^^
Thanks Ben - good to hear some optimism for a change! I hope you're right. Did you get a chance to look in the Torch while you were there?

Ben. did you manage to get into any Torch units?? also did you get back down to R.A.K at all ?? :cheers:

The media is making people frightened to move forward. We have 2 houses we rent out in Tenerife and we don't have one booking after March. Flights are cheap, I've put a special offer on the weeks but still no bookings. So it's not only Dubai, it's all over.

Likewise my house in France. Most years, much of the school summer holiday dates would be taken up in January. This year, only one week so far...

I price the place in Sterling, so the only Euros people need spend are on food etc when they get there - and their supermarkets are mainly cheaper than the UK's even at current exchange rates. Meanwhile, the cost of flying or driving there has fallen in line with the collapse in the oil price, which was near its peak last summer...

Ben. did you manage to get into any Torch units?? also did you get back down to R.A.K at all ?? :cheers:

Jeffers, with all the depressing talk on both Torch ad Pacific (and most of the other) threads I could not face going to RAK or trying my luck with Torch access, I stayed in TP so had a clear view of the Torch and drove past most days, it went up two floors while I was there and I saw plenty of workers doing there thing, that was enough peace of mind in the current climate and good enough for me.

Once finished it will be great, some of the best bars, nightclubs, restaurants and shops are all within (staggering) walking distance. The Marina walk and JBR walk are both outstanding and the Marina Mall (Waitrows) is great and will get better once things pick up again.

I am a lot more concerned with the Pacific in RAK than I ever would be with the Touch, with at least one of the main developers on that Island going bust and no work started and the normal PR crap from SP things are a lot more challenging.

As for other rentals - I still think it is down to market price, & for me cheap and booked is better than full price and empty - all mine are booking ok..

Cheers Ben. I purposely have not been over for a year now, so that I could see a material difference to The Torch and the area in general. Needing a holiday now though.
What was your thoughts on the alu cladding, impressive in its surroundings ??

Blast from the past...May 2005...Al if you are reading please give us an update!

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=4152820&postcount=20

I think people have a right to a second opinion:

a/ A reliable (i.e. from a powerful Emirati family - his father is a Sheikh) source has told me that The Torch has actually been for sale for over 3 months already (perhaps only in Dubai). That is the reason so many are sold out already. Don't listen to hype about 'only a few left' etc. these are typical tricks.
b/ The same source told me not to buy an apartment in this building as the owners/developers are not 'respectible' (his words, not mine)
c/ It is quite possible that if they do not sell enough apartments or buyers drop out that building work will stop as they do not have sufficient financial backing to complete the tower without pre-selling all (or most of) the apartments - again, his opinion, not mine. If you don't think this can happen, look how behind the Wind Towers are due to insufficient funding.
d/ The views of the sea-facing apartments in the Marina Heights WILL be effected (but the tower won't be as wide as it appears in the picture above) however don't forget the towers to be built alongside the Al Marsa tower ... they are tall as well so you may not get better views from the Torch (hence them saying buy at the back of the building)
e/ Completion date far more likely to be 2008 than 2007
f/ Dubai Select are a brand new company, never filed accounts with Companies House and therefore it is impossible to know whether they will be around in 1 or 2 years! I would always buy through a well established agent or direct.
g/ Notice how they say "80 floors *at the moment*"!!!!!

Am sure PaulTaylor will scoff at my remarks and dismiss them but he's the one trying to get your money ... not me!

Cheers Ben. I purposely have not been over for a year now, so that I could see a material difference to The Torch and the area in general. Needing a holiday now though.
What was your thoughts on the alu cladding, impressive in its surroundings ??

I'm no expert on this, but seeing the windows fitted and the bare concrete start to be covered over with a shiny surface (hiding the gaps and holes ext) means you can start to get an idea of the finished look and it looks great. I think once large areas are complete you will get a much better overal perspective of the finish as it is still only in bits and pieces at the moment.

Separate issue but I am sure the Torch is growing faster that its next door neighbour and may even soon catch up and take over at this rate?

Blast from the past...May 2005...Al if you are reading please give us an update!

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=4152820&postcount=20
But at the end of the day it will be finished way before Bay Central where I have seen my investment be worth 20% less than my OP at least here I can get OP if I really want it here (not that I do I'm in for long haul )

Here's a question for you all out there.If they manage to finish the Point by say August2009 would they transfer the workers there to The Torch to push it on or would they transfer them to Bay Central or pay them off

most prob too Botanica too keep them quite..

I think botanica may be put on long term hold and buyers will be transfered to the returned units in the torch. I don't see the torch getting any more workers there is not a shortage anymore.

most prob too Botanica too keep them quite..


Of course not. Hardly worth sending glazers plumbers and sparks there is it and there are only a handfull oF DCE guys left at TP

Spent a few days in Dubai facts finding, spoke to and met with many people from all kind fields and I am back home today. I will catch up with work first but will be back with the full report about Dubai in general and DS/SG projects. :cheers:

^^

Look forward to that with interest.

Of course not. Hardly worth sending glazers plumbers and sparks there is it and there are only a handfull oF DCE guys left at TP

Your right i would imagine.

By the time these workers are finished at the Point. The Torch will be in the 70 floor region so only 11 more to go.

I think there are enough structural floor workers on site to achive a 6 day cycle. Thats about as fast as you can go no matter how many workers you have i think. What the Torch needs in terms of labour is glazers, plumers kitchen fitters, and sparks to contiune with the fitting out of the units, so my guess is that the workers from the Point will switch to the Torch, as they complete in the Point.

Once the structure of the Torch is complete these structural workers will be needed to get stuck into the 3 Bay Central towers.

Thats how i would manage the labour situation. But i guess ultimately it is down to DCE.

Forget Botanica and West Avenue. I doubt they will happen in the short term. Credit crisis is a great excuse to claim Forced Manuere for these two.

Once the last wave of investors from the Torch hand back their units this year and next, Select will be in a position to offer Botanica and West Avenue investors an alternative near complete unit and either sit on the land or sell it on in a year or so when things start to move. There is a good deal of money to be made on this type of transaction and Select could emerge smelling of roses again.

HT, Beps was talking about sending them to BOT not TT I think.

^^

Look forward to that with interest.



Your right i would imagine.

By the time these workers are finished at the Point. The Torch will be in the 70 floor region so only 11 more to go.

I think there are enough structural floor workers on site to achive a 6 day cycle. Thats about as fast as you can go no matter how many workers you have i think. What the Torch needs in terms of labour is glazers, plumers kitchen fitters, and sparks to contiune with the fitting out of the units, so my guess is that the workers from the Point will switch to the Torch, as they complete in the Point.

Once the structure of the Torch is complete these structural workers will be needed to get stuck into the 3 Bay Central towers.

Thats how i would manage the labour situation. But i guess ultimately it is down to DCE.

Forget Botanica and West Avenue. I doubt they will happen in the short term. Credit crisis is a great excuse to claim Forced Manuere for these two.

Once the last wave of investors from the Torch hand back their units this year and next, Select will be in a position to offer Botanica and West Avenue investors an alternative near complete unit and either sit on the land or sell it on in a year or so when things start to move. There is a good deal of money to be made on this type of transaction and Select could emerge smelling of roses again.

HT, Do you think this give 30 day notice, wait 20 working days and get your cheque will be as simple as that? I doubt very much but as TP is the first to excersise this option as of 30 3 09 I will keep you informed. With the dhs at 5.05 this morning I would think a few more will be going down this route.

Can any investors in TT, tell me what the current official handover date is after SP/SG claimed FM?

Thanks.

^^
30 June 2009 you can give your 20 days notice.

Thanks for that Samantha, good to know, but what if you want to keep your apartment?

^^
If you want to keep it then you do nothing. Although contractually, SP/TS can give you 20 days notice on 30 June that they are terminating the contract, but I doubt very much this would happen.

^^
30 June 2009 you can give your 20 days notice.

Is it not the case that on the 30th you can give them notice allowing them 30 days to deliver and if after that date no flat they must return monies paid within 20 working days. Bear in mind as per your contract there are only 4 working days a week as they do not include fri, sat and sun. This is the case with TP contracts. Hope this helps.

Thanks for that Samantha, good to know, but what if you want to keep your apartment?

Do you have the same handback/refund clause in your BC contract ?

Do you have the same handback/refund clause in your BC contract ?

Yes, I believe it is similar but with only the BC contract to go on it is difficult to compare. I think the only difference is that in BC we have it clearly stated that compensation will be paid in quarterly intervals.

From what I gather from the Torch investors, is that your contracts state that compensation would have been paid after handover. As they have invoked FM and therefore there will be no compensation, this is a mute point and not worth further discussion.

What I would like to know is:
Now they have invoked FM, and are trying to retrospectively change unfair 20 day clause in contracts (for people that want to keep their apartments) - what is the SP/SG estimated completition date for this tower?

January 2010 is the official line, with inspections commencing on lower levels in September 2009.

I think it will be January 2011 before i get my keys as i am quite HIGH.

On balance, personaly i can live with this as i estimated 3rd Quarter 2010 from day 1 of my investment.

With FM now in play i will have a chioice to make come September 2010.

1- Take a full refund in Dirham and exchange to Sterling
2- Sell up and take a profit if there is one
3- Rent out if there is still a viable rental market in Dubai either short term or long term

Unless the Dollar falls to $2.10 = £1 i cant loose really. Come September 2010 the world will be a different place and there will be bargains to be had back in the UK in terms of Property so this may well work out best for me as the funds came from UK property that i sold back in 2007 anyway.

Swings and roundabouts as they say.

Is it not the case that on the 30th you can give them notice allowing them 30 days to deliver and if after that date no flat they must return monies paid within 20 working days. Bear in mind as per your contract there are only 4 working days a week as they do not include fri, sat and sun. This is the case with TP contracts. Hope this helps.

My understanding is, and this is from memory as my contract is at home, is that clause 15.2 states that if the apartment isn't ready by 30 Dec 08 and it's not FM, you can give 20 days notice and if they still haven't delivered, they have to return your money within 30 days of the date that you gave notice (ie 10 days after the 20 days notice has finished). Clause 15.3 states that if it's not ready by 30 June 09, even if it's due to FM, both parties can give 20 days notice to terminate the contract.

I presumed that the provisions in 15.2 about returning the money within 30 days of date of notice also apply to 15.3, although this is not actually written in my contract.

