Yes, last night it happened ... floor 8 (of the tower) completed

Thanks mate :cheers:

I received the following email from Betterhomes last week:-

Dear valuable clients


Please find attached the location map for our upcoming project in Dubai Marina, which will be a mixed use development.

This is as much information that I can give you so far. The pre launch is due end of April.

We will keep you updated with any new developments in this regard.

Many Thanks

is this a trick post or you forgot to post the map :)

Here is the map :cry:

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7109/dubaimarinamapphaseimaroc7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

it wud be funny if the culprit behind the secret 100 storied towers in front of TT are..... Dubai Select themselves :lol:

Given that layout I find 90+ floor buildings highly unlikely. But I am no professional.

3 will be 100 floors
2 and 4 will be 90 floors.

Similar to this layout I imagine, probably those ugly kebab towers or similar then.

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/5133/4cru62vlk8.jpg

So all Marina View units will get a Marina View between the towers al be it small, but legally fullfulling to justify a price hike.

wow, 3 new supertalls for the Tallest Block :cheers:

3 will be 100 floors
2 and 4 will be 90 floors.

Similar to this layout I imagine, probably those ugly kebab towers or similar then.

I used to like you :ohno::ohno: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/5996/ssskm6.jpg

Core at 12F .

12? you've to count the base-floors also ^^....i counted at least 16 floors

Well if it is the kebab towers some Torch owners will get lucky and see through the holes in the middle of the towers where the sky gardens are :D

Quote from 2006 :poke:

Dubai Select has decided to add a high-tech touch to the project by making use of web cam technology to show its Torch Tower customers what stage construction is at. We decided to install a web cam on site, so people can access the project wherever they may be. It is new for our customers, and as far as we know it’s new for Dubai. We’re going to move the web cam around the site, so people can see the entire construction process.

This morning ...

http://docs.google.com/File?id=d5rhnmx_47c5jh34cv

Mornin tractor, what floor do you take your pictures from?

Quote from 2006 :poke:

After inquiring a couple of weeks back I now have i in writing from SP that this is not going to happen. There is no longer any intention that the "developer" will place a webcam as had been previously stated. I queried the insinuation that SP was not the developer and that they seemed to be talking about some third party. In response I was told that this is in fact the case and that SP is a different company - merely the sales and marketing arm of Dubai Select who is in fact the developer, and as such they have no powers to instruct the developer to place the webcam. Hmmmmmm!!

Just to ensure that I quote from the horses mouth:-

Further to your request into the webcam, I wanted to clarify for you that the Developer of the Torch is Dubai Select LLC and our company Select Property Limited are the Sales and Aarketing arm for this developer and therefore we do not have the authority to request that the webcam is put in place.



After speaking with the developer we can now confirm that we will not be getting the webcam, however we will be continuing to send you regular construction updates on progress and milestones for the Torch which are currently being put together so that we can give our clients a breakdown of construction. As soon as we receive these from our Business Development department I shall endeavour to get them over to you.

After inquiring a couple of weeks back I now have i in writing from SP that this is not going to happen. There is no longer any intention that the "developer" will place a webcam as had been previously stated. I queried the insinuation that SP was not the developer and that they seemed to be talking about some third party. In response I was told that this is in fact the case and that SP is a different company - merely the sales and marketing arm of Dubai Select who is in fact the developer, and as such they have no powers to instruct the developer to place the webcam. Hmmmmmm!!

Just to ensure that I quote from the horses mouth:-

Further to your request into the webcam, I wanted to clarify for you that the Developer of the Torch is Dubai Select LLC and our company Select Property Limited are the Sales and Aarketing arm for this developer and therefore we do not have the authority to request that the webcam is put in place.



After speaking with the developer we can now confirm that we will not be getting the webcam, however we will be continuing to send you regular construction updates on progress and milestones for the Torch which are currently being put together so that we can give our clients a breakdown of construction. As soon as we receive these from our Business Development department I shall endeavour to get them over to you.

all the things that DS promised as part of them being different/better than other developers are proving to be just hot air, cheap tricks or marketing spin.

as for what has been promised above regarding the milestones, i've been waiting for this for the last year, so i'm not holding my breath...

and before i get accused of being anti-DS/SP, this is nothing of the sort - i only wish i could trust the written (and spoken) words that come from the mouths of the developer and their sales and marketing company and to expect them both to work in sync. obviously, this is too much to ask....

I queried the insinuation that SP was not the developer and that they seemed to be talking about some third party. In response I was told that this is in fact the case and that SP is a different company - merely the sales and marketing arm of Dubai Select who is in fact the developer,

Just to ensure that I quote from the horses mouth:-

Further to your request into the webcam, I wanted to clarify for you that the Developer of the Torch is Dubai Select LLC and our company Select Property Limited are the Sales and Aarketing arm for this developer and therefore we do not have the authority to request that the webcam is put in place.


To all those investors hoping for some kind of miracle legal action or civil claim to compensate loss of views which have been paid for;

This is what corporate lawyers call "layering".

Basicaly creating distinctive gaps between different parts of their businesses. It provides a neverending labyrinth of corridors down which people, statements, information can hide, or be hidden.

All of a sudden Select Property Ltd, have little control or communication skills with Dubai Select LLC (the Torch Developer). Its like they are totally un related entities.

Legally they are.

Even simple questions to SP are now being defferred to "The Developer".

Remember it is "The Developer" we have contracts with not SP the polished sales & marketing arm based in the UK.

I wouldnt be surprised if once all the sales have completed on all the developments and there is no need for a UK sales team they will close down the UK side of the Company all together.

Still on a positive note it looks like the tower is now growing at a floor a week. :)

This morning ...

Can you or someone else please load it using a different site (Tinypic or imageshak), I can't see this photo (site blocked from here) and I am away at present.

^^

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/3707/49246203fv0.th.jpg (http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=49246203fv0.jpg)

Many thanks Altin :cheers:

@ High Times;

While I understand the layering and desk on wheels philosophies I would not discourage anybody from taking them on, especially people who have walked into a UK office and bought from a UK based company that used to be called Dubai Select (Now Select Group). The parent company and the owners are still the same and I am sure your lawyer friends/relatives would tell you that there are laws that would protect you despite the way the contract is written. The marketing arm is just part of the company. :cheers:

This is just the beginning :ohno:

With the cost of materials and the way the inflation / tie to the dollar, we will face quality issues here in the very near future despite having a fixed price contract with the main contractor.

The compensation issue will not be a straight forward as many people also think. Yes we have it in writing a couple of times but there are ways that they can get out of it.

In Summary, It's a bloody Mafia and we are totally f****d.

IS Morris still in Dubai?

If it is true about the explosion at the cement factory this morning then were all f----d anyway.

^^Altin Said it was not the Cement Factory and most of the cement does not come from there any way.

No it was Select Properties head office in Dubai.

Dont Get MAD - get EVEN.

Wait until my uncle in Basra hears how these Cheshire based C**ts have lied he'll sort them out. RPG style.............................

IS Morris still in Dubai?


You mean Morris is in Dubai and we havnt had a pic from him. :bash:

IS Morris still in Dubai?

^^ I think the explosion confirms that he is and he ain't happy:bash:

You mean Morris is in Dubai and we havnt had a pic from him. :bash:

Yes, I think the family were spending Easter holidays there. Where are the photos Morris? :cheers:

Quote from 2006 :poke:

^^ They obviously never went to the JBR website...had a web cam for ages!
http://www.jbr.ae/highband/sitevision_live/index.htm

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/6588/tallestblockme6.jpg

I just realized this 60 floor tower could actually be on plot 22 on the above map between TT and MH but pushed forward slightly with another behind it. This could then be in addition to the 3 towers that will go in front of TT & MH.

http://www.bmg-group.de/content/articles/projects/pictures/swarowskitower01.jpg

http://www.bmg-group.de/index.php?en_swarowski#

Also Tractor has said plot 12 will be a line of supertalls so these could eventually block Naz' partial sea view. One of these is most likely to be the 90 floor MarinaCrystal.

http://www.bmg-group.de/content/articles/projects/pictures/marinacrystal01.jpg

Stive, you have any idea on the 3 building project who is the developer and when it will be released.
Thanks

The developer is BMG

27/03/2008

http://i29.tinypic.com/dzxt7n.jpg

Many Thanks Altin :hug:

Yes thanks for this great picture!

The "cut and paste" seems to be well established now and reasonably quick.

Stive, you have any idea on the 3 building project who is the developer and when it will be released.
Thanks

No the developer for the 3 building project is not known yet (It is not likely to be BMG). The rumour is that the plot was given to someone in Abu Dhabi by Sheikh Mohammed. According to better homes the project will be pre-launched at the end of April.

Thank you for the photo AltinD :bow:

How sweet, our little torch is growing quite fast now :)

nice shot Altin :cheers:

If they can maintain this speed then the tower could well be topped out by Sept 09. Then another year to fit out and finish.

I'm sure those more experienced in construction issues will say i'm wrong, but hey as long as i repeat that schedule enough times to myself at least it keeps the violent thoughts and vioces at bay.

Yes speed is very fast at the moment. It is in DCE's interest to get the job done as fast as they can manage. DS paid a fixed sum for the construction. Handover is Dec 2010 in my opinion and Mackie will owe me that £100 by just a few days :)

Hey AltinD, who is your new girlfriend ?

