That's a sweet book and I want it, but it is expensive. The lowest price I have is $55. Oh well, not anytime soon.

keep checking amazon used books and ebay. I found it on there for about $40-- again, not cheap, but since it's so rare, I think definitely worth it.

you could also check and see if the Milwaukee Public Library or your local library has a copy-- I checked out a copy via interlibrary loan before I decided I wanted to buy it.

It's from years worth of following a curiosity of mine, miltown. I had heard rumours of a partially-built subway in Milwaukee and finally found all the research and images in the difficult-to-find book
TM The Milwaukee Electric Railway and Light Company by Joseph M. Canfield

It's seriously a very difficult book to find and is long out of print but it has hundreds and hundreds of pages of history and photography of the old Milwaukee Electric rail lines... everything from the single car trolleys and interurban rail to the subway photos above.

since you asked, yes... I have another relevant photo of one of the elevated stations along the rapid transit line that was being built in the 1930s in Milwaukee...
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a81/Maximilian77/23d4d905.jpg

Thanks! This is really cool, And yes if you read that plan, it does have subway portions just like many other major subway/rail systems around the country - part underground part above ground - I wish we could've had an advocate dedicated to mass transit after the great depression and after WWII.

since you asked, yes... I have another relevant photo of one of the elevated stations along the rapid transit line that was being built in the 1930s in Milwaukee...
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a81/Maximilian77/23d4d905.jpg

Actually, this is the old Soldier's Home Station on the original interurban line through the West Side. It pre-dates the line's Rapid Transit conversion done in the 1920s. It was demolished for that project, because the grade was changed in that area. The replacement station was in an open cut.

let's not forget, however, that Milwaukee actually had plans for/began to build a subterranean rail line as well. There was one station constructed near the current Grand Avenue mall but the tunnel and all its infrastructure were destroyed at the time of the construction of 794

Nope. There were no subterranean stations ever constructed. There was one proposed, essentially to go beneath the Public Service Building (the only station that would have been in the tunnel) but they never got that far. Really only about a half-a-block of subway tunnel was built (cut-and-cover style) of the 5-6 block long proposed subway.


http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a81/Maximilian77/ee0b961d.jpg
Subway construction east of N. 8th Street, taken July 30, 1930.

Wrong caption for this photo. This wasn't the subway section at 8th Street. This is the open-air cut (no plans to cover), looking east from 15th Street.

CGII: I think you're misunderstanding me. you hypothetically proposed giving me $3 billion and asked me what type of transit I would use it for. Metro Rail is the crème de la crème of intra-urban mass transit (well, maybe maglev is, although that's probably more inter-urban). I don't think you'll find any city with light rail or street cars that wouldn't trade their system in for a faster metro rail system (remember, metro rail doesn't necessarily mean subway), if cost wasn't an issue--
Still, light rail is PRETTY GOOD as a substitute, even though it goes slower and has less capacity than the metro rail equivalent. I would be more than happy to have light rail in Milwaukee. Indeed, I think it's really as good as we can ever realistically hope for here-- but my original point was that subterranean stations are preferable in a climate like this-- even if you can only put them in the city centre and at more important stops (like the airport or intermodal station, etc).
I'm definitely a proponent of the streetcar but it shouldn't be the end-goal for Milwaukee transit efforts. The streetcar really only serves short distance trips in the vicinity of downtown (east side, bay view, westtown). It can't realistically connect more far flung communities the way metro rail or even light rail can. You're only going to be able to get a few miles out of a streetcar and that's fine, but I don't think it's realistic to propose connecting the streetcar to the airport or Mayfair Mall for instance. You need a more rapid, dedicated rail system for that-- one that operates on its own track without street lights and traffic to contend with. The streetcar is a good step but it's not going to make the same kind of impact that metro rail or light rail will.

Are you aware of any cities in recent history (let's say 10 years) that have built or are building their very first metro style rail line? The newest one I can think of is the BART in SF.

in the US only or worldwide? there are several in asia...
I think this conversation has gotten away from me. I'm not saying Milwaukee has any chance of building a metro rail system in the near future, it's just that it is the ideal mass system imo... the "light" version of this is LRT and Milwaukee very much should be trying to build this.

Are you aware of any cities in recent history (let's say 10 years) that have built or are building their very first metro style rail line? The newest one I can think of is the BART in SF.


I assume you mean in the US. Tren Urbano in San Juan, Puerto Rico, in 2004. AFAIK, most recent heavy rail system new start in the 50 states was the LA subway in 1993.

Honolulu is building a new elevated rail system which will be third-rail powered and automated, and designed by the company which did the one in Copenhagen.

DC Metro was built since BART.

CGII: I think you're misunderstanding me. you hypothetically proposed giving me $3 billion and asked me what type of transit I would use it for. Metro Rail is the crème de la crème of intra-urban mass transit (well, maybe maglev is, although that's probably more inter-urban). I don't think you'll find any city with light rail or street cars that wouldn't trade their system in for a faster metro rail system (remember, metro rail doesn't necessarily mean subway), if cost wasn't an issue--
Still, light rail is PRETTY GOOD as a substitute, even though it goes slower and has less capacity than the metro rail equivalent. I would be more than happy to have light rail in Milwaukee.

I just want to make a quick point here in the metro rail versus light rail debate going on.
Yes, in theory metro rail has a higher top speed than light rail, however this higher top speed does not come into play as much as most people think. If a rail transit system has a stop every mile lets say than the metro rail train does not have the time to take advantage of it's higher top speed. In these cases light rail and metro rail achieve the same lower speed and so is it really worth the additional cost to build a metro rail system in these cases?
Also another one of the supposed advantages of metro rail is the ability to carry larger numbers of people by coupling more cars together. However nowdays light rail vehicles can be coupled together in longer trains so this advantage is kind of moot as well.
After looking at these two points and also factoring in that most light rail is now grade seperated I am not quite sure why any medium sized city would ever consider building the more expensive metro rail when they can get more bang for their buck constructing light rail or in Milwaukee's case possibly even streetcars.

if someone theoretically handed me 3 billion dollars tomorrow I would NOT build 150 miles of streetcars (because that does not make sense). I would actually build as many miles of metro rail as I could (because it's faster than light rail) with a couple of stations downtown underground, if possible.


yes, metro rail is the best and only type of mass transit intraurban rail any city ever needs. some cities don't choose it because it is more expensive, so they opt for the slower light rail or the even slower streetcars.

One more quick question, sorry I forgot to include this in my last post. If metro rail is so superior to light rail than how come a city like Boston which does have several lines on heavy metro rail continues to employ light rail/streetcars on their highly sucessfull Green Line?
It obviously must make some sense in this case not to replace it with metro rail and run more of the line underground, which some of the line does. I just think your broad statement about metro rail being the only smart/superior way to move people with rail transit is not always the case.

I don't want this to be a "metro rail or bust" argument-- I'm not sure how this turned into an argument to begin with, actually-- but I agree with you that LRT is almost as good as metro rail.. it's just a little slower and doesn't have the same capacity and therefore isn't quite as good for long distance trips as metro rail, but it's still really amazingly great as a mass transit option. let me go on record as saying that I LOVE LIGHT RAIL... make no mistake about that. Realistically, I want Milwaukee to have light rail more than anything else, but I think you'll find that while metro rail and light rail may be in the same category as one another, streetcars are quite in a different category than LRT or metro rail. I think that streetcars serve a definite purpose but cannot provide the same function that metro rail or light rail can provide. streetcars are much slower, must contend with traffic, street intersections and any other street activities and do not offer the permanent types of stations with platforms that light rail or metro rail offer. This is a big deal if you're talking about building a viable system with long distance extensions to the airport and to the suburbs. The streetcar isn't made for that purpose and, unless there is some sort of streetcar/light rail hybrid that we can implement, Milwaukee is going to need to build its own dedicated LRT system in the future in addition to the planned streetcar (which will function well for shorter distances).
On this point, does anyone know of any cities that have a system like this in place? A rail system where the trains travel on the streets as streetcars part of the time but on dedicated tracks between platformed stations as light rail the rest of the time? Does anything like this even exist? Is it even possible?

I don't want this to be a "metro rail or bust" argument-- I'm not sure how this turned into an argument to begin with, actually-- but I agree with you that LRT is almost as good as metro rail.. it's just a little slower and doesn't have the same capacity and therefore isn't quite as good for long distance trips as metro rail, but it's still really amazingly great as a mass transit option. let me go on record as saying that I LOVE LIGHT RAIL... make no mistake about that. Realistically, I want Milwaukee to have light rail more than anything else, but I think you'll find that while metro rail and light rail may be in the same category as one another, streetcars are quite in a different category than LRT or metro rail. I think that streetcars serve a definite purpose but cannot provide the same function that metro rail or light rail can provide. streetcars are much slower, must contend with traffic, street intersections and any other street activities and do not offer the permanent types of stations with platforms that light rail or metro rail offer. This is a big deal if you're talking about building a viable system with long distance extensions to the airport and to the suburbs. The streetcar isn't made for that purpose and, unless there is some sort of streetcar/light rail hybrid that we can implement, Milwaukee is going to need to build its own dedicated LRT system in the future in addition to the planned streetcar (which will function well for shorter distances).
On this point, does anyone know of any cities that have a system like this in place? A rail system where the trains travel on the streets as streetcars part of the time but on dedicated tracks between platformed stations as light rail the rest of the time? Does anything like this even exist? Is it even possible?

Buffalo's light rail will be functioning this way shortly. Right now the above ground portion of their system runs in a transit mall downtown, but I believe I read somewhere that they have decided to reopen the street to traffic so light rail vehicles will be sharing the road with cars and trucks.
Austin, TX's light rail line will/would be sharing about half of it's route on city streets with traffic if I am not mistaken as well.
Finally I believe the Hiawatha Line in Minneapolis shares at least some of it's route downtown with traffic.
This is just the current state of light rail sharing roads with cars, but if you look at Milwaukee transit history the interurban cars of the TMER&L shared city streets with automobile traffic. These old interurban cars were essentially light rail vehicles, so there is a historical precident for sharing of the roads.

I don't want this to be a "metro rail or bust" argument-- I'm not sure how this turned into an argument to begin with, actually-- but I agree with you that LRT is almost as good as metro rail.. it's just a little slower and doesn't have the same capacity and therefore isn't quite as good for long distance trips as metro rail, but it's still really amazingly great as a mass transit option. let me go on record as saying that I LOVE LIGHT RAIL... make no mistake about that. Realistically, I want Milwaukee to have light rail more than anything else, but I think you'll find that while metro rail and light rail may be in the same category as one another, streetcars are quite in a different category than LRT or metro rail. I think that streetcars serve a definite purpose but cannot provide the same function that metro rail or light rail can provide. streetcars are much slower, must contend with traffic, street intersections and any other street activities and do not offer the permanent types of stations with platforms that light rail or metro rail offer. This is a big deal if you're talking about building a viable system with long distance extensions to the airport and to the suburbs. The streetcar isn't made for that purpose and, unless there is some sort of streetcar/light rail hybrid that we can implement, Milwaukee is going to need to build its own dedicated LRT system in the future in addition to the planned streetcar (which will function well for shorter distances).
On this point, does anyone know of any cities that have a system like this in place? A rail system where the trains travel on the streets as streetcars part of the time but on dedicated tracks between platformed stations as light rail the rest of the time? Does anything like this even exist? Is it even possible?

:)I will not argue but offer you this. If LRT is so important to you and Milwaukee in general. Find out if people will actually use LRT in Milwaukee and the area surrounding Milwaukee. Find out in the business community the viability of LRT. Propose a voter referendium and put it up for a vote and get the signatures needed to put it up to a vote. Even bite the so called bullett and call County executive and even the Gov and ask for his imput even if he opposes and ignors your replies. A multi model plan is what I generally favor instead of a single model idea. Put this importance that you feel to the test. You may have already done so I don't know. All I see is from this forum but at any rate if you have done all this and nothing is coming of your effort what is all of this saying to you? Good luck in your effort to inform me the ignorant from Oshkosh.:)

In response to MJinOshkosh, I think if building a light rail line is put to a vote in the Milwaukee area it is always going to lose. People in this area just simply prefer using their car to get around rather than using rail transit.
The simple fact of the matter is there is not bad enough traffic congestion around the Milwaukee Metro area to induce people to give up their cars and use mass transit. And I don't think this is just a Milwaukee issue. In the following paragraph I have included some other Midwestern cities that do have light rail, the number of people in the Metro areas, the size of the system, and the daily ridership.

Population of Metro Cleveland - 2,250,871 people
Cleveland Blue and Green Lines - 18 miles of track 12,400 Daily Ridership
Percentage of population that uses light rail on a daily basis .5%

Population of Metro St. Louis - 2,779,939 people
St. Louis Metrolink - 46 miles of track 61,573 Daily Ridership
Percentage of population that uses light rail on a daily basis 2%

Population of Metro Twin Cities - 3,269,814 people
Hiawatha Line (Minneapolis) - 12.3 miles of track 33,500 Daily Ridership
Percentage of population that uses light rail on a daily basis 1%

Population of Metro Pittsburgh - 2,365,285 people
Pittsburgh Light Rail - 25 miles of track 25,200 Daily Ridership
Percentage of population that uses light rail on a daily basis 1%

Population of Metro Milwaukee -1,555,908 people
Using the best possible percentage above to calculate the number of people who would ride light rail in Milwaukee 31,118 Daily Ridership

Remember that this is using the best possible percentage, if we use Cleveland’s ridership as a model then the numbers look like this 7,780 Daily Ridership

As you can see despite somewhat substantial systems in some of these areas the percentage of the population that uses rail is really quite low. Again I just don't know if traffic is bad enough in most Midwestern cities to make people use public transit more.

Again I just don't know if traffic is bad enough in most Midwestern cities to make people use public transit more.

Traffic congestion isn't the only thing that gets people to ride public transit. Traffic in Portland is roughly equivalent to Milwaukee and we have a huge variety of public transit options. I ride the MAX (light rail) because it's convenient, dependable, quick, green and quite frankly, fun. My girlfriend rides the bus because of the same reasons aside from the fun aspect. We own a car that stays parked until Sundays when we go grocery shopping. Traffic congestion has nothing to do with it.

Schlitz Park renovations to include brew house demo, new park space
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel

June 6, 2011 2:31 p.m.

I just returned from a press conference at Schlitz Park business park, where developer Gary Grunau provided details about his $30 million renovation plan.

One of the biggest changes includes tearing down the brew house, which has remained vacant even as most of the former Schlitz brewery buildings were converted into offices.

The brew house has major structural problems, said Grunau. He said he and his partners, the Sampson family, have spent around $4 million trying to put various uses in the building. You might recall it was proposed as the initial home of Harley-Davidson Inc.'s museum before escalating cost estimates led Harley to switch gears and build the museum in the Menomonee Valley.

While some buildings at Schlitz Park are designated as historic, the brew house doesn't have any such designation, Grunau said. As such, the city's historic preservation ordinance doesn't apply to the building.

The plan is to create a small park on the site of the brew house, one of two parks that are part of the renovation plan, Grunau said.

The building renovations, including new conference rooms, updated decor and environmentally sustainable features, will focus on the structures that have most of the vacant space at Schlitz Park, which has a 20% vacancy rate. Those buildings include the RiverCenter, Bottlehouse and Stockhouse.

The work will start in September, and should be completed by January 2013.

The improvements are aimed at both retaining Schlitz Park's current tenants, as well as attracting new businesses, including those now located in the suburbs, Grunau said. He said he's been talking with prospective tenants, which he declined to name.

Grunau also said he expects to have his private financing package committed within 30 days. He said lenders are willing to finance the improvements because Schlitz Park has a strong tenant line-up.

As for public financing, Grunau said he might seek city help to reopen Galena St., which is now closed off from Schlitz Park.

Mayor Tom Barrett, who attended the press conference, told me afterward that city officials have started preliminary talks with Grunau about city financing to reopen the street. There's been no discussion yet of a specific proposed amount, Barrett said. Any such spending plan would need Common Council approval.
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I don't know about you folks, but this is kind of repulsive to me.

@MJinOshkosh: if you think the "free market" and "supply and demand" created this auto-centric society we live in, you need to research your history. Try this for starters:

ehoVnykvMKY

Schlitz Park renovations to include brew house demo, new park space
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel

June 6, 2011 2:31 p.m.

I just returned from a press conference at Schlitz Park business park, where developer Gary Grunau provided details about his $30 million renovation plan.

One of the biggest changes includes tearing down the brew house, which has remained vacant even as most of the former Schlitz brewery buildings were converted into offices.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know about you folks, but this is kind of repulsive to me.

I'm good with it. Not every building can be saved or is even worth saving. You have to cut your losses. They lost $4 million on this one building. Even by today's standards, that's not chump change.

At least they will have a stockpile of nice bricks for other projects.

Traffic congestion isn't the only thing that gets people to ride public transit. Traffic in Portland is roughly equivalent to Milwaukee and we have a huge variety of public transit options. I ride the MAX (light rail) because it's convenient, dependable, quick, green and quite frankly, fun. My girlfriend rides the bus because of the same reasons aside from the fun aspect. We own a car that stays parked until Sundays when we go grocery shopping. Traffic congestion has nothing to do with it.

I am not trying to pick a fight with you over this, so please don't take it that way but just because you enjoy riding public transit doesn't mean that the vast majority of people do. Despite what it might sound like I actually really like rail transit as well, I lived in Chicago for almost two years without a car relying on the train and buses.
However the point here is that traffic and congestion in a large city like Chicago makes it beneficial to use transit and as a result a larger number of people do. I included the figures of the Midwestern cities above to try to show that unless you are an extremely large city people just do not use transit in large proportions. I know it is my opinion but I think this is because it is not inconvenient enough for them using their cars in order to prompt them to use a form of mass transit.
MilwaukeeMark, please be honest when you answer this. As much as you like transit or even I might, in a lot of Metro areas in this country it is faster and more convenient for people to use cars. This is the reason the once extensive mass transit systems in this country disappeared, not some conspiracy by the oil companies or auto makers. If a person can travel 20 miles in a car making only two stops in say 15-20 minutes why would they make the same trip using mass transit that makes 10 stops and takes 30 minutes.

There are a lot of people who don't have the convenience of being able to use a car:

maybe they don't have a car;
maybe they don't like to drive;
maybe there are two people in the household and they only want to have one car - so the second person takes public transit instead of spending an additional $300 per month or so on car expenses;
maybe the person is too old and isn't allowed to drive;
maybe the person is too young and can't drive;
maybe the person wants to relax and not have to deal with traffic;
maybe the person has some type of disability that prevents them from driving a car;
maybe the person wants to use a mode of travel that, when carrying numerous peopls, is less polluting than having each of them drive their own car;
maybe because it is cheaper to take transit - due to higher fuel prices and high prices to park when the person gets to their location.

Also --- it is a known fact that several of the large auto makers in the US bought out the privately run transit systems in many cities throughout the country - to basically force people to have no other option except to buy a car. Their advertising made it seem like it was the "American Way" for everyone to buy a car and drive everywhere in a car -- but in reality, it wasn't so much all about baseball, hotdogs, apple pie and chevrolet being All American --- they just wanted people to think that way so they would buy cars. At first it wasn't too bad -- but now -- look at what has happened because so much of our country has been designed around an auto-focused world. Sprawl, sprawl, sprawl -- and ugly gigantic parking lots everywhere.

In response to MJinOshkosh, I think if building a light rail line is put to a vote in the Milwaukee area it is always going to lose. People in this area just simply prefer using their car to get around rather than using rail transit.
The simple fact of the matter is there is not bad enough traffic congestion around the Milwaukee Metro area to induce people to give up their cars and use mass transit. And I don't think this is just a Milwaukee issue. In the following paragraph I have included some other Midwestern cities that do have light rail, the number of people in the Metro areas, the size of the system, and the daily ridership.

Population of Metro Cleveland - 2,250,871 people
Cleveland Blue and Green Lines - 18 miles of track 12,400 Daily Ridership
Percentage of population that uses light rail on a daily basis .5%

Population of Metro St. Louis - 2,779,939 people
St. Louis Metrolink - 46 miles of track 61,573 Daily Ridership
Percentage of population that uses light rail on a daily basis 2%

Population of Metro Twin Cities - 3,269,814 people
Hiawatha Line (Minneapolis) - 12.3 miles of track 33,500 Daily Ridership
Percentage of population that uses light rail on a daily basis 1%

Population of Metro Pittsburgh - 2,365,285 people
Pittsburgh Light Rail - 25 miles of track 25,200 Daily Ridership
Percentage of population that uses light rail on a daily basis 1%

Population of Metro Milwaukee -1,555,908 people
Using the best possible percentage above to calculate the number of people who would ride light rail in Milwaukee 31,118 Daily Ridership

Remember that this is using the best possible percentage, if we use Cleveland’s ridership as a model then the numbers look like this 7,780 Daily Ridership

As you can see despite somewhat substantial systems in some of these areas the percentage of the population that uses rail is really quite low. Again I just don't know if traffic is bad enough in most Midwestern cities to make people use public transit more.

Not to perpetuate this kind of bizzare and rediculous argument, but it should be pointed out that MCTS already has the same ridership as the St. Louis Metro, and isn't far behind the other cities, despite being smaller (especially considering MCTS only really serves Milwaukee County, which is under 1 mil.). There are large swaths of the inner city where 30-40% of adults don't have access to cars, and a ton of college students who don't have them either. There's also a lack of residental parking a lot of places since inner Milwaukee is much more densely built than newer cities. And all of this is despite the fact that bus service isn't that great most places. Light rail (unless you built it in some far flung suburb and ran it three times a day) would get used. Look at SEWRPC's Milwaukee County Transit Development Plan if you don't believe me...

Milwaukee County voters already approved a referendum for a new tax for transit a few years ago. State law just stands in the way of anything happening.

Also --- it is a known fact that several of the large auto makers in the US bought out the privately run transit systems in many cities throughout the country - to basically force people to have no other option except to buy a car. Their advertising made it seem like it was the "American Way" for everyone to buy a car and drive everywhere in a car -- but in reality, it wasn't so much all about baseball, hotdogs, apple pie and chevrolet being All American --- they just wanted people to think that way so they would buy cars. At first it wasn't too bad -- but now -- look at what has happened because so much of our country has been designed around an auto-focused world. Sprawl, sprawl, sprawl -- and ugly gigantic parking lots everywhere.