January 2010 is the official line, with inspections commencing on lower levels in September 2009.

I think it will be January 2011 before i get my keys as i am quite HIGH.

On balance, personaly i can live with this as i estimated 3rd Quarter 2010 from day 1 of my investment.

With FM now in play i will have a chioice to make come September 2010.

1- Take a full refund in Dirham and exchange to Sterling
2- Sell up and take a profit if there is one
3- Rent out if there is still a viable rental market in Dubai either short term or long term

Unless the Dollar falls to $2.10 = £1 i cant loose really. Come September 2010 the world will be a different place and there will be bargains to be had back in the UK in terms of Property so this may well work out best for me as the funds came from UK property that i sold back in 2007 anyway.

Swings and roundabouts as they say.

Option 1 - don't count on getting your money within 20 days. Be mindful of stall tactics and other delays. You'd be at the mercy of the markets from the moment you send your termination letter. As we've seen, the fx rate can move quite a bit in a month or two...

Option 2 seems like a dead duck at the moment for the masses. SP could well have the upper hand here having Botanica/WA investors locked into contracts at a high rate per sq ft.

Option 3 could be helped by the completion of the metro and tram systems, the cancellation of other projects and the lack of activity in the MST plot...

January 2010 is the official line, with inspections commencing on lower levels in September 2009.

I think it will be January 2011 before i get my keys as i am quite HIGH.

On balance, personaly i can live with this as i estimated 3rd Quarter 2010 from day 1 of my investment.

With FM now in play i will have a chioice to make come September 2010.

1- Take a full refund in Dirham and exchange to Sterling
2- Sell up and take a profit if there is one
3- Rent out if there is still a viable rental market in Dubai either short term or long term

Unless the Dollar falls to $2.10 = £1 i cant loose really. Come September 2010 the world will be a different place and there will be bargains to be had back in the UK in terms of Property so this may well work out best for me as the funds came from UK property that i sold back in 2007 anyway.

Swings and roundabouts as they say.

Sounds like you are doing very well for yourself if you bought at 7aed and repatriate cash at 5aed. 30% on currency movements alone, UK property at least 25-30% off!

As the saying goes, a bird in the hand is worth more than 2 in the bush!

I think 1st June 2009 will be a very exciting day for SP/SG!!!

Spent a few days in Dubai facts finding, spoke to and met with many people from all kind fields and I am back home today. I will catch up with work first but will be back with the full report about Dubai in general and DS/SG projects. :cheers:

Dying to hear all about it!!

^^Come on Mackie - you must be bored with work now.

Spill the beans, please!

OK

Spent the last few days visiting Dubai and talking to developers(including SG), suppliers, hotel managers, hotel workers (including the most informative valet parking attendances), Sail club managers and workers, a few successful businessmen, a few friends that live in Dubai full time, Banks and building Managers. There are many negatives and very few positives and I shall start with the bad news first. Please remember that I am a great supporter of Dubai as I love the place and hope to move there permanently in the very near future. Please also note that these are just my views and are not meant to offend or influence anyone.

Let me start with Dubai in General and let me tell you that it is with a heavy heart that I have to report that the whole place is totally f***d at the moment, total freeze and in a free fall and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. Confidence is evaporating and the big guy is too quite and needs to get off his Royal A$$ and say something to give people some confidence. His silence is making the situation much worse and giving room for too many rumours. He is currently drunk on poetry :ohno:

Forget about the silly banter about prices per sqft. If you have cash, you can buy at silly prices, well below the original prices in many cases and in the best locations.

The government owe too much money to many companies including a guy I spoke to who he can not pay his suppliers and at risk of going bust because the government is not paying him.

The police compounds are full of thousands of cars that have been dumped, seen them by my own eyes and the Marinas are full of boats that owned by the bank. The banks do not know what to do with the properties, boats, cars….etc of the defaulters and the lack of established laws, systems and procedures are causing this total freeze and what is worse is no body is allowed or willing to talk about it publicly, only friends amongst themselves are discussing these issues.

Many developers are not continuing with their buildings and very few developers will survive. Not many developers are able to pay the bills.

Plenty of cheap unskilled labour available for developers that have money and willing to spend.

Buildings that have many tenants that have lost their jobs and are just waiting for the lease to finish or their kids to finish the school year/term…etc to return home.

The most worrying thing for me are the hotels, how empty they are, how expensive they still are, how empty the beaches are on daily basis (except for weekends) and the number of hotels that closed complete wings. Including the big hotel that mothballed nearly 700 rooms. The hotels by the beach are near empty and yet the figures / statistics are manipulated by the government.

On the weekend I saw the Walk and Marina walk busy but you can count the tourist on your hand despite the attraction. I was pleased to see so many locals out enjoying themselves eating and not just showing their cars off in large group, never saw that kind of numbers in the UAE before and especially groups of local ladies. Still I was concerned that there were hardly any tourists.

Am I worried? Yes Very, if the investor’s confidence level reaches the point of no return. I am not only talking about real estate, I am talking about investment in Dubai in General.

Would I still invest in Dubai? Yes I would, especially at these current falling prices.

Do I think Dubai will recover soon? No, this is a long term investment for me. This place will take years to recover.

Will do some work and will be back with some more and much more about DS/SG (Positives and negatives). :cheers: Yes there are some positives to look forward too. :)

You may wonder, what has the above got to do with the developments, this will become clear next time I log on.

Mackie - what you are reporting is not just Dubai specific! All governments, banks are screwed. Hotels around the world are suffering with the current recession.

Dubai will recover and agree it will take time.

Thanks Mackie...Can't wait for the next episode.

Might keep a bottle of JD next to me though...for medicinal reasons mind.

Mackie - what you are reporting is not just Dubai specific! All governments, banks are screwed. Hotels around the world are suffering with the current recession.

Dubai will recover and agree it will take time.

Do you remember trying to sell me some units in City of Arabia? :bash::bash: Good job I did not take you up on your offers, you would have been a dead man by now :)

back soon :cheers:

^^..thanks Mackie for your info....but i have to say nothing new....i think Dubai will recover and in fact doing well in terms of tourism...yes Real Estate may take some time to booooooooooom again...but dont forget about other sectors....i think it will recover soon...

Do you remember trying to sell me some units in City of Arabia? :bash::bash: Good job I did not take you up on your offers, you would have been a dead man by now :)

back soon :cheers:

And do you remember saying how wonderful the project :) You kept slagging off SP but then kept buying and still whinging :)

Mackie forget the boats cars banks empty hotels etc etc more on the large crowds of birds.:banana:

OK

Spent the last few days visiting Dubai and talking to developers(including SG), suppliers, hotel managers, hotel workers (including the most informative valet parking attendances), Sail club managers and workers, a few successful businessmen, a few friends that live in Dubai full time, Banks and building Managers. There are many negatives and very few positives and I shall start with the bad news first. Please remember that I am a great supporter of Dubai as I love the place and hope to move there permanently in the very near future. Please also note that these are just my views and are not meant to offend or influence anyone.

Let me start with Dubai in General and let me tell you that it is with a heavy heart that I have to report that the whole place is totally f***d at the moment, total freeze and in a free fall and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. Confidence is evaporating and the big guy is too quite and needs to get off his Royal A$$ and say something to give people some confidence. His silence is making the situation much worse and giving room for too many rumours. He is currently drunk on poetry :ohno:

Forget about the silly banter about prices per sqft. If you have cash, you can buy at silly prices, well below the original prices in many cases and in the best locations.

The government owe too much money to many companies including a guy I spoke to who he can not pay his suppliers and at risk of going bust because the government is not paying him.

The police compounds are full of thousands of cars that have been dumped, seen them by my own eyes and the Marinas are full of boats that owned by the bank. The banks do not know what to do with the properties, boats, cars….etc of the defaulters and the lack of established laws, systems and procedures are causing this total freeze and what is worse is no body is allowed or willing to talk about it publicly, only friends amongst themselves are discussing these issues.

Many developers are not continuing with their buildings and very few developers will survive. Not many developers are able to pay the bills.

Plenty of cheap unskilled labour available for developers that have money and willing to spend.

Buildings that have many tenants that have lost their jobs and are just waiting for the lease to finish or their kids to finish the school year/term…etc to return home.

The most worrying thing for me are the hotels, how empty they are, how expensive they still are, how empty the beaches are on daily basis (except for weekends) and the number of hotels that closed complete wings. Including the big hotel that mothballed nearly 700 rooms. The hotels by the beach are near empty and yet the figures / statistics are manipulated by the government.

On the weekend I saw the Walk and Marina walk busy but you can count the tourist on your hand despite the attraction. I was pleased to see so many locals out enjoying themselves eating and not just showing their cars off in large group, never saw that kind of numbers in the UAE before and especially groups of local ladies. Still I was concerned that there were hardly any tourists.

Am I worried? Yes Very, if the investor’s confidence level reaches the point of no return. I am not only talking about real estate, I am talking about investment in Dubai in General.

Would I still invest in Dubai? Yes I would, especially at these current falling prices.

Do I think Dubai will recover soon? No, this is a long term investment for me. This place will take years to recover.

Will do some work and will be back with some more and much more about DS/SG (Positives and negatives). :cheers: Yes there are some positives to look forward too. :)

You may wonder, what has the above got to do with the developments, this will become clear next time I log on.

I have heard many different stories of late and have no doubt this was your experience. I have just returned and found a completely different experience from yours and spoke with my expat friends whom are all upbeat. I also know the manager of the Royal Meridien and Grosvenor and she says the occupancy levels are as high as normal albeit they had to drop rates to match currency changes. I also know a well to do local emirati that contradicts your story on the cars. Likewise i didn't see all the signs on the boats saying repossed by bank...can't think how else you would know. My mate has a boat and mixes with that fraternity...he has heard nothing of this.

My point is depending on who you speak with, depending on your angle there are a million different versions of a story. People will choose whichever suits their circumstance at the time.

I also found this story...Surely Deloittes aren't in on the conspiracy too!!!

Hotels in Abu Dhabi and Dubai have both secured places in Deloitte’s global hotel performance for revenue per available room (revPAR) for 2008 it was announced on Tuesday.

Dubai hotels continued to achieve the highest average room rates and revPAR in the Middle East at $300 and $237 respectively, giving it the second highest revPAR and third best average room rates in the world, according to the professional services firm.

