The Torch, working at night

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/liver4eva/New%20SSC/2008/January/Jan%2012%20Marina%20Palm%20and%20SZR/IMG_6124.jpg

Thanks to Omaro

^^Looks like they are pouring the next floor or the core (Hopefully both!).

No, they've not even finished the 2nd tower floorplate yet ... 8 days after the first one was finished. Then they need to prepare the rebar and pour the concrete ... I'd say 3-4 more days min until 2nd tower floor is done :/

The rain can't be helping.

No, they've not even finished the 2nd tower floorplate yet ... 8 days after the first one was finished. Then they need to prepare the rebar and pour the concrete ... I'd say 3-4 more days min until 2nd tower floor is done :/

The rain can't be helping.

Forgot to add the rain to my estimate :lol:

What if they were working here in the North or in Scotland :ohno:

12 days for 1 floor is too slow :bash:

Hopefully they will speed up a bit soon when they get in the swing of things and finish off other work on the podium.

I spoke to DS today and amoungst other things asked when they think completion will be, stating to them that i am not bothered if it isn't finished until end 2010 as i have budgeted for this anyway having bought off plan before and knowing the current state of delays in Dubai.

I cant belive that they still think Sept 2009. :bash:

They must think i am a total C**t.

I am now taking bets on when DS will admit that 30th Sept is unrealistc to expect completion.

My money is on Tuesday 29th September 2009 at around 11:59 pm, and it will because of a powercut that occured that day, which is force majour as it is impossible to predict electricity supplies.

Apparantly the January update will be a bit special this month..........

I spoke to DS today and amoungst other things asked when they think completion will be, stating to them that i am not bothered if it isn't finished until end 2010 as i have budgeted for this anyway having bought off plan before and knowing the current state of delays in Dubai.

I cant belive that they still think Sept 2009. :bash:

They must think i am a total C**t.

I am now taking bets on when DS will admit that 30th Sept is unrealistc to expect completion.

My money is on Tuesday 29th September 2009 at around 11:59 pm, and it will because of a powercut that occured that day, which is force majour as it is impossible to predict electricity supplies.

Apparantly the January update will be a bit special this month..........

i had a similar conversation with them last week, where i said that i too was no longer bothered, as we're planning to buy something already available in the coming months, although i want to reserve my final outstanding 10% for a realistic date, rather than ending up with a pot of AED 1 or 2 years before the completion occurs. i said that it was now getting to the point where its offensive for them to tell people its Sept 09, which is just laughable, but yet, as they said over and over, [they] can assure me they will hit the deadline!

i can't understand why theyre taking this position and not coming clean?:weird:

i had a similar conversation with them last week, where i said that i too was no longer bothered, as we're planning to buy something already available in the coming months, although i want to reserve my final outstanding 10% for a realistic date, rather than ending up with a pot of AED 1 or 2 years before the completion occurs. i said that it was now getting to the point where its offensive for them to tell people its Sept 09, which is just laughable, but yet, as they said over and over, [they] can assure me they will hit the deadline!

i can't understand why theyre taking this position and not coming clean?:weird:

My best guess is that they have sought legal advice and been told "whatever happens dont move from Sept 2009".

If they admit now that they are delayed and then next january the world has a steel rebar shortgage they wont be able to claim Force Majuore if they have admitted a delay prior to the event.

Thats the way a lawyer would think.

No, they've not even finished the 2nd tower floorplate yet ... 8 days after the first one was finished. Then they need to prepare the rebar and pour the concrete ... I'd say 3-4 more days min until 2nd tower floor is done :/

The rain can't be helping.

^^Thanks Tractor. Thought I saw a concrete pump in one of the pics. Wishful thinking on my part:bash:

On closer inspection it might be a mast from a boat :clown:

My best guess is that they have sought legal advice and been told "whatever happens dont move from Sept 2009".

If they admit now that they are delayed and then next january the world has a steel rebar shortgage they wont be able to claim Force Majuore if they have admitted a delay prior to the event.

Thats the way a lawyer would think.

Steel Shortage would not come under a Force Majeure event in any country (not that it could happen any way).Bad Planning can't be claimed as such. May be they are expecting a hurricane :dunno:

Payment plans for late purchasers are more likely the reason :)

^^

Steel shortage will not be reason for Force Majeure but High Times is right on the money. They will claim project is on time until they can find the "right" reason for the delay and hence no penalty payments.

^^ Just to remind you guys, Select Property have issued written signed and legally binding letters stating that compensation will be paid from 31st Dec 08 and the reason for delay is not because of force majeure.

By the way it is possible for the Torch to be topped out in sept 09 so maybe this is what they refer to.

Apparantly the January update will be a bit special this month..........

My guess is that they will show the pool area (which we already saw) but perhaps they are also waiting to show photos from inside one of the apartments.

Just to offer a small ray of sunshine, since the 1st tower floor was poured there has been at least 2 holiday days (yesterday and last thurs I think) which you wouldn't have most of the time.

Yes yesterday was declared a public holiday for George Bush's visit.

Steel Shortage would not come under a Force Majeure event in any country (not that it could happen any way)


Thanks for reassuring me that the Global steel industry is in such good shape.

I will sleep a lot easier knowing that. :)


^^ Just to remind you guys, Select Property have issued written signed and legally binding letters stating that compensation will be paid from 31st Dec 08 and the reason for delay is not because of force majeure.

I appreciate this Steve, but that in itself does not mean that force majeure can not be claimed at a later date, and trust me a lawyer would find a way to backtrack on the letter that i have read.

Sorry, but i dont trust lawyers, my brother is a very succsessfull corporate lawyer, and i woudn't trust him as far as i can kick him. :ohno:

remember DS only admited delay beyond Dec 2008 because of the DCE board and pictures here from Imre....

Otherwise they would hve said end of 2008 as per contract :nuts:

And this board has now been removed ? I thought it was required to have such a man hours / safety board on display ?

Any ovehead photos of the Torch today. The swimming pool might be ready to use with all the rain and flooding today :lol:

EDIT by AltinD: Posting such staff is a BIG NO NO!

Quite a range in prices for the same 2 bed 1.4m to 2.6m ? What floors are they ?

a new email with a 3rd floor 2 bed seller getting cold feet or is he more realistic?

Interesting,

I think that the Torch is still one of the biggest and potentially most profitable buildings in the upper marina area (well i would wouldn't i !!). It is this potential that attracted the speculator in me.

Most of the supertalls were bought thinking that great views could be had from being up so high only to find that this area is now becoming one of the most densly built areas on earth.

I think once the old sales plot mystery is solved and Torch & Marina Heights investors know exactly what is going there as well as between the two towers. Units that still have views (argualble the best in the Marina looking right down the length of it), will certainly have a premium attached to them.

There are going to be so many units available come 2010-2012 in the Marina that the only thing that will seperate them which is out of the owners control will be the views from the unit. The build quality is much the same all over the Marina, (very average compared to UK), and so are the facilities, (a pool is a pool, a running machine is a running machine and a sauna is a hot place to sit and sweat).

I think the biggest single item which will distinguish appartments are the views it offers buyers or tennants.

I know people dont spend their life looking out of the window but it will definately seperate the wheat from the chaff.

EDIT by AltinD: Posting such staff is a BIG NO NO!


oops... sorry

Steve, the 2.6ish seller, is at a higher floor, marina facing, he goes by the name of Mr Bananas.

from all advertised you get the feeling that no consensus on TT market value has been reached, too much variation

HateTorch / Tractor;

Any Chance of an overhead photo please. :cheers:

Don't forget the two beds from about floor 29 upwards are a bit bigger, 1,270sq ft (net) as opposed to 1,128 sq ft (net).

but 2.6! is that not a bit much? with still another 2-3 year wait

hi all,

i'm new to this thread so excuse me if i say anything wrong.

i've just bought a one bed apartment in BC. i am looking to invest in a re-sale apartment in TT. Im looking at a two bed apartment 1265sq ft. The person selling to me wants near 1.5mill AED. Anyone able to suggest anything and if so anyone have the original launch price of TT.

Original price list from almost 3 years ago now !

1.5m would be a very cheap price now considering 3 years of compounded property inflation of at least 15% per annum. They should be asking for at least 1.8m.