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1990/altindew1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/4525/morissmarinafc8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Some activity on the plot in front now.

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/7213/emaarplotey6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

AltinD great shots! TT's shape looks awesome.

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/9421/worldstallestresikv2.jpg

What a great way to see the progress of the Torch in comparison to its size and the other towers. It would be good to get an update like that every month or few weeks.
Keep up the good work.

Hey AltinD, who is your new girlfriend ?

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1990/altindew1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


OOPS ... now Morris would know who took that picture of him. :runaway:



http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/4525/morissmarinafc8.jpg

I'm not red-skinned, don't keep a backpack ... and was in shorts the last times I visited the Marina. Don't have a beer belly too. :bash: :D


PS. Yeah, progress is fantastic now and the tower is shapped nicely.

Some activity on the plot in front now.

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/7213/emaarplotey6.jpg

Yup, saw a soil testing rig on that site.

My mate went to Dubai and all he brought me back was this lousy photo. :)

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/607/44979808so4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Bad news guys, official confirmation today of the project in front of the Torch (not an april fools joke).

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=601617

Anyone fancy a kebab.

2005
(from DS) the torch stands proudly at the mouth of the marina, bla bla bla...

2008
the torch stands shy surrounded by a wall of skyscrapers.

...

Don't worry too much they will be launching these at 2,000 to 2,500 aed psf i would think ?

So the prices will move up at The Torch also

The Marina Arcade is looking like a good place for a shop purchase now with this amount of potential customers in the vicinity - hope the car parks are big enough around the area

Don't worry too much they will be launching these at 2,000 to 2,500 aed psf i would think ?

So the prices will move up at The Torch also


I'm sure that any new development with direct, front line marina views will now be released at a price of at least 2000 AED per square foot, as you suggest.

That's what our apartments in The Torch ought to have been worth had the three new supertalls not been given the green light for the plot right in front of ours.

As it stands, we'll now have second line apartments, worth rather less than before...

I'm going to go through the process of trying to negotiate a solution with the lying, cheating scum up in Cheshire, but realistically, this is likely to end up as one for the lawyers, as dubai_steve rightly points out.

I suggest we all collage any brochures, emails and other representations made by DS that led us to believe the Torch had direct marina views, as they will be critical to any future claim.

You can't do a thing until the design is released and the positioning of the towers has been confirmed. Any gaps which allow some sort of marina view could be critical.

The podium will be shared by all 3 towers (and is 14 floors) it will be interesting to see if the podium is enormous and takes up the entire plot which would mean bigger gaps between the towers. Or it could be placed more centrally with all 3 towers bunched together.

Also if construction doesn't start until at least next year, some apartments could have full marina view for a couple of years or so like MH has enjoyed.

If these apts do sell for 2000-2500 psf then I don't see TT apts being valued dramatically lower...

I'm sure that any new development with direct, front line marina views will now be released at a price of at least 2000 AED per square foot, as you suggest.

That's what our apartments in The Torch ought to have been worth had the three new supertalls not been given the green light for the plot right in front of ours.

As it stands, we'll now have second line apartments, worth rather less than before...

I'm going to go through the process of trying to negotiate a solution with the lying, cheating scum up in Cheshire, but realistically, this is likely to end up as one for the lawyers, as dubai_steve rightly points out.

I suggest we all collage any brochures, emails and other representations made by DS that led us to believe the Torch had direct marina views, as they will be critical to any future claim.

I will definitely take them on, especially that I was assured when I wanted to walk away from the deals that there can't be any building higher than 16floors in front. I can't describe them better than mark put it above without offending people :bash::bash:

...

I feel sorry for owners on floors below 16 of The Torch as the huge proposed shared podium for the project in front will be 14 stories tall alone. They will have no light at all. However, DS and Select Property only promised a clear marina view to investors above that floor.

Me too, though some at least went into this knowing that there could be something built in front of their apartments.

Luckily, I keep all my old emails (thankyou, Gmail!) and it didn't take long to find the exchange I had with one of DS's staff, before I reserved my 'marina view' apartments, in which I asked what if anything would be built on the old Emaar sales office plot and was told it could not be anything taller than 18 storeys...

As far as I'm concerned, I entered into the transaction on the basis of representations made by their staff that I would have direct, unobstructed views from what would then have been 52nd- and 53rd- floor apartments (now even higher, due to the reconfiguration). I also made it clear that this was an issue of concern to me. So if they now turn out not to have the promised views, it's DS's problem, not mine...

No wonder DS moved the pool round the back which is now the premium side of the tower.

I would say you will incur at least a 20% loss in value of your Torch apartment if there is no view at all. A buyer will prefer to pay at least 20% more for the tower in front with an amazing clear marina view than no view at all. A 20% loss on a 2 bed in the Torch priced at 2500 psf would mean a loss of almost £100k per apartment.

If it is the kebab towers design then you will not get any view between the gaps as the towers are VERY wide and the gap very small.

If the gaps between the towers are very small and the angles prevent a view from the Torch then Select property could make the claim of £100k loss per apartment on DAS Holdings to prevent approval of this terrible design.

Steve, it depends how you 'define' loss. In real terms you will make more money than anyone buying into one of the new towers. The capital growth they will experience will after paying 2-2.5k psf will be signficantly less than what you will make after having only paid just over 1k.

I'm also very disappointed by the announcement and sure the outcome could have been better but I don't think this is the end of the world.....The £100k difference you mentioned is subjective in the sense that the inflated prices of the new apts helped create that difference.

Although prices will rise from the original purchase price this will be because of general property price inflation. The market value of the Torch will drop 15 to 20% because it will now have no view at all.

...

I am not a happy chappy, I bought on floor 6, which is now floor 12 but that won't make a difference if it's a 14 floor podium. The fractional ownership apartments are the first 6 floors.
I was also told they couldn't build anything higher than 18 floors in front but didn't get it in writing.

Adding supply generally decreases prices. The prices only increase because demand increase. Adding this pile of "Sky Towers" crap to the marina will only devalue this area in my opinion.

You're dead right - it's basic economics and I agree that three 90-100f towers will not improve the lifestyle aspect of "Dubai Marina".

However, adding a 100f office tower will itself generate an element of demand. Also, besides captial growth, the ROI could still be very attractive given the weekly cost of other serviced apartments in the area.

...

Anybody still got a copy of all original prices?

I used to have it but can't locate it.

Please post it here if you have it :cheers:

No wonder DS moved the pool round the back which is now the premium side of the tower.

Which actually makes me wonder how long they've known about these supposedly 'new' plans to build three supertalls right in front of The Torch...

I have the original price list but don't know how to get it on the thread. If you tell me I'll do it.

Although prices will rise from the original purchase price this will be because of general property price inflation. The market value of the Torch will drop 15 to 20% because it will now have no view at all.

Yes - while it's true that our apartments have gone up in value since we reserved, that's purely because we were prepared to stump up money when Dubai was a much less mature property investment destination than it is now. The fact is that our apartments are worth less today than they were yesterday when there was no confirmation that anything taller than 18 floors would be built between The Torch and the marina.

Also, the worst falls in value will affect the apartments that were supposed to face the marina, which were sold at a premium when released due to their supposedly superior views, and in particular those significantly higher than the 18th floor, below which there was always a risk/expectation that there would be an interruption to their views.

So, as the potential owner of two type 06 apartments on what were originally the 52nd and 53rd floors, I'm not best pleased...

Front of the building and the right hand side that faces the shopping mall and Marina Heights will have the best views (in my opinion).

These will be direct Marina views.

:bash:

Completion end 2007. Emaar building in front of the Tower has planning for 12 storeys eventually.

Best Sea Views will be at the back of the building obviously higher up.

www.dubaiselect.co.uk

:bash:

Don't worry many people on this forum did get it in writing. We will form an action group. If nothing is done or offered as compensation for marina facing owners then the press will be getting some interesting articles.

I got it in writing and am happy to share that evidence with other purchasers in due course.

Having experienced a 15-month delay (and counting) in delivery of a Goldcrest Views duplex, a near two-year hold-up on a Lake Terrace studio and now this, and having also read about how the lying turds that run Damac have just cancelled palm Springs after FIVE years and offered buyers there paltry compensation, I'm on the point of setting up a forum for people who've been short-changed by Dubai developers to get together and set up group legal actions to get damages.

It seems to me that the default position of developers in Dubai when projects are delayed or cancelled or specifications changed is to say, in effect, 'So - what are you going to do about it?'. When the wronged parties are individuals, often with little money or time to put into litigation in a country they're unfamiliar with, the answer is all too often 'Not a lot, actually'. I think there needs to be a forum for such people to join forces in order to change the default response to developers' backsliding to one of forceful and high-profile legal action. Once this is the case, the chances of them settling amicably would increase considerably, because the chances of them getting away with it would be a lot lower.

...

There is planning for a 15 storey building in front of the Tower if they remove the sales centre. However, the 2 bed apartments on the lower floors sit on the corner of the building and therefore have unobstructed views.

If this smaller tower is ever built it will only ever effect the 1 bed apartments on the lower floors.

