Hi,
They are NOT working throughout the night. Yesterday they stop at around 1:30am. The "central square" has no people, so I guess the work are relatively minor compared to the daytime.
Few days back, they did some concete pouring on the right hand side area during night time.
I am not sure whether night-time work is a constant practice for them or not.
And no one works here on Friday.

Rgds.

Many thanks.

What do they eat for lunch ??

You just can't help yourself, can you morris? Your friends/family/work coleagues from Dubai select are telling me lies again, up to 300 people on average reduced to 100 through the night, 24 hrs working I was told.

Of course they're lying, if people knew this was going to be 18months late they might stop paying their installments and demanding refunds!

I eat my hat if the Torch is ready before January 2010 :nuts:

^^ Why say January 2010 rather than end of 2009? Is it because 01/01/2010 sounds further away than 31/12/09?


I hope you have a straw hat somewhere.

I thought DS were saying 2008?!?

Official date is now 31 Dec 2008 (6 months behind schedule of original date June 08)

Compensation payments start 1 Jan 2009 if late

^^ No way.

^^ 80 floors at 2 floors every 10 days = 400 days, about 14 months only

Official stance is December 2008. Word "On The Ground" is mid 2009 at the latest.

Dec 08 seems possible for topping out and cladding completed. But I think it will be mid 09 before it is ok to move in and probably end of 09 before renting out as holiday home is possible because of on going construction works for communal areas etc. as was the case for the marina heights.

^^ Topping out MINUS the Torch on top MINUS all of the cladding.

No way. this should be done easily by end 08. 4 or 5 months for the roof feature is enough. Cladding and apartment finishing can be done during floor construction after a certain height unlike Burj Dubai :)

^^ Topping out MINUS the Torch on top MINUS all of the cladding.

MINUS the interior work

DS said interiors will be done simultaneously with construction.

Current Over All Progress Estimate is around 15% and to achieve any where near the End of 08 it should be around 30 to 35%. :ohno:

Better get that web cam setup so we can store evidence against any force majeure claims then when we go to ask for compensation :D

I am all up for it:) Just need one of our neighbours to co-operate! Considering some of them "Hate (the) Torch" so much we may be out of luck :D

Even if DS do a great job on project management, there WILL be delays due to getting supplies late, etc.. MH was 12+ months late and still has some things to finish off..

Emirates Crown is also a good example of how a tower goes really fast and then seems to nearly stop when it gets to the roof structure. That seems to have a simpler design (i.e. floor plan identical for almost all the tower).

Will be great if you get compensation however I have a feeling you won't unless Dubai passes a law making it obligatory. Hope I am wrong for your sakes! I've yet to hear of someone getting payments for late delivery of a project!

I thought the compensation is only in refunding what you have paid and giveing back your apartment. Surely having waited 4-5 years that would be the last thing you want to do near the end...

Of course they're lying, if people knew this was going to be 18months late they might stop paying their installments and demanding refunds!

I think we all know now this is going to be about 12 months late (nothing unusual for Dubai) but why would anybody want to stop their instalments and demand a refund ?? I paid AED 752,000 for my one bed in TT - similar one bed in Marina Heights (slightly smaller but same floor & views) advertised last week for AED 1.34m . I'm very happy thank you very much !!

Anybody who bought in TT is going to make a tidy profit here:

http://i5.tinypic.com/5xe85rd.jpg

Hopefully, but you'll be competing with JBR, Mag, Pinnacle, Emirates Crown ... think the marina market is going to be flat for quite a while now.

^^ Agree Tractor, and the adverts are for completed apartments. Very difficult to resell an off plan that is at the Torch stage of construction.

From Dubai Property Centre Website;

Dubai Marina Apartment (Project Torch Tower) Type DM-2B

2 Bedrooms - 1,590 sq ft (148 m sq)

Sea and Media City view
Asking Price
AED 1,223,743
USD $ 333,200
GBP £ 189,901

Ref: WDPC/04-3477

^^ Thats only 770AED/ft2 but will rise only when the tower does.

Better get that web cam setup so we can store evidence against any force majeure claims then when we go to ask for compensation :D

You don't need a web-cam for that, keeping a diary of events, photos, any press coverage and any emails/conversations/promises should be adequate. It has to be an accurate diary (as much as possible). They can't use the shortage of material as basis for a claim, it would be rejected easily due to reasons I would rather keep to my self for now. You don't need the type of Tea that the workers are drinking but numbers would be required to proof that adequate planning / efforts to meet the contract dates were not in place.

^^ It is worth the effort because a 12 month delay will cost me almost AED 100,000

^^ It is worth the effort because a 12 month delay will cost me almost AED 100,000

yes, thats a concern. i'm in the frustrating position where i've paid 90% to date, with no end in (near) sight. at the point where i signed to contract, i was told it would finish end of 2007, somewhat different from the reality.

Mackie - i think its worth keeping logs of everything, although i cant help but think that the contract is so (carefully) ill-defined in respect of the specific clause, it would be difficult to enact. have you sought advice / do you know something we don't?

13-May-2007, 0935hrs, GMT+4.

I have increased the resolution this time round.

If it is slow let me know.
In that case, I will use link instead.

http://i2.tinypic.com/6289hkx.jpg

^^ great picture, no problems with its size overhere.
It looks like they're almost done with the columns.

yes, thats a concern. i'm in the frustrating position where i've paid 90% to date, with no end in (near) sight. at the point where i signed to contract, i was told it would finish end of 2007, somewhat different from the reality.

Mackie - i think its worth keeping logs of everything, although i cant help but think that the contract is so (carefully) ill-defined in respect of the specific clause, it would be difficult to enact. have you sought advice / do you know something we don't?

What's the completion date actually quoted in your contract ??

Don't agree with you Tractor when the Marina is finished believe me, demand will be even greater than it is now, selling my apartment at around AED 1.5m (and doubling my initial investment) will be no problem.

Morris, you should listen to sensible investors like Dubai_Steve who seems to know his stuff. Delays cost money - loss of rental income and/or more interest payments. Demand may be higher in 2+ years time, but it is by no means guaranteed ... I don't tend to believe hearsay on these things so no, I won't believe you, I'd rather see evidence.

Have you factored into your calculations of 'doubling' your investment the interest payments or cost of capital (i.e. what you would have earned if the money was in the bank earning interest or invested in the equity markets)?

As far as I can tell, prices seem to have already stalled on the Marina - very different from 2 years ago.

The marina won't be finished when the Torch is - in fact the plot in front and between MH and TT will probably be in full swing in terms of construction.

PS I think it is disgusting that someone who was told completion would be end 2007 has paid 90% and not had their payment plan extended somehow. Sounds a bit like Damac/WIND!!

Assuming capital growth of 10% compounded for 7 years, yes it is possible to double your investment. Tractor is right though, 90% paid out with no rental income and costs mounting then the difficulty of exiting when the delays become apparent, does not make it a good proposition. He would have been better off investing in the UK market on a new build flat with property increasing at 11.8%pa (HBOS figures) and rental of 4.5% return on investment.

Back on topic though, anyone fancy a challenge on closest the handover date?

Put me down for a revised estimate of March 2011.

Back on topic though, anyone fancy a challenge on closest the handover date?

Put me down for a revised estimate of March 2011.

March/April 2010 but I reserve the right to revise based on the next 4-6 months performance.

How do you get to 2011, I did a quick shadow programme and unless they are really incompetent, which I think they are not, it should be easily achievable within 1st qtr of 2010.

What's the completion date actually quoted in your contract ??

no, as i stated, i was told it was scheduled to complete end of 2007. When the contract came through and indicated 6 months later, i questioned the date, where i was told they had put the deadline back as a 'satefy measure' to ensure the timing was accurate.

just as a side point, i'm not banking on the profit being as good as you say, MorrisMarina, particularly, when, as been pointed out, you consider the cost of capital, the opportunity cost of capital and factoring in the increase supply of housing that will be available around 2009-2010.

Of course, delays are inevitable, and i can see that progress is being made, but until this progress is plotted against a timeline with critial milestones highlighted, its impossible to get an accurate timeframe.

Mackie,

650+ apartments and extensive M+E installation, the structure is not going to be on the critical path as long as it does not take more than 2 weeks per floor. It is the critical activity at the moment as its basically holding everything else up.

Emirates marina serviced apts was topped out around Feb 06 and is expected to handover Sept 07. That will be 18 months after the structure and its only 59 floors. So do a program for the structure and add 2 years for the internals, that's a reasonable assumption.

