Will be Christians someday allowed to visit Mekah? [Archive]

Halawala

August 7th, 2007, 06:54 AM

The question is here, is there anything in the Quran or Sunnah that prohibits the non muslims to enter Makkah or Madinah?

No I don't think so, there are historical references of many non-muslims that have come and gone through Makkah and Madina whether it be for trade purposes or for visitation purposes.

Non-muslims might be prohibited from entering Haram Al sharif though, not sure but i think i hear something along the lines of that.

NO, there is nothing mentioned in Quran even in Hadeeth that prohibits non-Muslims to enter these holy cities.

I found an interesting article about that: http://www.sawtakonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12338

i think it is all because of some Salafi scholars fatwas, which adopted by the Saudi royalty.

الحمد لله والصلاة والسلام على رسول الله وعلى آله وصحبه وسلم أما بعد: فلا يجوز لغير المسلم دخول مكة لقوله تعالى: ( يا أيها الذين آمنوا إنما المشركون نجس فلا يقربوا المسجد الحرام ). [التوبة : 28] . قال البغوي : أراد منعهم من دخول الحرم لأنهم إذا دخلوا الحرم فقد قربوا من المسجد الحرام ، وهذا كما قال الله تعالى : ( سبحان الذي أسرى بعبده ليلاً من المسجد الحرام ). [ الإسراء:1]. وأراد به الحرم لأنه أسري به من بيت أم هانيء . والنصارى مشركون بنص القرآن الكريم ، قال تعالى: ( لقد كفر الذين قالوا إن الله هو المسيح ابن مريم وقال المسيح يا بني إسرائيل اعبدو الله ربي وربكم إنه من يشرك بالله فقد حرم الله عليه الجنة ومأواه النار وما للظالمين من أنصار * لقد كفر الذين قالوا إن الله ثالث ثلاثة ..). [ المائدة : 72-73]. بل لقد جاء الأمر من النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم بإخراج اليهود والنصارى من الجزيرة العربية كلها ، فعن عمر رضي الله عنه قال: سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول: "لئن عشت إن شاء الله لأخرجن اليهود والنصارى من جزيرة العرب حتى لا أدع فيها إلا مسلماً " .[ رواه مسلم]. وأوصى أمته بقوله: " أخرجوا المشركين من جزيرة العرب " .[ متفق عليه]. والكافر إذا وقعت منه العبادات على النحو المأمور به المسلم لا يصح منه لأنه يفتقد شرطاً أساسياً في الصحة وهو الإسلام. والله تعالى أعلم .

*UofT*

August 7th, 2007, 10:02 AM

I understood the first line of that and then i didn't get the rest.. translation?

August 7th, 2007, 12:52 PM

الحمد لله والصلاة والسلام على رسول الله وعلى آله وصحبه وسلم أما بعد: فلا يجوز لغير المسلم دخول مكة لقوله تعالى: ( يا أيها الذين آمنوا إنما المشركون نجس فلا يقربوا المسجد الحرام ). [التوبة : 28] . قال البغوي : أراد منعهم من دخول الحرم لأنهم إذا دخلوا الحرم فقد قربوا من المسجد الحرام ، وهذا كما قال الله تعالى : ( سبحان الذي أسرى بعبده ليلاً من المسجد الحرام ). [ الإسراء:1]. وأراد به الحرم لأنه أسري به من بيت أم هانيء . والنصارى مشركون بنص القرآن الكريم ، قال تعالى: ( لقد كفر الذين قالوا إن الله هو المسيح ابن مريم وقال المسيح يا بني إسرائيل اعبدو الله ربي وربكم إنه من يشرك بالله فقد حرم الله عليه الجنة ومأواه النار وما للظالمين من أنصار * لقد كفر الذين قالوا إن الله ثالث ثلاثة ..). [ المائدة : 72-73]. بل لقد جاء الأمر من النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم بإخراج اليهود والنصارى من الجزيرة العربية كلها ، فعن عمر رضي الله عنه قال: سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول: "لئن عشت إن شاء الله لأخرجن اليهود والنصارى من جزيرة العرب حتى لا أدع فيها إلا مسلماً " .[ رواه مسلم]. وأوصى أمته بقوله: " أخرجوا المشركين من جزيرة العرب " .[ متفق عليه]. والكافر إذا وقعت منه العبادات على النحو المأمور به المسلم لا يصح منه لأنه يفتقد شرطاً أساسياً في الصحة وهو الإسلام. والله تعالى أعلم .