In answer to Al Million - you are very welcome to visit our offices in Wilmslow, Cheshire- UK. I hardly think the information I have posted is flimsy, would you like some floor plans and building plans?


:bash:

I got it in writing and am happy to share that evidence with other purchasers in due course.

Having experienced a 15-month delay (and counting) in delivery of a Goldcrest Views duplex, a near two-year hold-up on a Lake Terrace studio and now this, and having also read about how the lying turds that run Damac have just cancelled palm Springs after FIVE years and offered buyers there paltry compensation, I'm on the point of setting up a forum for people who've been short-changed by Dubai developers to get together and set up group legal actions to get damages.

It seems to me that the default position of developers in Dubai when projects are delayed or cancelled or specifications changed is to say, in effect, 'So - what are you going to do about it?'. When the wronged parties are individuals, often with little money or time to put into litigation in a country they're unfamiliar with, the answer is all too often 'Not a lot, actually'. I think there needs to be a forum for such people to join forces in order to change the default response to developers' backsliding to one of forceful and high-profile legal action. Once this is the case, the chances of them settling amicably would increase considerably, because the chances of them getting away with it would be a lot lower.


The Major difference here Mark is DS/SG is a UK based and we walked into a UK company advertising in UK Newspapers so it is covered by our laws despite the contract being with their sister company in Dubai. At this stage of the Dubai market, I would not feel comfortable taking a Dubai based company on because the chances of winning is remote and after winning, the chances of actually enforcing the judgment is very remote.

If this Kebab shop design turns out to be true and I loose all the views from our units, we will do something legally about it here in the UK. :bash:

I blame High Times, he is the one who wanted a kebab shop !

The Major difference here Mark is DS/SG is a UK based and we walked into a UK company advertising in UK Newspapers so it is covered by our laws despite the contract being with their sister company in Dubai. At this stage of the Dubai market, I would not feel comfortable taking a Dubai based company on because the chances of winning is remote and after winning, the chances of actually enforcing the judgment is very remote.

If this Kebab shop design turns out to be true and I loose all the views from our units, we will do something legally about it here in the UK. :bash:

I think you're right about the fact that have a case against the UK-based sales agency Dubai Select/Select Property as we bought on the basis of representations from them to the effect that there would be nothing taller than 18 floors (some versions state lower) in front of the building.

We may be in a legally binding agreement with Torch Select Limited, the Dubai-based developer, which we will have to honour, but if the misrepresentation by the UK agent DS/SD reduces the value of the apartments, we have a straightforward case against them for damages, namely the difference between what the apartments would have been worth with front line views and what they turn out to be worth without.

As for the judicial system in Dubai, what I'm hearing is that it's more rigorous than many people in the UK assume, but I'd much rather litigate here than there, given the choice. And thankfully, the structure DS/SD have used would appear to point in that direction...

Shame about the new towers in front the Torch Plot. I almost purchased in The Torch and was going to pay considerably more to face marina. Seems a joke now that marina facing cost more, The two sides were also inflated due to partial marina views. The only winners I think will be the people that purchased the cheaper apartments on the rear (facing away from marina). The sales team had a harder time shifting these and were doing better deals...

^^ That reminds me is Morris STILL on holiday ! I hope he did not take a visit to the fireworks factory.

I think you're right about the fact that have a case against the UK-based sales agency Dubai Select/Select Property as we bought on the basis of representations from them to the effect that there would be nothing taller than 18 floors (some versions state lower) in front of the building.

We may be in a legally binding agreement with Torch Select Limited, the Dubai-based developer, which we will have to honour, but if the misrepresentation by the UK agent DS/SD reduces the value of the apartments, we have a straightforward case against them for damages, namely the difference between what the apartments would have been worth with front line views and what they turn out to be worth without.

As for the judicial system in Dubai, what I'm hearing is that it's more rigorous than many people in the UK assume, but I'd much rather litigate here than there, given the choice. And thankfully, the structure DS/SD have used would appear to point in that direction...

No comment

It was an April fools day joke wasn't it? wasn't it??

Not as good as this classic tough.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyUvNnmFtgI&feature=related

In a dream world DS should increase TT by 40 floors, obviously not applicable.
In a fair world DS should offer some kind of financial compensation such as price discount to higher floors marina facing units, again probably not their next favorite move.
In a nasty world DS will fight to avoid paying any compensation to its misleaded clients.

So DS, where are you standing?

I don't see how those unhappy with the new project have any legal grounds to protest. Any "marina facing" views were true at the time the units were being sold and I don't see how the developer can be held responsible for future construction on a plot they do not own. Why would you as buyers just take their word that there won't be this or that in front when you knew they did not own these plots. Your contracts may say "marina facing" views, but I'm sure they don't say that such views are guaranteed into eternity. This is not at all the same thing as Damac cancelling Palm Springs and this event involves no change in design of the Torch. If you live in "Manhattan" how can you be surprised if a tall tower is being built besides yours? Even so-called front row towers can never guarantee another row of towers will not be built in front of them when land reclamation is clearly a possibility in a place like Dubai.

You guys should be happy this tower is rising and is in such a prime urban location. Your values will be there, unless you all start to panic irrationally over something you should have known could never be guaranteed.

Where will the money come from to fund the compensation claims? The current problem in Dubai is that developers are finding themselves under funded to complete the projects today that they sold years ago.

Where will the money come from to fund the compensation claims? The current problem in Dubai is that developers are finding themselves under funded to complete the projects today that they sold years ago.

Exactly. In the very unlikely event of mass compensation payouts, the project would not be completed at all and then how much would everyone lose...

Exactly. In the very unlikely event of mass compensation payouts, the project would not be completed at all and then how much would everyone lose...

Reading your last few posts, I am beginning to worry about you :nuts:

The project has already been paid for.

We want the extra unfair 'premium' we paid for guaranteed in writing unobstructed marina views to be refunded.

Guys,

I bought high up marina facing but didn't get confirmation in writing about unobstructed views.

Am I screwed or can I leverage off other investors' written confirmations?

Cheers

The same thing will happen to Infinity owners with the new plot/s at the side and back, and with properties near Dubai Promenade, or on The World with The Universe. I'm surprised that people think they have a case with regard to light or views being compromised. This is Dubai and these things unfortunately happen all the time. We don't use solicitors and we take risks - it's the nature of the market. Unpleasant but true.

^^^^^^ I AGREE

...

I have been sitting back and watching this thread for the last couple of days now and think it’s time that a degree of clarity should be offered. If not for sanity sake for the sake of this thread, as moderators I’m sure are getting so pissed of with people winging and whining about views and compensation and litigation that this thread will soon be closed AGAIN.

So here’s my take on things;

PROPOSALS

We don’t know any facts yet apart from it looks like three towers will be built on the massive plot in front of the Torch. They are muted to be 100 fl, 100 fl, and 90 fl.

This has not been officially launched yet !

Some of us (me included), have paid a “premium” for units with a Marina View, whether it is a partial marina view, or completely unobstructed marina view. Basically we all did this on the basis that we were “sold” this idea by DS/SP sales staff. DS/SP have lied to all of us and they have this on their conscience (no financial consolation to us, I agree), but the Karma Police will call to collect from those individuals at some stage, of that you can be sure.

KEY ISSUES.

Until we know exactly what the precise placement of these three towers will be, it is a difficult case to present to anyone in terms of litigation in whatever form one sees fit to deliver.

The current proposal is stating a common 14 floor podium. I am no construction expert but I would think it logical that this common podium will not be a huge slab which uses up the whole plot in question. I think it will utilise the bulkiest part of it (as it is an unusual shape). Also surely the three towers would need to be distributed on the podium evenly (load bearing and all that). Perhaps an expert can advise here.

Whatever the answers are there will definitely be some kind of (Marina View) from floor 14/15 upwards in the Torch. It may well be that the plots between TT and Marina Heights is used as part of this development. I also think it will be conditional that some kind of entry/exit traffic flow system is put in place as 3 x 100 floor towers will create logistical traffic nightmares for the Tallest Block. This will also be key as to where the podium and therefore towers will be placed.

On the picture below we can see the whole available plot, as well as the Torch tower side lines extended towards the Marina edge, and field of view angles from Marina facing units.

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/2124/torchplotfrombehinedloowh0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Basically the 3 towers could go anywhere in that space, so until we know the exact placement we are all just pissing in the wind.

LITIGATION.

I think you know where I stand on this issue but I do have some “evidence” that I am willing to throw into the ring which further corroborates what everyone else was “sold/told”.

I do think that the best way forward in this respect is to form some kind of group/forum of effected individuals and take on DS/SP as a cartel and not individually. It would be more effective to pool resources and ideas on how to proceed on a collective basis and also find out how many investors we have to join the fight.

As you all know DS/SP play an active, if not covert part in SSC forums. So perhaps any further talk regarding the way forward should be done in a private forum. I have no idea how this is best done perhaps someone else does. I know Anjam has some kind of owners group already in place, this could be an option I suppose. Relentlessly continuing this disscussion in public is just letting DS/SP stay one step ahread of the game. Don't do it!

FINALY.

