C'mon guys, what is going on up in North Wales? The forum seems to be a little Southwalecentric!!!! What is happening in the great resorts, Holyhead and the A55 coridor etc?

I have just read that there is another span going across the Dee, looks nice and modern .. any major new structures or resi/hotels planned.. anything?

I think all the North Walians are in the liverpool forum ;)

I have just read that there is another span going across the Dee, looks nice and modern ..
You mean, across the estuary itself?

I just came back from a trip around the Wales coast, there is so much to see but it starts at Llandudno. The gap between Chester and Llandudno was full of awfull caravan sites (ie Abergele) and from what i saw run down seaside towns (ie Rhyl and Prestatyn). The rest of the coastline was absolutely stunning countryside with really interesting walled towns with massive castles. The thing i noticed most though was a complete lack of a large urban area. I think the largest place i went to was Aberystwyth which remided me of Pontypridd in terms of size, though its center was much better maintained and busier (and the seaside location was nice) though the waterfront had alot of empty buildings which seemed to be being progresively done up as apartments.

So i think in comparison to the south there wasnt large scale development like the south because most of it is touristy and either already was developed or had no need to change as they were all quite historic places where modern development would be quite an eyesore (as i could see in Caernafon where a large set of apartments was being built).

You mean, across the estuary itself?

No, just down from the curernt bridges.. across the skinny bit!


They are Dai!


Aye, you are right Cardiff. To my childs eye, going along the coast road used to be like going down the Pacific highway, bungalows, trailers, art deco houses and nice aprtment blocks... palms and beach.. the adult version is much more distressing. Now even the coast road has largely been destroyed.

It has bags of potential though. I do think that Llandudno should model itself on somewhere like Nice, rather than on a failed Victorian seaside resort. Rhyl is shite, always has been.

Talking of california though, there is a hilltop hotel just outside of Llandudno, on the old coast road, on the way back to Liverpool, that is built out of the hillside on stills.... quite spectacular.

Where do you think Llandudno models itself on? Llandudno is Llandudno, it does not need to model itself on anywhere, it is a success. Shorly you don't think Llandudno models itself on Rhyl???!! With the backdrop of Snowdonia, y gogarth and the pastel buildings it is one of the most beautiful towns in the uk...

From Llandudno are we? Keep your hair on. I think Llandudno is beautiful and succesful, my comment was meant to be taken in the context of continuing that success .. as what are the defining features and characteristics of failure around the British coastline.. er, faded Victorian resorts.

Building looky likey new hotels and making a pastiche of the theatre are not the way to ensure continued success IMO. As you say, it has two main features, the QUALITY architecture and the brilliant aspect. They should continue building quality, nit mediocre 'in keeping'!

All hail Llandudno, a great little urban centre!

Talking of california though, there is a hilltop hotel just outside of Llandudno, on the old coast road, on the way back to Liverpool, that is built out of the hillside on stills.... quite spectacular.

Not any more there isn't:-
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/230/506223353_40c81ba680.jpg

What i liked about llandudno was the cohesiveness of the architecture and the fact it was all very well maintained (which is extreemly rare in UK seaside towns). It one of the nicest sea side towns in the UK IMO.

Not any more there isn't:-
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/230/506223353_40c81ba680.jpg

BASTARDS! :ohno:

What happened there? Was it burned down or just being demolished? That is really sad!

thank you sebo, yes dw'in dod y llandudno yn wreiddiol.

That building was an old hotel, known locally as the hotel 70 degrees. It was derelict for years and before that it was about as successful as faulty towers. Its in the Hen Golwyn (old colwyn) area of colwyn bay..

Wrexham is the place currently seeing a multi million pound face lift, huge shopping and leisure complex being built there.

It was a bit 70s' California cop show, but it was so distinctive.. really sad about that!

It has been completely demolished to make way for this new development:-

http://media.rightmove.co.uk/30k/29544/29544_3_bed_house_1_IMG_07_0000.jpg

Prices will start at £399,950. Interestingly, the blurb states "Colwyn Bay, is located in beautiful Clwyd, in the heart of Debighshire." Hmmm, I didn't realise Clwyd was in the heart of Debighshire (sic), I always thought it was an obsolete county. I don't know about anybody else, but surely something a bit more adventurous should have been put in such a prominent spot.

Stew, the hotel had been vacant since about 2002, but was very successful until the A55 bypassed it. Before that, as Tony said, it was on the coast road, in the days when it would take absolutely hours to get from Chester to Holyhead by road. On days out as a kid I would love seeing the 70 Degrees because it meant we were nearly at the seaside, and the hell of Mk2 Escort vinyl seats was about to end.

Here is a shot of it in before it was renamed The Colwyn Bay Hotel:-

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/43/87294112_da0893157d_b.jpg

The architect, Stewart Powell Bowen, designed it so that the corners of the buildings were at 70 degrees rather than 90, because aparently the cliff face was at 70 degrees. I've taken a grab of it off maps.live.com to illustrate.

http://lluniau.simonjones.org/ssc/hotel70.jpg

Apparently this feature meant it cost a fortune to recarpet.

There are loads of pictures of it in a derelict state, including interior shots here (http://www.uer.ca/locations/show.asp?locid=22091) and there was a website trying to save it here (http://www.seventydegrees.co.uk/)

I took some photos myself, but they are at home. This was possibly the most distinctive modernist building in northern Wales (apart from maybe Wrexham Baths), but you can't argue with commerce or fashion.

Cheers for the info Borras. Such a pity. That thing rocked.

Yeah, thanks Boras. I wrote some time ago that the A55 ruined loads of cool places and scenery.. and someone got back and disagreed with me! The poor old coast road was a long drive, but that is what made it so good, part of the journey, who wants to arrive at your holiday destination 25 mins after leaving Liverpool?

It certainly did rock. It's a shame I didn't get the lottery win I was aiming for, I was going to buy it and turn it back into something like it was when it was built, a bit of a 70s themed hotel, and balls to it making money. Would surely have been popular with Wayne Hemingway types.

Completely agree about the A55. Yeah, it's handy, but it has changed so many places. You only have to drive along the old road to see how much - so many closed hotels, petrol stations, pubs and shops. The traffic may be gone but so has some of the character. To be honest, I think you can attribute quite a fair bit of the decline of Rhyl and Prestatyn to the building of the A55, not to mention the poncification of places like Abersoch.

Why is the coast between the border and Llandudno so crap? it has to be one of the most depressing string of towns in the UK. From Llandudno westwards though it's great!

Don't know about many ongoing developments in the area but when I was in Morfa Nefyn a few weeks ago there were some newly built apartments near the beach.

£250k gets you this
http://www.beresfordadams.co.uk/badpic/PWL060147_01.JPG

http://www.beresfordadams.co.uk/badpic/PWL060147_02.JPG

The new shopping centre in Wrexham is probably the biggest current project.

Its all where the beefed up A55 bypasses it, I suppose. The old coast road seemed all nice enough when I was a kid, although that's getting to be a long time ago now.

It certainly did rock. It's a shame I didn't get the lottery win I was aiming for, I was going to buy it and turn it back into something like it was when it was built, a bit of a 70s themed hotel, and balls to it making money. Would surely have been popular with Wayne Hemingway types.

Completely agree about the A55. Yeah, it's handy, but it has changed so many places. You only have to drive along the old road to see how much - so many closed hotels, petrol stations, pubs and shops. The traffic may be gone but so has some of the character. To be honest, I think you can attribute quite a fair bit of the decline of Rhyl and Prestatyn to the building of the A55, not to mention the poncification of places like Abersoch.

Aye.... £35m would have well done the trick!

When planners go on about traffic congestion they forget (or do not care) that for many business that sustain a town's wellbeing this is actually 'passing trade'!

Don't forget that at the moment there's probably the highest building site in the country on Snowdon itself - Hafod Eryri, the new Snowdon Summit Building. Should be finished ready for next years spring season (2008).

http://www.eryri-npa.co.uk/images/press_releases/newbuilding.jpg

Meh, the coast east of Llandudno's not that bad. In fact, I have a soft spot for Rhyl and Towyn. Leave them alone! :evil:

Llandudno has three supreme qualities
It's location, aspect
its grid plan
the quality of the architecture

This http://www.venuecymru.co.uk/home.php?/Info/Venue_Cymru_History is why I think they made a huge mistake foregoing 'quality' for 'in keeping' architecture. A pig of a building in a wonderful micro-city?

Spot on. An opportunity for a real landmark building was sadly missed there. I don't even like it inside, the best bit being that old chestnut of not being able to see the awful exterior. I think Theatr Clwyd in Mold is much more interesting (even if it look dull next to the mentalist Shire/County Hall).

There's nothing wrong with the coast east of Llandudno at all, it's just seems to be less of a draw than it was just 20 years ago. The problems are manifold, but stuff that sticks in my mind are what happened to Ffrith Beach in Prestatyn (a trip there was the highlight of my summer as a nipper), that crap they built built on the promenade at Rhyl, and even the Black Cat in Towyn looking like a uPVC showroom these days.

There's nothing wrong with "awfull caravan sites" by the way - us povs have got to have somewhere to go on holiday.

Absolutely. I am being frustrated in my need to find a 'static home' round there at this very moment!.. and the bloody North Wales tourism people couldn't help!

We need MORE!

Llandudno has three supreme qualities
It's location, aspect
its grid plan
the quality of the architecture

This http://www.venuecymru.co.uk/home.php?/Info/Venue_Cymru_History is why I think they made a huge mistake foregoing 'quality' for 'in keeping' architecture. A pig of a building in a wonderful micro-city?

Anyone got any photos of Llandudno? From your discription sounds like a nice place, and quite urban for it's size.

^^

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6d/Llandudno-P6180235.JPG/800px-Llandudno-P6180235.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/12/Llandudno1-P7230365T.JPG/800px-Llandudno1-P7230365T.JPG

Well here are the pics i took, dont forget that Conwy is about 5 mins away.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/sandraanstiss/175.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/sandraanstiss/185.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/sandraanstiss/194.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/sandraanstiss/183.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/sandraanstiss/198.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/sandraanstiss/1102.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/sandraanstiss/1103.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/sandraanstiss/1101.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s243/sandraanstiss/1112.jpg

^^ Yes, Conwy is nice

http://castles.draconian.com/images/conwy_castle2.jpg

http://www.anglesey.info/Conwy%20Town%20210705.jpg

http://www.webbaviation.co.uk/gallery/d/6963-1/conwy-aerial-aa03281b.jpg

Conwy is great because you can walk around the entire length of the city walls, which gives it a historic character thats hard to beat.

Nice pics Jonesy.

That is what I meant when I said Llandudno should view itself as a micro-city (Nice) rather than simply a holiday resort.. in concept. Some proper apartments, up the density etc, then those small busines could thrive all year round. Actually, one of the main differnces between Llandudno and Rhyl is not so much the architecture etc but in the path each resort chose when seaside destinations started to fade across the UK.. Llandudno went with their entrepreneurs, looked at niche markets and something differnt, with quality, whilst Rhyl went down the public hand out route.. which leads to inevitable decline and a public realm and retail offer exactly the same as every shithole town in the country!

Also!

Has anybody got any of the less well developed West side? There are some really good 60s' looking seaside houses on the stretch between Llandudno and Conwy, by the old Daily Post offices... any pics of these? Nothing spectacular, just houses after all, but nice, sort of different!

You seem very passionate Tony!

all i can say North Wales= very very nice, although whats the water like? (cold yes i gathered that) does anyone go in it (a strange question i know)

I do like the area and as an urbanist have longed loved the potential of Llandudno .. and of course, it is just down the road!


Loads of people go into the sea, but I think they are all masochists!

Llandudno is good. And Conway (well, we're speaking English aren't we?) must be one of the very most charming small towns in Prydain.

I see sebo, that makes sense. Some nicely considered views!

mae conwy ydy conwy paid y dweud conway

It was only a joke about the spelling of Conwy, Stew, implicit I hoped in my daft reversion to Welsh at the end of the sentence. No offense.

I do like the area and as an urbanist have longed loved the potential of Llandudno .. and of course, it is just down the road!


Loads of people go into the sea, but I think they are all masochists!

good! i dont want to look like a freak if i was the only one in the water... whats the point of going to the beach if you can't go into the sea!

not at all awayo, its nice to have the area in a spotlight for a bit at least.

In terms of buildings, apart from the theatre extension the two most significant things to happen in the town where the creation of parc llandudno shopping centre by re-locating asda and also the fire at the grand hotel (where much of the film 'yanks' with richard gere was set) which destroyed a large part of the historic theatre.

There are very tight rules which govern how buildings must look, right down to the use of pastel colours etc especially along the 'sweep'.

Some beautiful photos of North Wales guys!

http://www.webbaviation.co.uk/gallery/d/6963-1/conwy-aerial-aa03281b.jpg



I can see my house!

And I agree, I love Llandudno, even though it's relatively small, it has this big and busy feeling to it, but not overwhelmingly so.

That's what I meant by good urbanism. You do not have to be a giant city to claim this quality. Just look at some of the small towns in Italy and Spain for example... vibrant! Lots to do in North wales though.. but at least the potential is there?