Abu Dhabi also saw an increase in revPAR, up 46 percent to $231 per night, earning the capital city the fourth place in revPAR, just $6 behind Dubai. Occupancy rates of 81.5 percent also earned the city third place in the world, said Deloitte.


The top performer in the world, according to the report, was Moscow.

Despite the global downturn, the Middle East and South America were the only region’s to report double digit revPAR growth during the second half of 2008, up 14.5 percent and 18.3 percent respectively.

Deloitte warned that tourist regions must invest in key infrastructure developments and offer value for money in a bid to combat the downturn.

“It is important for countries to invest in tourism infrastructure developments, including airport expansions and hotel developments once credit becomes available again, as this is needed for the industries long-term growth and sustainability,” said Alex Kyriakidis, Deloitte global managing partner for Tourism, Hospitality & Leisure.

Other top ten cities in the world for revPAR included Doha and Muscat up 25.2 percent and 31.1 percent respectively compared to the previous year.

On Monday, Khalid A bin Sulayem, general director of Dubai Department of Tourism (DTCM) said Dubai hotel operators were better prepared for the economic downturn than other regions after reporting 95 percent occupancy rates for Dubai’s five-star beach hotels in February.

will be back with some more and much more about DS/SG (Positives and negatives). :cheers: Yes there are some positives to look forward too. :)

Hurry up and tell us the positive news, I am fed up with negativity.

Mackie, oh where are you ?? come on Mackie, you have an interested audience.. oh Mackie...:cheers1:

Mackie forget the boats cars banks empty hotels etc etc more on the large crowds of birds.:banana:

Charlie’s birds
Birds for Charlie (http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=2cieips&s=5)

The others were all dressed in Black :)

Got your PM Spudsie and will respond when I can, Tried to buy some and ship them elsewhere but it was no go at this time because they have not decided or know what to do, will tell you the details later :)

I left all the videos to load while I went to the Match last night but came back to find only one loaded and all the others crashed, I will try to load the photos and videos later in the day from work. Sorry :cheers:

@DxbPC; ........Better not, I would be just wasting my time

Back on later in the day.

^^Very commendable! Must be much easier ways of getting into Marys knickers.

Mackie, please come and give us some positive news after this letter from the Enforcer. I'm starting to get REALLY worried!!

^^Very commendable! Must be much easier ways of getting into Marys knickers.

You must be the new jerk on the block!

You must be the new jerk on the block!

Or Mr R. Aslam!!!

:banana:

OK I will soon.

I met the Guy and he was OK but I can understand that he does not have the time to meet everyone.

I am in and out of meetings but I will be back with more details. for now, I've got someone to upload the photos/videos for you :)

Mary and her Tablets :lol: A scoopy or XX Classic. You have to be carful guys for the sake of this forum.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2vrxsg0.jpg

OK, Some positives before I get into the negatives again:

It will have to be in bite as I am in and out of meetings all day.

During my recent Visit to Dubai I met with a few people from Select. The first meeting was on site with OKBAH ABDUL KARIM (Project Director) and MAZEN HANANA (Project Manager), their back ground information can be found here:

http://www.select-group.ae/development.html

They have joined along with others in November 2008 and since then they have been meeting the milestones set by their project schedule.

The positives I took from that meeting and the site tour from top to bottom were mainly the two guys attitude, experience and their openness to discuss anything (a first for select, I can tell you that). I challenged them to a few issues on the Torch, point and other projects and I will explain this later. One of the main positives was their previous experience with the Dubai Municipality / Permits, certifications (especially Mazen, who has worked for the Municipality for over 9 years, I was told).

I was encouraged by their willingness to come out and meet me on their day off and not shy away form any question about any of their developments. I was also encouraged by their challenging attitude regarding meeting some of the dates on their schedules based on 4 & 5 days cycle (I was told that the 4&5 days were because of Concrete delivery and the day off…etc, which I can understand).

Again, I will stick with the positives for now and next time I log on, I will tell you more about this site visit and my meeting with Rahail.

It is worth knowing for now that I think this tower will be completed and the horrible white cookers and hoods are not the ones that will be installed.

Back again soon. (God, this positive thingy is too hard. I don't know how Docc does it all the time) :lol:

http://i42.tinypic.com/29d8nc0.jpg

^^Very commendable! Must be much easier ways of getting into Marys knickers.

:lol:

Torch and Dubai Marina from Iris Blue (http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=11j29eh&s=5)

the horrible white cookers and hoods are not the ones that will be installed.


:banana::banana::banana:

Torch and Dubai Marina from Iris Blue (http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=11j29eh&s=5)


Great viewing, shame you have missed the Oscars.

I've never heard Mackie this positive?? maybe they paid him his compensation or bribed him with a trip in the lift?

^^
Wait for it though - he said the negatives are coming later!

^^Come on mackie - You are stretching this next epsidoe out a bit too much!

Spill the beans on your meeting with Aslam...

^^
Wait for it though - he said the negatives are coming later!

Correct, It's coming back later :)

^^
Wait for it though - he said the negatives are coming later!

yeh, they made him walk down the stairs..

Correct, It's coming back later :)

The suspense is killing me Mackie, and I'm offline for the weekend on a canal boat, not back till Monday. You are going to ruin my weekend if you don't start typing now m8.

For the rest of you, don't worry about the "Mackie positives", its the lift altitude effect, I was the same for day or so. Doctor said it would pass and he was right. Soon he'll be back to normal.

The Torch

The suspense is killing me Mackie, and I'm offline for the weekend on a canal boat, not back till Monday. You are going to ruin my weekend if you don't start typing now m8.

For the rest of you, don't worry about the "Mackie positives", its the lift altitude effect, I was the same for day or so. Doctor said it would pass and he was right. Soon he'll be back to normal.

The Torch

Just pick up the phone Mate, you know where I am at :cheers:

You know the drill, working 14/15 hours days to catch up.

^^Come on mackie - You are stretching this next epsidoe out a bit too much!

Spill the beans on your meeting with Aslam...



The things I do for you :bash: I had to get up early to write this as I am busy again today.

OK, I will come back to the developments later. I will tell you about the meeting with Rahail.
He seemed to be a nice guy, a sharp businessman but clearly does know little about construction (he does not need to, I understand that but it would help).

He was in a mode of no negotiations and very much focused on delivering all the projects. He claims that he will be the only developer to complete their entire projects and in the current climate, he is one of very few that are paying all of their bills.

He seems to think that whatever he does, he can not please everybody and therefore his main focus is to deliver the project. I did not like that bit about willing to upset a few investors to ensure delivery of the project but deep down, I was thinking under the current climate, I would do the same.

We spoke about quality, appliances, FM and having to pay the contractors much more money to keep the project going despite the fixed contract and having to give them extension recently again.

He claims that his team has met every target since November and that is in line with my discussions with the construction team on site.

They have too much money tied into this project (LPP is provided by them and their backers and not structured through banks). and that it is in their interest to finish it ASAP to recoup some of the money back.

He claims that he will just break even on this development due to the earlier doubling of construction materials cost and having to pay the contractors much more.

They seem to be keeping good relationship with rera and the first conforming to the ever changing laws. I thought to my self tht in doing so, they have stitched the investors up (within the current Dubai system as rera is the Law as we stand today)

He was open to listen and discuss anything and was not in a rush but I did not like the body language as I felt that he was just going through the motions. He did not have to meet me and I appreciate that he took the time to do so but:

Do I trust him? Probably No.
Do I believe him? To a degree, Yes, I think that his focused to deliver all projects and he seems to be sincere about it but not sure that he will deliver on all of his promises.
Do I feel any better after the two meetings on site? A little and I am sharing all of this with you in the hope that it might make a few people sleep better at night.
Have I changed my mind about what I am going to do next? Not sure, I will discuss it with a few people that came to my office before I travelled and we will agree on a way forward.
Should I give them back the units on LLP? Probably not under the current climate and current banking conditions both here and in Dubai.

What next? Think hard before the next move. I need this development complete and can't afford for them to stop or walk away.

Is that positive enough for you? I am not a Morris or Dumb and Dumber on the BC thread and can’t keep this up for long :)

I have loads more info about the other projects but these guys put me off wasting my time posting stuff over there.

Off to work, back again soon. I will get one of the nice ladies to load the photos/videos for you again. They are addicted to this now and I am going to have to block this site at work :lol:

^^Thanks Mackie... Makes interesting reading.

Thanks mackie - very interesting reading - much appreciated!

since getting the letter fromSP/SG stating FM, has anyone got or heard of anyone who has achieved any concession - however small, that's over and above what was outlined in the letter?

Thanks Mackie. That makes me feel a lot better. One final question, do you think they will honour the contract (and can afford to) and return all monies to those that hand back on 30 June?

Thanks Mackie. That makes me feel a lot better. One final question, do you think they will honour the contract (and can afford to) and return all monies to those that hand back on 30 June?

You have to ask yourself to where the money is going to come from. The construction guys told me that they will be starting the other developments very soon (Mazen said Botanica within this month and as I was leaving the last day, I saw some activities on that site from the bedroom balcony). Even if you hand back, it could take a long time for the money to come. It's a question you have to answer as an individual depending on your circumstances but you could end up handing the unit/units back and wait for the money for a long time. Is this a situation you are willing to entertain? What is plan B? I am going through the same thought process myself and have not made my mind up yet.

Sorry, not much to offer you here but hope this help :cheers:

They could happily have your unit and sell it on completion, make more money and then give you your money :dunno:

They could happily have your unit and sell it on completion, make more money and then give you your money :dunno:

If they do that, I may as well keep it myself and take the profit instead of them having it. Although I suppose it means I wouldn't have to make the LPP payments in the meantime. I'll have to see what the situation is in June and then make a decision. :cheers:

thanks mackie for your posts, highly appreciated.

Thanks for your time and effort in this, appreciate you're a busy man like most of us, but hats off for taking the time to share your finding etc...

You have to ask yourself to where the money is going to come from. The construction guys told me that they will be starting the other developments very soon (Mazen said Botanica within this month and as I was leaving the last day, I saw some activities on that site from the bedroom balcony). Even if you hand back, it could take a long time for the money to come. It's a question you have to answer as an individual depending on your circumstances but you could end up handing the unit/units back and wait for the money for a long time. Is this a situation you are willing to entertain? What is plan B? I am going through the same thought process myself and have not made my mind up yet.