EXACTLY.
splat8, please view the video I posted above... and part two is available on youtube as well. It's a good primer as to what happened to rail mass transit in America and why. It's a HUGE FALLACY that people "chose" automobiles over mass transit. GM was convicted in a federal court in 1947 of colluding against streetcar companies by buying them up and systematically shutting them down and replacing them with motorized busses. Their intention was to make people drive by offering an inferior mass transit product in the bus lines over the streetcars. This was not chosen by the citizenry. It was imposed upon them by General Motors. GM should have been much more severely punished for this than they were-- indeed the decline of Detroit may be karma-- but the important thing is to fix what they screwed up 60 years ago and bring back high quality mass transit to American cities (and that will never equate to busses).

Traffic congestion isn't the only thing that gets people to ride public transit. Traffic in Portland is roughly equivalent to Milwaukee and we have a huge variety of public transit options. I ride the MAX (light rail) because it's convenient, dependable, quick, green and quite frankly, fun. My girlfriend rides the bus because of the same reasons aside from the fun aspect. We own a car that stays parked until Sundays when we go grocery shopping. Traffic congestion has nothing to do with it.

If you really only use your car once or twice a week, why not get rid of it and go with zipcar? Just a suggestion :)

Let me ask you both a question MilwaukeeMax and GarfieldPark, did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason that streetcar lines disappeared from the majority of American cities is because of lack of ridership and lack of profit.
Let's not forget that most if not all streetcar lines in America were owned by private companies, and the goal of private compnaies is to turn a profit.
Case in point is the book on the TMER&L which was cited for the Milwaukee subway on the last page or two. In the book it says that the interurban network as well as the city streetcar lines were already being cut back in the 20's and 30's due to low ridership. Gasoline rationing in World War 2 gave the system a reprive and helped at least some of it to last until the 50's, however this would make it appear to me that the public in the Milwaukee area had already decided they preferred the automobile to the train in the 20's and 30's well before automobile companies started wholesale eliminating rail lines.
I am sure if we were to research transit companies in other cities we would find the same story played out over and over again.
I know it always sounds like I am against rail transit completely and I really am not, however I do not believe that it was a giant conspiracy that eliminated rail transit, just a shift in consumer tastes like how people now use cell phones instead of pay phones.

Not to perpetuate this kind of bizzare and rediculous argument, but it should be pointed out that MCTS already has the same ridership as the St. Louis Metro, and isn't far behind the other cities, despite being smaller (especially considering MCTS only really serves Milwaukee County, which is under 1 mil.). There are large swaths of the inner city where 30-40% of adults don't have access to cars, and a ton of college students who don't have them either. There's also a lack of residental parking a lot of places since inner Milwaukee is much more densely built than newer cities. And all of this is despite the fact that bus service isn't that great most places. Light rail (unless you built it in some far flung suburb and ran it three times a day) would get used. Look at SEWRPC's Milwaukee County Transit Development Plan if you don't believe me...

Milwaukee County voters already approved a referendum for a new tax for transit a few years ago. State law just stands in the way of anything happening.

Why is this argument ridiculous and bizarre? Municipal governments use studies and formulas like this to calculate potential ridership.
My question to you is do Cleveland, St. Louis, and Pittsburgh not have large swaths of inner city where people do not have access to cars? Do they not have college kids attending local universities without vehicles? Are these cities not densely built as Milwaukee since they are the same age or older?
Despite these cities have the same factors that you say will make rail transit sucessful in Milwaukee the best they can muster is 2% ridership daily of the metro population.
Again my point is that perhaps the automobile culture is deeply rooted in the Midwest and traffic is such a non-factor that people just do not see the need to ride rail transit.

@MJinOshkosh: if you think the "free market" and "supply and demand" created this auto-centric society we live in, you need to research your history. Try this for starters:

[youtube]ehoVnykvMKY[youtube]

good docu. The entire hour-long one is on youtube as well. lol at the "roadbuilder's prayer."

Just found this pretty amusing....(part of the SEWRPC 2035 Transportation Plan, p.398)

"The transportation plan was based on a projected motor fuel cost of $2.30 per gallon in the year 2035 in 2005 constant dollars (higher than U.S. Department of Energy projections) which, assuming an annual rate of inflation (2.0 percent) typical of that over the last 10 years, would be approximately $4.20 per gallon in the year 2035."

Just really shows you that the region has minds that know we need more, and faster, transit options even without considering the more-than-likely astronomical gas prices that will come in the next 5-10 years.

Park East developer requests more time

The Business Journal - by Sean Ryan

Date: Tuesday, June 7, 2011, 2:13pm CDT

Rainier Properties II LLC requested a six-month extension on its option to buy a county-owned Park East parcel for a planned development that will include a Marcus Theatres Corp. movie theater.
The project is at the northwest corner of North Water and East Knapp streets in Milwaukee. The site includes a 0.37-acre, county-owned parcel and a parking lot on the east shore of the Milwaukee River. The company’s option to buy the county-owned parcel for $700,000 expires at the end of June, but the developer is asking county officials to extend the option until the end of the year.
“Clearly, we’re continuing to pursue a very high-quality, dense, mixed-use development on that site,” said Rainier managing member Bruce Westling.
The Milwaukee County Board’s Economic and Community Development Committee will consider the request on Monday.
Rainier is planning a landmark project that would be anchored by Marcus Theatres but would include other uses, such as offices or retail. The project is a finalist for the Harmony Initiative project; however, planners for the initiative are pursuing a different location at this time, according to a letter Westling wrote to the Milwaukee County Board.
The Harmony Initiative includes a new headquarters for the Milwaukee Ballet Company combined with a sports medical clinic and school. Froedtert & Medical College of Wisconsin and the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Peck School of the Arts are partners on the development.
Westling said Rainier’s project is not the frontrunner but is still under consideration as a viable option.
Dennis Buehler, executive director of the Milwaukee Ballet Company, said a committee is still reviewing potential sites for the Harmony Initiative, but they are not commenting on any specific locations. It could be months before they select a site, he said.

Hopefully this is not a bad sign for the chance of this project being built...

Why is this argument ridiculous and bizarre? Municipal governments use studies and formulas like this to calculate potential ridership.
My question to you is do Cleveland, St. Louis, and Pittsburgh not have large swaths of inner city where people do not have access to cars? Do they not have college kids attending local universities without vehicles? Are these cities not densely built as Milwaukee since they are the same age or older?
Despite these cities have the same factors that you say will make rail transit sucessful in Milwaukee the best they can muster is 2% ridership daily of the metro population.
Again my point is that perhaps the automobile culture is deeply rooted in the Midwest and traffic is such a non-factor that people just do not see the need to ride rail transit.

There are a ton of reasons why this is a rediculous argument:

-2% of 2 million people is a lot for ONE rail line. Everyone in Milwaukee doesn't drive on the same freeway, or ride the same bus. Why would they ride the same rail line?

-You just assume all rail lines are equal. If you built a line down 76th St, it would get pretty lousy ridership, but if you built it down Wisconsin Ave, it would get high ridership. You don't compare where the lines in those cities go. Cleveland and Pittsburgh each built their lines over half a century ago when both cities were very different. St. Louis and Minneapolis built theirs recently, and both have high ridership. 33,500 riders a day is a decent number for a light rail line. It's more than your average bus line could handle efficiently. The highest ridership MCTS line is the 30, and it only gets about 16,000 riders a day and still gets overcrowded.

-Cleveland, St. Louis, and Pittsburgh are all hemorraging population. Milwaukee is at worst keeping even and at best growing slightly. Milwaukee is more core-centric than St. Louis, Cleveland, and Minneapolis (not sure about Pittsburgh), which makes it easier to serve with transit service. The cores of St. Louis and Cleveland are basically decimated. Milwaukee's core is more mixed- the south side, east side, and parts of the north side are growing. The main areas of the core of Pittsburgh which are actually vital are served by the busway not rail.

-Milwaukee's population density is higher than all of those cities, despite the fact that the city of Milwaukee covers more area, and includes more suburban style, and undeveloped areas than those cities. Look at St. Louis, eg: it only covers 66 sq mi, and was built out before the 50s, yet has a population density of 5158. Milwaukee covers 96.9 sq mi, and isn't built out yet but has a population density of 6296. Milwaukee's densest census tract has over 29,000 ppl/sq mi, which is highest in the Midwest outside of Chicago. More people living closer together means less room for automobiles, which means higher transit ridership.

-All cities have transit dependent populations, but whether or not they actually use transit depends on the service available. All of those cities, with the possible exception of Pittsburgh, are very spread out but only have decent transit service in their cores. Minneapolis, and St. Louis' rail lines help to counteract that by serving job concentrations in the suburbs (Bloomington and Clayton). It's pretty rediculous to expect a single rail line per city to fix 50 years of job sprawl, but it can make a difference.

-Milwaukee has a higher number of college students per capita than all of those cities except St. Louis, and Milwaukee's students are concentrated along one major transit corridor. Milwaukee has a few major transit corridors which manage to get high ridership despite the bus taking far longer than driving. There are plenty of people in the city who would gladly ride transit if it could get them to work in a reasonable amount of time. Light rail, or streetcar, BRT, or whatever, could accomplish this if designed properly.

When planners do studies to determine the viability of something, they take a ton of different things into account. That's why the Milwaukee County Transit Development Plan, eg, is over 300 pages long. Milwaukee is no more like Cleveland or St. Louis in terms of transit service and ridership than it's like Portland or Baltimore. It doesn't always make sense to compare them, and drawing some sort of conclusion out of a false comparison just reinforces whatever you wanted to believe to begin with.

If you really only use your car once or twice a week, why not get rid of it and go with zipcar? Just a suggestion :)

A fantastic suggestion at that! Ironically enough, we park in a zipcar lot. :) Our car is paid off and we pay minimal insurance rates along with a small parking lot fee so it's really not all that much of a price difference. It's nice to have the convenience of driving whenever, if needed, as well. I may have exaggerated slightly as we do use the car other times than just Sunday. Tomorrow, for instance, we're driving to Mt. Hood for a hike.

I am not trying to pick a fight with you over this, so please don't take it that way but just because you enjoy riding public transit doesn't mean that the vast majority of people do. Despite what it might sound like I actually really like rail transit as well, I lived in Chicago for almost two years without a car relying on the train and buses.
However the point here is that traffic and congestion in a large city like Chicago makes it beneficial to use transit and as a result a larger number of people do. I included the figures of the Midwestern cities above to try to show that unless you are an extremely large city people just do not use transit in large proportions. I know it is my opinion but I think this is because it is not inconvenient enough for them using their cars in order to prompt them to use a form of mass transit.
MilwaukeeMark, please be honest when you answer this. As much as you like transit or even I might, in a lot of Metro areas in this country it is faster and more convenient for people to use cars. This is the reason the once extensive mass transit systems in this country disappeared, not some conspiracy by the oil companies or auto makers. If a person can travel 20 miles in a car making only two stops in say 15-20 minutes why would they make the same trip using mass transit that makes 10 stops and takes 30 minutes.

It's a healthy debate, not an argument - let alone a fight! No offense taken but thanks for the niceties. :)

Apparently it's a mindset issue. I don't ride mass transit because it is faster and I'm a bit confused as to why rail proponents would even argue that - especially in a city like Milwaukee. As for me, I simply adjust my schedule to accommodate the public transit schedule.

The same points can be made about food or clothes or whatever you want, really. I choose to buy my produce at the co-op instead of the supermarket. I do "Meatless Mondays" because it's good for the planet, etc..

Kohls talks about moving, some one suggest downtown, and now we are talking subways in Milwaukee, 40 story towers, and learning how GM destroyed America by wiping out its streetcar competition. I thought businesses were supposed to detroy their competition, isn't that kind of the whole idea.

JS had a piece today mentioning the falls putting together a tif district to build out the office park where Kohls was proposed. While Kohls was not mentioned as being the driver, I think its safe to say that kohls at least is some part of the discussion. I still think Kohls wants to stay in the falls and is playing the falls for a good deal, but its only my speculation. What i want to know is why is there no mention of kohls expanding its current site. When looked at from the air, the site is huge, and an ocean of asphault. There is no reason not to think the most economical way for kohls to expand would be to add buildings in the parking lots and build parking garages. The falls could easily put in a tif and clear the red tape to sweeten the deal. To the northwest of the current site is what looks like some empty land that could accomodate future expansions. Again, the falls could clear the red tape for kohls to make sure all this is locked in before kohls signs the deal. Northwestern Mutual in Franklin would be a comparable development.

Grand Avenue lands two arts tenants

The Business Journal - by Stacy Vogel Davis

Date: Tuesday, June 7, 2011, 2:16pm CDT


The Shops of Grand Avenue has reached deals with two arts groups planning to set up shop in the Plankinton Building as it focuses on arts and entrepreneurial groups on the east side of the mall.
Art Milwaukee, an arts advocacy and marketing organization, and Milwaukee Public Theatre have both signed leases for space in the first floor of the Plankinton Building, said Tracy Korpela, marketing and specialty leasing manager. Art Milwaukee, which holds monthly Art Jamborees around the community, will lease 4,300 square feet for one year. Milwaukee Public Theatre will lease most of the 31,000 square feet of the former Linens ’n Things space through September for its “Make-a-Parade” workshop series. The program offers free workshops for youth groups and families to build floats, costumes and puppets to use in parades around the city. The workshops will be held in the mall’s atrium, Korpela said.
The new tenants continue a recent trend of focusing on nonretail uses for the Plankinton Building, which has few shops besides T.J. Maxx. The mall came under new ownership in fall, and the owners are expected to announce a comprehensive plan by the end of the year.
The mall is holding an open house at 5:30 p.m. Wednesday in conjunction with Kahler Slater Inc., a Milwaukee architecture and design .

The tale of states:

Executives surveyed by Wisconsin's largest business lobbying group overwhelmingly say the state is "going in the right direction," a near-complete reversal of sentiment from a year ago that comes against a backdrop of exceptional political animosity.

The 2011 Economic Outlook Survey from Wisconsin Manufacturers & Commerce shows that business leaders have shifted their views sharply in the aftermath of last year's change of political control in Madison from Democrats to Republicans

http://www.jsonline.com/business/123511849.html

CME Group eyes Illinois exit; Emanuel confident it will stay

The company that owns Chicago's two leading futures exchanges is weighing whether to move some operations from Illinois, citing the state's corporate tax rate increase.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/breaking/chi-cme-group-threatens-to-leave-illinois-over-taxes-20110608,0,4140752.story

The tale of states:

Executives surveyed by Wisconsin's largest business lobbying group overwhelmingly say the state is "going in the right direction," a near-complete reversal of sentiment from a year ago that comes against a backdrop of exceptional political animosity.

The 2011 Economic Outlook Survey from Wisconsin Manufacturers & Commerce shows that business leaders have shifted their views sharply in the aftermath of last year's change of political control in Madison from Democrats to Republicans

http://www.jsonline.com/business/123511849.html

Wow, our state's elites are happy. Now once things improve fore the rest of us, maybe this will be news. Oh wait - they matter, not us. Nevermind.

Everybody matters and since it is the business owners who employ the residents of wisconsin I would say this is very good news. As for "us", I would also agree that things are looking up.

Wow, our state's elites are happy. Now once things improve fore the rest of us, maybe this will be news. Oh wait - they matter, not us. Nevermind.

C'mon, really? You can't seriously be looking to get divisive over this report, can you? Good economic news -- actual and potential -- is good news for Wisconsin. Period. Jobs are jobs wherever they come from, and whomever is responsible for them. Elections have consequences, and it just so happens that Republicans see the correlation between taxes and business development differently than Democrats. Walker is doing exactly what he said he's do when he ran for governor, and that included doing what it takes to get businesses and jobs here. Without mentioning names, the previous governor did whatever he could to lose businesses and jobs in this state. And, without business and jobs, we have fewer people and less taxes and less of a state. As we know, you can only keep raising taxes on people to a point where they leave along with the jobs that leave the state. Only a healthy marketplace will generate growth -- not government. Illinois is finding this out every day.

Never mind.

Wow, our state's elites are happy. Now once things improve fore the rest of us, maybe this will be news. Oh wait - they matter, not us. Nevermind.

Somebody's jealous

More food for thought:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304259304576375480710070472.html

But I suppose we would rather talk about how not to achieve economic development than how to achieve it.

@ usbmfa

Read your article. What exactly does what texas is doing have do to with Wisconsin?
Yeah, Texas added a bunch of jobs, but how many of them are really well paying jobs? Policies that Texas has enacted has beneifted them in some ways, but they also have a budget deficit due to those policies.

I bet you are a smart guy, do you really expect the Wall Street journal to be pro taxes? Of course not, wall street hates taxes but loves goverment bailouts. The WMC actively gave money to republican candidates, of course they are happy with the direction their candidates are taking Wisconsin. And for all that talk about how they love the turn around under the Republican regime, I have to ask, if the business enviroment is so much better, shouldn't we be ssing more hiring and jobs from the business community? Shouldn't small business loans be flowing? Alas, none of this is happening, and the jobs that are being produced are mostly in retail.

Both parties are full of it. Republicans game into power in Wisconsin and the nation promising to focus on job creation. Yet here they are tackling everything but that. Old adage holds true "The more things change, the more they stay the same".

Texas has been stealing companies and jobs from WI and other states for many years now, yet many people choose to remain blind as to why that is. If we want to spur development we need to spur business. To do that, we have to do what works and look at places where things are successful. Thus, lets look at what Texas, South Dakota, and a few other places are doing. It's not rocket science... but some people refuse to believe what's right in front of them.

Texas has been stealing companies and jobs from WI and other states for many years now, yet many people choose to remain blind as to why that is. If we want to spur development we need to spur business. To do that, we have to do what works and look at places where things are successful. Thus, lets look at what Texas, South Dakota, and a few other places are doing. It's not rocket science... but some people refuse to believe what's right in front of them.

Texas also doesn't have the the major expense of snow clean-up, (well this past winter excepted), and the corresponding road repairs. And, Texas is still in a major mess budget-wise. Personally, I like Texas, even lived in San Antonio for a while, but it has it's own problems, and is certainly not perfect. It has been very good at luring corporate HQs, which might have as much to do with the weather climate as the tax climate.

If tax policy is the only thing that matters, another place I lived for years, Wyoming, should be bursting at the seams. (It's not.) I think quality of life counts for a lot when it comes to location decisions for corporations. Wyoming's neighbor Colorado does a lot better on the job and corporate headquarters scorecard, as well as population, and has much higher taxes. I think the reason is the Front Range has a lot more to offer than Casper, and CEOs who care about attracting good employees weigh that heavily.

Thus, lets look at what Texas, South Dakota, and a few other places are doing. It's not rocket science... but some people refuse to believe what's right in front of them.

I think you mean NORTH Dakota, and it has a lot to do with the presence of oil, in Texas as well.
Perhaps read carefully through the Comments section of the WSJ article to get a more nuanced picture, including costs as well as benefits.

It's not rocket science indeed; Rocket science has a lot fewer variables (like investment fads, climate preferences, ease of corruption, social and status fears, boredom, etc. &c.)

Texas has been stealing companies and jobs from WI and other states for many years now, yet many people choose to remain blind as to why that is. If we want to spur development we need to spur business. To do that, we have to do what works and look at places where things are successful. Thus, lets look at what Texas, South Dakota, and a few other places are doing. It's not rocket science... but some people refuse to believe what's right in front of them.

What about places like Washington DC, Portland OR, and the Silicon Valley? Growth does not happen purely based on political leaning. There are so many other factors that affect growth. Right here in Wisconsin the fastest growing area (both by business and population) is the Madison area. (Which upsets me given that I grew up in Milwaukee.)

Also Texas and South Dakota are heavily reliant on the oil industry, which artificially adds success to the regions they reside in.

...lets look at what Texas, South Dakota, and a few other places are doing. It's not rocket science... but some people refuse to believe what's right in front of them.

Look here, eg, http://www.dallasnews.com/news/nation-world/nation/20100916-Texas-seeks-answers-to-rising-poverty-4755.ece (http://www.dallasnews.com/news/nation-world/nation/20100916-Texas-seeks-answers-to-rising-poverty-4755.ece). Sure there are tons and tons of rich folks there, but 26.1% of Texans don't have health insurance, 25.6% of children live in poverty, and if it was its own country, it'd have the highest percentage of people behind bars in the world. Plus, they're destroying the environment in the name of subdivisions and oil as fast as anyplace on Earth. Not exactly the sort of society I'd define as successful.

I think you need to consider what the point of economic development is. Economic development for economic development's sake just gets a small percentage of people richer, while the rest of us get even more stuck in $7/hour jobs with worsening conditions.

Developer hopes to begin downtown Hilton project by September
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel

A Chicago-area developer hopes to begin work by August or September on an $18 million conversion of the historic Loyalty Building into a downtown hotel...

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/123775614.html

Park East development plan gets more time from County Board panel
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel

A plan by developers Gary Grunau and Bruce Westling to create a mixed-use development featuring a cinema complex in downtown's Park East area is again getting more time...

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/123754584.html




Good news for both, I would reallllly like to see the Marcus complex go forward. Ideal location for a mid-high rise and I really like the design of the building. If this could be developed, along with the re-development of the Marcus Center's parking structure in the next 5-7 years, the N. Water St. corridor could become a really cool area...a lot more than just a nightlife strip.

I'd much rather Marcus refurbish the Grand, and use the empty lots behind it to build the downtown multiplex they want. While I want the Park East developed like anyone else, I think the off-Wisconsin Ave site is a superior site (could also help revitalize the ailing Grand Avenue) and I don't see how a large windowless complex on the river would benifit either the theatre, nor the river itself. Put something on it that will interact with the river instead of standing in opposition to it.

Just my two cents.

Cool about the Loyalty Building and the Mackie building, two of the most gorgeous buildings downtown. Bringing some night life to that area would be most welcome.

Thanks for the great comments guys. I whole heartedly agree that every place has it's challenges. Texas is no exception to that. But when it comes to helping improve peoples ability to live a life that's not in poverty then you need to have jobs for them and that is what Texas does well.

Milwaukee, WY - I agree, some of their draw is climate or other factors... but like you said, you need more then that to draw people. Fiscal policy is one tool a state can use to draw people, companies, and jobs. By itself though, it can't work miracles. Luckily we have a lot of great things going for our state that could help us there.

Looksee - Yes, I meant North Dakota. Also, saying the growth in Texas is because of oil is pretty crazy... I could probably list half a dozen or more companies they've stolen from WI in the last couple years alone without doing any research... none of those were oil companies. Plus we've seen little growth from other oil states like Louisianna that has a large part of their economy based on the oil industry. Finally, with how miniscule oil has become in the larger economy of texas, the small increases they've seen has had little total impact when you look at the numbers.