Ok, some pictures from in and around Bangor - where I'm at Uni there.

The view from the pier
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/138/323045605_b1e812f3c6.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/130/323046201_a532115483.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/123/323046162_d85e0e2023.jpg?v=0

The mountains in Winter

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/137/322195152_6dc5f4da6f.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/132/322194932_07983ae73e.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/139/322194994_ec43d1d1c4.jpg?v=0

The Main Arts Building at the University - the 2 buildings in the foreground (Students Union building and Theatr Gwynedd) are being demolished next summer and a new Bangor Arts and Students Centre is being built in it's place - although the plans for it are still being thrashed out between the Uni and Bangor Council (who runs Theatr Gwynedd).

http://images.kodakgallery.eu.com/photos129/7/83/43/26/89/0/89264383733_0_ALB.jpg

http://images.kodakgallery.eu.com/photos129/7/83/43/97/69/0/69974383733_0_ALB.jpg

http://images.kodakgallery.eu.com/photos129/7/83/43/57/43/0/43574383733_0_ALB.jpg

The University itself is now following a new '10 year accomodation masterplan' which will change the face of the town. They're just finished the new Environment Centre for Wales and they're currently building new Students Halls of Residences on their main site. Once these are built, they'll close down their secondary accomodation site which will probably be sold off to developers.

They're also building a new management training and conference centre at the Uni and then there's the 'will they/wont they' issue of moving the current IT and Maths department from it's current base about 5 mins away from the other science dept into the main cluster. There's no room for them though and the Maths department was actually due to close down soon due to falling numbers of students - but this year The Times uni guide said it was the 5th best maths department in the country so they're now rethinking that decision as well.

The other non-Uni related developments in Bangor involve the shopping centre.

They're currently rebuilding the middle of the shopping centre to attract better stores. Debenhams will be moving into a new much bigger store there than the one they've got currently in Bangor and the only other names I've heard mentioned coming to Bangor cos of the new centre is a new WH Smiths Entertainment store (just sells music, videos etc.) and River Island.

Between the shopping centre and the railway station is the football ground of Bangor City FC. They're moving out to a new stadium on the Menai Straits at the start of the 2008/2009 season and the old ground will then be redeveloped. There's currently 2 different plans from the same developers for the site. Option 1 will see if become an entertainment district with a cinema, bowling alley, bingo hall and assorted fast food places, option 2 will be more shops - a kind of out of town shopping centre in the middle of Bangor. As Bangor currently doesn't have a cinema or bowling alley etc. at the moment, option 1 would make more sense but the only fly in the ointment is that recently another developer got permission to build all that stuff on another site on the outskirts of Bangor between the city and the A55. As the other developer could move onto the site straight away as it's an old disused warehouse, he could build he stuff there before the city centre site is even vacant.

Great pics. Ta. :cheers:

Any pics of the new Debenhams and shops in that area? How about Victoria Quay in Caernarfon?

Thanks in anticipation. :)

Compared to Caernarfon and Llandudno, Bangor is no beauty but the High Street has some interesting pubs/bars and I like the Penrhos area in Upper Bangor.

I can't see the last three pics of the town and the university. Any chance you can re-post them?

Repost as requested:

The Main Arts Building at the University - the 2 buildings in the foreground (Students Union building and Theatr Gwynedd) are being demolished next summer and a new Bangor Arts and Students Centre is being built in it's place - although the plans for it are still being thrashed out between the Uni and Bangor Council (who runs Theatr Gwynedd).

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1427/1257762963_d3aedfb9a5.jpg?v=0
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1102/1257762941_50938a4af9.jpg?v=0
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1103/1257762931_2430ff8792.jpg?v=0

Great pics. Ta. :cheers:

Any pics of the new Debenhams and shops in that area? How about Victoria Quay in Caernarfon?

Thanks in anticipation. :)

Compared to Caernarfon and Llandudno, Bangor is no beauty but the High Street has some interesting pubs/bars and I like the Penrhos area in Upper Bangor.

Sorry - I'm not in Bangor at the mo (although I'll be going back in about 2 weeks so I'll get some update photo's then).

There's a very out of date and I don't think ever actually launched website for the new centre at http://www.bangorretail.co.uk - don't believe the picture on the site cos it's not like that at all anymore. That picture was the original plan for the site before Debenhams signed to become the anchor tenant and wanted it completely changed. The tower is gone and instead is a big green box with a huge display window instead. Debenhams are taking all the internal space and so all the other shops will be around the outside below the Debenhams store.

Someone at the developers might remember about the site soon and update it now that they're getting close to finishing and presumably want to attract more shops into the site?

This is what it'll look like

http://www.shepherd-gilmour.co.uk/images/bangor_marks_428jpg.jpg

Interesting. Thanks for posting those pics again. The old university buldings look beautiful and really accentuate the ugliness of the newer ones in the foreground.

Can't believe they're knocking down the union and theatre. Spent many a happy night shitfaced in there over the years. Apart from that, probably the coolest buildings in Bangor. I have some photos of them somewhere from when they were first built. Absolutely gorgeous! Still, they're in the "acceptability to the masses" limbo so get them bulldozed! We shall rid this nation of unfashionable architecture yet.

They're not knocking down the SU cos it's unsuitable architecture. They're knocking it down simply because it's no longer fit for purpose.

It was badly designed anyway - the main entrance is hidden round the back and it seems to have turned it's back on the main road and Bangor itself. It would cost far more to refurbish the building for just an 'okish' finish than it would to just knock the whole thing down and rebuild it from scratch and give the SU to building they actually want.

right

i have a confession to make. I've been to gogledd thrice in my life. Once with a chap who lived in Connah's Quay that I'm sure Stewgog would have had interesting conversations with and once when I flew into Caernarfon (the RAF gave us a wicked display of dogfighting over Snowdonia on the way in) and once as part of the three peaks challenge

after saeeing those pics, i'm pretty sure I'll be heading north by northwest pretty soon. the place looks idyllic (and it'll give me a chance to practice my welsh too!) Llandudno looks just so amazing it really does.

must remember: siarad yn araf, helpu fi os gwelwch yn dda dw'in dysgwyr

or something similar....

Someone mentioned Rhyl earlier on in this thread

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6968961.stm

End of an era for Rhyl's funfair

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42817000/jpg/_42817453_oceanbeachnight203other.jpg
Work on the new development was due to start at the end of 2007

The historic funfair at Rhyl, Denbighshire, has opened its doors for the last time.

The seafront funfair, which dates back to the 1890s, will be demolished to make way for an £85m development with apartments, cafes and pubs.

I do like the area and as an urbanist have longed loved the potential of Llandudno .. and of course, it is just down the road!


I love Llandudno. I must have been there at least 60 times. When I was a child we went there several times a year. My mother and father's family did too, before I was born. I used to cry driving over the little Orme, looking back as the Grea Orme disappeared from view.

I've been living in the South East for quite a while now, but I've taken my southern wife to Llandudno around 8 times already. She considers it a form of 'home' now too.

Any, to get to the point - we took some friends from London (him from there, her from Croatia) and two friends who were over from Croatia, to Llandudno. They loved it too. The Croatians remarked how they didn't realise there was anywhere like this in Britain. Driving around the front of the Orme in the sun, seeing the Mountains of Snowdownia come into view, they said it was like the mediterranean. I've been over the Croatia myself a fair few times. The Adriatic coast is spectacular, and to be fair, the North Welsh coast isn't quite the same, but... I could see what they meant.

Somebody remarked earlier that Llandudno should market itself almost as the North Welsh Nice (or a St. Tropez) - as a smart, elegant coastal resort. It certainly has the location, the scenery and especially the Orme. It has a great architectural legacy. It's got a lot going for it.

However, it has become something of an Eastbourne - a retirement town. Indeed, my parents are wanting to retire to Llandudno or Deganwy next year. It needs a bit of life injected, but that has to be done carefully. It needs more restaurants and boutiques rather than pubs. It does have some of these already though to be fair.

Of course, Llandudno's biggest problem is the sea level. The main part of town seems very, very vulnerable to a rising sea level.

http://www.deganwycastlehotel.com/images/LLANDUDNO%20BAY%20FROM%20%20GT%20OR_2.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/GOT_Tram_5_Ascending_05-07-17_10.jpeg/800px-GOT_Tram_5_Ascending_05-07-17_10.jpeg

http://www.robbo39.worldonline.co.uk/rwbns/slides/rd0799.jpg

http://www.bakerlite.co.uk/pics/Wales/North%20Wales/Llandudno/llandudno6.jpg

Working out dates and that, it is not impossible that I was conceived in Llandudno. I'll not ask my mum and dad though. Eeeh. Some things are best unknown.

I was on that tram just a few days ago !!!

Dec 24 2007
Liza Williams
Liverpool Daily Post

PLANS to electrify the line linking Wirral and North Wales have gained the financial support of the Welsh Assembly. It has been confirmed that the body will help fund an engineering survey, currently underway, bringing modernisation of the line a step closer.

The results of the Grip 3 survey will be announced in March, pushing forward the plans which councillors hope could bring new job opportunities to the people of Wirral. Electrifying the line could see journey times halved, meaning the commute from Wirral to Wales would be more manageable.

Areas such as Deeside, across the Welsh border, offer a range of employment opportunities from manufacturing to computing and Airbus UK’s factory in Broughton would also be of commuting distance.

Oxton councillor Stuart Kelly said: “It is such a positive development to have the assembly’s support. Electrification of the line would mean people from Wirral could commute to North Wales and improve their employment prospects. It is something we have been pushing for years and this is definitely a step in the right direction.

“Putting pressure at a high level for funding has paid off, we are very excited. It will assist the regeneration of areas in Wirral and we are also hoping for new stations so more residents can have easy access to the railway. Merseyrail has been great and are fully behind the modernisation.”

Merseyrail has been under pressure to electrify the railway line between Bidston and Wrexham for a number of years. “It currently takes a diesel train an hour to travel from North Wales, across South Wirral, to the Birkenhead station, at which point passengers then have to change to a Merseyrail electric service heading into Liverpool.

The operator has included the step in their 2011 transport plan.

Wirral council cabinet member for transport Jean Quin said: “The main reason we want electrification is access to employment for our constituents. People will be able to travel to work in Deeside from Birkenhead, and also people living in North Wales will gain better access to Wirral and Liverpool.”

The survey will be presented to Wirral Council’s Merseyside Strategic Transportation Planning Committee in three months. The project could also lead to new stations at Woodchurch and possibly at Beechwood in Wirral, and Deeside.

lizawilliams



For those of you who don't know, 'Wirral' is a metropolitan borough council comprising the towns of Birkenhead, Wallasey and West Kirby. Paradoxically it has some of the poorest people in the metropolitan area and some of the richest (mostly found on the west side of the peninsular).

Ok, time to resurrect this thread with this:


New art centre to replace Theatr Gwynedd a step closer
http://icnorthwales.icnetwork.co.uk/bangorandangleseymail/tm_headline=new-art-centre-to-replace-theatr-gwynedd-a-step-closer%26method=full%26objectid=20469995%26siteid=50142-name_page.html

A NEW arts and innovation centre to replace Theatr Gwynedd and the Students’ Union building in Bangor have moved a step closer.

Capita Percy Thomas, a company well- known for designing buildings such as the Wales Millennium Centre, "artsdepot" in London, and the Yi Cheng International Theatre in China, have been selected as architects to produce a feasibility study into the new centre.

The ambitious plans to develop a multi- million pound centre were announced by Bangor University and Theatr Gwynedd last year.

However, there have been concerns, following a union claim that a new venue may not be built for five years.

Bangor University’s director of estates, Mike Goodwin said: "The feasibility study will examine the possibilities in more detail and establish the full cost of the project.

"It will also lead to a design concept being developed which we expect to be ready by the summer."

The new building will be constructed on the site of Theatr Gwynedd and the Students’ Union and could include, not only theatre space, but also performance workshops and other areas for use by professional performance artists, the local community and the university.

The project also includes a new Students’ Union together with teaching and social learning areas that will be used by both the university and the local community together with space for student support services.

Janet Roberts, chair of the Theatr Gwynedd management board, said: "For a long time, we have wanted to make the theatre more accessible to a larger number of people and a new building will allow us to expand our provision, as well as continuing to provide great entertainment for our existing customers."

During the summer of 2006, the university agreed in consultation with the Arts Council and Theatr Gwynedd to remedy some of the more urgent defects in the existing building at a cost of over £250,000, funded primarily by the Arts Council.

But it has come apparent that a new building is now the best and most cost- effective way forward.

"This will be a wonderful asset for Bangor and the surrounding area as in addition to benefiting local people, it will also attract visitors, tourism and more customers for local businesses," added Ms Roberts.

As previously announced, the timescale for the new development will see the current Theatr Gwynedd close this autumn.

During the period when the building is closed, the theatre aims to continue its programme by using other locations not only in the Bangor area, but also on Anglesey.

Dafydd Thomas, theatre director, said: "We are working hard to develop a range of programmes that will use existing facilities in the area. "Our intention is to introduce the theatre and performing arts to new audiences such as local schools and communities as well as our existing customers.