I know a lot of us are really pissed of at this view issue, but let’s keep it in perspective. Views are an attractive bonus to a property I agree, but I would rather have a well built, well finished apartment with good facilities, in an excellent location, surrounded by great services. Than an average apartment and none of the above, with a stunning view. If your living or on holiday in Dubai how long are you really going to sit and stare out of your window? They do not have a massive effect on final resale values in an established resale market, from a rental or sale point of view.

Do you think Emirates Harbour hotel will cut it’s room rates when Ocean heights 2 and Infinity are blocking it’s Marina Views?

No, neither do I.

agree with balanced comments above.

Remember, many of us bought into it because of 15 year plan, and hoped for a result in terms of marina view.

The best news is the fact we will now have some commercial workers to fill the apts just when it seems the market will be swamped with finished vacant properties.

Dubai_Steve - time for a Hamlet moment before the head gasket goes...!

I wouldn't be surprised if they sold the plot again. This plot and al burj are the projects with the most mystery surrounding them in all of dubai.

I doubt anything can be done before it's actually decided once and for all what will be built there. Even a render wouldn't do. You'd have to get plans and stuff probably.

About load bearing and all that I don't think it matters how they arrange the towers. The towers will be built and then the podium will be built around them (same as in burj dubai).

Any construction updates ?

^^

you need too be on drugs too see this picture correctly and if you think select are gonna give you any compensation for your loss of views..

Reading your last few posts, I am beginning to worry about you :nuts:

No need to worry mate. You just focus all your energy on getting your compensation...

High Times, the view will depend on the design but if it is the kebab design then those towers are actually wider than the Torch tower so I doubt it will allow for any view to the sides as shown in your diagram.

The very best case will be something like Beppe posted recently from the balcony. The bedrooms will be directly facing the towers so you will want to close the curtains most of the time. :(

http://www.aucc37.dsl.pipex.com/pictures/07.jpg

Any construction updates ?

There is a new update on SG website but I am still away and it’s painfully slow here to upload :cheers:

I'm surprised that people think they have a case with regard to light or views being compromised. This is Dubai and these things unfortunately happen all the time. We don't use solicitors and we take risks - it's the nature of the market. Unpleasant but true.

I think what you say is largely true as an observation about the Dubai property market to date, but I don't accept that it can remain this way.

Yesterday, or was it the day before, I received three pieces of news:

1. A studio I'm buying in Lake Terrace (scheduled delivery: June 2006) will probably be completed in May 2008, nearly two years late

2. The developer, DAMAC, has cancelled Palm Springs, in which I very nearly bought, after nearly five years, and offered purchasers the most insulting level of compensation

3. Two of my Torch apartments that were supposed to have unobstructed marina views probably won't have due to what's likely to be built on the EMAAR sales centre plot.

I'm a real believer in Dubai. Don't tax people who work for a living, bin the armies of do-gooders that leach off society, punish those who commit crimes and reinvest as much of the country's wealth as possible in its growth and the result is wealth creation. The centre of gravity of the world is moving eastward, where populations are still increasing and globalisation is driving economic growth. Damac is a great strategic hub for that part of the world.

But until the country can be trusted as a place where a contract is legally enforceable, including the certainty that damages can be obtained by wronged parties, it will always be an 'emerging' market - a place for investors to launder money, 'flip' properties for a quick profit and young people to earn tax-free bucks for a few years before returning home. For it to become a mature economy where people invest serious long-term wonga and set down roots, things need to change - and fast. It won't take many more Palm Springs and Lighthouses before the bubble bursts and they're back to being a desert port whose oil is fast running out.

Which is why I agree with High Times that the way forward if the proposals come to pass will be some kind of group action. I agree with him that we'd be jumping the gun to do it immediately because the proposals haven't been 100 percent confirmed, but as soon as they are, and I think they will be, we should make our move.

With this in mind, after what happened a couple of days ago, being conscious of how much the moderators here dislike extended discussions about investment and other financial matters, I'm working to create a forum whose sole purpose will be to bring together purchasers who are out of pocket as a result of being inadequately compensated by developers of Dubai projects that have been subject to delays, spec changes or cancellation, with the aim of enabling those buyers to get together to pursue collective legal actions that they might not have the time or funds to pursue individually.

There's just one small area where I disagree with High Times: I'd like to make the forum a public one. The reason is that I want the developers to be able to see exactly what's planned, before it happens. Currently, their biggest advantage is that we're largely disconnected private individuals, spread across the globe. Once they see a well organised critical mass of buyers deciding on a course of action and briefing lawyers to represent them, the chances of them settling when they know they're in the wrong is much higher. And ultimately, that's what we want: for contracts to be legally enforceable, including damages when they're breached.

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/2995/t1mk7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/6708/t2km0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/9936/t3bq8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/6402/t4jh7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/6402/t4jh7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/5111/t6qb6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

No doubt everyone will be praising the progress, but sometime close to the begining of May they will arrive at the stage I guessed they would reach by New Years day.

Speed now is good and about time to.

I have been sitting back and watching this thread for the last couple of days now and think it’s time that a degree of clarity should be offered..........

^^Totally agree with HT. I know many of you guys are furious (and rightly so) about being mislead. However I don't think there is any offical announcement that links Marina Sky Towers with this plot and with the Kebab tower renders? No doubt something will be built but until we know the final design and position there is not much that can be done as far as litigation is concerned and in the meantime we are not doing our investment any favours by speculating and talking it down on a public forum.
As Mackie said on the TP thread there are better ways to approach these issues and this forum may not be one of them. DS staff have reffered to this forum as "The Skyscraper Froum" in many of my discussions with them so chances are they will be reading this.

We can use the owners group which is already setup and running http://groups.google.co.uk/group/torchowners. Looking at the apartment list it seems like a majority of the members will be affected to some extent by what goes on this plot. I am happy to make some of you group admins so you can upload documentary proof etc for future reference.

Wearing rose tinted glasses I think a commercial tower will bring many benefits to the tallest block as long as logistic issues are taken care of. 3000 or so workers will attract other businesses to the area such as doctors, banks, shops etc. Many of those will want to rent in the vicinity. They could probably live in TT, MH, PT and still hook up to their office Wifi ! It may also mean that the plot between TT and MH is incorporated into the project and used for access.

The next few months should clear things up and then at least this cloud of uncertainty will be removed from above TT and the per sqft price can catch up with other similar properties in the Marina.


Just my $0.02

Next to torch

I wonder how could some one think that nothing would be build on this huge plot..

They have started soil testing as well

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/5522/20080402007pk1.jpg

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/1001/20080402006qy8.jpg

^^ Nobody thought that nothing would be built, instead we were guaranteed that this plot has permission only for 18 stories when sold the apartments. So most people tried to buy the higher marina facing units at a premium.

Steve

Relax. Overall, investing in this project is going to be very positive$$.

I doubt you can see the marina even if it is 18 floors :ohno:

Hope the torch gets some sunlight atleast :)

Yesterday, or perhaps the day before, I emailed Giles Beswick at DS about the report. lois Brough answered on the company's behalf. I've asked if she will allow me to post her response to this forum. Since we're not yet in dispute, as a matter of courtesy I'll only post private emails if authorised to do so. However I will provide a potted summary:

- At the moment the report is just a rumour
- DS are trying to check it out themselves
- Even if it turns out to be true, they believe we'll still have spectacular marina views
- Dubai is an immature market where it's difficult to establish losses in a situation like this
- They said what they said in good faith and can't be held accountable
- If we don't like the end result we can still sell and achieve a good profit

I'll post the full version later if Lois gives the green light to do so.

The report is not a rumour, contractors are being invited and soil testing is underway for 2 x 100 storey and 1 90 storey tower with a 14 storey shared podium. Launch and sales are in a few weeks. Too late for redesigns.
We will need to wait for the published design before we know if there will be spectacular views or not.
Many here did not buy in the Torch for investment but for a personal home with a view. It will be difficult to sell the unit and buy an equivalent property with a view (such as the tower in front) without making a substantial loss.

Steve I am simpathetic.. I just hope you are putting this in its proper context.
My flat is on the other side and it is an investment, so chances are the plot in front is going to be positive for me. That said, if was in your position I really wouldn't let it get to me.. for my own good! :).

14 storey podium does look quite good there...

http://i26.tinypic.com/sawcom.jpg

http://i28.tinypic.com/513fo0.jpg

:lol: :nuts:

Mystery solved!

http://i30.tinypic.com/2iijvom.jpg
:runaway:

By Webester the lucky person

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/2048/img2836vy3.jpg

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/1562/img2842df7.jpg

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/786/img2843es1.jpg

I used to love you scoot............Not anymore:bash:

If we are designing this, it would be even worse than this in terms of view (three long @ about 30deg) to maximise on views and money:ohno:

lol good try

It certainly will be a monster of a development !

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/786/img2843es1.jpg

Any reason the Torch is pushed to the left of its podium ?

Mystery solved!

http://i30.tinypic.com/2iijvom.jpg
:runaway:

I totally disagree with this image. That podium should be submerged underground by several floors and the towers will not be that monolithic, they will all be angled (positioned) differently--not at all aligned flush against Marina Heights and Torch. In fact, the curved, tubular design of the towers will blunt any monolithic effect.

(I am going by what we have seen and what has been labeled the Kebab Towers--a misnomer I feel.