Araman - Another great point, as stated above, every city and state has it's own advantages and disadvantages that can help it or hurt it in attracting businesses. I rank portland as one of the best cities I've never visited. :) They have a great geographical region for transportation, logistics, climate, etc. Not to mention, they have low city costs because lets face it... they have a very homogeonous population that is full of educated, low crime, wealthy(as a whole) individuals. They don't have to deal with a lot of problems that other areas are, and it shows! As far as DC... well, thank the government expansion for that growth. It's easy to manufacture jobs whenever the gov decides to add a few heads to the beaurocracy. I'd place Madison in more the situation with Portland.

MK - It's interesting that you point out poverty in Texas. What that newpaper article glosses over is that they have the largest population of illegals in the country. over 95% of which are below the poverty line. almost 6% of the states population are illegal immigrants, even more are legal non-citizens then that though... but I don't want to count those b/c they have much lower poverty rates. Even if you take just the 6% that'd make their poverty significantly lower%... not bad when compared to the rest of the country... it's lower in fact then the average state, lower then WI if you don't include them. 26ish% of children below poverty line, but over 15% of children in their schools are children of illegals. See the pattern? Plus, that 11% poverty growth was right in line with the rest of the nation as well since the recession started in 2007.

So basically what I'm saying is... yes, they have their own challenges... but the biggest challenges we face in this country have to do with the economy and that is one area that they can truely be an example for the rest of the states because they are so successful. You can't discount that just because you don't like that it's a conservative state.


http://www.usccb.org/cchd/povertyusa/povfacts.shtml

Is anyone else having a hard time picturing the loyalty building fitting a 128 room hotel? It has potential to be pretty nice though... or go horribly wrong. Lets cross our fingers.

On a different subject, themilwaukeestreetcar.com has been updated with a new flyer of sorts touting the economic development capabilities of the Streetcar. A few other updates to the site have occured, most importantly with a new timeline that implies that the project will be put up for Common Council approval this summer. Unsurprisingly (given that we've heard little about the project lately), start of revenue operation has been delayed a year from the original plan, back to 2014.

Also, just heard from a friend who works in the Milwaukee dance community that the Marcus Parking Garage is currently the first choice for the location of the Harmony Initiative. I guess we'll have to see if they can put together a financing plan and work out the details with all the stakeholders. I think I recall an executive at Von Reisen & Roper mentioning their desire to be a part of the complex that the initiative chooses. The Marcus Center apparently is hoping to have their parking garage gone within the next two years, so that they don't have to invest more money keeping it structurally sound.

Thanks for the great comments guys. I whole heartedly agree that every place has it's challenges. Texas is no exception to that. But when it comes to helping improve peoples ability to live a life that's not in poverty then you need to have jobs for them and that is what Texas does well.

The point is that you need jobs that actually lift people out of poverty. There are tons of economically successful people and companies in Texas, no doubt. But there are also a ton of people who still work a lot and are at or below the poverty line. Encouraging that kind of growth is both poor public policy (it means people still need benefits like food stamps even though they're stuck at Walmart 10 hours a day, and that they can't consume which benefits the economy). It also shows a fundamental disrespect for the lives of those people who are stuck at the bottom, and their children, etc., by basically telling them that's what they're worth.

We can cut taxes, enact a bunch of anti-union legislation, and get thousands of $7/hour jobs in WI. But, they won't be stable, poverty and crime issues will likely stay the same, and we won't be able to afford the things which give us a decent quality of life, like transit, parks, museums, schools, food stamps, etc. It's not really a very sustainable solution.

RE the Marcus Theater I think the Grand would be a way better location, too. Something needs to be done with that place. The vacant lots are an eyesore, and it has to affect the attractiveness of the stuff surrounding it. Doesn't Marcus still own it anyway?

All this talk about how states like Texas are doing it right is a bit hard to take, in light of the fact that southern states in general are the recipients of significant redistribution of wealth from the north. See http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html - it's pretty illustrative. Receiving 1.5-2x your federal tax contribution back in the form of federal spending is a pretty easy way to eliminate state taxes, as we all know southern states are wont to do. The north basically subsidizes the theft of our own jobs by "low tax" southern states. Thank goodness their populations are so uneducated that they can't support the southward migration of white collar jobs.

Also, just heard from a friend who works in the Milwaukee dance community that the Marcus Parking Garage is currently the first choice for the location of the Harmony Initiative. I guess we'll have to see if they can put together a financing plan and work out the details with all the stakeholders. I think I recall an executive at Von Reisen & Roper mentioning their desire to be a part of the complex that the initiative chooses. The Marcus Center apparently is hoping to have their parking garage gone within the next two years, so that they don't have to invest more money keeping it structurally sound.

Thanks for that update! I'm wondering, besides the conceptual models that the MSOE students did last year, have there even been any plans/drawings by a real firm for the parking garage location. I think it would be a great development, but wondering how long it would take to get it put together.

Looksee - ...Also, saying the growth in Texas is because of oil is pretty crazy... ... Finally, with how miniscule oil has become in the larger economy of texas, the small increases they've seen has had little total impact when you look at the numbers.

At the risk of reviving a dead horse (sorry), several reliable sources disagree with you: (and I suggest reading the full articles)

The Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas:http://dallasfed.org/research/swe/2011/swe1101g.cfm (http://dallasfed.org/research/swe/2011/swe1101g.cfm)

The oil and gas industry has been a driver of the Texas economy for the past 40 years.... affirming the industry’s long-held prominence in the state

http://dallasfed.org/research/swe/2011/images/1101g1a.gif

Also the Foundation for Energy Education, "the voice of the oil and gas industry":http://www.foundationforenergyeducation.org/oil_and_gas_by_the_numbersjobs_taxes_and_royalties.php (http://www.foundationforenergyeducation.org/oil_and_gas_by_the_numbersjobs_taxes_and_royalties.php)

During Fiscal Year 2009, the oil and gas industry paid more than $8.5 billion in Texas state and local taxes, and royalties. The taxes paid go toward funding Texas schools, textbooks, Medicaid, children’s health insurance programs, children's protective services, roads, and police and fire departments. ...On a per-employee basis, oil and gas companies pay much more in state and local taxes and royalties than do most other private sector firms. In FY 2009, oil and gas companies paid, on average, roughly $24,000 per job in state and local taxes, and approx. $2,600 per job in royalties. By comparison, other private sector firms paid, on average, only about $4,800 per worker. ...each oil and gas job can lead to the creation of many other jobs in Texas. According to some industry estimates, this multiplier effect can be as high as 14 to 17 additional jobs created for each oil and gas job, in certain categories. Overall, at a minimum, every oil and gas job creates three more additional jobs. Helping to create this multiplier effect are oil and gas company purchases for everything from equipment to land, pipe, materials (including steel and concrete), fuel, construction, well services and maintenance, and engineering, legal and accounting services..

The incredible wealth the oil and natural gas industries generate has very much to do with the tax and other incentives (including huge pools of private money available to finance "deals") businesses find attractive.

East side groups propose upgrades to Juneau Park, Cathedral Square

Neighborhood district would pursue $3.5 million in upgrades

By Steve Schultze of the Journal Sentinel
June 13, 2011

A new Neighborhood Improvement District would do a $3.5 million upgrade of Cathedral Square and Juneau parks on the city's east side, with businesses and large apartment building owners in the area financing the project, under a plan to be presented to county officials Tuesday.
The plan was developed by the East Town Association, a local business group, and Juneau Park Friends. The groups are jointly seeking city approval for creation of the neighborhood district and separately asking for county approval for long-term leases of both parks.
The groups also would take over all regular maintenance of the parks from the county, likely a key selling point given the county's strapped budget and large backlog of park maintenance.
The neighborhood operation of the parks would be a first for Milwaukee County, but not uncommon in other parts of the country, county Parks Director Sue Black said. She's not endorsing the concept at this point but bringing it to the County Board's parks committee for the idea's first public airing Tuesday.
A memo by Black to the county parks committee, however, describes the plan for Cathedral Square and Juneau Park as "the optimal solution to revitalize and enhance those neighborhoods." Earlier ideas to improve the parks failed because of lack of a funding source, Black's memo says.
The East Town group hosts Cathedral Square's biggest events, Bastille Days and Jazz in the Park. The new district would upgrade the entire Cathedral Square with new sidewalks and landscaping and build a "subdued" structure that would include a stage and restrooms. The design is still in the discussion phase, said Kate Borders, executive director of the East Town Association. Cathedral Square is 2.3 acres between Kilbourn Ave. and Wells, Jackson and Jefferson streets.
Lake Michigan bluff stabilization work would be done on Juneau Park, as well as construction of stairs and ramps to the lakefront and beautification of the rest of the upper portion of the park, Borders said. Juneau Park comprises 14 acres along the Lake Michigan bluff between Juneau Ave. and Mason St.
Details of both projects as well as lease terms would be worked out in conjunction with local officials, she said.
Money for the work would come from assessments on commercial property, as well as apartments with more than eight units, under the association's preliminary plan. The Neighborhood Improvement District would extend from Clybourn Ave. on the south and Ogden Ave. on the north, to Broadway on the west and Lake Michigan on the east.
East Town Association is suggesting that assessments would come to about $50 to $90 a year for property valued at $200,000.
The association estimates that the total annual assessment for the district would be about $500,000. More precise figures would be developed as the plan is refined based on public scrutiny, Borders said.
The proposed neighborhood district would borrow the money for the two park projects and use the property assessments to pay it back.
"This is the kind of creative thinking that's happening across the country, so local neighborhoods can be assured their dollars are put directly to use" on local parks, she said.
Parks Committee Chairman Gerry Broderick said the neighborhood district idea was intriguing but needed more analysis.
"The rough concept sounds like a great deal," Broderick said. But he said he would oppose "ceding any parkland to private control." He said ultimate control of the parks would have to remain with the county.
"There are a lot of questions that have to be answered here," Broderick said, adding: "It's resources we sorely need."
Borders said the group was open to working out details of the plan with the county, which would have representation on a Neighborhood Improvement District Board that would oversee the parks.
East Town Association has set three public informational meetings on the project: 10 a.m. to noon June 28 at the Miller Room at O'Donnell Park; 5 to 6 p.m. June 29 at 788 N. Jefferson St; and 1 to 5 p.m. July 6 at 770 N. Jefferson St.
The association hopes to get county tentative approval for the concept by July and plans to seek city approval for creation of the district starting in August.
Work on the parks would begin next year, under that tentative time frame.

I think this is a great idea and hopefully more neighborhood parks in the Milwaukee area will follow suit. Not only will it save the county money, I think the parks will also be better taken care of. When people are putting their time, money, and effort into something they tend to make sure it stays in good shape.

It also shows a fundamental disrespect for the lives of those people who are stuck at the bottom, and their children, etc., by basically telling them that's what they're worth.
That is probably the finest example of socialist thinking I have ever read. I believe people determine their own worth.

East side groups propose upgrades to Juneau Park, Cathedral Square

Neighborhood district would pursue $3.5 million in upgrades

By Steve Schultze of the Journal Sentinel
June 13, 2011

A new Neighborhood Improvement District would do a $3.5 million upgrade of Cathedral Square and Juneau parks on the city's east side, with businesses and large apartment building owners in the area financing the project, under a plan to be presented to county officials Tuesday.
The plan was developed by the East Town Association, a local business group, and Juneau Park Friends. The groups are jointly seeking city approval for creation of the neighborhood district and separately asking for county approval for long-term leases of both parks.
The groups also would take over all regular maintenance of the parks from the county, likely a key selling point given the county's strapped budget and large backlog of park maintenance.
The neighborhood operation of the parks would be a first for Milwaukee County, but not uncommon in other parts of the country, county Parks Director Sue Black said. She's not endorsing the concept at this point but bringing it to the County Board's parks committee for the idea's first public airing Tuesday.
A memo by Black to the county parks committee, however, describes the plan for Cathedral Square and Juneau Park as "the optimal solution to revitalize and enhance those neighborhoods." Earlier ideas to improve the parks failed because of lack of a funding source, Black's memo says.
The East Town group hosts Cathedral Square's biggest events, Bastille Days and Jazz in the Park. The new district would upgrade the entire Cathedral Square with new sidewalks and landscaping and build a "subdued" structure that would include a stage and restrooms. The design is still in the discussion phase, said Kate Borders, executive director of the East Town Association. Cathedral Square is 2.3 acres between Kilbourn Ave. and Wells, Jackson and Jefferson streets.
Lake Michigan bluff stabilization work would be done on Juneau Park, as well as construction of stairs and ramps to the lakefront and beautification of the rest of the upper portion of the park, Borders said. Juneau Park comprises 14 acres along the Lake Michigan bluff between Juneau Ave. and Mason St.
Details of both projects as well as lease terms would be worked out in conjunction with local officials, she said.
Money for the work would come from assessments on commercial property, as well as apartments with more than eight units, under the association's preliminary plan. The Neighborhood Improvement District would extend from Clybourn Ave. on the south and Ogden Ave. on the north, to Broadway on the west and Lake Michigan on the east.
East Town Association is suggesting that assessments would come to about $50 to $90 a year for property valued at $200,000.
The association estimates that the total annual assessment for the district would be about $500,000. More precise figures would be developed as the plan is refined based on public scrutiny, Borders said.
The proposed neighborhood district would borrow the money for the two park projects and use the property assessments to pay it back.
"This is the kind of creative thinking that's happening across the country, so local neighborhoods can be assured their dollars are put directly to use" on local parks, she said.
Parks Committee Chairman Gerry Broderick said the neighborhood district idea was intriguing but needed more analysis.
"The rough concept sounds like a great deal," Broderick said. But he said he would oppose "ceding any parkland to private control." He said ultimate control of the parks would have to remain with the county.
"There are a lot of questions that have to be answered here," Broderick said, adding: "It's resources we sorely need."
Borders said the group was open to working out details of the plan with the county, which would have representation on a Neighborhood Improvement District Board that would oversee the parks.
East Town Association has set three public informational meetings on the project: 10 a.m. to noon June 28 at the Miller Room at O'Donnell Park; 5 to 6 p.m. June 29 at 788 N. Jefferson St; and 1 to 5 p.m. July 6 at 770 N. Jefferson St.
The association hopes to get county tentative approval for the concept by July and plans to seek city approval for creation of the district starting in August.
Work on the parks would begin next year, under that tentative time frame.

I think this is a great idea and hopefully more neighborhood parks in the Milwaukee area will follow suit. Not only will it save the county money, I think the parks will also be better taken care of. When people are putting their time, money, and effort into something they tend to make sure it stays in good shape.

I'll be so happy when the hill areas of Juneau Park aren't just a thicket of trees and overgrown bushes unnavigable by humans. A prominent park like Juneau should be landscaped beautifully and look attractive from Lincoln Mem Drive... not overrun and uncared for.

That is probably the finest example of socialist thinking I have ever read. I believe people determine their own worth.

Seriously?

My life is what I have made of it, for better or worse. I don't know anyone any different.

I'm thrilled to hear that Cathedral Square and Juneau Park are eyed for makeovers. I've long said that in a city that has a wealth of parks, we lack dignified city parks... that is, parks that are well-shaped, well-maintained, distinctively urban, and active year-round. Red Arrow pointed toward a possible answer, having a the ice rink enliven it during the winter. Unfortunately, it loses steam when it transforms into hardscape in the summer. I attribute much of that to the park design.

Cathedral Square has the opportunity to become Milwaukee's true living room. It needs to be clearly defined by four edges --- in its current state, it simply bleeds to the North. Use Bryant Park in NYC as precedent to consider. Couple new uses with a significant streetcar stop and we could have a real winner --- something akin to Portland's downtown transit hub/square.

I'm thrilled to hear that Cathedral Square and Juneau Park are eyed for makeovers. I've long said that in a city that has a wealth of parks, we lack dignified city parks... that is, parks that are well-shaped, well-maintained, distinctively urban, and active year-round. Red Arrow pointed toward a possible answer, having a the ice rink enliven it during the winter. Unfortunately, it loses steam when it transforms into hardscape in the summer. I attribute much of that to the park design.

Cathedral Square has the opportunity to become Milwaukee's true living room. It needs to be clearly defined by four edges --- in its current state, it simply bleeds to the North. Use Bryant Park in NYC as precedent to consider. Couple new uses with a significant streetcar stop and we could have a real winner --- something akin to Portland's downtown transit hub/square.

Lake Park was designed by Frederick Law Olmsted... pretty much the first land scape architect... I could only imagine how amazing Lake Park would be if they stuck to his original plan and maintained it throughout the years... stupid shortcut taking county... I'd love to see the original blueprints for Lake Park and some early pics of it.

My life is what I have made of it, for better or worse. I don't know anyone any different.
You must not know anyone at all. Not your parents; Not your teachers; Not your friends or acquaintances; Not your road builders or street cleaners or sanitation workers; Not your police or fire fighters or insurance brokers or house builders or building inspectors or building code authors or lawyers (including business and title attorneys) or bankers (and we've had a taste of what can go wrong when they believe the rest of society doesn't matter) or everyone else, including prior generations of workers, both public and private who have enabled the overwhelming riches of our surroundings and allowed you to partake of that bounty.

I'm sure your inborn gifts would let you lead the same life, for better or worse, at any other time or in any other place, like in Somalia, or during the Great Depression.

By nearly all measures Wisconsin enjoys a very high quality of life, and a great deal of that stems from a desire to both protect all of its residents from exploitation and abuse, and to extend opportunity for advancement and enrichment to all of its citizens.
Call that what you will: Socialism, Progressive-ism, The Wisconsin Idea.

It sure as hell isn't Me-ism.

Although socialism would be a blatant misnomer. Eriol, please read some Marx or enroll in an introductory sociology class before you throw words around you don't understand. Furthermore, as looksee pointed out, your actions are wholly and inescapably determined by your surroundings and your reactions to it. Some people get lucky, some people rightfully earn their place, and other's lives are tragic indeed. Not everyone will have opportunities that you or I will have, and likewise we'll never see opportunities like some.

East side groups propose upgrades to Juneau Park, Cathedral Square

Neighborhood district would pursue $3.5 million in upgrades


This is interesting news. I like the prospect of having paths or stairs to and from the lakefront. I always thought that hill was a bit shut off from the park below.


Also, any word on the apartment "high-rise" proposal for the old Eduardo's lot (i think) at Kilbourne & Van Buren?

@D-res I believe the Bookends apartments proposal is pretty much dead.

Lake Park was designed by Frederick Law Olmsted... pretty much the first land scape architect... I could only imagine how amazing Lake Park would be if they stuck to his original plan and maintained it throughout the years... stupid shortcut taking county... I'd love to see the original blueprints for Lake Park and some early pics of it.

Agreed Miltown, Lake Park would be even better today had they stuck to Olmsted's vision. And just to be clear, the parks I'm referring to are our city center urban parks (Red Arrow, Cathedral Square, Pere Marquette, etc). They have to ability to take on a entirely different feel and contribute to both street and park life.

Great news about the streetcar moving along. I can't underscore how important this infrastructure will be for the city. Get out there and support it!

Drat! I did it again. When will I learn? It's like watching my hand move and I can't control it. Oh well.

Here is some new developments in good ol Milwaukee.

Milwaukee still pushing for streetcar line
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/123860974.html

This is awesome news to hear. I love that Milwaukee and Mayor Tom Barrett are trying their hardest to get this line going even though there is much opposition to it (mostly from talk radio and the western suburbs). If we can get this line up and started and have it connect both Marquette Campus and UWM campus areas it will be a guaranteed win for the city of Milwaukee! Hopefully Herb Kohl can get Obama to give him a parting gift of extra federal funds for this line (hopeful thinking):)

Some more good news

MSOE parking garage proposal needs work
http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2011/06/14/msoe-parking-garage-proposal-needs-work/

I for one am totally against any new parking garages anywhere in downtown Milwaukee. I drives me completely bonkers that so much of our downtown area is littered with ugly bland parking garages that sit empty for the majority of the day. Views from the river are ruined due to parking garages (chase parking garage and the other one across the river). There is simply too much parking available downtown. Milwaukee's mayor and county executive have to put their foot down and say enough. Stop catering to the people who live out in the suburbs!

With all that being said, I wouldn't be against this MSOE proposed parking garage if they do it correctly. How do they accomplish that? By making it a focal point for all the parking needs of the vicinity. Make it big enough where no more garages would need to be built for any other developments around the area. Make it look nice enough where you can't really tell that it is a parking garage. Have first floor retail and restaurant options. If that soccer field is going to be atop it, make it actually work and make it open to the public. Lastly, make it cheap enough where people will actually park there and be able to explore the area.

Lastly some very bad news :(

Abele said county officials are developing plans to turn vacant Park East Freeway corridor land into temporary parking lots.
http://urbanismnews.com/wi/milwaukee/abele-some-park-east-land-could-provide-temporary-parking

Damn it! The more things change, the more they stay the same :ohno:
Seriously, does anybody else not see how backwards this is? I'd rather leave the lots empty than put up more surface parking lots on it. Abele has been doing so well, he needs to man up and just sell the lots the county owns and give it to the city. Enough with the parking lots already! Try harder to get quality developments built in the park east corridor.

Split the lots up into smaller parcels and have some real density there. Mix it up, don't just look to hit a home run. Why not talk to herb Kohl and have some of the area slated for the building of a new arena along with an entertainment district? Have Potawatomi build an annex to their casino there along with a hotel. With the Moderne going up this area is due for some more development, Downtown Milwaukee simply doesn't need any more parking. Let people carpool or better yet take mass transit. Milwaukee has to stop enabling people with all this terrible parking, let them walk a little, lord knows plenty of people in our metro area could use the exercise.

Lastly some very bad news :(

Abele said county officials are developing plans to turn vacant Park East Freeway corridor land into temporary parking lots.
http://urbanismnews.com/wi/milwaukee/abele-some-park-east-land-could-provide-temporary-parking

Damn it! The more things change, the more they stay the same :ohno:
Seriously, does anybody else not see how backwards this is? I'd rather leave the lots empty than put up more surface parking lots on it. Abele has been doing so well, he needs to man up and just sell the lots the county owns and give it to the city. Enough with the parking lots already! Try harder to get quality developments built in the park east corridor.