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/3663/pricesiq0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

thanks for that steve. im thinking to buy only put off is the time delay. so you think the price is worth it?

^^ If you are looking for investment advice or oportunities, please look elsewhere and not in this forum. If you are interested in the construction process of the tower, then you are welcomed.

i am intrested in the progress of the tower. apologies to all offended, just wanted a bit of help?.

^^ No one was offended, just observing forum rules.

Just keep it down and not so obvious and everything would be ok. ;)

If this forum is Dubai, then Altin would be RERA.

delays in the build are a fact of life in Dubai. Steve is most properly right with his valuation, go for it

Steve is Always right, he knows his stuff...............Except of course when it comes to the Torch completion date :lol:

hi all,

i'm new to this thread so excuse me if i say anything wrong.

i've just bought a one bed apartment in BC. i am looking to invest in a re-sale apartment in TT. Im looking at a two bed apartment 1265sq ft. The person selling to me wants near 1.5mill AED. Anyone able to suggest anything and if so anyone have the original launch price of TT.

Hi Sheetz, and welcome to the forum.

Regardless of price, you need to consider where your potential unit is in the BUILDING, and what will be CONSTRUCTED in front of the Torch on the vacant CONSTRUCTION SITE.

Have a look here if i were you - http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=438699

I agree that Steve is one of the most knowledgebale people in here when it comes to prices with regard to property in Dubai. Good Luck :)

If this forum is Dubai, then Altin would be RERA.

And you would be 7Days's "Letter to editor" page. :D

^^ :lol: spot on.

18/January/2008

The Torch

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/7352/imresolt083lz3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/1976/imresolt090sn0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2633/imresolt117ss6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/8039/imresolt118bu7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3210/imresolt125ik4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8279/imresolt127lg9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9820/imresolt134au7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Nice pictures Imre and it's nice to see the blue sky again.

my God we have a very long wait:ohno:

till 2012 ....maybe more maybe less

Will they pour the core and the floors at the same time then ? Is this what they call double slip form ?

I thought double is 2 floors at a time.

Thanks for the pic update Imre, always appreciated.

Is Marina Pinnacle on steriods or what ?

Will they pour the core and the floors at the same time then ? Is this what they call double slip form ?

From here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slipform

and here:
http://www.diva-portal.org/diva/getDocument?urn_nbn_no_ntnu_diva-42-1__fulltext.pdf

I think it is a way to reduce the amount friction, thereby reducing cracks and using less force to lift the rig.

:nuts:

Hate Torch,

Where are you, I miss your views man.

:badnews:

i second that, signed a petition to force Hate Torch in to action:lol:

almost 2 months since SP last construction update..
they are disgraceful.

21 January 2008
DUBAI - Forty per cent or Dh587.7 billion ($160 billion) of the current Dh1.5 trillion ($400 billion) worth of real-estate projects in Dubai have been "temporarily suspended" due to the default in payment for the increasing prices of core building materials.

This according to Rakaa Properties, the investment arm of Riyadh-based Rakaa Holding, which stressed that higher costs had caused a "severe crunch" on the construction industry and which could increase inflation, create an economic slowdown and, eventually, an investment collapse.

It said the current prices of cement in the UAE are from Dh290-300 per tonne, up from Dh260 and Dh275 several months ago.

The price of steel climbed 27 per cent to Dh3,050 per tonne from Dh2,400 per tonne within two months, creating a default in payment for purchases by a number of real estate projects.

There were also price increases on foodstuff in less than a year, with a 20 per cent rise on bread and rice, 10 per cent on dairy products, 17 per cent on juices and 42 per cent on fuel. Rakaa, which also has operations in the UAE, Sudan and the US, quoted "some developers" and published data saying that the value of land transactions in Dubai jumped 70 per cent last year, with sales and mortgages rising 142 per cent and 40 per cent respectively.

Dr Abdulrahman Al Tassan, CEO of Rakaa Property, said this was due to the "flurry of new multibillion mega projects" that jack up the cost of construction materials, with some developers having to book orders several months in advance.

© Khaleej Times 2008

Does the Torch represent 40% of the UAE's construction projects or did you just randomly pick a thread for your re-post? :dunno:

I had an email about a new update but I am travelling. Can someone load it please?

Welcome to the first of your 2008 Torch construction updates, detailing activity on the site over the past 6 weeks.

http://www.selectproperty.com/regions/dubai/the-torch/resources/images/100_0623_large.JPG

These pictures taken in January show The Torch podium is now fully complete, with the underground parking all finished, including plumbing.

http://www.selectproperty.com/regions/dubai/the-torch/resources/images/100_0624_large.JPG


Over the past week, the first sections of the table form work have been put into place for the Health deck, which is the first tower section above the podium deck. The columns have been cast ready to the support of the health deck which will be cast in the next few weeks.

http://www.selectproperty.com/regions/dubai/the-torch/resources/images/100_0625_large.JPG

The on-site construction office for the torch will be moved into the tower to save material storage space. Currently all the materials are stored in front of the plot. Next, the tall yellow mobile cranes will move materials to the top of the podium so that the tower cranes can lift straight from the podium, building the residential floors as efficiently as possible.

http://www.selectproperty.com/regions/dubai/the-torch/resources/images/100_0626_large.JPG

http://www.selectproperty.com/regions/dubai/the-torch/resources/images/100_0628_large.JPG

http://www.selectproperty.com/regions/dubai/the-torch/resources/images/100_0631_large.JPG

http://www.selectproperty.com/regions/dubai/the-torch/resources/images/Torch1_Jan08_large.JPG

http://www.selectproperty.com/regions/dubai/the-torch/resources/images/Torch2_Jan08_large.JPG

http://www.selectproperty.com/regions/dubai/the-torch/resources/images/Torch3_Jan08_large.JPG

Apparantly the January update will be a bit special this month..........

I see nothing special. Imre, Hate Torch and Tractor provided much better updates.

Where are you Tractor and Hate Torch? :cry: :cry: :cry:

At least I have Steve and Foxy's money to look forward too. :)

Oh I see, they washed the Car. :lol:

Quote from the SP construction update:-
""The columns have been cast ready to the support of the health deck which will be cast in the next few weeks""

Presumably the "columns" are the core which doesn't seem to have moved for a while - and why will the health deck be cast in the "next few weeks" - why not today, - or latest tomorrow??!!! I thought we were about to see this tower take off at 1 floor every 4.5 days or something similar?

I see nothing special. Imre, Hate Torch and Tractor provided much better updates.

Where are you Tractor and Hate Torch? :cry: :cry: :cry:

At least I have Steve and Foxy's money to look forward too. :)

^^ Agree- Can't see why they couldn't have taken some pictures from the podium. They are the developer FFS surely they have access !! :bash:

I have mentioned this before but if anyone with clear view of the Torch plot is happy to host a webcam I am willing to buy one for them. I am sure a few other investors will also "donate" towards the internet connection.
It dosen't have to stream, a refresh every hour would be more then enough.

A

These pictures taken in January show The Torch podium is now fully complete, with the underground parking all finished, including plumbing.

^^Guess thats it folks, not very pretty but they say they are finished so like it or lump it :lol:

Of course they could just be lying again and they will fit the ventilation, permanent lighting, cladding etc.

Oh and the price increase thingy. That could be a problem for the Torch because they fixed prices with their "strategic partner". If the partner now feels it has gone outside the boundaries of the partnership they may not want to be a partner anymore as they would be working for nothing or even worse, paying DS for the privilege of being a partner...if you follow what I'm saying.

I see nothing special. Imre, Hate Torch and Tractor provided much better updates.

Where are you Tractor and Hate Torch? :cry: :cry: :cry:

At least I have Steve and Foxy's money to look forward too. :)

Mackie, I totally agree.

Nothing special at all about this update.

As you say the DS updates are actually quite pointless thanks to Imre, Tractor and Hate Torch.

I think DS should put you guys on the payroll for your excelent work.

Oh and the price increase thingy. That could be a problem for the Torch because they fixed prices with their "strategic partner". If the partner now feels it has gone outside the boundaries of the partnership they may not want to be a partner anymore as they would be working for nothing or even worse, paying DS for the privilege of being a partner...if you follow what I'm saying.