Also, I'm not convinced by DCE. All the Emaar projects they are working on are way behind, especially when you compare to the Emaar project that was carried out by NASA Multiplex, Marina Promenade. Their bid may be so cheap that Emaar and DS are happy to let them fumble around.

I started off with 2010 but using the feedback from this forum, like the employee who told a forumer recently that the structure would be above street level by April 07, makes me think that DCE are not in control as much as they have led DS to beleive. DS have issued a statement late last year that the project would be above the ground "early in the new year".

So on the basis of the above and armed with the fact that everthing takes twice as long as DS estimates, March 2011 for me.

I do have over 2 years for all the internals including installing and commissioning the M&E installation but starting Dec07/Jan08, which is a reasonable assumption, I know it is Dubai and that is why I based it on worse case but still can't see it going into 2011 at present!

If we all agreed and chose the same date, it would take all the skill and judgement out and not be fun anymore. :)

Given that everyone is in agreement that its near impossiible for the project to be completed mid 2008 (even MorrisMarina i dare say), i wonder how long it will take for DS to confirm this? i'd hate to think it has to get so painfully obvious before they come clean on the timing...

I am more optimistic, my guess is still Dec 09 - so one year delay on latest date from DS. If delays go into 2011 then Dubai Select are looking at $30 million total in compensation payouts as per contract for late delivery.

I am more optimistic, my guess is still Dec 09 - so one year delay on latest date from DS. If delays go into 2011 then Dubai Select are looking at $30 million total in compensation payouts as per contract for late delivery.

If you leave it right to the end, they will walk away paying nothing, they will just give you your money back as per the contract.:)

The correct action at the right time is the key here! Just keep the photos, counting the workers and keep building up a file, there is a very high possibility that you will need it.

Mackie,

650+ apartments and extensive M+E installation, the structure is not going to be on the critical path as long as it does not take more than 2 weeks per floor. It is the critical activity at the moment as its basically holding everything else up.

Emirates marina serviced apts was topped out around Feb 06 and is expected to handover Sept 07. That will be 18 months after the structure and its only 59 floors. So do a program for the structure and add 2 years for the internals, that's a reasonable assumption.

Also, I'm not convinced by DCE. All the Emaar projects they are working on are way behind, especially when you compare to the Emaar project that was carried out by NASA Multiplex, Marina Promenade. Their bid may be so cheap that Emaar and DS are happy to let them fumble around.

I started off with 2010 but using the feedback from this forum, like the employee who told a forumer recently that the structure would be above street level by April 07, makes me think that DCE are not in control as much as they have led DS to beleive. DS have issued a statement late last year that the project would be above the ground "early in the new year".

So on the basis of the above and armed with the fact that everthing takes twice as long as DS estimates, March 2011 for me.


Yes , agree , earliest handover date is 2011.

Yes , agree , earliest handover date is 2011.

This has 2011 all over it. Thank god for the valued comments by the likes of True Blue and Imre. Anyone who thinks that they will get their appt in 08 09 or even 10 are on another planet.

On an investment note, looking at the sq ft price rises over the past 2 years in Dubai you would all of earnt more dough investing in London. We are currently getting £1400 to £1600 per sq ft in Hampstead and £2000 per sq ft in Regents Park a rise of 31% in 14 months, but this is about towers and not reddies yeah.

I'd go with 2010

I go for second or third quarter 2010.

This has 2011 all over it. Thank god for the valued comments by the likes of True Blue and Imre. Anyone who thinks that they will get their appt in 08 09 or even 10 are on another planet.


Would you like to explain to us, how you arrived at this? Even Trublue can be wrong, he estimated three months delay on infinity :)

Technical knowledge is one thing, crystal ball requires all together different set of skills :) :)

This is all getting very boring........

:blahblah::blahblah::blahblah::blahblah::blahblah::blahblah:

^^ true, back to the construction...
small question. In the pictures you see a lot of red painted steel in the core of the building. will it be structural and if so why is it painted in such a 'happy' color?

^^ Its falsework or staging for the soffit deck.

This is all getting very boring........

:blahblah::blahblah::blahblah::blahblah::blahblah::blahblah:

I don't know about that. A lot of participation from other forumers on the subject. Anyway your last post was about how much profit you are expecting from the sale of your Torch apt. People in glass houses and all that!

He is like that every time people point out some truth, never mind.

Here is some photos to give you an idea to how the internals could look like!

http://i10.tinypic.com/66lp25w.jpg

http://i10.tinypic.com/4lqhkjb.jpg

http://i9.tinypic.com/4r8josg.jpg

http://i10.tinypic.com/4vsj5ar.jpg

http://i2.tinypic.com/4xmp3jr.jpg

http://i5.tinypic.com/63uaes7.jpg

http://i3.tinypic.com/61ya0rb.jpg

http://i10.tinypic.com/66ytguc.jpg

http://i8.tinypic.com/5zh4ghs.jpg

http://i7.tinypic.com/502qgc7.jpg

http://i4.tinypic.com/62nu2bt.jpg

I think it's misleading to use the (lack of) capital appreciation on unfinished apartments as a yardstick of what will happen once The Torch is completed. Provided the population influx at least keeps pace with the number of new-build properties delivered between now and completion I think we'll all be pleasantly surprised.

As for the delays, clearly we'd be insane to cancel and lose the capital appreciation but of course delays cost us money - specifically, rental income. This is particularly acute for those of us buying more than one and using the long-term payment plan. I for one will be negotiating with Select Properties to stop making the quarterly payments from the time the apartments should contractually be delivered and the actual completion date.

^^ Its falsework or staging for the soffit deck.

tnx, I should have know that but it looked a bit too strong for it imo. :)

I don't know about that. A lot of participation from other forumers on the subject. Anyway your last post was about how much profit you are expecting from the sale of your Torch apt. People in glass houses and all that!


I would have thought forumers such as Mackie1964 & Joannides who have bought into TT would have had at least some sort of positive statement to make regarding my comments about how much profit owners may make on their apartments once finished, using MH as an example. Perhaps an ounce of agreement or some indication of some sort of pleasure that their investment may pay off nicely would have been appreciated........ I even went to the trouble of posting MH asking prices from Gulf News, but alas, I guess this does not fit in with your overall negativity about DS and it would be too painful for you to share any sort of agreement with me......instead all we had was yet another ramble over the likely completion date, which we seem to go over again and again every two months or so........all you're doing is providing ammunition to the likes of True Blue who'll take every opportunity to have a go at DS........oh well never mind........I tried :ohno:

So......on another positive note......many thanks for the internal photos Mackie they're great, much appreciated.

I would have thought forumers such as Mackie1964 & Joannides who have bought into TT would have had at least some sort of positive statement to make regarding my comments about how much profit owners may make on their apartments one finished, using MH as an example. Perhaps an ounce of agreement or some indication of some sort of pleasure that their investment may pay off nicely would have been appreciated........ I even went to the trouble of posting MH asking prices from Gulf News, but alas, I guess this does not fit in with your overall negativity about DS and it would be too painful for you to share any sort of agreement with me......instead we just all we had was yet another ramble over the likely completion date, which we seem to go over again and again every two months or so........all you're doing is providing ammunition to the likes of True Blue who'll take every opportunity to have a go at DS........oh well never mind........I tried :ohno:

So......on another positive note......many thanks for the internal photos Mackie they're great, much appreciated.


Calm down sir!

I have not singled out DS for any special attention, I regard my posts as unbiased opinions based soley on my interests in both construction and Dubai Marina.

If people want to post quotes made by DS, or any other developer, that I clearly find missleading, then as a freind of the SSC forumers in general, I will offer my t'opence worth.

That is what this forum embraces, peoples considered opinions. :)

Calm down sir!

I have not singled out DS for any special attention, I regard my posts as unbiased opinions based soley on my interests in both construction and Dubai Marina.

If people want to post quotes made by DS, or any other developer, that I clearly find missleading, then as a freind of the SSC forumers in general, I will offer my t'opence worth.

That is what this forum embraces, peoples considered opinions. :)

Fair enough True Blue, I agee this is what makes the forum interesting and your construction posts are very valuable to us all, I was perhaps harsh in my comment about you and apologise.
I just find it really strange that when I try and make a really positive comment about TT those that have actually bought into it have SO MUCH negativity....... I don't hear you slating your developer Cayan in the same way...... oh well there's nothing stranger than folk......as they say.