Sorry, not much to offer you here but hope this help :cheers:

They could happily have your unit and sell it on completion, make more money and then give you your money :dunno:

I think not.

Thanks Mackie. You are so much more of a superstar than even Cristiano. :cheers:

I think not.

If they did this, I would expect that any fx losses I made would be compensated and also interest paid for the time they had the money. But still, if I do choose to go down the hand back route, I'd rather have my money within the 30 days as stated in the contract.

If you return a unit on LPP, will you get everything paid so far to date back or only a percentage of that because LPP includes interest. eg. original price might be 1.2m but contract price is 1.8m as it includes all the interest to be paid over 15 years.

^^
My understanding is that they have to pay everything that you've paid so far because the purchase price on your contract is the higher price with all the interest added on it. I hope I am right on this, otherwise it's not worth handing back. Can anyone else confirm this?

Mackie what did Aslam say about BC ??

Everything paid to date will be handed back, if you exercise your right, that's what I was told by my contact at Select... but if they do only time will tell.

Can anyone confirm if they are on mechanical floor, and if so what progress has been made since last week..thanks.

Mackie

Well done on all the feedback. What did Aslam say about Botanica? Is it being shelved? The rumours are running rife!

13/March/2009

The Torch and Princess Tower

http://i44.tinypic.com/2qdaaes.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/swxu8l.jpg

Mackie, Your time and effort spent on behalf of us all is greatly appreciated.
However,I have a few questions for you.

Did you get to see RERA and get their opinion and feedback in regards not only on FM but also delays,compensation, future payments etc?

Were you able to get more or any info on how and where the escrow acccount details are and how investors can get hold of them?

Did SG have transparent details on the Land registration fees that we have all paid?

Rahail Aslam Chairman of Select Property Group


***Message to Investors***


And now, the end is near;
And so I face the final curtain...

My friends and investor’s , I’ll say it clear,
I’ll state my case, of which I’m certain.

I’ve lived a life that’s full, thanks to all your money.
I’ve traveled each and every highway in Dubai
And more, much more than this,
I did it my way.

Regrets, I’ve had a few;
But then again, too few to mention.
I did what I had to do
And saw it through without exemption.
But now my past has caught up with me….

I deviously planned and charted each course;
Each careful step along the byway,
I’ve bribed, cheated and robbed.
But more, much more than this,
I did it my way.

Yes, there were times, I’m sure I knew
When I bit off more than I could chew.
But the allure of so much money was too great
Yet through it all, when there was doubt;
I ate it up and spit it out.
I have to face it all and I need help to stand tall,
But, I’ll do it my way….

I’ve loved endless hookers,
I’ve laughed when you sent in the money,
I am crying because (THEY) know everything and the clocks ticking…..

I’ve not had my fill; my share of money that I’m losing.
It’s all too great…
And now, as my tears subside,

I find it all so amusing……

To think you lot fell for all that;
And may I say – to each and everyone of you I have duped you all and not in a shy way,
No, oh no not me,
I did it in a BIG way…..

For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, and no money, then he has naught.

To say the things he truly feels;
‘B----cks’ to you all...
Not the words of one who kneels.
The record will show and I will now have to take the blows

But I will do it my way!

Everything paid to date will be handed back, if you exercise your right, that's what I was told by my contact at Select... but if they do only time will tell.

Can anyone confirm if they are on mechanical floor, and if so what progress has been made since last week..thanks.



Sorry Jeffer's but there is no chance of getting money back.

1.We could all bust SP come July.

2.Wait for completion(app june 2010) I reckon.When your units will be with 30/40% less in purchase.

Take your pick and do the best for yourself and minimise your loses.

I have confirmation that money can be refunded. They want you to return your units so they can give them to angry Botanica investors.

BTW, for those that have not picked it up yet March update rec'd this evening from Select Member Services.

Mackie,

I would just like to say a big thank you for your efforts and recent report back to us on the Torch.

Your efforts and intelligent contribution to this thread are invaluable.

Your work puts the developers March update to shame.

Thanks again.

:cheers:

First time posting, but just wanted to say many thanks Mackie for the updates - informative amidst a climate of immense uncertainty

A lot of people here are talking about the interest portion of the LPP payments.

There is NO INTEREST CHARGED on the LPP. You pay roughly 1.8m for the property with payments made over 15 years. That is why you have to pay 1% to RERA on 1.8. and not 1.2m. This is not like a regular mortgage or loan where interest forms part of the payments.

Therefore if you do get your money back you should get exactly what you have paid to SP up to that date.

If you continue to pay to the end it is probably equivalent to a 7% fixed-rate mortgage.
Seemed good a couple of years ago. Not so sure now!

^^ There is a known UAE law ( I saw "known" loosely, as almost everyone I spoke to doesn't) that when you take out a loan (which is what the LPP is) and then decide to redeem it early, you pay interest on the loan for the entire amount of the loan period (in this case, 15 years), despite your early redemption.

Therefore, the Torch Select contracts were written with a higher purchase amount to offset this (but probably not as high as 7% over 15 years) should you wish to excercise your right of an early sale.

^^Dont think it was the 7% intertest date that attracted buyers 3 years ago it was the non status no questions asked lpp that gave every Tom Dick and Delboy the chance and SP beware they are all coming out the woodwork now! Have you noticed how many new members there are here now times are a little tough and the sniff of a return is in the air.

^^ There is a known UAE law ( I saw "known" loosely, as almost everyone I spoke to doesn't) that when you take out a loan (which is what the LPP is) and then decide to redeem it early, you pay interest on the loan for the entire amount of the loan period (in this case, 15 years), despite your early redemption.

Therefore, the Torch Select contracts were written with a higher purchase amount to offset this (but probably not as high as 7% over 15 years) should you wish to excercise your right of an early sale.


All SG /SP LPP contracts were written with a higher purchase price simply to be Sharia compliant.
See - http://www.accountancy.com.pk/articles.asp?id=174

since getting the letter fromSP/SG stating FM, has anyone got or heard of anyone who has achieved any concession - however small, that's over and above what was outlined in the letter?

Nothing to speak of I think, but know that liability as it stands is in Select properties hands, as they can not give any evidence to communication by Touch select back in 2005-06-07 dismissing FM as a reason. Also told that if given the go ahead (lots of £) we would be able to see if Select property was simply a shell entity set up to limit liability by the developer etc.

That's why we are now waiting for a response from Select property to clarify it position on why misleading advise was given to all with regards to FM.

& many thanks to Mackie :cheers:

^^ There is a known UAE law ( I saw "known" loosely, as almost everyone I spoke to doesn't) that when you take out a loan (which is what the LPP is) and then decide to redeem it early, you pay interest on the loan for the entire amount of the loan period (in this case, 15 years), despite your early redemption.

Therefore, the Torch Select contracts were written with a higher purchase amount to offset this (but probably not as high as 7% over 15 years) should you wish to excercise your right of an early sale.

The LPP is not a loan, Select master fiddler Adam Price has it on the record when we bought that it is not a loan.

^^ Well for all intents and purposes, it was a loan in so much as when I sold my apartment, the same rules for loans applied on my LPP and thus, affected my final profit. Of course, the fact that it was still profit negates any possible "loss" due to this. :)

It looks like they have cast the supports for the mech floor and are now preparing to put the shuttering in place for the floor to be poured.

Maybe they will finish this floor by the end of the month and then it could be back to 1 floor per week (x 26 left) so September is possible to complete the structure.

http://i41.tinypic.com/eff3bb.jpg

Of course, the fact that it was still profit negates any possible "loss" due to this. :)

you are speaking double dutch, rambling, madness

twixt truth and madness lieth a sliver of the extreme

[QUOTE=High Times;33641798]It looks like they have cast the supports for the mech floor and are now preparing to put the shuttering in place for the floor to be poured.

Maybe they will finish this floor by the end of the month and then it could be back to 1 floor per week (x 26 left) so September is possible to complete the structure.
---
They will have to be quick as the latest SP update has the structure complete by July 09??

http://i44.tinypic.com/1oltsp.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/jkhy5h.jpg

OK, Some positives before I get into the negatives again:

It will have to be in bite as I am in and out of meetings all day.

During my recent Visit to Dubai I met with a few people from Select. The first meeting was on site with OKBAH ABDUL KARIM (Project Director) and MAZEN HANANA (Project Manager), their back ground information can be found here:

http://www.select-group.ae/development.html

They have joined along with others in November 2008 and since then they have been meeting the milestones set by their project schedule.

The positives I took from that meeting and the site tour from top to bottom were mainly the two guys attitude, experience and their openness to discuss anything (a first for select, I can tell you that). I challenged them to a few issues on the Torch, point and other projects and I will explain this later. One of the main positives was their previous experience with the Dubai Municipality / Permits, certifications (especially Mazen, who has worked for the Municipality for over 9 years, I was told).

I was encouraged by their willingness to come out and meet me on their day off and not shy away form any question about any of their developments. I was also encouraged by their challenging attitude regarding meeting some of the dates on their schedules based on 4 & 5 days cycle (I was told that the 4&5 days were because of Concrete delivery and the day off…etc, which I can understand).

Again, I will stick with the positives for now and next time I log on, I will tell you more about this site visit and my meeting with Rahail.

It is worth knowing for now that I think this tower will be completed and the horrible white cookers and hoods are not the ones that will be installed.

Back again soon. (God, this positive thingy is too hard. I don't know how Docc does it all the time) :lol:

http://i42.tinypic.com/29d8nc0.jpg

nice photo!! .. some one can tell me which is the name of the third skyscraper (left to right) .. its amazing!! :) thanks!

^^
:ohno:
:badnews:

Thanks Mods

AltinD / malec, Please ban the_enforcer and delete all his messages. Also check his IP and see if he is someone else on this forum such as first_timer.

With reference to comments posted previously which have since been removed, we would urge readers of this forum not to act on any false claims - please remember that this is an unofficial public forum on which people can seemingly say what they wish without sanction, although we place trust in the moderators of these pages to act responsibility in the interests of all parties.
For anyone thinking of posting unverified claims, we will not take defamatory comments intended to damage our business lightly. Contact us with your real identity and we will happily set the record straight on any of the misinformation or rumours which seem to be innevitable at a time of global economic uncertainty but please, desist from scaremongering in the public domain.