ENJOY.................

nq-46GbMaN8


Sorry if i have missed anyone out in the credits.

http://i27.tinypic.com/rw3mhe.jpg

http://i26.tinypic.com/2pyqbyg.jpg

http://i28.tinypic.com/11w52te.jpg

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/786/img2843es1.jpg

Certainly a massive plot of land for a tower (or 3) to be erected on. Cant believe DS investors could be doped into paying a premium for Marina facing apts knowing fully well that DS would have no say in whatever would/could be built here. Thats like telling your next door neighbour they cant erect a fence on their piece of land because it obstructs your view. Once again, DS sales team 1 - Investors 0.

http://i28.tinypic.com/11w52te.jpg

Love this one :banana:

http://i26.tinypic.com/2pyqbyg.jpg

more than likely like this one

No Chance, the gap between the three building will be at an angle and will cancel the views from the back completely. :bash:

^^ Aren't you on the lost-the-time building anyway? :D

just got through the post 'the torch construction schedule' which i guess has been mass mailed to everyone this morning. It contains a basic chart outlining some milestone dates, such as 40th floor by august, 75th floor by feb 09 with a completion still set for September 2009. sorry - i'd post it here, only i dont have a scanner,

HighTimes

Excellent video. Might be improved with a month/year on the pictures.

Thanks

^^ Aren't you on the lost-the-time building anyway? :D

Yes but its only a one bedded room and there are 4 of us, 2 Adults and Two little boys. This was going to be our home :cry: :cry:

Cant see HT Video from here, the site must be blocked :cry::cry::cry::cry:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4838/schedulegg1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

No mention of aluminium cladding, only external painting ?

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4838/schedulegg1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Thank you Steve, I needed a laugh :hilarious:hilarious:hilarious:hilarious:hilarious:hilarious:hilarious:hilarious

Reaching the 75th floor in 44 weeks :hilarious:hilarious:hilarious:hilarious:hilarious:hilarious:hilarious:hilarious

:)

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6613/worldstallestresiec1.jpg

:)

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6613/worldstallestresiec1.jpg

Sorry guys, but knowing the current difficulties in the construction industry and the daily price escalation, It’s hard for me to believe that any of these tall towers will be completed peacefully!!

The schedue does look a bit optimistic. but hey Mackies bet with Steve and I does't look a nailed on cert anymore. Start saving Mackie :lol:

Any reason the Torch is pushed to the left of its podium ?

Oh that? Sorry, I made some last minute adjustments as I wanted a better view of the Trump tower... :runaway:

Sorry guys, but knowing the current difficulties in the construction industry and the daily price escalation, It’s hard for me to believe that any of these tall towers will be completed peacefully!!

As mentioned before, DS pre arranged a maximum price with DCE.


Will they still be using aluminium cladding. It was mentioned before that DCE has its own aluminium factory or something ?

No mention of aluminium cladding, only external painting ?

If they drop the Aluminium cladding to cuts costs I think there will be an even bigger uprising than the loss of views because it affects everyone!

http://i26.tinypic.com/2pyqbyg.jpg

I don't think the Podium will extend to the edges of the plot :dunno:

If they drop the Aluminium cladding to cuts costs I think there will be an even bigger uprising than the loss of views because it affects everyone!

You can bet on that one!

Catching up with 23 Marina and surely ahead of PT now in terms of % complete?

:)

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6613/worldstallestresiec1.jpg

I think it was a bad move to close the Mystery Emaar thread personaly.

It was originaly started to stop the Torch thread from being clogged up with speculation (i believe).

Since it was closed the majority of posts on this Thread have been what would have been on the old Emaar plots thread.

Dont get me wrong these issues are important to all of us but it is just spamming up this Torch thread beyond belief. No one is discussing the Torch here anymore its all about the 14 floor podium, and tower placements.

Until all info is released on the new projects and thus ending speculation would it not be better to keep the old thread open ?

Just a thought. :)

There is a thread for the new project, just no-one is using it much.

TT hasn't achieved a floor in less than a week yet so that schedule is totally unrealistic imo.

There are 2 threads for the new project, we don't need to reopen the emaar thread, especially since it is no longer an Emaar project but a DAS holding project.

World forums :http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=601868
Marina forum: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=601617

The advantage of beeing a skyscraper fan is that i am happy for every skyscraper that is build.

But i know that you give the developer the moneyto build what i want so i think they should give you a compensation.

Cant believe DS investors could be doped into paying a premium for Marina facing apts knowing fully well that DS would have no say in whatever would/could be built here. Thats like telling your next door neighbour they cant erect a fence on their piece of land because it obstructs your view. Once again, DS sales team 1 - Investors 0.

I think you're being a little unfair. The plot in front of The Torch belonged to EMAAR. EMAAR is the Master Developer of Dubai Marina. So they're in control of what can or can't be built on that plot. They're also the people who sold DS the plot to build The Torch.

So there are only two possibilities for what happened. When DS released The Torch, promising unrivalled marina views, and telling any potential buyers who enquired that nothing taller than 18 storeys would be built in front, either they were telling the truth, in which case EMAAR have changed their minds and nobody can buy anything safely in Dubai any more because the Master Developers can't be trusted, or DS were lying, in which case we'll get them for compensation down the line.

Once the reports have been confirmed - and I feel sure they will be - I'll be writing to EMAAR to establish exactly what they told DS. They'll be keen to get themselves off the hook, so if they can substantiate that they told DS that they couldn't be drawn on what would be built on the vacant plot - or, worse, that they said supertalls would go there - then DS will be up the proverbial without a paddle...

^^ What you're saying really isn't very logical. We all know developers promise the sky--perfect views, unparalleled luxury, completion within 2 years, etc. They can't even control their own build schedules much less what is going to be built on another plot which does not belong to them. If the developer tells you you're going to have an unobstructed view, even though there is a vacant plot in front of you, why are you going to be fool enough to believe it. Whatever you were told or "promised" by the sales department is irrelevant if it isn't stated expressly in the contract. Where in your contract does it say that only an 18 story tower will be built on the plot in front? You guys took a risk with your purchase. I can't fault you for being hopeful that it would really be as you were told, but it just seems ridiculous that you are so shocked that things have turned out as they have.

I don't think anyone who lives anywhere can hoot and holler if someone goes and builds something on their own plot of land which happens to block your view.There are dozens of other towers located at Marina edge without space for any other tower. Why didn't you make your purchase in one of those instead of believing something that could not be guaranteed in the first place?

^^ What you're saying really isn't very logical. We all know developers promise the sky--perfect views, unparalleled luxury, completion within 2 years, etc. They can't even control their own build schedules much less what is going to be built on another plot which does not belong to them. If the developer tells you you're going to have an unobstructed view, even though there is a vacant plot in front of you, why are you going to be fool enough to believe it. Whatever you were told or "promised" by the sales department is irrelevant if it isn't stated expressly in the contract. Where in your contract does it say that only an 18 story tower will be built on the plot in front? You guys took a risk with your purchase. I can't fault you for being hopeful that it would really be as you were told, but it just seems ridiculous that you are so shocked that things have turned out as they have.

I don't think anyone who lives anywhere can hoot and holler if someone goes and builds something on their own plot of land which happens to block your view.There are dozens of other towers located at Marina edge without space for any other tower. Why didn't you make your purchase in one of those instead of believing something that could not be guaranteed in the first place?

Sorry, but I think you're wrong. Very wrong, in fact.

If a developer promises something - no matter what it is - they must deliver it. If they can't deliver it, they must not promise it. Simple as that. That's how it works in developed countries. If Dubai wants to be counted among them, it needs to enforce the same standards, or else its property bubble will burst. And with Damac's Palm Springs announcement earlier this week, it won't take much for that to happen.

As others have explained here, although our contracts don't state that nothing taller than 18 floors will be built in front of The Torch, a number of us bought on the basis of written assertions from Dubai Select (the UK company that marketed the properties) that this would be the case. They were either lying to us or were misinformed by EMAAR, the master developer and owner of the vacant plot.

If DS misled us, we have a case against them. If they acted in good faith we might not, but they'll certainly have one against EMAAR, and if they're wise they'd pursue that to get compensation which they then pass on to us.

^^ i agree.

No comment

It certainly is not the fault of the investors that they allowed themselves to be screwed ... many won't have even visited the site themselves to see what the area is like. Others will have bought when the sales centre was still there and open for business.

This is not the first time that state-owned developers in Dubai have shown their very short-term attitude towards business. People who bought in the Marina Heights were told it would be the tallest tower in the area, believe it or not. Then Emaar removed their height restrictions to make extra $$$ on the plots near Marina Walk, etc. They were also told the plot in front would remain as a car park for visitors to Phase1,etc. ... now it has been removed, there are massive parking and congestion problems every single night.

Put simply, they just don't give a shit and won't until they get publicly humiliated regularly enough that they start worrying about the bubble bursting. Even then, their banks will simply get a phone call and be told to buy any surplus units to prop up the market.

Maybe when they announce they're going to build in front of Le Reve, etc. some super-rich person will make one hell of a mess and help change attitudes.

^^ No doubt they will build towers in front of Le Reve. Some super-rich person will just sell and buy in a new, better spot. Anyway, we are skyscraper fans, aren't we. The more and the taller, the merrier. Part of the appeal of Dubai Marina living is not just the marina waterway and the beach, but the tall towers everywhere.

