Will the toll toll for Bruce B. Downs users?
Friday, August 17, 2007
Bay News 9

Hillsborough County is looking into whether it should put a toll booth at the Pasco County border to help pay for improvements for Bruce B. Downs Boulevard.

Because so many drivers who use Bruce B. Downs Boulevard are from Pasco County, Hillsborough County asked its northern neighbor to help pay for some improvements to the road, including widening it from four to six lanes.

Pasco County said no, so Hillsborough County's is therefore thinking about the toll booth to fund the project.

Pasco County said it turned down Hillsborough County's request for funding because it doesn't believe it can legally use Pasco County impact fees on Hillsborough County projects.

Most of the drivers from Pasco County Bay News 9 spoke to agreed Pasco County should have to pay to improve Bruce B. Downs near the county border, but they don't want a toll booth.

http://www.baynews9.com/Maps.html?Bruce,B,Downs,Boulevard,tampa,fl,33647

just think of the amount of money they would waste building a toll plaza.

I am certainly opposed to this. I'm sure the county will ask for an outrageous fee too. Just like what is being conjured for the East/West road.

I think it's a good tactic to get Pasco to cough up some cash. They have been recklessly approving mega communities that depend on BBD without having to pay for any upgrades.

Seems like a perfectly viable option to me, heck it might even help to thwart some of that reckless expansion that jonknee touched on in his post. ^^

I can only laugh at this.

I wish there was a regional authority that could settle this.

Well, if people were actually active in their city/county goverments we would be on our way to that ends. Unfortunately, as it stands the portion of the population that actually goes to the polls, only does so for presidential elections.

Well quite frankly, I'd rather not travel Bruce B. Downs. =)

I'd pay a toll here in Orlando so you guys can have some improvements on BBD, that road is horrible.

^Don't bother.

The way I see it, the folks up that way have gotten the cheap life they paid for. They sought a cheap house on cheap land in a cheap part of town and that's what they got.

Not to mention that historically that entire area was part of the natural flood plane. Back when hurricane Donna payed the Bay Area a visit in the 60's it was all submerged. Lord help all those people and our taxes when/if we get another near/hit.

This is the end result of urban sprwal. Goodness gracious something needs to be done to control urban growth in Tampa Bay. Soon BBD will not only be overcrowded (after improvements) but Tampa's urban area will have spread well into Pasco, maybe almost Hernando in 25 years.

I think there should be a toll. People in Pasco county work in Tampa and use Tampa's roads. Why not put a toll booth there? They are the reason the road is as bad as it is.

When they move.... they take the tax base with them. Why shouldn't they be responsible for paying a toll. Why should I pay the up-keep on a road that was built for them when I live in South Tampa. We should charge 5 dollars each way maybe all those people will think twice about clogging this state in sprawl.

Do they think that all traffic on BBD travels one way? The point seems to be lost that once all of this new retail is built north of the County line, there will be an influx of trips heading from the Hillsborough side north into Pasco to shop. And I just have to say that the sentiment that just because someone has chosen to live up in that area, they should be penalized by having to live with substandard roads is asinine. This region has become increasingly expensive to live in and for many, suburban areas are the only affordable place to live. The notion that these people should be penalized because they cannot afford to live in South Tampa or other urban areas is completely ridiculous. And this is coming from a resident of south Tampa.

When they move.... they take the tax base with them. Why shouldn't they be responsible for paying a toll. Why should I pay the up-keep on a road that was built for them when I live in South Tampa. We should charge 5 dollars each way maybe all those people will think twice about clogging this state in sprawl.

And why should people who do not live in south Tampa pay for roads or strom water drainage there. IF you choose to live where it floods, learn to swim . . .

Typical silly attitude in this area that is the cause of so many problems - to wit, why should people who live in areas where rail transit will not reach pay for it? (which is exactly what the county commissioners say all the time)

How are you being "penalized" I pay a toll everyday when I get on the crosstown, it is a part of life. Why shouldnt people who use the road help maintain it. If you contribute to sprawl you should have some responsibilty. I dont understand why people want all the comforts of city life and want all the infrastructure right up to thier doorstep but when it comes to paying for it.....

^^
Well, then answer this question. If people want the "city life" with "all the infrastructure right up to thier doorstep", then why did people oppose things like the West Crosstown? And I ask this with taking financial burdens out of the equation.

And I just have to say that the sentiment that just because someone has chosen to live up in that area, they should be penalized by having to live with substandard roads is asinine.
I totally agree. They should have everything they need to live a good, high quality lifestyle... And they should pay for the development of their infrastructure, not have it subsidized by the rest of us.