With reference to comments posted previously which have since been removed, we would urge readers of this forum not to act on any false claims - please remember that this is an unofficial public forum on which people can seemingly say what they wish without sanction, although we place trust in the moderators of these pages to act responsibility in the interests of all parties.
For anyone thinking of posting unverified claims, we will not take defamatory comments intended to damage our business lightly. Contact us with your real identity and we will happily set the record straight on any of the misinformation or rumours which seem to be innevitable at a time of global economic uncertainty but please, desist from scaremongering in the public domain.

I wouldn't take such a high moral tone.. remember what we were sold and what is being delivered. ..and don't forget the contract is being interpreted in a manner that suits only one party.

http://i41.tinypic.com/zths9z.jpg

Why I don't have this view at home??!! :D

AltinD / malec, Please ban the_enforcer and delete all his messages. Also check his IP and see if he is someone else on this forum such as first_timer.

It's easy to get round IP addressing matches, simply RDP (Remote Desktop) to another windows server in a different datacentre or IP connection and sign up and operate posts from there. If you would like me to demonstrate, I have 160 servers, each on different IP addresses and a total of over 8000 public IP addresses under my own allocation control :)

SO DON'T UPSET ME :lol::nuts::lol:

Regards

The Torch

^^ yes I know that, but would have thought that someone as simple minded as "the_enforcer" would not know how to do such things.

nice photo!! .. some one can tell me which is the name of the third skyscraper (left to right) .. its amazing!! :) thanks!

Le Reve tower I think. You need a shed load of spamdulies to live there though.

The Torch

Nice update on your visit to Dubai. Thanks

The Torch

It's easy to get round IP addressing matches, simply RDP (Remote Desktop) to another windows server in a different datacentre or IP connection and sign up and operate posts from there. If you would like me to demonstrate, I have 160 servers, each on different IP addresses and a total of over 8000 public IP addresses under my own allocation control :)

SO DON'T UPSET ME :lol::nuts::lol:

Regards

The Torch

^^ You can still be traced if someone paid me enough money :)

BTW one of my sales guys spoke to you a few weeks ago. Was surprised to see your name on our CRM system. Really is a small world!

Take Care

Now way like a new way!
http://****************/h22.html
Hardly anyone minds.

^^ SPAM :bash: DO NOT CLICK !!

^^ You can still be traced if someone paid me enough money :)

BTW one of my sales guys spoke to you a few weeks ago. Was surprised to see your name on our CRM system. Really is a small world!

Take Care


or simply ride on the back of someone's open (no security) wireless connection...

Mackie
Are you keeping us in suspense about the insides of the apartments. Did you get any pictures of the insides? Loved your updates.

^^ You can still be traced if someone paid me enough money :)

BTW one of my sales guys spoke to you a few weeks ago. Was surprised to see your name on our CRM system. Really is a small world!

Take Care

Send me a private message as to what you do - interesting this small world :cheers:

http://i42.tinypic.com/67skd4.jpg

With reference to comments posted previously which have since been removed, we would urge readers of this forum not to act on any false claims - please remember that this is an unofficial public forum on which people can seemingly say what they wish without sanction, although we place trust in the moderators of these pages to act responsibility in the interests of all parties.
For anyone thinking of posting unverified claims, we will not take defamatory comments intended to damage our business lightly. Contact us with your real identity and we will happily set the record straight on any of the misinformation or rumours which seem to be innevitable at a time of global economic uncertainty but please, desist from scaremongering in the public domain.

Who is writing these anonymous posts? Who practices misinformation?
Could someone please send me a copy of the posts that have this anonymous and shady forum user select_property so worried? !!

Is the mechanical floor finished yet?

Who is writing these anonymous posts? Who practices misinformation?

Dont worry about it, they have been banned and posts deleted. Just some kid with too much time making up pretend news stories.

Very quiet on here the past few days, has everybody bailed out, sold up and left?

Waiting patiently for the next Mackie update.

^^
Yep, me too. Come on Mackie - you must have some more news for us!! I'm bored at work - need some news!

Any update on the mechanical floor?

http://i41.tinypic.com/2cnjt4l.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/2957exl.jpg

Dont worry about it, they have been banned and posts deleted. Just some kid with too much time making up pretend news stories.

I meant who is select_property?

http://i40.tinypic.com/1ifplz.jpg



http://i43.tinypic.com/1z5sqhg.jpg

What's going on here?
http://i42.tinypic.com/2n6p88.jpg

What's going on here?
http://i42.tinypic.com/2n6p88.jpg

Those floors were built on a Thursday evening... :lol:

www.selectproperty.com/grievence


Just read this.Would the individual in question please state their position and introduced themselves.

Sorry picked you up wrong. Removed web address for obvious reasons

www.selectproperty.com/grievence


Just read this.Would the individual in question please state their position and introduced themselves.

I came accross this earlier when i googled Bay Central Dubai
The website is
http://www.select-grievance-room.com/ not what you have written



The address I given is a letter from select property themselves.

I get the man at work grievence notice when I enter your address.How do I enter the grievence room.

correct spelling > http://www.selectproperty.com/grievance/

Hi all, I tend to agree with Select Property. Although the building is delayed I have found them to be professional, engaging, honest and open about progress, penalties, payments and advise on how to handle the current situation.

We are a close the building being completed. I believe that it will end up being a solid investment.

I also agree with Select Property.

There will always be idiots who want someone to blame for the economic downturn! These people who have purchased property in Dubai and hoped that they would become millionaires overnight, then suddenly the world economy suffers - and thus, dashing their dreams!

It is understandable you would be dissapointed, but investing in property should and has always been a long term play. The value of your property wether in Dubai, UK, USA, Singapore etc. has gone down substantially, this is only on paper - if you keep it when economies recover, you will do well - you just got to be patient!

I'm a commodities and FX trader, I have up and down days everyday!...believe me sometimes this roller coaster rides make you sick...but there is always a remedy and you will recover.

I'm going to ask Giles what this grievance procedure entails. If it involves matters being investigated by an independent third party, I'll give it a shot; otherwise, I'm about to become one of the people described on his grievance page:

"...an increasing number (although still a small minority) seek to publish their subjective opinions in the form of personal attacks intended to bring celebrity to their cause and damage both the reputations of professional companies and the confidence of other consumers."

I issued a termination notice on my three units in The Torch; the required 20 business days' notice expired on Sunday, so I should by now have received a refund of all the sums I've paid to date.

So far, the developer has refused to issue the refund, wilfully misreading clause 15.3 of the SPA to mean that buyers can only give notice after 30 June 2009. The document actually states:

‘If... the seller is unable to give possession and occupation of the Property by 30 June 2009, and such delay is due to Force Majeure, then either party shall have the right to terminate this Agreement'.

Given that the developer wrote to me and other buyers on 29 January 2009 invoking Force Majeure, admitting they won't be able to give possession and occupation this September, let alone June, and moving the anticipated completion date to January 2010, it's clear that this condition has been met and the termination notice must be accepted.

For the avoidance of doubt, if the developer continues to fail to pay me the sum I'm owed under a correctly issued termination notice, I will soon be making some very public allegations to the effect that the developer is either evading paying me, as a result of dishonesty, or is unable to do so, through insolvency.

If and when I adopt this course of action I hope other purchasers will recognise that this is not because I "do not want to engage with us and reject all fair and reasonable attempts to solve their individual issues" or am one of the "private individuals who are sadly suffering from financial difficulty or have been over-exposed to risk" mentioned on his website, but, rather, that I'm pursuing this course of action having done everything in my power to reach a fair resolution of a grievance, have come up against a stark refusal to honour the terms of the Sale and Purchase Agreement and will have, in extremis, decided that the only course of action remaining to me and other frustrated customers is to work together to shame the developer into meeting its obligations, if it's able to do so, and to warn other buyers of the possible risks they run in the meantime.

I very much hope that Select's promised (but not, so far, detailed) grievance procedure will be binding on the developer, which to date seems to consider itself unconstrained by the inconvenient detail of what's written in its own Sale and Purchase Agreements...

^^
Although I see your point of view on this, I think that clause 15.3 is open to different interpretations. I was discussing this with my partner (who is not a lawyer but works in commercial property and deals with a lot of contracts) and I was trying to argue the point that you are making (ie we know it won't be ready by 30 June and therefore we should be able to terminate now), but he said that in his opinion it is quite clear that you would have to wait until 30 June to give notice of termination. This is obviously the interpretation that SP are taking too.

^^

I agree that it's open to interpretation. People need to realise that the letter issued by the developer is not an amendment to the contract but merely a written communication. There is a difference.

^^Don't agree - whole thing hinges on the meaning of "by"...if they wanted it to say on 30th June 2009 then they should have used the word "on".

I am sure mistermark will be entitled to the acrued interest if they do not give him the money as per SPA.

^^
Although I see your point of view on this, I think that clause 15.3 is open to different interpretations. I was discussing this with my partner (who is not a lawyer but works in commercial property and deals with a lot of contracts) and I was trying to argue the point that you are making (ie we know it won't be ready by 30 June and therefore we should be able to terminate now), but he said that in his opinion it is quite clear that you would have to wait until 30 June to give notice of termination. This is obviously the interpretation that SP are taking too.

With respect, I think it could possibly look that way on very casual inspection, but once you read it in full, there's no ambiguity. Here's the wording:

‘If the Buyer has fulfilled all his obligations under the terms of this Agreement and the seller is unable to give possession and occupation of the Property by 30 June 2009, and such delay is due to Force Majeure, then either party shall have the right to terminate this Agreement by serving on the other twenty (20) Business Days notice in writing.’


The primary clause of the sentence is the last - 'either party shall have the right to terminate this Agreement by serving on the other twenty (20) Business Days notice in writing'.

There are three conditions that must be fulfilled for this to be possible, preceded by 'if' and followed by 'then':

(i) 'the Buyer has fulfilled all his obligations under the terms of this Agreement'; and
(ii) 'the seller is unable to give possession and occupation of the Property by 30 June 2009'; and
(iii) 'such delay is due to Force Majeure'

The seller, by a letter dated 29 January 2009, informed buyers that it was unable to give possession and occupation by September 2009, let alone June; it also stated that the delay is due to Force Majeure.

In my view there is therefore no way that the developer can do anything other than honour a termination notice given to a purchaser who is in possession of the 29 January notice and who has fulfilled the terms of the Agreement.

^^

I agree that it's open to interpretation. People need to realise that the letter issued by the developer is not an amendment to the contract but merely a written communication. There is a difference.

I agree that the letter is not an amendment to the contract. It is, however, written notification from a director of the company, Paul Brady, that it will be unable to give possession and occupation by 30 June 2009 and that such delay is due to Force Majeure. It is therefore proof that two of the three conditions needed to terminate the agreement under clause 15.3 have been met.

From flickr, dated March 19

http://i41.tinypic.com/zmjyhx.jpg

otherwise, I'm about to become one of the people described on his grievance page:

"...an increasing number (although still a small minority) seek to publish their subjective opinions in the form of personal attacks intended to bring celebrity to their cause and damage both the reputations of professional companies and the confidence of other consumers."

If and when I adopt this course of action I hope other purchasers will recognise that this is not because I "do not want to engage with us and reject all fair and reasonable attempts to solve their individual issues" or am one of the "private individuals who are sadly suffering from financial difficulty or have been over-exposed to risk" mentioned on his website, but, rather, that I'm pursuing this course of action having done everything in my power to reach a fair resolution of a grievance, have come up against a stark refusal to honour the terms of the Sale and Purchase Agreement and will have, in extremis, decided that the only course of action remaining to me and other frustrated customers is to work together to shame the developer into meeting its obligations, if it's able to do so, and to warn other buyers of the possible risks they run in the meantime.

I very much hope that Select's promised (but not, so far, detailed) grievance procedure will be binding on the developer, which to date seems to consider itself unconstrained by the inconvenient detail of what's written in its own Sale and Purchase Agreements...

Sorry, I was quite busy and still until Friday. I will respond to all questions posted over the last few days after my last post on the weekend.

:cheers:

So in short you were unhappy with your recent attempt at a private deal and now want all the troops to back you up, typical:ohno:

Good progress with the mechanical floor. Let's hope there isn't a massive cock-up again here. :)
Anyone know how long it's supposed to take? A month?

Mackie...?? I'm confused,, you go to Dubai and come back all happy and singing the praises of SP and all involved. Talk of you trip to the top of the tower but post no internal pics of apartments and a week later go all anti and mysterious.

Im all eyes and ears to your ''special new information''.

Yes were all sitting around our computers waiting you to grace us with your presence.......not!!

Good progress with the mechanical floor. Let's hope there isn't a massive cock-up again here. :)
Anyone know how long it's supposed to take? A month?


Assuming no cock ups. 6 weeks.

My lawyer just sent me this.


Xpress:News/Court asks developer to return Dh7.5m to investor.

Views please.

correct spelling > http://www.selectproperty.com/grievance/
Agree with select BUT they need to put the house in order with regard to paymnets along RERA recommendations nowadays AND look at reducing prices in developments which were clearly oversold like DEYAAR are doing

Torch is staring to great now though cant wait till Aug 2010 (yes revising my estimate) to get my keys

TP

My lawyer just sent me this.


Xpress:News/Court asks developer to return Dh7.5m to investor.

Views please.no link ??

no link ??

www.xpress4me.com/

http://www.xpress4me.com/news/uae/dubai/20012551.html

That was for the Remraam development. However it has been more than 60 days since the registration payments have been made for the Torch and they have not yet been registered so maybe this could also be applied for Torch investors who can not afford to continue payments due to delays or do not want to wait until July.

taken today.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2qdy98n.jpg


http://i39.tinypic.com/htxvye.jpg


http://i42.tinypic.com/2iqy22v.jpg


http://i40.tinypic.com/sn2zag.jpg

COME TT CATCH PINNACLE !!

So that seemed a lot less painful that the last double floor fiasco..

The cladding seems to have slowed or even stopped!

The cladding seems to have slowed or even stopped!

All efforts swapped to the interiors I guess.. let me re-phrase that.. I HOPE !!
Cheers for the pics Joannides.

All efforts swapped to the interiors I guess.. let me re-phrase that.. I HOPE !!
Cheers for the pics Joannides.

Unlikely, cladding fixers are not very good at drywall or kitchen fitting.

Unlikely, cladding fixers are not very good at drywall or kitchen fitting.

Judging by the mock up flats neither are the Kitchen fitters! j/k

Unlikely, cladding fixers are not very good at drywall or kitchen fitting.

Having seen the pictures of kitchens that have gone into other Select properties perhaps they should seriously consider a staff switch around !!! :lol:

My lawyer just sent me this.


Xpress:News/Court asks developer to return Dh7.5m to investor.

Views please.

^^
Interesting. What does your lawyer advise about this? It sounds like we may have to go through a long legal battle with them appealing to go down this route? What do you think?

The cladding seems to have slowed or even stopped!
^^^^ I would think that all the cladding fixers are over at The Point

[QUOTE=Samantha Baker;34197276]^^
Interesting. What does your lawyer advise about this? It sounds like we may have to go through a long legal battle with them appealing to go down this route? What do you think?[/QUOTE
I never got the story on this ? -the link worked but didnt take me to the courts case news ?

^^
Use the link which Dubai Steve posted which is:

http://www.xpress4me.com/news/uae/dubai/20012551.html

and it takes you straight to the article.

As everyone probably expected would happen anyway all of these past posts got deleted.
Now this does not mean this website has been censored like the dubai newspapers but that claims as drastic as what was claimed in the last day or two should not be posted here for obvious reasons. If there's only a hunch and not proof then certainly don't post, we don't want want hunches to bring down 80 storey towers now do we. :)
If people actually have proof of claims drastic enough then go to the papers, once published then it can be posted here of course.

I think SP judged rightly that a lot of people would cancel. So to buy time and conserve cash the FM was called.

What can happen in 6 months?

Credit crunch easing, fingers crossed.

@Mackie did you say you have interior pictures?

As everyone probably expected would happen anyway all of these past posts got deleted.
Now this does not mean this website has been censored like the dubai newspapers but that claims as drastic as what was claimed in the last day or two should not be posted here for obvious reasons. If there's only a hunch and not proof then certainly don't post, we don't want want hunches to bring down 80 storey towers now do we. :)
If people actually have proof of claims drastic enough then go to the papers, once published then it can be posted here of course.

Thanks MALEC

Now it would nice if SP posted some construction news/information/pictures

Like when are the floors moving up again - thats what I am interested in

I'm not going to reopen old wounds. All I will say is this. If the mood is that taking the story to the media could increase, rather than reduce, the chances of the project failing and leaving us out of pocket, I'm prepared to hold off for the present - on one condition.

The condition is this: when I and others issue their termination notices after 30 June, and after 20 business days, the developer is mysteriously finding reasons not to pay us - which they will - those who said I was mistaken will be in the front of the queue of those willing to work with me to bring the matter to the attention of the media.

I'm glad most of the things needed to be deleted were deleted but there was one from High Times which was worth reading but that has also gone.

Lets get The Torch finished.

I'm glad most of the things needed to be deleted were deleted but there was one from High Times which was worth reading but that has also gone.

Lets get The Torch finished.

I agree and I for one am glad most of these posts have been deleted..

I actually gave high times his post back before deleting. Anyway all those deleted posts can be brought back if we want to so they're not totally gone.

THEPOINT - I understand your frustrations . . I'm an investor in PT. Why has construction virtually stopped with The Torch, PT, and other projects in the Marina?

malec, Dubai Steve, Ben40, anyone please?

^^ Should be back to normal speed again now that the double height service floor is done.

The next floor to be cast will be the double-height service floor, and due to the change in plate size this was always expected to much longer than the previous floors which were being achieved in roughly 6 days. Once the tower rises above this service floor in late March we are expecting to see progress return to one floor every 5-6 days. Currently the day shift averages around 1000 workers on The Torch, and with external cladding and internal fitting continuing as planned we hope that purchasers will be getting some assurance now that the developer is fully committed to delivering the project in the shortest sensible time frame from here on in.

Well its pouring with rain here ikn Dubai, yes I will say that again, it's pissing down, I got out of London because of this, how odd to get it here.

Anyway the Torch is still working, all the cranes have there lights on, and I can here the crashing and banging, it looks like it will overtake its sisters soon.

Not the sign of a developer being in trouble, is it now, also coming out of Spinney's tonight and looking up at the building, it really is on the front line and has cracking views, if they keep that daft MST shelved, and I am sure they will, it will be 10 years before anything blocks the torches view.

Sorry I have to go in, as I am on my Balcony nicking someone els'e Wi-Fi, and its to bloody cold and wet.

Love from Dubai

ALan Godfery

Alan,Better there than here in London, we have had all four weather seasons today!!!.Next time you are in your balcony take some photographs, including some night shots.

Well its pouring with rain here ikn Dubai, yes I will say that again, it's pissing down, I got out of London because of this, how odd to get it here.

Anyway the Torch is still working, all the cranes have there lights on, and I can here the crashing and banging, it looks like it will overtake its sisters soon.

Not the sign of a developer being in trouble, is it now, also coming out of Spinney's tonight and looking up at the building, it really is on the front line and has cracking views, if they keep that daft MST shelved, and I am sure they will, it will be 10 years before anything blocks the torches view.

Sorry I have to go in, as I am on my Balcony nicking someone els'e Wi-Fi, and its to bloody cold and wet.

Love from Dubai

ALan Godfery
Still envy you Alan !!
Hope MST doesnt happen and ae have a park there
not impossible hope now ?

I actually gave high times his post back before deleting. Anyway all those deleted posts can be brought back if we want to so they're not totally gone.

Could someone let me see the posts?

http://www.ofb.net/~epstein/sl/20031031b-posts.jpg

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2803/dsc00349m.jpg (http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00349m.jpg)

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/6781/dsc00343a.jpg (http://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00343a.jpg)

from the storm last night, they worked all the way through that lighting, and I wouldn' have there job for all the tea in China, the two crane drivers on the torch, I think are in love, they are always together, they synchronize, and when they park up they are always crossed or left in the same position.

the are always at full stretch, and from where I am sitting it does not look like a company that doesn't want to finish this building.

Alan Godfrey

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/439/dsc00355crf.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00355crf.jpg)

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/808/dsc00366bsg.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00366bsg.jpg)

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/855/dsc00360u.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00360u.jpg)

These are awesome Alan,many thanks.
Keep'em coming.Are you keeping an eye on the floor count?

