Hey, everyone. I'm going to be new to the area in Janurary. I've found a couple of places but would like some "insider info" if you care or have the time. The best (I think) is on Franklin Pl. and Warren. Eastside, right? I do not own a car, I bike, walk, have a scooter and take local transit. Getting around is very easy for me, but the weird thing (for me) is moving to a city where I know no one. I've lived in other cities but have always had someone to either mouve with or move in with.

Anyway, I'm excited and hope to hear some suggestions.

p.s. I'm not rich, so any ideas of me moving to some of the highrises on the lake are pretty much out of the question. $750 at the most for 1br.
Welcome to Wisconsin. Look here:

http://www.jsonline.com/rentals/

Cheese hat not included.

Looks can be deceiving.

The buildings at Westlawn (which are 60 years old, by the way, not the 30-40 as you falsely assume) DO have leaking water damage, mold, and foundation issues.

That's in addition to the poor site drainage, outdated electrical systems, ADA access incompatability, and other aforementioned issues.

So no, Westlawn does not just need simple "repairs."

The decline of the state’s largest public housing project (http://www.milwaukeenewsbuzz.com/?p=12275)

Westlawn’s New Deal (http://www.milwaukeenewsbuzz.com/?p=12962)


Ah, I remembered them being built a little later... maybe I'm thinking of when the community was completed? But anyway, my house was built in the mid 50's as well and when I bought it there were most of those problems as well but I didn't tear it down and rebuild... I repaired. ;-)

It's just a difference in the way programs like this work compared to how a private owner would do it. I understand that the project isn't ideal, and I appauld the new program. I just keep thinking there are worse places then this is all.

Resident,
I lived at the intersection of Warren and Franklin for about 5 years (moved down the street five months ago). It's a great location for someone looking to live without a car. You have most every daily need within a quick walk --- under 10 minutes to the grocery store, pharmacies around the corner, etc... Best of all, you have walkable/bikeable access to the Lower Eastside's best amenity, the Lake.

You can still rent a one bedroom here for about $600/month with heat included. Hope you enjoy your new home.

Ah, I remembered them being built a little later... maybe I'm thinking of when the community was completed?

No. Westlawn was completed in 1952.

But anyway, my house was built in the mid 50's as well and when I bought it there were most of those problems as well but I didn't tear it down and rebuild... I repaired. ;-)

It's just a difference in the way programs like this work compared to how a private owner would do it.

You are greatly underestimating the problems at Westlawn.

We're not just talking about leaky windows, or getting rid of asbestos floor tiles, or replacing an old water heater with a more efficient one...we're talking about units that are just plain outdated. Rooms too small. Next to no closet/storage space. Hallways too narrow to navigate a wheelchair. Bathrooms too small to maneuver around. Electrical conduits haphazardly tacked to the exterior walls. The physical layout of the units has a negative, inefficient effect on heat distribution, despite the new, energy efficient heaters that were installed a while back. Foundations and exterior brick walls that leak despite already-installed waterproofing efforts.

How do you repair a house in which the rooms are undersized?

How do you just repair a bathroom where you can't maneuver a wheelchair?

How do you just make a repair to the physical layout of the walls and floors to maximize the efficiency of the heating system?

Those are major issues that are simply beyond repair. They require a whole new building.

Now take those issues and multiply them by 332...and that's just for the eastern section of Westlawn, where the current demolition/reconstruction is taking place. There are another 394 units in the western section which suffer from the same problems, and will be dealt with in the future.

Here is a lot of detailed information about the Westlawn redevelopment project. (http://www.hacm.org/programs/westlawn_hopeVI.htm) It is actually HACM's application for Federal HOPE VI funding, which it subsequently did not receive, but fortunately other funding mechanisms were found. You may especially want to review Exhibit C: Severe Physical Distress of the Public Housing Project to see why demolition and replacement is being pursued instead of just making repairs to the units. Attachments 28 and 29 are conceptual renderings of what the new Westlawn will look like.

I think this is a solid project that will really increase the quality of life in that neighborhood.

Does anyone know if a date has been picked next month for the groundbreaking for the Moderne?

Thanks everyone!

No. Westlawn was completed in 1952.



You are greatly underestimating the problems at Westlawn.

We're not just talking about leaky windows, or getting rid of asbestos floor tiles, or replacing an old water heater with a more efficient one...we're talking about units that are just plain outdated. Rooms too small. Next to no closet/storage space. Hallways too narrow to navigate a wheelchair. Bathrooms too small to maneuver around. Electrical conduits haphazardly tacked to the exterior walls. The physical layout of the units has a negative, inefficient effect on heat distribution, despite the new, energy efficient heaters that were installed a while back. Foundations and exterior brick walls that leak despite already-installed waterproofing efforts.


You forgot to mention the ridiculously steep and narrow stairways.

New King Drive apartment building, food market opening
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel
Oct. 13, 2010 7:00 a.m. |(0) Comments

A new central city apartment building that includes a fresh food market in its street-level commercial space will have its grand opening Wednesday.

The 24-unit building, at 2719 N. King Drive, is the third phase of the King Drive Commons development. The dedication ceremony will be at 10 a.m.

Martin Luther King Economic Development Corp., a non-profit developer, developed the three-story building, which was partly financed with federal affordable housing tax credits. The fresh food market will be operated by Growing Power, an urban farm based at 5500 W. Silver Spring Drive.

King Drive Commons includes an 18-unit apartment building at 2774 N. King Drive, and nine row-house apartments at 2767 N. King Drive.


http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/104797334.html#postComment

Thanks everyone!

Also Craigslist is always a helpful tool to find places. For less than $750/mo for a 1 bdrm you'll have plenty of options stretching from the north side of downtown, all the way up to North Ave. I'd assume you'd want to stay south of North Ave. to avoid the more college geared atmopshere. Then again, maybe i'm wrong.

Interesting.....

Developer plans to convert Loyalty Building into a hotel
Two of downtown Milwaukee’s most revered historic buildings, the 136-year-old Mackie Building at 225 E. Michigan St. and the 124-year-old Loyalty Building at 611 N. Broadway are under contract to be sold to Rosemont, Ill.-based First Hospitality Group Inc., which plans to convert the Loyalty Building into a hotel, according to sources. The Mackie Building would still be used for office space, but the Grain Exchange Room in the building would provide meeting and banquet space for the hotel in the Loyalty Building.
A representative for First Hospitality Group could not be reached for comment.
The buildings were purchased in 2006 by Los Angeles-based Stonewater Partners, which also acquired the adjacent historic Mitchell Building in the deal. David Stade of Stonewater Partners declined to comment for this story.
“We just don’t comment on our properties one way or the other,” he said.
The 6-story, 91,996-square-foot Loyalty Building features a huge atrium, with office space around it. The layout could make the building a fit for a hotel use. The building currently has a large amount of vacant office space. Its most notable tenant is Emory & Co. LLC. The building has an assessed value of $2.007 million, according to city records. It was originally the site of the corporate headquarters for Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Co.
The 5-story, 45,975-square-foot Mackie Building is perhaps best known for the Grain Exchange Room, an ornately designed 9,200-square-foot banquet room that was originally used for grain commodity trading and was restored in 1983. The anchor tenant in the building is the law firm of Gonzalez Saggio & Harlan LLP. The Daily Reporter construction newspaper also has its offices in the building. The building has an assessed value of $989,000, according to city records.
The two buildings were listed together for sale by Siegel-Gallagher with an asking price of $4.085 million.
Both of the buildings are on the National Register of Historic Places.
One reason the buildings have struggled to attract office tenants is a lack of available parking in the area, sources say. A hotel would require fewer parking spaces than an office building.

Link: http://www.biztimes.com/realestateweekly/2010/10/13/

Sounds like it could work for an Embassy Suites.

Two of downtown Milwaukee’s most revered historic buildings, the 136-year-old Mackie Building at 225 E. Michigan St. and the 124-year-old Loyalty Building at 611 N. Broadway are under contract to be sold...to convert the Loyalty Building into a hotel... The Mackie Building would still be used for office space...
Both of the buildings are on the National Register of Historic Places.

The buildings:

Mackie:
Photograph taken by Dori, from commons.wikimedia.org
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Milwaukee_Wisconsin_6665.jpg/400px-Milwaukee_Wisconsin_6665.jpg

Loyalty:
By smiley518 All Rights Reserved
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3274/2983595380_0a06e11e6f_z.jpg

Sounds like it could work for an Embassy Suites.

I would think it would be much more of a signature hotel... something really upscale (if they play their cards right), that could compete toe-to-toe with the Pfister. Anything short of a high end hotel would be a waste of a beautiful building.

How is there not enough parking...there's an adjacent surface lot, one across the street and a structure next to that...

Anyways, this would be great for the development of Broadway in conjunction with the street car. Hopefully it'll happen.

I would think it would be much more of a signature hotel... something really upscale (if they play their cards right), that could compete toe-to-toe with the Pfister. Anything short of a high end hotel would be a waste of a beautiful building.

Well I completely agree with that sentiment, my comment was more to the point that Embassy Suites has been rumored off and on for downtown for years, and that it has an atrium. Completely agree that it should be something more swank than that though.

Does anyone know if a date has been picked next month for the groundbreaking for the Moderne?
That would be nice to know.

Even though it doesn't really matter and either building would make a great hotel, the Mackie seems more "hotelish" in architecture compared to the Loyalty.

@j-hah That is interesting, I didn't know anything about the Loyalty building, that sounds like it could be a pretty cool hotel with the atrium in the middle. No idea NML started there. As beautiful as these two buildings are, I can't believe their assessed values...does that not sound insanely cheap for how nice they are? Especially the Mackie building...under $1mil?? I never would've have guessed anything near that, but what do I know. Also a couple other interesting stories in that same article regarding the new airport hotels and the Wisconsin Ave. site with the historic buildings.

@j-hah That is interesting, I didn't know anything about the Loyalty building, that sounds like it could be a pretty cool hotel with the atrium in the middle. No idea NML started there. As beautiful as these two buildings are, I can't believe their assessed values...does that not sound insanely cheap for how nice they are? Especially the Mackie building...under $1mil?? I never would've have guessed anything near that, but what do I know. Also a couple other interesting stories in that same article regarding the new airport hotels and the Wisconsin Ave. site with the historic buildings.

I know... now a days even a small Starbucks has an assessed value of almost $1,000,000. That is extremely cheap.

Under one million blew my mind! Maybe the buildings are falling apart and in dire need of structural rehab...

Seriously, at that price I want to put a bid in myself

Assessments for commercial buildings are based on the Net Operating Income of a building (which is correlated to rents charged and occupancy). The Loyalty has really cheap rents and a high vacancy, thus a low assessment.

TIGER II announcements coming this week. Some awardees have already been leaked (http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2010/oct/18/route-34-replacement-to-unite-downtown-new-haven/) as of last Friday. Expect an announcement tomorrow or Wednesday for Tiger II funding.
Let's keep our collective fingers crossed for the Milwaukee streetcar extension!

TIGER II announcements coming this week. Some awardees have already been leaked (http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2010/oct/18/route-34-replacement-to-unite-downtown-new-haven/) as of last Friday. Expect an announcement tomorrow or Wednesday for Tiger II funding.
Let's keep our collective fingers crossed for the Milwaukee streetcar extension!


MilwaukeeMax, unfortunately Milwaukee City Government has been very silent on Streetcar development as the Mayor runs one of the most disappointing campaigns I've ever seen. Apparently, city officials fear and have no answer to Sykes, Wagner, Belling, Weber, and McKenna's weekly rants on how Choo-Choo trains have failed everywhere else. I can't believe people listen to those idiots!

To the best of my knowledge, the city has never published anything on how a light rail or streetcar system could benefit development downtown and help this region economically. Until they do, nothing will be built.

In addition to being silent, the city still hasn't started construction on the first phase (I believe that's one of the reasons the city was rejected the last time?). Now, the city wants federal funds awarded for the second phase; it won't happen! No leadership in this city!

He (Barrett) is definitely qualified to destroy the development momentum created by former Mayor Norquist and take us to #4 in Poverty of all Big US Cities.

When he loses the governor's race and stay Milwaukee Mayor . . . . . we will challenge for the #2 spot; can't see us passing Detroit, hmmmmm!

This city is probably #1 in being the most dysfunctional, especially with all its potential; all being wasted.

Meanwhile, a city once much smaller than Milwaukee and has stolen two pro sports franchises from us is also getting some TIGER II funds . . . . . . .

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2010/10/11/daily50.html

^^

3rd Coast, obviously you have some frustrations with Mayor Barrett's leadership.

That aside, you should know that the Streetcar Project is moving ahead, and is certainly not dead in the water. The city DPW put out an RFI in August, and responses were due by September 24th. You can see the document here:

http://www.milwaukee.gov/ImageLibrary/Groups/cityDPW/general/docs/100823StreetcarRFI.pdf

In addition, the attempt to garner federal money for the second phase of the project is not part of the Tiger II granting process. The city is attempting to get that appropriated by our congressional representatives. The city's application for a Tiger II grant is applying for money to help fund the extensions the city wants as part of the first phase.

Also, I think that my friend who is working on the consultant team for the streetcar would be surprised to hear that the plans he is helping to take from Preliminary to Final Engineering do not qualify as work being done on the streetcar. I think you have a terrible misunderstanding of how construction works. Given the incredibly complicated utility situation underneath many of the roads in downtown, this is not some cookie-cutter, slapstick design where they can simply just start sawcutting the pavement tomorrow. Utility relocations in preparation for full construction are scheduled to begin late this fall. Don't forget about the decades old bridge on the route that needs to be redesigned and either rebuilt or retrofitted to handle the weight of these vehicles.

I to wish that there was more of a push from the city regarding the Streetcar, but the election cycle makes that difficult to do right now. It would likely get lost in the shuffle...not to mention, operation is still a few years out. In the mean time, perhaps you should see this website: http://www.themilwaukeestreetcar.com/ for information from the city about how the streetcar will improve downtown and encourage development.

Apparently, city officials fear and have no answer to Sykes, Wagner, Belling, Weber, and McKenna's weekly rants on how Choo-Choo trains have failed everywhere else. I can't believe people listen to those idiots!

Oh no!! I listen to them, which makes me an idiot, too! Now my opinion isn't valid :( I just can't help it...it's hard for people like me who can't think for themselves. :nuts:


..I'm a person who loves development but am not super keen on trains. Paradox? Go ahead and judge me!

@3rd_Coast Just because you haven't seen something in the press recently on the streetcar doesn't mean it isn't being worked on, it is. As posted earlier they launched the website, the RFI went out, and engineering is underway.

[QUOTE=MarqKev;65582445]^^

That aside, you should know that the Streetcar Project is moving ahead, and is certainly not dead in the water. The city DPW put out an RFI in August, and responses were due by September 24th.

QUOTE]

Thanks MarqKev

Oh no!! I listen to them, which makes me an idiot, too! Now my opinion isn't valid :( I just can't help it...it's hard for people like me who can't think for themselves. :nuts:


..I'm a person who loves development but am not super keen on trains. Paradox? Go ahead and judge me!

I also listen too on occassion but, only for entertainment while driving home in rush hour traffic.

@3rd_Coast Just because you haven't seen something in the press recently on the streetcar doesn't mean it isn't being worked on, it is. As posted earlier they launched the website, the RFI went out, and engineering is underway.

OK . . . better get it going quickly. When Gov Walker takes office he vowed to kill the HSR in Wisconsin. If he's successful, I predict followers of Belling & Sykes will encourage Gov Walker to kill the Milwaukee Streetcar.

Tom Bamberger (Milwaukee Magazine) lays out a case against trains (don't think he is a right winger, but I am sure he will be blamed for it). I can't find a link to his recent article, but if you can find Milwaukee Mag, you should be able to read it.

Endgame Is rail transit the future of transportation or a useless relic from the past? by Tom Bamberger
http://www.milwaukeemagazine.com/currentIssue/

Here is a link to him discussing the issue.
http://www.wuwm.com/programs/lake_effect/view_le.php?articleid=1086

usbmfa: you seem to always be looking to find some article, no matter how obscure, to justify your opinion against rail on here, even if the article was written by an art photographer with little to no background in urban planning or engineering.
Anybody who labels rail as an "archaic" form of transit is a hypocrite if they don't view automobiles in the same way. Sure, rail was around 100 years ago but so too were cars. People have been flying airplanes since 1903... Oh, so that must make air travel OLD technology, right?

As an outsider - it amazes me how there seems to be these "bi-polar" type attitudes about transit and its relationship to development in Milwaukee. With the density there - it sure seems like a good streetcar network would be successful and would help with continued development and densification in the central core. There are so many people that understand how beneficial it would be for the city -- and then I am surprised to hear these anti rail folks on here who seem so opposite from the others. It seems all the more strange when you consider the overall cost, which isn't that big compared to all of the road projects.

Somehow the big "Zoo" project got funded - and other major roadway projects continue to be discussed without too much back-lash (Hoan Bridge?) - yet from hearing some of these anti rail people talk, you'd think spending $150 million or so (much of it federal dollars) is going to be the end-all for Milwaukee. Crazy.

Likewise - the anti HSR stuff is surprising. Wisconsin was such a progressive leader in getting the Midwest HSR plans together -- and now all of a sudden these back wood conservatives seem to be pulling the whole thing down. It just seems strange. There seems to be a real lack of an ability to get the two sides to work together on important projects for Milwaukee. Maybe that's what I've been reading about when people complain about the lack of good, strong local leadership. The lack of good leadership seems pretty evident from an outsiders "30,000 foot" view. It may have to do with the conflicts relating to having County officials with their priorities and City officials with their priorities. I can see how that would make for some real difficulties in making unified progress.

This probably isn't anything new for you local folks -- but its just a comment that seems to have increasing relevance from an outside perspective.

What's also interesting is a lot of them, myself included, aren't "backwoods conservatives," but live right here in the city (I on the East Side), and had no real say in Wisconsin being so progressive in getting HSR. Like most things, stuff gets handled at the capital, ours is liberal, and none of us like calling trains "political" but anything involving money becomes political. So, Madison wants the train, so does a good portion of the city of Milwaukee, but many others do not want it.

here's a link to a recent poll, take it for what you will:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/105196189.html

Note the second-to-last paragraph.

Different opinions on how to spend money, it's not something I'm going to apologize for or someone else has to get mad about, just strong opinions on both sides is what it comes down to. Both have valid arguments.

Personally, I am in favor of rail, streetcars, and other forms of public transportation, but there has to be a way to pay for it and prove its sustainability. Remember that federal dollars still come from all of our pockets, as well. The train is a very touchy subject because you have people all over the state and country that would pay for and subsidize its usage that would see no direct (or possibly indirect) benefit of it. I admittedly have not done a great deal of research on the subject and most of what I know I have gotten from these boards (thanks to all), but it seems to me like the cost vs. benefit of "High Speed" rail between Madison and Milwaukee is non-existent. I know there needs to be a catalyst project somewhere that gets the initiative moving if we truly want HSR throughout WI and the upper Midwest, but I question its financial sustainability and usage it would actually receive. I'm guessing a lot of the train ridership would come from those that currently take the bus.

As for streetcars, I am much more in favor of them. Streetcars benefit local municipalities and, as a result, I think they should be funded through their budget. Milwaukee definitely has the population and density to make a street car system work if done correctly.

Oliver: I'm with you on the notion that the priority should be that Milwaukee gets streetcars/LRT/commuter rail before everything else on the table, but the fact is that the HSR project jumped up the ladder when this grant money came in at the beginning of the year. There is no comparing busses to rail as busses will always be slower, especially when you're talking about intraurban traffic-- where a rider would have to wait for a bus to stop at every bus-stop and, on top of that, contend with rush hour traffic as well, weaving in and out of the street. Rail provides permanence busses never will be able to replicate. Rail = right of way and that's fundamental to a useful mass transit system. It also provides a smoother ride and a concrete path of the transit system for users to recognize. This is the reason rail will always be far superior to busses.
Still, I think the priority of these projects OUGHT to be, in this order:

1. Milwaukee Streetcar
2. KRM Commuter train
3. HSR (true 220mph service) between CHI and MKE
4. HSR (ibid) between MKE and MSN

Having said that, all these systems are important in their own way and people need to understand that the point of transit is not to make money-- indeed, roads don't pay for themselves and, as cars become more and more fuel efficient, highway funding gets less and less as well. Libertarians, Tea Party nutjobs, whomever it is-- they need to get it through their skulls that TRANSPORTATION OF ALL KINDS IS NOT SELF-SUSTAINING. We don't expect schools to pay for themselves. We don't demand fire departments and police departments to pay for themselves. This is the same with roads and rail and airports. They benefit all of us to varying degrees (even if you don't seem to notice it), and these public goods ought to be supported with public dollars.