^^ but part of the appeal of Dubai Marina living is not living amongst the offensive 14 storey podium, 3 plot wide car park that is Marina Sky Towers :bash:

If DS misled us, we have a case against them. If they acted in good faith we might not, but they'll certainly have one against EMAAR, and if they're wise they'd pursue that to get compensation which they then pass on to us.

Hi Mark,

Perhaps I'm missing something but could you please elaborate on how DS could potentially have a claim against EMAAR?

Do you believe that the sale and purchase agreement for TT plot has a proviso in it that Emaar can't build anything over a certain height in the plot in front? I'm guessing not and even if Emaar provided verbal assurances, the UK mis-selling rules surely can't be applied as the plots were sold in Dubai. Like I said, maybe I'm missing something...

Do you remember this email we had in March 2007 from Emaar

"I cannot confirm anything at this stage as the project no longer belongs to Emaar. We might manage the towers but do not own it. It now belongs to a third party."

Then

"The third party has a right to change anything and everything they want from our initial plans. I am not in a position to give comments on this project."

That third party was Sheikh Mohammed.

He then gifted it to DAS Holding.

DAS Holdings then came up with Marina Sky Towers in order to maximize their profits.

I think it was a bad move to close the Mystery Emaar thread personaly.

It was originaly started to stop the Torch thread from being clogged up with speculation (i believe).

Since it was closed the majority of posts on this Thread have been what would have been on the old Emaar plots thread.

Dont get me wrong these issues are important to all of us but it is just spamming up this Torch thread beyond belief. No one is discussing the Torch here anymore its all about the 14 floor podium, and tower placements.

Until all info is released on the new projects and thus ending speculation would it not be better to keep the old thread open ?

Just a thought. :)

I closed the thread and opened a new one here since it's no longer an emaar project and nothing is on hold since nothing has started.
From now on all posts relating to the plot in front will be moved to that thread.

I closed the thread and opened a new one here since it's no longer an emaar project and nothing is on hold since nothing has started.
From now on all posts relating to the plot in front will be moved to that thread.

Fair play malec. :cheers:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4838/schedulegg1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

May 2008 Internal and external painting.

This can be proven by splashing a tin of paint anywhere on the outside or inside so thats nothing important.

18th May Glass Cladding begins.

Again 1 or 2 glass samples bolted to the outside of the building and they will say they are on target.

So it looks like August 2008 will be the first time it can be factualy stated that Select Property can be said to be behined schedule.

Floor 40 in 21 weeks (end of August) is laughable.

Floor 40 in 21 weeks is possible at the rate of 1 floor every 6 days given that we are already on floor 16 including the base.

Fair play malec. :cheers:


Floor 40 in 21 weeks (end of August) is laughable.

^^I agree with your comments on the other milestones but 25 floors in 21 weeks is only a floor every 6 days or so. Not so laughable IMO.

Floor 40 in 21 weeks is possible at the rate of 1 floor every 6 days given that we are already on floor 16 including the base.

^^ I must learn to type faster !

Can some one divide 60 by 41 :lol:

Anyone wants to increase the bet? :dunno: :banana:

Anyone wants a wager that they will not reach floor 75 by Feb 09? :dunno:

Do you think DS / SG directors would have a wager with me on this? :horse:

Floor 40 in 21 weeks is possible at the rate of 1 floor every 6 days given that we are already on floor 16 including the base.

I agree it's possible,

If they are not doing a floor every 6 days in the relative cool of winter what is going to change to speed things up in the summer heat ?

Steve where do you get that fancy graphic you post showing the apartment towers soon to complete ?

Like I said before many times, we need a few magicians and may be a few clowns to implement the newly thought rescue plan.

OH Yes and we need to cancel Ramadan, Eid, Xmas and reduce the temp in May, June, July and August.

Any body good at praying?

You guys are funny :horse::hilarious:hilarious

Where is Morris, I could do with a really good laugh. I am sure he will have a plan :cheers:

Hi Mark,

Perhaps I'm missing something but could you please elaborate on how DS could potentially have a claim against EMAAR?

Do you believe that the sale and purchase agreement for TT plot has a proviso in it that Emaar can't build anything over a certain height in the plot in front? I'm guessing not and even if Emaar provided verbal assurances, the UK mis-selling rules surely can't be applied as the plots were sold in Dubai. Like I said, maybe I'm missing something...

Sure. Emaar sold the Torch plot to Torch Select, the DS subsidiary that's building The Torch. It's likely that DS asked them for undertakings about what would be built on surrounding plots, since they're the master developer of the marina and such things would impact on the value of the plot DS were buying.

Had Emaar given them undertakings not to build anything above 18 floors, which they later reneged on, DS may well be entitled to claim damages from them for ay losses arising from this breach - for instance, compensating buyers of what ought to have been marina-view apartments that turned out not to be.

I'm with Mackie. The Torch won't reach 75 floors in Feb 2009 - it'll be another six months at least, possibly 12. Add six months to a year for fit-out and I'd be surprised if the place is occupied before 2010.

2011 and soon I will be giving the boys here Jan. for free if it remains a floor a week.:banana:

Our current bet is 1st Jan 2011 keys in hand. Anything before this they get £200 from me.

Come back Morris, I really missed him lately :cheers:

End of Feb 2009 is theoretically possible for floor 75 if nothing ever goes wrong and they can achieve 1 floor consistently every 5.5 days.

There are 328 day until Feb 28 and 59 floors remaining to get to floor 75.

328/59 = 5.5 days per floor.

They are achieving 1 floor consistently every 7 days now but speed still has room to improve as they get more efficient and more workers are coming.

Steve where do you get that fancy graphic you post showing the apartment towers soon to complete ?

I got them from this man :D

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/customavatars/avatar126_4.gif

End of Feb 2009 is theoretically possible for floor 75 if nothing ever goes wrong and they can achieve 1 floor consistently every 5.5 days.

There are 328 day until Feb 28 and 59 floors remaining to get to floor 75.

328/59 = 5.5 days per floor.

They are achieving 1 floor consistently every 7 days now but speed still has room to improve as they get more efficient and more workers are coming.

Morris will be very proud of you covering for him while he is away :lol:

Hi Mackie and the gang..............I'm back :banana:

Updates taken yesterday 5th April:

http://i32.tinypic.com/2emopsl.jpg

http://i27.tinypic.com/30t1mgw.jpg

http://i25.tinypic.com/9bi0lt.jpg

http://i28.tinypic.com/29cvt6q.jpg

http://i32.tinypic.com/2i6pbh4.jpg

http://i27.tinypic.com/jafm20.jpg

http://i27.tinypic.com/24o0mbo.jpg

http://i31.tinypic.com/2nisnp.jpg

Morris will be very proud of you covering for him while he is away :lol:

I'm probably way off the mark here but could it actually be possible that Morris has a life outside of SSC? :cheers: Can't believe I muddled through life without visiting here for 3 days.

But then again, don't SP have a new development launch coming up. Maybe he's debating hard with his colleagues on whether to use the word 'unobstructed' or 'unparalleled' in the marketing material.

Spooky or what - he beat me to the click by seconds :banana:

Back with a bang - thanks for the photos!

Welcome back Morris :hug:

Thanks for sharing the photos.

Yes SSC is addictive but its also good when I am stuck at Airports a lot of the time. :cheers:

I got them from this man :D

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/customavatars/avatar126_4.gif


WOW !

I didnt know Jesus was a scyscraper fan.

I feel so much better knowing The holy one is on team Torch.

Perhaps he could have a word with his dad about those evil people proposing to build 3 100 story chimney stacks infront of the Torch.

Great photos, Morris! many thanks

ENJOY.................


Sorry if i have missed anyone out in the credits.

Excellent Video HT, well done. :cheers:

Looking at floor 7 they are putting the dividing walls in the one and two bed units. But.......:omg: it looks nearly 3 feet thick !!!

Surely a simple plaster board type wall be sufficient, anybody any idea what's going on here ?? :weird:

Looking at floor 7 they are putting the dividing walls in the one and two bed units. But.......:omg: it looks nearly 3 feet thick !!!

Surely a simple plaster board type wall be sufficient, anybody any idea what's going on here ?? :weird:

Welcome back Morris- Good Holiday? Thanks for the update.

I think the internal walls are in fact plasterboard. The blocking on the end maybe asthetic or to mount the windows/cladding. I zoomed in on one of your pics and you can clearly see the internal wall before the blocking on the end.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3045/2391515513_afdafb2aed.jpg?v=0

Hi Anjam, yes had a fantastic two weeks holiday thanks. (Got back late last night to snow in the UK !! ) Could not post whilst over there though as I don't have a laptop. Thanks for explaining the dividing wall, I was getting worried thinking I was going to lose 20% of my apartment with the depth of that wall. :lol:

End of Feb 2009 is theoretically possible for floor 75 if nothing ever goes wrong and they can achieve 1 floor consistently every 5.5 days.

There are 328 day until Feb 28 and 59 floors remaining to get to floor 75.

328/59 = 5.5 days per floor.

They are achieving 1 floor consistently every 7 days now but speed still has room to improve as they get more efficient and more workers are coming.


Not to forget the floor plates get smaller after about floor 25 or so. That should make one floor every 5 days possible, but doubt they ever do better than a floor a week

Kebab 2.0

edited by malec: New render of Marina Sky Towers can be seen here (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=601617&page=3)

Another floor was poured yesterday evening ... 8.5 days since the last one I believe.

They normally pour on Tuesday, last one poured on Monday. Still average 7 days I think.

Big improvement needed if they are going to meet their own shedule and see floor 40 by August.

Took a look at prices out of interest to see what is going on with the Torch.

Better homes are currently marketing the Torch between Dhs 1260 and 1700 psf.

Looks like there are a few bargains on the market at the moment, with the scare of loosing the view etc., 1260 psf for a 1 bed is probably the cheapest unit in the marina right now !

What could possibly justify the differences in price as all units are now the same.

Surrounded on all sides by towers with no decent views?

Most of those units have been on BH webite for ages now and havn't sold.

^^ I wonder why there is no demand in the resale market for the Torch :dunno: Emaar can sell at 4000 psf and need crowd control for the 1000s of buyes lining up even though completion will be later than the Torch.

TT is too far off completion for the re-sale market to be vibrant. Things should change once the building tops out but at the moment the project still carries some degree of risk.

I would say looking at Marina Heights re-sale values gives a better indication given that they will have no views either.

I found this listing:

2 BR MARINA HEIGHTS Property ID: 0148
Location: - Dubai Marina Type: Apartment
Rooms: 2 Unit #:
Size / Area: 1,200 sq.ft Price: AED 2,163,000

I have 2 bed in the Torch (on a high floor) also 1200 sq ft which cost just over AED 1,300,000 so the MH apt is valued 62% higher at this point in time.

Small Developer--------> No track record -----------> Al Arifi !!!

I hear you say but there are others like Zumurd.........They seem to have a good track record.

the MH apt is valued 62% higher at this point in time.

So investor demand for resale in the Torch should be high, not non-existent. :nuts: There is a proven capital gain to be had.

Yet no doubt the units in the kebap shop in front will sell out fast at double the price of torch units but complete 4 years later. :weird:

So investor demand for resale in the Torch should be high, not non-existent. :nuts:

Why should demand be high in a project which is still in it's infancy, where lots can still go wrong and as Mackie said, the developer has no track record etc...:nuts:

^^ So according to your logic, the only reason the resale price of the Torch is the lowest in the entire marina is because Select Property have no track record.

Then explain why Bay Central and Botanica sold out very quickly at a much higher price than the current Torch resale prices :nuts:

Unless DCE goes under, TT is going to be built. Unlike Arifi who had no fixed contract with the builders, DS do.

But you are right on the prices, some late investors will make a killing.

Reasons why the Torch resale prices will go up in the short term:

1. Inflation. A rising market.
2. Time to completion reducing. Once the glass cladding goes on we will see a glimpse of the finished product.
3. possibility of next door project being priced at 2-3K psf
4. Marina Heights is a good price guide for a finished apartment, so you can guage the premium.

Given that the Torch has a high proportion of UK buyers the credit crunch is probably having an effect. ie people looking for a quick sale.

People don't want to buy re-sale if 90% of the money has been paid to the developer and the tower is still 2 years away from completion (i.e. when they can get bank finance). I don't know whether DS offers re-sale buyers the non-status long-term repayment plan? If they don't, that is why their developments sell out but cannot be re-sold easily prior to completion.

One thing I have noticed in Dubai is everyone wants to pay for things gradually, few people want to pay 100% cash. Mortgaged purchases are now around 70% of all deals on completed properties, or so I am told. It makes sense, there aren't many people who have £250,000+ sitting around doing nothing in the bank!

Everything will start moving when it is finished or just before it is.

^^ So according to your logic, the only reason the resale price of the Torch is the lowest in the entire marina is because Select Property have no track record.

Then explain why Bay Central and Botanica sold out very quickly at a much higher price than the current Torch resale prices :nuts:

Mate, no offence but you should read people's posts carefully before you reply. If you read my posts I didn't say that SP's record was the 'only reason'

It's far too early for a thriving re-sale market in TT. As others have also said, things should really pick up as the building gets nearer to completion. Also, Tractor is absolutely right with his point re. financing.

People don't want to buy re-sale if 90% of the money has been paid to the developer and the tower is still 2 years away from completion (i.e. when they can get bank finance). I don't know whether DS offers re-sale buyers the non-status long-term repayment plan? If they don't, that is why their developments sell out but cannot be re-sold easily prior to completion.

One thing I have noticed in Dubai is everyone wants to pay for things gradually, few people want to pay 100% cash. Mortgaged purchases are now around 70% of all deals on completed properties, or so I am told. It makes sense, there aren't many people who have £250,000+ sitting around doing nothing in the bank!

Everything will start moving when it is finished or just before it is.

I agree Tractor. It will all be OK in the end with this building and the values of the units.

I was new to the game and stupid 2 years ago and I had the cash so I opted for the short term payment plan. I also as a newbie with very little knowledge and no research done believed that the building might complete by June 2008 (ha ha!) as SP were stating at the time. Having 90% of my cash tied up now and being a lot more savvy I now realise this was a big mistake. I should have budgeted for the delay - i.e. a long period receiving no rental return to cover repayments, but opted for the 15 year payment plan and used my cash to buy 2 or even 3 units. I am a lot wiser now and look for a more investor friendly payment set up when I buy. I guess it makes sense. For the long term I'm not at all worried about the eventual value of the units in the Torch - they will be as good as anywhere else. Unless you paid an awful lot of money for it -and I personally think that the premium for a view was not that high in the Torch (others may disagree) - I don't think the loss of a view will be that much of an issue in the end.

Given that the Torch has a high proportion of UK buyers the credit crunch is probably having an effect. ie people looking for a quick sale.

People don't want to buy re-sale if 90% of the money has been paid to the developer and the tower is still 2 years away from completion (i.e. when they can get bank finance). I don't know whether DS offers re-sale buyers the non-status long-term repayment plan? If they don't, that is why their developments sell out but cannot be re-sold easily prior to completion.

Both you guys are spot on here with your comments.

I think many investors are nervous of their own financial situation in the UK. I would bet that many people borrowed equity on their houses to fund 30% of their payments to SP and are now on the long payment plan. The UK credit market and delays in Dubai plus the news that the Torch is now burried behined 1200 ft of concrete and steel is making people think again at their position im sure.

As a developer SP should start to offer to buy back property from clients as they could make a killing here.

Are they strong enough to back their own project and put their money where their mouth is ?

I doubt it.

Small Developer--------> No track record -----------> Al Arifi !!!

I hear you say but there are others like Zumurd.........They seem to have a good track record.

Bin Hamoodah (Zumurud) is not small developer,bigger then the Dubai Select:)

from the website:

BIN HAMOODAH PROPERTIES is a real estate development and leasing company which established 1980, part of the Bin Hamoodah Group of companies one of the most prominent business groups in the United Arab Emirates and key player in regional business.

We own, manage and lease properties in the cities of Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Sharjah and our development projects continue to provide quality residential, commercial and retail space at affordable prices which appeal to a broad range of customers.

Our property portfolio includes hundreds of apartments, offices and retail outlets available in the cities of Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Sharjah for leasing purposes.

Over the past decade, we have captured a major section of the local market by developing exceptional property offerings that include state of the art facilities competing the best in the UAE.

Our portfolio also includes a state of Art Hotels in the city of Abu Dhabi.

Hi,

Was anything critical posted on pages 296 and 297 as I can't view them for some reason?

Whilst I have also been totally gutted about the potential 100 storey towers (we had been told that SP had been shown the draft plans for the Emaar plot and it was an attractive development of 30 - 40 storey towers along the same lines as Phase 1!), I was walking along the front of the Yacht Club yesterday and was surprised to see that not only to the apartments facing the road across to Marina Pinnacle get excellent sea views, but a fair number of sea facing apartments are clearly visible at the side of the Princess. I didn't buy on the sea facing side as I thought that given the size and proximity of the Princess Tower there would certainly not be any sea views, but this is not the case.

Given this, I choose to try and remain optimistic and will just have to wait and see what happens to my 'unrivalled marina views' and still hope that I will get a glimpse of water! The benefits of the Arcade and the proximity to hotels will still in my opinion make this a desirable development. The biggest downside in my opinion is that I will still have to face a noisy, unsightly construction site for a long period after the Torch has been handed over when I had hoped that the development at this end of the marina would be complete and fully landscaped.

^^ Yes it is a real shame that the original Emaar plans were not kept, would have been so much nicer for the area and more in keeping with marina living. Unfortunately the rumour is that Sheikh Mo is the one that messed up here.

Give my regards to your parents Victoria, I hope they enjoy the palm villa you kindly gave them. :D

^^Thanks for trying to cheer us up but you have failed miserably :nuts:

@Imre;

I agree with you but they are a small developer when comparing with Emaar, Nakeel...etc.

Just for clarification: Mackie's "gratitude" post was directed toward V & D and not ... DS

What is the reason Infinity resale prices start from 1900 psf whereas Torch resale starts from 1260 psf ?

Surely much less risk involved with with Torch ?

^^ Much less views and atractivenes in design also.

I'm sure the reason TT re-sales are lowly priced is the complete lack of local mortgage finance. Apparantly Mashreq are the only bank lending on TT at the moment but this is restricted only to overseas purchasers.
I'm fairly sure the long term payment plan is transferrable as I saw a recent sales advert for a one bed in Gulf News the other week saying it was available. However I have a feeling that this this would only be at the original price and any premium I'm sure would have to be financed by cash.
So difficult to buy a TT unit at the moment unless you're cash rich.
Once completed then I would expect all Dubai banks to be lending on such a prestigous tower and no doubt prices will rocket. So......if you can have plenty of cash available or are an ex-Pat who qualifies for the mortgage loan then fill your boots now. :)

This is a case of a photographer photographing another photographer. The following pictures were taken by Hans van de Vorst from the Netherlands at the Grand Canyon, Arizona. The descriptions are his own. The identity of the photographer in the photos is unknown.

http://i32.tinypic.com/no82vn.jpg


I was simply stunned seeing this guy standing on this solitary rock in the Grand Canyon.

The canyon's depth is 900 meters here. The rock on the right is next to the canyon and safe.

Watching this guy on his thong sandals, with a camera and a tripod I asked myself 3 questions:

1. How did he climb that rock?

2. Why not take that sunset picture from that rock to the right, which is perfectly safe?

3. How will he get back?

After the sun set behind the canyon's horizon he packed his things (having only one hand available) and prepared himself for the jump.
This took about 2 minutes. At that point he had the full attention of the crowd.

http://i30.tinypic.com/ws7oqw.jpg



This is the point of no return.
After that, he jumped on his thong sandals...
The canyon's depth is 900 meters (3,000 feet) here.

http://i31.tinypic.com/2q8ovu8.jpg


Now you can see that the adjacent rock is higher so he tried to land lower, which is quite steep and tried to use his one hand to grab the rock.
http://i30.tinypic.com/29p3vom.jpg


Look carefully at the photographer.
He has a camera, a tripod and also a plastic bag, all on his shoulder or in his left hand.
Only his right hand is available to grab the rock and the weight of his stuff is a problem.
He lands low on his flip-flops, and both his right foot and right hand slip away....
At that moment I take this shot. He pushes his body against the rock
He waits a few seconds, throws his stuff onto the rock, climbs the rock and walks away !!!!!

I,M FRIGHTENED SITTING BEHIND MY DESK TOP !!

OMG this cannot be true.

Incredible! So you've just discovered the perfect shot. It only requires you to hop a couple meters across a giant canyon. Ok, that was foolish but doable. So you find yourself on this perfect spot and you get the perfect shots. Oh-oh, you realize now it was easier to jump down from the higher rock than it will be to jump back up. What do you do? Wait for an emergency team? At least you ditch your tripod and camera--just keep the memory card or film--remove your flip flops, and then make full use of your hands and feet to latch onto the higher rock. All the butterflies in this guys stomach on realizing his mistake probably also interfered with his ability to think rationally.

Did anyone find out whether the exterior treatment of The Torch has been altered. I believe the last construction schedule mentioned "painting" and "glass" but didn't mention any "aluminium" fixing specifically. Are we to assume that they just didn't think it was worth mentioning or that something has changed and "Aluminium" will now be "painted concrete." Is that even possible; - as someone who knows nothing about these things it would seem a bit unlikely?

Mackie, I know you are dissapointed about loosing your views from the Torch, But less of the 900 meter cliff jumping thoughts, please

It's not worth it.:)


Nice story. btw

it looks ugly!

it looks ugly!

Are you referring to The Grand Canyon? What does this post mean?

http://i30.tinypic.com/29p3vom.jpg

^^ so fake

http://i30.tinypic.com/29p3vom.jpg

^^ so fake

we dont even know how tall these boulders are

+ between taking the shot and jumping the guys shaved off his sideburns :lol:

The explanation at this link (http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/g/gcdaredevil.htm) suggests the images are real. But I have my doubts as the guy in the first picture appears not to be the same guy who is jumping.

Did anyone find out whether the exterior treatment of The Torch has been altered. I believe the last construction schedule mentioned "painting" and "glass" but didn't mention any "aluminium" fixing specifically. Are we to assume that they just didn't think it was worth mentioning or that something has changed and "Aluminium" will now be "painted concrete." Is that even possible; - as someone who knows nothing about these things it would seem a bit unlikely?

I am also concerned about this point.

Did anyone find out whether the exterior treatment of The Torch has been altered. I believe the last construction schedule mentioned "painting" and "glass" but didn't mention any "aluminium" fixing specifically. Are we to assume that they just didn't think it was worth mentioning or that something has changed and "Aluminium" will now be "painted concrete." Is that even possible; - as someone who knows nothing about these things it would seem a bit unlikely?

I am also concerned about this point.

If this happens I think SP would have a major problem on their hands

I have written to SP today. I'll post the response when I get it.

Here is a picture Joannides sent to the Owners group. Taken and sent via a blackberry earlier today. Not sure what the colours show.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3272/2406446400_c77c819771.jpg?v=0

I am also concerned about this point.

Ditto

+ between taking the shot and jumping the guys shaved off his sideburns :lol:

And changed his trousers and shoes.

Here is a picture Joannides sent to the Owners group. Taken and sent via a blackberry earlier today. Not sure what the colours show.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3272/2406446400_c77c819771.jpg?v=0

Great, speed is consistently fast now. Should meet the September 2009 completion date no problem for topping out at least.

Steve wots up.. have you been taking some happpy pills. :)

^^ :yes: I've got over my tantrum about the views going or partially going. :lol:

Steve I am so pleased.. more important things in life.. simple things like women!!

Great, speed is consistently fast now. Should meet the September 2009 completion date no problem for topping out at least.

This is 8 to 9 days for each floor, not good at this stage or time of year.:ohno:

Thats why i thought floor 40 by August was laughable.

Here is a picture Joannides sent to the Owners group. Taken and sent via a blackberry earlier today. Not sure what the colours show.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3272/2406446400_c77c819771.jpg?v=0

Looks to me like the colours are just an error with the photo as they are on Pinnacle as well, perhaps induced by Joan's blackberry.

The red parts are netting they've put up to prevent falling debris (at least I guess that's what they're for)

More likely to stop any rioters throwing bricks at passing cars.

The red parts are netting they've put up to prevent falling debris (at least I guess that's what they're for)

Tractor, yes, that's what they looked like to me also. For the yellow colours in the photo, it looks like some type of rafters or framework they're putting in. It looks quite substantial when you see it up close. I'm sure some of the building experts on this forum will know exactly what these are for.

Concrete being poured again ... 7 days and about 8hrs since the last one!

Thanks Tractor. We are still on track for topping out before Sept 2009 then :)

Concrete being poured again ... 7 days and about 8hrs since the last one!

Many thanks Tractor; - would that be the 11th floor of the tower above the podium?

I guess it isn't going to get much quicker than a floor a week now; they've had a few floors to get up to speed. I suppose it could get a touch quicker when the tower narrows, but otherwise not much scope for improvement it would seem. I personally will be happy enough with progress if it continues at this rate and doesn't slow down too much through the hotter weather. Maybe those faster rates which had been talked about were always unachievable.

I think something must be going right guys judging by the lack of posts slagging off TT and SP of late! It would appear there's too much to do on the Infinity thread shoring up (pardon the pun!) Cayan's reputation at present!

I think something must be going right guys judging by the lack of posts slagging off TT and SP of late! It would appear there's too much to do on the Infinity thread shoring up (pardon the pun!) Cayan's reputation at present!

Its because we are so f*****g depressed about it, nothing has changed they are still lying scum and the tower will not be handed over before 2011if we are lucky :bash::bash:

This was going to be my home :cry: :cry: :cry:

W*****rs, sorry ladies

Thanks Tractor-

We should see some facade testing soon. Did I read somewhere that the aim is for the glass and other external fittings to be 15 floors behind the core or am I imagining things?

Maybe this is why the netting has appeared?

More pics from Joan's Blackberry:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3263/2417021788_93b0ebd7cf.jpg?v=0


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3064/2417021642_48851893bd.jpg?v=0


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3064/2417021446_c7a8c8634e.jpg?v=0

No comment

This was going to be my home :cry: :cry: :cry:


Given up with Dubai Promenade beach towers then mackie ?

How many units do you have in the Torch still, 4 ?

You must still believe it is the best investment at the moment. :cheers:

Easily on track for topping out 2009.

(Now calming down from the 3 tower thud on my doorstep) I think the rate is looking slightly better than I expected. Comparing the blackberry photo on the 11th to the one above, it looks like pretty much the same stage, but a floor up on the 15th.



^^ Sorry I should have mentioned that the photos above were taken at the same time as the photo posted on the 11th.

They are consistently doing the concrete pours on a Monday or Tuesday night so definitely averaging one floor per week. I doubt this will be stepped up given the summer hot weather and in fact we'll be lucky if they can keep this momentum going - possible though as the higher floors are smaller. So we've got 67 floors to go, that's another 67 weeks, so I agree topped out by September '09 then a year for fitting takes us to Sept'10. Build in another 6 months for unplanned delays/DEWA connections etc. and handover may be March 2011. So........only three more f@@king years to go. :lol: