Views from the corner balcony of the torch (facing infinity tower) on the 41st floor (Dubai Steve's apartment :))

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/580/65201618nf8.jpg

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/9503/30812914vf3.jpg

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/9356/11095318oi4.jpg

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/749/66348052ir9.jpg

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4226/64535852hc1.jpg

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/2655/31121437lc5.jpg

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4066/75850361fl8.jpg

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/8971/51994829dg3.jpg

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/17/78362179kv7.jpg

Thank you malec for your skillfull renders! Unfortunately I will not get the view towards the sea/palm. The marina facing units windows are only facing the sky towers and to the left towards phase 1.

15/May/2008

The Torch

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6320/imresolt107os9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/4127/imresolt108hr1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Malec
can you please render me the view from the 64 floor so called marina facing from the 06 units (MH side), on other issue do you guys beleive we should sue DS for loss of view jointly, as i beleive that DS should sue emaar for changing the master plan, i am currently thinking that when DS purchased the plot the plot in the front had 45ish floor height restriction, therfore we will have a case if we go after DS that will go after emaar which will is listed in the stock market and should try to keep the record clean from customer service prospective, what do you guys think

Hi Malec,

Would be great if you could do from apt 4805 (54th floor Marina Facing - balcony on the corner nearest to Marina Heights)

Thanks so much!

People;

It does not matter which floor on which corner, there is no f****g views from any where. :bash::bash::bash:

@ Naz;

I know you are friends with some of these wankers and you are a funny guy but you are always the first to dish it out to other developers, very disappointed in what I read here. These friends of yours and mine lied to us as recent as 3 weeks ago, I will post the email here when I get back to the UK or may be Steve can post it.

Lying, Cheats Scumbags and this has nothing to do with knowing about the plot in front, they lied about it end off. I still Love them though :banana::banana:

Got a lot of Photos and Videos but I see no point in posting them at present :ohno:

Got a letter from Dubai Select in March 2006 which says:

We are keen to emphasize that the Torch is part of Emaar's master planned development of Dubai Marina which means that the location and positioning of all towers and development projects in each of its individual districts have been carefully considered to maximise the views of all home owners.
Regardless of any individual scheme still to be announced as part of this spectacular part of Dubai's overall transformation, we are totally confident that any apartment we have sold with a 'marina view' will have exactly that.

Take note of the last sentence!!!!

I spoke to Dubai Select yesterday and they still insisted we would have a Marina View :) Basically the option available was to try to resell the apartment as they are not able to transfer the property onto any other of their developments as they have been sold out.

These are the views from my 1 bedded apartment in Timeplace (sorry in bed), bought the same day as I bought the Torch for 80% of the Torch value, rented it out yesterday for AED15 to 20K more the same ones without a view. Who said views don't matter? :bash:


http://i31.tinypic.com/2hs993a.jpg

I spoke to Dubai Select yesterday and they still insisted we would have a Marina View :) Basically the option available was to try to resell the apartment as they are not able to transfer the property onto any other of their developments as they have been sold out.

Ask about France or Spain see what reaction you get.

Malec
can you please render me the view from the 64 floor so called marina facing from the 06 units (MH side), on other issue do you guys beleive we should sue DS for loss of view jointly, as i beleive that DS should sue emaar for changing the master plan, i am currently thinking that when DS purchased the plot the plot in the front had 45ish floor height restriction, therfore we will have a case if we go after DS that will go after emaar which will is listed in the stock market and should try to keep the record clean from customer service prospective, what do you guys think

Yes, I think we should present a claim to them and if they don't settle, go after them jointly. I think that, technically, it's Select Property, the UK sales agency, we should pursue, as it's on the basis of their representations about views that we purchased.

For the present I've written to DS about my two 'marina view' type 06 apartments (5206/5306), offering them some alternative solutions. Once I've had their response I'll know better how to play things.

Yes a joint claim is the way to go. DS can then sue Emaar. Emaar can then sue Sheik Mohammed for giving the plot to the scumbags at DAS Holding.

Ask about France or Spain see what reaction you get.

:lol: Yes they have plenty of units still available to transfer you to in Aquitania (France and Spain world islands villas project).

These are the views from my 1 bedded apartment in Timeplace (sorry in bed), bought the same day as I bought the Torch for 80% of the Torch value, rented it out yesterday for AED15 to 20K more the same ones without a view. Who said views don't matter? :bash:


Mackie, did you take the pic early morning????

Pitfalls of offplan

How can we sue DS 1.without legal title and 2.unable to assess the
market value of our apartments?

1.From my understanding, SP/DS or any other developer hold legal title to
all apartments until such time as the project is completed and title deeds are issued by the Land Department.
2.The value of an apartment under construction = purchase price.
IMO,Any capital appreciation can only be measured on or after handover.

This is only my unqualified opinion.
Can anyone with a legal background please assist?

Why does every one think that the big wigs in Dubai will not feel our pain?

They will no doubt offer a FULL refund to all unhappy customers, just as they recently did with a friend in the Alarifi Tower.... FULL refund :)

Pitfalls of offplan

How can we sue DS 1.without legal title and 2.unable to assess the
market value of our apartments?

1.From my understanding, SP/DS or any other developer hold legal title to
all apartments until such time as the project is completed and title deeds are issued by the Land Department.
2.The value of an apartment under construction = purchase price.
IMO,Any capital appreciation can only be measured on or after handover.

This is only my unqualified opinion.
Can anyone with a legal background please assist?

I don't think we need legal title to sue - just proof of our losses and that they were to blame.

As for assessing market value, DS's own recent release of Botanica Tower provides a benchmark for apartment pricing per square foot they can't argue with, as do resales of their own and other apartments in the Marina via Better Homes, Gowealthy and others. So I disagree that the only value of an apartment under construction is the purchase price.

However, I understand where you're coming from that the best way to establish our losses might be to wait until completion - of both The Torch and Marina Sky Towers. Once that has taken place, it'll be possible to get a surveyor or estate agent in to value a 'marina view' apartment and compare it with a comparable one that isn't in the shadow of three supertalls...

It may be that if DS believe that there's scope for further growth in real estate values in Dubai they would prefer to settle with us now rather than when both projects are complete. Likewise, we may prefer to resolve this matter now, rather than hope that DS will still be existent and traceable when not only The Torch but also Marina Sky Towers will be completed - and I'm guessing the latter could be five years away, based on the scale of the project...

Dream on..............do you honestly think SP are so stupid as to allow themselves to be put in a position whereby they can sued ?? They were told low rise in front of TT and genuinely passed this info to purchasers. They've no doubt got evidence to back this up.

Assuming the rumours are true........... since then Sheikh Mo got hold of the plot (apparantly) gave it to his mate who's decided to build this monstrosity on it. Hardly the fault of SP is it ?? Blame the right person - Sheikh Mo he's the cause of all this fiasco. You can try suing SP if you like but you're completely wasting your time.

Interestingly........the Sky Towers development hasn't actually been confirmed yet.

my manhattan apartment doesn't have central park, hudson river, east river or empire state building views, and it's therefore worth less than apartments that do.

but its still worth a shit load. if the upper marina does become the tallest residential precinct in the world, and dubai doesn't disappear into the sea because of climate change, any apartment there is going to be valuable. and appreciate in value.

if unobstructed marina view apartments in this kebab threesome thing are worth x, then considerably obstructed marina view apartments in the torch will probably be worth 1/2 x. but half of loadsamoney is lots more than fuckall money, which is what we paid off plan.

so relax.....................:lol::banana::cheers::)

and grosvenor house will still be a short stagger away:cheer:

just hope the marina doesn't become the new manchester e.g. massive over supply of trashy flats:ohno: thats the more important issue:bash:

oh and lets all hope the class of the mighty blues buries skankchester united on wednesday night in moscow!:banana::master::wave::yes:

Hi Guys, I have read a number of you are considering your options, so is any one interested in a possible part exchange deal for my finished 1 bed (2b) in Time Place, with a great view (25th floor) valued between AED 1.5 - 1.7 for your 1, 2 or 3 bed Marina, (now with probably no) view apartment (cash balance either way). I will be interested how much interest I get to gauge between the writing and the doing??

Yeah, I'll do a straight swap for my 3-bed Marina view on the 65th floor. As you can see, I'm that upset that they're gona build a project to block my views, that i'll part exchange it for a brand new set of HB pencils (box not included).

Dream on..............do you honestly think SP are so stupid as to allow themselves to be put in a position whereby they can sued ?? They were told low rise in front of TT and genuinely passed this info to purchasers. They've no doubt got evidence to back this up.

Assuming the rumours are true........... since then Sheikh Mo got hold of the plot (apparantly) gave it to his mate who's decided to build this monstrosity on it. Hardly the fault of SP is it ?? Blame the right person - Sheikh Mo he's the cause of all this fiasco. You can try suing SP if you like but you're completely wasting your time.

Interestingly........the Sky Towers development hasn't actually been confirmed yet.

It may well be the case that Emaar told DS that there wouldn't be planning permission for a tall building on the old sales plot and they repeated this to us in good faith.

However, this in no way diminishes our entitlement to redress. It merely provides a potential route for DS to pass that cost back up the line to the company that (if this scenario is true) started the problem in the first place.

BTW, Marina Sky Towers HAS been confirmed. It was launched at Cityscape Abu Dhabi last week.

my manhattan apartment doesn't have central park, hudson river, east river or empire state building views, and it's therefore worth less than apartments that do.

but its still worth a shit load. if the upper marina does become the tallest residential precinct in the world, and dubai doesn't disappear into the sea because of climate change, any apartment there is going to be valuable. and appreciate in value.

if unobstructed marina view apartments in this kebab threesome thing are worth x, then considerably obstructed marina view apartments in the torch will probably be worth 1/2 x. but half of loadsamoney is lots more than fuckall money, which is what we paid off plan.

so relax.....................:lol::banana::cheers::)

You may be right that our apartments will have appreciated considerably by the time we take delivery - assuming DS does deliver, and the Dubai market doesn't crash before then. That's the return we hope to get for taking the risk of buying off-plan and being prepared to tie up cash for years with no return.

However, this doesn't alter the fact that our capital appreciation will be less than it should have been had the representations made to those of us who have 'marina-facing' apartments higher than the 19th floor been true.

To take your Manhattan analogy, yes, your apartment is worth a lot of money, even without views. You accept it would have been worth more with views. Now imagine you bought it, unseen, on the basis of a sales prospectus and emails from the realtor and a surveyor telling you it did have those views. You might be just a little bit angry...

When you purchase something, and you are not happy with your purchase, you can if you like, ask for a full refund, which I am sure they will gladly give you, to concoct some high filluting way of getting compo, from some far off figure is pie in the sky, it could be all of ten years before it is all finished, in fact, as this is a Skyscraper Forum, we should be talking about its merits or not as a building.

If you have a few hundred grand to throw at a lawsuit, that involves DS, Emaar, and his Royal Highness, good luck my friend,and when it comes to getting your Residence visa, or any other kind of involvement with Dubai, you might find all sorts of problems put in your way.

Alan

p.s. IMO we should all sell our Torch apartments and buy in the MST, what do you think?

BTW, Marina Sky Towers HAS been confirmed. It was launched at Cityscape Abu Dhabi last week.

No it hasn't been confirmed yet as per these posts on the MST thread:

The soft launch of this project, btw, has been delayed. Developer is hoping for June, but admits it may be delayed till after summer. Apparently they are still awaiting approvals of some kind or other. An agent at Cityscape said she expects the tower to sell out quickly upon soft launch negating need for any hard launch later. HA! Keep dreaming, I thought. What are they going to be asking for? Probably 8000 psf.

I just asked the people at the stand today for information, they said they are just showing a concept and this is not final?
Then why are you going so aggressive and put yourselves in situations that might backfire on you guys!! I say better wait for the project to be final and launched...