"This would enable us to raise awareness of the arts in the area in preparation for the opening of the new facilities."

Meri Huws, vice-chancellor of Bangor University, said: "This has the potential to become one of the most exciting initiatives of its kind in Wales, and we’re keen to hear what the local community would like to see in the new development."

"So, if you’re involved in drama, dance, music or any other performance art, let us know what you’d like to see in the new development."

Letters should be sent to Meri Huws, Bangor University, College Road, Bangor, LL57 2DG.

This is what it'll look like

http://www.shepherd-gilmour.co.uk/images/bangor_marks_428jpg.jpg

6 Months behind schedule, but Debenhams finally moved into the new shopping centre this week.

Unfortunately, I wont be back in Bangor until May now so I've no idea what the new centre actually looks like in real life.

that pic of llandudno is it? the one with the tram anywho...lovely

The new centre looks better in the flesh then on that picture, not great but not, a McCentre really.

I went on holiday to Aberystwyth and Llanberis a few weeks ago so was in and out of Bangor a few times, it's a bit grotty compared to Caenarvon and Llandudno isnt it really?

Shame the footie club is moving out of town, but a new cinema and entertainment complex might do wonders for the city.

Anyway the reason I came here was I'd heard Ryhl has 3 of the most 5 deprived wards in Wales. Particually the area near the sea front and station. Is this true from people who know the town better then me? Im really surprised that it is.

Rhyl is a traditional dumping ground for many of north-west England's undesirables. Sort of a Costa del Giro.

Not surprsied as Rhyl has the lowest life-expectancy in the UK, along with Liverpool and Middlesbrough.

Rhyl is a traditional dumping ground for many of north-west England's undesirables. Sort of a Costa del Giro.

Ah similar to Blackpool then? People move their to actually be on the dole because they can get cheap bedsits and would rather be by the sea then in Liverpool/Manchester etc?

Here's a report about Eagle's Meadow in Wrexham from the Beeb.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7626239.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/7625447.stm

We haven't heard too much about this one. Come on Gogs, don't be shy, let us know what's going on Oop North.

Ah similar to Blackpool then? People move their to actually be on the dole because they can get cheap bedsits and would rather be by the sea then in Liverpool/Manchester etc?

That is true of Blackpool, it imports alot of undesirables (as do alot of sea side towns including those in Cornwall).

I would look to put a giant asbo on them, so that we clean Blackpool up from people who have no intention of working and just want to engage in acts of anti social or criminal behaviour.

So, more details of the proposed new Arts Centre of Bangor have been released. Although it's still in the 'conceptual' stage but the Theatre that it's replacing is closing down soon now.

Not actually sure I like the design anyway.


New Arts and Innovation Centre for Bangor
http://www.bangor.ac.uk/artsandinnovation/
http://www.bangor.ac.uk/artsandinnovation/images/arts1-540.jpg

Plans for an exciting and ambitious new Arts and Innovation Centre to replace the Theatr Gwynedd and the Students’ Union buildings in Bangor have been announced by Bangor University.

Options ranging in cost between £25m to £30m have been developed by the architects of the award-winning Wales Millennium Centre, Capita Percy Thomas.

It will include greatly improved arts facilities for the whole community including a theatre, lecture theatres, exhibition spaces, bar and café. There is also provision for an external amphitheatre that could be used for some performances.

Amongst the options being considered is the possibility of providing a flexible link that will allow the theatre to expand into a 900 seat auditorium for some performances by combining it with a lecture theatre located above.

The building will include a Music Innovation Centre incorporating a multimedia performance area with the latest sound and visualisation technology.

The arts and creative industries will be able to work side-by-side with science and technology experts to develop innovative performances as well as new skills and jobs in the local area.

Other facilities will include a replacement nightclub and Students’ Union for the University as well as a variety of new teaching and learning spaces incorporating wireless internet access which will be available for the local community as well as the University.

Although the designs are in concept form at the moment, the University would like to hear what local people would like to see happening in the new building.

Deputy Vice-Chancellor of Bangor University, Professor Fergus Lowe said: “This is a tremendously exciting project and is one of the most exciting initiatives of its kind in Wales. We’re keen to hear what the local community would like to see in the new development. So if you’re involved in drama, dance, music or any other performance art, let us know what you’d like to see happening in the new development.”

Letters should be sent to: Fergus Lowe, Bangor University, College Road, Bangor, LL57 2DG or email: artsandinnovation@bangor.ac.uk

Professor Lowe added: “As previously announced, the timescale for the new development will see the current Theatr Gwynedd building closing in the autumn of 2008, and now that the feasibility study has been completed on schedule, building could start as early as 18 months from now and be opened in late 2011, given the availability of funding.”

well this is an good idea to have an thread on mountains and beaches etc. This is an good innovtive thinking to know about them. Well befoere investing on any type of property it is should known that the prices are decreading and expected to decrease more in new year.

I'm surprised no-one's yet commented on the opening of the Eagle's Meadow (http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northeast/sites/wrexham_town/pages/eaglesmeadow.shtml) centre in Wrexham...

Im not liking the designs for the new theatre in bangor, also wheres the student union?

That's a good question about the Students Union. Officially, the services from the SU will be provided within the new Arts and Innovation Centre (which was, originally, called the 'Arts and Student Centre') but, from talking to a few friends of mine within the SU, they've not exactly been consulted over what they actually want from the new building. It seems the University and the council is trying to force this through without much consultation....

Anyway, some other exciting news from North Wales about the Welsh Highland Railway reopening between Caernarfon and Porthmadog.


02-02-09
The Ffestiniog Railway today announced its plans for opening the remaining sections of the Welsh Highland Railway to full public service.

The Welsh Highland Railway is a £28m project to reinstate railway communication between Caernarfon and Porthmadog across the Snowdonia National Park. It has been reopened in stages, and now runs from Caernarfon to Rhyd Ddu on the southern slopes of Snowdon. The remaining sections of the railway from Rhyd Ddu to Porthmadog Harbour have been rebuilt over the last four years.

The section from Rhyd Ddu to Beddgelert will open on 7th April 2009 to full public service. This will be extended from Beddgelert to a temporary station at Hen Hafod (about a mile south of Nantmor) on 21st May, and to Porthmadog after the summer peak season.

The Ffestiniog Railway is pleased to have been able to bring forward its proposals to open the railway through the Aberglaslyn pass (described by the National Trust as the best scenery in Britain), but regrets that the opening through to Porthmadog has had to be postponed due to delays in letting the final commissioning contracts. This contract delay has been caused by the delays in receiving payment from another party for work carried out on their behalf last year by Ffestiniog Railway on repairing flood damage alongside the Welsh Highland Railway.

The railway is substantially complete throughout and will be used by test and special trains in the meantime.

The Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways are a major attraction in North Wales. A recent University study indicates that the Railways in their present form support over 350 full time local jobs, and that the extension when fully open will support a further 70 long term local jobs. These figures are in addition to the Railway's own employees.

And, a quick followup to the story about the extension of the WHR.


Golden bolts seal new rail line
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/7916058.stm

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45520000/jpg/_45520789_aberglaslyn512.jpg
The train runs through the magnificent Aberglaslyn Pass

The installation of golden bolts will mark the final connection in a new narrow gauge railway across Snowdonia. The ceremony at the Harbour Station in Porthmadog is being heralded as a significant milestone in the £28m Welsh Highland Railway development.

The reopening of the 25 mile (40 km) line to Caernarfon has been delayed over the claimed non-payment of a bill. The company said that had been "almost" resolved and passengers will be able to travel the whole line in the autumn.

General manager Paul Lewin said Saturday's bolt-joining ceremony marked the culmination of 10 years' effort by nearly 1,000 volunteers who, split into teams, have done the lion's share of laying the track.

Representatives from the teams will install the final golden bolts in the track.

The teams work alternate weekends - the Black Hand Gang is made up of mainly Welsh-speaking locals while the Rest of the World Gang consists of volunteers living throughout the UK and beyond.

As well as the track, the £28m funding drawn from public and private backers is also paying for the trains which will run on it.

Once the connection is made the firm's latest locomotive, newly restored at its Boston Lodge works, will make the first movement on the new section of line. It will be positioned with original Ffestiniog Railway locomotives which were built at the same works more than a century ago.

The Welsh Highland Railway is opening from Caernarfon to Porthmadog, where it will join the Ffestiniog line from Porthmadog to Blaenau Ffestiniog. When complete it will be the longest independent railway in the UK.

Mr Lewin said public services were scheduled to begin from Caernarfon to Beddgelert on 8 April. The service will extend through the Aberglaslyn Pass to Hen Hafod on 21 May and finally go through to Porthmadog once the summer peak season is over.

More than 250,000 visitors a year currently travel on the two railways.

Mr Lewin said talks about a £250,000 unpaid bill had now been "almost resolved" and he was confident the railway would be completed by the autumn. Mike Hart, chairman of Welsh Highland Construction, the subsidiary company of the Ffestiniog Railway building the new line said: "This is a very proud moment for the many people that have worked so hard to make this dream a reality."

"Our volunteers and staff have worked in all weathers and against seemingly overwhelming odds at times to reach this landmark."

Shame its not going to be finished in Summer or I might have made another trip to Wales for my summer hols. Does anyone know if the new extention will be covered in the N.Wales rover ticket like the Ffestiniog railway is?

old i know but, bangor's new ground

http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=C07A/0594/11/LL&theTabNo=3&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=46371%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href=%27wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=150185%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID:asc%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=46371%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%27%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a

old i know but, bangor's new ground

http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=C07A/0594/11/LL&theTabNo=3&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=46371%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href=%27wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=150185%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID:asc%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=46371%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%27%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a

By the looks of it, it seems it's about a 3000 capacity, with 800 seats. In my opinion, Bangor deserve better. They could be a big club, and with the WPL going to a ten team format in the next 2-3 years, I'd expect crowds to rise.

Of most importance is the need to be able to hold european games at home, and I dont think 800 seats is enough for that.

Also, how far out of Bangor City centre is this?

edit

By the looks of it, it seems it's about a 3000 capacity, with 800 seats. In my opinion, Bangor deserve better. They could be a big club, and with the WPL going to a ten team format in the next 2-3 years, I'd expect crowds to rise.

Of most importance is the need to be able to hold european games at home, and I dont think 800 seats is enough for that.

Also, how far out of Bangor City centre is this?

bout 10mins walk from there old ground id say, maybe a bit longer

They were originally going to build a 5000 seater suitable for european games - but then decided to scale it back to begin with and maybe extend it if needed later on.

At the moment though the whole project has stalled because the developers can't get anyone interested in taking units in their new shopping centre on the old football ground site - in fact, I think Bangor City FC and the local council have just spent MORE money on Farrar Road (the existing ground) to make sure it's meets the WPL requirements for stadiums so that Bangor doesn't get chucked out of the league.

Is Bangor quite a lively place? I imagien it is, with charms of being a smaller town, but with a big university population..Is there much conflict between town and gown?

I've always thought the city could carve out a niche for itself as principle city in north-west Wales, which is culturally and geographically a very interesting area..Perhaps a kind of Killarney of north Wales!?

Bangor isn't a lively place - unless your definition of 'lively' is students filling a few pubs during term time, and there is a definite 'town' and 'gown' thing going on. Upper Bangor has some decent houses and the High Street where the shops and pubs are located isn't unpleasant but that's about it. Bangor is the main commercial centre for this part of Wales - so it has its share of retail sheds, especially on the road to Caernarfon where there is an excellent Tesco Extra that is a Godsend. A few of the academics who work at the uni live in places like Menai Bridge and Beaumaris which are nearby (the other side of the Menai Strait). Beaumaris is the local centre for people who are into yachting. Caernarfon is a more attractive place than Bangor and Welsh is the dominant language in the town. If you fancy an experience that has parallels with the Valleys (but with slate instead of coal as the extinct industry) drive over to Deiniolen. I think it has more pubs (2) than shops (1). Llanberis for Snowdon is an easy drive away. All the places I have mentioned are linked to Bangor by bus. Bangor is the kind of place that locals (people in the surrounding area) use to shop but not for a night out. In a nutshell, I prefer Caernarfon!

There's definately a growing problem with the 'town v gown' issue in Bangor. If you go to a Uni open day they still proudly claim that Bangor is one of the safest places in the country still - but over the last few years, esp on a Friday night there's been a growing problem with the locals fighting the students. Actually it's not the 'local-local' so much (ie the ones that live in Bangor) it's more the locals from the surrounding villages who come into town for the night and some of them do deliberately go around looking for fights with students.

However, there is also a problem with generally a lot of the locals in Bangor are starting to blame the Students and the University for all the problems in the town. The High Street at the moment is terrible with lots of empty shops - even the shiny new shopping centre is less than 50% full almost a year after it opened. Most of the developments in the town are new student halls of residence (both 'official' University ones and privately built and run halls) and a lot of the locals are asking why there's so much of that being built but no 'normal' homes or apartments for locals and they do have a point. At the moment the town probably does, proportionally speaking, rely too much on the students which means that it's completely dead out of term time. In fact, for shopping you're probably better going to Llandudno - at least they have a bookshop now which Bangor doesn't anymore (and it's probably the only University town in the country to NOT have a bookshop)

It's also a bit of a cultural desert now - the Theatre has closed, the Cinema closed down years ago and since then there's been plans for 2 new multiplexes - both of which has fallen through. One, on the outskirts of town and which the developer claimed had already got an agreement with a multiplex company to run fell through because the council was supporting the *other* multiplex (which is in the city centre) so wouldn't support that one, and the other, which was supported by the council, was meant to go on the site of the football ground but the last time I checked the cinema had now morphed into a Bingo hall - and that's if it actually get's built at all.

To make matters worse, over in Anglesey just on the other side of the Menai Straits the council there have given permission for a huge new retail and leisure complex which will have a cinema in it if it goes ahead - so if that happens there's no-way that Bangor will get new one because it'll be too close to that one. That complex has just been called in a PI though by the Welsh Government because it's not following the local plan for Anglesey and will probably also have huge negative knock-on effects to similar plans in Holyhead.

I agree about Llandudno. I like the Conwy - Llandudno - Rhos-on-Sea - Colwyn Bay 'metro' area. There's a lot more going on there than meets the eye (holiday makers and retired English people). Definitely one to watch.

What do you think of Caernarfon? Have you been to Galeri Caernarfon at the old Victoria Dock? There seems to a concerted attempt to help the town lift its game (like Bangor, empty shops are not uncommon).

For me, the off-putting thing about Bangor is that it doesn't seem to coalesce. There's the uni, the High Street, the pier, the retail sheds etc - all somehow disconnected from each other.

It should be so much more but where's the money coming from to take it up a gear? If the university pulled out what would happen to it? It's not exactly a tourist hotspot, and there are far more attractive places nearby. Let's face it, it's not a pretty city.

Here's a link to the Galeri Caernarfon for anyone who is interested:

http://www.galericaernarfon.com/eng/centre.aspx

Here it is in Welsh:

http://www.galericaernarfon.com/cym/centre.aspx?

Vandals delay Snowdonia train relaunch

Apr 8 2009 by Eryl Crump, Daily Post


THE first train into a Snowdonia village for more than 70 years was delayed by more than an hour after an attack by “nutter” vandals. Police were called to the Welsh Highland Railway (WHR) at Rhyd Ddu after damage was caused to telephone equipment and the station building yesterday morning.

A railway token, which engine drivers need as their pass to use a stretch of line, was also stolen. The damage caused the first passenger train along the new four-mile section from Rhyd Ddu to Beddgelert to be delayed while the line was checked for any other vandalism, and a new token made.

One guest, Welsh Assembly presiding officer Lord Dafydd Elis Thomas, branded the vandals “irresponsible nutters”. Environmental campaigners, who staged their own protest, said they deplored the vandals’ action. WHR general manager Paul Lewin said: “I’m disappointed the vandalism occurred. We respect the right of people to protest but there is no excuse for vandalism. “The damage caused us problems this morning. We had staff walk the entire length of the line to check for damage and a new token was created for use on this section.” He added the train will reduce the number of cars in the area by carrying more tourists into the Snowdonia National Park.

Jacky Fell of protest group Gwarchod said: “The damage had nothing to do with us. We staged our own protest near the campsite in Beddgelert. “Our view is that the reopening of the Welsh Highland Railway is completely unnecessary. It’s an intrusive hobby for a few people which is damaging the environment of Snowdonia.” A small group of protesters waved placards as the train ran past. But they were easily outnumbered by railway enthusiasts and locals who lined the route to take photos or just wave.
One rail fan said: “It was a huge undertaking to reopen the line, but its happened and trains are running.”

The 23-mile two-foot gauge WHR from Dinas, near Caernarfon, to Porthmadog was completed in 1923, but closed in 1936 after years of financial difficulties.

One of yesterday’s passengers remembered catching the train from Rhyd Ddu as a schoolboy. John Pritchard, 93, said he would be allowed out of the village primary school early to catch the train to his gran’s house. The retired farmer said: “I would only be allowed to go if I had been a good boy. I’d look forward to the trip very much. We’d only be going about a mile and a half to Hafod Wydr. I’ve been looking forward to this day for a long time.” During the 1990s the Ffestiniog Railway assumed responsibility for restoring the line and the track has been relayed in sections. Trains have run as far as Rhyd Ddu since 2003.

After European Union funding was secured in 2005 work started to relay the final 13 miles through Beddgelert and the Aberglaslyn Pass to Porthmadog. From the town’s Harbour Station passengers will be able to link with trains to Blaenau Ffestiniog, making a 40-mile journey through the heart of Snowdonia a possibility. Regular services between Rhyd Ddu and Beddgelert start today with three trains running most days along the 17-mile long line from Caernarfon. Services will extend through the Aberglaslyn Pass late next month and on to Porthmadog by the end of the year.

Last night North Wales Police launched an appeal for information to the incident. A spokeswoman said the offence is believed to have happened sometime between 3pm on Monday and 9.30am yesterday.

In many ways this story is indicative of how this part of NW Wales is being shoved into chocolate box land. There used to be a direct line (standard gauge) all the way from Bangor via Caernarfon to Pwllheli enabling people to move about North Wales and NW England with ease. This new line is for tourists only. Beddgelert (Where Prince Llewelyn killed his favourite hound, Gelert) demonstrates this more than anywhere else. There's a whole row of cottages built in traditional style but they are all holiday lets. The village is dead when the season is over. Maybe it's a case of better this than nothing but the villages along the former railway route are stlll there - dying on their feet.

I've read snippets about the mountain railway but assumed that it would be used for commuting as well as being a tourist attraction. Is it right that it's purely for tourists? Did it attract public money? I'm sure there must be a substantial number of transport schemes in north west Wales that may actually increase opportunities for the residents rather than this?

I agree about chocolate box land. No doubt the slopes of Snowdonia will be landscaped soon.

The railway is staffed largely by volunteers. Here is the timetable for 2009:

http://whr.bangor.ac.uk/2009_WHR_Approved_Timetable.pdf

I don't think it would be much use to commuters. When it reaches Porthmadog people will be able, in theory, to connect to National Rail (the snail train from Pwllheli to Shrewsbury) but if you live somewhere like Caernarfon, it's much faster to drive into Bangor and catch a train from there.

On the plus side a miniature railway will bring more tourists into Caernarfon (it's not exactly struggling at the moment in that direction - the car park next to the river Afon by the castle does a good trade in coaches most days). It seems that for much of this part of Wales tourism and cottage industries are the only option. I think Caernarfon should be the centre for Welsh language learning in Wales (given that it's the dominant local language). There wouldn't be any problem finding local Welsh speakers to take English speakers in whilst they are doing a 'Speak Fluent Welsh in a Week' course. Should be able to get 15 - 30 extra jobs out of that! It doesn't sound much but in this part of the world every job counts. :)

There's now a group on facebook titled The citizens of bangor deserve better. It was set up by locals and has over a thousand members, theres already been a protest march and theres meetings and open nights being set up aswell

^^
This appeared in the local paper owned by Trinity Mirror North West:

Hundreds march in protest for better Bangor

Mar 25 2009 By Eryl Crump

MORE than 200 people marched through the streets of Bangor on Saturday calling for better facilities in the city. The protest, called The Citizens of Bangor Deserve Better, claimed Gwynedd's most populated area is not being treated fairly by Gwynedd Council. These claims have been rejected by council leaders.

Many shoppers agreed with the protestors but others said they were "wasting their breath". Group spokesman Nigel Pickavance said: "We are protesting because of the lack of facilities for children, the lack of quality developments in the city and the streets are in poor condition. But enough is enough. If we don't do anything the city will die."He said more than 50 shops lie empty along the mile-long High Street and the city lost out on a multiplex cinema and a proper sports facilities. All we see being built here are more facilities for students at the university."

The march ended with a rally on the steps of Canolfan Menai, the city’s latest shopping centre. It called for the people Bangor to be an "equal partner" in all decisions taken by the authorities. Shoppers applauded the march at the city clock. One said: "Bangor certainly needs a good spring clean. The council can do more to help."

But former city mayor Geraint Roberts said many of the group’s demands had already been considered by the council. "We’ve already tried what they claim to want but there was little support from residents," said Mr Roberts.
Gwynedd Council leader Dyfed Edwards rejected claims the authority was ignoring the city. He said: "The newly formed Bangor Pride partnership has held its first meetings where a number of both public and private sector agencies have agreed to work together for the benefit of the city. Bangor is leading the way in this sense as it is the first scheme of its type in Gwynedd. The aim is to help turn around the local perception the city is run down, dirty and neglected."

Mr Edwards added several groups had already joined the project . The chairman of Bangor Pride, city mayor and Gwynedd councillor, John Wynn Jones, said: "There is now a determination by all the groups involved to work together to improve the image of the city and to restore public pride in its environment. Everybody who lives and works in Bangor is invited to join in and play their part."

Cllr June Marshall, who is also a member of the Bangor Business Forum, has also welcomed the new scheme. She said: "Bangor is already the local centre for many thousands of shoppers and visitors who enjoy our wide range of shops, cafes and other attractions."

Following the protest the following was announced:

Millions to be invested into Bangor city centre

Apr 8 2009 By David Jones

TOWN centres across Gwynedd are set for a multi-million pound facelift to boost trade and help retailers during the recession. Concern has mounted about the comparatively high numbers of vacant properties in key towns. Millions of pounds in European Convergence funds are being sought for three major projects that will enhance Bangor, Caernarfon and Blaenau Ffestiniog town centres – in a bid to encourage more shoppers to use them.

Gwynedd Council is also aiming to implement a range of smaller-scale improvements in tandem with local business to promote and enhance town centres. And it is considering ways in which it can support local firms struggling to get funding from the banks – possibly by setting up some form of local loan and investment fund itself.

A 34-point economic recovery action plan designed to help local businesses has been drawn up by the council. The plan – the first of its kind in North Wales – follows detailed discussions with the county’s business sector and proposals presented by the 450-member Gwynedd Business Network and other key partners.

Gwynedd council leader Cllr Dyfed Edwards said: "We are committed to doing everything we can to help businesses and our local workforce to ride out the recession. We have listened to the views and expertise of the Gwynedd business community and acted decisively to develop a detailed recovery plan which aims to provide practical and focused support." He said they would continue to lobby the Assembly to introduce further national measures. He added: "Gwynedd Council will also continue to lobby the Assembly Government to introduce further national measures. These include further business rates relief, a reduction in employer National Insurance contributions and applying pressure on the banks to start lending to businesses."

Sian M Williams, a partner Pwllheli-based accountants Griffith, Williams & Co and a member of the Gwynedd Business Network, said: "Despite the recession, Gwynedd remains a great place to do business and the private, public and third sector are working together to make sure that this continues. The Gwynedd Business Network has worked closely with the council to develop this detailed plan of action."

Cllr Dewi Lewis, who leads on the economy and regeneration, said: "Whilst we will be moving to deliver on this plan as a matter of urgency, the council is already working hard to support Gwynedd businesses.""Parking charges in all council-owned car parks have been frozen for 2009/10, we are speeding up the process of paying companies which supply Gwynedd Council with goods and services, and plans to improve the quality of Gwynedd’s town centres are being prioritised."

Asked how the authority and its partners will gauge the success of the action plan and whether any targets were being set, Cllr Lewis added: "I am not a great fan of targets. At the same time we have got to see results. It is about safeguarding existing jobs at the moment rather than creating new jobs." Iwan Trefor Jones, the council’s strategic director for development, said the plan sets out a series of short and medium term measures, but was also aimed at ensuring they will be able to respond positively to any future economic recovery. He said: "All town centres in the county have been affected by the recession and we are trying to bring forward measures that enhance the built environment and get vibrancy back into the town centres." The authority was keen to maximise the value public sector contracts could have for local supply chains, he added.

Bangor University, Ysbyty Gwynedd, Snowdonia National Park, the Environment Agency and the council itself were all important employers with significant budgets. It would be important to ensure local suppliers had the capacity to meet client requirements. Confirmation is expected shortly on whether the county has been successful in bids for EU Convergence funds. These would pay for a £3.75m project to upgrade Bangor city centre, a £2.5m project in Caernarfon that will extend recent environmental improvements around the Maes to other commercial areas within the town centre including Stryd Llyn, Bont Bridd and Ffordd Bangor, and a project estimated at £3m to brighten up Blaenau Ffestiniog town centre.

Sioned Williams, Gwynedd’s head of economic and regeneration services, said: "There are other measures that will involve less in terms of cash but more in terms of changes to work arrangements. We are taking practical steps to create the right business environment in which to support local businesses."

For further information about Gwynedd council support initiatives ring the Business Support Unit on 01286 679778 or alternatively you can email business@gwynedd.gov.uk


If you think Bangor is bad, check out post-industrial Blaneau Ffestining! A hotel, a Somerfield, a few shops, quite a few closed shops, a Chinese takeaway, and a kebab shop. Great car park with a loo, though, and of course, a miniature railway. Since the slate mines closed down unemployment in this area has been very high. Road improvements on the A470 should help get more tourists into the slate caverns. The problem with being over-dependent on the tourist buck is it results in a low wage economy and it's seasonal. Ultimately there has got to be more than this if local people are going to stay in small towns/villages in the middle of nowhere.