"يا أيها الذين آمنوا إنما المشركون نجس فلا يقربوا المسجد الحرام بعد عامهم هذا"سورة التوبة الآية28
نزلت هذه الآية في السنة التاسعة للهجرة بعد فتح مكة و فيها أمر صريح بأن لا يدخل المشركون المسجد الحرام و لو لحجٍّ أو عمرة , فليس لهم أن يحجوا البيت أو يعتمروا أو يدخلوه لأي حاجة أخرى.
واضح من سياق الآية أن المخاطبين هم ما تبقى من قريش و القبائل العربية على دين أجدادهم يعبدون الأصنام.
و أمَّا أهل الكتاب فلم تتحدث عنهم الآية, و الآية لا تمنع المشركين من دخول أرض مكة و المدينة و مجاليهما الجوي , فهي تخصص المسجد الحرام , و بداهة فإن مشركي اليوم من هندوس و بوذيين و أتباع الديانات الوثنية في أفريقيا و أدغال الكونغو لا يعنيهم دخول المسجد الحرام و أداء فريضة الحج , بل إن المشركين المعاصرين للنبي محمد هم المقصودين بهذا الخطاب النبوي" القرآن" حيث منعهم النبي من أداء مناسك الحج

nomarandlee

August 7th, 2007, 01:00 PM

Yes its wrong.

But, in the end Makkah and Madinah are pure cities, pure from any non-Muslims. Weaether you like it or not, it will always forever stay like that...

:cheers:

So non-Muslims are impure and dirty beast of some sort? Thats enlightened.:ohno:

nomarandlee

August 7th, 2007, 01:09 PM

I understood the first line of that and then i didn't get the rest.. translation?

Praise be to Allah, peace and prayers be on the messenger of God and his family, and handed either : there may be a non-Muslim to enter Mecca to the Quranic verse : (O ye who believe, but let approach the Sacred Mosque). [Repentance : 28]. Bagui said : he wanted to stop them from entering the campus if they entered the campus has brought from the Sacred Mosque, and that God also said : (Sobhan which prisoners servant by night from the Sacred Mosque). . And he wanted to campus because prisoners of Beit Ummar Haney. Pagans and Christians text of the Holy Koran, Allah the Almighty said : (They do blaspheme who say that God is the Christ, son of Mary, said : O Children of Israel Abdo my Lord and your God that God has campuses involve God Paradise fire and shelter for evil-doers * They do blaspheme who say that Allah is the third of three ..). [Round : 72-73]. But it came from the Prophet peace be upon him driving the Jews and the Christians from the Arabian Peninsula, are Only Omar may Allah be pleased with him said : I heard Allah's peace be upon him say :[I] "While I lived, God willing assaulted Jews and the Christians from the Arabian Peninsula in order not to allow only a Muslim." [Tellers Muslim]. He recommended the nation by saying : "Get the infidels from the Arabian Peninsula". [Agreed]. And if the infidel signed worship him as ordered by Muslim can not miss it because it is a prerequisite to health, namely Islam. And God knows.

how nice.

Tom_Green

August 7th, 2007, 02:55 PM

I was once in Hong Kong. There was a small tempel whit a sign.

Please, no tourist.

I respect that. I haven`t entered that tempel.

Maybe in the future they can forbid non muslims to enter the Grand Mosque but allow them to enter Mekah. This is something i can live with.

If i am honest i would be annoyed by tourist taking pics of me during my religious duties.

nomarandlee: Go away and post once in your lifetime something related to skyscrapers. Because this is a skyscraper forum.

Halawala

August 7th, 2007, 06:06 PM

So non-Muslims are impure and dirty beast of some sort? Thats enlightened.:ohno:

OMG, the inverse of my statement is not my intention. Muslims are considered "pure" and having a Muslim-only city will "purify it"

AGAIN, dont put words in my mouth about non-Muslims. I dont know and it is not in my scope of relegious judgement to decided for that belief.