I checked the website you just mentioned the project seems amazing!!

Although I must admit I think it is very likely to proceed.

I suppose I'm clutching at anything to hope it is cancelled or amended to an acceptable design. Good luck with the lawsuit then.........it might be an idea to have a chat with a lawyer a.s.a.p. to see what chance there is of winning the case and whether it's worth moving ahead now (unlikely) or at what point in the future to start action. A lawyer may say the towers actually have to be built first in which case you're years from even starting a case. Perhaps not though, but it's worth checking at what stage you can instigate a claim. I really don't think you're going to get very far but I honestly wish you all the best of luck.

I've always said that it's at your own risk buying a plot 100m from the waters edge and expecting a Marina view, regardless of what the developer is telling you. But, to be honest, I was indeed looking at a Marina facing one bed when I bought. Luckily for me, DS lied through their back teeth and told me only Media City view was available. I found out a few weeks later that there were plenty of Marina Views still for sale. (They said all the Sea Views were gone as well and then Naz bought one three months later !! ) They were obviously trying to make sure they were not just left with the poorer quality stock. They saved me £10k though. Would I have been sucked in my by their sales patter and bought at the front ?? Very likely....... but DS did me a big favour by being so dishonest. So I could well have been in the same position as you Marina facing folks. SP and their lies.......sometimes it really is for the best. :nuts:

. Luckily for me, DS lied through their back teeth and told me only Media City view was available. I found out a few weeks later that there were plenty of Marina Views still for sale. (They said all the Sea Views were gone as well and then Naz bought one three months later !! ) They were obviously trying to make sure they were not just left with the poorer quality stock.

I can confirm this is correct. The UK Sales Reps told me all marina view apartments had been sold and when I called up the Dubai office a few minutes later, some had magically appeared onto their system as being available. :bash:

The only saving grace was that the lying twat up north lost out on his commission :banana:

Yeah, I'll do a straight swap for my 3-bed Marina view on the 65th floor. As you can see, I'm that upset that they're gona build a project to block my views, that i'll part exchange it for a brand new set of HB pencils (box not included).


OK, PM me the details and i'll throw in the pencils for free. I thought 3 beds don't start until floor 66, (68 units)?? when did that change??

To be fair to investors here, DS should re-value every apartment that was priced higher, now to the identical - as no views.

When you purchase something, and you are not happy with your purchase, you can if you like, ask for a full refund, which I am sure they will gladly give you, to concoct some high filluting way of getting compo, from some far off figure is pie in the sky, it could be all of ten years before it is all finished, in fact, as this is a Skyscraper Forum, we should be talking about its merits or not as a building.

If you have a few hundred grand to throw at a lawsuit, that involves DS, Emaar, and his Royal Highness, good luck my friend,and when it comes to getting your Residence visa, or any other kind of involvement with Dubai, you might find all sorts of problems put in your way.

You appear not to understand the concept of opportunity cost. Getting back our original cash investment is not a result. The same cash invested at random in real estate almost anywhere in the world during the past few years would have earned us a return, but especially in Dubai. So getting back our cash and no return on it means losing out in real terms.

You're also overestimating the cost and complexity of litigation. Our claim is against DS, the UK selling agent. A simple route might be to pursue a claim with Trading Standards up in Cheshire; a successful prosecution by them would make a subsequent claim online via www.moneyclaim.gov.uk.

But you have got capital appreciation on your property right now, if you were to sell it.

But you have got capital appreciation on your property right now, if you were to sell it.


Unless people joined the party late, those who have bought into TT or elsewhere for that matter are indeed sitting on handsome capital appreciation. It would be interesting to see what people's expectations are from having invested in TT. :cheers:

Yes I feel for the investors as well but whats all the talk about suing here and there when at the end of the day there will be good return on investment outlayed, losing a view? Welcome to Dubai this happens everytime a tower goes up someone loses a great view. If DS only relayed what they knew to investors then there is nobody to blame except investors believing there would be nothing high built on the plot 100 metres in front of them at the forefront of the marina´s edge. All investments are risk, you win some .........

I think people are getting confused here.

There is a world of difference between sueing someone for a loss of a view because a 3rd party has decided to change it's plans and build a 120 floor wall in front of your apartment, and sueing a marketing company for providing inaccurate and missleading information, be it deliberate or not.

Firstly as a Torch investor who has purchsed any Marina Facing unit you need to ask yourself these questions.

1- Have you been charged more than an identical unit on the other side of the tower?

2- Did SP justify this "Extra Premium" as a "Marina View"?

3- Have you got evidence that shows you have been charged a premium for a Marina View?

4- Have you got written official company evidence from SP claiming/assuring you that there is a height restriction (lower than your unit) on the plots in front of the Torch.

5- Did you transact business with Select Property in the UK, i.e was your reservation deposit paid to them directly as opposed to being paid to the developer in Dubai. This is paramount as it establishes SP and yourself as having an official business transaction. (all of your development payments go to the developer in Dhirams to Dubai) the developer is a 3rd party in the sales/marketing process.

If you answer NO to ONE of these questions then you fall into the "I've lost out on an off plan property gamble" catagory.

If you can answer YES to ALL of these questions then you have a valid case in asking SP to justify why you were charged a "premium" for a feature that they can not deliver to you.

It really is as simple as that.

I am sorry Mistermark, I haven't a clue what you are on about, the concept of " Oppurtunity cost" :nuts: when I blew all my money in the stock exchange was that my "Oppurtunity lost" :bash: and because I was mug and didn't invest in Gold was that "Opportunity Knocks" :banana:

If you look at all the sales pictures of the buildings in Dubai Marina, most of them look as though they are by the waters edge, not many of them turned out like there photos.

Good luck to you if you wish to sue, you will learn that litigation has only one winner and that is the Lawyers.

Alan

But you have got capital appreciation on your property right now, if you were to sell it.

Yes, this is true. But less capital appreciation than if MST wasn't happening, or than if I'd bought on one of the other three sides of the building. I paid a premium for two 'marina view' units on the basis of representations made to me in writing by Dubai Select, and I'm looking to them to make up the difference in capital appreciation.

I think people are getting confused here.

There is a world of difference between sueing someone for a loss of a view because a 3rd party has decided to change it's plans and build a 120 floor wall in front of your apartment, and sueing a marketing company for providing inaccurate and missleading information, be it deliberate or not.

Firstly as a Torch investor who has purchsed any Marina Facing unit you need to ask yourself these questions.

1- Have you been charged more than an identical unit on the other side of the tower?

2- Did SP justify this "Extra Premium" as a "Marina View"?

3- Have you got evidence that shows you have been charged a premium for a Marina View?

4- Have you got written official company evidence from SP claiming/assuring you that there is a height restriction (lower than your unit) on the plots in front of the Torch.

5- Did you transact business with Select Property in the UK, i.e was your reservation deposit paid to them directly as opposed to being paid to the developer in Dubai. This is paramount as it establishes SP and yourself as having an official business transaction. (all of your development payments go to the developer in Dhirams to Dubai) the developer is a 3rd party in the sales/marketing process.

If you answer NO to ONE of these questions then you fall into the "I've lost out on an off plan property gamble" catagory.

If you can answer YES to ALL of these questions then you have a valid case in asking SP to justify why you were charged a "premium" for a feature that they can not deliver to you.

It really is as simple as that.

I agree with you on every point except one: question 5. Even if deposits were paid to Torch Select Limited (and I honestly can't remember whether this was the case or not - I'd be interested to know), it's necessary only to demonstrate that they were the authorised selling agent and not some disinterested bystander to establish that they're responsible for our losses. BTW, irrespective of who was paid the deposit, it's my understanding that the liability rests with SP/DS, not Torch Select.

I am sorry Mistermark, I haven't a clue what you are on about, the concept of " Oppurtunity cost" :nuts: when I blew all my money in the stock exchange was that my "Oppurtunity lost" :bash: and because I was mug and didn't invest in Gold was that "Opportunity Knocks" :banana:

If you look at all the sales pictures of the buildings in Dubai Marina, most of them look as though they are by the waters edge, not many of them turned out like there photos.

Good luck to you if you wish to sue, you will learn that litigation has only one winner and that is the Lawyers.

Alan

"You will learn"... pompous, or what?

Actually, it's quite possible for litigants to come out on top if they have a strong case, a decent lawyer and the willingness to pursue their claims.

One thing that would increase the chances of this happening would be if those of us who were sold 'marina view' apartments that will now view the back of three supertalls would join together in a group action against DS, in the unlikely event that they don't settle beforehand. The more people there are who take the view that they've still gained something, in a growing market, and it's not worth the effort, the harder it becomes for the rest of us.

Ive' learned the hard way when it comes to litigation, that was my point, tell me what kind of strong case you have? nothing is built yet, you are claiming for something that doesn't exist, all you would be entitled to is the premium you paid on top of the Apartment cost for a Marina view, that's all, and if you are not satisfied, they will give you a full refund, why dont you have a friendly chat with a Solicitor, especially one who deals in Dubai, and get back to us.
On your other point, I wondered when this would turn into a group action, from I am going to sue the arse of them, to "United we stand divided we fall" lets all do it together brothers.

Alan

"You will learn"... pompous, or what?

Actually, it's quite possible for litigants to come out on top if they have a strong case, a decent lawyer and the willingness to pursue their claims.

One thing that would increase the chances of this happening would be if those of us who were sold 'marina view' apartments that will now view the back of three supertalls would join together in a group action against DS, in the unlikely event that they don't settle beforehand. The more people there are who take the view that they've still gained something, in a growing market, and it's not worth the effort, the harder it becomes for the rest of us.

Miskermark, I really think its ironic of you to suggest that those who think that their property is still gaining in value are somehow destroying your prospective legal action against the seller... what the hell do you think all the bullshit on this thread (time and time again!) is doing to the people who have invested in this project????

Doesn't it make you wonder?

How about we take all this crap off this thread, and direct it the thread belonging to what is after all the culprit, i.e. the Marina Sky Tower thread?

Miskermark, I really think its ironic of you to suggest that those who think that their property is still gaining in value are somehow destroying your prospective legal action against the seller... what the hell do you think all the bullshit on this thread (time and time again!) is doing to the people who have invested in this project????

Doesn't it make you wonder?

How about we take all this crap off this thread, and direct it the thread belonging to what is after all the culprit, i.e. the Marina Sky Tower thread?

I was simply suggesting that those who are willing to accept 'marina view' apartments with no marina views, rather than hold the selling agent to account, aren't making it any easier for those of us who take a less lenient view.

When you wrote 'what the hell do you think all the bullshit on this thread... is doing to the people who have invested in this project', were you trying to suggest that discussion of the potential impact on Torch values resulting from the MST development is impacting on Torch values, rather than the fact of MST being built?

I don't see the point in discussing this on the MST thread. I'm concerned about the impact of that project on the development I'm already buying in; I'm not interested in MST itself.

This is what most of Dubai developers count on ... investors make a profit despite broken promises and so don't take any further action.

I think if it was me, and the view was vitally important to me, I'd just sell while most people are unaware of the Sky Towers and re-invest the capital somewhere else. You won't lose anything as your investment should have appreciated the same as other Marina developments.

You have 6+ months to let agents lie about future views on your behalf and pass the bad news onto someone else. Trust me when I say that I have yet to meet an agent who has a problem with that!

Ive' learned the hard way when it comes to litigation, that was my point, tell me what kind of strong case you have? nothing is built yet, you are claiming for something that doesn't exist, all you would be entitled to is the premium you paid on top of the Apartment cost for a Marina view, that's all, and if you are not satisfied, they will give you a full refund, why dont you have a friendly chat with a Solicitor, especially one who deals in Dubai, and get back to us.
On your other point, I wondered when this would turn into a group action, from I am going to sue the arse of them, to "United we stand divided we fall" lets all do it together brothers.

Alan

I'm currently negotiating with DS to withdraw from my contracts on two 'marina view' Torch apartments, unless they offer me satisfactory terms to continue with my reservations.

If these negotiations lead nowhere I will talk to my solicitor and get advice as to whether to cancel the contracts, what compensation to seek and from whom. In all likelihood I will be advised not to break the contracts, to wait for the loss to crystallise and become quantifiable (i.e. for MST to be built) then go after the UK selling agent, but I'll be guided.

FWIW I'm due to take delivery of two Dubai apartments next month which were delayed by 1.5 and 2 years respectively (Goldcrest Views and Lake Terrace). In both cases I've taken legal advice over an extended period of time and will be issuing summonses the day I get the keys for loss of rental income, interest etc. I've gone into this in some detail and I'm absolutely confident of recovering my losses and costs.

There seems to be a culture on this forum of elsewhere of shrugging the shoulders and implying 'It's Dubai; what chance do I have of litigating? Besides, I've done well with my investment'. IMHO, as long as this attitude prevails, developers in Dubai will continue to treat purchasers like schmucks. Some probably are, so may deserve it, but a lot aren't.

Well good luck to you, let us know how you get on, but my health and wife prevents me from fighting the world nowadays, cant even have a bit of road rage anymore.

Alan

pics by charlie big potatoes, 11th may:
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4661/dubaimay08125qk7.jpg
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7540/dubaimay08116dk8.jpg
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4799/dubaimay08015gx2.jpg
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6471/dubaimay08002bg2.jpg

I saw in the Gulfnews few new resales from the Betterhomes with nice handover date:)

Dec 2008

I saw in the Gulfnews few new resales from the Betterhomes with nice handover date:)

Dec 2008

3 Months after The Point then!

When I bought my Torch unit I wasn't interested in a Marina Facing view - and although many disagree with my opinion - I don't believe views are a huge deal in the Tallest Block. People either want to live in a crowded supertall environment or they don't. In any case the marina itself is now taking a rather pathetic second place to the shoreside development. There will be relatively few yachts in there, no sailing yachts, and even motor yachts will be limited to about 80ft by the bridges. Believe me - waterside this marina is going to be no great shakes, - and it will be almost permanently in shade. Sometime after I bought my unit (which has an 03 aspect incidentally) I did see a full pricing list for the Torch and I was pretty surprised at how little the premium was - according to the list anyway - for Marina Facing units as opposed to others. Using that list I would guess SP wouldn't be too averse to settling with Marina Facing investors by paying them the difference between their unit(s) and say units on the 03, 04 aspect side which look at MH a few metres away. Comparable situation to that which will exist if and when MST is built. It would be a lot cheaper for SP than defending some big action by a united group of baying Torch investors, but as far as I can see investors will gain very little for their loss - just the very small premium they paid for that view at the time of purchase.

Dear Mistermark - when you say "Marina View" do you mean the full-on Marina Facing appartments or those with a supposed Marina View but actually facing Marina Heights?

Did anyone in Dubai notice if the glass cladding has started yet, as SP said it would in their recently published build schedule ?

Would be nice to see some panels going on

http://i29.tinypic.com/9aaexf.jpg

Hmmm ... If this was published this time last year, i would say these guys have a game plan. As at April 1st 2008, they must have their heads in the cloud. Why would a developer chose to paint the exterior/interior of an uncompleted building?

It needs to be bitumen painted before they can fit the cladding.

By August we will see how far behind the 40th floor milestone they will be.

[QUOTE=High Times;20815165]I think people are getting confused here.

No comment

p.s. IMO we should all sell our Torch apartments and buy in the MST, what do you think?

There is no way in hell I would want to live in that ugly over crowded Marina Sky Towers. 50% of which will have views no better than the torch.

Marina Sky Towers is also a very bad investment. You will need to tie your money up there for 7 years with no return in the middle of the Dubai property crash due in 3 or 4 years time. It will also be overpriced to factor in the increasing build costs.

I would be amazed if they managed to sell out Marina Sky Towers in its current form.

It is plain and simple, Select Property need to refund all marina facing owners the difference in price between marina facing units and non marina facing units from the original price list. That is all you should expect, not more.

It is plain and simple, Select Property need to refund all marina facing owners the difference in price between marina facing units and non marina facing units from the original price list. That is all you should expect, not more.

But Steve, the differance between the two dont compare to the loss of view, you may as well bought anywhere. This new thing is a real nightmare and SP need to come up with a bit more than the differance. I read on the BC thread that BC was painfully slow compared to The Point, not for those in it for 2 and a half years at the 6th floor. Mind you completion according to them is still 13 weeks away maybe they have employed David Copperfield

"By August we will see how far behind the 40th floor milestone they will be."

..... and then I can write a load more shitty stuff about SP while continuing to blow sunshine up Cayan's rear end!!!!!!

It's a shame someone with so much to offer this forum has to keep slagging off a company just because they knocked him back for employment! How about acknowledging that this is in fact going up at a pretty reasonable rate now - and progress compares favourably to surrounding towers; - and try to do it concentrating on this building and avoiding the need to refer to to the lack of progress at BC or the Point. Just once give SP some credit for something they're doing OK. It would do your credibility the World of good - because for a long time now it has been obvious that a lot of what you write is just written because you have favourites; - and then there are others who have to suffer a regular drubbing because they don't happen to be in your charmed circle!

Yousuf

LAY OFF TrueBlue. I for one find his presence a great help.

He is a smart man and his opinions are worth having.

Yousuf

LAY OFF TrueBlue. I for one find his presence a great help.

He is a smart man and his opinions are worth having.

His construction knowledge is fantastic - and extremely valuable - I would agree with you entirely. His continual bashing of SP is just boring - and his bias impairs the value of some of his information.

......... and people kissing his ring don't help that aspect of his contribution, they merely encourage him!

http://i28.tinypic.com/29xfcqb.jpg

Much as I think you have the most level headed, constructive suggestions so far (in my opinion) and now that I have somewhat calmed down (no point crying over spilt milk - sod 'um), my view is all this talk of litigation will hold no weight in court and it would be very difficult to win such a case. It is also further damaging our investment and potentially increasing risks on TT project.

Most of what you have said I agree with.

here's where your missing a trick;

The key factor is that SP the (Marketing Agents) are responsible for providing accurate information.

I have paid a considerable premium on my unit as opposed to an identical unit on the reverse side of the tower.

I have signed conformation letters on headed paper from a UK limited company (SP) detailing 2 offers on the same floor;

1- Internet City view = AED X
2- Marina View = AED Y

The only reason I went for option 2 was that I have a written guarantee from SP that no tower will be built at a height of more than ** floors (this number being more than 10 floors below mine).

I dont care where the information came from, or if it even exists (i very much doubt it). SP provided it to me in writing and in doing so have deleberately influenced my decisoin to pay them more money, for the same asset.

Whichever way you look at this it is classed as "missrepresentation". If I decide to pursue it in the courts then SP will be forced (by disclosure) to provide the factual evidence they have in their possession which allowed them to make such a claim. If they have this evidence then they will go to court. Then it's a 50/50 decision on how the judiciary feels on the day. I have won and lost in courts before and i am wise enough to know that justice seldom prevails on the day.

My theory is that SP have no such evidence to back up their missleading claims and I am entitled to the difference between X and Y.

No more and no less than this.

I will not apply my claim until DAS have officially launched their 100+ floor towers, sales have been made in the higher floors, and construction is well underway. This will be at least 1 year down the road.

The difference in what i paid for my units, and what i can sell for now, or in 1 or 2 years time is totally irrelevant.

What is relevant is the facts of the case (documented in writing), and the willingness to persue any loss incurred as a direct result of being unlawfully decieved by a UK Limited Company in a busniness transaction within the UK.

His construction knowledge is fantastic - and extremely valuable - I would agree with you entirely. His continual bashing of SP is just boring - and his bias impairs the value of some of his information.

......... and people kissing his ring don't help that aspect of his contribution, they merely encourage him!

TB's contribution is second to none, I dont think he knocks the tower, maybe SP, but thats ok so does everyone. I would kiss his arse but hes scots. What have you ever contributed?

[QUOTE=High Times;20872904]Most of what you have said I agree with.

No comment

"By August we will see how far behind the 40th floor milestone they will be."

..... and then I can write a load more shitty stuff about SP while continuing to blow sunshine up Cayan's rear end!!!!!!

It's a shame someone with so much to offer this forum has to keep slagging off a company just because they knocked him back for employment! How about acknowledging that this is in fact going up at a pretty reasonable rate now - and progress compares favourably to surrounding towers; - and try to do it concentrating on this building and avoiding the need to refer to to the lack of progress at BC or the Point. Just once give SP some credit for something they're doing OK. It would do your credibility the World of good - because for a long time now it has been obvious that a lot of what you write is just written because you have favourites; - and then there are others who have to suffer a regular drubbing because they don't happen to be in your charmed circle!


Why in your words give credit for something sp are doing OK, OK dont deserve credit. Finished on time, Finished on budget, Superb finish deserve credit all of which we aint seeing. Credit where credit is due im affraid.

^^ I agree with HT on this. This is the only way to proceed in this matter.

TB's contribution is second to none

Personally I have not found any of TB's comments (mainly about concrete) to be useful, apart from the laugh I get when he tries to defend the arse end.

I just love this thread

I know I am new to posting here, although I have been following the forum since 2005, again I totally agree with High Times, this is a completely sensible approach and one that I to will be looking into, again if those who are affected could come together and take this forward once we are in knowledge of the affects this may or will have.

Personally I have not found any of TB's comments to be useful, apart from the laugh I get when he tries to defend the arse end.

Come on Steve thats a bit harsh. I take it you are talking about the arse end with the beautiful uninterupted views over the marina and yatch club we were sold by SP!

Yes you are right, apologies to TB, his analogy about concrete and trampolines a couple of months ago was thrilling. I am just pissed because DAS holding took a big dump in my front yard.

The difference in prices in a 2 bedroomed apartment between marina facing and the other side range between approx £2000 and £3800. That's floors 6 and 53.
Another idea would be to negotiate a furniture package. They would buy it cheaper in bulk and it would save us a lot of money too. Just food for thought.

I think the differences are greater than that I will check later. I am OK with an offer of a furniture package as compensation for the premium paid. This should be done by SP as a gesture of good will for all those who were tricked into paying a premium for inferior views.

I think the differences are greater than that I will check later. I am OK with an offer of a furniture package as compensation for the premium paid. This should be done by SP as a gesture of good will for all those who were tricked into paying a premium for inferior views.

I think this is the most realistic remedy suggestion I've seen. The difference in the sale price bewteen my 03 unit as opposed to an 05 or 06 really was surprisingly small. I can't quote figures because I can't find the paper. I know there is huge disappointment - even devastation - but how can you arrive at a price for that loss? I'll be pissed off when they get round to announcing a supertall between TT and MH and in many ways I should be pissed off anyway because 03's were sold as "Marina View" (as opposed to Marina Facing) apts. I was told I'd be looking at 2 Golf Courses and one side of the Marina - no-one mentioned MH! Ha ha! I wouldn't mind a furniture package as compensation!

Question - do you think offering a furniture package to one investor sets a precedent for all marina facing investors or only for those who obtained written confirmation that nothing would be built?

In light of current events, I suggest SP make a gesture of good will to ALL marina facing owners with a voucher towards one of their furniture packages.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2812/pricessv9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2812/pricessv9.c76ef346bc.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=88&i=pricessv9.jpg)

Above is the original price list. Take an example in the middle of the tower for a 2 bed.

Marina facing purchase cost on floor 40 was AED 1,270,438
Worst view purchase cost on floor 40 was AED 1,081,525

Premium paid for marina view was therefore AED 188,913 (approx. £27,000 or 15% of the price)

Therefore a gesture of good will of a voucher towards a furniture pack (typically £10,000 for a 2 bed) would be a compromise but most would accept this to avoid legal costs.

His construction knowledge is fantastic - and extremely valuable - I would agree with you entirely. His continual bashing of SP is just boring - and his bias impairs the value of some of his information.

......... and people kissing his ring don't help that aspect of his contribution, they merely encourage him!

Which bog did you surface from?

Wise man listens and makes his own mind up. Fools get irate and nasty.

Sorry just realised my price list was in pounds so I got all my figures wrong. Yes, Dubai Steve, the difference on the pound price list is:

6th floor £14,011
53rd floor £26,987

That's a helluva difference to end up with a worse view. In fact we, on the 6th (12th) floor will get the same view as the 53rd floor and the difference in price is £33,871.

That's a helluva difference to end up with a worse view. In fact we, on the 6th (12th) floor will get the same view as the 53rd floor and the difference in price is £33,871.

I was wrong too with my theory about a higher floor being more expensive than a better aspect.

In fact, where we all have no view, I would prefer to be on the lower floors to improve my chances of getting a towel onto one of the sun-loungers near the pool...

Actually the difference (or premium paid for marina facing view) is exactly AED 188,913 no matter what floor you are located on. So this is the benchmark of the compensation that needs to be paid for everyone who reserved with marina facing views.

For example,

Floor 23 - Marina facing (AED 1,214,438) vs Sea View (AED 1,025,525) -> Difference = AED 188,913

Floor 53 - Marina facing (AED 1,315,938) vs Sea View (AED 1,127,025) -> Difference = AED 188,913

In other words DS valued the marina view at exactly AED 188,913 when originally selling the units with false information about the view, which they are still touting as of today on their website: http://www.selectproperty.com/invest/dubai/investment-property/the-torch/ and for which we have proof that there will be no such view as soon as the marina sky towers are officially passed by Sheikh Mo.

And the difference between my 3 bed 04 unit and 02 unit is 427,380 AED, Ouch... suddenly we are not talking furniture pack money !!! not to mention the 188,913 on my 2 bed unit....:ohno:

Actually the difference (or premium paid for marina facing view) is exactly AED 188,913 no matter what floor you are located on. So this is the benchmark of the compensation that needs to be paid for everyone who reserved with marina facing views.

For example,

Floor 23 - Marina facing (AED 1,214,438) vs Sea View (AED 1,025,525) -> Difference = AED 188,913

Floor 53 - Marina facing (AED 1,315,938) vs Sea View (AED 1,127,025) -> Difference = AED 188,913

In other words DS valued the marina view at exactly AED 188,913 when originally selling the units with false information about the view, which they are still touting as of today on their website: http://www.selectproperty.com/invest/dubai/investment-property/the-torch/ and for which we have proof that there will be no such view as soon as the marina sky towers are officially passed by Sheikh Mo.

You are right for those who paid as per the original price list.

I bought based on the 2nd price list which, from recollection was 4.4% higher than the original creating a difference of AED 197,225.

I'm sure the price list was updated again and I recall some of the expensive 3 beds taking a while for them to shift.

Well a group lawsuit against Select Property in the UK is the way to go here. There are many good lawyers who work on a no win no fee basis for such group action. I had a similar case for a property in the UK which later has a motorway built close to it an everyone in the area was compensated approx £20,000 from the lawsuit.

Found the Botanica Views section on http://www.selectproperty.com/invest/dubai/investment-property/botanica/views_botanica/ I don't seem to be able to find The Torch views section.. LOL

Guys do you honestly think a crap package from IKEA is a fair trade for loss of view? You are easily pleased if you are ready to accept this in settlement plus you gotta sit on that shit. Stotty will be driving home in his f430 tonight laughing all the way to the bank after reading todays post. Dont sell yourselves too cheap.

We can leave it for the lawyer to decide what is best. In the meantime we need to assemble a list of all of those who want to proceed so they can be contacted by the lawyer for the group action if Marina Sky Towers is passed in its current form. A website will be setup for this later, no need to respond here. Back to discussions on concrete and trampolines please...

I take it back re the difference in prices between the units having seen the list again now. I had only been comparing my 03 "Marina View" with 05 and 06 "Marina Facing." Those 02 units were a comparative steal as it turns out. Can't work out why they were so much cheaper than 01's though, when the two units on each of the other sides of each floor were piced the same. Was the chance of getting a Sea View at all from an 02 minimal even from the outset? What was the particular downside of an 02 thought to be?

I agree with High Times and disagree with thetorch. It's irrelevant to us what Emaar did or didn't tell SP and whether SP deliberately or negligently misrepresented the true position to us. All we need do is that we acted on the basis of representations they made to us that were untrue and that we lost money as a result.

It's also irrelevant whether or not SP made any specific representations about capital growth. What matters is that the capital growth of the 'marina view' apartments has been adversely affected by the lack of marina views.

BTW, some people here have said they'd be happy to settle for the difference in release price between marina and non-marina view apartments. Personally I think that's insufficient: I'll be holding out for the difference in sale price when completed, as that's the true loss figure.

Above is the original price list. Take an example in the middle of the tower for a 2 bed.

Steve,

Any chance you can post the original price list for 3 beds please.

:cheers:

This is not a facetious question BTW but how will anyone know what their Marina Facing/View would have been worth on completion - assuming MST had never happened? How can that even be projected now? There would be so many technical and legal arguments as to why values in such and such an equivalent situation are not comparable. It would be a bit of a nightmare to try to arrive at a notional figure surely.

You are absolutely right. I talked to the lawer of our company, who is in business since decades in the UAE and he was just laughing about any intention to receive some compensation for MH and TT owners for having an appartment in the shade of this ugly monster called MST - if they build it as proposed. He said, this is normal in Dubai, residents and owners have to suffer from being blocked by new buildings, the noise levels etc. and there is no way to get around that. The same will happen to JBR owners and residents if they do the terrible development where the Oasis hotel is located... If the development goes through sell your appartments as long as MST is no common knowlegde...

^^ I suggest you fire your lawyer or explain about the letters DS are sending to the buyers with guarantees. English law is different to UAE law. Our lawyer says quite the opposite and there is a very strong case regadless of the contract. Because something is usual in Dubai does not make it legal for a company in the UK to sell in bad faith.

This is not a facetious question BTW but how will anyone know what their Marina Facing/View would have been worth on completion - assuming MST had never happened? How can that even be projected now? There would be so many technical and legal arguments as to why values in such and such an equivalent situation are not comparable. It would be a bit of a nightmare to try to arrive at a notional figure surely.

The case can only be made on the price difference at point of sale. Projection is pointless. But if you want to go that route you can use the fact that DS valued marina view at approx 15% more than sea view. So you can get a valuation at todays market price and 15% of that is your loss because of MST. But as an example, a 2 bed marina view according to bhomes is worth approx 1.9m at today's market price so the loss would be AED 285,000 / £40,000 today because of MST. If MST had gaps between the towers which allowed for a view of the marina then you would not have such a strong case but MST will completely block 100% of your marina view and this is provable in court.

The case can only be made on the price difference at point of sale. Projection is pointless. But if you want to go that route you can use the fact that DS valued marina view at approx 15% more than sea view. So you can get a vluation at todays market price and 15% of that is your loss because of MST.

:applause:

Precisely. DS established a precedent for marina views when they published their price list. My type 06 'marina facing' apartments on what were originally the 52nd and 53rd floors have counterparts at the back of the building, exactly the same size and shape but without the promised views. Value one of those on completion, calculate the premium in percentage terms paid for the 'marina view' and that's your loss.

Remember the case is against DS/SP in the UK not Torch Select in the UAE who have an entry in the signed contract which does not allow you to take legal action against them in such a case. Therefore you may be limited to the point of sale differential in legal terms.

If the development goes through sell your appartments as long as MST is no common knowlegde...

Apart from the issues with DS/SP, does anyone think selling now is the wise thing to do?

I'm personally not convinced and believe there could be room for more capital growth in spite of probably not having a view. Furthemore, if we do have views for a couple of years the rental income for this time could be lucrative. (noise could be a factor however).

Downside is the difficulty attracting buyers after MST is common knowledge and the overall impact MST has on this end of the marina...

The no-win-no-fee practices look at a case and see if they can win and get the money back, they'll give you an answer.(they'll not return your calls)

I've been through this before, and what you are saying is simple not going to get you anything.

You're going to put the blame an DS ,they pass you on to SP & in turn they hand it in the direction of master developer then on to the big man, the big man says it not me it my brother, but i will revoke your right to ever enter the country anyway.

DS has acted in good faith unless proven otherwise. What you need is a smoking gun, a letter from the people in control Dubai-side addressed to DS, POST DATED, saying something damming.

Working the margin of compensation is too early, what if the market crashes by time of hand over, & whats stopping DS from running down the quality of finishing on the whole building to pay for your action?:ohno:

A good discount on your furniture pack is the absolute best you can hope for.

The no-win-no-fee practices look at a case and see if they can win and get the money back, they'll give you an answer.(they'll not return your calls)

I've been through this before, and what you are saying is simple not going to get you anything.

You're going to put the blame an DS ,they pass you on to SP & in turn they hand it in the direction of master developer then on to the big man, the big man says it not me it my brother, but i will revoke your right to ever enter the country anyway.

DS has acted in good faith unless proven otherwise. What you need is a smoking gun, a letter from the people in control Dubai-side addressed to DS, POST DATED, saying something damming.

Working the margin of compensation is too early, what if the market crashes by time of hand over, & whats stopping DS from running down the quality of finishing on the whole building to pay for your action?:ohno:

A good discount on your furniture pack is the absolute best you can hope for.

No. I think you're wrong from start to finish.

I for one have no interest in pursuing any kind of claim against the developer, Torch Select Limited, in relation to this matter.

However, I consider I have an excellent case against Dubai Select (now rebranded Select Property), the UK selling agent. I and others certainly have a 'smoking gun' proving that they made representations about the views that certain apartments would enjoy and what would be built on the former Emaar sales office plot. Indeed, today, one of their staff emailed me to say that they had received no correspondence about the future of the sales centre plot when they made those representations, which strengthens my case since it points to them having acted negligently or even fraudulently, rather than in good faith.

As to whether compensation takes place now or down the line, the technical answer might be that our true losses can only be ascertained once MST is fully completed. However, I think now is a good time to open discussions about this matter with SP, because if I were in their position I'd rather go for a full and final settlement now than then, and as a customer I'd be tempted to go for a reasonable solution now instead of holding out.

jetsetter, I also think there is big capital gain still to be had in general by keeping units in the Torch. Those who did not have a marina view are not affected really by MST. It is only those with a marina view who will loose at least 15% of the value of their units market price. Although I am concerned that it would be difficult to sell a marina facing unit in the torch because of the loss of privacy, open views etc. I can no longer imagine wanting to live there so the price will drop accordingly and the units will become 2nd choice over neighbouring units with a more open view. However, the location will keep prices up in general and many would prefer to pay 3000 psf for a torch unit in years to come rather than 5000 psf for MST units.

Points to ponder...

1.My res form states :-
" This reservation form constitutes the entire understanding and agreement between the parties and supercedes any and all prior agreements(including any representations,warranties and covenants)..."
My contract/res. form issued by DS/SP does not mention the view from the apartment.

2.Marina facing /Sea facing as the phrase suggests only implies the direction the apartments face and not view.
According to the price list posted above , the apartments sold with marina view were not sold at a premium.

What case do we have ???

Small point, but the last pictures I have seen don't seem to have any thing built in front? so you are going legal on what might be done in the future? I have also read similar stuff in most of the threads who at some point in the construction phase have challenges but have never seen or heard of awards or compensation for the purchasers?

Can't we get back to posting some great pictures and counting the floor progress and trying to work out how small that balcony really is!!

I pity Sheik Mo's IT rep trying to explain why his email has crashed... Out of interest I never got any responses to my offer to do a deal with any one who wanted out of the Torch.

Points to ponder...

1.My res form states :-
" This reservation form constitutes the entire understanding and agreement between the parties and supercedes any and all prior agreements(including any representations,warranties and covenants)..."
My contract/res. form issued by DS/SP does not mention the view from the apartment.

2.Marina facing /Sea facing as the phrase suggests only implies the direction the apartments face and not view.
According to the price list posted above , the apartments sold with marina view were not sold at a premium.

What case do we have ???

It's pretty clear we don't have a case against Torch Select, the developer. The case is that we were induced into the Torch Select sale and purchase agreements because of negligent or fraudulent representations made by Select Property, and it's against them that we have a potential claim.

I believe SP described some apartments as marina view and others as marina facing, depending on whether they were along the front or on a corner. However the website, brochures and emails were quite specific about there being 'unrivalled marina views' and 'direct views of the marina'.

^^ They are still promoting these views today.

common sense should be used when purchasing real estate, money does not grow on trees, so one should do there home work.

Before buying anything, go see the plot, and observe the surroundings, and read contract at least twice, and never sign any thing unless you know what it means.

^^ and ignore legally binding, written and signed guarantees from developers that nothing above a certain height will be built in front.

Surely to be "legally binding" any statement made by DS about guaranteed views would need to be something more solid than anything anyone has at present. Surely there is a difference between "making a statement" and "making a legally binding statement." I'm playing devil's advocate here - not claiming I have the necessary legal expertise. I would imagine that to be watertight in a legal sense such a statement would have to be in a contract or at least issued as some kind of affidavit.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4463/marinareadyforrende8na5.jpg

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/7901/marinareadyforrender9gg4.jpg

Surely to be "legally binding" any statement made by DS about guaranteed views would need to be something more solid than anything anyone has at present. Surely there is a difference between "making a statement" and "making a legally binding statement." I'm playing devil's advocate here - not claiming I have the necessary legal expertise. I would imagine that to be watertight in a legal sense such a statement would have to be in a contract or at least issued as some kind of affidavit.

I understand that Dubai's contract law is based very closely on the UK's. In general terms, if a seller makes specific representations about something in the course of a commercial negotiation that the buyer can show they relied on when entering into the agreement, if it is subsequently proven that those representations were untrue then generally that party is liable for damages.

In this case, as Dubai Steve has pointing out, SP's website is even now making assertions about The Torch having 'spectacular' marina views. And several of us have emails from their salespeople assuring us nothing tall would be built on the old sales centre plot before we bought.

The equivalent of 20 world-trade buildings within 300 meter square plot with an unconvincing public transport to service them, utter greed.

The whole set up is untested, & I don't think it will work with that density once every building is up.

The three towers might just tip the scale & make the best end of the marina in to the worst.

Hi All


I read this report from David Mcgee home thoughts how right he is.
http://www.homethoughtsfromdubai.com/



Jumeirah Beach Residence is about to get more ugly. Think of a cluster of high ugly towers near where you live. And if you are lucky enough not to have anything of this nature close to you, think of somewhere you have seen such nauseating ugliness, either on tv, or holiday or in pictures. Well Jumeirah Baach Residence will challenge any ‘candidate’ you put forward. And now all those smug people who say that THEIR apartment has an unobstructed sea view, are about the learn some of the reality of Dubai. I went for a run, well more a brisk walk the other evening and discovered to my horror that the vast tranche of land between those apartments with the ‘unobstructed views’ are about to lose it, and no doubt value. This land is about to become another dense ‘herd’ of residential towers. One ‘eye-sore’ will soon be able to look at another. Why is such greed necessary when it is generally accepted JBR was a mistake, and the worst example of a development in the otherwise proud landscape. The government is surely not in such financial need. Bring in tax if you need the money badly. But please don’t destroy any more of the beautiful coast-line. :cheers:

Is is true that they're going to built something in front of JBR? That's madness can someone confirm this info?:ohno: Isn't there enough coastline to be built towards Abu-Dhabi? Why do they want to make Marina truly the worst place for human existence?

So they mean Dubai Promenade? I see. But that should not obstruct views from JBR.

I am over on a fact finding mission to gather evidence for my full blown assult on SP.

On a posative note the tower itself is growing fast and they are preparing floor 23 today.

Here is a pic taken at 6:00 pm Dubai time today

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2292/img0772tn1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Construction wise the Torch is the busiest tower in the tallest block with more workers, noise and general activity than the surrounding towers.

Marina Pinnacle is very quiet and so is Princess.

I think the floor count ontop of the podium goes.

Lower Plaza
Upper Plaza
1,2,3,4,5, and so on.

You can see here that on floors 1 and 2 interior work is well underway with the partition walls constructed.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8729/img0776pj0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

A close up of one of the rooms on floor 2 that is being worked on.

It does look like a lot is going on inside the building at night too. Just been down to marina walk and still a lot of activity at 10:00 pm.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9769/img0775dv1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

High Times - Great Pictures thanks - I hope we can get some internal pics soon to get an idea of size and perspective..

Thanks for the pics HT. How long are you there for? Where are you staying? I am also there late next week.

Thanks for the post HT, progress looks very good.

At least I will get £100 from Mackie towards my view compensation :banana:

This is still a great building no matter what, view, or no view.

Nice pictures HighTimes.
Is there any news on cladding start, show appartment.. have you spoken to anyone involved in the construction? and are you enjoying your stay?

No cladding yet guys but they have done a fair bit of work inside the podium.

They have started painting some of the car park decks.

I saw the white paint and have requested magnolia for my bay (far more class).

http://i30.tinypic.com/2z9jqbo.jpg

Went for a wonder round the building today at around 6 ish and they were pumping concrete up to the top doing a floor plate i think.

http://i31.tinypic.com/140zuox.jpg

I had a chat to some of the workers and they said that Select Property were a load of Wucking Fankers. but my Urdu is a little rusty these days so forgive me if i got that a little mixed up.

http://i30.tinypic.com/2qxqko4.jpg

Great shots High Times. The Torch is progressing very well. I read somewhere that cladding work was supposed to start in June :)

Hello High Times, hope you're enjoying yourself out in Dubai. The bank holiday weather is crap here in the UK as usual so enjoy that nice sunshine. :)

Many thanks for the updates they're great. It might be worth you going along to the SP offices in Emaar Business Park if you have 5 minutes to see what they know about the MST monster etc.....you can also bolluck them about the Marina Views as well. :nuts:

They're up to floor 21 now so still averaging a floor a week. This is floor 15 by the official contract numbering. So if you've bought say apartment 1501 then this is your floor. The numbers on the outside of TT are 6 numbers more than the official contract numbering.............hope that makes sense. :cheers:

Hello High Times, hope you're enjoying yourself out in Dubai. The bank holiday weather is crap here in the UK as usual so enjoy that nice sunshine. :)

Many thanks for the updates they're great. It might be worth you going along to the SP offices in Emaar Business Park if you have 5 minutes to see what they know about the MST monster etc.....you can also bolluck them about the Marina Views as well. :nuts:

They're up to floor 21 now so still averaging a floor a week. This is floor 15 by the official contract numbering. So if you've bought say apartment 1501 then this is your floor. The numbers on the outside of TT are 6 numbers more than the official contract numbering.............hope that makes sense. :cheers:

Morris, wouldn't apartment 1501 be on floor 21 (including the 6 fractional ownership floors)which according to the DCE numbering will be floor 27?

Or am I confused ?

I sent a couple of emails to Sheik Mo's office a couple of weeks ago - has anyone recieved a reciept acknowledgement from his office yet, as I have not ?

Morris, wouldn't apartment 1501 be on floor 21 (including the 6 fractional ownership floors)which according to the DCE numbering will be floor 27?

Or am I confused ?

You're getting a little confused and thinking too deeply about this. The DCE numbering is simply 6 more than the actual "contract" numbering.

So apartment 1501 is on the floor DCE have numbered as 21.

And for example 1201 is on the floor numbered by DCE as 18.

So when we get much higher, apartment 6301 will be on the DCE numbered floor 6901.

Whatever floor you've bought just add 6 to it, to tie-in with the DCE number on the side of the building.

Hope you've got it now. :banana:

You're getting a little confused and thinking too deeply about this. The DCE numbering is simply 6 more than the actual "contract" numbering.

So apartment 1501 is on the floor DCE have numbered as 21.

And for example 1201 is on the floor numbered by DCE as 18.

So when we get much higher, apartment 6301 will be on the DCE numbered floor 6901.

Whatever floor you've bought just add 6 to it, to tie-in with the DCE number on the side of the building.

Hope you've got it now. :banana:

Ok but isn't the contract numbering 6 floors out anyway? For example apartment 1201 on the contract is actually on the 18th floor of the tower because six floors were added at the bottom? Add to that the 6 floors the DCE numbering is out by and you have a 12 floor difference from the contract floor number.

If I am still wrong I'll just give up :bash:

The DCE out-numbering by 6 floors and the contract out-numbering by 6 floors is THE SAME OUTNUMBERING! not additonal. There is only one time the 6 floor changes were made. It wasn't done twice. Like my post. It's one post. I won't be posting this post again, just the once. If I copied and pasted this post and waited 30 seconds and then reposted it, then this post would be done twice, not once.

Once and twice are so confusing sometimes, I always get then confused.

^^ On the last paragraph you talked about confusion twice.


... And how can you always get them confused, when they confuse you only sometimes and not everytime? :weird:



:tongue2:

It's not possible in reality for somebody to be confused twice, as you would expect that if they were confused the first time they would have learnt from it which would prevent this from happening to them again.

Well clearly chaps, I hear what you say, but the issue of a simple extension of 6 floors on a building has caused much more confusion than normal humans would anticipate. I'm glad I could help clarify the issue. You know what they say, twice bitten, once as shy.

Is it a Monday, feels like a Sunday, these bank holidays are so confusing !!

In Dubai, a Sunday feels like a Monday and a Thursday like a Friday. And a Saturday feels like Karachi.

In Dubai, a Sunday feels like a Monday and a Thursday like a Friday. And a Saturday feels like Karachi.

And Saturdays not the same without football !!

BTW I haven't Barry McSharry on about "skanky mancs" since Tery slipped
(LOL) and we won everthing going ???
You know what they say about people in glass houses and so on

BTW no sign of glass on the TORCH (18th may on SP Flowchart) - But progrees is good nowadays

In Dubai, a Sunday feels like a Monday and a Thursday like a Friday. And a Saturday feels like Karachi.

And Saturdays not the same without football !!

BTW I haven't heard Barry McSharry on about "skanky mancs" since Tery slipped
(LOL) and we won everthing going ???
You know what they say about people in glass houses and so on

BTW no sign of glass on the TORCH (18th may on SP Flowchart) - But progrees is good nowadays

This 1st pic was taken on 25th May. You can see the rebar done for the balcony walls and no rebar in the core structure yet

http://i32.tinypic.com/6r0cr9.jpg

In this 2nd pic you can see that 24 hours later they have got the balcony walls shuttered up ready for concrete and the rebar is ready for the next core jump

http://i30.tinypic.com/rssr2b.jpg

Anjam - I am only here until Fri/Sat then off to Thailand for a week.
Morris - I am glad that it is pissing down in England, makes me feel even better. :)

Today we talk to Shumsul Watatwat, winner of the DCE employee of the month award. Unfortunately for Shumsul he was caught smoking by one of the site supervisors and as a result has been deducted 1 weeks salary. So bang goes the backy budget for this month Shumsul.

When we interviewd Shumsul, we asked -

“Why were you so stupid to get caught smoking Shumsul”?

He replied in a heavy Bangladeshi accent.

“It vas my frend, Sadjit. Stoopid blody bastad. I told him to kip look owt bud he was too bizy looking at English voman titys. So when I vos smoking I see enlish voman and look at tity too. Ven I stand up I knock shisha pipe over and it make catch fire to my kandoora. Oh dear god blimy me, within 5 seconds I was on lots of fire real bad man. Supervisor said what makes it vorse is I am crane driver and shuld ave know better because when I am waving around in my cab to put out kandoora I making crane fly around marina and knocking down some towers that make skyscraper city people very angry”.

So there you have it, an interview with a real DCE employee on site here at the Torch.

http://i30.tinypic.com/117fiok.jpg

lol

The DCE out-numbering by 6 floors and the contract out-numbering by 6 floors is THE SAME OUTNUMBERING! not additonal. There is only one time the 6 floor changes were made. It wasn't done twice. Like my post. It's one post. I won't be posting this post again, just the once. If I copied and pasted this post and waited 30 seconds and then reposted it, then this post would be done twice, not once.

Once and twice are so confusing sometimes, I always get then confused.

Ok- I get it now, honest mistake. I always confuse once with twice, probably the reason my girfriends left me!

Anjam - I am only here until Fri/Sat then off to Thailand for a week.
Morris - I am glad that it is pissing down in England, makes me feel even better. :)

HT- I'll probably bump into you Thursday/Friday around the Marina. I guess you'll be the one following the poor workers around with a microphone.

PS-Still pissing down here in the UK

We have had glorious sunshine in Shetland (Britains most northerly island) for the last 6 weeks. Don't want to speak too soon though as it makes a change from us having the worst weather in Britain.

Developer and Contractor Agree to Start Again in Order to Resolve Floor Numbering Issue.
(Dubai) As many as 60 Workers toiled late into the night yesterday reversing months of work, putting right a floor numbering blunder which has plaqued the Torch site in recent weeks.
A spokesman for DS, stated that the completion date would not be affected.
In an unprecedented move, neighbouring building site Princess Tower also followed suit in order to coincide completion dates.
http://i31.tinypic.com/6enpes.jpg

Developer and Contractor Agree to Start Again in Order to Resolve Floor Numbering Issue.
(Dubai) As many as 60 Workers toiled late into the night yesterday reversing months of work, putting right a floor numbering blunder which has plaqued the Torch site in recent weeks.
A spokesman for DS stated completion date would not be affected.
http://i31.tinypic.com/6enpes.jpg

^^:lol: Did Princess Tower make the same mistake?
It must be a conspiracy against investors to confuse them twice.

http://i31.tinypic.com/r271ah.jpg

http://i25.tinypic.com/2zipl6f.jpg

http://i31.tinypic.com/r271ah.jpg

^^ Is that the framework for the glass being put up on the 03 flat?

http://i25.tinypic.com/2zipl6f.jpg

^^ Great picture Scoot.

How easy is it to get access to the top of MH? I am there this weekend and would love to see the views and take some pics.

good progress

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2188/2526887270_f6fdb049d1_o.jpg

You can see today that all the wall shuttering is done and they are putting the floor supports for pour floor 23 on Sat/Sun.

http://i31.tinypic.com/15zi83l.jpg

This pic was taken on Sunday night, after theyhad poured the floor (i think).

They were still pumping concrete up untill late into the night.

I have uploaded the high res pic so if you download it, you can zoom in and see the chappie with the yellow t-shirt and safety hat, checking out the totaly unobstructed marina view.

You can certainly get an idea of the size of the rooms when you see someone standing there.

Whoever owns unit 2204, this is your living room and bedroom.

I think i saw Sangit just take a piss in the corner.

http://i29.tinypic.com/2ds47s5.jpg

Oh bye the way, there is a rumour floating around the marina that Marina Sky Towers has been cancelled.

Have you lot heard anything yet ?

you can zoom in and see the chappie with the yellow t-shirt and safety hat, checking out the totaly unobstructed marina view.

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/274/sanjitob3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/274/sanjitob3.a4b0951b5f.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=528&i=sanjitob3.jpg)

:wave:

Oh bye the way, there is a rumour floating around the marina that Marina Sky Towers has been cancelled.

Have you lot heard anything yet ?

It appears to be cancelled according to google search results :banana:

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/6532/googlesz6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/6532/googlesz6.d94341239b.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=234&i=googlesz6.jpg)

Demand is strong for the Torch. There are only 9 torch resales available now, down from 19 available last month. Cheapest 2 beds are 1.72m and 1.9m. Price seems to be rising fast now as progress is fast and completion is 2009 with handover in 2010 along with the best uninterrupted marina view for at least 3 years.

This pic was taken on Sunday night, after theyhad poured the floor (i think).

They were still pumping concrete up untill late into the night.

I have uploaded the high res pic so if you download it, you can zoom in and see the chappie with the yellow t-shirt and safety hat, checking out the totaly unobstructed marina view.

You can certainly get an idea of the size of the rooms when you see someone standing there.

Whoever owns unit 2204, this is your living room and bedroom.

I think i saw Sangit just take a piss in the corner.

http://i29.tinypic.com/2ds47s5.jpg

Oh bye the way, there is a rumour floating around the marina that Marina Sky Towers has been cancelled.

Have you lot heard anything yet ?

Hightimes, i briefly popped to see the Torch site yesterday - if you have a chance, have a look at the far corner of the lower floor theyve painted /started to prep. it looks like theyve started putting in some type of window frames in the far corner? difficult to see with the naked eye whether its scaffold, of window frames. what do you think?

Demand is strong for the Torch. There are only 9 torch resales available now, down from 19 available last month. Cheapest 2 beds are 1.72m and 1.9m. Price seems to be rising fast now as progress is fast and completion is 2009 with handover in 2010 along with the best uninterrupted marina view for at least 3 years.

Steve, i believe these 1.7m ones are advertised, but not for sale. i know for sure thats the case for one of them!

i'm using 1.9 / 2m as the minimim price for a 2-bed at this point in time.

Hightimes, i briefly popped to see the Torch site yesterday - if you have a chance, have a look at the far corner of the lower floor theyve painted /started to prep. it looks like theyve started putting in some type of window frames in the far corner? difficult to see with the naked eye whether its scaffold, of window frames. what do you think?

I noticed that yesterday it is the 04 apartment on the 1st or 2nd residential floor. Looks like Window frames ot me. YOu can see it clearly on one of scoots pictures from yesterday.

Leaving the rain here tonight and arriving in Dubai tomorrow morning. Can't wait!

You can see it clearly here----> (Thanks Scoot)

http://i31.tinypic.com/r271ah.jpg

I know not Torch related, but Dubai select related, anyone heard anything about their 2 new developments, West Avenue, Dubai Marina and Coast ??

I know not Torch related, but Dubai select related, anyone heard anything about their 2 new developments, West Avenue, Dubai Marina and Coast ??

I think West Avenue is somewhere in the West side of the Marina with it's back to the power station and Coast is on Palm Jebel Ali.

They are being "Pre-Launched" this weekend.

Just got this >>

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2111/2530421985_52572e66df.jpg?v=0

Steve, i believe these 1.7m ones are advertised, but not for sale. i know for sure thats the case for one of them!

i'm using 1.9 / 2m as the minimim price for a 2-bed at this point in time.

Ah that must by smshas' one at 1.7m. He forgot to remove it.

Smsmah, you need to tell bitter homes to remove it or increase your price, things have moved on since last year :banana:

I know not Torch related, but Dubai select related, anyone heard anything about their 2 new developments, West Avenue, Dubai Marina and Coast ??

Yes, and therein lies a mystery that will interest anyone fretting about losing their 'unrivalled marina views' from The Torch...

Ever since MST was mooted, I've been talking to DS, trying to get them to move my reservation to another of their developments or buy out my 'marina view' premium at current market pricing.

They're refusing, arguing that MST is nothing more than a rumour. They claim that Emaar has given no go-ahead for such a project and that it wasn't actually being marketed at Cityscape Abu Dhabi the week before last. Indeed, I had a conversation and received an email from Lois Brough along these lines only today.

And yet, just a couple of hours later, I received the same pre-launch announcement as Anjam, telling me that West Avenue will be constructed on 'Dubai Marina's last available development plot'.

Logically, I can draw only three conclusions from this claim:

1. Lois was lying to me and the old Emaar sales centre plot is not 'available', because MST has indeed been given the green light;

2. Lois was telling the truth but Select Property is lying to all of us and potential buyers about the exclusivity of West Avenue, which is not the last remaining plot;

3. West Avenue will be built in front of The Torch, on the old Emaar sales centre plot. This would be surprising, because I would have expected them to have at least hinted that they knew MST was untrue because they had some control over what would be built there instead.


So it's in the interests of Torch buyers, especially those of us with 'marina views', to get to the bottom of the truth about West Avenue.

Hi Mistermark, I got the same email as Anjam and yourself, so as this plot affects 2 of my apartments I think I'd better call them and see what responses I get, i will post my findings tomorrow.... regards.

Yes, and therein lies a mystery that will interest anyone fretting about losing their 'unrivalled marina views' from The Torch...

Ever since MST was mooted, I've been talking to DS, trying to get them to move my reservation to another of their developments or buy out my 'marina view' premium at current market pricing.

They're refusing, arguing that MST is nothing more than a rumour. They claim that Emaar has given no go-ahead for such a project and that it wasn't actually being marketed at Cityscape Abu Dhabi the week before last. Indeed, I had a conversation and received an email from Lois Brough along these lines only today.

And yet, just a couple of hours later, I received the same pre-launch announcement as Anjam, telling me that West Avenue will be constructed on 'Dubai Marina's last available development plot'.

Logically, I can draw only three conclusions from this claim:

1. Lois was lying to me and the old Emaar sales centre plot is not 'available', because MST has indeed been given the green light;

2. Lois was telling the truth but Select Property is lying to all of us and potential buyers about the exclusivity of West Avenue, which is not the last remaining plot;

3. West Avenue will be built in front of The Torch, on the old Emaar sales centre plot. This would be surprising, because I would have expected them to have at least hinted that they knew MST was untrue because they had some control over what would be built there instead.


So it's in the interests of Torch buyers, especially those of us with 'marina views', to get to the bottom of the truth about West Avenue.

I can see what you're getting at Mistermark but in defence of SP, to be fair I really don't think this is the case. You're reading to deeply into what Lois at SP is saying. I can understand why your are hanging on to every word/nuance though.

The plot in front of TT & SP has according to rumour, been given to a friend of Sheikh Mo, hence it is definitely not "available" for SP or any developer other than the owner (whoever that may be) to build on.

SP could well be correct in that they have now purchased the last plot "available" to them, or anybody else, in the Marina.

SP are probably right as well, in that MST has not been confirmed yet, in fact this was actually mentioned at Cityscape. It is odd though showing off MST as a development when no approval has been given. What is the point of this ?? Perhaps it's like the motor show where a manufacturer shows off a concept car, never likely to go into production, but just an interesting piece of design. Lets all hope this is the case with MST......bizarre I know, but it is a possibility.

I hope you're right Morrismarina, but my guess is that MST is going to happen and DS are pretending the problem will go away for as long as possible.

As we know with Dubai, anything of any consequence has the ruling family's fingers in it. So if the rumour's right that Emaar (with its own Royal connections) has given/sold the old sales centre plot to a friend of Sheikh Mo then there's little chance that the development being showcased by the plot's new owner at Cityscape won't get the green light from the Marina's master developer - er, Emaar again...

If that means a fresh-faced property developer in Cheshire and a few innocent investors, mainly from the UK and Ireland, get dumped on, well, that's life. Welcome to business, Dubai-style!

Sunday 24, the day the last floorplate was poured.
http://i27.tinypic.com/15i6tzs.jpg

By Tuesday 26 they have shuttered up all the next floor balcony walls and main interior walls, and the core rebar for next jump is done. The next floorplate supports are also coming around the building starting from the marina heights side.
http://i30.tinypic.com/2yvvxia.jpg

Wednesday 28th the floor supports continue around to the sea facing side of the building and the balcony walls have been poured and shuttering removed.
http://i30.tinypic.com/2l8jjew.jpg

Thursday 29th the floorplate support for the whole floor is complete, the core has moved up a level, and they are putting the rebar in for the next floor balcony walls.
http://i26.tinypic.com/28gzdq8.jpg

There may be some checking and clearing to do tomorrow i am sure but the floor plate is basically ready to be poured and thats basicaly 4-5 day cycle.

I believe that the building gets narrower in about 3-4 floors. This may slow them down for a floor or two but then i see no reason why 5-6 days per floor is not possible.

Unless DCE switch more workers to Bay Central to keep those wankers, i mean investors happy.

Joanne - i will try and look at the attachments for facade tonight.

Thank you for the great update HT!

So a 5 day floor cycle, great speed! Possible now to make September 2009 for completion (not handover) at that rate unless they switch workers to BC as you say.

Thank you for the great update HT!

So a 5 day floor cycle, great speed! Possible now to make September 2009 for completion (not handover) at that rate unless they switch workers to BC as you say.

Stevie baby, wot about a few of your supermen heading down to The Point in stead of BC?

No thanks. The point is not doing too badly now. :D

Anybody in London? and going along the DS show at Cumberland hotel.

Al

Anybody in London? and going along the DS show at Cumberland hotel.

Al

Is it on on sunday and if so what time?

Is it on on sunday and if so what time?

yes, Sunday as well - 10.00am till 6.00pm

glad to see the silverjet add removed promptly.

they've suspended operations, thankfully not mid-flight.:lol:

oh and lets all hope the class of the mighty blues buries skankchester united on wednesday night in moscow!:banana::master::wave::yes:
Bit slippy out there on the night someone said (JT) Ithink
Better luck next time - at least TORCH is doing well

Bit slippy out there on the night someone said (JT) Ithink
Better luck next time - at least TORCH is doing well

couldn't have worse luck next time that's for sure. :ohno: still that's football, the better team doesn't always win:cheers:

i suppose if you're a skankunian you need it more than we do. c'est la vie:cool:

couldn't have worse luck next time that's for sure. :ohno: still that's football, the better team doesn't always win:cheers:

i suppose if you're a skankunian you need it more than we do. c'est la vie:cool:

Well we've won it 3 times now - CHELSKI ? HOW MANY ?
Would agree you were the better team second half but as you say that's football !
(I know the scousers have won it 5 before someone tells me)

So perhaps we don't need it as much as you guys .

One consolation you might win it before the TORCH is finished (twice even before then !)- although eqaully we may catch LIVERPOOL by then

I,m over in DUBAI in two weeks so i'll post some new pics -hope the glass will on by then lower down.

Can't wait to see how the glass will look.

http://i29.tinypic.com/aa9c34.jpg

http://i32.tinypic.com/zldj47.jpg

http://i25.tinypic.com/28lcr5f.jpg

http://i25.tinypic.com/25oz2nq.jpg

http://i26.tinypic.com/10sarrm.jpg

http://i25.tinypic.com/2r3bbxi.jpg

http://i26.tinypic.com/aes2sm.jpg

http://i31.tinypic.com/r7oef7.jpg

glad to see the silverjet add removed promptly.

they've suspended operations, thankfully not mid-flight.:lol:

I'm sad to see Silverjet went under. In the next few weeks I'll need to fly London to Dubai to take delivery of two JLT apartments and planned flying with them. Not only were the prices keen for business/first class (I guess they were somewhere between the two - first class, early-1990s vintage) but the flight timing were such that you didn't 'lose a day'.

http://i25.tinypic.com/258mq0l.jpg

http://i30.tinypic.com/2hqq9ns.jpg

http://i31.tinypic.com/equzrl.jpg

I have loads more photos and videos day/night(Marina, Torch, Bay Central, Botanica and others) but I have no time to load. If anybody have time, please send me your email.:cheers:

The turn around in this project is remarkable. Performance upto February was utter rubbish, but now they are motoring. :applause:

Big of you TrueBlue. :cheers:

:lol: I like TrueBlue, he is my new bestest fwend in the whole wide world :hug: and the Jewels are in the best chic end of the marina :cheers: close to the new Select Property West Avenue development. :D

Thanks Mackie - great close ups of the internal work on the lower floors!

..................yes, and thanks TB; if you're impressed with what's going on here now then I reckon it must be pretty damned good!!

:lol: I like TrueBlue, he is my new bestest fwend in the whole wide world :hug: and the Jewels are in the best chic end of the marina :cheers: close to the new Select Property West Avenue development. :D

People living within the Jewels and agents are having some horrific times, I witnessed some myself with a a guy we met renting there, True Blue would have been shocked. :ohno:

Still we are not doing much better here, DS/SG are a bunch of W****ers the lying scumbags. There is nothing British about anything they do or say, watch this space, I will take them on if it is the last thing I do. Anybody who touches any more of their products deserves what's coming to them. Sooooon :bash:

I'm sad to see Silverjet went under. In the next few weeks I'll need to fly London to Dubai to take delivery of two JLT apartments and planned flying with them. Not only were the prices keen for business/first class (I guess they were somewhere between the two - first class, early-1990s vintage) but the flight timing were such that you didn't 'lose a day'.

Mark, VA were doing an upper class deal June and July for a littleover a grand. VS400 LHR about 8 30pm arrives about 7 00 am get a good bed and great lounge, give it a go.

Virgin has the best business class service from the UK to Dubai. And for every ticket sold, I get 0.5% commission. So keep the ticket sales going.

People living within the Jewels and agents are having some horrific times, I witnessed some myself with a a guy we met renting there, True Blue would have been shocked. :ohno:

Still we are not doing much better here, DS/SG are a bunch of W****ers the lying scumbags. There is nothing British about anything they do or say, watch this space, I will take them on if it is the last thing I do. Anybody who touches any more of their products deserves what's coming to them. Sooooon :bash:

You no doubt know the owner is a recent 'got rich by property speculating' Pakistani. I would think twice before considering trusting anyone with such credentials. I am glad I am not an investor but if I was unfortunate enough to be one then I would stand alongside you on this. F*****g dishonest W****ers. :ohno::ohno:

People living within the Jewels and agents are having some horrific times, I witnessed some myself with a a guy we met renting there, True Blue would have been shocked. :ohno:

Still we are not doing much better here, DS/SG are a bunch of W****ers the lying scumbags. There is nothing British about anything they do or say, watch this space, I will take them on if it is the last thing I do. Anybody who touches any more of their products deserves what's coming to them. Sooooon :bash:

Spill the beans when you are good and ready. I for my part don't regret making this investment. Am up around 80%.

You no doubt know the owner is a recent 'got rich by property speculating' Pakistani. I would think twice before considering trusting anyone with such credentials. I am glad I am not an investor but if I was unfortunate enough to be one then I would stand alongside you on this. F*****g dishonest W****ers. :ohno::ohno:

I find your comments completely out of order and inaccurate, along with unacceptable racial criticism. What's wrong with:

1. Getting rich by property speculating ??
2. Being from Pakistan ??

In fact you're completely wrong, the owner of SP did not get rich by property speculating at all, he did this via his computer/technology business.

You should retract your disgraceful comments immediately.

Here we go again........another case of SP bashing......... for no other reason than jealousy that the Torch is proving all the doubters wrong and they just don't like it as it's rising at an amazing rate now.

I'm all for criticisng SP when it's due, but such a racial attack and where the facts are wrong, is not acceptable. :bash:

Mackie can you explain to us what you've discovered which has brought on this tirade? I'm also happy enough with the way my investment is progressing but I perhaps I might not be if I knew what you know? Do share the knowledge with us - please!

Here we go again........another case of SP bashing......... for no other reason than jealousy that the Torch is proving all the doubters wrong and they just don't like it as it's rising at an amazing rate now.

Today is the 1st of June 2008 just in case you were not aware. Way after the hand over date I was sold. I agree about the other point you make but the truth lies somewhere in the middle between yours and salameer.

Sorry I can't share some of the information at present until I know the way forward, there are a few of us. :cheers:

Spill the beans when you are good and ready. I for my part don't regret making this investment. Am up around 80%.

Until the money is in the bank, you have nothing. I am sure however that you are going to be £100 down. :)

Mackie, do you care to take it off this thread? We don't need this bullshit here. Or is that too difficult for you to understand?

Mackie, do you care to take it off this thread? We don't need this bullshit here. Or is that too difficult for you to understand?

I understand you caring about your dear friends (I know who they are too) but I am not doing anything against forum rules and the moderator can sort it out id it is. You don't have to read it if it hurts you that much. You are much better at being funny but you can't defend these wankers. :cheers:

Would you like me to remind you of some of your posts here???

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

:lol: I told you, you better at being funny :)

mackie1964 and Salameer please refrain from racism and foul language on this forum :banned:

Are you serious? Me :ohno:

Read again

Mackie, on a serious note, it is bang out of order (and it is against the forum rules for your info.) to bring your personal grievances with Select Properties or any other developer to this section of the forum. As much as you'd like this to be a "communal" grievance, it's not and I don't see why the rest of the contributors here should suffer for it. Why don't you post your issues elsewhere?

You seem fairly confident that you have a winning "case". So why keep banging on about it on here parrot fashion? What's up, do you need re-assurance or something? :dunno: You can drop it now, or just get banned. It's up to you.

Mackie makes nice updates of The Torch so please don't ban him. I'm sure there are other ways to stop these discussion :)

Unless people joined the party late, those who have bought into TT or elsewhere for that matter are indeed sitting on handsome capital appreciation. :cheers:

Leave my bestest friends at DS?SG alone, They are the best :):banana:

One of the best developers in Dubai

:kiss::hug:

Honestly, I am confused why the sudden change in tune between you 2 :nuts:

I know we are all upset about the potential loss of marina view but progress here is exceptional right now.

I did not know you had the power:nuts:

You will be amazed at what I know :) Loyalty goes both ways you know :lol:

@Steve; You are of my Xmas Cards list, can't believe you accuse me of such a thing :ohno:

Trying to upload a video for the last hour, too f****g slow.

If you know something, then say it.

Honestly, I am confused why the sudden change in tune between you 2 :nuts:

I know we are all upset about the potential loss of marina view but progress here is exceptional right now.

I was teasing some one who sends me a lot of PM's about DS/SG, I even changed my signature for him/her :)

Fair enough, but why the sudden bashing, it does not make sense at all.

Maybe I enjoy a good drama. I too am interested in what Mackie has to say. Bad news or just an opinion ... lets hear it.

I don't have the power to get anyone banned from this forum, nor do I intend to gain it. I'm just bored to death with the amount of bullshit that clouds these project threads, that's all. I'm sure you can find another thread for your discussions on ways/reasons to sue developers, Mackie. That's all i'm saying.

OK, Sorry if I have offended any one....... over and out :)

Maybe I enjoy a good drama. I too am interested in what Mackie has to say. Bad news or just an opinion ... lets hear it.

I think his big news was just that today is 1st June, the original estimated completion date on the contracts, six months before compensation starts.

