#UNDER C: THE TORCH, 84F Res, 338m

[Dubai_Steve]

^^ You will have to do better than that if you want your old job back Morris :bash:

They are fitting as they go. No need to add the 1 year.

[mackie1964]

2011........2011........2011........2011........2011........2011........2011........

get it

[mackie1964]

Given up with Dubai Promenade beach towers then mackie ?

How many units do you have in the Torch still, 4 ?

You must still believe it is the best investment at the moment. :cheers:

Easily on track for topping out 2009.

Giving up on Dubai all together at present.

2011........2011........2011........2011........2011........2011........2011........

get it

[thetorch]

No comment

[thetorch]

No comment

[bizzybonita]

now at 13F without podium levels

[High Times]

LIBOR rate is quoted in many different currencies. As no currency denomination is quoted in the contract SP can pick and choose whoch suits them at the time compensation is due.

At the moment they are stating Dollars.

There is no AED denomination at present but SP could try and offer you EIBOR if you are daft eough to accept it.

Current 12 month LIBOR;

Sterling 5.79%
Dollar 2.60%

Big difference as you can see.

[thetorch]

LIBOR rate is quoted in many different currencies. As no currency denomination is quoted in the contract SP can pick and choose whoch suits them at the time compensation is due.

At the moment they are stating Dollars.

There is no AED denomination at present but SP could try and offer you EIBOR if you are daft eough to accept it.

Current 12 month LIBOR;

Sterling 5.79%
Dollar 2.60%

Big difference as you can see.

No comment

[High Times]

Yes, similarly i also have e-mail confirmation that SP use Sterling LIBOR. Thats why i was shocked when i asked again after Morris was mentioning Dollar LIBOR.

In the contract it does only state LIBOR.

In a court action i think we would struggle as the way SP layer their companies is difficult to pin anyone down.

We have contracts with Torch Select LLP in Dubai and they make the decision on what compenstion if any to pay.

SP based in Cheshire are effectively only a sales office based in the UK. One that tends to provide missleading information only.

I agree that a UK judge would probably rule in our favour based on communications recieved on the specific questions of compensation rates. But he would have no durastiction on inforcing a ruling against a Dubai based company.

SP will just say "thats what we were told by Torch Select LLP at the time".

Just like they will say "thats what we were told by Emaar at the time" regarding tower heights on the plots in front".

I made a big mistake by not insisting that STERLING LIBOR was in the contract.

Still you live and learn

[Mistermark]

Does anyone know if there's a Dirham LIBOR? Although the Dirham is linked to the Dollar the LIBOR could be at a higher (or lower) rate for the Dirham due to the risk/opportunity of it becoming delinked to the Dollar at some stage.

Since the contract is in Dirhams, unless it mentions a currency for the LIBOR compensation, I'm guessing it'll be the Dirham one?

[FWIW]

Mistermark - LIBOR is defined here:
http://www.bba.org.uk/bba/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=141&a=11948

As HT has already said it is against multiple,major currencies:
Namely the EUR,USD,GBP,JPY,CHF,CAD,AUD,DKK,NZD,and SEK.

As the AED is pegged to USD the only logical step would be for SP to use the USD rate.

As per TheTorch's email where it states:
The payments are calculated daily, each day that completion is late, at a rate of 1% above the London Interbank Offer Rate on any money you have paid towards the purchase price up to that point.

Therefore if we lookup 8th april's LIBOR rate for USD (from April spreadsheet), we will see it is 2.63625. Therefore, SP would add 1% to that so the rate would become 3.63625 and use that to compensate against money we have deposited. They would repeat this process daily for every day that is deemed late.

Now that is what I belive should happen - I will keep watching to see what really happens, as the Torch development would be first SP project to test this area.

[High Times]

As per TheTorch's email where it states:
The payments are calculated daily, each day that completion is late, at a rate of 1% above the London Interbank Offer Rate on any money you have paid towards the purchase price up to that point.

Therefore if we lookup 8th april's LIBOR rate for USD (from April spreadsheet), we will see it is 2.63625. Therefore, SP would add 1% to that so the rate would become 3.63625 and use that to compensate against money we have deposited. They would repeat this process daily for every day that is deemed late.

I dont want to appear to be pedantic but reading your post it sounded like you think SP would pay 3.6% (US LIBOR +1%), on what's been paid to date (AED), each and every day until handover.

Is that what your saying ?

Construction construction. Tower tower, Building building. :)

[FWIW]

I dont want to appear to be pedantic but reading your post it sounded like you think SP would pay 3.6% (US LIBOR +1%), on what's been paid to date (AED), each and every day until handover.

Is that what your saying ?

Construction construction. Tower tower, Building building. :)

Yes - that is my current understanding from what thetorch has posted. I may be wrong, happy to hear from people that have 1st hand knowledge of how this will work.:)

The reason I am watching what happens here at The Torch is that I want to see what happens in practice. As you know I am invested in Bay Central and hope that my appartment is ready as per my contract. If it is delayed, I think SP would pull out all the stops to get it done before penalty clause kicks in.

On a related topic regarding LIBOR - this makes scary reading:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120831164167818299.html?mod=hpp_us_pageone

LIBOR FOG
Bankers Cast Doubt
On Key Rate Amid Crisis
By CARRICK MOLLENKAMP
April 16, 2008; Page A1

LONDON -- One of the most important barometers of the world's financial health could be sending false signals.

In a development that has implications for borrowers everywhere, from Russian oil producers to homeowners in Detroit, bankers and traders are expressing concerns that the London inter-bank offered rate, known as Libor, is becoming unreliable.
[chart]

Libor plays a crucial role in the global financial system. Calculated every morning in London from information supplied by banks all over the world, it's a measure of the average interest rate at which banks make short-term loans to one another. Libor provides a key indicator of their health, rising when banks are in trouble. Its influence extends far beyond banking: The interest rates on trillions of dollars in corporate debt, home mortgages and financial contracts reset according to Libor.

In recent months, the financial crisis sparked by subprime-mortgage problems has jolted banks and sent Libor sharply upward. The growing suspicions about Libor's veracity suggest that banks' troubles could be worse than they're willing to admit.

The concern: Some banks don't want to report the high rates they're paying for short-term loans because they don't want to tip off the market that they're desperate for cash. The Libor system depends on banks to tell the truth about their borrowing rates. Fibbing by banks could mean that millions of borrowers around the world are paying artificially low rates on their loans. That's good for borrowers, but could be very bad for the banks and other financial institutions that lend to them.

True Borrowing Costs

No specific evidence has emerged that banks have provided false information about borrowing rates, and it's possible that declines in lending volumes are making some Libor averages less reliable. But bankers and other market participants have quietly expressed concerns to the British Bankers' Association, which oversees Libor, about whether banks are reporting rates that reflect their true borrowing costs, according to a person familiar with the matter and to government documents. The BBA is now investigating to identify potential problems, the person says.

Questions about Libor were raised as far back as November, at a Bank of England meeting in which United Kingdom banks, the firms that process bank trades and central bank officials discussed the recent financial turmoil. According to minutes of the meeting, "several group members thought that Libor fixings had been lower than actual traded interbank rates through the period of stress." In a recent report, two economists at the Bank for International Settlements, a sort of central bank for central bankers, also expressed concerns that banks might report inaccurate rate quotes.

On the Agenda
[icon] RESOURCES

• Libor Loan Tutorial
• Libor Rate Mortgage Loans and more
• Calculator: Fixed Rate Mortgage vs. LIBOR ARM

A spokesman for the BBA, John Ewan, said the trade group is monitoring the situation. "We want to ensure that our rates are as accurate as possible, so we are closely watching the rates banks contribute," Mr. Ewan said. "If it is deemed necessary, we will take action to preserve the reputation and standing in the market of our rates." Libor is expected to be on the agenda of a bankers' association board meeting on Wednesday.

In a recent research report on potential problems with Libor, Scott Peng, an interest-rate strategist at Citigroup Inc. in New York, wrote that "the long-term psychological and economic impacts this could have on the financial market are incalculable." Mr. Peng estimates that if banks provided accurate data about their borrowing costs, three-month Libor would be higher by as much as 0.3 percentage points.

A small increase in Libor can make a big difference for borrowers. For example, an extra 0.3 percentage points would add about $100 to the monthly payment on a $500,000 adjustable-rate mortgage, or $300,000 in annual interest costs for a company with $100 million in floating-rate debt. On Tuesday, the Libor rate for three-month dollar loans stood at 2.716%.