I would have thought forumers such as Mackie1964 & Joannides who have bought into TT would have had at least some sort of positive statement to make regarding my comments about how much profit owners may make on their apartments one finished, using MH as an example. Perhaps an ounce of agreement or some indication of some sort of pleasure that their investment may pay off nicely would have been appreciated........ I even went to the trouble of posting MH asking prices from Gulf News, but alas, I guess this does not fit in with your overall negativity about DS and it would be too painful for you to share any sort of agreement with me......instead we just all we had was yet another ramble over the likely completion date, which we seem to go over again and again every two months or so........all you're doing is providing ammunition to the likes of True Blue who'll take every opportunity to have a go at DS........oh well never mind........I tried :ohno:

So......on another positive note......many thanks for the internal photos Mackie they're great, much appreciated.

I would love to have something positive to say about this investment but at present I can't unless I put my blinkers on. By the time you add the interest that you are paying to DS for your apartment, you will find that are paying over a million for it, then adding the 220K + that you are loosing in income ......you do the math. I find it hard to remain loyal to somebody who lies constantly to us and I do not have any particular emotional attachment to TT. I am in this game to make money and having bought more than one unit in the torch, I have to keep on top of the situation other wise we will end up loosing too much money. :ohno:

I would have thought forumers such as Mackie1964 & Joannides who have bought into TT would have had at least some sort of positive statement to make regarding my comments about how much profit owners may make on their apartments once finished, using MH as an example. Perhaps an ounce of agreement or some indication of some sort of pleasure that their investment may pay off nicely would have been appreciated........ I even went to the trouble of posting MH asking prices from Gulf News, but alas, I guess this does not fit in with your overall negativity about DS and it would be too painful for you to share any sort of agreement with me......instead all we had was yet another ramble over the likely completion date, which we seem to go over again and again every two months or so........all you're doing is providing ammunition to the likes of True Blue who'll take every opportunity to have a go at DS........oh well never mind........I tried :ohno:

So......on another positive note......many thanks for the internal photos Mackie they're great, much appreciated.


Morrismarina, a newspaper clipping as an indication of profit doesn’t mean that much to me, it’s too speculative and given the timeframe and fact that we don’t know when the project will complete means it’s too early for any of us to determine the profit. I do appreciate that you tried to help some of us be more positive though.

As for going over the completion date every two months, given the disparity between the dates provided by DS and what we see and hear on this forum, I think it’s perfectly natural and valid for the completion date to be a regular topic for discussion. Do you not? - is the point where you can get your ROI not important to you?

Finally, this really isn’t about providing ammunition to the likes of True Blue. He obviously knows a lot more about construction that we could ever hope to know and unlike our sometimes, speculative comments, his are grounded with knowledge & experience. On this basis, i very much doubt he relies on 'ammunition' from others, to demonstrate shortfalls.

....... I don't hear you slating your developer Cayan in the same way......

You have made a statement so I need to clarify the situation;

Cayan seem to be a completely different animal. Either they aren't in it for the money or they are shit at marketing.

I was on a waiting list for a Jewels 1 bed as there were only 16 in the development. When I got mine I was told that completion was Targeted for Dec 06, however they had 6 months grace on that date or you could get a full refund. I laughed at their optomism and booked my final 35% handover payment for 5 months after Dec 06. (How many developers do you know operate 35% final payment?).

This time last year they announced a delay to the Jewels of 3 months and cancelled all payments for 3 months. They have now estimated handover around Sept 07, 9 months late, allegedly due to DEWA utility connections. I have only paid them 65% so far and the building is nearly complete. Who is suffering the most? There isn't 35% profit in the project so I'm guessing they need the final payment badly. With Infinity they did a similar thing and cancelled payments for 6 months while they sort out the site problems. You can criticise a company like Cayan but slating would be over reacting.

On the other hand, taking 90% of investors money when a project has barely started and is clearly in significant delay AND altering the contract without prior consultation does deserve a slating in my opinion.

I hope they don't do the same to the investors in their other projects as they have in Torch.

On the subject of construction. I hear the next floor/slab will be in 3 weeks.

AND altering the contract without prior consultation does deserve a slating in my opinion.


Your info around The Jewels payments is interesting so thanks for sharing with us.

All I can say is that when I signed my TT contract completion was scheduled for 30th June 2008 with compensation payments for delay being made after 31st December 2008 based upon the amount paid at LIBOR plus 1%. I was happy with this and knowing that most developments in Dubai run 12 months late (I notice The Jewels is 9 months late & it's anybody's guess how long Infinity will be delayed) I budgeted for the additional interest that I would have to pay for 6 months ie. from June to Dec 2008. Now if TT completes after Dec 2008 I would expect DS to cough up and pay the stated compensation so that I am not out of pocket. So I can honestly say I do not have any issue at all with DS or my contract and I'm somewhat confused as to why others investors are unhappy. Yes DS are taking an incredibly large chunk of my money upfront, when I make another payment next month I have paid 90% of the purchase price. Some make think this is unfair but nobody was held at gunpoint to sign their contracts and if they didn't like it they had a choice to walk away and buy elsewhere.

It appears that the vast majority of developers like Cayan offer to re-schedule the payments due if there is likely to be a delay but we must remember that there is no compensation payment in their contracts. DS chose to do things differently by not rescheduling but instead making compensation payments after 6 months. Which is the better system ?? I don't know, but I do know that I accepted this when I signed my contract. We can't honestly expect DS to delay payments AND pay compensation as well. Unfortunately that's having your cake and eating it !!

Now....the million dollar question is will DS pay compensation out after 31 Dec 2008 ?? Well we'll have to wait and see and I guess this is the real issue that Mackie and Joannides feel uncomfortable about........but in all fairness they were happy to sign their contracts.

BTW I've no idea at all about your comment that the contract has been altered without prior consultation ??

^^
no, as i stated, i was told it was scheduled to complete end of 2007. When the contract came through and indicated 6 months later, i questioned the date, where i was told they had put the deadline back as a 'satefy measure' to ensure the timing was accurate.

^^

Oh I see......they didn't actually change the contract it's always said completion 30th June 2008.

This is all getting very boring........

:blahblah::blahblah::blahblah::blahblah::blahblah::blahblah:

:lol: Only kidding.

^^ :lol:

Yeah, getting a bit tit for tat, the teacher will soon summon us both to the front of the classroom to keep an eye on us. :poke:

Oh I see......they didn't actually change the contract it's always said completion 30th June 2008.

to clarify, i paid a 1000 pound deposit, at which point i was told it would be end of 2007. the first i knew about the mid 2008 date was when the contract came through.

to clarify though, i have nothing against DS, nor do i want refund at this late stage, all i want ideally, is to see a demonstrated effort in them completing the project according to their revised deadline.

^^ :lol:

Yeah, getting a bit tit for tat, the teacher will soon summon us both to the front of the classroom to keep an eye on us. :poke:

Yes it was just getting interesting again.....but perhaps we'd better put our catapults away for a while........before Krazy puts us on detention after school for straying into investment talk again. :lol:

^^ Fat chance of that! Krazy's far too busy in the "Investment Thread" these days talking about his property/mortgages/interest-rates conundrum!!! :lol: :runaway:


Back...sorry had to answer the door. Only joking Sameer! ;) (Shit! I'm in for it now! )

No more photo updates? I guess Mr "HateTorch"'s neighbour has now encrypted his connection :D

No more photo updates? I guess Mr "HateTorch"'s neighbour has now encrypted his connection :D

Give me another 4hrs; there are visible progress.
I am still in the office ... rgds.

^^ the 4 longest houres ever for me :D

Date: 15-May-2007, GMT+4, 1715hrs

http://i5.tinypic.com/5z3u1a8.jpg

^^ thanks for the update! the columns outside the core are ready and now they've start working on the temporary support for the first real floor :banana:

hardly any workers on site!!!

HateTorch can you even see how far 23 marina in construction is?

hardly any workers on site!!!

^^ Noted in anti force majeure claim diary.

^^ maybe it was because of the time of the day. coffee break or they stop working at five o clock...

^^ maybe it was because of the time of the day. coffee break or they stop working at five o clock...

I saw them (majority) stop working at 5pm twice.
I saw them going up the company bus.

Disclaimer: But that does not mean that their official knock-off time is 5pm ... I do not want to get into dispute here :ohno:

At torch, the workers are either dressed in blue or gray coveralls, and they either wear blue or yellow safety helmets. So far, blue coverall with yellow helmet, or gray coverall with blue helmets look like a standard among them.

At the time the above picture was taken, there are some blue coveralls folks down in the pit. Pic quality is not good today ... so it is not clearly visible.

Rgds.

HateTorch can you even see how far 23 marina in construction is?

