Fantasmic

I wouldn't mind if TB was interested for the right reasons - and really cared about safety on this site or any other site. He isn't - it's just more of the same - mischief making and nothing more!

It's a shame that the guy can't be more objective; - he has so much to offer - he just belittles himself and destroys his own credibility when he writes the stuff he does on SP developments. I really don't understand why so many people kiss his ring and why he's so revered?

I wouldn't mind if TB was interested for the right reasons - and really cared about safety on this site or any other site. He isn't - it's just more of the same - mischief making and nothing more!

It's a shame that the guy can't be more objective; - he has so much to offer - he just belittles himself and destroys his own credibility when he writes the stuff he does on SP developments. I really don't understand why so many people kiss his ring and why he's so revered?



I would be devastated if there was a loss of life on this site. If my comments result in action to prevent such an incident then I would be delighted.

I would be devastated if there was a loss of life on this site. If my comments result in action to prevent such an incident then I would be delighted.

The personal feelings of owners/investors do not interest me.
Totally agree with you TB - this has NOTHING to do with any issues you have with SP -I,m in DUBAI soon and i,m keeping clear of TT

I share your reservations - Giles are you reading get the H&S sorted - corporate manslaughter indictments probably dont exist in UAE but I am well aware if them in UK

no wonder imre was taking pictures from JLT :lol:

I think there is more chance of being injured by a haggis than hanging around the Torch construction site.

I would be devastated if there was a loss of life on this site. If my comments result in action to prevent such an incident then I would be delighted.

It makes me ashamed for being such a cynic when I read comments like these which are clearly straight from the heart. It's great to know you're out there doing your civil duty for all of us TB. One request though - because TT is such a worry could you patrol the perimeter of the site about 25 time a day please!

To all Torch Owners group members.

New message posted on 26/01/2009 at 16:00 please read, think and discuss.

Any Torch investors who have not joined this group, please do so.

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/torchowners

Can you kindly post the message here? I dont really want another set of username/ password to remember/ save on my PC.

Thanks!


To all Torch Owners group members.

New message posted on 26/01/2009 at 16:00 please read, think and discuss.

Any Torch investors who have not joined this group, please do so.

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/torchowners

Can you kindly post the message here? I dont really want another set of username/ password to remember/ save on my PC.

Thanks!

Sid,

The discussion in question is not for public viewing as SP use this forum to gain and spin information to their benefit.

Not only that, it isn't fair to fill up pages of investment related posts as this forum is for construction enthusiasts more than investors.

So in the interests of respecting the fact that we are here as guests, and to preserve our privacy you will need to join the owners group to get access. I know the username/password thing is a pain but a neccasary evil i'm afraid.

I Miss Morris, bring Morris back :cry::cry::cry::cry:

How do we lure him back? What's in it for him? :cheers:

Lovely

What about if we promise to be nice to him and his mate Giles from DS/SG ........ For a week :lol::banana:

Spoke to DS/SP on Friday, same old rubbish. I like the person that I was talking to so I did not give her hard time. Completion still on target for September 09.
Not sure what are you all complaining about you greedy, inconsiderate B*****s, it's all going to plan. Shortly, you will get a phone call to discuss furnishing your apartment. I went for package A myself, to be delivered just before I get the key in Sept. so it's good news all around. I look forward to their help in renting out the apartment in Sept. 09 and make a bit more money.

Happy days


LOL - nice one Mackie - IF ONLY - IF ONLY

I'm off to the marina in 2 weeks - see what I can find out. Staying at the Royal Meridian if anyone wants a beer - around 12/13th Feb there.

Regards

The Torch

How do we lure him back? What's in it for him? :cheers:

Where are both Morris and Smshsh? Maybe one of them has sold out and re-launched him/herself as Scoobudubai...

I miss Morris too..:(..:cry:

Come back Morris, I'm fed up with all the newbies taking a swipe at me, we need the old pro back.

You can give me some advise on what to spend my rental income from my Cayan apartments I bought in the "arse end"..:):runaway:

Yeah I know what you are all thinking.......a new striker or 2 for the Gers.

I miss Morris too..:(..:cry:

Yeah I know what you are all thinking.......a new striker or 2 for the Gers.

Apparently Coisty was spotted in the JJB January sales eyeing up a pair of half price Admiral boots. Looks like he could be partnering Fleck up front this weekend. That's a blast from the past :lol:

I miss Morris too..:(..:cry:

Come back Morris, I'm fed up with all the newbies taking a swipe at me, we need the old pro back.

You can give me some advise on what to spend my £60k rental income from my Cayan apartments I bought in the "arse end"..:):runaway:

Yeah I know what you are all thinking.......a new striker or 2 for the Gers.Or a new team ??
Who rented the apartments for you TB sounds good rental ?

Coisty needs a pair of snow shoes to stop him sinking into the turf..:laugh:

Or a new team ??
Who rented the apartments for you TB sounds good rental ?

BHomes on Jewels, Dorra is not away yet as only getting offers of 165k unfurnished due to incomplete building so far. I think it is worth min 180k. will wait a bit longer and see.

Rental is good as only AED5.1 - £1. :banana:

Money going the other way is painful just now.

TB, You are not doing yourself any favours here ^^

Just 7 days ago you were complaining how expensive it was to maintain your holiday pad in the Jewels :nuts:

Either BHomes are bloody good at filling apartments within days or you are yanking chains.

I would have thought those rates were very high for the a**e end! Still let the guy enjoy it while it lasts - it wont be for long after all. Everyone deserves to get a break occasionally. All those SP job rejections must have hit the poor b****r pretty hard - he deserves to do well on his retirement income!

^^That's harsh:bash:

Sid,

Not only that, it isn't fair to fill up pages of investment related posts as this forum is for construction enthusiasts more than investors.



To me construction is linked to developing the plot, communication about the development and the customer treatment of those who eventually will make the building come "alive". Thus very relevant how and what SP communicates, including discussing pictures and progress. But please keep the numbers out of it.

Unfortunately neither progress nor communication has been much taken the turmoil of the environment into consideration. So please share all information -transparency is the trend of the time.

Why is there cardboard stuffed into the side of the windows?

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/1493/imresolt38ko6.jpg

^^ Plasterboard.

When it rains expect to see damp patches appearing near your window.

Its credit crunch insulation.. cutbacks left right and centre !! :nuts:

I would have thought those rates were very high for the a**e end! Still let the guy enjoy it while it lasts - it wont be for long after all. Everyone deserves to get a break occasionally. All those SP job rejections must have hit the poor b****r pretty hard - he deserves to do well on his retirement income!

You are probably right! When the Torch gets handed over in September:ohno: all the tenants will vacate their lets in JBR, Marina promenade Jewels etc and move to the Torch. Torch has much better location next to marina phase 1.

Apartments on the marina island close to the beach and JBR Walk are less desirable. People who invested in the Point made a big mistake.

I think by then rents may have dropped quite a bit and tenants will probably be hard to find for all of us; - both ends of the marina.

If those early pictures of the Torch show apartment interiors were anything to go by I'm not sure anyone would be leaving anywhere to rent an aprtment in the Torch. Might need to invest in new kitchen and bathrooms before renting out. Perhaps the delay compensation will pay for that!

I was originally horrified that people were saying - "what's the problem it's only a kitchen and a couple of bathrooms - just rip them out and fit something nice!" It wasn't really what I'd had in mind for a new place - especially one I would be letting. Now I've come around to thinking that it might be necessary to turn it into something a bit nice and better than the others in order to get a tenant.

It pains me to say it but I was impressed with the pics I've seen of the interiors at Dorra Bay. Really quite nice.

Safe system of work:ohno:

Looking at the latest pictures of the Torch, I can't help but worry how unsafely they are working. There is no fall arrest system or debris catch nets. Not safe for anyone walking within 50m of this tower.

The Torch site is unsafe for the workers and the passers by.

Give it a wide berth!

I would be devastated if there was a loss of life on this site. If my comments result in action to prevent such an incident then I would be delighted.

Some examples of Health & Safety Cayan style.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=17850623&postcount=468

My favorite has got to be pic no 4 where we see a non hardhat wearing operative using a 30 mm concrete static drill wearing his Addidas Ghandi's, 15 floors up with 12 inches of concrete between him and high dive to hell.

Also interesting to note that when the Jewels were launched they were stating expected completion date would be in 2006.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=3377767&postcount=2

Owners were still complaining about no pool and various other snagging issues in the second half of 2008.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=22969170&postcount=583
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=22975240&postcount=584

Seems like 18 month - 2 year delay must be the norm in Dubai then.

A bit bitter aren’t we :dunno:

^^ i know!
on this threat it seems to have become the norm, unfortunately.

High Times,

I don't dissagree with you, what these two idiots did was insanity. The safety equipment is onsite to carryout this operation in a safe manner, these idiots acted like cowboys. Funny thing is I never saw them again after the pictures were posted on this forum. Hope they were dealt with.

You are wrong about handover though, Jewels was 12 months late. The pool trouble does not prevent occupation of your apartment. To be fair Cayan have not been more than 12 months late with handovers yet. Take a look at the state of Marinascape communal areas and they have handed over apartments. SP customers have all these problems to look forward to.

You are probably right! When the Torch gets handed over in September:ohno: all the tenants will vacate their lets in JBR, Marina promenade Jewels etc and move to the Torch. Torch has much better location next to marina phase 1.

Apartments on the marina island close to the beach and JBR Walk are less desirable. People who invested in the Point made a big mistake.

But is any of them there within a walking distance from Burj Al Arab? :dunno:

I notice there is a distress sale in the Torch available today - 1 bed at only 1250 psf!

I notice there is a distress sale in the Torch available today - 1 bed at only 1250 psf!

Where do you see this advertised ?

Floor 50??

I notice there is a distress sale in the Torch available today - 1 bed at only 1250 psf!

Exchange rate benefits i would imagine.

A 950 sf 1 bed would change like this for a UK invester selling up and repatriating money to UK

http://i43.tinypic.com/2pous1x.jpg

selling now at 1250 psf is basicaly the same as selling at 1800 psf six months ago.

What floor are we on now must be 49 ish.

^^
as of this afternoon, they seem to be just finishing up 48. should be 49 anyday now.

Are we not supposed to get an update this week as well as interior photographs of ready apartments?

Where do you see this advertised ?

http://www.dubaiventure.co.uk/property_Astunning1bedroomapartment-TheTorch%2CDubaiMarina-1250Dhpersquarefoot_566490.html

Considering the construction stage of the building, AED1250 psf is not a bad price assuming it sells for close to that amount. The seller may have paid less than AED800 psf. If I was purely a short term speculator I would be happy with that return when considered along with the current AED/£ value.

I don't think many Torch apartments would have changed hands for more than AED1400-AED1500 even at the peak so they haven't fallen far (again assuming it sells for that price).

I remember not long ago that the Torch used to be one of the cheapest properties in the Marina, I wonder who holds that crown now?

We may be reading too much into this single property listing but it would be interesting to know what price SP are pricing their resales.

Exchange rate benefits i would imagine.

A 950 sf 1 bed would change like this for a UK invester selling up and repatriating money to UK

http://i43.tinypic.com/2pous1x.jpg

selling now at 1250 psf is basicaly the same as selling at 1800 psf six months ago.

What floor are we on now must be 49 ish.

^^ Looks good until you give 40% to Mr Darling :bash:

You are probably right! When the Torch gets handed over in September:ohno: all the tenants will vacate their lets in JBR, Marina promenade Jewels etc and move to the Torch. Torch has much better location next to marina phase 1.

Apartments on the marina island close to the beach and JBR Walk are less desirable. People who invested in the Point made a big mistake.

Not quite sure why The POINT is a bad investment or any different to The Jewels they are both a quick nip across the road and your at the beach ? Also brilliant views across the Marina -please explain TB or are you just being sarcastic ?

Also TT at 1250 aed psf is good sell at 5.5 aed to £1 but who the hell wants to take money to UK and give it to those two scots muggers in charge
(i,m in no way being rascist being fellow a "celt" myself !)

I notice there is a distress sale in the Torch available today - 1 bed at only 1250 psf!

Hardly a distress sale Steve, bit on the expensive side really when you can move into Oceanic tomorrow full marina view, you seen my pictures from it for 1074psf. Great view of your tallest block.

^^Where are these photos?

Can you please PM the details of this unit, I nearly bought there for AED1500/sqft, one of thr front ones. Thanks to the man with the Camera, I did not:cheers:

Not quite sure why The POINT is a bad investment or any different to The Jewels they are both a quick nip across the road and your at the beach ? Also brilliant views across the Marina -please explain TB or are you just being sarcastic ?

Also TT at 1250 aed psf is good sell at 5.5 aed to £1 but who the hell wants to take money to UK and give it to those two scots muggers in charge
(i,m in no way being rascist being fellow a "celt" myself !)

Are you the only one who didn't get the sarcasm? Re read the salient points a few times, it will all become clear:)

As for torch at 1250AED/ft2 that is no distress sale. Distress sales are now at negative premiums everywhere.

^^Where are these photos?

Can you please PM the details of this unit, I nearly bought there for AED1500/sqft, one of thr front ones. Thanks to the man with the Camera, I did not:cheers:


TP Thread post 1049 first 9 pics. Infinity post 1593 2 pics and 1596 3 pics all taken from the appt last week.

I notice there is a distress sale in the Torch available today - 1 bed at only 1250 psf!

nobody will pay for 1250 for this at the moment.just try to sell for 900 ,will you have any phone calls ? I doubt.

Off plan is totally dead in Dubai specially if the completion date still 2-3 years away, what I heard , buyers just pay the original price everywhere.

^^Where are these photos?

Can you please PM the details of this unit, I nearly bought there for AED1500/sqft, one of thr front ones. Thanks to the man with the Camera, I did not:cheers:

Gulfnews, some adverts for 1.8-1.9 million

You can lower the price as much as you want, currently there are simply no takers. Uncompleted appartments are practically dead capital. There is no confidence in the market, the developer could easily go bankrupt etc.

^^^^^^You is such a miserable fuck, is life really so bad for you? Get a grip.:ohno:

What is your problem? I am not offencing anybody, I am just talking about the present situation, nothing else.

nobody will pay for 1250 for this at the moment.just try to sell for 900 ,will you have any phone calls ? I doubt.

Off plan is totally dead in Dubai specially if the completion date still 2-3 years away, what I heard , buyers just pay the original price everywhere.

Select Property are buying back Torch apartments on LPP for 1200 psf. Just return it to get the equivalent of 1200 psf (due to interest already paid returned also).

Select Property are buying back Torch apartments on LPP for 1200 psf. Just return it to get the equivalent of 1200 psf (due to interest already paid returned also).

By buying them back SP will sell these towards end of the year when the tower is nearly fully up and 1500 aed psf min.

Select Property are buying back Torch apartments on LPP for 1200 psf. Just return it to get the equivalent of 1200 psf (due to interest already paid returned also).

I would give back them and would rather buy another one for 900-1000 dhs which will be ready before than The Torch :)

29/January/2009

The Torch

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/9854/imresolt011hg5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2664/imresolt034fd0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8826/imresolt012bl7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/7971/imresolt056vg5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8114/imresolt065ys3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1928/imresolt071uu1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/5319/imresolt066kd1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Imre Whats available in the Marina between 900-1000 dhs psf that will be complete before the Torch and in decent location ?

Marinascape for 1000 is ok?:)

^^ but any finance available for that? Main reason I went for Torch is developer's finance.

NBAD is asking for 40% downpayment for completed properties, however based on the original prices, not based on theoretical "market" prices. Intererst rate currently 7.7%. They do not finance off-plan or incompleted properties anymore.
Since many prices have dropped to the original prices that could be a chance.

Would a http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/History/Japan/03/singer/koni2.jpg fit in one of the corner balconies farther up?

NBAD is asking for 40% downpayment for completed properties, however based on the original prices, not based on theoretical "market" prices. Intererst rate currently 7.7%. They do not finance off-plan or incompleted properties anymore.
Since many prices have dropped to the original prices that could be a chance.

So hand back the Torch, pay the 40% deposit on marinascape at 1000psf and take finance for the 60%. Not bad idea.

So hand back the Torch, pay the 40% deposit on marinascape at 1000psf and take finance for the 60%. Not bad idea.

Just hold on tight to the sun-lounger on the swimming pool. :runaway:

52 ?

What floor, anyone?

Just hold on tight to the sun-longer on the swimming pool. :runaway:

Altin is that all you can come up with, try harder. At least you would be getting exactly wwhat you see and no risk of it never happening. MS is a great deal at 1000 to1100 psf today and you ALL know it.

Altin is that all you can come up with, try harder. At least you would be getting exactly wwhat you see and no risk of it never happening. MS is a great deal at 1000 to1100 psf today and you ALL know it.

Yes that's all I could come up with.

But it has absolutely nothing to do with what you just said. It's just an inside joke (carried on from another thread, mind you) between me, Steve and ... Steve knows who.

^^

Das ist meine sunlounger

Just hold on tight to the sun-lounger on the swimming pool. :runaway:

Ja, ich muss ins Bett zu gehen früh, um schneller als Florian. :)

is there any news or update on the letter from SG/SP?

btw. theyre now on floor 49

This letter is a smoke screen delaying tactic. It wont have anything in it that we dont already know.

Since when do developers have to get RERA approval to confirm what already exists in an SPA?
Since when does RERA actually do anything except announce what they intend to do?

It basically boils down to someone not having the balls to make a decision on what bank rate to link compensation payments to, as it sets a legal precident for everyone to whom compensation becomes available,which could last for a few years.

Current rates.
3 MONTH EIBOR = 3.618%
3 MONTH £ LIBOR = 2.201%
3 MONTH $ LIBOR = 1.159

Big difference on Big numbers.

In November £ LIBOR was 5.776%, and $ LIBOR was 2.858%

In 6 months time they could be anywhere and basicaly nobody wants to decide which rate to use as it could go the wrong way which ever rate they pick.

Place your bets, Place your bets.

Would a http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/History/Japan/03/singer/koni2.jpg fit in one of the corner balconies farther up?

You should not make fun of Mackie, he is fed up enough as it is !! I really can't talk as it is not a to far away from me either!!

is there any news or update on the letter from SG/SP?

btw. theyre now on floor 49

Hi Joannides

I spoke with them yesterday and they said the letters are going out at the weekend, but declined to comment further when pressed for content information. They were also undecided as to whether the letter was coming directly from the Developer, or from the Handforth sales blurb opertion.

Regards

The Torch

You should not make fun of Mackie, he is fed up enough as it is !! I really can't talk as it is not a to far away from me either!!

Yes, stop picking on me you skinny B****ds. I was very thin once and it was miserable........... Fat and Proud :lol::lol::banana::banana:

Select Property are buying back Torch apartments on LPP for 1200 psf. Just return it to get the equivalent of 1200 psf (due to interest already paid returned also).

What? Where? How? Mine is available

Yes, stop picking on me you skinny B****ds. I was very thin once and it was miserable........... Fat and Proud :lol::lol::banana::banana:



You need to stand up for yourself. I was in Timeplace the other week and there was a notice in the lift;

Capacity 12 persons or Mackie + 1.

:laugh:

This letter is a smoke screen delaying tactic. It wont have anything in it that we dont already know.

Since when do developers have to get RERA approval to confirm what already exists in an SPA?
Since when does RERA actually do anything except announce what they intend to do?

It basically boils down to someone not having the balls to make a decision on what bank rate to link compensation payments to, as it sets a legal precident for everyone to whom compensation becomes available,which could last for a few years.

Current rates.
3 MONTH EIBOR = 3.618%
3 MONTH £ LIBOR = 2.201%
3 MONTH $ LIBOR = 1.159

Big difference on Big numbers.

In November £ LIBOR was 5.776%, and $ LIBOR was 2.858%

In 6 months time they could be anywhere and basicaly nobody wants to decide which rate to use as it could go the wrong way which ever rate they pick.

Place your bets, Place your bets.

SP told me compensation will be paid towards time of completion. I guess this is when LIBOR will be -1%

You need to stand up for yourself. I was in Timeplace the other week and there was a notice in the lift;

Capacity 12 persons or Mackie + 1.

:laugh:

Don't know why but Mackie's avatar always reminded me of this (http://images.coveralia.com/audio/e/Eric_Clapton-Time_Pieces-Frontal.jpg)

Are you the only one who didn't get the sarcasm? Re read the salient points a few times, it will all become clear:)

As for torch at 1250AED/ft2 that is no distress sale. Distress sales are now at negative premiums everywhere.
Youre right I missed the sarcasm there
Also where are these negative premiums in the marina ? I'd like to know

is there any news or update on the letter from SG/SP?


I emailed Giles on Tues chasing an update and he called me back yesterday. The letter should have reached them in the UK in final form today (Thurs), to be sent out Thurs or Fri.

Now that the Torch has been seen on TV tonight, the sqft must have gone up by AED50/sqft at least :lol:

Now that the Torch has been seen on TV tonight, the sqft must have gone up by AED50/sqft at least :lol:

LOL, it was my first opportunity to check up on the build quality since I saw the build last. Positive programme which was nice.

LOL, it was my first opportunity to check up on the build quality since I saw the build last. Positive programme which was nice.
Very POSITIVE programme just wish i could live there now !! and give two fingers to UK

Filmed in sept, lot gone on since. Glad they didnt film it this week. Eddie Mitchell the George Clooney look alike Piers interviewed at The Burj is now a bankrupt oweing serious bananas. Like too many so called investors, "champange thoughts and lemonade money" well only dreamers can dream....

I enjoyed the programme, lot of shots with TT in the background and one shot from above of work going on at TT. I'm glad it was filmed in September and not now though.

Filmed in sept, lot gone on since. Glad they didnt film it this week. Eddie Mitchell the George Clooney look alike Piers interviewed at The Burj is now a bankrupt oweing serious bananas. Like too many so called investors, "champange thoughts and lemonade money" well only dreamers can dream....

Ouch and the guy is/was a gold member of Burj Al Arab. My heart bleeds for his personal butler of 6 years. :bash:

Filmed in sept, lot gone on since. Glad they didnt film it this week. Eddie Mitchell the George Clooney look alike Piers interviewed at The Burj is now a bankrupt oweing serious bananas. Like too many so called investors, "champange thoughts and lemonade money" well only dreamers can dream....

I watched the program with a little aprehension but it went well. Absolute cracking overhead zoom shot of the Torch.

Thing I remember was the guy talking about PJ garden villa prices at AED15M, he will be hiding behind the sofa now they are on Alineah.com for AED6M four months later.

I watched the program with a little aprehension but it went well. Absolute cracking overhead zoom shot of the Torch.

Thing I remember was the guy talking about PJ garden villa prices at AED15M, he will be hiding behind the sofa now they are on Alineah.com for AED6M four months later.

What did everyone make of the new ruling by HRH about not allowing anyone but close family to share your property - does this affect our rental opportunities - assuming that we finally complete?

Have I misunderstood that comment on the TV programme?

I think that only applies to villas.

Filmed in sept, lot gone on since. Glad they didnt film it this week. Eddie Mitchell the George Clooney look alike Piers interviewed at The Burj is now a bankrupt oweing serious bananas. Like too many so called investors, "champange thoughts and lemonade money" well only dreamers can dream....I thought that too !!

Filmed in sept, lot gone on since. Glad they didnt film it this week. Eddie Mitchell the George Clooney look alike Piers interviewed at The Burj is now a bankrupt oweing serious bananas. Like too many so called investors, "champange thoughts and lemonade money" well only dreamers can dream....

"Champagne thoughts lemonade money" I like that; - very good!!

Really enjoyed the programme; - it could have gone another way and it didn't! The cynic in me wonders just who had editorial control - and how much they paid for it!

It was great for Dubai, - and shot in the arm for the doubters (like me!).

Did anybody record it? I actually did not see it so would greatly appreciate greatly a copy from someone.

itv have a thing called i player to watch old stuff Try that.

"Champagne thoughts lemonade money" I like that; - very good!!

Really enjoyed the programme; - it could have gone another way and it didn't! The cynic in me wonders just who had editorial control - and how much they paid for it!

It was great for Dubai, - and shot in the arm for the doubters (like me!).

I also enjoyed it through my rose tinted glasses. Go Dubai. :banana:

Now that the Torch has been seen on TV tonight, the sqft must have gone up by AED50/sqft at least :lol:

I watched the program with a little aprehension but it went well. Absolute cracking overhead zoom shot of the Torch.

It was great to see that shot of the Torch like that. Obviously the program was focusing on quality developments like Burj Al Arab, Burj Dubai, Palm Villas, and the Torch.

Did you all see that all of the Dubai Marina filming was located at the Phase 1 Tallest Block end. This is testament to the end that will define the Marina in years to come.

I doubt the film crew could stand the smell at the "other end". :)

Why were you taking your lunch there.:lol:

Did anybody record it? I actually did not see it so would greatly appreciate greatly a copy from someone.


Someones put it on www.youtube.com- just put in 'dubai' in the search :)

3bKaj5QKIRE

Torch shot is at 1m 16sec :)

Allabar is the MAN !! Hope he can deliver this time around ?

Thank you! Guys. Have seen it now. Awesome!

I think that only applies to villas.

Thank you Steve.

I did a bit of investigating on this and it appears this may help with 1 bed apartment sales, or drive workers back home. They have to live somewhere I guess?

There is some talk of this rule being extended to apartments I see around on the Internet, but I guess this won't really affect us much.

Regards

The Torch

By the time the Torch apartments are ready to rent out Dubai will be offering all giro collecting single mothers from Luton to Liverpool the prospect of permanent residency, and a wealth of state benefits as long as they come and live in Dubai and fill up all those empty appartment blocks.

I wonder if the UK government will pay income support to a UAE address like they pay child benefit to Polish mothers who have children by English fathers but move back home to Poland ?

By the time the Torch apartments are ready to rent out Dubai will be offering all giro collecting single mothers from Luton to Liverpool the prospect of permanent residency, and a wealth of state benefits as long as they come and live in Dubai and fill up all those empty appartment blocks.

I wonder if the UK government will pay income support to a UAE address like they pay child benefit to Polish mothers who have children by English fathers but move back home to Poland ?


are you always this miserable and negative or is it the sun is too hot?

It was great to see that shot of the Torch like that. Obviously the program was focusing on quality developments like Burj Al Arab, Burj Dubai, Palm Villas, and the Torch.:lol:

Did you all see that all of the Dubai Marina filming was located at the Phase 1 Tallest Block end. :ohno:. This is testament to the end that will define the Marina in years to come.

I doubt the film crew could stand the smell at the "other end". :)

Now that all the histeria has calmed down, let me point out how balanced and unbiased your statement was(not).

The first marina scene was over the motor yacht club and Marina Promenade, this scene was also used in the trailers for the program. There was also a great shot of the Jewels and Dorrabay, but I did not bring it up, instead I chose to praise the Torch because some like to paint me as someone who is always negative about DS/SP etc. It looks like you see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear and write what promotes you and your investments not what is honest or fact.

Here is a screen shot taken from the program of my little beauties;

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/1208/p1010005vn6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

"This is testament to the end that will define the Marina in years to come."

I disagree with this coment simply because I don't think we will ever see a boat moored up outside The Torch, Marina Pinnacle, Marina Crown, 23 Marina or any other tallest block building that borrows the name "marina".

Oh and that smell you were refering to, was that the smell of rental cash flowing into that end?.:D

Now that all the histeria has calmed down, let me point out how balanced and unbiased your statement was(not).

Mmmmmmmm Pot, Kettle.........

I disagree with this coment simply because I don't think we will ever see a boat moored up outside The Torch,
http://i41.tinypic.com/2i0vv4z.jpg

No your right, It will be a real eyesore up at this end.

I guess it will always be a subjective and emotive subject when discussing which end of the Marina is the best. In a way it's a bit futile really, kind of like how the eurovision song contest is to music, as we all have different tastes.

I am happy that i will have a place next to Emirates Harbour hotel, Mina Seyahi beach club, Bar 44, The Point, Phase 1 cafe's, Marina arcade (tipped to be filled with upmarket boutique type shops), and a 10 min walk to the metro. Pretty much everything that I need really.

I'm sure you are also happy with your location too. Power plant close by, de-salination plant, maybe a sewerage treatment plant coming soon, a bus stop, Did i miss anything?

So I guess we are both happy. :okay:

A bit like you living in Scotland, and me living in London. Not many English people move to Scotland, but London is full of Jocks telling us how beautifull Scotland is. Each to their own i suppose.
I just wish they all loved it enough to go back home. Forgive me I digress........

^^:cheers:

Curious comment about where the boats are moored TB. I'm guessing you haven't been allowed up to the posh end for a look lately?

... and yes you've managed to find a still in order to make your argument but we all saw it and the shots of the marina very much concentrated on Phase 1 and the Tallest block.

Anjam has already blown you out on the rental income bluff! I'm not sure the smell down that end has anything to do with Power Plants, Sewerage works etc. - I think it might be the smell of some well rotted bovine excretia of the highland variety!

A bit like you living in Scotland, and me living in London. Not many English people move to Scotland, but London is full of Jocks telling us how beautifull Scotland is. Each to their own i suppose.
I just wish they all loved it enough to go back home. Forgive me I digress........

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


Anjam has already blown you out on the rental income bluff! I'm not sure the smell down that end has anything to do with Power Plants, Sewerage works etc. - I think it might be the smell of some well rotted bovine excretia of the highland variety!


:hilarious :hilarious :hilarious :hilarious :hilarious :hilarious :hilarious :hilarious

Fantastic

08/1/09

views from 36th Floors of the torch Tower


http://i42.tinypic.com/b9fw38.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2z4zlmp.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/2eyxuo0.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/14tsmxz.jpg

Great shots Bizzy. How did you get in there? :cheers:

welcome back amigo:applause:

http://i44.tinypic.com/14tsmxz.jpg

I'm curious to hear Naz's opinion on this pic.

^^ I think his sea view was in the other direction :dunno:

Welcome back Morris:)

^^ I think his sea view was in the other direction :dunno:
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

08/1/09

views from 36th Floors of the torch Tower


http://i42.tinypic.com/b9fw38.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2z4zlmp.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/2eyxuo0.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/14tsmxz.jpg
Wow thanks Bizzy - Cant wait to see the views from the top when they hand over -- La Reve won,t be in the way then and the Marina Views will be fantastic --Bar44 eat your heart out
Yes and how DID you get those pics ? or are you on the inside at SP
=== LOL

I'm curious to hear Naz's opinion on this pic.

Well, this was my choice of view way back in 2005. So it was an excellent guess.

Great :)

This is the view from the one for sale on the 36th floor for 1.76m. He must have got a viewing.

Steve, Do you know if these pics. taken from the two bed 012 snd 03 Units or one bed 011 and 04 units??

I'm assuming that except for the last one they are taken from 05/06 two beds on that floor. The view acoss Phase 1 could also have been taken from an 04 I would think. It looks as though the last one would have been taken from the 08 or 01 unit on that floor.

What do people think?

Letters have been sent this weekend on behalf of the developer to all purchasers in The Torch who have the original completion date. The letter attempts to explain some of the causes of the delays to the project and brings purchasers up to date with current progress of construction, including internal works. It goes on to set out the anticipated milestones for the reminder of this year which should see the first purchasers inspecting their properties in September. Completion of the building is recalculated to be January 2010.
Having challenged some of the assumptions that form this latest projection it does seem to be achievable on paper, although it would seem to rely on each subsequent stage of construction going entirely according to plan and I am sure most purchasers will have their own ideas about appropriate contingency given the history of this and many comparable projects in the vacinity. There is a wide range of environmental factors that can intervene in the best laid plans, especially with a project of this scale where, for example, high winds could make crane work unsafe and casting of a single floor could increase from 6 days to 8 or 9 days. We will continue to monitor actual progress against target, with the aim of providing more detailed and reliable updates to help purchasers who are relying on rental income in particular to plan their finances in the run-in to completion.
Having spent many hours discussing inspection and handover procedures with Select Group's director of asset management, we would anticipate a period of roughly six months to work through the various stages. If inspections do indeed commence in September, this could mean occupation (or rental income) for some purchasers in the first half of 2010, although I would recommend that this horizon is still too far away to make any accurate predictions.
Although the reasons for the delays described in the letter are, on further analysis and having consulted with a panel of professional advisors, largely beyond the control of the developer and certainly provide for allowable extensions in the contract with the constructor, the developer is fully aware of the expectation of most purchasers to be compensated for these delays and therefore makes an offer to offset penalties calculated by reference to the contract for some of the period of the delay against payments due at completion.
Select Property is working on the next round of its routine construction updates which will incorporate a lot of the feedback we have had from speaking to purchasers over the turbulent last few months, some of whom are contributors to this forum.

In relation to the registration of ownership on the Dubai Land Departments new interim register, I know many purchasers are frustrated with the time this is taking - as is Select Group, having reacted promptly to the publication of the law last year under threat of sanctions for failing to do so. We understand that that registrations are taking place although more slowly than expected as the 'bulk registration' process originally contemplated is not fully operational on the OQOOD registration system, meaning that each unit has to be registered manually. The developer is committed to completing this process in line with its original instructions and will persevere under the challenging conditions. We hope that purchasers who paid their share of the registration fees when originally asked to do will share the same level of patience. Having been through the process of title registration on behalf of our customers on a previous project, we know how long it can take to receive official confirmation from the Land Department that the process is complete, especially with the dynamic application of published procedures. We will therefore be cautious when setting expectations this time round as well.

Very optimistic people you are.

Wonderful

So to summarize, occupation won't be until at least end of 2010 in reality. Compensation won't be paid until handover and only for a short period of time, the rest will be claimed as force majeure.

So 2 years more payments without rental income or compensation to make for everyone on the LPP.

Plan B, Mistermark.


is that Marinascape 2 bed for 1000psf still available...

.....................

http://i39.tinypic.com/33ehpg3.jpg

I would have thought that this is the ultimate indicator of the basic dishonesty of this crowd (well it is for me!). Like everyone else I had a letter stating that compensation will be paid from 01 January 2009 and that the delays (at least up to the point of writing the letter one presumes) do not constitute Force Majeure.

To be honest I'd have been happier if they'd taken the Force Majeure route and refused to pay it from the outset. I suppose the pholosophy was - "promise to pay it and take the heat off for a few months - and then renege when it really becomes an issue in Jan 2009. That way we'll at least enjoy several relatively heat free[I] months in 2008. I used to do the same when I did exams - I'd tell my parents it went well even when it went badly knowing that they'd then be perfectly happy until the results dropped through the letterbox. At that point I'd have to face the music - but having enjoyed a blissfully peaceful Summer holiday!

You wait, this will now drag on and on up until completion with SP refsuing to detail the amount of any compensation which they [I]are prepared to pay and when completion comes you'll get a couple of thousand AED knocked off and told to take it or leave it ("Settle now or you don't get your keys" I expect). By then they'll also have interest rate history so they'll be able to decide how to doctor the figures with no possibility that the rate could turn against them - as is the situation now!

A bunch of utter crooks!

I'm dreading the pictures of the completed show apartments. No doubt they'll be witheld for some time yet; - no point in attracting more flack by revealing the lies about "cutting edge European interior design until they absolutely have to is there! The unfinished photos were pretty awful (imho!) and I'm already resigned to having to replace kitchen and bathrooms!

Agree with you fully, Yousuf:-(

It goes on to set out the anticipated milestones for the reminder of this year which should see the first purchasers inspecting their properties in September. Completion of the building is recalculated to be January 2010.
Having challenged some of the assumptions that form this latest projection it does seem to be achievable on paper, although it would seem to rely on each subsequent stage of construction going entirely according to plan and I am sure most purchasers will have their own ideas about appropriate contingency given the history of this and many comparable projects in the vacinity.

Completion date of Jan 2010 seems achievable on paper - Now that's much better than saying completion date is Jan 2010. :lol: . In reality as opposed to on paper, add 1 -1.5year to that.

So to summarize, occupation won't be until at least end of 2010 in reality. Compensation won't be paid until handover and only for a short period of time, the rest will be claimed as force majeure.

So 2 years more payments without rental income or compensation to make for everyone on the LPP.

Plan B, Mistermark.


is that Marinascape 2 bed for 1000psf still available...

You can count me in on plan B - the operative word here is "SOME", as mackie quite rightly observed and was exactly what I picked up immediately. This is a "statement of intent" to breach contractual obligations, not just from a delay in compensation payments, but also the actual amount paid, which forces us to seek legal action against them. I don't think we have a choice in the matter now.

on further analysis and having consulted with a panel of professional advisors, largely beyond the control of the developer and certainly provide for allowable extensions in the contract with the constructor

Force majeure definition

...any event allowing the contractor carrying out the Development Works an extension of time under the relevant building contract(s)

We will need a fuil list of these events to submit to our lawyers in conjunction with our diary of events.

If inspections do indeed commence in September, this could mean occupation (or rental income) for some purchasers in the first half of 2010, although I would recommend that this horizon is still too far away to make any accurate predictions.

Translation: don't count on getting any rental income before the second half of 2010. At the earliest.


the developer is fully aware of the expectation of most purchasers to be compensated for these delays and therefore makes an offer to offset penalties calculated by reference to the contract for some of the period of the delay against payments due at completion.

I guess we'll have to wait to see the letters to get the detail, but the word 'some' concerns me, as does the phrase 'payments due at completion'. Putting the two together, it looks suspiciously as if the developer hopes to pay less than even the contractual compensation and plans to deduct whatever compensation it's willing to pay against monies due on completion, which could either mean completion in Select-speak (Jan 2010) or true completion (which I equate with handover - second half of 2010).

Sorry Giles, but if this is where this is heading I'm happy to have a quick conversation with you about a sensible compromise but if this is all that's on the table I'm throwing a few quid into the hat with anyone else here that wants to go legal.

Completion date of Jan 2010 seems achievable on paper - Now that's much better than saying completion date is Jan 2010. :lol: . In reality as opposed to on paper, add 1 -1.5year to that.

Revising my estimates to Jan 2011 Latest !

(helps me save up for the last installment !)

for example, high winds could make crane work unsafe and casting of a single floor could increase from 6 days to 8 or 9 days.

Is this their reasoning for claiming force majeure :lol:

High winds what a load of b.....ks. Its alot worse 4 times higher at 160 floors and the show still goes on. Is there not a clause in TT contract to give them back and take the exchange rate?

DS/SP/SG Rock :)

Great stuff :)

There are 40 owners list in the Torch group, but some have several units. Probably about 35 there in total.

I think there will be a rush on cheap Marinascape apartments in the next 30 days.

Most in that group appear to want to return their units if things get worse in Dubai.


Anyone care to clarify 15.3, termination of contract ? If the contact is terminated by Select what happens to money paid so far?

Lovely :)

Letters have been sent this weekend on behalf of the developer to all purchasers in The Torch who have the original completion date. The letter attempts to explain some of the causes of the delays to the project and brings purchasers up to date with current progress of construction, including internal works. It goes on to set out the anticipated milestones for the reminder of this year which should see the first purchasers inspecting their properties in September. Completion of the building is recalculated to be January 2010.
Having challenged some of the assumptions that form this latest projection it does seem to be achievable on paper, although it would seem to rely on each subsequent stage of construction going entirely according to plan and I am sure most purchasers will have their own ideas about appropriate contingency given the history of this and many comparable projects in the vacinity. There is a wide range of environmental factors that can intervene in the best laid plans, especially with a project of this scale where, for example, high winds could make crane work unsafe and casting of a single floor could increase from 6 days to 8 or 9 days. We will continue to monitor actual progress against target, with the aim of providing more detailed and reliable updates to help purchasers who are relying on rental income in particular to plan their finances in the run-in to completion.
Having spent many hours discussing inspection and handover procedures with Select Group's director of asset management, we would anticipate a period of roughly six months to work through the various stages. If inspections do indeed commence in September, this could mean occupation (or rental income) for some purchasers in the first half of 2010, although I would recommend that this horizon is still too far away to make any accurate predictions.
Although the reasons for the delays described in the letter are, on further analysis and having consulted with a panel of professional advisors, largely beyond the control of the developer and certainly provide for allowable extensions in the contract with the constructor, the developer is fully aware of the expectation of most purchasers to be compensated for these delays and therefore makes an offer to offset penalties calculated by reference to the contract for some of the period of the delay against payments due at completion.
Select Property is working on the next round of its routine construction updates which will incorporate a lot of the feedback we have had from speaking to purchasers over the turbulent last few months, some of whom are contributors to this forum.

In relation to the registration of ownership on the Dubai Land Departments new interim register, I know many purchasers are frustrated with the time this is taking - as is Select Group, having reacted promptly to the publication of the law last year under threat of sanctions for failing to do so. We understand that that registrations are taking place although more slowly than expected as the 'bulk registration' process originally contemplated is not fully operational on the OQOOD registration system, meaning that each unit has to be registered manually. The developer is committed to completing this process in line with its original instructions and will persevere under the challenging conditions. We hope that purchasers who paid their share of the registration fees when originally asked to do will share the same level of patience. Having been through the process of title registration on behalf of our customers on a previous project, we know how long it can take to receive official confirmation from the Land Department that the process is complete, especially with the dynamic application of published procedures. We will therefore be cautious when setting expectations this time round as well.


They are taking the PISS when it says

" Although the reasons for the delays described in the letter are, on further analysis and having consulted with a panel of professional advisors, largely beyond the control of the developer and certainly provide for allowable extensions in the contract with the constructor, the developer is fully aware of the expectation of most purchasers to be compensated for these delays and therefore makes an offer to offset penalties calculated by reference to the contract for some of the period of the delay against payments due at completion.

In other words they give us "SOME" of the compensation. I want to know NOW how much will i get. Some could mean 0.01-10,000.

DS/SP/SG Rock :)

I am sure True Blue will donate a few Scottish pounds to the fund:lol::lol:

^^:lol::rofl:

For 2 years I have warned you all that completion was 2011 earliest and that there would be no compensation, what a slating I took for my free advise. Now you want me to pay towards your legal expenses, my sides are spliting:lol:

Where is High " I am always right" Times, he is very quite :dunno:

The letter has arrived, complete with claim of Force Majeure as expected.

Summarised:

1) Overall completion date moved back to Jan 2010.

2) Though they claim they do not have to pay any compensation as a result of force majeure, they are making an offer of a "gesture of goodwill" of LIBOR + 1% on all payments made on or before 30th June 2009, but only on interest accrued during the period from 30th June 2009 to January 1st 2010 (no day specified in Jan, but think we can assume 1st!).

3) This payment they have said will only be paid at completion, through adjustment of final payment, not on an ongoing basis.

4) Acceptance of the offer will be treated as a resolution of any issues that may arise out of the delays, I guess even if the build continues to be delayed up to 2011.

I guess there are three paths to take Ladies and Gentlemen;

1) Accept the offer and allow the build to continue to conclusion, giving us the highest likelyhood of completion at some stage.

2) Counter claim through negotiation to try to gain a more acceptable level of compensation.

3) Outright reject the claim of FM and the reasoning behind it and risk taking the building and project down.

My personal view as a businessman, used to dealing with contracts:

a) On the one hand 6 month interest compensation in no way compensates for the delays (and possible further delays), we all know that, however, not all delays are of their making (according to the letter) of TSL, hence not all the blame can be laid at their doorstep and some is down to our "off plan risk" of outside influences.

b) neither do we want to risk the project dying, as the end goal benefits of a completed project and apartments, far outweigh any further likely compensation we could gain versus increased risk of closing the project and losing everything, by fighting this stance.

c) even if we won a case against FM, that does not mean we would win further compensation. More likely is that the string of companies behind the project would snap during this economy, the build would stop and nobody would be available for comment. We would likely lose everything.

I know feelings are going to run high over the next few days, however, we need to think very carefully before reacting to this, given they have now formally claimed FM. This is now a serious claim and one I am sure they would not have adopted lightly and without good reason. Their lawyers will have had to advise on this and decide whether it would stick and returned with an agreement that it would.

Regards

The Torch

I think we would be mad to accept - and give away our rights for a poxy 'goodwill' gesture...

Select Property are buying back Torch apartments on LPP for 1200 psf. Just return it to get the equivalent of 1200 psf (due to interest already paid returned also).

this is true? They are buying buy back for 1200?

Where is High " I am always right" Times, he is very quite :dunno:

I'm still here big guy.

Just sitting back and listening to the hysteria for a bit and contemplating the right way forward.

Were not all Turkeys. :wink2:

The letter has arrived, complete with claim of Force Majeure as expected.

Summarised:

1) Overall completion date moved back to Jan 2010.

2) Though they claim they do not have to pay any compensation as a result of force majeure, they are making an offer of a "gesture of goodwill" of LIBOR + 1% on all payments made on or before 30th June 2009, but only on interest accrued during the period from 30th June 2009 to January 1st 2010 (no day specified in Jan, but think we can assume 1st!).

3) This payment they have said will only be paid at completion, through adjustment of final payment, not on an ongoing basis.

4) Acceptance of the offer will be treated as a resolution of any issues that may arise out of the delays, I guess even if the build continues to be delayed up to 2011.

I guess there are three paths to take Ladies and Gentlemen;

1) Accept the offer and allow the build to continue to conclusion, giving us the highest likelyhood of completion at some stage.

2) Counter claim through negotiation to try to gain a more acceptable level of compensation.

3) Outright reject the claim of FM and the reasoning behind it and risk taking the building and project down.

My personal view as a businessman, used to dealing with contracts:

a) On the one hand 6 month interest compensation in no way compensates for the delays (and possible further delays), we all know that, however, not all delays are of their making (according to the letter) of TSL, hence not all the blame can be laid at their doorstep and some is down to our "off plan risk" of outside influences.

b) neither do we want to risk the project dying, as the end goal benefits of a completed project and apartments, far outweigh any further likely compensation we could gain versus increased risk of closing the project and losing everything, by fighting this stance.

c) even if we won a case against FM, that does not mean we would win further compensation. More likely is that the string of companies behind the project would snap during this economy, the build would stop and nobody would be available for comment. We would likely lose everything.

I know feelings are going to run high over the next few days, however, we need to think very carefully before reacting to this, given they have now formally claimed FM. This is now a serious claim and one I am sure they would not have adopted lightly and without good reason. Their lawyers will have had to advise on this and decide whether it would stick and returned with an agreement that it would.

Regards

The Torch

The letter states that interest will accrue ONLY for 6 months, between June 09 and January 2010. So only six months interest of total will be paid and at the LIBOR rate of those date?

example.

For LPP, lets say AED 700,000 paid

Interest at LIBOR + 1%. Maybe 2.5%

6 months interest at 2.5% of AED 700,000 = AED 8,750 total compensation as a gesture of good will.

Have I got that wrong!?

^^ Steve there is no point doing the sums. I personally am rejecting the compansation offer in the current form.

I have posted a message regarding the way forward on the Torch Group. Please read and respond at your earliest.

I am an owner of a Marina View 2 bed on a 60+ floor and I have been reading this blog for some time. From my discussions with SP I understand that many people are selling properties and radically reduced prices as they are unable to meet their repayment schedules. The other view of this unfortunate situation is that there is still interest in property from investors in Dubai and in particular the torch. The same phenominum is taking place in UK and Ireland where investors are seeing great value top be had through the misfortunes of others.

My views on the penalty situation for the delay in construction is two fold:
The first view is that yes the property is delayed and penalties should be applied - however what the causes are would have to be investigated to see whether the developer had reasonable control over them and whether force majure was declaired officially as per generally accepted contract law

The second view is that the situation is accepted for what it is. That the investment made should either be protected by being understanding and compromising, or, that an exit is made from the business and the resulting loss/profit is taken professionally.

I for one entered this business with both eyes open - I did a risk analysis and factored that into my return plans. If anyone went into this investment assuming that it woul d ideal they were simply foolish.

I want to see a completed Torch where I will be able to maximize potential return.

thats my piece . . . .

I am an owner of a Marina View 2 bed on a 60+ floor and I have been reading this blog for some time. From my discussions with SP I understand that many people are selling properties and radically reduced prices as they are unable to meet their repayment schedules. The other view of this unfortunate situation is that there is still interest in property from investors in Dubai and in particular the torch. The same phenominum is taking place in UK and Ireland where investors are seeing great value top be had through the misfortunes of others.

My views on the penalty situation for the delay in construction is two fold:
The first view is that yes the property is delayed and penalties should be applied - however what the causes are would have to be investigated to see whether the developer had reasonable control over them and whether force majure was declaired officially as per generally accepted contract law

The second view is that the situation is accepted for what it is. That the investment made should either be protected by being understanding and compromising, or, that an exit is made from the business and the resulting loss/profit is taken professionally.

I for one entered this business with both eyes open - I did a risk analysis and factored that into my return plans. If anyone went into this investment assuming that it woul d ideal they were simply foolish.

I want to see a completed Torch where I will be able to maximize potential return.

thats my piece . . . .

one thing you seem to be overlooking is the trust issue between investor and developer and the continual ducking and diving.

is it 'foolish' to believe what is stipulated in a contract and then renaged on, despite follow-up confirmation that compensation was to be paid (assuming one was up to date with payments and that FM wouldnt be claimed).

is it 'foolish' to expect a building to be complete, even at the revised schedule of 2009 despite signing a contract mid 2005?

is it foolish that i didnt plan on it taking over 5 years when i was originally told it would be completed at the end of 2007?

i dont think so...

^^ Nice :cheers:

The letter states that interest will accrue ONLY for 6 months, between June 09 and January 2010. So only six months interest of total will be paid and at the LIBOR rate of those date?

example.

For LPP, lets say AED 700,000 paid

Interest at LIBOR + 1%. Maybe 2.5%

6 months interest at 2.5% of AED 700,000 = AED 8,750 total compensation as a gesture of good will.

Have I got that wrong!?

Nop, you have not got it wrong - that's exactly what is says :ohno:

^^This will not even cover Imre's beer bill :cheers:

It was always going to happen, the development is so late they simply would not be able to pay proper compensation and stay viable.

Damn, that is harsh - I feel sorry for you guys.

Buying a completed unit does seem like the smart move now.

DS/SP/SG Rock :)

^^This will not even cover Imre's beer bill :cheers:

I know ... and no beer money for Imre, means no more pictures!!

May be we are all just going to have to chip in for his beer allowance between now and 2011.

Projected Completion Milestones

Structure will be complete by 15th Jul 09


Is that physically possible? :nuts:

Life is great :)

^^ Since they are saying there will be no compensation only some drinks money as a good will gesture (so not to appear in bad faith), why are they still bullshitting about completion dates :nuts:

Nice :)

^^ Send your copy of this to RERA while your at it

http://i43.tinypic.com/2j5z11l.jpg

this is true? They are buying buy back for 1200?

If you are on the LPP and if you return your apartment and get all money paid to date returned then the net cash amount returned is the equivalent of selling at 1200psf.

However as now they claim force majeure I am not sure that this applies anymore and interest paid may not be returned. This needs to be checked.

If you are on the LPP and if you return your apartment and get all money paid to date returned then the net cash amount returned is the equivalent of selling at 1200psf.

However as now they claim force majeure I am not sure that this applies anymore and interest paid may not be returned. This needs to be checked.

You will need to write to the developer to request refund, they will then have to run your letter passed RERA to see if you have a claim.. they then will respond and have 50 days in total to respond. Now that FM has been claimed the answer will be a big fat NO.. (go away and leave us alone)

The next date is 30/06/09 in the contract where you can terminate even if they claim FM.. buyer will have no claims to damages or compensation costs etc, but I assume all monies paid to date back...

You will need to write to the developer to request refund, they will then have to run your letter passed RERA to see if you have a claim.. they then will respond and have 50 days in total to respond. Now that FM has been claimed the answer will be a big fat NO.. (go away and leave us alone)

The next date is 30/06/09 in the contract where you can terminate even if they claim FM.. buyer will have no claims to damages or compensation costs etc, but I assumed all monies back...

why do you assume all monies will be returned if the contract is terminated?

FORCE MAJEURE

Firstly we need a construction expert to translate what the “key issues” are as listed 1-7 on the Select Group letter. Whilst some are self explanatory some are building tech speak. We need to know precisely how each of the reasons caused “delays” and to what extent the delays were in respect of each reason.

To get the Letter Passed RERA, smart move completely outmaneuvered all of us

I dissagree, I think it is great (for us), that SG have gone to RERA to get this letter approved, as it is now official that they are trying to bend the rules to suit them, and they have been stupid enough to advise the regulator of their intentions. They now have limitted their claim of FM in writing to RERA, all we have to do is prove that their reasons dont add up. We know exactly what were fighting and they cant change their minds now as its been formaly approved by RERA (if indeed it has).

REBUTTAL

Using the forum and our own collective communication history with SG we can easily bring into question the legitimacy of an FM claim now that the precise reasons have been given. Many of the reasons given will all be date specific and the dates of these events can clearly be distinguished and aligned to progress accordingly. The biggest delay was from 2005 – 2007 where basically nothing happened. The argument at the time was relating to permits and I would imagine that reasons 1-4 were relevant to this period.

Where SG have F**ked up in my view is they know that we can clearly document the progress of the tower from the first day of groundwork to the current state of play. We can provide any 3rd party with clear evidence of what delays occurred and when.

As an example, we can clearly prove that the structural process of the tower has been fairly consistent at around 1 floor a week from circa floor 10, right up to the current floor.

The only delay being when the cock up was made on the mechanical floor that lost about a month.

Some of us have had written confirmations from the developers agent that force majeure will not be claimed, this being quite recent too. We also have a developers schedule posted to us all back last year that clearly showed that the developer was on track to complete by Sept 2009, (in their view).

By SG providing the letters of non intent regarding FM. Also producing recent build schedules stating completion to be Sept 2009. We have a clear and precise audit trail to use as a factual timeline of events.

SG would legally need to prove how the events they list 1-7 precisely impacted the progress of the build. What reasons, created what delays, and when. We would then have to prove that these facts are not correct, by using photographic and written evidence that we all have.

In esscence there has not been any significant delay in construction since the tower has been "out of the ground". FM is only now being manufactured to escape compensation payments as the financial climate bites harder.

It is fairly clear that SG are now into damage limitation.

It is totally pointless discussing anything with SP in the UK from now on, as they are effectively redundant in this process. All communication now needs to be made to; Mr Paul Brady, Director of Asset management in Dubai.

The choices for investors as I see them are as follows;

1- Begin handing back units to the developer as per contract
2- Fight the force majeure claim legally to be compensated as per the contract
3- Accept the good will gesture made by SG and move on

I’m sure not many will want to accept the third option.

If everyone goes for option 1 then in the current climate the developer may not exist for very long. They will go crying to RERA and will probably get away with delaying refunds until finances can be arranged in order not to “bust” the tower and give Dubai PLC another lighthouse to worry about which they do not need at the moment.

The second option in my view is winnable, but will be an expensive and lengthy process. The only people that win from litigation, is lawyers. This will take a long time, and have to go to the Dubai property courts which at best is a joke, and at worst a lottery.

I would imagine the court case would be dragged on for as long as possible by SG and will probably last longer than the build itself, hoping that the action will run out of steam, and/or money, and in the event that we get our units sometime in 2010 with a good will gesture thrown in paints SG in a good light to some degree (in their eyes). It must also be mentioned that it is feasible that a ruling in favour of SG could also attract an award for costs in their favour and trust me that wont be cheap.

Remember that court rulings seldom reflect “justice”, they only reflect “law” and which lawyers use the law more effectively.

MOVING FORWARD

I am prepared to go down route 2 as a group, if it is a closed group of investors who are all prepared to meet up in person, identify themselves formally, and implement a coherent strategy to move forward.

As we are all scattered around the country it would make sense to meet up in a hotel somewhere central for a morning or afternoon, and have a properly chaired meeting to discuss what we want to achieve and what budget is available for meeting our goals.

See my message on the Torch group regarding time frames, (unless you can counter and win the FM claim soon) after Jun 09 they can terminate your contract to get out of any claims against them. Also you can not return your apartment now until then.

So unless you can win the FM claim with RERA's approval soon you have no choice but to continue on and keep paying with no compensation.

If you are on the LPP and if you return your apartment and get all money paid to date returned then the net cash amount returned is the equivalent of selling at 1200psf.

However as now they claim force majeure I am not sure that this applies anymore and interest paid may not be returned. This needs to be checked.

SP are not offering this not sure where this story has come from.

^^ It's the contract, may not be in all of them.

Does anyone know if any other Developers have used Force Majeure in this manner before? I imagine in the current climate that this could set a very important precedent.

The developer is merely re-labelling the inherent commercial risks of operating in a new country i.e. law changes, planning delays, as Force Majeure.

Interesting to note that the developer of The Point has a 12 months of delay allowed in their contracts before compensation kicks in. So now the TT is coincidently aligned with them. Unfortunately the complex company structure will no doubt show both developers to be independent of one another.

This might help the anti force majeure claim. :dunno:

I have plenty other similar documents.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2aer01.jpg

ps. Zaki Marashli is Structural Manager for Khatib and Alami Consolidated Engineering Company.

This might help the anti force majeure claim. :dunno:

I have plenty other similar documents.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2aer01.jpg

ps. Zaki Marashli is Structural Manager for Khatib and Alami Consolidated Engineering Company.

Dubai Steve, how does it help? we also have some evidence direct from Khatib, I might post a sample.

Also I wonder if everyone is focussed on the relevance of non-Torch Select Ltd. communications, and their relevance or total lack of relevance in a Dubai court. Has anyone been communicating directly with Torch Select Ltd. over the last few years, as prescribed by scooby 3 years ago? Which individuals own Torch Select Ltd., and who are the directors?

A reliable (i.e. from a powerful Emirati family - his father is a Sheikh)
told me not to buy an apartment in this building as the owners/developers are not 'respectible' (his words, not mine)

Quote from the past

I was told the beneficiery of Torch Select wants to be anonymous. That is why all communication is 'on behalf of' other parties.

I was told the beneficiery of Torch Select wants to be anonymous. That is why all communication is 'on behalf of' other parties.

I think it's important to prove common ownership especially of Dubai Select in the U.K. and Torch Select Ltd. of the jebel ali free zone.

Who can find out?

Please find below, for your information, further details on the current and anticipated progress of the project:

Current Progress Achieved

Structure: Slabs: level 49 is cast and the Slip Form has reached level 52
External Cladding is at level 31
Block Works have reached level 37
Dry Walls: 1st fix: level 35 and 2nd fix: level 31
Plaster \ Paint are applied on level 31
Ceramic Works: level 25
Mechanical and Electrical Works: 1st fix: level 41 and 2nd fix: level 27


Projected Completion Milestones

Structure will be complete by 15th Jul 09
External Cladding, temporary power connection will be complete by 31st Aug 09
Basement and access will be complete by 10th Nov 09.
Owners’ orientation will commence in the following sequence:
1st group of customers: up to level 28 by 15th Sep 09
2nd group of customers: up to level 54 by 15th Oct 09
3rd group of customers: up to level 77 by 10th Nov 09



Anyone wants to raise the wager?

I will wager anything you like.

Guys one word of warning, IF you all succeeded getting your money back where would that leave those of us that just want this tower completed ?

I suspect if TT owners were asked to pay everyone out whoc asked for theior money that could mean the end for them and FOR ALL investors ?

Surely the way forward is to lobby for more compensation for loss of rental but possibly to accept less than what you are asking for at present

I,m not pro SP in anyway but just don't want to jeopardise this tower getting finished and i think if you have invested/waited for this long another 2 years is worth waiting for - nothing is going to sell for that long anyway and hopefully in two years time renting AND selling will be easier again
- dont shoot me just my opinion !!

Guys one word of warning, IF you all succeeded getting your money back where would that leave those of us that just want this tower completed ?

I suspect if TT owners were asked to pay everyone out whoc asked for theior money that could mean the end for them and FOR ALL investors ?

Surely the way forward is to lobby for more compensation for loss of rental but possibly to accept less than what you are asking for at present

I,m not pro SP in anyway but just don't want to jeopardise this tower getting finished and i think if you have invested/waited for this long another 2 years is worth waiting for - nothing is going to sell for that long anyway and hopefully in two years time renting AND selling will be easier again
- dont shoot me just my opinion !!


I totally agree! I really wonder about the mentality of some people. In the current climate everyone should be hoping and praying that this tower actually gets built. Every project in Dubai is late the Torch is nothing unique at least its above ground and coming along nicely. Speak to the developer in appropriate manner and come to some sort of an arrangement. Stop being foolish!

I totally agree! I really wonder about the mentality of some people. In the current climate everyone should be hoping and praying that this tower actually gets built. Every project in Dubai is late the Torch is nothing unique at least its above ground and coming along nicely. Speak to the developer in appropriate manner and come to some sort of an arrangement. Stop being foolish!

Hi Arfie, should we add a little extra for each payment? are you saying that the escrow account is not well run? are you saying Torch Select Ltd is in trouble?

Hi Arfie, should we add a little extra for each payment? are you saying that the escrow account is not well run? are you saying Torch Select Ltd is in trouble?

The reality is that sometimes too much pressure on weak people causes them to do erratic actions.
I want a better compensation offer too but I would prefer a definite on this tower being finished.

The reality is that sometimes too much pressure on weak people causes them to do erratic actions.
I want a better compensation offer too but I would prefer a definite on this tower being finished.

If you really care exert pressure on the escrow agent (Dubai Islamic Bank, I've already provided details) to provide you with even a hint of useful information

I still haven't seen the letter (no postal deliveries for the past two days - ten inches of snow where I live).

My initial reaction is that I'm disappointed they're now claiming force majeure. I will be interested to study both the evidence advanced in support of this in the letter and the definition of FM in the sale and purchase agreement to see if they have any case at all - clearly, by any normal definition of FM, it doesn't apply here.

I've sent a file on this case to a lawyer in Dubai and am waiting for feedback. While I'll be guided by that advice my every instinct is to write to the developer proposing my own compromise and telling them that if this is not acceptable I'm cancelling all three agreements and having my money back. They may try to put off doing this until 31/06/09, but that's as far as they can hold it out.

Personally I think if enough of us go down this route it will indeed break the developer. That doesn't worry me. Why should we care about them? As to whether this will result in another Lighthouse, I suspect the master developers will end up owning a fair number of the developers at some stage, and that might as well include this one.

I would be up for meeting with other investors in London at any mutually convenient date and location.

A subject not yet properly covered, so here's a question for this rather heated discussion and one for the core tower enthusiasts.

Are the Developers allowed under building safety regulations to allow "customer orientation", WHILST building work is still in progress?

"First orientation to start from level 1 - 28 by 15th Sep 09, whilst basement and access building work continues until 10th Nov 09." ????????

Is this legally allow, prior to safety inspection etc... which I assume won't happen instantly after external cladding finishes 31st Aug 09 and unlikely until all building work is completed, surely?

Anyone care to comment on this?

Cheers

The Torch

PS: I look forward to my orientation around end of Sep 09 (flights booked today), when floor number level 45 will surely be finished (what a relief that will be), however, those on floor 77 who arrive 10th Nov 09, mind your step, we wouldn't want you falling off the edge at floor 66 :banana:

I still haven't seen the letter (no postal deliveries for the past two days - ten inches of snow where I live).

My initial reaction is that I'm disappointed they're now claiming force majeure. I will be interested to study both the evidence advanced in support of this in the letter and the definition of FM in the sale and purchase agreement to see if they have any case at all - clearly, by any normal definition of FM, it doesn't apply here.

I've sent a file on this case to a lawyer in Dubai and am waiting for feedback. While I'll be guided by that advice my every instinct is to write to the developer proposing my own compromise and telling them that if this is not acceptable I'm cancelling all three agreements and having my money back. They may try to put off doing this until 31/06/09, but that's as far as they can hold it out.

Personally I think if enough of us go down this route it will indeed break the developer. That doesn't worry me. Why should we care about them? As to whether this will result in another Lighthouse, I suspect the master developers will end up owning a fair number of the developers at some stage, and that might as well include this one.

I would be up for meeting with other investors in London at any mutually convenient date and location.

If you cancel you will probably never see your money. There is no reason why they should pay you in the next 10 years, is there?

For the avoidance of doubt; there is not common ownership between Select Property Group Ltd., the UK company on behalf of which I have contributed here, and either Torch Select Ltd. (a JAFZA company) or the Select Group corporate structure in the UAE to which it belongs.
Mark Stott is the Chief Exec. of Select Property. The allegation that the UAE corporate structure has somehow been created to obfuscate our ownership of this project is simply unture. Select Property is an agent of the developer of The Torch and provides a number of services by contract only.
Three projects we have launched more recently (Aquitainia, Pacific and West Avenue) are joint venture developments between Select Group and Select Property.

If purchasers who contribute to this forum are arranging to meet in London or elsewhere to discuss the current situation with Then Torch, I am prepared to be involved (if invited) in order to try and clarify some of the misguided beliefs which appear to be distracting people from the important points at the heart of this dispute.

For the avoidance of doubt; there is not common ownership between Select Property Group Ltd., the UK company on behalf of which I have contributed here, and either Torch Select Ltd. (a JAFZA company) or the Select Group corporate structure in the UAE to which it belongs.
Mark Stott is the Chief Exec. of Select Property. The allegation that the UAE corporate structure has somehow been created to obfuscate our ownership of this project is simply unture. Select Property is an agent of the developer of The Torch and provides a number of services by contract only.
Three projects we have launched more recently (Aquitainia, Pacific and West Avenue) are joint venture developments between Select Group and Select Property.

If purchasers who contribute to this forum are arranging to meet in London or elsewhere to discuss the current situation with Then Torch, I am prepared to be involved (if invited) in order to try and clarify some of the misguided beliefs which appear to be distracting people from the important points at the heart of this dispute.

prove it (no common ownership)

I don't know but I would be happy this is even getting built.
Everybody knew from the start they would do this anyway.

For the avoidance of doubt; there is not common ownership between Select Property Group Ltd., the UK company on behalf of which I have contributed here, and either Torch Select Ltd. (a JAFZA company) or the Select Group corporate structure in the UAE to which it belongs.
Mark Stott is the Chief Exec. of Select Property. The allegation that the UAE corporate structure has somehow been created to obfuscate our ownership of this project is simply unture. Select Property is an agent of the developer of The Torch and provides a number of services by contract only.
Three projects we have launched more recently (Aquitainia, Pacific and West Avenue) are joint venture developments between Select Group and Select Property.

If purchasers who contribute to this forum are arranging to meet in London or elsewhere to discuss the current situation with Then Torch, I am prepared to be involved (if invited) in order to try and clarify some of the misguided beliefs which appear to be distracting people from the important points at the heart of this dispute.

Giles,

I accept I'm at a disadvantage as I've been without postal deliveries for the past two days and expect to be for a couple more, so I haven't seen the letter, albeit that someone on this forum has kindly offered to fax me his tomorrow.

That said, I am shocked that the developer is now claiming Force Majeure. As I'm sure you know, in the three and a half years or thereabouts since the project was released, no such claim has previously been made and I am not aware of any wars, earthquakes, civil insurrection or other extreme and unanticipated events that have affected construction that would meet any normal definition of Force Majeure.

I will call you tomorrow because my own position on this is quite clear: unless the developer waives the LPP instalments until completion and provides a fair settlement on top of that, I would like to cancel my purchases and receive refunds of the sums paid to date, and I will be very disappointed if a fraudulent claim of Force Majeure is used to prevent me from receiving those refunds until after 31/06/09.

As to the argument that there is no common ownership between Torch Select Limited and Select Property/Stott Group, like someone else said, I'd be interested to see proof of this. Who are the registered directors and shareholders, and if the UK or Dubai companies have any nominee directors and shareholders, who are the beneficial owners or shadow directors? I appreciate that Dubai Free Zone companies don't have to publish such details, but that doesn't mean that a company can't choose to put them in the public domain.

I'm sure I also saw a press release or other media coverage stating that the developer was a JV between an Emirati and Mark Stott. If it emerges that he's one of the beneficial owners behind the Dubai-registered company then I wonder what sums he has drawn from that business and whether they have been declared to the Inland Revenue here in the UK, assuming he's UK domiciled.

If they are as well off as you think why not put up some escrow statements for all to see.

For the avoidance of doubt; there is not common ownership between Select Property Group Ltd., the UK company on behalf of which I have contributed here, and either Torch Select Ltd. (a JAFZA company) or the Select Group corporate structure in the UAE to which it belongs.
Mark Stott is the Chief Exec. of Select Property. The allegation that the UAE corporate structure has somehow been created to obfuscate our ownership of this project is simply unture. Select Property is an agent of the developer of The Torch and provides a number of services by contract only.
Three projects we have launched more recently (Aquitainia, Pacific and West Avenue) are joint venture developments between Select Group and Select Property.

If purchasers who contribute to this forum are arranging to meet in London or elsewhere to discuss the current situation with Then Torch, I am prepared to be involved (if invited) in order to try and clarify some of the misguided beliefs which appear to be distracting people from the important points at the heart of this dispute.


Whist I appreciate your willingness to attend Giles, as you will appreciate you will only be representing Select Property the agents that sold us these properties. The major concerns I (and assume others) have is not around the way my property was sold to me, you've done your job (though that is open to debate in itself) but the conduct and performance of the developer. Such as...... advising of unrealistic completion dates - we're now with Jan 2010 onto the fourth date that has been communciated. The claiming of force majeure despite the developer advising SP that this would not apply. Any chance you could bring Rahail Aslam with you.........he'll be much more useful........I'm sure we'll all have some interesting questions for him ??

If they are as well off as you think why not put up some escrow statements for all to see.

As I said there is absolutely -no- useful information from the escrow agent whatsoever. The -only- information they provide is dates of payments made by the buyer. The escrow agent seems to be protecting the developer at all costs.

Charlie Big Potatoes, is your experience different, or have you even bothered to appoach the escrow agent?

For the avoidance of doubt; there is not common ownership between Select Property Group Ltd., the UK company on behalf of which I have contributed here, and either Torch Select Ltd. (a JAFZA company) or the Select Group corporate structure in the UAE to which it belongs.
Mark Stott is the Chief Exec. of Select Property. The allegation that the UAE corporate structure has somehow been created to obfuscate our ownership of this project is simply unture. Select Property is an agent of the developer of The Torch and provides a number of services by contract only.
Three projects we have launched more recently (Aquitainia, Pacific and West Avenue) are joint venture developments between Select Group and Select Property.

If purchasers who contribute to this forum are arranging to meet in London or elsewhere to discuss the current situation with Then Torch, I am prepared to be involved (if invited) in order to try and clarify some of the misguided beliefs which appear to be distracting people from the important points at the heart of this dispute.

I do agree with your last point Giles, we should focus on the important points at the heart of this dispute;

1) How Torch Select can suddenly and (il)legally change their minds and do a U turn on force mejuere, having recently informed me and others via their agent in the UK, Select Property, in writing, that FM will not apply. After all, all we ask is that they adhere to their contract with us in an honorable way, just as we have with them.

2) How their "generous good will" offer of compensation on the basis of FM can be, in an adult and professional manner, negotiated to a level that is more fair and honorable all round, without putting the project at risk financially.

3) What assurances Torch Select are prepared to offer (in writing), that they will not, at their discretion, cancel the contract at any stage between end of Jun 09 and completion of The Torch, and if for what ever reason, it became clear they HAD to do this (likely to go into administration for example), that they would prempt such an event and provide a full refund to the investors.

Giles: Would you agree that these are the important points at the heart of this dispute?

If so, how would you recommend that we engaged with Torch Select Limited, when all they are prepared to disclose is an email address (not even the email address of the sender, so no guarantee Mr Brady would receive communication that way), oh and a fax number.

Normally, company letter headed paper, as received by myself this morning in the post, would have a phone number on it - yes, a phone number Giles, a phone number .... of Torch Select Limited, or even Mr Brady himself.

I know my own company's headed paper has - so that customers do have the opportunity to talk to me, the Managing Director, if they have an issue with my company. Talk Giles, talk...

I assume they have a phone Giles, a simple phone?

I assume Mr Brady has a phone Giles, so that we can engaged in communication with him to resolve this "situation" - nip it in the bud so to speak.

Maybe you could furnish this thread with his DDI Giles, assuming he has a phone and also a DDI?

Or maybe you could furnish this thread with his email address, he does have an email address Giles, a simple email address? Surely in this modern day times, he uses email.

I look forward to your response and thank you for contributing and offering your services.

The 50th floor sign is now up on the side of the Torch!

Thanks Joannides. We needed some positive news to remind people that the building work is still progressing well at present - even if other rissues aren't. Hopefully the next mechanical floor - which fortunately doesn't involve changing the size of the floor plate this time - will not cause too much interruption to the regular "cut and paste" schedule which seems pretty well established. Onwards and upwards!!

I've now seen the letter, thanks to a kind member of this forum, rather than Postman Pat.

The developer is relying on the definition of Force Majeure as "any event allowing the contractor carrying out the development works an extension of time under the relevant building contracts(s)".

The letter advises that the principal reason for the delays is that no building permits were issued between 1 October 2005 to 5 December 2006, a period of more than 14 months. If this is true, then clearly, the contractors could not have been expected to build the project and hence could have expected to receive extensions.

However, by attempting to buy themselves another six months they may have unwittingly impaled themselves elsewhere. Clause 9.3 of the SPA obliges the developer to use its reasonable endeavours to complete the development works on time. Does a reasonably competent developer release a project without having first obtained the relevant permissions? I think not...

Good point. The fatal error they made was writing in a completion date without first determining the start date. Absolute basics which is hard to defend. Time is of the essence in every SPA.

Just landed in my Inbox from Select/Torch or whatever their name is! :)

****************
Construction Update - Coming Soon



You are probably wondering where your January construction update for Torch is, especially since we decided not to issue an update at the end of December due to the holiday break shortening the month.



Your update is underway but as the project team in Dubai submits its report to the management team of the developer on or around the 5th of every month, we wanted to wait until this latest information came in so we could make your report more up-to-date.



Based on customer feedback, we’re changing the format of your update giving it a whole new look. We have decided that the updates should not only provide development specific information but should also offer Select Property's view on market conditions and regulatory changes, so we’ve added a new feature that covers any issue affecting your purchase, potential to rent etc.



Included in this months update, we’ll be commenting on the proposed RERA 20% payment regulation, the new rental cap decree, Law 13 and Dubai’s infrastructure budget for 2009.



We hope you’re looking forward to receiving your new-look update at the beginning of next week.



Kind Regards





Member Services

Visit www.myselectproperty.com for the latest property information and updates

Tel. 0870 111 8890
Fax. 0870 444 1175
Email. memberservices@selectproperty.com
www.selectproperty.com
****************

^^same for BC

We are writing to make you aware that following our most recent in-depth project review the overall completion date of The Torch Tower, Dubai Marina, has been confirmed as January 2010 however we are pleased to confirm that buyers will be invited to inspect their properties from September this year.

We have outlined the reasons for the delay below, as well as a number of aspects related to this project, the current progress achieved and the projected schedule for completion of the project.

Reasons for Delay

Over the launch phase in 2005/06, the Torch Tower – standing at 86 floors - was the second tallest tower in Dubai. At this time the authorities were therefore cautious in issuing ‘No Objection Certificates and Approvals’ on such pioneering projects. However, after numerous submissions and re-submissions to the relevant authorities we received final approval.


The key reasons for the delay of the Torch, some of which have been communicated previously, are as follows:

1. Around late 2005 Dubai Municipality blocked all constructions in District 10 due to a Traffic Impact Study that the Municipality requested from Emaar.

2. Additional 3rd party reviews were required in various stages of design approvals.

3. Emaar’s new regulations to obtain approvals on external finishes used.

4. Unavailability of Emaar issued Traffic Impact Study in Marina area

5. Re-checking the structural and MEP designs based on ACI and NFBA (new regulation)

6. New DM regulations requiring consideration to be given to Green Environment design.

7. Revised Civil Defence regulations following a string of accidents in Dubai which resulted in the revision to fire fighting, fire alarm and central control systems.

The record of our submissions and approvals process indicates that from 1st Oct 2005 to 5th Dec 2006, a period of more than 14 months, the relevant authorities were considering designs and submissions without issuing required permits.

Once the work started on the Tower, other delays occurred due to the introduction of a number of new regulations by the Government, which included: a Government declared amnesty that resulted in a severe lack of manpower in the UAE as construction workers were returning to their countries, reduced working hours for workers due to the Government introducing a summer midday break, and Civil Defence delays in approving fire fighting drawings due to their request that designs are seen in view of additional codes.

All the above reasons have contributed to the delay of 19 months in the Project that was actually anticipated for 30th June 2008 but is now scheduled for 31st January 2010 subject to any further governmental approvals that may be required or indeed, other events beyond our control.

The overall delay to the project, from its originally anticipated completion date of 30th June 2008 to its new completion date of 31st Jan 2010, is 19 months, out of which 14 months can be attributed to the delays associated with obtaining the building permit (as explained above) and 5 months of construction delays.

Payment Penalties


We would like to draw your attention to Clause 15.3 of the SPA which states that if the delay is due to Force Majeure (as defined in the SPA) then no penalties are payable and the developer may deliver the project up until 30th June 2009. Among other reasons cited as being beyond the control of the seller, Force Majeure includes: “any event allowing the contractor carrying out the development works an extension of time under the relevant building contract(s)”.

All of the reasons listed above constitute events of Force Majeure under the SPA.

Nonetheless, despite the absence of any contractual entitlements to purchasers (as per clause 15 of the SPA) and entirely as a gesture of goodwill we have decided to credit you with interest at LIBOR + 1% on all payments you have made on or before 30th June 2009. This interest will accrue during the period of 30th June 2009 to 31st January 2010. We hope that you will continue to support us in our endeavour for the earliest possible completion of your property.

Though the delay of 19 months is for reasons entirely outside our control, we trust that you will find our offer of a goodwill payment satisfactory. Please note that the amounts payable by us will be adjusted in the installment due on completion. Of course, acceptance of this credit will be treated as a resolution of any issues that may arise out of the delays.


Please find below, for your information, further details on the current and anticipated progress of the project:

I posted this part earlier

We are writing to make you aware that following our most recent in-depth project review the overall completion date of The Torch Tower, Dubai Marina, has been confirmed as January 2010 however we are pleased to confirm that buyers will be invited to inspect their properties from September this year.

We have outlined the reasons for the delay below, as well as a number of aspects related to this project, the current progress achieved and the projected schedule for completion of the project.

Reasons for Delay

Over the launch phase in 2005/06, the Torch Tower – standing at 86 floors - was the second tallest tower in Dubai. At this time the authorities were therefore cautious in issuing ‘No Objection Certificates and Approvals’ on such pioneering projects. However, after numerous submissions and re-submissions to the relevant authorities we received final approval.


The key reasons for the delay of the Torch, some of which have been communicated previously, are as follows:

1. Around late 2005 Dubai Municipality blocked all constructions in District 10 due to a Traffic Impact Study that the Municipality requested from Emaar.

2. Additional 3rd party reviews were required in various stages of design approvals.

3. Emaar’s new regulations to obtain approvals on external finishes used.

4. Unavailability of Emaar issued Traffic Impact Study in Marina area

5. Re-checking the structural and MEP designs based on ACI and NFBA (new regulation)

6. New DM regulations requiring consideration to be given to Green Environment design.

7. Revised Civil Defence regulations following a string of accidents in Dubai which resulted in the revision to fire fighting, fire alarm and central control systems.

The record of our submissions and approvals process indicates that from 1st Oct 2005 to 5th Dec 2006, a period of more than 14 months, the relevant authorities were considering designs and submissions without issuing required permits.

Once the work started on the Tower, other delays occurred due to the introduction of a number of new regulations by the Government, which included: a Government declared amnesty that resulted in a severe lack of manpower in the UAE as construction workers were returning to their countries, reduced working hours for workers due to the Government introducing a summer midday break, and Civil Defence delays in approving fire fighting drawings due to their request that designs are seen in view of additional codes.

All the above reasons have contributed to the delay of 19 months in the Project that was actually anticipated for 30th June 2008 but is now scheduled for 31st January 2010 subject to any further governmental approvals that may be required or indeed, other events beyond our control.

The overall delay to the project, from its originally anticipated completion date of 30th June 2008 to its new completion date of 31st Jan 2010, is 19 months, out of which 14 months can be attributed to the delays associated with obtaining the building permit (as explained above) and 5 months of construction delays.

Payment Penalties


We would like to draw your attention to Clause 15.3 of the SPA which states that if the delay is due to Force Majeure (as defined in the SPA) then no penalties are payable and the developer may deliver the project up until 30th June 2009. Among other reasons cited as being beyond the control of the seller, Force Majeure includes: “any event allowing the contractor carrying out the development works an extension of time under the relevant building contract(s)”.

All of the reasons listed above constitute events of Force Majeure under the SPA.

Nonetheless, despite the absence of any contractual entitlements to purchasers (as per clause 15 of the SPA) and entirely as a gesture of goodwill we have decided to credit you with interest at LIBOR + 1% on all payments you have made on or before 30th June 2009. This interest will accrue during the period of 30th June 2009 to 31st January 2010. We hope that you will continue to support us in our endeavour for the earliest possible completion of your property.

Though the delay of 19 months is for reasons entirely outside our control, we trust that you will find our offer of a goodwill payment satisfactory. Please note that the amounts payable by us will be adjusted in the installment due on completion. Of course, acceptance of this credit will be treated as a resolution of any issues that may arise out of the delays.


Please find below, for your information, further details on the current and anticipated progress of the project:

I posted this part earlier

This might be a dumb question, but how do we know for a fact that they have got FM approval from RERA? Could this not be another SP smokescreen just to get out of paying compensation?

Is there a way that we could confirm with RERA that the developer has officially got the letter approved and FM too?

Reasons for Delay

Over the launch phase in 2005/06, the Torch Tower – standing at 86 floors - was the second tallest tower in Dubai. At this time the authorities were therefore cautious in issuing ‘No Objection Certificates and Approvals’ on such pioneering projects. However, after numerous submissions and re-submissions to the relevant authorities we received final approval

This is all pure hype, there is a list of towers as tall and taller than the Torch which were all going through approval phase at the same time as TT. The torch was not as unique as they are trying to portray.

The fact is they got the sequence wrong by launching before they had the approvals sorted and therefore had no start date for construction and hence no achievable completion date. They had no experience as a developer to know the correct way to manage the development and as such failed. They did however have plenty of sales experience and incorporated a compensation clause as a carrot to lure investors along with their fake UK company status facade. They produced renders of a structure with exagerated features that they knew would not be built and at all times have continued to provide fairytale completion dates to keep the cash flowing inwards.

Everything todate has been a lie and now that a critical date for the payment of compensation has elapsed, things are starting to unravel for DS/SP or TS whatever they are called.

2 neighbouring projects are good examples of what can happen. Princess tower is a much taller structure than TT, although I bet that was not included in their 2nd tallest tower claim. This tower is creeping ahead in terms of height and is at a far more advanced state of completion in the lower parts. This has gone through all the same approvals criteria as Torch and if we are to believe DS then it would have been subjected to a far more rigorous examination due to it being nearly 100m taller. Infinity Tower,( a real pioneering project) was launched well after Torch, hit a serious problem which delayed it for over a year and is now on target to complete around the same time as Torch. I could include Almas tower but I am sure you are getting it by now.

Force majeure, how can they claim this when every tower in the tallest block has been subjected to the same criteria. The contractor may be entitled to an extension of time but that is simply due to the fact that he is not in control of the design approvals or information flow, that is down to you know who, not any unknown force of nature or unmanagable event. The developer is hiding behind a poorly written agreement or a deliberate act to misslead everyone by including an unrecognised definition of a well know phrase.

Good luck guys, hope you get what you deserve.

Who cares about their construction update. You have a much better place to get updates and that's right here from people like Imre, etc. :cheers:

Who cares about their construction update. You have a much better place to get updates and that's right here from people like Imre, etc. :cheers:

True but we are all still waiting for interior photos!

Who cares about their construction update. You have a much better place to get updates and that's right here from people like Imre, etc. :cheers:

So true. I'm getting tired of Select's letters printed on heavy grade paper with nice seal telling me everything is great dont worry & btw we have other developments that you can invest in. They tell us only what the developer decides to tell them & then spin it. I'd rather they save the money here & employ some more construction workers.
Information & pictures from the good people on this forum is a better indicator of whats going on.

So what do we have :

Select Property Group Ltd
Torch Select Ltd.
Select group
Select Ownership
Bay Central developments
and for every other development (Aquitainia, Pacific and West Avenue) , a different name used to denote the developer.

If your company was straight forward in their dealing and confident of their ability to successfully deliver apartment blocks, they would certainly not go down this route and seek to develop a unifying brand name.



^^ This is common practice even here in the UK. Each major development is contained within a seperate legal entitity. This is to protect one project from problems in another. I am not suggesting SG have a considerate bone in their bodies, just highlighting the fact that it is common practice.

http://i43.tinypic.com/1so8kw.jpg

Nice shot-includes the 'Royal Oceanic' (building to the right of Grosvenor)-is that cladding I can just about see on the lower right border of RO ? :)

The fact is they got the sequence wrong by launching before they had the approvals sorted and therefore had no start date for construction and hence no achievable completion date. They had no experience as a developer to know the correct way to manage the development and as such failed. They did however have plenty of sales experience and incorporated a compensation clause as a carrot to lure investors along with their fake UK company status facade. They produced renders of a structure with exagerated features that they knew would not be built and at all times have continued to provide fairytale completion dates to keep the cash flowing inwards.

Everything todate has been a lie and now that a critical date for the payment of compensation has elapsed, things are starting to unravel for DS/SP or TS whatever they are called.

2 neighbouring projects are good examples of what can happen. Princess tower is a much taller structure than TT, although I bet that was not included in their 2nd tallest tower claim. This tower is creeping ahead in terms of height and is at a far more advanced state of completion in the lower parts. This has gone through all the same approvals criteria as Torch and if we are to believe DS then it would have been subjected to a far more rigorous examination due to it being nearly 100m taller. Infinity Tower,( a real pioneering project) was launched well after Torch, hit a serious problem which delayed it for over a year and is now on target to complete around the same time as Torch. I could include Almas tower but I am sure you are getting it by now.

Force majeure, how can they claim this when every tower in the tallest block has been subjected to the same criteria. The contractor may be entitled to an extension of time but that is simply due to the fact that he is not in control of the design approvals or information flow, that is down to you know who, not any unknown force of nature or unmanagable event. The developer is hiding behind a poorly written agreement or a deliberate act to misslead everyone by including an unrecognised definition of a well know phrase.

Good luck guys, hope you get what you deserve.

Thanks. I agree with your take on the situation. Fact is, they're owning up to a 19-month delay and pinning more than 14 months of that on delays in getting permissions between October 2005 and December 2006.

This raises two issues:

1. As True Blue points out, how come other nearby projects haven't been subject to similar delays? Either the planning/permits claim is a smokescreen or, if it's genuine, it raises questions of whether the developer made some errors along the way. Given that they're in breach of contract for late delivery if they can't prove FM and are also in breach of clause 9.3 (using reasonable endeavours to deliver the project on time) if it can be demonstrated that their efforts to get the apartments handed over in time - which includes obtaining the necessary permissions in a timely manner - fell short of what's reasonable, they may have succeeded in extracting themselves from the frying pan by jumping into the fire...

2. Not only the developer but also the UK selling agent may also be in a difficult position as regards criminal law. Selling properties and taking deposits for them when you didn't actually have the necessary permissions to build them (which they're admitting was the case on units sold before December 2006), without disclosing this fact, is a very serious matter indeed, as is marketing properties with a June or December 2008 or September 2009 completion date when you know that these deadlines are unachievable because you have already clocked up 14 or 19 months of delays which you have chosen not to disclose to new or existing purchasers.


My personal preference is to negotiate sensible compromises with the developer that reflect our individual circumstances. However, as a former journalist, the prospect of putting together a file on this one and giving it to Watchdog, the Tonight programme, the Sunday Times, A Place in the Sun magazine, Which magazine and Cheshire Trading Standards department is very tempting indeed.

We are writing to make you aware that following our most recent in-depth project review the overall completion date of The Torch Tower, Dubai Marina, has been confirmed as January 2010 however we are pleased to confirm that buyers will be invited to inspect their properties from September this year.

We have outlined the reasons for the delay below, as well as a number of aspects related to this project, the current progress achieved and the projected schedule for completion of the project.

Reasons for Delay

Over the launch phase in 2005/06, the Torch Tower – standing at 86 floors - was the second tallest tower in Dubai. At this time the authorities were therefore cautious in issuing ‘No Objection Certificates and Approvals’ on such pioneering projects. However, after numerous submissions and re-submissions to the relevant authorities we received final approval.


The key reasons for the delay of the Torch, some of which have been communicated previously, are as follows:

1. Around late 2005 Dubai Municipality blocked all constructions in District 10 due to a Traffic Impact Study that the Municipality requested from Emaar.

2. Additional 3rd party reviews were required in various stages of design approvals.

3. Emaar’s new regulations to obtain approvals on external finishes used.

4. Unavailability of Emaar issued Traffic Impact Study in Marina area

5. Re-checking the structural and MEP designs based on ACI and NFBA (new regulation)

6. New DM regulations requiring consideration to be given to Green Environment design.

7. Revised Civil Defence regulations following a string of accidents in Dubai which resulted in the revision to fire fighting, fire alarm and central control systems.

The record of our submissions and approvals process indicates that from 1st Oct 2005 to 5th Dec 2006, a period of more than 14 months, the relevant authorities were considering designs and submissions without issuing required permits.

Once the work started on the Tower, other delays occurred due to the introduction of a number of new regulations by the Government, which included: a Government declared amnesty that resulted in a severe lack of manpower in the UAE as construction workers were returning to their countries, reduced working hours for workers due to the Government introducing a summer midday break, and Civil Defence delays in approving fire fighting drawings due to their request that designs are seen in view of additional codes.

All the above reasons have contributed to the delay of 19 months in the Project that was actually anticipated for 30th June 2008 but is now scheduled for 31st January 2010 subject to any further governmental approvals that may be required or indeed, other events beyond our control.

The overall delay to the project, from its originally anticipated completion date of 30th June 2008 to its new completion date of 31st Jan 2010, is 19 months, out of which 14 months can be attributed to the delays associated with obtaining the building permit (as explained above) and 5 months of construction delays.

Payment Penalties


We would like to draw your attention to Clause 15.3 of the SPA which states that if the delay is due to Force Majeure (as defined in the SPA) then no penalties are payable and the developer may deliver the project up until 30th June 2009. Among other reasons cited as being beyond the control of the seller, Force Majeure includes: “any event allowing the contractor carrying out the development works an extension of time under the relevant building contract(s)”.

All of the reasons listed above constitute events of Force Majeure under the SPA.

