Tom Daykin with a video about how the metro Milwaukee apartment market is the strongest in the Midwest.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/134901563.html

Wow i missed posting something for riverwest.
There are 53 comments under the article.

634 e keefe. Very industrial area right by holton.
its too bad that keefe doesnt cross the river too.

This would stimulate the local area though, one would think right?
There may not be much for them to hang out at
but there would be demand for such a thing when they are there.

THis part of riverwest needs something
this would help alot.

The apartment market has been very, very strong over the past couple of years, ever since the decades-in-the-making souffle in the owner-occupied housing market started coming back down to earth. It will be many years before everything there finds its proper level and even then, renting will continue to be much more the norm. The biggest question in my mind on the whole issue relates to how many munis, especially the more 'hoity-toity' suburban ones, react to this 'new normal'.

Just like in Milwaukee, I am seeing much more rental apartment complex than detached owner-occupied SF new construction here in the Appleton area.

Mike

Article from Multi-Housing News Online gives a great example of the overall metro area for rental properties. Definitely supports the need for more apartments.

http://www.multihousingnews.com/news/midwest/market-snapshot-milwaukee-reports-a-low-average-vacancy-for-midwestern-market/1004045693.html

Did anyone see the scaled-down design for the Milwaukee Intermodal Station's train shed? Since Walker threw away the federal grant money last year, the state has to pick up the full tab for the required upgrades, including the new train shed downtown. What would have been paid for through federal grant money is now only coming from Wisconsin taxpayers and so, to desperately cut costs, the $25 million price tag for the original train shed design was chopped down to $19 million by altering the roof from a nice arched one to a boring flat one:

Here's the original design that we were going to build:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a81/Maximilian77/trainshedreduxoriginal.jpg

and here's the cost-cutting design with the flat roof:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a81/Maximilian77/trainshedreduxcheap.jpg

I think the flat roof really wrecks what was quite a nice design. I'm sure the architects were disappointed with having to change it too, but I guess anything is better than the current train shed:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a81/Maximilian77/trainshedold.jpg

I agree Max, its a tragedy.

Both of the renderings have so much light filling the space that is quite dark looking today. How do they plan on making the depot appear to be so much brighter after the construction?

I agree Max, its a tragedy.

Both of the renderings have so much light filling the space that is quite dark looking today. How do they plan on making the depot appear to be so much brighter after the construction?

I also agree that it's a sad thing what's happened. They're making do the best they can though and I applaud the effort.

With regard to the brightness, white walls and a large increase in windows will bring in the light.

I also agree that it's a sad thing what's happened. They're making do the best they can though and I applaud the effort.

With regard to the brightness, white walls and a large increase in windows will bring in the light.

It's a shame to lose such a nice roof design --- I wish they could send the redesign back to the drawing board like they did with the passenger terminal when Alderman Baumann objected to the initial one. Maybe the county or city could help cover the extra costs for the better train shed design... I dunno.

Speaking of train sheds, if there's a city that needs a better looking train shed, it's Chicago. Every time I take the Hiawatha down to Union Station, I think how absolutely ugly their train shed is (I realise they have more than one, but the large one for the Hiawatha and other trains is what I'm referring to).

Agreed Max. What would have been a very elegant welcome to Milwaukee has become pretty, well... ordinary. People complain about spending money, but image and perception matters. This design would have been an important statement about where Milwaukee is and where it's going.

Historically, these train sheds were points of civic pride. Travel to Europe and you'll see amazing steel structures that are light-filled, delicate, and delightful. It forms your first impressions of the cities that you visit as these places serve as the front door.

I'll certainly take the redesign over the current conditions. It will undoubtably be a marked improvement. But it's yet another missed opportunity for Milwaukee and Wisconsin.

It's a shame to lose such a nice roof design --- I wish they could send the redesign back to the drawing board like they did with the passenger terminal when Alderman Baumann objected to the initial one. Maybe the county or city could help cover the extra costs for the better train shed design... I dunno.

Speaking of train sheds, if there's a city that needs a better looking train shed, it's Chicago. Every time I take the Hiawatha down to Union Station, I think how absolutely ugly their train shed is (I realise they have more than one, but the large one for the Hiawatha and other trains is what I'm referring to).

I travel by rail quite a bit in this country and can't say there is a single train station I've been to that has an impressive shed. Honestly, Milwaukee's platforms are on par with Grand Central's. I can't think of a single American train station still in operation with its original shed.

the first rendering is obviously better but I think if the amtrak actually goes through with the second it'll be a huge success for Milwaukee. It fits the Amtrak's aesthetic perfectly and is so fresh

Speaking of train sheds, if there's a city that needs a better looking train shed, it's Chicago. Every time I take the Hiawatha down to Union Station, I think how absolutely ugly their train shed is (I realise they have more than one, but the large one for the Hiawatha and other trains is what I'm referring to).

union station's train sheds, like their counterparts at grand central station in NYC, are subterranean because they sit below skyscrapers. rather than "waste" the land area that massive train sheds take-up in crowded, dense urban downtowns, it was decided to build on top of the sheds and "make the land pay".

at this point there isn't a whole hell of a lot that can be done to open up and brighten union station's platforms short of demolishing all of the buildings that now sit atop of them (not terribly likely).

I'm assuming most have read that the city is putting together an incentives package for Kohl's, using Park East land. Apparently this is at the request of Kohl's itself, and that Kohl's has until sometime in late December to respond. We'll see if anything comes of this, but it certainly could be a big win for Milwaukee.

Sources: http://www.fox6now.com/news/witi-20111215-kohls-park-east-corridor,0,417624.story
http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/print-edition/2011/12/16/milwaukee-still-pitching-for-kohls-hq.html

In transportation related news, the state has apparently decided against a bike lane on the Hoan (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2011/12/16/dot-drops-proposal-for-hoan-bridge.html) and the streetcar did not win its third attempt at federal funding for the extensions to Brady street and the Brewery/Park East (http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/grant-bid-to-extend-streetcar-route-denied-u33f8o1-135702363.html). Bad news, in my opinion. At least the state is discussing moving some of the Lake Interchange ramps.

Here's hoping Kohl's moves at least some of its functions downtown!:cheers:

It is nice to hear that Kohls is being open minded and exploring their options.

It's good to hear that Kohl's is thinking about moving its HQ to downtown Milwaukee. A huge part of me believes this will never happen based on two issues. 1) Parking and Commute; Any Kohls HQ would need to have plenty of parking stalls for all its commuters. The commuters themselves won't like the traffic they have to deal with when getting to downtown Milwaukee during the early morning and rushhour. 2)There is a well known dislike of anything Milwaukee from many of the neighboring towns and countys in SE wisconsin. Many Kohls workers will be opposed to it relocating to downtown Milwaukee for various reasons (some more obvious then others).

I on the other hand am torn. While it would indeed be great if Kohls relocated to downtown and add to the local economy, i don't know if i would like all the negatives that would come with them moving here. One of the things I dislike about downtown Milwaukee the most is the amount of parking structures and surface lots it has. I mean, there is way too much parking available here and it just uglies up the city. Some buildings that I thought were commercial ended up being parking structures. It really boggles the mind. I wouldn't want even more of these ugly barren buildings downtown. And a Kohls HQ would require multiples of those ugly monstrocities.

I think the park east should be reserved for a future stadium, some low key parkland (maybe an actual city square that people can easily get to unlike McArthur Sq) and a bunch of commercial and residential buildings. I know the economy is in the dumps but i believe some things are worth waiting for, and its better to wait than have to go with some uninspired mess (library development on north, i'm looking at you).

In other news, there will be no bike or pedestrian paths on the Hoan Bridge. Shame I say, but in reality i'd much rather they just razed the ugly thing. Let the southern neighborhoods cry about the extra 5 minutes it will take to get to downtown Milwaukee.

jehuty...you bring up some good points. I guess there really is no guarantee they would build a skyscraper anyways. However, if they did, they could include some of the parking on the first few floors of the building...but not 5,500.

Haletothezoo. Thakn you. Also consider that Kohl's asked Milwaukee for the package of incentives if they were to move to downtown Milwaukee. It is very telling that they focused on the Park East area. Kohl's isn't interested in building a tower. And the park East plan doesnt really have room for a tower either (save that one that is supposed to go up on water st by the river). A Kohls HQ would need plenty of parking. I also don't know how happy the commuters will be being so close to Hillside:lol:

The real big shame when it comes to Milwaukee Development projects is how mush easier things would be if the leadership of the city actually fought for the city and not worry about what the suburbs think. Mayor norquist and more recently Barrett really do see the big picture. Take the streetcar system for instance; there are a bunch of critics that say the system would be useless, but what they tend to forget is that mass transit eases up parking needs. More buildings wouldn't need to provide tons of parking if adequete mass transit existed (MCTS is not up to par). plus, the east side all the way up to UWM really does need another way of getting around. Parking fines are terrible around here! But Barrett catches flak because he wants to move Milwaukee forward. I tend to tell my friends in the burbs that criticize Milwaukee "Just don't come downtown for anything then".

I know most of us would want Milwaukee to move at a faster speed, but patience is a virtue for a reason.

Wow, after all of Kohls' talk about not wanting to be in a downtown setting, this is a truly wonderful surprise! Since Kohl's has repeatedly said they do not want to build a tower, the park east is the PERFECT spot of for them to build in this city. With the HUGE county owned lots, it is extremely difficult to find a project viable for the area.

Yes, large projects like the Palomar were proposed, but in today's economy a skyscraper and large project like that are very unlikely. So let them build a midrise complex at the site. Parking is just part of the needs of a large commercial development... it's a necessary evil. The only way to get rid of open lots though is to build on them. The Kohl's HQ would create further demand in the area for residential, commerical, retail, etc.

Not to mention, with Kohl's having such a young and trendy workforce, many many employee's would love to work downtown. Put on top of that all the talent they bring into the city and state, it will be MUCH easier to recruit people from out of the area.

This could be a HUGE win! I hope they give it serious consideration. We need real demand generating projects in the park east... projects that create traffic, residential demand, restaurant and retail, taxes, etc. Even if the city gives incentives that delay the tax benefit, the taxes gained from all the other projects that will be created will be a big win. Lets not consider any non-tax generating proposals like parks or barely used venues like sports arena's if we have a shot for a significant catalyst project like this.

I understand the tone and importance of this story, but the picture it paints of Milwaukee is not pretty:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/12/free-falling-in-milwaukee-a-close-up-on-one-citys-middle-class-decline/250100/

I understand the tone and importance of this story, but the picture it paints of Milwaukee is not pretty:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/12/free-falling-in-milwaukee-a-close-up-on-one-citys-middle-class-decline/250100/

Good article in that its thought provoking and thats about it,
its comments section is whats worth reading mainly.

I agree with the sentiment that this is painting MKE in an over the top
bleak light. Total BS. Our family invested in a twoflat in Riverwest
in 2004 and the neighborhood has improved every single year since. I lived there for awhile and miss living in MKE. I think MKE is doing better and doesnt deserve a crappy article like this and it goes without saying but, how old is that picture of the Schlitz Factory? Probably from 20 years ago.

I see MKE with a bright future, MKE has really changed for the better since I started getting to know it in the mid ninties.
The Moderne is going up and all areas adjacent to Milwaukee's downtown are improving with new buildings going up
so this article just looks at all the negative, screw the Atlantic, usually a good magazine, but they dont know
what they are talking about.

What is sad is that the Schlitz brewhouse is going to be torn down, what do you guys think of that,
I googled the image for that and I guess they are going to teardown that huge Schlitz building......
I guess that would cost too much money to fix, but its still a damn shame.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/135513593.html

Schlitz Park renovations move forward with $5 million project
print By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel
Dec. 13, 2011

Two largely vacant office buildings at downtown Milwaukee's Schlitz Park soon will be renovated, a $5.5 million project to accommodate some new tenants to be announced soon.This is the first step in a larger planned redevelopment of Schlitz Park business park.

Developer Gary Grunau told me Tuesday that the two former Schlitz bottlehouses, at 1610 N. 2nd St. and 101 W. Pleasant St., will be remodeled. That work is to begin immediately.

The two buildings also will be connected at the first floor to create 8,000 square feet of common space, known as The Link. It will include meeting areas for work or breaks, as well as a fitness center.The connected buildings, which total 140,000 square feet, will have 90,000 square feet of available office space.

Grunau said he's working with prospective tenants that will fill a substantial portion of that vacant space. He declined to name them because the leases are not yet final.Current bottlehouse tenants include the Greater Milwaukee Foundation and Educational Credential Evaluators.

The project is being financed with a loan from U.S. Bank, Grunau said. The renovations are to be completed by the end of April. In June, Grunau announced that the former Schlitz brew house would be demolished, and other former brewery buildings converted to offices would be remodeled, under a $30 million renovation plan.

The overall project calls for remodeling 350,000 square feet, and creating more natural lighting, exposed ceilings and open, flexible work space. The main focus of the larger project is on the two bottlehouse buildings and two other buildings that have most of the vacant space at Schlitz Park.

The next phase will be a renovation of the 500,000-square-foot RiverCenter, 1515-1575 N. River Center Drive, with work to begin in 2012, Grunau said. He said private financing for that project is being assembled.
There also will be work on creating more green space and walking trails at the 46-acre office park.

The remodeling is designed to help Schlitz Park retain current tenants, which include Aurora Health Care Inc., Fidelity National Information Services Inc. and U.S. Bank, and attract new businesses from the suburbs.

Schlitz Park will seek to have the renovated bottlehouse buildings certified as environmentally friendly properties by the U.S. Green Building Council.

More than 4,200 employees work in Schlitz Park and the neighboring buildings that are home to Manpower Inc. and Time Warner. Schlitz Park is owned and managed by The Brewery Works Inc., which was formed by the Grunau and Sampson families that bought the former Schlitz brewery complex in 1983.

http://www.biztimes.com/realestateweekly/2011/6/8/schlitz-park-makeover-to-include-demolition-of-121-year-old-brewhouse-building

Schlitz Park makeover to include demolition of 121-year-old Brewhouse building
Published June 8, 2011 - Real Estate Weekly

Schlitz Park co-owner and developer Gary Grunau this week unveiled details of the $30 million renovation plans for the office complex on the north side of downtown Milwaukee.

The project will include remodeling of 350,000 square feet of office and public areas. The space upgrades will create enough additional space to accommodate tenants with 1,800 more employees at Schlitz Park, Grunau said. The Schlitz Park complex, including the ManpowerGroup and Time Warner buildings, currently houses about 4,200 employees. Schlitz Park has a total of 1.2 million square feet of office space, and about 80 percent of that is occupied, Grunau said.

The Schlitz Park renovation plans also include plans to demolish the 121-year-old former Schiltz Brewhouse building. At one time Harley-Davidson planned to put its museum in the building, but those plans fell through. Several other potential tenants considered the building, but it has severe structural problems that prevented any redevelopment projects from coming together, Grunau said.“We have looked at this for 25 years and have spent about $4 million, and it didn’t work,” he said. "That’s it. It’s got to go.”

The Brewhouse building will be replaced with a park, one of two that will be added to the Schlitz Park complex as part of the renovation project. Historic artifacts from the Brewhouse building will be incorporated in the parks. The park at the Brewhouse site will have plants of beer ingredients: hops, barley, wheat and rye.


"We’re going to tell the story of the brewing industry and tell the story of Schlitz brewery,” Grunau said.

The time is right to renovate Schlitz Park because of a growing national trend of younger adults preferring to work in urban locations, which has encouraged more businesses to move to downtown sites, Grunau said.

“Young people don’t want to be out on the fringe,” he said. “People are coming back to the central core. People want urban living. There are some naysayers about Milwaukee and I think they’re full of you know what.”
(naysayers like the ATLANTIC)

Current tenants in Schlitz Park include: U.S. Bank, Metavante, Aurora Health Care, Marshall & Ilsley, Previant & Goldberg, United Way, Children’s Health Educational Center, Shaw, iCare, State of Wisconsin, Greater Milwaukee Foundation, ECE, Gilbane, DPI, Assurant and Kaplan College.

Grunau said Schlitz park is “seeing very good activity,” from prospective tenants right now. The Defense Contract Management Agency, part of the U.S. Defense Department, recently leased 10,000 square feet of space in the Keg House building at Schlitz Park and will move there in a few months, Grunau said. That building is now 100 percent leased, he said.
Schlitz Park has a new slogan, “the best of all worlds,” and will seek to offer a modern office environment in a convenient urban location, Grunau said.

“We’re trying to create an urban office park that is the best of all worlds, that can compete with any location, suburban or urban,” he said.
Other features of the Schlitz Park renovation will include: free campus-wide Wi-Fi, a conference center, a fitness center, expanded bicycle parking, alternative fuel vehicle parking and an electrical vehicle charging station.
Schlitz Park will seek U.S. Green Building Council LEED certification for all of its buildings, Grunau said. A major goal will be to make the office park accessible for people to walk and bike to work, he said.

“We’re going to have a bicycle-friendly Schlitz Park,” Grunau said.
Schlitz Park also plans to extend Galena Street through the property to 2nd Street. A request might be made to the city for public funds for that part of the project, Grunau said.The renovation project is expected to begin this year and will be complete in 2013. The architect for the project is Milwaukee-based Eppstein Uhen Architects.

A Schlitz Park brokers open house will be held today from 4-7 p.m. at the office park’s new leasing center at 1555 N. RiverCenter Dr. Jim Cavanaugh of RFP Commercial Inc. is handling leasing for Schlitz Park.

Regarding the idea of Kohls moving to Park East, I think that the neighborhood has a lot of existing parking in it, and it shouldn't be too hard to add a few thousand more. MSOE is already planning on adding 500 parking spaces for rent under their soccer field they are planning on building in the park east, If Kohls moved their HQ to the lot north of Knapp St on the MKE river that site has enough space that they could build 400-500 parking spots per level so that if they wanted they could have most of their parking needs met with just a few levels or parking. If you don't believe me, count the existing number of spaces on the land, and look at all the wasted space. Perhaps the city could build another public ramp west of the Kern Center with street level businesses, and the could easily meet the demand.

http://www.avclub.com/milwaukee/articles/riverwest-fest-day-1-group-of-the-altos-silence-th,66766/

Looks like this is going to be an annual thing. Have to promote Riverwest my favorite neighborhood in MKE for very selfish reasons. :cheers:
Its cool that there is an annual music event in december there now,
this being the second annual show....