23 Marina - Assuming the Dubai Plot map is correct, that's the one with nice Dubai Media City view and/or nice road Interchange 5 view.

It is too far to have a decent pic, and my view is partially blocked by tall crane of Mag 218 Tower
But from naked eye, no hole was dug.

Rgds.

But I do not remember if I see work there

But there has to be a lot of work, because the construction of the tower is only a few day behind the one of the Torch.
:dunno: :dunno:

But there has to be a lot of work, because the construction of the tower is only a few day behind the one of the Torch.
:dunno: :dunno:

I will recheck in the morning.

^^ 23 marina is the site next to the place where a viaduct turns towards interchange 5. you know that new viaduct...

23 Marina - Assuming the Dubai Plot map is correct, that's the one with nice Dubai Media City view and/or nice road Interchange 5 view.

It is too far to have a decent pic, and my view is partially blocked by tall crane of Mag 218 Tower
But from naked eye, no hole was dug.

Rgds.

You must be looking at the wrong plot, as 23 Marina has a hole dug and is basically at the same stage of construction as The Torch..

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/2465/imresolt048qr7.jpg

So you can see clearly the two sites in the front, left is Magtower and the right one is 23 Marina

Date: 16-May-2007, GMT+4, 1815hrs

http://i12.tinypic.com/6as6lgi.jpg

Date: 16-May-2007, GMT+4, 1815hrs

http://i14.tinypic.com/4v454l5.jpg

Date: 16-May-2007, GMT+4, 1815hrs

http://i10.tinypic.com/66yp24h.jpg

Date: 16-May-2007, GMT+4, 1815hrs

http://i13.tinypic.com/4tjm493.jpg

I see the days left is 843, there goes the 31st December 2008 target. Have I calculated right that this would make it September 2009 approx.

Excellent pictures, keep them coming.

looks encouraging to me

I see the days left is 843, there goes the 31st December 2008 target. Have I calculated right that this would make it September 2009 approx.

Excellent pictures, keep them coming.

Notice how they have left completion date entry blank.... i would not expect handover before early 2010 if everything goes well

Interesting. Does that sign board prove that force majeure can not be claimed as they are stating 843 days remaining at current investent level of man power. This contradicts the dates in the contract signed and there is no good reason for it taking longer.

By the way, I must get a N95, photo quality is great for a mobile phone. Thanks for the photo update HT, you are the Imre of the Torch thread.

According to those man hours figures, it would take 1 man 60 years to complete at 12 hours per day, 7 days per week. Maybe Peter Riddoch will try to build Ocean Heights on his own then as his lifetime's work :lol:

Great photos, many thanks. Please keep them coming.

I am resisting the temptation of talking too much about the Force Majeure to ensure that we don't give much away. They read this forum frequently and I have discussed this with them in the past, actually they brought it up last time I was in Dubai.

Just have this in mind. It is down to them to prove a force majeure claim and this information if collected correctly along with other information :) and presented in the right way to discredit their claim.

They will not amend the completion date partly because of the payments from people that are not on the long-term plan but it does not take any construction knowledge now to tell that 2008 is completely out of the question.

Oh S**t, we have been talking about completion date again………Watch out Morris is about :lol:

This shows that since Dec 06 they have been working on a programmed completion of Sept 09 and telling the investors End of 08. No point in confronting them with it, they will just tell you anything to make you happy.

Yes I'm still here Mackie :lol:

I haven't much to say really other than........ fuckin' hell :ohno:

Glad to see the thread is finally back on track again :lol:

Tag one asked earlier what the red steel was in the core, from these much better pictures its obvious that its the framework of the core formwork. Could be slip form, I can see jacks.

Is this the board of the company doing ALL the construction (inside and out) or just the structure?

This is the board for the main contractor and it should mean that it is the overall complete build and commission.

Just for a laugh play around with these figures, for example divide the overall spent hours by the no of lapsed days then divide by the number of workers you think on average and look at the daily average working hours..........It is a f******g joke.:ohno:

Now apply this average to the remaining manhrs / days........Real joke:ohno:

whats the big deal if completion slips a year or two? if you've got the money to invest in dubai property, you'd be daft not to factor slippage in the timetable into your budget. it seems pretty naive to me to constantly bleat about delayed completion.

how many dubai projects have completed on schedule?

how many 80 + storey towers worldwide complete on schedule?

either way, it should be a spectacular building (the most important thing) and a sound investment. relax.............

Tag one asked earlier what the red steel was in the core, from these much better pictures its obvious that its the framework of the core formwork. Could be slip form, I can see jacks.

yeah those pictures gave a very clear picture of what the steel was! now I also see why that steel is thicker than the support they used for the collumns. many thanks for the pictures!

True Blue, some of the collumns are a bit thin imo. although they are reinforced they doesn look they can handel the weight of 84 floors. I know that some of them are for the podium, but the left one below the core is definitely part of the tower and also thin (about 30cm wide or something?) imo. how do you think about them?

whats the big deal if completion slips a year or two? if you've got the money to invest in dubai property, you'd be daft not to factor slippage in the timetable into your budget. it seems pretty naive to me to constantly bleat about delayed completion.

how many dubai projects have completed on schedule?

how many 80 + storey towers worldwide complete on schedule?

either way, it should be a spectacular building (the most important thing) and a sound investment. relax.............

:lol: Morris the II

whats the big deal if completion slips a year or two? if you've got the money to invest in dubai property, you'd be daft not to factor slippage in the timetable into your budget. it seems pretty naive to me to constantly bleat about delayed completion.

how many dubai projects have completed on schedule?

how many 80 + storey towers worldwide complete on schedule?

either way, it should be a spectacular building (the most important thing) and a sound investment. relax.............

^^
DS?

B McBarry is 100% correct, the thing will be delayed as is everything else, so what, if you took a loan out on your flat then you should be a bit worried otherwise looking at prices and what these flats went for you are going to have a healthy investment regardless.

^^ and 18 to 24 months lost rental income :( approx £40,000

If we factor in a delay of say 12 months then completion will be:

1. 31st Dec 2009 according to Dubai Select or
2. 7th September 2010 according to the contractor DCE

So long as DS do pay compensation as per the contract them I don't really have much of a problem, it will cover my finance costs in borrowing the funds (against my equity in the UK). I would expect them to honour the agreement as they would have received a big chunk of money upfront which is presumably earning good interest on the money markets or wherever they've invested it - this can then be used to fund the compensation interest payments which will just about cover the rate that I'm being charged. Yes there is loss of rental income but this is the risk you take when buying off-plan. I would hope we see DS now comming clean about the completion date otherwise they're going to look very silly indeed...........and let's all hope the compensation does get paid to us at the end of the day.

^^ no chance of that morris, that is why you need to build a case.

^^ no chance of that morris, that is why you need to build a case.

Well I was relying on this when I signed the contract, especially with DS requiring such a large amount to be paid upfront compared to other developments. On what basis would they be able to get out of it ??

Morris is right. The only compensation you have a chance of getting is whatever is stated in the contract i.e. interest after 6 months delay and not 'lost rental income'

^^
DS?

Definitely (imo)…

What is your "B" plan? "A" being getting your compensation money if for some reson you do not get it.

I'm sure I've read somewhere that Peter Riddoch said Damac paid compensation interest in respect of either The Waves or Marina Terrace (or perhaps both ? ). If this is true then perhaps DS will honour the compensation clause.

What is your "B" plan? "A" being getting your compensation money if for some reson you do not get it.

^^ There is a very strong case for suing Select Properties if this situation arises. Can not give details here.

True Blue, some of the collumns are a bit thin imo. although they are reinforced they doesn look they can handel the weight of 84 floors. I know that some of them are for the podium, but the left one below the core is definitely part of the tower and also thin (about 30cm wide or something?) imo. how do you think about them?

I'm sure I read about 2 years back that they were using 100 N/mm2 strength concrete. I'm not a fan of high tech concrete but that helps to reduce the cross sectional area and help with more basement space. The columns themselves are short so they will have no problem taking the full force in compression without buckling.

^^ I never knew about concrete with a strenght of 100 N/mm2. So far I learned that the max was 75 N/mm2. I once heared about concrete with small pieces of carbon fibres in it, so it could handle more stress. is that used in this concrete?

^^ Pass!

^^ I never knew about concrete with a strenght of 100 N/mm2. So far I learned that the max was 75 N/mm2. I once heared about concrete with small pieces of carbon fibres in it, so it could handle more stress. is that used in this concrete?

DS claims that, it is a first that concrete of this strength has been used in such large quantities, this concrete being 100N/mm2 concrete.