A real cross border experience totally lacking ..... transport and any need to go anywhere.

I call it stagnation.

Someone somewhere needs to wake up and get with the plot and at least invest for today and tomorrow, whilst keeping heritage and the past but building upon it.

Move something.


It`s not even cross border.....it`s internal.

Let`a hope St Winifreds well doesn`t pack in.

Thought I would post these in here as well!

Llandudno photos from a recent trip to the town known as The Queen Of North Wales.

Llandudno Pier, what I liked about this Victorian pier, is that it still looks Victorian, unlike many others that have been changed over the years and now dont look as nice!

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Llandudno has many fine old buildings, I liked the detail on the facade of this one.

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Llandudno's seafront.

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The picturesque Llandudno Bay.

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The Great Orme.

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An amazing sunset.

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In many ways this story is indicative of how this part of NW Wales is being shoved into chocolate box land. There used to be a direct line (standard gauge) all the way from Bangor via Caernarfon to Pwllheli enabling people to move about North Wales and NW England with ease. This new line is for tourists only. Beddgelert (Where Prince Llewelyn killed his favourite hound, Gelert) demonstrates this more than anywhere else. There's a whole row of cottages built in traditional style but they are all holiday lets. The village is dead when the season is over. Maybe it's a case of better this than nothing but the villages along the former railway route are stlll there - dying on their feet.

Just to clear something up here though - the route of the WHR was never a 'mainline' train service. The only section of the WHR that runs on the former line from Bangor/Caernarfon to Pwllheli line is the very start up to Dinas Junction (where the main line then stayed further north with a spur of to Nantle before crossing the Llyn Penisula further west to join the Cambrian line at Afonwen.

From Dinas Junction onwards it's always been a narrow gauge line that was built to transport workers and slate to and from the mines and quarries in the area - which is was the same as the Ffestinog railway between Blaenau Ffestinog and Porthmadog.

It's not as if they ripped up the railway line to create the the WHR 'tourism' line. Before this line was reopened it was a cycle path - in fact the majority of the original tracks had been removed during the 2nd World War for scrap (the original line closed in 1937).

In the late 1980s early 90s there was talk of reopening the railway line from Bangor to Caernarfon. However, it was the Welsh Language activists who were most vocal against that idea because they were concerned with an influx of English speakers being able to get into their Welsh Language 'Capital'. Since then, the Y Felinheli by-pass between Bangor and Caernarfon has been built along part of the former railway line so that's gonna scupper any plans to reopen it now.

The vandalism and some local hostility towards the line has been because of a preceived 'we're doing this and there's nothing you can do about it' attitude from the restoration team and a few broken promises along the way. For example, there were supposed to help arrange a replacement cycle track along the route but that never happened.

There's also the fact that the trains are noisy - when compared to birds singing, sheep baaing etc (lthough not that noisy when compared to a traffic jam in Beddgelert) so some people who have moved there 'for the peace and quiet' (ie - retired people) don't like the trains running either. There was a cartoon I saw in the pub in Rhyd Ddu which kinda summed up this - it showed some person sat outside with a train passing in the distance but much closer was the main road with a big traffic jam on it. The person was saying something like 'There goes to train to Rhyd Ddu disturbing our peace again!'. Oh, and it also doesn't help when there's a major fire on the land next to the train line which almost definately was caused by the line - either from an ember from a steam train that went passed, or from a passenger throwing something out of a window.

For better or worse, one of the main industries in North Wales now is tourism and it has to capitalise on that. So, villages like Beddgelert are now 'preserved' as Chocolate Box villages - however look at the alternatives such as Blaenau Ffestinog or Bethesda. I'd rather try and make a living in Beddgelert for 6 months of the year than either of those other 2 towns for 12 months of the year.

Didnt know there used to be a trainline from bangor to caernrafon!!

Didnt know there used to be a trainline from bangor to caernrafon!!

Caernarfon used to have through train services to Chester, Liverpool and Manchester probably even London and the lined continued on to Pwllheli. It closed in 1970. I think the line from Caernarfon to Pwllheli closed in the 1960s - post-Beeching.

Just to clear something up here though - the route of the WHR was never a 'mainline' train service. The only section of the WHR that runs on the former line from Bangor/Caernarfon to Pwllheli line is the very start up to Dinas Junction (where the main line then stayed further north with a spur of to Nantle before crossing the Llyn Penisula further west to join the Cambrian line at Afonwen.

From Dinas Junction onwards it's always been a narrow gauge line that was built to transport workers and slate to and from the mines and quarries in the area - which is was the same as the Ffestinog railway between Blaenau Ffestinog and Porthmadog.

It's not as if they ripped up the railway line to create the the WHR 'tourism' line. Before this line was reopened it was a cycle path - in fact the majority of the original tracks had been removed during the 2nd World War for scrap (the original line closed in 1937).

In the late 1980s early 90s there was talk of reopening the railway line from Bangor to Caernarfon. However, it was the Welsh Language activists who were most vocal against that idea because they were concerned with an influx of English speakers being able to get into their Welsh Language 'Capital'. Since then, the Y Felinheli by-pass between Bangor and Caernarfon has been built along part of the former railway line so that's gonna scupper any plans to reopen it now.

The vandalism and some local hostility towards the line has been because of a preceived 'we're doing this and there's nothing you can do about it' attitude from the restoration team and a few broken promises along the way. For example, there were supposed to help arrange a replacement cycle track along the route but that never happened.

There's also the fact that the trains are noisy - when compared to birds singing, sheep baaing etc (lthough not that noisy when compared to a traffic jam in Beddgelert) so some people who have moved there 'for the peace and quiet' (ie - retired people) don't like the trains running either. There was a cartoon I saw in the pub in Rhyd Ddu which kinda summed up this - it showed some person sat outside with a train passing in the distance but much closer was the main road with a big traffic jam on it. The person was saying something like 'There goes to train to Rhyd Ddu disturbing our peace again!'. Oh, and it also doesn't help when there's a major fire on the land next to the train line which almost definately was caused by the line - either from an ember from a steam train that went passed, or from a passenger throwing something out of a window.

For better or worse, one of the main industries in North Wales now is tourism and it has to capitalise on that. So, villages like Beddgelert are now 'preserved' as Chocolate Box villages - however look at the alternatives such as Blaenau Ffestinog or Bethesda. I'd rather try and make a living in Beddgelert for 6 months of the year than either of those other 2 towns for 12 months of the year.

I was talking about the British Rail service that used to run from Bangor and beyond to Caernarfon and Pwllheli using a standard gauge track.

Your point about the influence of Welsh language activists is an interesting one and one that is as valid today as it was in the 80s and 90s. A few months ago there was talk about siting a new jail in Caernarfon to house prisoners from North Wales closer to home. So what was the main topic of conversation locally? How many of those jobs would go to Welsh speakers and whether or not the language spoken in the prison would be predominantly Welsh or English. Estimates put the number of jobs at about 500 so you can imagine what a boon this would be to this part of Wales but once again language politics has become an issue.

I fully understand why it is so and at one level sympathise with the sentiment underpinning it but my concern that is in order to keep this part of Wales as Welsh-speaking as possible, development that might bring in people from elsewhere in Wales whose first language is English is discouraged.

Let's face it, there are only so many jobs that the WAG can provide in which the ability to speak fluent Welsh is at a premium. Most people in Wales are native English speakers. Clearly something is being worked through in terms of identity issues. It occurs to me that that places like Blaneau FFestinog and Bethesda might be paying too high a price. Both have (for this part of Wales) largish populations that were once employed in slate mining. This disappeared quite a while ago and a large section of the adult population is on welfare with little prospect of full time employment in the future. Where will the jobs come from? Would a large firm be encouraged to relocate if it brought in its English speaking management? I wonder.

Add to that mix the uniquely Welsh divide of 'chapel' and 'council estate' that often runs through such locations and garnish it will people under the age of 20 with little to do do in the evening except get off their faces and you begin to wonder where the silver lining is coming from.

Maybe the silver lining is in the form of another miniature railway?

Menai marina fight cost public £225,000...now it’ll be £400k more

May 20 2009 by Owen R Hughes, Daily Post


A COUNCIL has spent more than £225,000 of taxpayers’ cash in a legal battle to allow the development of a £14m marina that will now never be built. And the public purse could now be hit with an extra £400,000 bill – as Anglesey is likely to have to fork out to pay the legal costs of their opposition, a group of Menai Strait mussel fishermen.

The 400-berth Beaumaris marina project, tipped to create 150 jobs, was finally sunk by the House of Lords last week after a long-running legal dispute. It had seen highly paid barristers for the council and the Crown Estate battle it out with representatives of the mussel fishermen at the High Court and Court of Appeal.

The council’s own costs have now hit £170,612 in barristers’ fees and a further £55,805 in solicitors’ costs. But the local authority could also pick up the tab for the legal costs of the mussel fishing companies, which are estimated at around £400,000. They were given permission to apply for costs by the House of Lords. Costs will be shared between the council and the Crown Estate.

Mussel firm Deepdock said it questioned the wisdom of spending public money to benefit a private sector development on the Menai Strait. But the council hit back saying it had a duty to protect its interests on the seabed. This included existing moorings on the Strait as well as future developments.

James Wilson, from mussel firm Deepdock, said: “Council taxpayers have been funding a legal fight that would have benefited a private sector development, that is what is not fair in all of this. This will come out of the council tax paid by people on Anglesey, including myself and many of the workers at the dock. We have to ask if this was a wise way to spend this money when you consider they are talking about closing schools in the local area.”

But newly-elected council leader Clive McGregor defended the council’s actions. He said: “The Council, in partnership with the Crown Estates Commissioners, has sought clarification of legal issues surrounding the management of respective interests in the Menai Strait. The Council was duty bound to protect these interests as far as possible as well as seeking to encourage new investment which would have provided employment and other benefits to the island of Anglesey. We recognise that the mussel fishermen have a viable industry within the Strait which the council would not have wished to prejudice in any way. We will continue in discussions with them about their contribution to the economy of Anglesey.”

MP Albert Owen said: “I always believed that there could have been a compromise and the marina and the mussel industry could have worked side by side. I don’t know if that compromise was sought and it is now concerning that they have built up these legal costs. The council lost at every stage in the courts.”

The legal battle has centred on the legality of the 1962 Menai Strait oyster and mussel fishery order.

The courts backed the legality of this order above the interests of the landowners the Crown Estates and Anglesey council, who lease the seabed. That order will be up for renewal in 2022. Mr Wilson said: “We will keep money for a fighting fund, in case we again need it when the renewal comes up.” Last year Anglesey council tax bills went up 3.5% with an average band D bill at £789.84. Marina developers the Anglesey Boat Company declined to comment.

There's quite a big sailing/yachting community that makes use of Beaumaris - it seems here that their interests were put first before the needs of local fishermen. Needless to say most of the yachting community are not locals. An ongoing tension in this part of Wales.

Holyhead retail park plan to bring 120 jobs

May 20 2009 by Owen R Hughes, Daily Post

MORE than 120 jobs are to be created on Anglesey as a developer announced plans to build a 700-room hotel and expand a retail estate.

After months of economic gloom the island has finally received welcome jobs news with an investor revealing its ambitions to develop sites in the port town of Holyhead.

Pettifer Investments wants to build a hotel and restaurant close to the Holyhead Retail Park and expand the shopping centre with another 36,000 sq ft of retail development.

The company said that despite the economic downturn it wanted to press ahead in Holyhead – bringing in new firms and creating jobs.

The company has already sold additional land to Morrisons supermarket to create a petrol filling station. Chris Hunt, a director with Pettifer Investments, said: “Pettifer Investments remains totally committed to the completion of the Holyhead Retail Park. Despite the economic downturn, we are actively progressing further lettings and look forward to announcing new retailers and providing further jobs for the area. We are encouraged by the continuing interest being shown in planned new space.”

The provision of a new hotel would provide a major boost for tourism in the town.

Mr Hunt added: “Holyhead has been short of hotel accommodation for many years and we are hopeful that an early planning application will be made for a 70-bedroom hotel and restaurant. This will provide essential overnight accommodation for ferry travellers, visiting business people and tourists.”

The company said several companies had expressed an interest in a Holyhead site and more detailed negotiations were now ongoing with one hotel firm.

The retail park opened back in 2005 and the first phase attracted a number of big name retailers including garden and home store Wilkinson and clothing retailer Peacocks. It created around 100 jobs in the town. Further expansion saw a Morrisons supermarket built last year, bringing another 350 jobs to Holyhead.

Anglesey MP Albert Owen said: “This is good news for Holyhead that investment is still coming to the town. At a difficult time when we have seen job losses and threats to existing jobs it is good to hear of a company wanting to invest in Holyhead.”

The town has been hit by the loss of 265 jobs at Eaton Electrical and faces a potential hammer blow if Anglesey Aluminium Metals fails to secure a new power deal for its smelter beyond this September, with 540 jobs on the line.