It seems ot me that people move to the sticks, and then promptly expect three things... That nobody else can move near them... That they should be able to travel to the city for work and leisure, and should have sway over what gets built in the city, but that they pay nothing to support the city... And three, that all people everywhere should be taxed to pay for the development of their own infrastructure in the sticks....

^^ I agree with those statements to an extent. However, if we are talking about New Tampa and I thought we were (at least I was), that area is within the Tampa City limits and subject to the same taxes that the rest of us pay that live closer in to the urban core. They are not being subsidizing by anybody - if anything, they are subsidizing the conveniences that we enjoy. My only point is that if you want to place the blame for sprawl, place it on the governments that allow and even encourage it to happen. Don't blame it on the poor schmo who moves out to New Tampa because it is the only area that he can afford a decent house.

^^ I agree with those statements to an extent. However, if we are talking about New Tampa and I thought we were (at least I was), that area is within the Tampa City limits and subject to the same taxes that the rest of us pay that live closer in to the urban core. They are not being subsidizing by anybody - if anything, they are subsidizing the conveniences that we enjoy. My only point is that if you want to place the blame for sprawl, place it on the governments that allow and even encourage it to happen. Don't blame it on the poor schmo who moves out to New Tampa because it is the only area that he can afford a decent house.

Agreed, there are lots of govts in the US that entice urban sprawl and its stupid too. These govts don't realize just yet what kind of negative impacts that urban sprawl has on the environment. Tampa is NOT one of those areas however. In fact Tampa has done quite a lot to redevelop existing areas for additional residential space. Yes, Tampa needs to do more to combat urban sprawl, but at least the progress so far is a good foundation for better growth management in the Bay Area.

^The people running the government know what sprawl does... They do not care...

County-line toll going nowhere

Hillsborough roads will be stressed by a Pasco project, but no funding is planned to help.

By BILL COATS, Times Staff Writer
Published October 16, 2007
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TAMPA - Hillsborough County toll booths on Bruce B. Downs Boulevard? The proposal was only half-serious in August, and that's not going to change now.

County Attorney Renee Lee says the county has the legal right to erect the toll booths, but "it's not really a viable solution right now."

Lee said her office won't be writing a formal opinion for Hillsborough County commissioners, who asked Lee on Aug. 15 to explore the idea.

Hillsborough has been miffed for months that Pasco County approved the 12,500-home Wiregrass development off Bruce B. Downs but required the developer to improve only Pasco County roads.

Thousands of Pasco residents drive into Hillsborough on the overloaded Bruce B. Downs, and Hillsborough is undertaking a $130-million construction project to widen the northern half of the boulevard to eight lanes.

Pasco, meanwhile, required the Wiregrass developers to make $579-million in road improvements, but rejected Hillsborough's request that the developers pay $28-million toward the Bruce B. Downs widening.

That prompted County Commissioner Ken Hagan, whose north Hillsborough district includes Bruce B. Downs, to raise the toll booth issue. Hagan couldn't be reached for comment Monday.

Since August, Hillsborough has focused on trying to persuade state officials - who can veto projects as large as Wiregrass - to prod Pasco into a deal with Hillsborough. Pasco has responded that north Hillsborough's lack of an east-west highway has forced traffic onto State Roads 54 and 56 in Pasco, and Hillsborough doesn't deserve any aid.

The state Department of Community Affairs decided that the decision was Pasco's. The final decision goes to Gov. Charlie Crist and the Florida Cabinet, and Hillsborough hopes to argue its case there.

Lee said Hillsborough continues to ask for a dialogue with Pasco on the topic, but is getting no response.

"I think the legal channels have become the priority over the toll booths," Lee said.

Meanwhile, toll booths would pose ly questions. In a draft memo, one of Lee's assistants said businesses along Bruce B. Downs might file legal claims based on the county's toll booths impairing access to their stores.

Or, Lee asked, "Would they be one way? Two-way? Do you have the property?"

Bill Coats can be reached at 813 269-5309 or coats@sptimes.com.

[Last modified October 15, 2007, 23:14:01]

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/10/16/Hillsborough/County_line_toll_goin.shtml

This plan will die before anything else is done... :lol:

I'm kind of in huge support of this now.
Screw the 'burban people; let them pay a toll to go down a stupid road.
They should have to pay for causing ridiculous amounts of traffic, while they don't pay for taxes in our city, or county.

JBrisco,
I live in Meadow Point just over the line in Pasco, and I am one of these "'burban people" that you would like to screw, and frankly, I do not want to be screwed..... However, I actually am for the tolls should it get to that. Now, mind you, I would want them in both directions though, that would be fair. The traffic is only going to increase for people coming into Pasco once the new malls open, plus all of the New Tampa people coming into Super Target...there does need to be a solution, hey maybe a bus going along BBD, then you would not have to pay the tolls, and we could get some real transit in the area - or even better a light rail line...but I can dream...

