Well that's the info according to the newspaper, which printed a picture of the Torch and said it was one of the 8 towers given permission.

I imagine they require a permit to begin contruction - i.e. before they potentially build something unsafe. Hence a lot of towers stalling at the foundations.

Tractor,
Any recent shots from your bar stool in Grosvenor House ? :cheers:

TIA

i did mate... all i see is people screaming at naz b/c hes a dubai select lad.

Dubai Select lad? In as much as I have bought an apartment in the Torch, like many others. Only, I don't cry live on air, about how I was kidding myself that nothing would be built around the Torch until reality hit home.

Another pic thanks to www.hidubai.com :

http://www.hidubai.com/pictures/TT MH Works.jpg

Not sure what this equipment is - is it a vibro-hammer that will put steel into the ground so they can excavate? If so, doesn't look like there will be very deep excavation here (so far) ...

What the hell are you on about,,,,,,,,,,,,, The view aint that important. Of course it is that is why we all brought in the MARINA. to see boats yeah. You can fill them up with as much b&o gear as you like, if your looking onto someone elses balcony and not down that marina, you --cked up big style. Not alot happened on TT over the past 10 days while we were there although big activity on the point everyday. 250k must of been some pad.

I don't find it important but if you want to rent it out it is

Look at it this way--You simply pay more for an apartment on a higher floor, even if all other factors are identical (size, layout, orientation, etc.). Depending on how high you go this can be 10%, 20%, 30% and more. Clearly some people (myself being one--in a different tower) are paying up to Dhs 100,000, 200,000 and more, just for the view.

So, some people will be very justifiably angry if they were misled in this regard. The problem is, what can you do about it post-mortem, so to speak. There is obviously no truth-in-advertising law in the UAE.

Just for peoples' information - the above machine is drilling holes into the sand and they are inserting what appear to be steel girders (bottom right of picture, lying on floor) into the ground.

Whether this is all the retention they plan for that area I don't know - if it is I think it would be safe to assume the building will be pretty low-rise.

Emaar originaly said the marina would be develped to maximise water views from buildings.. so there is a chance it will misalign these buildings to minimise impact on TT & MH. but then again.. Emaar love to make money...

I have heard from another source that there will be 3 towers in front of MH and the Torch, 35, 40 and 54 floors. Not sure which is where. DUBAI is correct that if they set the middle one back perhaps between MH and TT owners of both sides will be able to get a good view still to the sides.

I would say this is the most likely layout now

http://i13.tinypic.com/2vs5cif.jpg

Which would give views to the sides for all marina facing MH and TT owners as well as give uninterrupted views to a new tower between TT and MH.

Also leaves room for shops and restaurants in the very front.

Could be a hotel and mall complex still with connecting base.

What the hell are you on about,,,,,,,,,,,,, The view aint that important. Of course it is that is why we all brought in the MARINA. to see boats yeah. You can fill them up with as much b&o gear as you like, if your looking onto someone elses balcony and not down that marina, you --cked up big style. Not alot happened on TT over the past 10 days while we were there although big activity on the point everyday. 250k must of been some pad.

True, but The Torch is so far away from the water edge to make anyone confortable that their views will remain "un-interrupted", despite what an realty agent may say.

I think the views are the least of owners worries. This project is looking less and less likely to be finished before 2010 so the fact that many have paid 75% worries me.

Owners should have stopped their payments long ago and served a due dilligence notice on the developer. The developer has set up the payment structure on the basis of a completion date which is not going to be acheived. If they don't keep their side and can't demonstrate due dilligence then you are within your rights to withold payments. Cries of busting the company are scare mongering, because if they did go bust at this stage with say 50% income from sales, then they were never going to finish it.

Time to focus on the real issues, the views are a convenient distraction for DS at the moment.

The investors who have taken the lengthy payment scheme have only paid just over 30% so far which is normal for all developments at this stage.

You will see the tower rise in the next few months and then will go very quickly. Should be topped out by end of 2008 no problem.

DS's other development Bay Central is backed up by Escrow system. So would be no problems there.

I have heard from another source that there will be 3 towers in front of MH and the Torch, 35, 40 and 54 floors. Not sure which is where. DUBAI is correct that if they set the middle one back perhaps between MH and TT owners of both sides will be able to get a good view still to the sides.

I hope Emaar agree with your thinking Steve.

In between MH and TT is definately the most sensible place to stick the biggest tower (54F), with the smaller ones in front.

By the looks of things nothing will be built directly in front of aspect 06 apts in TT.
Aspect 05 owners (including yours truly) will have a more nervous wait to see how high that 1st tower is gonna be.

I think the views are the least of owners worries. This project is looking less and less likely to be finished before 2010 so the fact that many have paid 75% worries me.

Owners should have stopped their payments long ago and served a due dilligence notice on the developer. The developer has set up the payment structure on the basis of a completion date which is not going to be acheived. If they don't keep their side and can't demonstrate due dilligence then you are within your rights to withold payments. Cries of busting the company are scare mongering, because if they did go bust at this stage with say 50% income from sales, then they were never going to finish it.

Time to focus on the real issues, the views are a convenient distraction for DS at the moment.

Unfortunately this ridiculous type of action would be breach of contract and purchasers would without doubt lose all their investment. The fact that you didn't purchase in TT and criticise every aspect of this tower, does not give you the right True Blue to come up with such BS suggestions. Completion likely Dec 2008 at the latest so nothing major to worry about here.

I think the views are the least of owners worries. This project is looking less and less likely to be finished before 2010 so the fact that many have paid 75% worries me.

Owners should have stopped their payments long ago and served a due dilligence notice on the developer. The developer has set up the payment structure on the basis of a completion date which is not going to be acheived. If they don't keep their side and can't demonstrate due dilligence then you are within your rights to withold payments. Cries of busting the company are scare mongering, because if they did go bust at this stage with say 50% income from sales, then they were never going to finish it.

Time to focus on the real issues, the views are a convenient distraction for DS at the moment.


I personally don't see the need to panic at this moment - IMO it's a classic case of a watched pot taking longer to boil. Many folks are looking on here everyday expecting this thing to shoot out of the ground.

Bear in mind the penalty clauses in the contracts - TT owners get compensation after 6 month delay whereas (and please correct me if I'm wrong) The Point and Bay Central will be allowed to overrun by 12 months before the compo kicks in.

^^ Post 455. I hope it is.

The thing I can see happening that might not be obvious to non construction guys is this. The Torch has missed an opportunity to get going while there is plenty of space round about to make use of for storing the massive amount of equipment that is needed on a project of this nature. All that space has now dissappeared as Emaar move in.

If I was the frame contractor I would be asking how much extra are you going to pay me for double handling all my materials and kit from a nearby site. Also how much extra time are you going to allow me for carrying out this unforeseen activity. This will be passed down the line to all the subs who will now be asking the same questions.

Unfortunately this ridiculous type of action would be breach of contract and purchasers would without doubt lose all their investment. The fact that you didn't purchase in TT and criticise every aspect of this tower, does not give you the right True Blue to come up with such BS suggestions. Completion likely Dec 2009 at the latest so nothing major to worry about here.

Agreed Morris, this type of thoughtless action would cause more problems than people realise both for themselves and for every other investor. People just need to be more patient and stop panicking, otherwise they should have invested in low risk Govt bonds.

I don't see much of a delay problem with TT at this stage. Work on piling was not particulary slow and considering that Municipality already issued the Building Licence, there should be no further delays for the main contractor to start.

However, a completition date of Dec 08 is totally un-realistic; a year later yes. The roof feature alone will take many months to complete.

I hope Emaar agree with your thinking Steve.

In between MH and TT is definately the most sensible place to stick the biggest tower (54F), with the smaller ones in front.

By the looks of things nothing will be built directly in front of aspect 06 apts in TT.
Aspect 05 owners (including yours truly) will have a more nervous wait to see how high that 1st tower is gonna be.