Libor has become such a fixture in credit markets that many people trust it implicitly. Concerns about its reliability are "actually kind of frightening if you really sit and think about it," says Chris Freemott, a Naperville, Ill., mortgage banker who depends on Libor to tell him how much his firm, All America Mortgage Corp., owes First Tennessee bank for a credit line that he uses to make loans.

The Libor system was developed in the 1980s. Banks were looking for a benchmark that would allow them to set rates on syndicated debt -- corporate loans that typically carry interest rates that adjust according to prevailing short-term rates. By pegging lending rates to Libor, which is supposed to represent the rate banks charge each other for loans, banks sought to guarantee that the interest rates their clients pay never fall too far below their own cost of borrowing.
[chart]

Banks typically set their lending rates at a certain "spread" above Libor: A company with decent credit, for example, might pay an interest rate of Libor plus one-half percentage point. A risky "subprime" mortgage loan might carry an interest rate of Libor plus more than six percentage points.

Today, Libor rates are set for 15 different loan durations -- from overnight to one year -- and in 10 currencies, including the pound, the dollar, the euro and the Swedish krona. They serve as the basis for payments on trillions of dollars in corporate loans, mortgages and student loans. Libor rates are also used to set the terms of more than $500 trillion in "derivatives" contracts such as interest-rate swaps, which companies all over the world, including U.S. mortgage guarantors Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, use to protect themselves against sudden shifts in the difference between long-term and short-term interest rates.

When banks want to borrow money, they contact banks directly or phone a loan broker, such as ICAP PLC in London. Much of the interbank lending takes place between 7 a.m. and 11 a.m. London time. In broker speak, a bank might ask for a "yard" -- one billion in a designated currency. Brokers communicate with bank clients by phone or through desktop voice boxes, which are faster. At ICAP, brokers track bids and offers by looking up at a big whiteboard above the trading floor, where a "board boy" posts information. The actual rates at which banks borrow from each other are known only to the lenders and borrowers, and possibly to their brokers.

Every morning by 11:10 London time, "panels" of banks send data to Reuters Group PLC, a London-based business-data and news company, on what it would cost them to borrow a "reasonable amount" in a designated currency. The dollar Libor panel, for example, consists of 16 banks, including U.S. banks Bank of America Corp. and J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. and U.K. banks HBOS PLC and HSBC Holdings PLC. Reuters uses the reported borrowing rates to calculate Libor "fixings." To reduce the possibility that any bank could manipulate an average by reporting a false number, Reuters throws out the highest and lowest groups of quotes before calculating averages.

Justin Abel, global head of data operations for Reuters, said in a statement that his company's role is solely to calculate fixings based on the information provided by banks. "It is their data alone we distribute. Reuters is purely the facilitator," he said.

Wary of Lending

The global financial crisis that began last summer has made it more difficult for banks to package and sell all kinds of loans as securities, as well as to issue bonds and short-term IOUs to investors. Increasingly, banks have turned to the interbank market to borrow cash. But their mounting losses on mortgage securities and other investments have raised fears that a major institution could go bust. That's made banks increasingly wary of lending to one another.
[Calculating Libor]

Such jitters have made many banks unwilling to extend loans to each other for more than one week. As a result, the rates they quote for loans of three months or more are often speculative, because there's little to no actual lending for that time period, brokers say. "It amounts to an average best guess," says Don Smith, an economist at ICAP, the London broker of interbank loans and derivatives.

These bank problems are proving costly to other kinds of borrowers around the world. One way to measure the rough cost is by comparing the three-month Libor rate with an interest rate that doesn't reflect worries about banks' financial health -- such as the yield on a three-month Treasury bill, which is backed by the U.S. government. The gap between the two stood at 1.58 percentage points Tuesday, and has averaged 1.39 percentage points since the crisis began in August. In the five years before the financial crisis started, it averaged only 0.28 percentage points.

Citigroup's Mr. Peng believes banks could be understating even those abnormally high Libor rates. He notes that the Federal Reserve recently auctioned off $50 billion in one-month loans to banks for an average annualized interest rate of 2.82% -- 0.1 percentage point higher than the comparable Libor rate. Because banks put up securities as collateral for the Fed loans, they should get them for a lower rate than Libor, which is riskier because it involves no collateral. By comparing Libor with that indicator and others -- such as the rate on three-month bank deposits known as the Eurodollar rate -- Mr. Peng estimates Libor may be understated by 0.2 to 0.3 percentage points.

Other Benchmarks

In one sign of increasing concern about Libor, traders and banks are considering using other benchmarks to calculate interest rates, according to several traders. Among the candidates: rates set by central banks for loans, and rates on so-called repurchase agreements, under which borrowers provide banks with securities as collateral for short-term loans.

In a report published in March by the Bank for International Settlements, economists Jacob Gyntelberg and Philip Wooldridge raised concerns that banks might report incorrect rate information. The report said that banks might have an incentive to provide false rates to profit from derivatives transactions. The report said that although the practice of throwing out the lowest and highest groups of quotes is likely to curb manipulation, Libor rates can still "be manipulated if contributor banks collude or if a sufficient number change their behaviour."

Write to Carrick Mollenkamp at carrick.mollenkamp@wsj.com

[Dubai_Steve]

oh god, not that boring Libor debate again :goodnight

[Dubai_Steve]

Is the compensation transferable with a resale ? :lol:

That would pay for my interest payments on my 85% mortgage I may be getting, making it a fantastic deal at 15% down nothing to pay until completion :)

[Dubai_Steve]

I expect the Torch marina views will be similar to Krazy's sea view like this but also with an open view to the left and ride sides. I think 06, Infinity / GH facing units should get the more open views now.

http://i25.tinypic.com/xdgifa.jpg

Any ideas when we will be getting more info on the Marina Sky Towers, looking forward to see how they will be exactly.

[thetorch]

oh god, not that boring Libor debate again :goodnight

No comment

[High Times]

As per TheTorch's email where it states:
The payments are calculated daily, each day that completion is late, at a rate of 1% above the London Interbank Offer Rate on any money you have paid towards the purchase price up to that point.

Therefore if we lookup 8th april's LIBOR rate for USD (from April spreadsheet), we will see it is 2.63625. Therefore, SP would add 1% to that so the rate would become 3.63625 and use that to compensate against money we have deposited. They would repeat this process daily for every day that is deemed late.

Yes - that is my current understanding from what thetorch has posted. I may be wrong, happy to hear from people that have 1st hand knowledge of how this will work.:)

Much as i would like you to be correct.

I think compensation will be;

The rate = (LIBOR +1%)

Calculated on the total of payments made at (the rate) annualised, but maybe paid pro rata on a daily basis.

If they pay (the rate) on the total of payments made on a daily basis then they can take forever to finish the tower as far as I'm concerned.

The key point here is that whatever rate compensation is paid at it is an annual rate not a daily rate as your post suggests.

I'm not trying to split hairs but it makes a lot of difference when reading it and i wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong idea.

Is there any chance of a picture anyone, I'm starting to get the sheiks.

[malec]

Giving up on Dubai all together at present.

2011........2011........2011........2011........2011........2011........2011........

get it

He said topping out by end of 2009 which is definitely possible, not completion which should be 2011

[shaffar]

I knew I shouldn't have mentioned the dreaded LIBOR again.

I like the example Steve of the potential view example. Do you not think the three towers might be closer than this example though?


Mention what ever you want.:)


That spacing seems about right, might even be slightly farther apart.

One thing for sure, all marina facing apartments have been had.

[True Blue]

No more on the LIBOR thing please! Beaten by the tic and having to read endless LIBOR posts is making me want to shoot myself. >(

[FWIW]

^^ OK! :lol:

[AltinD]

Good, the case was sorted out. Now back to pouring of the next floor. :yes:

[Anjam]

Altin> You will have to wait till Tuesday!

[Yousuf27]

Re the recent discussion as to whether aluminium may have been removed from the cladding spec (arising from the recent construction timeline update) I received a note from SP to say there have been no changes to the spec of the building and the additional note:-

As the developer wishes to continue to prosper in Dubai, it is in no parties’ interest to cut cost and I can re-assure you the quality of the build will be as promised.

[Anjam]

Re the recent discussion as to whether aluminium may have been removed from the cladding spec (arising from the recent construction timeline update) I received a note from SP to say there have been no changes to the spec of the building and the additional note:-

As the developer wishes to continue to prosper in Dubai, it is in no parties’ interest to cut cost and I can re-assure you the quality of the build will be as promised.

It's un-nerving how SP have gone from "We wish to continue......" to " The developer wishes to continue......"