Forgive me for my ignorance, but where was it stated that Kohls didn't want a highrise?

Last I had heard, the talk of moving out of Menomonee Falls, let alone to Milwaukee, was all just a ploy by Kohls to get more favorable deals from Menomonee Falls. I had heard no real consideration by Kohls to move to downtown Milwaukee until this article, thoguh I do not have a biztimes subscription, so I could not read the full article, if it was said in there.

At the end of the day though, I kind of wonder why they wouldn't want to have a tower. I know I am speaking from my totally biased "would love a new tallest in downtown milwaukee" standpoint, but wouldn't it look good for Kohls to have a large building with their name emblazoned upon the top that could be seen for miles around?

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/135930863.html

Developer proposes apartments at former north side school

The former Malcolm X Academy, which has been vacant for nearly five years, would be converted into 55 apartments for families under a new proposal.

St. Paul, Minn.-based CommonBond Communities Inc. wants to buy the building, at the northeast corner of N. 1st and E. Center streets, from Milwaukee Public Schools, and redevelop it into affordable apartments.

I love Milwaukee

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/print-edition/2011/12/16/dermond-plans-34-unit-apartment-project.html


I can't copy and paste because of a buggy, browser issue... but this is on Pleasant & Jackson, just east of the North End Apartments & Milwaukee River. It's good to see the empty building developed, now I'm hoping we'll see a large project for the east side of Water Street, north of Pleasant. The gravel lot, unkempt looking bar, & billboards make for an ugly, forgettable transition from Downtown to Brady Street.

This development and most that are proposed in that area are keeping to less than 10 floors in height to protect the neighborhood bordered by Water, Van Buren and Lyon. This neighborhood I think will become similar to the one bordered by Brady, Water and Humboldt with 19th, 20th and 21st century buildings as one community.

Taken by me:
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u291/kdickert/Mod3.jpg

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7295/mod2wa.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/35/mod2wa.jpg/)

^^^^ Take that "The Atlantic."
Nice shots. The first one is the background for my computer now.
Looking good. Milwaukee continues to improve despite
all the negativism.:cheers:

I didn't take the article as negative about MKE. The article was using MKE as an example of what is happening across the country. If it can happen in the middle of the country, then it can happen anywhere. Like all cities, there is good and bad. So many things are moving in the right direction, but there is work to do.

Seems to me that the article was about Cudahy and West Allis. It also appears as if author Rohde and the Atlantic used a photograph of The Brewery complex as their evidence of the subtitled "decline". You know, The Brewery, Zilber Properties massive coordinated development of a previous industrial (beer) property being successfully reconstituted as an urban mixed-use district including hotels, restaurants, apartments, senior living, offices, taverns, university programs and (what next?).

Aside from the negative sensationalism of predictable urban trends, it struck me mostly as ill-informed.

first post of 2012:banana::cheers:

http://www.riverwestcurrents.org/20111230342/News/Articles/Trinitas-Student-Apartments-in-Riverwest.html

Has rendering of possible student housing in riverwest.
Also it looks to be a call to arms, the locals likely will have qualms about the density of student housing. Density will create more positive foot traffic and more safety, but ofcourse more noise as well. Personally I would rather have such a development if I lived there, rather than just a brownfield.

http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2012/01/03/four-story-apartment-building-proposed-on-jackson-street/

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/136612323.html



I see this was already posted but there are renderings on the first link




Apartments proposed for east side site
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel
Jan. 4, 2012

A 34-unit apartment building is being proposed for Milwaukee's east side by a local development firm that already operates a newer apartment building in the same area.

Dermond Property Investments LLC is seeking city zoning approval for the four-story building, which would be developed on adjacent parcels at 1601 N. Jackson and 522 E. Pleasant streets, according to the proposal.

The building will have studio and one-bedroom units, and include 34 enclosed parking spaces. Each apartment would have a covered, outdoor terrace.Like other new projects on the east side, Dermond's development would largely target young professionals who want to live in a smaller, high-quality building with access to neighborhood shopping, dining and entertainment, the proposal said.

Detailed drawing set here:

city.milwaukee.gov/ImageLibrary/Groups/cityDCD/planning/cpc/1601-N-Jackson-Street-Zoning/111039ExhibitAcont.pdf

^^^^nice rendering and plans.

I actually ate at Joes before it closed down, nice little area there.
I think this overall is a good building, hopefully built well with quality materials. This will help bring density and vibrancy to the area just east of park east and help support more retail around there. I hope it gets built.

^^^^^^^^^^^^http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/looksee/scraper/BEFORENAFTER.jpg

^^^^^^^^^^

Yep, looks good. That old italian restaurant was nice, but its not a memorable building. And if you use google map and you go down pleasant street west you have another small building and then you have the new flatiron building and the north end development. On the other side of the street of pleasant you have a rather homely apartment building that is very plain at jefferson and pleasant.

Pleasant isnt a small street. Its not gargantuan either. There are plenty of developments like this on smaller streets on the east side of Milwaukee. So I really dont see the problem with this development at this location.

Its true that on jackson you mainly have sfh or two flats. There is some truck traffic, you can see a small truck at the intersection using google maps. You have the restaurant sanfords right there. So some commercial there already.

Going east on Pleasant you see a decent sized brick apt building that looks to be a 4 or 6 flat on the south side of the street. And then you hit vanburen which is definitely a major street.

I myself have gone up Pleasant many many times, nice street, and its not so bad to wait for cars on Vanburen (there should be a traffic light there though). Pleasant is a medium street I would say, not super commercial, but it crosses the Milwaukee river and is a decent street to take to get you
from brewers hill area over to the east side. Am I missing something here? As far as any cons?

This will help bridge the gap from east side to park east area. The traffic light at Vanburen and Pleasant would be a VERY good idea.

More than 550 Downtown hotel rooms in the next 2 years, as reported by Tom Daykin in this video. He said that there will be an upcoming article about these in the J/S.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/landandspace.html?tag=Hotels

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/137093323.html

More than 550 Downtown hotel rooms in the next 2 years, as reported by Tom Daykin in this video. He said that there will be an upcoming article about these in the J/S.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/landandspace.html?tag=Hotels

man, you'd think the JSOnline people could produce better quality videos than the ones they put out... the audio on their productions are always terrible

So, I talked with an urban planner friend of mine in the city the other day and, after a few beers, he let out that he'd heard that apparently the city's offer to Kohl's has been informally accepted and that just a few details need to be worked out before it is formalized and announced. Call it a rumour if you like, but this is coming from a pretty reliable inside source, albeit slightly tipsy...

So, I talked with an urban planner friend of mine in the city the other day and, after a few beers, he let out that he'd heard that apparently the city's offer to Kohl's has been informally accepted and that just a few details need to be worked out before it is formalized and announced. Call it a rumour if you like, but this is coming from a pretty reliable inside source, albeit slightly tipsy...

This would be bad for Menomonee Falls who has hosted and incented Kohl's for many years.

This would be bad for Menomonee Falls who has hosted and incented Kohl's for many years.

Meh. It would be better for the bigger picture, though. It makes sense to have as
many of a region's corporate headquarters centralised. Sprawl = bad.

Ya quite a few people I know have no idea where Kohl's corporate HQ actually is in the Falls. Unless you go West of Pilgrim on Silverspring the building is pretty challenging to see. Putting a tower/skyscraper downtown I feel is free advertisement. Especially since it would not be far from the entertainment district. I agree with Max's points. However, if the news is true, I'm sure those who live in the Falls may not be all that happy about the new commute. On the flip side, for those who live in the city or in more inner ring suburbs, this may be a good thing. This all pending if the move downtown actually happens.

well it certainly would be nice for milwaukee to get another tower in park east (assuming that's where Kohls would locate--seems to me like the most obvious choice for such a big company). Palomar would have been nice, but if this rumor is true I can't wait to see what some architecture firm pulls out for this project

We won't likely be seeing a tower associated with the Kohls development. As I understand things, it will be a series of mid-rise buildings taking up most of the Park East.

This is a game-changer for Milwaukee. You're potentially increasing the downtown workforce by 10% over the next ten years, filling the Park East (mostly), and creating serious demand for housing, hotel, and commercial space.

My only fear is that Kohls creates an insular corporate campus. For this to be a true success for the City, Kohls needs to embrace urbanism in a way that enables a vibrant pedestrian realm --- mixed use, first floor commercial space will be key.

We won't likely be seeing a tower associated with the Kohls development. As I understand things, it will be a series of mid-rise buildings taking up most of the Park East.

This is a game-changer for Milwaukee. You're potentially increasing the downtown workforce by 10% over the next ten years, filling the Park East (mostly), and creating serious demand for housing, hotel, and commercial space.

My only fear is that Kohls creates an insular corporate campus. For this to be a true success for the City, Kohls needs to embrace urbanism in a way that enables a vibrant pedestrian realm --- mixed use, first floor commercial space will be key.

And a Kohl's department store located downtown on their campus as a world class showcase.

This would be bad for Menomonee Falls who has hosted and incented Kohl's for many years.

I don't see this as bad for Menomonee Falls, sure they're losing a big tenant but this will allow other smaller firms access to quality space. Look at what happened when Manpower moved Downtown... their former space became the new HQ for AB Data, which had offices spread all over the North Shore.

Also, Menomonee Falls has high income demographics that are driving retail growth near County Line road, plus they just landed Eaton from Milwaukee... they'll be fine.

Something we really don't need downtown has gotten the go ahead by the city. We should seriously have the nickname of city of endless parking structures and lots.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/137422743.html

While I agree that Kohls moving its HQ downtown would be harmful to Menomonee Falls, i'm of the mindset of screw them and all the western suburbs. At every oppurtunity the western suburbs undermine the city of Milwaukee and try to get stuff blocked. Look at what the jerks in oconomowoc are trying to do to our proposed street car system. Since when does someone from a different town get to say what can get built here? The suburbs always do stuff like this, and our neighborhoods are destroyed to accomadate them (via highway/interstate road building and parking lots/structures). So if a major employer abandons them for the city I see it as a great thing. I know some people may not view it like this but they are the ones that started the them vs us mentality. Norquist, Tom Barrett, and Patrick Cudahy all understand this. I wonder why more Milwaukeeans don't so this too. It's the reason why downtown won't see a new basketball stadium, the suburbs and its hordes will oppose it.

Something we really don't need downtown has gotten the go ahead by the city. We should seriously have the nickname of city of endless parking structures and lots.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/137422743.html

Since when does someone from a different town get to say what can get built here?

When they are asked to pay for it!

I don't see this as bad for Menomonee Falls, sure they're losing a big tenant but this will allow other smaller firms access to quality space. Look at what happened when Manpower moved Downtown... their former space became the new HQ for AB Data, which had offices spread all over the North Shore.

Also, Menomonee Falls has high income demographics that are driving retail growth near County Line road, plus they just landed Eaton from Milwaukee... they'll be fine.

That is a good point Jesse276. The Falls did just land the corporate headquarters of Eaton. They are currently building the office center just off Good Hope Road..... There is give and take from both sides and we as a community need to work together in the suburbs and cities. Both are good for each other and need each other to be vibrant.

Potawatomi planning 'major business announcement'

By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel
Jan. 16, 2012 4:40 p.m.

Officials from Forest County Potawatomi Community and Potawatomi Bingo Casino will "make a major business announcement" Tuesday.

That's according to a news release just issued by those groups, which doesn't provide any additional information.

However, there's been speculation for years that the Menomonee Valley casino, 1721 W. Canal St., might add a hotel.

Casino spokesman Ryan Amundson declined to comment when I asked about this.

But, as early as 2003, the Journal Sentinel reported that the casino was planning to hire a consulting firm to study the feasibility of building a hotel. And that was before a major expansion of the casino was completed in 2008.

Meanwhile, hotels in and around downtown Milwaukee have seen a big increase in business over the past two years.

That's helped drive new hotel projects that are expected to bring over 500 rooms over the next two years to downtown

speculation is what was mentioned here before, a hotel.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/137443733.html

Something we really don't need downtown has gotten the go ahead by the city. We should seriously have the nickname of city of endless parking structures and lots.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/137422743.html

While I agree that Kohls moving its HQ downtown would be harmful to Menomonee Falls, i'm of the mindset of screw them and all the western suburbs. At every oppurtunity the western suburbs undermine the city of Milwaukee and try to get stuff blocked. Look at what the jerks in oconomowoc are trying to do to our proposed street car system. Since when does someone from a different town get to say what can get built here? The suburbs always do stuff like this, and our neighborhoods are destroyed to accomadate them (via highway/interstate road building and parking lots/structures). So if a major employer abandons them for the city I see it as a great thing. I know some people may not view it like this but they are the ones that started the them vs us mentality. Norquist, Tom Barrett, and Patrick Cudahy all understand this. I wonder why more Milwaukeeans don't so this too. It's the reason why downtown won't see a new basketball stadium, the suburbs and its hordes will oppose it.

I can see where you are coming from. Often times reading the jsonline comments one will see some dumb*** comment ripping Milwaukee. I try to keep in mind how usually people who have extreme views often post on there. From my personal view, Waukesha Co is pretty much seen as a good place to raise a family, not that Milwaukee Co isn't. However, I hardly hear of anyone in their 20's or early 30's going to "Historic" downtown Waukesha for a night out. Hell, its 50 times smaller than downtown Milwaukee, yet 598759785 times more challenging to get around. Personally, I feel the best thing about downtown Waukesha is Discount Liquor. :cheers:

When they are asked to pay for it!

Except they are NOT being asked to pay for it... We in Milwaukee ARE being constantly asked to pay for unnecessary highway projects that serve these selfish few out in suburbialand, however. Meanwhile they love to come and use all of our parks and cultural attractions but they don't want to pay for them. I'm with jehuty on this... Put up a wall and keep them out until they learn to be responsible citizens.

Except they are NOT being asked to pay for it... We in Milwaukee ARE being constantly asked to pay for unnecessary highway projects that serve these selfish few out in suburbialand, however. Meanwhile they love to come and use all of our parks and cultural attractions but they don't want to pay for them. I'm with jehuty on this... Put up a wall and keep them out until they learn to be responsible citizens.

A large number of Milwaukee's philanthropists live in those suburbs and those who use the cultural attractions in Milwaukee are paying their way in helping to support and keep these attraction solvent in the city to which both groups love and enjoy. Also keep in mind that fund raising for these attractions through sources like the United Way and many other individual cultural fund raisers come from the suburbs as well as the city. Both are needed for survival. Mr. MilwaukeeMax, Tear down that wall!

@MilwaukeeMax

A wall is not the answer and would be far too expensive. The answer to the suburban problem is very simple. Construct a toll way when getting into the city and watch the suburbanites yield. Put a toll way at the zoo interchange and by the airport, charge Chicago toll way prices, and watch them squirm. With all the revenue recovered from the toll being payed we can fund transit in the city (something which the suburbanites would very much hate). Plus, it would really affect us city dwellers cause how often do we really leave Milwaukee to go to the burbs? If anything, we go directly to Madison or Chicago and those things don't happen that frequently. The truth is, many suburbanites work in downtown Milwaukee and would have to pay the tolls. It would be a win win for the city:)

As for the Potawatomi Casino and their new hotel I say its a shame. Just imagine if the Casino was built downtown along with Miller park in the park east area. A dedicated stadium/casino district that is close to the convention center would've done wonders for our city. The original pabst city surely would have been completed if such a district had existed. I think one of the biggest problems Milwaukee has is just how far apart most of our attractions are. And since our transit system is garbage and our taxi fleet only exist on drinking nights tourist and city dwellers are hard pressed getting to the attraction and staying around the area looking to do other things.

Milwaukee should really look at how in Chicago almost all attractions are withing walking distance of Michigan avenue and those that aren't can be reached easily by rail or bus transit. Hell, getting to o'hare from downtown only requires taking one train. Milwaukee needs to get its attractions within a closer proximity. I say we start by moving the Public Museum closer to the art museum and creating a campus there. With that area soon to see some new development (odonell park and the transit center being razed) the city can put in steps to make the area more friendly and attracitve to tourist and city dwellers alike (plus make the streetcar go there too *provided the funds*).

http://media.jsonline.com/images/26790993-mjs_potawatomi.jpg



Plans for a 20-story, 382-room hotel at Potawatomi Bingo Casino, costing around $150 million to develop, were announced Tuesday by casino and tribal officials, who say it would generate more business for the casino.

The Forest County Potawatomi Community, which owns the Menomonee Valley casino, plans to begin construction in late spring on the hotel, which would be near the main entrance of the casino, 1721 W. Canal St. The hotel would take about two years to build.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/137483163.html

That is one ugly building. I am all for the idea of building a hotel there, even a tall one (though I do think it will look a bit out of place) but this hotel is just hideous. Please please please have a redesign. Can't the people who got behind the Mariott's architectural changes put their weight behind this?

Seriously, I NEVER understood the appeal of all these new buildings with their randomly sized and placed windows. Ugly ugly ugly.

We won't likely be seeing a tower associated with the Kohls development. As I understand things, it will be a series of mid-rise buildings taking up most of the Park East.

This is a game-changer for Milwaukee. You're potentially increasing the downtown workforce by 10% over the next ten years, filling the Park East (mostly), and creating serious demand for housing, hotel, and commercial space.

My only fear is that Kohls creates an insular corporate campus. For this to be a true success for the City, Kohls needs to embrace urbanism in a way that enables a vibrant pedestrian realm --- mixed use, first floor commercial space will be key.


Sorry for the double post, but I just saw this. Where is the info coming from that they wouldn't build a tower? Not that I don't believe you, I just haven't heard anything about it one way or another, and NOT building a tower would seem like a real missed opportunity.

That is one Butt Ugly building. Such a waste to hide what I thought was a nice entrance to a casino with a 1960's retro government looking building. Stretch this building and add a platform and you have the new Patawatomi Hotel. Bla bla bla....