I ride my bicycle every day but my taxes help pay for your stinkin' roads that you drive around on all the time. I'm paying for your kids to go to school. I'm paying for you to be protected from fire and crime. Do I benefit from these things directly? Not directly, perhaps, but I benefit as society benefits collectively by the fact that you are able to get to work, that your children are learning and will be employed and productive, that your house is not burning, that you are safe.
When did we become such selfish people as a nation that we don't understand that just because we personally don't use a public service that it automatically is a 'boondoggle' and a waste of money?

3rd Coast, if you are looking for someone to blame regarding the streetcar, don't blame Barrett. Blame Doyle who shot down an RTA that could have provided the necessary local funding for the streetcar. Look at any other city that has received streetcar funding over the past few years, what do they have in common? They have a dedicated funding source for transit. Doyle had an RTA on his desk and he didn't sign it. The result? The loss of significant federal dollars that would have benefited Milwaukee and the continued decline of Milwaukee's bus system. Probably Doyle's biggest mistake, in my opinion.

I read the article, and picked up on the same thing. It doesn't strike me as constructive to suggest that when something was invented has a bearing on whether it gets implemented. After all, how old are bridges? How old are roads? A person can make cases for and against rail, but in my mind, when it was invented is not relevent.


Anybody who labels rail as an "archaic" form of transit is a hypocrite if they don't view automobiles in the same way. Sure, rail was around 100 years ago but so too were cars. People have been flying airplanes since 1903... Oh, so that must make air travel OLD technology, right?

usbmfa: you seem to always be looking to find some article, no matter how obscure, to justify your opinion against rail on here, even if the article was written by an art photographer with little to no background in urban planning or engineering.
Anybody who labels rail as an "archaic" form of transit is a hypocrite if they don't view automobiles in the same way. Sure, rail was around 100 years ago but so too were cars. People have been flying airplanes since 1903... Oh, so that must make air travel OLD technology, right?

You seem more concerned about attacking any source that does not support rail proposals, versus defending those proposals. Why do you care about so much about rail any way, if you ride your bike on those roads you always complain about. I guess those bike shorts are cold in winter.

OK, no transit system is self funding, so the next step on the decision ladder, is which system provides the most benefit at the least cost. Highways and cars tend be the best fit for most cities. When cities do chose rail, they are locked in for decades to those choices, and those systems require massive infrastructure builds. Buses are cheap and flexible, but slow. For a small, flat broke a city/county like milwaukee, it works. I really don't care much about the milwaukee streetcar proposal either way (unlike the irritating waste of time and money that is the madison/mke so called hsr line, which could be killed soon anyways). If the case can be made that milwaukee streetcar is cost neutral to buses, than i say let our local idiot leaders pick whatever floats their boat. I think it at least adds some balance around here, though, to make the case against it.

People will always chose individualized transport over mass transit anyways. Cars are trending to be more effecient, more automated, and safer, which means people will be chosing the car over the choochoo or bus for a long time to come, and will continue wanting ever more roads.

OK, no transit system is self funding, so the next step on the decision ladder, is which system provides the most benefit at the least cost. Highways and cars tend be the best fit for most cities.

Don't confuse popularity with efficiency, under what criteria are highways and cars the 'best fit'? Does that mean they have to be the only fit?

When cities do chose rail, they are locked in for decades to those choices, and those systems require massive infrastructure builds. Buses are cheap and flexible, but slow.

Those are the exact reasons why development follows freeways and rail lines but generally disregard a bus route.

For a small, flat broke a city/county like milwaukee, it works. I really don't care much about the milwaukee streetcar proposal either way (unlike the irritating waste of time and money that is the madison/mke so called hsr line, which could be killed soon anyways). If the case can be made that milwaukee streetcar is cost neutral to buses, than i say let our local idiot leaders pick whatever floats their boat. I think it at least adds some balance around here, though, to make the case against it.

I'm sure the DOT will get on this cost breakdown right after they finish one for expanding I-94 from 3 to 4 lanes.

People will always chose individualized transport over mass transit anyways. Cars are trending to be more effecient, more automated, and safer, which means people will be chosing the car over the choochoo or bus for a long time to come, and will continue wanting ever more roads.

People's choices don't exist in a vacuum. I don't think you can start to see people's preferences until they're paying for their options with their own money. As for many people choosing cars... well gosh that's what free choice is all about, but don't expect that to be the only choice.

That is the problem, you're trying to limit my choices while asking for a government handout for what you think is best. Until you can pay your own way without asking for a property tax handout, you sound like a dead-beat asking for more... roads.

I just wish people in Wisconsin would understand that the HSR isn't about just the Milwaukee to Madison route. Linking a 1.7 million or so metro with a smaller city (600,000 or so) the two of which are about 100 miles apart, is not what the real HSR effort is about. It is about linking Chicago to Milwaukee to Madison to the Twin Cities.

Now you are talking about a real market of a good 16 million people - including linking in with one of the world's major business centers. People need to look at the bigger picture. They should also realize that the population from the Wisconsin stops along the route are what? maybe 3 million? The other 13 million people are from other states - primarily MN and IL. Also - with the ultimate buildout of links throughout the Midwest through Chicago - there will be millions of additional people traveling over the route as well - traveling from places like Detroit to Madison or Indianapolis to Minneapolis.

Some of the "leaders" up there in Wisconsin are trying to stop the state from receiving these 100% federal construction dollars because they don't think Wisconsin can afford the operating costs. Since Wisconsin only represents about 18% of the ridership on the route - it should only have to pay a similar percentage of the oeprating costs. MN and IL should pay a big chunk of it - and perhaps some additional funds could also come from some type of shared pool of funds from other Midwest states. (Other routes would also get some of these "pool" funds.) I wish some one up there would use their brain on this subject and not just stick their head in a hole and hide from these HSR funds. If somehow Wisconsin has to turn this $800 million federal grant back - and it goes to another state - that plan will have to go down as one of the all time dumbest governent ideas ever! (or should I say dumbest "Governor's" ideas ever - considering who is behind the idea if he becomes Governor.) It'll be sad, but ultimately I'll probably just have to laugh at the stupidity of the person who would make such a decision to give the money back.

I am very torn between the $800M federal grant. The ideological side of me says that as a nation we don't have $800M to spend on a 100 mile rail line, regardless. I know the argument is that if we don't spend it somebody else will, but does that mean it is really the right thing to do?

As for MilwaukeeMax's statement of There is no comparing busses to rail as busses will always be slower, I think this is debatable. The Badger Bus lines leave from multiple locations in Madison and arrive in multiple locations in Milwaukee. The price is roughly $20 and the time is about 2 hours. I have a hard time believing a "HSR" of 70mph or will be much quicker considering the multiple stops or more cost efficient. Yes, there is something to be said for the possible development along the rail line, but for $800M is this gamble worth it? My biggest fear is not the cost of the maintenance, but if the true initiative is to connect Madison to Minneapolis, that is going to be x times more expensive to build and maintain. And then when we want true HSR in 10 years the tracks may have to be redone. I would love additional transportation options throughout the state, especially up here in GB, but I'm not sure we have the immediate need for it.

I ride my bicycle every day but my taxes help pay for your stinkin' roads that you drive around on all the time. I'm paying for your kids to go to school. I'm paying for you to be protected from fire and crime. Do I benefit from these things directly? Not directly, perhaps, but I benefit as society benefits collectively by the fact that you are able to get to work, that your children are learning and will be employed and productive, that your house is not burning, that you are safe.
When did we become such selfish people as a nation that we don't understand that just because we personally don't use a public service that it automatically is a 'boondoggle' and a waste of money?

Probably one of the better arguments I've heard concerning HSR/Streetcar/Etc. It takes collectiveness as a society to make it work, I couldn't care less about the I-94 expansion, the Zoo redesign and I really ******* wish they would just tear the Hoan down, but yet I personally contribute to this and especially with the first two...there's been hardly any backlash for these projects. I understand we need roadways, but we also need and integrated transit system. Roadways, busses and trains have to work in conjunction to be really effective. If Milwaukee continues to burry it's head in the sand on these transit opportunities, I'm moving to Portland...

And @ usmbfa

I don't see how you can say automobiles are any more efficient or safer than trains. I'd much rather not deal with traffic if I want to travel to Waukesha or Chicago (hypothetical commuter line intended). Also it's ludacris to think trains aren't safer, I remember a paper I wrote a few years ago about needing more transit options in the Milwaukee Metro area and the numbers I was finding for auto related deaths vs. train related deaths were rediculous. I don't remember them exactly (I could find the paper if you want to argue) but trains had maybe 2 or 3 percent of the deaths that autos did.

I'd suggest anyone trying to make an argument against the high speed rail on this board consider refraining from the phrase "choochoo." It makes you sound like a talk-radio-show-listening-clown. Want to be taken seriously, then engage in adult conversation.

What kills me about opponents is their general inability to see the benefits of multi-modal transportation. We need comprehensive transit of all kinds --- which are ALL subsidized one way or another. It's not about one or the other. It's about all working in concert to provide varied means of connectivity.

I agree with the above comment about Doyle's mistake in not signing on to an RTA. Big missed opportunity, and a detriment to future mass transit initiatives. But what's new in WI? We are truly the backwater of transit.

I think there's a lot of us in WI who would feel completely disgusted and betrayed if that $820 million was given to another state. We have to make a choice now and those of you on here who are in support of rail transit in Wisconsin and Milwaukee, PLEASE remember to vote. You can vote early or you can vote at your local district polling location on Nov 2. Just please please please vote (and I think you know for whom you ought to vote).

I've often been baffled by rail opponents' inability to see the benefits of multimodal transportation, but I've always sort of conceded that they were just stubborn people who needed to be proven wrong. Once the system was in place (ala the Hiawatha line between MKE and CHI), there could be no arguing that it was popular and a useful investment. Rail opponents will have to eat their own words when they see how many people use the streetcars, commuter rail and HSR. Personally, I think they should be put to some public shame, like having to walk the tracks with their pants down around their ankles, but there are laws against unusual punishment apparently.
Still, it is completely irresponsible of these people who have almost no understanding of urban planning or engineering to be making statements like "nobody will ride this train". Such delusions! Maybe you're the ones sniffing something!

Also, Oliver, the HSR line will travel at up to 110mph and with the Oconomowoc stop gone, it will get you door to door from MKE to MSN even faster.
Another thing people don't get is that yes, right now there isn't much traffic in Madison and there is plenty of parking, but that city is growing quite healthily and in the long run, parking won't be so easy in Madison and getting in and out of the city on I-94 won't be so easy either as traffic increases. We need to stop thinking so myopically and look to what is the best long term balance of transit options in our region.

I'd suggest anyone trying to make an argument against the high speed rail on this board consider refraining from the phrase "choochoo." It makes you sound like a talk-radio-show-listening-clown. Want to be taken seriously, then engage in adult conversation.

What kills me about opponents is their general inability to see the benefits of multi-modal transportation. We need comprehensive transit of all kinds --- which are ALL subsidized one way or another. It's not about one or the other. It's about all working in concert to provide varied means of connectivity.

I agree with the above comment about Doyle's mistake in not signing on to an RTA. Big missed opportunity, and a detriment to future mass transit initiatives. But what's new in WI? We are truly the backwater of transit.

I know it doesn't sound right calling this mode of transportation a "choo choo," but what should we call it? It most certainly is not "high speed," as it was originally cast. At a top speed of 70 mph and a few stops, it is faster to take the Badger Bus -- and much less expensive. And, regarding development along the route, just look at the Amtrak stop in Sturtevant as an example -- there's nothing there.

As for your comment about opponents of the train being unable to comprehend the benefits of multi-modal transportation, it's not about whether this is a good idea, it's about PAYING FOR IT. Proponents of this train need to have a basic understanding of economics and the free market system. At some point this train may be a good idea, but now is not the time. As for "losing out" on the $800 million pork from the government (actually, from the taxpayers), I am perfectly fine with another state getting this "free" money. Whomever gets this tainted stash will end up having to ultimately match the price tag in order to build something with it, meaning higher taxes. And, the proposed Milwaukee to Madison track is something very, very, very, very, very few people will ever ride.

Very bad news. Looks like Wisconsin got entirely passed over for TIGER II funds.

At a top speed of 70 mph and a few stops, it is faster to take the Badger Bus --
The top speed will be 110mph


Whomever gets this tainted stash will end up having to ultimately match the price tag, meaning higher taxes for something very, very, very, very, very few people will ever ride.

the DOT has been covering 90% of operational costs, which means that the state of Wisconsin will only have to pay about $725,000 a year to run this train.
Do the math and that's about 13 cents per person per year-- or a little over a penny a month to pay for for this line. Ummm... you think we can't afford that as a state??

Why does Milwaukee always always always seem to get passed up for federal transit funding?? UGH! This is the third attempt to get the extension to the streetcar project and while other states get money for their streetcars, Milwaukee is constantly passed over.


:mad2:

it's SO FRUSTRATING!

Why does Milwaukee always always always seem to get passed up for federal transit funding?? UGH! This is the third attempt to get the extension to the streetcar project and while other states get money for their streetcars, Milwaukee is constantly passed over.


:mad2:

it's SO FRUSTRATING!

I'm frustrated too, but as a fed pencil pusher I would look at the huge transit grant that has been sitting unused for decades and say, even if we give it to them, they won't use it.

Whoever is the mayor in January needs to get this project done. I believe it will make a huge difference for the city and further expand the connectivity of HSR beyond the Downtown station.

I'm frustrated too, but as a fed pencil pusher I would look at the huge transit grant that has been sitting unused for decades and say, even if we give it to them, they won't use it.

Whoever is the mayor in January needs to get this project done. I believe it will make a huge difference for the city and further expand the connectivity of HSR beyond the Downtown station.

but that's not the city's fault... why punish the city for the ineptitude of the suburbanites? it's such b.s. -- i'm so sick and tired of our federal dollars going to other cities for projects like this and Milwaukee is perpetually getting screwed. if Walker is elected and gives the HSR money back, that will just take the cake. we'd might as well just secede from the nation, since we're not getting any benefit from it anyway.

I'd suggest anyone trying to make an argument against the high speed rail on this board consider refraining from the phrase "choochoo." It makes you sound like a talk-radio-show-listening-clown. Want to be taken seriously, then engage in adult conversation.
I'm still trying to figure out what that phrase is alluding to....

:nuts:

AND, yes, I am an ever skeptic - I do know that such service would be of at least some immediate use and that it is likely long-term necessary, but I am also conscious of the massive cost of the Madison line - from what I gather from others in the railfan forvms that I follow several lengthy sections of the part between Waterloo and Sun Prairie will literally have to have their entire roadbeds dug out and replaced with bridging.

The estimates that I have seen have the Green Bay line coming in at a far, far lower startup cost.

:eek:

Mike

but that's not the city's fault... why punish the city for the ineptitude of the suburbanites? it's such b.s. -- i'm so sick and tired of our federal dollars going to other cities for projects like this and Milwaukee is perpetually getting screwed. if Walker is elected and gives the HSR money back, that will just take the cake. we'd might as well just secede from the nation, since we're not getting any benefit from it anyway.

Haha, I know what you mean. It's only been lately after the feds split the last pot of money between the county and city that Milwaukee could really do anything with it.

I know the gears are moving forward with the streetcar but I would like to see there be more publicity and a higher profile for it. Even if it's only utility relocations that will be happening soon, I would like to see that announced.

People like to support a winner and sit on the sidelines when something is proposed. However, to actually see and hear that some work has started would bring more supporters/more pressure to get it done and speed the build out.

It's a shame we got passed on the TIGER II grant, but can you blame them?! Millions squandered over many many years and no dedicated funding source (RTA). I would have given us the finger too. The City has proved inept at getting anything done.

The good news is this certainly doesn't halt the project, it just slows any near-term expansion. I agree with Jesse276, it sure would be nice to see some occasional updates and press on what's happening right now. Maybe they're purposefully laying low until the ugly, anti-everything atmosphere shifts to a more positive one?

i agree... it's probably in their best interest just to work on this quietly until it's finished. by the look of all the insane comments on the JS post (when Larry Sandler finally got around to releasing the news about TIGER II today), the people who regurgitate rightwing radio won't understand the benefit of such a system until it's proven. They don't need to be included-- but I agree, it would be nice for those of us who have a strong interest in seeing the progress of this project to hear what's going on from time to time, even if it was on a closed forum and we're sworn to secrecy...

The Milwaukee Streetcar really does need that extension to work. If Gwen Moore doesn't secure the extra $87 million for an extension up to UWM's campus, it's not going to be a very useful line at all. I think the city knows that and that's why they keep applying for these grants for the extension but WHY the f they keep getting shot down is beyond me. Again, punishing the city for the obstinance of the suburbanites and the idiocy of Doyle (for not funding the RTA) is just incredibly unfair.

... several lengthy sections of the part between Waterloo and Sun Prairie will literally have to have their entire roadbeds dug out and replaced with bridging.

Mike

This is actually one of the biggest (yet least advertised) benefits of this project. Freight trains that use the section of track between Watertown and Madison now take about 4 hours to deliver their cargo. After the track upgrades are done, this time will be reduced to less than 1 hour.

Without being an economist I imagine this improved service to the region's industry may even trump the benefits to Madison's commuter transportation environment.

Why does Milwaukee always always always seem to get passed up for federal transit funding?? UGH! This is the third attempt to get the extension to the streetcar project and while other states get money for their streetcars, Milwaukee is constantly passed over.


:mad2:

it's SO FRUSTRATING!

Why would the government hand out money for an extension when there is no visible progress on a starter system? I don't think this should be surprising.

I cannot believe Wisconsin is threatening to give back an $800 million grant for a little ongoing maintenance money. The return on investment of the piddly amount the state puts in for what it gets in jobs and infrastructure is astronomical. I guess Wisconsin is on the fence of whether they want to get started on a project that would get them from Milwaukee to Chicago or the Twin cities quickly without the hassle of driving or flying.

It is not like all forms of transportation aren't subsidized.

If Wisconsin gives it back, Maryland will gladly take it. Taking the train where I can work on my laptop to Washington instead of dealing with road traffic makes me so much more productive. I would love a third rail line here in MD-DC, which would allow more capacity (our trains are full)and higher speeds.

^^^ people in Michigan, people in Illinois, Florida, Maryland-- they're all saying how stupid Wisconsin would be to give back this grant $.

Do you anti rail people get it yet? Do you see how incredibly ignorant Scott Walker's idea is? We'll be the laughing stock of the Nation.

The top speed will be 110mph

the DOT has been covering 90% of operational costs, which means that the state of Wisconsin will only have to pay about $725,000 a year to run this train.
Do the math and that's about 13 cents per person per year-- or a little over a penny a month to pay for for this line. Ummm... you think we can't afford that as a state??

Yes, 110 mph is the top speed, but with stops in between, the average would be about 70 -- or the same speed as via auto and bus...and a lot more expensive than Badger Bus, and a lot less convenient than auto (or bus). Do you honestly believe that the train would ever top out at 110 given speed restrictions through the different municipalities?

As for your cost figures, they look good, but none of it is remotely believable. For starters, where does the DOT get its funding? Our taxes. How can you separate the DOT from the state of Wisconsin? While the entities may have different names, they both require our tax dollars to exist. If you're that positive about your numbers, how much would you be willing to bet that they hold up?

^^^ people in Michigan, people in Illinois, Florida, Maryland-- they're all saying how stupid Wisconsin would be to give back this grant $.

Do you anti rail people get it yet? Do you see how incredibly ignorant Scott Walker's idea is? We'll be the laughing stock of the Nation.

Yours is a biased judgment because you like the idea of a train. You could easily find at least as many people in those states saying how smart Wisconsin is to rid itself of money with expensive, never-ending strings attached. Don't take this so personally. It's just business, proper and contientious business. Now, do you see how mature and incredibly correct Scott Walker's idea is?

we'd might as well just secede from the nation, since we're not getting any benefit from it anyway.

We might as well... Wisconsin only gets back 86 cents per dollar sent to the feds in taxes back in fed dollars spent here. So we receive back less then we pay. We've historically been in the top 10 worst states for this.

Max, your hatred for democracy and open government makes kittens cry! :cry:


Anyway, it is disappointing because those extensions are the piece that will actually make this streetcar system useful!

but that's not the city's fault... why punish the city for the ineptitude of the suburbanites? it's such b.s. -- i'm so sick and tired of our federal dollars going to other cities for projects like this and Milwaukee is perpetually getting screwed. if Walker is elected and gives the HSR money back, that will just take the cake. we'd might as well just secede from the nation, since we're not getting any benefit from it anyway.

The city is just as much at fault as anyone else in this. This project has been 100% political from the start- a really bad way to build transit. A prestige project that won't really improve mobility for the majority of people is a really bad use for $100 million in a city with huge mobility issues. Streetcar technology is great, but that shouldn't be why we build it. We should rank where there's the greatest need for transit investment and then find the technology that fits that. And I'm pretty certain that a downtown circulator would rank about as high on that as exurban freeway interchanges...

Instead of going amok on the Feds and blaming Waukesha County, I think these two funding rejections should be a really good excuse to thoroughly examine what's wrong with what the city's doing and how to fix that.