Sounds like the Apprentice candidates passing the buck !

[Dubai_Steve]

So they assured the quality of the build, that's fine, but they did not confirm the Aluminium cladding ?

[Yousuf27]

So they assured the quality of the build, that's fine, but they did not confirm the Aluminium cladding ?

Sorry maybe I didn't put it very well - the quote was only an additional footnote to their reply to me. I had asked specifically as to whether the Aluminium had been dropped because only "glass" and "paint" appeared on the timeline they issued. In response I received:-

I can confirm that nothing has changed from the original specification!

SP's contention that it is not the Developer and is merely a sales and marketing arm for the Developer does seem to be a big cop out, but as has been stated here before the "layering" technique in such organisations is not at all unusual. I work for an offshore company which my contract says is a manning agent for the establsihment where I actually work. Funny old thing the manning agent is a brass name plate in Guernsey and it has no assets whatsoever. Handy when an employee has a claim against his employer. I imagine SP is well protected from it's clients!

If we pondered too much over these things I guess we wouldn't be doing what we're doing.

[Dubai_Steve]

I would'nt worry about it. I think it works quite well that Select Property do the sales and customer support, payments management, resales, rentals, furniture packs, bookings etc. based in the UK and the Dubai company handles the development and supervision. I am quite pleased to have that level of support in the UK around the development. I would feel uneasy buying in Dubai without it now after the horror stories you hear from other developers like Tiger where they do not answer the phone etc.

[Yousuf27]

I agree entirely. It's better to have this set up than not; - I have normally found it helpful. There is one particular lady handling contracts who I've found to be one of the best Customer Service operatives I've dealt with in any company. Despite the "party lines" that are trotted out which can be pretty infuriating when you know that they continue to quote dates that can't possibly be achieved, the rest of the support provided works pretty well.

[Dubai_Steve]

I think what is happening here is that DCE are sticking to Sept 2009 as the named completion date, which in my opinion is possible if they fit as they go as they state, but very difficult and unlikely! The sales & support guys in the UK are giving this date out which is provided to them by DCE. You also need to ask Select Property to give you a handover date, not a completion date. Handover is usually at least 6 months later than initial completion of works by the contractor.

[marina2010]

Emaar normally only announce delays to projects one or two months before
contract completion date.Why should DS be any different?

[charlie big potatoes]

Emaar normally only announce delays to projects one or two months before
contract completion date.Why should DS be any different?

DS are no dirrerent, I spoke with them re The Points completion date 5 mins ago and they told me 18 weeks. I said you mean months but no.... def weeks.
They are absolute nuts, sooner or later they will have to come clean with another 6 month delay.

[Dubai_Steve]

Perhaps the rep misunderstands topping out with completion :D

[Morrismarina]

Hi Charlie, are you sure you didn't ask " how long do you think it will be before I top myself " :lol:

[charlie big potatoes]

[QUOTE=Dubai_Steve;19758950]Perhaps the rep misunderstands topping out with completion :D[/QUOTE

Even that couldnt happen, they couldnt first fix that building in 18 weeks.

[mackie1964]

^^Thanks for the laugh Morris,I think Steve has got your old job.

Mind you, the way the Torch prices are now climbing, I don't blame him.

It looks like we will get the AED2K /sqft we are aiming for well before completion. :banana: :cheers:

[foxy]

^^ Mackie whats your evidence? Only last week the theme du jour was how low the torch prices were.

[High Times]

SP as we all know are a very slick marketing machine. Their main problem at the moment is that they dont have anything to sell to all the potential new clients they get from their marketing.

So much so that they are begining to offer resales in existing developments to new clients (the point, bay central, the torch, botanica).

Making a small fee for the pleasure no doubt.

Resales for SP developments will only get better with each day that passes, much to some peoples dissapointment I'm sure.

[Tractor]

Does anyone really wish bad things for DS investors? Surely it is in no-one's interests for a developer to badly disappoint as it will affect Dubai sentiment more generally (as Damac has recently).

I've been recently looking for a re-sale apartment in Iris Blue and haven't seen anything with a marina view for less than 1800 aed sq/ft so far ... so the indications are great for anyone who has invested in this area, I think.

[Yousuf27]

Most oddly - and I can't imagine why - but there do seem to be a few - or at least a couple of people - who really do wish bad things for DS investors. I
wonder if at least one of them has been turned down for a job with SP, or on one of their projects, and consequently has an axe to grind!

Slightly off topic you may think, but consider for a moment - if you were an airline pilot, would you stand on the viewing platform at Heathrow and watch planes land? Sorry if that seems obscure but perhaps you can see what I'm driving at.

[mackie1964]

^^Yes, this guy True blue is probably a failed sales man, he is only jealous of our Torch. :banana:

You could also be right about him not getting the job he applied for with DS. :cheers:

I thought AGod Mars Bar analogy was the best to date but you have won by miles with your plane spotting thingy :lol:

@ Foxy;

Too difficult for me this question. Steve should answer this one, he has completed all modules in the Wilmslow School of business, same year as Morris. I was found out after two weeks and was kicked out :nuts:

@ Tractor;

As I like you, you could have a full marina view in the Torch from my lovely collection for AED1699/sqft. Hurry up, next week this will go up again :)

[True Blue]

Most oddly - and I can't imagine why - but there do seem to be a few - or at least a couple of people - who really do wish bad things for DS investors. I
wonder if at least one of them has been turned down for a job with SP, or on one of their projects, and consequently has an axe to grind!

Slightly off topic you may think, but consider for a moment - if you were an airline pilot, would you stand on the viewing platform at Heathrow and watch planes land? Sorry if that seems obscure but perhaps you can see what I'm driving at.

^^:lol:

You guys are paranoid or just have great imaginations.

[Anjam]

SP as we all know are a very slick marketing machine. Their main problem at the moment is that they dont have anything to sell to all the potential new clients they get from their marketing.

So much so that they are begining to offer resales in existing developments to new clients (the point, bay central, the torch, botanica).

Making a small fee for the pleasure no doubt.

Resales for SP developments will only get better with each day that passes, much to some peoples dissapointment I'm sure.

^^ I think they are offering investors resales to keep them interested. There is another Dubai project in the pipeline. They will probbably do what they did in RAK. Generate interest with LHB and then cross sell Pacific. I think they were even asking people to pull out of LHB after paying their booking deposit and buy in Pacific.

At the end of the day the more they sell the better it is for existing investors. Ever heard of a profit making company go bust? (Don't say Northern Rock!)

[Sheltie]

Any more pictures, my apartment must be coming up soon. Anybody else on 6th floor(which is now 12th floor) who will be my neighbours?
This is the first floor above the "timeshare" floors (sorry fractional ownership).

[Dubai_Steve]

Mind you, the way the Torch prices are now climbing, I don't blame him.

It looks like we will get the AED2K /sqft we are aiming for well before completion. :banana: :cheers:

Yes indeed it appears resale prices have started to rise recently in the Torch. I expect because construction is proceeding very well now. Select Property have just started resales and made it very easy to transfer contracts and payment plans. I noticed that 5 units have been removed from the better homes listings in the last 2 days alone! Average resale price is now 1490 AED/ft2 and climbing.

[Dubai_Steve]

Can someone explain why they need to paint if they are cladding with aluminium ?

Cladding on the building will be a mixture of aluminium and glass and will be provided by DCE. “The lead time now for glass is about 12 weeks,” says Menon. “We have a licence to use an American profile and we buy the glass locally. “But aluminium is no problem since we have our own extrusion factory in Dubai Investments Park,” he adds.

“There are very few things we don’t do in-house, but one is readymix,” admits Menon. “We buy this from firms such as RMC and Unimix.” He says that tower projects demand one readymix supplier right from the beginning: “After eight or 10 floors you need to have a hydraulic placing boom and a stationary pump. And the supplier of this boom and pump won’t allow any other supplier to pump concrete through their equipment.”

Despite the plot’s location slap bang in the heart of Dubai Marina, Menon says that he is not anticipating any problems with delivery of materials: “Three sides of this site are surrounded by an asphalted road. And once the parking floors are built, we’ll use them as a storage area for all the finishing materials to help maximise space.”

[Dubai_Steve]

Any chance of a new overhead photo from Marina Heights ? :bow:

[Tractor]

As I like you, you could have a full marina view in the Torch from my lovely collection for AED1699/sqft. Hurry up, next week this will go up again :)

Thanks, but I heard a rumour that a 100-floor wall will be built around TT to keep the chav's separate from the rest of Dubai ;)

Just playing!