This is great news. There is already a travelodge near the station but overall hotel provision beyond B&B is poor. Sadly Holyhead gives Bangor a run for its money in the closed-down shops stakes.

I'm not from north Wales so it's difficult for me to comment with any degree of accuracy but the issues you have raised in previous posts (about the tension between development and the potential damage to language/culture) is one that causes a lot of angst in Wales.

The difficulty is that for Welsh to be the language of the street then Welsh speakers must number 70% plus. Whilst the numbers of Welsh speakers increase year on year the number of communities where Welsh is predominant drops. The number of people who speak Welsh as opposed to the number of people who can speak Welsh decreases. In south Wales you get a lot of Welsh speakers who accept that English is the dominant language and use Welsh in connection with certain things be it education, religion, specific cultural events, speaking to family members etc. This has been a process that has been in place for decades. My wife is a Welsh speaker and I can almost predict what subjects she will discuss in Welsh and when she wont when she is with other Welsh speakers.

In north west Wales I get the feeling that this is a process that is only just happening. I also get the feeling that it's caused almost solely by in-migration from England (whereas in south Wales many Welsh people abandoned the language to 'get on') which is clearly going to make the whole issue even harder to get to grips with. This is the elephant in the room in Wales and it's incredibly difficult to raise the subject. The fact is that huge swathes of north Wales that only 30-40 years ago were predominantly Welsh speaking have a population where the majority were born in England. That must have a huge impact.

The problem lies in the fact that no-one in Wales seems to be able to,or doesn't want to, recognise the reality of the situation. Most political parties blithely continue as though this demographic change hasn't happened and a lot of people think about the way they want Wales to be rather than the way that Wales is. Gwynedd is in danger of positioning itself as the Welsh version of the Gaeltacht and in doing so turning itself into an artificial concept. The danger is that you keep the local populace imoverished which will drive the young away leaving pretty much nothing else apart from the elderly and the welfare dependant.

Other area's are in danger of turning into open air retirement homes. The repurcussions for that are enormous - in terms of what money gets spent on, attracting business, building prosperity etc.

The question is how do you reconcile the protection of Welsh culture and language with economic expansion and the free movement of people? That debate is conducted in the most infantile manner in Wales (if at all) and until there is some maturity position will only get more entrenched.

This type of issue is commonplace throughout many rural areas (the Lake District etc) but the difference here is that that it threatens the viability of a language which is probably unique in Britain.

The process by which Welsh speakers come to speak English is pretty universal across Wales. It's sometimes easy to forget that people were punished for speaking Welsh in the playground and that speaking Welsh had negative connotations for many. Thankfully this has all been swept away but it hasn't been forgotten.

In terms of language tensions within North Wales, I suspect that they are most intense within Gwynedd. The heavily populated coastal region from the border with England to the river Conwy is almost exclusively English speaking and contains a high number of people from England who have chosen to retire here. Colwyn Bay really dragged its feet on adopting bilingual signage. Three miles away from the Irish Sea however, Welsh becomes more and more common as the main language of communication. Often villages and small towns such as Ruthin and Denbigh will have people who mostly speak Welsh and those who only speak English. Obviously everyone learns Welsh at school but this doesn't appear to translate into people abandoning English in favour of Welsh. The people who speak Welsh come from Welsh speaking families. Everyone within a particular area knows who speaks what language so that in shops the language of communication will change from one language to the other. The convention of talking in English when there is an English speaker around has rightly vanished. Welsh speakers will continue in Welsh and the English speaker just has to wait until the conversation is finished. This suggests to me that Welsh speakers have confidence in their language and I see this as good.

What I'm less sure about it political Welshness. For example, a lot of money is being spent in pushing the Welsh language in Wrexham - a town that is almost exclusively English speaking. The local political elite buy into this (hence the name change for the local uni from North East Wales Institute to Glyndŵr University -cool name mind, and, of course he was a local lad). Oswestry in England has more Welsh speakers in it than Wrexham in Wales. It could be almost amusingly surreal but there is something discordant that is difficult to put a name to that sucks the fun right out of it.

Part of what is discordant is the tension between encouraging more and more people to speak Welsh without alienating the people who can't speak it but still see themselves as Welsh. It occurs to me that more and more people can speak Welsh (in the lax way in which this is measured I would probably be counted as a Welsh speaker because I can say about 7 sentences in Welsh, count in Welsh, read and pronounce Welsh quite well - I have little idea what I'm reading. I can no more hold a conversation in Welsh than I can fly to the moon). I suspect that the number of people who use Welsh as their main language is about the same as it has been for some time - say 25% of the population, hopefully more. This is enough I would argue to sustain the language. I can't think of anyone I know who used to be a predominantly Welsh speaker who has switched to English as his/her main language. Welsh, rightly, has equal status throughout Wales so that a Welsh speaker in Wrexham can address local committees in Welsh and have the services of a translator even though everyone including the Welsh speaker speaks English well enough.

I suspect that nationalists have a fantasy that Wales will one day become a majority Welsh speaking nation. This isn't going to happen and an open debate needs to had about the extent to which you can be truly Welsh without being Welsh speaking. If it turns out that the majority of people in Wales are not truly Welsh (because they are not fluent in Welsh) then what are they? How many different ways can you be 'Welsh' and are some ways seen as being better than others? Finally, what are the implications of this for the geographical area we call Wales? Not having this debate won't make it go away.

I'm not clear where I stand on the 'Gaeltachtisation' of Gwynedd! It is a predominantly Welsh speaking area and I don't think that English speakers should expect to be able to move into Welsh speaking villages and expect everyone to adapt to them rather than the other way round. I support Welsh medium instruction in schools for all subjects in areas that are predominantly Welsh speaking. People who choose to move into these areas need to make an informed choice and realise what this will entail.

Having said that, I think that the larger villages and towns (in a North Wales context places with a population of say 5000, maybe less) need to welcome non-Welsh speakers bringing in new businesses even if they can't speak a word of Welsh. Retiring English-speaking pensioners - No, they dilute the language pool, push property prices up forcing low paid Welsh speakers to move elsewhere for accommodation. Having an English speaking employer doesn't dilute someone's ability to speak Welsh. People are adaptive. Paradoxically, an English speaking employer who provides jobs for Welsh speakers helps to consolidate the Welsh language in a particular area. Mentioning the Gaeltacht has brought to mind my experience of being in a supermarket in Cahersiveen in which a woman at the checkout was having a conversation with two people at the same time - one conducted in Irish and the other in English (Co. Kerry style). The main issue in the Gaeltacht is bringing employment into the area. The Irish language looks after itself. What threatens the language most of all is the migration of speakers to Dublin because of the lack of local employment, especially as people who move into the area tend to open up galleries, potteries, etc that don't employ locals. In a North Wales context, Menai Bridge seems to be going down this road as it increasingly caters for English speaking academics at Bangor university.

In a nutshell there isn't a one size fits all answer, more a process that has to be gone through.

Very interesting post. In south Wales more and more kids are educated through the medium of Welsh which should mean that they are fluent BUT the opportunities for speaking Welsh outside of school are minimal unless BOTH parents are Welsh speakers. I see that in my own family. My Welsh language skills are probably similar to yours. My wife is fluent as are the kids. They speak Welsh occasionally but almost always switch to English so as not to exclude me despite me being in the minority. This is the default position in south Wales. The result is that Welsh is (mostly) seen as a private thing for the family. The result is that Welsh is very rarely used in an official context.

This partly explains the poor take up Welsh language services with utility companies, councils etc as well as the appalling standard of those services. There is a fiction that Welsh enjoys equal status which it may do in law but in practice (in south Wales) English is totally dominant even in Welsh speaking area's such as Carmarthenshire. This leads to tension with people asking why money is spent on language promotion when it doesn't seem to make Welsh more prominent.

I doubt very much that anyone seriously believes or wants Welsh to be the predominant langauge in Wales. Thats the shameful scare tactics used by the likes of Neil Kinnock leading up to the devolution vote in 1979. By 1999 it was not something that was raised seriously . I also don't think that anyone - outside of a few nutters - really takes the view that you are less Welsh if you don't speak Welsh. Contrary to popular belief Wales is not a homogenous nation nor is it insular or parochial. There is probably a greater mix of people here than most parts of England. I think that most people recognise that as a strength. Identity is a changeable thing, in Wales especially.

With the best will in the world people do not respect the linguistic nature of places like Gwynedd, Anglesey, Ceredigion. I think we are kidding ourselves that anything but a tiny minority of people who move there to work, downsize, retire will learn Welsh other than a bore da or a croeso. And that does have the effect of diluting Welsh as the predominant language. Ceredigion is an example of that - it used to be almost all Welsh speaking. Now only 50% of the population speak Welsh and you can walk for ages in the streets of Cardigan, Borth, Aber, New Quay etc and not hear Welsh whereas the Brummie accent is ubiquitous. It's also an example of the way civic society in Wales find it hard to accept that Wales isn't the way they think it should be. I constantly hear about Ceredigian being the epitome of the Welsh speaking heartland in the local media but it isn't. That will happen to Gwynedd in a few years time. It's already happened to most of Denbighshire and Conwy. The question is how to deal with the inexorable tide of demographic change rather than bury heads in the sand and hope for the best.

For me it's more a question of how to read 'Wales' or what goes on in the geographical region called Wales. It's easy to make snap judgements or to see uniformity when there is heterogeneity and vice versa. In a country that is so dependent on tourism it can seem as though English is being spoken everywhere and is so dominant that it is going to sweep all before it but when the tourists go back or if you go to the pubs/places that the locals go to or know the people who live locally all the year round then you get a more accurate picture - one in which the Welsh language is more robust, especially in the context that it has always been most robust in - the family setting, the village and the local farming community. I can't see this ever changing.

In the north places like Flintshire and Denbighshire have for a long time been predominantly English speaking. The whole borderland/Marches area is a rule unto itself. Conwy is more mixed with almost everyone who lives on the coast speaking English whilst those who live three miles away are more likely to be Welsh speakers. Gwynedd and Anglelsey remain strong Welsh speaking areas. Most people retiring to North Wales tend to retire to Conwy. The only demographic change I have noticed in my lifetime is that Bangor has become more English speaking (because of the university) and Menai Bridge, too - because it has effectively become a suburb of Bangor. Caernarfon seems more Welsh speaking than ever.

Caernarfon has seen a bit of development recently and if the prison goes ahead it will be interesting to see what impact it will have on local language communities. I suspect that it won't have much of an impact and that people are getting themselves into a lather over nothing. Often language is pushed to the fore when the real issues are lack of employment and the inability of young people/people on a low income to get on the housing ladder. Sometimes it's easier to make pronouncements about language issues than it is to tackle the poor economic prospects that many villages and small towns are faced with, especially when the transport infrastructure is so abysmal.

Caernarfon is a great town and would I'm sure be more prosperous still if it were connected to the rail network (by real trains not miniature ones) but language politics are still alive and well in the town and given that it is probably the largest town in Wales in which Welsh is easily the dominant language, I wonder whether equating development with a reduction in the number of Welsh speakers is perhaps understandable. It's certainly an issue that needs to be handled sensitively. Having said that the surrounding villages are full of Welsh speakers gagging for employment so what is all the fuss about?!

Can language communities exist harmoniously side by side without one being wary of being overwhelmed by the other and stirring things up accordingly? English speakers in Wales will have to take a leap of imagination here and imagine how they would cope if their street/town/village suddenly went from being majority English speaking to majority Welsh speaking.

^^

Just to make it clear that the context for the opening paragraph after the first sentence is North Wales in general and Gwynedd in particular!


:)

First train trip steams stunning Aberglaslyn railway route

May 22 2009 by Eryl Crump, Daily Post

THE latest section of the Welsh Highland Railway was officially opened yesterday when the first passenger train steamed through the Aberglaslyn Pass.

A special train carried invited guests the three miles from Beddgelert to a temporary terminus at Hafod y Llyn.

The section has been voted the most beautiful place in the UK by National Trust members, and its opening takes the narrow gauge line a step closer to re-opening from Caernarfon to Porthmadog.

Three trains will run most days from Caernarfon to Hafod y Llyn. Officials expect to open the entire 26-mile route later this year.

The Welsh Highland Railway opened in 1922 but closed in 1937. Railway officials said the project is the largest “new” railway to be built since the Channel Tunnel.




It's an idyllic route to drive, too.

There should be a thread on language to discuss this - it's more of a nationwide issue, and it's debatable whether it has anything to do with north Wales developments. The Wrexham Full Summary thread was similarly hijacked.

I'd would strongly disagree with two statements:

Wrexham is not "a town that is almost exclusively English speaking". How would so many Welsh medium schools exist in Wrexham if this was the case? It's fair to say the western side of the town has far more Welsh speakers than the east side, which is to all intents and purposes a collection of outlying Chester suburbs.

As for "Flintshire and Denbighshire have for a long time been predominantly English speaking", this is absolutely true of Flintshire, but vast swathes of Denbighshire are first language Welsh.

If it's debatable then why not debate it?