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/statewi.jpg

And another ugly building project canceled in Milwaukee
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/palomar14p2.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/26790993-mjs_potawatomi.jpg

Remember when two separate proposals competed for the same location around the SYDNEY HiH?
Well, it looks to me like someone (any architects claim credit yet?) was paying too much attention to both designs (unfortunately):


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/looksee/scraper/INSPIRATIONAL.jpg

@MilwaukeeMax

A wall is not the answer and would be far too expensive. The answer to the suburban problem is very simple. Construct a toll way when getting into the city and watch the suburbanites yield. Put a toll way at the zoo interchange and by the airport, charge Chicago toll way prices, and watch them squirm. With all the revenue recovered from the toll being payed we can fund transit in the city (something which the suburbanites would very much hate). Plus, it would really affect us city dwellers cause how often do we really leave Milwaukee to go to the burbs? If anything, we go directly to Madison or Chicago and those things don't happen that frequently. The truth is, many suburbanites work in downtown Milwaukee and would have to pay the tolls. It would be a win win for the city:)

As for the Potawatomi Casino and their new hotel I say its a shame. Just imagine if the Casino was built downtown along with Miller park in the park east area. A dedicated stadium/casino district that is close to the convention center would've done wonders for our city. The original pabst city surely would have been completed if such a district had existed. I think one of the biggest problems Milwaukee has is just how far apart most of our attractions are. And since our transit system is garbage and our taxi fleet only exist on drinking nights tourist and city dwellers are hard pressed getting to the attraction and staying around the area looking to do other things.

Milwaukee should really look at how in Chicago almost all attractions are withing walking distance of Michigan avenue and those that aren't can be reached easily by rail or bus transit. Hell, getting to o'hare from downtown only requires taking one train. Milwaukee needs to get its attractions within a closer proximity. I say we start by moving the Public Museum closer to the art museum and creating a campus there. With that area soon to see some new development (odonell park and the transit center being razed) the city can put in steps to make the area more friendly and attracitve to tourist and city dwellers alike (plus make the streetcar go there too *provided the funds*).

Where would Miller Park have been built in the late 90's downtown when the Park East Freeway was still there??? I was just curious if there was a space you had in mind? Moving the MPM near the MAM would be a good idea though imo.

wow hold your complaints on the design of the Potawatomi Casino hotel, there isn't any other architecture in the area to compete against. There is a giant coal power plant and a rail yard. If this was in the central business district then go ahead complain (though personally i don't think its that bad of a design, it stands out).

Where would Miller Park have been built in the late 90's downtown when the Park East Freeway was still there???

The four options they had for Miller Park were Menomonee Valley, County Grounds, near the Summerfest Grounds or Oak Creek.

Just saw the render for the casino hotel :lol: If we are complaining about it on here i'm sure so will Barrett and Donovan. The Hotel will in all likeliness look something completely different. A hotel in the valley will probably only be used for casino purposes since i don't think many fans from other baseball teams travel to miller park anyways (save the Cubs/WSox and Twins fans,even then those from the Chicagoland area likely will head back home after a game).

Since gambling is a vice why not get the gentlemen's clubs (if you can call them that) that are currently are downtown and in walkers point (plus the one the silk people want built there) and put them somewhere near the casino. There you have it , after catching a baseball game or once leaving summer fest or the Harley museum adults would have one convenient area for all of vegas-like debauchery :lol:

If this new hotel costs 97 million dollars, I would prefer they cloned the 30 story Moderne highrise which is costing aprox 75-80 million. That is a much more attractive building for the money IMO. Now, I am very happy that this development is moving forward and should be good for the casino and the Harley museum just down the road. It will appear as though the valley will be giving the city of Milwaukee the finger as it will be the tallest structure east of I94 I think.

Does anybody know if it is at all possible for the city to get the Potawotam Casino moved downtown somehow? I think the current casino is built on tribal lands (don't quote me on that) and I thought that I read somewhere that the tribe originally wanted the location of the casino downtown. The more i think about it the more a 20-story structure would look out of place in the valley. i predict Donovan will raise a huge fuss over this and in this rare case I would see his point. A hotel that tall would look so out of place down there in the valley.

wow hold your complaints on the design of the Potawatomi Casino hotel, there isn't any other architecture in the area to compete against.

There is another structure nearby that's actually made a more original statement despite a very similar setting:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/Harley-Davidson_Museum_0057.jpg/800px-Harley-Davidson_Museum_0057.jpgwikipedia

I think at a location so removed from the demands (too often ignored) of Downtown's grid of urbanity, and with really nothing pleasing to clash against, the sky could be the limit, as far as design goes, if the Casino owners so wished.
Obviously, successful in their current building, which to me resembles a windowless early 1960s high school, they probably couldn't care less about outward appearances.
Oh well.

Its been a while. Looks like max got his phd in totalitarianism while i was gone. Looks he has a couple little kim jung ill's in the wings.

More people live in the burbs than the city. They are also wealthier and better educated, so get used to taking marching orders from the burbs for a long time, even if Kohls moves downtown. Speaking of, i picture that building looking like manpower x 2. It will need a large garage for all those horrible commuters from the burbs.

Poto hotel might look ok. Bauman need to find a historic shack that once existed on the site so he can dictate to the tribe a building he finds acceptable.

They are also wealthier and better educated, so get used to taking marching orders from the burbs for a long time.

That is an insanely absurd statement. Where did you get the impression that the suburbs are more educated than the people in the city. I'm almost certain that's false. As for being wealthier, I can understand where you'd get that impression, because the houses are bigger out there. But there are thousands of people living in the city in not-quite-as large victorian homes that are worth more than twice the value. I would like to get some figures on this (but inevitably it would lead to another pissing match in defining what's "city" and what's "suburban.")

As for the dominance of suburban life in policy decisions...I'm not so sure it will last for much longer. The suburban lifestyle is subsidized by staggering amounts of state and federal funds. We're in a VERY difficult time financially a a global level and in the meantime our governments are trying to cut any and all expenses they have. Of course for now they're leaving gas a road subsidies alone, but they're nearing the edge of the chopping block.


Back to development. I actually approve of the Potawatomi Hotel tower, but agree that it does not attempt to work with it's surroundings in any way.

wow hold your complaints on the design of the Potawatomi Casino hotel, there isn't any other architecture in the area to compete against. There is a giant coal power plant and a rail yard. If this was in the central business district then go ahead complain (though personally i don't think its that bad of a design, it stands out).

Just because its out of the way and in an industrial area doesn't mean they shouldn't try. That thing is absolutely hideous.

They are also wealthier and better educated

lol wow, care to back that up?


Just because its out of the way and in an industrial area doesn't mean they shouldn't try. That thing is absolutely hideous

ok i should have been more specific, the not that great of a design DOES blend in with its surroundings of a power plant, rail yard, and shipping canal...But come on, I bet it will have a cool lighting system for the night time!

ok i should have been more specific, the not that great of a design DOES blend in with its surroundings of a power plant, rail yard, and shipping canal...But come on, I bet it will have a cool lighting system for the night time!

Sorry, I gotta pile on... this tower will be very, very visible to many people every day. There are so many people that will pass on 16th Street & I-94. You'll be able to see this tower from miles around... they have to get it right.

A beige 3 story box is one thing... an ugly 20 story tower will leave a lasting scar.

Its been a while. Looks like max got his phd in totalitarianism while i was gone. Looks he has a couple little kim jung ill's in the wings.

More people live in the burbs than the city. They are also wealthier and better educated, so get used to taking marching orders from the burbs for a long time, even if Kohls moves downtown. Speaking of, i picture that building looking like manpower x 2. It will need a large garage for all those horrible commuters from the burbs.

Poto hotel might look ok. Bauman need to find a historic shack that once existed on the site so he can dictate to the tribe a building he finds acceptable.

Really!?, cmon... we know you're just trying to stir the pot. Bring it up a notch... if the suburbs are so classy & smart, what happened to you?

Yet another reason why I never visit non-privately owned gambling casinos that don't operate in a much more true and open competitive market (as in Nevada).

Maybe whenever Wisconsin finally gets around to licensing casinos like they do in Nevada (and like we now license bars, and not just with those wimpy 'gray-market' video machines that are in so many of them nowadays)....

Mike

According to the latest census...
Percentage of residents with a Bachelor's degree over 25 by Metro Counties:

Milwaukee 26.8 947,000ish
Waukesha 38.4 389,000ish
Ozaukee 42.2 87,000ish
Washington 25.9 132,000ish

grant it these are bachelor degrees and don't account for tech schools

http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-american-downtowns.php

Guess things are already pretty nice as they currently are...

A couple opinions I have had on recent news, discussions, and development.


-I really enjoy the prospect of Kohls moving downtown. A high profile corporation like this should have a high profile location for it's HQ. The problem with it's current location is that it's relatively in the middle of nowhere. It's a random black building in a far flung suburban campus, relatively far away from 45/94. While Menomonee Falls is closer to their existing workforce, a downtown location is a more attractive locale for future employees. Kohls is no longer a regional retailer and it needs to stay cutting edge as a national retailer. Downtown Milwaukee certainly isn't L.A. but it does offer alot more than the Falls. It's much closer to the airport, convention center, nice hotels, and expensive restaurants. There aren't any hotels near the current HQ, nor are there any restaurants that would cater to the bigwigs.

The HQ being in downtown Milwaukee would have a bigger impact on the surrounding area than it would in the Falls too. Imagine the impact that thousands of new workers could have on the local businesses and the need for new ones. It could tie in well with the Pabst development and other vacant Park East land by spurring demand for nearby residental.

I do have a few problems with it though. First, it seems very cold to steal away business from a suburb with massive tax incentives. If this happens, I don't want to hear another person complain about corporate welfare. Giving Kohls $100-150 million in New Market Tax Credits to move a few miles is a pretty ridiculous waste of taxpayer money. Then again, it is proof that business moves where they will get the best deal and that should figure into how we try to lure business. I understand that Eaton was lured to the Falls but they are a much smaller business and were going to leave Milwaukee anyway. I also fear that Kohls will build some suburban office park development with a huge garage. I would love to see an iconic skyscraper there. Another thing I don't like is this would take away a future spot for a new arena--if it ever happens.




--I am not too big of a fan of the Potawatomi Hotel design but it'll do. It's not terrible but I expect more for a casino hotel. Regardless, I like the idea of a 20 story building in the Valley. This design looks like the bastard child of Palomar (1st design), the new North Ave. library, Convent Hill Apartments, and The Point on the River. It's a very Milwaukee looking building. I would like to see something with more pizzazz. Other than that, it's great news for the Valley. If they ever build a streetcar, this is where it makes sense connecting the train station-Harley Museum-Potawatomi/hotel-Miller Park. Maybe the Potawatomi will pay for a new arena connected to the casino. It would be cool to have an entertainment district side by side with railyards and factories.


--This suburbs vs city thing in Milwaukee is the most obnoxious bulls---. I am sick and tired of both sides. A few weeks ago, some guy called in the Mark Belling show (regarding the Kohls topic) and said the situation reminded him of Crips vs. Bloods. People in the burbs' saying Milwaukee is a decrepit cesspool. People in Milwaukee saying the burbs' are greedy idiots. As somebody who lives in Milwaukee but spends alot of time in the burbs', it annoys me. This recall stuff isn't helping either. People in the suburbs are just going to continue to block things in Milwaukee out of pure spite. And frankly, they have reason to be angry feeling their votes were stolen under the recall law. The Dems should have left well alone instead of stirring up a hornets nest. Allowing a surplus to grow and the economy to improve under the normal election cycle. People would have been more open to rail, streetcars, arenas, and bike lanes when they aren't in a perpetual election year. The Dems would have regained power eventually and been able to push things through in Milwaukee. Now....these things are just going to be huge lightning rods, regardless who wins. People will threaten recall for daring to support anything they disagree with and it will scare politicians from having bold ideas. I don't want to get political but this is the way it is now and it's sad. I wish we could STFU about petty politics in this state and get on with job growth and making the city/state better.

building a hotel in the Men Val reminds reminds me of the first tall building built west of the Kennedy in Chicago. EVERYONE sees it from the interstate. Once the first goes up, more follow.

This Pot Hotel has to be top notch. Nothing less. If for some reason, urban high rises spread west and south of I94, they better be beyond tip notch designs.

Those building will be seen before nearly all East Side buildings

--This suburbs vs city thing in Milwaukee is the most obnoxious bulls---. I am sick and tired of both sides. A few weeks ago, some guy called in the Mark Belling show (regarding the Kohls topic) and said the situation reminded him of Crips vs. Bloods. People in the burbs' saying Milwaukee is a decrepit cesspool. People in Milwaukee saying the burbs' are greedy idiots. As somebody who lives in Milwaukee but spends alot of time in the burbs', it annoys me. This recall stuff isn't helping either. People in the suburbs are just going to continue to block things in Milwaukee out of pure spite. And frankly, they have reason to be angry feeling their votes were stolen under the recall law. The Dems should have left well alone instead of stirring up a hornets nest. Allowing a surplus to grow and the economy to improve under the normal election cycle. People would have been more open to rail, streetcars, arenas, and bike lanes when they aren't in a perpetual election year. The Dems would have regained power eventually and been able to push things through in Milwaukee. Now....these things are just going to be huge lightning rods, regardless who wins. People will threaten recall for daring to support anything they disagree with and it will scare politicians from having bold ideas. I don't want to get political but this is the way it is now and it's sad. I wish we could STFU about petty politics in this state and get on with job growth and making the city/state better.

I agree that lack of civility in this state is sorely missing, whether it be those who live in the city or suburbs of city or out in the sticks within the state of Wisconsin. I live in Oshkosh but often have to drive through Milwaukee and environs.

I will not go into a rant on the Recall Walker BS other than to say this action has and will set a terrible president and the consequences will not bode well towards Wisconsin.

This lack of civility has had its consequences felt in an area (Metro Milwaukee) that in the 1970's was a top 20 in population market. The Twin cities of Minneapolis/St Paul was appoximatly the same population as that of metro Milwaukee. Now 40 years later The Twin cities has nearly twice as many people. Cooperation even if those in that metro area have a dislike or disagreement toward the other city in that area still have found a way to show some civility to his opposition. I can't say from what I have seen in this forum can say the same can be said about the city of Milwaukee and its suburbs cooperating much at all. Even the City of Chicago has some level of cooperation between the city and its surrounding suburbs.

Until there is some dialog and cooperation and civility in the 7 county region that Milwaukee and her suburbs are in, That area will always lag behind in national population growth and other cities and metro areas will take the place of importance that metro Milwaukee once had.

I for one hope Milwaukee and its surrounding area do well in employment and growth. It helps everyone not only in that area but it helps the State of Wisconsin as well. So when expressing an idea or thought that maybe objectionable let's try to remember the idea is to make the whole area better and not at the expense of the other.

What many posters in here are forgetting on the whole Milwaukee vs Suburbs thing is that for the most part Milwaukee just wants to be left alone. The streetcar is a perfect example of this. Milwaukee wants to build a rail system to better serve the needs of the city and the suburbs come in and interject just because the want to cause problems. Some will argue that the funds would be better used for county buses and what not but this poses the question, why are so many people from Waukesha so interested in what happens in Milwaukee county and City? The HSR was rejected by Walker just to appease his base, his base not wanting Milwaukee and Madison linked anymore than they already are (not to mention to whole High speed rail project has nothing to do with Wisconsin other than the fact that its in between Chicago and the Twin Cities).
So please don't make it seem like its Milwaukee that it is directing heat towards the suburbs. The reality is that it is usually the burbs trying to impose their will on Milwaukee (Hoan Bridge not being razed as it should be, Streetcar battle, destroying neighborhoods for roads, etc).


I really don't like the idea of too many towers in the valley. It would look very weird and out of place. I hope Potawatomi revises the design of the hotel and makes it really stand out. Plus, I really believe that the tribe would probably help pay for a Streetcar line that goes in its direction and connects all the attractions in the valley.

And a big no to a basketball stadium in the valley too. Even if a Kohls HQ gets built in the park east, there is still plenty of room for a new basketball stadium there too (but Potawatomi will probably get naming rights if a new stadium is built).

Seriously, I NEVER understood the appeal of all these new buildings with their randomly sized and placed windows. Ugly ugly ugly.

Does anyone happen to know the architectural motivation behind the trend of placing and sizing windows on a building facade in a random pattern?

Does anyone happen to know the architectural motivation behind the trend of placing and sizing windows on a building facade in a random pattern?

I think the Dutch started that trend. Not sure why.

FWIW, I think the effect looks great on Kilbourn Tower and Park Lafayette, but that's most likely because it's juxtaposed with glass curtain walls on all three towers.

The random window size thing on buildings is simply a fashion trend, not based on any functional or performance requirement. Consider it like you would a trend in the clothing industry; hollow and without substance, propped up by the visual imagery presented in magazines.

Everything constructed on or within a building should be justifiable and with reason. Were one to ask the designer to defend decisions on this project (or any building, for that matter), the answers would be most telling. Its a shame that accountability in this regard is not demanded.

One of my favorite examples is shown earlier: The Harley-Davidson Museum. Does anyone know what H-D riders call cars? Cages. Can anyone fathom why Pentagram, a graphic design firm with a couple architects, put the H-D logo in a cage as a primary design element on the museum? Bizarre and mannered and without great forethought, then never questioned by the Client.

Everything constructed on or within a building should be justifiable and with reason.

I'm afraid your demand would actually result in what the Soviets created in their "Realist" paradise, or a landscape covered with the economical and efficient sheds provided by Menards and the like (and such is really the case where visual appeal matters not, like in modern warehouse districts).

Nearly everything you see on the exterior of all other kinds of buildings is there by choice, not necessity, and depends on (in addition to applicable building codes and ordinances) budget available, traditions, image desired, and the talents and tastes of the decision makers.
Fads, group-think, individual and local experience -- all quite unquantifiable -- are what lead to what we finally see on the outside (and inside, once the drywall goes up) of any human habitation that's moved beyond subsistence.

I think what much of our discussion in these forums centers around is how these choices, choices, especially for projects large enough to catch the eye of many people or well situated enough to alter their neighborhoods, reflect upon us as a community, and affect our chances of progressing toward more success or retreating to further failure.