Nonetheless, despite the absence of any contractual entitlements to purchasers (as per clause 15 of the SPA) and entirely as a gesture of goodwill we have decided to credit you with interest at LIBOR + 1% on all payments you have made on or before 30th June 2009. This interest will accrue during the period of 30th June 2009 to 31st January 2010. We hope that you will continue to support us in our endeavour for the earliest possible completion of your property.

Though the delay of 19 months is for reasons entirely outside our control, we trust that you will find our offer of a goodwill payment satisfactory. Please note that the amounts payable by us will be adjusted in the installment due on completion. Of course, acceptance of this credit will be treated as a resolution of any issues that may arise out of the delays.


Please find below, for your information, further details on the current and anticipated progress of the project:

I posted this part earlier

How can select claim: "... A Government declared amnesty that resulted in a severe lack of manpower in the UAE as construction workers were returning to their countries ..." an act of Force Majeure? The amnesty was for illegal immigrants, most probably unskilled, who should never have been hired to work on The Torch in the first place? Seems to me that Select have just admitted they were breaking UAE laws all along if they had such workers on this project!

Yes well them and everybody else! I don't suppose the directors of Torch Select were checking every subcontractor labourer's papers - and I don't think they would have been responsible for doing so under the law. It isn't correct either to assume the illegals were necessarily unskilled - just that they had absconded from the arrangement with their sponsors which allowed them to be in the country legally; - sometimes for good reason. As I recall DCE sites didn't suffer on any grand scale over this issue. Some others did - and I believe Mag 218 was a site which actually came to a halt over the loss of labour due to the amnesty.

For the avoidance of doubt; there is not common ownership between Select Property Group Ltd., the UK company on behalf of which I have contributed here, and either Torch Select Ltd. (a JAFZA company) or the Select Group corporate structure in the UAE to which it belongs.
Mark Stott is the Chief Exec. of Select Property. The allegation that the UAE corporate structure has somehow been created to obfuscate our ownership of this project is simply unture. Select Property is an agent of the developer of The Torch and provides a number of services by contract only.
Three projects we have launched more recently (Aquitainia, Pacific and West Avenue) are joint venture developments between Select Group and Select Property.

If purchasers who contribute to this forum are arranging to meet in London or elsewhere to discuss the current situation with Then Torch, I am prepared to be involved (if invited) in order to try and clarify some of the misguided beliefs which appear to be distracting people from the important points at the heart of this dispute.

If Torch Select Ltd. is a "JAFZA" company, I'm confused as the following terms & conditions related to JAFZA companies states that "property development" and "real estate" activities are prohibited.

http://www.jafzaoffshorejcauae.com/terms_condition.html

Call me simple and old fashioned but did anyone consider that a guy thought to himself - "I have a vision - I'll go to Dubai and develop nice properties and sell them for a profit - I'll make my fortune!" FULL STOP!! Helloooo!! That was the end of the vision guys; - there were no Machiavellian plots to f**k anyone over and steal all their money; just a guy who had an idea to make a buck, - more or less the same as we all do. Trouble was there was a credit crunch, the banks stopped lending, everyone started taking positions - and it all went a bit pear shaped for a while. Everyone started getting scared - and imagining all sorts of - highly improbable, but just remotely possible - horrors; - and then paranoia set in, and that is roughly where we are now!

Keep it real, - as Anjam says what they've done with the structuring of the various entities is perfectly normal anywhere in the World. If you go to any of the big advisors and ask about a sensible structure which wont leave you exposed this is the way it's done. If you can break through the structure and prove the association and make something stick to your advantage and the company's disadvantage then the advice has seriously f****d up! But then surely I'm in the realms of paranoia here again; - I'm forgetting that the guy just wanted to build me a house and make a buck.

Life's too short for some of this stuff!

I think this is true. Personally, as long as a developer delivers the properties it has contracted to sell me, to the contracted timescale, specification and quality, I don't care what ownership structure is in place, and frankly if the person behind it has structured his affairs in such a way as to minimise tax payable to the UK Treasury, good luck to him: I hope he enjoys it from one of the two islands in The World that he owns.

As for the theory about TS using the force majeure excuse to cancel the contracts just before handover and either keep our money or return it to us but sell the properties at a profit, I've never bought it. The former would be simple theft, the latter would require a huge pile of cash, and both would prevent anyone who has ever been involved in the project at a senior level from ever again sleeping at night for fear that one of the scammed investors would take the law into his own hands.

I think the truth is that Mark Stott was and is a visionary businessman who saw Dubai as a land of opportunity and decided he could become Cheshire's answer to Donald Trump (only without the comedy wig). Trouble is, being new to the game he made a right pig's ear of getting the permits etc, he also miscalculated demand for the various apartment sizes, resulting in having to redesign the building; this and other teething troubles mean he's having to let us down in stages about the true handover date (I say Spring 2011) and cope with our increasing ire and demands for compensation.

DS/SP/SG Rock :)

Wow, Great:)

Just got in from work and been reading all your posts. Jesus.........you guys must have plenty of time on your hands.........I guess you're all so loaded you don't have to work all day like me. :lol:

How about we lighten things up and have a look at some pics from my file.......a trip down memory lane.........those were the days.:)

http://i43.tinypic.com/vqkz6a.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2qjk5zb.jpg

"Dubai Select a Cheshire based developer" :nuts:

On reviewing the original renders and newspaper ads it's obvious that we have 2 completely different buildings here. The one you were sold and the one they are building.

The original design was striking and a very bold statment, the one they are building is emerging as fairly uninteresting IMO. On that basis the UK company is in trouble for miss selling.

http://i44.tinypic.com/keyp0y.jpg



http://i40.tinypic.com/2v9r8nq.jpg

On reviewing the original renders and newspaper ads it's obvious that we have 2 completely different buildings here. The one you were sold and the one they are building.

The original design was striking and a very bold statment, the one they are building is emerging as fairly uninteresting IMO. On that basis the UK company is in trouble for miss selling.

Here's a different take on it............I'm actually very pleased that SG went with the new design, I'm much better off with it. :cheers:

Yes the older design was better looking - I always said it looked like a NASA rocket and the new design looks like a Russian one. However my one bed apartment was also re-designed:

1. The bathroom became on-suite and also I now have a powder room. I was planning on fitting a powder room myself which would have cost quite a bit of money and given new plumbing would have been required I'm not actually sure this would have been possible. But now I have a powder room for free !! And my apartment is 8% larger, again for free !! :banana:

2. I'm on the 8th floor which was originally 3 floors above the podium. The re-design added 6 extra floors beneath me so now I'm 9 floors above the podium, much better and would have cost me an extra 42,840 Dirhams (about £8,000 on today's exchange rate). Guess what.........I got it for free !!! :banana:

OK so the apartment redesign only really applied to the Marina Facing and Media City facing one beds, but a lot of people benefitted like me. Some developers may have tried to charge for this. ie. take a look at the Eden Blue thread from early last year and you'll see the developer was trying to scam all sorts of things - increased price, area calculation changed from being based on net to gross etc. etc.

Also remember everybody who purchased based on the original design went up 6 floors higher.

Yes I agree the original design was better looking but if given a choice would I go back to the old design with a smaller apartment, no powder room and 6 floors lower ?? .......NO WAY !!!


(Sorry this is out of step with all the negative posts from this week, but I have to set the record straight that the redesign was overall a very good thing IMO).

P.S. Even the one beds Sea Facing and Marina View that didn't get the increased area, also benefited from the re-design by having a separate show unit installed in the bathroom - previously it was just over the bath. (And 6 floors higher of course). :cheers:

The original design was striking and a very bold statment, the one they are building is emerging as fairly uninteresting IMO.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and what works for one may not work as well for another. I agree with you that the original design was more striking to look at. I dissagree that the tower as it is being built is uninteresting.

The Torch will stand out completely as the aluminium cladding being used will make it shine in an area surrounded by boring concrete cladding. Compared with Marina Heights, Princess Tower, Emirates Harbour Hotel, Marina Pinnacle etc, it will look stunning.

Im my opinion the Torch Tower will be the second best looking tower in the tallest block area, Infinity being the best.

Excellent that we are now at foor 50. I make it 5 more floors to go until the next mechanical section, then were on the home straight.

Thanks for posting the pics joannides.

Can we assume that they are actually plastering the ceilings and walls before they paint them....... and not simply painting bare concrete ?? (I've never seen anybody doing any plastering !! )

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and what works for one may not work as well for another. I agree with you that the original design was more striking to look at. I dissagree that the tower as it is being built is uninteresting.

The Torch will stand out completely as the aluminium cladding being used will make it shine in an area surrounded by boring concrete cladding. Compared with Marina Heights, Princess Tower, Emirates Harbour Hotel, Marina Pinnacle etc, it will look stunning.

Im my opinion the Torch Tower will be the second best looking tower in the tallest block area, Infinity being the best.

Excellent that we are now at foor 50. I make it 5 more floors to go until the next mechanical section, then were on the home straight.

Thanks for posting the pics joannides.

^^ Good point HT. Will still be a nice looking tower.

Much better than Princess Marina Diamond VII and MAG Diamond VIII. :lol:

Can we assume that they are actually plastering the ceilings and walls before they paint them....... and not simply painting bare concrete ?? (I've never seen anybody doing any plastering !! )

If is the same as TP then its joint and tape, not plastering.

Finally some construction update pics ...

Finally some construction update pics ...

Hear Hear - can anyone acess inside show apartments yet ?

Hear Hear - can anyone acess inside show apartments yet ?

I keep on asking but its still not possible. I guess I should be patient - its only 5 months since I was first told it would be possible "at the end of August"!

08/February/2009

The Torch , Princess Tower etc...

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/3783/imresolt067nm8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5257/imresolt038in8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/7630/imresolt044be1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Great shots Imre, Thanks

Where are they taken from? Marinascape :dunno:

yes, from the Avant , 260 new pics here: www.imredubai.com ( flickr) :)

yes, from the Avant , 260 new pics here: www.imredubai.com ( flickr) :)

You better get me a deal sorted here :bash::bash:

yes, from the Avant , 260 new pics here: www.imredubai.com ( flickr) :)
IMRE --Have you moved from JLT then ?

no, I just did the snagging for my friend:)

Imre- thank you very much for sharing your photos here . I looked through some of marinascape pics that you gave the link to and am very impressed with the quality of this building as far as the tiles/doors/ etc.. What quality do you believe we have bought for the torch. And how do we know that we will not be sold short! Was the marinascape development more expensive. The reception area looks very impressive indeed. Many thanks to you and many others that put so much time into this site-it has been of great comfort to me. I am based in London and have bought a two bed here and a one bed in Bay Central and like many am very dissapointed with Select and how they have dealt with all the current delays. I dont wish to talk to them anymore as the sales staff are all one trip ponies who are purely focussed on selling anything they can Last week I called chasing a receipt for the land registry fees-I heard a bell in the background then everyone cheered. I asked what was going on and was told that someone had made a sale! Where did thay sell I asked knowing that times are tough at the momnet-a furniture pack I was told. I must say I felt rather insuted that here we are years behind any possible income and they have cheated us-the paying customers out of any compensation to hear this carry on.
Ps Im up for a meeting anywhere anytime to discuss compensation issues.
PPS how do I get into the torch owners only site-can someone help me here

I know we are at floor 52 now, but does anyone know the actual apartment number floor level we are at - i.e. Apartment XX01 , XX02, XX03, XX04, XX05, XX06, XX07 and XX08?

What XX are we at?

I am so confused with all the design changes, floor inserts and how they relate to the actual apartment numbers we have bought.

Any help appreciated.

Cheers

The Torch

DS/SP/SG Rock :)

I know we are at floor 52 now, but does anyone know the actual apartment number floor level we are at - i.e. Apartment XX01 , XX02, XX03, XX04, XX05, XX06, XX07 and XX08?

What XX are we at?

I am so confused with all the design changes, floor inserts and how they relate to the actual apartment numbers we have bought.

Any help appreciated.

Cheers

The Torch

45 I think if you call the 1st level above the floor change number 23, 23 being the new floor layout i.e 2 beds type B as opposed to type a 2 bed upto purchased level 22...

45 I think if you call the 1st level above the floor change number 23, 23 being the new floor layout i.e 2 beds type B as opposed to type a 2 bed upto purchased level 22...

Thanks Jeffers

from the Marinascape Avant Infinity pool:)

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/176/imresolt216xe7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

TT seems to be catching Pinnacle - great pool IMRE

TT seems to be catching Pinnacle - great pool IMRE

And about peeping over Le Rive

TT seems to be catching Pinnacle

Yeah, just 10 floors left :lol:

I think MP is at floor 65, only two flood away feiom topping out. It's been like this for ages, I reckon the developer has lost the top of the building or it's for sale on eBay.

MP are waiting for the TT to reach floor 65 and then there will be a race !!!!

http://i42.tinypic.com/29eq5qh.jpg

the sign for the 51st floor went up on the side of the building yesterday!

Joannides > Thanks for keeping us updated and sane!

That also goes for Imre and others that post updates here.

DS/SP/SG Rock :)

^^

Your forum rehab was going so well :cheers:

Could you not have PM'd Scooby with your request? Can't believe her inbox was full :banana:

Great :)

I'm so paranoid these days, I don't even trust myself! Oii, get away from that computer! Sorry, better go...

Right :)