In terms of Denbighshire (and Conwy), I did point out that the upland areas are predominantly Welsh speaking! However, the coastal region where the majority of people live is overwhelmingly English speaking. I don't know what is going on in Wrexham in terms of Welsh medium schools and what this signifies on the ground but the reality is that a Welsh speaker will have to speak English to be understood in most of the shops in the town centre. I have been to Wrexham a few times, I don't recall hearing Welsh being spoken. Maybe I didn't go far enough into the west end! Maybe I'm unlucky because I have been to Cardiff a few times, too, and apart from announcements being made in Welsh at the station, I don't recall hearing Welsh being spoken there either and yet according to statistics more people speak Welsh in Cardiff than anywhere else. Where do they all hang out?

I'm just going to pop over to the Wrexham thread to see how it was 'hijacked'.

I'm not spinning a language agenda here, I'm just exploring how tensions around language protection/promotion shape economic/urban activity in North Wales, and how they might be managed to bring about a win - win situation for everyone.

I just read it - seemed relevant to me. Lack of employment/money/affordable housing is a dominant concern across North Wales. This isn't a thread about development it's about urbanism in North Wales (and all the scenic bits). In a way North Wales can be seen as an interesting arena in which a range of tensions are at play- urban vs rural, tourist economy vs anything else please, and so on.

Development, urbanism, call it what you like - the points I was making are:-

1. The Welsh language is probably a big enough can of worms to merit its own thread.
2. The effect of Welsh on "urbanism" in Wales is debatable is probably best debated on a national level. I would suggest that urbanism has a bigger effect on the Welsh language than vice versa, hence there should be a thread on language
3. Welsh language debates can alienate people who want to know about "North Wales - beaches, mountains and lots of urbanism." And that includes Welsh speakers.

Your posts about what's happening in north Wales are great and I always read each one. Just feeling that the thread was starting to go off at a tangent about language. I'm interested in what's happening in north Wales on a development/urbanism level, not really about language. I'm guessing a lot of people are the same, especially people not from Wales to whom the Welsh language is an irrelevance.

Welsh is widely spoken in Wrexham and Cardiff, probably more in the residential areas than the town/city centres, but you can speak Welsh in various establishments in the centres if you know which establishments have Welsh speakers working in them.

The Wrexham thread was hijacked by people arguing about what constituted Wrexham and what didn't. It was supposed to be a full summary of projects.

I don't plan on turning this to a language thread, but I will specifically answer the following.

I suspect that nationalists have a fantasy that Wales will one day become a majority Welsh speaking nation. This isn't going to happen and an open debate needs to had about the extent to which you can be truly Welsh without being Welsh speaking. If it turns out that the majority of people in Wales are not truly Welsh (because they are not fluent in Welsh) then what are they? How many different ways can you be 'Welsh' and are some ways seen as being better than others? Finally, what are the implications of this for the geographical area we call Wales? Not having this debate won't make it go away.

This image of nationalism you have is the kind that old fashioned Labour and Conservative parties like to peddle to keep power - the kind people would relate to the BNP or the Soviet Union. I would consider myself a nationalist of some kind, but I have no wish in Wales becoming mostly Welsh speaking. I wouldn't want that. (A good place to start is George Orwell's 'Notes on Nationalism'.) Nationalism doesn't mean building a brick wall along all boundaries or imposing an agenda devised by a minority upon a majority. Nationalism in the Welsh sense would mean Wales have autonomy and the full right to make its own decision and have its responsibilities. Wales could be wholly independent with nothing change. However we would reserve the right to be able to make those changes should we want. Nothing dangerous or scary about that, I would consider it a most admirable thing taking responsibility for your action.

This not being Welsh unless your Welsh speaking doesn't make much sense. I happen to be first language Welsh but I wouldn't consider myself to be proud of this attribute or of being Welsh. It's just something that happens. Non-Welsh speaking Welsh would consider themselves to be proud of their identity which would ultimately make them more Welsh than I.


I doubt very much that anyone seriously believes or wants Welsh to be the predominant langauge in Wales. Thats the shameful scare tactics used by the likes of Neil Kinnock leading up to the devolution vote in 1979. By 1999 it was not something that was raised seriously . I also don't think that anyone - outside of a few nutters - really takes the view that you are less Welsh if you don't speak Welsh. Contrary to popular belief Wales is not a homogenous nation nor is it insular or parochial. There is probably a greater mix of people here than most parts of England. I think that most people recognise that as a strength. Identity is a changeable thing, in Wales especially.

This idea of Welsh becoming a majority language is nothing short of inferring some kind of cultural genocide. As is obvious between the contrasts of rural north Wales and the south Wales valleys for example, one could say that the cultures of north and south are somewhat defined by the communal linguistics. Making statements that Welsh speakers want to eradicate English would in effect be the denying of a culture which belongs to the majority of Wales' inhabitants.

As for the urbanism, I'll post at some later date.

The issues here are entirely separable even if there is some linkage.

There isn't any reason why there can't be a language thread pertaining to Wales as a whole and one that is specific to North Wales in general or Gwynedd in particular.

Reducing North Wales to puuurrrettty pics of Snowdonia and the like doesn't do anyone any favours - except the viewer and, of course, the photographer who gets a few 'Great shot!' strokes. If people want North Wales lite then I guess they are free to start a thread for pretty pix and reminiscences about their holidays.

The main issue in urban areas in Gwynedd is how to maximise development and maximise the use of the Welsh language. The main issues elsewhere in North Wales are more to do with employment, access to housing and poor transport infrastructure. North Wales is much more heterogeneous than it is often represented. Llangollen, Wrexham, Deeside, Prestatyn - Rhyl etc. all have location specific urban needs that can easily get subsumed in a one size (North Wales) fits all mentality. There's a lot more to North Wales than Snowdonia and a high concentration of Welsh speakers in Gwynedd. Two flights a day from Valley to Cardiff subsidised by the tax payer speaks volumes for how the WAG conceptualises what is going on at local level hereabouts!

Yes, that's just what is needed, along with the daily train from Cardiff to Holyhead. Gesture politics - don't you just love it? :nuts:

Multi-million pound Rhyl venture put on hold

Daily Post
Jun 3 2009


A MULTI-MILLION pound venture to revitalise Rhyl’s seafront has hit yet another delay. Grand plans for the town’s former funfair site were due to be put into motion last month.

But problems have stacked up against Manchester-based developers Modus Properties – the latest blow came last week when its holding company, Modus Ventures Ltd went into administration.

Yesterday assurances were given the news won’t scupper the £85m venture earmarked for the Ocean Plaza site at West Parade, though work is already delayed because of flood defence repairs. Modus Properties say they are not affected by the collapse of their parent company as they are now their own entity.

Meanwhile administrators from KPMG have been called in for other firms formerly under the Modus umbrella. They revealed the firm, which own 47 property development companies, has huge debts and will be "the first in a long line of commercial real estate casualties."

Modus Properties were supposed to start work last month on a massive housing and retail development on Rhyl’s seafront. Phase one of the Rhyl seafront development includes the building of an Asda supermarket which will employ 470 people. But at the moment 350 employees from the company’s existing store in Kinmel Bay are in limbo.

They can’t move until building work is complete but first flood defences need to be strengthened. Denbighshire’s director of environment Iwan Prys Jones blamed the delays on the credit crunch. He said the Welsh Assembly Government is helping the council to "move forward" with flood defence work and that the economic downturn is another issue for the company.

A KPMG spokeswoman said other companies under the Modus Ventures umbrella have "re-invented themselves" as separate businesses. Firms are trading as normal but we will look at each one in turn to see how valuable they are – which will obviously be a lengthy process," she said.

Richard Fleming, UK head of restructuring at KPMG, said: "The group, like many companies within the property sector, has not been immune to the economic downturn and, indeed, we believe will be one of the first in a long line of commercial real estate casualties. It is a large and complex group, with many lending institutions providing funds for both completed and part-completed developments. The company has been in discussions with a number of parties in respect of providing funding for ongoing developments and we will work with company management to pursue this interest."

The Ocean Plaza site on the parade lay empty for much of 2008 as environmental conditions were thrashed out.Proposals granted permission in 2007, include 200 apartments, a hotel and pubs.

A council spokeswoman said: "Denbighshire has received clarification from Modus that the particular company involved in the Ocean Plaza development in Rhyl – Modus Properties Ltd – is not one that has been affected by this announcement and the company has reassured the authority that work will continue on the Ocean Plaza development as planned."


I have heard a rumour that the former Ocean Beach funfair was bought by the company owning Blackpool Pleasure Beach and then closed down. The same thing happened with Southport's fairground. The end result is that Blackpool's Pleasure Beach no longer has any rivals! The 'Ocean Beach' site in Rhyl rusted away for some time in an accusatory manner. The proposals described above were seen as a welcome lifeline but reading between the lines ...

Jobs for locals vs the interests of shopkeepers ...

Planners reject 4,000 Wrexham job project

Jun 3 2009 by Dan Beavan, Daily Post

A £17M project for a new superstore and business park south of Wrexham, which it is claimed would have created 4,000 jobs, has been rejected.

Supermarket giant Sainsbury’s and developer Liberty Properties had put forward the scheme on 57 acres of agricultural land on the Wynnstay Estate at Ruabon.

Emyr Williams, a director of Liberty Properties, said last night that he was shocked by the decision which he claimed had won widespread support in the village of Ruabon

“This is tragic news for the people of south Wrexham as an opportunity to create meaningful jobs has been turned down,” he said. “We are now considering what course of action we will take. However, we will certainly not be walking away from this.”

The plan had won a measure of support in Ruabon but had also attracted opposition from objectors who claimed the development would destroy jobs in existing businesses in the village and have a damaging impact on the environment.

There were also fears that it would result in a traffic build up as vehicles from a much wider area used the superstore.

Members of Wrexham council's planning committee voted to throw out the controversial development which would have been built in open countryside close to the A483 Ruabon-Newbridge bypass.

The committee heard that the plans conflicted with the unitary development plan and could harm existing centres.

I don't remember those concerns being expressed when the Tesco Extra was built in Wrexham itself ...

£28m Welsh Highland Railway project runs out of cash

Jun 3 2009 by Hywel Trewyn, Daily Post

THE official opening of the world’s longest heritage railway has had to be postponed – because the company laying the track needs more cash. Ffestiniog Railway had hoped to open its new £28m Welsh Highland Railway stretching 26-miles from Caernarfon to Porthmadog this summer.

But now the Daily Post can reveal the company still needs to find more funding to finish the works – which have so far lasted 12 years.

Ffestiniog Railway general manager Paul Lewin last night admitted the company is looking for more money to help put the final touches – including essential crossings – to the track.

The laying of the track has been completed in three phases, starting in 1997. Trains first started running from Caernarfon to Dinas the same year. It was then extended to Waunfawr and then on to Rhyd Ddu. Last month the latest section from Beddgelert through the Aberglaslyn Pass was opened. The final stretch to Porthmadog has been laid, but trains won’t be allowed to operate along the entire route until all the level crossings and other final ”extension works” have been completed. Work on widening the Cob will need to be done and signs erected.

Mr Lewin could not reveal how much cash was needed or how long the final works would be expected to take. It means a final date for the hotly anticipated opening still can’t be set. Once it is open, passengers from Caernarfon will be able to travel on a railway line along a total stretch of 40 miles to Porthmadog and then on to Blaenau Ffestiniog.

Porthmadog railway station is served by trains on the Cambrian Coast Line between Machynlleth and Pwllheli.

Blaenau Ffestiniog railway station is the terminus for the Conwy Valley Line from Llandudno Junction.

Mr Lewin said: “We have spent £28m in over 12 years to built the biggest heritage railway in the world. The bulk of the money has now been spent. There are still some extension works to be done and funding to be found. We should cover funds for the extension at Porthmadog but we need some more funding. We haven’t gone bankrupt. We have money in the bank. We don’t owe anybody. We don’t borrow money, we are a charity. We are only spending money we have got.

“It may take us a few years before we get there. We need a bit more money to finish off. It’s going well.

Mr Lewin said they needed to spend money at Blaenau Ffestiniog terminus in the near future. Equally at Caernarfon we are working to move the terminus at St Helen’s Quay – that could take as long as ten years.” So far Ffestiniog has received £3.7m from the Welsh European Funding Office (Wefo) – along with an Assembly Government grant of £1.2m to extend the line from Rhyd Ddu to Porthmadog. Mr Lewin said: “More than 50% is private money. When you're developing, you do one bit first.” Although Ffestiniog has paid local contractors for much of the project, volunteers have been extensively involved.

The lack of specifics doesn't bode well. I suspect that more shit will be hitting the fan with this one.

Welsh signs gobbledegook

Jun 2 2009 by Hywel Trewyn, Daily Post

A COUNCIL was criticised for not correcting mistakes in Welsh signs spotted by a Daily Post reader a year ago. Twelve months ago, Scott Felton, from Colwyn Bay visited Wrexham bus station and saw a sign on the door of the information office which read 'Amser Agorau' which is Opens Time. The plural ending “au” was on the wrong word and should read Amserau Agor. There was also “Ymhoilida” instead of Ymholiadau (Enquiries).