That is why I think there will be a very low rise building or car park/mall on the front middle plot. So you would still get a good marina view in 05 apt also if that was the case. Lets hope so!

The thing I can see happening that might not be obvious to non construction guys is this. The Torch has missed an opportunity to get going while there is plenty of space round about to make use of for storing the massive amount of equipment that is needed on a project of this nature. All that space has now dissappeared as Emaar move in.

If I was the frame contractor I would be asking how much extra are you going to pay me for double handling all my materials and kit from a nearby site. Also how much extra time are you going to allow me for carrying out this unforeseen activity. This will be passed down the line to all the subs who will now be asking the same questions.

Now this is a VERY good point and lets hope the main contractor didn't made the same mistake as some buyers here, who thought nothing will be build in front, and planned accordinly.

That is why I think there will be a very low rise building or car park/mall on the front middle plot. So you would still get a good marina view in 05 apt also if that was the case. Lets hope so!

Agreed - although the view would only be available from the corner balcony perhaps.

The positioning of the 1st plot would entirely block the view from both the bedroom and living room windows facing onto the marina.

However, a completition date of Dec 08 is totally un-realistic; a year later yes. The roof feature alone will take many months to complete.

I don't think that end of 08 is unrealistic if they go fast or use a double jump platform system which someone herre said they were planning to. 1 floor per week would make it possible to top out the building by 3rd quarter of 08. And it is possible to go faster than that.

^^ They may complete the main structure by then, but you'll not be able to take the keys to your apartments, even the roof feature with the screen on top will not be completed.

^^ mid 09 is realistic for key handover then which is 1 year later than anticipated completion date in the contracts which seems to be the norm so far. eg. Marina Heights.

Unfortunately this ridiculous type of action would be breach of contract and purchasers would without doubt lose all their investment. The fact that you didn't purchase in TT and criticise every aspect of this tower, does not give you the right True Blue to come up with such BS suggestions. Completion likely Dec 2009 at the latest so nothing major to worry about here.

Your comments show how little you know about contract law!

You don't have to purchase to have an opinion!

I do not criticise every aspect of this tower, I have restricted my views to the lack of general progress here!

"Completion end of Dec 09 at latest" isn't far away from my guess of not before 2010 (1 Day) so are you agreeing?

The fact that you make such a swift response makes me wonder if there are computers logged onto SSC in every DS sales office.

Furthermore your latest post on The Jewels thread sums you up nicely.

Your comments show how little you know about contract law!

You don't have to purchase to have an opinion!

I do not criticise every aspect of this tower, I have restricted my views to the lack of general progress here!

"Completion end of Dec 09 at latest" isn't far away from my guess of not before 2010 (1 Day) so are you agreeing?

The fact that you make such a swift response makes me wonder if there are computers logged onto SSC in every DS sales office.

Furthermore your latest post on The Jewels thread sums you up nicely.

True Blue you're even getting me mixed up with the dates now.... I should have stated completion by Dec 2008.

Regards your other comments, I can see what's happened now......I've said The Jewels look like two rugby balls, you're buying there, get upset and then retaliate by posting your old chestnut on the TT thread about the TT completion date. I'm really sorry.....didn't realise you were so sensitive.....I'll be more careful in future.

Anyway......must get back to work as my boss Mark Stott's been round and had a go at me for being on the internet again !!! :)

I just wanted to say that I haven't been posting information here to upset anyone, I just know how frustrating lack of pics/info can be when not in Dubai and felt my information was concrete enough to be of use.

At the end of the day they'd have to cover the Torch in paper to delete everyone's views completely ... even the Al Marsa (Emirates) tower and the Emirates Crown have a surprising amount of space between them. Photos never do justice to the true scale of things ... this place is massive! Something that looks close is actually a 10min walk away.

Unobstructed views are becomming a massive premium, with a penthouse in the Fattan towers up for sale at 15million Dhs. Equivalent size apatements in Emaar's Phase I are going for 11million.

The location of the Marina is a very desirable one and as the plots are all built on, and construction costs increase, prices can only go up.

I just wanted to say that I haven't been posting information here to upset anyone, I just know how frustrating lack of pics/info can be when not in Dubai and felt my information was concrete enough to be of use.

At the end of the day they'd have to cover the Torch in paper to delete everyone's views completely ... even the Al Marsa (Emirates) tower and the Emirates Crown have a surprising amount of space between them. Photos never do justice to the true scale of things ... this place is massive! Something that looks close is actually a 10min walk away.

Unobstructed views are becomming a massive premium, with a penthouse in the Fattan towers up for sale at 15million Dhs. Equivalent size apatements in Emaar's Phase I are going for 11million.

The location of the Marina is a very desirable one and as the plots are all built on, and construction costs increase, prices can only go up.

Thanks for your posts Tractor......your info is always appreciated.

True Blue you're even getting me mixed up with the dates now.... I should have stated completion by Dec 2008.

Regards your other comments, I can see what's happened now......I've said The Jewels look like two rugby balls, you're buying there, get upset and then retaliate by posting your old chestnut on the TT thread about the TT completion date. I'm really sorry.....didn't realise you were so sensitive.....I'll be more careful in future.

Anyway......must get back to work as my boss Mark Stott's been round and had a go at me for being on the internet again !!! :)

I like the clever way you blame me for your mistake with the dates. Your insistance that it will be complete 2008 does not make sense unless you are part of the propoganda machine. Unless, like my grandmother used to say, "there are none so blind as those who won't see"

My previous post was not retaliation to yours on The Jewels, I'm not that childish. It was an attempt to cue the investors to not let things get away from them. Done genuinely with good intention. I myself served a due dilligence notice on Cayan as it was clear that The Jewels was not going to meet its 30th Dec 06 date. Cayan issued a revised completion date together with a new payment schedule delaying payments by three months. Have DS issued such notices? I don't think so, but I may be wrong.

Your comments about Mark Stott do remind me of another saying, "many a true word spoken in jest!"

This thread does not belong to DS or its investors, its an open forum and I will contine to post as I see fit. I'm sure you will also!

HAPPY NEW YEAR! :cheers1:

Thanks True Blue.....no hard feelings.

Have a Happy New Year as well from me and all my colleagues at Dubai Select.

^^ Like an old Madonna tune of the same name, boring. Please change the record.

Anyway......must get back to work as my boss Mark Stott's been round and had a go at me for being on the internet again !!!
Today 03:51 PM


Morris, Can you get me a copy of the construction programme (only kidding), Can anybody do please? I was at the site today and the only good thing about this visit was the meal I had in the Marina area. Completion 2008 (no Chance),2009 doable if they stop all traffic around the site area (Entry and Exit points) and borrow the land in the side/front to use(again no chance), start of 2010 looks possible at the moment for getting the keys but who knows. Still like the area but I wish that people start taking note of the advise given by people with construction management background and stop insulting each other. Comparing with my other investment in the Marina, this is not a great investment and despite what Naz says, by 2010 this might turn out to be a very bad move for me personally due to the number of units that will be available at that time.

Morris, Can you get me a copy of the construction programme (only kidding), Can anybody do please? I was at the site today and the only good thing about this visit was the meal I had in the Marina area. Completion 2008 (no Chance),2009 doable if they stop all traffic around the site area (Entry and Exit points) and borrow the land in the side/front to use(again no chance), start of 2010 looks possible at the moment for getting the keys but who knows. Still like the area but I wish that people start taking note of the advise given by people with construction management background and stop insulting each other. Comparing with my other investment in the Marina, this is not a great investment and despite what Naz says, by 2010 this might turn out to be a very bad move for me personally due to the number of units that will be available at that time.


No problem......the construction programme shows completion by 1st June 2008.

I think the point regarding the lack of space around the torch is very valid and concerning. However I also have the opinion that it is not normal for so many buildings to be constructed simultaneously as we are witnessing in Dubai. It is normally the case that the tower is being errected in an already built up area and the luxury of having empty plots for storage is very rare. I admit I have no experience of the construction industry but I do have a few clients that are in the field. All have their own methods of project management and have perfected a "Just in time" supply chain protocol. Surely towers must have been built in Deira/Bur Dubai recently that didn't have the luxury of empty plots for storage.

NEB are no small fish and they must have some sort of clout and influence on their supply chain and surely they have experience of building in built up areas.
Excuse me for thinking out loud but the following points come to mind:

1- There is no boarding between the TT plot and the plot next to it, considering EMAAR only seem to be putting up a perimiter wall and are not doing any excavation just yet, NEB could us ethe plot for a few months.

2- There is space between the plot and the main road where they have a potacabin which can be moved if required.

3- Other towers with no empty plots for storage seem to be going up pretty ok.

I am not disagreeing with any of you out there with construction experience, just thinking out loud that not having empty plots nearby can't really be a train smash can it?? It may add a few months to the schedule but surely not a year/years??

Just my $0.02

most plots have to be built this way anyhow, getting permission for storage, use e.t.c. in areas like this would be a nightmare. a lot of towers are built JIT, it shouldnt effect the speed if the contractor knows what they are doing.

Morris, Can you get me a copy of the construction programme (only kidding), Can anybody do please? I was at the site today and the only good thing about this visit was the meal I had in the Marina area. Completion 2008 (no Chance),2009 doable if they stop all traffic around the site area (Entry and Exit points) and borrow the land in the side/front to use(again no chance), start of 2010 looks possible at the moment for getting the keys but who knows. Still like the area but I wish that people start taking note of the advise given by people with construction management background and stop insulting each other. Comparing with my other investment in the Marina, this is not a great investment and despite what Naz says, by 2010 this might turn out to be a very bad move for me personally due to the number of units that will be available at that time.


Dear Fellow Investors

Morris, Can you get me a copy of the construction programme (only kidding), Can anybody do please? I was at the site today and the only good thing about this visit was the meal I had in the Marina area. Completion 2008 (no Chance),2009 doable if they stop all traffic around the site area (Entry and Exit points) and borrow the land in the side/front to use(again no chance), start of 2010 looks possible at the moment for getting the keys but who knows. Still like the area but I wish that people start taking note of the advise given by people with construction management background and stop insulting each other. Comparing with my other investment in the Marina, this is not a great investment and despite what Naz says, by 2010 this might turn out to be a very bad move for me personally due to the number of units that will be available at that time.


Dear Fellow Investors

I dont entirely agree with the above statement, some i do but not all, firstly im not happy with ds and the lack of news regarding the plots in front, But the statement above " comparing with over investments this is not a great investment cimoaring to others in the marina" Yes it true but have you seen the prices of the "other investments in the marina" . Emaar new marina prominade a 2 bed goes for 1,695,000. so really investors we pay for what we get. But unobstructed views is our goldmine, if we achieve that we are in gold.

Just as a comparison, the Marina Heights - developed by Balfour Beatty - has taken about 3 years (from foundations) to complete and is 9 months late.

Personally, and it is just my opinion, I think 2010 is a realistic completition date for The Torch.

isn't the hole dug in the Emaar sales office is where the base of the old building was? ie they dug that to remove the old foundation not a new one?

^^ yes you could be right about that which may mean that the tower in front of the torch might not placed at the same position shifted to the right of the torch. Does anyone have an updated emaar plot photo ?

isn't the hole dug in the Emaar sales office is where the base of the old building was? ie they dug that to remove the old foundation not a new one?

Very good point. It does make you wonder what the land to the left of the hole would be used for.

The gun may have been well and truly jumped on this one.

Despite what people are reading on the ground, I say the image below still has the most merit. After all, it is the only image we have, it comes from Emaar's own recent prospectus, and in the the full Marina map the Marina Mall drawing, for example, matches what is actually getting built to a T.

What you have in this is a huge podium, which takes care of all the parking issues, and an iconic main structure with a broad face that makes the most of Marina views. No doubt, this is something Emaar has planned, otherwise it wouldn't be in the diagram. The only question is whether it is in fact current. But as I've said, this is the only thing we've seen on paper which probably has more weight than this or that agent saying 3 buildings, 4 buildings and the like. As we've seen, the sales agents either never know what's really going on or they never really reveal what they actually know.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v663/Upandhi/Dubai%20Marina/Emaarproject.jpg

^^ would like to think so but the problem is that the site development manager has told 2 different people that there will be 3 towers in front of TT and MH, 1 of them being 54 floors. Whether that is just a cover up or not is another question.

If they were going to make a 'cover up' they wouldn't lie and say it'll be something that will annoy TT and MH owners.

The image above clearly looks out of place on the map - it could have been taken from anywhere just to fill the space.

The retention work continues all along the marina edge, I will mark a photo and paste here. They are going really deep (looks deeper than TT to me, but hard to tell).

I'd be very surprised if they have landscaped gardens in between TT and MH - Prime plot space for a tower.

The scaling looks a bit suspect - the depth of TT looks to be half of MH, although I do realise it's only a brochure image.

http://www.hidubai.com/pictures/Emaar Plot Works 2.JPG

Red line is the retention wall they're constructing (nearly done in this area I would say) ...

The green oval is an area they made into something like a pool where they deposit the water/liquid from the drilling, after sand is extracted.

I still think it is possible the tallest building will be next to the Al Marsa/Emirates Tower, just next to the road between them. This is where most of action has taken place so far.

Before I get banned for being mildly rude to Smussuw (who seems to be exempt from the same rules as us) I thought I'd post something to cheer all the investors in the Torch up:

http://www.hidubai.com/pictures/Torch Crane.JPG

You guys have a crane!! Happy New Year all.

Pls excuse my ignorance but is that scaffolding attached to the walls of the hole in the last pic?

Whatever it is, it doesn't appear to be on the previous pic - so things do seem to be happening.

Hi Rider - there has been scaffolding on the interior walls of the plot for some time - not sure what they've been doing to them, perhaps waterproofing or something?

The appearance of the crane seems to indicate they'll start actually building the basement very soon (they don't tend to rent these things and not use them!)

Hi Rider - there has been scaffolding on the interior walls of the plot for some time - not sure what they've been doing to them, perhaps waterproofing or something?

The appearance of the crane seems to indicate they'll start actually building the basement very soon (they don't tend to rent these things and not use them!)

Thanks for the info Tractor.

I hope you're right about the crane and it wasn't a case of the crane driver taking a wrong turning or stopping for a quick siesta!

Look at the bottom of the crane, its not a mobile one :)

Look at the bottom of the crane, its not a mobile one :)

I was looking at the little pick-up in front of the plot - :lol:

The Site Guard Let me in for a few Photos.

http://i12.tinypic.com/485aiw9.jpg

http://i10.tinypic.com/2vknehz.jpg

http://i17.tinypic.com/47hv3on.jpg

http://i12.tinypic.com/2rzsapg.jpg

http://i16.tinypic.com/2afdc8j.jpg

http://i12.tinypic.com/2hgyfeg.jpg

The Site between Marina Hieght and The Torch

http://i16.tinypic.com/3yxg7wm.jpg


More to follow and hopfully some inside information !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great pics Mackie....many, many thanks. :)

Other than those two guards, there was nobody on site to speak to, they did not know anything as you would expect. Will be back to speak to the site Manager soon and I have also arranged to meet someone that could shed some light on this.

http://i14.tinypic.com/47vabg6.jpg

http://i14.tinypic.com/4541w07.jpg

http://i16.tinypic.com/2rctrhj.jpg

http://i13.tinypic.com/44rx20w.jpg

http://i16.tinypic.com/2qbda47.jpg

http://i18.tinypic.com/34qs6bm.jpg

Dear iNVESTORS

i have some good news in front of the torch their will be a podium with towers. I do not know how tall are these towers. But i do know 100% it is dubai marina PHASE 2. i found this out after speaking to emaar properties development team

Dear iNVESTORS

i have some good news in front of the torch their will be a podium with towers. I do not know how tall are these towers. But i do know 100% it is dubai marina PHASE 2. i found this out after speaking to emaar properties development team

I'm not sure we can call this good news until we know how tall those babies will be.

A reminder of Dubai Marina Phase 1:

"Dubai Marina Phase 1 consists of six towers--three named after precious stones, Al Mass (28 floors*), Fairooz (20) and Murjan (37)--and three named after Arabic scents--Mesk (37), Anbar (16) and Al Yass (24)."

Dear iNVESTORS

i have some good news in front of the torch their will be a podium with towers. I do not know how tall are these towers. But i do know 100% it is dubai marina PHASE 2. i found this out after speaking to emaar properties development team

When did you speak to the Emaar development team ? Did they say how tall the towers could be ? Wont be good news if big towers.

again I'm sure these will not be over 35-40 floors, I don't think there is any reason for TT investors to panic

Project: The Torch
Type: Residential
Developer: Dubai Select
Floor Count: 84
Height: 345m to spire (subject to change)
Status: Under Construction
Construction Start: 2005
Construction End: 2009 (tentative)

Link to Part 3 (http://www1.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=376633)


http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/5545/torchmz2.jpg

From p3...

have some good news in front of the torch their will be a podium with towers. I do not know how tall are these towers. But i do know 100% it is dubai marina PHASE 2. i found this out after speaking to emaar properties development team

There is no way the designs for phase 2 could fit in this area.

it is likley to be drasticly redesigned and possibly renamed. I dont know why emaar would claim they are doing phase 2 after selling 2/3rds of the land they need to build it!

From p3...
There is no way the designs for phase 2 could fit in this area.


How do you know? Have you seen the phase 2 plans ever ?

^^ where did you see the "design" for phase 2?

As a skyscraper fan i hope they will build 2 twin towers both over 400m infront of the Torch.

But in the long term this will only hurt Dubai. If the investors are unhappy they will stop to buy apartments in Dubai. The companies should keep there promises, deliver on time and in a decent quality.

It would be better if they build a small park there instead of some small skyscrapers..
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/vtalibaba/72f85dda.jpg

I explained in my earlier message that what emaar told me that in front of the torch will be phase 2. Their will be a PODIUM with several residential towers. i also have done some reasrch and found this info. just would like to say that the picture on emaar prospectus with a staggered building with a large podium is TRUE. Look at the following pics and think for yourself.

go to the following link for pictures of phase 2 and then look at the zoom up of emaar prospectus for the picture of the large podium. it looks very like it. Take a look see what you think, Ther picture of the emaar prospectus zoom up should be on the torch part 3 on page 23 or 24. then go to this look and look at the phase 2 pics.
take a look

http://www.talbotconsultants.com/projects/tc-dubai-m1.htm

also i doubt emaar will be building towrs higher then 40 floor, they are not in the business of building supertalls in the marina. No promises though but this is my opinion

The photos on that page look like phase 1 not phase 2 ?

http://www.talbotconsultants.com/projects/image/dubai_marina_night1.jpg

http://www.talbotconsultants.com/projects/image/dubai_marina_close1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v663/Upandhi/Dubai%20Marina/Emaarproject.jpg

The same site had this photo of Dubai Marina 'town cente' which I think is outdated.

http://www.talbotconsultants.com/projects/image/dubaimarinainterior.jpg

^^ where did you see the "design" for phase 2?

There were large drawrings posted on SSC a while ago [realy colourfull like the marina mall ones]

I did a google image search for them, the thumnails are there but not the actual images.

this search also throws up a model of 'dubai marina phase 2' which i cant open either.
2 buildings but less than 20 floors id say though. with a large pool in between!

its at www.tijanre.ae

^^ The "Phase 2" on that website are Al Majara Complex, already completed and far away from the Phase 1, on the other side of Marina.

ok, didnt think it would fit anyway...

i cant seem to access any uae hosted sites at the moment.

did you find the drawrings? or remember where they were posted?

http://i10.tinypic.com/2dlq7ar.jpg

http://i13.tinypic.com/33p3egy.jpg

http://i3.tinypic.com/3zj1g5k.jpg

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^^ thanks for the pic's mackie1964

Well progress coming along slowly it seems. Mackie have you spoken to the site manager for the Torch of when they're hoping the project comes off the ground ?

When I spoke to him onsite first week of December I was told Feb time and that 2 floors should be up every 10 days.

Many thanks for the pictures, seems a "fairly" busy site. Quite a lot of progress since I was there a few weeks back.

Nice to see the contractor providing saftey harness for the workers on the scafholdings. health and Saftey on a lot of other sites is appaling.

Anyone reckon this will be above ground by end of March.

Arfie,
You must have been there same time as me. I spoke with one of the engineers working on the site. I was told they would be above ground in 3 1/2- 4 months and then two floors every 8-10 days.
When you say off the ground in Feb do you mean starting the basement or showing above ground level?

Anjam

Arfie,
You must have been there same time as me. I spoke with one of the engineers working on the site. I was told they would be above ground in 3 1/2- 4 months and then two floors every 8-10 days.
When you say off the ground in Feb do you mean starting the basement or showing above ground level?

Anjam

Basement work to start in Feb but I believe should be above ground level by March time. He still seemed reasonably confident that the project will complete by the end of 2008.

The first floors, especially if underground, take way to long, sometime even more then 2 weeks for floor. Once it reaches a few floors above ground, (only) then the speed picks up.

ok, didnt think it would fit anyway...

i cant seem to access any uae hosted sites at the moment.

did you find the drawrings? or remember where they were posted?


i posted those drawings but they are daaaamn old and were created by someone from HOK who did the original masterplan.

Yeah, but it is still marina phase 2.

Do you know where they were?


Look at the 3rd picture. What the hell happened in the middle of the deepest hole! someone has been seriously mangeling!

You won't see this tower above the street until about May/June. Progress has not been good in my opinion and they are still messing around in the deep lift pit. This suggests to me that they don't have the information (revised design drawings)to really get going.

Why are they rendering from the top down? The bottom needs to be finished to tie the waterproofing on the base to the walls.

If the site people are DCE employees then the dates they are giving are for superstructure only and not the entire project.

I love the Exit sign at the timber stairs. If someone was to hide it, would they be stuck in the hole with no idea how to get out? :lol:

True Blue :- This was the project manager on site early December he mentioned the project should be above ground level around March time and with 2 floors every 10 days he anticipated completion will be in 2008 although we all know looking abit unrealistic now.

I had a walk around the Marina and DCE is every where including the Timeplace which I managed to clime up to the top and had access to all drawings / documents / schedules .....etc. The Project Manager was very accommodating and they managed to achieve a floor every 6 days (above ground, refer to my photos of the Timeplace). They have three areas for storage on Site and they also use the basement fot this much smaller building to achieve a floor every 6 days.

True Blue :- This was the project manager on site early December he mentioned the project should be above ground level around March time and with 2 floors every 10 days he anticipated completion will be in 2008 although we all know looking abit unrealistic now.

I already gave a light hearted answer to that statement in mid Dec 06 to which I received a nice reply from Naz. You should start beleiving the remarks that I and AltinD continue to provide free of charge. I have 25 years experience in construction and think I know what I'm talking about. I may never be right but I certainly won't be wrong either.

I am sure the project manager is giving you a frame complete (topped out) date. It will take a further 18 months or so to finish the building. On DS website they quote over 600 apartments to fit out and finish. That's a small town on surface construction! Having them all stacked one on top of the other does not make it any easier.

imo the earliest TT buyers can expect their keys is 4 qr of 2009 - and that is being optimistic

Thanks for your efforts mackie1964. Keep us posted.

4 month for basement, 10 days for the first 10 floors then one every 6-7 days, then extra 52 weeks for finishes , we are talking about 2 years from now
You won't see this tower above the street until about May/June. Progress has not been good in my opinion and they are still messing around in the deep lift pit. This suggests to me that they don't have the information (revised design drawings)to really get going.

Why are they rendering from the top down? The bottom needs to be finished to tie the waterproofing on the base to the walls.

If the site people are DCE employees then the dates they are giving are for superstructure only and not the entire project.

I love the Exit sign at the timber stairs. If someone was to hide it, would they be stuck in the hole with no idea how to get out? :lol:

^^ Check your sums!! Or do you mean 10 days for the first 10 floors (a floor a day)

Don't bother I'll help you;

4 months for the basement => 120days
10 days for 10 floors => 100days
70 floors at 6.5days => 455days
52 weeks internals and comissioning => 365days

TOTAL DURATION => 1040days = 2.85 YEARS

Rounded to 2 YEARS or Thereby (because thats what the punters want to hear)

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Thanks for the pic's mackie1964

Any recent pics of the Torch and Emaar sites?

BTW What does EMAAR mean/standfor?

^^ Emaar = development :rofl:

a few pics of the torch 'hole' and surrounding areas from my trip over christmas.

http://i18.tinypic.com/2wm0rqs.jpg
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I have been reading this thread over the past few months and am also buying an appartment. Many people here are also investors and the main concern is the plots infront of us by the marina.Do you think we have lost value in our appartments depending on what is built here or do you think what we have bought for was a fair price-what are the comparisons in this region.Prehaps some of you who have looked at other towers can help me. I know we were all told about the 18 floor buildings in front but come on! it was always a gamble! I was very interested in Dubai selects other development but have decided to wait and see-did anyone else purchase in Bay central or the Point and how are those buildings progressing?

View from marina crown that may be of interest to Torch owners (thanks to paul_g)

http://i3.tinypic.com/2uf3l7c.jpg

Is it just the angle of recent photos or does the TT "hole" indicate that TT's podium will be quite a bit smaller than that of MH ??

thanks duabi_steve. forgot to post that one here.

on the day i took the pics that blue perimeter was just being put up around the massive plot in front of the torch, im not sure what is going to be built there but one of the guys who i buy my property from suggested there was going to be a big shopping mall stretching from the road to the marina.

Is it just the angle of recent photos or does the TT "hole" indicate that TT's podium will be quite a bit smaller than that of MH ??

Width: The Torch is wider
Length: The MH is a very little bit longer.

Over all, the entire Torch podium is bigger in sqft Area.

any up to date aerial of the Emaar plot out front?

I heard tender is out for Emaar plot in front so surely someone knows a contractor in Dubai who can tell us about the plot layout and heights from the tender docs assuming they are not tied to confidentiality agreements with Emaar. Come on guys use your local contacts.

This is an email I got from Emaar Senior Sales representative this morning :-

"We have no set date yet, but I will notify you when there is more information. There are four high rise towers on the plot."

four high rises :bash:

I would presume 1 between TT and MH and the 3 in front. Got another email from the representative as I replied asking how tall these towers were going to be and she said the designs are not yet finalised so they don't know.

I would presume 1 between TT and MH and the 3 in front. Got another email from the representative as I replied asking how tall these towers were going to be and she said the designs are not yet finalised so they don't know.

Arfie,

Did they confirm if they were developing themselves or selling the plot.
If they are developing themselves then I think we could expect towers around the 40F mark. i.e. like Dubai Marina Phase I

Look guys this is all pure speculation again. How do we know there was really an e-mail from Emaar etc. ?? I wouldn't take anything seriously until we eventually get some firm evidence of what's going on here.

The email was from Hend M. Abdulrazak a senior emaar sales executive. Emaar are building themselves but no confirmation of size of towers yet as the designs have not yet been finalised. We could be looking at few months before we get anything official then.

I reckon we know the *max* heights of the towers from the info we got from guys doing the foundations ... now Emaar are probably working out what they can get away with.

If they want to build something in line with MH/TT they'll probably want to attach their podium onto those towers ... which will require negotiation. I am sure they'll be under pressure form TT/MH owners to not build anything huge ... I would expect compromises to be made.

^^ i would think Emaar can do what they want to be honest.. :(

The email was from Hend M. Abdulrazak a senior emaar sales executive. Emaar are building themselves but no confirmation of size of towers yet as the designs have not yet been finalised. We could be looking at few months before we get anything official then.


Thanks Arfie. Can you post a copy of the e-mail please ??

Thanks Arfie. Can you post a copy of the e-mail please ??

Guys,

I don't wish to sound 'arsey' or judgemental (as I have no desire to be a mod)but I'm not sure that posting this guy's name and contact details on a public forum like this is appropriate (unless of course he's given it the thumbs up himself).

Cheers

Guys,

I don't wish to sound 'arsey' or judgemental (as I have no desire to be a mod)but I'm not sure that posting this guy's name and contact details on a public forum like this is appropriate (unless of course he's given it the thumbs up himself).

Cheers

Well his name's already been posted by Arfie. I agree we would not want contact details disclosed, but it would be nice to see the content of the e-mail.

Well his name's already been posted by Arfie. I agree we would not want contact details disclosed, but it would be nice to see the content of the e-mail.

Morrismarina PM me your email address and I'll forward you the email.

Hey guys,

I'm going to Dubai in a couple of weeks and will get some pics of the site and of the plots in front.

I'm also trying to arrange a meeting with Emaar - so hopefully I can pick up some info on tower heights etc planned for the plots in front.

Cheers.

Any updates anyone? Is the Tower crane errected?

any news on emaar construction plot or torch construction???

Many Thanks Imre

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Whopeeee, we have a crane!

very slow progress on the torch construction mid 2008 completion is looking highly unlikely. are we going to pay another 25% in june, i dont want to, look how slow the construction is

If I compare the site to what I saw last month when I was on location, there is fair (not huge) progress. I think as this stage the work does appear painfully slow because we do not see any upwards movement. Once the site has been prepared and the basement begins we should see better progress.

once again, i wudnt expect this one to be compelted n handed over anytime before 2010.. having said that i like the neatness of the piles... shud rise this year along wit the rest on the tallest block.. exciting stuff

thanx for the updates guys.

This should rise first

edited by moderators: ads not allowed

^^^You are not allowed to advertise here Mr Real Estate Agent !

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Thanks Dubai_Steve, great angle. Where was it taken from? Looking at that picture it seems like the cheap(er) Media City view apartments may see as much water through the buildings as the marina facing/marina view aparments.

^^ This is the view from Marinascape thanks to dubaiflyer

I would have loved to go into Marinascape Dubai Steve, but that was impossible. The picture was actually taken from 2N tower.

Is 2N the shittest name for a tower this side of the Niagra Falls?

Just realised the height has definitely been increased since launch. Original brochure stated 74 floors in total and tower height of 345 metres. However DS website which likewise once stated 74 floors, is now telling us it's a total of 82 floors - an increase of 8 floors.
I had originally understood that six floors were removed from the top being 3 beds and replaced by six floors of 1 & 2 beds at the bottom. However I reckon the six floors have been added back in again at the top as highest 3 beds floor is 73rd (see floorplans on website).
But we have an additional 8 floors not 6 ??? Interestingly DS are now promoting Torch penthouses on main website. I reckon that they've increased the original single floor of penthouses to three - So new floors total, including podium etc. is now 82.
I've counted the floors on the new render from ground level and indeed there are now 82 floors.
So.....overall height of Torch will be well in excess of 345m metres now.

That, and as mentioned before, the actual final height is solely dependent upon the specifics of the "LED" (or equivalent) at the top. So definitely over 345m high.

Latest Torch updates courtesy of DS website:

https://mydubai.dubaiselect.com/media/img/torch/fullsize/2007-2-1%20Image-1.jpg

https://mydubai.dubaiselect.com/media/img/torch/fullsize/2007-2-1%20Image-2.jpg

https://mydubai.dubaiselect.com/media/img/torch/fullsize/2007-2-1%20Image-3.jpg

https://mydubai.dubaiselect.com/media/img/torch/fullsize/2007-2-1%20Image-4.jpg

https://mydubai.dubaiselect.com/media/img/torch/fullsize/2007-2-1%20Image-5.jpg

https://mydubai.dubaiselect.com/media/img/torch/fullsize/2007-2-1%20Image-7.jpg

https://mydubai.dubaiselect.com/media/img/torch/fullsize/2007-2-1%20Image-8.jpg

https://mydubai.dubaiselect.com/media/img/torch/fullsize/2007-2-1%20Image-9.jpg

https://mydubai.dubaiselect.com/media/img/torch/fullsize/2007-2-1%20Image-12.jpg

great pics...but what the black part in the whole?

i guess it is some sort of waterproofing?

^^ That's what it is, but a little bit better than waterproofing called tanking. It will allow the structure to resist water under pressure and keep dampness out of the basement.

Where is all the workforce? Meal break possibly.

Don't think the progress in the lift pit is impressive, looks like they haven't decided quite what to do with it. Maybe the lift manufacturer has not been appointed and therefore can't resolve the design requirements to accomodate the equipment.

True Blue

There is two guys on site......... they are having a rest

look at the fifth picture

They're def. taking their time - waterproofing could be done in days if they were flat out and had the people.

They're def. taking their time - waterproofing could be done in days if they were flat out and had the people.

You would think that paying for crane hire would motivate them to get moving.

02.02.2007

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http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/2662/photo023ec1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

^^ That's what it is, but a little bit better than waterproofing called tanking. It will allow the structure to resist water under pressure and keep dampness out of the basement.

Where is all the workforce? Meal break possibly.

Don't think the progress in the lift pit is impressive, looks like they haven't decided quite what to do with it. Maybe the lift manufacturer has not been appointed and therefore can't resolve the design requirements to accomodate the equipment.

@ True Blue;

What do you think they are waiting for, there is a lot of work that could be done while they are doing this, I think it is more than the lift, I think it could be changes to the foundation design in a larger scale or may be the main contract is not finalized/agreed.

By the way, doesn't tanking chemicals (which is not black)gets mixed into the materials for the previous process which is nearly completed (here in the UK at least), Is this not just a further water resisting coat?

with the 3rd instalment coming up in march, i am quite sure DS will want to show investors progress on site.
we should be able to see something happening within the next 4 weeks.

Mackie, The render just provides a smooth surface for the tanking to be applied to. I think you mean chemicals which help with water resistance/ absorption.

Anything I say regarding the lack of real progress is just speculation, the only ones who know are DS. One thing is for sure, its just not happening!

Thanks to ColinH

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the site looks busier in every pic... looking forward to whatever emaar has in store for us..

DS have officially changed the completion date to December 2008 now. They are sending all buyers letters informing then this. I still said to them December 2008 is just to optimistic. They claim they have employed more labour workers who will be working 24 hrs a day. Once the building start 2 floors to go up every week and the interior work will start once the first 15 floors are up.

Still no chance of Dec 2008 I say.

^^ This has come to offer reassurance to the investors who are due to make another payment. Tell them anything to deprive them of their cash. Have any of their other promises come true?

I would refer them back to their previous promises of "visible above ground in the new year" and pay them when it is visible above ground. After all they can't have any other expense other than the chairmans fat salary.

DS are treating their investors as if they have no intelligence. December 08 is an insult.

with the 3rd instalment coming up in march, i am quite sure DS will want to show investors progress on site.
we should be able to see something happening within the next 4 weeks.

talking about something happening in the next 4 weeks..
this is not the kind of news i hoped for. :nono:

LOL; Damac, Nakheel, Wind, Dubai select...

seems like nobody is happy with their developers of late!

On the positive side; the hole is starting to look quite nice with the water-proofing though :D

I don,t think investors should worry about the delay. From my own dealings with dubaiselect I felt that they were genuine and reputable company, they immediatley refunded my deposit after I decided not to buy in the Torch when it was first launched. Not many developers will do that.

Anything later that Dec 2008 and you will get compensation for late delivery anyway which will take the burden off from making your payments.

Whilst the delay is within the terms and conditions set out in your contract, we appreciate that this is disappointing news and so have been working with our construction partner DCE to agree on an acceleration plan which should reduce the remaining construction time. This programme has now been finalised and within the coming weeks you will see the following activity:


Additional labour force starts on site


A 24 hour-a-day construction programme begins


Above-ground construction, with a target of 2 floors per week


Simultaneous apartment finishing from ground up once floor 15 is reached


With this new course of action in place we remain confident that The Torch will still be one of the first super towers to be completed in this district of the marina.

^^ This has come to offer reassurance to the investors who are due to make another payment. Tell them anything to deprive them of their cash. Have any of their other promises come true?

I would refer them back to their previous promises of "visible above ground in the new year" and pay them when it is visible above ground. After all they can't have any other expense other than the chairmans fat salary.

DS are treating their investors as if they have no intelligence. December 08 is an insult.

Harsh words indeed......isn't this somewhat OTT ??? A tower being delayed is no big issue, 99% of them are in Dubai. Even your beloved Infinity tower has been delayed. At least DS pay compensation of LIBOR + 1% after 6 months delay (ie. past Dec'08) I'd be surprised if Cayan have put any compensation in their contracts ??

How can any of you possible think completion in 08 or even 09. Compare it to the progress on the point/size differential. You gotta be looking at 2010

Additional labour force starts on site


A 24 hour-a-day construction programme begins


Above-ground construction, with a target of 2 floors per week


Simultaneous apartment finishing from ground up once floor 15 is reached




1] IS sensible
2]This is impossible for the summer months of the year.
3]Great
4]This never works... Just look at Damac...

At least DS pay compensation of LIBOR + 1% after 6 months delay (ie. past Dec'08) I'd be surprised if Cayan have put any compensation in their contracts ??

Morris;

I wouldn't rely on this, the ground / foundation is being laid down above for a Force Majeure event. The letter is cleverly written and you should look out for key words like:

"This unforeseen decision is a result of delays in receiving mandatory construction permits"

"The delay is within the terms and conditions set out in your contract"

"Acceleration plan"

If you look at the definition of Force Majeure in this specific contract and in particular the last statement that refer to "and/or any event allowing the contractor carrying out the development works....."

I hope that you are right but I can see it coming and this is just my own opinion.

Force Majeure is defined as follows in Torch contracts:


"..........

and/or any event allowing the contractor carrying out the development works an extension of time under the relevant building contract(s)"



Does this last point cover them for the reason of delay given as "delays in receiving mandatory construction permits from the Master Developer of Dubai Marina, a process which took far longer than expected" ? I imagine that it does.

I also noted that DS called all investors today to document that they are happy with the reason given.

Dubai Steve,

"and/or any event allowing the contractor carrying out the development works an extension of time under the relevant building contract(s)"


^^ This covers absolutely everything that changes from the original tendered drawings and documents. All that DS need to do is grant an extension of time to the contractor and they have just relieved themselves of any responsibility for the delays.

You have no chance of recovering compensation with this clause in the contract. One thing is for sure this is an abuse of the force majeure clause.

Extension of time clause is included to protect the contractor from liquidated and acertained damages (L&A Damages) should his works suffer delay by reason of variation of the works or additions not reasonably foreseeable, outwith his control and not allowed for within his tender.

On another point, 2 floors a week! Not likely but they have set a benchmark by which to be judged. Although they could just grant the contractor an extension of time and exonerate themselves.

So why should I care or have an opinion. Simply this, I am a construction professional and a Member of the Institution of Civil Engineers. I hate to see people not follow a code of conduct and act unethically with investors trust.

Morrismarina, you are correct, there is no comp clause in Cayan contracts, however they do have a 6 months delay exit clause. You can get a full refund if the contract slips by 6 months. Good enough for me! Better than the carrot and donkey compensation clause. From memory, I don't think the donkey ever gets the carrot.