Engineering may be (mostly) applied science and subject to the rules of reason; Marketing may seem reason-based but is dependent on public whims and desires; Architecture must be framed by engineering and financed to some extent by market forces, but it should also be art, so it doesn't end up looking like it was designed by Commissars or sold by Menards.

I agree that lack of civility in this state is sorely missing, whether it be those who live in the city or suburbs of city or out in the sticks within the state of Wisconsin. I live in Oshkosh but often have to drive through Milwaukee and environs.

I will not go into a rant on the Recall Walker BS other than to say this action has and will set a terrible president and the consequences will not bode well towards Wisconsin.

This lack of civility has had its consequences felt in an area (Metro Milwaukee) that in the 1970's was a top 20 in population market. The Twin cities of Minneapolis/St Paul was appoximatly the same population as that of metro Milwaukee. Now 40 years later The Twin cities has nearly twice as many people. Cooperation even if those in that metro area have a dislike or disagreement toward the other city in that area still have found a way to show some civility to his opposition. I can't say from what I have seen in this forum can say the same can be said about the city of Milwaukee and its suburbs cooperating much at all. Even the City of Chicago has some level of cooperation between the city and its surrounding suburbs.

Until there is some dialog and cooperation and civility in the 7 county region that Milwaukee and her suburbs are in, That area will always lag behind in national population growth and other cities and metro areas will take the place of importance that metro Milwaukee once had.

I for one hope Milwaukee and its surrounding area do well in employment and growth. It helps everyone not only in that area but it helps the State of Wisconsin as well. So when expressing an idea or thought that maybe objectionable let's try to remember the idea is to make the whole area better and not at the expense of the other.

Good points made, however comparing Milwaukee and MSP population growth is kind of apples to oranges imo. I feel that two cities of 250k and 350k in close proximity will naturally have much larger suburban population I feel as each city . For instance, if in 1970 Waukesha had 200k people, I would guess our area may have near 4 million people as well. However, I do feel our lack of growth is due to some of the circumstance you mentioned above.

I personally believe that our underdeveloped freeway could be partly to blame. Comparing our freeway to MSP is not even close. I feel that if the Belt or Lake Freeway's had been built that many rural parts of New Berlin, Muskego, Falls etc would have larger populations. Just a hypothesis....

I understand that some of you on here really don't care for Freeways, however, imo I feel that the greatest areas of growth in this area is recently is near them. For instance, Hwy 16 in Lake Country.

Would far southern Milwaukee Co still be underdeveloped if a the Belt freeway ran parallel with Rawson in Franklin, maybe? If 794 extended to Chicago maybe Racine would be included in our MSA.

Just my thoughts


http://www.wisconsinhighways.org/milwaukee/system_map.html

I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't be a bad idea to forcefully amalgamate the entire urbanized Milwaukee metro area into one city....

Mike

Milwaukeshatosacine...Milwaukeeland...Tri Cities (Milwaukee, Waukesha, Racine)....just thinking of the most ridiculous names I can..ha

This lack of civility has had its consequences felt in an area (Metro Milwaukee) that in the 1970's was a top 20 in population market. The Twin cities of Minneapolis/St Paul was appoximatly the same population as that of metro Milwaukee. Now 40 years later The Twin cities has nearly twice as many people.
The Twin Cities area has been considerably more populous than Milwaukee since about 1880.
More recently it has maintained its relative national ranking through vigorous growth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas)
while Milwaukee has lagged. http://www.peakbagger.com/pbgeog/histmetropop.aspx (http://www.peakbagger.com/pbgeog/histmetropop.aspx)

While the lack of cooperation and even obstructionism in city-suburban relations is deplorable and destructive, the underlying reason for the different paths MPLS and MKE have taken is their different economies:
Milwaukee's, of course, much, much more dependent on traditional manufacturing and suffering greatly from its decline in the U.S., but the Twin Cities a center for a time of higher tech (Sperry-Univac, Control Data, Honeywell, Unisys), and now, high finance.


I personally believe that our underdeveloped freeway could be partly to blame. Just a hypothesis....

If such were the case then certainly Detroit and even Cleveland, with far more comprehensive freeway systems, would be thriving. Instead they've actually lost metropolitan area populations, unlike Milwaukee, which still has had modest gains.

looksee, I think you misunderstand the terms "justifiably" and "with reason" or purpose. They certainly don't preclude ornamentation, material diversity, interest or detail. I can think of very few situations that can defensibly result in a cheap metal building solution if the decisions related to the project are made in good faith.

Regarding Metro-Milwaukee's population and comparisons to the Twin Cities, you all are forgetting that we're heavily constrained by the Lake. A massive border which ostensibly eliminates a full 50% of the available land within a reasonable commute to the city center. Reasonable automobile commutes in the two regions discussed here tend to be in the 30-35 mile range, based upon development trends to date.

Regarding Metro-Milwaukee's population and comparisons to the Twin Cities, you all are forgetting that we're heavily constrained by the Lake. A massive border which ostensibly eliminates a full 50% of the available land within a reasonable commute to the city center. Reasonable automobile commutes in the two regions discussed here tend to be in the 30-35 mile range, based upon development trends to date.

chicago is also heavily constrained by the same lake in a very similar fashion as milwaukee, yet that didn't seem to impede chicago's growth into the nation's 2nd largest metropolis (though it has since slipped to 3rd with the meteoric rise of LA in the 2nd half of the 20th century).

milwaukee's lack of growth relative to a metro like the twin cities is not driven by the presence of lake michigan or an inadequate expressway network. looksee is absolutely right, it's about the economy. the twin cities were never as heavily reliant on heavy industry and manufacturing as milwaukee was. the twins certainly had robust and important industrial/manufacturing sectors, but the twins have also been BIG players in agribusiness/food industry, and agribusiness never took it on the chin the same way heavy industry did.


another thing to consider in the equation, and i know that some milwaukeeans might bristle at this being brought up, but i do think that milwaukee's location a mere 80 miles north of the most important city in the interior of the entire country has historically had a negative affect on milwaukee's growth potential. if chicago had not become what it became, i think you could make an argument for a MUCH larger milwaukee today. in fact, the natural estuary created by the milwaukee, menomonee, and kinnickinnic rivers made for a profoundly better harbor for commercial shipping than the chicago river ever did. of course, chicago's postion towards the bottom of the lake made it a natural center for railroads as it became a choke point for railroads to get around and past the great lakes.

the twin cities are far enough away from any other major commercial center that they command a vast hinterland all to themselves. milwaukee is not afforded that luxury to the same degree by virtue of its placement right next door to the juggernaut known as chicago.

chicago is also heavily constrained by the same lake in a very similar fashion as milwaukee,

Yes, it is constrained in the same manner and, obviously, it too loses about 50% of the land available for a typical bedroom commuter's community. I don't know that your position refutes Milwaukee's constraint as much as it confirms it. LA has similar oceanic constraints, but the growth of western cities is much more difficult to compare to cities in our region or east.

the twin cities are far enough away from any other major commercial center that they command a vast hinterland all to themselves.

I believe this to be another strong factor in the relative growth rates so it bears repeating.

Yes, it is constrained in the same manner and, obviously, it too loses about 50% of the land available for a typical bedroom commuter's community. I don't know that your position refutes Milwaukee's constraint as much as it confirms it.
the fact that chicago and milwaukee share nearly identical geographic constraints due to lake michigan, yet chicago still managed to grow into the second largest metropolis in the nation leads me to believe that the presence of lake michigan is NOT a main contributing factor to milwaukee's more modest growth relative to other big cities in the region. the lake surely didn't stunt chicago's growth, why would it have stunted milwaukee's?

Good points made, however comparing Milwaukee and MSP population growth is kind of apples to oranges imo. I feel that two cities of 250k and 350k in close proximity will naturally have much larger suburban population I feel as each city . For instance, if in 1970 Waukesha had 200k people, I would guess our area may have near 4 million people as well. However, I do feel our lack of growth is due to some of the circumstance you mentioned above.

I personally believe that our underdeveloped freeway could be partly to blame. Comparing our freeway to MSP is not even close. I feel that if the Belt or Lake Freeway's had been built that many rural parts of New Berlin, Muskego, Falls etc would have larger populations. Just a hypothesis....

I understand that some of you on here really don't care for Freeways, however, imo I feel that the greatest areas of growth in this area is recently is near them. For instance, Hwy 16 in Lake Country.

Would far southern Milwaukee Co still be underdeveloped if a the Belt freeway ran parallel with Rawson in Franklin, maybe? If 794 extended to Chicago maybe Racine would be included in our MSA.

Just my thoughts

Those are some interesting thoughts. As for freeways interaction with the growth rate of its specific corridor, I agree it increases growth because it increases mobility. It works the same way with adding transit capacity, you're increasing mobility & thus increasing growth over what it would have otherwise been. However, the affect on the growth rate of the greater area is usually nominal.

Think of it as redistributive growth, redirecting growth from one jurisdiction into another. It's not always a zero sum game though, it can be a negative or positive sum game depending on the freeway/transit/mobility investments. We can look at Detroit for a negative-sum investment in freeways.

As for positive-sum freeway investments, there is a benefit to opening up areas for development if the central city is pricing companies out of the metro altogether. If by increasing mobility(freeways & transit) a metro can keep a lid on property prices, then it can grow without spinning off too much economic activity to lower-priced outside regions.

Milwaukee's freeways are not currently well-utilized compared to other metros, I don't think additional capacity would really change the macro-development picture all too much. Of course, it could have redistributed some growth... still could, but there wouldn't be a net-benefit to the region.

The reason for being of the MStP metro area is that that is the farthest upstream that the Mississippi River is commercially navigable and thus serves as a natural 'stepping off' point for grain and other related transportation. Rail the grain into town, convert it to flour and related products (there is a reason why Pillsbury and other similar companies are there!) and then barge it to other markets downstream.

Mike

the lake surely didn't stunt chicago's growth, why would it have stunted milwaukee's?

Let me see if I can dig something up on that... Oh yea, here you go, some fella made this excellent observation earlier!

of course, chicago's postion towards the bottom of the lake made it a natural center for railroads as it became a choke point for railroads to get around and past the great lakes.

I don't want to suggest that the Lake is the only, or even primary reason for Milwaukee's growth rates or size relative to other cities in the region. It is a reason though, one that had been overlooked in several comparative posts that preceded the introduction of the lake as a reason.

I don't want to suggest that the Lake is the only, or even primary reason for Milwaukee's growth rates or size relative to other cities in the region. It is a reason though,

and i would argue that lake michigan's presence would be an incredibly minor factor, if even a factor at all, in milwaukee's more modest growth compared to other cities in the region. milwauke's slower growth compared to the twin cities is in no way due to a lack of available land, IMO.

if you feel otherwise, there's nothing more left for us than to agree to disagree. :)

HaletotheZoo: "I personally believe that our underdeveloped freeway could be partly to blame. Comparing our freeway to MSP is not even close. I feel that if the Belt or Lake Freeway's had been built that many rural parts of New Berlin, Muskego, Falls etc would have larger populations. Just a hypothesis...."


I agree that highways are often helpful in encouraging growth. One issue Milwaukee has though is that it isn't a real "crossroads" type city - where people are regularly passing through it on their way to other areas. Chicago has always served in that role for a lot of the Midwest due to its location at the southern end of Lake Michigan.

Places like Kansas City, St. Louis, Indianapolis and Columbus in the Midwest and others such as Atlanta, Dallas and a few other places in the US also benefit from seeing significant cross-through traffic. Almost everything coming from the NE / Eastern US going to the NW / West must swing around Lake Michigan - thus bringing it through Chicago. The route going West / NW to or from Chicago however typically does not go through Milwaukee. It uses the slightly shorter route which moves along I-90 through Madison to the Twin Cities and beyond. Only traffic going to Milwaukee or to the Fox Valley cities will run to or through Milwaukee. Lake Superior blocks land travel to / from the north - and Lake Michigan blocks land travel to / from the East. It virtually makes Milwaukee almost like it is out on the end of a peninsula -- with nothing beyond. Basically there is northern Wisconsin (north of Green Bay), Northwestern Ontario (with little population), Hudson Bay - and then the North Pole, and Siberia beyond.

While building new / expanded highways might sound like a helpful idea, they wouldn't necessarily be needed and therefore be beneficial - because there is not a strong demand for people and commerce to pass through Milwaukee on their way to other major markets - because there are no other major markets to the north beyond Milwaukee to travel to or from.

I think this has a lot to do with some of slower population growth numbers for the region. Its a great city and region -- but it is not ideally situated to benefit from businesses wanting to be at a crossroads for their region.

Regarding Metro-Milwaukee's population and comparisons to the Twin Cities, you all are forgetting that we're heavily constrained by the Lake. A massive border which ostensibly eliminates a full 50% of the available land within a reasonable commute to the city center.
The question is, why has the population of the Twin Cities region recently grown so much more than Milwaukee's?

Milwaukee's downtown has never played the dominant center of employment role compared to its historical peer cities, largely because of Chicago's draw of finance related office work, and also because of a local tradition of putting industry-related offices adjacent to factories; Shopping was also dispersed to neighborhood retail centers very early on (Schusters, one of the largest local department store chains, never even had a downtown location). A very large percentage of metro employment has long been dispersed throughout the region, and the "Lake Effect" was no impediment at all.

Milwaukee has stagnated essentially for the same reason as Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and many others in the "Rust Belt": An over-dependence on traditional old-line industry and manufacturing, which have been mercilessly gutted in our country in the last several decades.
The tensions, frustrations and social breakdowns exacerbated by this overriding situation probably play a role in the city-suburban quarrels, but it's the economy that's failing to pull the cart, not the other way around.

I think Milwaukee may be luckier than a few of its fellow victims, and may be able to more quickly pull itself out of the rut.

the fact that chicago and milwaukee share nearly identical geographic constraints due to lake michigan, yet chicago still managed to grow into the second largest metropolis in the nation leads me to believe that the presence of lake michigan is NOT a main contributing factor to milwaukee's more modest growth relative to other big cities in the region. the lake surely didn't stunt chicago's growth, why would it have stunted milwaukee's?

Apples and Oranges. Chicago grew into Indiana and SW Michigan. Chicago is at the terminus of the lake. MKE is abruptly against it.

Even a city like Portland Oregon benefits from being inland somewhat.

Why does it even matter? MKE and ORD are becoming one enormous region. What, is there about 3 miles of farmland between the two?

Does anyone happen to know the architectural motivation behind the trend of placing and sizing windows on a building facade in a random pattern?

It's a design idealogy that spans millenia; as designers and the cultures they represent grow tired of rationality and order, chaos and randomness becomes favored. Eventually, that lack of order becomes tired, and rationality and order will become favored again. On and on until we all are dead.

In modern times, the style of disorder is often traced to Ruskin's Red House, which is a precursor to the work of HH Richardson or Frank Lloyd Wright, and was built at a time when neoclassicism and the technoid Crystal Palace was being built.

http://www.ontarioarchitecture.com/arts/artsredhouse.jpg
ontarioarchitecture.com

Nice analysis, CGII, but different rationale. While I haven't studied either Ruskin or this particular house in detail, it appears to me that the design eschewed classically dogmatic exterior regularity in order to express the function within.

In that image alone, I can identify the stair, a double height space, a small bright study, sleeping/storage/back of house, etc... Solely by considering window size, proportion and placement. The Pot Hotel design is certainly not using window size to suggest or reinforce interior function.

This would be a precursor to the ill-considered slid grid of windows in modern-magazine design like Chaucer is the precursor to a teenager's text message.

This would be a precursor to the ill-considered slid grid of windows in modern-magazine design like Chaucer is the precursor to a teenager's text message.
If the texting teens were gifted writers they would be artistic descendants of the old Tales teller.

Are you contending that "slid grid" windows can never work, or just that they're almost always misused by design hacks?

I wouldn't use the word "never".

I'm simply stating that the slid grid, as used on the Pot Hotel project, is a tired cliche borrowed from magazine imagery with no thought or discernible reason behind it, no connection to the interior plan, no relationship to levels of light or view required and no measure of creative talent employed.

Touche re: The Artful Texter.

^^^^ :okay:

Apples and Oranges. Chicago grew into Indiana and SW Michigan.

no, the geographic comparison is still mostly apples to apples. chicago didn't grow into the second largest metropolis in the nation because it could expand into the land of NW indiana and SW michigan. even today, NW indiana's population makes up only a small percentage chicago's MSA. and no part of chicago's MSA (or even CSA) extends into michigan.

4 NW indiana counties in chicago's MSA - 708,070

Chicago's MSA overall - 9,461,105

percentage of chicago's MSA in NW indiana - 7.5%

no, the geographic comparison is still mostly apples to apples. chicago didn't grow into the second largest metropolis in the nation because it could expand into the land of NW indiana and SW michigan. even today, NW indiana's population makes up only a small percentage chicago's MSA. and no part of chicago's MSA (or even CSA) extends into michigan.

4 NW indiana counties in chicago's MSA - 708,070

Chicago's MSA overall - 9,461,105

percentage of chicago's MSA in NW indiana - 7.5%

It would be interesting to look at older county population numbers...even from times before msa was an official designation tool. Was NW Indiana perhaps a much larger percentage of metro Chicago...say before the industrial blight of the 70s and 80s hit? You talk about Chicago as the second largest metro in the US, but it doesn't hold that title anymore and hasn't for quite a long time..therefore maybe it would be more fair to examine Chicago metro numbers from its heyday, rather than from today...

It would be interesting to look at older county population numbers...even from times before msa was an official designation tool. Was NW Indiana perhaps a much larger percentage of metro Chicago...say before the industrial blight of the 70s and 80s hit?

ok, let's look at the numbers. in 1950, the chicago MSA consisted of 7 counties: cook, dupage, lake, mchenry, kane & will counties in illinois and lake county in NW indiana

1950 lake county, IN: 368,152

1950 chicago MSA: 5,495,364

1950 percentage of chicago's MSA in NW indiana: 6.7%


so the percentage of metro chicago living in NW indiana was even smaller in 1950 than it is today.

it's also intersting to look at just cook county. in 1950 it's population was 4,508,792, which means that cook county ALONE accounted for 82% of chicago's 1950 MSA population!

to reiterate, metro chicago did not grow into the nation's second largest metro are because it had the ability to expand into NW indiana land. NW indiana played only a minor role in the explosive growth of chicago into one of the nation's premier metro areas.