Split the lots up into smaller parcels and have some real density there. Mix it up, don't just look to hit a home run. Why not talk to herb Kohl and have some of the area slated for the building of a new arena along with an entertainment district? Have Potawatomi build an annex to their casino there along with a hotel. With the Moderne going up this area is due for some more development, Downtown Milwaukee simply doesn't need any more parking. Let people carpool or better yet take mass transit. Milwaukee has to stop enabling people with all this terrible parking, let them walk a little, lord knows plenty of people in our metro area could use the exercise.


I guess I don't understand why this is such a bad thing. The land is not selling and is sitting empty and idle. Why not make some money from it to help supplement the county budget. Everyone on this strand is so pro transit, why not use some the revenue from these temporary lots to fund MCTS.
As long as everyone understands that these lots are only temporary and the land is still for sale, why not get some sort of benefit from it.

^^ because it will probably take just as much money to build those parking lots, thus not making any profits for MCTS.

Besides, some have stated early that Milwaukee is already saturated with parking.

^^ because it will probably take just as much money to build those parking lots, thus not making any profits for MCTS.

Besides, some have stated early that Milwaukee is already saturated with parking.

I am sure that it will not be a matter of a few dollars to build these parking lots, but to say that they will be completely unprofitable for the county is a little much I think. If the county charged $10 a day for someone to park their car in a lot and the lot had say 100 spaces, even with it only half full a day it would make $500. Multiply that by 365 days and you end up with $182,500 a year for only half filling the lot everyday.
Again I am not saying that these lots should be permanent, far from it. However as long as it doesn't cost too much to construct them some money from otherwise empty land is better than nothing for the time being.

Does anyone know when the next opportunity to apply for federal funds will be for the streetcar extensions?

Some news on the streetcar front, hurray!

http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2011/06/16/milwaukee-streetcar-at-apex-moment/

Does anyone know when the next opportunity to apply for federal funds will be for the streetcar extensions?

There are a few different grant programs that occur throughout the year (depending how directly for the route the city would want the funding). TIGER , CMAQ, and a few others. If I had to guess the city won't apply again until they've got a shovel in the ground on the starter system.

Lakefront transit center tear down could come at a lower cost
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel
June 17, 2011 7:00 a.m.

The cost of replacing the Downtown Transit Center with development overlooking Milwaukee's lakefront could end up being a bit less than originally thought.

The transit center and neighboring O'Donnell Park sit on 7 acres that are being studied for their long-range development potential.

But one potential obstacle has been the belief that a big part of $13.7 million in federal funds used to build the transit center might have to be paid back to the federal government if the center is replaced with development.

However, that doesn't appear to be the case, says Glen Bultman, a County Board research analyst.

That's because the transit center is so underused, Butman said this week at a meeting of the Long-Range Lakefront Planning Committee. That group of public and private officials will submit to the County Board recommendations on the future of O'Donnell Park, the transit center, and nearby areas.

"Even if there was a payback, it would be very, very small," Bultman said.

The transit center was built in the early 1990s, and has been largely underused after express bus service from downtown to the far northwest side was dropped because of low ridership....
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/124032009.html

Lakefront transit center tear down could come at a lower cost
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel
June 17, 2011 7:00 a.m.

The cost of replacing the Downtown Transit Center with development overlooking Milwaukee's lakefront could end up being a bit less than originally thought.

The transit center and neighboring O'Donnell Park sit on 7 acres that are being studied for their long-range development potential.

But one potential obstacle has been the belief that a big part of $13.7 million in federal funds used to build the transit center might have to be paid back to the federal government if the center is replaced with development.

However, that doesn't appear to be the case, says Glen Bultman, a County Board research analyst.

That's because the transit center is so underused, Butman said this week at a meeting of the Long-Range Lakefront Planning Committee. That group of public and private officials will submit to the County Board recommendations on the future of O'Donnell Park, the transit center, and nearby areas.

"Even if there was a payback, it would be very, very small," Bultman said.

The transit center was built in the early 1990s, and has been largely underused after express bus service from downtown to the far northwest side was dropped because of low ridership....
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/124032009.html


This is very good news, this area has been underutilized for way too long. I never understood the logic of placing a transit center essentially on the fringe of downtown instead of in the middle of it so it was closer to more places of business. Anyways I do believe that relocating these functions to the Intermodal Station is the best idea possible. Renovating the station to create a well located hub for all of the city's transit was an oustanding idea.

Foreclosed Park Lafayette Towers reaches 90% occupancy rate

By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel

June 17, 2011 10:52 a.m. |(1) COMMENTS

The foreclosed Park Lafayette Towers development has 90% of its units being leased as apartments, the project's property manager announced Friday.
Park Lafayette, with twin 20-story towers at N. Prospect Ave. and E. Lafayette Place. was acquired in January by Park Lafayette Property Holdings LLC, an affiliate of the loan fund that financed its construction. That loan fund is managed by New York-based Amalgamated Bank.
Only eight units at Park Lafayette were sold before Amalgamated Bank filed a foreclosure suit in 2009 against the project developer, an investment group led by Chicagoan Warren Barr.
Amalgamated Bank hired Mandel Property Services Inc., a subsidiary of Mandel Group Inc., to manage Park Lafayette. At that time, the 280-unit property had a 65% occupancy rate.
Park Lafayette Holdings will operate the development as a luxury apartment community "into the foreseeable future," a Mandel statement said.
" Future plans for selling condominium units are dependent upon recovery of the housing market in metropolitan Milwaukee," the statement said.

and

Marriott hotel to preserve more of historic downtown buildings

By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel

June 17, 2011 10:03 a.m. |(8) COMMENTS

The 200-room Marriott hotel planned for downtown will preserve more of the historic buildings on the project site than originally proposed, the developer announced Friday.
Jackson Street Management LLC has reduced the size of the hotel's ballroom by about half, and moved it from the second floor to the ground floor. As a result, the hotel, to be built near the southwest corner of E. Wisconsin Ave. and N. Milwaukee St., will be nine floors instead of 10 floors.
Those changes make it possible to preserve all of the facades of the 19th century buildings along Wisconsin Ave., as well as an 80-foot deep portion of those buildings, said Evan Zeppos, Jackson Street Management spokesman. In total, around 30,000 square feet of the existing buildings on Wisconsin Ave. will be preserved.
He said the plan to demolish all of the buildings along Milwaukee St., including their facades, remains the same. The developers say those buildings are in such poor condition that preserving their facades isn't possible.
The change drew praise from both Mayor Tom Barrett and Ald. Bob Bauman, whose district includes downtown.
Bauman is a member of the city Historic Preservation Commission, which had approved Jackson Street's $50 million proposal but added a condition that required the hotel to include a 15-foot setback from Milwaukee St.
The preservation commission wanted the setback so the hotel would better blend in with two adjacent historic structures: the McGeoch Building, owned by architect David Uihlein at the corner of Milwaukee and Michigan streets, and the Johnson Bank building, at the corner of Milwaukee St. and Wisconsin Ave.
Jackson Street owners Ed Carow and Mark Flaherty said the setback would have required them to add substantial costs to the project. They appealed that condition to the Common Council, and Bauman was one of only two aldermen who voted against that appeal.
“The hotel now will preserve more of Milwaukee’s history, and that’s a positive development,”
Bauman said in a statement.
“I’m glad the developers have approached this project carefully, and I support this move," Bauman said. "If done right, the new Marriott will enhance downtown, grow our tax base and generate jobs. I look forward to the upcoming groundbreaking.”
Jackson Street Management plans to complete its purchase of the building site by mid-summer, with demolition work to begin shortly thereafter, Zeppos said.

Some news on the streetcar front, hurray!

http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2011/06/16/milwaukee-streetcar-at-apex-moment/

Thanks for sharing, Jeramey.

Does that interface on the bottom of the screen send an email message to the Alderperson of one's choice to voice an opinion on the topic? It looks pretty convenient.

@embora yup that is what the form is for, please voice your support!

done :)

Some news on the old pizza man location. Word is there will be a building with multiple commercial spots for lease, underground parking, and 1 of the units will be filled with a papa johns that is currently on brady street

anybody live in the districts of Murphy, Zielinski, Hines, Donovan, Dudzik, Bohl, Puente or Davis? They are the ones who need convincing on the streetcar project (according to my sources). Several of them are on the fence.. the only true opposition is coming from Donovan and Dudzik (probably lost causes) but it is worth sending them emails if you live in their districts and tell them why the streetcar makes sense for Milwaukee.

Some news on the old pizza man location. Word is there will be a building with multiple commercial spots for lease, underground parking, and 1 of the units will be filled with a papa johns that is currently on brady street

Good news, I hope some residential will be included above. I think a 3 story building here would be pretty appropriate. Wouldn't mind seeing some new office space on the upper floors as well. Really the one thing lacking in the North Ave. corridor is some new office space.

I live in Dudzik's district, and already emailed him.

I live in Dudzik's district, and already emailed him.

Great, thanks. Did you get a response back from him by any chance? A few of the alderpersons I emailed did write me back, which is always encouraging.

Great, thanks. Did you get a response back from him by any chance? A few of the alderpersons I emailed did write me back, which is always encouraging.

He actually emailed me back right away, but it was one of those "thanks for your input..." brush-off emails. I don't expect too much from him, nor from my neighbors who tend to be pretty old and/or conservative, but I figured it couldn't hurt.

You must not know anyone at all. Not your parents; Not your teachers; Not your friends or acquaintances; Not your road builders or street cleaners or sanitation workers; Not your police or fire fighters or insurance brokers or house builders or building inspectors or building code authors or lawyers (including business and title attorneys) or bankers (and we've had a taste of what can go wrong when they believe the rest of society doesn't matter) or everyone else, including prior generations of workers, both public and private who have enabled the overwhelming riches of our surroundings and allowed you to partake of that bounty.

I'm sure your inborn gifts would let you lead the same life, for better or worse, at any other time or in any other place, like in Somalia, or during the Great Depression.

By nearly all measures Wisconsin enjoys a very high quality of life, and a great deal of that stems from a desire to both protect all of its residents from exploitation and abuse, and to extend opportunity for advancement and enrichment to all of its citizens.
Call that what you will: Socialism, Progressive-ism, The Wisconsin Idea.

It sure as hell isn't Me-ism.

Cheers to that. :cheers1:

Was In Milwaukee the past 2 days watching a family member play for the Rays. Wish I could get up there more during the year. Very impressed with the Brewers stadium, even though had a hard time remeber which side the Eucker lot was. Downtown, was impressed by the condos, however thought more of a beach area would be present. Erosion? Anyway, I really plan on spending more time in Milwaukee then I have in the past 5 years. Lot of highway construction, but I guess it has to get done some time. The drive into Mitchell was pretty easy however. Milwaukee is a cool city.

Downtown, was impressed by the condos, however thought more of a beach area would be present. Erosion? ...Milwaukee is a cool city.
There actually are no beaches off Downtown.
The nearest is McKinley, about a mile north; very small and hemmed in by the Marina and rock jetties and piers:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/looksee/Decorated%20images/mckbeach.jpg

About a mile north of that is Bradford Beach, a large strand and much restored and improved in recent years:
CREDIT: AMY S., YELP.COM
http://s3-media4.px.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/-r-r67zC8G93nhAGjP74nw/l.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/looksee/Decorated%20images/BEACHES.jpg

That is what I meant

Glad you had a good time IndyYeah,

I would definitely recommend one of the local brewery tours (if your a fan of beer) next time you make it up here.

Lakefront Brewery is my favorite, but get there early for your tickets!!

Milwaukee 39th in metro population rankings

The Business Journal

Date: Friday, June 24, 2011, 11:19am CDT - Last Modified: Friday, June 24, 2011, 11:27am

The Milwaukee area has added population, but remained the 39th-largest metropolitan area in America, according to national estimates released Friday morning.
New figures from American City Business Journals estimate the population of the Milwaukee-Waukesha-West Allis metro at 1,562,406 as of July 1, 2011, which is a week from today. Data covers information from the 2010 census.
For comparison, two years ago the Milwaukee metro population was 1,559,667, which then was also 39th in the country. That data was based on U.S. Census Bureau estimates from the 2000 census.
Click here for the latest population estimates for all 942 metropolitan and micropolitan areas across the United States.
American City Business Journals' Business First of Buffalo has developed a computer program that projects the current populations of metros and micros throughout the United States, based on an analysis of demographic trends since 2000. Updates are published periodically in the newspaper and on its website.
New York City, with an estimated population of 18.97 million as of July 1, remains the most populous metropolitan area in America. It’s followed by Los Angeles (12.89 million), Chicago (9.51 million), Dallas-Fort Worth (6.53 million) and Houston (6.12 million).
Business First’s formula also projects the dates on which various markets will hit future population milestones. Philadelphia, which is sixth in the metro rankings, is projected to reach the 6 million mark on July 29.

Report: Milwaukee is good market for hotel investors

The Business Journal

Date: Thursday, June 23, 2011, 2:45pm CDT

Milwaukee is an opportunistic market for hotel investment, according to a report released Thursday by The Plasencia Group Inc., a Tampa, Fla.-based hospitality consultant firm.
Milwaukee was among a list of about 20 cities, including Austin, Texas; Charlotte, N.C.; Houston; Minneapolis; and San Diego that “offer great return potential to investors, and possibly the greatest increase in asset values over the next three to four years.”
The hospitality industry is seeing a resurgence, with occupancy rates and, to a lesser extent, room rates rising following a huge drop in the beginning of the recession. But investors are still skittish and looking for more certainty from the economy, the report said.

Could this bode well for another hise-rise hotel project or two in the next couple of years?

Glad you had a good time IndyYeah,

I would definitely recommend one of the local brewery tours (if your a fan of beer) next time you make it up here.

Lakefront Brewery is my favorite, but get there early for your tickets!!

Yeah thanks. I will and the Harley museum as well. I have some other places that someone filled me in on where to go as well. I will make any Tampa games , however my kids will want to get to Miller Park this year to see that place, since they missed this trip. I went to a cool kinda college restaurant for breakfast, it had a cool sounding name. Anyway, it was by an older Jimmy Johns by the university, had a sand suffleboard table inside the place. Anyway, if know the place, excellent omlets. Thanks again.

Someone with a subscription will have to give us the rest of the details...

Staybridge hearings a step toward resolution
The Business Journal - by Sean Ryan
Date: Friday, June 24, 2011, 5:00am CDT
Scott Paulus

Work on the failed Staybridge Suites began in 2007, but was halted in spring 2009.


Three groups are vying to recover money from the failed downtown Milwaukee Staybridge Suites hotel development, and at least two seem anxious to get the building sold and completed quickly.

Construction began on the Staybridge at East Juneau Avenue and North Water Street in 2007, but work halted mid-project and the building remains unfinished. Developers, investors and contractors have started numerous legal battles that have halted completion of the building, but they are inching toward a resolution.

A Milwaukee County judge in early July will hold hearings to decide who will have first rights to money gleaned from the sale ...

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/print-edition/2011/06/24/staybridge-hearings-a-step-toward.html

Thanks to several people at my office having subscriptions to the Business Journal I ran through the article over lunch. The short version is that everyone (Icelandic investors, local contractors and a New York company which holds the mortgage) wants to get paid or at least recover some of their money. Until that happens via a court ruling, nothing will happen at the site. The major concern is the continuing deterioration of the building, due to the utilities being turned off and several harsh winters. Once the money issue is settled in court, the building may move forward. Either the Icelandic investors will purchase it from the receiver, or once the court proceedings are complete, the receiver may try to sell the property to a third party. The bottom line is that no one really knows what will happen and this court proceeding is another step towards the investors getting back some of their money. Rather than the project moving forward. :bash:

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/124607789.html


From Tom Daykin, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel:

City officials, including two Milwaukee aldermen, have reached an agreement with Mandel Group Inc. executives over a proposed $4.6 million city loan to help finance the expansion of the North End, a downtown apartment development.

The loan will need Common Council approval. It will have an 18-year term, with a 5.5% interest rate.

The Department of City Development also is proposing a $2.2 million grant from a tax incremental financing district to pay for street improvements. The grant, which needs council approval, would be repaid through property tax revenue generated by the North End and other projects within the Park East tax incremental financing district.

The North End's 83-unit first phase opened in 2009 along N. Water St., south of E. Pleasant St.

The $37 million second phase would feature a 100-unit building on the site's western portion, overlooking the Milwaukee River, and a 55-unit building on the northern portion of the site at Pleasant and Water streets.

Mandel executives and Department of City Development officials about a year ago began discussing the firm's initial request for an $8 million loan to help finance the North End's expansion.

In January, the department's consulting firm, S.B. Friedman & Co., proposed a $3.4 million loan. That lower amount was partly based on the city declining to recognize some of Mandel's development costs as a basis for requesting the larger loan.

That includes roughly $2 million Mandel spent to buy and prepare the development site, which formerly housed a tannery. The city hasn't allowed similar costs in past transactions, department officials said.

Since then, Ald. Nik Kovac, whose district includes the project site, and Ald. Michael Murphy, chairman of the Common Council's Finance and Personnel Committee, have been negotiating with Mandel in an effort to break the impasse between the city and Mandel Group.

Most of the expansion would be financed by Mandel selling tax-exempt bonds, totaling $26.2 million. Mandel is responsible for repaying that debt. Because investors buying the bonds do not pay taxes, they are willing to accept a lower interest rate from Mandel.

Other financing includes $5 million in cash equity from Mandel, according to the Department of City Development.

Loan terms include limiting Mandel's development fee to 3.86% of total development costs, or $1.43 million, and a personal guaranty from company owner Barry Mandel.

The term sheet also says the city doesn't plan to provide additional financing for future phases of the North End, or other downtown residential projects.

The council in 2009 approved $9.3 million in loans to help finance the Moderne, a $55.3 million apartment high-rise under construction at N. Old World St. and W. Juneau Ave.

:cheers:

ICC seeks development partner for parking lot
The Business Journal - by Sean Ryan
Date: Friday, July 1, 2011, 1:32pm CDT


The Italian Community Center is looking for a partner to help develop a hotel, or possibly offices, on the center’s 12-acre parking lot in Milwaukee’s 3rd Ward.

“We have a 60,000-square-foot conference center and adjacent to that is a parking lot that may not be the highest and best use,” said David Spano, president of the ICC and Annex Wealth Management LLC, Brookfield.

The center this week sent out a request for interest setting a Sept. 16 deadline for companies to propose development plans. Spano said the ICC prefers to retain ownership of the property and partner with another company on the project. The request for information encourages companies to submit at least three proposals, but requires that two of them be for an office building with first-floor retail, and a hotel development that includes restaurants and housing......
http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2011/07/01/icc-looks-for-development-partner.html

I'd like to see something dynamic here, finally!

ICC seeks development partner for parking lot

Kohl's new corporate headquarters? Hmmmmm.

Kohl's new corporate headquarters? Hmmmmm.

Kohl's need to build the new tallest in Milwaukee -- 50 stories, but downtown to help the skyline. Since Northwestern Mutual missed its chance for notoriety, this may be the best chance to have a local build something significant.

The ICC parking lot is the best option for Kohl's to put its corporate headquarters in Downtown Milwaukee. If a new multi-use Kohl's sponsored arena could be combined with a new office tower and blend in with the ICC building and convention space, it will be a great and well needed addition to Milwaukee.

I really don't think Kohl's would consider the ICC parking lot, not sure it is big enough. I'd much rather see the mixed-use neighborhood continue to expand there

Just a thought about Kohl's.

Wouldn't US Bank reconsider building the Lake Point Tower project (between the US Bank parking garage and the Transit Center), if it landed Kohl's corporate headquarters? I'm sure they (US Bank) wouldn't have any trouble with obtaining financing. If my memory serves my correct, all they needed was a couple large tenants; they already have a Westin Hotel (?).

Signing Kohl's on as a huge tenant would allow the building to go forward. US Bank probably would have to add another 10- 15 stories, making it 55+ floors, to the building to accommodate them. This would be give Kohl's a signature site, adjacent to the lakeshore, and the beautiful Gold Coast.

I believe this was the last render a couple years ago >http://rinkachung.com/Project%20Pages/Lake%20Pointe%20Tower/Lake%20Point%20Tower.php

Wouldn't this be the best site and chance for a new tallest?

Agreed with 3rd Coast...

Kohl's corporate at the ICC site just wouldn't really fit with the neighborhood I think. A huge corporate complex just doesnt seem like it would conitinue what the 3rd Ward has accomplished over the past two decades. Sure it'd be great to have a bunch of works for the businesses down there, but just doesnt make sense as the best option. If you're even possibly going to have that many workers injected into downtown it needs to be in the CBD. The Lake Point Tower is the perfect site...if they're coming downtown at all.

Great news, some of these places are in great need of renovation. I also find it encouraging that he is using his own money and that he thinks that area will be more lively in the near future. The Marriott hotel hasn't even been built yet and it is improving that area, hopefully the Moderne will encourage similar investment in the park east.

http://www.jsonline.com/newswatch/125037164.html

A former fast food restaurant, at the southeast corner of E. Wisconsin Ave. and N. Broadway, is about to undergo renovations to prepare it for new retail use.

When that work is completed, there will be around 2,400 square feet of first-floor corner retail space, said developer Michael Levine, who operates Next Generation Real Estate Inc.

It is part of a larger 19th century building, at 301-315 E. Wisconsin Ave., which includes Alem Ethiopian Village restaurant, and other restaurant and tavern space. The building, owned by Levine's MBI Properties LLC, wraps around the corner to include a beauty salon, at 630 N. Broadway.

Levine also will remove some walls to create access from Wisconsin Ave. to a stairwell and elevator, making the building's upper floors available for future commercial tenants. While Levine doesn't yet have tenants, he's confident that the street-level space will be filled within a reasonable period.

"I'm a big believer that change is on the horizon," Levine told me.

Levine also has begun renovating 4,000 square feet at 624 N. Broadway, just down the street. The Broadway space, previously part of a nightclub, will be one of three new locations for Downtown Books. It will be ready by Sept. 1, Levine said.

Downtown Books, now at 327 E. Wisconsin Ave., is relocating because its present home is among the buildings that will be razed or renovated for a new 200-room Marriott hotel. MBI Properties owns the Downtown Books building....

Great news, some of these places are in great need of renovation. I also find it encouraging that he is using his own money and that he thinks that area will be more lively in the near future. The Marriott hotel hasn't even been built yet and it is improving that area, hopefully the Moderne will encourage similar investment in the park east.


Also encouraging in my opinion is the three new locations for Downtown Books.

For those of you hoping Kohl's moves downtown, I have a little water.