Mackie, on a serious note, it is bang out of order (and it is against the forum rules for your info.) to bring your personal grievances with Select Properties or any other developer to this section of the forum. As much as you'd like this to be a "communal" grievance, it's not and I don't see why the rest of the contributors here should suffer for it. Why don't you post your issues elsewhere?

You seem fairly confident that you have a winning "case". So why keep banging on about it on here parrot fashion? What's up, do you need re-assurance or something? :dunno: You can drop it now, or just get banned. It's up to you.

Talk about Pot, Kettle, and Black. Have you read your own BS about Damac?:ohno::ohno::ohno:

I find your comments completely out of order and inaccurate.....

I am fully aware of what racism is MM and I am well aware of how wealth is accumulated. As for your insinuation that I was being racist, that is total BS.

Racism is not identifying a person as being Rich nor what nationality that person is. So, I don't know what your beef is!

Here is a link to some information on the Chairman.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/160/160705_36_rahail_aslam100m_new_entry.html

As a regular contributor to non-BS, I have noted that a select few TT investors are very sensitive to anything said about the developers. Others are totally pissed off for slow progress and having been sold total lies. I am on the side of those who are not seeing things through rose-tinted glasses.
I am sure you can figure it out.
No offence intended to the DS sycophants!
:cheers:

Talk about Pot, Kettle, and Black. Have you read your own BS about Damac?:ohno::ohno::ohno:

Damac, MST thread, to name a few ...

Seems DS investors are happy to ruin threads for other people (it started with Marina Heights years ago). The same cries of 'you're just jealous' when people questioned the wisdom of investing with the then unknown Dubai Select / Select Properties. Insulting the 'arse end' of the marina, etc..

Fact is that many people have made 200-300%+ on their capital invested (by paying just 30% until completion) and received their keys, while Torch investors have been staring at a hole in the ground.

If DS investors were less dogmatic and abrasive I am sure there would be far more sympathy and support for their MST complaints. However I suspect many see it as poetic justice ...

^^ Marina Sky Towers is a nightmare for all marina residents not just Torch owners.

Naz did a great job in helping the Damac case go to the press to help the Palm Springs investors.

It was worth buying in TT just to read the drama / sitcom that goes along side, not sure about living next door to them once it's built though!!

Back to apartment pics and floor status please>>

Wait till we all have to share the hot tub ! :lol: We can make a new TV comedy drama, should be a winner, better than Gavin and Stacey :D

Talk about Pot, Kettle, and Black. Have you read your own BS about Damac?:ohno::ohno::ohno:

I'm not sure if you're too ignorant or stupid (or both) to notice, but my comments about Damac are usually posted on the dedicated thread about them on the UAE home page, not within any particular tower thread, e.g. Ocean Heights.

And yes, Damac is by far the worst developer in Dubai, because they have tried to pull off something which in Dubai is illegal, i.e. the coaxing of ivestors to accept refunds in return for the re-issuance of a project at much higher rates. As far as I know, Dubai Select/Torch Select hasn't done such a thing.

I'm not against posting opinions about developers, but there's a place for such posts.

I'm not sure if you're too ignorant or stupid (or both) to notice, but my comments about Damac are usually posted on the dedicated thread about them on the UAE home page, not within any particular tower thread, e.g. Ocean Heights.

And yes, Damac is by far the worst developer in Dubai, because they have tried to pull off something which in Dubai is illegal, i.e. the coaxing of ivestors to accept refunds in return for the re-issuance of a project at much higher rates. As far as I know, Dubai Select/Torch Select hasn't done such a thing.

I'm not against posting opinions about developers, but there's a place for such posts.
We all possess faults as described but you continue to demonstrate them more than most.
I have read plenty of your pathetic insults, so, go ahead and spit the dummy son. Or, have you done it already?
You are a law on to yourself when it comes to standards of posting.
Yes, you can be funny at times but I have noticed you have been loosing it lately. I do understand the relatively crap investment you made but, hey, you always see yourself as the wise one no doubt! :tiasd:

Yeah, cheers. You don't do such a bad job of coming off as the cretinous retard, yourself.

Today is the 1st of June 2008 just in case you were not aware. :)

Mackie, the original completion date in the contract was actually 30th June 2008. (Not that it makes much difference of course :lol: )

Yeah, cheers. You don't do such a bad job of coming off as the cretinous retard, yourself.

That is tautology but in this case it is more apt for you as it is yet more BS from the special one!
Learn the language before using it, moron!

I am fully aware of what racism is MM and I am well aware of how wealth is accumulated. As for your insinuation that I was being racist, that is total BS.

Racism is not identifying a person as being Rich nor what nationality that person is. So, I don't know what your beef is!

Here is a link to some information on the Chairman.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/160/160705_36_rahail_aslam100m_new_entry.html

As a regular contributor to non-BS, I have noted that a select few TT investors are very sensitive to anything said about the developers. Others are totally pissed off for slow progress and having been sold total lies. I am on the side of those who are not seeing things through rose-tinted glasses.
I am sure you can figure it out.
No offence intended to the DS sycophants!
:cheers:

OK I've read the article but cannot see what the hell you're trying to prove. Yes Aslam made money from computers and then property. And he's from Pakistan (according to you anyway). So fucking what ?? Donald Trump's made lots of money from property and nobody sees that as a problem. So what the fuck's the problem you have with Aslam here ?? Other than that you've probably made fuck all yourself compared to him. :lol:

Other than the delays on SP projects, which is common to about 99% of Dubai developments I have no problem with them whatsoever. I'm very pleased with SP. :cheers:

OK I've read the article... but cannot see what the hell you're trying to prove. Yes Aslam made money from computers and then property. And he's from Pakistan (according to you anyway). So fucking what ?? Donald Trump's made lots of money from property and nobody sees that as a problem. So what the fuck's the problem you have with Aslam here ?? Other than that you've probably made fuck all yourself compared to him. :lol:

Other than the delays on SP projects, which is common to about 99% of Dubai developments I have no problem with them whatsoever. And I'm very pleased with SP. :cheers:
Now take your thumb out of your backside and read my original post carefully.
I was responding to another TT investors dissatisfaction. You got on your DS high horse as usual and dived in with racism crap and telling me to know more about Rahail Aslam. That is what I redirected you to, making the point that I do already know.
It is you, Mr DS insider, who is getting touchy. So, I have no f'in problem with you.

You no doubt know the owner is a recent 'got rich by property speculating' Pakistani. I would think twice before considering trusting anyone with such credentials.

OK cockhead, I've read your post again......here's the quote above. Your words, not from anybody else.

All I'm asking is what's the problem you have with Aslam......seeing as it was in fact you that brought the subject up ??

So come on, what's the problem you have with the guy ?? Is it that he's made money from property or, that he's from Pakistan ?? Or perhaps both ?? Or more likely, you've forgotten the point you were trying to make in the first place. :lol:

Altin, please do your Zorro impersonation :)
:horse:

All I'm asking is what's the problem you have with Aslam......seeing as it was in fact you (and not anybody else) that bought the subject up ??

So come on, what's the problem you have with the guy ?? (Or have you now forgotten the point you were trying to make :lol: ).

Why? Do you need to butter him up with how clever you were in defending him against dissatisfied investors and their sympathisers? If not then drop it.
:cheers:

^^:wtf:

i'm completely lost - is this still the Torch thread???

:soapbox:

I dont know if Mackies info is anything to do with the following. I met a now ex employee of SP at the Baristi bar last week who told me that during a recent meeting at SP re MST refund issues, they were going to offer cost plus 10pc to all those view victims and stretch to it to 15 to all those who kicked up enough fuss. Its gotta be worth a lot more to all you have been in 3 or 4 years.

:lol: Current Torch premiums are 60%+ on cost prices even for no views and DS are selling like hot cakes at this premium right now for anyone who wants to sell. Why would anyone accept only 15% premium :nuts: If true, that would just be a way for DS to make money from resales from those who do not know better.

The only reasonable thing to do is credit buyers accounts with the premium paid for views (AED 188,913 for all 2 beds)

Does not sound very fair if you compare it to the 50% offered to Infinity investors who are not happy about the delay caused by the breach. That represents about 100% return on total invested over 2 years.

I dont know if Mackies info is anything to do with the following. I met a now ex employee of SP at the Baristi bar last week who told me that during a recent meeting at SP re MST refund issues, they were going to offer cost plus 10pc to all those view victims and stretch to it to 15 to all those who kicked up enough fuss. Its gotta be worth a lot more to all you have been in 3 or 4 years.

Doesn't sound very likely really. SP would more likely try to resell the unit for the investor and take a commission - which is normal procedure. They wouldn't want to deliberately wind up a bunch of people who are property savvy with a silly offer like that. These guys know how to play the game. They'll want to get out of this fix with as little mud sticking as possible.

........and they will be able to resell the units! There will be people out there willing to take a gamble that MST wont be built - at least not in it's present form.

Charlie Big Potatoes. Assuming that your rumour is right. I suppose it gives an angry customer a way of getting out quickly and banking a small profit. Not a great option considering that Torch apartments are being marketed and sold at a higher price.

Steve, I based the 80% profit on the 90% of the total amount paid so far.

Over to you Mackie whats troubling you my friend??

Does anyone on this thread know of any Torch owner who has successfully sold a marina view appt privatly or through SP since the MST announcment and made a good profit?

Have I missed something..........what's the MST "announcement" ??

.......... I doubt that anyone has tried yet! I would expect most people have adopted a wait and see attitude at least for the time being.

Have I missed something..........what's the MST "announcement" ??

Don't worry about it. It has been cancelled anyway.

Does anyone on this thread know of any Torch owner who has successfully sold a marina view appt privatly or through SP since the MST announcment and made a good profit?

Spoke to DS last week regarding resales. Apparently 10 apartments were bought by a single buyer last week or the week before. Don't know what the prices were and location within the building.

^^ There were 19 listed on betterhomes a few weeks ago (all around 1500 psf) and now only 9 listed. So that could be the 10 bought. Of those 9 remaining a few are not actually for sale or are out of date listings that bhomes have not updated.

perhaps mackie bought the extra 10 :lol:

There are currently 23 resales available on this index site of multiple agents:

http://dubaihomesearch.com/search.php?page=1&project_name=Dubai%20Marina&community_name=The%20Torch&sales_type=Buy

Cheapest 2 beds are 1.9m and 2.48m (marina / sea view). The 1.7m one is not for sale.

I am feeling positive ( and really relieved that my main investment isn't in bank shares as it is usually).

I wish Mackie would tell us why he is SOOO upset. The curiosity is getting the better of this cat!

Torch had some glass put up today :)

Photos!!!! pretty please with cherries on top :)

How reflective is the glass? Will I be arrested for indecent exposure if I accidently drop my towel when I come out of the shower and inadvertently flash an innocent office worker at marina sky towers?

How reflective is the glass? Will I be arrested for indecent exposure if I accidently drop my towel when I come out of the shower and inadvertently flash an innocent office worker at marina sky towers?

Be very very careful with that otherwise you might become known as "Ugly Naked Guy" amongst the MST workers :lol:

I'll take some pics tmw am...meanwhile plse refrain from exposing yourself :)

^^ There were 19 listed on betterhomes a few weeks ago (all around 1500 psf) and now only 9 listed. So that could be the 10 bought. Of those 9 remaining a few are not actually for sale or are out of date listings that bhomes have not updated.

perhaps mackie bought the extra 10 :lol:

There are currently 23 resales available on this index site of multiple agents:

http://dubaihomesearch.com/search.php?page=1&project_name=Dubai%20Marina&community_name=The%20Torch&sales_type=Buy

Cheapest 2 beds are 1.9m and 2.48m (marina / sea view). The 1.7m one is not for sale.

Are these Torch resale units selling at these prices. Having them listed is one thing but selling them at these prices another. If people are selling there Torch apts for these prices then this has turned out to be a great investment.