[mackie1964]

^^True, they let anybody in these days :banana:

[mackie1964]

Can someone explain why they need to paint if they are cladding with aluminium ?

It will be probably partly cladded in Aluminium :)

[High Times]

Bacofoil.........:ohno:

[True Blue]

Can someone explain why they need to paint if they are cladding with aluminium ?

Moisture control.

They always paint the external surfaces of concrete and blockwork using a bitumen based coating which controls moisture and vapour. This is done prior to fitting the cladding.

If you have a/c inside and hot air outside then condensation can form on the cold internal surface which could cause damp and mould.

[foxy]

Thanks TrueBlue. Aluminating as always

[AltinD]

Moisture control.

They always paint the external surfaces of concrete and blockwork using a bitumen based coating which controls moisture and vapour. This is done prior to fitting the cladding.

If you have a/c inside and hot air outside then condensation can form on the cold internal surface which could cause damp and mould.

Obviously being bitumen-based it will be black in color, but on buildings where cladding is of stone tiles or simply painted over concrete, they use a pink colored material. Think: Grosvenor House, Atlantis etc. Any word on that?

[True Blue]

^^ Yes, thats an insulation board fitted to keep the heat out and the cool air in (sometimes designers tag it as an outsulation layer:) ). Foils and insulation boards also create a thermal gradient infront of the structure to minimise condensation.

[barry mcbarry]

Any chance of a new overhead photo from Marina Heights ? :bow:


you're a lot better looking than you used to be my friend:cheers:

[Ben40]

Hi Guys, New to this but have been reading with interest..

I have an apartment in the upper 60s floor, 01 looking out to sea, what the thoughts of a view??

[High Times]

You will get a nice view of the Palm from your balcony (looking between Princess tower and Elite residence) over the top of Le Reve.

Until they develop the land between Al Sufouh road and the beach.

[Dubai_Steve]

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/2758/torchxx4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[rgarrison]

nice shot

[Dubai_Steve]

http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/3846/marinacw8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Morrismarina]

Looks like the Barasti Bar at Le Meridien Mina Seyahi is busy as usual. :)

[High Times]

Nice too see the Torch is ahead of Princess (overall) now, is it possible to catch Pinnacle (with the problems they have there) ?

Steve, thanks for the PM but i didnt read it in time to see the show on CNN.

What was the general message coming across on the show ?

:cheers:

[Dubai_Steve]

Missed it myself, forgot to Sky+ it. You should be able to see it online in a few days. Search for Dubai at cnn.com and check the video results.

[mackie1964]

What did I miss :nuts:

[Dubai_Steve]

^^ Just an interview with Tatweer (see investment thread), nothing to do with the Torch.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/8018/torchtf6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Anjam]

From the SP website:

"Established in 2004, Dubai Select LLC is the Developer of The Torch, The Point and Bay Central. The acquisition of the new Bay Central site takes Dubai Select LLC’s number of plots under development to five, making them the largest private developer in Dubai Marina"

Which is the fifth marina plot?

1)The Torch
2) The point
3) Bay Central
4) Botanica
5) ????????

[Dubai_Steve]

^^ Aquitania ?

[Anjam]

Was Aquitania a guess? http://www.aquitainia.co.uk/.

Does Fraser Bell know something we don't?

[Dubai_Steve]

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=19537590&postcount=3858

[Anjam]

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=19537590&postcount=3858

^^Oh! I missed that. That's the fifth then. I'll go to sleep now.

[Dubai_Steve]

:wave:

[Anjam]

:wave:

But before I go to sleep- It refers to the plot being in the Marina, any idea which one it could be? Not many left.

[Dubai_Steve]

Think it is on one of the world islands not the marina, not sure yet. A mystery.

[charlie big potatoes]

Think it is on one of the world islands not the marina, not sure yet. A mystery.

This is no mystery, sp are offering deals on the world. They apparently have done a deal on France and Spain. I wish they would push to get something f...ing finished that they have started.

[billyboy360]

5th plot is Royal Oceanic.

[Tractor]

Concrete being poured this evening ... *6* days since last one!

[Dubai_Steve]

wow, superb speed!

[Tractor]

I think they can go faster, but are working to the timetable of concrete deliveries. My guess is someone is managing the cashflow.

[foxy]

^^ ??? cahflow? please explain tractor :weird:. do you mean faster = more expensive?

Anjam has your floor/my ceiling been poured yet?

[Morrismarina]

From the SP website:

"Established in 2004, Dubai Select LLC is the Developer of The Torch, The Point and Bay Central. The acquisition of the new Bay Central site takes Dubai Select LLC’s number of plots under development to five, making them the largest private developer in Dubai Marina"

Which is the fifth marina plot?

1)The Torch
2) The point
3) Bay Central
4) Botanica
5) ????????

OK guys let me explain........this information has been on the SP website for well over a year now. At this time they had launched the Torch, the Point and a few weeks before, Bay Central. Now Bay Central is actually three separate plots and each has it's own plot number. The West Tower is plot 8V, can't remember what the other two are, perhaps 8W and 8X maybe....... but there is a map showing them somewhere on the Marina Plot Map thread. So SP were saying at the time they had acquired 5 plots in the Marina thereby referring to themselves as the largest private developer in the Marina..........if measured by number of plots of course.

With Botanica the number of plots is now six. :cheers:

[thetorch]

Was Aquitania a guess? http://www.aquitainia.co.uk/.

Does Fraser Bell know something we don't?

No comment

[True Blue]

So SP were saying at the time they had acquired 5 plots in the Marina thereby referring to themselves as the largest private developer in the Marina..........if measured by number of plots of course.

With Botanica the number of plots is now six.


Cayan have 10 plots using that logic.

It must be the number of units that makes them the largest private developer as a rough count between the 3 developments comes to about 2,000 units.

[Dubai_Steve]

^^ Select have also acquired some new very large plots recently which definately puts them ahead of Cayan in total land ownership.

[Morrismarina]

Cayan have 10 plots using that logic.

It must be the number of units that makes them the largest private developer as a rough count between the 3 developments comes to about 2,000 units.

So what are the 10 plots that Cayan have in the Marina ??

[High Times]

The Torch is in there somewhere if you car to look hard enough.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6860/293ujqovg6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

A bit like doing the crossword in Stringfellows.

[Sheltie]

Which floor are we on now and anyone got any pictures?

[Anjam]

^^ ??? cahflow? please explain tractor :weird:. do you mean faster = more expensive?

Anjam has your floor/my ceiling been poured yet?

Still a few floors to go I am afraid. As far as I know DubaiDreamer's and Dr_Jimmy's floors have been poured. Sheltie's has either been poured or is the next to be poured. Morris you're up next!

Anjam

[True Blue]

So what are the 10 plots that Cayan have in the Marina ??

Dorrabay => double plot
Jewels => double plot
La Residencia => single
Plot next door => double
Silverene => double
Infinity => single

I'm not arguing status, more units equates to more customers so largest developer :okay:

[Anjam]

OK guys let me explain........this information has been on the SP website for well over a year now. At this time they had launched the Torch, the Point and a few weeks before, Bay Central. Now Bay Central is actually three separate plots and each has it's own plot number. The West Tower is plot 8V, can't remember what the other two are, perhaps 8W and 8X maybe....... but there is a map showing them somewhere on the Marina Plot Map thread. So SP were saying at the time they had acquired 5 plots in the Marina thereby referring to themselves as the largest private developer in the Marina..........if measured by number of plots of course.

With Botanica the number of plots is now six. :cheers:

Thanks Morris.

[Morrismarina]

Dorrabay => double plot
Jewels => double plot
La Residencia => single
Plot next door => double
Silverene => double
Infinity => single

I'm not arguing status, more units equates to more customers so largest developer :okay:

...........but unlike SP none of Cayan's developments are within easy walking distance of the Burj Al Arab. :lol:

[PAULDELVES]

?? Morris -- you like walking to Burj el ARAB from the Marina then ? i could run it in 15 mins perhaps (in winter) - LOL

[Beppe786]

run it in these days and your lose 2 stone in sweat

[Dubai_Steve]

Hope you have a good deodorant, Burj Al Arab have a no sweaty armpit policy.

[Dubai_Steve]

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/618/pinkyth2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Yousuf27]

It always amazes me what happens when you put a drop of water on the sand!

[malec]

By Omaro:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/liver4eva/New%20SSC/2008/April/April%2022%20Drive%20and%20shoot/Photo036.jpg

[barry mcbarry]

By Omaro:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/liver4eva/New%20SSC/2008/April/April%2022%20Drive%20and%20shoot/Photo036.jpg

nice:cheers:

[Yousuf27]

Tractor posted a floor being poured on 21 April. At a six day repeat rate another should have been poured yesterday. Can anyone verify if this happened or not?

[Tractor]

Yes, late last night ... so again 6 days (+ a few hrs) per floor at the mo.

[Yousuf27]

Yes, late last night ... so again 6 days (+ a few hrs) per floor at the mo.

Thanks for the update Tractor. I'll be happy enough if they can keep on at that rate!

[Naz UK]

Well, they need to achieve a floor every 3/4 days in order to keep on schedule. Perhaps 2 floors per week will be achieved after the first section of the tower, when it gets a bit narrower.

[Tractor]

^^ Can't be many more floors to go before the tower narrows? Anyone know which floor that is?

[High Times]

They must be on floor 18 now i think so to hit floor 40 by August (end). As per plan.

18 weeks to go so (18x7=126) 126 days to go.

22 floors to go so;
126 days / 22 floors = 5.7 days per floor.

As Naz says the floor size decreases on floor 25 (i think) this may speed things up a little but 6 days per floor is good progress i would say.

I wonder if they will keep this up through the summer.

[mackie1964]

On track for 2011

http://i27.tinypic.com/24260bd.jpg

[True Blue]

6 days per floor is good progress and far more realistic than the 4 days spouted about a year ago!

I think they have reached the 13th residential floor now or have I got it wrong again? Such an optomist :lol:

[charlie big potatoes]

Well, they need to achieve a floor every 3/4 days in order to keep on schedule. Perhaps 2 floors per week will be achieved after the first section of the tower, when it gets a bit narrower.

Progress seems real constant now. Do you think 2 a week is possible? I know it gets slightly narrower with smaller floorplate, but what about the higher it goes the more difficult getting all the plant,materials, steel and concrete shuttering up and all the waste down. I think 1 every 6 days to the top would be a great acheivment. Good luck to you all in here, things are well on the way.

[mission]

http://i28.tinypic.com/2enoz69.jpg

Today pic

[Yousuf27]

Will the "sticky" 100 N/mm2 concrete be difficult to pump up as the tower gets higher? Is there a risk that this could cause problems ands slow things down? I have no "specialist knowledge" but am just recalling all the trumpeting about this super strong, never-used-before mix and the associated issues with it's "stickiness" - from a while back.

[Dubai_Steve]

http://i30.tinypic.com/1z3m6jd.jpg

[True Blue]

Will the "sticky" 100 N/mm2 concrete be difficult to pump up as the tower gets higher? Is there a risk that this could cause problems ands slow things down? I have no "specialist knowledge" but am just recalling all the trumpeting about this super strong, never-used-before mix and the associated issues with it's "stickiness" - from a while back.

They can reduce the strength of the concrete as they get higher as it will be carrying less weight from above.

[smshah]

can i ask by how much as a figure or a percentage does the floor plate decrease above the first section?

[Dubai_Steve]

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/4051/marinazs8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[PAULDELVES]

Got your own heli now then Steve ! LOL ! Nice Picture -

[Rider]

That photo really brings it home how much of a hotspot upper marina will be.

Years from now when the contstruction has finished, the flipping has cooled and the population has grown this area will be premium.

[scoot68]

http://i28.tinypic.com/33nzqcp.jpg

[scoot68]

http://i29.tinypic.com/2567j9z.jpg

[scoot68]

http://i26.tinypic.com/15durt5.jpg

[mackie1964]

Great shots scoot, many thanks :applause::applause:

[High Times]

Is the reason why the red nets are up to protect workers below ?

Does this mean that they are now doing interior walls and 1st fix on these levels ?

Perhaps the April update due tomorrow from SP will enlighten us.

[scoot68]

http://i26.tinypic.com/v4tcae.jpg

[scoot68]

http://i29.tinypic.com/10dec8h.jpg

[scoot68]

Seaviews for everyone
http://i26.tinypic.com/2qk1gy0.jpg

[scoot68]

http://i27.tinypic.com/11rrsr4.jpg

[Dubai_Steve]

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4961/2450054877e266965e2eots4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Dubai_Steve]

The Torch should push into the lead, taller than 23 Marina in the next few weeks.

[Morrismarina]

Great pics Scoot......many thanks. :banana:

[Dubai_Steve]

New tram route confirmed to pass directly outside the Torch :banana:

http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/3732/tramroutefull5bz4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[scoot68]

Shame it doesn't stop :lol:

[Dubai_Steve]

:lol: Well Morris can jump from his balcony onto the top and ride for free :banana:

Looks like nearest stop is phase 1 towers. 2 min walk.

[High Times]

Do you think this stop will link up to Marina metro stop near Marina Diamonds ?

[bizzybonita]

New tram route confirmed to pass directly outside the Torch :banana:

http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/3732/tramroutefull5bz4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

elso

[bizzybonita]

New tram route confirmed to pass directly outside the Torch :banana:

http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/3732/tramroutefull5bz4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

elso DUBAI PROMOANDE , THE POINT , MARINA WHARF 1 ,2 etc :banana::banana::banana:

[Dubai_Steve]

but not The Jewels, Dorra Bay, Botanica, TGR etc.

[Dubai_Steve]

Do you think this stop will link up to Marina metro stop near Marina Diamonds ?

It connects to both Marina / JLT metro stops.

[High Times]

but not The Jewels, Dorra Bay, Botanica, TGR etc.

I guess residents of this end of the marina will be used to using buses. :)

[yecabel]

great news on the tram route. also, i m happy to see that, afterall, sea-facing units will have some seaviews.

[AITU]

Property worth an extra couple of hundred K if you are located right next to a tram stop?

[Naz UK]

This is brilliant. Lazy bastards can now walk to the Phase 1 Tram station and hitch a ride onto the Marina Diamonds Metro station. :)

[Dubai_Steve]

^^ and I can go to the gourmet tower and watch a movie after.

[Julito-dubai]

New tram route confirmed to pass directly outside the Torch :banana:

http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/3732/tramroutefull5bz4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Also shows Jumeirah Hills for the first time officially!!! :banana:

[Gorilla]

I don't understand where this tram line is going to fit in the Marina, its already very tightly packed. The road behind Torch is not very wide! what about stations?

[thedubailife]

Now the Burj Al Arab is actually within walking distance from The Torch as you walk get a tram and then your there. Who says SP were over marketing they can see the future :lol:

[Dubai_Steve]

Great way to get from the Torch to Atlantis, 10 mins on the tram and jump onto the Palm monorail.

[High Times]

As someone else has already mentioned properties with tram stops just outside will benefit from this greatly and will be reflected in prices.

This can be evidenced in up and coming London areas. If you are 5 mins walk from a tube station you can add 10% to the price of your flat/house on something like for like thats more than 5 mins walk away.

In my opinion transport links in a grid locked city are a major factor in property prices/demand. More so than views in an established market.

Great News for the Tallest Block in general to have this tube station located.

[scoot68]

http://i28.tinypic.com/riw8t3.jpg

[High Times]

No update from Select for April ?

Thanks to Scoot for all the recent photos.

[Dubai_Steve]

They are too busy selling villas on islands.

[mackie1964]

Leave my bestest friends at DS?SG alone, They are the best :):banana:

One of the best developers in Dubai

:kiss::hug:

[charlie big potatoes]

They are too busy selling villas on islands.

Hope your French and Spanish is fluent..........

[Dubai_Steve]

How much discount did you get on your villa then Mackie :lol:

[mackie1964]

Can't a man love a developer without being after something these days? :lol::banana::banana:

I just love all the nice people at Select Group, every one of them..........Except for one, I will never forgive him :cheers:

[Dubai_Steve]

Leave morris alone! he is my friend :D

[mackie1964]

^^No, not that one, you know the other one too :lol:

[jeetha]

That must be the one that didn’t offer you tea and biscuits, when you were in Dubai.

[yecabel]

great shot scoot, thanx.
is TT at the same height as princess' core?

[barry mcbarry]

great shot scoot, thanx.
is TT at the same height as princess' core?


yes and no, if i'm allowed to say that:nono::sleepy:

how tall is the tallest building in this block and is it very tall?

ps chelsea can win the double!!!!!!!!!!!!!:lol::cheers::banana::nuts:

[ZZ-II]

how tall is the tallest building in this block and is it very tall?

the current tallest building is the Emirates Crown with 296m

[AltinD]

^^ I doubt the height is 296, not with the much shorter spire. Comparing it also with the 256 meter Harbour Hotel next door, I would say around 275 - 280 meters, but not more.