I was drinking with a lady who had relocated from NY to work for Kohl's and she suggested that Kohl's had very little interest in moving away from its current location. She thought they were looking to create a "Google-like" semi-rural campus to attract talent (which they are having a hard time doing currently). The thought of moving all the talent who they have convinced to move to WI seemed unlikely in her opinion.

My summation is they are trying to play MF for all the benefits they can, while exploring renovation possibilities.

@qwerty44 I wouldn't be too impressed by the 'their own money thing', as they've sat on those properties for years and years slowly letting them decline. I'm just glad it appears they at least in the short run no longer have plans to demolish the Broadway buildings, which was their earlier plan.

PS This isn't only about the Marriott, though I imagine that's where the renovation money comes from, but the Loyalty building on Broadway is also being converted to a hotel...

For those of you hoping Kohl's moves downtown, I have a little water.

I was drinking with a lady who had relocated from NY to work for Kohl's and she suggested that Kohl's had very little interest in moving away from its current location. She thought they were looking to create a "Google-like" semi-rural campus to attract talent (which they are having a hard time doing currently). The thought of moving all the talent who they have convinced to move to WI seemed unlikely in her opinion.

My summation is they are trying to play MF for all the benefits they can, while exploring renovation possibilities.

That's been my theory all along. It just seems like it would be the easiest way for them to expand. Any word on when they will make a decision?

Cathedral Place TIF funds eyed for streetcar line
By Larry Sandler of the Journal Sentinel

A proposed modern streetcar line in downtown Milwaukee could be funded partly by a tax-incremental financing district originally formed for the Cathedral Place mixed-use development, under a draft plan released by city officials...

...According to the draft plan, which is still subject to change, the city would add that $9.7 million to the costs that need to be paid off by Tax Increment District No. 49, created to fund the Cathedral Place parking garage...

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/125206564.html

Good news I think. Does anyone know if there is a TIF for The Brewery, or is that all privately funded? If so a similar proposal could help to fund the extensions. I also think the city should push for some donations from the larger companies that are going to benefit from the line as well. Nothing huge, but if the city could pull together some 500k - 1m donations from several employers it would go a long way in helping get together the needed funds.

The streetcar lines goes through several existing TIF districts.

The Intermodal Station, Third Ward RiverWalk, Cathedral Place districts are all on "Initial Route."

The Grand Avenue, Park East, and The Brewery districts are all on the "Extension" route that runs up to the Pabst Brewery via 4th Street and Juneau Avenue.

The "Extension" route to/from Brady Street via Prospect/Farwell does not pass though any existing TIF districts.

Thanks for the info Markitect

The BIDs (Business Improvement Districts) (http://www.mkedcd.org/business/busbid.html) through which the streetcar line would pass is another potential funding source. They'd be perfect for raising money for smaller projects...like streetcape amenities, waiting shelters, landscaping, or maintenance around the streetcar stops. An analogous situation would be the bus shelter at Brady/Holton that the Brady Street BID commissioned.

Much of the Initial Route is contained within the Milwaukee Downtown and the Historic Third Ward BIDs. Part of the extension to The Brewery passes through the Westown BID. And part of the Brady Street extension runs through the Brady Street BID.

Of course, individual businesses, not just BIDs, could provide some support too, through sponsorships/advertising or even offering to provide some infrastructure. Companies could sponsor streetcars or waiting shelters, like they do in Portland. Another local bus shelter example is the one NML built in front of its HQ on Wisconsin Avenue.

I was just perusing the Rinka Chung website and came across this two renderings. The first is a prospective office building addition to the old Mandel Printing building on the corner of Old Word 3rd and McKinley Blvd.

http://www.rinkachung.com/Project%20Pages/Mandel%20Printing/Images/Mandel-3.gif

The second is somewhere in the 5th Ward. Not sure where or what. Never heard of Milwaukee Brewing Company unless that is just a generic name for some small brewery.

http://www.rinkachung.com/Project%20Pages/MKEBREWING/Images/MKEBREW1.JPG

Just thought I would share. Not share if or who potential tenants might be.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/DSC03210.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/DSC03208.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/DSC03209.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/DSC03213.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/DSC03212.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/DSC03216.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/DSC03214.jpg

Milwaukee Brewing Company is the Milwaukee Ale House guys, they are already in that building, but have plans to remodel it, as shown in that rendering.

@Boatnurd - What is that last picture of?

@Boatnurd - What is that last picture of?

The new UW-Milwaukee School of Public Heath in the The Brewery Development.

@Boatnurd - What is that last picture of?

That is in the Pabst Brewery project area. They are renovating this building for something for the life of me I forget. I will get the info soon and post. I was in a hurray and neglected to add captions.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/DSC03210.jpg


Nice shots.
It's great the way you show the skyline embracing and complementing these new projects.

Via Milwaukee Business Journal...A New York City development firm is requesting city of Milwaukee and state support to buy and renovate a building in the former Pabst Brewing Co. complex to develop a $22.5 million, 124-unit senior housing project.
The building is on the south side of West Juneau Avenue in The Brewery redevelopment. Once renovated, the building would offer independent and assisted-living apartments to seniors.
Whitestone Realty Capital LLC, New York City, has proposed the project with investor Robert Lubin, owner of Robert Lubin & Associates PC, a law firm based in Herndon, Va., said Michael Zukerman, managing director of Milwaukee Pabst Senior Housing LP, the project developer.
“We’re working with a fellow who has done some financing of a project over in Lake Geneva and he was looking to expand into the Milwaukee area and he asked us to see if we could find something to do in downtown Milwaukee,” Zukerman said.
Zukerman said the development team wants to break ground as soon as possible, but the project timeline depends on approval of public financing. The group has asked for the city to help guarantee a $12 million loan. continue reading here (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/print-edition/2011/07/08/new-york-firm-proposes-senior-housing.html)...this neighborhood is becoming an interesting mix between the senior housing, beer-themed hotel, and academic uses.

Followed the link from UrbanMilwaukee about the proposed moratorium on food cart/truck vendors. This is absolutely rediculous. We final get something going in Milwaukee that's going to add to the vibrancy on the street in many places, at many times during the day, and the police chief is going to complain about obstruction to right of way...

This city's police have a H*** of a lot more issues to worry about first before they start complaining about food trucks.

Milwaukee streetcar facility site chosen

The Business Journal - by Sean Ryan

Date: Monday, July 11, 2011, 2:46pm CDT

The Milwaukee streetcar plan proposes to build a more than $8.7 million maintenance facility beneath the interstate on Clybourn Street near the Milwaukee Intermodal Station.
The city’s $64.6 million streetcar system will require a facility to service the four streetcars that will run the routes. After analyzing three sites in detail, the city selected an empty lot on the southwest corner of Clybourn and Fourth streets beneath Interstate 794. The facility would have administration offices, two maintenance bays and a shop with storage areas.
The state-owned property won out because of its proximity to the streetcar route, which starts at the Intermodal Station, availability and lower potential for tax-producing development by private companies.
The Wisconsin Department of Transportation has kicked around the option of trying to find a company that would use the site and others underneath the Marquette Interchange, but nothing has come of that thus far.
The other two sites that were considered for the streetcar facility also are in the shadow of the interstate, according to the city’s streetcar plan. The city also looked at the corner of East Buffalo and North Van Buren streets in the 3rd Ward, and a vacant site south of West St. Paul Avenue and east of the Marquette Interchange’s high-rise bridges.
Anyone curious to know more about the streetcar plan can attend an open house Monday from 4 to 6 p.m. at the Milwaukee Public Market , 400 N. Water St. Check back in later today for our coverage of the open house.

Milwaukee seeks developer for North Avenue library

The Business Journal - by Sean Ryan

Date: Monday, July 11, 2011, 3:32pm CDT

The city of Milwaukee set an Aug. 20 deadline for companies to submit redevelopment proposals for the public library in the heart of East North Avenue’s bustling retail district.
The city wants a partner to tear down the existing East Library building at 1910 E. North Ave., which was built in 1968, and construct a new mixed-use project that would have a street-level space for a new library. Additional floors in the building would be used for housing. The city is willing to part with the property for $20,000 so long as it gets condominium ownership of the library space free of charge.
The project plan is modeled after the redevelopment of the Villard Square Library, which was torn down and rebuilt as a mixed-use building with library space and 47 affordable apartments.
The North Avenue redevelopment proposal has been discussed since at least November, when we ran a story about the plan to issue a request for development proposals.
Under the city’s proposed timeline, proposals are due Aug. 20, and a review panel will narrow the field to two or three development ideas by late September. After public hearings in October, the Milwaukee Public Library Board in November will select a developer for the project.

So are the likely suspects on this Library rfp? Gorman and Engberg did Villard Square, so will probably try and keep the band together. Maybe Newland tries to make a comeback in their Eastside sweet spot? Would Vetter Denk ever try something like this? Seems sort of out of the norm for Mandel to try...

Streetcar hearing draws a crowd

The Business Journal - by Sean Ryan

Date: Monday, July 11, 2011, 5:27pm CDT

The Milwaukee streetcar open house drew a crowd on Monday, with many people lined up at the 4 p.m. start and about 120 people signed in 15 minutes later.
The $64.6 million project will build a two-mile streetcar line that would run cars on fixed tracks powered by overhead power lines. The streetcars would run from the Milwaukee Intermodal Station, past the Milwaukee Public Market where Monday’s open house was held, through the downtown and into the city’s lower east side. The city’s Common Council this month will consider approving the project, including $9.7 million in tax incremental financing to cover the local funding share. The remainder of the construction costs would come from a federal grant.
The public hearing was to introduce residents to the final draft plan for the streetcar project and collect public comments. Design boards laid out the financial plans for the project and its engineering details. Fares are $1 for a two-hour pass, $2 for a daily, $10 for a weekly, $40 for a monthly and $250 for an annual pass.
By the end of the day on Monday, almost 70 letters of support had been sent to city officials regarding the streetcar. Organizations that sent letters include Alterra Coffee and Bradley Center Sports and Entertainment Corp., and Milwaukee developers Zilber Ltd. , Van Buren Management Inc. and New Land Enterprises , all of which have developed buildings along the route.
Milwaukee’s Steering and Rules Committee meets on Thursday and may consider the project plan.

Cudahy urges route changes in streetcar service

By Larry Sandler of the Journal Sentinel

July 11, 2011

Philanthropist Michael Cudahy called Monday for Milwaukee officials to shift a proposed streetcar route east, closer to downtown lakefront attractions - including the Discovery World museum that he has nurtured.
But Mayor Tom Barrett says the route isn't likely to change unless engineers find problems with it.
Barrett is seeking to build a $64.6 million streetcar line downtown, using $54.9 million in long-idle federal transit aid and $9.7 million from a tax-incremental financing district originally created to fund the Cathedral Place development's parking garage.
City officials conducted a public information session Monday on the plan, which calls for running modern streetcars - similar to light-rail vehicles - every 10 minutes weekdays and every 15 minutes in early-morning, late-night and weekend service, starting in 2014. The issue will be considered Thursday by the Common Council's Steering & Rules Committee.
Measures before the panel would move the streetcar line forward and approve the tax-incremental financing plan. Future votes would still be needed on Barrett's plans to pay the system's $2.65 million annual operating costs through a mixture of fares, advertising and sponsorship revenue and parking fees, and to contract with the nonprofit company that runs the county bus system to run the streetcars as well.
The planned route runs from the lower east side to the downtown Amtrak-Greyhound station, on E. Ogden Ave., N. Van Buren St. (northbound) and N. Jackson St. (southbound), E. Wells St., N. Broadway and St. Paul Ave. City officials will seek another $45 million to $50 million in federal aid to extend the route northeast, on N. Prospect Ave. (northbound) and N. Farwell Ave. (southbound) just past E. Brady St., and northwest, on N. 4th St. and W. Juneau Ave. to the Pabst Brewery redevelopment.
Cudahy is pressing to drop the Wells St. and Broadway segments, so the line would run straight along Van Buren and Jackson streets to E. St. Paul Ave. He said that would bring passengers nearer to Discovery World, the science and technology museum for which he has been chief benefactor; the Milwaukee Art Museum; and the Summerfest grounds, which together, he said, account for 1.5 million visitors a year.
At the same time, Cudahy has been pushing to turn the lakefront sites now occupied by the county's O'Donnell Park parking garage - home to the Betty Brinn Children's Museum and Coast restaurant - and Downtown Transit Center into a mixed-use development, possibly including an office tower and a hotel. He is also co-owner of the Harbor House restaurant, on city-owned lakefront land.
"There's no reason at all why we can't go down there," Cudahy said of his route.
But Barrett said the current route was carefully chosen, based on population density and likely destinations. Streetcars would run within a quarter-mile of every downtown hotel room, 91% of occupied retail space, 90% of occupied office space and 77% each of downtown housing and parking lots.
Cudahy has long backed the streetcar idea, but this isn't the first time he's disputed the details. In 2007, when Barrett was pushing a loop route, Cudahy touted a two-route system that would extend from the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee to Marquette University and from the Amtrak station to the north side.
The loop has since been dropped in favor of a route with some aspects of Cudahy's 2007 proposal and potential future extensions to UWM, Marquette, the north side and other destinations.

splat8 - Can you please make sure to include links to the articles you post? Thanks.

Yes, I will make sure to include links to the stories I post from now on i_am_hydrogen. I am sorry for not doing so before, I assumed that since I cited where I got them from and who wrote them that I did not need to include a link. However I will definitely do this from now on.

I think the key is just getting a shovel in the ground for a starter route. Extensions can always be added as evident by the future route extensions presented. http://www.milwaukeestreetcar.com/route.php

I think Cudahy knows that those might be awhile and is trying to ensure that the route reaches near his attractions....which they should.

I think Cudahy knows that those might be awhile and is trying to ensure that the route reaches near his attractions....which they should.

I tend to disagree, I think the only way the streetcar has a chance to be expanded is if it connects as many permanent residents to locations like restaurants, bars, stores, etc. as possible.
This streetcar system is not the monorail at Disney World connecting attractions, it needs to be useful for everyday actions for it to gain popularity and support. I think you would have to agree that you average resident of the City of Milwaukee does not go to the lakefront attractions frequently enough to justify the streetcar running by it at this stage.
Besides, I know that Miller Park is way out of the way for the current streetcar allignment but I would rather have that connected first. I have gone to baseball games in St. Louis and these give their Metro Rail a huge boost in ridership. I know tailgaiting is important to Brewer games, but maybe people would like to ride the streetcar into downtown after games as long as their vehicles can remain in the stadium lot.

I tend to disagree, I think the only way the streetcar has a chance to be expanded is if it connects as many permanent residents to locations like restaurants, bars, stores, etc. as possible.
This streetcar system is not the monorail at Disney World connecting attractions, it needs to be useful for everyday actions for it to gain popularity and support. I think you would have to agree that you average resident of the City of Milwaukee does not go to the lakefront attractions frequently enough to justify the streetcar running by it at this stage.
Besides, I know that Miller Park is way out of the way for the current streetcar allignment but I would rather have that connected first. I have gone to baseball games in St. Louis and these give their Metro Rail a huge boost in ridership. I know tailgaiting is important to Brewer games, but maybe people would like to ride the streetcar into downtown after games as long as their vehicles can remain in the stadium lot.

I don't think you understand what I was saying. There is only enough funding to finance a particular starter route. The current route selected was based on an in depth study of density, proximity to attractions, etc. Cudahy doesn't like the initial route because it doesn't run close enough to his attractions (i.e. Discovery World, Harbor House) My point is that we need to get shovels in the ground, so that we can show the powers that be at the fed level that we're serious enough to qualify for more funds that will extend the route to places like Miller Park, etc. I think the most important extensions will be North, South and West to neighborhoods that will connect workers to downtown jobs. It would be great to have extensions all the way out to places like Shorewood, Bayview, and Waukesha giving even white collar workers who work downtown a transportation alternative. We need to get a starter system going however...it's been far too long!

With all this Streetcar talk I thought I'd post an article/form from UrbanMilwaukee.com where you can send your support to the Milwaukee Common Council. Check it out: http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2011/07/08/keep-the-milwaukee-streetcar-moving-forward/

I don't think you understand what I was saying. There is only enough funding to finance a particular starter route. The current route selected was based on an in depth study of density, proximity to attractions, etc. Cudahy doesn't like the initial route because it doesn't run close enough to his attractions (i.e. Discovery World, Harbor House) My point is that we need to get shovels in the ground, so that we can show the powers that be at the fed level that we're serious enough to qualify for more funds that will extend the route to places like Miller Park, etc. I think the most important extensions will be North, South and West to neighborhoods that will connect workers to downtown jobs. It would be great to have extensions all the way out to places like Shorewood, Bayview, and Waukesha giving even white collar workers who work downtown a transportation alternative. We need to get a starter system going however...it's been far too long!

Maybe I did misunderstand you. I thought you meant that the streetcar route should run by the lakefront instead of it's current chosen route. I did not agree with that on the basis that it would not attract enough ridership.
I wholeheartedly agree with you that if extensions were to be built they need to extend to neighborhoods that will allow workers to ride to their jobs. That was my only point, that the starter system needs to attract enough ridership to garner interest in further route extensions. Again sorry if I misunderstood your point.

I also disagree with Cudahy's desire to reroute the starter route. As it stands, the route is perfect for residents in the Brady/lower East Side area to quickly get to the restaurants on Broadway/Milwaukee... or to the Milwaukee Public Market, or to the Third Ward cheaply, and of course vice versa for those along the route. It's perfect for moving the areas of highest density in the city to other areas of density in the city. Even so, if someone wants to hit the Art Museum or Discovery World, they can get off at Wells, and walk down Mason to the Art Museum Bridge in very little time.

All that said, I really hope they can build the extensions to the starter route.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/landandspace.html

Business group writes new downtown strategic plan
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel

The Milwaukee Downtown Business Improvement District, a group funded by downtown's businesses and commercial property owners, has drafted its new strategic plan...


Work begins immediately on east side apartments after loan closing
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel

Wangard Partners Inc. has closed on its financing for the 68-unit 1910 on Water apartment building, and will immediately begin work on the east side project, the firm announced Tuesday.

Demolition of the two existing vacant buildings on the property will be the first step, followed by construction of the new building. The apartments are to be completed by summer of 2012...



I like the design of the Wangard property, should really add some color to that stretch too.

Senior living facility planned for historic Pabst brewery buildings
Published July 13, 2011 - Real Estate Weekly

Previous | 5 of 16 | Next

New York-based Whitestone Realty Capital LLC is planning a redevelopment project to create a 124-unit senior apartment complex in the former Malt House building and the former Malt Elevator building, located southwest of North 10th Street and West Juneau Avenue, in the former Pabst brewery complex in downtown Milwaukee.

Whitestone also wanted to do build a Holiday Inn hotel on a vacant site in the Pabst brewery complex, but city officials said they would not support it because there are several other hotel developments currently in the works downtown, Zuckerman said. Continued here (http://www.biztimes.com/realestateweekly/2011/7/13/senior-living-facility-planned-for-historic-pabst-brewery-buildings)

Interesting about the Holiday Inn. I don't understand why the city wouldn't support it. Isn't the developer's job to evaluate if it makes economic sense to build or not? I do agree that having a Holiday Inn in that particular location doesn't make sense, considering that the Beer themed hotel is already in the works there. Thoughts?

Continued here (http://www.biztimes.com/realestateweekly/2011/7/13/senior-living-facility-planned-for-historic-pabst-brewery-buildings)

Interesting about the Holiday Inn. I don't understand why the city wouldn't support it. Isn't the developer's job to evaluate if it makes economic sense to build or not? I do agree that having a Holiday Inn in that particular location doesn't make sense, considering that the Beer themed hotel is already in the works there. Thoughts?

I don't have a problem with a Holiday Inn at this location as long as it's design is in harmony with it's surroundings. I seem to recall reading several articles in the last year stating that downtown Milwaukee is in need of more hotel rooms. Also more development like this equals more property tax dollars for the city which I believe the city could really use. Denying a proposal like this makes no sense to me at all no matter what the location is.

Is there any development proposals for the former Gallun Tannery Site on the west side of Water Street between the Holton Viaduct and Pro Graphics? I know that RFP Commercial is listing the site for a mixed use development opportunity and its the last vacant piece of land available on the Milwaukee River south of North Avenue. I would like to see a development similar to Harborfront and Hansen's Landing on Erie Street where you have a mix of condos, apartments, restaurants, small office and boat slips. I hope that the developer of those projects considers the Gallun site on Water Street.

Streetcar hearing draws a crowd

The Business Journal - by Sean Ryan

Date: Monday, July 11, 2011, 5:27pm CDT

The Milwaukee streetcar open house drew a crowd on Monday, with many people lined up at the 4 p.m. start and about 120 people signed in 15 minutes later.
The $64.6 million project will build a two-mile streetcar line that would run cars on fixed tracks powered by overhead power lines. The streetcars would run from the Milwaukee Intermodal Station, past the Milwaukee Public Market where Monday’s open house was held, through the downtown and into the city’s lower east side. The city’s Common Council this month will consider approving the project, including $9.7 million in tax incremental financing to cover the local funding share. The remainder of the construction costs would come from a federal grant.
The public hearing was to introduce residents to the final draft plan for the streetcar project and collect public comments. Design boards laid out the financial plans for the project and its engineering details. Fares are $1 for a two-hour pass, $2 for a daily, $10 for a weekly, $40 for a monthly and $250 for an annual pass.
By the end of the day on Monday, almost 70 letters of support had been sent to city officials regarding the streetcar. Organizations that sent letters include Alterra Coffee and Bradley Center Sports and Entertainment Corp., and Milwaukee developers Zilber Ltd. , Van Buren Management Inc. and New Land Enterprises , all of which have developed buildings along the route.
Milwaukee’s Steering and Rules Committee meets on Thursday and may consider the project plan.
Reports are coming in regarding the estimated cost of utility relocations that will be needed in ONE BLOCK of N Broadway should this project go forward - it will likely exceed the actual construction cost of the rest of the project and take a minimum of two years to do the work BEFORE one bit of track can be installed.

I'll post links when I can find them.

Mike

Reports are coming in regarding the estimated cost of utility relocations that will be needed in ONE BLOCK of N Broadway should this project go forward - it will likely exceed the actual construction cost of the rest of the project and take a minimum of two years to do the work BEFORE one bit of track can be installed.

I'll post links when I can find them.

Mike

This might make them look closer at running the route on Jackson/Van Buren for the entire stretch instead. It'll be interesting to hear more... thanks for the info.

Reports are coming in regarding the estimated cost of utility relocations that will be needed in ONE BLOCK of N Broadway should this project go forward - it will likely exceed the actual construction cost of the rest of the project and take a minimum of two years to do the work BEFORE one bit of track can be installed.

I'll post links when I can find them.

Mike

Mike, while I'm not doubting what you've heard/seen, something seems awfully fishy about that figure. More than $30m (construction costs less the vehicle and management/contingency costs) to relocate utilities on one block of Broadway?? Whats down there, a nuclear reactor? Here in Minneapolis, utility relocation for the central corridor is no where near a $30 million per block figure, and the utility work for the central corridor lrt is much more extensive than required for the Milwaukee Streetcar. Also, what could they have found recently that they missed during preliminary engineering for the alternatives analysis that would inflate the costs so high? Something seems off.

Mike, while I'm not doubting what you've heard/seen, something seems awfully fishy about that figure. More than $30m (construction costs less the vehicle and management/contingency costs) to relocate utilities on one block of Broadway?? Whats down there, a nuclear reactor? Here in Minneapolis, utility relocation for the central corridor is no where near a $30 million per block figure, and the utility work for the central corridor lrt is much more extensive than required for the Milwaukee Streetcar. Also, what could they have found recently that they missed during preliminary engineering for the alternatives analysis that would inflate the costs so high? Something seems off.
Right at the corner of Broadway/Mason is AT&T's main switch for central Milwaukee and cables/underground junction boxes carrying telecom/internet traffic for the entire SE part of Wisconsin pass under that block of Broadway on their way in and out of the building. There are manhole accesses for it all all up and down the street that would have to be moved, as well as shielded from the DC power that would be carried by the rails (rail - neutral/overhead wire - hot). AT&T estimates $30M+ and two years minimum to relocate it all in that one block. Also, WE Energies has major electric, gas and steam mains serving most of the downtown Milwaukee area under Broadway.

Mike

Reports are coming in regarding the estimated cost of utility relocations that will be needed in ONE BLOCK of N Broadway should this project go forward - it will likely exceed the actual construction cost of the rest of the project and take a minimum of two years to do the work BEFORE one bit of track can be installed.

I'll post links when I can find them.

Mike

This is exactly what I was afraid of when it came to constructing this streetcar line. Tempe, Ariz. wants to buld a 2.6 mile streetcar line and when I was reading the article about this it said they were estimating it was going to take $160 million to build it and I believe the Seattle area streetcar cost around $56 million to construct around 1 1/2 miles. I have been wondering all along how we in Milwaukee were planning to build a similar length streetcar line for "only" $64 million.

One question on my part, I don't have any historic maps handy, but in the streetcar days (before the late 1950s), was there even car trackage on that part of Broadway? Many of these underground utility lines long predate the abandonment of the streetcar system.

Mike

Right at the corner of Broadway/Mason is AT&T's main switch for central Milwaukee and cables/underground junction boxes carrying telecom/internet traffic for the entire SE part of Wisconsin pass under that block of Broadway on their way in and out of the building. There are manhole accesses for it all all up and down the street that would have to be moved. AT&T estimates $30M+ and two years minimum to relocate it all in that one block. Also, WE Energies has major electric, gas and steam mains serving most of the downtown Milwaukee area under Broadway.

Mike

Thanks for the info mike. That's certainly an extenuating circumstance, though I still question a $30 million relocation figure. Unlike lrt, a streetcar trench is generally only two feet deep and eight feet wide, so I wonder how much will actually have to be moved. Relocating major electric, gas, and steam mains are par the course most rail infrastructure projects (i.e. the central corridor), so that shouldn't be the deal breaker. And most electromagnetic interference is pretty well mitigated now-a-days. Do you know if WE Energies is basing its figures off real data (i.e. they know for a fact their infrastructure must be moved) or is this just speculative posturing at this point? I'm quite intrigued.

One question on my part, I don't have any historic maps handy, but in the streetcar days (before the late 1950s), was there even car trackage on that part of Broadway? Many of these underground utility lines long predate the abandonment of the streetcar system.

Mike

I am going to hazard a guess about what the problem is even if there were streetcar tracks here and the utilities were underground. Just by looking at vintage streetcars versus modern ones I would bet older streetcars were not as heavy. Where you start having a problem is when a heavier vehicle runs over these buried utilities and causes the ground to compress and therefore the utilities underneath to flex. Over time this can cause pipes, cables, etc to possibly break. If anyone can verify this it would be great, I could not find weight statistics on either type of vehicle. However I am pretty sure by virtue of their lesser length and the types of materials, like in some cases wood versus metal, that older streetcars did weigh less.

Thanks for the info mike. That's certainly an extenuating circumstance, though I still question a $30 million relocation figure. Unlike lrt, a streetcar trench is generally only two feet deep and eight feet wide, so I wonder how much will actually have to be moved. Relocating major electric, gas, and steam mains are par the course most rail infrastructure projects (i.e. the central corridor), so that shouldn't be the deal breaker. And most electromagnetic interference is pretty well mitigated now-a-days. Do you know if WE Energies is basing its figures off real data (i.e. they know for a fact their infrastructure must be moved) or is this just speculative posturing at this point? I'm quite intrigued.
I haven't heard what WE Energies is estimating, but AT&T will have to move all of those underground cable junction manhole boxes, along with the cables leading into them. The two years+ is the estimate of the time needed to splice all of the cables together in the new manhole boxes (each one can only hold two workers).

I think it is mainly because the manholes are physically in the way of the track.

Mike

I am going to hazard a guess about what the problem is even if there were streetcar tracks here and the utilities were underground. Just by looking at vintage streetcars versus modern ones I would bet older streetcars were not as heavy. Where you start having a problem is when a heavier vehicle runs over these buried utilities and causes the ground to compress and therefore the utilities underneath to flex. Over time this can cause pipes, cables, etc to possibly break. If anyone can verify this it would be great, I could not find weight statistics on either type of vehicle. However I am pretty sure by virtue of their lesser length and the types of materials, like in some cases wood versus metal, that older streetcars did weigh less.

No offense, but I find this unlikely. The existing streets allow for large truck traffic to pass over these streets. I don't see how a streetcar, which isn't carrying a load of gravel... and also distributes it's load over 2 steel rails, would cause any issues.

That's all theoretical though, but still... it just doesn't make sense to me that weight would be an issue.

One question on my part, I don't have any historic maps handy, but in the streetcar days (before the late 1950s), was there even car trackage on that part of Broadway? Many of these underground utility lines long predate the abandonment of the streetcar system.

Mike

Historically a streetcar operated on Broadway between State and Michigan Streets though I'm pretty sure it was abandoned fairly early on.

No offense, but I find this unlikely. The existing streets allow for large truck traffic to pass over these streets. I don't see how a streetcar, which isn't carrying a load of gravel... and also distributes it's load over 2 steel rails, would cause any issues.

That's all theoretical though, but still... it just doesn't make sense to me that weight would be an issue.

You could be right but this is why I brought up the weight issue. A Siemens S70 streetcar weighs 96,500 lbs. empty or 48.25 tons. It has a maximum capacity of 195 people, so if we average the people's weight at 125 lbs. this would equal 24,375 lbs. or 12.18 tons. Combine the two and the streetcar would weigh around 60.43 tons fully loaded give or take 10 tons. A fully loaded truck weighs 80,000 lbs. without any extra permits. I looked this up and it is the fully loaded legal weight for interstate travel, so a fully loaded semi weighs less than an empty streetcar by 8.25 tons.


You are right though about this not being the only reason for utility relocation. I forgot that utilities are also relocated so when they need repair they do not interupt streetcar service, but weight can also be a factor.

Funny how At&T waited until the last second to bring this up.... hmmm I wonder why? Besides it is my understanding there are methods to alleviate this issue. On the WE side yes there will need to be some work, but that's known. And it is funny when these utilities want to rip up Milwaukee's streets or put an ugly box on the sidewalk no problem.

If this utility issue is accurate, then the Steering Committee and Rules Committee should not approve the proposed route this afternoon. I wonder if they could just shift the route to go East on Wisconsin to Van Buren?

Funny how At&T waited until the last second to bring this up.... hmmm I wonder why? Besides it is my understanding there are methods to alleviate this issue. On the WE side yes there will need to be some work, but that's known. And it is funny when these utilities want to rip up Milwaukee's streets or put an ugly box on the sidewalk no problem.

Unfotunately we don't know if AT&T brought this up at the last minute or not, this might have been known by all parties all along and they were hoping for more government grants to cover relocation?

And the reason these utilities have no problem riping up streets at times is because utilities need repair and replacement which these probably do not. I know everyone on this site wants the streetcar built, but we have to look at things realistically. Why would a private company voluntarily tear up infrastructure that does not need replacement?

I think the city was well aware of this all along and was keeping it quiet hoping some sort of solution would present itself before they would have to make this public.

@splat8 Actually we do know that (your welcome to call the city and ask or look in legistar the letter is date July 13th, 2011)... Watch Steering & Rules today I'm sure that point will be brought up.

Funny how At&T waited until the last second to bring this up.... hmmm I wonder why? Besides it is my understanding there are methods to alleviate this issue. On the WE side yes there will need to be some work, but that's known. And it is funny when these utilities want to rip up Milwaukee's streets or put an ugly box on the sidewalk no problem.

What seems strange to me, is that no one on the city side of things realized this during the basic P.E. for the alternatives analysis. You'd imagine something so costly would be recognized. Also, I just can't see why this would cost $30m and take two years. While this is anecdotal, during the construction of the Hiawatha and Central Corridor lrt lines, very similar communication and utility infrastructure in downtown Minneapolis and St. Paul was and is being relocated at a fraction of the cost and in a fraction of the time.

@splat8 Actually we do know that (your welcome to call the city and ask or look in legistar the letter is date July 13th, 2011)... Watch Steering & Rules today I'm sure that point will be brought up.

I am planning to read what happens at the Steering & Rules meeting today after hearing this. Realistically speaking there is no way that this should have happened. Even if we are to believe AT&T brought up some of this on their own at the last minute, than what was the purpose of the preliminary engineering?

How could they have not discovered that this was going to be a problem if they were doing their job properly? I fail to believe that they could not have discovered that these utilities were under the street on their own since you have to apply for a permit to do any sort of construction in a city. And if they discovered they were located there like they should have, should they have not contacted AT&T before we reached this point? Is that not what the job of preliminary engineering is?

I am actually upset with the city and it's team in this case for not doing what I see as their job, not AT&T. The city paid people to plan the streetcar route for around a year, AT&T did not have people on it's payroll checking to make sure that the city did not miss something. If this project ends up being put off or even cancelled because of this I think everyone who wants the streetcar built should contact city hall and ask how something this big could possibly been missed by their design team.

Again watch the meeting. Also the AT&T number is $10 million not $30.

Again watch the meeting. Also the AT&T number is $10 million not $30.

I just watched... total including AT&T, Gas, Steam, Electric... estimates up to ~$50MM.

I'm sure we'll hear more and these are not hard numbers.

I just watched... total including AT&T, Gas, Steam, Electric... estimates up to ~$50MM.

I'm sure we'll hear more and these are not hard numbers.

I really hope these relocation numbers end up way lower or else I think this project may be in serious trouble.

I looked up the cost for an extension of the Portland Streetcar completed in 2007 that was just .46 miles long with I believe only 10 stations which is way less than is planned on this route. It cost $11 million for track, $10 million for road reconstruction and traffic signage, and $4 million for stations and other items for a grand total of $25 million without utility relocation.

I am not calculating inflation, but these numbers would come out to the following for a 2 mile route like the one planned in Milwaukee: $44 million for track, $40 million for road construction and signage, and $16 million for stations and other items for a grand total of $100 million. Keep in mind that Portland already had a maintenance facility from the previous streetcar routes so that is not included in the total.

Wost case senario the total cost for the 2 mile streetcar in Milwaukee would be at least $150 million. If you think this is way out of wack remember my earlier post that said Tempe was requesting $160 million from the federal government to build a similar size streetcar so maybe they knew something we did not. In any case this has me seriously worried about the financial viability of this streetcar system.

I agree with Twoaday... these numbers seem WAAAY off. Manholes are incredibly easy to close and relocate, actually, so that would not account for any major expense. I'm suspicious, too, that there could be some back room politicking going on here by the anti-rail Belling/Sykes-headed tea people.

We can't blame the citizens of Milwaukee for voicing their support on this project including many posters on this forum (Way to go TwoADay!) I think there were some legit concerns raised, but the:banana Streetcar moves forward to Common Council!
:cheers:

Instead, Morics recommended that the council go no further than to approve the concept and authorize enough money for additional design and planning. Once more information is available on building and running the streetcar, then the mayor and council could decide whether to release the rest of the money, Morics wrote.



http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/125585453.html


So does this streetcar run in the curb lane and take out all street parking on its route. I can't find a straight answer to this one. If it does, do all these east siders know how much parking they are going to lose for a streecar that will never replace their car.

Boy, the costs of this free streetcar are sure starting to add up. 2M a year to run, tens of millions to move utilities and 50M for an extension (don't worry though, BO has that one.....yeah)

So after this is built, does this mean every new dollar development within a mile of this thing is directly credited to the building of the streetcar. Isn't that how the success if these systems is measured, by all dollars invested near their route since it was built. We only start counting development in the corridor once the streecar is built, and we completely disregard natural growth rates.

Life immidates art
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEZjzsnPhnw

I thought this nation was broke? There are probably 100 of these types of projects out there across the nation that collectively are part of the reason why we have such a huge national budget deficit. Lets put them all on hold until we have the resources to pay for them and pay down the national budget deficit first. After we get back on our feet, these are great projects that can be re-started. A streetcar is not an absolute necessity when you do not have the revenue to pay the cost and have buses that currently can continue service.

Looking at the streetcar web site, they estimate a ride will cost one dollar. Will take a lot of dollar rides to justify the 100 million dollar plus cost.

Looking at the streetcar web site, they estimate a ride will cost one dollar. Will take a lot of dollar rides to justify the 100 million dollar plus cost.

What about the added value of development along the line? What about the savings in not having to build additional parking structures after more people use the new line? Also I understand that the $100 Million has belonged to the Milwaukee area for the past 15 or 20 years so far, so it is not a new expenditure by the Federal Government that is adding to the debt.

@usbmfa "So does this streetcar run in the curb lane and take out all street parking on its route. I can't find a straight answer to this one. If it does, do all these east siders know how much parking they are going to lose for a streecar that will never replace their car."

No. It is a streetcar it runs in the street. 99% of on-street parking will be maintained along the route.

"So after this is built, does this mean every new dollar development within a mile of this thing is directly credited to the building of the streetcar. " No, but you can actually look into the Portland numbers as they do comparisons of before and after the line and the change is quite remarkable Very significant changes in density, and number of units.

Oh and the 2.65 million a year to run, is not from tax dollars. Municipal parking garages, parking meters, parking tickets, advertising, and farebox.

Oh and the 2.65 million a year to run, is not from tax dollars. Municipal parking garages, parking meters, parking tickets, advertising, and farebox.

Depends on how you want to look at this. Yes, technically the streetcar is supposed to be funded by these methods however if the city looses revenue from these sources that it currently uses to fund other projects are they not potentially going to have to raise taxes to make up for it?

This is why I do not like politicians, no matter what party they belong to. They deal in half-truths and samantics. If for instance you take parking garage revenue away and give it to the streetcar than where do you get the money to maintain the garage or pay for streetscape improvements which parking revenues can and do. Well, you just might have to raise taxes but you can say you aren't raising taxes for the streetcar. You are raising taxes for garages, streets, etc.

I just wish this elected officials would tell us the truth and not treat us like we are uniformed children. I have no problem paying a little extra for this project because I think it is worth it, just tell me the truth that I am paying more taxes for it.

...We only start counting development in the corridor once the streecar is built, and we completely disregard natural growth rates.
:bash:

lol.. I love how American conservatives believe that anything other than rail transit development is "natural". If I had one wish to be granted, it would be that Republicans be required to go back and take a 20th Century American History course so that they finally wake up and realize that there is no such thing as the "invisible hand" or "free market forces". To suggest that outside the streetcar project, all other economic factors are "natural growth rates" is laughable.
What about all the TIF funds for building developments, usbmfa? What about the federal, state and city development grants? What about the tax-funded streets and sidewalk projects? What about the public utilities and other infrastructure, usbmfa? Are those all "natural" free market-driven causes for economic development?

I used to be a naive libertarian way back when too, before I realised that you can't possibly expect a society to be free of public influence altogether and therefore it is unfair to withhold funding to some positive projects in the name of zero government influence when, in fact, other projects have been and will continue to be publicly funded. Libertarianism, like Communism, sounds good on paper but is not grounded in reality. There will always be publicly funded projects and that's fine, as long as those projects are studied and considered viable public investments. I wonder what libertarians would say about the Internet: a huge technological development that only came about because of a major government investment. Would they say it was an an evil "unnatural" force because the "market" didn't produce it? The so-called free-market is only capable of so much. It can't produce big projects that are a valuable public asset because it requires a collective movement at the public level. Roads, utilities, the Milwaukee Streetcar... these are all projects that are important but which need public sector investment in order to work.

I just wish this elected officials would tell us the truth and not treat us like we are uniformed children. I have no problem paying a little extra for this project because I think it is worth it, just tell me the truth that I am paying more taxes for it.

C'mon... don't play stupid. Any dollar that the city has to spend, is coming from tax dollars. No one is saying there wouldn't be a subsidy and you can argue that the tax rate could be lower without having to pay those operating costs.

The same goes for every road, alley, sidewalk, street tree, and on and on that the city pays for. These are almost always a money loosing proposition that is done by the city for a social or economic goal in mind.

The idea is that the city will capture millions of dollars in taxes, fees, and improved quality of life to make up this cost. Retaining more people in the city and in the metro... spurring extra business development by lowering parking demand... increasing foot traffic to drive retail growth.

Obviously, it's not 100% that this provide enough benefits to cover the costs, it's just overwhelmingly likely.

C'mon... don't play stupid. Any dollar that the city has to spend, is coming from tax dollars. No one is saying there wouldn't be a subsidy and you can argue that the tax rate could be lower without having to pay those operating costs.

The same goes for every road, alley, sidewalk, street tree, and on and on that the city pays for. These are almost always a money loosing proposition that is done by the city for a social or economic goal in mind.

The idea is that the city will capture millions of dollars in taxes, fees, and improved quality of life to make up this cost. Retaining more people in the city and in the metro... spurring extra business development by lowering parking demand... increasing foot traffic to drive retail growth.

Obviously, it's not 100% that this provide enough benefits to cover the costs, it's just overwhelmingly likely.

I'm not playing stupid, didn't Twoaday just a couple of posts before me say that "Oh and the 2.65 million a year to run, is not from tax dollars?" I am sure that he heard this at some point during the discussions yesterday about funding, so it cam straight from elected officials mouths.

I think you are missing my point, I never said other items in the city do not receive a subsidy. I even said I would be willing to pay extra tax dollars to fund this project, you can double check what I said if you don't believe me. My point was I wish that the people planning this project would tell the honest truth and not play with words to try to make things sound better. All this does is turn more people against this project when they put two and two together and then say, hey they are trying to hide some of the costs for this. What else could they not be telling us.

Finally, the Milwaukee streetcar is moving forward! Doesn't matter about all the obstructions (AT&T, We energies) in the way of the project. The Streetcar is long over due and will help the city of Milwaukee.

As most of us know, the streetcar will really start to shine once it is extended to UWM/Marquette/ Bradley Center district/ and Miller park (listed in level of importance). side quip: One of the coolest things about going to Yankee stadium is catching a train there and being with all the fans chanting on. I know the brewers have their tailgating tradition, but as they say, Variety is the spice of life!
All projects have to start somewhere, and its awesome this is finally happening.

Talk radio guys have to understand they loss this one. They live in Waukesha, this project doesn't affect Waukesha, so why do they care so much? Its not like they ever talk about spending money irresponsible when a new road project is proposed. Only when things benefit Milwaukee do they complain. Well too bad. One wonders how much more public projects would have already been completed in Milwaukee if Waukesha county wasn't our neighbor to the west.

Either way, awesome news and with more construction projects starting up soon, Milwaukee looks to be picking up steam!

I thought this nation was broke? There are probably 100 of these types of projects out there across the nation that collectively are part of the reason why we have such a huge national budget deficit.

You're really going to simplify it that much? How about the 1,000's of highway projects? How about the dire need to fix the corporate tax structure so there aren't a million loopholes for corporations the size of GE get off without paying a dime in taxes. How about the billions in subsidies given to companies and industries that sure as hell would be quite profitable without them. How about bull**** trade agreements like NAFTA that allow for billions in potential tax revenue to be shipping to countries like Mexico and China.

Seriously, public transit projects spur growth and development and the tax base, it's ludacris to think they're one of the main causes of the rediculous national debt crisis we're in.

Thanks for the laugh.

And yes I know this blog isn't about politics, I apologize, but come on...

I'm not playing stupid, didn't Twoaday just a couple of posts before me say that "Oh and the 2.65 million a year to run, is not from tax dollars?" I am sure that he heard this at some point during the discussions yesterday about funding, so it cam straight from elected officials mouths.

I think you are missing my point, I never said other items in the city do not receive a subsidy. I even said I would be willing to pay extra tax dollars to fund this project, you can double check what I said if you don't believe me. My point was I wish that the people planning this project would tell the honest truth and not play with words to try to make things sound better. All this does is turn more people against this project when they put two and two together and then say, hey they are trying to hide some of the costs for this. What else could they not be telling us.

It really is a matter of semantics. Yes, it is taxpayer money, but no it's not property tax dollars, but yes it does impact property tax dollars. I really doubt that twoaday was ignorant of this and was making the distinction for those that it matters that there is a distinction.

Honestly though, I'm with you... money is money.

As for how projects are sold to the masses and being honest about the costs... well, for some people it is a meaningful difference between direct property tax support and funding through other means... even if the net gain/loss is the same. I don't think you can call them disingenuous when they're saying exactly where the money is coming from. If someone is claiming ignorance that parking monies=taxpayer dollars, then maybe they should stay away from politics.

ps, i love the discussion had by all... let's try extra hard to keep this civil... i know i've been guilty of turning things political too...

Maybe I'm missing something but wouldn't an easy fix to the entire AT&T issue be to just move the route over to Milwaukee St.? There's really a lot more businesses that will be served by the line there anyway, regardless of if it's on Broadway or Milwaukee.