David James Jones, 56, from Corwen, Denbighshire sent us a gobbledegook bill sent to his father-in-law by Denbighshire council. It says “Interest will be charged on late payments”. Instead of “Codir llôg ar daliadau hwyr” it has: “Ddiddora chyhuddir acha’n ddiweddar daledigaethu” - which is complete gobbledegook!

He said: “I couldn’t believe my eyes.”

The council last night apologised

Says it all really :yes:

Can't believe no-one mentioned that, finally, the Snowdon Summit Cafe building (Hafod Eryri to give it it's official name) has now opened!

It officially opened a few weeks ago, although apparently it's not quite fully opened because they need a few Health and Safety inspections.

Anyway, it's all good news for the area generally


Summit cafe boosts peak railway
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/8118973.stm
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45971000/jpg/_45971231_4a716152-bad3-4bf1-a96c-cae0622117bc.jpg
The Snowdon Mountain Railway says there is an unprecedented demand for tickets to the mountain summit, following the opening of the new visitor centre.

The railway said ticket sales were up nearly 30% on its predictions since Hafod Eryri opened earlier this month.

More than 1,000 visitors a day have been using the 106-year-old rack-and-pinion trains to reach Snowdon's peak.

The railway's general manager said it meant that bookings on some services are being sold out two days in advance.

"After all the wonderful coverage that the opening Hafod Eryri received, a lot of people want to go and have a look at it," said the Snowdon Mountain Railway's head, Alan Kendall.

"We've had queues in the morning for tickets, and pretty much all the half-hour services we run are selling out."

The train company, which also operates the visitor centre and cafe on the summit, said the demand for places on the trains had sometime meant long waits for telephone booking.

"We have eight inquiry lines, but unfortunately some visitors have found they are waiting an hour to get through - and then we've got nothing to sell them, all the services are fully booked," said Mr Kendall.

He said the company had anticipated selling around 4,000 rail tickets in the first full week the summit centre was opened - instead it sold close to 6,000.

But he also said he believed other factors were working in the rail company's favour.

"There has been a definite increase in the number of visitors who are holidaying in the UK, with some telling us it is the first time they have decided to come to north Wales in 25 years," explained Mr Kendall.

"The other thing that has been in our favour is the weather. On the bank holidays and now, we've had the sunshine.

"It has meant that even mid-week, when the kids are in school, we have been busy.

"It is really three good news stories for us, and for the rest of the area."

I was up there the other week but we were only taken as far as Clogwyn Station because it wasn't ready then,i'll have to go back soon now.It's absolutely stunning up there.

^^

Did you bump into the lovely Mr Richard Littlejohn? This is what he had to say:



"You could easily confuse Llandudno for Afghanistan, only with more heroin”

Jul 2 2009, North Wales Weekly News

A CONTROVERSIAL national newspaper columnist has caused anger over the suggestion Snowdonia resembles war-torn Afghanistan.

Richard Littlejohn of the Daily Mail made the allegation that the National Park was like the Afghan region of Tora Bora in a diatribe against North Wales Police. He also suggested that Llandudno on a Saturday night resembles heroin ridden and war torn Afghanistan which has caused outrage in the resort. Tora Bora is the area of Afghanistan where at one time it was believed terrorist chief Osama Bin laden was hiding.

“In a bad light Snowdonia does look a bit like the Tora Bora,” wrote Littlejohn, 55, “and on a Saturday night you could easily confuse Llandudno for Afghanistan, only with more heroin.” Alun Pugh, chief executive of the Snowdonia Society, hit back at the slur: “The millions of people who visit and enjoy the Snowdonia National Park each year vote with their feet by coming here. I don’t recognise the picture painted by Mr Littlejohn and don’t believe it should be taken seriously.”

In reaction to the comments Darren Millar AM said: also reacted to the comments: “Richard Littlejohn's comments are an insult to our forces on active duty in Afghanistan and given that we have just commemorated Armed Forces Day across the UK I’d have thought he would have a little more sense – I wonder how long he has spent in that part of the world?
“Llandudno and Snowdonia attract hundreds of thousands of visitors each year, many of whom come back regularly. This is a clear sign that Littlejohn is out of touch with reality. North Wales has some real gems and Snowdonia and Llandudno would certainly rank amongst the best.”

County councillor Phil Edwards served for 30 years with North Wales Police, latterly as Secretary of the North Wales Police Federation. He said: “In his own inimitable style, Richard Littlejohn's unrelenting pursuit of Richard Brunstrom is no doubt intended to raise the odd wry smile from some of his newspaper's more discerning readership. Mr Brunstrom will remain as unfazed as ever because by now he's used to the abuse dished out by the London media. I wouldn't pretend everything is perfect in the force in which I served and Mr Brunstrom's reign has certainly been controversial at times but even he doesn't deserve this kind of abuse. And equally Llandudno and Snowdonia don't deserve this kind of abuse, however tongue in cheek it may have been intended. Mr Littlejohn should have been a little more circumspect with his unwarranted comments.”

Gareth Jones, AM for Aberconwy and a former Ysgol John Bright headteacher, added: “I'm sure this columnist intended his remarks to be funny, but he failed. If his comments were to be taken out of context, and no doubt some will do that, they could be damaging to Llandudno's reputation as one of the finest family seaside resorts in the UK, and Snowdonia as one of the best tourist destinations in the world.”

Richard Littlejohn - his ability to unswervingly hit the right target is on a par with the Allied Forces in Afghanistan.

He's clearly envious because he has nothing comparable near where he lives,why do these idiots have a voice in the press that churn out so much crap,his comments couldn't be further from the truth.:ohno:

I read that, what a load of balls! lol not worth getting worked up about.

City regeneration plan on display
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/8151847.stm

Plans to transform Bangor city centre and "revitalise" its high street have gone on public display.

Gwynedd council says the Bangor Public Realm project has the potential to make the city centre "stronger than ever".

The £3.5m project could see traffic flow changed, the bus station moved and streets paved in granite.

Ive seen the plans, you can view them on the gwynedd council website, cant say im overly impressed, they basically want to re-lay the whole of the city centre in fancy paving and add a few trees here n there, still nothing that makes me go wow!

What Bangor lacks is like a park, a meeting place, a place where people go and chill out, the proper part of the city centre

Yeah, I agree. There are times when I think what Bangor really needs is a damn good meteor impact to wipe the slate clean and start afresh.

The problem that I can see is that from the main road through the city (the A5) you don't actually get an idea of what's actually IN the city. Apart from a few University buildings (Science Library, Biology building etc.) the A5 goes behind everything.

What I would love to do would be to tear down the old Telephone Exchange. This is a huge rundown, and from the looks of the dirty windows, mostly empty building that blocks the city centre from the University Park and the main road. It over shadows the small park behind it as well.

The telephone exchange that's actually inside it could easily be accomodated in a much smaller building now - so tear it down, build a small exchange at the back of the site (or even move it into the old, unused Post Office Depot next door, use the rest of it for a new purpose built bus station with access directly to the park and then onwards to the High Street.

The High Street also needs *proper* pedestrianisation which is enforced. It's meant to be that before 11am and after 4.30pm that only vehicles making deliveries and disabled badge holders have access - but no-one enforces that so you get the everyone driving up there. In fact, you get youths just driving around in a circle in the evening. It should be pedestrianised much earlier in the day - 9.30am at the latest to 5.30pm and then they could introduce market stalls on the High Street then to bring some extra life to the city.

On the issue of parks, I'd also like them to get rid of all the railings that's around them. That'll be a huge improvement on improving access to them. Ok, some of the parks where things like football is played (ie the ones with goal posts on them) will need to keep the railings for safety reasons, if, for example, you removed the railings from the gardens next to the bus station it'll encourage far more people to use it apart from the drug addicts who shoot up in the loos there. And, the more people that use an area, the less attractive it becomes for that sort of anti-social behaviour.

I see that is a thread about urbanizm and invest`s, but i will give you few pics of North Wales. My (and yours) favourite Llandudno
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1816/1000080j.jpghttp://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6713/1000088j.jpg

^^
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7201/1000100mfo.jpghttp://img18.imageshack.us/img18/3599/1000069akr.jpghttp://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2498/1000089t.jpg

Somewhere in Snowdonia
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9498/1000373g.jpghttp://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2744/1000372x.jpg

^^
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/2079/1000370z.jpghttp://img43.imageshack.us/img43/3826/1000367y.jpghttp://img6.imageshack.us/img6/971/1000362qir.jpg
Sorry for the quality, I made thet pics from a car

Now a Criccieth Castle and a view from the hill
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6308/1000388b.jpghttp://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3513/1000404m.jpg

^^
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/612/1000403m.jpghttp://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3011/1000397a.jpghttp://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9183/1000392m.jpg

Caernarfon^^
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/7174/1000214ebp.jpghttp://img11.imageshack.us/img11/9669/051ohc.jpghttp://img197.imageshack.us/img197/91/1000210t.jpg

^^
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1227/1000213d.jpghttp://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2707/1000212m.jpg

Caernarfon from Twt Hill
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8778/103mwr.jpghttp://img31.imageshack.us/img31/6329/101wvs.jpghttp://img31.imageshack.us/img31/6850/104vah.jpg

Still Caernarfon^^
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/5347/1000170.jpghttp://img11.imageshack.us/img11/55/1000179i.jpghttp://img190.imageshack.us/img190/6592/1000220e.jpg

^^
County Hall
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3043/1000171g.jpg
and a Castle
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/4681/1000177p.jpghttp://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5294/1000178fcx.jpg

^^
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5937/050rce.jpghttp://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2642/1000206p.jpg

Few shoots in Pothmadog
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/3239/1001991n.jpghttp://img200.imageshack.us/img200/2481/1000378nty.jpg

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/3024/1001986s.jpghttp://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3271/1000379q.jpg

And a view from my window in Caernarfon
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/7203/1000053wyu.jpghttp://img38.imageshack.us/img38/279/1000005u.jpghttp://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5448/1000048c.jpg

Thats all from me, and cheers for everyone who beloved this land. :cheers: Hwyl

A masterplan has been drawn up for Hirael Bay in Bangor
You can view it here (PDF File)
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/upload/public/attachments/989/bae_hirael_english.pdf

What do you think?

Hmm...

Well that masterplan kinda looks good and exciting. The problem with masterplans though is that they're not really worth the paper they're written on. And, to be honest, looking at the final 'recommended' masterplan, it's not actually that different from the original ideas - so I can't see that many changes from the 'consultation' they've had. Also, the plan seems to be 'Well, if Porth Penrhyn go ahead with their marina plans, it'll be this and if they don't go ahead it'll be that'. So, what's the time frame on Porth Penrhyn making a decision? Or will it just stay as it is because 'the economy' is never right?

There's no specific funding allocated to acheiving this plan and each development site around the bay would still have to go through planning permission and the various NIMBY's that that'll bring out. I can see immediately that people in Anglesey would not like some of this and say it's too intrusive - the hotel by the pier and the marina if that goes ahead in particular.

If the University went ahead and said they're ready to build the new medical school, I expect there would be a huge campaign against it. Even in the consultation, the new medical school was by far the most unpopular feature suggested. This isn't because it's a bad idea, it's just because there's now a tendancy in Bangor for the locals to blame all their problems on the students now. I've been in Bangor all year round and Friday night along the High Street is no better during the summer holidays than it is during term time. It's the locals who come in from the surrounding villages that cause more problems than the students.

Incidentally, talking to a few friends of mine from around the University, they were actually asked by the council to come up with something to anchor the site with - they've not really had an aspirations for a new medical school until now and, to be honest, I suspect they're not really that committed to this anyway. If they were really interested in using the site for anything, they would move the School of Ocean Sciences over from it's base in Menai Bridge.

So, yes personally I'd love to see that happen - if they can do this alongside the proposals for the High Street area then Bangor could be on it's way to a bit of a grand makeover. However, I'm just not holding my breath for that just yet. I just wish someone would also look at the area around the station and sort that out into a great Gateway into the city as well.

Beautiful photos!

Watkin Jones have submitted there planning application for Dickies boatyard, Thet plan on building some town houses and some apartments!

Heres the full report im PDF
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/apas/run/WCHDISPLAYMEDIA.showImage?theSeqNo=192115&theApnkey=38118&theModule=1

Im no architect but do them houses and apartments look big? Theres a list of properties and there sq. feet in that report, not sure what page

If you want to view the full application go to the gwynedd council website and trace application, the application number is C09A/0410/11/LL
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/swiftlg/apas/run/wphappcriteria.display

Quickly rescuing this topic from the depths of page 2 with an update on the new Bangor Arts centre!

The new plans have just been released and the site is about to be cleared imminently - the Student Union is closing after this weekend and demolition should start next month.

Anyway, it's being called 'Pontio' (which, for those who don't speak welsh means 'to bridge') and it's gonna look like this:

http://www.pontio.co.uk/en/__assets/asset37.jpg

Construction is scheduled to start in Sept this year with completion for Xmas 2012. Which is a pretty tight schedule considering the fact that they've not actually got planning permission for this yet - they're expecting to get that at the end of July.

More details over on this website at http://www.pontio.co.uk