You talk about Chicago as the second largest metro in the US, but it doesn't hold that title anymore and hasn't for quite a long time.
uhhh, i'm well aware of that and pointed out the fact that LA surpassed chicagoland in the second half of the 20th century.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/137673863.html

I think this was overloooked.
I didnt know about this location for stone creek coffee.
Ive been out of the loop as far as not being in milwaukee too often.

That is an insanely absurd statement. Where did you get the impression that the suburbs are more educated than the people in the city. I'm almost certain that's false. As for being wealthier, I can understand where you'd get that impression, because the houses are bigger out there. But there are thousands of people living in the city in not-quite-as large victorian homes that are worth more than twice the value. I would like to get some figures on this (but inevitably it would lead to another pissing match in defining what's "city" and what's "suburban.")

As for the dominance of suburban life in policy decisions...I'm not so sure it will last for much longer. The suburban lifestyle is subsidized by staggering amounts of state and federal funds. We're in a VERY difficult time financially a a global level and in the meantime our governments are trying to cut any and all expenses they have. Of course for now they're leaving gas a road subsidies alone, but they're nearing the edge of the chopping block.


Back to development. I actually approve of the Potawatomi Hotel tower, but agree that it does not attempt to work with it's surroundings in any way.

Here is the data on Milwaukee. Its not pretty, and I would bet every single suburb beats Milwaukee.

Persons below poverty level, percent, 2006-2010 26.3%
Median household income 2006-2010 $35,921
High school graduates, percent of persons age 25+, 2006-2010 80.4%
Bachelor's degree or higher, pct of persons age 25+, 2006-2010 21.0%
Population, 2010 594,833

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/55/5553000.html

Out of 1.5M in the MSA, only 600k live in the city. Granted in Milwaukee county, only 4 out 10 live in the burbs, but when it comes to region, Milwaukee does not have the final say.

Here is the data on Milwaukee. Its not pretty, and I would bet every single suburb beats Milwaukee.

Persons below poverty level, percent, 2006-2010 26.3%
Median household income 2006-2010 $35,921
High school graduates, percent of persons age 25+, 2006-2010 80.4%
Bachelor's degree or higher, pct of persons age 25+, 2006-2010 21.0%
Population, 2010 594,833

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/55/5553000.html

Out of 1.5M in the MSA, only 600k live in the city. Granted in Milwaukee county, only 4 out 10 live in the burbs, but when it comes to region, Milwaukee does not have the final say.

The city and suburbs don't exist in a vacuum, they created & are each a product of one another. Much of the poverty of the Milwaukee metro is in the city of Milwaukee; much of the wealth is in the suburbs. Obviously education is correlated with wealth.

With that said, you can't buy class & your post shows it.

Ive always been a city person....
It makes me especially more a city person when there is more animosity TOWARDS the city, which you definitely see in the Milwaukee Metro Area.
I didnt live in MKE area very long but we still have our duplex in Riverwest,
it felt good to live in the city and put money INTO the city and I was working in Waukesha. Definitely a weird vibe among the suburbians there, harsher and more insular than Chicago. Which ofcourse just drove me more to support MKE. A very underrated city that is still improving despite that negativity.... The future of the area is still IN the city even in the MKE metro area.

The housing stock in general in MKE is better than Madison!!!
Many old Mansions and large houses in cold spring park for example, I talked to someone who lived in the burbs of MKE and worked in the private school nearby(cant remember the name of it) and he was completely oblivious of how cool the area is (yes its not perfect, but many cool streets and houses around there). Its as if some people cant even recognize how awesome and cool MKE is because of insane fear of inner city poverty and crime.

Federal officials have given the green light for the Milwaukee Streetcar project to move forward, a city official said Monday.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/streetcar-project-gets-federal-backing-go40g8r-138346289.html

About time, wish Milwaukee can somehow get its hands on more federal funds to extend this thing to Brady Street and the Pabst Brewery development. Save yourself a lot of grieve and avoid reading the comment section to this story. It just goes to show that any kind of positive Milwaukee gets will always be looked down upon by those who hail from the western suburbs. Its funny though, they call the streetcar wasteful and say that it should pay for itself yet those same critics don't say a word about the extraordinary amount of money spent on the highways and interstate.

Mandel Group will be moving forward with the second phase of The North End development project in February. Financing for the project was finalized as WHEDA completed the sale of $54.6 million of tax-exempt Midwest Disaster Area bonds. These funds will go to provide funding for The North End Phase II, as well as funding the “LightHorse | 4041″ mixed-use development in Shorewood. Additionally, Mandel Group directly placed $7.75 million in tax-exempt bonds to complete the financing for the project. “This was one of the more involved financings we’ve completed thus far, indicative of the challenges with capital formation in the real estate space” commented David A. Pavela, Chief Financial Officer for Mandel Group, Inc.

http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2012/01/30/the-north-end-phase-ii-to-break-ground-in-february/ (renders at the site)


I think this north End development is probably one of the more interesting things happening in Milwaukee right now. That area around the river has been blossoming and I for see much more development around the river corridor (especially that gaping hole that is on water and Pearson). Does anyone have any info an that proposed office tower and Marcus cinema that is supposed be built across the street from a.j bombers? I think that this area of the park east corridor will be the first to be fully developed (whose to say that if the Kohls HQ does get put downtown that it wouldn't be closer to water street as opposed to near the stadium). Any who, sometimes i'm amazed that so much construction is even happening in Milwaukee. Hopefully more unique developments comes our way (and that staybridge hotel finally gets completed).

Mandel Group will be moving forward with the second phase of The North End development project in February.http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2012/01/30/the-north-end-phase-ii-to-break-ground-in-february/ (renders at the site)

http://urbanmilwaukee.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/FINAL-1-655x364.jpg http://urbanmilwaukee.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/FINAL-3-655x364.jpg

Federal officials have given the green light for the Milwaukee Streetcar project to move forward, a city official said Monday.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/streetcar-project-gets-federal-backing-go40g8r-138346289.html

About time, wish Milwaukee can somehow get its hands on more federal funds to extend this thing to Brady Street and the Pabst Brewery development. Save yourself a lot of grieve and avoid reading the comment section to this story. It just goes to show that any kind of positive Milwaukee gets will always be looked down upon by those who hail from the western suburbs. Its funny though, they call the streetcar wasteful and say that it should pay for itself yet those same critics don't say a word about the extraordinary amount of money spent on the highways and interstate.

It's hard to take very seriously criticism from the people that have made hundreds, if not thousands of decisions in their lives to contribute to the most wildly unsustainable, costly experiment this country has ever undertaken --- the suburbs. Thankfully, angry middle-aged white men aren't the future of Milwaukee. The younger generations get the streetcar. I've cast off any hope of enlightening those that haven't bothered to experience life outside their bubble, or their AM radio for that matter.

This story should have never really been news either way as it was procedural in nature and completely anticipated. Of course the JS crafts a headline to drive the nuts to their website.

On a brighter note, it was refreshing to be in the crowd last night to take in "Remarkable Milwaukee." I hope the conversation started last night continues in meaningful ways. And I sincerely hope that it moves past conversation into actionable plans. Anyone else here attend?

The North End project looks fantastic. I like it a lot. It fits in just about perfectly next to the River.

What was Remarkable Milwaukee? A community discussion? A video? I'll try to Google it to find out - as it sounds interesting - but as a commenter from out of state, I'm not familiar with it. Can any of you who participated provide more insight?

Just looked it up. Wow. Mary Louise Schumacher's story from the 1/27/12 JS goes on and on. Haven't started reading it -- but from just skimming, it clearly has a ton of information and lots of interesting ideas to consider.

Here's part of the intro (for others like me who have no idea what Remarkable Milwaukee is all about):

"But what if a discussion about the future of Milwaukee was more like a cocktail party, with a well-concocted mix of personalities perched on couches and sipping spirits? What if it were like great theater, a performance on a gorgeous, old stage?

"Remarkable Milwaukee," an event planned for Monday at the Pabst Theater, promises to be all of those things, a humane, fun and substantive discussion about the city.

More than a dozen people - restaurateurs, artists, activists and civic leaders - have been invited to sit in a living room-like setting on stage and share big ideas about the future of our built environment. They’ll get to float fantasy projects, the building, restoration, rehabilitation and infrastructure projects they’d like to see if there were no restrictions or financial constraints.

What a great way to make an end run around the political structure and the gloom-and-doom talk about economic realities to entertain, if briefly, ambitious possibilities."

Link to full story: http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/entertainment/138205484.html

And here are Mary Louise's comments from after the event:

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/entertainment/138376279.html

Milwaukee's Downtown named among Top Ten in U.S. -

Top 10 American Downtowns (http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-american-downtowns.php)

^^ Congrats (again). (This was posted two pages back, by HaletotheZoo back on post # 6829). :)

^^ Congrats (again). (This was posted two pages back, by HaletotheZoo back on post # 6829). :)

Sorry. I must have missed it.

http://media.jsonline.com/images/KOHLS05G.jpg

A City of Milwaukee affiliate has secretly purchased downtown's Sydney Hih building, a move that could pave the way for Kohl's Corp. to move its headquarters from Menomonee Falls to the Park East redevelopment area.

The affiliate, created by the Milwaukee Economic Development Corp., bought the vacant, dilapidated building to make it easier for future development to occur on Sydney Hih's block, said city Development Commissioner Rocky Marcoux.

The rest of that block, bordered by W. McKinley and W. Juneau avenues, and N. Old World 3rd and N. 4th streets, is vacant and owned by Milwaukee County.

Real estate industry sources have said Kohl's executives might soon decide whether to keep the headquarters complex in Menomonee Falls, or relocate all or portions of those operations to downtown Milwaukee.

Those sources say the proposed downtown site is in the Park East area west of the Milwaukee River, and includes the Sydney Hih block.

Marcoux declined to comment when asked if the Sydney Hih building purchase was tied to a possible Kohl's headquarters development. He declined to answer other questions about the potential project.

The company has declined to discuss its headquarters plans until it makes an official announcement.

http://www.jsonline.com/business/park-east-could-be-in-play-for-kohls-vq42b60-138727269.html

Exciting about Kohls....but I really hope they don't tear down the Sydney Hih. I know its not the most amazing look structure, and it sure has seen better days, but I just have really become attached to it.

If anything, I hope they at least do with it like they did for the Mariott building on Wisconsin, and save the facade. I know that was met with some... hostility...when that came about, but I honestly think it was the best that could have been done, and if its between that and getting rid of Sydney Hih alltogether, I think I would prefer the facade saving.

If they are buying only that plot of land though, while quite a large parcel of land, it sounds like they won't be taking the larger ones further west, so maybe that means a more vertically oriented building than some were thinking was possible?

I'm generally for historic renovation, but I don't see that there is much to save with Sidney Hih. That building has really been worn down & used up. If at least most of it was recently occupied or had been maintained properly... I could see keeping it. It's just a mash of probably 4-5 buildings with low-quality additions tacked on over the years.

If they rebuilt it... it would basically involve disassembling the entire building & rebuilding it in place. A structure like city hall deserve that treatment, but not Sidney Hih.

Personally I really like the Sidney Hih, and wish a good re-use for it could be found. That said whatever it takes to get Kohl's in the Park East..

How has this not been mentioned here? What other city would have a dept of development that would work so hard against this?

Chris


A $35 million development that would bring 275 student apartments to Milwaukee's Riverwest neighborhood has run into strong opposition at the city Plan Commission.

The commission Monday unanimously recommended against rezoning a site, now occupied by a warehouse at 634 E. Keefe Ave., to accommodate the apartments.

The recommendation now goes to the Common Council's Zoning, Neighborhoods and Development Committee, unless the proposal is withdrawn by the developer.

Trinitas Ventures LLC, based in West Lafayette, Ind., proposed the four-story building, which would house up to 750 people.

The apartments would be primarily marketed to students at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, although the units would be available to non-students. The proposed site is about 2 miles from campus, and Trinitas would provide a shuttle service to UWM and other locations.

Trinitas and others supporting the proposal say the apartments would create property tax revenue, construction jobs, and help improve Riverwest. The current building is obsolete for industrial purposes, said Chris Coakley, who owns the property.

Neighborhood residents raised concerns about the traffic, competition for on-street parking spaces, and noise that they say would be generated at the apartments.

Also, executives from nearby manufacturers, In-Place Machining Co. and Tulip Corp., said they were worried about residents complaining about smells and noise from their operations.

That echoes concerns from manufacturers near a building at 1560 W. Pierce St., which has been proposed for apartments. That proposal, to create 72 apartments for lower-income families, was approved last month by the Common Council.

@olsonc76 A couple of things... First, the City Plan Commission (appointed board which makes a recommendation) is not the Department of City Development (the actually city department...planners and such).. Second, for better or worse I'd wager many cities would struggle with the proposal. Not that I agree with it, but that's just how it is.

@twoaday I understand the the Plan Commision is an advisory board. My concern is how DCD has decided to remain behind closed doors. The project has challenges and merits that are worth discussing and DCD apparently does not value shareholder imput. That is my main concern.

@olsonc76 I guess you need to give an example. It is my understanding there were multiple neighborhood meetings (I assume they were staffed as most meetings like this are), dcd presented at city plan (where stakeholder input was given) and will at znd (standard), and the design's changed dramatically during the process at the request of DCD (the newest versions were shown at CPC), in an attempt to make the project acceptable to stakeholders. So I guess I don't know what you mean?

No this project won't get approved because of two things. A belief by many on the Common Council that we [Milwaukee] needs to preserve Industrial land. And the fact the neighbors don't want it (that many students).

Now I don't agree with this vote or logic in regards to this project, but that's what happened.

^^^^ Some in MKE arent embracing change too well. Industry isnt the future for the most part and its why MKE is more depressed than Madison. Too bad. Because this development would help out RIverwest and the city alot.:bash:

I'm not so sure that proposed (its been cancelled last time I read) student housing development would have been a good idea over there in that part of riverwest. I can see some of the arguments people make for the Student housing, but in reality UWM is trying to shed is commuter school image. It is trying very hard to have more students live in and around its campus. Putting 250 students in that part of riverwest would have detracted from that. I dont see why trinitas development couldnt have just proposed something closer to the two new dorms on north ave. Or directly next to the pcik and save on that empty land just west of the river.

People will cry foul on this but it really is just for the better. Plus, i'm pretty sure that UWM is gonna open up the columbia st marys campus to student housing and other needs eventually.

On thing people havent been talking about is what if UWM was to get a footabll stadium? If they did the only place they could realistically put it is in the riverworks area. Some places like the Mcdonalds, and the Walmart have recently renovated their structures. This is just me speaking so there are no rumors of a stadium other than the new AD saying he wants UWM to have a football team. But I can honestly see a College football stadium going up in that area (and a huge plus to this is a probably Milwaukee Mls team would have a place to play too:)).

No this project won't get approved because of ...A belief by many on the Common Council that we [Milwaukee] needs to preserve Industrial land.


Don't know if that observation is correct or not, but doesn't Milwaukee still have many many undeveloped acres in the Land-bank it set aside for industrial development long ago in the far northwest quadrant of the city?

Riverwest dorm project dropped, but developer may return

http://urbanismnews.com/wi/milwaukee/riverwest-dorm-project-dropped-but-developer-may-return

East Library Redevelopment Update and Estimated Schedule

http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2012/02/09/east-library-redevelopment-update-and-estimated-schedule/


I'm glad the Trinitas proposal didn't get approved. When the developer tries again next round they should know they need to build it closer to the Campus or on North ave (in close proximity to the two dorms there). If they do that then Milwaukee will gladly let them build their apartment complex (as long as it looks better too).

As for the East side library, I'm starting to really warm up to it. Is it the best design for that spot? No, but now that I look at the new renders I think it will fit in just fine there. I'm also glad that the building will have height and lots of windows (seeing into the library). The addition of some retail space is a plus too. Hopefully This development influences other developers to build something where Pizza Man used to be. Anything built on that local wouldn't need parking stalls if the East side library has plenty to go around.

@looksee I'm not sure about the Northwest side, but yes there are areas of the city that continue to be zoned industrial (valley, 30th st, riverworks) and the Common Council has been very concerned about too many becoming non-industrial.

I just want to point out the obvious regarding the quick & decisive defeat of the Riverwest private dorm.

Aldermanic election are April 3rd.

Even if the aldermen in the 2 districts got a great project together & addressed all the concerns, there would still be a vocal minority that would challenge him in the election.

We know Trinitas will be back, hopefully with a better location. This development isn't lost and the delay will probably make for a better final outcome.

But I can honestly see a College football stadium going up in that area (and a huge plus to this is a probably Milwaukee Mls team would have a place to play too:)).

how about a football stadium at parkeast?

@looksee I'm not sure about the Northwest side, but yes there are areas of the city that continue to be zoned industrial (valley, 30th st, riverworks) and the Common Council has been very concerned about too many becoming non-industrial.
Found the answer to my own question here: http://city.milwaukee.gov/ImageLibrary/Groups/cityDCD/planning/plans/Northwest/plan/NorthwestSideMarketAnalysis.pdf (from Jan. 2007)

page 32:
"Future industrial development on the Northwest Side is likely to be limited by lack of available
sites and future competition from other parts of the City. ...During the past 15 years, there were few competitive
products available in terms of greenfield industrial sites within the City of Milwaukee. This
resulted in nearly 85 percent of the City’s industrial development, in terms of land area,
occurring within the Northwest Side. ...
The Northwest Side has the potential to continue capturing approximately 80 to 85
percent of total industrial development in the City. This translates into roughly 24 to 34 acres of
land to be absorbed annually on the Northwest Side in the short run.
In the long term,... As new land, such as the Menomonee Valley Industrial
Center, is slowly added to the inventory of available industrial land in the City, ... the Northwest Side’s overall share of industrial
development is likely to decrease by half to around 40 to 45 percent ...However, as the land supply in the Northwest Side starts to decline, the total
absorption rate and associated capture rates in the Northwest Side are also likely to decline even
further."