Here's an article that was posted by TheDubaiGuys (whatever happened to them ?) back in April 2006. See the bit I've highlighted:

from construction weekly...it says its 360m...not sure if it includes the bit at the top though...

Saturday, 1 April, 2006
Piling into work on 360m Torch Tower
by Zoe Naylor

Piling and work underway in Dubai Marina on what will be one of the tallest residential towers in the world.
Dubai has earned the well-deserved moniker of ‘the city of superlatives’ — and the new US $191 million (AED700 million) Torch Tower, which is currently under construction in Dubai Marina, is no exception. When complete, the 360m-high superstructure will be one of the tallest new residential buildings in the world.

And a tower project such as this demands a range of cutting edge construction techniques, especially in the design stages. From the piling and ultra high-strength concrete, right through to a tower crane-mounted web cam to show overseas customers up-to-date progress of construction, the project team is aiming to deliver maximum quality in the minimum amount of time.

Dubai Civil Engineering (DCE) is the main contractor on the job, with National Engineering Bureau (NEB) as the design consultant, developing the original architectural concept from Khatib & Alami (K&A). Zublin Ground & Civil Engineering is the contractor for the piling and shoring works. The firm started work on site in February, and is nearing completion of its package.

“The secant pile wall is formed using a continuous 90cm diameter pile, incorporating an ‘over-cutting’ technique. This pile wall includes a three-layer anchor system to withstand the earth and water pressures,” says Holgar Wolfle, the project manager for Zublin. The main structure foundation piles are driven into the ground to a depth of 50m and have been re-designed to incorporate larger diameter piles under the central core spine, where the greatest pressure exists, to increase the stability of the structure.

According to Wolfle, on three sides of the site the shoring system is already finished with only the anchor layer still to be installed. The remaining side, which completes the shoring system, will be formed using a 1.2m-diameter pile that does not require any anchors. “After we’ve finished the shoring works, we will start the excavation and then the dewatering,” adds Wolfe. The rest of the dewatering will go down below the final excavation depth. “We are not lowering the water table outside of the site, only inside.”

Main contractors DCE will take over as soon as Zublin finishes the piling. “We’re looking to come in around August or September 2006,” says Venu Menon, project director, DCE. “We will start off by cutting the piles and doing the excavation for the four basement floors,” he adds.

The tower will comprise four basements plus a further four floors above the ground — a total of eight floors for car parking. Above these will be the leisure deck, with the residential area beginning on floor six. There also will be access to the roof to allow residents a panoramic view of the skyline. “The four basement floors, the parking floors and the leisure deck will each take up an area of around 3400m2 per floor. Once we start the residential units, this will decrease to around 1100m2 per floor,” says Menon.

The building will then be brought up gradually using slip form formwork, provided by DCE, to cast the floors. “DCE has an in-house slip form division which will be slipping the core,” explains Menon, “and we will always be three to four floors ahead of the slab.” The concrete for the floor slab will be 4m thick. All the slabs will be post-tensioned, again by DCE — the company was in fact one of the first to bring post-tensioning to the UAE market.

“We’ve done around 150 towers in Dubai and Sharjah — in Dubai Marina last year we handled over eight towers, and we currently have another seven in various stages of completion,” says Menon. He says that all DCE jobs use post-tensioned flat slabs. “This has the definite advantage of not having any drop beams, which makes life easier for the mechanical services, and speeds up the job.”

One of the most striking features of the tower (and the one that gives it its name) is the large LED display, which will be installed at the top of the building. The fully programmable iconic screen is likely to measure 30 to 40m in length, with the display being formed into a flame-shaped poly-carbon structure at the top of the tower. “This could be used as an artistic decoration feature, which could be displayed on the screen,” explains David Mullen, project manager at Dubai Select (the project’s developer).

A building of this height demands very high-strength concrete. “Tall structures will have a certain degree of movement nearing the top and it is normal to expect lateral sway of around 30cm in structures of this height. “In the floor sections we will be using 60-Newton concrete, and in some of the lower columns, 100 Newtons; but typically the building will be around 80 Newtons,” says Mullen.

Cladding on the building will be a mixture of aluminium and glass and will be provided by DCE. “The lead time now for glass is about 12 weeks,” says Menon. “We have a licence to use an American profile and we buy the glass locally. “But aluminium is no problem since we have our own extrusion factory in Dubai Investments Park,” he adds.

“There are very few things we don’t do in-house, but one is readymix,” admits Menon. “We buy this from firms such as RMC and Unimix.” He says that tower projects demand one readymix supplier right from the beginning: “After eight or 10 floors you need to have a hydraulic placing boom and a stationary pump. And the supplier of this boom and pump won’t allow any other supplier to pump concrete through their equipment.”

Despite the plot’s location slap bang in the heart of Dubai Marina, Menon says that he is not anticipating any problems with delivery of materials: “Three sides of this site are surrounded by an asphalted road. And once the parking floors are built, we’ll use them as a storage area for all the finishing materials to help maximise space.”

In a bold manouevre, Dubai Select pre-agreed a contract price — around US $191 million (AED700 million) — with DCE at the start of the project. “We’ve guaranteed a maximum price we’re going to pay DCE, and we believe we’re the first to do that in the UAE,” says Mullen. But what happens if the price of steel, for example, shoots up again? Not a problem, according to Menon: “We have arrangements in place if there are substantial price increases,” he says. “Rebar is a potential problem, as we used to source it from a factory, but now we’ve set up our own facility in Jebel Ali, which will go into production in a month’s time.”

While DCE appears to have most bases covered thanks to its sizeable in-house capabilities, Dubai Select has decided to add a high-tech touch to the project by making use of web cam technology to show its Torch Tower customers what stage construction is at. “Around 80% of the tower has already been sold, mainly to customers in the UK, so we decided to install a web cam on site, so people can access the project wherever they may be,” explains Mullen. “It is new for our customers, and as far as we know it’s new for Dubai. We’re going to move the web cam around the site, so people can see the entire construction process,” he adds.

The quality of the construction process will come under close scrutiny via a long-term facilities management (FM) programme that has been devised by Dubai Select. “We’re already looking at the maintenance of the block and have devised a 10 to 20-year facilities management programme, which will include checking the post-tensioning for the concrete and looking at the fixing points,” explains Mullen. “We have around 30 contractors in line for the FM contract with bids due back in the next few weeks.” Although the FM award won’t be made until after the first year of maintenance from DCE, Mullen says it’s important to get the procedures in place now. “Look around and you’ll see we’re in a very dynamic market — contractors are over-stretched, and if you don’t get them signed up in advance there may not be any available.”

When the building is completed it is likely to be another landmark in the city of Dubai, according to Adnan Rahhal, project manager at NEB. “It’s going to be a unique tower in terms of its shape, height and location,” he says. “There aren’t many towers above the 50-floor mark in this area.” And judging by the fact that Torch Tower is already 80% sold, it would appear that Dubai’s construction flame is in little danger of blowing out just yet.

^^“It’s going to be a unique tower in terms of its shape, height and location,” he says. “There aren’t many towers above the 50-floor mark in this area.”:lol::ohno:

Rather like the tranquil, peaceful, "uninhabited" lifestyle surrounding the serenity of the The World. Or least until last Sunday.

I remember reading this in an article on the web before i was a DS investor, and was unsure of it's validity then.

IF DS did this pre agreed deal with DCE, then it could prove to be very costly for the later.

Personaly i can not see why any organisation would work this way. Which effectively puts a cieling on the amount of profit in a job whilst at the same time does not limit their exposure to loss on the same job as the variables involved are largely outside of DCE's control. I cant understand what leverage DS would have had over DCE to negotiate this kind of contract.

If this situation is correct then even the harshest DS critic would have to admit it was an excellent move on their part.

I remember reading this in an article on the web before i was a DS investor, and was unsure of it's validity then.

IF DS did this pre agreed deal with DCE, then it could prove to be very costly for the later.

Personaly i can not see why any organisation would work this way. Which effectively puts a cieling on the amount of profit in a job whilst at the same time does not limit their exposure to loss on the same job as the variables involved are largely outside of DCE's control. I cant understand what leverage DS would have had over DCE to negotiate this kind of contract.