Vixtro

August 7th, 2007, 06:17 PM

So non-Muslims are impure and dirty beast of some sort? Thats enlightened.:ohno:

LAWL:lol:

qwazy

August 7th, 2007, 06:25 PM

how will they even know. as far as i know, most secular countries dont officially track their citizens religions. so their passports dont say MUSLIM or JEW or ATHEIST. just pretend ur a muslim and get in lol

im sure many non muslims go in. ive seen many intl. reporters there from like BBC, CNN etc (seen em on TV that is)

and i think islam does allow non muslims in there. maybe a screwd up salafi version doesnt.

and all humanity is like gods children. its not very nice to call people "impure" based on their ethnicity or religoin

smussuw

August 7th, 2007, 06:56 PM

^^ source?

Halawala

August 7th, 2007, 07:17 PM

im sure many non muslims go in. ive seen many intl. reporters there from like BBC, CNN etc (seen em on TV that is)

and i think islam does allow non muslims in there. maybe a screwd up salafi version doesnt.

and all humanity is like gods children. its not very nice to call people "impure" based on their ethnicity or religoin

---> We are like God's children??? We are God's slaves, not children. :nuts:

But, there are no non-Muslim reporters. On CNN, Hala Gorania, and Wanita Rajpal, who are both Muslim performed the Hajj and reported it last year (Hala the year before)

--> You can get it if you want to, but you have to risk your head being chopped of if you get caught.

Rules are rules! Live with them.

nomarandlee

August 7th, 2007, 07:28 PM

nomarandlee: Go away and post once in your lifetime something related to skyscrapers. Because this is a skyscraper forum.

Lame Tom, very lame. First I am not going to take the bait of your lame assertion that's patently false. 2nd your obviously bitter over prior encounters in which I called you out on some repugnant views you have but I advise don't sweat it.

Obviously to you being a good skyscraper/urban enthusiast means lauding the indefensible and abuse of the actual builders. Maybe that makes you some sort of building enthusiast of the year award winner in your head or something incredibly lame.

smussuw

August 7th, 2007, 07:31 PM

---> We are like God's children??? We are God's slaves, not children. :nuts:
I actually heard that we can call ourselves Allah's children but it doesn't mean that literally. It means that he is our creator and merciful to the humankind.

nomarandlee

August 7th, 2007, 07:43 PM

OMG, the inverse of my statement is not my intention. Muslims are considered "pure" and having a Muslim-only city will "purify it"

AGAIN, dont put words in my mouth about non-Muslims. I dont know and it is not in my scope of relegious judgement to decided for that belief.

But, in the end Makkah and Madinah are pure cities, pure from any non-Muslims

If something is pure and you can't and something is kept pure from something that is "non" or doesn't belong one would conclude that one is impure in comparison no?

By saying Muslims will purify it what will non-Muslims do? Contaminate it? No matter how you word you are indicating that Muslims are more pure or something more clean in some way then non's. You seem sincere in not wanting to offend but either way you slice it that is the case.

Vixtro

August 7th, 2007, 07:46 PM

---> We are like God's children??? We are God's slaves, not children. :nuts:

children sounds nicer:lol:

^Anton^

August 7th, 2007, 08:20 PM

OMG, the inverse of my statement is not my intention. Muslims are considered "pure" and having a Muslim-only city will "purify it"

So... can you explain it? You're saying Muslims are considered pure, and having a Muslim only city will purify it, so I wonder, what are non Muslims as opposed to pure? Is it me or that sounds kinda nazi?

nomarandlee

August 7th, 2007, 08:35 PM

I wouldn't use that term but I would be inclined to say it sounds like a supremacist.

smussuw

August 7th, 2007, 08:51 PM

So... can you explain it? You're saying Muslims are considered pure, and having a Muslim only city will purify it, so I wonder, what are non Muslims as opposed to pure? Is it me or that sounds kinda nazi?
No it is only you !!!