There is much more information in the study, but relatively small, isolated parcels such as the one under discussion would seem to play virtually no role in the city's future industrial plans.

@ mohammed wong

A football stadium in park east would make very little sense, especially since it'd be for the UWM panthers. The cell has trouble attracting students there because it is so far away from campus. Not to mention that Park East would be terribly suited to handle the tremendous parking needs of a 50,000+ seat football stadium. No, a stadium would almost have to go in the riverworks area were there is plenty of space to build a stadium.

I think that expectations of a "50,000+ seat football stadium" for a UWM football team that doesn't even exist is a bit optimistic.

I agree that the Riverworks neighborhood would be much better suited for an 8-10,000 seat football / soccer complex though.

@ mohammed wong

A football stadium in park east would make very little sense, especially since it'd be for the UWM panthers. The cell has trouble attracting students there because it is so far away from campus. Not to mention that Park East would be terribly suited to handle the tremendous parking needs of a 50,000+ seat football stadium. No, a stadium would almost have to go in the riverworks area were there is plenty of space to build a stadium.

OK then heres hoping for a panther stadium in riverwest!!!!:cheers::cheers::cheers:

The culture clash between the jocks and the hipsters would be interesting!!!!
:lol::lol:

Whats the cell?

Well if UWM did get a football team i'd assume it'd be a D-2 (or whatever its now called) team first. Even then it would still attract a large number of students to go to the games just for the culture tied to it. But we have to remember, UWM has 30,000+ students and since the chancellor has made it mandatory that freshman and sophmores have to live on campus the university is only gonna get more tied together (shedding its commuter school image). Its why the cell won't work anymore for the men's basketball team and a new arena will be built on campus. Its for this same reason that a football stadium would need to be built closer to the campus and would need to house a tens of thousands of people (not to mention that Marquette would likely use the stadium too for football).

Plus, UWM is due to to uncap their enrollment, the football program will likely move up to a d-1 in time, and the Milwaukee metro region will finally have a football stadium to see a couple of college teams play at. Those reasons alone would make a 50,000+ probably the best choice. (This is all just hopeful thinking, I know eventually UWM will get a football team and stadium to play at but that won't be for quite some time unless some big donors come up to bat in the near future).

Oh and the Cell is the U.S cellar arena (formerly the Mecca). I suppose if Milwaukee does get a new basketball arena downtown then either the Cell or the Bradley center would be demolished (hopefully its the Bradley center; that building is just about as awful as architecture can get).

That would be FCS or the division formally known as Division 1-AA

how about a football stadium at parkeast?

how about a 20,000 seat MLS soccer stadium that could be used by UWM and Marquette for american football as well.

how about a 20,000 seat MLS soccer stadium that could be used by UWM and Marquette for american football as well.

+1

http://www.jsonline.com/business/kohls-says-no-to-downtown-rn46va8-139339443.html

I have to be honest, this is pretty disappointing. I was really hoping this would be the project that would have finally made tearing down the Park East worthwhile. Sadly, it will sit largely vacant for years to come. Milwaukee has done some great things in the past ten years, but just can't seem to take it to the next level. I'm curious as to what was offered. The next nail in the coffin would be if Northwestern Mutual were to tear down their building and move all of their jobs to Franklin.

Sadly for urban enthusiasts, this is a more profitable solution. Build low and wide and pave a few acres of forest with asphalt. :bash:

Man, sometimes it seems that this city just can't win for losing. This is really disappointing. I guess if there's a silver lining, its that the city won't be on the hook for millions of dollars in corporate welfare to a company that shouldn't need any incentive to locate their headquarters here. I'd also like to know what was offered.

And as always, if you haven't read the article yet, avoid the comments section. There are only 4-5 on there right now, but it's already the typical non-constructive provincial BS that passes for discussion there. Depressing.

Man, sometimes it seems that this city just can't win for losing. This is really disappointing. I guess if there's a silver lining, its that the city won't be on the hook for millions of dollars in corporate welfare to a company that shouldn't need any incentive to locate their headquarters here. I'd like to know what was offered.

And as always, if you haven't read the article yet, avoid the comments section. There are only 4-5 on there right now, but it's already the typical non-constructive provincial BS that passes for discussion there. Depressing.

They didn't seem too bad yet.... I guess we just need to look at this area to be an opportunity for a new arena someday. It's sometimes interesting to look at the comment history for some of the usernames and how they are cynical and only B****.

I never figured how Kohls employees would want to move downtown, or why the move makes sense for Kohls. The only things Milwaukee really offered was basically a free building, after all the incentives, and potential access to more emplyees in the south side of the city. Most Kohls employees must live somewhere closer to the Falls than downtown, so their commmunte would now mean going down 45, through the zoo interchange, and 94 east in to downtown. This is one of the worst commutes possible in the city. Plus factor in rebuilding the zoo, and its much worse. Kohls is a suburban retailer, not urban, and it makes sense for the hq to be in the burbs. I always thought it would cheapest and easiest to expand on their current asphalt wonderland, and the Falls seem willing to help as much as possible with wherever they do end up.

@usbmfa

I agree with most of what you posted. I think too many people were more excited of the possible spur in development due to a Kohl's move downtown rather than the Kohl's HQ itself. Main point is it would have been wrong for the area. When Will Milwaukee stop settling for mediocrity? I know the city is hardly is in a place to demand anything but the very least it could do is put up a fight. It seems like the city is willing to accept anything that gets thrown its way.

Ugly mediocre Marriott hotel next to a skyscraper:check
Ugly Potawatomi casino hotel:check
League of ugly high rises on the east side:check
The Bradley center: lol check
stupid unnecessary MSOE parking behemoth:check
And many other buildings that realistically should have been revised to something better.

The Park East land should either be built in accordance to the original plan the city and county have drafted, saved for a new stadium(with the plan for kind of like the Bradley center entertainment district) or maybe make a focal point of something new (like a park surround by residential buildings ala central park). I'd rather the city focus on making Wisconsin ave better (catalyst anyone), or resurrecting the original plan for the "Pabst city". One thing is for certain now, Milwaukee really showed its hand and the city leaders have to know that Northwestern Mutual is going to shake the city down for all its worth to keep most of its jobs in the city rather than out in Franklin.

Now I'm just waiting for the other major bad news [Ryan Braun] shoe to drop...

I never figured how Kohls employees would want to move downtown, or why the move makes sense for Kohls. The only things Milwaukee really offered was basically a free building, after all the incentives, and potential access to more emplyees in the south side of the city. Most Kohls employees must live somewhere closer to the Falls than downtown, so their commmunte would now mean going down 45, through the zoo interchange, and 94 east in to downtown. This is one of the worst commutes possible in the city. Plus factor in rebuilding the zoo, and its much worse. Kohls is a suburban retailer, not urban, and it makes sense for the hq to be in the burbs. I always thought it would cheapest and easiest to expand on their current asphalt wonderland, and the Falls seem willing to help as much as possible with wherever they do end up.

I completely disagree with this sentiment. You have to look beyond the company's suburban retail locations and look at the talent they're trying to lure. In terms of median age, Kohls employees are very young. Mid twenties to thirties and well educated. Many of these people already live in the City. Couple that with the fact that they're trying to attract talent from the coasts. They put this talent up at places like the Iron Horse to make a good impression. Then they're driven to Anywhere, USA --- pretty much in a cornfield surrounded by some of the most bland, cul-de-sac-beige housing you can imagine.

This is the retail industry. Retail is not an suburb/exurb business.

This is a big swing and a miss not only for the City of Milwaukee, but for Kohls' ability to attract the best and brightest down the road. Whether anyone likes it or not, the future is not out in the burbs. The young work force of the future, and now, wants to live and work in a vibrant setting. They want culture, they want place, they want restaurants, bars, and entertainment.

Cheapest and easiest does not equate to best long term decision. But that's the world we live in. Cheap and easy represents probably 90% of the throw-away places we've built outside of city centers. It's a wildly unsustainable path for both companies and communities.

Still alot of old guys with old ideas running companies like Kohls.
I think MKE is more apt to attract and more likely grow younger companies like internet startup companies or some other new idea company.

Kohls is okay but it never struck me as an urban type company.
MKE is still going to do well no matter what the burbians and the narrowminded believe.

MKE has the Moderne!!!! Its a good start, that and the Pabst complex are a good start, Park East isnt going anywhere and will slowly be developed by people who actually want to be there.

MKE does attract people from smaller towns and the burbs, atleast the interesting people.:cheers::cheers:

100 million dollars to move the same company with the same work force aprox 15 miles? Does not make good financial sense for the city of Milwaukee tax payers. Taxpayers should be thanking Kohl's for taking the high road, doing the right thing, and saying no to this money. I did not realize Milwaukee had this kind of cash incentives around. Why not use it to lure another out of state company (Illinois) to Milwaukee.

Now, if this same company was re-locating from another state and all the employees were new to the urban area, that is another story. Obviously even a 100 million dollar incentive was problematic for this corporate headquarters to consider taking to sway their decision. Was it a tax concern over what the Falls or Waukesha County has to offer long-term? Milwaukee is a great city but this is just not their win. Other wins will be forthcoming. Lets debate this in a business like manner.

100 million dollars to move the same company with the same work force aprox 15 miles? Does not make good financial sense for the city of Milwaukee tax payers. Taxpayers should be thanking Kohl's for taking the high road, doing the right thing, and saying no to this money. I did not realize Milwaukee had this kind of cash incentives around. Why not use it to lure another out of state company (Illinois) to Milwaukee.

Now, if this same company was re-locating from another state and all the employees were new to the urban area, that is another story. Obviously even a 100 million dollar incentive was problematic for this corporate headquarters to consider taking to sway their decision. Was it a tax concern over what the Falls or Waukesha County has to offer long-term? Milwaukee is a great city but this is just not their win. Other wins will be forthcoming. Lets debate this in a business like manner.

It seems you're assuming they aren't looking outside the region. If Milwaukee is out of the running, why haven't they accepted Menomonee Falls' offer?

What state is using the city's offer as a stalking horse bid on Kohls?

It seems you're assuming they aren't looking outside the region. If Milwaukee is out of the running, why haven't they accepted Menomonee Falls' offer?

What state is using the city's offer as a stalking horse bid on Kohls?
Good point Jesse276, this may be at issue too. What would be odd if true would be throwing away their entire work force. A company would typically not do this unless they moved only a portion of the company.

Walking on Government Pier this morning when I heard this terrific roar coming out over the lake to the east. Looked up and there it was..... This gorgeous bird in the sky coming to visit Milwaukee. Took about five shots before it disappeared into the south heading for Mitchell Field....

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/AirForce01-2012.jpg

The president was in Milwaukee to highlight the Master Lock company's decision to relocate jobs back to Milwaukee.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/DSC03313.jpg

That's a good camera Boat, nice shot!

Walking on Government Pier this morning when I heard this terrific roar coming out over the lake to the east. Looked up and there it was..... This gorgeous bird in the sky coming to visit Milwaukee. Took about five shots before it disappeared into the south heading for Mitchell Field....

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/AirForce01-2012.jpg

The president was in Milwaukee to highlight the Master Lock company's decision to relocate jobs back to Milwaukee.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/DSC03313.jpg

:okay: Nicely done, Boatnurd!

There was a discussion on one of the Milwaukee radio stations a few days ago about the current meteoric collapse of the commercial district along Brown Deer Rd around the former Northridge Mall and the city's seeming complete lack of interest in that area's fortunes. Apparently numerous Big Boxes™ in that vicinity, including the Walmart* at 76th/Brown Deer and many other smaller strip plaza stores, have either recently closed or are about to close.

Any thoughts?

:dunno:

Mike

There was a discussion on one of the Milwaukee radio stations a few days ago about the current meteoric collapse of the commercial district along Brown Deer Rd around the former Northridge Mall and the city's seeming complete lack of interest in that area's fortunes. Apparently numerous Big Boxes™ in that vicinity, including the Walmart* at 76th/Brown Deer and many other smaller strip plaza stores, have either recently closed or are about to close.

Any thoughts?

:dunno:

Mike

Seems we have 100 million dollars to invest in this area now that Kohls has gone cold. Funny our leaders did not envision this before the area became blighted. These are the areas of the city we need to concentrate on.

There was a discussion on one of the Milwaukee radio stations a few days ago about the current meteoric collapse of the commercial district along Brown Deer Rd around the former Northridge Mall and the city's seeming complete lack of interest in that area's fortunes. Apparently numerous Big Boxes™ in that vicinity, including the Walmart* at 76th/Brown Deer and many other smaller strip plaza stores, have either recently closed or are about to close.

Any thoughts?

:dunno:

Mike

I don't typically go up that way, but had to recently. I could not believe how depressing the area was. Short of an economic miracle, the only way to revive it will be a combo of redeveloping and tax credits to lower cost of business and give retail a chance of succeeding. I think the retail will need to be scaled down, since it seems to be moving further in to the burbs and not coming back.

So, for the Northridge area there are a couple types of possible development:

Retail: There will be no retail resurgence, anything built will be to serve the immediate neighborhood. This once was a regional destination with few competitors... that has changed forever & won't be coming back.

Office: It's possible with the large tracts available, but the area can't grow this segment without hitting bottom, which looks to be now. Considering the nearby employees & low cost of business in the area... this would be ideal for back-office operations or call center type positions.

Industrial: This is probably the best choice for the area. There is limited traffic, high road capacity, all necessary utilities are already in place & access to 2 interstates. There are many potential employees in the city/burbs within commuting distance.

Housing: I don't see this as being a location of choice for many people. The area is affordable but it's not really near anything. Also, the buildings are showing their age & not in a historic sense.

Transit: There are huge areas that are underdeveloped in the area, this is even ignoring all the failing or marginally used retail properties. Currently, there isn't a big traffic problem but there are access problems for many potential customers/employees via transit. These are the same people that actually want to work/shop in the area.

There needs to be an investment in real (read useful routes & headways) transit in the area, without just having marginal extensions serving the area... as currently is the case. Without a dedicated funding source for MCTS, I don't see any expansions likely.


As for the big box development that left the Northridge area, I'm not sure why the city isn't courting this developement for the retail area along East Capitol Drive in Milwaukee. That area has a huge amount of underused & obsolete buildings but has access to a large potential customer base. Besides, many locals already drive out to Woodman's, Target, Lowes, on & on & on... at least those jobs would be a little more local & transit accessible. There are literally no places available in the near Northshore for many of these retailers, if the city could force the state to have a coherent Capitol Drive interchange designed when I-43 is rebuilt, this could spur alot of development.

The problem with building anything on east capital drive is its proximity to the "hood". I work on east capital so i'm quite aware of how bad things are there. Robberies are very common and the area in general looks bombed out and depleted. Plus, I seriously think a huge chunk of east capital should be saved for a possible College football stadium and new student housing (just my opinion).

As for Northridge, yeah that area is quite depressing. There isn't much the city can do because it simply doesn't have enough money to spend on renewal projects. Plus, even if Milwaukee had a sales tax increase to help fund new development it would be shot down by the governor as it was before.

There was a discussion on one of the Milwaukee radio stations a few days ago about the current meteoric collapse of the commercial district along Brown Deer Rd around the former Northridge Mall and the city's seeming complete lack of interest in that area's fortunes. Apparently numerous Big Boxes™ in that vicinity, including the Walmart* at 76th/Brown Deer and many other smaller strip plaza stores, have either recently closed or are about to close.

Any thoughts?

:dunno:

Mike

The closings of these big box stores was somewhat expected in my opinion. Best Buy has newer stores in more desirable locations at Mayfair, Menomonee Falls, and Bayside. All of them right off the freeway making the store at Northridge pointless. Circuit City are all out of business. Lowes wasn't getting much business there due to competition with Menards. The one that on the surface seems most suprising is Wal-Mart but they are currently building a bigger, newer store on Silver Spring Dr, closer to I-45. They are also building another store in Menomonee Falls.

As somebody who lives near this area, I don't think it's cut out to be a retail destination. Too much competition from Menomonee Falls, Mayfair, Mequon/Bayside, 124th & Capitol (Brookfield) and Bayshore. Northridge/Brown Deer Rd. is cut off from the freeway and most people in the area with cars would gladly drive 10 extra minutes to the locations I just mentioned. With that being said, I don't think the area is as terrible as it's being made out. There is still a Target, Menards, American TV, Pick N' Save, Dunhams, Toys R Us, and Half Price Books anchoring retail. Numerous restaurants and other smaller chains still operation as well too. People need to realize that it will never be Northridge in it's glory days due to competition/location and the demographics of the area. I see people on JSOnline asking for an IKEA there but those sorts of stores will never, ever build there. There are alot of lower income apartments (& housing project) surrounding Brown Deer Rd., thus the sorts of businesses there to cater to them--ie, Cricket Wireless, Dollar Tree, and fast food restaurants.

The best bet for the area is to do what Marcoux suggested and develop Northridge more into an industrial park. The area just to the South of Brown Deer Road is probally one of the most successful industrial areas in the city of Milwaukee. That area between Brown Deer Rd, 91st, Good Hope Rd, and 76st is pretty much a giant light industrial park

Baker Tilly moving to downtown from Honey Creek

The Baker Tilly accounting firm will move to downtown's U.S. Bank Center from Honey Creek Corporate Center, an office park on Milwaukee's west side, in December. In April, it was announced that Baker Tilly had signed a letter of intent to lease about 60,000 square feet at the proposed Washington Square office building. Washington Square would be built on what is now a surface parking lot south of E. Mason St., between N. Jackson and N. Jefferson streets. At that time, the firm's executives hoped to move downtown by June 2013. But that project has stalled.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/139694743.html


Nooooooo! That new development would've been great for downtown. Were was the city leadership in getting this project off the ground? I mean this is great for the U.S bank building but Downtown could use any new skyscraper it can get. This is a missed oppurtunity :(

Forget even thinking about saving Sydney Hih. Aricle in JS this morning says that it will be demolished and the failed bid of Kohls was not a factor in this decision.

Link to the article:

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/139732253.html

That makes me so angry. The SydneyHih buildings are completely sound and in (relatively) fair shape. It drives me crazy that this country is so ready to tear down viable vacant buildings for no reason other than have a pretty site that might look nice for some investors (it won't, as I'm pretty sure the SydneyHih wasn't the reason the Park East has been undeveloped for a decade). Milwaukee's poverty rate is closing in on %30, don't you think all that brick mortar and glass could go to better use than a landfill?

Milwaukee has a serious lack of creativity. It has always chosen the safe option for short term benefits and it will cost the city dearly in the future.

That makes me so angry. The SydneyHih buildings are completely sound and in (relatively) fair shape. It drives me crazy that this country is so ready to tear down viable vacant buildings for no reason other than have a pretty site that might look nice for some investors (it won't, as I'm pretty sure the SydneyHih wasn't the reason the Park East has been undeveloped for a decade). Milwaukee's poverty rate is closing in on %30, don't you think all that brick mortar and glass could go to better use than a landfill?

Milwaukee has a serious lack of creativity. It has always chosen the safe option for short term benefits and it will cost the city dearly in the future.

Totally agree CGII. I know many look at this building as an eyesore, but I love it's funky character. More than that, I love its fascinating history. Some of the greatest late 80's, early 90's bands made their way through the basement bar (The Unicorn) while the upper floors served as rehearsal space for many a great Milwaukee band.

Beyond the history, I love the density and the solid materials. I could see an argument being made for the demolition of the shoddier west additions, but the main brick building really should stay. A developer with some vision and know how could revive the building into something fun and uniquely Milwaukee. Instead, we'll probably get another EIFS-clad piece of crap like the Aloft next door.

Once these historic buildings are gone, they're gone for good. And with the vast amounts of land available for development in the Park East, it seems silly just to tear the building down with no plan in place for its replacement. Look no further than the MANY surface parking lots that make up Wisconsin, 2nd, and 3rd to understand what demolished buildings become when no immediate plans for succession are in place.

I don't see the value for the Sidney Hih buildings. Bring them down & split the block into 4 parcels.

I don't see the value for the Sidney Hih buildings. Bring them down & split the block into 4 parcels.

This to me is one of the major issues with the Park East development plan. The Sidney Hih site won't likely be parceled into 4 properties. It will be torn down and packaged as a super-block, much like the rest of the land. The worst parts of our city are super-block developments --- much of the land west of the river. The irony is, it sits next to one of the city's nicer streets in Old World 3rd. Why is it nice? Small, human-scaled development with quality materials, a presentation toward the street, and many eye-level details.

I'd much rather see much of the Park East parceled into smaller units. Developers could still buy up multiple properties if something larger were warranted.

Jan Ghel talks about this issue in his book, Cities for People. It's a nice read for any urbanist concerned about building a lively public realm.

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2012/02/22/cre-guide-take-5-dick-lincoln.html

Some good insight into the downtown and first-ring suburb apartment markets..

http://www.biztimes.com/realestateweekly/2012/2/22/lee-will-stay-patient-with-washington-square

“When there is enough critical mass to do the size building we want to do we will go ahead,” Lee said. “We just think the site warrants a building bigger than 150,000 square feet. Baker Tilly was not going to give us the critical mass within the time frame they wanted.”

The elevations and rendering of the Potawatomi Hotel that have been submitted for the Plan Commission meeting on Monday are different than the rendering that initially accompanied the announcement of the hotel.

http://city.milwaukee.gov/ImageLibrary/Groups/cityDCD/planning/cpc/Potawatomi-Zoning/111296ExhibitAcontasof021312.pdf (pages 12-16)

I think it is an improvement over the reddish thing with scattered windows that they showed before.

The elevations and rendering of the Potawatomi Hotel that have been submitted for the Plan Commission meeting on Monday are different than the rendering that initially accompanied the announcement of the hotel.

http://city.milwaukee.gov/ImageLibrary/Groups/cityDCD/planning/cpc/Potawatomi-Zoning/111296ExhibitAcontasof021312.pdf (pages 12-16)

I think it is an improvement over the reddish thing with scattered windows that they showed before.

It does look like an improvement but I hope they go further and make the hotel look truly exceptional. People have to remember, this hotel will stick out down there in the valley so it has to look very good or bust. No worries though, the attention whores Donovan or Bauman will make sure this building goes through a million revisions before they are allowed to even have an agreement with city. (I still believe Kohl and Barrett should go to the tribe and ask them to build a new basketball arena with naming rights in exchange for putting a hotel and an annex to the casino in park east, wishful thinking I know)

http://city.milwaukee.gov/ImageLibrary/Groups/cityDCD/planning/cpc/Potawatomi-Zoning/111296ExhibitAcontasof021312.pdf
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/looksee/scraper/potproposal.jpg

Christ almighty that is an ugly thing. You really think it's an improvement?

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/26790993-mjs_potawatomi.jpg

So in reading the BizTimes article -- it sounds like Godfrey & Kahn is also stepping away from their previously stated agreement to go into the Washington Square project --- at least that's the way I interpreted this line from the article:

"Sources say Godfrey & Kahn has planned to move to a building developed by Irgens. The firms are likely pursuing other options, Lee said."

Sounds like they are looking to work with Irgens -- but in some other development project as they also aren't willing to wait until enough additional tenants are put together to start on the Washington Square project.

that is truly a horrid looking rendering; like a really washed out version of the standard hotel in NYC, look it up if you have a chance. The newer version might work if they're all floor to ceiling windows

Random thought of the day.

The MSOE campus is disjointed and does not fit in to downtown Milwaukee very well. MSOE soccer field is going to go forward. How about Milwaukee county and city work out a long term land swap with MSOE - the park east land east of the river for the MSOE parcels in the street grid to the south and East. MSOE could build its new buildings in the park east. After it moves in to the new buildings, the old buildings in the grid could be raised and sold to developers. They are much more attractive development parcels than park east due to their size, street access and location. In the long run run MSOE would get a much more attractive campus, and the city of Milwaukee would get much better development than taking the first thing that comes along to just fill the park east parcels. Look at the crap Milwaukee took in the super blocks near JVT. If Milwaukee had real leadership, they could make this happen, but since it does not, it will not go beyond this forum.

Poto hotel is ugly. I think they were going for a jagged natural stone look.

Get rid of Sid High, its a piece of junk.

If Milwaukee had real leadership, they could make this happen,

with a modest contribution from you for the reconstruction of MSOE.

(I'd be more than delighted to help with the demolition of one of its buildings in particular btw)
http://download.wapday.com/animation/ccontennt/6242-f/wrecking_ball.gif?__sid=UMZSWNN&lang=en&__mt=w

Poto hotel is ugly. I think they were going for a jagged natural stone look.


The thing is in such an absurd location, I kind of wish they had gone all out in a vulgar Vegas sort of way; not worry about clashing with anything, just be showy, wrap it with miles of neon and brighten up the Valley. Keep everyone's eyes off the nearby grubbiness.

that is truly a horrid looking rendering; like a really washed out version of the standard hotel in NYC

You ain't kidding:

http://www.architonic.com/aisht/the-standard-new-york-polshek-partnership-architects-llp/5100307
http://image.architonic.com/imgArc/project-1/4/5204927/Polshek-The-Standard-03.jpghttp://image.architonic.com/imgArc/project-1/4/5204927/Polshek-The-Standard-02.jpg

This new render of the Potowatomi hotel looks like something built during late 60's to 70's

Christ almighty that is an ugly thing. You really think it's an improvement?


I was actually thinking of this elevation when I thought it was an improvement. But, I agree that the rendering is pretty ugly. The rendering itself is of poorer quality than the first one that was released. I guess we'll see what the plan commission has to say. I would think Whitney Gould might have an opinion on this one.

http://city.milwaukee.gov/ImageLibrary/Groups/cityDCD/planning/cpc/Potawatomi-Zoning/111296ExhibitAcontasof021312.pdf
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7046/6930282591_b9e440e474_b.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/Untitled.jpg

Christ almighty that is an ugly thing. You really think it's an improvement?

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/26790993-mjs_potawatomi.jpg
I think it's a definate improvement upon the rendering you just posted, which is absolutly horrible. Still, for a casino there should be a bit more glitz or pazaz but for a regular hotel I do like the design of the newer rendering.

FWIW, the night renderings look considerably better than the daytime exterior renderings. I can't find any images online, but during the council meeting earlier this week, they displayed several night-time shots of the hotel and it looked much better with the blue-green light glowing from all the windows. Maybe someone else can find a nighttime rendering to post on here...

FWIW, the night renderings look considerably better than the daytime exterior renderings. ... it looked much better with the blue-green light glowing from all the windows.
Yeah, but will 100% of the rooms always be occupied with 100% of their lights turned on?

Now, if all the windows were outlined in blue-green neon...

sounds like some apartments are being planned for the Park East...

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/blog/real_estate/2012/02/curto-plans-mid-year-construction.html

sounds like some apartments are being planned for the Park East...

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/blog/real_estate/2012/02/curto-plans-mid-year-construction.html

I just read this part of the article:

"Curto's latest plan for the Park East Square project includes 85 apartments, 14,600 square feet of retail space and 246 parking spaces, according to his letter to the county board."

Wow, that is alot of parking & not alot of apartments/retail for that size site. Unless there will be a 2nd phase, this sounds like another dud. I doubt this would reach 3 stories if it takes up the entire parcel.

Anyone know any more details about this?

http://www.biztimes.com/realestateweekly/2010/1/27/racm-approves-bonds-for-rscs-park-east-project-spring-groundbreaking-planned

This is a link to I believe the most current rendering

http://www.loopnet.com/xNet/MainSite/Listing/Profile/Profile.aspx?LID=17526057

And I believe this is just the first phase, so I believe the garage will support multiple phases.

^^^ I like the first rendering much more-- the second, apparently more recent one, is yawn-worthy. It also doesn't very accurately depict the significant slope of the land this plot is located upon.

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/print-edition/2012/03/02/icc-close-to-deal-on-3rd-ward-project.html

ICC close to deal on 3rd Ward project

12-acre parking lot slated for mixed use

So what is more exciting? The possible ICC development and other potential developments in the third ward or Park East? What has more people excited?

So what is more exciting? The possible ICC development and other potential developments in the third ward or Park East? What has more people excited?

Park East. I feel that with the recent influx in apartments (Moderene, North End) that this may pave way for bigger projects such as the movie theater they discussed previously.

http://www.wisn.com/entertainment/22336216/detail.html

Park East. I feel that with the recent influx in apartments (Moderene, North End) that this may pave way for bigger projects such as the movie theater they discussed previously.

http://www.wisn.com/entertainment/22336216/detail.html

speaking of, anyone know the status of the Marcus proposal?

speaking of, anyone know the status of the Marcus proposal?

If you are referring to their Park East Project, I think it might be dead, but it sounds like they are working on something in the Third Ward with the ICC so that could be their new project.

This (http://www.renewthevalley.org/media/mediafile_attachments/08/158-2012springsummercoverfeature.pdf) is pretty cool. It's about the Hank Aaron trail.

It is posted on the Menominee Valley Partners free website. I'd like to post a picture or two, but I'm not seeing how to do it with a PDF.

If you are referring to their Park East Project, I think it might be dead, but it sounds like they are working on something in the Third Ward with the ICC so that could be their new project.

The park east project is pretty much dead from what I've heard. Parking was the biggest issue in building a downtown theater. The ICC project makes much more sense as there is ample parking near the Summerfest grounds.

Fascinating article about Barry Mandel...

http://www.insidemilwaukee.com/Article/392012-HeBuiltThisCity

Fascinating article about Barry Mandel...

http://www.insidemilwaukee.com/Article/392012-HeBuiltThisCity
I actually remember him as a tiny little kid, must have been 1 or 2 years younger than us, living next door to a childhood friend of mine.

Even back then I knew that someday ... naw, had no idea. He was just a friendly, curious little guy who wandered over to see what we were playing.

Great to see someone from the old neighborhood who has done so well and has contributed so much to our betterment.

These are the buildings coming down and making way for the new Marriott Hotel in downtown Milwaukee. The nicer buildings and facades on the right and left of these pictures will be salvaged. Looking behind the walls of 150 years of history. Wonder if they found anything interesting?

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/DSC03319.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/DSC03318.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/DSC03319.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/DSC03320.jpg

View of the Moderne looking southwest. Right corner.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/DSC03316.jpg

Not sure this has been posted but here is the new windmill at the entrance to the Port of Milwaukee.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/boatnurd/DSC03321.jpg

God, I feel sick. That was such a beautiful block.

God, I feel sick. That was such a beautiful block.

Here's a screenshot of the block in question from google maps:
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/3185/milwaukeestreet.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/7/milwaukeestreet.jpg/) Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

I really don't think we lost very much here. There's the very nice smaller building in the middle that's worth a tear but the other two, not so much. Milwaukee has done an incredible job preserving its historic buildings. Sometimes you have to make way for change though. I think they are doing this project in a very tasteful and respectful way.

Here's a screenshot of the block in question from google maps:
[/URL] Uploaded with [URL="http://imageshack.us"]ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/7/milwaukeestreet.jpg/)

I really don't think we lost very much here. There's the very nice smaller building in the middle that's worth a tear but the other two, not so much. Milwaukee has done an incredible job preserving its historic buildings. Sometimes you have to make way for change though. I think they are doing this project in a very tasteful and respectful way.

While I agree that the buildings in question were not terribly significant, architecturally speaking, I've always contended that the HISTORY of these buildings is what made them fascinating and worth preserving. If we only kept buildings due to their architectural beauty, our landscape would be void of many historical landmarks, European children grow up learning far more about their culture than American children do, and a lot of that has to do with the fact that Americans don't understand the value of keeping their history around--we are just always concerned about building new newer newest...
Erecting a plaque for public consumption that states "on this site, once stood..." is a far cry from stumbling across a living artifact itself in a city. Future generations will forget all about the buildings that were on this site and subsequently never know the histories behind them...all because we decided to build a hotel there.

God, I feel sick. That was such a beautiful block.

The buildings on each corner ARE being preserved and they are the only buildings on the block that hadn't already been heavily mutilated or altered
(ground floor in all cases, entire facades in two).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/looksee/scraper/kahlerslatercom-content-images-ViewToNW_LoRes.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/looksee/scraper/kahlerslatercom-content-images-ViewToSW_LoRes.jpg
KahlerSlater (http://www.kahlerslater.com/expertise/hospitality/marriott-milwaukee-hotel)

This is a discussion that's already been gone through on this board. Let's hope the new hotel brings viability to a previously economically sketchy streetscape.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/how-we-can-unlock-milwaukees-potential-d14eu6u-142147203.html

"Here are three ideas to help jump-start the stagnant transition:

Relocate the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee undergraduate campus downtown: UWM enrolls about 25,000 undergraduate students. Although the majority come from within Wisconsin, families from around the world send their sons and daughters to Milwaukee for an undergraduate education. All of these undergraduate students are a source of significant economic activity. Moving this economic hub downtown would accomplish a number of objectives.

First, UWM could put underused real estate and office buildings on the west side of the Milwaukee River to use. Vacant office space, undeveloped parcels and ugly parking lots could be transformed into a vibrant undergraduate campus. The Shops of Grand Avenue could be run as a new student union. The UWM basketball teams already play their home games at the Wisconsin Center District's U.S. Cellular Arena. Rather than build yet another sports complex on the UWM campus on the east side, UWM could make the Arena its full-time home.

Second, UWM could solve the problem of being landlocked on the east side. In other words, UWM would have more space to expand and students would have a greater menu of undergraduate housing options instead of being crammed into multistory dormitories. On-street parking problems on the east side are legend. Downtown, however, has many more options.

Third, undergraduate buildings on the east side campus could be transformed into graduate studies and research facilities. Current dorms could be used for low-cost graduate student and visiting faculty housing or offices. UWM thus could consolidate its graduate programs that are spread over multiple locations and begin to realize its potential as a centrally located research university"

Maybe they are not singling out the Park East. However, I don't know where else they would put student housing

Just seems like there would be way too much space left on the Eastside, especially with dorm space, to simply accomodate grad students. Plus, I couldn't even begin to imagine the cost of building a university for 25,000+ students from to the ground up. Seems just absolutely rediculous.

Just seems like there would be way too much space left on the Eastside, especially with dorm space, to simply accomodate grad students. Plus, I couldn't even begin to imagine the cost of building a university for 25,000+ students from to the ground up. Seems just absolutely rediculous.

There is enough demand for housing in the East Side to gradually phase the campus into a neighborhood. Moving UWM into the Park East would be a fine way to diversify the interests of downtown development and bring bodies back into the urban core. I was a little offput by the proposal at first but I have come to think this is really a fantastic idea. Just imagine how much activity there would be in Western downtown, how much there would be to do and how alive the atmosphere could be, compared to what is now, which is basically tundra.

Feh, this is a continuation of the principles sent down from The Great Decentralizer Chancellor Santiago. I'm pleased that "visionary" has moved on to the south.

It weakens the University's physical presence and draw in a superior location, The East Side. It reduces the neighborhood-supporting critical mass on the pretense that it would create an entirely new neighborhood elsewhere. And its suggested here that the relocation of an entire neighborhood would be fine, because an another new neighborhood would fill in? Thats just remarkable.

Your initial reaction of being "a little offput" was the correct one. Go with your gut.

Latest on the Talgo Train maintenance base proposed for Milwaukee.

Apparently the vote against building the new maintenance base was over the objections of Gov. Scott Walker's administration. It was the state legislature's republican-controlled finance committee that voted it down 12 -4 along party linies. This decision could mean mothballing two brand-new Talgo trains and walking away from the $71.8 million already invested in them. According to the Republicans on the Finance Committee, this decision is supposed to save the State $200 million over the next 20years. I find it interesting to see that Scott Walker shifted to the side of the Democrats for the vote on this issue. Lots of additional complexities are described in the linked article from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/legislators-buck-walker-reject-train-maintenance-base-bg4isr4-142671085.html

I'm guessing Walker is for the train base because he's trying to make up for tossing the HSR grant. If the state truly refuses to build the maint. base, we'll see how much money the state pays to settle with Talgo for breach of contract.

There is enough demand for housing in the East Side to gradually phase the campus into a neighborhood. Moving UWM into the Park East would be a fine way to diversify the interests of downtown development and bring bodies back into the urban core. I was a little offput by the proposal at first but I have come to think this is really a fantastic idea. Just imagine how much activity there would be in Western downtown, how much there would be to do and how alive the atmosphere could be, compared to what is now, which is basically tundra.

