious if this opinion was borne from statistics or in the minimum personal experience or is it simply driven by your neo-liberal/Friedman infused view of the role that school's play in society.

Yes it is, the Milwaukee Teachers Education Association. Interestingly, they are, for all that I am aware of, completely separate from WEAC (the Wisconsin Education Association Council), the government school teachers union that covers the rest of the state).

When the MPS board WAS heavy on reformers back in the 1990s, the MTEA stonewalled EVERYTHING that the board tried to do to clean things up and otherwise fix Milwaukee's government schools - to the point where the board essentially gave up.

As it is now, MPS is essentially a cesspool where the top (only?) priority of those in charge is trying to get as many teachers and staff onto the payroll as possible and as much pay and benefits as possible for them (try to get your employer to cover 100% of the cost of your health plan, for example, like MPS has) - everything and everyone else, especially taxpayers, be damned.

:ohno:

Mike

There's more to it than that. Yes, the union leadership has to go. But, the board is completely useless too. The interaction between the two is toxic, and does nothing for the residents of this city. The whole thing needs to be blown up and replaced with several (maybe five?) smaller districts, each with their own board. That would ensure the unique needs of each area of the city were dealt with by (hopefully) education professionals who have less on their plate. That will never happen, unfortunately, because neither the board or union leadership will go for it. They thrive on status-quo. Ask almost any rank and file MPS teacher though, and they'll invariably prefer such a radical solution. Mayoral control wouldn't really solve the underlying problem with the district: the fact that it's too big.

I have a friend that became a young teacher in MPS a few years ago. She really tried to bring some changes to her middle school classrooms that essentially lead to her students being more engaged and less disrespectful in her classes. She was applauded by most of the staff at her school, for having a desire to bring change to the classroom while other senior teachers basically showed up to work every day and collected their large paychecks. My friend now has a Masters degree in teaching, and participated as a voluntary instructor in many of the system's summer programs.

She was let go recently because the union forced the school to cut everyone who had worked at the system for less than 3 years. She had worked in the system for 2 years and 9 months when she lost her position. Some suburb will now be very lucky to have her as a teacher.

Wow. One more reason to hate unions. Teacher's unions are in essence playing games with children's futures by doing things like this...doesn't matter how good you are at teaching, seniority rules. So selfish. Makes me sick.

Trains for the rich or a segregated sewer system (which also primarily the benefits the rich downtown and Shorewood residents)?? I would say dumping much less poop in the lake is in the "public's best interest". I am just wondering....

I don't think you can compare "well-done graffiti" with other art as you suggest. And I agree with you that the subject matter is alarming and off-putting. On the other hand, the eagle and dove with flags mural on the Esperanza Unida building is very nicely done. It has been there a long time and reflects well on the neighborhood. The biological hazmat thing is creepy. So, perhaps it's more about the subject matter than anything.

It should never be a politicians job to decide what is and isn't art and more importantly should not decide what is a good mural and an ugly one.

People in Milwaukee wonder why we have the shittiest public art in the country, but when issues like this come to light, it's obvious why anyone with talent leaves the city to pursue art.

You're absolutely right CGII. Political moves like this make the City look like Hicktown, USA. And sadly, it's representative of the larger mentality at work - one that stifles creativity, questions outside thought, and drives away talent. This is a serious problem that must be fixed if this city ever hopes to become a relevant destination. A thriving creative class makes places worth living in.

a more highly-educated populous might help. there are plenty of good universities and colleges in/near Milwaukee but graduates feel no compulsion to stay here after graduating, as the right jobs for those individuals don't often exist... also, attracting the young and well-educated also means maintaining and building a livable, walkable (not drivable) downtown with proper infrastructure (wide sidewalks, streetscaping, bike lanes) and mass transit.

so, UWM is indeed going to build their school of health at the Pabst site (http://www.jsonline.com/business/99769459.html). while i normally don't like the idea of splitting up a university campus like this, there are exceptions where it works quite well, when you are discussing professional schools and other graduate programs such as law schools and medical schools.

also, i think catalytic tenants like UWM need to exist in the Park East for others to come along and develop in that prime real-esate as well.

General Mitchell International Airport in Milwaukee served 922,984 passengers in June, the most the airport has ever served in one month. The June passenger count at Mitchell was 30 percent higher than the 710,767 passengers served at the airport in June of 2009.
It was the first time the airport had ever exceeded 900,000 passengers in a month. The previous one-month high for the airport was 896,598 passengers in March.
June was the 10th consecutive month of passenger growth for the airport
In the first half of 2010, the Mitchell International served 1,225,221 more passengers, a 34.41 percent increase from the 3,560,224 passengers traveling through the airport during the first half of 2009.
Discount airline AirTran has established a hub at Mitchell and added more routes. Another discount airline, Southwest Airlines, entered the Milwaukee market last year. The discount airlines help attract cost-conscious travelers to Mitchell, including travelers from the Chicago area, where fares are often higher priced.
Republic Airways has also increased service in Milwaukee as it merges Midwest Airlines into Frontier Airlines.
"Mitchell's airlines are adding cities and service at a remarkable pace. And the price is right," said Milwaukee County Executive Scott Walker. "The region's business and leisure travelers are taking advantage of fantastic travel bargains. I often hear from corporations and Visit Milwaukee how important it is to have a robust level of reasonably-priced air service, and I am pleased that our airport has taken off."
"Mitchell's average airfare has dropped to $98 less than at O'Hare (International Airport in Chicago), the biggest quarter-over-quarter drop in the nation at -16.6 percent, and that is certainly creating a strong draw from the hundreds of thousands of travelers who live in the 70 mile area between the two airports,” said Mitchell International Airport director Barry Bateman.
Nationwide growth in passengers was 1.4 percent in June, compared to almost 30 percent at Mitchell, Bateman said. Airports Council International reports that during the 1st quarter of 2010 growth at Mitchell was exceeded worldwide only by airports in Istanbul, Turkey and Phuket, Thailand, and that Mitchell was the only U.S. airport among the top 30 fastest growing airports worldwide, Bateman said.
Newly released U.S. Department of Transportation data for 1st Quarter 2010 show that the average airfare out of Milwaukee dropped lower than the average at 93 other U.S. airports. Mitchell's average fare was $98 less than O'Hare's, $78 less than the nation's average and $17 less than Midway Airport in Chicago, according to Walker.
Now serving 55 markets, Mitchell International Airport has moved up to 28th among U.S. airports in number of markets served nonstop, according to data recently published by the Brookings Institute. Mitchell's rank in a similar 2004 study was 34th.

http://www.biztimes.com/daily/2010/8/5/#june-was-mitchell-internationals-busiest-month-ever

Excellent news. Maybe this will urge airport officials to link the concourses so that they are all accessible without having to leave and re-enter through security.

^^ yeah, i also noted that Mitchell is single fastest growing airport in the US and the 3rd fastest growing airport in the WORLD!

Great News about Mitchell now all we need is a Monorail or Tram system like other major airports and we're all set, oh yeah and the third runway.

Check it out

http://transtats.bts.gov/airports.asp?pn=1&Airport=MKE&Airport_Name=Milwaukee,%20WI:%20General%20Mitchell%20Field&carrier=FACTS


37th largest airport in county, up from 50 or so 18 months ago.

Build the runways and they will come!

Great News about Mitchell now all we need is a Monorail or Tram system like other major airports and we're all set, oh yeah and the third runway.

that's definitely in the works... a while back i posted the airport's expansion plan and it indicated that with the construction of one or two new terminals, a people-mover tram would also be built to move travelers from terminal to terminal. i'd love it if they had an extended tram that ran from the Amtrak airport stop to the terminal buildings, but i don't know if that'll happen. maybe from the KRM stop as those tracks are closer...

I think that before we invest in all the upgrades at Mitchell that we get some guarantees from the airlines that they will continue to us Mitchell as a hub since that is where the huge bump in ridership is coming from. I would hate for Milwaukee to make a huge investment if the airlines are going to cut service, or move the Milwaukee hub in a few years.

i'd love it if they had an extended tram that ran from the Amtrak airport stop to the terminal buildings, but i don't know if that'll happen. maybe from the KRM stop as those tracks are closer...

You're on the wrong track.

KRM isn't going on the tracks along the eastern edge of the airport property...it's going on tracks in downtown Cudahy.

Amtrak's track = about 1 mile west of the airport terminal.

KRM's track = about 2 miles east of airport terminal.

ahh... you're right. actually, i see now that the airport amtrak station would be even closer to where the proposed new terminal(s) would be built, thus making it a logical link-point for a tram/people-mover between the terminals.

also, i posted this in the mitchell thread but it's relevant here too..

from the business journal of milwaukee:

"The elevated passenger counts have allowed Mitchell, which is owned by Milwaukee County, to grow into the 28th-largest airport in the United States..."

this is significant. this makes Mitchell bigger than Cleveland's, Pittsburgh's, St. Louis', Indy's, Cincinnati's, DC's Reagan National and even Chicago's Midway airports!

This is great. I only fly out of Mitchell now because it's finally affordable. I used to only fly O'Hare, which I've always enjoyed because I love airports. But O'Hare is just too busy.

I can see the "streetcar", when it finally runs to the airport, being extended to both train stations.

That should set a few heads ablaze! :)

I've always thought that the Lake Parkway should directly arrive at Mitchell as well as continue southward to Racine. The connector to Mitchell would have to be a tunnel under the runways to join up at the parking structure/departure/arrival area. This can be done, can't it? Dumping traffic onto Layton Ave. seems stupid. Reminds me of San Diego, where you have to drive city streets to get to airport.

I've always thought that the Lake Parkway should directly arrive at Mitchell as well as continue southward to Racine. The connector to Mitchell would have to be a tunnel under the runways to join up at the parking structure/departure/arrival area. This can be done, can't it? Dumping traffic onto Layton Ave. seems stupid. Reminds me of San Diego, where you have to drive city streets to get to airport.

thats what taking I-94 to SR-119(Airport Spur/freeway) is for. So, since we already have this connection via highway, how about a different connection via mass-rail transit?

thats what taking I-94 to SR-119(Airport Spur/freeway) is for. So, since we already have this connection via highway, how about a different connection via mass-rail transit?

Doesn't that exist via Amtrak? Are you suggesting that people would take a light rail from DT to Airport? They won't use rail without 2 suitcases and a brief case - do you think people will haul their luggage, baby seats, strollers, etc.. onto a train to get to an airport? Do you travel?

Doesn't that exist via Amtrak? Are you suggesting that people would take a light rail from DT to Airport? They won't use rail without 2 suitcases and a brief case - do you think people will haul their luggage, baby seats, strollers, etc.. onto a train to get to an airport? Do you travel?

Umm...the better question is, "Do YOU travel?" Of course people would take their luggage on light rail to and from downtown. It happens every day in places like London, Chicago, Minneapolis, Cleveland, etc. It's a valuable connection to have.

Umm...the better question is, "Do YOU travel?" Of course people would take their luggage on light rail to and from downtown. It happens every day in places like London, Chicago, Minneapolis, Cleveland, etc. It's a valuable connection to have.
I'll vouch for that.

Geez, no kidding AJ. I'd take that every time I flew out of Mitchell. Places like Seattle, St Louis, Chicago, and countless others already have this VERY valuable amenity.

Agreed! If the streetcar went all the way to the airport (which I doubt will happen) it would be used quite often!

Actually, most starter light rail lines, such as St. Louis, include the airport as a terminus. It makes the most sense and gets the greater support.

I suppose the current streetcar concept would be too localized to be efficient going that far. Yet, the people living between downtown and Mitchell would propbably like that option. Certainly, it isn't practical to bring luggage on a city bus.

I doubt the new streetcar will go that far. You really want a light rail system that has longer cars to accommodate more travelers.

You can see this concept at work in Portland where they have both light rail and streetcars downtown. The streetcar only serves the downtown as it's smaller and more localized, while light rail travels all the way out to neighborhoods, the convention center, and the airport. I may be mistaken, but I believe Minneapolis' system either already does, or will hit the airport in the next expansion. Don't you wish we were talking about expansion instead of fighting over the value of mass transit? Oh Milwaukee... It's always embarrassing to tell out-of-towners that their only real transit options from Mitchell is your car or a cab.

I doubt the new streetcar will go that far. You really want a light rail system that has longer cars to accommodate more travelers.

You can see this concept at work in Portland where they have both light rail and streetcars downtown. The streetcar only serves the downtown as it's smaller and more localized, while light rail travels all the way out to neighborhoods, the convention center, and the airport. I may be mistaken, but I believe Minneapolis' system either already does, or will hit the airport in the next expansion. Don't you wish we were talking about expansion instead of fighting over the value of mass transit? Oh Milwaukee... It's always embarrassing to tell out-of-towners that their only real transit options from Mitchell is your car or a cab.

Yup, Minneapolis definitely already has light rail going to both terminals at the airport. Here's a video for you...and look, he's got luggage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2qeucPKyUk&feature=related

Milwaukee really needs to step it up a notch.