[High Times]

http://i28.tinypic.com/2vmdgg3.jpg

On the Marina Sky Towers plot it's interesting to see that the secondary boundry in grey to the left of the bus is in line with the Torch left hand side.

I count 20 floors now ?

[PAULDELVES]

HT You'll be surveying the sea from your balcony before you know it ! - good progress -sept 09 perhaps not -- but mid+ 2010 I think so

[Dubai_Steve]

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2020/torchoo6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2020/torchoo6.ae476b83f4.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=217&i=torchoo6.jpg)

[shaffar]

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2020/torchoo6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2020/torchoo6.ae476b83f4.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=217&i=torchoo6.jpg)

Steve, you look good in green!:lol:

[Beppe786]

ARE TORCH PEOPLE GETTING COMPANSATION FOR DELAYS?? AND HOW MUCH?

[Naz UK]

£3.50 an hour.

[Imre]

5/May/2007

Dubai Marina

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/922/imresolt139rh5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


200 new pics on the flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/imresolt/

True Blue and the Torch

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/2217/imresolt213ws9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/8551/imresolt214gt8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

he is still thinking about buying or not here:)

[Anjam]

Quick car hire question. Sorry for being off topic. Do you guys normally book a car before arriving in Dubai? I have always found this cheaper. Anyone found it cheaper getting one locally from the airport? Who from?

[jetsetter]

Quick car hire question. Sorry for being off topic. Do you guys normally book a car before arriving in Dubai? I have always found this cheaper. Anyone found it cheaper getting one locally from the airport? Who from?

I wouldn't bother unless you're planning to drive very far out of town. Taxis are cheap and normally plentiful

[Anjam]

Tried doing Taxis the firt few times but didn't really work out. I like to get around a lot and go for spontaneous drives especially late night/early morning so I have been hiring cars for the past few years. Last year I got lucky and got a free upgrade to a Hummer from Budget :banana:

[mackie1964]

Which company was that?

I hate Car rental companies with passion and I hate Dubai Taxi drivers even more :bash::bash:

But I love DS/SG

[Anjam]

Which company was that?



^^ Budget Car Hire

[mackie1964]

I hate them :bash::bash:

I hate Argus Car Hire(Agent) :bash:

I hate EuropCar :bash:

I hate Hertz :bash:

And Next week I will get the chance to hate National

And above all, I really, really hate the Taxi drivers in Dubai. :bash::bash:

[Anjam]

Anyone in Dubai between 25th May and 2nd June care to meet up for a drink?

[mackie1964]

Who is buying:lol::banana:

I have to save up for my new Marina View :lol:

HT & I are going to meet up for a drink, I will be meeting up with Imre and a few others also. The more the merrier :banana:

[jetsetter]

Anyone in Dubai between 25th May and 2nd June care to meet up for a drink?

You do realise that there are other websites which specifically deal in car hire and online dating? :banana:

[Anjam]

You do realise that there are other websites which specifically deal in car hire and online dating? :banana:

^^ You Jealous? :banana:

[Anjam]

Who is buying:lol::banana:

I have to save up for my new Marina View :lol:

HT & I are going to meet up for a drink, I will be meeting up with Imre and a few others also. The more the merrier :banana:

I'll buy a round :cheers: I'll pm you my email and mobile number. What dates are you there?

[mackie1964]

Just to make it easy for you to recognise me

http://i31.tinypic.com/t679fl.jpg

I am there from the 12th until the 31st, The family will join me on the 20th I think.

[Anjam]

Sorry all the pigeons look the same to me, which one are you? J/K :lol:

[AltinD]

^^ True Blue would really love you

[Anjam]

^^ Not sure if that's a good thing :dunno:

[mackie1964]

I think Altin meant my Signature :lol:

[mackie1964]

On a different serious matter and for those of you who thought that views don’t matter, you know who you are…..:banana:
There is currently a difference in price of between AED 300K and 400K for the same units in Time place based on views :baeh3:

And its real money not just asking prices. :cheers:

[charlie big potatoes]

Which company was that?

I hate Car rental companies with passion and I hate Dubai Taxi drivers even more :bash::bash:

But I love DS/SG

Yes and they all drive R8 bought with our money...........

[Naz UK]

Taxi drivers driving R8s. There's a sight to see.

[charlie big potatoes]

Taxi drivers driving R8s. There's a sight to see.

No Stott and co

[mackie1964]

And long may they continue to prosper and buy more Porches and R8s, they deserve it.:)

They always had good cars, they started as a company selling sports cars :cheers:

[pinnacle1]

me and the mrs will be there between 6th and 14th, we usually get the hotel to transport us about or even the taxis are good. apart from the guy last year who obviously had a nasal problem and had his own unique way of decorating the pavements.

[Dubai_Steve]

Part of Select Property April 2008 Update. Views :)

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1848/view1mn6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1848/view1mn6.6fa667419d.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=99&i=view1mn6.jpg)

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/8932/view2ja7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/8932/view2ja7.97242fadcf.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=227&i=view2ja7.jpg)

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4871/view3nk6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4871/view3nk6.f55d846791.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=227&i=view3nk6.jpg)

[Sheltie]

Was the last picture taken from an 06 apartment?

[Sheltie]

At last are we going to hear about the towers in front next week at Cityscape?

[Tractor]

Yes, looks even more certain there are going to be 3 very tall towers on that plot now ... unless a photo of 3 mountains in the latest marketing material is a deliberate misdirection!

[Dubai_Steve]

Just what I always wanted a marina front apartment with a view of mount everest

http://i25.tinypic.com/35kkf3s.jpg

[mackie1964]

I hate them :bash::bash:

I hate Argus Car Hire(Agent) :bash:

I hate EuropCar :bash:

I hate Hertz :bash:

And Next week I will get the chance to hate National

And above all, I really, really hate the Taxi drivers in Dubai. :bash::bash:

Is it too late to add a few estate agents to my hate list?

W****rs :bash:

[Dubai_Steve]

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8829/ttem3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8829/ttem3.81a4403328.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=139&i=ttem3.jpg)

[jeetha]

:lol:I admire your energy Mr Torch.

[mackie1964]

Thanks Mr Moderator for removing the advertisements, All re-sales have to go through the official channels, I need a big bonus this year. :banana:

[mackie1964]

:lol:I admire your energy Mr Torch.

Thanks dear :kiss: :hug:

[High Times]

There is currently a difference in price of between AED 300K and 400K for the same units in Time place based on views :baeh3:

And its real money not just asking prices. :cheers:

Can i ask how much these example units are priced ?

And how the views are different?

[Naz UK]

Mackie forgot to mention that any increase in yield due to good views is offset by owning in a building called Time Place, that doesn't actually have a "Time-device" er, placed on it. :)

[mackie1964]

The Clock tower is on its way and you will see The Ramadan, Xmas and Eid greetings soon on top of the Tower.................Snazzy or what, We are competing here with Las Vegas or may be Blackpool :banana::banana:

The views, over a nice drink soon, I will tell you. You will not like what you will hear. I bought in here same day I bought in the Torch. :lol:

[Dubai_Steve]

I see smshah negotiated his balcony extension. :banana:

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7488/balconyiu8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7488/balconyiu8.08e033721a.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=384&i=balconyiu8.jpg)

[Anjam]

BTW Did we get a new floor monday/tuesday?

[Ben40]

Hi Mackie,

Fancy meeting you here (have PM you). This seems to be progressing better that TP did so lets hope for the best. I can see it from my window in TP so may get a telescope and load hailer to boast moral. I started with 1 bed, up graded a couple of times and now have 3 bed towards the 70th floor facing the Palm via three super tall's??

The first internal pictures look great and start to give an idea of the size - more please

[Ben40]

The Clock tower is on its way and you will see The Ramadan, Xmas and Eid greetings soon on top of the Tower.................Snazzy or what, We are competing here with Las Vegas or may be Blackpool :banana::banana:

The views, over a nice drink soon, I will tell you. You will not like what you will hear. I bought in here same day I bought in the Torch. :lol:

Part of Select Property April 2008 Update. Views :)

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1848/view1mn6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1848/view1mn6.6fa667419d.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=99&i=view1mn6.jpg)

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/8932/view2ja7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
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http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4871/view3nk6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4871/view3nk6.f55d846791.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=227&i=view3nk6.jpg)

Great pictures on the internals, thanks, any more please? what type is it??