Being pure/taher have a specific meaning in Islam. To purify urself u need to do the wudu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wudu) which is the way for Muslims to purify themselves therefore non-muslims are not pure according to this term because they don't do the wudu or believe in it.

It has nothing to do with being physically dirty, it is more like a spiritual phase done by some physical cleaning to be prepared to face Allah.

nomarandlee

August 7th, 2007, 09:06 PM

So if a Muslim doesn't perform Wudu are they automatically as impure or unclean as a non-Muslim?

And if a non-Muslim does perform the ritual of Wudu can they be clean or are they still impure? If they are still impure that would reflect more that they are spiritually or mentally deficient and somehow contaminated no? How is being considered mentally or spiritually unclean better then being psychical unclean?

^Anton^

August 7th, 2007, 09:07 PM

It has nothing to do with being physically dirty, it is more like a spiritual phase done by some physical cleaning to be prepared to face Allah.

So I'm not spiritually clean (or not as much as you are) because you're Muslim and I'm not?
I don't want it to sound like I'm trying to bug anyone here, but seriously, I think you guys would also feel offended if anyone said Muslims aren't as pure as Christians, for example.

smussuw

August 7th, 2007, 09:11 PM

^^ Actually, u are annoying !!

You are not spiritually clean Islamically because u don't believe in Islam and do the wudu or do u?

^Anton^

August 7th, 2007, 09:14 PM

smussuw

August 7th, 2007, 09:20 PM

^^ One more thing, we Muslims have to do the wudu to be pure to face God so we are impure when we don't do the wudu.

Purple Dreams

August 7th, 2007, 09:28 PM

But as long as you're muslim you can visit Mecca. Who cares whether you perform wudu or not.

nomarandlee

August 7th, 2007, 09:30 PM

So its a two step process. You are not 100% pure unless you are Muslim and have just done Wudu? Are you 50% pure if you are Muslim but haven't done Wudu? Are you 50% clean if you do Wudu but aren't Muslim? Are you 100% not clean if you are not Muslim and don't do Wudu?

But as long as you're muslim you can visit Mecca. Who cares whether you perform wudu or not.

That also makes me wonder. If you are Muslim and don't wudu is that just as harem as if you were a non-Muslim and entered Mecca?

Vixtro

August 7th, 2007, 09:32 PM

:rofl:

August 8th, 2007, 12:26 AM

So its a two step process. You are not 100% pure unless you are Muslim and have just done Wudu? Are you 50% pure if you are Muslim but haven't done Wudu? Are you 50% clean if you do Wudu but aren't Muslim? Are you 100% not clean if you are not Muslim and don't do Wudu?

this is the pointview of Islam like any other religions and you should respect it not making fun of it.

+ at least Islam doesn't accuse that (others, disbelievers or so) are like animals or worse and Muslims are superiors and the ones who chosen by God, like a famous monothiestic religion do.

Islam is a religion for everyone and everywhere, not specified to specific race or group.

eklips

August 8th, 2007, 12:34 AM

Actualy DG, since you are refering to judaism, many people think that jews considered themselves the "chosen people", even many jews themselves. However in the Torah it is said that God chose jews because all the others had refused. And that thus jews have heavier religious tasks.

I am not arguing against islam, because I think that generally the speech around a religion is more interesting than the religion itself, however don't try to diminish others' by defending your own group.

^Anton^

August 8th, 2007, 01:04 AM

this is the pointview of Islam like any other religions and you should respect it not making fun of it.

+ at least Islam doesn't accuse that (others, disbelievers or so) are like animals or worse and Muslims are superiors and the ones who chosen by God, like a famous monothiestic religion do.

Islam is a religion for everyone and everywhere, not specified to specific race or group.

So when you're saying Muslims are pure and non Muslims are not, aren't you placing Muslims above everybody else in the world?

August 8th, 2007, 01:06 AM

August 8th, 2007, 01:16 AM

So when you're saying Muslims are pure and non Muslims are not, aren't you placing Muslims above everybody else in the world?

no it has nothing to do with being superior. non-Muslims are not pure spiritually not physically and it applies to Muslims also who doesn't do the wudu so he/she is not pure until doing the wudu, and It is just an obligatory requirement for Muslims to be pure to face God in prayers or before reading the Quran.

^Anton^

August 8th, 2007, 01:19 AM

I just think it's a dangerous point of view to state that others are "inferior" in any way (including spiritually) just because they don't follow our way of living and thinking. That is what led to colonialism (indigenous people of all over the world were considered inferior for not being part of the European culture), or even to terrorism nowadays (according to which Westerners deserve to die for being sinful infidels).

Some of you people are justifying the banning of non Muslims in Mecca because it's a "holy site" for Islam. Well... for some of you religion must be the center of your lives, and that's your choice and I respect it, but... now think of us in the West, for us culture is not less important than religion is for you, and, what would you say if our governments banned Muslims from visiting and even living in our countries as to preserve "our cultural purity", wouldn't you guys consider it outraging? Frankly, I would.

gamayun

August 8th, 2007, 03:40 AM

nomarandlee

August 8th, 2007, 04:14 AM

i dont diminish or post flames to others like some people here do when it comes to Islam, i just gave a real example which no body can deny it.

i wanted to deliver a message to someone: (don't throw others with stones, while your house is made of glasses) lol

I don't have a problem with religion DG, I have a problem with peoples views. If some Jew, Christian, Taoist, or Buddhist express beliefs that gays are horrible people, other peoples are more impure or below them, then I would take issue where their views as well. I know Muslims who wouldn't call others impure or unclean so I don't accept that its a tenant that has to be beholden or respected even if some claim they have a theological basis for it.

nomarandlee

August 8th, 2007, 04:20 AM

I know alot about Islam and have never heard this "purity" stuff. Mohamed's wife was Christian and both Christians and Jews lived in Mecca and Medina during his life.

It's interesting to see how some caliphs decisions became part of the religion.

Btw. I'm sure some jerks, if allowed to ender Holy Mosque, would do smth. blasphemous to provoke reaction of uneducated Muslims. Like cartoon scandal multiplied by thousand times...

So, IMHO no entry for non-Muslims for know.

That sounds a bit paranoid. There are plenty of people who disrespect or hate the Catholic Church but the Vatican has little issue of people defacing or damaging the complex. Even if there were a few that would it wouldn't be a real good excuse to keep people out because of what a few nutters would do. The idea of keeping it open and welcoming is more important in my opinion.

I could understand keeping non members out of a shrine or temple etc. because those are places where distractions should be limited and not asa tourist destinations especially during use of services. But I find closing off a whole city extreme personally.

gamayun

August 8th, 2007, 06:50 AM

Halawala

August 8th, 2007, 08:30 AM

If something is pure and you can't and something is kept pure from something that is "non" or doesn't belong one would conclude that one is impure in comparison no?

By saying Muslims will purify it what will non-Muslims do? Contaminate it? No matter how you word you are indicating that Muslims are more pure or something more clean in some way then non's. You seem sincere in not wanting to offend but either way you slice it that is the case.

Well, Im not going to change my statement. I stand with my belief.

nomarandlee

August 8th, 2007, 10:18 AM

Well, I was thinking of Holy Mosque i.e. "temple".

And, no I'm not paranoid. It just that I think human life is worthier than political correctness. You know very well how sensitive Muslims are when it comes to their religion (actually, it has little to do with religion itself) and what a single fanatical jerk from the West can do.

Btw. all cities in the West are closed for me. ;) How should we interpret that?

I find that ironic you would claim that their is reasonable risk on the grounds based on some hypothetical of what one "jerk can do". Sure a jerk or a few jerks could attempt to. But there are actually shrines and Mosque being attacked by fellow Muslims in Iraq does that mean you are going to ban Muslims from Mosque? Of course not. There have been Muslims who have gone into the the Grand Mosque and taken hostages and killed in its vinicity I can't remember a non-Muslim every brining that to bare. Yet Muslims are of course not banned from the Mosque.

The Pope has had plots against his life against Islamic militants before does that mean you screen all those who are within eye distance to be screened for their religious identity? No, because it would be overly reactionary.

Are we going to ban Muslim from the whole city of Cologne for all time just because one or a few Muslim may want to bomb its ironic cathedral?

Sorry, but there is a concept of a crediable and reasonable expectation of a threat and I don't see your fear as very reasonable.

Btw. all cities in the West are closed for me. ;) How should we interpret that

That can more likely be construed as economic discrimination more then religous/racial. Something which most nations implement to one degree or the other often to keep out in an influx of undesired labor and side effects on the economy. Yes, it is punishes those who have no intention of not overstaying and just visiting and that sucks.

If you are kept out of a country because you are considered impure or unclean I would think the discrimination worse. If you are an advocate of unfettered open worldwide borders I think there is some validity and strong principles to it.

Well, Im not going to change my statement. I stand with my belief.

Thats fine. I am not asking you to change. I was just wondering if you could clarify since you classifeid because you said one needed to be pure to enter Mecca and you said Muslims were pure then what are the implications in relation to non-Muslims since they are not allowed into Mecca you asserted that they were somehow not pure.

^Anton^

August 8th, 2007, 11:12 AM

Btw. I'm sure some jerks, if allowed to ender Holy Mosque, would do smth. blasphemous to provoke reaction of uneducated Muslims. Like cartoon scandal multiplied by thousand times...

Well, some Muslim fanatics, terrorists, come to our countries and kill innocent people... just because of that tiny minority we should ban Muslims from entering our countries? Do you think that's reasonable?

I'm sorry but I just hate double standards. Millions of Muslims live in our countries, in Europe, and they (rightfully) demand respect for them and their culture, but when we go to their countries we're treated as "second class citizens" because apparently we're "morally corrupted", "spiritually lower", and even "impure" as to visit some of their cities... well, I call that hypocrisy.

^Anton^

August 8th, 2007, 11:17 AM

Btw. all cities in the West are closed for me. ;) How should we interpret that?

What you're saying is not true and you know it.... how many cities in the West are closed to you for the only reason of you being a Muslim? You know the answer is NONE. Get a valid residence permit or visa and visit or even live here, as millions of Muslims already do. So... I'm sorry buddy, but your example is not valid.

Tom_Green

August 8th, 2007, 12:02 PM

Lame Tom, very lame. First I am not going to take the bait of your lame assertion that's patently false. 2nd your obviously bitter over prior encounters in which I called you out on some repugnant views you have but I advise don't sweat it.

Obviously to you being a good skyscraper/urban enthusiast means lauding the indefensible and abuse of the actual builders. Maybe that makes you some sort of building enthusiast of the year award winner in your head or something incredibly lame.

I know a person who acts like you. She is searching only for negative things and even it`s just one small sentence she talks about it forever. It`s my mother. :D

Sometimes you think you win against me in an arguement. The reason for that is that you don`t listen to what i ahev to say. I think you have a high IQ but a low EQ. It`s seems very difficult for you to see what other people are thinking. The pure muslims in Mekah statement was offensive but i don`t see a reason to talk about it for ever.
I am way more relaxed than you are. Sometimes i believe that you think everybody who is against Israel and likes Dubai is a slave trader or terrorist.

I think you believe smussuw`s view is extreme but i met him and i know he is a nice person.
It`s the same about me. I know the situation of the taxi drivers in Dubai so i paid the normal fare and 20 - 100% extra.
Am i bad person ?

goschio

August 8th, 2007, 12:28 PM

So what will happen if you go in as a non muslim and they find out? Will they chop off your head or something?

Vixtro

August 8th, 2007, 12:32 PM

I don't think they would kill you, maybe imprisonment, lashings or deportation

August 8th, 2007, 12:35 PM

^^ very funny

Vixtro

August 8th, 2007, 12:36 PM

^^ very funny

i wasn't trying to be funny :S

^Anton^

August 8th, 2007, 01:07 PM

I think you believe smussuw`s view is extreme but i met him and i know he is a nice person.
It`s the same about me. I know the situation of the taxi drivers in Dubai so i paid the normal fare and 20 - 100% extra.
Am i bad person ?

I don't think anyone here is judging if you or smussuw are good or bad people. I don't know much about you, but concerning smussuw I do believe his views are extreme. Anyway, I could never say he's a bad person and I would never argue with you that he's a nice person as you're saying, I oppose his views, it's nothing against him as a person.

We're discussing ideas here, that's all, and probably most of us would just get on well and be nice if we were in front of each other having a coffee and not arguing over those things.

However, you can't expect people to just nod and smile when we're being called "impure" and we're being banned from visiting cities because of our religion or lack of religion. It's especially upsetting when we all know that if it happened the other way round, they would be outraged about it.

Halawala

August 8th, 2007, 01:07 PM

No no, honestly, it was not my intention to twist your words. But... what I'm thinking is (and you gotta admit that at least it makes sense). Well, you're a devoted Muslim, you believe in Allah and the Quran... so you see life through the eyes of Islam... so, if I'm not "Islamically" pure, and you see life from a Islamic point of view, then that would make me less pure as a person than you are...

^^ Actually, u are annoying !!

You are not spiritually clean Islamically because u don't believe in Islam and do the wudu or do u?

Thats fine. I am not asking you to change. I was just wondering if you could clarify since you classifeid because you said one needed to be pure to enter Mecca and you said Muslims were pure then what are the implications in relation to non-Muslims since they are not allowed into Mecca you asserted that they were somehow not pure.

It seems many people in this forum are obviously trying to make Islam look bad. They might not be against Islam, but they will try their best effort to make Islam sound bad and evil. I dont really know what is the reason. We respect all relegions, especially the Christain and Jewish faith since they are the faith of the Sky. So, weather or not Makkah or Madinah are suppost to have non-Muslims is a matter entirely left to Muslims and the Saudi Arabian governement to decide.

Makkah is built by Muslims and will only remain Muslim forever.

Normallee, read my post again, I clearly replied to your question 2 times already.

^Anton^

August 8th, 2007, 01:12 PM

It seems many people in this forum are obviously trying to make Islam look bad. They might not be against Islam, but they will try their best effort to make Islam sound bad and evil. I dont really know what is the reason. We respect all relegions, especially the Christain and Jewish faith since they are the faith of the Sky. So, weather or not Makkah or Madinah are suppost to have non-Muslims is a matter entirely left to Muslims and the Saudi Arabian governement to decide.

Makkah is built by Muslims and will only remain Muslim forever.

Normallee, read my post again, I clearly replied to your question 2 times already.

Now you're being paranoid... it is not my intention to try to make Islam (or any other religion) look bad, what interest could I possibly have in doing that?, I just hate how extreme interpretations of religion (Islam, Christianism, Judaism, you name it...) take to such discriminatory situations.

Believe me, I would be equally upset if this was about Christians or Jews discriminating against other people. You don't know me, and that's ok, but don't act as if you were in my head and know what I think, and don't put words in my mouth please.

And yeah, it is up to the Saudi government to do what they want in their territory, but it's also up to me as a free citizen to give my opinion about it.

Halawala

August 8th, 2007, 02:11 PM

it is not my intention to try to make Islam (or any other religion) look bad, what interest could I possibly have in doing that?,

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.... OK... i believe you...

^Anton^

August 8th, 2007, 02:22 PM

^^
You should, you may not like my views but I'm not a liar.

cattivo

August 8th, 2007, 02:32 PM

most of non-muslim don't understand the signifacant of Makkah.
Makkah is a true holy place for muslim and it's also the point for all muslims in the world to use Makkah (Kaabah) for their prayer.

plus, it's also the historical since the creation of Islam (Allahuakbar)
while Vatican (no offence) it's like the admin centre for Catholic Christian.

so non-muslim should not be offensive over the regulation because Islam didn't mean to keep Makkah from outside world but it's a religion that stated in the Koran.

^Anton^

August 8th, 2007, 02:34 PM

while Vatican (no offence) it's like the admin centre for Catholic Christian.

You could offend people by saying that, I can't believe you're asking for respect to your dear Makkah at the same time you despise the Vatican that much.

I was in the Vatican a few years ago when I was visiting Rome, because it is a masterpiece of architecture, but I also saw religious people for whom that place meant a lot more than that. You are nobody to decide what the Vatican means to those people, and even though for me it is only a monument to visit, for them its significance is a lot deeper, and you should respect it if you want people to respect you and your beliefs as well.

You wouldn't like it if someone said Kaaba is just some piece of rock Muslims go crazy for, right?

nomarandlee

August 8th, 2007, 03:56 PM

I know a person who acts like you. She is searching only for negative things and even it`s just one small sentence she talks about it forever. It`s my mother. :D

Sometimes you think you win against me in an arguement. The reason for that is that you don`t listen to what i ahev to say. I think you have a high IQ but a low EQ. It`s seems very difficult for you to see what other people are thinking. The pure muslims in Mekah statement was offensive but i don`t see a reason to talk about it for ever.
I am way more relaxed than you are. Sometimes i believe that you think everybody who is against Israel and likes Dubai is a slave trader or terrorist.

I think you believe smussuw`s view is extreme but i met him and i know he is a nice person.
It`s the same about me. I know the situation of the taxi drivers in Dubai so i paid the normal fare and 20 - 100% extra.
Am i bad person ?

I hope you get along with your mother better then you do me.:)

I don't enter join in threads in order to win arguments but do just want to express my view and understand the mentality of those I am discussing with.

In this particular case if someone has what I find to be a lewd sentiment. It is not a lack of understanding the reasoning thats an issue it is just I don't agree with the foundation of with which he rest his justification. Also in my disputes with you it frankly has been the same.

As far as the whole against Israel or likes Dubai that its just not true. I have found a good number of criticism against Israel to be fair and have some of my own. I have opined on those who have heaped emotive vitrioul criticism of it in a few cases because frankly I see some very stark double standards by a few.

I don't have a problem with anyone that has affection for Dubai There are some in the Emirate forum who I totally respect who have obvious affection for Dubai are level headed and acknowledge and don't sugar coat the realities in an extreme way or engaged in neck deep denial or worse.

As far as smussuw I don't think its really the place to talk in depth about a third person. I will just say in any interaction between us haven't stemmed from views as opposed to personality or charioteer.

nomarandlee

August 8th, 2007, 05:20 PM

It seems many people in this forum are obviously trying to make Islam look bad. They might not be against Islam, but they will try their best effort to make Islam sound bad and evil. I dont really know what is the reason. We respect all relegions, especially the Christain and Jewish faith since they are the faith of the Sky. So, weather or not Makkah or Madinah are suppost to have non-Muslims is a matter entirely left to Muslims and the Saudi Arabian governement to decide.

Disagreeing with any persons particular personal notions and opinions is not the same as attacking a religion itself and even more so when it is disputed if those ideas have theologic legitimacy to stand on.

You can't appropriate the issue and claim that what is a questioning or deriding of your opinons/ideas is an attack on a religion. Don't mistake it, it is far more about YOU and what and how you chose to believe then an indictment on a religion itself.

Halawala

August 8th, 2007, 05:56 PM

Its so funny that I never mention names but people automatically know themselves! hehehe

اللهم اعز الاسلام والمسلمين,

gamayun

August 8th, 2007, 06:10 PM

But there are actually shrines and Mosque being attacked by fellow Muslims in Iraq does that mean you are going to ban Muslims from Mosque?

Mecca and Madina are sacred both to shias and sunnis. ;) Couple of minutes of googling will not give you enough knowledge to discuss Islam.

Are we going to ban Muslim from the whole city of Cologne for all time just because one or a few Muslim may want to bomb its ironic cathedral?

What you don't understand is that religion is not really important here.

Muslims reacted to those cartoons not because they are blasphemous but because they show how much West disrespects them. The West is constantly telling Muslims what to do, what's good and what's bad, how should they behave and live... Do you really think that anyone with self respect would tolerate this?

It's so not about fucking religion...

That can more likely be construed as economic discrimination more then religous/racial.

What's the difference? And how Islam discriminate between races?

Something which most nations implement to one degree or the other often to keep out in an influx of undesired labor and side effects on the economy. Yes, it is punishes those who have no intention of not overstaying and just visiting and that sucks.

Yes it sucks, but I understand. I know some would illegally immigrate (low number, though) if visas weren't needed, so I accept it though it's not fair.

Btw. do you know how humiliating question they ask you for USA visa?