Yes, 110 mph is the top speed, but with stops in between, the average would be about 70 -- or the same speed as via auto and bus...and a lot more expensive than Badger Bus, and a lot less convenient than auto (or bus). Do you honestly believe that the train would ever top out at 110 given speed restrictions through the different municipalities?

As for your cost figures, they look good, but none of it is remotely believable. For starters, where does the DOT get its funding? Our taxes. How can you separate the DOT from the state of Wisconsin? While the entities may have different names, they both require our tax dollars to exist. If you're that positive about your numbers, how much would you be willing to bet that they hold up?

Amen. Max, you can't look at the dollar amount that the state will have to cover after DOT's subsidy. That number is arbitrary, because the state and DOT still have to cover the larger amount as a whole, and the bottom line is it all comes out of tax dollars, spread to every person in the state. That may not be that much per person in the state, but added together, why spend those millions on a trade subsidy when we are already in financial ruin? Why not focus on getting back out of debt first? Our financial situation one thing that other states are laughing at us about, minus the few who are in worse shape.

From the AP


No more thinking big: Has the US lost its appetite for huge public works projects?
By DAVID PORTER and MICHAEL RUBINKAM
Associated Press Writers

NEWARK, N.J. (AP) -- New Jersey's governor wants to kill a $9 billion-plus train tunnel to New York City because of runaway costs. Six thousand miles away, Hawaii's outgoing governor is having second thoughts about a proposed $5.5 billion rail line in Honolulu.

In many of the 48 states in between, infrastructure projects are languishing on the drawing board, awaiting the right mix of creative financing, political arm-twisting and timing to move forward. And a struggling economy and a surge of political candidates opposed to big spending could make it a long wait.

Has the nation that built the Hoover Dam, brought electricity to the rural South and engineered the interstate highway system lost its appetite for big public works projects? At a time when other countries are pouring money into steel and concrete, is the U.S. unwilling to think long-term?

"My sense is things have changed," said Andrew Goetz, a University of Denver professor and an expert on transportation policy. "People now tend to see any project as a waste of money, and that's just wrong."

"I call it the Bridge to Nowhere syndrome," he added. "High-profile projects get publicized and they become a symbol for any infrastructure project that's out there, and even the ones that are justified get tarnished by the same charge."

The so-called Bridge to Nowhere would have cost hundreds of millions of dollars to connect one Alaskan town to an island of 50 residents. It figured in the 2008 presidential election when then-Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin was criticized for initially backing the plan, which was eventually scrapped.

The other cautionary tale of the past few years is Boston's Big Dig, the highway and tunnel project that was originally envisioned at less than $3 billion and wound up costing nearly $15 billion.

The Big Dig has made it far easier for motorists to get to and from Boston's airport, and it eliminated a noisy and unsightly elevated highway that cast a shadow over some of the city's neighborhoods. But construction was plagued by years of delays, corruption and shoddy workmanship that resulted in the death of a motorist in a ceiling collapse.

A report this month by the Treasury Department and the Council of Economic Advisers paints a picture of a country dissatisfied with the state of America's aging infrastructure and in favor of improvements, but not necessarily eager to commit the dollars to fix it.

Standing in New York's Penn Station on Thursday in front of a sign touting the proposed tunnel, commuter Bill Mischell of Plainsboro, N.J., gave voice to those conclusions.

"You could make the argument that it will make New Jersey a better place to live, but you also have to weigh it impartially against the huge cost," Mischell said. "The state's in pretty significant financial trouble, and the money's got to come from somewhere."

Infrastructure spending in the U.S. stands at 2 percent of the country's gross domestic product- half what it was in 1960 - compared with approximately 9 percent in China and 5 percent for Europe, according to the government report.

"During recessions it is common for state and local governments to cut back on capital projects - such as building schools, roads and parks - in order to meet balanced budget requirements," the report concluded. "However, the need for improved and expanded infrastructure is just as great during a downturn as it is during a boom."

The American Society of Civil Engineers calculates that the U.S. would need to spend an additional $1.1 trillion over the next five years to restore roads, bridges, dams, levees and other infrastructure to good condition. In its latest report card, the engineering society gave the nation's public works a "D" grade.

"Somehow we believe if we ignore it, it will go away," said Blaine Leonard, the society's president. "And it won't. We have to stop hitting the snooze button on this problem."

He said now is a good time to spend money on infrastructure because construction companies in this weak economy are hungry for work and the costs are relatively low as a result.

Major infrastructure projects of the past benefited from strong leadership, notably the interstate highway system pushed by President Dwight D. Eisenhower in the 1950s, he said. Today, though, "there isn't any high-level leadership about infrastructure," so there's no agreement about priorities, Leonard said.

CG/LA Infrastructure LLC, a Washington consulting firm, recently put together a list of the worthiest 100 large infrastructure projects in North America, totaling about $400 billion. Among the suggestions: a next-generation air traffic control system; high-speed rail linking Minneapolis, Milwaukee and Chicago; a pair of highway projects in Texas; and the tunnel that New Jersey's governor has threatened to scuttle.

To be sure, there are large-scale projects under way, notably in California, where a combination of federal dollars and voter-approved bonds and local tax increases are funding improvements, from highway widening to the $6.2 billion renovation of the Bay Bridge between San Francisco and Oakland. And this week, Arizona and Nevada hailed the opening of a $240 million bridge that bypasses Hoover Dam.

However, many projects recently completed or in the pipeline secured funding before the economy went into a slide. Some of them might not be approved today.

In New Jersey, construction on a rail tunnel connecting New Jersey and New York City - the largest transportation project under way in the U.S. - began in 2009 under then-Gov. Jon Corzine, a Democrat. It is projected to double train capacity at peak times as well as provide 6,000 construction jobs immediately and up to 40,000 jobs after its completion in 2018. About $6 billion of the cost is being covered by the federal government and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

Earlier this month, Republican Gov. Chris Christie announced he was pulling the plug because the cost had escalated from $5 billion in 2005 to more than $9 billion by the federal government's estimate, and as much as $14 billion by Christie's reckoning.

"I simply cannot put the taxpayers of the state of New Jersey on what would be a never-ending hook," he said.

Christie later agreed to reconsider. The two-week review period expires Friday.

In Hawaii, Republican Gov. Linda Lingle announced recently that she wouldn't sign off on a federally subsidized rail line until an updated economic study is conducted. And that may not be completed before she leaves office in less than two months. That means the project's fate could be in her successor's hands.

In Seattle, new Mayor Mike McGinn is threatening to hold up construction of a massive highway tunnel to replace the waterfront's dilapidated, earthquake-damaged Alaskan Way Viaduct because he fears city taxpayers will be on the hook if costs spiral beyond the $4.2 billion price tag.

"The issue of the overall cost of the tunnel has been a concern to voters since before the recession, and I think the severity of the state's and the city's fiscal situation is causing people to take a harder look at ... an expensive and risky project," McGinn said.

In Wisconsin, Ohio and California, Republican candidates for governor have vowed they won't endorse high-speed rail projects, despite the promise of billions of dollars from Washington.

Other countries are spending heavily on job-creating infrastructure. Projects include Algeria's $11.2 billion east-west highway; a planned $10 billion bridge linking the Indonesian islands of Java and Sumatra; and China's $60 billion Yangtze River diversion project.

Australia plans to spend $38 billion to relieve traffic congestion in Melbourne, while Britain is preparing for a $45 billion high-speed rail link between London and the West Midlands. Japan is building a $70 billion highway from Tokyo to Osaka, scheduled for completion in 2020.

In the U.S., it often takes a catastrophe to give infrastructure improvements more urgency. The Minneapolis bridge collapse in 2007 that killed 13 people prompted reviews of aging bridges around the country.

"Unfortunately, our attention span is short," Leonard said. "You would think the Minneapolis bridge collapse would have sent repercussions throughout the system that would have resulted in a transportation funding bill, but it didn't. Even bridge funding bills didn't get through Congress."

Consultant Norman Anderson of CG/LA Infrastructure said the federal government's recent emphasis on smaller, "shovel-ready" projects to stimulate the economy is misguided and shows a lack of vision.

"You don't do 'shovel-ready.' That is idiotic and extremely uninformed," he said in an e-mail. "You do projects now because they produce value for an economy 20 to 30 years into the future, as well as producing immediate jobs."

---

Rubinkam reported from Allentown, Pa. AP Business Writer Elaine Kurtenbach in Shanghai contributed to this report.

© 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. Learn more about our Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.

Its sick, the problem with this country TODAY is people worry about MONEY/COST. It makes me sick because it seems thats all THEY care about thus makes them/us look greedy. Money spent on infrastructure is an INVESTMENT. Second, JOBS.

New Jersey HAS to build that tunnel because of the investment, Wisconsin should build these rail systems to INVEST in the future.

Max, i agree with everything you say 1,000 percent.

I know it doesn't sound right calling this mode of transportation a "choo choo," but what should we call it? It most certainly is not "high speed," as it was originally cast. At a top speed of 70 mph and a few stops, it is faster to take the Badger Bus -- and much less expensive.
Yes, 110 mph is the top speed, but with stops in between, the average would be about 70 -- or the same speed as via auto and bus...and a lot more expensive than Badger Bus, and a lot less convenient than auto (or bus). Do you honestly believe that the train would ever top out at 110 given speed restrictions through the different municipalities?

MilwaukeeMax corrected you on the top speed because you misstated it the first time. 70 mph top speed or 70 mph average speed are very different things. And you can't possibly tell me that the Badger Bus averages 70 mph. That's its top speed.

As for where it would go 110 mph? Not east of Brookfield, and I'm not sure about east of Oconomowoc. But certainly it will go 110 mph between Oconomowoc and Sun Prairie, while perhaps slowing down a bit Ixonia, Waterloo, and Marshall, plus of course the stop in Watertown. There is a lot of rural nothing out there.

What to call it? So your extremes are either 'choo-choo' or 'high-speed'? Please. How about 'higher-speed' or 'medium speed' or 'fast rail'. How about just 'passenger rail'? Choo-choo - Are we in Kindergarten?

And, regarding development along the route, just look at the Amtrak stop in Sturtevant as an example -- there's nothing there.
You're right that there is nothing there in Sturtevant, and that's why there isn't much rail-spurred development. People and business aren't going to move there JUST for the rail. But in a place like Watertown or Brookfield or Oconomowoc, it brings a central focal point to an area and makes it more desirable and more valuable. Just look at all the 'town-center' Metra commuter rail stops and you'll see how rail is an important asset.

^^^ Disagree ^^^

It is correct and responsible to worry about money and cost. Undue spending only increases our debt and leads to the decline of the dollar. It seems only recently that money/cost has taken the spotlight and it is because of all of the frivolous spending. When does the spending level get to be too much? I'm all for public projects that have a true benefit to the MAJORITY of the people, but you can't tell me that we will see a positive ROI on the potential HSR line in the near distant future. Even the jobs created and potential economic impact will take dozens of years to even sniff the break-even point.

I have an idea, let's spend $1.5B and develop a government owned space shuttle that can commute 300 people from LA to NY every week. Think of the jobs it would create on the R&D, the launchpads that would have to be built, the restaurants and hotels that would go up to support the project. Yes, it is a bit extreme of an example, but it helps make my point. Just because a few (used loosely here) people want it and we can print the money to make it happen doesn't mean it should.

@Fairtrade - I have yet to see an automobile make the trip at an average speed of 70mphs, when you factor in the fact that you are driving around town, taking on and off ramps, and dealing with traffic, the automobile averages about 55mph(often a bit less during rush hour) even though it's top speed for a lot of the trip may be 70+mph. In addition if you have ever ridden the badger bus you would know that with the few stops it makes where it gets off and back on the freeway right away to pick up or drop off passengers it slows it down enough so that it's average speed is only about 35-40mph. That isn't even in the same ballpark as the train.

I'm frustrated too, but as a fed pencil pusher I would look at the huge transit grant that has been sitting unused for decades and say, even if we give it to them, they won't use it.


^ ding ding ding ding ding! If I were looking at Wisconsin now, I would have the same concerns. I'm not sure Wisconsin is ready for rail, considering its leadership

We made so many large infrastructure investments in the past because we had the money to, especially after WWII. Now we don't. Form a plan, reduce your debt, then invest.

Yours is a biased judgment because you like the idea of a train. You could easily find at least as many people in those states saying how smart Wisconsin is to rid itself of money with expensive, never-ending strings attached. Don't take this so personally. It's just business, proper and contientious business. Now, do you see how mature and incredibly correct Scott Walker's idea is?

The worst part about this is Walker's complete servitude to Wis road builders and the BILLIONS in infrastructure INVESTMENT for road projects. Oh, wait...

Mark Belling Tears into Scott Walker’s Road Builder Fundraiser in Floridal (http://www.expressmilwaukee.com/blog-4928-rip_-mark-belling-tears-into-scott-walkerrss-road-.html)

Scott Walker in a Gator State (http://www.wisdems.org/news/press/view/2010-02-scott-walker-2)

This was the beginning of the year! It's obvious where his priorities lie. For Walker's campaign, money goes miles. Literally.


We made so many large infrastructure investments in the past because we had the money to, especially after WWII. Now we don't. Form a plan, reduce your debt, then invest.

You're the fellow beaver damian, right? I'm saddened to see your frugal disposition. How does a country reduce debts when it's borrowing trillions from foreign banks and has the largest, most over-inflated, self-aggrandized military expenditures history has ever seen. I say invest now before it gets worse.

We made so many large infrastructure investments in the past because we had the money to, especially after WWII. Now we don't. Form a plan, reduce your debt, then invest.

The money came from very high marginal tax rates and borrowing.
WWII was expensive. There was a huge national debt. There was pent up demand in the aftermath, but all that money that had poured into industries and banks during the War and financed the post-war boom came from government bonding and taxes.
One thing the government invested in most heavily post-war btw was education, both public and higher education.
We also propped up, putting it mildly, the economies and political structure of Western Europe and Japan and fought a war in Korea.
This all took vision, risk taking, and public spiritedness, and not all the programs were successful, but fear of failure would have resulted in complete failure.
This is a very simplistic summary, but stalling the economy just to protect the wealthiest among us, (and I mean far far wealthiest and getting farther every moment) from being taxed will make us resemble our neighboring continent to the south, at least as it once was. Pumping some unproductive hoarded wealth into the system to be spread around to stimulate demand is far more likely to rev up the economic engine and carry us into an innovative new future.
We'll always disagree on the details because no choice is perfect, but the current myth that government doesn't play an important role in growing our way past the current slowdown is, truly, depressing.

Well said looksee.

On a somewhat related note, perhaps the folks at milwaukeestreetcar.com have heard our cries for updates? They currently have a "check back soon" screen:

http://milwaukeestreetcar.com/

I think what is being missed here is the fact that the money being spent on passenger rail around the country is needed more urgently in other areas. Our water and sewer infrastructure is crumbling, other power grid is overloaded and aging, and our interstate highway system is slowing becoming obsolete.
I think the major problem people here in the state and around the country with all the money being spent on rail is that there are other projects that affect our everyday life that need to be fixed before we spend massive amounts of money on something that quite frankly is on the "want" list and not the "need" list.
I understand and know what all the pro rail people on this thread are going to say, the $800 million is earmarked for rail and we can't use it for anything else. I still think the money needs to be sent back not just by Wisconsin but by the rest of the states awarded this money with a messgae to Washington, we will not spend this money on something that is not a priority now just for the sake of spending it.

As a side note to everyone who gets so upset that the government spends so much money on road projects let me ask you, how do manufactured goods get distrubuted around this country? They arrive via freight rail in a lot of locations, but then are off loaded onto trucks that then finish delivering them. The reason roads are so important and a higher spending priority than mass transit are because they are one of the main economic drivers of our country. Passenger rail and streetcars do not fullfill this need. I know this is not what a lot of you want to hear but it is a simple economic fact.

Yes, 110 mph is the top speed, but with stops in between, the average would be about 70 -- or the same speed as via auto and bus...and a lot more expensive than Badger Bus, and a lot less convenient than auto (or bus). Do you honestly believe that the train would ever top out at 110 given speed restrictions through the different municipalities?

As for your cost figures, they look good, but none of it is remotely believable. For starters, where does the DOT get its funding? Our taxes. How can you separate the DOT from the state of Wisconsin? While the entities may have different names, they both require our tax dollars to exist. If you're that positive about your numbers, how much would you be willing to bet that they hold up?


You're really going to sit there and say taking a train is less convenient...? I would love you see you try and work on a laptop or smartphone while driving, or even read a newspaper/book for that matter. Yes you could accomplsih this on the bus, but see honest86's comments about the true speed that the bus takes. It would be laughable to say it could come close to 70mph average speed. As for your argument about prices, last I heard the train tickets weren't going to be more than $30 one way and could likely be less. BadgerBus costs between $17.50 and $20 one way depending whether you get tickets online or at the bus itself. I'd say an extra $5 -$10 each way is well worth the extra convenience and faster travel time. An extension to the Twin Cities is only going to strengthen the train's argument against auto and bus travel.

I can't help but get a feeling that everything is just going wrong for Milwaukee. There have been a couple of posters that have said the lack of local leadership is hurting the city and I would have to agree with them. Right-wing radio and its pundits shout their lungs out about how bad rail transportation is, why aren't our local leaders (mayor, aldermen, common council) shouting louder about the benefits? There should be billboards and signs everywhere describing how good rail transportation will be for the city.

And let me put one thing out there. This message board in particular is about the city of Milwaukee. We shouldn't care what the suburbs want and say about Milwaukee. They should never have any input to the matters of the city. Its a crying shame that pundits from Milwaukees western suburbs are able to sabotage many projects that would make the city of Milwaukee a better place to live.

It really is no wonder why so many people want to leave Milwaukee as soon as possible. Its almost like for every potential step forwards the city can take, it takes four steps back. I want to see Milwaukee prosper more than most people I know, but it seriously is getting hard to justify living here. Something needs to be done before Milwaukee is in a hole so deep it cant get out of.

And let me put one thing out there. This message board in particular is about the city of Milwaukee. We shouldn't care what the suburbs want and say about Milwaukee. They should never have any input to the matters of the city. Its a crying shame that pundits from Milwaukees western suburbs are able to sabotage many projects that would make the city of Milwaukee a better place to live.


If you don't want people in the suburbs having input into matters in the City of Milwaukee than the city should stop asking for federal and state grants and funding. This money comes out of the tax dollars people in the suburbs pay and if they are paying for something I think they should at least be able to voice an opinion about it.

I can't help but get a feeling that everything is just going wrong for Milwaukee. There have been a couple of posters that have said the lack of local leadership is hurting the city and I would have to agree with them. Right-wing radio and its pundits shout their lungs out about how bad rail transportation is, why aren't our local leaders (mayor, aldermen, common council) shouting louder about the benefits? There should be billboards and signs everywhere describing how good rail transportation will be for the city.

And let me put one thing out there. This message board in particular is about the city of Milwaukee. We shouldn't care what the suburbs want and say about Milwaukee. They should never have any input to the matters of the city. Its a crying shame that pundits from Milwaukees western suburbs are able to sabotage many projects that would make the city of Milwaukee a better place to live.

It really is no wonder why so many people want to leave Milwaukee as soon as possible. Its almost like for every potential step forwards the city can take, it takes four steps back. I want to see Milwaukee prosper more than most people I know, but it seriously is getting hard to justify living here. Something needs to be done before Milwaukee is in a hole so deep it cant get out of.

I'm not here to troll. I will say it is all relative.

I can imagine how frustrating it can be to have so much (local) resistance to developing rail infrastructure. Luckily, Minneapolis doesn't have too much of that problem. I mean, there are voices that shout against lightrail/regional rail/streetcars, and would no matter how good or cost efficient the plan is. But we do manage to get it done.

On the flip side, though, when I read about all of the *major* condo projects in the pipeline for Milwaukee-- particularly the "gold coast"-- I can't help but be envious. I wish we had local leaders who supported projects that ambitious. Unfortunately, the economy hinders it, and we have at least one council member (who shall remain nameless) who has worked diligently to kill a lot of good residential and commercial projects in our downtown. Walking in east downtown here and parts of the north loop is like being in a bombed out crater. Literally.

So, it works both ways. Definitely be glad with what you have, though. I'd be amazed if people want to leave Milwaukee en masse....strong economy, good cost of living...I'd move there in a heartbeat if the right job came along. And there are not a whole lot of towns in the midwest that you can say that about right now....

@Fairtrade - I have yet to see an automobile make the trip at an average speed of 70mphs, when you factor in the fact that you are driving around town, taking on and off ramps, and dealing with traffic, the automobile averages about 55mph(often a bit less during rush hour) even though it's top speed for a lot of the trip may be 70+mph. In addition if you have ever ridden the badger bus you would know that with the few stops it makes where it gets off and back on the freeway right away to pick up or drop off passengers it slows it down enough so that it's average speed is only about 35-40mph. That isn't even in the same ballpark as the train.