[mackie1964]

Made the deal with Ben, Nice guy and off to France tonight and then to Dubai on the 10th. As usual any body needs any thing, now is the time to shout. First 10 requests on first come basis. I have three requests already so the next 7 requests within the Marina will be accommodated. I will be in Dubai until the end of the Month.

Cheers

Mackie

[RO 702]

If you can do this, how about a photo update of the 'Royal Oceanic' on the marina please ?

[DubaiLife]

Photos of Princess Tower would be appreciated. Especially one from the Marina which shows how much of the back of Priness Tower can be seen.

Many thanks.

[AltinD]

Hm, how about a picture of Mackie, Morris and True Blue having some cold ones together at Barasti with the towers in the background?

[mackie1964]

It will happen, just waiting until Morris leaving do and True Blue initiating ceremony into the DS Sales team. :cheers::banana:

[cugeneva]

^^ A pic of the Boys Group :banana:..... maybe you will get famous at the end :lol::lol::lol:

[Ben40]

Quick car hire question. Sorry for being off topic. Do you guys normally book a car before arriving in Dubai? I have always found this cheaper. Anyone found it cheaper getting one locally from the airport? Who from?

Have used ''Thrifty'' for the last two trips, booked on line a couple of days before - have been OK

[Ben40]

Hi Mackie,

Hope all goes Ok with the use of my 1 bed ''Time Place'' apartment until the end of the month, (I know every one, you don't need tell me, yes its a sales pitch) please spread the word to any one needs a cheep short term rental in the marina, when going to count their floors in the Torch and like me trying to work out how big my balcony is in real life?? i'm sure it looked bigger in the adverts..

Really interested in seeing the inside of a 01 apartment pls

[jetsetter]

Taken on 6th May - on mobile phone camera so quality not fantastic

http://i29.tinypic.com/1h5vvd.jpg


http://i26.tinypic.com/2s622v5.jpg


http://i30.tinypic.com/9utfl3.jpg


http://i30.tinypic.com/2ziyaub.jpg


http://i29.tinypic.com/tarpdj.jpg

[The-King]

great pics! 19 floors ready and the core about 3 ones ahead!

[Sheltie]

So much for our marina views!!! Not only will we not see the marina when Marina Sky Towers are built, we'll never see daylight.
What a disaster!!!!!!!

[Sheltie]

Have a look at Marina Sky Towers thread, picture on 141. Alongside the picture of the empty plot there is an image of what it will look like.

[arfie]

The development in front could make it a nightmare to sell Torch units on the resale market. So those people with marina facing units could be stuck now with their investments.

[ferrari430]

No wonder there were 14 torch units for sale on the better homes website in the last couple of weeks and some deals have been done recently.

I think the way the marina sky towers will be blocking TT and MH not only there will be no views but no daylight too and the rest of the 'marina facing' units can not be sold unless discounted

[Naz UK]

Suddenly, the Princess Tower looks all the more stunning to me.

[Anjam]

The rooftop gardens on the Mall across the road are growing on me too !

[thetorch]

No comment

[Naz UK]

Why do you feel you've been let down by Dubai Select? Did they (or you) know what was going to be built there when you bought? If you should be disappointed at anyone, erm, it should be yourself. You bought off-plan in a tower in the "tallest block" and took a chance with an apartment over-looking a huge chunk of land knowing full well the Emaar sales centre was temporary...erm... basically you screwed up. That's not the developer's fault and strictly speakiing, its not Emaar's fault. They're just taking the money and running..pretty much what you would be doing when you take the guy's 140,000 Dhs per year rent and run with it.

It's amazing how ppl always blame the "others" when things like this happen..everyone but themselves.

You are right though. You've learnt the hard way. Yes, don't buy off-plan ever again, UK or outside, if you're not sure what you're letting yourself in for, if you're only buying for views from your balcony.

So all is well that ends well. :)

[arfie]

Im not sure we can blame Dubai Select/SP because when they bought the plot Im sure they were told nothing big will be built in front. Had they known they may not have bought the Torch plot and infact tried to buy the big plot in front.

Lets see what SP stance now will be to those customers who were guaranteed uninterupted MARINA VIEWS!

In the long run it may not effect the prices of the Torch as the big commercial property in front will mean the Torch is a good rental property.

[Tractor]

The miss-selling starts at the top and continues all the way to the bottom ... to the people that really pay for everything.

Most normal people who haven't lived in Dubai actually take things at face value, so if the developer says 'don't worry it will be less than 20 floors' or whatever, they believe them. Having lived in Dubai I soon realised that no-one believed a word I said... because everyone lies habitually (at least the people involved in property!). Literally every agent that took people around one of my apartments lied to potential buyers regarding the surrounding towers.

So while you can be heartless and attack the investors for being naive, I believe the blame rests with Emaar ... and later DS for perpetuating that misinformation. Either they are completely incompetent and didn't know (or ensure it was in their purchase agreement for the land) ... or they simply didn't want to know ... or they knew and didn't tell anyone.

Whatever the reality, I think it is extremely harsh to have a go at disappointed people who have invested both their money and dreams into Dubai only to be very let down & disappointed.

[arfie]

Tractor - is the Marina Sky Tower development going to take up the whole plot in front of Torch and Marina Heights ? This development will take 5 yrs minimum to build in my view. I guess there still could be a chance that the design maybe changed. I dont think there will be any marina view in between the 3 towers either.

[Tractor]

I can't say as I have no more information than you ...except they were soil testing right to the edge of the boundary both in front of TT and MH. The design may well have to be significantly modified depending on those results ... someone like True Blue would know better than I.

The problem I foresee is that now the building is launched, if it is indeed the son of an Abu Dhabi sheikh who owns the project, then he won't want to lose face and be seen to back track! Regardless of the soil test results / other problems.

[jetsetter]

I can't say as I have no more information than you ...except they were soil testing right to the edge of the boundary both in front of TT and MH. The design may well have to be significantly modified depending on those results ... someone like True Blue would know better than I.
.

True Blue might be too busy getting stuck into the deep fried vodka after tonight's result

[thetorch]

Why do you feel you've been let down by Dubai Select? Did they (or you) know what was going to be built there when you bought? If you should be disappointed at anyone, erm, it should be yourself. You bought off-plan in a tower in the "tallest block" and took a chance with an apartment over-looking a huge chunk of land knowing full well the Emaar sales centre was temporary...erm... basically you screwed up. That's not the developer's fault and strictly speakiing, its not Emaar's fault. They're just taking the money and running..pretty much what you would be doing when you take the guy's 140,000 Dhs per year rent and run with it.

It's amazing how ppl always blame the "others" when things like this happen..everyone but themselves.

You are right though. You've learnt the hard way. Yes, don't buy off-plan ever again, UK or outside, if you're not sure what you're letting yourself in for, if you're only buying for views from your balcony.

So all is well that ends well. :)

No comment

[Dubai_Steve]

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3032/imresolt153mq7.jpg

Good luck trying to cross the motorway to get to the tram station!

Confirmed, no marina views for anyone in the Torch. No gaps between towers.

Someone needs to inform Select to update their website which now has false information. "the tower boasts stunning views of the Marina itself"

[dirtyharry1]

Have the Sky Towers really been given green light? It was clear that these idiots will do another development in front of Marina Heights and the Torch since they do not want to have one square meter of grass or simply nothing - the density within the Marina will be the biggest problem since many towers will be without daylight, not to talk about the views. If that project will really start I feel sorry for all related investors and tenants, but this shows one thing: Buying off-plan may result in a good profit but in this lousy city it easily can become a nightmare.

[Mistermark]

I sympathise with 'thetorch'. OK, he's annoyed at himself, but what has he done wrong? Believed what he was told, that's all. There are many of us here, myself included, who relied on representations made by DS to the effect that the building would have marina views, anything built on the Emaar sales office plot would not be more than 18/19/23 storeys etc.

Frankly the onus was on DS not to make such claims unless they could be sure they were true. If they did this, presumably by checking with Emaar as the master developer, now this turns out to be untrue, they would be well advised to take it up with Emaar and seek compensation which they can pass on to us.

In any event, those of us who bought 'marina view' apartments on the basis of representations made by DS now have potentially actionable claims against them, meaning the UK sales agency as opposed to Torch Select, the Dubai developer.

[cugeneva]

^^ The point when buying off plan is making the right assessment in the first place. People who trust real estate agents...... well IMO there are only a few trustworthy people around in Dubai and luckily I got one.
She did not recommend to buy in the tallest block due to the uncertainty of views (which is important to me) but recommended TP. I bought a 2B apartment with full marina view towards Bayside Residence knowing that it would be very unlikely that they fill up the marina to build something in front.

