FWIW got this response regarding BC

In reference to your query regarding compensation for delay in completion, as long as you have fulfilled all your obligations under the terms of your sale and purchase agreement, the developer will make payment to you in quarterly intervals of 1% above the EIBOR rate at that time on the monies you have paid to date

So they are planning for quarterly payments after all :banana:

^^What is the EIBOR rate at present?:cheers:

^^What is the EIBOR rate at present?:cheers:

1 month = 4.28125
2 month = 4.45625
3 month = 4.47500
6 month = 4.43125
12 month = 4.31875

FWIW got this response regarding BC

In reference to your query regarding compensation for delay in completion, as long as you have fulfilled all your obligations under the terms of your sale and purchase agreement, the developer will make payment to you in quarterly intervals of 1% above the EIBOR rate at that time on the monies you have paid to date

So they are planning for quarterly payments after all :banana:

Steve - just be aware that was in relation to BC. TT should be the same...but who really knows? Can someone with an actual TT contract determine what period is defined for Completion Notification and Compensation Period. I will update my (lack of) progress chart to include this info or if you TT guys want split off the TT stuff from the BC stuff.

Further to our conversation with regards to the payment penalties, as long as you have complied with your side of the agreement, I can confirm that you will be entitled to penalty payments from 31 December 2008. Under clause 15.1 of your contract these payments are payable until the date when your property is certified completely.

The payments are calculated daily, each day that completion is late, at a rate of 1% above the London Interbank Offer Rate on any money you have paid towards the purchase price up to that point.

Should you have any additional queries, please do not hesitate to contact me via the methods below.

This was followed by a confirmation letter explaining it further :cheers: I am sure the quartly payment was mentioned then :)

The payments are calculated daily, each day that completion is late, at a rate of 1% above the London Interbank Offer Rate on any money you have paid towards the purchase price up to that point.


Its good to know that this has now been advised from SP, but clever on their part to use the £ LIBOR rate now that its dropping on a daily basis and will continue to do so with the UK bank base cuts we have had and will happen and hopeful future liquidity and confidence returning to banking, and when the contract is in Dirhams, why oh why not use EIBOR, these guys ....
:bash::bash::bash:

Pretty tasty if calculated using dirhams and converting back to sterling.

First payment should be on April fools day 1st April 09 :), 3 months after compensation starts.

^^I am sure (but am not a lawyer) that UAE (RERA) law requires compensation to be paid in EIBOR, as EIBOR was setup to remove dependency on LIBOR and be shariah compliant. Some contracts were written before widespread adoption of EIBOR, so SP were not being clever. They were only using the LIBOR as it was standard practice in contracts.

My SP contract states LIBOR too - and SP emailed me to tell me they will use EIBOR.

I'm not interested in receiving the contractual compensation. It's about 4-5% of perhaps 35-40 percent of the total price. I believe the developer is in breach of clause 9.3 of the sale and purchase agreement (which obliges them to use their reasonable endeavours to finish the project on time). If this is true, then the contract doesn't put any limitation on the damages payable, which would normally be the losses incurred by the purchaser as a result of the breach (I'd say AED 230k/yr on a two-bed).

Given that the structure will be barely half built by the end-stop contractual completion date, I think it should be pretty straightforward to demonstrate that they're in breach. Can anyone here help me by adding any specific evidence though - times when construction halted, when the promised 24/7 working didn't happen, delays caused by changes to the plans or contractors, that kind of thing? Just compiling my case...

Pretty tasty if calculated using dirhams and converting back to sterling.

It think it will be applied in dirhams to the individual property account, then I guess we can opt to use it to make up our quarterly payments, reducing the monthly input needed to make the payment. The way the pound is going, It looks like the compensation will if nothing else almost cover the extra cost to purchase the currency (if no forward contracts in place) before income is derived from rental/sales etc.. Back to construction, anyone know if there was much progress this week, cladding etc.

The 1.5mill AED and the 1.6mill AED 2 beds have gone from GNads.

Does this mean that there are buyers out there?

Really could do with more transparency on the delivery.
Reread the last update (march 2007) and it is categorical that DCE will have finished everything by sept 2009.. no perhaps or maybe..

http://i36.tinypic.com/idvi2w.jpg


http://i35.tinypic.com/2qj8u1i.jpg


http://i33.tinypic.com/u0qd4.jpg

^^ Thanks for the update!

Good progress. Looks like they are achieving a 5 day floor cycle now.

when they do the cladding on the corner's, should look great

Good work! Jo, Keep it up.A lot more glass in now, what are your own observations? What has happened to the showroom?? Must be finished by now!!

Looks like they are preparing to pour the floorplate for 41st floor now. So soon the tower will reach halfway point, although i have yet to understand exactly how the actual floor numbers for appartments relate to construction floors due to the upper and lower plaza levels and other additional floors on the lower decks

Good work! Jo, Keep it up.A lot more glass in now, what are your own observations? What has happened to the showroom?? Must be finished by now!!

the main thing i noted was the additional run of glass to the right side of the building on the second and thrid photo and of course, the sheer height of the building now. its quite impressive seeing first hand.

Looks like they are preparing to pour the floorplate for 41st floor now. So soon the tower will reach halfway point, although i have yet to understand exactly how the actual floor numbers for appartments relate to construction floors due to the upper and lower plaza levels and other additional floors on the lower decks

i've never been able to work out the floors, although i did take a moment to look at the numbering on the side as a drove past, it lists '38' as the top floor.

Appears that the bargain distress sale AED 1.5m 2 bed in the Torch sold OK in only a few days.

One of most undervalued development currently not just in the marina but across Dubai. Agree ?

^^

If not the planet arfie.

Yes i quite agree. :)

Appears that the bargain distress sale AED 1.5m 2 bed in the Torch sold OK in only a few days.

What does that work out to psf ?

Today

http://i37.tinypic.com/30k7mms.jpg

One of most undervalued development currently not just in the marina but across Dubai. Agree ?

Agreed - but this is probably because it's probably still two years from delivery, so no income for some while and no use to owner occupiers either.

Appears that the bargain distress sale AED 1.5m 2 bed in the Torch sold OK in only a few days.


And what my friends did it -actually- sell for? possibly AED 1m. Despite all my previous posting there seems to be an element on this forum who would have people believe the properties are worth far more than they are actually worth. We put our flat on the market a few weeks ago and believ me the silence is deafening....!

^^ It sold for 1.5m in 2 days.

What price are you advertising ?

^^ It sold for 1.5m in 2 days.

What price are you advertising ?

well ok, to be fair, a lot more.

And what my friends did it -actually- sell for? possibly AED 1m. Despite all my previous posting there seems to be an element on this forum who would have people believe the properties are worth far more than they are actually worth. We put our flat on the market a few weeks ago and believ me the silence is deafening....!


i'm sorry, but this isnt a credible post:ohno:

Sorry, if this has been asked/answered before. Is there an observation deck or gallery for residents on the Torch? If so , what floor is it on?

i'm sorry, but this isnt a credible post:ohno:

Better Homes:

Thank you for your enquiry.



Below is the latest sale in The Torch. The unit is under offer so does represent a realistic comparison for you. We would need to allow for the fact that this unit is on the 36th floor but assuming the size / views are similar then I would recommend an asking price of AED 1,200,000. Our fee is 3% and is added to the sales price making the marketing price AED 1,236,000.

Better Homes:

Thank you for your enquiry.



Below is the latest sale in The Torch. The unit is under offer so does represent a realistic comparison for you. We would need to allow for the fact that this unit is on the 36th floor but assuming the size / views are similar then I would recommend an asking price of AED 1,200,000. Our fee is 3% and is added to the sales price making the marketing price AED 1,236,000.

p.s. and that was 4 weeks ago!

Better Homes:

Thank you for your enquiry.

Below is the latest sale in The Torch. The unit is under offer so does represent a realistic comparison for you. We would need to allow for the fact that this unit is on the 36th floor but assuming the size / views are similar then I would recommend an asking price of AED 1,200,000. Our fee is 3% and is added to the sales price making the marketing price AED 1,236,000.

1,236,000 for a 2 bed on the 36th floor isn't that the original price :bash:

^^For a one bedded room?

I sold a one bedded room a few weeks ago for just over 1.5M:cheers:

^^For a one bedded room?

I sold a one bedded room a few weeks ago for just over 1.5M:cheers:

yes, it is friday! :cheers:

1,236,000 for a 2 bed on the 36th floor isn't that the original price :bash:

Betterhomes agents do not care about the customer they only want to make their extortionate 3% comission and get a sale to keep their job. As we know the 2 bed sold for .3m more than that in only 2 days on the market. It could have been sold for 1.7m or more if on the payment plan.

Betterhomes agents do not care about the customer they only want to make their extortionate 3% comission and get a sale to keep their job. As we know the 2 bed sold for .3m more than that in only 2 days on the market. It could have been sold for 1.7m or more if on the payment plan.

yes 3% is nonsense, however with our new agent at 1%....and a much higher price...the silence is deafening....

So far BH is the only estate agent to show us a real sale, however, 1.2m.
Everything else on this forum I take with a pinch of sale

^^ Too bad you are selling and won't be going to the Torch grand opening party in Dec 2010. I have some celebrity guests planned for the pool party. :banana:

^^ Too bad you are selling and won't be going to the Torch grand opening party in Dec 2010. I have some celebrity guests planned for the pool party. :banana:

talking about celebrity parties, Atlantis had its opening party this evening. fireworks finished just over 90 mins ago. the most spectacular thing i've ever seen. 10 time bigger the the fireworks display at the Beijing Olympics and visable from space...fireworks across the entire span of the palm - Dubai at its best!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWTgSh5RfXY

yes 3% is nonsense, however with our new agent at 1%....and a much higher price...the silence is deafening....

So far BH is the only estate agent to show us a real sale, however, 1.2m.
Everything else on this forum I take with a pinch of sale

Send me a copy of the front page of your contract. If you are genuine, I will forward a copy of a couple of sales contract from only few weeks back :cheers:

It can be done, even in the current climate and despite our useless developer :)

^^ Too bad you are selling and won't be going to the Torch grand opening party in Dec 2010. I have some celebrity guests planned for the pool party. :banana:


Steve, We shall all T.R.I.P..(Torch Residents Investors party).. TRIP maybe in the real sense :booze:

^^ Too bad you are selling and won't be going to the Torch grand opening party in Dec 2010. I have some celebrity guests planned for the pool party. :banana:

could you book Kristina for me? I want to drag her across the floor.

talking about celebrity parties, Atlantis had its opening party this evening. fireworks finished just over 90 mins ago. the most spectacular thing i've ever seen. 10 time bigger the the fireworks display at the Beijing Olympics and visable from space...fireworks across the entire span of the palm - Dubai at its best!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWTgSh5RfXY

after seeing that.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not interested in receiving the contractual compensation. It's about 4-5% of perhaps 35-40 percent of the total price. I believe the developer is in breach of clause 9.3 of the sale and purchase agreement (which obliges them to use their reasonable endeavours to finish the project on time). If this is true, then the contract doesn't put any limitation on the damages payable, which would normally be the losses incurred by the purchaser as a result of the breach (I'd say AED 230k/yr on a two-bed).

Given that the structure will be barely half built by the end-stop contractual completion date, I think it should be pretty straightforward to demonstrate that they're in breach. Can anyone here help me by adding any specific evidence though - times when construction halted, when the promised 24/7 working didn't happen, delays caused by changes to the plans or contractors, that kind of thing? Just compiling my case...

A favour please Mark! Can you please send me the contacts for your legal guys.
I will, when I get some time, get you some dates together :cheers:

http://i38.tinypic.com/2144029.jpg

^^^ So has NAZ left the building now?

yes, prices should increase now :lol:

:runaway:

They certainly did! I got 5.43 to the pound! :lol: all the way to the wank, i mean bank.

:lol: just testing to see if you are still listening :cheers:

Of course i'm still listening! I haven't gone deaf. Just pulled all my money outta Dubai. :)

intently, I might add:lol:

Joanidis or anyone else.

What's the construction activity like? How busy is the site?

Also there are now no 2 bedders on GNads. very strange. Taken off market, sold or agents gone bust?

^^ No but there is a 1 bed listed for 2.6m :lol:

Joanidis or anyone else.

What's the construction activity like? How busy is the site?

Also there are now no 2 bedders on GNads. very strange. Taken off market, sold or agents gone bust?


Taken yesterday morning
http://i37.tinypic.com/24pbejs.jpg


http://i37.tinypic.com/msisg5.jpg

^^ Sorry Joannides, thanks for the pickie but I was after info, like workers on site and how busy does it look?

Thanks

Thanks for the photos.

By the way the top floor is currently floor 38 which should be apt # T-320X

^^

Can you please explain this to me Steve.

Thanks.

^^ Sorry Joannides, thanks for the pickie but I was after info, like workers on site and how busy does it look?

Thanks

i was down there maybe 2 time last week. there is continous activity at the site. not like the number of workers i saw last month, although with so many workers no doubt inside the building, its difficult to get a real sense without seeing the shift changes.

i'm still waiting for confirmation that i can see the show apartment. i'm sure when this happens, things will be a little more revealing.

Thanks again.

I am expecting to see pictures of the show apartment in the next update. Get those blood pressure pills ready guys n gals.

Plenty of lights on at night - interior works

http://i34.tinypic.com/2hrhonm.jpg

Floors are counted starting at 1 from the first residential floor above the podium. Count them (residential floors only), you will get to 32 when you reach the floor marked 38. This fits in with SPs information that you will be 6 floors higher then your apartment #. eg. 32 + 6 = 38 because of the extra 6 floors of 1 beds inserted at the base.

2 bed 36th floor listed for 1.5 mil aed on gnads4u.com

SP have many 2 beds listed starting from 1.7 varying 1.9 mil aed. Any one with LPP can demand larger premium I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxy
Joanidis or anyone else.

What's the construction activity like? How busy is the site?

Also there are now no 2 bedders on GNads. very strange. Taken off market, sold or agents gone bust?




We had a 2 bed on gnads4u for the last few weeks, haven't heard anything, silence is deafening, and now it has apparently been taken off? !!!! Dubai full of trickery perhaps

Floors are counted starting at 1 from the first residential floor above the podium. Count them (residential floors only), you will get to 32 when you reach the floor marked 38. This fits in with SPs information that you will be 6 floors higher then your apartment #. eg. 32 + 6 = 38 because of the extra 6 floors of 1 beds inserted at the base.

Sorry for being thick but does this mean that ?

Torch is 84 floors.

Penthouses are duplex so 2 floors.

Highest residential floor of 3 beds is 73.

So 73 (highest 3 bed floor) + Penthouse (2 floors) = 75.

There are 5 podium floors + upper and lower plaza level (that's 7 floors).

You say that an additional 6 floors have been slotted in at the bottom too.

Where does the 84 come from ?

If all the above info is correct than the final floor count will be:

5 Podium floors = 5
1 lower plaza level = 6
1 upper plaza level = 7
6 fractional ownership levels = 13
73 residential levels = 86
2 penthouse levels = 88

I'm lost, i have actually confused myself now......

http://i37.tinypic.com/352llag.jpg

I think the actual configuration is...oh what am i doing, i sold my apartment and bought 5 back-backs up north at 35% below market value with a nice tidy rental profit and hefty property appreciation ready to revalue and release equity within the next 2-6 months... so yea, erm, I don't know about any of this stuff anymore. :shifty: (May have enough equity release to cash-purchase a nice sea-facing 2-bedder.... any takers? :sly:)

I already have a few BMVs up north. Nothing but trouble, want to sell them but no one is buying anything there. Equity release is not possible either as banks are down valuing 20%.

I think the actual configuration is...oh what am i doing, i sold my apartment and bought 5 back-backs up north at 35% below market value with a nice tidy rental profit and hefty property appreciation ready to revalue and release equity within the next 2-6 months... so yea, erm, I don't know about any of this stuff anymore. :shifty: (May have enough equity release to cash-purchase a nice sea-facing 2-bedder.... any takers? :sly:)

Where you bye Bratfort? You got nothing. SSC better with out you write here.

I think the actual configuration is...oh what am i doing, i sold my apartment and bought 5 back-backs up north at 35% below market value with a nice tidy rental profit and hefty property appreciation ready to revalue and release equity within the next 2-6 months... so yea, erm, I don't know about any of this stuff anymore. :shifty: (May have enough equity release to cash-purchase a nice sea-facing 2-bedder.... any takers? :sly:)

If thats true, (which i really doubt, but i suppose it makes you sound clever). In relation to your purchases then you are premature, the UK market has a way to go yet.

Making statements like " i bought at 35% below market value" just proves how ignorant you are. By paying £x for an asset you determine it's market value as £x.

BMV - an oxymoron if ever it needed to be pointed out - should have a bought a BMW instead - would have given you more pleasure!!!

BMV - an oxymoron if ever it needed to be pointed out - should have a bought a BMW instead - would have given you more pleasure!!!

:lol:

If thats true, (which i really doubt, but i suppose it makes you sound clever). In relation to your purchases then you are premature, the UK market has a way to go yet.

Making statements like " i bought at 35% below market value" just proves how ignorant you are. By paying £x for an asset you determine it's market value as £x.

I must say, I'm very sceptical about people who say they can buy UK property 'below market value'. Why would someone sell you a house for less than it's worth? In the main, the BMV myth was peddled by companies such as Inside Track that scammed people into signing up for massively overpriced off-plan urban new-builds that are now worth barely more than half what they paid for them.

A BMV is found by comparing similar properties in the same road or area and trying your luck by offering 30% or so below the advertised price. Usually the seller will be a distressed seller and sometimes will rent back the property from you if you offer to buy immediately with cash.

That 2 bed for 1.5m in the Torch could be considered a BMV as it is below the advertised prices of all others even below that of a similar 1 bed.

Market values are calculated from real transaction prices, not advertised prices. Everyone knows that asking prices in Dubai are always inflated and rarely achieved (especially now).

A BMV is found by comparing similar properties in the same road or area and trying your luck by offering 30% or so below the advertised price. Usually the seller will be a distressed seller and sometimes will rent back the property from you if you offer to buy immediately with cash.

That 2 bed for 1.5m in the Torch could be considered a BMV as it is below the advertised prices of all others even below that of a similar 1 bed.

Isn't that just good negotiation skills?

Not exactly, only distressed selllers will sell below the valuation price.

A BMV is found by comparing similar properties in the same road or area and trying your luck by offering 30% or so below the advertised price. Usually the seller will be a distressed seller and sometimes will rent back the property from you if you offer to buy immediately with cash.

That 2 bed for 1.5m in the Torch could be considered a BMV as it is below the advertised prices of all others even below that of a similar 1 bed.

I know where you're coming from, but in the UK right now, I think the 30% below advertised price is probably the market value, and the advertised price is wishful thinking from a private seller. The disparity between prices achieved at auction and those asked by private sellers in unforced situations has never been greater.

Where you bye Bratfort? You got nothing. SSC better with out you write here.
Sorry, I don't speak Klingon.

If thats true, (which i really doubt, but i suppose it makes you sound clever). In relation to your purchases then you are premature, the UK market has a way to go yet.

Making statements like " i bought at 35% below market value" just proves how ignorant you are. By paying £x for an asset you determine it's market value as £x.
No worries, you're the clever one, I'm stupid. Someone's already answered your query with the definition of BMV, so I won't embarass you further here.

BMV - an oxymoron if ever it needed to be pointed out - should have a bought a BMW instead - would have given you more pleasure!!!
I don't deal drugs, so why on earth would I want to buy a BMW?

Jeez! Clearly, my comment pissed a few of you off! I knew there was a serious crisis in Dubai property market, but didn't realise it was that bad! Ta ta!

"make yourself sound clever, ignorant" just calm down HT,
Just looked at BC thread & my god are we lucky

Sorry, I don't speak Klingon.


No worries, you're the clever one, I'm stupid. Someone's already answered your query with the definition of BMV, so I won't embarass you further here.


I don't deal drugs, so why on earth would I want to buy a BMW?

Jeez! Clearly, my comment pissed a few of you off! I knew there was a serious crisis in Dubai property market, but didn't realise it was that bad! Ta ta!
Chill everybody please he's just winding you up LOL
--although Naz I don't blame you for getting out of DUBAI i,m not going to get out at all - UK is F****D at least with this goverment the prats !! the 2.5 vat reduction tells me that (it will be 20% by jan 2010 mark my words

http://i34.tinypic.com/1z3tf1x.jpg

^^ Another floor added since last photo update here.

I cant decide if this is a picture or painting have you got clouds over then
apart from the financial ones everyone is panicking over ??

Steve is that fire on the lower floors of the Torch ? :):bash::)

I think the actual configuration is...oh what am i doing, i sold my apartment and bought 5 back-backs up north at 35% below market value with a nice tidy rental profit and hefty property appreciation ready to revalue and release equity within the next 2-6 months... so yea, erm, I don't know about any of this stuff anymore. :shifty: (May have enough equity release to cash-purchase a nice sea-facing 2-bedder.... any takers? :sly:)

You did well to get out of DM and especially, TT, with a profit. Nice to read that you are back home and enjoying yourself. Things are little tight every where but let us know how you are getting on. :cheers:

full page adverts of Gulfnews from the developer, The Torch, The Point, Bay Central, 1400-1500 dhs/sqft, completion date is still rubbish, Dec 2009 for the Torch, March 2009 for the Point:) dont remember the Bay Central.

full page adverts of Gulfnews from the developer, The Torch, The Point, Bay Central, 1400-1500 dhs/sqft, completion date is still rubbish, Dec 2009 for the Torch, March 2009 for the Point:) dont remember the Bay Central.


Imre, where abouts is it? I can't seem to find it.

also, while we all know that even December 2009 is impossible, its very dissapointing that SP chose to state a revised timeframe as part of an ad in Gulfnews to would-be buyers before having the courtesy to inform current investors.

1500psf for a 2 bed is 1.9m I would be happy with that at the moment if I was selling.

1500psf for a 2 bed is 1.9m I would be happy with that at the moment if I was selling.

Me too!

Most of the units in that ad are resales from SP that they have been bying back from distressed sellers over the recent weeks.

Buying at 1100/1200 psf Selling for 1400/1500 psf.

I think that the company will turn towards resales and away from off plan sales over the next year or so. Eventualy their intention is to enter the rental and management market in a big way.

I like the fact that the company seems to be forward thinking and is often the first to move before the herd, for example escrow, Law No 13, flexible payment plans etc.

One of my golden rules in business and life which has never let me down is;

"Never follow the crowds, as the real winners in life are always in the minority"

GNads watch. The 1.58 mill AED apartment no longer there.

Most of the units in that ad are resales from SP that they have been bying back from distressed sellers over the recent weeks.

Buying at 1100/1200 psf Selling for 1400/1500 psf.

I think that the company will turn towards resales and away from off plan sales over the next year or so. Eventualy their intention is to enter the rental and management market in a big way.

I like the fact that the company seems to be forward thinking and is often the first to move before the herd, for example escrow, Law No 13, flexible payment plans etc.

One of my golden rules in business and life which has never let me down is;

"Never follow the crowds, as the real winners in life are always in the minority"

I don't know if to laugh or cry. As I know that you know better, I will :cry: :cry: Its a sales and marketing lead firm just like arranging flowers or polishing a classic old Car, no real deliverables and only disappointment beyond the shiny, smelly front.

You have only joined the Gold rush recently :)

@Foxy; it means nothing, they disappear after 3/4 days anyway, I think. :cheers:

Soon, they will get what they deserve........ Only a matter of when :)

full page adverts of Gulfnews from the developer, The Torch, The Point, Bay Central, 1400-1500 dhs/sqft, completion date is still rubbish, Dec 2009 for the Torch, March 2009 for the Point:) dont remember the Bay Central.

You are back and not taking any photos :bash::bash:
Not a great start for the forumer of the year campaign :cheers::banana:

Nice reading through this blog while I was away but I don’t like him listing the Torch as one of the dangerous Investments : http://www.homethoughtsfromdubai.com/

I don't know if to laugh or cry. As I know that you know better, I will :cry: :cry: Its a sales and marketing lead firm just like arranging flowers or polishing a classic old Car, no real deliverables and only disappointment beyond the shiny, smelly front.

You have only joined the Gold rush recently :)

Soon, they will get what they deserve........ Only a matter of when :)

I have read, and re-read your post mate, but i cant see what your pointing at.

Have you been sat in a coffee shop in the Dam with bizzybonita or what ?

Cheer up anyway, the Abu Dhabi boys will be turning you over tomorrow. :lol:

Hi guys,

I have been an investor in the Torch since sept 2005 and from the outset i have been reading all the notes on forum since it started,so i thought i might as well join in now and have a good moan..:bash:

Hi guys,

I have been an investor in the Torch since sept 2005 and from the outset i have been reading all the notes on forum since it started,so i thought i might as well join in now and have a good moan..:bash:

Wellcome aboard MOAF. :banana:

Imre, where abouts is it? I can't seem to find it.

also, while we all know that even December 2009 is impossible, its very dissapointing that SP chose to state a revised timeframe as part of an ad in Gulfnews to would-be buyers before having the courtesy to inform current investors.

Gulfnews, will scann it if I see again.

You are back and not taking any photos :bash::bash:
Not a great start for the forumer of the year campaign :cheers::banana:

Nice reading through this blog while I was away but I don’t like him listing the Torch as one of the dangerous Investments : http://www.homethoughtsfromdubai.com/

took just around 1500 pics since I am back in Dubai:)

After 9 months I have an internet at home again, so Dubai Marina update coming soon:)

Thanks Foxy its great to be aboard matey

Just to let you know folks, I went to dubai last month and i wanted to see the Torch development and I contacted select property in wilmslow, who inturn organised someone from select group head office in dubai to pick me and my wife up from hilton jumeriah hotel.The select rep managed to speak to the site manager to gain permission to enter the construction site and agreed to show us the 7th floor 1 bed apartment sea facing, By luck it happened to be the apartment which I purchased...what luck

I could see the part of the truck of the palm jumeriah island on my right and on the left I could see yact/marine club and in the centre it was princess tower,i have to say, quite pleased with the views from the apartment.:hahaha::banana:

Welcome MOAF. What was the interior of the apartment like? Any photos?

Hi dubai steve,

Well the kitchen and the bathroom was fully tiled from top to bottom and the floor tiling was also complete in the apartment with plastic sheet covering the floors.

The kichen and the bathroom had no interior fitted yet i was advised this would be fitted in november 2008

I couldn't take any pictures because permission was refused by select..

But looking good guys it will be worth the wait, just hold on tight and ride out the credit crunch...

You are back and not taking any photos :bash::bash:
Not a great start for the forumer of the year campaign :cheers::banana:

Nice reading through this blog while I was away but I don’t like him listing the Torch as one of the dangerous Investments : http://www.homethoughtsfromdubai.com/



:hm: :ohno: :doh:

Thanks Foxy its great to be aboard matey

Just to let you know folks, I went to dubai last month and i wanted to see the Torch development and I contacted select property in wilmslow, who inturn organised someone from select group head office in dubai to pick me and my wife up from hilton jumeriah hotel.The select rep managed to speak to the site manager to gain permission to enter the construction site and agreed to show us the 7th floor 1 bed apartment sea facing, By luck it happened to be the apartment which I purchased...what luck

I could see the part of the truck of the palm jumeriah island on my right and on the left I could see yact/marine club and in the centre it was princess tower,i have to say, quite pleased with the views from the apartment.:hahaha::banana:


Moaf did you quiz them on delivery dates?

I couldn't take any pictures because permission was refused by select

Welcome MOAF,

Refused permission to take pics of your own property ? :ohno:

If you didnt then you were very restrained. I would not of been able to stop myself taking pics of my actual unit, nor would an SP rep for that matter.

Imre is back in Dubai and has an internet connection at home now so hopefully some updates will be here shortly, besides joannides has been doing a fantastic job with the pics recently. :cheers:

I wonder what the official December SP update will bring.

I wonder what the official December SP update will bring.

Me too. In particular, I wonder when they will finally admit that September 2009 is a fantasy completion date and do the decent thing and offer us a new construction schedule with a realistic handover date, together with details of how they plan to compensate us.

Thanks guys for welcoming me I feel part of the family already.

I really pressed the select rep on completion dates but he stuck to his guns and said sept 09,These guys have had the best of breed sales training believe you me.The select guys will answer a question with a question,but to be fair to the guys they deliver a fantastic customer service.

In relation to taking photos in my torch apartment he mentioned that the photos are not going to justice because the apartment was in the construction phase,but he said the show apartment will be ready by end of december 2008... which they will post photos on the select property website

Thanks guys for welcoming me I feel part of the family already.

I really pressed the select rep on completion dates but he stuck to his guns and said sept 09,These guys have had the best of breed sales training believe you me.The select guys will answer a question with a question,but to be fair to the guys they deliver a fantastic customer service.

In relation to taking photos in my torch apartment he mentioned that the photos are not going to justice because the apartment was in the construction phase,but he said the show apartment will be ready by end of december 2008... which they will post photos on the select property website

Was the living room and bedrooms tiled out when you saw the apt ? In general what was the quality like ?

Arfie, The living room and the bedroom floors were fully tiled,quality was good, except for few floor tiles that were not cut correctly and poorly joined this was ,between the bathroom and the hallway where it joins ,and i suspect this will be on my snagging list for the things to do,when i officially sign off the apartment..but overall not bad quality guys.

01/December/2008

The Torch

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/4977/imresolt095ml7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/2980/imresolt123ob5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/9606/imresolt124yy2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/9606/imresolt124yy2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

This time last year:

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4264/74725905yp9.jpg

Good progress for 1 year

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/2980/imresolt123ob5.jpg

...

Thats 5 floors in november. Cheerie news indeed.

That's the Pinnacle behind the Torch?!?

Glad to see you IMRE although Joannnides has been holding fort admirably
TT is rising quickly now and wil soon be in front of Pinnacle
I'M so glad i am invested foR the long run in TT and not Pinnacle -

:cheers:Folks it looks like floors are going up pretty quick,:cheers:

That's the Pinnacle behind the Torch?!?

:lol: for a minute I was very confused :nuts:

Imre thanks for the snaps and yes thank you Joannnides for regular updates,fantastic team work guys

when the torch party guys

Glad to see you IMRE although Joannnides has been holding fort admirably
TT is rising quickly now and wil soon be in front of Pinnacle
I'M so glad i am invested foR the long run in TT and not Pinnacle -

How many different ways can we spell Joannedis?? :lol:

any ideas on how many floors the torch is currently standing on

when the torch party guys

T.R.I.P (torch residents and investors party) pencilled in for 1st April 2010.

That's the Pinnacle behind the Torch?!?

yes, Pinnacle very slow, one of the slowest at the Marina.

Tosh that sounds good to me buddy

T.R.I.P (torch residents and investors party) pencilled in for 1st April 2010.

Mackie will donate £200 to the drinks fund :lol:

Mackie will donate £200 to the drinks fund :lol:

that will be post credit crunch, so we need an improvement on this figure.
For those who wish to contribute with ale in various brands,colours and personal tastes, the swimming pool will be left empty until all liquid donations have been recd. :cheers:

Payment penalties will be calculated on completion and deducted from the final instalment.

as of today, September 2009 is still being touted as the 'completion date':ohno:

and for the LPP where there is no final instalment?

and for the LPP where there is no final instalment?

don't know i'm afraid. was only told what related to my plan.

http://i33.tinypic.com/zwyg6d.jpg

Many Thanks Imre :cheers:

My money is safe here:lol:

Arfie, The living room and the bedroom floors were fully tiled,quality was good, except for few floor tiles that were not cut correctly and poorly joined this was ,between the bathroom and the hallway where it joins ,and i suspect this will be on my snagging list for the things to do,when i officially sign off the apartment..but overall not bad quality guys.

Adam Price^^

good progress of cladding as well.

02/December/2008

The Torch

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/8412/imresolt026pc9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5206/imresolt116hy0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/1566/imresolt117kk4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/3325/imresolt027vl2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/7596/imresolt118zr3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Awesome shots as usual Imre, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Imre, your a Top dog

Hi

I have watched and taken in the comments on this forum regarding the Torch - my reaction being of mixed humour and questioning. I myself invested in this development back in 2005 and anticipated a delay in completion beyond that stated.

Over the past few weeks I have seen the likes of High Times et.al denounce those who sell what is apparently below market price - but alot of times people forget that the value of something is only what people are prepared to pay for it.

I had an exit strategy and the reasons for that exit have been reached namely:

1. The market in Dubai is slowing down as expected - the economy is global and money flows in from all countries, and when these countries hit problems so do the people who live there. This therefore does not make Dubai immune to the tides of misfortune elsewhere.
2. The percentage gain I wanted was achieved - remember sometimes being too greedy can leave you with less than if you were not, both financially and emotionally.
3. The laws surrounding property sales is changing and the processes leads to even longer delays in transactions - just look at law13 as an example, thus what would have taken a few weeks can now take considerably longer, and as my Dad use to say "..time is money..."
4. Personally the gbp/usd volatility is the best I have seen in decades - when most people bought they did so when the usd was weak so are already in positive returns just by doing nothing. Now that same ccy is strenthening and all the other world currencies will go through a period of depreciation to reach a hapy equilibrium - the art is knowing when the bottom of that volatility is. Who can second guess the dollar when the one thing that everybody needs (ie black gold) is so intrinsically linked to the greenback. This is enough for me to know that I can't ride the ccy tide forever.
5. For me personally I just don't know how strong the developer is in surviving in this market - with several projects I can't begin to imagine what leverage and finance structuring they have in place. If old solid banks can fail - and the likes of the US motor industry are begging for help - what hope is there for the property developer? A company can only survive for so long on just fantastic marketing. SP is, in my experience, one of the better developers in the area , they are brilliant in giving you as much information as they can and are obliged to do. What they "choose" not to tell you is for their benefit - why else would they be in business? My worry is that world events may force their hand, I sincerely hope not but I for one do not want to be embroiled in that if it happens.
6. Its not panic selling as some are lead to believe, some do so out of no choice and some do so because events give them enough to implement their strategy.

I hope the rewards for this development continue to rise and benefit those that are still within it, be it as an investor, resident or developer - but for me the time was right to exit and I tend to be in the same boat as others like Naz in this respect.

The Dubai and esp. The Torch dream is not dead its just that some of us want to, and choose to, wake up.


disclaimer its not me.

here is the point of view of the seller.

assumption: seller is UK based.

bought off plan late 2005 for 1mill AED.
Paid to date .9mill AED so approx £130k.

Return 1.4mill AED £256k.

Thats a small brain for you!!

The correct observation is. Can he sell at this price right now?

^^

I would add that having cash in hand leaves you in a good position for the next investment.

But on the other hand ....

1. every day is a day nearing completion and completed properties mean
2. rent potential of say 150K+ AED (for a 2 bed) and increased capital values.

So I think it really is a toss up.

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/3607/imresolt332cc7.jpg

Here we can see that the metro station is not vary far from marina heights and the torch
and the tram stop will be very close to the Torch.

^^

I would add that having cash in hand leaves you in a good position for the next investment.

But on the other hand ....

1. every day is a day nearing completion and completed properties mean
2. rent potential of say 150K+ AED (for a 2 bed) and increased capital values.

So I think it really is a toss up.

Also, the escrow law should add more assurance to those investors who choose to sit tight.

A lifetimes rental income here is also quite interesting with a paid up asset for your old age or children. I have no intention to sell for a very long time.

Steve,prices will also shoot up around mid 2010 soon after this "blip"

I agree with Dubai steve, great lifetime investment for you & the children indeed....

03/December/2008

The Torch

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/647/imresolt40pa6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/466/imresolt42uu4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/842/imresolt43kz8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

OK OK, you got my Vote :)

I love you more than Jo now :lol::cheers:

Here we can see that the metro station is not vary far from marina heights and the torch and the tram stop will be very close to the Torch.

How far by foot? under 10mis or 15mins?

You can see on Imre's picture that they have started to split the balcony's in half lenghtways on these units.

Hi All

Thought this would be useful to people - 1 month on (ish) between 5th Nov and 2nd Dec:

http://www.thetorchdubai.co.uk/images/torch-top-5-11-08.jpg http://www.thetorchdubai.co.uk/images/torch-top-2-12-08.jpg


Enjoy :)

The Torch

4-5-floors in the last month.....

I'll be quite happy if they keep this speed up.

If they do 1 floor a week it will be another 44 weeks till it's topped out (I think they can change the completion date now as we're not stupid)

^^
Another 40 odd floors to go equating to approximately 10-12 months to top out i.e Dec 2009. Summer working hours and the festive holidays could add a further 2-3 months to this.

Internal fittings etc easily another year. Guesstimate completion/handover between Dec 2010 and Summer 2011.

4-5-floors in the last month.....

Yes, I reckon 5 pillars up, 4 base floors up in 27 days. By the time it is 30-31 days, it should be 5 full floors up, possibly 6 pillars up, 5 floor bases up.

^^
Another 40 odd floors to go equating to approximately 10-12 months to top out i.e Dec 2009. Summer working hours and the festive holidays could add a further 2-3 months to this.

Internal fittings etc easily another year. Guesstimate completion/handover between Dec 2010 and Summer 2011.

If they can continue this speed on average (they should be able to increase efficiency, but slow down during summer), I calculate they can top out in 8 months time, based on 5.5 floors per month, 43 to go.

I also think the internal fittings will be more parallelized than what you are suggesting, given what we are observing so far.

SP are now not planning to pay LPP compensation payments until handover. Therefore you need to budget at least AED 5 = £1 for another 10 quarters before you can expect any rent. :bash: Around £50,000 for a typical 2 bed. I think they will now have to be forced to implement the emergency rescue plan of delaying payments from buyers in order to prevent a very large number of repossessions which they will not be able to sell on.

I think everyone should join together and demand that compensation is paid quarterly for the good of SP and their customers or at least refuse to pay the equivalent amount.

Mackie, I sent you a PM a day or two ago but it was held up because your inbox was full. Please can you clear it out and let me know whether you get my message?

Everyone else, Mackie too for that matter: at a floor per week, but slowing in the summer, but with the additional burden of having to build a giant Torch-like feature on the roof, I can't see them topping out much before the end of 2009.

SP say they'll be doing internal fit-out as they build, but surely the lifts, services, landscaping of the site etc and DEWA connection won't happen until top-out? On a building of this size I can't see this taking much less than another year - end 2010.

They've also been muttering about the handover process itself taking several months, due to the number of units. So I think there's a risk that we could be looking at Spring 2011 to take possession. That's almost THREE YEARS after the anticipated completion date in the contracts!!!!!

SP are now not planning to pay LPP compensation payments until handover. Therefore you need to budget at least AED 5 = £1 for another 10 quarters before you can expect any rent. :bash: I think they will now have to be forced to implement the emergency rescue plan of delaying payments from buyers in order to prevent a very large number of repossessions which they will not be able to sell on.

I agree about the need to budget for the LPP instalments to continue for some time without rental income.

If the developer is solvent enough and wishes to avoid repossessions, it could offer to suspend the LPP instalments from 31/12/08 until completion. However, the company may not have the working capital required to do this and, even if it has, it may choose not to make such an offer.

Being blunt about it, a few isolated repossessions may work to their favour (I can't recall what the contract says but I think they may keep some or all of the money paid to date if they have to take back a property), whereas suspending the LPP would have a dramatic effect on their cashflow.

If we believe they're good for the money, we could always impose a suspension of the LPP on the developer by collectively refusing to make further payments until our apartments are handed over.

They might try to terminate our agreements, but if we collectively went through RERA and the court system, pointing to clause 9.3 (the section of the contract obliging them to use reasonable endeavours to deliver the project on time) it's unlikely they'd succeed. Another risk to this strategy is that they may not have the funds to complete the building without our instalments, in which case our withholding of payments could result in the project being delayed even more or the company failing and the tower being left unfinished.

An alternative course of action might be to continue making the LPP instalments but take them to court for the lost rental income, on the grounds of their breach of clause 9.3.

A middle way might be to announce a collective intent to do one or both of these things then request a meeting with them to negotiate a solution from a position of strength.

Thoughts?

I agree maximum group action has to be taken against SP now with involvement from RERA and clause 9.3

@Mark; Did not get your message, use the email, I will get it immediately by email via the BB. (you have my email). :cheers:

I agree maximum group action has to be taken against SP now with involvement from RERA and clause 9.3

Whats the best way to get this started, first step i guess a list of names of investors and unit number/s whom what to create a group ?

Mark, don't forget that buyers are now legally entitled to be refunded all monies paid so far, which would be very profitable for buyers given the current exchange rate. Therefore it should be in SP's interest to keep the buyers happy by paying compensation quarterly rather than on handover or to delay/reduce all payments until handover rather than having to pay all money back to all buyers.

However this does not seem to be the case and SP are refusing to pay compensation quarterly. Therefore full action will be taken against SP.

Whats the best way to get this started, first step i guess a list of names of investors and unit number/s whom what to create a group ?

Individual letters, followed by individual complaints to RERA will have more of an impact.......RERA Advice :cheers:

RERA Website: http://rpdubai.ae/rpdubai/home.jsp?lang=0 See complaints section.

:( :( :( :(

Good luck guys!

SP are now not planning to pay LPP compensation payments until handover. Therefore you need to budget at least AED 5 = £1 for another 10 quarters before you can expect any rent. :bash: Around £50,000 for a typical 2 bed. I think they will now have to be forced to implement the emergency rescue plan of delaying payments from buyers in order to prevent a very large number of repossessions which they will not be able to sell on.

I think everyone should join together and demand that compensation is paid quarterly for the good of SP and their customers or at least refuse to pay the equivalent amount.

This is disgraceful. Doesn't this totaly go against your contracts? I look at what's happening here and can see that this is what will happen with my investment in Bay Central.

All SP investors need to join forces and get what we were promised.

With regards to half finished projects, then as I undrstand it the Master Developer (in this case Emaar) must finish the development.

This is disgraceful. Doesn't this totaly go against your contracts? I look at what's happening here and can see that this is what will happen with my investment in Bay Central.

All SP investors need to join forces and get what we were promised.

With regards to half finished projects, then as I undrstand it the Master Developer (in this case Emaar) must finish the development.

On your last point, I don't think they have any obligation to finish anything. Take a look at the Lighthouse, it is still a rubble pile 3 years on.

Emaar have their own problems to deal with on PI and The Quays which by pure coincidence are DCE sites.

Regarding the compensation, I think your agreements spell out how it is calculated but does not detail when or how it is paid. This allows SP to string things along without confirming the amount they are paying right until the end, if anything. I don't have an agreement to refer to so I can only offer my 2 cents.

Spoke to Select today on LLP compensation and they advised they have still not confirmed how they will pay this but expected to have this information in the next few days. On constuction they are still saying Sept 09, and no one at any level in the organisation believes that this is not possible. Whatever !! :bash:

^^ It's either a confirmation of their incompetence and inexperience or a willingness to deceive.

^^
maybe they are just playing safe, ludicrous but possible. also, they must be cutting costs as their website doesn't look as sleak as 6 months ago. :down:

on the bright side, construction is progressing steadly and i am still very happy to have purchased my unit.

it might not be the tallest of the block or the closest to the water but the torch is going to be one of the best looking towers of the whole marina.

Have we not agreed that SP has a fixed contract with DCE & most likely a fixed handover date, give or take a few months. They must be conveying what DCE is promising & officially can't deviate from it.
blame the right people, DCE.

Regarding the compensation, I think your agreements spell out how it is calculated but does not detail when or how it is paid. This allows SP to string things along without confirming the amount they are paying right until the end, if anything. I don't have an agreement to refer to so I can only offer my 2 cents.

TB is right; - I have a one line e-mail confirming that compensation will be calculated at completion and deducted from the final amount owing - but absolutely no detail. I have asked for clarification and taking into account interests rates that will vary until completion I also asked for a worked example to how this will work. I expect there will be some resistance to providing that example, but if I get it I'll post it.

TB is right; - I have a one line e-mail confirming that compensation will be calculated at completion and deducted from the final amount owing - but absolutely no detail. I have asked for clarification and taking into account interests rates that will vary until completion I also asked for a worked example to how this will work. I expect there will be some resistance to providing that example, but if I get it I'll post it.

Yousuf, was this enquired for LLP or STD plan ? thanks

I am not defending SP in anyway shape or form but i think everyone is being a bit premature with the mass complaning to RERA just yet.

The progress at the Torch is good at the moment, even die hard SP basher True Blue would have to admit that.

The master "Imre" himself has commented on how speedy the progress is with regard to the tower and even the glass cladding.

Very few buildings in Dubai complete within their original schedule.

Yes SP are feeding us bullshit about Sept 09 completion but we all know that.

I would suggest that anyone wishing to cause the developers reputation any damage, and in turn damage the reputation of their development and investments, before you do just have a look around the Marina, or even Dubai and put the situation into some kind of context.

If a developer says Sept 2009 completion. In Dubai terms this means Sept 2010, allow another 6 months for hickups and it wont be far off, in my simple brain.

Be thankfull you didn't invest in Bay Central, the Lighthouse, or other projects that have been, or will be cancelled, or are suffering long delays.

I came into this development fairly late on (early 2007), thats just because personaly i would not throw my money into an investment that had not started construction yet.

For early investors into this project 2005/6 it must be very fustrating indeed and i am not trying to suggest your concerns are not valid, i am just trying to say that all of the complaints we are making are common place in off plan developments, and more so in Dubai. If we all start waving sticks around it could potentially do more harm than good.

Be it DCE or Arabtec then i seriously doubt that a 5/6 day floor cycle can be greatly improved upon and if SP are put under pressure by investors or RERA to finish sooner then all that will happen is quality will suffer as a result.

Personaly i would rather lose a years rental income and have a half decent finish to a property that i will own for the next 30+ years.

To compare Bay Central to the Lighthouse is a bit harsh.

Yousuf, was this enquired for LLP or STD plan ? thanks

It applies to both STD and LLP, no compensation to be paid for 2.5 years yet. This is the main initiator for people I have been talking to here to report SP to RERA on mass.

Yousuf, was this enquired for LLP or STD plan ? thanks

Hi Jeffers - my inquiry was for the Standard payment plan and not the LPP.

The same response was given for LPP also.

Hi Jeffers - my inquiry was for the Standard payment plan and not the LPP.

I have now been told that on the LLP, the compensation will be added to our accounts and offset against our qtrly payments and not paid at the end or on completion, which if this is true and does not change before the end of the year is a bit of better news.

High Times, I do agree with what you are saying, but I think you like me have several investments here and when I add the qtrly payments for the next year, mine somewhere in the region of £80k, which represents a 18 month delay from contract so some £120k extra I have had pay without rent.. and this is just for 1 more years delay, it could be upto £200k if we dont see the properties until late 2010 ! ouch ! And this is just the amounts Ive paid since June 08 contract competion date, and not the payments made since May 05 !

I am not defending SP in anyway shape or form but i think everyone is being a bit premature with the mass complaning to RERA just yet.

The progress at the Torch is good at the moment, even die hard SP basher True Blue would have to admit that.

The master "Imre" himself has commented on how speedy the progress is with regard to the tower and even the glass cladding.

Very few buildings in Dubai complete within their original schedule.

Yes SP are feeding us bullshit about Sept 09 completion but we all know that.

I would suggest that anyone wishing to cause the developers reputation any damage, and in turn damage the reputation of their development and investments, before you do just have a look around the Marina, or even Dubai and put the situation into some kind of context.

If a developer says Sept 2009 completion. In Dubai terms this means Sept 2010, allow another 6 months for hickups and it wont be far off, in my simple brain.

Be thankfull you didn't invest in Bay Central, the Lighthouse, or other projects that have been, or will be cancelled, or are suffering long delays.

I came into this development fairly late on (early 2007), thats just because personaly i would not throw my money into an investment that had not started construction yet.

For early investors into this project 2005/6 it must be very fustrating indeed and i am not trying to suggest your concerns are not valid, i am just trying to say that all of the complaints we are making are common place in off plan developments, and more so in Dubai. If we all start waving sticks around it could potentially do more harm than good.

Be it DCE or Arabtec then i seriously doubt that a 5/6 day floor cycle can be greatly improved upon and if SP are put under pressure by investors or RERA to finish sooner then all that will happen is quality will suffer as a result.

Personaly i would rather lose a years rental income and have a half decent finish to a property that i will own for the next 30+ years.

What a load of Bollox.
We were originally promised December 07 (June 08 in the contract). We knew that would not be achieved at the time and we had similar thoughts to yours but now, three years later, to ask people to allow for a little bit of delay here and there is scandalous in my opinion. The way the compensation is being dragged on to the completion date where they will find an excuse not to pay it is unbelievable and the way that they separated the company boards and starting to put distance between the two companies is too predictable.

I am taking them on either way, I don't care about reputations. If they don't care about their own reputation, why do you expect people who are keeping them in business to care. This is business gone mad fundamentally.

:horse::horse::horse::gunz::gunz::gunz::gunz::horse::horse:

What a load of Bollox.
We were originally promised December 07 (June 08 in the contract). We knew that would not be achieved at the time and we had similar thoughts to yours but now, three years later, to ask people to allow for a little bit of delay here and there is scandalous in my opinion. The way the compensation is being dragged on to the completion date where they will find an excuse not to pay it is unbelievable and the way that they separated the company boards and starting to put distance between the two companies is too predictable.

I am taking them on either way, I don't care about reputations. If they don't care about their own reputation, why do you expect people who are keeping them in business to care. This is business gone mad fundamentally.

Clearly our situations are totaly different and I am not trying to pretend all is well. I am only saying that things could be a whole lot worse, and you never know just might be before too long.

I will continue to count my blessings that the Torch is growing at 1 floor a week, cladding being added all the time, and interior fit outs well underway.

Good luck. :okay:

I believe I contracted in Spring/Summer 2005, with completion anticipated by June 2007 and an end-stop date of December 2008.

My three two-bedroom apartments, on high floors, would be likely to rent for AED 230k each, were I able to put tenants into them in time for the New Year. That's AED 690k that ought to be sitting in my bank account in a few weeks' time, but isn't. I live in the UK, and at the current exchange rate we're talking about £130,000 - something like five times the average full-time wage in my country. I'm not going to write off that sum, nor indeed to overlook the fact that I'm unlikely to take delivery in 2010 either.

The bottom line is this: I bought into the project on the basis of a contract that anticipated a two-year build. It could take double that time, or more. If the developer thinks it can pass that off as incidental and not a breach of the clause obliging them to use their reasonable endeavours to complete the project on time, they're being very naive.

That said, I accept High Times' point that it's not in our interests to break the developer. Eat into its profit margin or reduce its rate of growth, sure, but not break it. We need the project to be completed.

Don't forget that the majority of contracts in Dubai have clauses which allow the buyer to retrieve all money paid so far in the case of breach of contract by the developer.

As this will be the case for the Torch at the start of the new year, anyone who is now unable to make reypayments should be entitled to have their money refunded which will give a 25% cash profit for most.

The majority of investors now have an exit strategy should they be unable to continue to make the payments for the next 2 years because of compensation not being paid in a reasonable manner by Select.

I imagine there must be a large number of people who can not afford that now that they have an extra 2 or 3 year delay to pay for without compensation and at the new devalued pound rate.

I hope that the developer does not go bust but given this scenario it is now a distinct possibility. Select will have to ensure that compensation is available to help pull through these bad times and discourage investors from exiting in droves with a 25% profit.

boring

^^

The Torch is getting:

http://i37.tinypic.com/dwq8gn.jpg

happy now :lol:

http://i35.tinypic.com/2nknq8o.jpg

Don't forget that the majority of contracts in Dubai have clauses which allow the buyer to retrieve all money paid so far in the case of breach of contract by the developer.

As this will be the case for the Torch at the start of the new year, anyone who is now unable to make reypayments should be entitled to have their money refunded which will give a 25% cash profit for most.

The majority of investors now have an exit strategy should they be unable to continue to make the payments for the next 2 years because of compensation not being paid in a reasonable manner by Select.

I imagine there must be a large number of people who can not afford that now that they have an extra 2 or 3 year delay to pay for without compensation and at the new devalued pound rate.

I hope that the developer does not go bust but given this scenario it is now a distinct possibility. Select will have to ensure that compensation is available to help pull through these bad times and discourage investors from exiting in droves with a 25% profit.

I take your point. To some degree, this gives us some interesting leverage. If a large number of torch buyers cancel simultaneously, Select faces at best a big cash outflow that it hadn't anticipated and, at worst, insolvency. Obviously, it's not in our collective interests for the second scenario to come to pass. But the thought of what we could do to his business empire might well focus Mr Stott's mind if we presented the alternatives to him in these stark terms... especially if a solicitor advised us that securing the return of monies paid to date needn't be the end of our claim (loss of capital appreciation, loss of rental income etc).

I take your point. To some degree, this gives us some interesting leverage. If a large number of torch buyers cancel simultaneously, Select faces at best a big cash outflow that it hadn't anticipated and, at worst, insolvency. Obviously, it's not in our collective interests for the second scenario to come to pass. But the thought of what we could do to his business empire might well focus Mr Stott's mind if we presented the alternatives to him in these stark terms... especially if a solicitor advised us that securing the return of monies paid to date needn't be the end of our claim (loss of capital appreciation, loss of rental income etc).

I am sure me and other investors from Bay Central would also be happy to help in anyway possible!:cheers:

That should focus their minds considerably.

Poor guys! How glad am I not to be stuck in this mess!

Ture, but I hope you are not stuck in this one instead http://www.building.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=284&storycode=3129380&c=0

Naz - I'm involved with the BMV market however despite lots of good bargains available here in the UK currently I still think those that can stick out the tough year ahead in Dubai will reap more rewards than those investing here in the UK.

Happy Milestone for The Torch in 2009

#1 outside Topped Off

Naz - I'm involved with the BMV market however despite lots of good bargains available here in the UK currently I still think those that can stick out the tough year ahead in Dubai will reap more rewards than those investing here in the UK.
Totally agree UK is knackered Dubai in two years will be back to boom

NAZ, I spoke to betterhomes today he valued the Torch tower when completed for 1 bed unit will fetch approx AED 2.1 Million + and a rental yeild of 10-12 %

Whos laughing now NAZ UK ,Oh yes it appears you are savvy invester after all....:cheers:

Guys name @ betterhomes is warren if you want to speak to him naz,you might gain valuable investment advice...I also spoke to sherwoods estate agents in duabi yesterday ,his valuation assesment his the same AED 2 Million +++ for 1 bedder..when completed and a rental yeild of 10-15%...

Guys name @ betterhomes is warren if you want to speak to him naz,you might gain valuable investment advice...I also spoke to sherwoods estate agents in duabi yesterday ,his valuation assesment his the same AED 2 Million +++ for 1 bedder..when completed and a rental yeild of 10-15%...

I very much doubt you will be able to sell it for 2.1 mil aed even when complete :)

Arfie, i have had 2 independent valuations from property experts..and sure enough in 18 months time we will soon find out what the units true price would sell for...

say even on completion worst case scenario if the units sell for a bottom price of AED 1.8 Million we have still made a tidy sum....

Do some research on what (The point resales) are fetching now as the tower has topped out ?? you'll be surprised arfie

whats your opinion arfie

Arfie, i have had 2 independent valuations from property experts..and sure enough in 18 months time we will soon find out what the units true price would sell for...

say even on completion worst case scenario if the units sell for a bottom price of AED 1.8 Million we have still made a tidy sum....

Do some research on what (The point resales) are fetching now as the tower has topped out ?? you'll be surprised arfie

whats your opinion arfie


I myself have a 2 bed in the Torch. I think the 2 bed prices on completion will be between 2.1-2.5 mil aed and 1 beds 1.5-1.9 mil aed. I know Torch resale listed are high but will they fetch that much ? Don't get me wrong I reckon the Torch is great but in 2 years time there will be alot of units available but I agree with you buyers will make nice profit!

If you look at how many off plan projects in dubai are on hold pending the global issues, delayed due to funding issues or cancelled because the developers can't find manpower etc etc, to start construction there will still be a hugh supply problem even in 2 years time and the rental will be fantastic even at 8 % rental yield worst case..

what do you think buddy

It applies to both STD and LLP, no compensation to be paid for 2.5 years yet. This is the main initiator for people I have been talking to here to report SP to RERA on mass.

Hi All

Why don't we each invoice SP on mass, on a specific date, from a single instructed solicitor, for amounts due in compensation for the quarter from Dec to Feb. Within the invoice, as per UK law, we state that late payment will incur interest at 1% above bank base rate (this is perfectly legal) and as such, if they don't pay up, we will also legally be entitled to claim additional interest from them, which , after all, is only fair, as they would be withholding our monies and earning interest on our monies instead.

This also sets a legal precidence that we have sent an invoice from a legal entity representing us collectively for a reason, that we believe we are entitled to do so, as our interpretation of the contract.

This then forces the issue: Does Mark Stott wish to pay us on time, or if not, does he wish to fight us and risk having to pay us additional interest, on top of the standard compensation, if he loses?????

Just an idea - it would be hilarious though, for his Accounts department receives 500 invoices, all on the same day !!! :banana:

May be he might get a phone call from his FD - hmm:nuts:

The Torch

Just an idea - it would be hilarious though, for his Accounts department receives 500 invoices, all on the same day !!! The Torch

I would be surprised if there are more than 30 genuine Torch investors who are members of SSC. Using an average of 2 units per investor thats 60 units. That represents less than 10% of the tower.

Somewtimes i think that WE all like to think that SSC represents the whole investing public of Dubai.

It doesn't i'm afraid. It's a very small minority.

Does Mark Stott wish to pay us on time, or if not, does he wish to fight us and risk having to pay us additional interest, on top of the standard compensation, if he loses?????

You have absolutely no contractual dealings with Mark Stott. Think of him as an estate agent that has sold you a new house built by a small local builder. Once you have completed the sale and you have a problem you need to deal with the builder not the agent.

I would be surprised if there are more than 30 genuine Torch investors who are members of SSC. Using an average of 2 units per investor thats 60 units. That represents less than 10% of the tower.

Somewtimes i think that WE all like to think that SSC represents the whole investing public of Dubai.

It doesn't i'm afraid. It's a very small minority.



You have absolutely no contractual dealings with Mark Stott. Think of him as an estate agent that has sold you a new house built by a small local builder. Once you have completed the sale and you have a problem you need to deal with the builder not the agent.

For a smart guy, your recent posts are really silly. You have not done your homework yet again. You only have to scratch the surface (or a decent lawyer) to see how much of a connection there is. :bash::bash:

You will be surprise on the numbers of investors that read but don't participate on this forum.

It would only take one law suit and a good connection to the press to bring those F****s down :naughty:

I really am starting to worry about you, unless you are playing a devil's advocate to ignite the debate and get a few more ideas onto the table :nuts:

@the DS/SG people on this forum (2 at least write here), your posts are pathetic and not even worth replying to. Soon you will get some of what you deserve.......I promise :cheers:

@The Torch, good idea, keep the ideas coming. I am willing to do anything, I started and will not stop until I get my rights both in Dubai and the UK. :cheers:

Latest Handover prediction:
6/12/2008 40th Floor
10/10/2009 to 31/10/2009 toped up (depending on how many floors, still confused about the number of floors)
26/12/2009 8 weeks contingency (heat, rain and bollox)
26/12/2010 Complete remaining internals, M&E installation and commissioning
20/2/2011 8 Weeks inspections, permits and rectification of issues
17/4/2011 8 Weeks Snagging and Handover (I know of a 33 floor building by DCE that started handover in June and still going on to date)

The Torch Feature can be casted off-site and lifted into place. It does not impact on handover dates. The key is the Fire certificate for a fully completed building that will enable the final connections of Water and Electricity and final Systems commissioning prior to the start of the handover which could be done in many ways.

For this building to be habitable, you are really looking at mid of 2011 and I will be (or a charity of my choice) better off by £200. :cheers:

There is also always a medium to high risk of the possibility of this building never getting completed, you can think about what happens then :cry: :cry:

Should we really be rocking the boat when things seem to be going at a good speed. I know we should be getting compensation etc but I already have another apartment on another complex which won't be built so I'm trying to get my 50% paid to date back. I also have an apartment on another complex which has just been moved to the on/hold section and I don't know what is happening there.

I was happy to think that one out of my 3 apartments would be built.

I would rather get the Torch completed and make a good profit when it's finished than it get stopped and try to get the money invested back plus interest. I hope we will still get some kind of compensation for the delays.

I hope we will still get some kind of compensation for the delays.

you hope?!? for someone whom has 2 out of 3 investments on hold, you should be much more focused on getting the most back i.e. compensation, etc.

@mackie, apart from the suggestion that TT might not be completed, i think you have nailed it.

Apart from written confirmation that compensation will be paid quarterly for those on LPP, we also need written confirmation on which LIBOR rate will be used for the calculation. Last 3 month EIBOR rate was 4.43%, so this would be 5.43% compensation on total money paid.

I would be surprised if there are more than 30 genuine Torch investors who are members of SSC. Using an average of 2 units per investor thats 60 units. That represents less than 10% of the tower.


It does not change the fact that 100s of investors in the torch on the LPP may now default on their payments unless the compensation is paid in a reasonable manner. From 1st Jan, rather than defaulting their payments and having their units taken from them, the investors can demand all money paid so far to be returned in 30 days. They will also make a very good profit from the exchange rate, so there is a big incentive to do so. Therefore Select NEEDS to keep theses people happy and able to pay by providing timely compensation up until occupation in 2011.

It does not change the fact that 100s of investors in the torch on the LPP may now default on their payments unless the compensation is paid in a reasonable manner. From 1st Jan, rather than defaulting their payments and having their units taken from them, the investors can demand all money paid so far to be returned in 30 days. They will also make a very good profit from the exchange rate, so there is a big incentive to do so. Therefore Select NEEDS to keep theses people happy and able to pay by providing timely compensation up until occupation in 2011.

In the current conditions if the Torch gets built and handed over in 2010 we should be pleased. Alot of developments have not even got off the ground and won't get built.

I would be pleased, I hope that select will take the appropriate action to allow this to happen.

The speed/progress of the development at this moment in time is very good. Lets just pray they keep it up.

Cladding is being done and they have started the internal work so lets hope by end of 2010 its handed over.

@Steve;

You need to get your compensation ASAP, How do you know that any of them will still be in business in 2010? If you think that anyone is immune no matter who the backers are, you are completely wrong.


I have seen recently much larger organisations (World Class/Blue Chip, call it what you will) cancelling projects midway (including in the Middle East & the USA). As a matter of fact, I am away preparing for a Monday meeting re-negotiating on a project that could be frozen for one of the world leading companies despite it being an essential to their business as they must comply with recent legislations. :nuts:

What I am saying here, anything could happen over the next 18/24 months and don't just sit back and hope for the best. It will not happen unless you make it happen :cheers:

Counting our lucky stars or shit happens attitude will not be helpful later on when you can do nothing about it :cheers:

I apologise in advance if this makes people uncomfortable or worried in any way but some one has to say it. :cheers:

As you probably know Bay Central is one of SP's projects. We are 2/3 years behind Torch it seems with some of the foundation work being done.

SP have written to buyers recently saying there will be a 12 month delay and new completion date is Dec 2010.

There has been some speculation about BCD/SP claiming Force Majeure for this delay.

1st January 2012 is a long time off but should we be concerned about clause 16.3 of the purchase agreement for BC

"If the Buyer has fullfilled all his obligations under the terms of this Agreement and the Seller is unable to serve notice of completion of the Completion date of the Property by 1st January 2012, and such delay is due to Force Majeure, then either party shall have the right to terminate this agreement by serving on the other twenty (20) Business Days notice in writing. The buyer shall have no claims against the Seller in respect of damages, compensation or costs."

In the contract Force Majeure is defined as
" ...... ; and/or any event allowing a Developer an extension of time under the relevant building contract(s);"

I was wondering is there a similar clause in the Torch contract

slowhand99

As I mentioned before on the BC Thread, the two contracts are almost identical. Except for a couple of points, the compensation is one of them.

Have a nice weekend everyone. :cheers:

I know Altin will find all of this boring so here is one for him;

French say they need biggest condoms http://current.com/items/89569493/french_say_they_need_biggest_condoms.htm

Bloody show offs :lol:

Dear Forum members just a quick Q.

If an investor in the torch wants to sell an apartment and is on the LPP, do you have to pay all monies owed (the LPP cost of the apartment) to SP or is it calculated in a different way.

Regards

MD

In the payment section in the contract it shows you an amount which is your current balance to fully repay if you wish to clear the balance, shown at each payment date ... hope that makes sense.

^^ the contract can be reassigned and the LPP payments continued by the new owner.

For a smart guy, your recent posts are really silly. You have not done your homework yet again. You only have to scratch the surface (or a decent lawyer) to see how much of a connection there is. :bash::bash:

Mackie, I respect your opinions and knowledge in the construction arena. I have always found your advice to be accurate and invaluable.

I just happen to disagree with you on this matter in the context of what is happening both Globally, and more locally in Dubai.

Yes I agree that a connection between SP & The Torch Development LLC can be established. One is clearly acting as an agent of the other. Legally that’s all it is. Your UK rights are limited to miss-elling and misrepresentations under OFT regulations as SP are not regulated or even a member of any regulatory organisation. You do have some legal redress as they trade under UK legislation, but only in respect of what they have done which is SELL.

As you know I am always keen on education.

Firstly may I ask what you what it is that SP have done that is illegal ?

Secondly what is it that The Torch Development LLC are not doing to meet their contractual obligations to such a degree that you can get a Dubai court to uphold a clause in their contract to rule in your favour?

I’m not trying to be pedantic. I may just be silly as you say but apart from being slow and behind schedule (as is 90% of Dubai), I don’t see your problem.


You will be surprise on the numbers of investors that read but don't participate on this forum. It would only take one law suit and a good connection to the press to bring those F****s down :naughty:

Really ..? How would this help us ?

This is the time when we need to be keeping calm and counting our blessings that we have progress. Trust me, if the day comes when there's a call to arms, I guarantee you that I'll be at the front of the que, and you will need to hold me back.

It is my view that Dubai is entering a very dangerous phase of it’s development at the moment. Many projects will be cancelled, many projects put on hold, and many projects scaled back.

RERA are a toothless animal who may bark but are too scared to bite, sad but true. In the imminent financial climate survival is the name of the game and RERA will not be in a position to flex any muscle towards a developer who can prove they are making steady progress on their development, even though it may not be to the complete satisfaction of the investor.

I agree with you when you say that big companies are in trouble. That’s why I’m saying that all this talk of holding payments back and complaining to RERA is not a wise move. Putting additional financial strain on a developer at this stage of the development, in this economic climate is tantamount to commercial suicide in my opinion.

Bitching to RERA will do nothing as the developer will quite rightly reply and say “yes we are behind schedule, but who isn’t and we are making steady progress now”. Case closed.

It does not change the fact that 100s of investors in the torch on the LPP may now default on their payments unless the compensation is paid in a reasonable manner. From 1st Jan, rather than defaulting their payments and having their units taken from them, the investors can demand all money paid so far to be returned in 30 days. They will also make a very good profit from the exchange rate, so there is a big incentive to do so. Therefore Select NEEDS to keep theses people happy and able to pay by providing timely compensation up until occupation in 2011.

I think the only aspect of the recent complaints that hold any validity is on the payment of compensation. This should be calculated each time a payment is due and credited against the payment (for LPP) as this is a fair way to apply the funds. For those investors savvy enough to have fixed their Sterling earlier, and have pre booked currency, then the compensation can be placed in a holding account and used at the discretion of the investor (when any forward contract runs out).

If investors take up the offer of a full refund of premiums paid to date, then this could effectively kill this development.

I suspect this wont happen as this would not represent a real return on investment as some of the original payments made into the Torch were made at exchange rates of around 6.5 ish (so 25% currency gain is an excessive statement), and investors know that they can sell for 1200 psf minimum rather than just get a return of premiums so for all of our sakes i prey this dosnt happen

To me it's beggining to feel like where all on a big boat that is slowly but surely heading into the docks, we might be taking on a little water here and there which is why we all need to be carefull not to rock the boat. The more movement and panic sets in, the more risk there is of sinking the ship.

we might be taking on a little water here here which is why we all need to be carefull not to rock the boat. The more movement and panic sets in, the more risk there is of sinking the ship.

http://i36.tinypic.com/30uprgo.jpg

and we should not be too greedy.

just compensation paid quarterly will be fine :cheers:

I agree with you High Times 100 %,

^^ MOAF has taken over, now that morris has been sacked.

Hi All

Why don't we each invoice SP on mass, on a specific date, from a single instructed solicitor, for amounts due in compensation for the quarter from Dec to Feb. Within the invoice, as per UK law, we state that late payment will incur interest at 1% above bank base rate (this is perfectly legal) and as such, if they don't pay up, we will also legally be entitled to claim additional interest from them, which , after all, is only fair, as they would be withholding our monies and earning interest on our monies instead.

This also sets a legal precidence that we have sent an invoice from a legal entity representing us collectively for a reason, that we believe we are entitled to do so, as our interpretation of the contract.

This then forces the issue: Does Mark Stott wish to pay us on time, or if not, does he wish to fight us and risk having to pay us additional interest, on top of the standard compensation, if he loses?????

Just an idea - it would be hilarious though, for his Accounts department receives 500 invoices, all on the same day !!! :banana:

May be he might get a phone call from his FD - hmm:nuts:

The Torch

I like this idea, but suggest changing one crucial detail: I wouldn't invoice them for the contractual compensation, because I believe clause 9.3 applies. Instead, I'd invoice them for a year's rental, at market rates, on the apartment or apartments that you own.

Should we really be rocking the boat when things seem to be going at a good speed. I know we should be getting compensation etc but I already have another apartment on another complex which won't be built so I'm trying to get my 50% paid to date back. I also have an apartment on another complex which has just been moved to the on/hold section and I don't know what is happening there.

I was happy to think that one out of my 3 apartments would be built.

I would rather get the Torch completed and make a good profit when it's finished than it get stopped and try to get the money invested back plus interest. I hope we will still get some kind of compensation for the delays.

Doesn't this just speak volumes about the Dubai phenomenon? A developer, Torch Select, looks like delivering your apartment two years late - at best - and you want to let them off, because it's a lot better than the outcome with your two other purchases in that country, one of which won't be built and the other's future is uncertain.

The Dubai government surely needs to step in to ensure that all projects released to date and contracted to buyers are completed. And the court system and RERA need to ensure that developers who deliver late do the right thing by their customers.

Thank you Dubai Steve, I will take it as a complement ,,Talk of the "Morrismarina" were the devil is he..????

There are quite a few investors,myself included who bought on the Torch during 2008.Compensation does not kick in until mid 2010.
I totally understand where the original investors are coming from believe me, as I myself experienced major issues regarding compensation with other developments.However, that said the momentum with the Torch construction is now good and by engaging lawyers(who love this sort of thing as it is easy money......writing letters and charging huge sums of money) and entering into long term litigation could in my opinion have a negative effect.I have close friends who invested into the "Lighthouse" and I hear daily the battles going on, including the extra large sums of lawyers fees being racked up.

The last thing we want is both financial and labour resources from the Torch diverted to another SP/DS project just to piss everybody off and the battles take place in court.

Just my two pennies worth guys!!

As far as prices go, I think they will be around 1800-2000AED per sq ft on completion.

Tosh well said old boy,said like a true gentleman, and yes i agree with estimate on the 1800-2000AED per sq ft on completion..

Morrismarina, last post was on the 19th Novemebr 2008,were is he...

Morrismarina, last post was on the 19th Novemebr 2008,were is he...

he told me he has been busy taking wedding videos :) when he is not busy at SP

is that from a reliable source slowhand99...???

is that from a reliable source slowhand99...???

the first bit is ie morris himself. The second bit is a guess following on from posts 2424 and 2425 on BC thread :) and his subsequence absence. MOAF please tell Morris I'm sorry if this is not accurate

ok chief

Thank you Dubai Steve, I will take it as a complement ,,Talk of the "Morrismarina" were the devil is he..????

Your welcome russell. I think morris went underground.

http://i33.tinypic.com/2lt3cc9.jpg

Tosh, this is exactly what I mean. While the speed is good lets get it finished. It's in DS's interest to complete one building (or 2 ,The Point as well) at a high quality for their reputation.

Tosh, this is exactly what I mean. While the speed is good lets get it finished. It's in DS's interest to complete one building (or 2 ,The Point as well) at a high quality for their reputation.

Fast becoming a lost cause

Hopefully they will turn that around next week if they do the sensible thing and announce the method of compensation for the LPP to be quarterly.

Hopefully they will turn that around next week if they do the sensible thing and announce the method of compensation for the LPP to be quarterly.


^^
there is as much chance of this happening as a Sept 2009 completion...

Jillian from SP said they would now be paying quarterly. Lets hope it was not just lies.

Jillian from SP said they would now be paying quarterly. Lets hope it was not just lies.


Who, the UK-based Finance woman? Ask her when the expected completion date is and we'll soon know how honest they are:)

I’m not trying to sound pessimistic, I myself want the compensation asap, but I recall someone (possibly True Blue) saying that there wasn’t a hope of us getting compensation and there would be excuse (delay) after excuse (delay) and true to form, that’s exactly what's happening.

Until I see confirmation that people whether on SPP or LPP actually get the money, I can no longer rely on it happening at all.:ohno:

07/December/2008

Dubai Marina,tallest block

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/5135/imresolt004qp8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/292/imresolt006lm2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9408/imresolt007bh2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

just been guaranteed compensation by sp. good news.

^^ but no details on when?

just been guaranteed compensation by sp. good news.


i do hope so.

There finally seems to be really good progress on this build, so it would be a shame if this issue ends up undermining the positives we've all seen recently.

that is nothing , what developers said, have you got post dated cheque or bank guarantee?

^^ but no details on when?

sp have assured me that when the property is complete i will recieve full compensation.........................in the form of one set of front door keys.:lol::lol::lol::lol:

that is nothing , what developers said, have you got post dated cheque or bank guarantee?

You are right Imre, it is worth nothing. I have a written communication here that they will only pay compensation after completion, the story changes depending on who you speak to.

Yes I agree that a connection between SP & The Torch Development LLC can be established. One is clearly acting as an agent of the other. Legally that’s all it is.

Likewise, I like you and I think you know your stuff :hug: but you are very wrong, Other connections exist and we have proof .

Firstly may I ask what you what it is that SP have done that is illegal ?

Quite a few things, can't share them at the moment :)

Secondly what is it that The Torch Development LLC are not doing to meet their contractual obligations to such a degree that you can get a Dubai court to uphold a clause in their contract to rule in your favour?

Again quite a few things some I can share like planning, contingencies, risk identification and mitigation....etc. Other more advanced areas, I can't share at present.


Really ..? How would this help us ?

At the moment and if the Escrow account is utilised appropriately (We can't tell yet until we see a statement) there will be enough money to finish the development by any body. If left for another 12/18 months, there might be not enough money if at all (Ignoring final payments and llp which is structured differently with a bank). Time is a key :cheers:

RERA are a toothless animal who may bark but are too scared to bite, sad but true. In the imminent financial climate survival is the name of the game and RERA will not be in a position to flex any muscle towards a developer who can prove they are making steady progress on their development, even though it may not be to the complete satisfaction of the investor.

Bitching to RERA will do nothing as the developer will quite rightly reply and say “yes we are behind schedule, but who isn’t and we are making steady progress now”. Case closed.

I was (still am) of the same opinion about RERA but I had two different conversations with them (they called me back, the second time) and they seem to be interested..........Again, I remain unsure about them and the Dubai court but while they seem to be positive and accommodating to a degree, it is worth keeping this conversation going.

http://i36.tinypic.com/30uprgo.jpg

and we should not be too greedy.

just compensation paid quarterly will be fine :cheers:

There was no need to re-post my photo :lol: This is not an option at present but who knows :dunno:

http://i37.tinypic.com/e1c2es.jpg

You are right Imre, it is worth nothing. I have a written communication here that they will only pay compensation after completion, the story changes depending on who you speak to.



Likewise, I like you and I think you know your stuff :hug: but you are very wrong, Other connections exist and we have proof .



Quite a few things, can't share them at the moment :)



Again quite a few things some I can share like planning, contingencies, risk identification and mitigation....etc. Other more advanced areas, I can't share at present.



At the moment and if the Escrow account is utilised appropriately (We can't tell yet until we see a statement) there will be enough money to finish the development by any body. If left for another 12/18 months, there might be not enough money if at all (Ignoring final payments and llp which is structured differently with a bank). Time is a key :cheers:



I was (still am) of the same opinion about RERA but I had two different conversations with them (they called me back, the second time) and they seem to be interested..........Again, I remain unsure about them and the Dubai court but while they seem to be positive and accommodating to a degree, it is worth keeping this conversation going.



There was no need to re-post my photo :lol: This is not an option at present but who knows :dunno:


can you prove that you have proof that sp has no proof that they can prove that know what they can and can't prove?:ohno:

does this building exist and is dubai legal?:nuts:

can you prove that you have proof that sp has no proof that they can prove that know what they can and can't prove?:ohno:

does this building exist and is dubai legal?:nuts:


It all right for you, your apartment has been built and you can just move in / squat if anything happens :lol:

I like this idea, but suggest changing one crucial detail: I wouldn't invoice them for the contractual compensation, because I believe clause 9.3 applies. Instead, I'd invoice them for a year's rental, at market rates, on the apartment or apartments that you own.

Hi Mistermark

Not convinced that legally, SP are liable for any loss of rental revenues due to delays. Don't think this is acceptable and would be at your risk, but hey, may be you know better.

The Torch

***

Hi Mistermark

Not convinced that legally, SP are liable for any loss of rental revenues due to delays. Don't think this is acceptable and would be at your risk, but hey, may be you know better.

The Torch

I think it depends on whether or not you think they're in breach of clause 9.3 of the sale and purchase agreement, which obliges them to use their reasonable endeavours to complete the project on time. If you believe they've done this, then all you're entitled to is the contractual completion (the interest rate and payment schedule for which is unclear, as we all know); if you believe they are in breach of 9.3, there's no clause in the contract limiting their liability, so it's for you to demonstrate what your losses have been as a result of their breach and them claim them.

Personally, I can't accept that they've used their reasonable endeavours to finish the project on time when it was less than half built on the anticipated completion date. And my losses are the rent I would have received from letting these apartments, had they been ready on time, plus interest and costs...

Morris?

http://i33.tinypic.com/zkpawn.jpg

December 8th

http://i33.tinypic.com/ziwv1s.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/23tp3it.jpg

http://i33.tinypic.com/r9mxd2.jpg

With Princess Tower

http://i38.tinypic.com/aeqhxe.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/2805spg.jpg

http://i33.tinypic.com/qpjryd.jpg

^^ nice photos, thanks Altind!

:lol: at Morris.

40 Floors high now so maybe 43/44 by the end of the year.

Nice photos Altin, nice to see a bit of blue sky.