If you look on the web, it is used all over the place.

http://www.concretecentre.com/main.asp?page=609


@ Dubai Steve;

Let us not give them ideas, they have not said that they are claiming FM yet and they also have not said that they would not pay compensation. We should ask them to clarify but I am not sure they will.

Has anybody contacted them regarding this issue?

^^ thanks for the interresting article! :cheers:

Definitely (imo)…

yeah, my family name is dubai mcselect.
its all a conspiracy to defraud as many people as possible, and i'm the criminal mastermind.
and here's a prescription for some olanzapine.
:lol:

yeah, my family name is dubai mcselect.
its all a conspiracy to defraud as many people as possible, and i'm the criminal mastermind.
and here's a prescription for some olanzapine.
:lol:

F@ckin'ell Barry I told you just to blow the bloody doors off ......not to start telling 'em all this stuff.......we could serve years for this :ohno:

yeah, my family name is dubai mcselect.
its all a conspiracy to defraud as many people as possible, and i'm the criminal mastermind.
and here's a prescription for some olanzapine.
:lol:

So you are a skyscrapers fan that all of his/her posts are to do with the Torch, may be it is the only interesting tower on this forum.........Yes right:)

yeah, our covers blown. fill up the hole with sand. extinguish the torch.
we'll set up shop in qatar.:hammer: :hammer: :nuts:

So you are a skyscrapers fan that all of his/her posts are to do with the Torch, may be it is the only interesting tower on this forum.........Yes right:)

its the only tower i've BOUGHT in, hence my interest. but i'm not building it.
just trying to inject a little optimism, but i enjoy paranoid fantasies as much as anyone.

LONG LIVE THE MIGHTY TORCH!!!!!!!!!!!:banana:

***

just trying to inject a little optimism


Don't bother I've tried........

yeah, my family name is dubai mcselect.
its all a conspiracy to defraud as many people as possible, and i'm the criminal mastermind.
and here's a prescription for some olanzapine.
:lol:

no, i dont think i need any of 'your' prescribed olanzapine, although i would suggest you tell your doctor that its not working - that you need thiopental sodium instead - we might start getting somewhere then:)

If we factor in a delay of say 12 months then completion will be:

1. 31st Dec 2009 according to Dubai Select or
2. 7th September 2010 according to the contractor DCE




I haven't much to say really other than........ fuckin' hell :ohno:

Well I was relying on this when I signed the contract, especially with DS requiring such a large amount to be paid upfront compared to other developments. On what basis would they be able to get out of it ??

Try harder Morris, you are failing miserably :lol:

I personally blame Trueblue for all of this negativity, fancy having an educated thoughts about The Mighty Torch. :lol:

no, i dont think i need any of 'your' prescribed olanzapine, although i would suggest you tell your doctor that its not working - that you need thiopental sodium instead - we might start getting somewhere then:)

this is all getting a bit silly. my fault, i started it. everyone on to fluoxetine and be done with it.

btw, for what its worth, i think dec 2009 at the earliest. all i'm saying is, i'm not worried about it. no point giving yourself high blood pressure about stuff you can't control.

now, to the boozer..........:cheers:

its the only tower i've BOUGHT in, hence my interest. but i'm not building it.
just trying to inject a little optimism, but i enjoy paranoid fantasies as much as anyone.

LONG LIVE THE MIGHTY TORCH!!!!!!!!!!!:banana:

thats the whole point - there is no mighty torch!!! :lol:

thats the whole point - there is no mighty torch!!! :lol:

you're right. i'm an idiot.:nuts:

long live the mighty hole in the ground with concrete, metal and blokes in it.:banana:

i really am off to the pub now:cheers: :nocrook: :angel:

^^ :lol: :lol: :lol:

At least youre injecting humor!

:lol: Morris the II

Now I'm getting really confused..........I'm off to the pub as well. :lol:

Can't take this stress of Torch delays...I'm off the to pub as well... :D










oh wait a minute I can't afford to - my next payment is due in 10 days :(

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/7189/imresolt176ni2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/4919/imresolt169pd2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/4782/imresolt170wt5.th.jpg (http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imresolt170wt5.jpg)http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/2787/imresolt171pf6.th.jpg (http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imresolt171pf6.jpg)http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/7351/imresolt172vp0.th.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imresolt172vp0.jpg)http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/9173/imresolt173em8.th.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imresolt173em8.jpg)
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/2923/imresolt174mj6.th.jpg (http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imresolt174mj6.jpg)http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/3785/imresolt175eq1.th.jpg (http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imresolt175eq1.jpg)http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/2307/imresolt177xk3.th.jpg (http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imresolt177xk3.jpg)http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/3076/imresolt178hs4.th.jpg (http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imresolt178hs4.jpg)

Thanks for the detailed pictures Imre, I love to see the development of this tower :cheers:

Imre;

Was there no workers at the Torch site today at all?

Mag 218 seems to have many workers!

no workers there

I know it is Friday but it goes against what I was told. Does this mean a 5 days working week?

only the Friday off, but the Summer interesting here:)

8-13 breakfast , tee , some works ...sleeping 13-16 ...16-18 , relax , afternoon tee , some very small works:)

Stuff the next payment - I'm off to the pub...

I meant generally in Dubai not in the Torch site:)

if delayed completion is a consequence of better, more humane working conditions for the workers, and it costs me a few bob, i'm happy with that. those guys deserve a break (literally and metaphorically):cool:

From Khaleejtimes
Firms mull midday break from June
By Mary Nammour
18 May 2007
http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/theuae/2007/May/theuae_May547.xml&section=theuae&col=

I guess the "statistics board" will need to be monitored on twice weekly basis to see the actual behaviour.

Oops, DS or his clones may be watching this too ... :lol: :lol:

if delayed completion is a consequence of better, more humane working conditions for the workers, and it costs me a few bob, i'm happy with that. those guys deserve a break (literally and metaphorically):cool:

What is the treatment of the workers has to do with meeting deadline and achieving targets, have you ever heard of Shifts and or workers rotation systems, it happens all over the world on construction sites in far worse condition, not planning for the right number of people or putting in place the correct system is not an excuse. Midday breaks and rotation systems have been used in South America for years with a great success.

The fact that Emaratie business men are greedy, screw the workers and treat them in-humane, has absolutely nothing to do with planning a successful project. I hope that both DS and DCE are looking after their workers but I am not holding much hope, as it seems to be OK in Dubai to treat your fellow human being in such appalling way.

I could educate you a little further but I feel, it will be wasted on you I think.

Where about in the Torch have you bought?

I have been in the Pub straight from work and I don’t have enough brownie points to go again so I am afraid I can’t join all of you. :cheers:

What is the treatment of the workers has to do with meeting deadline and achieving targets, have you ever heard of Shifts and or workers rotation systems, it happens all over the world on construction sites in far worse condition, not planning for the right number of people or putting in place the correct system is not an excuse. Midday breaks and rotation systems have been used in South America for years with a great success.

The fact that Emaratie business men are greedy, screw the workers and treat them in-humane, has absolutely nothing to do with planning a successful project. I hope that both DS and DCE are looking after their workers but I am not holding much hope, as it seems to be OK in Dubai to treat your fellow human being in such appalling way.

I could educate you a little further but I feel, it will be wasted on you I think.

Where about in the Torch have you bought?

I have been in the Pub straight from work and I don’t have enough brownie points to go again so I am afraid I can’t join all of you. :cheers:

nah, i've never heard of any of that stuff. sounds like a system though for getting things done.
i'm about half way up, marina FACING, maybe marina VIEW.:cheer:

20-May-2007, GMT+4

http://i15.tinypic.com/4u0fi4y.jpg

20-May-2007, GMT+4

http://i1.tinypic.com/4unx3zs.jpg

20-May-2007, GMT+4

http://i11.tinypic.com/6bwhi00.jpg

^^ They actually put these things on the boards!!!?? And how do we know they arent lying?

only 839 days :lol: :lol:

only 839 days :lol: :lol:

^^ That is about 2 years and 3 months! I have very strong doubts:ohno:

I see they are still working on the 1st basement slab.

i'm full of confidence.
IT CAN BE DONE!:yes:

IF it can be done by that date then it will have been 15 months late from the original date given when purchased.

^^ Your IF isn't big enough. Try this one;

IF

:)

IF it can be done by that date then it will have been 15 months late from the original date given when purchased.

What was the original handover date?