So I am very happy with the advice I got and will soon enjoy my nice holiday home :banana: and feel very very sorry for the Torch or MH investors :ohno:
Well, as they have not started constructions yet, I cross fingers that they still will change design of this ugly podium......

[Naz UK]

TheTorch, with the greatest respect - no "facts" were given to you, as no one knew back in 2005/6 what was "actually" going to be built on the plots even though there were "suggestions" from Emaar of much smaller towers - and thats all DS conveyed to investors. Any suggestions that they knew there would be something bigger but withheld information is simply ludicrous, as Dubai Steve said, Emaar did indeed have their own plans, which were taken away from them from someone higher up.

But besides that, my point is that by nature, buying "off-plan" (and there's a clue in the words off-plan) means that you are buying into a project not yet built. Therefore you will never know what the final outcome will be exactly in terms of surroundings, etc. It's an intrinsic part of the risk. That's partly the reason why its cheaper than to buy in built projects.

I too was faced with the very same dilemna, and was very tempted to go for the lovely "Marina views" for a little bit extra..but in the end decided for a Princess Tower view, since I knew exactly what I was going to get from that side of the tower. It seemed less risky to me.

Investment is a risky business. You stand to make a lot more money with off-plan, but like the stockmarket, you also stand to lose if it all goes pear shaped. Or in this case "hideously-ugly-donner-kebab" shaped.

[pinnacle1]

When we purchased in Marina Pinnacle, we were told that we would have uninterupted views of the marina. When they first started soil testing for the Torch we were told by Tiger it was going to be a low rise shopping mall. So all contractors lie through their back teeth to get a sale. But for what we paid for the apartments and if they ever get finished, I am still quite pleased with what I got. It is a shame though that developers cannot be a bit more honest with it's clients, but I suppose they would never get a sale.

[ferrari430]

Compared to these expectations of views and aspect in the marina, the JLT investors are much better off as they know exactly what views they are going to get right from start and they will be mostly accurate (except for views towards jumeirah islands blcoked by new towers)

[jeffers]

Shame Shame Shame Shame Shame Shame !!!!!!!!!!!!!!... Message sent to

http://www.sheikhmohammed.ae/vgn-ext...007064a8c0RCRD

[Yousuf27]

I just dashed off an e-mail to Sheikh Moh'd myself and would urge everyone else who cares to do the same. I don't have a Marina Facing - I have an 03 apt - so I'm less affected than many, but I do care about this monstrosity being built on the next door plot. I'm not even that concerned about what it looks - I'm much more worried about the traffic nightmare which will come with it and the lack of anything at the waters edge except that massive podium. No consideration has been given to amenity or the beautification or benefit to the marina community. This is just about pure greed and nothing else. If you care about those aspects of the marina then please go to Sheikh Moh'd's website and e-mail him. If enough mails arrive then just maybe someone will bring the matter to his attention. It's worth a try!

[Sheltie]

Just e mailed Sheikh Mo, please everyone do the same

[jetsetter]

Just e mailed Sheikh Mo, please everyone do the same

Have also emailed him telling that my dream of living at the marina has all but disappeared and that the marina in general will suffer dramatically as a result of the Doner Sky Towers.

Might we worthwhile if we use the same/similar subject header in the email to increase emphasis.

I simply used "Marina Sky Towers" but perhaps we can use something more powerful or hard-hitting?...

[agod]

Do you really think that DS wants this as well, I expect they are totally pissed of as much as we are, as it also de-values there intersets in the Building.

I hear a lot of hollering about getting this thing sorted out, remember this is not England, where we have Planners and Planning permissions to get, before you can proceed, and can take anything up to 10 years plus just to get a simple plan passed, or the States where a change of colour to my front door needed HOA board permission.

You reap the rewards Big Time by buying off plan, and high risk is always high reward.

This is Dubai, and if this is a gift between Friends, there is no reason in the world they are going to change it,...... so put up or shut up.

ALan

[jeffers]

Totally disagree Agod, for those that this does actually affect, i.e. marina facing apartments you need to do anything you can, if only to save your own sanity (please remember we did pay a premium)... its easy to say put up or shut up if you are not directly affected !!! For those that bought into something that is not delivered, why just sit an do nothing... that simply makes no sense !!! Well done to those who have made the effort to send an email !!! if this thing does get a redesign it could be down to you..... well I live in hope.

[shaffar]

Would positioning the pool roadside rather than the better option marina be the knowing of the monster to came in front?

pleading ignorance if far too easy.

[Naz UK]

Probably not knowing about the monster, but the rather simple common-sense of knowing "something" will enevitably be built on a piece of land where they seem to be knocking down a temporary sales centre and boarding it up. I think. The logic being to allow more sunlight/space etc, between the pool and other buildings it's always better to face a road than another tower.

[arfie]

I spoke to DS about this yesterday and got a call in return today. Basically they said to the best of their knowledge they were told a small tower will be built in front. I did ask if my unit could be transferred into another tower they said thats not possible.

Basically left with one option and that is to resell my marina facing apt and they claim that 5 Torch units have been sold on the resale market recently at high premiums.

[Mistermark]

TheTorch, with the greatest respect - no "facts" were given to you, as no one knew back in 2005/6 what was "actually" going to be built on the plots even though there were "suggestions" from Emaar of much smaller towers - and thats all DS conveyed to investors. Any suggestions that they knew there would be something bigger but withheld information is simply ludicrous, as Dubai Steve said, Emaar did indeed have their own plans, which were taken away from them from someone higher up.

But besides that, my point is that by nature, buying "off-plan" (and there's a clue in the words off-plan) means that you are buying into a project not yet built. Therefore you will never know what the final outcome will be exactly in terms of surroundings, etc. It's an intrinsic part of the risk. That's partly the reason why its cheaper than to buy in built projects.

I too was faced with the very same dilemna, and was very tempted to go for the lovely "Marina views" for a little bit extra..but in the end decided for a Princess Tower view, since I knew exactly what I was going to get from that side of the tower. It seemed less risky to me.

Investment is a risky business. You stand to make a lot more money with off-plan, but like the stockmarket, you also stand to lose if it all goes pear shaped. Or in this case "hideously-ugly-donner-kebab" shaped.

I can't speak for 'thetorch', but I can say for certain that DS represented to me as solid fact that apartments at the front of The Torch above floor 19 would have direct and uninterrupted marina views. I even have it in writing.

I understand that there's a higher degree of risk involved in off-plan property than completed projects. However, I don't believe the level of risk should extend to being unable to believe claims made in writing by the developer.

It's my view that if someone buys a product on the basis of assertions made about it by the seller, if those assertions subsequently turn out to be untrue, they should have the right to redress. In the case of misdescribed real estate, that should be the difference in value between the unit/s as promised and as delivered.

[agod]

Totally disagree Agod, for those that this does actually affect, i.e. marina facing apartments you need to do anything you can, if only to save your own sanity (please remember we did pay a premium)... its easy to say put up or shut up if you are not directly affected !!! For those that bought into something that is not delivered, why just sit an do nothing... that simply makes no sense !!! Well done to those who have made the effort to send an email !!! if this thing does get a redesign it could be down to you..... well I live in hope.


Sorry Jeffer's but I own two apartments in the Torch, (Just about to make the next payment as well) one of which is on the corner facing the marina, so I am directly affected.

My point was, having had enough fights with planners in my time, in different countries and being told "no" continually by bloody jobsworths from the council planning office, and having to fight fo everything, that I have ever tried to get through planning, it is nice to see a city like Dubai that has the "Wild West" about it, because of these, sometimes hit you in the eye schemes, but half the buildings in Dubai certainly push the boat out on the crazy Architecture theme.

Dont get me wrong, the thing is a monstrosity, and as everyone is saying, just doesn't work, but it will grow on you, and I will have to look at it from my terrace on Oceanic. :-)

Alan

[Ben40]

My ''down grade'' from a 1 bed facing the Marina to a 3 bed at the back of the building (towards the palm) is not looking so bad now?? so always a flip side !!! risky business

[jeffers]

Evening Alan, I seem to be in the same position as you, payment reminder droped on the doorstep today for my 2 bed.... my concerns here are that this unit facing the marina was bought in 2005 purely as a holiday home in full knowledge of the plots in front, but with the reasssurance of the height restrictions, but after falling in love with Dubai we then bought a 3 bed on the higher floors once again facing the Marina but to use more as a home... its for this reason I fell so strongly on the loss of views... and have tried to do my small part this far... regards