If you look at door to door transit time the car will win over this Madison train. But I don't take the train to chicago because it's faster then driving...

I still feel like the biggest argument about the MKE-Madison line that the majority (not this forum) is ignoring is that it's a starting point for something much bigger than the state of Wisconsin. Killing the MKE-Madison line would be a huge detriment not only to SE Wisconsin but the future of the Midwest high speed network as a whole.

Ex-Downer Garage building on North Ave. lands Open Pantry, pizzeria
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel
Oct. 22, 2010 11:52 a.m. |(17) Comments

The long-vacant former home of Downer Garage, on Milwaukee’s east side, will be home to an Open Pantry convenience store, and a pizzeria.

That's the word Friday from Jim Plaisted, executive director of the East Side Business Improvement District.

An investment group lead by Wangard Partners Inc., in 2009 bought the 6,500-square-foot building, 1609 E. North Ave., for $509,600, and has since been restoring it for retail use.

The Open Pantry chain will move its convenience store, at 1515 E. North Ave., to the new location, Plaisted said. The store is scheduled to open by about Feb. 1, said Wayne Wiertzema, Wangard Partners executive vice president.

Also, Classic Slice, a pizzeria that operates at 2797 S. Kinnickinnic Ave., will open a second location at the building by early December, Wiertzema said.

The 92-year-old building housed the Downer Garage for several years before becoming vacant and falling into disrepair. Around 920 square feet remains available for lease.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/105535033.html

Really happy when Wangard redeveloped this property, now even happier there's going to be some tenants. Pretty good choices, though I'm worried now about what's going to happen with the old OP once they move.

Also, can someone PLEASE redevelop the old white building that is in between RC's and La Piazze...ugh

I think what is being missed here is the fact that the money being spent on passenger rail around the country is needed more urgently in other areas. Our water and sewer infrastructure is crumbling, other power grid is overloaded and aging, and our interstate highway system is slowing becoming obsolete.

I have to disagree with that. I've been all over the country and everywhere highways are being rebuilt. Look at Chicago. They've been rebuilding like mad. A couple years ago every route I take to work when I drive was being reconstructed at some point. Milwaukee has been maintaining it's freeways and has gotten the reconstruction process well underway. Granting that it may have started a little late in the cycle, but you can't do it all at once. There are new power lines and power plants. Kenosha has been building schools and streets.

Just because a particular street or road hasn't been done yet doesn't mean it isn't on the boards. The process for keeping a functioning Highway Department requires that there be so many workers with full-time employment and those workers can only do so much in a year. Until an indestructible road material is created, they are going to wear out. The trick is how far do you let them wear before you fix them? If it's too soon, people will say "waste of money!"

In the last decade, Kenosha rebuilt a section of Highway 32, Sheridan Road, through downtown for the first time in over 50 years. It literally hadn't been redone before in my whole life. You think it needed it? Yet some guy at work said it was a waste of money and that it was perfectly good as is. Some people!!

Obviously, Milwaukee has invested heavily in the sewers and water. And if you don't see that it's better than ever you are not logical. The facts are there.

One of the things I hate most about politicians is the excessive way they describe everything and the media just amplifies it. To listen to them you'd think the country was coming down around our shoulders, but it's not.

The amount of money being requested for trains is a pittance.

I think the country has an infrastructure problem, and more money needs to be spent in many areas, not less. Is $800 million on a rail line a lot of money? I'm not sure it is, and it sure as heck isn't the cause of the nation's budgetary problems. When looking at the budget, 3 things matter: Social Security, health care (Medicare, Medicaid), and the military. Those three items account for like 70% of spending. Unless there is substantial reform in those areas, we could cut 100% of discretionary spending and still end up in a budget hole in the not too distant future.

That's not to say that money should be thrown around willy-nilly on infrastructure, but efficient transportation infrastructure is so vital to the functioning of an economy, and our reliance on one mode of transportation so imperils our entire economy, that this relative drop-in-the-bucket seems to be money well spent to me. The real fundamental budget problems are harder to solve, but that's where the work needs to be done instead of focusing so much something that could actually be a catalyst for growth.

It''s easy for people to pretend (I'm not accusing anyone on here specifically) that if we just eliminated a few bridges-to-nowhere we could balance the budget, but even as wasteful as that was it wasn't what's put us in the hole, and connecting the two largest metros in the state with a rail line is no bridge-to-nowhere. Lets not kill good projects that make transport more efficient because we aren't willing to do the hard work to fix the budget where the real budgetary problems are.

As an aside, I've become extremely frustrated with politicians on both sides inability to understand, or unwillingness to talk about, the truth about balancing the federal budget, namely that some combination of cuts to the three areas above and tax increases are the only way out. We can talk about what the mix should be between tax and spending cuts, but balancing the budget is going to cause some pain. Better to have some pain now than a lot of pain later. Grumble, grumble, grumble.

^^ Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks Dan.

namely that some combination of cuts to the three areas above and tax increases are the only way out

I agree with the cuts, but I do not agree with the tax increases. As the economy grows, more tax dollars will be generated simply due to increased revenue. Increasing taxes takes more money out of the hands of the people, which means less is getting spent and less tax dollars being generated. I know this is one of the core issues that separate the two parties, but I have a lot more faith in having people like us and entrepreneurs turn the economy around than handing it over to the government and have them spend a good deal of it on administration and red tape. Remember that every dollar that stays in the economy gets taxed multiple times as it passes hands.

Sorry, double post.

Thank you, Danillo. You are the new voice of reason.

Yes, agree with his position or not, Danillo has always done a good job articulating his stance and keeping discussions moving in the right direction, especially on the GB board.

Sorry if we are getting a little off topic here.

I am more and more firmly believing that the biggest 'weak spot' WRT the USA's (and the rest North America's) transport situation is that the the vast majority of the continent's railroad track infrastructure is owned by the same companies that run the trains on it. The railroad companies can decide who to and not to serve (ie, see how much the quality of service to smaller local customers has tanked since CN took over Wisconsin Central in late 2001 - with all of that former rail traffic going to trucks) and worst of all, are still playing 'Rail Baron' games against each other to the long-term detriment of local and regional economies (ie, check out the mechanics of how the former CNW Shoreline subdivision through Manitowoc and Sheboygan was chopped up during the late 1980s and early 1990s).

Another example - Wisconsin Central ran daily round trip intermodal trains between Chicago and Green Bay - and those trains were LOOOOOOONG! (and sometimes split into two sections) - that were well patronized by Schneider and other local truck carriers in NE Wisconsin. CN dropped that service within a couple of weeks after taking over WC because those trains were not profitable *enough*.

I am of the opinion that if a way could be found to totally separate the continent's track infrastructure from train operations (with one set of entities owning, maintaining and dispatching the track and another set physically running the trains), going to a full 'open access' system like we have now with the public highways, civil aviation, seaports, etc. (as is now in place with the railroads in much of Europe) - where anyone can operate anywhere as long as their crews are properly qualified, their equipment meets minimum technical standards and they are willing and able to pay the necessary fees and tolls - will go a long way towards 'rebalancing' things, perhaps to the point of creating a new 'golden age' of railroading.

(Imagine someone like Schneider being able to hire their own crews, lease their own locomotives and freight cars and run those Chicago-Green Bay intermodal trains by themselves!)

Mike

What do you think CSX, Norfolk Southern, Union Pacific, Burlington Northern Santa Fe, CN and CP would think about that idea? How much do you think it would cost to buy 150,000 miles of privately owned railroad track? At $3 million per mile - it would be about 450 billion dollars. Do you think spending that much money would be worthwhile to provide this new government owned rail right-of-way? Thats a huge amount of money to spend just so the US can try something that I really don't know for sure if it would be any better than what we currently have.

Banner day for Milwaukee on SSC!

What do you think CSX, Norfolk Southern, Union Pacific, Burlington Northern Santa Fe, CN and CP would think about that idea? How much do you think it would cost to buy 150,000 miles of privately owned railroad track? At $3 million per mile - it would be about 450 billion dollars. Do you think spending that much money would be worthwhile to provide this new government owned rail right-of-way? Thats a huge amount of money to spend just so the US can try something that I really don't know for sure if it would be any better than what we currently have.
If anyone wants to see how CSX deals with using their tracks for any rail project, look at SunRail in Orlando. Waste of time and money, they'll just drag out more money from the taxpayers and government.

(from the Journal Sentinel this morning)
Lighthouse project shines in Fifth Ward

The commercial real estate industry remains mired in a deep funk, with prices for properties at their lowest levels since the economic downturn started three years ago.

But one major Milwaukee development project continues to make progress, thanks in part to federal tax credits that helped finance it, and an appeal to people who want to live, work and play in an urban neighborhood just south of downtown.

The first phase of the South Water Works project was completed in May 2009, when the 55-unit Bridgeview Apartments opened at 235 E. Pittsburgh Ave. Those units are fully leased, and developer Lighthouse Development Co. is now constructing 52 units in an addition behind a neighboring building, at 201 E. Pittsburgh Ave.

The 201 building also is being renovated for office and retail use, and last year drew its first tenant, a 7,000-square-foot office for Columbia Sportswear. Meanwhile, another building at the complex, at 209-261 S. Water St., could become the new home for Next Act Theatre.

So far, about $35 million has been invested in South Water Works, where industrial buildings in a portion of Walker's Point known as the Historic Fifth Ward are being converted into new uses. The project has survived the downturn in part because it had much of its financing intact before the recession took hold, said Lighthouse co-owner Brett Grasse.

"We got enough of a head start before the commercial markets fell apart," Grasse said.

Also, Lighthouse's idea of creating a mix of uses at the 6-acre site, which last housed Transpak Corp. before its 2007 move to Franklin, resonates with both businesses and apartment dwellers, he said.

"We're fortunate that some other people have an understanding of that," Grasse said.

That includes young professionals, who've leased up apartments at Bridgeview, where units with 730 to 1,300 square feet have monthly rents of about $1,050 to $1,700.

(full article here)
http://www.jsonline.com/business/105580738.html

What do you think CSX, Norfolk Southern, Union Pacific, Burlington Northern Santa Fe, CN and CP would think about that idea? How much do you think it would cost to buy 150,000 miles of privately owned railroad track? At $3 million per mile - it would be about 450 billion dollars. Do you think spending that much money would be worthwhile to provide this new government owned rail right-of-way? Thats a huge amount of money to spend just so the US can try something that I really don't know for sure if it would be any better than what we currently have.
That's why I said "if a way can be found". Right now, the biggest impediment to real upgrades to North America's railroad system and the provision of truly useful new services (both freight and passenger) is the track ownership structure - not an issue in much of Europe.

And, a bit of hypocrisy is at play here too - one of the biggest complaints that I have heard from professional railroaders FOREVER is that "We have to carry our load 100% regarding building and maintaining our track infrastructure, including paying taxes on it, while our true competitors (mainly trucks) get all of these subsidies in the form of various tax-supported government agencies building and maintaining the roads that they drive on". 'Open access' for the rails (like with the highways and so forth) would eliminate that discrepancy - and, the big rail carriers would also be just as free to enter new markets and leave unattractive existing ones as anyone else.

BTW, the State of Wisconsin's government already owns a significant amount of the railroad trackage in the state - nearly all of the track operated by Wisconsin Southern (WSOR) is state-owned and operated by WSOR under contract. The Watertown-Madison segment of the proposed Milwaukee-Madison passenger service is one of those state-owned WSOR lines.

One way that such a conversion might be done would be to require that all railroads, regardless of size, be divided into separate companies to own, maintain and dispatch the track infrastructure and to operate the trains, with the dispatchers being required to treat the operating companies on a non-discriminatory basis.

Also, an analogy - local electric utilities have been doing something similar in recent years. Nearly ALL of the high-energy power transmission lines in the eastern half of Wisconsin are now owned by a company called American Transmission Company (http://www.atcllc.com/). They started up about ten years ago and assumed the ownership of the wholesale power transmission lines that were previously owned by the individual utilities (ATC is owned by a consortium of the utilities), operating on such an 'open access' basis. The local utilities feed power into and draw power from their system as needed, also using their lines to buy power from other areas, paying the necessary fees to support their service. ATC has been actively and aggressively upgrading their lines and expanding their traffic-carrying capacity since their startup, too. This has been taking place recently in other areas of the USA as well.

Am i whistling Dixie here? Perhaps, but this track ownership situation is an issue that will be of growing importance as fuel becomes progressively more expensive (like it did in 2008 - but then does not come back down) and the resulting public demands for new, improved and restored non-road transport alternatives increase.

Mike

who put us up on the banner? I love the pic!

COOL BANNER!!!!

^^

Agreed!

:cheers1:

Mike

The banner pic is actually rather dated... though the only clue is the building north of the Ale House, and the lack of sign at top of 411... still cool.

I have to disagree with that. I've been all over the country and everywhere highways are being rebuilt. Look at Chicago. They've been rebuilding like mad. A couple years ago every route I take to work when I drive was being reconstructed at some point. Milwaukee has been maintaining it's freeways and has gotten the reconstruction process well underway. Granting that it may have started a little late in the cycle, but you can't do it all at once. There are new power lines and power plants. Kenosha has been building schools and streets.

Just because a particular street or road hasn't been done yet doesn't mean it isn't on the boards. The process for keeping a functioning Highway Department requires that there be so many workers with full-time employment and those workers can only do so much in a year. Until an indestructible road material is created, they are going to wear out. The trick is how far do you let them wear before you fix them? If it's too soon, people will say "waste of money!"

In the last decade, Kenosha rebuilt a section of Highway 32, Sheridan Road, through downtown for the first time in over 50 years. It literally hadn't been redone before in my whole life. You think it needed it? Yet some guy at work said it was a waste of money and that it was perfectly good as is. Some people!!

Obviously, Milwaukee has invested heavily in the sewers and water. And if you don't see that it's better than ever you are not logical. The facts are there.

One of the things I hate most about politicians is the excessive way they describe everything and the media just amplifies it. To listen to them you'd think the country was coming down around our shoulders, but it's not.

The amount of money being requested for trains is a pittance.

You say that obviously Milwaukee has invested in sewers and water, could you please provide an example of this. I can give give you an example or two of projects that need to be done. How about seperating the city's outdated storm and sewer water system. How about replacing old iron pipes downtown that are breaking down, I seem to remember some of these bursting in the last couple of years in very cold weather.
There are new power lines and power plants you say. I agree with you about new power plants and I guess it is my fault for not specifying this, but what about old transformers that are overloaded and power poles that are way past their life expectancy of 20-40 years.
When I was talking about needing to spend money on infrastrucure I did not mean just a few power plants and some sewer and water projects that you say happened but don't even list what they are.
My point, which I guess I didn't explain well enough, is that you can build all the shiny new passenger rail that you want and if the power, water, and road infrastructure is falling apart then there will be no businesses and people for it to serve. Passenger rail is not going to draw businesses and more residents to a region if all of these other things are aging and falling apart.
This is why no matter how little you think the $800 million is in the grand scheme of things I will still insist that there are other more important items that need to be attended to first.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/105862698.html

Any thoughts on the mall's future?

Will we be seeing the Walker campaign making hay out of this?

Mike

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/105862698.html

Any thoughts on the mall's future?

Will we be seeing the Walker campaign making hay out of this?

Mike

Not trying to open a can of worms, but I couldn't help but notice this in the comment section

Meanwhile, retail in the Third Ward seems to be steadily growing. It appears that the mall business model doesn't work for downtowns, at least in most downtowns. For one thing, they attract a lot of teenagers and thugs and teenage thugs who don't spend much money and scare away other potential customers.


As a young black male, I find this somewhat offensive. (BTW, we all know this guy is talking about black teens, so please, let's not play dumb and act like race has nothing to do with this) Anyway, I've never really understood this. You'd think gang wars break out on a weekly basis at these malls. What do these teenage "thugs" do that has people shaking in their boots? I mean, they can be loud and a bit annoying, but I've never been scared around them. What's going on that I'm not seeing?

Not trying to open a can of worms, but I couldn't help but notice this in the comment section




As a young black male, I find this somewhat offensive. (BTW, we all know this guy is talking about black teens, so please, let's not play dumb and act like race has nothing to do with this) Anyway, I've never really understood this. You'd think gang wars break out on a weekly basis at these malls. What do these teenage "thugs" do that has people shaking in their boots? I mean, they can be loud and a bit annoying, but I've never been scared around them. What's going on that I'm not seeing?

They don't DO anything, their mere existence scares those racist people, and I would bet you those people have never even stepped foot in Grand Avenue. They are the same people who talk about "all the crime" downtown, as if you would get shot just walking down the streets. I live down here, walk around all the time, never heard a gunshot in my life.

They just live in thier little sheltered community in the mistaken belief that everywhere else is a hotbed for crime.


As for what should be done with the Grand Avenue, I still think it can be saved, and I really think the way to do it would be to convince Marcus to move their movie theatre into the old grand theatre.

They just live in thier little sheltered community in the mistaken belief that everywhere else is a hotbed for crime.

The paradox is that we need these people to come downtown and support our Mall. Racists as they may be, we can not dismiss them and hope our downtown will flurish without them. If you think of lively downtowns (Chicago, Indianapolis, etc) they are filled with a mix of local residents in additional to tourist suburbanites wanting to spend a night out on the town.

Tha mall close to where I live has punk white teenagers that loiter, yell, and generally deter shoppers while not providing any money themselves to the mall. I'm not sure what can be done legally to prevent them from doing this other than beefing up private security, but the fact is that they create an unattractive environment for families and young shoppers that have many choices as to where they shop.

I agree with neqquah that he was implying black people. It's truly sad that people have these silly fears in this area and are this ignorant about Milwaukee. It's not cool to refer to ordinary black people (probally just waiting around for the bus) as 'thugs'. This wouldn't have been said if it was a bunch of white, backwards hat wearing skateboarders shooting the s--t at Grand Ave, the Library, or along Wisconsin Ave. But, I suppose many suburbanites have these views and thats a hurdle this city has to deal with.

I think the real problem with the Grand Avenue is poor marketing on the part of it's owner's / operators. I live in the City of Waukesha and I will tell you that I have thought of shopping at the Grand Avenue and always decided against it. The reason for this is not because I think it is dangerous, it is because I have no idea what stores are even there. I end up going to Brookfield Square or even Mayfair because I figure that at least if there isn't a store there selling something I want I haven't driven 22 miles to turn around and come home again.
I don't know how to do it, maybe run newspaper or television ads, but I think the Grand Avenue has to let suburbanites it has store to offer them before they drive down there to use it. I really do think this is the major problem.

I think the real problem with the Grand Avenue is poor marketing on the part of it's owner's / operators. I live in the City of Waukesha and I will tell you that I have thought of shopping at the Grand Avenue and always decided against it. The reason for this is not because I think it is dangerous, it is because I have no idea what stores are even there. I end up going to Brookfield Square or even Mayfair because I figure that at least if there isn't a store there selling something I want I haven't driven 22 miles to turn around and come home again.
I don't know how to do it, maybe run newspaper or television ads, but I think the Grand Avenue has to let suburbanites it has store to offer them before they drive down there to use it. I really do think this is the major problem.

Well you're better off shopping at Mayfair, Brookfield Square or even Bayshore because they have a good variety of stores that you will not find at Grand Avenue. Grand Avenue has one good store - Brew City. There is no Eddie Bauer, Anthropologie, Abercrombie, J Crew, Crate & Barrel, Restoration Hardware, Williams & Sonoma, Forever 21 or even a movie theater. Grand Avenue has Foot Locker, Lady's Foot Locker, Kid's Foot Locker and like four other shoe stores. Oh, and Walgreens and Daly's Pen Shop. It's a complete joke of a mall if you ask me. They're doing a couple good things though with the addition of a farmers market in November and a women's fashion boutique called Mirage. The Grand Avenue Mall needs a heck of a lot more than that though if anyone's going to consider it a legitimate contender with the big suburban malls.

Another Marriott may be checking in to Milwaukee
Published: October 28, 2010

By Marie Rohde

A developer has submitted plans to demolish five historic buildings in the heart of downtown to make way for a new 10-story Marriott Milwaukee Hotel, said Alderman Robert Bauman, who represents the area.


http://dailyreporter.com/blog/2010/10/28/another-marriott-may-be-checking-in-to-milwaukee/

Check out this interesting read on research conducted by the Institute for Justice. This organization has concluded that Milwaukee Alderman's so-called 'Aldermanic Privilege' has thwarted development in this city.

This very process will most likely enable Milwaukee Alderman Robert Bauman to kill the newly proposed Marriott Hotel on the southwest corner of Wisconsin Avenue and Milwaukee Street.

QUOTE "Because of the corruption and appearance of corruption at City Hall due to the ongoing practice of aldermanic privilege, the Milwaukee Common Council set up a task force to study how alcoholic-beverage-related licenses were granted, and recommend possible solutions to lingering problems. The study largely confined itself to alcoholicbeverage licenses, but the results are applicable to all license applications that come before the License Committee."

http://www.ij.org/citystudies/milwaukee

Good news about the new potential hotel. That will be good for Milwaukee. I definitely wouldn't call a ten story building a "highrise" though.

I didn't want to register in order to read the Daily Reporter, so I didn't get all of the details. Are these five historic buildings that are proposed to be demolished very important or large? Any additional details about the location? What type of a Marriott is it? Thanks in advance for any additional details.

Good news about the new potential hotel. That will be good for Milwaukee. I definitely wouldn't call a ten story building a "highrise" though.

I didn't want to register in order to read the Daily Reporter, so I didn't get all of the details. Are these five historic buildings that are proposed to be demolished very important or large? Any additional details about the location? What type of a Marriott is it? Thanks in advance for any additional details.


Not so fast GarfieldPark, according to the Emporis Standards Committee, any building over 113 feet (35 meters defines a high-rise building); this development will probably surpass the minimum definition of a highrise.

Additional Details on the proposed Marriott Milwaukee Hotel

Another Marriott may be checking in to Milwaukee
Published: October 28, 2010

By Marie Rohde from Thr Daily Reporter

A developer has submitted plans to demolish five historic buildings in the heart of downtown to make way for a new 10-story Marriott Milwaukee Hotel, said Alderman Robert Bauman, who represents the area.

3rd_Coast Comment: Would be disappointing if Bauman exercises his "aldermanic privilege" to stop this latest proposal. This is such bullshit!

Located on the southwest corner of Wisconsin Avenue and Milwaukee Street, the buildings wrap around the Private Banking Co. The owner of the properties, MBI Properties Inc., has made several earlier proposals to build a hotel on the site but has faced stiff opposition from Bauman, who insists the buildings should be preserved.

“It’s pure economic waste,” said Bauman of the hotel plans. “There are plenty of other sites in downtown that they could develop without destroying our heritage.”

Douglas Nysse, a principal in the Milwaukee architectural firm Kahler Slater Inc., met with city officials Wednesday with plans for the hotel. The plans will go to the Milwaukee Historical Preservation Commission on Nov. 15.

If the commission denies the request to raze the buildings, the matter could be overridden by a two-thirds vote of the Common Council.

The buildings are in a historic district and need to go through some additional steps before they can be razed.

According to an e-mail to city officials attributed to Nysse, who could not immediately be reached for comment, the firm would provide photographs, site plans, elevations and other conceptual plans.

Article from The Daily Reporter, October 28, 2010

^ I'm the world's foremost hater of NIMBY's, but I gotta go with the Alderman on this one (a rarity for me).

Milwaukee's downtown has plenty of god-awful, block long parking garages, as well as surface lots. There is NO reason to demolish historic buildings for this. And the buildings in question, while not architectural masterpieces, are good building stock, from my view.

I too have to agree with the alderman on this one. There are way too many surface parking lots around downtown, including one a block away, to sacrifice these buildings. While not gems, these buildings interact with the street in a way that a garbage marriot never could.

There is no way these buildings should come down. Some of Milwaukee's best most unique streets are ones that have older building stock, think Milwaukee St.

And I'm curious what people think "aldermanic privilege" actually is? Because, all it is, if it exists, is committees often, not always, follow the lead of the Alderman local to an issue. You know because this Alderman is attempting to represent their constituents. Now I don't always agree with this outcome, but that is all it means.

Bauman is absolutely right. Milwaukee has no lack of surface parking lots to build a crappy Marriot Hotel. We all know what this building will look like - completely flat, beige, probably faced in EIFS, zero personality. Frankly I have little confidence in Kahler Slater lifting this above the utterly mundane...

Let's save our heritage and adaptively reuse these historic structures. Face it, our best streets are what they are because they mix in the old and the new. Let's learn from this lesson.

Thanks for the additional information about the plans. I would agree - although I'm not specifically familiar with the particular buildings - but it sure seems like 5 historic buildings would be worth preserving.

There is no way in HELL that this project should get approved. Those buildings are occupied, have plenty of character AND potential, and there are WAY WAY WAY too many parking lots downtown.

“It’s pure economic waste,” said Bauman of the hotel plans. “There are plenty of other sites in downtown that they could develop without destroying our heritage.”



I agree. The buildings being demolished are gorgeous, and should not be demolished for a 10 story hotel. Are there really no better sites they could have chosen for this?

Am I right in thinking this is the corner with the Downtown Books on it? I think the building on that corner should be preserved, but I do not think I would be to sad to see the part Downtown Books is in go. What they really should do is preserve the Facade of these buildings, then have a setback at their rooflines and build the Hotel up from there. Would keep the old buildings there, and with the setback I do not think a rising 'skyscraper' would be that bad of an idea.

While I generally am not in the group of destroying historic buildings, I think sometimes we have to choose our battles. In this case, I wouldn't jump on board the destruction bandwagon, as there are multiple empty lots around, but at the same time, a new hotel is always wanted/needed and it is Wisconsin Ave, our "main" street in town.

Bauman is absolutely right. Milwaukee has no lack of surface parking lots to build a crappy Marriot Hotel. We all know what this building will look like - completely flat, beige, probably faced in EIFS, zero personality. Frankly I have little confidence in Kahler Slater lifting this above the utterly mundane...

Let's save our heritage and adaptively reuse these historic structures. Face it, our best streets are what they are because they mix in the old and the new. Let's learn from this lesson.

frankly, you're a dumbass. kahler slater was the architect of record for both the calatrava addition to the art museum, and the original saairnen piece, they restored the state capitol building, restored and expanded the milwaukee hilton, worked on the pfister, & restored the skirvin hilton in okc. i think they have a clue when it come to saving historic infrastructure and adding new sq footage. btw, architects are very sensitive to existing infrastructure and preserving our heritage. developers are the ones who want to rip anything down that isn't bringing in a profit. lets reserve judgement until more details surface.

Am I right in thinking this is the corner with the Downtown Books on it? I think the building on that corner should be preserved, but I do not think I would be to sad to see the part Downtown Books is in go. What they really should do is preserve the Facade of these buildings, then have a setback at their rooflines and build the Hotel up from there. Would keep the old buildings there, and with the setback I do not think a rising 'skyscraper' would be that bad of an idea.

While I generally am not in the group of destroying historic buildings, I think sometimes we have to choose our battles. In this case, I wouldn't jump on board the destruction bandwagon, as there are multiple empty lots around, but at the same time, a new hotel is always wanted/needed and it is Wisconsin Ave, our "main" street in town.


We do have to pick our battles and I think this is the battle to fight.
The downtown of Milwaukee was decimated and here they want to knock down a part that is relatively intact. Stupid.
Fix up those buildings. We need street life and character in Downtown Milwaukee. There are clusters of buildings that have survived just fine in Chicago and there is no reason why these cant.

Its just that whoever owns the buildings wants the quick buck,
its harder to restore buildings for some people or just not something they like to do. Pick a vacant lot. There are plenty of them to choose from.

Am I right in thinking this is the corner with the Downtown Books on it? I think the building on that corner should be preserved, but I do not think I would be to sad to see the part Downtown Books is in go. What they really should do is preserve the Facade of these buildings, then have a setback at their rooflines and build the Hotel up from there. Would keep the old buildings there, and with the setback I do not think a rising 'skyscraper' would be that bad of an idea.

While I generally am not in the group of destroying historic buildings, I think sometimes we have to choose our battles. In this case, I wouldn't jump on board the destruction bandwagon, as there are multiple empty lots around, but at the same time, a new hotel is always wanted/needed and it is Wisconsin Ave, our "main" street in town.


http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i104/gehrijac/marriot.jpg

bldgs 1 & 2 on wisc ave would be prime for facade restoratoration...
bldgs 3-5 demolished for new structure

Gorman draws foreign funds for hotel

The Business Journal - by Sean Ryan

Date: Thursday, October 28, 2010, 3:23pm CDT

Gorman & Co. plans a 90-room hotel at The Brewery, the former Pabst Brewing Co. site in downtown Milwaukee.

Gorman & Co. Inc. officials are attracting Chinese investors through a federal immigration program to finance a 90-room hotel project at The Brewery, the former Pabst Brewing Co. site on the west side of downtown Milwaukee.

The Oregon, Wis.-based developer is planning to renovate and restore two buildings to set up an extended-stay hotel with first-floor entertainment
venues, such as a beer hall or museum, said chief executive officer Gary Gorman. He said he has commitments from investors in China to finance $15 million of the estimated $18.8 million project.

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/print-edition/2010/10/29/gorman-draws-foreign-funds-for-hotel.html

3rd Coast: you have to agree that there are FAR better sites in downtown Milwaukee for a hotel development like this. Even if it is a glorious, beautiful tall glassy structure (which the latest renderings suggest it is NOT-- sadly a proposal for a building just maybe a story or two taller than the current historical buildings on site). As others have stated, these buildings are sound, they are occupied and they are historic. Let's not do what Chicago and other cities did and wash away our past completely. Lots of other "missing teeth" in the mouth of downtown Milwaukee that could be filled in instead of this site.

Always like to plug riverwest,
very cool bar especially this time of year (former funeral parlor)
and nice owner,


http://www.avclub.com/milwaukee/articles/new-bar-new-shows-and-a-new-way-to-mock-ron-johnso,46937/

Always like to plug riverwest,
very cool bar especially this time of year (former funeral parlor)
and nice owner,


http://www.avclub.com/milwaukee/articles/new-bar-new-shows-and-a-new-way-to-mock-ron-johnso,46937/

I love that place... even if I am always slightly worried that there might be traces of formaldehyde in the wallpaper when I'm in there...

A developer has submitted plans to demolish five historic buildings in the heart of downtown to make way for a new 10-story Marriott Milwaukee Hotel


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/looksee/Decorated%20images/mariottsite.jpg

Yeah, if you had to pick which side to save it would be the
French looking ones with the ?mansard roofs.

The others are pretty wornout, and look like
they are from a wildwest town which is cool,
but the middle one is horrendous.

Ofcourse the railway exchange building on the corner
is a gem. And rightfully off the table in terms of any sort
of demolition

Ya honestly, if the building directly on the corner is saved, I couldn't personally care less about the others. I mean the 3 along Milwaukee Ave (buildings 3,4 & 5) are horrendous, especially the one in the middle (building 4). I mean the upper two floors of those side ones (3 &5) are ok, but the bases have been completly 'modernized' it would appear and retain no historical significance that I can see (aka I care about) other than the classic ruining of older buildings to make them more 'modern.'

As for the two along Wisconsin Avenue (buildings 1 & 2)...again, the bottom levels have been completely bastardized. Were they willing to go back and restore those levels, I would be all for their preservation, however how feasible is that? I enjoy the rooftop of the Wisconsin Avenue ones, and as I said, were they able to keep the facades, I would have no problem with a modern building rising out of their backsides with a step-back of a few feet.

But in the end, I personally will not cry if these buildings go. Save the Wisconsin Avenue facing ones if you can, screw the rest. Yipee a new Hotel downtown, just make sure it isn't some piece of junk throwaway building, at least put some effort into it if you are going to occupy a prime piece of real estate like that one.

I can't believe you guys are so quick to write off those buildings. A lot of the need work, yes, but they're all fine buildings. Building 4 is actually the best of the five, in my opinion.

It's complete BS to level any of these buildings.

Ya honestly, if the building directly on the corner is saved, I couldn't personally care less about the others. I mean the 3 along Milwaukee Ave (buildings 3,4 & 5) are horrendous, especially the one in the middle (building 4). I mean the upper two floors of those side ones (3 &5) are ok, but the bases have been completly 'modernized' it would appear and retain no historical significance that I can see (aka I care about) other than the classic ruining of older buildings to make them more 'modern.'

As for the two along Wisconsin Avenue (buildings 1 & 2)...again, the bottom levels have been completely bastardized. Were they willing to go back and restore those levels, I would be all for their preservation, however how feasible is that? I enjoy the rooftop of the Wisconsin Avenue ones, and as I said, were they able to keep the facades, I would have no problem with a modern building rising out of their backsides with a step-back of a few feet.

But in the end, I personally will not cry if these buildings go. Save the Wisconsin Avenue facing ones if you can, screw the rest. Yipee a new Hotel downtown, just make sure it isn't some piece of junk throwaway building, at least put some effort into it if you are going to occupy a prime piece of real estate like that one.


The frenchy mansard roofed buildings are very nice,
the bottoms dont have to be necessarily restored, even if modernized would be nice. Hey this is a case of unlucky buildings owned by
an owner bent of their destruction. He or She or IT
has decided to let them fester and decay to the point where
people in general wont care if they are torn down.
An extreme example of this is a large block of buildings
in Chicago at the Milwaukee Grand intersection, an entire
block is painted monolithic grey and all the windows are boarded up,
and it has been that way for 20 plus years.

The moment these buildings entered into this guys hands
their fate was written. Complete destruction and razed to the ground.
Weird how these guys cant just buy a vacant lot.
But these vacant lot guys can be lazy too and like the low taxes
and collecting money from parking.

As for the two along Wisconsin Avenue (buildings 1 & 2)...again, the bottom levels have been completely bastardized. Were they willing to go back and restore those levels, I would be all for their preservation, however how feasible is that? I enjoy the rooftop of the Wisconsin Avenue ones, and as I said, were they able to keep the facades, I would have no problem with a modern building rising out of their backsides with a step-back of a few feet.

But in the end, I personally will not cry if these buildings go. Save the Wisconsin Avenue facing ones if you can, screw the rest. Yipee a new Hotel downtown, just make sure it isn't some piece of junk throwaway building, at least put some effort into it if you are going to occupy a prime piece of real estate like that one.

Either you've sadly had the misfortune of having never set foot in Downtown Books or you're not much of a reader...

I've never set foot inside Downtown Books. The store can relocate though. I doubt the drab building is what makes that store so great. I have been to the weirdass bookstore just off 76th street on Greenfield if that makes up for it.

I've never set foot inside Downtown Books. The store can relocate though. I doubt the drab building is what makes that store so great. I have been to the weirdass bookstore just off 76th street on Greenfield if that makes up for it.

With a statement like that, it's apparent you've never been there.

You must go. The quirky building is one of the best charms of that place.

The apparent part being the beginning where I clearly state that I have not been inside? Anyway, I just don't see the real charm in those buildings. Sorry. All I see is what was once a charming building that was wrecked in the name of progress, and now a rundown looking bookstore inhabit that abomination. The charm will not be brought back to the building over fear of replacing that bookstore.

Sorry, its just not what *I* would prefer to see in one of the more prominent locations downtown. It really may be great inside, I don't know, but from the outside, and not being told to go inside, people aren't going to naturally just head inside. To me it looks like a blight on the area.

Posting this from my phone, so sorry I'd auto correct made some of this weird.

There are 6 large surface lots within 3 blocks of this site...enough said.

I've never set foot inside Downtown Books. The store can relocate though. I doubt the drab building is what makes that store so great. I have been to the weirdass bookstore just off 76th street on Greenfield if that makes up for it.

See, this is what I mean. Go to Downtown Books. I implore you to visit. You will see that the old building which houses it is EXACTLY what makes that store so great. Just because something is new doesn't mean it's better. Remember that.

Just because it is old doesn't mean it is better, or worth saving either, remember that!

Oh, and a lot on Clybourne beneath the highway is not the same as a lot on Wisconsin Avenue, not by a long shot.

Just because it is old doesn't mean it is better, or worth saving either, remember that!

Oh, and a lot on Clybourne beneath the highway is not the same as a lot on Wisconsin Avenue, not by a long shot.

There's a difference between not saving buildings and actively destroying them.

Oh, and a lot on Clybourne beneath the highway is not the same as a lot on Wisconsin Avenue, not by a long shot.

Lot on Michigan and Broadway (not under 794), teaming up with the proposed Irgens development at Jefferson and Mason (not under 794), lot at Michigan between Jackson and Van Buren (not under 794), lot on Jackson between Mason and Wells (not under 794)

Marriot has plenty of great location options that don't require demolishing historical buildings. Are the lots on Michigan Ave on the most vibrant street in downtown...? No, but neither is anything on Wisconsin Ave.

Like I said before, I am all for saving a building that has merit, but I personally do not see it in these buildings. I don't think there is a building anyone could name in the city that everyone here would approve of being destroyed. If the hotel wanted to relocate, fine, let them, but if its this site or nothing, I still stand by tearing it down.

ThatGuy: have you seen the renderings of the proposed building? They are godawful. Also, go visit Downtown Books, please. I'm going to keep reminding you until you actually do.

ThatGuy: have you seen the renderings of the proposed building? They are godawful. Also, go visit Downtown Books, please. I'm going to keep reminding you until you actually do.

And make sure you explore the entire place...you have to make it upstairs.

And make sure you explore the entire place...you have to make it upstairs.

agreed. The upstairs of Downtown Books is pretty cool. You are almost always alone up there and the layout is very interesting. They have a great comic book and magazine section.

Maybe I will head there tomorrow. As for the design of the new building, I have not seen it, but all I was commenting on was that I didn't think the loss of those buildings, especially the ones on Milwaukee Ave, would be that heartbreaking to me.

I know I am being the voice of opposition here, but I really am not the sort to just tear down anything and everything, but I really just do not care for these buildings. As I said before, I can appreciate the roof of the Wisconsin Avenue building, but I would be 100% fine with that being incorporated into a new building.

I personally think advocating that to the developer would fall on much more receptive ears than "no way no how" statements.

http://media.jsonline.com/images/mjs-marriott.jpg

Marriott would replace two historic buildings
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel
Nov. 2, 2010 |(13) COMMENTS

A clash between development and preservation is brewing in downtown Milwaukee over plans to spend $50 million building a 200-room Marriott Hotel while demolishing buildings designated as historic.

A proposal to raze buildings on E. Wisconsin Ave. and N. Milwaukee St. is to be filed Wednesday with city officials. Wave Development LLC would demolish the buildings to create a site for a 10-story hotel.

But demolishing the 19th-century buildings is opposed by Ald. Robert Bauman, whose district includes the site. The buildings have historic and architectural value and should be renovated for new uses; Wave should look at other locations for its project, Bauman said.

"We have plenty of sites in downtown Milwaukee where they could develop to their heart's content, with the enthusiastic support of this office," Bauman said Tuesday.

"I appreciate the alderman's comments, 'Great idea, put it someplace else,' " responded Wave spokesman Evan Zeppos. "But that's not how development works."

Wave would build the Marriott on a lot now occupied by two buildings: a four-story structure at 625 N. Milwaukee St., and a building with three to four stories in various sections that includes 627 N. Milwaukee St., 629-631 N. Milwaukee St., 327 E. Wisconsin Ave. and 319-323 E. Wisconsin Ave.

That site is attractive because it is near major employers, as well as the Milwaukee Art Museum and Maier Festival Park, appealing to business and leisure travelers, Zeppos said.

The Marriott's financing would come from foreign nationals solicited by Milwaukee-based RCI FirstPathway Partners LLC, Zeppos said. The investors are providing capital through the federal government's EB-5 program. That program provides foreign citizens residency in the United States in return for investments that create jobs.

Wave is not seeking public financing for the project, Zeppos said.

The hotel, which would include banquet space and a restaurant, is expected to cost $45 million to $50 million and would create 350 to 450 construction jobs, Zeppos said. Along with paying estimated annual taxes of $2.26 million, the hotel would provide 175 to 200 full-time jobs, he said.

The buildings to be razed were designated as historic several years ago through the creation of a historic district bordered by N. Water St., N. Milwaukee St., E. Wisconsin Ave. and E. Clybourn St.

If the Historic Preservation Commission denies permission to demolish the buildings, the developers can appeal to the Common Council. The commission could consider the request at its Nov. 15 meeting.

The building at 625 N. Milwaukee St. was built in 1870, according to assessment records, and is owned by Now! Milwaukee LLC, a group formed by developer Craig Stoehr. His group bought the 65,000-square-foot building in 2006 with plans to convert it into a mid-market hotel. It has been vacant for several years.

The other building was purchased in 2007 by MBI Properties LLC. Its only tenants are Downtown Books and Star Bar, which together lease 10,000 square feet within the 130,000-square-foot building, said Michael Levine, an MBI principal.

Built in 1865, many of the building's original features were altered over the years, eradicating its historic and architectural value, he said.

Levine said it would be too expensive to remodel the building to attract new tenants.

Bauman, however, cited several nearby 19th-century buildings in the 700 block of N. Milwaukee St. that were renovated in recent years and now house restaurants, stores, apartments and other uses.

He also noted that other downtown hotel proposals have surfaced recently. They include plans by First Hospitality Group Inc. to convert the Loyalty Building into a hotel, and Gorman & Co.'s proposal to convert a former Pabst brewery building into a 90-room extended stay hotel.

Bauman questioned whether enough demand exists to justify all three projects, and said the Marriott proposal could fall through after the buildings are razed.

http://www.jsonline.com/business/106572143.html

The most striking thing about the rendering
is that the railway exchange building looks awesome.

Otherwise kinda blah.
At worst I would keep the tall building where the 3 two story buidlings are
and DONOT knockdown where downtown books is,
DUMB, DUMB, why?
Because you arent putting a building up that is taller
and that has more value and it looks worse.
Those French mansard roofs are AWESOME.
Geez, cant believe some people, those are great buildings,
much more cost effective to fix them up and you
dont have many buildings like that anymore

I'll agree that the Milwaukee St. buildings are too nondescript to be worth preserving, but the Wisconsin Ave. ones still retain character, something which that side of the Marriott seems seriously lacking. (Kahler-Slater's work here in Madison shares that odd duality, i.e. a handsome library and classroom addition to the UW hospital, but dreary dormitory and office buildings on Park St.)
The Wisconsin Ave. side definitely deserves better.

(The Railway Exchange building, btw, is actually that reddish 11 story structure on the next block west. The building on this corner is the Johnson Bank, is it not?)

Agree with Mohammed abnd Looksee, if anything here is to happen...DO NOT tear down the Wisconsin Ave. buildings, the others...I could live without if they are hellbent on building at this location.

As for the Railway Exchange...I think he knew that, just commenting on how good it looks in the background.

Just one more thing, and this may be unfair, but the Wisconsin Ave. side of the rendering looks like it may be derived more than a bit from this corner of the Capitol Square here in Madison:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/looksee/Decorated%20images/derivative.jpg

*off topic posts deleted*

Does anyone have an update on the progress of The Moderne? I haven't heard anything about this in a while other than they were supposed to be breaking ground in November.

Does anyone have an update on the progress of The Moderne? I haven't heard anything about this in a while other than they were supposed to be breaking ground in November.

Yeah I was just thinking about that earlier today, last I heard the loan had gotten final approval and was just waiting to close...

D-Res here's an article (with renderings) on the construction you asked about:
http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2010/10/06/beerline-b-apartment-complex-to-break-ground-in-november-renderings/

Agree with Mohammed abnd Looksee, if anything here is to happen...DO NOT tear down the Wisconsin Ave. buildings, the others...I could live without if they are hellbent on building at this location.

As for the Railway Exchange...I think he knew that, just commenting on how good it looks in the background.

Nah, i messed up, but thanks for correction y'all.

Yeah, the Johnson and Railway xchange are cool though.
The one on corner is stunning and same with the railway xchange.
In chicago we have a nice old railway exchange building,
i think somewhere on michagan ave downtown.

http://media.jsonline.com/images/mjs-marriott.jpg


Really not digging this rendering, I say just leave this block alone until a more worthy development comes along, Why can't this Marriott development join forces with one of the proposed office towers and build a worthwhile building?

I agree with Miltown. I know I know, I was all for tearing it down, but that building looks worse than whats there, if that is possible. I still wouldn't mind getting them to tear it all down (didn't make it out to downtown books, ran into car trouble) but not for that. The 10 story structure isnt even ON Wisconsin Avenue!

Oh, and looks like the Transera is officially dead, if it wasn't already. http://www.jsonline.com/business/106660508.html

I know it's been posted already, but what's being built at the corner of Commerce and Pleasant? Driving past there today, there were several earth-movers preparing the site for construction. It's nice to see since that lot's sat barren for sooooo long.

that's my 'hood, yo!
actually, they started that the week before last i think. i'm kind of glad, although I always envisioned something even more grandiose for that corner on the river. i live up on Hubbard and, looking down to Commerce, I've contemplated that spot would've been so perfect for a museum of sorts... or some sort of other central civic building... i actually thought the *original* Michael Cudahy funded design for the Discovery World museum would have fit nicely on this block, but c'est la vie.

I'll keep you updated with snapshots of the construction, as well as images of the Moderne, when they break ground, since I bicycle past that everyday as well.

I had to laugh at the arrogance and condescending nature of the developer's comments in the article as well...

"I appreciate the alderman's comments, 'Great idea, put it someplace else,' " responded Wave spokesman Evan Zeppos. "But that's not how development works."


UMMMM.... sorry... that is EXACTLY HOW DEVELOPMENT WORKS!
we don't just build things here willy-nilly without involving the community and the local elected officials. it amazes me how there are certain people in the business community who still are so completely naive in that they think that our Great Objective should be unchecked Capitalism via the "invisible hand" of market forces. these are the nutjobs who formed the Teabagger Party and elected a college dropout as governor and a nepotistic salesman who thinks sunspots cause climate change as senator. pathetic.

Regarding the Marriott... It is a case of you can't have your cake and eat it, too. I agree that DT Books appears to be a nice little shop, but they occupy less than 10% of the building and all the others are vacant. I would love to somehow preserve just that store, but then I look at the jobs the Marriott would create. A couple hundred full time jobs, hundreds more during construction, a couple million in taxes collected per year. It is just hard for me to see how this doesn't outweigh the one shop that is already there worth saving.

Really not digging this rendering, I say just leave this block alone until a more worthy development comes along, Why can't this Marriott development join forces with one of the proposed office towers and build a worthwhile building?

Very uninspiring...reminds me of the Paper Valley Hotel in Appleton. While it looks nice in Appleton, it looks unimpressive in a city 10 times larger. I'd like to see this developer integrate his plans with one of the office buildings being floated to propose a significant mix-use building -- perhaps 25-35 stories. (Hint: Lake Point Tower)

Very uninspiring...reminds me of the Paper Valley Hotel in Appleton. While it looks nice in Appleton, it looks unimpressive in a city 10 times larger. I'd like to see this developer integrate his plans with one of the office buildings being floated to propose a significant mix-use building -- perhaps 25-35 stories. (Hint: Lake Point Tower)

And put said mixed use building on the parking lot across from the mid-tier airlines center.

Regarding the Marriott... It is a case of you can't have your cake and eat it, too. I agree that DT Books appears to be a nice little shop, but they occupy less than 10% of the building and all the others are vacant. I would love to somehow preserve just that store, but then I look at the jobs the Marriott would create. A couple hundred full time jobs, hundreds more during construction, a couple million in taxes collected per year. It is just hard for me to see how this doesn't outweigh the one shop that is already there worth saving.

Are you sure that Downtown Books only occupies 10% of the building? Sounds like you're another person who hasn't been there.

Everyone who hasn't been there...please GO this week.

Once you visit you'll see just how irreplaceable that place is.

Are you sure that Downtown Books only occupies 10% of the building? Sounds like you're another person who hasn't been there.

Everyone who hasn't been there...please GO this week.

Once you visit you'll see just how irreplaceable that place is.

yeah... I'm getting a little sick of non-residents taking lazy Google Maps tours of buildings and neighbourhoods and then weighing in on these topics, as though they've actually been there.

No offense, people, but get off your tuchuses and actually walk around these buildings and areas before forming an opinion about them...

/rant

I am not a non-resident. I just don't make a habit out of walking into dilapidated book stores.

I am not a non-resident. I just don't make a habit out of walking into dilapidated book stores.

The bookstore isn't dilapidated, although the building housing it definitely looks it. It's not a place that I go all the time, but I stop by every few months and it's almost always worth my time.

The place is well-kept and has a good collection of books/media... much better than Renaissance Books where it's more like trying to find a diamond in the rough.

I am not a non-resident. I just don't make a habit out of walking into dilapidated book stores.
Then you don't know what you're missing!:rock:

Renaissance Books is another treasure I hope we never lose. Yes, I can buy any book I can imagine on the internet, but good old bookstores are where I find things I didn't know existed.

They're like old hardware stores. You never know what you're going to find, but if you really need something unusual you won't get it in Home Depot.

I had to laugh at the arrogance and condescending nature of the developer's comments in the article as well...

"I appreciate the alderman's comments, 'Great idea, put it someplace else,' " responded Wave spokesman Evan Zeppos. "But that's not how development works."


UMMMM.... sorry... that is EXACTLY HOW DEVELOPMENT WORKS!
we don't just build things here willy-nilly without involving the community and the local elected officials. it amazes me how there are certain people in the business community who still are so completely naive in that they think that our Great Objective should be unchecked Capitalism via the "invisible hand" of market forces. these are the nutjobs who formed the Teabagger Party and elected a college dropout as governor and a nepotistic salesman who thinks sunspots cause climate change as senator. pathetic.

Yes, your last word describes your rant perfectly. :wink2:


*edit* OK... just wanted to add that I agree with you that we shouldn't knock down these buildings for this project unless they find a way to save the wisconsin ave facade OR improve the project itself drastically. However, the blithering in your posts is almost pushing me to the other side and supporting this project as is just to spite you.

Maybe you could tone it down a bit and not make everything political??

Coldwake, I'm sorry you voted for Walker and you were clearly offended by my reference to him and the powers that elected him on Tuesday, however you have to agree that Zeppos' suggestion that Alderman Baumann doesn't know how "development works", is entirely out of line, as it is NOT just the developer who decides on what kinds of developments we have in the city and where. This is why we have zoning laws. The government most certainly plays a pivotal role in development.

You gotta be kidding me...

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/106705698.html

if that really happens and the state doesn't reinvest that money into some sort of other rail project in Milwaukee or making the Hiawatha 220mph -- and if the state really loses that money.... that's it for Wisconsin. It will rank as the #1 suckiest state in the union and the exodus of intelligent, productive people away from here will be staggering.

I continually read about the "brain drain" that leaves our state year after year. As a young married professional who has a Masters degree and a wife who is about to complete her doctorate, we fit the "brains" that have grown up in Wisconsin and left. We have Milwaukee on our short list of places that we want to move to next, but I just can't help but be frustrated by the politicians in Wisconsin and Milwaukee. I think Bauman is a joke. His attitude toward everything is "yeah that's good, but you can't because blah blah blah" I mean the guy recently shut down a hot dog stand vendor for goodness sakes. Link (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/106307988.html)

This hotel development should be built, no questions asked. Get over the architectural value this buildings might have. The fact of the matter is they are worthless unless someone has an interest in them! This is exactly what Wisconsin Ave. needs! A development that generates possible foot traffic and patrons for a dying retail sector! How can you say no to this!

Now we have Walker running the show and we get to endure 4 years of pure sedentary nonsense. Walker has no plan other than to say "no" to everything that comes across his desk. (Yes I am aware that I don't actually know what his plans are, but I am making generalizations based on his tenure in Milwaukee)

This makes certainly doesn't make Milwaukee look like a progressive city that is attractive to someone considering moving there. Fortunately for me I love Milwaukee for more than its corrupt or inept politicians! I encourage those of you who do think Bauman wrong about his stance on this development to email him your thoughts! Please give me an argument for why we should not go forward with this Marriott proposal! And yes I have been to Downtown Books many times, I agree that it is a very nice eclectic little space, but to surpass hundreds of jobs and millions in tax revenue for a "cool" space that occupies an entire abandoned block is insane to me. You can't make the argument that there are "all these other surface lots either" The developer has studied the spot and determined it is the most profitable for them. Selfish, yes, but also rational for them. Don't you think if there was someone willing to rehab the building, a proposal would have come along. I mean how long have those buildings been vacant?

I still love MKE and WI, but right now I have to keep reminding myself of that fact. I've watched countless smart, talented, and valuable people leave our city because it does not support the creative class like other places.

I'm not sure what the last straw will be for me, but killing the train, or if for some reason the streetcar gets stymied... that may just do it. At some point, you have to see that there's hope --- you have to see some meaningful progress for this state & city to dream big. If we continue to beat back good ideas (that require a little courage, foresight, and investment), we'll simply fall further and further behind.

well put. i'm not sure how walker is going to find people to fill jobs at all the companies he thinks he is going to bring here if he doesn't make the state attractive to young workers. young workers look at quality of life and job opportunities, not taxes.

I still love MKE and WI, but right now I have to keep reminding myself of that fact. I've watched countless smart, talented, and valuable people leave our city because it does not support the creative class like other places.

I'm not sure what the last straw will be for me, but killing the train, or if for some reason the streetcar gets stymied... that may just do it. At some point, you have to see that there's hope --- you have to see some meaningful progress for this state & city to dream big. If we continue to beat back good ideas (that require a little courage, foresight, and investment), we'll simply fall further and further behind.

I'm with you, brother. I love MKE and WI too, but there seems to be a real lack of vision and civic ambition among those like Walker et. al. The interesting thing is that Milwaukee... on its own... is VERY strongly supportive of projects like the HSR and the streetcar. The city also supported Barrett and Feingold very heavily in the election on Tuesday. It was the outsiders, the exurbanites and suburbanites who determined this election, unfortunately. Milwaukee has always been a great, important, large city, but -- in the last 50 years at least-- has suffered from an immense amount of self depreciation. That has changed in the last 20 years within the city with so much new development exploding all over the downtown area and surrounding neighbourhoods, largely due to the Norquist administration as well as other progressive leaders in the city. Still, it's the negative attitude of the individuals who bitterly left the city for the suburbs... or who irrationally fear the city altogether that were the loud minority that won the Tuesday election. Ahh, if Milwaukee could just break off from the rest of the state... or shed its suburbs... It seems even Madison is suffering from this kind of anti-urban philosophy coming from its surrounding suburbs, as their RTA is now being threatened to be shut down and/or debilitated altogether, based on the elections from the city-hating suburbanites.

I don't know what the answer is, except that you and I and others like us need to keep fighting. Fighting for our city. Fighting to make it better, no matter what the wealthy McMansionite Republicans try to do to stop us. Remember: There's MORE of us. A LOT more. If Milwaukee county had had the same voter turnout as Waukesha county did on Tuesday, we wouldn't be talking about this... we'd be discussing the upcoming inauguration of governor Barrett instead...

Or if Milwaukee county and turned out like Dane County. Look at the breakdown for dane county (big turnout and consequently huge wins by democratic candidates there (70%-30% in favor of Feingold Feingold won all but 2 wards including rural and suburban. Supported numberous state politicians by huge margins and reelected a democrat to the house.)

Now we have Walker running the show and we get to endure 4 years of pure sedentary nonsense. Walker has no plan other than to say "no" to everything that comes across his desk. (Yes I am aware that I don't actually know what his plans are, but I am making generalizations based on his tenure in Milwaukee)


You should watch a video or read the script of his acceptance speach. It's very specific in his plans and he lays it out very well. I also like the part that they keep talking about where he said it's time for conservatives to put up or shut up. One thing that most people agree on, foes and allies alike, is that when Walker says he's going to do something... he probably will. (that sucks for the train... hopefully he doens't have any good options)

I agree on the self deprication aspect of Milwaukeeans and the surrounding areas. Working in a company that hires a talented workforce and running in circles of highly skilled "brains" I can attest that we have the ability to pull great young professionals from other areas. Best of all, those transplants love Milwaukee more then the born and raised.

A train here or a new building there won't change that view. Great jobs, good quality of life, and a way to enjoy the city (including groups like FUEL) are what makes this city so great for those transplants. We just... need to do more of it. And believe me, if we had the jobs, they will come. My girlfriend works at Kohls Corporate and half her team came from the chicago area and almost ALL of those people like living in Milwaukee better.

And by the way Max, the suburban residents outnumber the city residents so I'm not sure what you're talking about?? Besides, we shouldn't be so devisive and instead find ways to work with the suburbs to get things done... we'd all be better off.

I really don't think that ditching this train hurts Milwaukee's image. We benefit from having strong connections with Chicago. Anybody who has a negative view for not having a rail connection to Madison or streetcars of all things is acting a bit silly. Streetcars are nothing more than a trendier bus for the elitists in this city. Yes, yes I know that have some unique advantages, but in the end they do the same thing. As for the train, 79mph isn't going to wow anybody when they have ones that go 250.

You should watch a video or read the script of his acceptance speach. It's very specific in his plans and he lays it out very well. I also like the part that they keep talking about where he said it's time for conservatives to put up or shut up. One thing that most people agree on, foes and allies alike, is that when Walker says he's going to do something... he probably will. (that sucks for the train... hopefully he doens't have any good options)

Well I just did watch it...and apparently Wisconsin is open for business!

State halts work on train project

By Larry Sandler and Jason Stein of the Journal Sentinel

Updated: Nov. 4, 2010 4:34 p.m. |(746) Comments

The state Department of Transportation has told contractors on the high-speed rail line between Madison and Milwaukee to stop work on the federally funded project "for a few days," in the wake of rail opponent Scott Walker's victory in the governor's race, Transportation Secretary Frank Busalacchi said Thursday.

But contractors immediately started talking about laying off employees, and Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett hinted the city could consider legal action if a permanent shutdown of the line shortens the life of a Spanish-owned train manufacturing plant on the city's north side.

"At the governor's request, I have asked contractors and consultants working on the high speed rail project to temporarily interrupt their work for a few days," Busalacchi said in a written statement, referring to outgoing Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle.

I don't know that I would call vague statements like, "it's time for Wisconsin to work again" or "Wisconsin in open for business" clear plans. He did mention balancing the budget and expanding tax breaks for small businesses. I hope he proves me wrong, but I'm telling the guy has done nothing. Here is his list of accomplishments from his own website



Here are just a few of Scott's accomplishments as County Executive:

* Reduced the county workforce by more than About Scott20%
* Lowered the county debt by 10%
* Introduced 8 consecutive budgets without an increase to the property tax levy from the previous year.
* Improved the county's bond rating
* Milwaukee County Parks won the prestigious 2009 National Gold Medal for Excellence in the Park and Recreation Management Program
* Eliminated the waiting list for long-term care for older adults through the Family Care program.
* Milwaukee County's Mitchell International Airport received the Transportation Safety Administration's Partnership Award.
* Invested over $199 million in renovations and improvements to General Mitchell International Airport without increasing the property tax levy

I'm sure he had a BIG role in the invested that were made a Mitchell and Parks awards. (sarcasm intended) Reducing the county workforce is listed as an accomplishment! So let's see...he cut out 20% of his own people, and helped reduce the county debt by 10% Yippee! I encourage everyone on here to watch Scott Walker's great plans (http://www.wisn.com/r/25614750/detail.html)!

Why is it so political around here now? :)

Why is it so political around here now? :)


I know I fueled the fire....but it is the day after the election!

http://dailyreporter.com/blog/2010/11/04/marriott-developer-milwaukee-alderman-dispute-claim/

^^^^very....

Hey, I'm dude, longtime lurker, first-time poster.

Just wanted to say things maybe shouldn't be this violently political on a development board.

MilwaukeeMax, hate to say it, but the angrier you get in your posts, the more you sound like a sore loser. What happened to staying positive and looking for solutions to problems?

What does above dailyreporter article say btw?

MilwaukeeMax,
I am a non-resident so unfortunately I have not had the pleasure to visit. However, that will not keep me from sharing my opinion. Discussion boards like this are the proper forum for those opinions and all should be treated with respect even if you do not agree with them.

My reference for vacant buildings and DT Books only consuming 10% of its current building came from the same article where it mentioned job creation and tax revenue. I am not making this stuff up, but only laying out the facts I have gathered to present the other side of the argument. I still stand by this and believe it would be extremely foolish for Milwaukee to not support this new hotel. The benefits for outweigh the losses, and I am assuming that DT books would move to another location. If it is everything mentions it is, I have a hard time believing it is the building that accounts for 90% of the charm. Yes, it will play a part, but ownership, clientele, and general ambiance go a long way into making businesses feel welcoming and unique.

Ok so I thought some development photos might get us back on topic... so here's a couple of shot of Jackson Square Apartments which is still under construction in the Third Ward.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4089/5086374942_03a3c2645f.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davereid/5086374942/)
Jackson Square Apartments 4 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davereid/5086374942/) by davereid2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/davereid/), on Flickr

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4132/5085778077_323d2cd249.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davereid/5085778077/)
Jackson Square Apartments 3 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davereid/5085778077/) by davereid2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/davereid/), on Flickr

http://dailyreporter.com/blog/2010/11/04/marriott-developer-milwaukee-alderman-dispute-claim/
I'm not about to subscribe, so could you copy this, please? Thanks!:cheers:

I'm not about to subscribe, so could you copy this, please? Thanks!:cheers:

I don't have access to the reporter, but I think this is a very similar version of the story:

http://www.dolanmedia.com/view.cfm?recID=646166

Marriott developer, Milwaukee alderman dispute facade claim
by Marie Rohde
Dolan Media Newswires
MILWAUKEE, WI -- Milwaukee Alderman Robert Bauman hotly disputed a Marriott Hotel developer's claim that the city rejected plans for a historically sensitive facade restoration of two buildings the developer now wants to raze.
A spokesman for the developer, Jackson Street Management LLC, said the company studied retaining the historic facade of buildings at 319-325 and 327 E. Wisconsin Ave. before proposing demolition of the buildings and construction of a glassy, four-story main entrance for the 200-room hotel.
"This concept was proposed to an HPC (Historic Preservation Commission) member and (a city) planner with accompanying drawings," according to documents Jackson Street Management filed with the commission. "The rehabilitated face scheme was deemed inappropriate."
The proposed project would require razing five buildings in a historic district. That provides some protection for the buildings, all constructed between 1864 and 1899, according to records. The facades of all the buildings have been altered, according to the developer.
Bauman represents the district and is a member of the commission. He acknowledged he is probably the commission member referenced but denied he had rejected a plan that would restore the buildings.
"They are playing games," Bauman said. "I told them that if they have plans, they should bring them in. It's blatantly false that I rejected anything."
Bauman said he doubts the sincerity of the plans to preserve the facades of the two buildings and added that if the restoration was not done properly, it could result in a project that would be worse than razing the buildings. He questioned whether it would be economically feasible to retain the facades for a $50 million project.
"There's a $200 million project (along those lines) on Wabash Avenue in Chicago that is beautiful," Bauman said. "But I don't know if it can be done on a project this size and we saw no details, no set of plans."
Meanwhile, one neighbor of the proposed project offered support.
"I've seen preliminary plans and from my perspective, it's very respectful of the scale of our building," said Brad Quaid, president of Johnson Bank, 333 E. Wisconsin Ave. "It's good to see some investment in the neighborhood, something that will bring some traffic in."
The proposed Marriott will envelope the bank. The new hotel also will require the razing of three buildings in the 600 block of North Milwaukee Street.
The existing buildings, according to Evan Zeppos, the Jackson Street Management spokesman, could accommodate only 78 of the 200 guest rooms the developer wants and would not allow for public space, meeting rooms, a fitness center, swimming pool, a restaurant and bar or space needed for support administration and mechanical.
Zeppos said the developer is not seeking city financial assistance because it has a commitment from RCI First Pathway Partners, a local company that specializes in finding foreign investors for local projects. The developer will seek New Markets Tax Credits, which are given for projects in low-income census tracts.

I still love MKE and WI, but right now I have to keep reminding myself of that fact. I've watched countless smart, talented, and valuable people leave our city because it does not support the creative class like other places.

I'm not sure what the last straw will be for me, but killing the train, or if for some reason the streetcar gets stymied... that may just do it. At some point, you have to see that there's hope --- you have to see some meaningful progress for this state & city to dream big. If we continue to beat back good ideas (that require a little courage, foresight, and investment), we'll simply fall further and further behind.

I'm with you, the streetcar would be the last straw for me. I love this city, and it sickens me to see how wonderful it really could be without it being realized. As I'm starting my master's next fall at UWM, I'm very concerned with where Wisconsin will be in 4 years. I just might be added to the list of young, educated Wisconsinites to leave...

I hope not, but I'm not opposed to saying "hello Portland!"

I hope not, but I'm not opposed to saying "hello Portland!"

It's a wonderful city and we'd love to have you. I might add, we have streetcars AND light rail.

if that really happens and the state doesn't reinvest that money into some sort of other rail project in Milwaukee or making the Hiawatha 220mph -- and if the state really loses that money.... that's it for Wisconsin. It will rank as the #1 suckiest state in the union and the exodus of intelligent, productive people away from here will be staggering.

MMax, really? On the other hand, it can logically be debated, if the state rebuffs this ill-gotten booty from the feds, and says "NO" to out-of-control spending of money we're not even close to having, Wisconsin will be held up as a shining star. Walker's plan to keep companies (JOBS) in Wisconsin, while attracting new companies (JOBS), will prevent an exodus of intelligent, productive people away from here to states with more attractive business climates. This "Ghost Train" simply cannot be justified at this time.

I continually read about the "brain drain" that leaves our state year after year. As a young married professional who has a Masters degree and a wife who is about to complete her doctorate, we fit the "brains" that have grown up in Wisconsin and left. We have Milwaukee on our short list of places that we want to move to next, but I just can't help but be frustrated by the politicians in Wisconsin and Milwaukee. I think Bauman is a joke. His attitude toward everything is "yeah that's good, but you can't because blah blah blah" I mean the guy recently shut down a hot dog stand vendor for goodness sakes. Link (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/106307988.html)

This hotel development should be built, no questions asked. Get over the architectural value this buildings might have. The fact of the matter is they are worthless unless someone has an interest in them! This is exactly what Wisconsin Ave. needs! A development that generates possible foot traffic and patrons for a dying retail sector! How can you say no to this!

Now we have Walker running the show and we get to endure 4 years of pure sedentary nonsense. Walker has no plan other than to say "no" to everything that comes across his desk. (Yes I am aware that I don't actually know what his plans are, but I am making generalizations based on his tenure in Milwaukee)

This makes certainly doesn't make Milwaukee look like a progressive city that is attractive to someone considering moving there. Fortunately for me I love Milwaukee for more than its corrupt or inept politicians! I encourage those of you who do think Bauman wrong about his stance on this development to email him your thoughts! Please give me an argument for why we should not go forward with this Marriott proposal! And yes I have been to Downtown Books many times, I agree that it is a very nice eclectic little space, but to surpass hundreds of jobs and millions in tax revenue for a "cool" space that occupies an entire abandoned block is insane to me. You can't make the argument that there are "all these other surface lots either" The developer has studied the spot and determined it is the most profitable for them. Selfish, yes, but also rational for them. Don't you think if there was someone willing to rehab the building, a proposal would have come along. I mean how long have those buildings been vacant?

No offense, but if you represent the "brains" that are supposed to be a key element in Milwaukee's future, you're not welcome back here. Anyone with half a brain should be able to understand that just because you want something doesn't mean you can have it if you can't afford it. It reminds me of a child throwing a tantrum for something he/she wants, and the parent having to make the adult decision based on facts, not emotion.

It's not your fault that you belong to a generation even more addicted to immediate gratification than the Baby Boomers. You are a direct by-product of parents who want things better for their kids. The big difference is this: as me-oriented as Boomers were/are, we could/can still pay for it (even if it takes a while on credit). Younger folks like yourself have an even bigger appetite for things, but you have no idea how you're going to pay for it. You want it now, and you want it to become someone else's problem later.

My goodness, please think about how you rationalize your desire for the now. I'm not against progress, but when the state and country are so deep in the red we can't see straight, now is not the time to bury ourselves in more debt. The right time will occur for stuff. That time is not now.

I'm with you, brother. I love MKE and WI too, but there seems to be a real lack of vision and civic ambition among those like Walker et. al. The interesting thing is that Milwaukee... on its own... is VERY strongly supportive of projects like the HSR and the streetcar. The city also supported Barrett and Feingold very heavily in the election on Tuesday. It was the outsiders, the exurbanites and suburbanites who determined this election, unfortunately. Milwaukee has always been a great, important, large city, but -- in the last 50 years at least-- has suffered from an immense amount of self depreciation. That has changed in the last 20 years within the city with so much new development exploding all over the downtown area and surrounding neighbourhoods, largely due to the Norquist administration as well as other progressive leaders in the city. Still, it's the negative attitude of the individuals who bitterly left the city for the suburbs... or who irrationally fear the city altogether that were the loud minority that won the Tuesday election. Ahh, if Milwaukee could just break off from the rest of the state... or shed its suburbs... It seems even Madison is suffering from this kind of anti-urban philosophy coming from its surrounding suburbs, as their RTA is now being threatened to be shut down and/or debilitated altogether, based on the elections from the city-hating suburbanites.

I don't know what the answer is, except that you and I and others like us need to keep fighting. Fighting for our city. Fighting to make it better, no matter what the wealthy McMansionite Republicans try to do to stop us. Remember: There's MORE of us. A LOT more. If Milwaukee county had had the same voter turnout as Waukesha county did on Tuesday, we wouldn't be talking about this... we'd be discussing the upcoming inauguration of governor Barrett instead...

MMax, be careful what you wish for. Believe me, much of Wisconsin -- and certainly most of the other municipalities in Milwaukee County would love to see Milwaukee on its own. Consider what might happen to the city if it was an island. As for your mayor, now he will have an opportunity to actually work on solving Milwaukee's ills and developing it the way you want. Good luck with that.

I'd gladly take a Milwaukee island with Tom, than a Wisconsin island with Scott and Ron. It's a shame though that dividing ourselves is even a thought, even if it's just for the sake of argument.

Fairtrade, please be careful about generalizing the generations (or any other demographic). Age itself has nothing to do with how fiscally conservative or liberal you are. I know many people young and old that fall on both sides of the fence.

It is amazing to me that this train has gotten so controversial. I definitely see both sides of the argument, but being very analytical and budget-minded it is hard for me to grasp the ROI on this one. I understand progress regarding rail transportation is desired by some in this country, but the cost vs. benefit is hard for me to rationalize. What happens if the tracks get built and ridership is far below expectations? Would the line get shut down? Would it require even more taxpayer dollars to keep up? I know it is meant to be a first-leg and eventually Madison to Minneapolis, Milwaukee to GB, etc... I'm just not sure it is the right time. Like Fairtrade said, we need our government to be held accountable for spending just like the people.

Who knows, it could end up being a huge project and kick off rail transportation in the upper midwest, but I highly doubt it. I am usually all in favor of development of all shapes and sizes, but only if there is a way to pay for it.

As for your mayor, now he will have an opportunity to actually work on solving Milwaukee's ills and developing it the way you want. Good luck with that.

You actually bring up a good point. With Walker heading to Madison, Barrett may actually be able to get some things done, especially in regards to transportation. (streetcar, better bus service, etc).

Anyone with half a brain should be able to understand that just because you want something doesn't mean you can have it if you can't afford it. It reminds me of a child throwing a tantrum for something he/she wants, and the parent having to make the adult decision based on facts, not emotion.



I have to agree with you on this. We need to get the budget here on track and give this state/city a better business climate. People are claiming the sky is falling over what really vanity project that isn't truly needed at this time. I am a strong supporter of rail, but those are the facts. This train is a want, not a need. I would love to have it but I can see why many view this as an unnecessary expenditure at this time. The future of Milwaukee/Madison and economic growth isn't attached to this train.

Oh and for the record, Scott Walker is starting to show cracks in regards to this. He is quoted as saying his decision isn't final.

I am sure you are all aware of this, but my god are the JSOnline comments sections an utter nightmare. A few good posters with interesting takes mixed in with a horde of complete jackasses of both political leanings. I feel bad for Tom Daykin for having to deal with some of these assclowns.

For those that wanted the full article...

http://dailyreporter.com/files/2010/11/marriottrender.jpg

By Marie Rohde

Milwaukee Alderman Robert Bauman hotly disputed a Marriott Hotel developer’s claim that the city rejected plans for a historically sensitive facade restoration of two buildings the developer now wants to raze.

A spokesman for the developer, Jackson Street Management LLC, said the company studied retaining the historic facade of buildings at 319-325 and 327 E. Wisconsin Ave. before proposing demolition of the buildings and construction of a glassy, four-story main entrance for the 200-room hotel.

“This concept was proposed to an HPC (Historic Preservation Commission) member and (a city) planner with accompanying drawings,” according to documents Jackson Street Management filed with the commission. “The rehabilitated face scheme was deemed inappropriate.”

The proposed project would require razing five buildings in a historic district. That provides some protection for the buildings, all constructed between 1864 and 1899, according to records. The facades of all the buildings have been altered, according to the developer.

Bauman represents the district and is a member of the commission. He acknowledged he is probably the commission member referenced but denied he had rejected a plan that would restore the buildings.

“They are playing games,” Bauman said. “I told them that if they have plans, they should bring them in. It’s blatantly false that I rejected anything.”

Bauman said he doubts the sincerity of the plans to preserve the facades of the two buildings and added that if the restoration was not done properly, it could result in a project that would be worse than razing the buildings. He questioned whether it would be economically feasible to retain the facades for a $50 million project.

“There’s a $200 million project (along those lines) on Wabash Avenue in Chicago that is beautiful,” Bauman said. “But I don’t know if it can be done on a project this size and we saw no details, no set of plans.”

Meanwhile, one neighbor of the proposed project offered support.

“I’ve seen preliminary plans and from my perspective, it’s very respectful of the scale of our building,” said Brad Quaid, president of Johnson Bank, 333 E. Wisconsin Ave. “It’s good to see some investment in the neighborhood, something that will bring some traffic in.”

The proposed Marriott will envelope the bank. The new hotel also will require the razing of three buildings in the 600 block of North Milwaukee Street.

The existing buildings, according to Evan Zeppos, the Jackson Street Management spokesman, could accommodate only 78 of the 200 guest rooms the developer wants and would not allow for public space, meeting rooms, a fitness center, swimming pool, a restaurant and bar or space needed for support administration and mechanical.

Zeppos said the developer is not seeking city financial assistance because it has a commitment from RCI First Pathway Partners, a local company that specializes in finding foreign investors for local projects. The developer will seek New Markets Tax Credits, which are given for projects in low-income census tracts.

No offense, but if you represent the "brains" that are supposed to be a key element in Milwaukee's future, you're not welcome back here. Anyone with half a brain should be able to understand that just because you want something doesn't mean you can have it if you can't afford it. It reminds me of a child throwing a tantrum for something he/she wants, and the parent having to make the adult decision based on facts, not emotion.

It's not your fault that you belong to a generation even more addicted to immediate gratification than the Baby Boomers. You are a direct by-product of parents who want things better for their kids. The big difference is this: as me-oriented as Boomers were/are, we could/can still pay for it (even if it takes a while on credit). Younger folks like yourself have an even bigger appetite for things, but you have no idea how you're going to pay for it. You want it now, and you want it to become someone else's problem later.

My goodness, please think about how you rationalize your desire for the now. I'm not against progress, but when the state and country are so deep in the red we can't see straight, now is not the time to bury ourselves in more debt. The right time will occur for stuff. That time is not now.
Very, very well said. :cheers:

No offense, but if you represent the "brains" that are supposed to be a key element in Milwaukee's future, you're not welcome back here. Anyone with half a brain should be able to understand that just because you want something doesn't mean you can have it if you can't afford it. It reminds me of a child throwing a tantrum for something he/she wants, and the parent having to make the adult decision based on facts, not emotion.

It's not your fault that you belong to a generation even more addicted to immediate gratification than the Baby Boomers. You are a direct by-product of parents who want things better for their kids. The big difference is this: as me-oriented as Boomers were/are, we could/can still pay for it (even if it takes a while on credit). Younger folks like yourself have an even bigger appetite for things, but you have no idea how you're going to pay for it. You want it now, and you want it to become someone else's problem later.

My goodness, please think about how you rationalize your desire for the now. I'm not against progress, but when the state and country are so deep in the red we can't see straight, now is not the time to bury ourselves in more debt. The right time will occur for stuff. That time is not now.

No offense taken. If those with brains enough to form a rational opinion aren't "welcome" in "your" state then that's your loss. Based on your deductive reasoning, want I impulsively crave "now" is for a privately financed proposal to move forward on a block that has been abandoned for years. In addition, I suppose you could infer that I am favor of high speed rail, which is generally true. Regardless, I am aware of the many effects such decisions may create. To generalize my behavior as "throwing a tantrum" and lacking intelligence is a little extreme.

You assume that I have a "buy now, think later" mentality because of my age. Please don't make dramatic assumptions. My wife and I paid for our undergraduate, masters, and doctorate degrees without borrowing a penny from anyone. (Parents included) We both worked since we were fourteen. I think my argument for wanting the Marriott proposal is rational enough.

I think your statements encapsulate the mentality that makes those that are apparently "myopic" thinkers want to think twice about moving to Wisconsin. Oh wait, I forgot, people like "me" make decisions without thinking :)

"Fair" trade of thoughts? I thought my response was quite nice all things considered!

Does anyone know who will fill Scott Walker's role as head of Milwaukee county when he becomes governor? Hopefully that person can improve the relationship between county and city, and begin developing some of the county-owned properties.

http://dailyreporter.com/files/2010/11/marriottrender.jpg

Now that is what I am talking about, the best of both worlds, incorporating the old structure into a superstructure behind it. THIS is what should happen IMO.

Does anyone know who will fill Scott Walker's role as head of Milwaukee county when he becomes governor? Hopefully that person can improve the relationship between county and city, and begin developing some of the county-owned properties.
IIRC, County Board President Lee Holloway(sp?) will be acting executive until a special election is held in April, 2011.

Mike

In another blatant attempt to get us back to development... Yes there are a couple of projects underway in areas near downtown Milwaukee.

Photos from the Beerline B Apartments Construction

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1124/5149631164_0ec321f3e8.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davereid/5149631164/)
Beerline B Apartments Construction 1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davereid/5149631164/) by davereid2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/davereid/), on Flickr

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1419/5149620008_00bca4ec72.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davereid/5149620008/)
Beerline B Apartments Construction 3 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davereid/5149620008/) by davereid2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/davereid/), on Flickr

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1256/5149010701_99ecb5d329.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davereid/5149010701/)
Beerline B Apartments Construction 5 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davereid/5149010701/) by davereid2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/davereid/), on Flickr

No offense, but if you represent the "brains" that are supposed to be a key element in Milwaukee's future, you're not welcome back here. Anyone with half a brain should be able to understand that just because you want something doesn't mean you can have it if you can't afford it. It reminds me of a child throwing a tantrum for something he/she wants, and the parent having to make the adult decision based on facts, not emotion.

It's not your fault that you belong to a generation even more addicted to immediate gratification than the Baby Boomers. You are a direct by-product of parents who want things better for their kids. The big difference is this: as me-oriented as Boomers were/are, we could/can still pay for it (even if it takes a while on credit). Younger folks like yourself have an even bigger appetite for things, but you have no idea how you're going to pay for it. You want it now, and you want it to become someone else's problem later.

My goodness, please think about how you rationalize your desire for the now. I'm not against progress, but when the state and country are so deep in the red we can't see straight, now is not the time to bury ourselves in more debt. The right time will occur for stuff. That time is not now.

No offense, but the baby boomers are the ones who have gotten us into this mess, they have held the presidency since 1992. Don't think you can blame younger generations who have little to no decision-making power at this point. But anyway, this discussion should really be taking place in the HSR thread, not the Milwaukee Development thread.

Regarding the County Exec, there will be a special election to replace Walker, likely held in April 2011.

And it's great to see projects under construction and being proposed. It looks like things are finally starting to turn around!

I am sure you are all aware of this, but my god are the JSOnline comments sections an utter nightmare. A few good posters with interesting takes mixed in with a horde of complete jackasses of both political leanings. I feel bad for Tom Daykin for having to deal with some of these assclowns.
I hear that! I am about done with even reading the comments. Really sad.

No future as traditional mall for Grand Avenue, experts say
from The Business Journal - by Stacy Vogel Davis
Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 4:35pm CDT
Related:
Retailing & Restaurants

Bank of America has remained tight-lipped so far about its plans for The Shops of Grand Avenue, but retail experts and local officials seem to agree that the downtown property has no future as a traditional indoor shopping mall.
Several said they see the change in ownership as an opportunity to transform the site into a mixed-use building with limited retail on the street level and a focus on office, residential or cultural space above.
Bank of America, based in Charlotte, N.C., took control of the downtown mall late last month from New York City-based Ashkenazy Acquisition Corp. as a deed in lieu of foreclosure. The bank is the servicer on the $23.1 million mortgage Ashkenazy received in 2005 when it bought the mall. The bank has hired broker and management company Jones Lang LaSalle, Chicago, to manage the property and make recommendations on the mall.
Bank of America declined to comment, and a spokeswoman for Jones Lang LaSalle said it’s too early to discuss strategy.
The mall would have to attract a major destination retailer to have any hope of coming back as a successful enclosed mall, said Ross Koepsel, retail broker with Commercial Property Associates Inc., Milwaukee. He listed Woodman’s Food Markets, Bass Pro Shops and Costco Wholesale Corp. as examples of stores with regional appeal.
“Not that they’re going to get those tenants, and those tenants might not be a good fit, but they need to get tenants of that caliber,” he said. “Unfortunately, they’re never going to get a Nordstrom or Von Maur or Bloomingdale’s. That ship has sailed.”
Koepsel agreed with others that the owner should seriously consider non-retail uses, especially on the upper floors.
Although the mall was successful in its first few years in the late 1980s, it was a bad idea from the start, said Midge McCauley, principal with Washington, D.C.-based consulting firm Downtown Works. Downtown Works was hired by Milwaukee Downtown Business Improvement District 21 in 2008 to create a downtown retail strategy.
“Urban places or spaces get activity from the streets,” she said. “When you take people off the streets, and put them into a project that’s interiorly focused, it doesn’t have a long lifespan.”
But the property has great design features and could be a good space for small offices, particularly creative firms, or educational or cultural uses, such as rehearsal space for performing groups, she said.
The Milwaukee Ballet Co. is looking for downtown space for a new partnership with Froedtert & Medical College of Wisconsin and the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Peck School of the Arts that would include offices, rehearsal space and a sports medicine clinic. The company would like to find space in the North Water Street corridor near the Marcus Center for the Performing Arts, but at this point, it wouldn’t rule out other downtown space, said executive director Dennis Buehler.
Milwaukee Downtown has strived to promote downtown retail, but it has focused on storefront shopping, said Beth Nicols, executive director. Converting the upper floors of the mall to offices could be a better use for the space and bring young, creative professionals downtown, she said.
“Our new up-and-coming entrepreneurs are people who think differently from the baby boomers, and I think that space can really provide some fabulous, creative opportunities to us,” she said.


Read more: No future as traditional mall for Grand Avenue, experts say | The Business Journal

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/106621533.html

didnt see this posted and thought I would
just in case anyone here doesnt look at tom daykins development blog

I guess the building will be demolished, but
alot of the stuff of the building will be reused in the new structure
which is pretty cool I think.

http://www.cityfarmer.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/5storey.jpg



North side developments move ahead

By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel



Two separate developments planned for Milwaukee's northwest side, the expansion of a direct mail processor and the creation of a "vertical farm," were both recommended for zoning approval Monday by the city Plan Commission.

Integrated Mail Industries Ltd. plans to expand northward from its facility, at 3450 W. Hopkins St., on to a vacant parcel that was previously owned by Bee Bus Line Inc.

Integrated Mail has 125 employees, and it plans to add about 50 positions once the expansion is finished.

The expansion plans are proceeding nearly three years after the city Redevelopment Authority began eminent domain proceedings on the project site.

That occurred after Integrated Mail said it would be forced to leave Milwaukee if it couldn't expand, and said Bee repeatedly ignored its offers to buy the land.

Bee, Integrated Mail and the city later agreed to a land sale, which was completed on Feb. 15.

The parcels, at 3478 W. Hopkins St. and 4250 N. 35th St., were valued by a city appraisal at $215,000. Bee sold the parcels to Integrated Mail for $500,000, with the city providing $200,000.

Paying the higher price avoided the likelihood of a long court battle if Bee had appealed the initial $300,000 purchase offer, according to the Department of City Development.

In the other project, Growing Power Inc. plans to develop a 34,000-square-foot, five-story building at the group's urban farm, 5500 W. Silver Spring Drive.

The building, including a greenhouse, would be used to produce fresh vegetables, and include tanks to raise perch and other fish. It also would feature training facilities, staff offices, a demonstration kitchen and retail market.

Growing Power, a nonprofit group, is raising money for the $8 million to $10 million project. The group trains around 1,000 urban farmers annually, and it doesn't have enough office or training space for its expanding operations, said Will Allen, Growing Power founder.

The group has 52 employees, and it plans to add another 50 employees over the next year, Allen said. If it can raise the money, the group hopes to complete the project in 2012.

After the meeting, Allen said one of Growing Power's latest ventures, a fresh produce market at 2719 N. King Drive, will likely open in early January.


I think this is a really cool concept. Kudos to Allen for pushing this!

agreed! This looks like a real nice project for the city and the area. Will Allen is a good guy to have representing Milwaukee.

http://www.cityfarmer.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/5storey.jpg

I think this is a really cool concept. Kudos to Allen for pushing this!

He's a great guy this is a great project!!

http://www.jsonline.com/newswatch/106999783.html

Not sure how I feel about this. One one hand, I think a soccer field and lacrosse field would be a neat addition to downtown, I am not sure I like the idea of another parking structure being built. With all the anti-public transportation movement in the area, I cannot say it wont be used, but I would really much rather not have to build another parking ramp.

Then again, it is vacant land, and would I rather have it built on? So ya, up in the air on this one.

Oh, and maybe I am recalling the area wrong, but is the parcel of land they are talking about really that hilly. I know directly north of the Kern Center it isn't, but I cannot speak for the entire lot. But from water towards the first building on that lot, it is rather flat if i recall. So this sounds like it is going to be one large, low parking structure. Hope it doesnt take up that entire parcel of land.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/106931768.html

Hope it doesnt take up that entire parcel of land.

^^
The 2.5-acre parcel, which is bordered by N. Water St., E. Knapp St. and N. Broadway, has separate tracts owned by Milwaukee County and Marshall and Ilsley Corp.

MSOE would apparently buy the entire parcel...

So the article alludes to them purchasing the whole parcel, but it's pretty massive. If the entire thing became a parking structure, that'd be a shame. It'd be twice the size of the kern center itself:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=43.047448,-87.909449&spn=0.003175,0.004823&t=h&z=18

In another blatant attempt to get us back to development... Yes there are a couple of projects underway in areas near downtown Milwaukee.

Photos from the Beerline B Apartments Construction

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1124/5149631164_0ec321f3e8.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davereid/5149631164/)
Beerline B Apartments Construction 1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davereid/5149631164/) by davereid2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/davereid/), on Flickr

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1419/5149620008_00bca4ec72.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davereid/5149620008/)
Beerline B Apartments Construction 3 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davereid/5149620008/) by davereid2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/davereid/), on Flickr

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1256/5149010701_99ecb5d329.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davereid/5149010701/)
Beerline B Apartments Construction 5 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davereid/5149010701/) by davereid2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/davereid/), on Flickr

I wish the thread had more of this.......

New $30 Million parking garage (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/106999783.html?page=2#comments)
MSOE plans $30 million parking structure, athletic field in Park East
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel

Nov. 9, 2010 5:43 p.m.

Milwaukee School of Engineering plans to build a $30 million parking structure, topped with an athletic field, in downtown's Park East area, the college announced Tuesday.

It looks like someone is finally interested in buying some of the county's Park East property. This could be a breakthrough for Walker, just as he is planning on tearing down a different parking garage downtown with a park on top, someone else is going to build one. I am going to be very interested in seeing the renderings on this project. I hope they are able to do something with the facade so it doesn't totally kill the sidewalk.

Here are some other articles on the Park East parking garage:
http://www.biztimes.com article on MSOE parking Structure (http://www.biztimes.com/daily/2010/11/9/msoe-plans-parking-structure-athletic-field-in-park-east-corridor)

http://www.bizjournals.com Article (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2010/11/09/msoe-proposes-30-million-project.html)

http://media.jsonline.com/images/msoe111010.jpg

I am sorry, but what an eyesore. I would much rather just have the empty lot sit there, because when a worthwhile project for that location finally comes along it wont have to deal with the red tape of destroying that 2.5 acre, entire city block consuming eyesore. What are they thinking?

The MSOE parking garage/athletic field/park proposal could actually be a benefit for the Park East Corridor.

First, there will be public parking spaces available--more than what's on the current surface lot. The biggest benefit to the parking, however, is that it'll be a centralized facility within the corridor. That means developers of adjacent parcels (when they finally happen) won't have to shell out so much money for parking in their own projects...thereby reducing the costs for their projects...thereby increasing the likelihood of getting financing and something actually built in the area. Remember that one of the big hang-ups for the previous proposals in the area (the RSC proposals) was the money needed to build parking garages. With this MSOE proposal, that becomes less of an issue for them.

This shared parking concept has been used successfully elsewhere around town. The Third Ward has two centralized mixed-use parking garages that benefit many of the surrounding offices, shops, restaurants, and residences in that neighborhood. The MSOE garage will also have some ground floor retail space.

The other, more obvious benefit, is MSOE gets some athletic spaces it needs. Plus, the field will be used by youth sporting groups too.

The third benefit is the public park at the north end of the block that MSOE wants to build...and maintain. The City had plans to build a park there anyway, and would've had to spend its own money to do so, and then spend money to maintain it. Now MSOE will be doing it instead with its own money.

http://media.jsonline.com/images/msoe111010.jpg

It looks this rendering faces south east. Judging by the angle of this rendering, I think it shows a new extension of market street extending north one block, presumably to water street. Then there would be a new parcel to the west of this garage with water st frontage on the bend. I am guessing msoe would not be developing that new lot. I did not see any mention of this in the js article, though.

I think this will help the area, esp that parcel since it so shaped so awkardly.

Does anybody know the deal with the building on the corner of Juneau and Water? Its been sitting in a state of flux for what seems over a year. I can't even remember what it was supposed to be... extended stay hotel? It looks so close to being finished, at least the exterior.

I am sorry, but what an eyesore. I would much rather just have the empty lot sit there, because when a worthwhile project for that location finally comes along it wont have to deal with the red tape of destroying that 2.5 acre, entire city block consuming eyesore. What are they thinking?

Wow, you are for the wrong projects
and against the wrong ones too.

This is very cool, Parking in the city
is a necessary evil, but this atleast makes it
look cool and gives people a place to have fun.
AND you have more foot traffic, and it doesnt look
like a good place to dump a body.

Gotta say I like it. For the size of the lot I think it would have been one of the toughest in the Park East to fully develop. The public park is a huge bonus and I think this will make the area much more enticing to potential developers. It's turning a huge gravel field and surface lot into a bunch of green space with (as Markitect mentioned) protected parking in place for area businesses and potential developments.

And let's face it, the fact that it will not required any financing from the city of county is huge!

I HATE HATE HATE parking structures...

...but this one sure is nice. Extending Market St and adding that park on Water are great ideas. And it will really help MSOE feel like a real campus with that nice looking field.

My only gripe is the lack of commercial space along the West, and presumably, South space. Sure it would take some parking away, but active edges will give back so much more to the streetscape.

When I first read this release, I was not very happy about another ugly parking garage coming to downtown. But I think the rendering looks reasonable, and Markitect and others are right when they say that has the potential to release other developers from building parking, particularly on that odd shaped parcel right next door (to the west).

On a side note, what was going to go on the northern half (North of Homeland Security) of the parcel to the east of the proposed structure....was this where that NLE condo development was going to go? Google maps still has buildings there on their satellite image, and I'm wondering why those were torn down just to put up a for sale sign and a big hole in the ground.

Never mind, found it: http://engberganderson.com/#/portfolio/projecttype/7/54/ (http://engberganderson.com/#/portfolio/projecttype/7/54/)...man would that have been a nice complex...but I guess it would have likely been another Park Lafayette or Staybridge Suites situation, so its probably a good thing it didn't get built.

Just out of curiousity, if all cars were powered by batteries or hydrogen or monkey farts instead of petroleum, would youse still consider them evil?

Because, whatever it takes, cars are never going away. The idea of forcing people into mass transit is totalitarian.

So there will be cars and there will be a need to park them conveniently. That does not mean park and ride lots on the edge of town.

I think this MSOE project is brilliant.

Now I wonder what will happen with the portion of the parcel that will be east of what looks like an extended Market St. It's nice that the frontage on Water St. itself will still seemingly be open to a mid/high rise development.

...
Never mind, found it: http://engberganderson.com/#/portfolio/projecttype/7/54/ (http://engberganderson.com/#/portfolio/projecttype/7/54/)...man would that have been a nice complex...but I guess it would have likely been another Park Lafayette or Staybridge Suites situation, so its probably a good thing it didn't get built.

That was a nice proposal. Staybridge might still be in trouble, but at least Park Lafayette has seen a lot of new residents since ownership was shifted.

Just out of curiousity, if all cars were powered by batteries or hydrogen or monkey farts instead of petroleum, would youse still consider them evil?

Because, whatever it takes, cars are never going away. The idea of forcing people into mass transit is totalitarian.

So there will be cars and there will be a need to park them conveniently. That does not mean park and ride lots on the edge of town.

I think this MSOE project is brilliant.

Is there a shortage of parking in that area now?

http://media.jsonline.com/images/msoe111010.jpg

This looks like another good project! The idea of a raised/rootop sports field always seemed cool to me after seeing one in Tokyo in the first Fast and the Furious movie. It's too bad MSOE couldn't add a few stories of class space, offices, dorms etc. with the field even higher up to get more use of this space. Then again, I suppose that would be too large and expensive of a building!

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/7889/tokia.jpg (http://img535.imageshack.us/i/tokia.jpg/)

At first glance of this project,I had concerns over lack of retail and the structure being somewhat monolithic. Extending Market St and splitting the parcel in half would then open the Water St. land to other development. Markitect makes a good point by this having a positive effect on neighboring parcels down the line (hopefully the downtown movie theater) with ample parking and nice green space. The one things I am curious about is why no place to sit and how many misfired soccer balls will be flying into traffic! :lol:

Extending Market St and splitting the parcel in half would then open the Water St. land to other development.

By the way, the Market Street extension/breaking up this block has always been in the City's Park East redevelopment plan.

By the way, the Market Street extension/breaking up this block has always been in the City's Park East redevelopment plan.

Yeah, I never noticed that looking at the interactive Park East map on the City's website. Sounds like a good plan allowing the portion facing Water St. (or at least most of it) to be developed with attractive, vibrant structures with this sitting behind them. Perhaps something that compliment the rest of Water St. and the proposed movie theater. Another upside of this is that a parking garage provides a sense of security for those parking their cars here, especially the people who come down there at night going to the bars. I have no facts to back that up but I have a feeling people would feel more comfortable with that than leaving their car out in an open lot.

I think the one only really strong positive thing about this development is that it will break up the block and make the remainder of the block easier to develop. In addition it will serve as a nice project to divide up the undeveloped portion of the Park East so that it isn't so visually empty.

Just out of curiousity, if all cars were powered by batteries or hydrogen or monkey farts instead of petroleum, would youse still consider them evil?

Because, whatever it takes, cars are never going away. The idea of forcing people into mass transit is totalitarian.

So there will be cars and there will be a need to park them conveniently. That does not mean park and ride lots on the edge of town.

I think this MSOE project is brilliant.

...and what would you call the idea of forcing people into using cars. Some of us want options.


To answer your question, my biggest problem with cars is not the environmental damage they cause. Rather, it's that most car owners fail to engaged with their surroundings. They tend to live life by going from place to place and never experience the world in between. As a result, these people lose touch of the intimate qualities of spaces. Suddenly destroying a beautiful place happens without thought.

So, until people recognize the multi-faceted nature of our world...I will be pissed about new parking structures.

Maybe Walker wasn't the only problem. It seems like one or two influential politicians control these major committees that ultimately determine the fate of perfectly reasonable projects. I am very interested to see how the Historic Preservation Committee handles the Marriott development on Monday. This MSOE project also has an interesting road ahead of it. If these the Historic Preservation Committee and County Board respectively red light these projects, does that in essence kill the project?


Milwaukee County officials poke holes in MSOE project (UPDATE)

By Marie Rohde

Milwaukee County officials are throwing cold water on the Milwaukee School of Engineering’s proposal to build a $30 million parking structure and athletic field in the Park East corridor.

“I have concerns,” said County Supervisor Theo Lipscomb, acting chairman of the committee that would have to approve the sale of the land to the school. “A garage and a soccer field is kind of underwhelming for that land.

“Just because we’re in an economic downturn doesn’t mean we should accept the first thing that comes along.”

MSOE wants to buy 2.5 acres in the Park East corridor, land vacated by the razing of the Park East freeway spur in 2003. The proposed development is across the street from the school’s indoor athletic facility, the Kern Center, 1245 N. Broadway.
The Milwaukee School of Engineering intends to build an in-ground parking structure topped by an athletic field in the Park East Corridor in Milwaukee. (Rendering courtesy of MSOE/Uihlein-Wilson Architects)

The Milwaukee School of Engineering intends to build an in-ground parking structure topped by an athletic field in the Park East Corridor in Milwaukee. (Renderings courtesy of MSOE/Uihlein-Wilson Architects)

MSOE President Hermann Viets disputed the contention that the proposal would not be the best use for the property, saying that the extra parking is a $10 million gift to the community that will attract other construction.

“We are talking about building an awful lot of parking that we do not need and that will spur development,” Viets said. “When Manpower came to downtown Milwaukee, the issue was parking. The issue in development is always parking and everyone knows that building parking is a (financial) loser.”

In order to attract development, government is often asked to provide parking, he said. Putting the two-story garage below an athletic field has another advantage.

“You need to break up these big blocks of development, especially if you are trying to attract hotels,” Viets said. “What would you rather look out your window at? Another hotel or a soccer field?”

The city of Milwaukee broadly defines the Park East corridor as a 64-acre tract on the north end of downtown. Demolition of the Park East was deemed a rare opportunity to expand business and condominium development. The economic downturn intervened, and while proposals get floated and one parcel for a hotel sold, no one has built on the land where the freeway stood.

But Lipscomb said other nearby developments, particularly condominiums, are “high value, high impact” projects.

“To think we are going to be excited about this is premature,” he said. “What do we think we’re getting? The decisions we make today will last for a very long time.”

He also said the proposal conflicts with the city of Milwaukee’s development plan for the area because it calls for mixed-use development, not an athletic field.

Still, Mayor Tom Barrett and Rocky Marcoux, commissioner of the city’s Department of City Development, welcomed MSOE’s proposal.

Marcoux praised MSOE as a major asset to the city, noting the project would bring major construction to the area.

“When things got tough downtown, they didn’t put on wheels and move,” Marcoux said. “Their project will put a face on the Park East. It’s a landmark.”

Marcoux said the city wants mixed-use development for the rest of the land. The city’s development plan, he said, envisions a number of three- to four-story office, retail, restaurant and living space buildings.

The redevelopment, he said, will not be “mega block buildings,” but small construction that will not need city financing.

To accomplish that for the rest of the Park East, Marcoux suggested the city should take over the marketing of the portion of the property owned by the county, saying the city has the infrastructure to do the job, and the county does not.

Harold Mester, spokesman for the Milwaukee County Board, said Marcoux had broached the subject in the past.

“County Board Chairman Lee Holloway has said he’s willing to entertain the idea,” Mester said. “But he said that if the city wants to do that, they should make an offer to buy the land.”

Mester said Holloway shares Lipscomb’s skepticism of MSOE’s proposed parking structure and athletic field.

“He’s unable to respond because MSOE did not go through the normal channels,” Mester said on Holloway’s behalf. “He said that if MSOE had consulted him ahead of time, they may have won his support to shepherd the project through the county process.”

And it will really help MSOE feel like a real campus with that nice looking field.

One thing to keep in mind is that a majority of people will never see the green soccer field, especially from the street. The only people who will see it are the ones using it or on the higher floors in adjacent buildings.

One thing to keep in mind is that a majority of people will never see the green soccer field, especially from the street. The only people who will see it are the ones using it or on the higher floors in adjacent buildings.

It's a very strange choice to put a soccer field on top of a parking structure. It completely separates the action from the park and street.

The aerial drawing makes it look cool, but nobody will be able to see it. It will just be another parking structure.

It's a very strange choice to put a soccer field on top of a parking structure. It completely separates the action from the park and street.

The aerial drawing makes it look cool, but nobody will be able to see it. It will just be another parking structure.

The site is sloped. You'll be able to see the field from the corner of Knapp/Broadway...which is also where the main entrance to the athletic facility will be located.

He also said the proposal conflicts with the city of Milwaukee’s development plan for the area because it calls for mixed-use development, not an athletic field.

Supervisor Lipscomb ought to read the Park East Redevelopment Plan. All of the uses in MSOE's proposal (parking structures, outdoor recreation, and sports facilities) are allowable land uses for this site, with a special use permit from the City.

correct me if i'm wrong, Markitect, but didn't the city adopt a mandate that all new parking structures built downtown include some sort of street-level retail or mixed-use development? that's what the whole fuss was about with the US Bank parking structure, anyway.

also, from the renderings, it appears there is no seating at all for spectators... where will people sit who wish to watch matches on this pitch during match days? it seems awfully extravagant for just a practice field...

@Markitect Umm I believe it conflicts with the plan as it does not meet the minimum height requirements (min 4 stories I believe).

@Markitect Umm I believe it conflicts with the plan as it does not meet the minimum height requirements (min 4 stories I believe).

Sup. Lipscomb's claim wasn't about building heights, it was about land use. The point is, his statement on that is factually incorrect.

The PE plan does call for a minimum height of 4 floors at this particular site...but developers can ask, and they can be granted changes for that.

that all new parking structures built downtown include some sort of street-level retail or mixed-use development?

There is street-level retail space in MSOE's proposal.

Is there a shortage of parking in that area now?

Sometimes you have to build parking before something worth driving to.
Also all those soccer nuts need a place to park.


There is street-level retail space in MSOE's proposal.

Is there going to be retail in the ground level of parking lot?
Looks like there could be, but its hard to tell in the picture.
That would be cool

I say just build it! I hate parking structures for the most part...but the Park East needs something built. It has been years since the freeway was torn down and nothing is there. Maybe this would at least spark some additional development.

While I like the idea of street level retail on the parking ramp, I don't think it is very practical. The only street it would be possible to have street level retail is less than 2 blocks long, which means there will be minimal traffic past it. In addition 2 other sides of the ramp will have sloping streets which would make street level retail very hard, and the 4th side fronts on a park so while it has a nice view it has only limited access to capture passing traffic, and receiving any sort of delivery might be hard.

I do think that overall this is a good project because it does create potential for large scale future development on the lot between Water St, and the new extension of Market Street and the increased parking will make it easier to develop a taller structure with less need for parking on the lots which are fronting Water Street. I could really see a tower being built west of the parking lot in a few years with possibly a sky-walk connecting the two, and the tower only having minimal underground parking with tons of street level retail fronting on Water Street.

In addition I like the idea of a public park which does not need any taxpayer support for maintenance or construction. That is a win-win situation for the city and it will make the area more attractive to developers as well.