I agree with you TrueBlue, this seems to be an abuse of the force majeure clause.

I also noted that DS called all investors today to document that they are happy with the reason given.

All of their investors?
Does this last point cover them for the reason of delay given as "delays in receiving mandatory construction permits from the Master Developer of Dubai Marina, a process which took far longer than expected" ? I imagine that it does.

In my opinion, it is very hard for them if it was here or in the States to prove but I am not sure about Dubai, that is what I am trying to find out at present.

I have since spoken to DS and they promised to clarify the Force Majeure Issue shortly.

All of their investors?


In my opinion, it is very hard for them if it was here or in the States to prove but I am not sure about Dubai, that is what I am trying to find out at present.

I have since spoken to DS and they promised to clarify the Force Majeure Issue shortly.


Does anyone know exactly when it was that the permit was actually granted, and when it was expected originally?

I've noticed a clause 15.3 which allows Dubai Select to terminate the contract in June 2009 if the building is not completed, with no compensation.

In fact it appears that 15.3 says that in June 2009 if the Torch is not completed Dubai Select (which does not really exist as a company any more, it is now Select Property or something like that) can terminate the contract, keeping all monies paid to date. How cheerful is that.

but it does not say that the buyer forfeits all rights to any moneies paid in that case of termination of contract only that no compensation can be claimed.

Contract is with Torch Select and Select Group, not Dubai Select.

but it does not say that the buyer forfeits all rights to any moneies paid in that case of termination of contract only that no compensation can be claimed.

Contract is with Torch Select and Select Group, not Dubai Select.

Although I decided not to buy in the Torch for my own reasons, my experience with dubai select was good.I am just beginging to wonder as to why they keep changing the name of the company, from Dubai select to Torch Select, Select group and Property select. If the contract is with say Torch Select and things go wrong, who do you go to?

Although I decided not to buy in the Torch for my own reasons, my experience with dubai select was good.I am just beginging to wonder as to why they keep changing the name of the company, from Dubai select to Torch Select, Select group and Property select. If the contract is with say Torch Select and things go wrong, who do you go to?

I'm not sure there have been that many changes. The inital set-up was to have an overall sales company called Dubai Select with each development having it's own company set-up to handle contracts etc i.e. Torch Select, Point Select. There was no change from Dubai Select to Torch Select.

The mgt have since launched developments in other countries and are no longer exclusive to Dubai - hence the change in structure and name to Select Group / Property Select.

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Quick explanations welcome :)

They've been faffing around with the foundations for months now :(

hey true blue
as a experienced contractor, how long do you reckon it would take before a clause which protects investors from time delay kick in?
by the way,can you raise the issue somehow with the media like gulf news?

Dubai Steve,

"and/or any event allowing the contractor carrying out the development works an extension of time under the relevant building contract(s)"


^^ This covers absolutely everything that changes from the original tendered drawings and documents. All that DS need to do is grant an extension of time to the contractor and they have just relieved themselves of any responsibility for the delays.

You have no chance of recovering compensation with this clause in the contract. One thing is for sure this is an abuse of the force majeure clause.

Extension of time clause is included to protect the contractor from liquidated and acertained damages (L&A Damages) should his works suffer delay by reason of variation of the works or additions not reasonably foreseeable, outwith his control and not allowed for within his tender.

On another point, 2 floors a week! Not likely but they have set a benchmark by which to be judged. Although they could just grant the contractor an extension of time and exonerate themselves.

So why should I care or have an opinion. Simply this, I am a construction professional and a Member of the Institution of Civil Engineers. I hate to see people not follow a code of conduct and act unethically with investors trust.

Morrismarina, you are correct, there is no comp clause in Cayan contracts, however they do have a 6 months delay exit clause. You can get a full refund if the contract slips by 6 months. Good enough for me! Better than the carrot and donkey compensation clause. From memory, I don't think the donkey ever gets the carrot.

Quick explanations welcome :)

You can find too much on the net about tanking a cellar, basement or other underground earth retaining structure.

Some of the best documents would be The British standards, if I remember correctly they were BS8102 & 13967. True Blue would know if there are more recent standards. Other than that Tractor sums it up beautifully above.


You have no chance of recovering compensation with this clause in the contract. One thing is for sure this is an abuse of the force majeure clause.

Extension of time clause is included to protect the contractor from liquidated and acertained damages (L&A Damages) should his works suffer delay by reason of variation of the works or additions not reasonably foreseeable, outwith his control and not allowed for within his tender.

On another point, 2 floors a week! Not likely but they have set a benchmark by which to be judged. Although they could just grant the contractor an extension of time and exonerate themselves.

I agree with most of what you had to say but not the one about having no chance for recovering compensation, I have dealt with some Force Majeure claims before on projects that I have managed and there is every chance. Despite the way the contract is written, there are areas in the contract where you can drive a bus through in my opinion along others, I will keep these to myself for now and hopefully there will be no need to contest this.

I have spoken to DS or SG as they are now known and asked them to clarify some points. Despite the positive attitude to start with, they came back the following day with no answers other than the delay is in line with what is in the contract, so you draw your own conclusion from this.

They also told us that they were very confident of meeting the new completion date. I made the same comments to them as I made when they told me the same back in September about how confident they were of making the previous date.

I can’t see the two floors per week working and I look forward to them proving me wrong. You can employ additional labour force only to a degree where it does not become a hinder rather than a help, you have several months of very high temp, where the productivity is undermined and you are surrounded by other developments that use the same resources and networks. Then you have the issue of speed v quality….!

I'd rather them take their time and at least have the work done properly. They're progressing well IMO. With every photo posted here, you can see they've moved further with the work.
This tower is going to be almost the height of the Empire State building and these things don't get built over night. What we don't want is too much haste and a botched job......just look at poor old Infinity and what's happened there.

Thin layer of concrete being placed over the tanking membrane.

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/2861/imgp0513ur7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/173/imgp0512ma2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

amazing how fast it's going on at the site

^^ r u joking..? but it seems they are moving on now.

Dont worry, he's german ...EVERYTHING is exciting!

^^Hey man, now you are surrounded from 3 GERMAN!!!!!!!

Hey, its a little toooo early to lay your towels down for sunbathing yet :D

Many thanks for the pics True Blue. :) .......razor sharp, you must have a very good camera & lens ??

Agree nice photos, thanks!

He used this camera:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/Pentax750Z/Images/specsview.jpg

it is not about the camera, it is about the skills and the lightning :D and about not destroying his camera :bash: so pissed how could this happen :bash: :bash:

^^ r u joking..? but it seems they are moving on now.

bad progress? December 15th - February 07
http://i16.tinypic.com/2py3nrd.jpg

^^This always takes time!!

16.02.2007

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/5391/photo114rr8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/1537/photo115et2.th.jpg (http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo115et2.jpg)http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/4007/photo116am0.th.jpg (http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo116am0.jpg)http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/4773/photo117gt7.th.jpg (http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo117gt7.jpg)http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/5662/photo118jx6.th.jpg (http://img77.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo118jx6.jpg)

^^ Finally some noticable progress in the Lift pit. Looks like tanking is complete and they have applied a thin layer of concrete on top to cover it.

Yes not too much to do now before the basement floors can be built :) I think this will be the 1st super tall to be completed

yes, i also think it'll start to rise soon

23.02.2007

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/6907/photo092rr9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/7470/photo093pv1.th.jpg (http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo093pv1.jpg)http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/701/photo094tp4.th.jpg (http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo094tp4.jpg)http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/8939/photo095ao2.th.jpg (http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo095ao2.jpg)http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/8334/photo096sn1.th.jpg (http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo096sn1.jpg)http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/3930/photo102gw0.th.jpg (http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo102gw0.jpg)

What is that on the basment walls? Can't quite figure it out. Is it a steel mesh or somthing else?

Seeing the adventures of their near neighbours, I am glad to see some sturdy work here...

anybody know how easy it is for a UK resident and UK passport holder to open a bank account in Dubai to use for paying local bills etc ?

^^ You need local residency to open a bank account with local banks.

^^ You need local residency to open a bank account with local banks.

Not strictly true.

I managed to open an account with Barclays Dubai and am not Dubai resident.

The process will be easier if you go with a bank you already have or have had a relationship with.

Have a look at the investment thread:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=438574&page=8

We've been discussing opening bank accounts on there today.

WOOOW SO DEEEP!!!!!

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/7302/photo084xu1.jpg

the more i look at the new render, the more i feel that the design will look outdated in 5 to 10years max.

I agree, I am still not happy with the new design. I hope the tower turns out better than the render when all the blue glass is added and the torch is lit. Will the cladding be silver ? If so then it could look pretty good / futuristic.

Does anyone have any photos of the latest model. Would like to see them. I think the model looks better than the render.

http://i17.tinypic.com/4cusnjp.jpg

http://i10.tinypic.com/46zbq0p.jpg

http://i7.tinypic.com/2m84or9.jpg

Is there an indoor pool also or has the one main pool to be shared with all 650+ apartments?

Pool does seem a bit small for 650 apartments !

I think it has been redesigned since and is kidney shaped now ?

i wouldn't worry too much about that pool..

anyway, this might looks somewhat similar to No1 Dubai Marina in the end.

http://i4.tinypic.com/2mn4vae.jpg

^^ that's 1 big base

Ya is massive!

Have you heard investors the plot in front of he torch has been SOLD by emaar. Emaar are still working on he site but the new purchaser has build anyhing he wants on this site. Still we have had no news from DS regarding this site. Wha do you think investors?

^^ We have a thread for that unknown project where you should redirect your question to.. this thread is meant to discuss the Torch ONLY.

Is there an indoor pool also or has the one main pool to be shared with all 650+ apartments?

I think there was originally going to be an indoor pool but that was taken out when they added the additional residential floors. Personally I think this is a backward step given how hot it can be in the summer plus the risk of sandstorms.

^^ You don't have to worry about sandstorms. The EMAAR Phases 1 and 2 will have a very good shieldding effect. :runaway:

That's the first I heard about the indoor pool being removed ?

The contract specifies that the swimming pool decks will have washable emulsion paint on the ceilings. If there is no ceiling on the swimming pool then this will be a breach of contract.

Will there still be a spa or sauna etc. ?

I have not heard of the indoor swiming pool being removed either.

I have not heard of the indoor swiming pool being removed either.

So maybe there are both indoor and outdoor pools? Have they added the indoor one recently or was it meant to be there from the start?

So maybe there are both indoor and outdoor pools? Have they added the indoor one recently or was it meant to be there from the start?

meant to be there from the start

09.03.2007

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9852/photo087ev6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/5410/photo088jq0.th.jpg (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo088jq0.jpg)http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/6307/photo089tr5.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo089tr5.jpg)http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6012/photo090or4.th.jpg (http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo090or4.jpg)http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4125/photo091pt8.th.jpg (http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo091pt8.jpg)

Good steady progress IMHO, should start rising in a month or so.

What happens now, what are those bars for?

What happens now, what are those bars for?

Meeting hot chicks and having a great time........

the site is looking great.. hopefully a lot more activity by summer time

Meeting hot chicks and having a great time........

Nice one Charlie,:lol:

Right i'm on the next plane...:cheers:

See you there !

Indoor pool!???

who the hell buys in Dubai and then wants an indoor pool?

next people will be buying ski chalets and complaining about the Snow!


It is a verry nice hole BTW, heres hoping it disapears pretty soon though :)

^^ Marinascape has one also.

Yes the hole is very nice. Should win the best hole of the year award :D

With the lifetime achievement award for best hole going to the Lighthouse.

Indoor pool!???

who the hell buys in Dubai and then wants an indoor pool?

next people will be buying ski chalets and complaining about the Snow!


It is a verry nice hole BTW, heres hoping it disapears pretty soon though :)

I'm pleased there's an indoor pool. Not everyone wants to be constantly under the sun.

Offers a good alternative for those who find the summer months a bit too hot to handle.

^^ The outdoor pool will be shadowed by the other towers most of times, and in Dubai if you are in the shadow AND near the sea, it will never be problem, even if it is 45+.

Been speaking to DS today and they have confirmed there will only be an outside pool. :cry:

^^ The only outdoor swimming pool I know with washable emulsion paint on the ceilings then ! as per contract

Does it have sauna, spa or any other facilities ?

They should turn one of the penthouses which they can't sell into a luxury spa centre as compensation for loss of views and removed indoor pool.

I didn't ask about the other stuff but the sales brochure I received stated there would be "temperature controlled swimming pools". I guess they can get away with this by having an adult's and children's pool.
Brochure also says there will be sauna, steam room & spa. Also a gym.

On this size of tower I'm expecting seperate male and female sauna and steam rooms. Remember there are 650 or so dwellings in this tower, thats the equivalent of a small town.

The majority of these apartments will be let on holiday rentals so most of the families there will want to use the pool at the same time. I hope it is not tooo small.

One year ago 11.03.2006

http://i14.tinypic.com/30a9ylz.jpg

09.03.2007

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9852/photo087ev6.jpg

You reminded me of seeing ZUBLIN currently having another LOOOOOOOONG Tea Brake on a construction site in Al Barsha. :D

This progress is not that bad. Maybe at 11.03.2008 it is above ground :D:D:D:D :lol:

At least DS are putting the swimming pool in after they've built the tower unlike one of TT's neighbours who've put the pool in first :lol:

This progress is not that bad. Maybe at 11.03.2008 it is above ground :D:D:D:D :lol:

I'm sure about that ;)

At least DS are putting the swimming pool in after they've built the tower unlike one of TT's neighbours who've put the pool in first :lol:

Don't mock, water features are in vogue right now!! :lol:

I don't know why Cayan never had the foresight to host the Dubai Boat Show at the Infinity site. An opportunity squandered. :)

Come on guys! Don't mock. Any number of close by towers could have had their bonfire's pissed on.

Anybody know if the lifts in TT will be able to travel from ground to top (84th) floor in one take, or will there have to be a changeover point half way ??

Just back from a few nights in the Grosvenor House. The Torch shuts down real early while the huge site in front of the Habtoor is flat out with 50 plus working all night. TT needs a big influx of labour soon or min 2010.

Perhaps they've slowed up awaiting delivery of concrete to commence to start pouring in for the slab as they must be close to this stage now.

DS say the Torch should be above ground Mid this year. Pretty dissapointed because the manager on site in December told me March/April time it should be above ground.

How many coming weeks do we have to wait until the 24hr plan starts? :rant:

"This programme has now been finalised and within the coming weeks you will see the following activity:

Additional labour force starts on site
A 24 hour-a-day construction programme begins
Above-ground construction, with a target of 2 floors per week
Simultaneous apartment finishing from ground up once floor 15 is reached "

:soon:

I passed the site one evening mid February and all the labour were sitting on the street waiting for their bus when all the surrounding towers were still working. The thought did come to mind, DS say one thing, do another.

Reality is that the summer heat will be upon us soon and progress will be affected by the heat. Will we see this above ground this year? At this rate, NO.

And according to DS only 85 weeks till we get the keys. Believe that when I see it. :bash:

^^ They may stick to their word and give you "the keys". :lol::rofl:

dear Investors

I must conclude DS have been falsifying their informaion which they have been providing. Where is he so called increase labour force in he site? Also i would like to ask has anyone contacted DS regarding their broken promises?

http://i3.tinypic.com/2w4go6r.jpg

http://i7.tinypic.com/29m4qkx.jpg

http://i10.tinypic.com/3zrkz6x.jpg

http://i5.tinypic.com/2zeh7bq.jpg