#COMPLETED: THE TORCH, 84F Res, 338m [Archive] - Page 41

Saggy_Toad

June 18th, 2009, 08:21 AM

Great pics, Imre and Saggy Toad. To these two guys, and anyone else who has been in the building and on a high floor, experiencing the various views, if you had a choice between owning a type 06 or a type 08 on a high floor, which would you choose? The 06s have windows all facing the marina and a balcony facing diagonally towards the mouth of the marina, while 08s have rooms all facing the sea and a balcony facing diagonally Palm Jumeirah. The 08 in question is high enough to look over the top of the towers between The Torch and the sea.

If I was to turn back time and select a different a different aspect, I would have to pick either 08 or 01. In an perfect world I would buy an entire floor and have the 360 degree views!! The good thing is that no matter where you are in the Torch you get a view of something other than your neighbours! Even in my 02 you can stand on the balcony and look straight down the palm to the Atlantis. But if you would prefer to have a view of the golf course I'll give you an extra fiver and swap you for your 08!!!

charlie big potatoes

June 18th, 2009, 03:09 PM

Taken yesterday. Last night until midnight they were pumping concrete, min a dozen 6 cube mixers so anothher floor plate poured. http://i41.tinypic.com/95pq2p.jpg

charlie big potatoes

June 18th, 2009, 03:12 PM

http://i42.tinypic.com/zxpo28.jpg

Imre

June 18th, 2009, 03:53 PM

Great pics, Imre and Saggy Toad. To these two guys, and anyone else who has been in the building and on a high floor, experiencing the various views, if you had a choice between owning a type 06 or a type 08 on a high floor, which would you choose? The 06s have windows all facing the marina and a balcony facing diagonally towards the mouth of the marina, while 08s have rooms all facing the sea and a balcony facing diagonally Palm Jumeirah. The 08 in question is high enough to look over the top of the towers between The Torch and the sea.

I prefer the marina view , type 06.

Anjam

June 18th, 2009, 04:14 PM

Many thanks to all those that have posted the recent pictures. :cheers:

High Times

June 18th, 2009, 04:44 PM

Great pics, Imre and Saggy Toad. To these two guys, and anyone else who has been in the building and on a high floor, experiencing the various views, if you had a choice between owning a type 06 or a type 08 on a high floor, which would you choose?

I prefer the marina view , type 06.

I was up on the 67th floor with Imre on Monday and the views are simply stunning all ways.

The sea facing side will have great views towards the palm and the sea. There is a sufficient gap between Emirates Crown and Princess Tower to get a sea view. As shown here.

http://i41.tinypic.com/rwjw38.jpg

The media city facing side will get a sea view between Le Reve and Princess Tower too. Even the golf course side up high will offer stunning views inland.

In my opinion the ultimate views are from marina facing units up high. They were more expensive for a reason, and as Imre says, arguably the best views in Dubai.

15/June/2009

Dubai Marina and JLT from The Torch

one of the best view in Dubai from here:)

http://i40.tinypic.com/2pjk5.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/spu6fc.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/fn5k3t.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/nxkun4.jpg

arfie

June 18th, 2009, 05:06 PM

In my opinion the ultimate views are from marina facing units up high. They were more expensive for a reason, and as Imre says, arguably the best views in Dubai.

Lets hope these views are there for years to come!

jeffers

June 18th, 2009, 05:16 PM

High times, what was you feeling about getting a view over Emirates Crown once up another 10 floors or so from the 3 bed layout that you know on the marina and sea facing corner, with what you saw from 67 do you think that a view out to sea over E.C. will be possible ?? Enjoy your hols. :)

High Times

June 18th, 2009, 05:42 PM

Lets hope these views are there for years to come!

At least 5 years. In my opinion they wont build anything taller than 40 - 50 floors here. I think it will be another yacht club or similar here.

High times, what was you feeling about getting a view over Emirates Crown once up another 10 floors or so from the 3 bed layout that you know on the marina and sea facing corner, with what you saw from 67 do you think that a view out to sea over E.C. will be possible ??

Not possible. F***ing GUARANTEED mate. :banana: This is why i bought this high Jeffers.

These pics were taken from the 66th construction floor so thats the 60th residential floor. You are level with the observatory bar at the Harbour hotel.

http://i39.tinypic.com/awp5hf.jpg

This is looking at Emirates Crown from the same floor. EC has 5 more floors and the Crown feature is around 3 floors. I reckon another 8 floors and you will see over the top easily.

http://i42.tinypic.com/28jctp2.jpg

So residential floors numbered over 68 ish will have some of the best sea views in Dubai looking down the coast towards Jebel Ali and Abu Dhabi. Infinity tower is only 73 floors now and there is a rumour that the 101 floor Damac Heights 2 is being downsized too.

I think the credit crunch is just awsome. The best thing that has ever happened to Dubai. :cheers:

jeffers

June 18th, 2009, 06:30 PM

Thanks for the confirmation High Times and thanks for sharing the pics, if you feel that 68 upwards will clear the crown, then Happy Days as I'm just a little above that, exciting times.:)

Ben40

June 18th, 2009, 09:20 PM

Palm view

http://i43.tinypic.com/301dgfs.jpg

Hi Imre, Thanks for the pics, great stuff as usual.. Was this picture also from 66 floor facing the Palm, and does it look like the view will remain or is the building in front still going up, and do we think this will be the final floor numbering or will they renumber from the podium? sorry for all the questions but think this may be mine or close to it.. B

AltinD

June 18th, 2009, 09:53 PM

^^ Whaat you see is only the central core of that building. Most of that "view" will be blocked by The Princess Tower

Naz UK

June 18th, 2009, 10:11 PM

Ooh, way to kill our hopes and dreams Atlin-D, thank you! :(

:D

Sorry, i suddenly thought it was June 2008. :D

MANUTD

June 18th, 2009, 11:38 PM

^^ Whaat you see is only the central core of that building. Most of that "view" will be blocked by The Princess Tower
We are still hoping Tameer run out of cash and finsh at 55 :lol::lol:

High Times

June 19th, 2009, 08:32 AM

http://i44.tinypic.com/2jesqs9.jpg

jeffers

June 19th, 2009, 11:09 PM

Taken from Bar 44 19th June

http://i44.tinypic.com/sb55kj.jpg

scoobudubai

June 19th, 2009, 11:52 PM

At least 5 years. In my opinion they wont build anything taller than 40 - 50 floors here. I think it will be another yacht club or similar here.

Not possible. F***ing GUARANTEED mate. :banana: This is why i bought this high Jeffers.

These pics were taken from the 66th construction floor so thats the 60th residential floor. You are level with the observatory bar at the Harbour hotel.

http://i39.tinypic.com/awp5hf.jpg

This is looking at Emirates Crown from the same floor. EC has 5 more floors and the Crown feature is around 3 floors. I reckon another 8 floors and you will see over the top easily.

http://i42.tinypic.com/28jctp2.jpg

So residential floors numbered over 68 ish will have some of the best sea views in Dubai looking down the coast towards Jebel Ali and Abu Dhabi. Infinity tower is only 73 floors now and there is a rumour that the 101 floor Damac Heights 2 is being downsized too.

I think the credit crunch is just awsome. The best thing that has ever happened to Dubai. :cheers:

Why do you call him 'mate', is it something to do with sex?

Mistermark

June 20th, 2009, 08:04 PM

If The Torch was handed over now, what do you think a 2-bed type 06 or 08 (marina or sea view) on a high floor would rent for if let in July 2009? Realistically, rather than wishful thinking...

jeffers

June 20th, 2009, 08:26 PM

If The Torch was handed over now, what do you think a 2-bed type 06 or 08 (marina or sea view) on a high floor would rent for if let in July 2009? Realistically, rather than wishful thinking...

120000 ish per ann which would just about pay the LPP (if on it) the service charges and letting fees, but LPP prob only lasts another 10 years after handover until cleared if purchased 2005 ish.

Saggy_Toad

June 20th, 2009, 08:28 PM

A friend of mine working out there has just rented a 2 bed on the palm for £20k. I guess only time will tell. He says rents are dropping daily and is now spoilt for choice. I told him what RERA says would could expect for our apartments in the Torch and he laughed....gulp!

mackie1964

June 20th, 2009, 08:30 PM

^^AED110k to AED120k, no more :cheers:

Dubai_Steve

June 20th, 2009, 08:34 PM

For the 2 bed mentioned, I would say you could pay off the Torch LPP in another 7 years with rental income. Then you could sell at the height of the next boom for 2.5m - 3m cash or keep for early pension income.

jeetha

June 20th, 2009, 08:47 PM

^^That’s for 1 bed …right Mackie??

Saggy_Toad

June 20th, 2009, 08:53 PM

Saggy_Toad

June 20th, 2009, 09:06 PM

Are we all going to be invited to the topping out party...not that I'm in need of beer or anything!

mackie1964

June 20th, 2009, 09:10 PM

^^That’s for 1 bed …right Mackie??

No.
Current market prices 55k to 95k for 1BR depending on building and location. MP/IB/Bs are top of the scale and DEC/Diamond bottom.

For 2BR 80 to 120K again same scale. From time to time you see a better deal going through but they are rare these days. The apartment has to be something special to achieve better. I did one in IB for 150K but it is an exceptional apartment (views, modifications ...etc) :cheers:

High Times

June 20th, 2009, 09:24 PM

Just got back to the good old UK.

I'm afraid rents will drop further yet. Dubai has massive oversupply issues and this will effect the whole rental market across all sectors for years to come. The top dogs in Dubai want to see lower rents.

I will post some articles in the relevent threads in the coming weeks with regards to what the future holds for Dubai. Some of it factual, some of it anecdotal and some of it my own opinions.

Mistermark

June 20th, 2009, 10:07 PM

So is everyone keeping hold of their units now? ....Am I going to get shot for opening 'that' can of worms again?!

No, I'm going down the termination route again on 1 July. Only 12 days to go...

SG will come out with their usual slimeball excuses for not paying up, probably centred around needing to get RERA approval this time round, never mind that the job of the regulator is to ensure that developers meet their obligations to buyers, not the reverse.

The reason for my question about the likely rental yield is because I'm working on strategies for what to do when (not if) the developer doesn't take the units back...

Rider

June 20th, 2009, 10:37 PM

So is everyone keeping hold of their units now? ....Am I going to get shot for opening 'that' can of worms again?!

Who's going to be in charge of the first Torch bbq?! It will be great to meet you all after so long

I'm holding onto mine.

Everyone has their own decision to make based on their personal circumstances. I have a relatively high up marina facing 2 bed and having seen the views I believe my apt will have more to offer than most. I'm also taking a punt that MST will be either scaled back and/or delayed for a number of years based on the current climate and oversupply.

scoobudubai

June 21st, 2009, 02:29 AM

Are we all going to be invited to the topping out party...not that I'm in need of beer or anything!

Saggy, we're all on for that party / bbq, without a doubt. Will be great to meet everyone. Charlie Big Potatoes (missed him in Franky DeLorries last month), Samantha Baker, MisterMark, Dubai Steve, High Times, Jeffers, Agod, Sheltie, Joannides, Mackie, Naz UK, Morrismarina, Yousuf, AltinD, Imre, thetorch, ManUtd, Ben40, jeetha, yecabel, rider, arfie, malec (Cork!), Dubai Flo, The Point, Anjam, Sid, Morten Denmark, Beppe, anjam, FWIW, TaG_One,

It's been a long time.

High Times

June 21st, 2009, 11:11 AM

I'm holding onto mine.

Everyone has their own decision to make based on their personal circumstances. I have a relatively high up marina facing 2 bed and having seen the views I believe my apt will have more to offer than most. I'm also taking a punt that MST will be either scaled back and/or delayed for a number of years based on the current climate and oversupply.

A wise move in my opinion Rider.

When the Torch is complete there will be fierce competition in Dubai, particularly the Marina when it comes to renting either short term or long term. The dynamic is shifting when it comes to what is considered QUALITY real estate now. Have a look at the numbers of units being delivered between now and 2011. Factor in a reducing middle/high income tennant demographic and I think that units will need to have special USP's to get let or sold.

Many things can easily be changed like tiles, taps, room layouts, kitchen cupboard doors etc. What CAN NOT be changed as easily is location, facilities and views.

Taking a refund on a unit now may allow you to repurchase something complete, and recieve income sooner. This is a very short term strategy in a long term game in my opinion. The only stuff going cheap now is cheap for a reason. In five years time the gap between average and special property in Dubai could vary by as much as 50% or more. That is not worth throwing away for 2 years net rental income in my opinion.

The Torch location is amazing. 5 minuites walk to the metro, 5 minuites walk to the beach. Barasti, Bar 44, Bhuda Bar, The Observatory Bar, the facilities at Le Meridien Minah Seyahi, The Westin and The One and Only are all on the doorstep of the Torch.

To top it all off if you are selling or renting a marina facing Torch unit that's complete, you just take your buyer or tennant to the window, and say.

"So when would you like to move in?"

http://i41.tinypic.com/t53eb8.jpg

Mistermark

June 21st, 2009, 12:16 PM

A wise move in my opinion Rider.

When the Torch is complete there will be fierce competition in Dubai, particularly the Marina when it comes to renting either short term or long term. The dynamic is shifting when it comes to what is considered QUALITY real estate now. Have a look at the numbers of units being delivered between now and 2011. Factor in a reducing middle/high income tennant demographic and I think that units will need to have special USP's to get let or sold.

Many things can easily be changed like tiles, taps, room layouts, kitchen cupboard doors etc. What CAN NOT be changed as easily is location, facilities and views.

Taking a refund on a unit now may allow you to repurchase something complete, and recieve income sooner. This is a very short term strategy in a long term game in my opinion. The only stuff going cheap now is cheap for a reason. In five years time the gap between average and special property in Dubai could vary by as much as 50% or more. That is not worth throwing away for 2 years net rental income in my opinion.

The Torch location is amazing. 5 minuites walk to the metro, 5 minuites walk to the beach. Barasti, Bar 44, Bhuda Bar, The Observatory Bar, the facilities at Le Meridien Minah Seyahi, The Westin and The One and Only are all on the doorstep of the Torch.

To top it all off if you are selling or renting a marina facing Torch unit that's complete, you just take your buyer or tennant to the window, and say.

"So when would you like to move in?"

http://i41.tinypic.com/t53eb8.jpg

I agree with the logic of what you're saying, but not the conclusion. Yes, The Torch is in a good position, but so are the likes of Marina Heights, Marina Terrace, Icon Tower, The Waves, Al Majara, Marinascape and other towers I can buy completed units in today for a lot less than I paid for my Torch units.

While I recognise that the units on high floors with marina (also sea) views will have an obvious appeal to tenants, there are also downsides. Compared with most 2-beds in Dubai, the floorplans are quite small (in the other projects I've listed they're typically 200-450 sq ft larger) and the balconies are tiny. Based on the experience of The Point, the finishes will be dreadful - buyers there reckon DCE will be on-site for six months finishing off.

And, worse of all, if the property's on the LPP, the tenant will have to sign an onerous set of undertakings that could result in them being out on their ears even if they've paid their rent in full.

My assessment of The Torch is this - great plot, great design, troubled country, s**t developer.

High Times

June 21st, 2009, 12:58 PM

I agree, we all have different circumstances, paid different psf prices at diffferent exchange rates, at different times, with different needs and expectations so i guess we all have a different tale to tell.

And, worse of all, if the property's on the LPP, the tenant will have to sign an onerous set of undertakings that could result in them being out on their ears even if they've paid their rent in full.

No one has to sign anything of the sort. As an owner on LPP you will no doubt be asked to sign an addendum to a contract with some vary onerous clauses. To sign it is sheer madness, but i am sure many will, indeed already have.

For some reason if a developer in Dubai says jump, most investors say "how high?". This is largely due to lack of leverage and desperation that is felt when an investor is paying a developer stage payments for what can effectively be a pile of concrete and steel. Once a project is officially complete and cirtified as so by the Dubai Municipality, the power of a developer reduces significantly provided all parties have met their obligations within the agreement thus far. Case law already exists in Dubai to this effect.

My assessment of The Torch is this - great plot, great design, troubled country, s**t developer.

I agree with this assemssment too. Fortunately most country's in the civilized world are pretty much on a par, and there is not one developer in Dubai that will win the FIFA fair play award this century.

When i was considering my first investment into Dubai back in 2006, i was advised to only invest with government backed companies like Emaar, Nakheel, Dubai properties etc. I was even refered to Damac by my Bank Manager.

Had I gone down any of these routes i would have probably invested in ON HOLD projects and been offered a credit note at best for my investment.

All things considered things could be a lot worse than they are. I am very confident the Torch will complete (unlike other developments). The quality wont be great but that is manageable. It will be late but that is manageable.

What is not manageable is what is happening to the likes of Emaar, Nakheel, et al.

scoobudubai

June 21st, 2009, 02:38 PM

Rider

June 21st, 2009, 04:00 PM

A wise move in my opinion Rider.

When the Torch is complete there will be fierce competition in Dubai, particularly the Marina when it comes to renting either short term or long term. The dynamic is shifting when it comes to what is considered QUALITY real estate now. Have a look at the numbers of units being delivered between now and 2011. Factor in a reducing middle/high income tennant demographic and I think that units will need to have special USP's to get let or sold.

Many things can easily be changed like tiles, taps, room layouts, kitchen cupboard doors etc. What CAN NOT be changed as easily is location, facilities and views.

Taking a refund on a unit now may allow you to repurchase something complete, and recieve income sooner. This is a very short term strategy in a long term game in my opinion. The only stuff going cheap now is cheap for a reason. In five years time the gap between average and special property in Dubai could vary by as much as 50% or more. That is not worth throwing away for 2 years net rental income in my opinion.

The Torch location is amazing. 5 minuites walk to the metro, 5 minuites walk to the beach. Barasti, Bar 44, Bhuda Bar, The Observatory Bar, the facilities at Le Meridien Minah Seyahi, The Westin and The One and Only are all on the doorstep of the Torch.

To top it all off if you are selling or renting a marina facing Torch unit that's complete, you just take your buyer or tennant to the window, and say.

"So when would you like to move in?"

Thank you High Times. I completely agree with your rationale.

2 bed marina facing apts are approx 1200 sq ft and the configuration is such that the balcony, living room and both bedrooms are all facing directly onto the marina. With the floor to ceiling windows, the views from each of these aspects will be stunning. With this in mind and the amenities nearby, I have no doubt that prospective tenants or investors will be blown away.

I totally respect Mistermark's strategy and in theory it is hard to argue with. I personally am taking a longer term view and am less inclined to adjust my portfolio based on what else is available at present. If my apt wasn't so high up then my strategy may be totally different. Taking Marina Heights as an example, I personally think that the chances of most of it's marina facing apts being blocked are still fairly high - only time will tell.

This may seem defeatist but I have neither the time nor the inclination to pursue a refund as I am realistic to know how drawn out the process would be and the likely outcome. I just know where I won't be going to buy a furniture pack in the future. Having been a Torch investor since 2005, selling now would feel like dropping out of a marathon with 5 or 6 miles to go. I am heartened with the recent progress and compared with a few months ago am much more confident about this development being completed.

Mistermark

June 21st, 2009, 05:06 PM

Ben40

June 21st, 2009, 07:10 PM

I'm just happy to hear a few positive comments after all the negative's. As for the bbq will see if I'm not on a walker by then!!. I had no probs re-renting one of my other apartments in the Marina, yes I needed to reduced the price but in the rental market and market in general it is still returning around 15% so still quite a good deal. I agree the market will be a bit over subscribed in the ext tear or two but I also agree people will also go for locations, quality ext.. The Torch will do fine and Im in it for the long term..

thetorch

June 21st, 2009, 08:01 PM

MANUTD

June 21st, 2009, 08:30 PM

After seeing this I headed straight onto www.worldsbestbars.com to place a torch ad, select should do the same.
Just bought the domain selectbars.ae and selectbars.com
And the Bar will be even higher than this amaaazing views
eat you heart out Bar 44 (although still my Fav !)

High Times

June 21st, 2009, 09:24 PM

I appreciate that everyone's priorities and circumstances are different. Mine are driven by the maxim 'a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush'.

It'd help me greatly in setting my post-termination strategy if you could give me your assessment of when you think units on high floors will be handed over and ready for occupation by tenants.

I am working on 1st or 2nd quarter 2011 before mine are ready, although i am no expert in construction.

I am not reliant upon rental income to fund my purchases so it's all acedemic really. I used the LPP purely as an insurance policy against total failure and keep hold of as much cash as i could.

True Blue

June 22nd, 2009, 12:59 AM

Hi All

Does anyone how any incline as to how much the management fees are going to work out at?

I am trying to figure out the potential net returns on rental, AFTER all costs such as borrowing interest and management fees.

It has always been a fear of mine, as it has never been made fully clear contractually in my opinion.

What are our options if we do not accept their fees for example?

Thank in advance.

The Torch

As rental returns have halved in the last 12months with it becoming a tenants market, I don't see the point in trying to speculate what you would acheive in 2011 as rental income. Unless you are prepared for worst case scenario e.g. 1 bed 60,000aed and 2 bed 75,000aed.:dunno:

Maintenance charges could be in the range 15-25AED/ft

Samantha Baker

June 22nd, 2009, 11:01 AM

No, I'm going down the termination route again on 1 July. Only 12 days to go...

SG will come out with their usual slimeball excuses for not paying up, probably centred around needing to get RERA approval this time round, never mind that the job of the regulator is to ensure that developers meet their obligations to buyers, not the reverse.

The reason for my question about the likely rental yield is because I'm working on strategies for what to do when (not if) the developer doesn't take the units back...

^^
I'm still trying to decide whether to terminate or not. What worries me is that once you've terminated, there's no going back. What happens if you terminate, then they keep you hanging around for months or years waiting for your money, can you then say you withdraw your termination and sell instead? I got the impression from Select that you can't. I think it's disgraceful that Select are getting away with using RERA to back out of their contract. My contract is with Select and it clearly states in clausd 15.3 that termination is allowed and refund paid - no mention of if RERA approves it. When I spoke to someone in Select in Dubai the other day (yes, they did actually speak to me) I was basically told "we have no idea whatsoever what RERA are going to do".

What are your thoughts on this Mistermark? It sounds like you are making plans for post-termination if you don't get your money back, so are you going to put a time limit in your notice that you want the money back by - and if you don't get it, then your termination is withdrawn? I don't want to be left with no apartment and no refund!

Has anyone spoken to RERA a bout what might happen, or is that easier said than done?

High Times

June 22nd, 2009, 12:33 PM

Samantha,

Contractually, you are entitled to a full refund of your payments if you decide to terminate your contract under 15.3. I have no doubts that Select will eventually honour this as it is a legal right that you will be exercising.

The difficulty is that the Dubai real estate market is currently in freefall and many developers are technically insolvent. Many projects are on hold pending cancellation. Even government owned companies like Emaar and Nakheel are not repaying funds to investors under the terms of their refund policy as they are 'playing the game' i.e. "not cancelling", but "putting on hold".

RERA was put in place to regulate a sprinting athlete, but is now nursing a sick child. The focus on RERA now is to ensure that as many under construction projects as possible get finished. If this means cutting a developer a bit of slack for a year or so then this is what they will do. If you are unsatisfied with RERA then you can go to the property courts and wait 1-2 years for your day in court.

The problem with requesting a refund in my view is this. If you put it in writing to terminate, then you legally accept that you will only get back what you have invested, at some point in the future (most likely when Select can either sell your unit on at a small profit, or switch another investor into your unit). It is likely that you will see a better return on your investment if you hold on and sell it yourself nearer, or at completion.

Obviously we all have very different individual circumstances and have planned accordingly. None of us could foresee the global financial mess that we are all in and therefore strategy needs to be constantly re-evaluated.

I do not feel that Select have handled this situation in the fairest way as they could of, should of, and still could offer premium holidays to investors on both SPP and LPP in order to assist those who factored in rental income from unrealistic completion dates.

It’s a tough decision to have to make and the best advice I could give you would be DON’T EXPECT YOUR REFUND BEFORE SELECT SELL YOUR UNIT AT ORIGINAL PRICE + 5%.

Good Luck.

Samantha Baker

June 22nd, 2009, 01:02 PM

^^
Thanks for this advice High Times. I think you're right. The only benefit of terminating is that I won't have to keep making the payments until completion, and I suppose at least I know what I'll get back rather than relying on the market. The question is when will I get it. It would certainly have helped if Select gave payment holidays.
Thanks

Mistermark

June 22nd, 2009, 06:18 PM

^^
I'm still trying to decide whether to terminate or not. What worries me is that once you've terminated, there's no going back. What happens if you terminate, then they keep you hanging around for months or years waiting for your money, can you then say you withdraw your termination and sell instead? I got the impression from Select that you can't. I think it's disgraceful that Select are getting away with using RERA to back out of their contract. My contract is with Select and it clearly states in clausd 15.3 that termination is allowed and refund paid - no mention of if RERA approves it. When I spoke to someone in Select in Dubai the other day (yes, they did actually speak to me) I was basically told "we have no idea whatsoever what RERA are going to do".

What are your thoughts on this Mistermark? It sounds like you are making plans for post-termination if you don't get your money back, so are you going to put a time limit in your notice that you want the money back by - and if you don't get it, then your termination is withdrawn? I don't want to be left with no apartment and no refund!

Has anyone spoken to RERA a bout what might happen, or is that easier said than done?

I wouldn't want to advise anyone else but my plan is to issue a separate termination notice for each unit and provide a covering letter giving me the right to rescind the termination notices if they place themselves in default of the obligation to issue the refund. That way, if they issue the refund promptly, fine; if not, at least I'm no longer obligated to make LPP instalments. Because they want those instalments to be made, they have a greater incentive to re-sell my units than those of people who are still feeding them cash every quarter.

Maybe I'm getting soft in my old age but I don't think SG is motivated by a desire to re-sell our units at a profit to themselves; I think they just don't want to have to issue refunds, and they hope that re-selling units will be the route to doing this.

The problem comes if they can't re-sell them at the original price. The bombsite that is The Point, combined with the skulduggery surrounding the side letter they're insisting LPP customers sign, won't help with this. What I'm as yet unsure about is how far RERA, and my fellow Torch owners, are prepared to go if refunds aren't forthcoming and the developer can't dig itself out of the hole by selling our units on...

scoobudubai

June 24th, 2009, 12:45 AM

Imre

June 24th, 2009, 07:41 AM

24/June/2009

The Torch

http://i44.tinypic.com/24m9czs.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/2lnxuae.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/wl7spy.jpg

charlie big potatoes

June 24th, 2009, 08:04 AM

Surely if they don't make the refund on time you will be entitled to the refund plus interest, plus compensation.

If you are successful in obtaining judgement at the land court you will be entitled to comp plus interest and the interest awarded could be 9 to 12 percent. at the judges discretion. That adds up to a whole lotta dough.

ramzy

June 24th, 2009, 08:38 AM

In the letter select group issued eArly this year they said compensation would be offered in the form of interest payments deducted from the final payment. If you have not replied to this letter does that mean we are implicitly accepting the compensation offerred?

Or do we need to explicitly write to the developer stating we accept the compensation being offered to make it official?

Samantha Baker

June 24th, 2009, 10:52 AM

Surely if they don't make the refund on time you will be entitled to the refund plus interest, plus compensation.

The problem is, there is nothing in the contract that states exactly what "on time" is. Clause 15.2 (if it's not force majeure) states that money will be returned within 20 working days, but Clause 15.3 (in the case of force majeure) just says that either party has the right to terminate but not does not give a time scale in which the money will be returned. It could I suppose be argued that the same timescale as clause 15.2 applies. But I guess it all depends on what RERA say. If they say that Select don't need to pay back for 18 months, then legally I suppose we can't ask for interest because they are not late in their payment. Who knows, it's too complicated, perhaps I need to get a lawyer.

talks

June 24th, 2009, 06:28 PM

The problem is, there is nothing in the contract that states exactly what "on time" is. Clause 15.2 (if it's not force majeure) states that money will be returned within 20 working days, but Clause 15.3 (in the case of force majeure) just says that either party has the right to terminate but not does not give a time scale in which the money will be returned. It could I suppose be argued that the same timescale as clause 15.2 applies. But I guess it all depends on what RERA say. If they say that Select don't need to pay back for 18 months, then legally I suppose we can't ask for interest because they are not late in their payment. Who knows, it's too complicated, perhaps I need to get a lawyer.

The maximum period of time SG have to complete the project is over on the 31th June.
You can ask for a refund, SG can give everyone back their money if they wish to.Even to those who wish to keep their units.

Rera will issue termination certs as per SPA and if SG fail to refund in the correct period of time they must either,
1.Put the project on hold.
2.Go into administration.

If you are in default Rera will allow SG a period of time to refund monies to you,but you may lost some of your investment as you have asked for termination and are in default.

As long as the SPA breaks no real estate law Rera will allow the termination notices.

Also SG cannot be seen to work on the project after the 20 day period without refunding you as they have shown not to have funds to pay contractors and suppliers if they cannot pay you.

agod

June 24th, 2009, 06:58 PM

MANUTD

June 24th, 2009, 07:02 PM

MOAF

June 24th, 2009, 08:57 PM

So if everyone asks for a refund were all f** k*d even the ones who ask for refund if SG go into Admin ??

I.m staying in I just don't see the difference you wont get paid out anyway

I am in for long term just hope the shortermists don't knacker it for me and others

I agree with MANUTD 100%

Lets hope the other dont F***k it up for us all

jeffers

June 24th, 2009, 09:40 PM

talks

June 24th, 2009, 10:52 PM

I agree with MANUTD 100%

Lets hope the other dont F***k it up for us all

I believe that SG have the funds to pay out anyone who wish's to terminate.

Some of these funds will probably come from those on LPP who have defaulted.
SG will most likely terminate their units for them and get to keep the largest part,if not all their funds.

If Rera decide that the project is 70% complete,then the % values will be used on refunds.

jeffers

June 24th, 2009, 11:20 PM

...

True Blue

June 24th, 2009, 11:41 PM

It may just be the case that SP are sitting with Billions of Dirhams in the bank earning poor interest and the idea of getting some stock back, at cost with a view to selling in 2011 at handover for a good profit, actually appeals to them.

The standard payment plans for all SP projects are front loaded with the initial deposits not vested to the escrow so there must be plenty of cash swilling about somewhere.

Mistermark

June 25th, 2009, 12:26 AM

The problem is, there is nothing in the contract that states exactly what "on time" is. Clause 15.2 (if it's not force majeure) states that money will be returned within 20 working days, but Clause 15.3 (in the case of force majeure) just says that either party has the right to terminate but not does not give a time scale in which the money will be returned. It could I suppose be argued that the same timescale as clause 15.2 applies. But I guess it all depends on what RERA say. If they say that Select don't need to pay back for 18 months, then legally I suppose we can't ask for interest because they are not late in their payment. Who knows, it's too complicated, perhaps I need to get a lawyer.

I agree that 15.3 doesn't give SG a period of time on the expiry of the 20 Business Days notice to pay the refunds. The legal advice I've received is that it means that the money must be paid at the end of the 20 Business Days. In my termination notices I'm giving them a further four Business Days (i.e. a week) to have transferred cleared funds into my Dirham account before we go down the insolvency and RERA route.

Mistermark

June 25th, 2009, 12:32 AM

The maximum period of time SG have to complete the project is over on the 31th June.
You can ask for a refund, SG can give everyone back their money if they wish to.Even to those who wish to keep their units.

Rera will issue termination certs as per SPA and if SG fail to refund in the correct period of time they must either,
1.Put the project on hold.
2.Go into administration.

If you are in default Rera will allow SG a period of time to refund monies to you,but you may lost some of your investment as you have asked for termination and are in default.

As long as the SPA breaks no real estate law Rera will allow the termination notices.

Also SG cannot be seen to work on the project after the 20 day period without refunding you as they have shown not to have funds to pay contractors and suppliers if they cannot pay you.

Regarding RERA, I believe you're right, though I suspect that what those who decide to terminate will actually receive on or around the 20th Business Day is a letter saying that the developer is liaising closely with the regulator, seeking their approval for the termination notices and their guidance on how and when to issue refunds. In other words, RERA will be used as a smokescreen/excuse for non-payment. I'd like to be wrong, and time will tell, but based on the correspondence and conversations I've had so far, I'm pretty sure this is what's coming.

As to your second point - that the developer, once in breach of its obligations to issue refunds, can't continue to build the project, this would certainly be the case in the UK, as it would amount to trading while insolvent. I'm not sure whether such a law exists in UAE.

However, SP is subject to UK law, and while technically the requests for further instalments now come from SG in Dubai, I think if it could be demonstrated to SP that the developer was insolvent they would be in a very difficult position legally if they didn't write to customers notifying them of the risks that could be associated with making further payments. Likewise, there's nothing to stop customers contacting suppliers in Dubai to let them know that the developer was in default of a payment obligation, in which case they'd have to form their own judgements of the risk profile of continuing to supply them.

Mistermark

June 25th, 2009, 12:42 AM

Guy's it not the "others" that will "f**k it up" remember that if individuals do wish to had back their properties then they contractually can do so. If the developer had got its arse into action and actually started building the place promptly, not held off for nearly 2.5 years after taking 30% from investors then things would be so different, also the developer changed its design from a 74 storey tower to a 84 story tower and increased the number of units by around 150 extra units, once again after taking 30% from investors, this also as has a major impact against delivery timescales, so come on ask yourselves again, who will "f**k things up" ??? or should i say who HAS "f**ked things up"

^^^^^^ :banana::banana::banana:

Remember, by the developer's own admission, the single biggest cause of the delay is that they marketed the project before they had the necessary permissions to begin construction. The next biggest is that they changed the design - twice! - and changed out the master contractor.

I for one went into this project in the summer of 2005, with a three-year build schedule. We've just passed the fourth anniversary. Realistically I believe my units will be handed over between the fifth and sixth, i.e. late 2010 or early 2011. Based on the experience of The Point, DCE will leave themselves probably six months' further work to do before the units are truly lettable.

All I want to do is to de-risk myself and gain the cashflows I ought to have been receiving for the past 6-12 months by exercising my contractual right to a refund and recycling that money into similar, but completed, units. That's not unreasonable, surely?

As for next steps, I sincerely hope the developer has the funds to honour its obligation. If not, I agree with True Blue and Talks that the money from all those SPP buyers who've paid 90 percent has to exist somewhere. There's also the fact that, due to the overrun, they've received a lot more LPP instalments than they originally budgeted to by this stage of construction. If all this money is not in Torch Select Limited then maybe it has been transferred to Group or to the shareholders, but if the alternatives are sufficiently unpalatable I believe it will be returned to the relevant SPV and used to honour its obligations as the alternative would be a catastrophic destruction of shareholder value. The big payday for SG comes from securitising the LPP contracts, and they can only do this if they're still the shareholders when the project is delivered.

Samantha Baker

June 25th, 2009, 01:16 PM

I agree with MANUTD 100%

Lets hope the other dont F***k it up for us all

^^
Yes, I hope too that those who terminate (and I may be one of them, not sure yet) don't f"**k it up" for the rest. But everyone has their individual circumstances. Some of us can't afford to be making LPP payments every 3 months for more than 2 years after we were expecting to have a rental income. Also, even for those who had made provisions for late completion, their circumstances may have changed in the last year, eg losing jobs, not getting paid etc.

MOAF

June 25th, 2009, 01:29 PM

^^
Yes, I hope too that those who terminate (and I may be one of them, not sure yet) don't f"**k it up" for the rest. But everyone has their individual circumstances. Some of us can't afford to be making LPP payments every 3 months for more than 2 years after we were expecting to have a rental income. Also, even for those who had made provisions for late completion, their circumstances may have changed in the last year, eg losing jobs, not getting paid etc.

well thats life ???

Samantha Baker

June 25th, 2009, 01:43 PM

Mistermark

June 25th, 2009, 02:05 PM

[QUOTE=talks;38733314]
If you are in default Rera will allow SG a period of time to refund monies to you,but you may lost some of your investment as you have asked for termination and are in default.

^^
Do you think they will say you were in default if one of your payments over the years was ever 1 day late arriving in their bank account?

They could, but given the wording of clause 15.3 it wouldn't give them grounds to reject your termination notice. The clause states a right to terminate exists 'if... the buyer has fulfilled all of his [or her, in your case] obligations under this Agreement'. It doesn't say that you need to have fulfilled them on time, just that you need to have fulfilled them...

scoobudubai

June 25th, 2009, 10:40 PM

[QUOTE=Mistermark;38750402]^^^^^^ :banana::banana::banana:

Remember, by the developer's own admission, the single biggest cause of the delay is that they marketed the project before they had the necessary permissions to begin construction.

Not true. They had planning permission for the Khatib and Alami design in 2005,which they continued to market fraudulently until at least 2007/8.

We did post evidence of this direct from K&H.

But then (2005/6) they changed the design out of all recognition (a much cheaper design) and had to wait another year or two for new planning permission.

Mistermark

June 26th, 2009, 09:43 AM

Yousuf27

June 26th, 2009, 10:17 AM

I agree with MANUTD 100%

Lets hope the other dont F***k it up for us all

I agree with this philosophy too!!

I'm thinking that the vociferous FEW on this thread who continue to discuss the refund issue to death - are indeed THE VERY FEW who will be going this way. I'm sure the developer will be able to cough up a few dirhams to send them away happy.

Incidentally I hope the developer would be using the cash he could be accumulating from LPP defaults and there would be no intention to use cash holding from the 90% in, SPP investors to pay out those who decided to bail. They can probably do that if they wish but as an SPP investor I feel pretty uncomfortable with that idea.

Imre

June 26th, 2009, 11:18 AM

26/June/2009

The Torch

http://i40.tinypic.com/2d7ypfk.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/all0sx.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/2evrd05.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/5arrf5.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/1079j4o.jpg

Imre

June 26th, 2009, 11:19 AM

26/June/2009

The Torch

http://i43.tinypic.com/30j7ghu.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/29bj09l.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/xljwgg.jpg

Poolview

June 26th, 2009, 02:50 PM

Great Photo's Imre ^^^^:applause: without you & the rest of the people on here who post all the photo's I would have very Little Information to go as to how this Project is going as SG/SP tell me very Little & now it's going to be even less as it's now bi monthly for their updates :ohno:

I see that they have managed to F--K up the Point Which I thought was a good looking Building with AirCon Units on the Outside of some of the Apartments

SGrCRAP

June 26th, 2009, 06:19 PM

I was only joking about the AC units on the outside of the building - well I hope I was!!

Poolview

June 26th, 2009, 11:30 PM

I was only joking about the AC units on the outside of the building - well I hope I was!!

Had another look & my am I having a FUM DUCK Day :nuts::nuts: it can only get better I hope

thetorch

June 28th, 2009, 12:57 PM

Great work IMRE. :cheers:

Your efforts and professional photos are invaluable to us all.

Nice to see we are nearly at the 70 floor mark. Not far to go now.

The Torch

Mistermark

June 30th, 2009, 09:39 AM

It won't have escaped the attention of many people on this thread that today is 30 June 2009, the date by which, by its own interpretation, the developer needs to have given possession and occupation of the apartments if it is to avoid the requirement to honour termination agreements issued by buyers.

Can we all agree now, for the record, that the building has not been finished and that they are unable to give possession and occupation of any of the apartments? Also, can we agree what floor is currently under construction. According to thetorch they're nearly at the 70th floor. I make it floor 68 (out of 84). Does anyone here disagree?

paul66

June 30th, 2009, 01:15 PM

^^
Mistermark - can you not count the floors for yourself?

Mistermark

June 30th, 2009, 01:27 PM

^^
Mistermark - can you not count the floors for yourself?

I've tried, but each time I do, I come up with a different number :ohno:. Must the the heat we're having :nuts:. Also it depends what you count as a floor.

thetorch

June 30th, 2009, 03:31 PM

I've tried, but each time I do, I come up with a different number :ohno:. Must the the heat we're having :nuts:. Also it depends what you count as a floor.

^^

I think the close up pictures from IMRE gives those unable to count a fairly clear picture as to where we are up to :)

jeffers

June 30th, 2009, 07:46 PM

http://i40.tinypic.com/2q0ludi.jpg

Courtesy of Man Utd. :cheers:

SkyscraperCity man

June 30th, 2009, 08:04 PM

^^

I think the close up pictures from IMRE gives those unable to count a fairly clear picture as to where we are up to :)

I counted 71 floors...

barry mcbarry

June 30th, 2009, 08:35 PM

buster007

June 30th, 2009, 10:52 PM

^^
I'll agree with the fact that it would take at least another 12months for this building to near completion and be ready for handover.

scoot68

July 1st, 2009, 10:33 AM

I concur. The building is not finished.

barry mcbarry

July 1st, 2009, 10:38 PM

I concur. The building is not finished.

I disconcur. The building is nonunfinished. It is malincomplete. It is antiundone. Kapiche?:banana::lol::):cheers:

High Times

July 1st, 2009, 11:42 PM

^^

Barry, I've missed you, where have you been ?

You are the only one that ever talks any sence around here.

scoobudubai

July 1st, 2009, 11:43 PM

I disconcur. The building is nonunfinished. It is malincomplete. It is antiundone. Kapiche?:banana::lol::):cheers:

I've noticed that it is the 1st of July 2009 now, was wondering if anyone has considered handing their apartment back to Select?

Mistermark

July 2nd, 2009, 12:19 AM

I've noticed that it is the 1st of July 2009 now, was wondering if anyone has considered handing their apartment back to Select?

Yup, did it this morning. 20 Business Days from now, 5 August, I may or may not receive a full refund.

Anyone here care to bet me my refund cheque against their incomplete unit/s that I'll get my money?

thetorch

July 2nd, 2009, 12:24 AM

Dubai_Steve

July 2nd, 2009, 01:04 AM

Yup, did it this morning. 20 Business Days from now, 5 August, I may or may not receive a full refund.

Anyone here care to bet me my refund cheque against their incomplete unit/s that I'll get my money?

Depends if they can sell it in time at a proft and give you back the rest.

Best to keep it until completion then sell, not much chance of Select selling very quickly before it is complete.

MANUTD

July 2nd, 2009, 08:21 AM

Just been up to the top of TT many pictures will appear shortly from the clever photgrapers !!

Absolutely stunning views

Lots of workers on site - can't judge when completion wil be but its certainly getting built quick now - topped out end OCT IMHO

Some of the views nearer the botom are ok also and are good for buyers in a deporessed market espec on 15year plan - before somebody says i,m not on commission but if you have 40%toput down and rest on 15year (providing addendeum is right )then it might be worth a punt - all depends on ppsf obviously and exchange rate

234sale

July 2nd, 2009, 09:08 AM

http://i42.tinypic.com/1448yet.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/2vl8jgz.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/jrsl6x.jpg

What like these, ;)

Sheltie

July 2nd, 2009, 09:49 AM

MANUTD

July 2nd, 2009, 11:45 AM

http://i42.tinypic.com/1448yet.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/2vl8jgz.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/jrsl6x.jpg

What like these, ;)

A little like those but mine are better :lol::lol:

Apartments insides marginally beter than The Point -slightly better finishing - if you want real luxury you'll have to do it yourself IMHO

BadBoyR

July 2nd, 2009, 12:07 PM

Amazing views, you can see the whole marina, wow!

234sale

July 2nd, 2009, 02:36 PM

Did you manage to get pictures inside any apartments?

yep.

charlie big potatoes

July 2nd, 2009, 02:53 PM

Great pics again guys, keep em coming.

Sheltie

July 2nd, 2009, 02:58 PM

yep.

Don't keep us in suspence!!

234sale

July 2nd, 2009, 04:01 PM

PhGIWNiyO2k

234sale

July 2nd, 2009, 04:48 PM

Don't keep us in suspence!!

Im home now, the pictures are on one of my work computers

MANUTD

July 2nd, 2009, 04:50 PM

:lol:But you will have to blow smoke up his arse to see them.

Sounds interesting :lol::lol:

Not much Diff to TP inside CBP - views were breathtaking (frightening actually !!)

Think i'll stick to lower level to live

A bar/restaurant was talked about at the top at some point -that would be amazing (no balconies please guys)

Dubai_Steve

July 2nd, 2009, 04:55 PM

Amazing views.

I was wondering about the top deck. On the plans posted by someone here last year it mentioned an observation deck. CBP told me it would be a lap dancing club and bar :cheers:

I wish someone could post some interior photos of the high floor 2 beds to get a sense of space etc. don't care about tiles etc just want to get an idea of layout and space. A photo with your back to the wall facing the windows would be great.

MANUTD

July 2nd, 2009, 04:56 PM

PhGIWNiyO2k

This is more interesting than the view from Burj Dubai
at present at least many buildings are built in the Marina
This area will be the first to recover IMO

Imre

July 2nd, 2009, 06:27 PM

sorry , I had computer problem but thanks for 234Sale , it seams good now:)

The Torch site visit today (Dubai Marina), on the 70th floor

02/July/2009

The Torch

http://i40.tinypic.com/5ygldt.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/2crsym9.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/2hzkal5.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/4izhpy.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/x1j4zq.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2qvtks1.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/28u45eq.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/10d8h92.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/saw0id.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/23w6ssi.jpg

Imre

July 2nd, 2009, 06:34 PM

02/July/2009

The Torch

more construction photos, steel everywhere:)

http://i42.tinypic.com/2nrzvbb.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/ic957b.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/2dugoy8.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/309hh05.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/2zofaz8.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/33m759s.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/wswitw.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/121y7x0.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/302896u.jpg

Imre

July 2nd, 2009, 06:43 PM

02/July/2009

The Torch,the view

http://i41.tinypic.com/30xim36.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/9aqzxi.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/2uhl2ev.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/2aesade.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/2ldwvas.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/15h1xf4.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/30k854z.jpg

Imre

July 2nd, 2009, 08:10 PM

02/July/2009

View from The Torch

http://i44.tinypic.com/2q2jpz5.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/ab5j15.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/21me1e1.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/idbuzb.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/1z5khfq.jpg

Imre

July 2nd, 2009, 08:24 PM

02/July/2009

The Torch

I think there is no problem with the finishing, not luxury but a good average in Dubai , I wouldnt change anything there in the first couple years , If I have an apartment there.:)

http://i43.tinypic.com/dlnod3.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/ng52mr.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/2iavszs.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/102we2c.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/mn2i6s.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/nl4rwi.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/9fux3r.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/14vp5ag.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/ozsr4.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/34evndz.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/2nscsup.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/2e4ezc9.jpg

Dubai_Steve

July 2nd, 2009, 08:45 PM

Thanks for the inside photos Imre! Looks nice enough to me and very spacious for a 1 bed apartment.

Should rent out quite easily.

MOAF

July 2nd, 2009, 09:03 PM

Thanks Imre, Your a star mate.

You are absolutley vital to this forum,thanks for taking time out in the boiling temperatures for the fantastic snaps..

Next couple of months i will be visiting dubai, i hear you are partial to "pakistani tea", i would love to buy you a cup, if you are available at the time Imre......

MOAF

Beppe786

July 2nd, 2009, 09:26 PM

how many sq ft is that apartment in imre pictures above? looks quite big

Imre

July 2nd, 2009, 09:29 PM

02/July/2009

The Torch

more photos

http://i41.tinypic.com/sendki.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/2agw4fm.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/21b3whw.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/y1blz.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/sg7qm1.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/11tv9sn.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/2qbyp2q.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/51ynq0.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/2wqbb0g.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/71lefo.jpg

Dubai_Steve

July 2nd, 2009, 09:40 PM

how many sq ft is that apartment in imre pictures above? looks quite big

Think it is 963 sq ft, the largest of the 1 beds.

http://i42.tinypic.com/bivw20.jpg

Imre

July 2nd, 2009, 10:39 PM

02/July/2009

The Torch

3 short videos

wdU07mgFXKA

oKjNbAf7hnY

-W69SM8vQYs

Dubai_Steve

July 2nd, 2009, 10:45 PM

Cool. Imre you are really spoiling us today :banana:

Beppe786

July 2nd, 2009, 10:54 PM

imre same with BC would be nice..

jeffers

July 2nd, 2009, 11:46 PM

"Way to go chaps" what a day on the Torch Thread.

Imre, I trust you held Pauls hand tight on the trip up in the external lift !!! :lol:

amazing views all around:banana::banana::banana:

jeffers

July 2nd, 2009, 11:48 PM

http://i43.tinypic.com/2whf213.jpg
Taken by Man Utd from 69th floor !

Sheltie

July 3rd, 2009, 12:47 AM

Thanks for the photos, brilliant as usual.

ramzy

July 3rd, 2009, 01:36 AM

and that's from floor 70. Imagine what it would be like from the top. All the other towers around will look short.

Pity I am on floor 18! But I do have a marina facing so can't complain for the time being.

Thanks Imre for the fab shots. What lens do you use to give the panoramic effect?

shaffar

July 3rd, 2009, 02:00 AM

:bow::bow::bow::bow:Imre you're a star

Imre

July 3rd, 2009, 06:12 AM

Thanks Imre for the fab shots. What lens do you use to give the panoramic effect?

thanks, Sigma EX, 10-20mm 1:4-5:6 DC HSM , unfortunatelly that camera ( Canon EOS 20D ) little bit old, I used a lot thats why pics are not perfect.

ramzy

July 3rd, 2009, 08:10 AM

The pics look pretty good to me. That's a wide angle lens right?

paul66

July 3rd, 2009, 10:00 AM

The quality inside the apartments look very good. Absolutely pleased with this....RESULT!

Definately worth the long wait.

UK_TO_DUBAI

July 3rd, 2009, 11:19 AM

I agree with you...i think its very good quality...looks great...Thanks Imre...

Beppe..we will have the best of the SG @ BC...wait and watch

AltinD

July 3rd, 2009, 12:49 PM

Amaizing marina views there. :okay:

mackie1964

July 4th, 2009, 10:17 AM

Thanks to Imre, Sale and of course Man U for the excellent update :applause::applause::applause:

bizzybonita

July 4th, 2009, 04:10 PM

Today

:lol: Torch Tower with Light Indicator ...

http://i44.tinypic.com/2liaoig.jpg

jeetha

July 4th, 2009, 05:32 PM

Altin! did you delete some post here. Anyway it has worked.

Lovely views towards the Marina from way up there and every one is happy. Select probably sold a few more units just from Imre & Sales’s pictures.

AltinD

July 4th, 2009, 07:56 PM

^^ No, no posts have been deleted in this threads for weeks.

scoobudubai

July 4th, 2009, 11:48 PM

^^ No, no posts have been deleted in this threads for weeks.

Hi now that we've seen all those really fab pics and some people are on a high, any chance of restoring all of scoobies posts which were unfairly deleted over the last few months?

The mood will change again, as expected from time to time, but admittedly great recent photos / videos especially from IMRE, tks.

We are still gonna sue their asses, especially related to those goddarned balconies on the lower part.

mackie1964

July 5th, 2009, 09:03 AM

^^Only the Balconies??? :)

agod

July 5th, 2009, 09:52 AM

Fed up with looking at the state of the place, and after phone calls to Emaar, I wrote to G4, and got this published today, Page 25.

Well, it’s now official, Dubai Marina is a toilet, raw sewage floating in the Marina yesterday, and everyday now the pollution is getting worse, every inlet is now full of litter and waste, empty bottles, shopping bags, you name it and its there, disgusting and embarrassing, when coach loads of tourists pull up to take a look at the place it is not a pleasant sight, I see them pointing it out and feel embarrassed for Dubai, and myself, that they are letting this happen, it used to be a clean place, over the many years of me coming here, it was never like this, when I chose the Marina to live, I believed that it would not be in this state, I phoned Emaar the master developer over two weeks ago, and they said they would look, but still nothing has happened, we used to have one guy in a small boat with a wheelie bin onboard, and a butterfly net, hopelessly trying to pick it up, but he seems to have disappeared, for what use he was, in this city of extremes you would have thought they would have had the best that money could buy, like a huge vacuum boat that sucked it all up, I remember in London my home town how bad the Thames was, but that was a commercial river, and you expected it, and how they cleaned that up to the point that even salmon returned to the river.

Here is a pleasure Marina with visitor’s from around the the world, taking a look at this pollution and there comments are always the same, how can you live here in this mess it’s disgusting. If Dubai is to compete with the worlds finest Marinas it need’s to get its act together and quickly start clearing this pollution out of my home, and stop embarrassing me and the other residents of this place.

Alan Godfrey

AltinD

July 5th, 2009, 10:24 AM

Hi now that we've seen all those really fab pics and some people are on a high, any chance of restoring all of scoobies posts which were unfairly deleted over the last few months?

no

scoobudubai

July 5th, 2009, 11:34 AM

^^Only the Balconies??? :)

Were there other problems? :lol:

mackie1964

July 5th, 2009, 04:05 PM

agod

July 6th, 2009, 12:05 AM

Thanks Mackie, now you have done with Dubai, I fancy Florida could be on the menu.

SGrCRAP

July 6th, 2009, 11:03 AM

GET READY.........
FOR A RUBBISH FINISH!!!

It seems apparent that SG are using exactly the same cheap and nasty materials for the Torch as they have for The Point.

One of my colleagues snagged some units in the point recently and it beggars belief a developer would dare try to hand over units in their current state.

If SG are true to form prepare yourself for these types of issues:-

Cracked Tiles
Chipped Tiles
Broken Floor Tiles
Poorly laid Tiles
Loose Tiles
Gaps between sockets and cut tiles
Gaps pretty much everywhere
Carpentry courtesy of 'PG Tips' Monkeys
Scratched window frames
Sealant applied by blindman on speed
Scratched woodwork
Poorly fitted and loose sanitary ware
Water leaks
Over painting on virtually every surface
Paint so thin you can still see the plaster underneath
Indian graffitti visible under paint
Non square ceiling access panels with huge gaps
Cheap and nasty kitchen appliances
Kitchen sinks so thin they could be made of tin foil
Cheap and nasty kitchen units
Poorly fitted kitchen units
Warped kitchen carcases
Poorly fitted wardrobes
Missing balcony glass
Missing cladding
Cracks in walls
Services not completed but they still want the maintenance fees.
Lifts not working on all floors
Lifts with exposed wiring.

This is by no means exhaustive.

Point Owners suspect Torch owners are going to get the same treatment (if not worse as the Torch is so much bigger!)

The developer will almost certainly try to hand the Torch over BEFORE IT IS READY! There is no way The Point should have been handed over on 30th June. Cynically speaking the developer is just trying to stem the cash outflow from late delivery payments by crashing the development into handover when some units are still unsnagged - yes really!

JOIN UP WITH US!!!

If any Torch owners want to join forces with the Point Owners Group please email pointowners@googlemail.com. RERA should take more notice if owners from both developments collate our collective issues over the same second rate developer. Just email the following details to pointowners@googlemail.com

Name:
Unit(s) in Torch:
Contact Number:
Email:
Major Concerns:

PS. - if anybody has any ideas for a generic email address for both developments please let us know.

yecabel

July 6th, 2009, 11:35 AM

thank you all for the great pictures.

i agree that some of the materials/designs are similar(and cheap) to those in the point. however, i am not that worried. the views from the torch are just amazing. you can change the finishings of your property but you can't change the views you get from it.

And from an investment point of view, whether you wonna sell it or rent it out, the location/views will help make your property stand out from the other thousands of potential ones.

now don't get me wrong, i am not suddenly praising select property, i still believe they have sold us 'on-time luxury' and are now delivering 'late average' but this, after MST, is the best plot in the entire marina.

mackie1964

July 6th, 2009, 11:43 AM

Thanks Mackie, now you have done with Dubai, I fancy Florida could be on the menu.

Yep and Crete (You can pick some real bargains) :cheers:

Dubai_Steve

July 6th, 2009, 03:30 PM

http://blogs.thenational.ae/crane_country/2009/07/construction-update-the-marina-torch.html

In partnership with construction photographer Imre Solt, this week we present the The Torch tower in the Dubai Marina.

http://blogs.thenational.ae/crane_country/ImreSoltDubaiPhotos10.jpg

Photo caption: Above - view from the 70th floor of The Torch of the Dubai Marina. Photo courtesy Imre Solt.

As with every project in Dubai, this project has had some difficulties because of the property slowdown. It was originally scheduled for completion last year. It is now making progress to complete later this year. Mr Solt, whose website you can view here (http://www.dubaiupdate.com/), took a trip to the 70th floor (of 80 84) and took some cool shots of the marina. He also photographed some of the interiors on the 7th floor.

http://blogs.thenational.ae/crane_country/ImreSoltDubaiPhotos25.jpg

MOAF

July 6th, 2009, 04:26 PM

Samantha Baker

July 7th, 2009, 06:11 PM

SGrCRAP

July 7th, 2009, 06:51 PM

I just had a very interesting conversation with RERA. I asked if they knew what would happen regarding refunds as Select have told us that it needs to approved by them. He told me that RERA do NOT need to approve refunds. He said that I should get a lawyer and go through the court. I said shouldn't I just service a termination notice and see what Select do and then go to court if necessary. He said the developer will not return money, will make all sorts of excuses and cause delays, and that it's better to get a lawyer now and to start the process - RERA will only approve it once the court has made a decision on it. What does anyone think?

Samantha,

Are you surprised? SG are masters at stalling any attempt to exit. Just make sure you don't get a Select Group credit note.

Apparently the current street value of bully's star prize - the SG 100k credit note - is.....errrr...... let me see.... .... F*** all. However, all is not lost as reportedly selected MacDonald's restaurants will in fact exchange it for a quarter cheese meal with medium cola. We may be homeless but at least we're not hungry......

Good luck with the legal route - please keep us all posted as TP owners are following a similar action regarding contractual Jackanory.

SGrCRAP

July 7th, 2009, 06:55 PM

PS Send you details to pointowners@googlemail.com - all hands to the RERA pump!

Saggy_Toad

July 7th, 2009, 07:33 PM

MOAF

July 7th, 2009, 08:24 PM

I'll be happy if all we have got to deal with is a few broken tiles and some dodgy painting. Its all stuff that can be sorted out very quickly and easily. All that matters now is that we get the units on time, rented out and some return on the investment. Projects of this magnitude are bound to have imperfect finishes. I'm just happy that the developers are still pushing forward.

Saggy_Toad:- I certainly would not be happy with the a few broken tiles & dodgy painting , I expect a "resonable" standard apartment delivered thats all ,I would like what i was promised when i bought the unit nothing more nothing less..

Dubai_Steve

July 7th, 2009, 08:41 PM

Saggy_Toad

July 7th, 2009, 09:46 PM

Saggy_Toad:- I certainly would not be happy with the a few broken tiles & dodgy painting , I expect a "resonable" standard apartment delivered thats all ,I would like what i was promised when i bought the unit nothing more nothing less..

I'm not saying that we should grin and except it...the things that have been listed are all minor and easily sorted and is certainly not worth getting upset about. Just look at Spain's property history....which would you prefer. Lets get the thing finished before we write it off

Mistermark

July 7th, 2009, 10:18 PM

So long as after snagging has been done, they deliver an apartment which is good enough to be rented long term with no work required then I would be happy.

For those unable to afford to complete and requiring a refund now due to late delivery you have absolutely no chance without instructing a lawyer and going through the courts.

I agree with you on the first point. Based on what we've seen of The Point, I think the chances are that they'll try to hand us a development with many of the communal areas and facilities unfinished and kitchens and bathrooms requiring replacement.

Personally I'm not in the position of being unable to complete due to late delivery - my wish for a refund has more to do with not wanting to give up two years of rental income. But I agree with you that the signs are that the developer is not about to honour the contract if it can avoid doing so.

I look at it this way: imagine if they'd told us, at the outset, that we'd have to refit the kitchens and bathrooms at our own expense, put up with unfinished communal areas, sign away many of our rights (if LPP customers), give the developer the right to appoint the managing agent for the first decade or so (due to them taking over the voting rights of LPP customers) and also sacrifice the first two years' rental income, would we have gone ahead?

And given that there's a clause in the SPA allowing us to get our money back, at a time when completed units of a known standard can be bought on the resale market for less, who wouldn't take that option - and use such tactics as are necessary to ensure they get it?

Rider

July 7th, 2009, 10:51 PM

Who is responsible for inspecting communal areas and putting together snagging lists on behalf of all investors?

Do all investors have to chip in equally for such a service?

Mistermark

July 7th, 2009, 11:13 PM

talks

July 7th, 2009, 11:42 PM

I think it'll be a while before we get to that point... chances are we'll all end up submitting our snagging points for communal areas, which may well overlap (like the tiles in the kitchens and bathrooms...).

Notice how I assume I'll still be saddled with my Torch units, despite having given notice on 1 July? Such is my confidence in the developer's willingness to honour the termination clause...

After sending termination notice by email on 1st July,I have a return email asking for the notice to be posted or faxed.

Find this ok,but I got a response which clearly is a good sign if anything.

Mistermark

July 8th, 2009, 09:16 AM

After sending termination notice by email on 1st July,I have a return email asking for the notice to be posted or faxed.

Find this ok,but I got a response which clearly is a good sign if anything.

Actually, that's a very good sign. In the past they might have waited until the end of the 20 business days then used you supposedly having served the notices in the wrong manner as the excuse for rejecting them.

Maybe, just maybe, we're going to get paid out?

Samantha Baker

July 8th, 2009, 10:55 AM

Actually, that's a very good sign. In the past they might have waited until the end of the 20 business days then used you supposedly having served the notices in the wrong manner as the excuse for rejecting them.

Maybe, just maybe, we're going to get paid out?

Mistermark, what do you think about what RERA told me yesterday about not having to approve refunds? Did I speak to someone who didn't know what he's talking about, or are Select lying about this? I am completely confused about the whole thing now after speaking to RERA and them telling me that the only way to do it is through the court. I'm thinking of contacting a lawyer in Dubai today and asking their advice. Personally I don't see the harm in submitting a termination notice, seeing what happens and whether they pay up, and if not then take it through the court. But RERA didn't seem to think that was a good way of going about it.

With regard to what you were saying about expecting to still have your apartments when Select refuse your termination - I just don't see how this is going to happen. I can see how you won't have your money back and they will string out making a refund with various excuses etc, but I don't see that they could just reject the notice outright and then you carry on with payments and keep the apartments as if nothing had happened.

SGrCRAP

July 8th, 2009, 11:16 AM

Mistermark

July 8th, 2009, 11:27 AM

Mistermark, what do you think about what RERA told me yesterday about not having to approve refunds? Did I speak to someone who didn't know what he's talking about, or are Select lying about this? I am completely confused about the whole thing now after speaking to RERA and them telling me that the only way to do it is through the court. I'm thinking of contacting a lawyer in Dubai today and asking their advice. Personally I don't see the harm in submitting a termination notice, seeing what happens and whether they pay up, and if not then take it through the court. But RERA didn't seem to think that was a good way of going about it.

With regard to what you were saying about expecting to still have your apartments when Select refuse your termination - I just don't see how this is going to happen. I can see how you won't have your money back and they will string out making a refund with various excuses etc, but I don't see that they could just reject the notice outright and then you carry on with payments and keep the apartments as if nothing had happened.

I've sent you a PM re this - would be interested in your reply.

If you don't want the apartments then I think there's no harm in sending termination notices, especially if you give yourself the right to rescind them if the developer doesn't pay up and the market improves.

The legal advice I've received to date suggests that the court system in Dubai is very slow and somewhat unpredictable in dealing with property matters, but I guess if there were a few of us in the same position we could consider it. There may be a shorter route to declaring a company insolvent when a debt can already be proven, and it could be that RERA might provide us with the evidence of this if we demonstrated to them that we'd served termination notices correctly and were entitled by the contract to do so, but the developer hadn't paid up. But that's a route to getting back x pence in the Pound, possibly less than the cost of the action, and is more a case of giving the developer a taste of his own medicine if we have to write off our investments than a route to recovering our money.

My preferred option is therefore to ensure that everything that happens is very visible to RERA and hope they will tell the developer to do the right thing.

Like you, I can foresee a situation in which no refunds are issued and the developer either makes excuses or puts its hands up and says they don't have the money. If this occurs, there will be no more obligation to make staged payments, except if the developer disputes the legitimacy of the termination notices, in which case we'd have to decide whether to make the payments as an insurance policy against being terminated by them and them keeping much of the money or holding our ground. I chose the first option after they rejected my February termination but will go the second route this time.

MANUTD

July 8th, 2009, 11:47 AM

Mistermark

July 8th, 2009, 12:33 PM

You wrote

"The legal advice I've received to date suggests that the court system in Dubai is very slow and somewhat unpredictable in dealing with property matters, but I guess if there were a few of us in the same position we could consider it. There may be a shorter route to declaring a company insolvent when a debt can already be proven, and it could be that RERA might provide us with the evidence of this if we demonstrated to them that we'd served termination notices correctly and were entitled by the contract to do so, but the developer hadn't paid up. But that's a route to getting back x pence in the Pound, possibly less than the cost of the action, and is more a case of giving the developer a taste of his own medicine if we have to write off our investments than a route to recovering our money."

MisterMark - from another case i am invloved with the information from lawyers is that DUBAI courts have 3500 outstanding property cases NOW !! (without the deluge they WIIL have) at a rate of 4 to 5 a day dealt with that's 4 years at least

Unfortunately we are stuck in DUBAI for a long time like it or not !!

Good luck with your refunds but you may struggle as you intimated

I can well believe what your lawyers told you. I've been informed that it would take at least two years to get a case heard, another six months for it to be decided and the same again, or more, to enforce judgement. Plus the likelihood is that the SPV set up for The Torch would be wound up within months of delivering the project and all assets distributed to the (unrecorded) shareholders. So it would be easier and no less effective simply to donate £50k to a lawyer and tell him or her to have fun spending it.

The best route is to get RERA to rule that the developer is in breach then take that through the legal system as an insolvency case. If the developer wants his business to remain in existence, and if he has the funds, he'll pay rather than risk it being wound up before delivery. But if he doesn't have the money, this won't help...

I know I got a lot of flack here previously by suggesting that the best solution was to go down the publicity route. Of course, the developer may issue refunds to those of us that want them. Just like pigs might fly. Assuming this doesn't happen, I'd be interested to know who else has terminated, or plans doing so, and whether they're up for joining with me in taking the developer down this route if they don't get their money.

Mistermark

July 8th, 2009, 12:38 PM

Morning Torch Gang,

I just got an email from a major lettings agency in Dubai - no names.

This is what they said.....

"I wanted to let all the owners know that the management team are asking that all tenants wanting to move in to an apartment on an LPP have to sign a separate tenancy contract involving the developer.

This has scared many tenants off already and I have lost really good tenants and great rents because of this contract.

May be the owners know this already but I just thought I would let them know"

So there you have it - the LPP is ruining the letting potential for owners who've signed the LPP - never mind the fact SG now own their units!

Get's better by the second!

This doesn't surprise me. It's a tenants' market in Dubai currently, with plenty of units to choose from. If many of the apartments in one project can only be rented if the tenant signs to say they can be evicted at any time, even if they've paid their rent in advance and up to date, if the landlord gets into arrears with the LPP or service charges, why would they want to live there?

As with the business about the developer holding owners' votes on matters such as service charges and managing agent appointment, I fear that these blights may also affect properties bought on the SPP. On the rental side, there's the risk that tenants will simply assume that SG projects have this condition attached to them, without realising it doesn't apply to the SPP ones. And on the voting front, I believe most units in The Torch and The Point are on LPP, so the developer will hold a majority say until the payment plans are finished, giving them the whip hand over SPP owners.

Samantha Baker

July 8th, 2009, 01:48 PM

Select quite often come on this site to defend themselves and tell us that they are a decent and honourable developer, so we shall see whether what they say is true in how they deal with the refund situation. They have also told us before that monies are held in escrow, so should not therefore tell us now that they don't have the money to pay refunds. We will really find out in the next few weeks how honourable they are. Select, I hope you live up to your word and prove people wrong who have doubted you!

Dubai_Steve

July 8th, 2009, 01:54 PM

Problem is if they pay up on time and the market still drops, 80% of people may want a refund and the project will be jeopardised. So I don't think they can be seen to be acting fast on this one.

Yousuf27

July 8th, 2009, 01:59 PM

Samantha Baker

July 8th, 2009, 02:13 PM

Mistermark

July 8th, 2009, 03:25 PM

Right; - come on guys. We've had a page of relative doom gloom, scaremongering - and yes OK possible a bit of reality, but can we get back to the positivity of the building side of things??

I had a very upbeat call from SG yesterday; - and I'm not so naive as to assume it was full of truth and reality, - but why is there such fear that this is a company with no money and about to go under. They have been ruthlessly efficient at collecting the money and have not been sidetracked or granted any major concessions on this. I reckon they are probably well placed to give the few that want it their money back and then resell the units. I'm convinced (with no real knowledge) that there aren't many going the refund route; - it's not likely to break the bank.

I did receive acknowledgement from SG (and this will be no comfort to Point owners right now) that they are "learners" regarding the handover routine and they are learning plenty at TP. It was also acknowledged that their pocedure has to be - and I was assured it will be - better when they hand over The Torch.

I can hear the cynics - who clearly know more than I do - scoffing, but that's OK. I reckon those who've asked for their money back may be surprised when they get it. They might even wonder if that's what they really wanted in due course.

I hope you're right. The reason I'm suspicious of them is that I know of a number of people, myself included, who've exercised their rights to terminate on Torch or Point agreements and have met with all manner of excuses, but none who has actually received a refund.

SG made an error of judgement letting people into The Point while the communal areas were still being finished, but the fact they were willing to show people apartments in the appalling state many were in does indicate to me some level of contempt for their customers. As does the infamous side letter.

Speaking personally, I would love to proceed with the purchase of my Torch apartments. If they were ready now, finished to a high standard and not subject to the side letter I'd be proud to own them. The building is on a good plot and the views from high floors are amazing.

If I get a refund I will probably make the developer an offer to buy back my units, but on very different terms than the first time around. Apart from anything else, the lion's share of the money will stay where I can see it until satisfactory handover...

bizzybonita

July 8th, 2009, 04:10 PM

Today

http://i26.tinypic.com/2rmskjq.jpg

Dubai_Steve

July 8th, 2009, 04:27 PM

Just a reminder why all Torch LPP owners should refuse to sign the 'extra' contract on handover if it will be the same as the Point:

Morning Point Gang,

I just got an email from a major lettings agency in Dubai - no names.

This is what they said.....

"I wanted to let all the owners know that the management team are asking that all tenants wanting to move in to an apartment on an LPP have to sign a separate tenancy contract involving the developer.

This has scared many tenants off already and I have lost really good tenants and great rents because of this contract.

May be the owners know this already but I just thought I would let them know"

So there you have it - the LPP is ruining your letting potential - the fact they own your asset is of course beside the point - pardon the punn.

Mistermark

July 8th, 2009, 04:48 PM

Just a reminder why all Torch LPP owners should refuse to sign the 'extra' contract on handover if it will be the same as the Point:

Plus they'd be signing away the rights of all owners, SPP buyers included, to determine who manages the building and what budgets they work to. They'd also be at risk of losing their properties if the developer became insolvent before the end of the payment plan.

I really feel for owners in The Point. If they sit on their hands, it'll come down to a question of who blinks first. The developer has their cash, so they're under no pressure. Will RERA intercede? I guess that's what they must be hoping...

Asti

July 9th, 2009, 01:16 AM

Just a reminder why all Torch LPP owners should refuse to sign the 'extra' contract on handover if it will be the same as the Point:

Quite right.

They cannot force you to sign any additional document that does not form part
of the original contract. If they refuse to hand over the keys unless
you do, then that is BLACKMAIL, pure and simple. An offence even in Dubai.

RERA needs to be made aware of what they are trying to do!

True Blue

July 9th, 2009, 10:51 AM

Quite right.

They cannot force you to sign any additional document that does not form part
of the original contract. If they refuse to hand over the keys unless
you do, then that is BLACKMAIL, pure and simple. An offence even in Dubai.

RERA needs to be made aware of what they are trying to do!

I heard of an investor a few years back who was refused his keys as he had not paid something trivial like his air con charges for 1 year in advance. He turned up at the building with his S&P agreement and all receipts for payment anf insisted on his keys. When they were not handed over he phoned the Police and presented his proof of ownership to them. The developer did not argue and handed over the keys.

Don't be affraid to involve the Police if you feel you are being blackmailed or are suffering a breach of the agreement on the developers side.

Mistermark

July 9th, 2009, 11:20 AM

I heard of an investor a few years back who was refused his keys as he had not paid something trivial like his air con charges for 1 year in advance. He turned up at the building with his S&P agreement and all receipts for payment anf insisted on his keys. When they were not handed over he phoned the Police and presented his proof of ownership to them. The developer did not argue and handed over the keys.

Don't be affraid to involve the Police if you feel you are being blackmailed or are suffering a breach of the agreement on the developers side.

This reminds me of the JBR service charge standoff a few months back. Didn't the developer's heavies try to block residents from accessing their properties? I believe they called the Police, who told the security guys to step aside or they'd arrest them. Soon after, the developer (partially) backed down.

Beppe786

July 9th, 2009, 11:59 AM

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3423/3702726212_347cc41339_b.jpg

agod

July 9th, 2009, 04:11 PM

Well I have also thought that, for a long time, there is an owner here at my place, who has been refused his keys, because he would not sign the very duff HOA agreement, and he's fully paid up, I said the same, surely its stealing, you pay, they deliver, if not call the cops, and tell them, also why worry about gettting RERA and land registry involved, its a clear cut case of stealing, so call them, (this is for Mackie, if you go into a shop and buy a Mars bar, you dont expect the shopkeeper to ask you to sign a disclaimer before he lets you eat it) my neighbour had a problem with some bespoke funiture, she had made, and to cut a long story short, she called the police, and they made him pay her back in full, there and then, he wanted to give her a cheque, when she had paid cash, no they said give it back the same way.

I think the police, are to us Europeans, seem to being used to our lot, letting most criminals get away with it, I mean the justice sysytem doesn't help them in that, and there is a lot of laws being relaxed, but not over here, much the same in the USA, you can call them for what we think are trivial, (parking the wrong way round) and they will lift the car, as they uphold the law in and shape or form.

Alan

Dubai_Steve

July 9th, 2009, 08:31 PM

(this is for Mackie, if you go into a shop and buy a Mars bar, you dont expect the shopkeeper to ask you to sign a disclaimer before he lets you eat it)

Say you signed a contract to buy a mars bar, paid 50% deposit for the mars bar up front with delivery in 4 weeks time, and the rest to be paid over 10 weeks from your hard earned pocket money.

After waiting 4 long weeks, you go to collect the delicious mars bar. The shopkeeper says sorry I decided you can't have it now unless you sign this disclaimer that anyone who wants to lick the mars bar must sign a contract to stop licking it immediately if you fail to make the next payment on the mars bar. What do you do?

agod

July 9th, 2009, 08:49 PM

Say you signed a contract to buy a mars bar, paid 50% deposit for the mars bar up front with delivery in 4 weeks time, and the rest to be paid over 10 weeks from your hard earned pocket money.