I would absolutly LOVE to live more in the city, DT would be fantastic. BUT, as you will find when you are looking for a house, it is near to impossible to get a reasonably priced house for the same size and condition that one can find in the suburbs - at least in a decent are of town. This is the quandry that most people living in the burbs have, you must trade price for size and condition. I hate spraw, but when it comes to reality, I can afford a much nicer house in the suburbs than I can in town, and I will make comprimises, as many people must.

I envy that you can live in/near UT, that is fantastic, but a 900 sq ft condo in Skypoint costs the same as a 2,000 sq ft house in the burbs - even if I would go for it you have to remember that, odds are when you are in that position you have to be in agreement with your wife/partner/roomates about where this house/condo is going to be. This is life, and real life has compromises, and many, or most, people will compromise a size and price of a house for distance from the core CBD.

With all that said, I actually am going to go to the Element sales center next weekend to see about their condos, but again, there will be compromises.

Steve

I lived in the farm areas of Tampa my whole life, its not farms anymore though, because of these suburbs, and you may have found reasonable pricing for homes out there, but where I live in N. Tampa, the pricing is outrageous. 1 million dollars just for a land plot? Are you joking? That's not even close to Tampa at all its like 30 miles! And its atleast 10 miles from anything where you can get food, or find a major road. My parents house in 1974 was worth 24,000. Now, its worth over 700k. And the house sucks, its tiny, it has no foundation, it was built by the farmer who lived there prior to us in 1920 something. Houses are not more reasonably priced in my part of the 'burbs. The asking price for houses in town are much more reasonable especially in Hyde Park, West Tampa, and DT. My biggest issue with most burban people (especially from my part of Tampa (Keystone)) is that they all want city amenities, with out the city. What do I mean? We don't want sidewalks, but we want our kids to be safe? We want more development, but we don't want to increase the capacity of the road when its been over capacity for decades? We want to rid the area of all farms because its seen as low class? How can you maintain a rural atmosphere that they are asking for with out farms?
One of the only good things about U.T is the dorms, I would pay to live here forever, alas, the academics suck.
I think its great what they're doing in Pasco(in terms of the semi-urban development of Odessa, and some of the things going on North of Bruce B. Downs), but this toll should be both ways as you said, and it will hopefully encourage people to live closer to the city, rather than creating this ridiculous traffic through this horrid sprawl that is destroying the environment and eventually a tax payers burden as Rob said.
I don't want to screw burban' people, I'm just saying that this would encourage people to stop this ridiculous sprawl. As you mentioned though, it will be difficult finding a home that my family will be able to agree upon. But I can not live in the area I grew up in, nor in the suburbs at all. I hate it.

I know this is real life, and its about comprimises, but I just will not live in the suburbs, thats not how I want to spend the rest of my days.
Excuse me for my rudeness, or prejudism. I've just had some awful experiences in the 'burbs.

And now that I think of it, I would pay a toll on Gunn Hwy, if it meant that they were actually going to do anything to it, and if it meant people would stop using it as much. Likewise if I lived out that way and used that road.

I do agree with what you said. IF the toll money went towards infrastructure improvements that would be ideal..but we all know how that goes...

I live in the Meadow Pointe subdivision of Wesley Chapel. The houses range in this zone (since the real estate bubble burst):
1,200 sq ft - 1,750 sq ft - $175,000 - $230,000 (all built within 10 or less years)
1,800 sq ft- 2,500 sq ft - $250,000 - $325,000 (all built within 10 or less years)

These are nice houses in a safe neighborhood with wide sidewalks, and near things like grocery stores, restaurants, and there are community centers with swimming pools and a club house with a gym.

But, with all of that you are right, people do want city ammenities without the city...as if that could exist. I really mean to say that I would absolutly love to live DT, or in a urban environment, but when I bought my home it just was not in the cards, I hope it will in the next few years, but again, it comes back to compromises.

I did not mean to sound antagonistic, I just feel a bit defensive when I am being told to be screwed - especially when I agree with the issue, such as this toll idea.

Steve

Just hope that the money is actually going where they say it is, and that they are not actually screwing you, as Hillsborough County tends to do.
Thats very nice, I still couldn't live out there. My myopia is the ability to walk anywhere I needed, as opposed to having to drive. My road rage gets on my nerves too much. Which is why I can't live in the 'burbs.