30 June 2008

i contacted dubai select, asking them to confirm the dates, seeing that the board implies 2 yrs 3 months or so. they said the board been had been displayed without their notification, and recognised that the numbers are creating confusion. They said they're looking into the accuracy and interpretation of the figures, and after that they said they will then clear up any confusion, hopefully tomorrow.

Hi Malec

Could you tell me please which software are you using for your designs?

Thanks

google sketch-up ;)

23/May/2007

Marina Pinnacle , The Torch and Unnamed Emaar site from Time Place

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/8848/imresolt082qw1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/9866/imresolt113og5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

i was just thinking that considering all the new concepts of the recent launched projects (i.e. da vinci tower, pentonomium, etc.), the roof-feauture of TT it is going to have to be very special, and not out-of-date next to its "competition"; after all DS calls TT their landmark development.

i hope that in the near future we will see some really innovative and outstanding solution.

On the subject of delays, a letter today from Trident who are building Mariascape, throws some light on why most of the developers are having the same problems as DS.

"Legistalive changes to the working hours for construction workers, which came into effect in 2006 has caused significant delay by causing strain on available manpower, work loads and time frame re-scheduling, this together with the sheer scale of the construction in Dubai's booming real estate market, has also caused additional delay in terms of material supplies and the installation of same".

They must all be feeling the pinch, just the Torch seems to get the hammering, I dont mind at all, will be worth more when it's done.

Alan

^^ Just a load of bollocks from Trident about Marinascape so they can secure a force majeure claim. Workers can work in shifts, sounds like mismanagement to me.

the main difference is that DS have collected 90% in first 2 years and only 10% left for completion while Marinscape is 40% at completeion (I think!). Well Marinscape owners will confirm, I am sure.

^^ Just a load of bollocks from Trident about Marinascape so they can secure a force majeure claim. Workers can work in shifts, sounds like mismanagement to me.

Believe me Steve, is NOT. Even more delays can be expected in the future due to shortagge of machineries that are to hit the market after the summer.

Altin;

You suppose to be the wise one around here:)

People are missing the fundamental points totally. I will try to keep it very simple, to deliver a successful project, you have to plan well, highlight/evaluate the risks to achieve your plan and build in contingencies to ensure complete recovery. I don't see any of the basic principals being addressed here. :ohno:

Maybe DS should offer the option to suspend payments on the lengthy payment plan after Dec 08 until completion.

Altin;

You suppose to be the wise one around here:)

People are missing the fundamental points totally. I will try to keep it very simple, to deliver a successful project, you have to plan well, highlight/evaluate the risks to achieve your plan and build in contingencies to ensure complete recovery. I don't see any of the basic principals being addressed here. :ohno:

My only point is that unexpected shortagges of personel, equipments and materials are REAL challenges and not something "invented" by developers to justify their delays.

However I'm not saying that they don't talk sh*t, in contrary I keep saying all the time that the developers here always give unrealistic completition dates and "stick" with them even when themselfs are convinced no being able to reach them.

So see there are two separate issues here., and we are seeing the problem from slightly different angles.

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/7885/torchhr7.jpg

^^ wonderfull work Malec! great to see how this beauty will look like :cheers:
btw I mis the daily update :cry:

Date: 25-May-2007, GMT+4

http://i9.tinypic.com/63ab2ox.jpg

Date: 25-May-2007, GMT+4

http://i19.tinypic.com/5yuepus.jpg

Date: 25-May-2007, GMT+4
http://i14.tinypic.com/5yl30ix.jpg

^^ is that sandstorm in the back? btw.. you got a great view of the atlantis and looks like it wont go away even with TT and Princess

Great job malec.

^^ is that sandstorm in the back? btw.. you got a great view of the atlantis and looks like it wont go away even with TT and Princess

Nope, that is a helicopter landing kicking up the dust.

Sometimes the weather is clear, so the palm/atlantis/boats/sea is nice.
But seeing the atlantis without the stretch of palm/boats/sea is meaningless; the picture is not complete.

Thus "hatetorch" is borned ! :banana:

^^ helicopter landing where? and why?

^^ helicopter landing where? and why?

Sorry, to be exact : I saw the helicopter hovering downwards, kicking up the sand when I snap the pic. After the pic, I went back into the house.

I do not know whether it has actually touch the ground or not.
But that is really an helicopter there.

Rgds.

many, many thanks for the great pictures HateTorch!! :cheers:
they've made some nice progress at the Torch
:)

why do you hate the Torch?

Maybe DS should offer the option to suspend payments on the lengthy payment plan after Dec 08 until completion.

I'd go a stage further. I think they should waive the staged payments between the last date for completion under the contract (Dec '08) and when they actually hand over the properties in habitable condition and with good title.

My reason for saying this is that, like many here, I'm banking on my Torch apartments at least funding the staged payments, except for those that are scheduled between payment of the deposits and contractual completion. If DS deliver late, not only am I having to shell out payments not supported by rental income - a cashflow issue - but I'm also losing rental income, ie revenue.

.....

i just heard that DS are in the process of sending every Torch apartment owner a letter regarding the timeline and the concerns raised over the 'days remaining' on the board.

i think that the very fact they will communicate to all of us by letter means they must be planning to confirm (what we all know) the pushback of the completion.

one thing is for sure, it certainly wont be good news!

:bash:

i just heard that DS are in the process of sending every Torch apartment owner a letter regarding the timeline and the concerns raised over the 'days remaining' on the board.

i think that the very fact they will communicate to all of us by letter means they must be planning to confirm (what we all know) the pushback of the completion.

one thing is for sure, it certainly wont be good news!

:bash:
we'll get a better idea of the timescale when we start timing how quickly it rises. they claim 2 floors every 10 days i think.:wink2:

I'd go a stage further. I think they should waive the staged payments between the last date for completion under the contract (Dec '08) and when they actually hand over the properties in habitable condition and with good title.

My reason for saying this is that, like many here, I'm banking on my Torch apartments at least funding the staged payments, except for those that are scheduled between payment of the deposits and contractual completion. If DS deliver late, not only am I having to shell out payments not supported by rental income - a cashflow issue - but I'm also losing rental income, ie revenue.

I think the best compromise is to move payments due from end of Dec 08 (when compensation is due) until apartment hand over to the end of the term. I would be happy with that. We pay the same total amount, (so DS will not loose out in the long run) but at least we get cash flow back and are not caused to go backrupt by DS mismanagement.

I doubt they can put the brake on payments being made for folks on the 15 year payment plan. Not exactly sure how DS finance this but I did hear somewhere on SSC a long time ago, that the contract is sold to a bank whereby DS receive a lump sum upfront I think it was 90% the bank take a cut of 10%.......but the purchase price is inflated by 10% so the developer doesn't lose out.....something like that....... don't think developers finance these payment plans themselves they wouldn't have sufficient capital. Can't see whoever is providing the finance agreeing to payments being suspended......they haven't caused the delay.

Another issue is what about investors not on the payment plan they'd have paid 90% upfront in cash.........no further payments are due until the final 10% on completion.......unlikely DS would want to refund some of the payments already made. Certainly the only answer here would be for compensation payments to be made.

Has anybody actually asked DS about all this ??

I did ask them 2 weeks ago, and they came back that currently there is no change in the payment plan on a case per case basis, however i think if enough people are askin they would at least consider it


I doubt they can put the brake on payments being made for folks on the 15 year payment plan. Not exactly sure how DS finance this but I did hear somewhere on SSC a long time ago, that the contract is sold to a bank whereby DS receive a lump sum upfront I think it was 90% the bank take a cut of 10%.......but the purchase price is inflated by 10% so the developer doesn't lose out.....something like that....... don't think developers finance these payment plans themselves they wouldn't have sufficient capital. Can't see whoever is providing the finance agreeing to payments being suspended......they haven't caused the delay.

Another issue is what about investors not on the payment plan they'd have paid 90% upfront in cash.........no further payments are due until the final 10% on completion.......unlikely DS would want to refund some of the payments already made. Certainly the only answer here would be for compensation payments to be made.



Has anybody actually asked DS about all this ??

why do you hate the Torch?

No, of course not.
I was trying to find a contradicting nick name, that's all.

In fact, I may be a Torch/Emirates-Crown/Marina-Crown tenant after 2 years.
Rgds.

@ Hate Torch;

Many thanks for the photos. Any chance of a photo of the Safety board again please?

unlikely DS would want to refund some of the payments already made. Certainly the only answer here would be for compensation payments to be made.

Has anybody actually asked DS about all this ??


yes, i think you're right. would be extremely surprising is any money paid is released to reflect a revised completion. all we can hope for is some clarity on the compensation, which i hope will be provided as part of their letter to everyone.