After waiting 4 long weeks, you go to collect the delicious mars bar. The shopkeeper says sorry I decided you can't have it now unless you sign this disclaimer that anyone who wants to lick the mars bar must sign a contract to stop licking it immediately if you fail to make the next payment on the mars bar. What do you do?

Exactly..............

mackie1964

July 9th, 2009, 08:58 PM

:lol::lol:

You could always go for a toblerone, 4 segments now and the other 6 later :banana::banana:

http://i28.tinypic.com/29dcxm1.jpg

Dubai_Steve

July 9th, 2009, 09:04 PM

Mistermark would probably get wind of the dodgy shopkeeper and demand his 50% back for the mars bar after waiting only 2 weeks, go buy a cheap curly wurly and start charging everyone 10p per minute for chewing it until he has enough cash to buy a king size mars bar.

The problem was that he did not realize that nobody wanted curly wurlies anymore and could not find anyone who wanted to chew it, they all wanted to lick a mars bar. So he went back to the dodgy shopkeeper and asked it he could buy the mars bar for 75% of the price in cash. The shopkeeper told him to get lost so he just kept his curly wurly and had a little chew on it every once in a while.

Dubai_Steve

July 9th, 2009, 09:33 PM

High Times eventually bought his king size mars bar from the dodgy shop keeper and gold plaited the wrapper to make it look really nice because people were starting to get fed up with mars bars and could not really afford the luxury of licking them anymore. So he planned to start charging the same price for a lick of his gold wrapped king size mars bar as everyone else's fun size mars bar. He eventually found someone who really wanted to lick his special mars bar for the price of a fun size. When they unwrapped it, to everyone's horror they found an extra large curly wurly wrapped all around it and could not even see the mars bar buried behind it in the darkness! The person no longer wanted to lick it and ran away. HT could not beleive it as he thought the worst that could happen would be that it might only be partly wrapped with a curly wurly.

Dubai_Steve

July 9th, 2009, 09:56 PM

ScoobuDubai bought the mars bar but then tried to sue the shop keeper when she realised that the toffee was not as deep as she was told it would be. She really liked soft warm toffee in her chocolate and was looking forward to it. She eventually sold her mars bar and bought a cadbury's caramel but soon realised that too much toffee is not a good thing as it does not leave enough space for chocolate

jeffers

July 9th, 2009, 10:31 PM

Then August came and the temperature rose to 52 degrees, everyones chocolate melted and most got worried about what they had purchased, this was a major meltdown that had not been seen before. After discussions at length on a chocoholics annonymous forum a collective decision was made on how to deal with the situation that everyone found themselves in..... to be continued.

mackie1964

July 9th, 2009, 10:50 PM

A Trueblue Mars Bar

http://i26.tinypic.com/2jba936.jpg

pinnacle1

July 9th, 2009, 11:47 PM

Then everyone got pissed off with mars bars and toblerones and bought an apartment at Torch. Apart from Mistermark, because HE JUST LOVES CURLY WURLYS

agod

July 9th, 2009, 11:54 PM

O my God, what have I done.................

True Blue

July 9th, 2009, 11:58 PM

Ten thousand posts later and still new TOPICS for discussion:)

Mackie:okay:

jeetha

July 10th, 2009, 12:31 AM

http://i32.tinypic.com/smrb46.jpg

Naz UK

July 10th, 2009, 01:13 AM

I sold my mars bar in the 90's when they were at their peak valuation :D

Dubai-Sail

July 10th, 2009, 05:41 AM

Yi canee beat a baurrd marrs barr, however, a think it'll work oot in the end. It's just that it'll take a couple of years longur. Injoy yur dinur!

Imre

July 10th, 2009, 12:40 PM

10/July/2009

The Torch

http://i30.tinypic.com/df82h.jpg

http://i31.tinypic.com/2lddixu.jpg

http://i27.tinypic.com/348hv9w.jpg

http://i26.tinypic.com/2cbib6.jpg

http://i25.tinypic.com/2yuen3k.jpg

Mistermark

July 10th, 2009, 01:33 PM

jeffers

July 10th, 2009, 01:43 PM

According to the construction schedule SG sent out at the end of January, isn't The Torch due to top out in five days' time (15 July)?

Imre's excellent images indicate that they've just built the 70th floor and are working on the 71st. I predict world records being set over the next 120 hours as they construct a further 13 floors and a large, illuminated rooftop structure.

Either that or SG were scamming us again when they said it'd top out in mid-July and complete at the end of Jan 2010...

LOL, Just been looking back myself and June's update schedule for top out was 15th Aug, still a record to do 13 floors in 4.5 weeks :lol: Bet the roof structure will suffer a major downscale, the building was sold to investors as The Torch due to the roof structure, if they do scale back will the tower just be called The, I wonder.....:dunno:

Cheers for the update Imre !

Mistermark

July 10th, 2009, 02:06 PM

LOL, Just been looking back myself and June's update schedule for top out was 15th Aug, still a record to do 13 floors in 4.5 weeks :lol: Bet the roof structure will suffer a major downscale, the building was sold to investors as The Torch due to the roof structure, if they do scale back will the tower just be called The, I wonder.....:dunno:

Cheers for the update Imre !

I hadn't spotted that - so the top-out date has been shifted back by a month since Jan, presumably without affecting the claimed handover date.

As you say, it'll be interesting to see what we end up with as a roof feature. Some tarpaulin, maybe?

FWIW

July 10th, 2009, 02:08 PM

^^I think sg/sp/ds will replace it with a mars bar! :lol:

jeffers

July 10th, 2009, 02:21 PM

^^I think sg/sp/ds will replace it with a mars bar! :lol:

Now someone clever has got to make up a picture and post that !!!!! :nuts:

Rider

July 10th, 2009, 03:00 PM

They will wait for the first 30 extractor fans to be thrown into a skip and cunningly recycle them into flame like roof feature

Mistermark

July 10th, 2009, 03:59 PM

We're entitled to an illuminated roof-top feature. If, due to general under-delivery and cost-cutting, SG doesn't provide one, how about making our own? Perhaps a Wicker Man-style structure topped by their Chairman, Rahail Aslam?

ramzy

July 10th, 2009, 07:02 PM

It will be downsized roof structure and project renamed to "The Candle" if it's not been burnt down.

Otherwise it will be Torched and be called "The Bonfire":lol:

Morrismarina

July 10th, 2009, 08:59 PM

One of my best friends has an engineering business on the industrial estate on the outskirts of Dubai towards Abu Dhabi and he has the contract to produce the aluminium frame for the LCD roof structure. So I can confirm it's definitely going ahead as planned. Says it will be stunning. :banana:

FWIW

July 10th, 2009, 11:58 PM

barry mcbarry

July 11th, 2009, 10:12 AM

I hadn't spotted that - so the top-out date has been shifted back by a month since Jan, presumably without affecting the claimed handover date.

As you say, it'll be interesting to see what we end up with as a roof feature. Some tarpaulin, maybe?

I'd like to see YOU as the roof feature, yapping away 24/7 in pseudo intellectual fashion about how no-one's going to trick you out of anything and how you've got all the bases covered blah blah blah:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Joannides

July 11th, 2009, 01:31 PM

was looking at the marina from Palm Jumeirah this morning, and it seems that the Torch is now the tallest block :-)

High Times

July 11th, 2009, 04:13 PM

Imre.

Any chance you can post a picture from your rooftop showing if The Torch is higher than Emirates Crown yet?

Must be very close now. A little piece of history in the making.

I enjoyed your Hungarian Vids bye the way. :lol: :cheers:

MANUTD

July 11th, 2009, 04:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistermark
I hadn't spotted that - so the top-out date has been shifted back by a month since Jan, presumably without affecting the claimed handover date.

As you say, it'll be interesting to see what we end up with as a roof feature. Some tarpaulin, maybe?

Quote
Originally posted by Barry Mcsharry
I'd like to see YOU as the roof feature, yapping away 24/7 in pseudo intellectual fashion about how no-one's going to trick you out of anything and how you've got all the bases covered blah blah blah

Your being as PC as ever I see Barry ?:lol::lol:

gerald.d

July 11th, 2009, 05:09 PM

Taken from the 34th floor of Seef 3.

Humid as hell up there at the moment, and the lens was misting over as fast as I could clear it, but these should be good enough...

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_hOl2e0230VA/Sliq1dJtG1I/AAAAAAAADzU/-wuGVgmIzp0/s800/IMG_2482.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_hOl2e0230VA/Sliq2b8RZEI/AAAAAAAADzY/a8X_r5zVsdU/s800/IMG_2483.jpg

malec

July 11th, 2009, 11:37 PM

Not the highest yet. Needs 4 more floors or so. :)

High Times

July 12th, 2009, 12:56 AM

^^

Spires shouldnt count. It's cheating. Anyone can stick a long arial on top of a building.

It makes a complete mockery out of constructing skyscrapers, (and awarding status to the tallest buildings). The highest habitable floor should count as the top of a building, (if there is to be any achievement value in skyscraper construction that is).

I'm surprised someone doesn't float an air balloon at 5,000 feet tied to a piece of carbon fibre cable and claim it is a penthouse.

yecabel

July 12th, 2009, 03:05 AM

Imre

July 12th, 2009, 08:52 AM

12/July/2009

Dubai Marina , tallest block

http://i28.tinypic.com/30c2lwk.jpg

http://i30.tinypic.com/fmic85.jpg

http://i25.tinypic.com/34ziuxf.jpg

http://i32.tinypic.com/2qs3yvs.jpg

High Times

July 12th, 2009, 09:49 AM

12/July/2009

Dubai Marina , tallest block

http://i30.tinypic.com/fmic85.jpg

Thanks Imre. :okay:

Thats construction floor 70 (which is residential floor 64) same floor height as Emirates Crown I believe.

Imre

July 12th, 2009, 09:54 AM

last floor of The Torch is higher than the last one of the Emirates Crown, 2-3 weeks and The Torch will be the highest U/C tower in Dubai Marina.

Ocean Heighs also coming up, maybe the same hight than the Princess Tower.

AltinD

July 12th, 2009, 11:50 AM

Dubai_Steve

July 12th, 2009, 12:19 PM

Its the tallest now if you count the cranes on top. :D

Mistermark

July 12th, 2009, 02:39 PM

Today I received a letter from SG, which I suspect is going out to all who have issued terminations under clause 15.3.

If anyone else has received this letter and wishes to discuss it, please PM me, including your email address. I suspect that it will become harder for the developer to back-track from this position once it's in the public domain, so I would counsel against summarising the content of their letter on an open forum such as this.

barry mcbarry

July 12th, 2009, 03:13 PM

Rider

July 12th, 2009, 03:19 PM