Thoughts?

I feel that it would be useful if one of the extensions ran deeper into the 3rd ward, up to Chicago St for instance since this part of the city continues to develop.

To all the people on this site that are obviously against the streetcar I have a proposal for you. Wait until the streetcar is built, which it apparently will be, and after a year or two of operation then formulate an opinion about it.

I distinctly remember all the people that were totally against Miller Park because it was going to be such a waste of taxpayer money. Where are all those people now? I bet you that alot of the people now using Miller Park multiple times a year were the same ones who said the place should never be built.

My point being, I don't always agree with all the costs of this project or how it is being handled but I do believe it could be a positive development for this area. I have lived in Chicago for a while and seen the benefits of being able to either not have a car or drive somewhere, park your car and not move it the rest of the day. I know this starter system seems like a waste to some people just because it is so small, but everything has to start somewhere. Hopefully at some point if enough of the population determines that rail transit is worth the money the system will be expanded so it will become more convenient for more people to use.

I know waiting to form an opinion on something is kind of counter intuitive to the way our society works nowdays, but maybe people should try giving this idea a few years before condemning it as a boondoogle.

the great thing about this project is that the suburbanites can't do a damn thing to stop it from moving forward... and once it opens and they see how beneficial it is to the city, it will finally open up their locked shut minds about rail and other projects like the KRM and HSR and LRT may eventually move forward as well.

Talk radio guys have to understand they loss this one. They live in Waukesha, this project doesn't affect Waukesha, so why do they care so much? Its not like they ever talk about spending money irresponsible when a new road project is proposed. Only when things benefit Milwaukee do they complain. Well too bad. One wonders how much more public projects would have already been completed in Milwaukee if Waukesha county wasn't our neighbor to the west.
Mark Belling lives in downtown Milwaukee.

Mike

Man, after reading the last 3 pages of discussion it blows my mind. Everything from long unused federal funding dollars covering most of the building costs to parking "issues" to operating costs are all contained in a very nice PDF document on the streetcar website. Amazing what you can find out if you take a few minutes to read an insanely detailed document. But, I guess that's not the way we operate anymore.

Mark Belling lives in downtown Milwaukee.

Mike

lol, yep, that's while it will be so enjoyable to know how angry that idiot will be while the streetcar is being built in his backyard... and even more enjoyable once he has to eat his words when the streetcar demonstrates how useful it is and when he decides to use it himself.

@MilwaukeeMax And if Belling were to choose to do so he could take the streetcar from his home right over to Victims.:)

I agree with Twoaday... these numbers seem WAAAY off. Manholes are incredibly easy to close and relocate, actually, so that would not account for any major expense. I'm suspicious, too, that there could be some back room politicking going on here by the anti-rail Belling/Sykes-headed tea people.

In other words, you boys have no idea what you're talking about. This whole unfortunate thing will become a major embarrassment for the city of Milwaukee, and will end Tom Barrett's sorry run as mayor. The final infrastructure tally will be far more than the cost for the trolley -- a great investment considering Milwaukee has no other, more pressing issues.

And, why should non-Milwaukeeans have to help fund this again? This "development" is in Milwaukee and the costs should stay in Milwaukee. This is nothing more than a "cool urban" project that is somehow supposed to make Milwaukee appear cosmopolitan all of a sudden. Pitififul, Barrett. Or, should we yell SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!?

To all the people on this site that are obviously against the streetcar I have a proposal for you. Wait until the streetcar is built, which it apparently will be, and after a year or two of operation then formulate an opinion about it.

I distinctly remember all the people that were totally against Miller Park because it was going to be such a waste of taxpayer money. Where are all those people now? I bet you that alot of the people now using Miller Park multiple times a year were the same ones who said the place should never be built.

My point being, I don't always agree with all the costs of this project or how it is being handled but I do believe it could be a positive development for this area. I have lived in Chicago for a while and seen the benefits of being able to either not have a car or drive somewhere, park your car and not move it the rest of the day. I know this starter system seems like a waste to some people just because it is so small, but everything has to start somewhere. Hopefully at some point if enough of the population determines that rail transit is worth the money the system will be expanded so it will become more convenient for more people to use.

I know waiting to form an opinion on something is kind of counter intuitive to the way our society works nowdays, but maybe people should try giving this idea a few years before condemning it as a boondoogle.

Um, you're not a business person, are you? How about running a bus on this route for two years to see what kind of ridership numbers result, then determine your plan of action. This is like a carpenter measuring once, cutting twice -- excpet you're dealing with hundreds of millions of dollars!

the great thing about this project is that the suburbanites can't do a damn thing to stop it from moving forward... and once it opens and they see how beneficial it is to the city, it will finally open up their locked shut minds about rail and other projects like the KRM and HSR and LRT may eventually move forward as well.

MM, please tell us how this will be beneficial to the city based on the cost. And, don't use the ridiculous talking points from the trolley's website. As a suburbanite, I care about Milwaukee because its success has a lot to do with the success of the region. However, as a suburbanite, I should not have to pay for unplanned infrastructure expenses through WE Energies, AT&T, etc.
This is your train -- you pay for it. Or, maybe there's more money left in somebody's stash...

MM, please tell us how this will be beneficial to the city based on the cost. And, don't use the ridiculous talking points from the trolley's website. As a suburbanite, I care about Milwaukee because its success has a lot to do with the success of the region. However, as a suburbanite, I should not have to pay for unplanned infrastructure expenses through WE Energies, AT&T, etc.
This is your train -- you pay for it. Or, maybe there's more money left in somebody's stash...

How about this, the city of Milwaukee will send you the reimbursement for relocating the utilities for the streetcar, when you send us the reimbursement for relocating utilities for all the highway projects.

As a suburbanite, I care about Milwaukee because its success has a lot to do with the success of the region.

Then you should be in favor of this. It will enhance quality of life in the city and help foster an atmosphere that will attract professional types with good paying jobs, strengthening the the city, and by extension, the rest of the metro. You really don't have to pay for it, since you won't use it and don't live in Milwaukee, and your community could see a benefit from a stronger central city. So, really, its a win for you too. Cheers.

I consider this an expensive carnival ride in the downtown district. Only this ride costs in excess of 100 million dollars. It will not attract high paying jobs because its a bus on tracks. High wage earners don't relocate to a city for a bus on tracks. There is no city in this nation that has made this type of transit a success. All have been over budget and ridership totals are far below forecast numbers. The city will pay a big cost with little gain. If a bus does not work on this route, why would a street car attract riders? Because its cute?

@Boatnurd "All have been over budget and ridership totals are far below forecast numbers."

Umm The Portland streetcar far exceeds its projected ridership numbers. The Seattle streetcar has exceeded its projected ridership in each year it has been open. The Charlotte Blue Line (full LRT) has exceeded ridership projections.. just to name a couple. And there is nothing bus like about a modern streetcar.

I consider this an expensive carnival ride in the downtown district. Only this ride costs in excess of 100 million dollars. It will not attract high paying jobs because its a bus on tracks. High wage earners don't relocate to a city for a bus on tracks. There is no city in this nation that has made this type of transit a success. All have been over budget and ridership totals are far below forecast numbers. The city will pay a big cost with little gain. If a bus does not work on this route, why would a street car attract riders? Because its cute?

Oh, like the Hiawatha LRT here up here in Minneapolis, which less than two years after opening, had already exceeded its 2020 weekday ridership projections. Or if you only mean streetcars and not LRT, then the Portland and Seattle streetcars, which have far exceeded their own ridership projections.

MM, please tell us how this will be beneficial to the city based on the cost. And, don't use the ridiculous talking points from the trolley's website. As a suburbanite, I care about Milwaukee because its success has a lot to do with the success of the region. However, as a suburbanite, I should not have to pay for unplanned infrastructure expenses through WE Energies, AT&T, etc.
This is your train -- you pay for it. Or, maybe there's more money left in somebody's stash...
It is my belief that whoever causes the utility company to have to move their facilities bears the full cost of that work.

Mike

In other words, you boys have no idea what you're talking about. This whole unfortunate thing will become a major embarrassment for the city of Milwaukee, and will end Tom Barrett's sorry run as mayor. The final infrastructure tally will be far more than the cost for the trolley -- a great investment considering Milwaukee has no other, more pressing issues.

And, why should non-Milwaukeeans have to help fund this again? This "development" is in Milwaukee and the costs should stay in Milwaukee. This is nothing more than a "cool urban" project that is somehow supposed to make Milwaukee appear cosmopolitan all of a sudden. Pitififul, Barrett. Or, should we yell SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!?


In the words of Noah Wyle's character, Prof. Kenneth Monnitoff from the 2001 feature film Donnie Darko,
"Get out".

@mgk920 As part of the Marquette Interchange Project the utilities had to pay 90% of the relocation costs of utilities: http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2003/03/03/story1.html

It is my belief that whoever causes the utility company to have to move their facilities bears the full cost of that work.

Mike

This is the problem with america today, too many people have beliefs and too few have facts.

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2003/03/03/story1.html

90% of utility relocation costs paid for by utilities.


haha, I just saw you beat me to it twoaday... I got that from your posting the other day...

There is no city in this nation that has made this type of transit a success. All have been over budget and ridership totals are far below forecast numbers.

What planet are you on that you could possibly believe this?

Boatnurd, here is one recent blog talking about the Seattle streetcar's ridership...far surpassing their forecasts and growing every month. I could find 50 more articles like this after spending 10 minutes on Google, why do you make this stuff up?

http://seattletransitblog.com/2011/07/12/slu-streetcar-ridership-growing-fast/

Boatnurd, here is one recent blog talking about the Seattle streetcar's ridership...far surpassing their forecasts and growing every month. I could find 50 more articles like this after spending 10 minutes on Google, why do you make this stuff up?

http://seattletransitblog.com/2011/07/12/slu-streetcar-ridership-growing-fast/

I too can provide articles stating higher than expected ridership but not reaching financial goals in Seattle.

High ridership does not constitute the original financial plan presented to the taxpayers. That is my point. I am not against the streetcar but do watch the budget numbers and want to ensure projects of this scope if not critical do meet expected return on dollar. One can blow the ridership out of the park if the cost is being subsidized greatly at the cost of the taxpayer. There must be a middle ground especially in a time where money is not available for these types of projects.

What planet are you on that you could possibly believe this?

I live on the planet Earth... Milwaukee area. That is in the North American continent.

If this is accepted and made fully known by the Milwaukee taxpayer, than so be it. The problem is many times it does not come out until one is so deep in the building and spending process there is no going back. Then the answer is we did not spend enough and we need more. This is all very good discussion and something that is needed to make sound $100 million dollar plus decisions.

(Seattle) South Lake Union Trolley is a Spendy Ride for Taxpayers
by Michael van Baker on March 8, 2011

“King County Metro’s 2010 budget for running the streetcars was nearly $2.5 million,” says the Puget Sound Business Journal, noting that last year the streetcars brought in just $760,000 in revenue. That means cash-strapped King County Metro, which runs the South Lake Union streetcars, spent $1.7 million on the operation of a 2.6-mile line.

Though the Seattle Streetcar is part of the Seattle Department of Transportation, Metro pays 75 percent of its operating costs, with the city chipping in the remaining 25 percent. The city’s 2011 adopted budget (pdf) assumed average daily ridership of 3,800 in 2011, and for the farebox eventually to return 55 percent of operating costs.

That will represent a substantial jump. Last year ridership (which had increased 15 percent from 2009) reached 1,800 per day on average, so the projection is a 200 percent increase. Of last year’s revenue, only $560,000 came from fares, and of that that, only $149,000 came as cash from the farebox. ($200,000 came from sponsorship, down from $386,000 in 2009, and very far from the $450,000 projected for 2011.)

The remaining $411,000 in fare revenue is an “estimate,” says the PSBJ, based on the use of transportation passes, yet if you use an ORCA card, there’s no reader to tap yet. I am not sure how Metro is really receiving revenue if there’s no way to pay via ORCA, so I don’t trust that “revenue” means what they think it means in this context. It may be that the taxpayer is footing over 80 percent of the line’s operating costs, and I am waiting for Metro to call me back to explain (SDOT thought Metro would be better equipped to walk me through the details).

ALL TRANSPORTATION MODES LOSE MONEY!! roads, airports, busses, rail.. it doesn't matter... transportation infrastructure is a service and is not supposed to be turning a profit.. highways and streets are subsidized, airports are subsidized, and yet why do you some people seem to always hold rail to a different standard like it should magically be making money??

ALL TRANSPORTATION MODES LOSE MONEY!! roads, airports, busses, rail.. it doesn't matter... transportation infrastructure is a service and is not supposed to be turning a profit.. highways and streets are subsidized, airports are subsidized, and yet why do you some people seem to always hold rail to a different standard like it should magically be making money??

I think why people have such a problem with rail projects, and I am not saying I agree with this, is because they perceive them as serving such a limited percentage of the population. They equate roads for instance with something that they would use and as a result far more other people would use as well.

This whole pro vs. anti rail argument to me ultimately comes down to the fact that if something does not benefit someone directly than they feel it is useless and should not be built. Yes, I know the anti-streetcar people are going to attack me and say I am wrong and the major problem here is the money involved and that is partially true. However I don't see many residents of Waukesha County where I live attacking the fact that the county and the state are going to spend millions of dollars expanding the bypass around the City of Waukesha or millions widening and repairing HWY 83. To me this comes down to the fact that these expensive transit projects benefit them directly and therefore they have no problem paying for them no matter what the price tag might be.

ALL TRANSPORTATION MODES LOSE MONEY!! roads, airports, busses, rail.. it doesn't matter... transportation infrastructure is a service and is not supposed to be turning a profit.. highways and streets are subsidized, airports are subsidized, and yet why do you some people seem to always hold rail to a different standard like it should magically be making money??

They hold rail to a higher standard because they're being led around by the nose by interest groups who want to preserve the automobile and highway as the only viable methods of transportation for as many Americans they possibly can. It's just a continuation of the National City Lines scandal in which GM, Firestone, and other transportation companies conspired to purchase and subsequently demolish nearly every streetcar system in the US.

The other reason they hold rail to a higher standard is a fundamental lack of economic know-how. Rail transit, just like highways and airports, generates Positive Externalities. The value of housing and office development rail can spur, the cleaner air it produces, and the lessening of our dependence on petroleum that it allows are not fully accounted in the farebox recovery ratio, but are of great benefit nonetheless. Any good which produces a positive externality must be subsidized in order to increase the quantity consumed. This includes rail transit, as well as the highway and airport expansion with which conservatives take no issue.

Oh, and it also serves "the other". Conservatives' aversion to funding urban transport is as much about racism as it is the specious "cost-benefit analyses" they always trot out to fight transit projects.

Streetcar utility costs likely to come down
By Larry Sandler of the Journal Sentinel

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/125673888.html

Initial estimates of tens of millions of dollars to move utility lines for a proposed Milwaukee streetcar line are likely to be reduced substantially, a utility spokesman and the city engineer agree...

@usbmfa "So does this streetcar run in the curb lane and take out all street parking on its route. I can't find a straight answer to this one. If it does, do all these east siders know how much parking they are going to lose for a streecar that will never replace their car."

No. It is a streetcar it runs in the street. 99% of on-street parking will be maintained along the route.

"So after this is built, does this mean every new dollar development within a mile of this thing is directly credited to the building of the streetcar. " No, but you can actually look into the Portland numbers as they do comparisons of before and after the line and the change is quite remarkable Very significant changes in density, and number of units.

Oh and the 2.65 million a year to run, is not from tax dollars. Municipal parking garages, parking meters, parking tickets, advertising, and farebox.


The point regarding counting investment dollars is that the so called success of all these systems is always measured in how much money is invested near the route after the system is built. We never hear how much investment would occurred naturally. So it is completely ridiculous to count every investment dollar in the area after the system is built as a direct effect of building the system. When we talk about Milwaukee, the system planners flatly admitted that the system is hitting the densest areas of the city. Does this mean that those areas have fully matured and the only thing that can bring in further developlment is a streetcar. You see how absurb this argument is, but it is the primary selling point used in every one of these projects.

As for Portland, I have not been there, but I breifly looked at the map. What i noticed was the streetcar seemed to compliment a light rail system. Thus if suburban slobs took the light rail in to the city, they would still need to get around the city on th streetcar. Portland is also as liberal as it gets, and those people ride trains because they think they are saving the planet. My point is the culture in Portland would eagerly embrace a rail system, but Milwaukee is a Harley, car, and blue collar culture. Trains will have a much more difficult time getting acceptance here.

I asked the question many pages ago, when this seemed sure to happen, but I will ask it again: streetcar backers what is your long term plan?? Who will fund future growth of the system, who will fund operating costs, how big of a system do you want? I felt like the best chance of success for Milwaukee streetcar would be a downtown loop, that maybe in the future supplements a wider rail system. What will not work in Milwaukee is the system I see on the streetcar website, which envisions streetcars stretching in to all the city's neighborhoods. Economics will not allow it. At $20 million a mile, its not realistic. I don't even see any realistic way for the small future extension to get funded in the next 10 years. Thus we are left with a puny system that only serves the yuppy east siders. Without a real plan and funding source this thing is a white elephant. Sorry, it just is.

:bash:

lol.. I love how American conservatives believe that anything other than rail transit development is "natural". If I had one wish to be granted, it would be that Republicans be required to go back and take a 20th Century American History course so that they finally wake up and realize that there is no such thing as the "invisible hand" or "free market forces". To suggest that outside the streetcar project, all other economic factors are "natural growth rates" is laughable.
What about all the TIF funds for building developments, usbmfa? What about the federal, state and city development grants? What about the tax-funded streets and sidewalk projects? What about the public utilities and other infrastructure, usbmfa? Are those all "natural" free market-driven causes for economic development?

I used to be a naive libertarian way back when too, before I realised that you can't possibly expect a society to be free of public influence altogether and therefore it is unfair to withhold funding to some positive projects in the name of zero government influence when, in fact, other projects have been and will continue to be publicly funded. Libertarianism, like Communism, sounds good on paper but is not grounded in reality. There will always be publicly funded projects and that's fine, as long as those projects are studied and considered viable public investments. I wonder what libertarians would say about the Internet: a huge technological development that only came about because of a major government investment. Would they say it was an an evil "unnatural" force because the "market" didn't produce it? The so-called free-market is only capable of so much. It can't produce big projects that are a valuable public asset because it requires a collective movement at the public level. Roads, utilities, the Milwaukee Streetcar... these are all projects that are important but which need public sector investment in order to work.

Since we are wishing classes for people to take I will recommend economics and finance classes for all liberals taught by professors will real world experience. For example, Obama's entire economic team has left him, and is free to teach current liberals how miserably their policies work. I also would wish for a liberals to have a couple less classes tought by leftist profs who live in a world of tenure and theory.

Did you have your great liberal conversion during the hope or change part of the speech?

Your obsession with rail really is unhealthy. People pay taxes for the goverment to provide certain services and build certain things. The people of Milwaukee are not screaming for a streetcar, they want jobs, safety, etc. An ill thought out streetcar takes away from resources to provide what is really needed.

By the way, when does the recall Able campaign start.

Milwaukee County Executive Chris Abele said Friday the county faces a 2012 shortfall of about $55 million, and he renewed blunt warnings about the inevitability of service cuts.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/125634558.html

@usbmfa I'll answer this again. "So after this is built, does this mean every new dollar development within a mile of this thing is directly credited to the building of the streetcar. "

No. But you can look at the Portland and see, in the numbers - density, units, value, the difference between on the line and off. And before and after...


"Does this mean that those areas have fully matured and the only thing that can bring in further developlment is a streetcar. You see how absurb this argument is, but it is the primary selling point used in every one of these projects. "

I take it you are not familiar with the area? Nothing absurd at all. Yes the line hits the densist jobs/residential areas in Wisconsin. But there are also many spots along the line for development, and if the pattern follows they will be even more dense (which is a very good thing). Not sure why that is absurd.

"The people of Milwaukee are not screaming for a streetcar," Interesting I've sat through a lot of public meetings. Generally tons of people show up to oppose project X or Y. At this meeting a long line of people showed up to support the project (had to open up 301-A for overflow), while two people showed up in opposition. In support included residents, bar & restaurant owners, various business organizations, property owners, small biz owners, and almost ever major real estate developer in Milwauke (yup that's a good thing).

As far as extensions and funding, Milwaukee now has a very good shot at getting TIGER 3 funding this year. First 'extension' in my mind is Brady St.

circle-j**kers

You talk about living in parents basements, but most of us left argumentative tactics such as name calling and talking down to others on the grade school playground, which it seems you're not mature enough to do.

Also, your idea that Milwaukee should not try to adopt a more "cosmopolitan" (as you put it) image to try to attract more urban professionals leaves me baffled as to why you spend any time on these forums at all.

MN_Badger, thanks for the astute post.

too much blabbering.

Wow has this thread turned into a political battleground or what!?

Seriously Usbmfa, what is the point of sharing your views on us liberals and Obama when it doesn't even pertain to the discussion at hand? We are talking about Milwaukee development and how a proposed streetcar system may benefit the city. At least when I was talking about how talk radio hates (and its hordes of conservative listeners) the streetcar proposal it still pertained to Milwaukee development.

Who cares about recalling Abele? Who is even talking about this? Where does this attack rhetoric even come from? What does Abele having a 55 million dollar shortfall and having to make some tough decisions have to do about Milwaukee development?

Like has been said before, some people are upset at the streetcar line because it impacts Milwaukee for the better and not them (at the moment). Some people are going to hate on something because they can and it betters the lives of their perceived opponents.

You know what would really be awesome? If Milwaukee somehow acquired the funds to build a light rail system that covered all possible places in the city and county. I'd be awesome because then many people could finally have true alternatives to getting around the city and county. The only draw back would be the sheer amount of attack rhetoric leveled against this lrt system. If a Milwaukee streetcar line can cause so much mindless uninformed attack rhetoric, just imagine what a proposed Lrt system would cause!!! :bonus points if you the line have future extensions into racine, kenosha, and dun dun dunnn Waukesha:lol:

@usbmfa "So does this streetcar run in the curb lane and take out all street parking on its route. I can't find a straight answer to this one. If it does, do all these east siders know how much parking they are going to lose for a streecar that will never replace their car."

No. It is a streetcar it runs in the street. 99% of on-street parking will be maintained along the route.


Am I correct in assuming these images (from http://www.themilwaukeestreetcar.com) show the likely configuration of the proposed streetcar system vis-a-vis the parking? Based on the engineering drawing, I'm estimating that each stop would occupy a size equivalent to 3 street parking spots.

However, I think it would be an oversimplification to assume that every stop would represent a net loss of 3 existing parking spots because some streetcar stops could very well be located where street parking does not currently occur, like a bus stop, a taxi/loading zone, a fire hydrant (there is one depicted in the image below).


http://www.themilwaukeestreetcar.com/images/Conceptual-Station-Area_lg.jpg


In this image, I see street parking being conserved on the right side. On the left side I see a streetcar positioned at a stop, just like the streetcar in the above plan view drawing .

http://www.themilwaukeestreetcar.com/images/mwsc_modern-render4.jpg

@embora Yes 99% is a bit of an over simplification. But it is also correct that not all stops will have a station as shown, and that many stops will be as you pointed out i.e upgrades of existing bus stops so there isn't parking there currently anyhow.

Since we are wishing classes for people to take I will recommend economics and finance classes for all liberals taught by professors will real world experience. For example, Obama's entire economic team has left him, and is free to teach current liberals how miserably their policies work. I also would wish for a liberals to have a couple less classes tought by leftist profs who live in a world of tenure and theory.

Classes I've taken from professors who I know are conservative, or that I know for a fact are at least not liberal.

Micro-economics, macro-economics, statistics, intro to finance, financial institutions, intro to accounting, intermediate accounting, cost accounting, tax I and tax II, business law...

You get the point. Yet I still have the same views that I do that the streetcar is absolutely an awesome and necessary thing for Milwaukee.

Huh...odd...

They hold rail to a higher standard because they're being led around by the nose by interest groups who want to preserve the automobile and highway as the only viable methods of transportation for as many Americans they possibly can. It's just a continuation of the National City Lines scandal in which GM, Firestone, and other transportation companies conspired to purchase and subsequently demolish nearly every streetcar system in the US.

Could we please not bring up the popular conspiracy theory about GM, etc. destroying the streetcar and interurban lines everytime we dicuss the pros and cons of rail transit. I have stated before and can prove with numbers from the streetcar companies themselves that the semise of rail transit was in full swing well before GM bought a single streetcar line.

Rail ridership was going down already in the 1920's, World War Two gave it temporary boost due to war rationing. Right after the war ridership was down again and then GM began purchasing steetcar lines. I am pro streetcar in Milwaukee and I cringe everytime I hear someone bring up this totally ridiculous argument.

Here is a pic I snatched from the Minneapolis - St Paul thread. Picture credit goes to: spectre000
This picture provides an insight to how tracks will be constructed. Check out the thread for more pics and updates on the Minn streetcar line.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=588802&page=4

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/261566_10150310378926151_79640426150_9714148_8338451_n.jpg

Boatnurd, thank you for posting that image. It's interesting and I hadn't seen it myself. However, I think it's important to note that Milwaukee wants to build a streetcar system, not a light rail system like the Central Corridor project in Minneapolis (illustrated in the above image). For more instructive images of how Milwaukee's system will look and be built, it might be more useful to look at other streetcar systems, such as Portland's. Although the two terms - light rail and streetcar - are sometimes used interchangeably, it's an important distinction in this case as the way the two systems interact with other vehicular traffic is quite different, as are the construction methods.

Boatnurd, thank you for posting that image. It's interesting and I hadn't seen it myself. However, I think it's important to note that Milwaukee wants to build a streetcar system, not a light rail system like the Central Corridor project in Minneapolis (illustrated in the above image). For more instructive images of how Milwaukee's system will look and be built, it might be more useful to look at other streetcar systems, such as Portland's. Although the two terms - light rail and streetcar - are sometimes used interchangeably, it's an important distinction in this case as the way the two systems interact with other vehicular traffic is quite different, as are the construction methods.

Understood and a good point to draw. I really wanted to show how tracks are being layed whether it is light rail or street car. Both may be similar in construction. It is rare you see this while being built rather than after the fact. I get a kick out of before and afters.

Yeah very enlightening picture, thanks for re-posting!

Donovan calls for referendum on downtown streetcar line
By Larry Sandler of the Journal Sentinel

July 18, 2011 5:04 p.m. | Milwaukee Ald. Bob Donovan called Monday for a referendum on a proposed modern streetcar line downtown.

At a City Hall news conference, Donovan said too many questions had been raised about the $64.6 million project for the Common Council to proceed with a scheduled vote Tuesday to authorize final engineering and construction of the 2.1-mile line. He cited concerns about the cost of moving utility lines and the route's proximity to lakefront attractions, as well as Comptroller W. Martin "Wally" Morics' advice to slow down approval.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/125776138.html

Nobody should be surprised by this twist. Crazy Bob Donovan looking for anything he can do to upset the apple cart. And I think anyone with half a brain can figure out where the 11th hour AT&T letter came from (follow the money).

If this went to referendum, it would surely die. As would the 56 million, back to the Fed to be redistributed to other cities. Never mind the line of major supporters - developers, business, etc that want to see this happen.

Utility issues are worked through EVERY DAY by DPW when it comes to street projects. This one will be no different. Let them work through it and figure out a solution. I give up on Milwaukee transit if this thing comes crashing down over a utility issue. I just hope it doesn't make me ultimately lose patience with the city entirely.

http://www.expressmilwaukee.com/blog-7095-summerfests-attendance-and-revenues-were-up-again-.html

Donovan is a corrupt toolbag with only his own self-interest and no city leadership in mind. His proposal for a referendum is ridiculous and will go nowhere.

Isn't Donovan's district about as far from this line as one can get while staying in the city (the Granville area on the far northwest side)?

Mike

I really hope the streetcar line gets built, whatever arguments for or against it will really help the city and obviously the plans would only be the beginning.
I hope someday that the streetcar line makes it out to riverwest down holton street. We need something to really reenergize milwaukee and this would do it.

Isn't Donovan's district about as far from this line as one can get while staying in the city (the Granville area on the far northwest side)?

Mike

No, his district is on the south side, including the Jackson Park neighborhood near Greenfield.

@ mgk920:
The far northwest side is Jim Bohl's district. He is probably the most conservative member of the city council.

No, his district is on the south side, including the Jackson Park neighborhood near Greenfield.
Thanx. I was thinking of another alderman from a few years ago, and his name is just escaping me right now.

Grrrrr...

Mike

Legislature's budget committee okays money for upgrades at Milwaukee train station. Most of the money comes from issuing from bonds

The Wisconsin Legislature's budget committee okayed spending $31 million to help renovate the Milwaukee passenger rail station and pay for costs related to the preparation and delivery of new train cars and other expenses related to the Hiawatha line between Milwaukee and Chicago.

The Joint Finance Committee on Tuesday voted 12-2 to approve the spending, most of which comes from the issuing of bonds.

Democrats on the panel excoriated Republican Gov. Scott Walker for rejecting $810 million in federal high speed rail money, which would have covered up to $25 million of the approved spending. Walker rejected the money to pay for a new rail line between Madison and Milwaukee. He supports the existing line connecting Milwaukee and Chicago.

http://www.fox6now.com/news/witi-20110719-train-money-approved,0,884332.story

More awesome news for the intermodal station and Milwaukee. Still, I'm furious that Walkers pandering to the anti-rail crowd cost us 810 million towards upgrading our Milwaukee facilities and developing a new line. His short sightedness had cost Wisconsin taxpayers millions of dollars.

I sucks about the aldermen trying to crash the party in the eleventh hour but i'd like to believe that our mayor has the tools to put him in check. A majority of the aldermen in our city are for the streetcar system and knowing that federal funds can be withdrawn if not used soon should make the detractors budge.

Once the initial system is in place, we'll be able to get more grants to extend the lines to all important destinations in the city!

Mandel also has gotten the loan they need from the city to start phase II of the north end. Does anybody know when the vacant hotel will finish up construction? Its really sad to see the thing unfinished. And does anybody know if there are any plans to destroy the sidney hih building? What about that weird MATC building next to the Bradley center? Both buildings are huge eyesores and one would believe it'd be better if there was nothing there at all.

And oh yeah, i starting to believe that maybe the park east area next to the bradley center could be used for a new arena. Demolish the current BC and extend the downtown MATC campus on it (dorms, dedicated program building, green space, etc). That way the are can have year round activities because of students. It would seem like a win for that general area, just saying!

Democrats on the panel excoriated Republican Gov. Scott Walker for rejecting $810 million in federal high speed rail money, which would have covered up to $25 million of the approved spending. Walker rejected the money to pay for a new rail line between Madison and Milwaukee. He supports the existing line connecting Milwaukee and Chicago.

More awesome news for the intermodal station and Milwaukee. Still, I'm furious that Walkers pandering to the anti-rail crowd cost us 810 million towards upgrading our Milwaukee facilities and developing a new line. His short sightedness had cost Wisconsin taxpayers millions of dollars.

What I am upset about is the fact that Mr. LaHood couldn't act like a bigger person and still grant some of the federal money for Hiawatha upgrades. If he is supposedly for rail transit than why would he not want to see the busiest rail line in the Midwest upgraded? The Hiawatha line's top speed meets the current federal government definition of "high speed rail."

I wish everyone on this thread who is so quick to bash Walker for this would also aknowledge the fact the Mr. LaHood and the federal government is just as responsible for us having to pay for these upgrades out of the state budget.

I wish everyone on this thread who is so quick to bash Walker for this would also aknowledge the fact the Mr. LaHood and the federal government is just as responsible for us having to pay for these upgrades out of the state budget.

C'mon, really? The only reason we got the money in the first place is because Thompson and Doyle had a plan sitting on the shelf, ready to be funded and built.

By the time the next round came, there were many more competitors. Can't you accept we lost fair and square? Yeah, it sucks but Walker already had the money and sent it back.

Trains cost Wisconsin taxpayers millions
By Larry Sandler and Jason Stein of the Journal Sentinel

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/125810723.html

Wisconsin taxpayers could wind up paying more to keep existing passenger train service from Milwaukee to Chicago than they would have paid to run new high-speed rail service from Milwaukee to Madison, according to a Journal Sentinel analysis of state figures...

...Taken together, state taxpayers' share of the Hiawatha capital costs that would have been covered by the federal grant could total as much as $99 million, significantly more than the $30 million they would have paid for 20 years of operating costs on the Milwaukee-to-Madison segment...


Day after day Gov. Walker shows how much of an idiot and a tool he is and was...

C'mon, really? The only reason we got the money in the first place is because Thompson and Doyle had a plan sitting on the shelf, ready to be funded and built.

By the time the next round came, there were many more competitors. Can't you accept we lost fair and square? Yeah, it sucks but Walker already had the money and sent it back.

So just because there were many more competitors the money should be sent to a state for a project based on projections instead of numbers based in reality. Again the Hiawatha line is the most used Amtrak line in the Midwest, period.

I don't know about you, but if I was transportation secretary and I had someone asking me for funds to upgrade a line that has proven it is sucessfull I sure would find a way to give it at least some money.

Why can't people just admit that this is LaHood punishing the state for daring to disagree with his vision? I just don't understand how people can come down on Walker, which may or may not be right, without coming down on this bonehead LaHood who is just as responsible.

Trains cost Wisconsin taxpayers millions
By Larry Sandler and Jason Stein of the Journal Sentinel

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/125810723.html

Wisconsin taxpayers could wind up paying more to keep existing passenger train service from Milwaukee to Chicago than they would have paid to run new high-speed rail service from Milwaukee to Madison, according to a Journal Sentinel analysis of state figures...

...Taken together, state taxpayers' share of the Hiawatha capital costs that would have been covered by the federal grant could total as much as $99 million, significantly more than the $30 million they would have paid for 20 years of operating costs on the Milwaukee-to-Madison segment...


Day after day Gov. Walker shows how much of an idiot and a tool he is and was...

Do you not see what the first line of this articke says, Wisconsin taxpayers could... This is another example of a newspaper working up the population with an article based on conjecture and what ifs. Why does everyone get so upset when someone like Mark Belling comes up with some non-sense like this, but not when the local newspaper does? Is it because this particular article happens to bolster a point of theirs whereas Belling does not?

So just because there were many more competitors the money should be sent to a state for a project based on projections instead of numbers based in reality. Again the Hiawatha line is the most used Amtrak line in the Midwest, period.

I don't know about you, but if I was transportation secretary and I had someone asking me for funds to upgrade a line that has proven it is sucessfull I sure would find a way to give it at least some money.

Why can't people just admit that this is LaHood punishing the state for daring to disagree with his vision? I just don't understand how people can come down on Walker, which may or may not be right, without coming down on this bonehead LaHood who is just as responsible.

We already have rail in place. The goal is to build new networks.

I think you're right though, it's obviously a vast conspiracy to make Scott Walker look like a fool, he hasn't been able to do that all by himself, right?

Do you not see what the first line of this articke says, Wisconsin taxpayers could... This is another example of a newspaper working up the population with an article based on conjecture and what ifs. Why does everyone get so upset when someone like Mark Belling comes up with some non-sense like this, but not when the local newspaper does? Is it because this particular article happens to bolster a point of theirs whereas Belling does not?

Bottom line the state of WI is paying millions for costs that would have been covered by the grant.

So what facts are you disputing, exactly?

Bottom line the state of WI is paying millions for costs that would have been covered by the grant.

So what facts are you disputing, exactly?

I am stating that the very first line of the newspaper article establishes the fact that these numbers are estimates, hence the work could. I am saying that again in the article the work could is used.

I don't know about you but I was taught that the word could means that something is possible, but not a certainty. Haven't we learned from the streetcar project that unseen complications arise on almost any construction project.

So the fact of the matter is that we are blaming someone for not taking money that may or may not have been enough to cover the upgrades to the Hiawatha line. And yes I know there was a $150 million contingency built into the project, but $150 million does not go very far on massive infrastructure projects.

I am stating that the very first line of the newspaper article establishes the fact that these numbers are estimates, hence the work could. I am saying that again in the article the work could is used.

I don't know about you but I was taught that the word could means that something is possible, but not a certainty. Haven't we learned from the streetcar project that unseen complications arise on almost any construction project.

So the fact of the matter is that we are blaming someone for not taking money that may or may not have been enough to cover the upgrades to the Hiawatha line. And yes I know there was a $150 million contingency built into the project, but $150 million does not go very far on massive infrastructure projects.

You're desperate, Walker owns this. You're really in denial, it's not any more complicated than that.

We already have rail in place. The goal is to build new networks.

I think you're right though, it's obviously a vast conspiracy to make Scott Walker look like a fool, he hasn't been able to do that all by himself, right?

So what your line of reasoning is, is that we should ignore a sucessfull rail segment just because it isn't creating a new network?

So we should ignore any old infrastructure just because it isn't creating a new network of something? That seems kind of counter intuitive to me. If we followed this line of though than everything from roads to airports would be falling apart.

I understand you hate Scott Walker, and that is your right. However in order to be fair and unbiased I think we have to admit that the federal government in general and Mr. LaHood in general are also at fault here. Again they could have been the bigger individuals here. They could have put their agenda aside and granted some money for Hiawatha repair because it is heavily traveled and a worthwhile project. Instead they have come off looking just as petty, punishing Wisconsin and Illinois for someone not mindlessly follwing their agenda.

You're desperate, Walker owns this. You're really in denial, it's not any more complicated than that.

If I am so desperate than please elaborate instead of just saying that I am wrong and this is all Walker's fault. I really do like to hear other people's opinions as long as they are elaborated on.

@splat8 The funds, by policy, were for HSR routes. When we turned down the funds to get to Madison we were no longer on the HSR route, more of a cul-de-sac really. Hence no HSR funds.

Speaking of cul-de-sacs, we've had this discussion ad nauseum before.

Although I have a very strong opinion about who is clearly responsible for the rail situation, in the interest of extracting ourselves from this bottomless pit I will not again express it, and hope that we can move on to something else.

Bottom line for me, I guess, is really just that I think Walker, his administration and his very vocal followers made an erroneous error by declining the funds. Period.

I won't ever forgive them for that.

^^ yeah, it's beyond comprehension to me that there is a faction of people who are still in complete denial about the facts of how everything played out last year. I think someone else mentioned it recently, but Walker was never about finding a compromise with the USDOT on the grant funding for HSR. The proposals submitted to the federal bureau were for HSR startup corridors. Very very specifically for this. I mean you can read the grant proposal request documentation if you don't believe us, splat8. We have been over this ad nauseum several times before, as looksee points out, but very quickly, here are the facts again: Walker wanted the grant money used for highways instead of what it was specifically granted for (new HSR corridors); the grant money was taken back by the feds because Walker was inexorably attached to the notion of using the funds for highways or else giving the money back to the feds. The money was then redistributed to other states. Several months later, Walker's administration came back to the feds, tail between legs, with a very poorly-written grant request on a round of grants that also would not have made Wisconsin eligible based on its limitations.

The fault for the predicament we're in now rests SQUARELY on Scott Walker's shoulders, as well as on those who voted for him and his fellow legislators who have supported him politically. The only logical explanation as to why some seem to be in complete denial about this is perhaps due to some underlying guilt: those who voted for Walker, if they were being honest with themselves and others, would have no choice but to admit that this was a huge fiscal mistake. But admitting that you voted for the wrong person or that you are part of the cause that is costing the state millions of dollars is just something these individuals are not capable of.

If there were any justice in this world, the people who voted for and donated to Scott Walker's campaign should be the ONLY ones in Wisconsin who have to pay for these rail upgrades. Those of us who voted against Walker should be exempt from having to pay taxes for these upgrades, as they would have been covered under the federal grant had Walker not been elected.
I wonder if a lawsuit can be filed against the state to exempt those of us who intended otherwise from footing this bill...

Let's see...

...Walker submits grant application for upgrades to popular rail service. USSecTrans LaHood says *NO!*. Grant denial is all Walker's fault.

Kewl!

:cheers1:

Mike

Speaking of cul-de-sacs, we've had this discussion ad nauseum before.

Although I have a very strong opinion about who is clearly responsible for the rail situation, in the interest of extracting ourselves from this bottomless pit I will not again express it, and hope that we can move on to something else.

^^ I agree! The :bash:ing on and on gets us nowhere.

^^ yeah, it's beyond comprehension to me that there is a faction of people who are still in complete denial about the facts of how everything played out last year. I think someone else mentioned it recently, but Walker was never about finding a compromise with the USDOT on the grant funding for HSR. The proposals submitted to the federal bureau were for HSR startup corridors. Very very specifically for this. I mean you can read the grant proposal request documentation if you don't believe us, splat8. We have been over this ad nauseum several times before, as looksee points out, but very quickly, here are the facts again: Walker wanted the grant money used for highways instead of what it was specifically granted for (new HSR corridors); the grant money was taken back by the feds because Walker was inexorably attached to the notion of using the funds for highways or else giving the money back to the feds. The money was then redistributed to other states. Several months later, Walker's administration came back to the feds, tail between legs, with a very poorly-written grant request on a round of grants that also would not have made Wisconsin eligible based on its limitations.

The fault for the predicament we're in now rests SQUARELY on Scott Walker's shoulders, as well as on those who voted for him and his fellow legislators who have supported him politically. The only logical explanation as to why some seem to be in complete denial about this is perhaps due to some underlying guilt: those who voted for Walker, if they were being honest with themselves and others, would have no choice but to admit that this was a huge fiscal mistake. But admitting that you voted for the wrong person or that you are part of the cause that is costing the state millions of dollars is just something these individuals are not capable of.

If there were any justice in this world, the people who voted for and donated to Scott Walker's campaign should be the ONLY ones in Wisconsin who have to pay for these rail upgrades. Those of us who voted against Walker should be exempt from having to pay taxes for these upgrades, as they would have been covered under the federal grant had Walker not been elected.
I wonder if a lawsuit can be filed against the state to exempt those of us who intended otherwise from footing this bill...

Fine you can pay for the union benefits, and the rest of us will pay for the train upgrade. Sounds like a good deal to me.

One easy way to tell if the milwaukee streetcar is a success. If a viable, successful business moves in the empty store fronts on across from JVT. Right on the route, its a no brainer, right, since we know the streetcar will bring in instant propserity.

Let's see...

...Walker submits grant application for upgrades to popular rail service. USSecTrans LaHood says *NO!*. Grant denial is all Walker's fault.

Kewl!

:cheers1:

Mike


... no... Walker submits poorly-written application for grant money that was specifically intended for high speed rail upgrades, except Walker's request was not for any high speed upgrades, even though the grant outlines specified that was what these funds were for... Walker can't read directions, apparently and his request is denied because it fails to meet these criteria.

Grant denial INDEED is all Walker's fault. Get it yet??

^^
...and this has to do with current building developments in MKE how?

^^
...and this has to do with current building developments in MKE how?

because some of these rail developments are now approved by the state-- except they will now cost WI money that would have been paid for by the feds. that's how this discussion got started.

^^
Whichever way, it still comes out of our pockets....

:nuts:

Mike

^^
Whichever way, it still comes out of our pockets....

:nuts:

Mike

nope. another fallacy. wisconsin PAYS more in federal taxes than it gets back in services from the feds, so..no.. by this not being paid for by federal grants, it comes out of our pockets TWICE now instead of just the once. you're now funding a project in wisconsin AND in california/illinois/new york instead of just one in wisconsin. get it yet?

remember the (deleted) HSR thread...

fair enough... let's stop talking about it. i just want to make sure everyone is clear on the facts here. so now we can move on.

I really don't see how MilwaukeeMax is wrong about anything he wrote. Facts are facts and none of what he wrote is disputable. This discussion about rail transit does have lots to do with Milwaukee development Brewerfan386 because Milwaukee would be the primary beneficiary of any HSR/normal rail development in the state of Wisconsin. The money the legislator just approved for rail upgrades is going to pay for a new train shed at the Milwaukee intermodal station.

Why is Usbmfa again grasping at straws? What does paying union benefits have to do with the topic at hand? It's almost like he looks for anything that can be construed as anti-walker and quickly reverts blame to "liberals" for some weird strawman.

Any who, there are two projects which are nearing completion that will add some nice density to our fair city. Those apartments going up at E pleasent and N commerce seem about done. And the first phase of the apartments going up on 1 and national seem about done too. I would like to see the Moderne rise faster but I guess patience is a virtue for a reason.

I loved this sign. And it is actually above a big hole in the ground where this new building is starting to go up!
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6142/5958886570_fccbf1d705.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davereid/5958886570/)
Investing Locally 1 Corner at a Time. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davereid/5958886570/) by davereid2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/davereid/), on Flickr