I think the best compromise is to move payments due from end of Dec 08 (when compensation is due) until apartment hand over to the end of the term. I would be happy with that. We pay the same total amount, (so DS will not loose out in the long run) but at least we get cash flow back and are not caused to go backrupt by DS mismanagement.

Why would you be happy with this? You'd be losing out, big time.

Forget about the long-term payment plan for the minute and imagine you're paying the whole amount upfront, due Dec '08. You expect to get the keys to your apartment and start receiving rental income. What happens if they deliver it a year late? Unless they can add a year to your lifespan, you're losing a year's rental.

Apply the same principle to the LPP and you reach the same conclusion. It's not sufficient for them to put the staged payments back, they either need to keep them where they are but hand you a cheque for the rental income you're missing (the best solution, because it's the only way to ensure the compensation matches the loss) or, as a possible compromise, they wipe out the instalments due between Dec '08 and eventual handover.

There will be no compensation IMO, it's part and parcel of buying off plan being behind, if anything, you will be offered a full refund on your property, and maybe some interest on the money already paid, would you want to bail out knowing properties have gone up in price, and once this building starts rising out of the ground there will be renewed interest in buying there.

No one in this world will pay you for lost rental income, because how do you know its true, half the tower might be for residents to live in, who knows, but we could all say it was to be rented if there is a handout to be had, how are you going to proove, that you where going to rent it?
Alan

I agree lost income is not possible for everyone. The reason I would be happy with delaying lengthy payments is because at least I would not need to find an extra £15,000 to £20,000.

I cant see what all the debate is about.

It's not about what is fair - its about accepting the inherent risk of buying off-plan and if necessary, obtaining the compensation as set out in the contract. End of...

I cant see what all the debate is about.

It's not about what is fair - its about accepting the inherent risk of buying off-plan and if necessary, obtaining the compensation as set out in the contract. End of...

Your're right.

I cant see what all the debate is about.

It's not about what is fair - its about accepting the inherent risk of buying off-plan and if necessary, obtaining the compensation as set out in the contract. End of...

Perhaps in Dubai this is the case, but in the rest of the civilised world a developer would expect to get sued for being so heavily delayed. They'd also be sued for mis-selling, etc..

Can you give an example of a developer who was sued for late delivery in the US or Europe please?

Putting all the legal talk aside, every time someone states that such delays are acceptable, and part and parcel of buying off-plan, you do yourself and every other owner of a TT apartment an injustice.

We know that DS read the posts on this forum, and so each time one of you accepts the delays as normal, you legitimise them.

If DS were planning to put in place a plan to get things really moving, I'm sure they'd think twice now, as a number of you don't have a problem no matter how late it ends up being, as opposed to everyone calling for immediate action.

Putting all the legal talk aside, every time someone states that such delays are acceptable, and part and parcel of buying off-plan, you do yourself and every other owner of a TT apartment an injustice.

We know that DS read the posts on this forum, and so each time one of you accepts the delays as normal, you legitimise them.

If DS were planning to put in place a plan to get things really moving, I'm sure they'd think twice now, as a number of you don't have a problem no matter how late it ends up being, as opposed to everyone calling for immediate action.

You're right I don't have a problem.......so long as DS pay me compensation as per the contract. I think that's the best I'm going to get from them. Obviously you think otherwise, which is fair enough you're entitled to your opinion.........so let's get a plan of action together.......what exactly do you want DS to do here ??

I was looking to invest in DS. Then decided not to after reading these forums. DS has not finished.....never mind finished. “NOT” even started any projects as yet. Just by putting 2-5 people walking around, to trick people, doest do it for me.
DS more interested in selling, they have 5 building going at moment. See in The Mail on Sunday big add.
I'm not sure….

I was looking to invest in DS. Then decided not to after reading these forums. DS has not finished.....never mind finished. “NOT” even started any projects as yet. Just by putting 2-5 people walking around, to trick people, doest do it for me.
DS more interested in selling, they have 5 building going at moment. See in The Mail on Sunday big add.
I'm not sure….

Are you on drugs ?? Are you insane ?? How can you say DS have not started any projects, they've poured the slab for The Torch, going at a good pace with the foundation work at The Point and piling rigs are starting to be set up at Bay Central. Get yourself checked into re-hab you idiot :ohno:

You call that good pace? Then you need to check yourself into re-hab.

You're right I don't have a problem.......so long as DS pay me compensation as per the contract. I think that's the best I'm going to get from them. Obviously you think otherwise, which is fair enough you're entitled to your opinion.........so let's get a plan of action together.......what exactly do you want DS to do here ??
I would agree with you if we had the details of compensation confirmed, however, in the absense of this, you're pinning all your hopes on this being satisfactory, yet like the rest of us you dont have any of the details aside the vague stuff in the contract.... On an operational level, a good start for DS would be to honour their promises set out in their last letter to everyone and to turn the speculation into fact by explaining exactly how the compensation will work out for everyone, seeing that the completion will certainly breach the contract terms and conditions.

I would agree with you if we had the details of compensation confirmed, however, in the absense of this, you're pinning all your hopes on this being satisfactory, yet like the rest of us you dont have any of the details aside the vague stuff in the contract.... On an operational level, a good start for DS would be to honour their promises set out in their last letter to everyone and to turn the speculation into fact by explaining exactly how the compensation will work out for everyone, seeing that the completion will certainly breach the contract terms and conditions.

OK good point......how about then you give them a ring tomorrow when their office opens and ask them about this.......then perhaps you can let us all know how you got on.

You call that good pace? Then you need to check yourself into re-hab.
Ah good...... so you admit your post was totally incorrect then and DS have actually STARTED SOMETHING.(Glad we got that one straightened out).

Morris- I’m no contraction expert but not a fool either,
But I say what I see.

Please let us keep away from personal attacks because it will put people off participating in this forum and this would be a real shame.

@ HateTorch & Scoot

Can you please keep us updated with as many photos as possible, many thanks.

OK good point......how about then you give them a ring tomorrow when their office opens and ask them about this.......then perhaps you can let us all know how you got on.

I've been trying to get clarification for the last couple of weeks, but with DS still stating that the completion is still on for end of 2008, its difficult to get any sapecifics on compensation. In terms of the promises set out in their last letter, they claim they are delivering on this, contrary to the details (numbers on workers on site/night work etc.) provided on this site.

Someone said we're due to get an update from DS by letter, so for the sake of a couple of days, I'll wait and see what their new position is and whether compensation details are clarified as part of this.

Please let us keep away from personal attacks because it will put people off participating in this forum and this would be a real shame.


Well I suppose it makes you happy that people post intentionally false allegations about DS......makes your day doesn't it ......but I differ with you. If somebody's going to post BS that DS have not even started any projects which is stuipdly untrue then I'm sorry they deserve my reply.

Well I suppose it makes you happy that people post intentionally false allegations about DS......makes your day doesn't it ......but I differ with you. If somebody's going to post BS that DS have not even started any projects which is stuipdly untrue then I'm sorry they deserve my reply.

This is just like back to school days:ohno:

Krazy will get you :lol:

blablabla :)

@ HateTorch & Scoot

Can you please keep us updated with as many photos as possible, many thanks.

I totally agree with that part of your post Mackie :lol:

I really don't care about this whole discussion about if DS is lieing or not, as long as concrete is being poured and rebar being installed I'm happy.

:)

This is just like back to school days:ohno:

Krazy will get you :lol:

:hilarious

:cheers:

Just got my letter. These are the main points:

" DEC have confirmed that they will be finished on the site of The Torch by September 2009. At this time they will have completed and handed over every unit along with commissioning services required to ensure the building is fully operational."

"the first completed properties may be ready to hand over by early 2009, with the remaining properties completed over the following months".

"Much of the cause of this delay has been beyond our control"

Nothing is mentioned about compensation.

^^ Any chance you could scan and post the letter, removing your personal details of course. It's Bank Holiday here today.

Nothing is mentioned about compensation.

Yes it is, "Much of the cause of this delay has been beyond our control". They have no intention to pay.

J

"Much of the cause of this delay has been beyond our control"

Nothing is mentioned about compensation.

Thanks Sheltie.

I think the line about the delay being beyond their control says enough in terms of their compensation plans. Their words prepare the way for no compensation.

I can't work out how to scan and post it, can anyone tell me how to do it?

Assuming that you have a scanner connected to your computer. Go to Start, Control panel, Printers and other hardware, Scanners and Cameras…..pick up the scanner and follow the screen and save it somewhere you remember. Now go to www.tinypic.com or any other upload website and browse for what you have just scanned, upload it, copy the link and paste it here. Failing that, just give us some more details on what is in the letter.

Cheers

This is what's in the letter:

I am writing to give you an update on the construction schedule and planned completion date of the Torch Dubai Marina.

We have received confirmation this week from our construction partner, DEC, and they will be finished on the site of The Torch by September 2009. At this time they will have completed and handed over every unit, along with commissioning the services required to ensure the building is fully operational.

With a project of this scale it is not possible to offer occupancy to every buyer simultaneously and therefore we are contemplating a partial completion programme. Based on this approach, and provided the relevant govermental approvals are available, the first completed properties may be ready to hand over by early 2009, with the reamaining properties completed over the following months. Details of this completion schedule will be made available nearer the time.

Much of the cause of this delay has been beyond our control. Dubai is going through unprecedented construction activity, which has put pressure on the availability of construction material, professional services and labour: not to mention the summer months work break during the day time that was implemented from 2006. These are some of the key reasons why many of the developers in Dubai are behind the published completion dates.

Rest assured that we will continue to execute the accelaration plan introduced earlier this year and remain confident that The Torch will still be one of the first super towers to be completed in this district of the marina.

We appreciate your understanding in this matter and will, of course, keep you informed about further developments and timeframes.

Date: 28-May-2007, GMT+4

http://i12.tinypic.com/63shh1z.jpg

Date: 28-May-2007, GMT+4

http://i14.tinypic.com/4qd8fw2.jpg

Date: 28-May-2007, GMT+4

http://i15.tinypic.com/52x4agx.jpg

Great pictures, thanks.

Date: 28-May-2007, GMT+4

http://i18.tinypic.com/4y8r69h.jpg

Date: 28-May-2007, GMT+4

http://i19.tinypic.com/5zdsumd.jpg

Many thanks to HateTorch and Sheltie.

So those on the lengthy payment plan will all need to find at least an extra £15,000 on average to fund the delay because "Dubai is going through unprecedented construction activity". What happened in the case of JBR, I think they got offered upgrades to their apartments because of the delay?

Did Infinity delay accepting payments because of force majeure ?

^^ Cayan suspended the payments as it was the right thing to do to maintain investor trust.

Don't like most of the DS wording. "We have received confirmation THIS WEEK from our construction partner". BS, You signed a contract with them but you did not know the completion date they are working to!!

Now that the cat is out of the bag and everyone knows we have missled them for so long, lets try and spin it back to an earlier date. "the first completed properties may be ready to hand over by early 2009, with the reamaining properties completed over the following months." More BS designed to appease investors.

If they haven't treated you with enouigh contempt they go on to explain that there is a lot of construction going on in Dubai which has resulted in unforeseen difficulty. I don't know anyone yet who is not aware of the amount of construction going on in Dubai, but apparently a self titled major player has completely missed it.

I wouldn't give these guys 2 shillings of my money.

No doubt I can expect the usual retaliation on The Jewels thread about "Arse end of the Marina" and the usual crap from the DS supporters club.

no this time, I agree with you True Blue.

At least there is an option to exit the contract now we have this letter confirming the delay and force majeure as the reason.

I hope that none of you "The Torch" investors really believe that DCC will hand over all the apartments by end of 2009, starting as early as the beggining of that same year. :ohno:

Of course not, also they will not get the permits to hand over apartments early before full completion and this can be proven.

^^ No doubt I can expect the usual retaliation on The Jewels thread about "Arse end of the Marina" and the usual crap from the DS supporters club.

And you deserve it too, why are you so negative about the mighty DS and the mighty Torch, you are only jealous. Why don’t you go and sort out that underground swimming pool of yours......only kidding :)

Oh, by the way, I met another Trueblue at the Airport last week, he manages the construction of the UAE new University Campus. Terrible taste in football but a nice guy never the less:)

It is a bit worrying as if many of the investors now exit the contract and get all monies paid returned then DS could go bust.

Thanks for the pics HateTorch! They've poured the first 1/3rd of the first floor. So 86 2/3rd to go :)

So much for DS claiming to have "unparalleled access to supply chains"...

At this stage, getting my money back and buying somewhere that will complete this year, albeit at a higher cost, does seem somewhat appealing and is now certainly a possibility.

Thanks for those understanding words Mackie. You will know why I have a lot of frustration to vent, no trophies for soooo looooooooonnnnngggggg.

I'm a bit calmer now. ;)

Looking at the photos, they are ahead with the first suspended floor however they forgot to do the core first. May be the squads that work the climbing formwork haven't arrived from their other site yet.

People who give factual information here shouldn't be driven away simply 'cos investors don't like it. We already lost AlMillion who's not come back after getting a massive amount of flack from Torch owners 'cos he tried to warn them.

Dubai_Steve - I doubt enough people will bail out to cause a problem. DS has funds from other projects to divert if necessary. Also I think perceived profits are such that greed will take over peoples' better judgement.

I've said it before DS = mini DAMAC.

The letter is essentially claiming force majeure. Disgusting. I really feel for those who've paid all but 10%!!!

It is a bit worrying as if many of the investors now exit the contract and get all monies paid returned then DS could go bust.

Don't bet on it.

You might expect more 'delays' with any refunds i.e until after the apartments in question have been re-sold and monies collected from new buyers.

Anyway, I would not expect MANY people to ask for a refund.

So much for DS claiming to have "unparalleled access to supply chains"...

At this stage, getting my money back and buying somewhere that will complete this year, albeit at a higher cost, does seem somewhat appealing and is now certainly a possibility.

i would encourage you to sell up.

if i have to invite too many eeyores like you to my torch housewarming party in 2015, the whole night could turn into a real bummer.:dance2:

dear investors

look's like we've been had. what great timing for DS o issue this letter after we have just paid our installment. The next trick for DS is to announce bankruptcy due to the unprecendented investors wanting their money back!!

dear investors

look's like we've been had. what great timing for DS o issue this letter after we have just paid our installment. The next trick for DS is to announce bankruptcy due to the unprecendented investors wanting their money back!!

I am not for one second defending DS but I find it hard to believe that the delays are a trick or a con. More likely to be project mis-management and bad planning.

If Select Property have any growth ambitions then they must realise that delivering its first landmark development significantly late will not appeal to potential customers.

i agree with rider.
however, there is no excuse to justify the way DS is handling its investors relations.

this behavior will impact badly on their future developments sales.

afterall, what goes around comes around.

You guys are taking advantage of the National holiday in the USA, just because Krazy is not around, it does not mean you talk investment all night :lol:

Let us talk about how deep the hole is or how dry it is comparing with infinity:)

Common Mr Morris and Mr Mcflury; tell me some thing positive or prescribe me some more drugs :cheers:

:ohno:

I can't believe you people actually fell for the rediculous 2008 completion date. I'm not saying the developers aren't to blame, of course they are since they're the ones who promise these rediculous completion dates in the first place. IMO you should give 4 years for the construction of a building over 300m. As an example take rose rotana which went up rediculously fast, that started in mid 2004 and is still a good few months away from opening. Now, the torch started in early 2006 which is fairly normal since it was announced around the middle of 2005 as it takes time to sort out contractors, etc. I recon this will be structurally complete in 2009 and people will get their keys in early to mid 2010. Does not seem at all abnormal to me.
To be honest anyone who believe the torch would be complete, done and dusted, keys handed over and everything in 2 years is, well, living in a dream world. No doubt trident will probably say the pentominium will be complete by 2010 and people will believe that, somehow forgeting that a half-km ultra-tall will take slightly longer than your average 20-storey block.

What bugs me is why don't these developers just say the real completion date from the very beginning. The only people they fool are those who don't do research. If I was buying and they said 2010 I'd say, ok fair enough. If they said 2008 I'd say they're kidding themselves and would expect it to be finished in 2010 anyway.

Unfortunately Mackie I haven't got anything in my medical case to prescribe for you at the present time.........this is due to an unforseen and unprecedented shortage of medical supplies caused by circumstances behond my control. What few supplies I did have available I have had to use on myself this evening :lol:
It's errrrr.......not good news really, but I think we all knew this from a week or so ago when we saw the DCE site board. I had been hopeful of compensation payments being made but by the tone of the letter even I admit now that this appears to be unlikely.
We are now looking at a delay of 15 months from the stated completion date.......without any compensation payments I'm going to be struggling here........how realistic is Sept '09 or could this date be put back even further ??
(BTW True Blue I have to be honest with you, I can't disgree with your summing up of the DS letter).