I agree. I have often thought it was a strange situation.
Its like UWM is losing and the neighborhood is winning. Usually Great universities are able to conquer what ground is needed to make a great campus. Not in this case.

If UWM must move ParkEast would be the best place for that to take place.
Then the old university buildings there could be maintained for offices or made into condos. I certainly wouldnt approve wholesale slaughter of the UWM campus if it were to move, some buildings could still function as libraries or offices or living space.

Feh, this is a continuation of the principles sent down from The Great Decentralizer Chancellor Santiago. I'm pleased that "visionary" has moved on to the south.

It weakens the University's physical presence and draw in a superior location, The East Side. It reduces the neighborhood-supporting critical mass on the pretense that it would create an entirely new neighborhood elsewhere. And its suggested here that the relocation of an entire neighborhood would be fine, because an another new neighborhood would fill in? Thats just remarkable.

Your initial reaction of being "a little offput" was the correct one. Go with your gut.

In what universe is having 20,000 kids on Capitol Drive considered 'centralized?'

I'm guessing Walker is for the train base because he's trying to make up for tossing the HSR grant. If the state truly refuses to build the maint. base, we'll see how much money the state pays to settle with Talgo for breach of contract.
Walker has never been against upgrading the existing Hiawatha services. You put the money where it will do the most good and with its fast-growing ridership, adding capacity and utility to the route is a 'no brainer'.

Mike

Walker has never been against upgrading the existing Hiawatha services. You put the money where it will do the most good and with its fast-growing ridership, adding capacity and utility to the route is a 'no brainer'.

Mike

If we're talking about state tax dollars, the best bang for the buck was accepting the HSR grant. It cost more to reject the grant than accept it, that's not fiscally conservative... that's spiteful politics.

My guess is Walker saw some poll number suggesting he was seen as an incredible, arrogant fool for thumbing his nose at an $810,000,000 gift to the State.
Not that he isn't always utterly sincere and would ever engage in empty theater in the face of a recall race.

Still just don't see how building an entire campus from the ground up is even fiscally possible.

Turning down $1.5B of private investment money is smart but turning down $900 of public money is stupid. Money must surely grow on trees these days.

Turning down $1.5B of private investment money is smart but turning down $900 of public money is stupid. Money must surely grow on trees these days.

Are you talking about the mine? It's interesting how fast they skipped town when there was a little resistance to passing the mining law that they literally wrote.

If they're that flighty, do you think they would stick around if iron prices dropped slightly or there was any kind of pollution for them to clean up?

Don't count your chickens before they hatch.

Still just don't see how building an entire campus from the ground up is even fiscally possible.

Then I hope the University starts winning and is able to gain some ground.
Because its sounds like the neighbors are a bit hostile and have more power
than the University. Or many UWM could just start building UP. :cheers:

Then I hope the University starts winning and is able to gain some ground.
Because its sounds like the neighbors are a bit hostile and have more power
than the University. Or many UWM could just start building UP. :cheers:

The East Side campus of UWM is not locked in a binary battle between students and neighbors. Students are neighbors. One side doesn't have to lose for the other side to win.

Most home owning residents are concerned with property maintenance, noise, and parking problems. Do student residents want to live in an area that's poorly maintained, loud, and they find parking impossible?

MilwaukeeMax: "ad hominem? i don't think you know what ad hominem means."

I'm thinking he may have meant "ad nauseum". :)
And I'm thinking you may have meant "ad nauseam."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_nauseam

Hmmmmm .... Thanks for making your first post a correction of my spelling mistake.... five months later (or however long ago it was when that was posted). Glad to know people are staying on top of these types of things :)

Then I hope the University starts winning and is able to gain some ground.
Because its sounds like the neighbors are a bit hostile and have more power
than the University. Or many UWM could just start building UP. :cheers:

Sounds like a plan to me, the new science/engineering center will be a good start. I believe it'll be 6 stories, correct me if I'm wrong. That will be a huge change in the character of Maryland & Kenwood. If they could just replace or renovate the Union at the currect location it would form a great new gateway to campus coming from the south.

It's from years worth of following a curiosity of mine, miltown. I had heard rumours of a partially-built subway in Milwaukee and finally found all the research and images in the difficult-to-find book
TM The Milwaukee Electric Railway and Light Company by Joseph M. Canfield

It's seriously a very difficult book to find and is long out of print but it has hundreds and hundreds of pages of history and photography of the old Milwaukee Electric rail lines... everything from the single car trolleys and interurban rail to the subway photos above.

since you asked, yes... I have another relevant photo of one of the elevated stations along the rapid transit line that was being built in the 1930s in Milwaukee...
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a81/Maximilian77/23d4d905.jpg
Are you certain that the station depicted was for the interurban rapid transit line? If so, where?

The streetcars used one or more such elevated stations for the VA hospital complex in Wood, WI, I believe. Probably the Wells line.


OK... I see someone else caught that error before me. I have seen a graphic for this particular station on the Internet a couple years ago--somewhere...

Well if UWM did get a football team i'd assume it'd be a D-2 (or whatever its now called) team first. Even then it would still attract a large number of students to go to the games just for the culture tied to it. But we have to remember, UWM has 30,000+ students and since the chancellor has made it mandatory that freshman and sophmores have to live on campus the university is only gonna get more tied together (shedding its commuter school image). Its why the cell won't work anymore for the men's basketball team and a new arena will be built on campus. Its for this same reason that a football stadium would need to be built closer to the campus and would need to house a tens of thousands of people (not to mention that Marquette would likely use the stadium too for football).

Plus, UWM is due to to uncap their enrollment, the football program will likely move up to a d-1 in time, and the Milwaukee metro region will finally have a football stadium to see a couple of college teams play at. Those reasons alone would make a 50,000+ probably the best choice. (This is all just hopeful thinking, I know eventually UWM will get a football team and stadium to play at but that won't be for quite some time unless some big donors come up to bat in the near future).

Oh and the Cell is the U.S cellar arena (formerly the Mecca). I suppose if Milwaukee does get a new basketball arena downtown then either the Cell or the Bradley center would be demolished (hopefully its the Bradley center; that building is just about as awful as architecture can get).
Surely you jest? Back when US News & World Report last used its four-tier system for ranking colleges, UW-Milwaukee was ranked as a fourth-tier (lowest-ranked) college. And with its 15% 4-year graduation rate, UW-Milwaukee is comparative to the equally dismal Wayne State University in Detroit--another former fourth-tier school.

Today, US News uses only two tiers, and both aforementioned colleges are definitely second tier--somewhere among the lowest 25% ranked schools, probably bottom feeders, to boot.

Were UW-Milwaukee to ever have 50,000 "students," a very large percentage of them would be assumed to flunk out.

Surely you jest? Back when US News & World Report last used its four-tier system for ranking colleges, UW-Milwaukee was ranked as a fourth-tier (lowest-ranked) college. And with its 15% 4-year graduation rate, UW-Milwaukee is comparative to the equally dismal Wayne State University in Detroit--another former fourth-tier school.

Today, US News uses only two tiers, and both aforementioned colleges are definitely second tier--somewhere among the lowest 25% ranked schools, probably bottom feeders, to boot.

Were UW-Milwaukee to ever have 50,000 "students," a very large percentage of them would be assumed to flunk out.

Are you trying to make a point relative to football at UWM, or simply here to bash the school?

Sounds like a plan to me, the new science/engineering center will be a good start. I believe it'll be 6 stories, correct me if I'm wrong. That will be a huge change in the character of Maryland & Kenwood. If they could just replace or renovate the Union at the currect location it would form a great new gateway to campus coming from the south.

Good to hear it. I want UWM to do well.

Surely you jest? Back when US News & World Report last used its four-tier system for ranking colleges, UW-Milwaukee was ranked as a fourth-tier (lowest-ranked) college. And with its 15% 4-year graduation rate, UW-Milwaukee is comparative to the equally dismal Wayne State University in Detroit--another former fourth-tier school.

Today, US News uses only two tiers, and both aforementioned colleges are definitely second tier--somewhere among the lowest 25% ranked schools, probably bottom feeders, to boot.

Were UW-Milwaukee to ever have 50,000 "students," a very large percentage of them would be assumed to flunk out.

I Really don't get what point you are trying to make here SWDetroit. UW-Milwaukee may not be a top tier school academically but I never made that claim. The claim I am making is that Milwaukee is a big city with no D-1 football teams playing in it. Milwaukee also doesn't have a football stadium (we do have an NBA arena and a Baseball stadium) yet we have two schools here (Marquette and UWM) that could totally put a football stadium to use.

I'm still a student a UWM and even though I graduate in May, I can see that this school has and will continue making huge strides. The Union is about to get a major face lift if a vote passes at the end of this month, UWM purchased the Columbia St Mary's campus and has already be putting it to good use, The new school of public health (downtown) and freshwater sciences (reed street yards and 1st and greenfield), and the school is getting a new basketball arena probably on north ave (probably were la piazza formerly was). It only makes sense that the enrollment cap gets lifted and with all those students concentrated in one area, they will start asking the question "why don't we have a football team?". East capital is plenty close to campus and the only real place were a stadium can be built near the east side.

Any who, for those of you that didn't know, UWM is indeed talking about renovating the student union along with building some new academic building on its main campus. I wish I could show you some of the renderings I saw because they do leave a great impression of what could be.

And I must say, The Moderne is already looking mighty sexy. Hopefully the Staybridge Hotel finds a buyer and gets completed. That and lets hope Potowatomi tells the architects to design them a better looking hotel.

Anyone get any recent updates on the streetcar system?

Are you trying to make a point relative to football at UWM, or simply here to bash the school?
Likely both...

I remember from my own UWM student days eons ago when the head football coach there must have had a slight speech impediment, I guess, because he kept referring to his team as the "Panters." The home games were played over at Shorewood HS.

BTW, I attended both MUHS and Marquette U before transferring to UW-Madison and afterward transferring to UWM so that I could be employed full-time in Milwaukee and then transferring again back to Madison in order to get my engineering BS degree and continue with post-graduate studies in business and engineering there.

While a senior at UWM, I was an undergrad TA for two semesters and also was employed part-time by the UW Extension then, too.

Sorry, Charlie, but nationalizing student loans and admitting just about anybody into college is a colossal scam on the taxpayers. Especially when high schools "graduate" just about everybody (those who do not drop out, that is...).

The quality of UWM (and WSU) undergrads is low enough without admitting another 25,000 of them--who would be of even lower quality.

Anyone get any recent updates on the streetcar system?
Already, critics of the Milwaukee streetcars are comparing it to Detroit's People Mover--a boondoggle which is currently operating on commandeered (reserve) funds so that it can run for all this year--maybe...

The DPM has less than 10% of its predicted ridership, estimated way back in 1987. That one-way system breaks down from time to time, which might put it out of service for short times--but there have been some service outages lasting for months, though. It currently returns only 8% to 9% of its annual operating costs through the cashbox.

Milwaukee's critics are vocalizing their warnings as to the eventual failure of the streetcars there. Listen to them--instead of stubbornly drinking the LRT Kool-Aid.

This is getting interesting. Let the tennis match begin!

I will point out that the People Mover is more of a monorail and as I recall it was pretty much limited to the convention center, arenas and nearby hotel(s). I was there in 84 and 85.

So, more high maintenance and of limited use in a city tourists outright fear.

The Streetcar line will be going through a dense neighborhood and downtown, back and forth. It will be street level, of course and easy access.

Plus, tourists don't fear Milwaukee, they just don't respect it.

From a transportation professional's perspective, there is a key design difference between the planned streetcar and the People Mover. The People Mover travels in a one-way loop, which is about the silliest thing you can ever plan in fixed-guideway transit. It is nearly impossible to create one that adequately serves both the trip from the initial origin to the destination and the trip back. A good description of why this is so can be found here: http://www.humantransit.org/2009/07/on-loops.html. Luckily, the Mayor's initial plan for a similar downtown streetcar loop was modified to the current route from the Intermodal Station to Ogden & Prospect.

Also, I think it is important to note that the People Mover was planned as the solution for the 'last mile' of journeys that were to start further out of downtown Detroit on a metro/lrt system, which was never built. I don't know if this is why the planners predicted the ludicrous ridership number of 67,700 rides/day (it actually has about 7,000 rides/day), but the streetcar has a much more reasonable prediction of 1,800 rides/day. Given the ridership on comparable high-frequency bus lines in the area, I would be surprised if it didn't slightly surpass that number.

If given the choice on what to spend $55million in transportation funds on to improve Milwaukee, I would probably spend it on further enhancing the new MetroExpress Service with things like signal priority and off-board fare payment. But I doubt the streetcar will miss its operating budget or ridership goals. They've been set so low that it would be hard not to surpass the revenue targets, and I think that most of the comparisons people are making between the people mover and the streetcar show a lack of understanding about why the people mover will never be a success story.

Surely you jest? Back when US News & World Report last used its four-tier system for ranking colleges, UW-Milwaukee was ranked as a fourth-tier (lowest-ranked) college. And with its 15% 4-year graduation rate, UW-Milwaukee is comparative to the equally dismal Wayne State University in Detroit--another former fourth-tier school.

Today, US News uses only two tiers, and both aforementioned colleges are definitely second tier--somewhere among the lowest 25% ranked schools, probably bottom feeders, to boot.

Were UW-Milwaukee to ever have 50,000 "students," a very large percentage of them would be assumed to flunk out.

Alright, I never post on here anymore, but I just have to comment on how stupid an unnecessarily condescending this comment is. Grow up and get a life. I'm a recently graduated, former UWM "student" and had no problem getting an internship and full-time job with one of Wisconsin's largest and most admired companies, as do many UWM grads. I love that UWM is so unpretentious, where I likely wouldn't run across anyone who rides on the high horse that you're on.

Also, regarding the Union, I might as well just throw out an update because I'm very involved in it. There will be a referendum at the end of next week, and that vote will determine whether UWM builds a state-of-the-art new Union for $160 million and shelf life of 100 years, or simply maintains (with no structural, aesthetic, or service upgrades) the current building for a cost of $75 million and life of 25 years. The current building is assessed at $90 million. Go here for all the facts and some renderings:

http://www.aux.uwm.edu/Union/newunion/
http://newuwmunion.tumblr.com/

Also, regarding the Union, I might as well just throw out an update because I'm very involved in it. There will be a referendum at the end of next week, and that vote will determine whether UWM builds a state-of-the-art new Union for $160 million and shelf life of 100 years, or simply maintains (with no structural, aesthetic, or service upgrades) the current building for a cost of $75 million and life of 25 years. The current building is assessed at $90 million. Go here for all the facts and some renderings:

http://www.aux.uwm.edu/Union/newunion/
http://newuwmunion.tumblr.com/
The Memorial Union was built almost 85 years ago and did not need to be radically rebuilt in all that time since. OTOH, UWM's union was largely built less than 50 years ago, in the middle 1960s. And now it is falling apart and needs to be replaced???

Seems like a waste of money to me. Perhaps, it is time to put aside all these socialist additions to largely unnecessary public-sector infrastructure.

Right, our Union sucks. Similarly to how Union South in Madison was just replaced, and was built in the same era that our Union was built. A dark period for large structures, for sure. If you actually click on those websites you'll see the problems with it and why it needs to be replaced.

Right, our Union sucks. Similarly to how Union South in Madison was just replaced, and was built in the same era that our Union was built. A dark period for large structures, for sure. If you actually click on those websites you'll see the problems with it and why it needs to be replaced.
One can expect civil engineers, architects, and public planners to be fast and loose with the public purse...

What guarantee is there that the architects and civil engineers won't waste the money this time and build yet another flawed union that will need to be replaced prematurely? Seems to be more like another racket to aid the construction industry.

You win.

You win.
It's not about winning, but about stemming spending. Especially on things that are fairly unimportant.

For some, there will never be enough public-sector spending.

G'night...

For the record, I'm pretty fiscally conservative, and this particular project would be just about entirely funded by students (who would have to pay for the continued maintenance of a failing building, anyway), no state money would fund the construction of this building. In this case, replacement is the long-term financially sound decision, considering the alternative (which is stated on the website). As with anything, it's about knowing the facts before making an ultimate decision. This building is extremely important for the entire city, more than most people outside of UWM will ever know or understand until years later. Thankfully, that's why there is a very engaged and informed committee behind this to help educate the students, whom will be voting next week. It will ultimately be up to them, and I'm confident that the majority will vote yes.

For the record, I'm pretty fiscally conservative, and this particular project would be just about entirely funded by students (who would have to pay for the continued maintenance of a failing building, anyway), no state money would fund the construction of this building. In this case, replacement is the long-term financially sound decision, considering the alternative (which is stated on the website). As with anything, it's about knowing the facts before making an ultimate decision. This building is extremely important for the entire city, more than most people outside of UWM will ever know or understand until years later. Thankfully, that's why there is a very engaged and informed committee behind this to help educate the students, whom will be voting next week. It will ultimately be up to them, and I'm confident that the majority will vote yes.
Yada, yada, yada...

Instead of working and paying for their own education, today's students desire to receive nationalized student "loans," which might be forgiven at some point in the future. Thus, they could be living pretty much entirely off the taxpayers--if their "loans" were eventually forgiven.

So, the students would not really be paying for unnecessary building replacements, of whose importance to the city is surely dubious. If I were a civil engineer--largely dependent upon public-sector infrastructure spending--instead of being an electrical and chemical engineer, I might likely act much the way you are rationalizing.

The Occupy movement is just another example of this creeping socialism.

@SWDetroit "Already, critics of the Milwaukee streetcars are comparing it to Detroit's People Mover--a boondoggle which is currently operating on commandeered (reserve) funds so that it can run for all this year--maybe..."

And clearing showing they have little knowledge of the actual system being proposed. The Milwaukee Streetcar is similar to the Portland Streetcar, and the Seattle Streetcar (South Lake Union Line).

PS I'm guessing Portland is regretting the $3.8 Billion of economic development along the Streetcar line.

..

I kind of get the feeling that SWDetroit is trolling, so I'm done.