If this situation is correct then even the harshest DS critic would have to admit it was an excellent move on their part.
If delivery date was also fixed then I agree it to be a smart move. However, I remain concerned about DS which is, let's have no doubts about it, an inexperienced large scale developer. My other concern is with DCE and this particular project. Normally, if the terms are stacked against a deliverer then that deliverer shall choose his own terms as regards what to deliver and when.
As regards investment in The Torch, I feel that whilst Torch psf prices may move up over next 18 months to 2 years, I'd doubt they will do as well as most other developments which are better financed and organised.
:ohno:

Here's an article that was posted by TheDubaiGuys (whatever happened to them ?) back in April 2006. See the bit I've highlighted:

.............................
In a bold manouevre, Dubai Select pre-agreed a contract price — around US $191 million (AED700 million) — with DCE at the start of the project. “We’ve guaranteed a maximum price we’re going to pay DCE, and we believe we’re the first to do that in the UAE,” says Mullen. But what happens if the price of steel, for example, shoots up again? Not a problem, according to Menon: “We have arrangements in place if there are substantial price increases,” he says. “Rebar is a potential problem, as we used to source it from a factory, but now we’ve set up our own facility in Jebel Ali, which will go into production in a month’s time.”



Still doesn't work Morris. The factory they refer to takes the steel rods and cuts and bends them to the length and shape given in the rebar schedules. It still has to buy the rebar rods in the usual 12m stock lengths. The factory is at the mercy of the stock price of this basic construction commodity. The price of rebar steel has shot up all over the world in the last week. This is not unique to Dubai, we are also suffering in the UK from these price hikes after tenders have been awarded.

If DCE can no longer build the structure and remain in profit, they are likely to suspend the works on a force majeure basis and seek a renegotiation of the rates or simply sit and wait until the price comes back down. They are a commercial organisation first and foremost. There is also no shortage of work in Dubai therefore determination of a loss making contract is an attractive option for them.

Watch this space!

Yes it does work True Blue and you know that. There is a facility in the fixed price agreement for it to be amended to take into account any substantial price increases in materials - DS and also DCE are not as stupid as you're trying to make out. Like you rightly say, they will "seek a renegotiation of the rates". Which is exactly why I posted the article in reply to your earlier post which seemed to be trying to mislead the less informed on this thread that the fixed price contract was a problem. Here's what you said:

"Oh and the price increase thingy. That could be a problem for the Torch because they fixed prices with their "strategic partner". If the partner now feels it has gone outside the boundaries of the partnership they may not want to be a partner anymore as they would be working for nothing or even worse, paying DS for the privilege of being a partner...if you follow what I'm saying."

So you've now answered the concern you raised yourself........ many thanks.

As regards investment in The Torch, I feel that whilst Torch psf prices may move up over next 18 months to 2 years, I'd doubt they will do as well as most other developments which are better financed and organised.
:ohno:

In my opinion the price psf increase of a development has nothing to do with how a development is financed and organised.

It is dependent on the end product that is delivered in terms of quality of workmanship, materials, design, and facilities.

Not to mention the three L's

There is also no shortage of work in Dubai therefore determination of a loss making contract is an attractive option for them.

Ever heard of being sued for breach of contract ?? :ohno:

However, I remain concerned about DS which is, let's have no doubts about it, an inexperienced large scale developer.

So I take it you're also similarly concerned about Damac then ?

So I take it you're also similarly concerned about Damac then ?

Maybe, maybe...if I don't get a reasonable return on my investment. :cheers:

I'd be a really happy man if I'd bought in a building now nearly finished - apparently in the best location in the marina. I wouldn't be wasting my time worrying about what was happening up in the tallest block; I'd be sitting on my laurels drinking gin on my balcony with a very satisfied grin on my face; ........... unless of course - in reality - I wasn't quite so happy about my lot, then I might be tempted to be bitter, and I might even have a go at all those blighters who'd waited and bought up there. Most of them aren't worried about when their places are delivered anyway, especially if they had the cash. Psf going up - faster than most investments they could have made, nice clean air up that end; - and who cares about the view. Doesn't really matter when they're going to at the very least have a view of one of the top ten tallest residential buildings in the World. That's gotta be good for the rent. What a waste to be bitter when you have all that knowledge. Better just to be ignorant and bitter - surely!

Ever heard of being sued for breach of contract ?? :ohno:

Remember the Dubai factor.

You may be right Morris, I am probably being carried away with my own paranoia. Hope so!

Main Entry: para·noia
Function: noun
Pronunciation: "par-&-'no i-&
Etymology: New Latin, from Greek, madness, from paranous demented, from para- + nous mind
1 : a psychosis characterized by systematized delusions of persecution or grandeur usually without hallucinations
2 : a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others

Remember the Dubai factor.

You may be right Morris, I am probably being carried away with my own paranoia. Hope so!

Main Entry: para·noia
Function: noun
Pronunciation: "par-&-'no i-&
Etymology: New Latin, from Greek, madness, from paranous demented, from para- + nous mind
1 : a psychosis characterized by systematized delusions of persecution or grandeur usually without hallucinations
2 : a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others

Have you been on the Glenmorangie again tonight ?? Or is it Isle of Jura ?? :lol::lol::lol:

Do you have spies in the Dubai duty free? I bought Glenmorangie Burgundy and Sherry wood finish.

^^ There I go being paranoid again :lol:

If delivery date was also fixed then I agree it to be a smart move. However, I remain concerned about DS which is, let's have no doubts about it, an inexperienced large scale developer. My other concern is with DCE and this particular project. Normally, if the terms are stacked against a deliverer then that deliverer shall choose his own terms as regards what to deliver and when.
As regards investment in The Torch, I feel that whilst Torch psf prices may move up over next 18 months to 2 years, I'd doubt they will do as well as most other developments which are better financed and organised.
:ohno:


now calm down, accuse DS of all you want, but don't call them disorganized.

I get really worried when Morris and TB are friends.

I wish it was as simple as you think Morris but let us not make anybody loose anymore sleep over events that might or might not take place. :cheers:

MULTIPLEX build Wembley on fixed price contract. They were forced to pay from their pocket some 100 - 200M dollars and the project was delayed ... you know better then me how long.

^^ They also paid fines of £120,000 per day for breaching contract even though they claim there were 600 design changes during construction!

^^ They also paid fines of £120,000 per day for breaching contract even though they claim there were 600 design changes during construction!

They don't pay the money, it is deducted from payments due to them. Multiplex will go on to arbitration or litigation once they have put their case together. These disputes can run forever.

^^

Win Win for the lawyers............ again

Like its never win-win for some lawyers!

Hello

I wonder if someone can provide a translation of the Real Estate Regulatory Authority (RERA) into English, as I got a copy in Arabic!

Goshy

@Tractor;

What is the latest here?

Tractor, we are all eager to know if they are going to manage more than 1 floor in a month. Your help is appreciated.

ds bollocks , 1 floor a week my arse , bollocks bastards ds, 2009 completion bullshit.

sorry had to take my anger out. considering its sunday and member services closed.

any news on the construction?

Have got a meeting tomorrow to discuss construction update - unfortunately not with the construction manager as he is too busy to meet with unhappy clients - not sure exactly what he is busy doing as it certainly does not appear to be construction!

Remember that construction is not at the stage where 1 floor per week could be achieved yet. Finalising work on the podium is required as well as preparations for the main core and floor plates. I think they will get into the swing of things within the next 6 to 8 weeks and only then we could see 1 floor every 1 to 2 weeks or start to judge the construction speed.

@ The Beckhams;

I hope your time is not wasted, please try to get some solid facts about numbers and compensation. I doubt if you will get any decent answers if you are meeting sales people or even the office manager (he was the guy who sold us the marina view apartments before getting promoted). It is worth a try to press them for some answers.

@ Steve;

Mate, what other excuses are we going to give them? Others have managed 3 / 4 day cycles per floor. The speed and efficiency of this project is one of the worst in that region. It is time for delivering, enough excuses please.

6 more weeks please then I will start my international slating campaign if speed is still slow. I might even consider buying at The Jewels if this carrys on. :lol:

OK, I will hold you to that :cheers:

Remember that construction is not at the stage where 1 floor per week could be achieved yet. Finalising work on the podium is required as well as preparations for the main core and floor plates. I think they will get into the swing of things within the next 6 to 8 weeks and only then we could see 1 floor every 1 to 2 weeks or start to judge the construction speed.

This sums up what I have been saying for a while now. They are incapable of doing more than 1 thing at a time. To say that they can't get on with the core or the floor plates because they are still finalising the podium is nonsense. The core and floor plates are on the critical path so must not be stopped or it will add to the delay.

Enough is enough Steve, DS stated in their last update that the podium was complete. Which is it?

Investors are entitled to some answers here so they can start planning their future.

But surely DCE are building the bloody thing not DS so what the fxxx are DCE playing at. I do tend to agree with you TB (now this is getting worrying :lol:). In fact I thought they would leave the leisure deck ie. swimming pool etc. until maybe 12 months time as they could use the space on the podium for storage and perhaps not have the swimming pool and other paraphanalia getting in the way. In any event I would have thought that the residential floors could still be moving upwards whilst other workers attend to the leisure deck.
Perhaps they've got to tile and paint the swimming pool, fill it with water and have the UAE Ladies Olympic Synchronised swimming team test it out before any more floors are built. :lol:

I too am disapointed with the progress overall with the Torch.

Lets just put it into a bit of perspective though.

Revised contractual completion date is Sept 09.

Standard delay in Dubai at present is 6-9 months.

If you factor in the latest problems with labour shortages and the rising price of goats milk in the Emirate then within a year a 12 month delay becomes the standard.

So September 2010 is a realitic completion date in my mind. This is more than achievable even at the current slow pace.

I agree that it would be nice for everything to finish on time and go according to the sales peoples ambitious targets, but lets be realists not idealists.

Anything earlier than Sept 2010 is a bonus

I'm looking to March 2012 as likely hand-over of keys. There's soooooooo much to do here. And Christ knows when BC is going to be ready, they haven't even finished the excavation yet, let alone started the bearing piles.

IS THER A NEW MALL BEING BUILT EVENTUALLY BY THE TORCH/PINNACLE/LE REVE IF SO DOES ANYBODY HAVE DETAILS ?

^^

Do you mean Marina Arcade here - http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=535695

:ohno::ohno:

It just does not seem plausible that DS have meticulously covered all their angles guaranteeing the max cost of TT, the supply chain etc, then simply forgot to agree a penalty backed guaranteed timetable with DCE.

A delay in the completion date will certainly postpone rental income...
but now with construction in full swing, all torch owners are sure to rewarded with good capital appreciation :):):)

http://i29.tinypic.com/5mxp1s.jpg

^^

Do you mean Marina Arcade here - http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=535695

HT thanks - it looks a cool design and fits the area well -- who are the develepoers ?

http://i29.tinypic.com/29o4iud.jpg

http://i26.tinypic.com/2m6v1iv.jpg

http://i30.tinypic.com/2nw1st3.jpg

http://i28.tinypic.com/eajxxh.jpg

http://i29.tinypic.com/2r73i52.jpg

Thank you Scoot, I love you mor than Tractor :lol:

It's no trouble mate :lol:

Am I right in thinking that the Health Deck level i.e. the top of the podium is double height compared tot he rest of the residential foors? I suppose it would be in orderto accommodate gymns etc?

Has the floor of the first residential floor above the health deck been poured yet - it looks to me as though it has been?

Is that the formwork for the second residential floor just commencing? I would have thought it would be sensible to have the core a bit further ahead at this point - although it looks as though they might be pouring into the core in the photo?

http://i28.tinypic.com/eajxxh.jpg

What are all the little green people up to ?

It's no trouble mate :lol:

Many thanks Scoot. Great update.


Am I right in thinking that the Health Deck level i.e. the top of the podium is double height compared tot he rest of the residential foors? I suppose it would be in orderto accommodate gymns etc?

Has the floor of the first residential floor above the health deck been poured yet - it looks to me as though it has been?

Is that the formwork for the second residential floor just commencing? I would have thought it would be sensible to have the core a bit further ahead at this point - although it looks as though they might be pouring into the core in the photo?

The first residential floor would have been poured and cured before they started on the formwork for the second residential floor.

hooooorrray 1 floor a month, I knew they could do it....:nuts:

^^ I think they are on the third floor plate for the month if you consider the Health Deck floor plate poured on the 5th/6th.

That would be 3 floors in one month then and not at full speed yet as only getting started and organized. So 1 floor per week may be possible from feb / march.

That's the hope. I'll drink to that.:booze:

From Omaro (2 days ago)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/liver4eva/New%20SSC/2008/January/January%2029%20Marina/IMG_9341.jpg

That's the hope. I'll drink to that.:booze:

Let me tell you something my friend. Hope is a dangerous thing. Hope can drive a man insane. :lol:
(Courtesy of Red (Morgan Freeman) to Andy (Tim Ribbins) in the movie - the Shawshank Redemption)

And your point is ??

(Do you ever say anything worthwhile or do you only provide quotes from movies ?? )

01/February/2008

The Torch

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/8687/imresolt072me2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/5654/imresolt077xk8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/4956/imresolt105zp9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/7407/imresolt111yl0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Many thanks Imre;

As a favour, next time you post the torch photos, try to hide/erase princess tower. :cry: :cry:.

And your point is ??

(Do you ever say anything worthwhile or do you only provide quotes from movies ?? )

Well, the truth my friend is obvious and visible on the ground. "Hope would drive a man insane" sadly applies to this project and all other DS projects. Paying into a development fullfilling the contractal agreement without the developers living up to theirs would certainly drive me insane. Bay Central - a year on and still just sand. I certainly sleep well having withdrew interest in this project losing my deposit. My mistake was signing the reservation form without initially requesting to see a draft copy of the contract. Thank heavens, No need for "hope" here. The TORCH with promise of 24hour construction and all other "hope" optimizing statements from last year and still .. well, the pictures sum it all up. Nothing would change here and not in this decade. Was glad to read you mention that delivery is now 2012. Thats, 2005 - 2012, :bash: Have a fab weekend.

Not in Dubai atm, hence lack of info/photos from me ... looks like 2 towers floors complete and they are preparing the 3rd right now.

You got it right Morris - he never says anything worthwhile, and now he regrets that he withdrew; - that's coming through loud and clear!!

LOOKS THAT WAY I HOPE THEY WILL BE ON FOURTH/FIFTH FLOOR WHEN I GET THER ON 14TH FEB - WHAT INFRASTRUCTURE CAN THEY START ON ONCE THEY HAVE FINISHED EACH FLOOR OR DO THEY HAVE TO FINISH THE ALL RESIDENTIAL FLORS BEFORE ANY FITTING OUT TAKES PLACE ?

Are you guys looking at the same photos I am looking at?

I still love you Tractor but not as much as Imre and Scoot at the moment :lol:

Hurry back, you can’t see well from that far :)

Many thanks Imre;

As a favour, next time you post the torch photos, try to hide/erase princess tower. :cry: :cry:.

In fairness I still think the torch is ahead. All that's happening with princess tower is the core's getting taller

I agree, princess is behind the torch and was launched way back in Nov 04, earlier than the torch.

However ocean heights is catching up with the Torch now ! :nuts:

Have another look at Princess Tower thread in details !

As TB mentioned before, the core is on the critical path of the construction programme and you can clearly see the effect the lack of progress on the Torch Core will have on general progress. :ohno:

^^ One of the reasons Princess got delayed was because they changed the construction technique from steel to concrete and that equals to a TOTAL redesign, as far as structural engineering is concerned.

^^ Do you want to sell one of your units to me ? I am looking for another marina facing :D

All or nothing baby @ AED 1500/sqft :banana:

Send me a PM before we get our behind kicked by our nice Mod:)

I do still think princess tower will be built quicker than the torch, was only saying they're about equal now. 23 marina is ahead of them all anyway

All or nothing baby @ AED 1500/sqft :banana:

Send me a PM before we get our behind kicked by our nice Mod:)


I doubt Steve is really looking for a second "marina" view unit, he's just teasing and trying to squeeze a below-market price, based on your "frustration" with the lack of construction speed on the building. :laugh:

All or nothing baby @ AED 1500/sqft :banana:

Send me a PM before we get our behind kicked by our nice Mod:)

^^ Looking at what is being talked about on the MP thread I don't think you need to worry about your behind. The thread is buzzing with Dirhams and square footage !

Not in Dubai atm, hence lack of info/photos from me ... looks like 2 towers floors complete and they are preparing the 3rd right now.

I dont think so Tractor,

I have a Cross sectional architects drawing of the Torch and it looks to me like the first actual tower floor is double height. So that would make them ready to pour the 1st residential floorplate now,

Not trying to split hairs but not sure if everyone realised this. :)



As a favour, next time you post the torch photos, try to hide/erase princess tower. :cry: :cry:.

http://i32.tinypic.com/20awk7d.jpg

I dont think so Tractor,

I have a Cross sectional architects drawing of the Torch and it looks to me like the first actual tower floor is double height. So that would make them ready to pour the 1st residential floorplate now,

Not trying to split hairs but not sure if everyone realised this. :)





http://i28.tinypic.com/vxc654.jpg

^^Admire your skills HT but that red arrow of yours would make it triple height don't you think ?

I agree Anjam it looks decieving but from the drawings i have it looks like the fiinished podium floor we see now is not the finished floor as it will be raised by about half a floor height to accomadate the pool depth. ( I think).

If you look back a couple of pages i posted a pic with the pool highlighted on the podium floor. This somehow needs to be made deeper by 2 meters or so or we will only have a paddling pool to play in.

I dont think i have explained that very well. :nuts:

I will try and convert the drawing i have to a jpeg in the office next week and upload it :)

Also if you zoom into Imre's pic i used it looks like the yellow floor shuttering is ready for the pour and this is being held up bu supports ontop of supports and not a floor as it may appear.

I also think that the podium floor heights are a bit smaller than the residential floor heights so could be decieving to the eye.

I may of course be completely wrong and therefore talking an absolute load of Bollox.

I dont think so Tractor,

I have a Cross sectional architects drawing of the Torch and it looks to me like the first actual tower floor is double height. So that would make them ready to pour the 1st residential floorplate now,

Not trying to split hairs but not sure if everyone realised this. :)





http://i28.tinypic.com/vxc654.jpg

^^ I just noticed that the core has risen since the last update by scoot:banana:

I agree Anjam it looks decieving but from the drawings i have it looks like the fiinished podium floor we see now is not the finished floor as it will be raised by about half a floor height to accomadate the pool depth. ( I think).



^^ Makes sense :yes: IIRC there was rebar poking out from the pool outline in Tractor's picture. I assumed the pool would be above ground level but what you say makes more sense.
Anyway 2 floors or 3 whats the difference when there is more than friggin 80 to go:bash:

I doubt Steve is really looking for a second "marina" view unit, he's just teasing and trying to squeeze a below-market price, based on your "frustration" with the lack of construction speed on the building. :laugh:

Always looking to buy below market price baby :banana: but actually I do want a 2nd unit because I want to sell one for profit and keep the other to live in.

@Altin;

I am glad I am not the only one who thinks that he is a Cheeky Boy :banana:

^^ Did you buy that below market price unit I told you about the other week ? :D

Oh, S***. He is also clever not just cheeky :lol:

Was this a pure guess or did you have inside information? :cheers:

2 weeks and you'll have some better pictures ;)

Great thanks Tractor.

Where is HateTorch I miss his over head photos :(

^^I think he has delegated to Scoot :)

Great thanks Tractor.

Where is HateTorch I miss his over head photos :(

DS rewarded him to shift to a 9 bed villa in the Palms. All his rentals & fee paid, until anticipation completion of TORCH. :lol:

I see the formwork for the "February" floor is coming along well.

^^ :bash: can someone feed some more seagulls outside the jewels please. :lol:

^^ :bash: can someone feed some more seagulls outside the jewels please. :lol:

you can find him front of the Bayside and Time Place ,feeds every morning, maybe can do this job afternoon near the Jewels:)

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/175/imresolt043dl2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Are there 4 basement floors of car parking or 3 ?? I'm sure the original design was only 3 and I was never sure whether this was increased to 4 or not following the re-design. Perhaps you can look at your drawings High Times and let me know, many thanks.

^^

Morris, its hard to tell from the drawing what the floors will be used for but on the plans it looks like this

4 floors below ground, i would imagine that these are basement parking.

Then there is the double height entrance floor.

Then 2 more single height floors.

Then the pool deck and gym floor double height.

Hope this helps. :)

Many thanks High Times. I've spent ages looking for the Torch construction board and just found it on the first page of this thread..........the only place I didn't look:

http://i25.tinypic.com/mt6wyt.jpg

Yes shows there are 4 basement levels. So layout will be:

x 4 basement levels
x 1 ground level
x 4 podium levels
x 1 health centre
x 4 service levels (not sure about this they obviously wouldn't be right after the health centre perhaps they mean in total in the tower ??)
x 72 residential floors.

So overall 86 floor tower with 82 floors above ground.

With 9 floors for parking. :banana:

^^ Yes, 4 service levels will be distributed throughout the tower.

^^

Floors 24 & 25 are service floors, Also 51 & 52 and maybe two above the penthouses aswell although these maybe linked to the LED display on the roof.

Although these floors may not be numbered in this way so dont worry if you have bought in any of these floors

Hi everybody, it's been a long time, too long.

We're really looking forward to going to Dubai in a few months (August 2008) to celebrate the handover of the keys to our new apartment in The Torch, delivered on schedule as resolutely promised!

Is anyone on for a big Torch welcome party? Nazzy? Morrismarina? Let us know, we are really keen to meet everyone! Maybe the observer's deck on the 80th floor?

yeeharr!

(p.s. might invite everyone for drinks out on our big balcony afterwards...)

:lol: Scooby is back!

I am afraid we will have to make it a pool party instead (bring your own water) or perhaps an underground rave in the car park :D

I suggest any time Friday or any evening, so there are no workers to get in the way.

:lol: Scooby is back!

From the Priory Clinic ?

Wow......Scooby, good to hear from you. How did the lawsuit go with SP, did you win ??? Or did the Judge sanction you under Section 57 of the Mental Health Act. :lol:

Now that Scooby is back, I am out of here. Where is Naz.............Naaaaaaaaaaaz :runaway:

Can't make it to the party, washing my hair that month.

Shame, you'll miss Scooby serenading us from his massive balcony. :lol:

So Cool,however Dubai has got even better projects :D

Have got a meeting tomorrow to discuss construction update - unfortunately not with the construction manager as he is too busy to meet with unhappy clients - not sure exactly what he is busy doing as it certainly does not appear to be construction!

Victoria and David have gone quite!

Do you think the depression is just setting in? :dunno:

Does anyone know if the "February" floor has been completed yet ?

Who's Scooby?

Does anyone know if the "February" floor has been completed yet ?

^^Shouldn't be a problem Steve, it's a leap year so they get an extra day to do it!

well its progrssing, but they dont seem to be in any hurry.

according to the site saftey board it should be done Saturday September 5th 2009.

which doesnt look likely at the current rate.

Hello everybody

Me again! Any help regarding RERA document? I need just few lines to be translated into English from Arabic.

Any idea of what the document says?

Thanks

Goshy

Why not ask Bizzybonita on this forum.

He has an uncanny knack of translating Arabic/English into a completely incoherant form of jaberwocky.

Something that lwyers get paid a fortune to do.

Bizzy only pretends to speak Arabic and uses google translator instead :D

Hello everybody

Me again! Any help regarding RERA document? I need just few lines to be translated into English from Arabic.

Any idea of what the document says?

Thanks

Goshy

What document? I can translate it for you....

so every month project released from nakheel , and i see her is floor every month ..that's make sense

Why not ask Bizzybonita on this forum.

He has an uncanny knack of translating Arabic/English into a completely incoherant form of jaberwocky.

Something that lwyers get paid a fortune to do.

:lol: man come on

Bizzy only pretends to speak Arabic and uses google translator instead :D

heeya bro :lol: it's help many times:D

so every month project released from nakheel , and i see her is floor every month ..that's make sense

ah now that she is floor every month, they are building the real big are aren't they :drunk: :lol:

^^^^:drunk:

Bizzy only pretends to speak Arabic and uses google translator instead :D

I actually thought Bizzy spoke Arabic and used the google translator for his English posts. Google translator comes up with similar stuff.

google hu !!!not aol or yahoo

^^

You crack me up Bizzy. :lol:

and i luv chelsea fans :)

What document? I can translate it for you....


Hi "I love Dubai".

Thanks for considering my query. The document is related to the Escrow Arrangement in accordance with Dubai's new law no. 8, concerning Guarantee Accounts for Real Estate Developments in Dubai.

I made some researches and I found the full article about that (although I have to find out the translation of those particular lines).

If someone is interested in Escrow matter, I have attached some links, so you can see what I am talking about! (as I believe that someone of you received that document).

www.dubailand.gov.ae

http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/07/07/25/10141764.html

Thank you

bah! i wouldnt worry about legal documents, they can and have changed all pertaining laws at the drop of a hat.

lets not talk about RERA documents please, this is torch CONSTRUCTION thread.



Any news on consturction?

I am hoping they may have started the March floor ahead of time but we will need to wait for a photo update.

I am hoping they may have started the March floor ahead of time but we will need to wait for a photo update.

Steve, you are not really expecting the March floor before April are you ?

What floor is Morris on, I forgot. Is it August or September?:lol:

Good question, we need a big celebration on that month !

Enjoy your weekend in Dubai but keep the bird feed away from the Torch please :lol:

What floor is Morris on, I forgot. Is it August or September?:lol:

Going by the revised floor identifical system I'm on the October floor..........I'm hoping SP will actually be up to this floor by October.:lol:

What are we going to do when the December floor is complete, will we be naming the floors Q1, Q2, etc.....:lol:

Been a bit quiet here for a few days; - I hope it hasn't been this quiet on site. Can anyone tell us if further floor(s) have been poured in recent days?

I think True Blue is not happy with knocking down completed work on the Toch in his spare time to make it look like progress is slow, but he has now technilogocally advanced his program of negative propoganda to include deleting posts on the Torch thread too.

TB :hug: HT
:)

Last I heard, TB has paid off Imre to stop posting photos of the torch.

Imre is just being selfish, getting the keys to his new apartment, buying all new furniture and moving in. He is enjoying himself while we are here waiting, its not fair. :lol::lol::banana::banana:

Scoot> Help us out mate !

NEWS FLASH
February floor is poured and 2nd February floor is well under way.

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/592/imgp0960ph3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/4074/imgp0967ya8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Many thanks TB, I love you too more the Tractor (until he comes back) :lol:

Don't forget to let us know about the Jewels :cheers:

Looks like my £200 are almost in the bank. :banana:

Yes, many thanks TB. Can you tell us why they don't keep the core a bit further ahead of the rest of the tower construction? Most of the pictures of other towers show the core some way ahead. At the beginning of this one rising from the podium the flloor contruction seems almost held up by the core not going up quickly enough. I'm speaking as someone who knows nothing about these things you'll understand. Grateful for some knowledge?

Many thanks TB. :banana:

Many thanks TB, I love you too more the Tractor (until he comes back) :lol:

Don't forget to let us know about the Jewels :cheers:

Looks like my £200 are almost in the bank. :banana:

I would not be so sure of that £200 mackie :D I think a speed of 4 floors per month is achievable in a few weeks time.

Thanks TB, great to see some progress !

The Torch is really catching up with Princess :lol::lol:



http://i31.tinypic.com/1zxm9ty.jpg

Thanks for the update TB :cheers:
Not a very spectacular speed at the moment, but at least she's growing. :)

NEWS FLASH
February floor is poured and 2nd February floor is well under way.

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/592/imgp0960ph3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/4074/imgp0967ya8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Thanks TB :cheers:

At this rate we may get the April floor done in Feb:banana:

Yousuf: They seem to be pouring the core in the second picture but you are right it appears that the core team are holding up the floor team. They need a few jumps in quick succession.

Yes, many thanks TB. Can you tell us why they don't keep the core a bit further ahead of the rest of the tower construction? Most of the pictures of other towers show the core some way ahead. At the beginning of this one rising from the podium the flloor contruction seems almost held up by the core not going up quickly enough. I'm speaking as someone who knows nothing about these things you'll understand. Grateful for some knowledge?

I too am not highly qualified in the study of big concrete & steel tall things.

However it looks to me tht the strategy on the Torch seems to be complete as much as possible in tandem as so that the building grows as a whole instead of allowing the core to get to floor 30 before the podium is finished.

If this logic is applied throughout the rest of the build then it may be slow to reach the top but they may not be far behined in finishing the tower fully.

As an optomistic over achiever they could top out. switch the LED lights on the top and finish painting the penthouses on the same day. HAPPY DAYS. :banana:

Thanks for the update TB :cheers:
Not a very spectacular speed at the moment, but at least she's growing. :)

:lol: she's need guidance like princess :lol::lol:

thx True Blue, princess is really standing out already :)

an importnat question to torch investors:

i am an investor in the torch. Has Dubai select or the torch been APPROVED for finance by any dubai banks or mortgage lenders?

This is a very important issue as it has massive effect on resell values.

Most purchasers in dubai buy on finance from the banks or mortgage providers. (take this as fact)

I know that Mashreq have approved the Torch. I think there are now a few others also. Maybe someone can name them ?

an importnat question to torch investors:

i am an investor in the torch. Has Dubai select or the torch been APPROVED for finance by any dubai banks or mortgage lenders?

This is a very important issue as it has massive effect on resell values.

Most purchasers in dubai buy on finance from the banks or mortgage providers. (take this as fact)


I think 2 or 3 years from now when a lot of buildings will be ready, will be a different Dubai than the one you see today.

I see no reason why the Torch, or Dubai Select should not be favourites with lenders, as a company that introduced, Escrow before it became law.

As more regulation comes in that makes doing business in Dubai more secure, for the Developer and Investor, then more Western Banks will come on stream with Mortgage products, after all having burnt there fingers in the USA and Europe, they will be looking for pastures new.

Alan

Who told you most people in Dubai buy on finance? Where are the stats to prove this?

I know that Mashreq have approved the Torch. I think there are now a few others also. Maybe someone can name them ?

I was in Dubai over the weekend and met with a represantative from Mashreq bank. i had been communicating with them by email for the weeks prior to my trip, where they confirmed they did offer financing on the DS properties, but when it came down to it, as to whether or not they still provide finance/refinance, they stated they could no longer do so despite it still being listed on their website.

as for smshah's point about the majority of properties being financed, i'm not sure i agree with that, as it seems that financing is the exception rather than the norm...

^^ Correct. I wish people would stop making sweeping asumptions about Dubai's property market.

I also do not agree with smshahs point about most property purchases in Dubai being on finance or mortgages. There is a lot of cash out there and only really buyers from the more sophisticated banking areas can contemplate mortgages for their purchases. I'm not sure how the Russians entering the market in Dubai will affect things - but they are major players almost everywhere now - and it's all cash!! I think smshahs seeing it from the point of view of small time players keen to get a slice of the pie - but needing finance. It isn't necessarily a huge section of the market.

I also can't see any reason why TT would be less mortgagable than any other building. Only leading and well known designers and contractors have been used; - why should there be any problem?

^^
yes, i agree, although i think the situation will get much better for Select Properties, once theyve successfuly delivered their first development. there seems to be no standard criteria used by which a bank will determine what is mortgageable and what not. it doesnt seem to be down to contruction/build quality. Take Barclays Dubai for example, at this point in time, they only provide mortgages on Emmar, Nakheel and one other major player's properties(whose name escapes me).

I agree with Alan here,

I work in the Financial Services industry in the UK and deal with Investment and Finance providers on a daily basis.

Where there is a need for Financial Services, there will be Providers falling over themselves to meet the demand.

It's very early days in Dubai but in 3-5 years The Motgage market will be huge and the worlds banks will all want a slice of the action

I also do not agree with smshahs point about most property purchases in Dubai being on finance or mortgages. There is a lot of cash out there and only really buyers from the more sophisticated banking areas can contemplate mortgages for their purchases. I'm not sure how the Russians entering the market in Dubai will affect things - but they are major players almost everywhere now - and it's all cash!! I think smshahs seeing it from the point of view of small time players keen to get a slice of the pie - but needing finance. It isn't necessarily a huge section of the market.

I also can't see any reason why TT would be less mortgagable than any other building. Only leading and well known designers and contractors have been used; - why should there be any problem?


Go to emaar sales office at downtown and you will see ARABS buying property for themselves. whre are the so called russians, if they are buying they are not buying in droves, arabas are buying and then reselling them for a quick profit, or keeping them

look inestors use your brains!

Look at tamheel figures for lending and how much mortgage lending has increased in dubai.
Lets say you are a seller of an apartment, how many buyers do u have? u wont have any of the buyers who are purchasing on finance buying your apartment only the cash purchasers.
Now how many arabs are cash purchasers? Not many

dont believe me? go to the sales center and see for yourselves how many are mortgage buyers
ive seen it, u go to and see
go and see first and then make facual answers

Yeah, that makes a lot more sense now, you should have said it that way first time - so how many of these Arabs are Arsenal supporters according to Tamweel again?

I agree with smshah, you have not got a hope in hell of selling your torch unit on completion without a local bank lending. Why are Mashreq no longer lending? Is that true?

Jesus, Steve, do you seriously believe that there aren't buyers out there that would pay 1.4 million cash for a 1 bed on Dubai Marina?

Has Cupid fired an arrow to the head? :nuts:

:lol:

Anyone wanting to sell their Torch unit to someone that can't get finance PM me.

As long as they have pulse the money's in the bank.

On the secondary market (usually complete units) most agents say that the majority of deals have finance now. I am sure by the time TT is complete there will be banks queuing up to provide finance.

At time of completion, the torch units will be worth more than double of their original launch prices so will be quite expensive to buy. They will also not be so attractive to investors at that stage, rather they will be for end users. End users typically require a mortgage and do not have £400,000 stuffed in their back pocket for a cash purchase.

Without any banks lending on the torch you will not be able to sell it.

I am confused why Mashreq are backing down. (perhaps the delays and bad press select property is getting)

Perhaps after completion the story will be different.

:ohno:

Tut tut, Steve, so many scenarios/possibilities left out...i'll just put it down to Valentine's Day stress.

Here's a thought, what about the thousands of investors who will be flipping (or will have already flipped) on their original property purchases and WILL therefore have hundreds of thousands of pounds in cash ready for their next purchase??? Anyway, its a nonsensical argument as its too general - we all know buying and selling property is all about getting lucky, meeting the right people and having the right agent.

Anything is possible in Dubai.

I am not stressed I already have my red roses and the restaurant booked :lol:

http://cdn.overstock.com/images/products/L10683123.jpg

I agree with smshah, you have not got a hope in hell of selling your torch unit on completion without a local bank lending. Why are Mashreq no longer lending? Is that true?

Steve, i was as surprised as you. it really was a case of one minute they were, the next minute they werent, as he confirmed that up until very recently they did, but no longer did.

i didnt think to ask why they had stopped, although I'll email the guy i met from the bank to determine the excact reason they're citing and will let you know.

All banks munch peni, so what would they know anyway?

I talked to about 5 or 6 banks while in Dubai in Nov / Dec and although DS were not on the list, all of them were prepared to lend based on my financial / work situation back home and other properties I have in UAE. As a matter of fact I regret giving my details to a couple of them.

Don't get any of the arguments above, Naz is spot on, Surprised at you Steve today and as for Smshah he always talks bollox.

Happy Valentine people :grouphug:

just to provide some clarification re Mashreq financing:

"We are still financing the torch, although we are only financing non residents."

Thanks Joannides :banana::banana:

Now I can enjoy the rest of my day!

What's to stop somebody remortgaging their houses in the UK to get funds to buy in Dubai. That's what we did.

Erm, no common sense?

You would have to be quite wealthy to raise £400k from your UK home which would be needed to buy a 2 bed outright in the torch in 3 years time. It is ok to do that at the moment as some property in Dubai is still relatively cheap to buy but in 3 years time it will not be compared to UK property prices.

More likely in a few years cash buyers will be selling up in the UK and buying a place for retirement or downsizing and buying a Dubai holiday home.

As an investor it is better to use your funds found from remortgaging to buy deposits with mortgages on several properties rather than buying 1 outright.

All I am saying is that as prices rise and stretch to their maximum in Dubai over the next few years there will be less and less cash buyers in the market (until the next cycle) so having as many easy ways to get finance on the Torch as possible would be an ideal situation for those who want to sell on in the future.

^^

Steve,

I really admire your optomism regarding Torch resale values in 3 years time.

Is this based on any theory/actuarial calculations or is it just good old fashioned wishfull thinking ?

Price per sq/ft of comparable completed property is already currently 1800 per sq/ft. Purchase price was around 980 sq/ft on average. It is not hard to imagine that price per sq/ft will be the same as it is now for completed property or higher in 3 years, especially considering how amazing the tallest block will be looking and by that time Pentominium, Damac heights, Marina Arcade, Dubai Promenade and Emaar's kebab shop will be well on their way and driving the price up more.

prices will be at least 3000/sq ft in phase 1 by next year.

prices will be at least 3000/sq ft in phase 1 by next year.

^^ That would mean a 2 bed in the Torch would cost £544k. A little too ambitious I think.

yes, seems very optimistic, seeing i just missed out on buying a 2 b/r apartment in the Torch on the 36th floor, which was just sold for AED1314868Net (AED1338941 all in). i recognise this is still offplan pricing and a bargain, but still, it would need to increase in multiples to get to over £500k

But prices are already 3k/sq ft now in Dubai Promenade.

yes, seems very optimistic, seeing i just missed out on buying a 2 b/r apartment in the Torch on the 36th floor, which was just sold for AED1314868Net (AED1338941 all in). i recognise this is still offplan pricing and a bargain, but still, it would need to increase in multiples to get to over £500k

Whoever managed to buy that got the Dubai investment of the year ! At 1055 sq/ft that is the lowest off-plan priced property in the entire marina.

Whoever managed to buy that got the Dubai investment of the year !

good price i admint, but there are loads of bargains out there.

take apartment 4806 (2 b/r), this is currently for sale for AED1456848 and is still available!

^^ Not for long where is my cheque book :runaway:

Yes now you may see a few distressed buyers who can not afford the quarterly payments for the next 3 years. But this is seriously underpriced!

^^ Not for long where is my cheque book :runaway:

Yes now you may see a few distressed buyers who can not afford the quarterly payments for the next 3 years. But this is seriously underpriced!

this is someone who has paid 90%, since there is a 10% payment to the developer outstanding. very tempting!

It really is amazing that people are paying 1500 sq/ft for Zurumud, Atlantic, Silverene etc. and 3000 sq/ft for dubai promenade direct from the developers when there are such great investments to be had on the secondary market!

I have been watching Zumurud for a while, people are paying over 2k/sq ft for it.We have to ask Imre, may be he knows something we don't.

I just realised 4806 belongs to smshah :lol:

No wonder he was asking about mortgage lenders for his buyers since he does not have the lengthy payment plan.

I have been watching Zumurud for a while, people are paying over 2k/sq ft for it.We have to ask Imre, may be he knows something we don't.

^^ 2000 sq/ft. They must be nuts! I think Imre drove up the price by announcing he had bought there. However he only bought there becuase it was a potentially good investment for a small studio on holiday rentals, quality is good and delivery is not too far away. I personally would not invest there for anything other than a studio and not above 1500 sq/ft

Dear SM Shah;

Please forgive me for saying that you talked bollox, I did not mean it :)

Please don't sell Steve 4806, sell it to me :cheers::banana::banana:

Mackie

Price per sq/ft of comparable completed property is already currently 1800 per sq/ft. Purchase price was around 980 sq/ft on average. It is not hard to imagine that price per sq/ft will be the same as it is now for completed property or higher in 3 years, especially considering how amazing the tallest block will be looking and by that time Pentominium, Damac heights, Marina Arcade, Dubai Promenade and Emaar's kebab shop will be well on their way and driving the price up more.

What in your opinion is a comparable completed property going for 1800 psf ?