Guess what... Even Botanica Towers is being prepared to start construction now!

This definately is NOT a sign the company is in any trouble!

Can someone remind me why BC and Botanica both have at least a 3 month payment holiday but the Torch does not, even though it will be years late?

Botanica dont, where did you read it did.

^^ http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=34406640&postcount=546

Likely is a long way of concrete in the big world of SP.

Can someone remind me why BC and Botanica both have at least a 3 month payment holiday but the Torch does not, even though it will be years late?

It's because the developer is flush with cash and can afford to keep building the Torch while also making goodwill gestures to its customers... maybe.

Seriously, I reckon it's because the Torch is far enough down the line they're banking on there not being a payment strike.

March Construction Updates Now Online.

Construction Pictures are really great don't you think.:ohno::ohno:

^^ :lol: yes looks like they did not make any effort this month. Would like to learn more of the interiors.

ps. Select, your website (MySelect section) is not working correctly yet in the new Internet Explorer 8, only works in compatibility mode.

Great pictures Select,:ohno: now we all know what great views we will get from the 40th floor,only problem with that is half of the apartment owners are not that high so we won't be able to see that views.I thought that we may have been able to see some real interiors not the mock up's that have been shown before.
Mackie I seem to remember from previous posts that you had Interior pictures from your latest visit any chance of posting them so we can all see what they really look like :cheers:

Dubai Steve - Are you located in Dubai?

I just read an article about the cost saving made by developers due to lower construction costs, with steel and concrete prices reduced by up to 50% than the prices of last year, and the number of developers that are trying to make the most of it by speeding up their construction on partial and nearly finished buildings. I think we fall into this bracket and see it as another positive sign out of so much gloom. Off course I doubt the savings will be passed on to us the customers?

I think Select had a fixed price contract to build the Torch so didnt loose out when prices went silly in 2007/2008, and so wont benefit now that prices are falling back to 2006 levels. I guess they will remain neutral through the project.

Excellent strategy to engage in though, and one worthy of some praise.

I belive the Select Group also owns it's own aluminium extraction plant in the UAE so would benefit from the economics of lateral integration here too as the cladding is alluminum.

Have camera's been banned in the UAE in a recent law or something.

Any progress past the mechanical floor?

03/April/2009

The Torch

http://i44.tinypic.com/qq1p9g.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/2s9wplg.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/xcisyo.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/9kpit0.jpg

03/April/2009

The Torch

http://i43.tinypic.com/nwyalf.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/242h8qx.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/2m2crhy.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/fxuxia.jpg

Imre's update on March 5th;

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/9463/imresolt72.jpg

Needs to get going again!!

SPOT THE WORKER!!!

http://i42.tinypic.com/2s9wplg.jpg

This is cr*p.

One month for one floor is ridiculous.
O.K. I know it's double height but even so!

I hate to say it but this doesn't look good.
Where's the progress on the cladding for this past month?

Needs to get going again!!

http://i44.tinypic.com/qs17kp.jpg

SPOT THE WORKER!!!

http://i42.tinypic.com/2s9wplg.jpg

This is cr*p.

One month for one floor is ridiculous.
O.K. I know it's double height but even so!

I hate to say it but this doesn't look good.
Where's the progress on the cladding for this past month?

I presume this was Friday Picture so they wouldn't be working ?
Also I think the cladding and glass above the 1st mechanical floor is progressing ?

http://i44.tinypic.com/qs17kp.jpg

:laugh:

Barry never was a great communicator, not much of a footballer now either IMO.

05/April/2009

Princess Tower and The Torch

http://i40.tinypic.com/2n2kqh.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/lbse1.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/2qmmete.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/zti24y.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2dhhegk.jpg

Seems plenty of workers around here IMRE
- rumour mongers are out again saying tower is on hold
- only disgruntled investors i guess

Thanks for the update Imre. :cheers:

Are these long distance Tallest Block shots taken from your place in JLT with zooooooom lens ? :)

Seems plenty of workers around here IMRE
- rumour mongers are out again saying tower is on hold
- only disgruntled investors i guess

Not a chance this is on hold, there are ALWAYS people working (bar Friday) on it, its just a service floor can take anywhere from 4-6 weeks to finish on any building and that’s if there are no 'hick ups' at all.

Thanks for the update Imre. :cheers:

Are these long distance Tallest Block shots taken from your place in JLT with zooooooom lens ? :)

thanks:)

pics were taken from the Goldcrest roof.

http://i41.tinypic.com/dvhtfk.jpg

^^thats what i call a view!
great to have you back imre!

www.selectproperty.com/grievence


Just read this.Would the individual in question please state their position and introduced themselves.




ALSO JUST SEEN THIS.
www.select-grievence-room.com

^^ The person that wrote that (Mr. Holger Weinmann from Germany) must be getting a law suit delivered to his house below shorty.

http://i43.tinypic.com/5ytahe.jpg

^^ Isn't that a white van parked just outside the home? Hm ...

Any thoughts on the furniture packages. What are prices like in Dubai for furniture eg: leather suites? Would it be a hastle to furnish it ourselves?
A furniture package sounds good and with little hastle but the prices seem a bit steep. I notice a 2 bedoom has 2x2 seater (faux) leather couches. I think I would prefer a 3 and 2 chairs, maybe even a bed settee.
I have just renovated a 5 bedroomed (all en suite) house and made it into a guest house and furnished it for less than £10,000. Don't know, maybe it's dearer in Dubai.

Furniture already, you are a few years early. Panorama bbc1 tonight dubai workers exploited, may be good viewing.

We got a brochure sent from SP asking for £1000 deposit if we want their package.

SP obviously think Shetland is far more remote and out of touch than it really is! Keep your grand in your pocket for now. I built Sullom Voe about 30 years back, is it still standing?

Yes, they are going to build a gas plant there next year. I probably served you with the "bears" in the site canteens. Those were the good old days.

Probably, I was at Toft and Firth, bad times when that one went off the end at Sumborough, still we got it completed.

Great render by 'Dubai Addiction':

http://i40.tinypic.com/4u807k.jpg

Excellent render- I had to do a double take when I first saw it!

Any thoughts on the furniture packages. What are prices like in Dubai for furniture eg: leather suites? Would it be a hastle to furnish it ourselves?
A furniture package sounds good and with little hastle but the prices seem a bit steep. I notice a 2 bedoom has 2x2 seater (faux) leather couches. I think I would prefer a 3 and 2 chairs, maybe even a bed settee.
I have just renovated a 5 bedroomed (all en suite) house and made it into a guest house and furnished it for less than £10,000. Don't know, maybe it's dearer in Dubai.

Plenty of deals and plenty of scope, they all deliver quite quick as most have big warehouses around the docks. I recently did my other marina place quite cheap in about a week using Ikea, Bo Concept and a couple of the other furniture places in MOE. The builders were still around so managed to get them to paint the interior to my colour choice after buying the paint ext. Other more major works such as refitting the kitchen, bathrooms and changing tiling ext can also be done depended on how much you want to spend if you are living or renting ext. A mate just fully carpeted his place on the marina for around £2000.

Thanks Ben for that info, we're going to wait till we look around in Dubai nearer completion.

Great render by 'Dubai Addiction':

http://i40.tinypic.com/4u807k.jpg
Fantastic render !

What will be on the top of the torch ? Bars? Resturant ? Viewing ?

Anyone have any idea ?

^ A big torch, ie an illuminated roundel. I think the idea is that they will sell it as an advertising fixture.

Mackie1964, did you not say you had photos of the interiors which you were going to post?

http://www.quetschluft.de/dubai/300_3368_qa.jpg

http://www.quetschluft.de/dubai/300_3373_qa.jpg

http://www.quetschluft.de/dubai/300_3380_qa.jpg

^^ Was just about to post them, thanks :cheers2:

So, I've finished my Torch model today and here's the result

http://i44.tinypic.com/2cmvhx4.jpg

Personally I think it turned out quite well (I didn't know how the base was supposed to be designed). I thought maybe it's a good idea if I make a huge sized render for you Torch fanatics to (well I don't know) print it or something? When someone is interested, let me know!

09/April/2009

The Torch

http://i44.tinypic.com/1444ep3.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/280tvt4.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/2lysex.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/30hn6ed.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/1z1cpbb.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/1125rx5.jpg

Cladding going on well on Sea and Pinnacle side - moving off mech. floor now top out by Sept ?

09/April/2009

The Torch and Princess Tower

http://i43.tinypic.com/mt0z2x.jpg

09/April/2009

The Torch

http://i42.tinypic.com/2jeo87b.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/b3rhmv.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/2ry3p5k.jpg

36 new photos of The Torch uploading now here , www.dubaiupdate.com (picasa)

Thanks Imre, brilliant photos.

Has anyone managed to get a refund? if so how did you mange to do it?

Has anyone managed to get a refund? if so how did you mange to do it?

I don't believe the developer has yet honoured a refund request following the issue of a termination notice under clause 15.3. I gave notice in February; they rejected it, claiming that notice can't be given until 30 June 2009, a position not justified by the wording of the SPA.

Tomorrow I'm flying out to Dubai at my own expense to meet with the developer under the dispute resolution procedure; if the outcome isn't positive I'm also due to instruct a solicitor, as I don't for one minute believe that the developer's ability or inclination to honour the terms of the agreement will increase after 30 June.

Does this mean the mechanical floor is complete and they are moving on? |I think these columns are poured after the slab.

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3393/b3rhmv.jpg

^^

Yes, all of the supports for the balcony pillars for the next floor are now in place. They will now be putting in place the next floor slab supports ready to pour floor 57.

Hopefully they can get back to a 6 floor cycle for the next few months now.

http://i40.tinypic.com/j809kx.jpg

I don't believe the developer has yet honoured a refund request following the issue of a termination notice under clause 15.3. I gave notice in February; they rejected it, claiming that notice can't be given until 30 June 2009, a position not justified by the wording of the SPA.

Tomorrow I'm flying out to Dubai at my own expense to meet with the developer under the dispute resolution procedure; if the outcome isn't positive I'm also due to instruct a solicitor, as I don't for one minute believe that the developer's ability or inclination to honour the terms of the agreement will increase after 30 June.

Who did you send notice too, select in Dubai? Think I may have to get a solicitor in Dubai, any recommendations?

Unless I was desperate for cash I for one would not be looking for a refund of what I invested. On completion I think the Torch apartments will be worth a helluva lot more than we paid for them. If you can afford to ride the crunch it will be worth it in the end IMHO.

^^ I agree very much so, the Torch will be saleable at leat double the original price within a few years, IF you can afford to ride the wait.

Projected Completion Milestones

Structure will be complete by 15th Jul 09
External Cladding, temporary power connection will be complete by 31st Aug 09
Basement and access will be complete by 10th Nov 09.
Owners’ orientation will commence in the following sequence:
1st group of customers: up to level 28 by 15th Sep 09
2nd group of customers: up to level 54 by 15th Oct 09
3rd group of customers: up to level 77 by 10th Nov 09


Just a reminder.

I've recently been dealing with my potential losses at another development and trying to rescue the situation. I now just laugh at the situation re delay compensation issue at the Torch. It's amazing how the potential for a really serious loss puts the situation here into some perspective (at least for me).

I made a visit to the marina a couple of weeks back and it had been exactly a year since my previous visit. Strangely in these dark days I was much more impressed and could see much more potential for the marina than I saw a year ago. Then - I was quite disappointed, - but this time I found much more atmosphere and a walk along "The Walk" made me feel - "well actually - this is a pretty nice place to come to and spend some time!" I know it's a funny time to become convinced but I've seen the light at the end of the tunnel (and I didn't have my head between my legs at the time guys - honest!!) and I can really believe that an appartment in the Torch may well be a sought after and valuable commodity a few years down the line. I'm hanging on to my place!

I've recently been dealing with my potential losses at another development and trying to rescue the situation. I now just laugh at the situation re delay compensation issue at the Torch. It's amazing how the potential for a really serious loss puts the situation here into some perspective (at least for me).

I made a visit to the marina a couple of weeks back and it had been exactly a year since my previous visit. Strangely in these dark days I was much more impressed and could see much more potential for the marina than I saw a year ago. Then - I was quite disappointed, - but this time I found much more atmosphere and a walk along "The Walk" made me feel - "well actually - this is a pretty nice place to come to and spend some time!" I know it's a funny time to become convinced but I've seen the light at the end of the tunnel (and I didn't have my head between my legs at the time guys - honest!!) and I can really believe that an appartment in the Torch may well be a sought after and valuable commodity a few years down the line. I'm hanging on to my place!

I,m with you Yousuf some of the doubting guys from this thread ought to have been invested in LHB to get some REAL stress !!

Keep it up SP although i think above schedule is way out already but surprise me please

The Point build is surprising me now so why not THE TORCH next !!

Who did you send notice too, select in Dubai? Think I may have to get a solicitor in Dubai, any recommendations?

I sent the notice to Paul Brady at Torch Select in Dubai, also faxing and emailing a copy to Select Property in the UK. The former is required by the SPA; the latter is a courtesy so they're in the loop.

As for a solicitor, in the past I've had some bad experiences with Dubai-based lawyers, most of whom couldn't find their a***s with both hands. I'm due to meet with one tomorrow morning who seems promising by email and comes highly recommended, but for now I'm reserving judgement...

Unless I was desperate for cash I for one would not be looking for a refund of what I invested. On completion I think the Torch apartments will be worth a helluva lot more than we paid for them. If you can afford to ride the crunch it will be worth it in the end IMHO.

I agree that if/when the Dubai market picks up, Torch apartments will be worth a lot more than the refund value, or indeed the open market resale value, today.

However, I still think the prudent thing to do is to go for a refund, for the following reasons:

1. Chances are you paid around AED 1000/sq ft if you reserved when they were first released. I'm in Dubai right now, in the Grosvenor House Hotel. This morning I met with an estate agent who gave me a list of completed resales in developments such as Iris Blue, Marina Heights Tower, Marinascape and more that were priced around this figure, but with a strong indication that there could be around 20 percent movement for a ready, cash buyer

2. A completed apartment has zero risk of being unfinished due to the developer hitting financial difficulties. While I don't want to go back into controversial territory, clause 15.3 says what it says, and I invite people to draw their own conclusions from the fact that, to the best of my knowledge, nobody who has terminated their contracts has yet received a refund

3. A completed apartment can generate rental income today, not at some point in the future, if and when it is ever finished

4. There is no question mark about the quality of finish, kitchen fit-out etc: what you see is what you get

5. Having seen the Torch this morning, the developer is kidding you when it talks about completion in January 2010. Personally I don't believe the project will be completed and handed over by January 2011. The notion that it's nine months away is pure fantasy

Projected Completion Milestones

Structure will be complete by 15th Jul 09
External Cladding, temporary power connection will be complete by 31st Aug 09
Basement and access will be complete by 10th Nov 09.
Owners’ orientation will commence in the following sequence:
1st group of customers: up to level 28 by 15th Sep 09
2nd group of customers: up to level 54 by 15th Oct 09
3rd group of customers: up to level 77 by 10th Nov 09


Just a reminder.

I'm going to see the developer on Monday. I'm willing to bet the AED 1.95m they owe me in refunds against the same sum from them that they won't be able to complete the structure by 31 August 209, let alone the mid-July date they've given themselves.

Ask your questions personally to Sheikh Mohammed,PM and Ruler of Dubai.
Todays GULF NEWS.

Force Majeure?

Mistermark I do hope you are having a great time at GH. I would be very interested in the agent who has got Iris Blue or Marinascape for 1000psf plus a 20% movement! Tell you what I would be happy without the 20% movement can you list his or her contact number here please? Best I can find is Paloma 02 highish floor 2098 sq ft 2mill with a bit of movement.

I sent the notice to Paul Brady at Torch Select in Dubai, also faxing and emailing a copy to Select Property in the UK. The former is required by the SPA; the latter is a courtesy so they're in the loop.

As for a solicitor, in the past I've had some bad experiences with Dubai-based lawyers, most of whom couldn't find their a***s with both hands. I'm due to meet with one tomorrow morning who seems promising by email and comes highly recommended, but for now I'm reserving judgement...

Why do you say that Paul Brady is a director of Torch Select Ltd. registered in Jebel Ali Free Zone?

I've seen an email from Paul.Brady@select-group.ae, with Select Group logo inserted, the email was signed

Paul Brady
Director Of Asset Management
Dubai Select LLC

requesting land registration money be sent to "SELECT DEVELOPMENTS LIMITED.", and at the bottom of the email "The SELECT GROUP trademark and accompanying logo are used by Dubai Select LLC under licence from Select Holdings Ltd. Seychelles."

No mention of Torch Select Ltd.

Mistermark I do hope you are having a great time at GH. I would be very interested in the agent who has got Iris Blue or Marinascape for 1000psf plus a 20% movement! Tell you what I would be happy without the 20% movement can you list his or her contact number here please? Best I can find is Paloma 02 highish floor 2098 sq ft 2mill with a bit of movement.

I recommend Dubizzle.com as a start point. And bear in mind, there's often little relationship between the asking price and what people will take - the asking price reflects when the property went on the market, the selling price depends on how badly they want to sell. Tomorrow I'm seeing a 1-bed in Iris Blue priced at nearly AED 1800/sq ft that the agent is telling me will take 900 - and that's before any negotiation.

Why do you say that Paul Brady is a director of Torch Select Ltd. registered in Jebel Ali Free Zone?

I've seen an email from Paul.Brady@select-group.ae, with Select Group logo inserted, the email was signed

Paul Brady
Director Of Asset Management
Dubai Select LLC

requesting land registration money be sent to "SELECT DEVELOPMENTS LIMITED.", and at the bottom of the email "The SELECT GROUP trademark and accompanying logo are used by Dubai Select LLC under licence from Select Holdings Ltd. Seychelles."

No mention of Torch Select Ltd.

Interesting point. I believe in the 29 January Force Majeure he signs himself 'director' and in other correspondence he has signed himself 'for and on behalf of Torch Select Ltd'. I guess it's just about possible that other, unnamed directors of Torch Select Limited could claim that he wasn't an authorised director of their company, just as they're claiming that they could surprise us all and hand over the apartments by the end of June, but I hope not. In any case, on Monday I'm supposed to be meeting 'the directors' under the dispute resolution procedure, so I'll see who they turn out to be.

Mistermark I do hope you are having a great time at GH. I would be very interested in the agent who has got Iris Blue or Marinascape for 1000psf plus a 20% movement! Tell you what I would be happy without the 20% movement can you list his or her contact number here please? Best I can find is Paloma 02 highish floor 2098 sq ft 2mill with a bit of movement.

There seems to be a lot of silly prices quoted by some foilks until you come to buy a decent rentable apartment ???
It is a shame this is happening because it destroys condfidence in the market at this time and is not justified 1000 aed psf are around yes but not 20% less no way !!

There seems to be a lot of silly prices quoted by some foilks until you come to buy a decent rentable apartment ???
It is a shame this is happening because it destroys condfidence in the market at this time and is not justified 1000 aed psf are around yes but not 20% less no way !!

Honestly, there are units on Dubizzle and with agents, listed at asking prices of AED 850 or thereabouts. They're real, and I've viewed a couple so far.

One thing I have found though is this: quite often the lowest prices per square foot are for apartments that are large relative to the number of bedrooms. I think this is because people buy property in Dubai on a per square foot basis but rent it on a bedrooms basis. So, for instance, a 1100 sq ft one-bed rents for the same figure as a 900 sq ft one. If you pay the same price per square foot for it, you end up with a lower yield. So some of the cheaper apartments turn out to be large relative to the number of rooms - which is great if you plan to live there, but bad for letting.

Can someone explain why the Torch apartments have not been registered with the land registry yet?!

^^

A statement from Select is needed here.

I would also like confirmation that the payment I made to Select several months ago in relation to registration was immediately forwarded to the Land Registry.

I made my Land Registry payments to SP for both my TT and BC units in August last year and both are not registered at the Land Registry yet, it's been over 8 months now. All I have is a receipt from SP acknowledging the payment to them. This is very worrying.

Their previous excuse (training on the oqod system) is no longer valid after 8 months. It should take no more than 10 minutes to register an apartment for anyone with basic computer skills. My understanding from RERA is that a full refund is possible should the developer fail to register the apartment. I fail to see why we were pressured into paying the 2% fee last August with a statement that it must be done within 60 days of law 13 and they have yet to register it!