And now that I think of it, I would pay a toll on Gunn Hwy, if it meant that they were actually going to do anything to it, and if it meant people would stop using it as much. Likewise if I lived out that way and used that road.

That wouldn't be a bad idea either. I remember Jason ranting about how neglected Gunn Hwy is and how major projects for the road keep getting shoved back. :lol:

And now that I think of it, I would pay a toll on Gunn Hwy, if it meant that they were actually going to do anything to it, and if it meant people would stop using it as much. Likewise if I lived out that way and used that road.
That would only make the situation worse. There is other alternatives to getting through Gunn Highway, but these roads are only 2 Lanes and are already busy on weekends. Gunn Highway is the only other way to get into Hillborough from West Pasco instead of taking Suncoast Parkway. And it's not like we are using it to just piss people in the area off, it's because as I said, West Pasco residents can get to Citrus Park, TIA and Westshore faster instead of taking Suncoast and waiting to pay tolls if you don't have a SunPass.

And also, I don't get what you mean when you say "Stop using as much". Are you saying that we should toll other roads? US 19? Courtney Campbell (sp?)? Howard Franklin? It just seems like making Gunn Highway as a toll road would do worse than good.

^^
Perhaps it's not the best idea to toll Gunn Hwy. But having tolled lanes on US 19, now that would not be a bad option. The same thing is being proposed for I-75 (see related thread).

^^ Like US 19 doesn't have enough traffic problems :rolleyes:

The only stretch that I could see having a toll booth is Gandy. It gets it fair amount of traffic and won't cause a 2 mile back-up.

Anyone know ehre the money from the Sunshine Skyway tolls go to?

Well It would piss people off to complain to the county governments to make more N/S roads, it would also give the county money to do something about the traffic on Gunn Hwy.
There is a road that connects 54 to Lutz Lake Fern Rd. they could use and add a light so people would be shifted over there then they could go to Dale Mabry and get to the veterans or use the veterans exchange there.
There are a lot of exisiting options the counties have but don't use.
And don't forget that Gunn Hwy is 2 lane through Hillsborough County, because they believe its not used enough to become 4 lane like it is in Pasco.
The issue is that the HC doesn't want to spend money on making more N/S roads when they can just ignore citizens pleas, and just widen it. They deal with less bitching from residents, while there still is a lot from widening, but they none the less deal with less because with making a whole new road they have to clear the right of way bla bla bla. But As I said there are a lot of roads they could decide to make major roads and they would ease traffic on Gunn.

I'm kind of in huge support of this now.
Screw the 'burban people; let them pay a toll to go down a stupid road.
They should have to pay for causing ridiculous amounts of traffic, while they don't pay for taxes in our city, or county.

Not only am I in favor of a two-way toll on BBD to pay for all of its widenings, but I am also in favor of a tax that will wall the road off at the county line. It would be worth a few bucks to me to shut all of those people up.lolololol

Not only am I in favor of a two-way toll on BBD to pay for all of its widenings, but I am in favor of a tax that will wall it off. It would be worth a few bucks to me to shut all of those people up.lolololol

Very nice. :lol:

^^ Like US 19 doesn't have enough traffic problems :rolleyes:

The only stretch that I could see having a toll booth is Gandy. It gets it fair amount of traffic and won't cause a 2 mile back-up.

Anyone know ehre the money from the Sunshine Skyway tolls go to?

Gandy, yeah right. I don't see that happening on the Tampa side at least. Pinellas, fat chance. The last (and only) time Gandy had a toll was for the original bridge prior to WWII. Though I think a toll on Gandy is not a bad option, it is an option that I dislike.

I think the Skyway tolls go to the state. But I'm not for sure. I don't even think the Turnpike Enterprise has anything to do with the plazas aside from everyday operation.

Not only am I in favor of a two-way toll on BBD to pay for all of its widenings, but I am also in favor of a tax that will wall the road off at the county line. It would be worth a few bucks to me to shut all of those people up.lolololol

:rofl:

How about building a fortress at the county line. Beat that Jason! :rofl:

How about building a fortress at the county line. Beat that Jason! :rofl:

How about a Maginot line at the county line.... bahahah.

I have a better idea... Return the land in that area to its natural state... Perhaps then the drive along BBD would be of something attractive, instead of a drive showcasing auto-dependent exurban idiocy, executed to oppressive perfection.

At least a good portion of BBD has bike lanes now.... :okay:

Steve

Yay for bike lanes! :cheer:
We need more of them.

Jason, I'd wish a lot of this sprawl didn't happen, but oh well. I just don't wish for all of Hillsborough to become a sprawl land, but these politicians don't want to do anything about it. :ohno: